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project manager: and everybody's name and what your function is ? marketing: Yeah , that's a good plan . my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: Yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , I think , we already I guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as I can see . project manager: we get ins each of us will get instructions and we'll take it from there . That is it's gonna be individual work and then at the meeting we'll discuss what we have come up with . Does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? So that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . marketing: See if I r See if I remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: And remember you have to press so it works . project manager: And you're Francine , right ? Would you like s like just to see how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: Yes , I'm Francina . project manager: In marketing: Am I supposed to wipe off that or project manager: No , no . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: Here's the project finance which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . project manager: So these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . Now , the discussion I guess is does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: Oops . project manager: I exp I s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . project manager: And now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you didn't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? Would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: Yeah , I industrial designer: Yeah . Like the remote control which we use for T_V_ , it shou it should be used f for some other purpose also , like controlling the temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: So it should be a multi-functional gadget that would control all your household machines basically . marketing: We certainly can try to I agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: It should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . All the almost all the remotes project manager: Like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . project manager: so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . marketing: I think another thing that would help is if it beeps when you clap , project manager: Yes . project manager: That is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . project manager: And and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the T_V_ off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: industrial designer: project manager: Well or yeah or if it's really , if it's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: So some industrial designer: Yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: Yeah . user interface: Or a b marketing: so , so it's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: So if lost If lost signal with b throw signal , you know . industrial designer: Yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: I'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: Beep or it's a light , maybe it's a light . marketing: And do you think a good c c clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: Okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it's really hidden , in in other words if it's like in a dark spot , meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it's behind a plant , at that moment it's it's like , it's like , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: project manager: In in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: Okay so user interface: Yes . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and I I think voice or clapping it's not specific enough . I know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: project manager: but I think they only work to certain degree and marketing: But it could be someplace really obvious and you still wouldn't be able to find it . project manager: What with industrial designer: Yeah , of course , that didn't user interface: Then , in that case marketing: Well , because you're s because you're silly . marketing: it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Okay we have marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but I think we have some good good points to start with here . I think you all did you get notices on your computer for this ? Okay so well , you got the notice industrial designer: Me yeah . The working design , I guess that's the function I_D_ who is this ? The industrial designer That's you . project manager: industrial designer: working design , yeah , it's it's mainly technical-functional design . project manager: Then And then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: Yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . project manager: And the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . user interface: project manager: And , you know , specifi you you will get specific instructions for that . project manager: I think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions , I guess , you can user interface: Okay <doc-sep>project manager: You all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: It's project manager: Or you got the same message ? marketing: Yeah I I just saw it one minute ago . Yeah I received an email so I thought I I can't mail you so I thought I'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: Yeah pretty much . industrial designer: Huh ? marketing: ? project manager: industrial designer: What the marketing: Oh right . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: Yeah my computer is not functioning properly . user interface: marketing: project manager: Did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: Yeah yeah . industrial designer: I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was gonna do and then a couple of minutes before this I get my function you know the information that I need . This presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause I hadn't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Ts marketing: there is also was also some research on the most relevant and and and irrelevant f functions . marketing: if you can't control the the sound settings if you dislike a very loud bass or something , you you need to change that . industrial designer: By the way my T_V_ doesn't have an equ equaliser but marketing: We c we c Yeah w we can't project manager: Next generation does . teletext but we can skip that because I saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it's i should not be used any more in the future . industrial designer: By the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: I thought I read a project manager: Our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: Yeah ? project manager: And the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: Below ? Okay well user interface: But where did you get that information ? project manager: That's in a newsflash . marketing: that's that's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: Okay . Yeah well we can skip this part as well , because I thought I read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because they find it very interesting . and and also there's so not only the design of the bus buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . And I think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , nice design , which does not make the remote control in your room . marketing: It's it's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . So it's the people can say , well what's that , well that's my remote control , so it's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that project manager: Yeah . marketing: Yeah so but I I don't think that's that's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . industrial designer: user interface: How do I project manager: You pressed alt F_ four ? user interface: No no no . user interface: this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . marketing: Yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . industrial designer: And we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: And the speech recognition yeah . We have to to make them very easy so for just zapping around the channels you can just push one button . user interface: But if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an an advanced option . marketing: Yeah but the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . marketing: Yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . marketing: And the and the yeah screen menu to to to to do that , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: So it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , with a clear menu . project manager: So what does the screen do ? They said they needed it but what does it do ? What do they want with the screen ? user interface: For for the advanced functions I think . marketing: Yeah well it yeah it didn't project manager: So but what did the marketing marketing: it didn't say what they want to do with the screen . marketing: Well I , my guess is it's it's pretty handy for advanced advanced functions . user interface: the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . marketing: Well you can improvise right ? project manager: which one is it ? Technical functions ? industrial designer: Yeah a little bit . user interface: project manager: You didn't put it in ? Or industrial designer: I have no idea . marketing: So we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . So I was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about remote controls . industrial designer: so I didn't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . industrial designer: I was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and I was supposed to do it like this . But yeah then the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that I had to follow , so I was trying to organise them for myself . Mean you press a button the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: And then through a transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the T_V_ project manager: Yeah decoder . industrial designer: I dunno if I'm too slow for this stuff , but project manager: Work harder . marketing: user interface: Okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . for those that didn't see yet the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for T_V_ . it should be designed for a use g group below forty , but I don't think it's w wrong if we can target the current customer group as well . And we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let's see what was it , the target group . project manager: Yeah so I think it's easy but marketing: I guess that's that's the tar yeah or male and female user interface: But it's it's also for children or just project manager: Yeah it's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . marketing: Sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . marketing: How do you mean ? project manager: So is it from sixteen to forty ? Is it from twenty to forty ? Is it from thirty ? marketing: sixteen to forty . user interface: And if we have a larger public we have yeah more options to to sell our product . industrial designer: Yeah so what we might wanna do is yeah cust I have customised the screen functions , if you know what . industrial designer: The younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . user interface: Yeah that's that's why I wanted to to make yeah two different yeah groups of functions . The the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: But all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: Na I w I should put the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: Yeah . So is you should have a menu for all the the functions you don't use regular and which are marketing: you can make a if you make a drawing . project manager: Yeah we get the marketing: Yeah well , this is basically it's industrial designer: The remote ? project manager: The remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? well usually the power button is on top I guess . user interface: Yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . So it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your thumb , also reach the middle . marketing: Okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . marketing: Okay for example if you put the screen here , it's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: You want the normal piece of paper ? And you have a pen ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah ? marketing: Like if you have like ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: marketing: So you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume project manager: And left to right . I thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . project manager: Yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: And you you have industrial designer: And marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . marketing: Then okay to confirm , and then on on each on each screen there's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . user interface: And do we need a a logo on our remote control , or marketing: That's more your your department to to to project manager: Yeah . But it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: On the left top yeah . Yeah the position of the screen is also more essential than we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . marketing: But Yeah so it should be if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . This would be industrial designer: Why did we wanna put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i project manager: No that's not s sure so industrial designer: Okay . marketing: but it's user interface: Yeah may maybe because you're industrial designer: Because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: Yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you're going to use the advanced option , you're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: But most most of the times if a if if a T_V_'s on standby people just press a channel to put it on . project manager: Yeah but then it's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: But if you if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: Yeah okay . Can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: Yeah it doesn't matter that much . So but the screen is on top ? Which functions did we have left ? this is basically numbers , volume , channel up and down . project manager: So maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and and image options right ? project manager: Yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: Like bass marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah user interface: Yeah it it's just a remote control so project manager: and they're industrial designer: Yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: Coffee ? marketing: yeah sound and then within sound I guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: Yes please . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: Yeah isn't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you're watching . industrial designer: And yeah in the functionality of the user interface: Television itself industrial designer: no no of the remote do do we want the buttons to make sound when you press them ? As a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: . marketing: most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: We we could make an option for it , but you can disable s industrial designer: Under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . marketing: Yeah but people don't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it's very hard to project manager: . project manager: And the others were in your presentation right ? So I can just copy those ? marketing: Well yeah well I guess that these were the only ones , I guess . project manager: Yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , according to the old principle . project manager: And the L_C_D_ options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared decoder yeah . marketing: Yeah with the chip and then project manager: So you You have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? So you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your T_V_ . project manager: Yeah so I've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: Yeah , autoseek . project manager: name a channel , or marketing: Well most T_V_s automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . marketing: It only has to match the the channel frequency on your T_V_ , with with the with the position on your T_V_ and and so your remote . Yeah but can you also say I want f Veronica on the channel number five or industrial designer: Help . How do you call that ? marketing: Yeah how do you call that ? ? Wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . marketing: Just browse through it and then in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . other functions ? marketing: So you most of the time if you if you swap it S let's say for example you have R_T_L_ five on on channel five . And Veronica on channel eight and you want to move Veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous the previous one . project manager: That's you're industrial designer: He only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: Yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: And how user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: And the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as I believe . project manager: marketing: Or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? To programme the channels ? project manager: No I don't think so . project manager: No that's the marketing: you you current channel and then then it just says , on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it's it's saved . It's easier , it's it's it's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: The User Interface Designer can design a menu for all these function I put them on the marketing: Yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: On the yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . marketing: So project manager: So you design the basic function menu for the L_C_D_ screen ? I think marketing: And and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th I think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: The the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and I think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the screen itself on the marketing: . industrial designer: I have to know what it has to do , so if you wanna you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , I have to integrate that in the design . user interface: But do I have to to to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? Or project manager: Yeah . user interface: Yeah ? I I'm going to make project manager: I think i that's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: Yeah we have to kind of work together . industrial designer: If if I make the the the yeah the menu like , I have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: But we're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . Y you you are going to make a list of what functions are are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: Yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: So some menus . marketing: So it's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a Nokia or like that . marketing: To go one step back you it's only two extra buttons , user interface: Yeah . W we marketing: but if it if it's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: I think we have to to group , to make two groups . the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah but they're incorporated ? Up and down is user interface: Yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: Yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that's that's not project manager: Smart ? user interface: yeah if you're if you're z zapping with your yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: And and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: Put it on top . user interface: Yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . But we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: Well user interface: F oh yeah . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: industrial designer: I think you should . So we have a a menu button and a s project manager: And to , okay and back , also . Both the L_C_D_ marketing: Should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: Yeah I'm I'm not s clear about the the extra two buttons . user interface: Okay so that that's not Yeah that Those are project manager: Those are both both user interface: multifunctional . industrial designer: Hey is it interesting for users if we put LED lights under the buttons ? So that if you press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . project manager: Light marketing: Yeah that's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . project manager: marketing: So project manager: Anything else ? marketing: Those buttons are are lit up . Should we use those two ? Them ? Or only this to to scroll ? project manager: I've marketing: And then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? Oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: Volume . industrial designer: Yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . user interface: No industrial designer: The pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: Yeah okay go ahead . marketing: Yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , is if you're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you're not already at your choice . user interface: Yeah the with with the the channel and the volume yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and I have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . user interface: But do we have to write to write down the our stuff now ? Or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: Okay . project manager: marketing: project manager: I think you can put the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'Kay . marketing: Aye Y you saved it ? Does it save automatically in the project folder ? Or project manager: Yeah . It's it's just my own map so I put everything into the project manager: Yeah yeah yeah . user interface: But you got some extra information project manager: Yeah that's in the functional design folder . marketing: industrial designer: So first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: Yeah <doc-sep> so first of all , just to kind of make sure that we all know each other , marketing: marketing: And I'm Andrew and I'm our marketing user interface: I'm Craig and I'm User Interface . so we're designing a new remote control and Oh I have to record who's here actually . So that's David , Andrew and Craig , isn't it ? And you all arrived on time . project manager: Is that what everybody got ? industrial designer: Did you get the same thing ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: marketing: charac favourite characteristics of it ? Is that right ? project manager: Yeah . marketing: right , well basically high priority for any animal for me is that they be willing to take a lot of physical affection from their family . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Then they're small cute and furry , and when planet of the apes becomes real , I'm gonna be up there with them . project manager: You can take as long over this as you like , because we haven't got an awful lot to discuss . industrial designer: project manager: Ok oh we do we do user interface: project manager: Don't feel like you're in a rush , anyway . , well anyway , I don't know , it's just the first animal I can think off the top of my head . project manager: Do you ? user interface: project manager: Oh that's very good of you . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: he's very friendly and cheery and always pleased to see you , and very kind of affectionate and and he's quite quite wee as well so you know he can doesn't take up too much space . marketing: project manager: and And he does a funny thing where he chases his tail as well , industrial designer: project manager: which is quite amusing , so marketing: Is he aware that th it's his own cha tail he's chasing ? project manager: It is . He only does it after he's had his dinner marketing: project manager: and he'll just all of a sudden just get up and start chasing his tail 'round the living room . project manager: Yeah , so marketing: Probably when he was little he got lots of attention for doing it and has forever been conditioned . so according to the brief we're gonna be selling this remote control for twenty five Euro , and we're aiming to make fifty million Euro . And we don't want it to cost any more than twelve fifty Euros , so fifty percent of the selling price . project manager: because it's probably up to the the the retailer to sell it for whatever price they want . project manager: do you think the fact that it's going to be sold internationally will have a bearing on how we design it at all ? marketing: Yes . marketing: Well right away I'm wondering if there's th th , like with D_V_D_ players , if there are zones . industrial designer: It does make sense from maybe the design point of view 'cause you have more complicated characters like European languages , then you need more buttons . I'm thinking the price might might appeal to a certain market in one region , whereas in another it'll be different , so project manager: What , just like in terms of like the wealth of the country ? marketing: Just a chara just a characteristic of the project manager: Like how much money people have to spend on things like ? marketing: Just Or just like , basic product podi positioning , the twenty five Euro remote control might be a big hit in London , might not be such a big hit in Greece , who knows , project manager: Aye , I see what you mean , yeah . marketing: Right away I'm making some kind of assumptions about what what information we're given here , project manager: . marketing: thinking , 'kay trendy probably means something other than just basic , project manager: Yeah . so I'm wondering right away , is selling twenty five Euros , is that sort of the thi is this gonna to be like the premium product kinda thing or project manager: Yeah , yeah . project manager: Well twenty five Euro , that's that's about like eighteen pounds or something , isn't it ? Or no , is it as much as that ? marketing: project manager: I dunno , I've never bought a remote control , so I don't know how how good a remote control that would get you . project manager: But yeah , I suppose it has to look kind of cool and gimmicky . well d Does anybody have anything to add to to the finance issue at all ? Thin marketing: Do we have any other background information on like how that compares to other project manager: No , actually . That would be useful , though , marketing: other project manager: wouldn't it , if you knew like what your money would get you now . Yeah , interesting thing about discussing production of a remote control for me is that l as you point out , I just don't think of remote controls as somethin something people consciously assess in their purchasing habits . marketing: Like so sort of like how do you I one one way of looking at it would be , well the people producing television sets , maybe they have to buy remote controls . Or another way is maybe people who have T_V_ sets are really fed up with their remote control and they really want a better one or something . user interface: I know My parents went out and bought remote controls because they got fed up of having four or five different remote controls for each things the house . marketing: Okay so Right , so in function one of the priorities might be to combine as many uses project manager: Yeah . Right , so do you think that should be like a main design aim of our remote control d you know , marketing: I think so . project manager: do your your satellite and your regular telly and your V_C_R_ and everything ? marketing: Yeah , yeah . Well like , maybe what we could use is a sort of like a example of a successful other piece technology is palm palm pilots . They're gone from being just like little sort of scribble boards to cameras , M_P_ three players , telephones , project manager: So , like , I wonder if we might add something new to the to the remote control market , project manager: Yeah . marketing: such as the lighting in your house , or project manager: Or even like , you know , notes about what you wanna watch . Like you might put in there oh I want to watch such and such and look a marketing: Yeah , yeah . Like , p personally for me , at home I've I've combined the the audio video of my television set and my D_V_D_ player and my C_D_ player . marketing: So it's sort of ironic that that then they're in there you know , the sound and everything it's just one system . project manager: okay , I'd wel we're gonna have to wrap up pretty quickly in the next couple of minutes . so anything else anybody wants to add about what they don't like about remote controls they've used , what they would really like to be part of this new one at all ? industrial designer: And you keep losing them . industrial designer: it's usually quite small , or when you want it right , it slipped behind the couch marketing: project manager: W You get those ones where you can , if you like , whistle or make a really high pitched noise they beep . project manager: There is that something we'd want to include , do you think ? marketing: project manager: Dunno . Actually had a cable between it and the T_V_ project manager: marketing: and big like buttons that sort of like , like on a blender or something . marketing: And , you know , when I think about what they are now , it's better , but actually it's still kind of , I dunno , like a massive junky thing on the table . marketing: 'Cause it could b it could it could be that f it could be that functionally that doesn't make it any better , but that just the appeal of of not having project manager: It looks better . marketing: You know , these days there's a r pe things in people's homes are becoming more and more like chic , you know . project manager: Right , well so just to wrap up the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes . so inbetween now and then , as the industrial designer , you're gonna be working on you know the actual working design of it industrial designer: Yep . for user interface , technical functions , I guess that's you know like what we've been talking about , what it'll actually do . and marketing executive , you'll be just thinking about what it actually what , you know , what requirements it has to has to fulfil and you'll all get instructions emailed to you , I guess . marketing: project manager: Yeah , so it's th the functional design stage is next , I guess . Before we wrap up , just to make sure we're all on the same page here , project manager: marketing: do we We were given sort of an example of a coffee machine or something , project manager: -huh , yeah . marketing: right ? Well , are we at ma right now on the assumption that our television remote control may have features which go beyond the television ? Or are we keeping sort of like a a design commitment to television features ? project manager: Th Okay , well just very quickly marketing: I I don't know . project manager: you probably want some kind of unique selling point of it , so , you know marketing: Okay . project manager: Right , okay , we'll that's that's the end of the meeting , then <doc-sep>Let's shall we all introduce ourselves ? marketing: Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the Marketing Expert . , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ? project manager: I think we'll get around to that , yeah . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: so . And to do this , we have to there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . user interface: So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ? project manager: marketing: I think both . project manager: Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? industrial designer: user interface: I gotta think about it for a second like . Does it have to be functional , trendy and user friendly ? project manager: I don't think so . user interface: Yeah , it's industrial designer: project manager: 'S like playing Pictionary . project manager: So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? industrial designer: user interface: I like its tail . industrial designer: user interface: no , I think dolphins are really I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like project manager: They're graceful . user interface: Yeah they're sleek industrial designer: user interface: and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing . He's a I dunno they're I think it's cool the the the interaction that or the th things that the reasons people seem to like you know you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . project manager: I dunno if the the industrial designer: I think the pen is running out of marketing: Well I had the cat as well , but I've got a spare one . I don't really know how the legs go , industrial designer: project manager: That's very good . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country . user interface: Sorry can you just say that what's the what are our price goals again ? project manager: selling price is twenty five Euro . marketing: How many should we sell then ? , a lot , project manager: Anyone a mathematician ? marketing: two two two million , two mi no , more f four million . And it industrial designer: marketing: well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million . , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . so do we have any initial ideas for how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have . marketing: I think one thing is that it should be easy to find industrial designer: user interface: I was thinking that too . user interface: I think we should design something that has like a so you can like somehow like you you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button , industrial designer: user interface: I've always wanted that , project manager: Yeah . user interface: so like you can push a button on your T_V_ marketing: Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah . user interface: Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control . marketing: In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound user interface: Yeah . marketing: I don't know if it's expensive maybe to user interface: I don't yeah it but like marketing: Maybe call is enough . user interface: just like your phone even just has so like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno marketing: Yeah yeah yeah . project manager: What if it had something like just like a magnet on the back of it and you could j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . user interface: Yeah , project manager: 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so user interface: industrial designer: Well that's why it's always in the couch . marketing: project manager: user interface: I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and project manager: Yeah . marketing: But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . project manager: Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ? marketing: And the other thing is user interface: Bigger . marketing: Not well it needs to be sort of project manager: Like Hand hand held size , yeah . I don't think you need a project manager: Not not huge , but industrial designer: marketing: But definitely not well I don't know . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: That would be really I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop . , oh we just user interface: I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons , industrial designer: Yeah , I agree . user interface: I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . project manager: You what if may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . it just seems like project manager: So you could like like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can the way you do it on your radio is that you user interface: yeah . project manager: s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s marketing: But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen . marketing: Because , I don't know if it's I think it's e expensive , if you have if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote , project manager: Yeah . Something like not it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do , project manager: Yeah . user interface: Or like you h you see those you know people I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those these things that at their house you know their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that and it's like a hand held like turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if it must be it would probably marketing: Yeah . user interface: marketing: Or some it i we can find out probably on the internet how much it's project manager: Yeah . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water industrial designer: marketing: What was the word ? user interface: Furry . project manager: Oh I was just user interface: marketing: No but it's I thought , ah , spot on . industrial designer: marketing: Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel , project manager: Yeah . project manager: Maybe just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your user interface: Yeah . We should probably start wrapping up , we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ , industrial designer: Yeah I think so . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and that sort of thing . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w user interface: So technical function . user interface: What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what project manager: I guess you'd have to find out . user interface: It does but it I just don't really industrial designer: I wrote down what mine were . marketing: Be a medium between you and the telly I think , user interface: Yeah , yeah . project manager: And the M_E_ , what does that stand for ? M industrial designer: Marketing <doc-sep>project manager: l so let's wait it marketing: project manager: we have we have must , user interface: Some creative project manager: we must have some time for that because it will be yeah , quite a lot of mathematics . project manager: And after that , an evaluation of the process how we how we have done it here with the SMARTboard , with the with our laptops , with the all all this . So , we've worked out this concepts , how to how to hold it , where to put the buttons and and stuff . And , well , we began with with a form of shape , that is is easy to hold w in one hand , left or right handed . industrial designer: user interface: So , we made i it a little bit less thick and it has some ar artistic meaning . project manager: user interface: well , during the meeting I showed you the concept of placing the buttons on top , usable with your thumb , and the menu structure , if necessary , with your other hand , so it's just gonna hold it easily . project manager: user interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your other hand too , of course . industrial designer: Yeah , well , and as you saw , we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ screen . Well , these would be the main buttons , h you could change them later on in your own profile if you want to . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: This is for the added effect of well y youth and dynamic . project manager: industrial designer: Well , what we figured is we'll show you a picture later on you have more b a better idea after that . industrial designer: And , in these bumps you could actually put some electronics that would you can make a more thinner design , marketing: Yeah . Oh , we added that this can be held with your hands for this maximum is om yeah , one and a half centimetres . S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some have some wires underneath it to make it as thin as possible in the middle for good grip . industrial designer: Yeah , f , as colours , do you do you have the picture in user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: And and for colours , we we figured starting with basic colours like white or metallic grey . It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable , industrial designer: so it d user interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple , industrial designer: Or blue or whatever . user interface: but when the o older people go in the shop and they see an orange remote control , it would be less appealing than a white one . user interface: they think , ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip marketing: . Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover , so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop . user interface: Well , I think a cover is necessary , 'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen . user interface: So , there must be some cheap standard cover , maybe white or something , marketing: . user interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy , so we can make extra money . project manager: Yeah , but you d you mustn't forget that our target aim is younger people . project manager: we had decided to put some flashy fruity colours in it , and in the survey from Milan and Paris it it came out that the d the older people are more willing to to spend money on extra features . So I think it will be a better idea to have some flashy fruity colours as as a standard , user interface: Okay . project manager: and for the people who really want a more sophisticated , more traditional look , they're willing to pay that . project manager: So , maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard . user interface: Well yeah , a colour of a wood style , a white c and a couple of h hip fruity colours . user interface: And lea l delivered standard with a fruity colour , but not too not too much . industrial designer: This isn't this isn't too much , is it ? user interface: Yeah , okay . project manager: Well , the buttons don't have to be all all of industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: I marketing: Yeah , except for the buttons it's it could be a standard model . project manager: Okay , marketing: Okay ? project manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the marketing: We're going to vote . industrial designer: Why ? marketing: Most true ? industrial designer: Yeah , it's not just designed for people under the age of forty . marketing: so industrial designer: So marketing: so a o one is appropriate ? user interface: No no , a little more in the middle . industrial designer: Yeah , two or three , because it's not just the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty . user interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty , but also appealing to marketing: Three . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , acco according to us , it's one ? Or project manager: Yeah . user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: Yeah , I I think user interface: it's the marketing angle on television . marketing: Yeah , user interface: We have a wonderful marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be very positive and enthusiastic about your own product . marketing: False ? user interface: And volume is impo marketing: And volume ? project manager: Volume is true . marketing: Big and clear ? project manager: industrial designer: Yeah , the they are big and clear . user interface: Otherwise , the people who read this are gonna think we have no teletext button . marketing: It's it's not industrial designer: So , it's w yeah , it it it marketing: yeah , it industrial designer: it isn't entirely unclear , marketing: J industrial designer: but So , I wouldn't give it a seven . industrial designer: What do you think , Mister Project Manager ? marketing: Yeah , it's it's yeah . user interface: and marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , it has these all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape . industrial designer: So , if you so if you have trouble finding it user interface: But , it it's not making any sound , marketing: user interface: have we deciding ? marketing: Oh , okay , user interface: So marketing: but If you put your normal remote control under your bed , or you throw this remote control under your bed , is it better findable ? user interface: It'll make a difference . marketing: Four ? user interface: marketing: Fi project manager: So , if it's in the dark place , you still see it glowing . It's it's it doesn't really make a lot of industrial designer: Well , then then I'll go for four . project manager: Ah , you must see it as , w according to the the other remote controls , there may be there in your T_V_ room , this one will stand out , I think . marketing: Yeah , project manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about . marketing: it it's user interface: If your fifteen remotes in a drawer , you find it , yeah ? project manager: If it if this lying on your couch , you're you're you think what's that for kinda orange thing . industrial designer: marketing: Like , no not not seeing it , but lost it in the house or something . industrial designer: Well , if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere , then you'd recognise it as , whoa , that is strange . user interface: Yeah , mostly when you lose your remote control , it it's under your marketing: Yeah , okay . user interface: I would call choose two , industrial designer: user interface: 'cause we decided not to make two f fresh colours , as it would not . marketing: Easy to use ? project manager: Yeah , can it be zero ? industrial designer: Well , I don yeah , it is kind of marketing: Top easy to use ? industrial designer: It marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use user interface: No , you can do two , because industrial designer: No . marketing: Yeah , but the most easy to use is just with one button user interface: But It is r it is rather easy to use , because you have the primary buttons always visible . project manager: marketing: on t Yeah , okay , but easy n not not the most easy to use , I think . project manager: What's the time ? We also have to do the evaluation , the production costs and stuff . project manager: You haven't seen a more innovative thing in Paris ? marketing: The remote control has m remova removable from Multilux . But , maybe make it two , because the games are in a sub-menu and not it's not an entire game . Yeah , if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro , then we can ra move on to the project evaluation , as we have experienced it . We have to fil , want to do it in and see if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro . project manager: Sample sensor sample speaker ? user interface: No , the advanced chip is industrial designer: No . project manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then and then user interface: You no . user interface: Yeah , marketing: Yes , user interface: 'cause the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the the back of the marketing: three . Then we'll see we'll we'll see wha how much we are over budget . user interface: Yeah , if if you're honest , we'll type one , special colour . But yeah , it's it's it user interface: j maybe we'll finish the the list first and then look back , aye ? marketing: That doesn't account for this . So , what's the thing we can change ? user interface: So industrial designer: But user interface: No . industrial designer: Well , other case , we can make it single-curved or uncurved . project manager: The kinetic thing , can we just skip it , user interface: Just cut off the kine yeah . marketing: What do you think about putting a battery in it , but also selling like the covers , a docking station project manager: Yeah . user interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway , just you s you have to recharge them manual . industrial designer: Okay , project manager: So industrial designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved . project manager: b but i but the single-curved is just oh user interface: Yeah , so we have to bake the ba back flat , and then industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: No , it's it's just one curve and not a back curved I think . Or industrial designer: It's just yeah well , the single-curve that project manager: Oh , okay , okay . industrial designer: project manager: And then w yeah , and then we could have it , but it's its' well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look . marketing: Yeah , user interface: Yeah , but what else do we have to cut out ? No advanced chip , that's a little bit of problem . project manager: So , user interface: Although , can we make it with a regular chip ? project manager: okay , a little less conversation . marketing: Hey , those ar arcs , why are there for ? project manager: Sorry ? marketing: The blue blue project manager: Fill in Just a user interface: Explanation . user interface: Yeah , but does it fit with our design ? project manager: well , the only thing that don't user interface: Do we have to u adapt it ? It's single-curves . user interface: W Could we just make the bubbles cut off the back , and then we're has industrial designer: Yeah , we just make it flat . industrial designer: But , you do l marketing: But , wha 'Kay , look , what is the If you make it double-curved , it costs one Euro more . marketing: fun function more like industrial designer: Worth , does it have added worth ? user interface: there's an a a athe aesthetic value , but not functionality . industrial designer: R if you promote a kinetic I kinetic remote control , that would b sell better than an a normal remote control . industrial designer: No , well , y , y you can go into your neighbour and tell him , ha , my k remote control is kinetic . marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks ? user interface: Yeah , but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile . project manager: Yeah ? Who because if you want to go to kinetic , you're you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat , marketing: project manager: and I think now it's it's more of a compromise user interface: Yeah . project manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve , then it's then it's marketing: user interface: Yeah , just one big curve . industrial designer: That's one of the functionability project manager: Okay , well , considering we have marketing: Ah no , we have to do all those hours again . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: Well , we were above , so we did a little redesign marketing: Yeah . Were there room for was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings ? user interface: marketing: . marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there , and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff . industrial designer: Well , I th I think you two , especially you and and Daniel , you d you you both had the less creative roles in the project . industrial designer: 'Cause I think m user interface: We could just sign up an remote if we liked . industrial designer: I think Jeroen and I , we had a more design we could have more we had more room for creativity than than you two . Cra industrial designer: Nah , the leadership wasn't crappy , it was the leader that was crappy . user interface: Yeah , example of crappy leadershi marketing: No , leadership was user interface: Okay , yeah . marketing: you could have but , it was your first , no no disrespect or something , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: but you could have structure it a l little bit more . marketing: So like , I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting , and user interface: You could of said , shut up you fool . marketing: But project manager: I was a I was also very unhappy , very unsatisfied about the marketing: About me . industrial designer: project manager: So , I hope the the the other meetings industrial designer: Try to learn from your mistake . project manager: get better and I think the the last two meetings also we we reached some good decisions about talk marketing: No , it you did better . project manager: teamwork ? Well , maybe that's only Yeah well , it's for us , because user interface: Well , we work together on a project , but everybody has his own task . user interface: So , it is a little bit marketing: project manager: But , really teamwork were you two user interface: Yeah . project manager: Yeah ? industrial designer: It's it's just user interface: Stupid stupid pen , but project manager: No hard feelings . industrial designer: user interface: in in writing letters , of course , yeah ? Yeah , normally , this the w Block letter sign it , yeah ? project manager: O Just user interface: Just just write your name in in one line . project manager: You can be you can go quicker , 'cause then it it won't notice it . project manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard , so I think that's the that's the main issue . marketing: But , a and the first two meetings I brought it with me , but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting . industrial designer: No , it doesn't have that much added value to the project manager: Huh . As as I said a m a c few moments ago , it I would like , myself , to write with a normal pen , because must Yeah , it's almost the same concept , but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner . user interface: I it's the same concept as the pen , where you f have to download the software or s very slow . project manager: And the SMARTboard is useful , but the the pen is I not user-friendly , I think . project manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things , marketing: user interface: Yeah , and it's it's not very precise . project manager: and that's the user interface: We're trying to m to marketing: Yeah , like when you do this . user interface: Yeah , it may Yeah , and tr try to wri write your name in a in a normal size , yeah . project manager: Yeah , but that's not th the the you when you at a foreign audience , you b don't gonna wr write small . user interface: No , a as you saw on on this drawing , just open open this one or that one . It's th it it Yeah , we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons , it's almost impossible to get clear when you're project manager: Yeah . New ideas ? user interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas ? project manager: Well , the the idea of the touch-screen is marketing: Do you ? user interface: Yeah , project manager: marketing: Go on . project manager: I'm just user interface: New ideas about the working of this software , about about the project , about the remote controls or marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: But the new ideas found for wi with working with this software ? user interface: Not really , just they have to improve it . project manager: Not really , yeah ? user interface: the concept is okay , project manager: Yeah , I think user interface: but it has to be quicker . , it is still opening my programme , n almo almost my entire computer is locked up during the process project manager: Yeah . People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on a page and not download it and save it , and project manager: Yeah . user interface: 'Cause when you use a pen , you can just draw like you d draw normally , project manager: Yeah . Or at least when you you don't have to adapt to the technology , just you can write in the way you normally write . user interface: Nah , okay , I I it's my opinion that I marketing: But I think this is better than regular flip-overs , but user interface: Yeah , it's can be saved easier . user interface: But if you're in normal flip-over you a lot of people write text . user interface: And writing text , yeah , you've gotta really do your best to write some project manager: Yeah , and and maybe some functions for circle or a square . industrial designer: Mean marketing: Yeah , but insert image isn't available ? user interface: 'Cause then you could marketing: Here . project manager: But not the the the the predefined squares I think user interface: So you can marketing: Hyperlink ? Hey , what if you do like hyperlink ? user interface: With W_W_ dot Google dot com . user interface: There's one way to project manager: Is it marketing: 'Kay , double-click it . project manager: So you have user interface: Well , it's project manager: as you saw , you have a little Oh , you can Yeah , thank you . So there the the the functionality is there , but it's not it's not ideal , user interface: But project manager: and it's it's very user interface: . project manager: if you if you have thirty , forty minutes for this kind of things , user interface: Yeah . project manager: and we are now with four people , user interface: And that's m project manager: but it well , imagine you are here you're with the ten people and everyone user interface: That's mostly the case , from the over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case , project manager: Yeah . user interface: and if you have to do all this kind project manager: Two minutes of drawing , yeah . user interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there , just use a flip-board . marketing: What I really miss also is industrial designer: project manager: marketing: is a d is a turtle industrial designer: marketing: is a decision decision system like With the evaluation , you have to Polls like , what do you want , a one , a two , project manager: Yeah yeah . marketing: maybe a a l a little application like give your own number and click one two three four five six seven . project manager: Yeah , just like he said with the with the a screen which you can write , also a kind of voting mechanism . industrial designer: But , problem is , well you can't discuss anything well you you ca you can , but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now . industrial designer: But , well I we said , no I w th think two , because this and this , and then you can react on it . industrial designer: But if you you put a three on it , just figure well , everybody knows what I'm knowing , so they'll all just put a two on . industrial designer: But then , I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest discussing it , that isn't that bad idea , actually . marketing: That's it ? project manager: well , just about , user interface: When are w industrial designer: project manager: because marketing: user interface: When are we going to produce it ? project manager: Yeah , tomorrow ? , the costs are within the budget . project manager: But , before we going to celebrate , I have a little question which you can't answer , marketing: Yeah . You might thinking what the hell was he doing marketing: What is an end report ? project manager: about all the meetings , what we have decided , a r r a report of this day . project manager: that must be made , but I don't know , here is standing whoa , we can celebrate now , but the end report is marketing: Oh , you ha you have ten minutes left , I read . Because I think it will it must be marketing: You you already made a beta version , or project manager: Yeah , it's a three with seventy five marketing: Pages . industrial designer: project manager: No no no , marketing: Hey ? project manager: I'm just marketing: Oh , okay . industrial designer: So you you finished it actually , and so we just have to read it and say yes or no ? project manager: Well , this not nit it user interface: Yes . marketing: Maybe the user interface: project manager: Yeah , I understand you , I can talk a little bit Dutch . industrial designer: marketing: No , you have to put , switch channels at the top , because that's the most used function and teletext at the second project manager: Oka okay , okay , I I really didn't knew that . , well all the things we have discussed , the energy , which turn out to be batteries , so that's user interface: Yeah . Well , okay , maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost . , he here it is still double-curve , the rubber , the flashy , the fruity , the removable . project manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake , it's under the parental control , the touch-screen . industrial designer: project manager: So , it's just a summary of what we had discussed industrial designer: On thing One small thing , the added functions . , was it included in the cost ? I don't think so , eh ? user interface: Ah , it's very cheap . marketing: project manager: you you maybe you you you you come at marketing: No , it's it's not very cheap , but that project manager: It's very necessary . Okay , but so we can discuss that user interface: He'll do it in his free time . So project manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of industrial designer: marketing: Yeah . user interface: You can ask your personal industrial designer: project manager: Okay , so anybody misses something here about user interface: Yeah , the end conclusion . project manager: Yeah , okay , user interface: But project manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now . project manager: But , i in here nothing user interface: the decision to make the buttons on the top , and the menu on the project manager: user interface: Don't save it , aye ? project manager: Oh , that's cool , Tim . user interface: project manager: Well , I'm I'm user interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files project manager: I'm going to finish my end report <doc-sep>project manager: Hello , this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . project manager: the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . So , we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so basically I just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we've had from looking at some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , we've discovered that this year fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . marketing: so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that's really fancy , has lots of technolog tech technology in it . user interface: marketing: And that it's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the Real Reaction company . marketing: So fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: Okay . So I am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I think I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it later . generally , generally this remote control should be should be something , in my opinion , the first feature is just to be easy to use . So , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position inside the remote control . And s I can conclude like this , that we shouldn't need to learn how to use it . It should be we shouldn't need to es open a a t book and start reading and learning how to use this this remote control . So what I found out that as I said I think it's better to put more frequent ke buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . user interface: And maybe just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . And also f m because because customers doesn't like to buy lots of battery , it should not consume lots of energy . And my personal p preference is , as I said , just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used that much like settings button , like mobile phone . Usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put volume change or s ch can channel change buttons in the remote control . And if the user needed to do some more complex task he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . And also I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . For example , a sliding or rolling d stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with thumb . And I dunno but I think usage of a speech recogn r recogniser can be good . I know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . And I think it's good because it's something new and usually young people like something new . industrial designer: okay , so good news from me for me from Hamed , but bad news from Bob obviously , because spongy design , I don't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: Okay , so could you please , Fabien , open it . I Most of the things I have to write myself on the board , but project manager: This one , yeah . This this is just one thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just I just found this , that our company developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I'll just marketing: Inch . industrial designer: Yeah , seven seven inch T_ T_F_T_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . industrial designer: Okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . first thing is this will be the overall shape , no I'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can And if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which I found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can supply everything . I was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it's okay to use just two batteries and solar cells , so . the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . It depends where you put your screen , because the screen is seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . Then the graphical card for the T_F_T_ and the third unit is the I_R_ . The good news is that we can we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . So the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the T_F_T_ which is seven inches . I have to check what I wanted to from my point of view I don't care about the about the material used for the overall des ov all the device . project manager: Can you fit any for example a T_F_T_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? For example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , I can I can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: A all these things in in in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . Maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it's around the T_F_T_ then it's good , because it's just keeps it safe , project manager: Okay . user interface: Well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: This seven inch T_F_T_ screen , industrial designer: Yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: Well , seven to seven inches . industrial designer: marketing: have we decided that we're gonna use this T_F_T_ screen ? project manager: No , I don't think it's seven by seven , industrial designer: Yeah but project manager: I think it's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: To be honest , I was project manager: Usually when they say seven inch I think it's the diagonal . industrial designer: Yeah , honestly speaking I was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . industrial designer: So marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . marketing: So , what's the size of the device ? industrial designer: Ah well this is like this is almost nothing . marketing: Even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: Yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: Is it Can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: Because if it's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: A sm industrial designer: marketing: But is something that's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: W I I think so . I if the roller buttons are on the side you don't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow Well , that's that's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: So maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . , so I think we have a lot We have to take decision today , so I think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . first I think energy it's a key problem because it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . Because can we have L_C_D_ and speech recognition with battery , and it's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: Not J just a point to the energy th things . If we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it's okay for L_ speech recognition and L_C_D_ , project manager: Okay . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? Are are what Maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: Yeah I was thinking just common A_A_ cells . marketing: So if we use s solar cells , where is the sun if someone's watching T_V_ inside ? industrial designer: S d doesn't need to be sun . industrial designer: Yeah well I I suppose that I suppose that that this remote control won't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . project manager: At least when there is T_V_ you can get light from the T_V_ . industrial designer: Ah it's a it's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: At least it's new and maybe technology New technology . industrial designer: Yeah , that's why I wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . user interface: project manager: So I think before talking about the other thing , it's important thing it's the case . industrial designer: project manager: what what are gonna be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . For example for the for the L_C_D_ , if we choose to have a small device , we cannot use this a such a a a screen . Well what what would you guess as a shape ? Or what what would be the shape ? user interface: . And I prefer to is it shouldn't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . You can take some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it's it's designed for your f taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . So seven not seven but let's say five by ten it's I think it's that's my opinion . industrial designer: Yeah , I think it's feasib Well one How could we do it ? We could put the board next to , well , under the L_C_D_ and for example make the L_C_D_ be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . industrial designer: Like holding something , and the L_C_D_ to be just on top of it , you know somehow . I've I s I think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller L_C_D_ , if it's possible . industrial designer: Okay , so five to ten , I I think it's it's feasible . user interface: but I don't want to now invent something new , because we didn't discuss about it . So using some L_C_D_s we can touch , so we can remove keys and just having , I dunno the name , L_C_D_ responding to fingers . user interface: So But for now if we don't want to use such kind of screens I I think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: Yeah . user interface: because project manager: The problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we cannot do something very new . user interface: project manager: So let's go for a small L_C_D_ . marketing: So industrial designer: Okay , so Yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: A smaller s project manager: Yeah okay . something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? My first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , I thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: Seven to ten banana . marketing: Well it's it's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . user interface: marketing: what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: But it's just an idea . I dunno what you think about , but marketing: Do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Well , but If it's If it If the banana is big enough . Well user interface: project manager: Yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: I think this is not good . project manager: The screen has to be square ? Or it can be like a a shape , quite , with curves . industrial designer: But if it's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . But if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . I think that's more important than saving a bit of money on on the T_F_T_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit fatter than than the c c common one . Yeah , it should remember banana , but it's not doesn't have to b to be really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . project manager: So we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: Well it we'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: Okay . project manager: So , the last point we decided it's infra-red , I guess . You have other thing to add to this point , or no ? So , about the user interface , so we are going to use L_C_D_ . You talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: Like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: Yeah , peeling of the banana . marketing: industrial designer: First layer obviously spo Yeah , project manager: So industrial designer: w It's it's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah I think . project manager: Is it is it possible to do that ? It would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: project manager: Like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: I think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it's easy to make that , project manager: Yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: user interface: Yeah , some Something like a plastic cover covering some interface , U_S_B_ interface as in the in digital camera . You open a plastic cover and you see some U_S_B_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . So keys can be buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and when and when you open this cover it's like peeling a banana . project manager: Yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: Well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah it's a lic like a plastic cover , so . industrial designer: So I think if it's so then it's cool ? project manager: So , I dunno what you think , Bob , but it would be great for users I think , and very good for marketing . maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , I dunno how to do that technically , or . Yeah or a Yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover sticking to the to the all the stuff like with magnetic p magnetic magnetic materials in the border , so it's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . So you you can be sure that it will not be open while you're while while you are commonly using buttons on the banana . industrial designer: Well since since the since the things like the like the screen and how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we cannot b So we need that the that the peeling I dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . So , if if the solar cell won't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . So you're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: It is possible , but , well if it marketing: And a and a banana . industrial designer: I dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: And something we forgot , maybe , about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: Yes , I think . project manager: So we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: . marketing: user interface: project manager: And , yeah , I I think you should work together , s you Hamed and Peter , to work in a in a first prototype , and more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together

The project manager acknowledged the lack of background information on the competitor but suggested analyzing based on product price. Marketing added that the remote control is not a consciously assessed factor in purchasing decisions. The question arose whether the remote control should be larger to avoid loss, with User Interface initially suggesting a bigger size and the project manager proposing a hand-sized device. Taking into account the light feature and noise, User Interface believed a mobile remote control with a target price of 25 Euros was feasible. Both User Interface and the project manager agreed that ease of use was paramount, with the project manager desiring a fashionable shape. They ultimately decided on a banana-shaped remote control to align with their company's yellow color. The remote should be compact and trendy, made with different materials and colors. To maximize user satisfaction, the power button should be placed on the top right for easy thumb access, along with standard buttons for channels and volume. The User Interface also suggested adding their logo to make the remote control unique. Initially, the User Interface designer wanted a curvy design, but the marketing expert expressed budget concerns and deemed it unnecessary. Eventually, they compromised on a flat and single-curved remote control design.

What were the recommendations of the Project Manager regarding competitor information and the discussion on the size, shape, appearance, functions, and button layout of the remote control?

project manager: He he he industrial designer: So what can you ? project manager: You did work together didn't you ? industrial designer: Yeah we will yeah , so I will be able to to summarize our meeting , project manager: Yes . yes industrial designer: can we have a phone , project manager: but w we industrial designer: can someone project manager: Yes , maybe we should phone him . project manager: And well first thing I was I got an email from from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the twelve Euro and fifty cents . project manager: when you stay in it's good , when you don't stay in you have to redesign . marketing: Well we can't no we can't do evaluation 'til we have a design . So I will start by the the basic one that fits into eight Euros actually , right , seven eight Euros , marketing: industrial designer: and well first for both they have a special shape , maybe the designer can explain better than me , but it's like a surf board . industrial designer: And you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf T_V_ , maybe the web , and it's kind of interesting shape because unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff . Don't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we don't take user interface: Now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now . industrial designer: yeah L_A_ L_A_ L_E_D_ , user interface: L_E_D_ . industrial designer: How can you change from V_C_R_ to T_V_ , by the way ? user interface: Oh no no no , this is a single this this is a model with just the T_V_ one . user interface: No no just sorry , this is a standard T_V_ one , we are not talking about that . So and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits . And the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . marketing: it's it's t a very basic remote then , it's only user interface: It's a very basic minimal thing marketing: . user interface: which you can which is which is also available in the market , actually that's what it that it i industrial designer: user interface: and would cost us to build it about eight Euros . project manager: Exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons . industrial designer: user interface: Th this is a magic one but I know we don't want to talk about that , marketing: user interface: you know like industrial designer: user interface: i i i it is a very futuristic , it's like it's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come . user interface: So that then what we look t marketing: Did you wanna see ? user interface: yeah . Yeah no you can carry on , user interface: This is a model , project manager: I just look how it feels all . industrial designer: project manager: So but but continue with your user interface: so well project manager: user interface: then the this is the a more a little smooth industrial designer: user interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , in this way , so all we have th you see there are only six keys , but don't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here . user interface: and it's easy to use this and you have so this is a standard infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have , project manager: user interface: and then other than that you have channel up and down and f slow pause or s slow lo industrial designer: Play , pause . user interface: yeah s pause or stop , and then you can you have a L_C_D_ display , here project manager: user interface: and y this is a functional thing which can change like it's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it project manager: From D_V_D_ player to television or something . project manager: Yes and and and then you get feedback via the L_C_D_ yeah . user interface: The L_C_D_ can display what is that on that , industrial designer: Yes . user interface: and well you can have a integrated microphone over here , industrial designer: This is the orange button , the microphone . user interface: so which can basically you want to do a speech recognition and that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the on your on your display . user interface: And here is a small L_E_D_ which is like blinking one , project manager: user interface: which tells you like are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as I was talking earlier project manager: And well then we have a cover basically , basically you don't need much of the time this , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover project manager: . project manager: but but but but i in there when this is closed , will it also cover up the L_C_D_ screen ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: But but the L_C_D_ screen is a very well an eye-attracting feature industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: project manager: which shouldn't be shouldn't be user interface: Actually when you are watching the T_V_ , when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here , industrial designer: Oh actually well . user interface: you know , you want to and this gives a protection to the L_C_D_ actually , giving a cover to that actually . user interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec project manager: industrial designer: So the the cost is actually a bit more , it's it's it's sixteen Francs . project manager: But w industrial designer: But the the main point we we talk about that with our manufacturer . And they say basically that the S_R_ system would be something like three Francs per item user interface: Yeah . And marketing: That's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ? industrial designer: No no no , part of that , yeah . user interface: Well if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more some more keys if you want to you know project manager: industrial designer: it's too user interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything . marketing: What's this one on the side ? user interface: Ah that's for the it's kind of a L_E_D_ for indicating your battery industrial designer: Locati . project manager: Be before ta talking about the money and what's possible and what is not possible , maybe Anna you can give our give us your marketing: marketing: We just wanna make sure that we've taken into account project manager: Well marketing: Yep . marketing: So it's just a shortlist of criteria on the things that we've identified as being important to selling the product . marketing: we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so These are the things we identified as being important . the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components project manager: marketing: appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . And then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . So well do you wanna go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wanna discuss them further and then evaluate them ? project manager: n no why not why not discuss discuss it now , marketing: Okay . So the first one was really very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'Cause if we're only going to make it for eight Euros then we have a project manager: well my my personal view is w when when this one is eight Euros we must think how can we improve it . project manager: And then w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half Euro marketing: project manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik quite fixed on twenty five Euros industrial designer: project manager: so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer he can have for twenty five Euro . Oh , you following the idea of using the removable covers on these ? Is that part of both of them or ? project manager: well w w we can still discuss that . project manager: So , and together with evaluating this we we might come with new ideas marketing: project manager: adding things or removing of options because they are too expensive , marketing: project manager: No okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production production unit for several components , industrial designer: project manager: so we can see whether the the price is is within the twelve Euro fifty cents . user interface: project manager: In i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand , marketing: marketing: On the scale u it's between functional and fancy basically we're looking at , project manager: So maybe two . Ma ma ma ma maybe say say five marketing: so project manager: I It's my opinion , but I don't know what what user interface: Well I will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it's like the surf as you say marketing: industrial designer: If you press like this not like this then you marketing: No that's the industrial designer: user interface: No . user interface: C can you get the batteries ? No no the battery has fallen down , marketing: Battery's low , isn't it the ink ? user interface: that's i marketing: The b that's the that that one ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: But user interface: No no it's not that , it's how to close a battery . marketing: No it's It would still write project manager: Oh it will not marketing: but it wouldn't pick it up with the sensors . marketing: You got a second ? industrial designer: Try a marketing: Well we won't be able to tell . marketing: Because we'll be able to see it still even if it wasn't working , it's just a normal whiteboard marker industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . marketing: it's hard to tell from just the plasticine , project manager: I I I marketing: but project manager: When we want to include I I I'm doubting about this this component . industrial designer: maybe user interface: No actually this is this is not going to protrude actually , marketing: Okay . user interface: it it's n i it is jus industrial designer: It's not a button it's a led , it's a user interface: It's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve industrial designer: Ac actually yeah it should be embedded . marketing: 'Cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand , user interface: Yeah . user interface: No you it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that marketing: Okay . project manager: Well r r marketing: I'd say two or three for that one , personally . project manager: I think the look is better industrial designer: project manager: but the feel is is is worse . project manager: But w w do you what do you think ? user interface: it's fine I think . My just that the feel is that you right now you you don't see the feel because right for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it's embedded one . user interface: This is how embedded one will project manager: Yes , it basically is the same shape . user interface: You will be Except that in this c industrial designer: And the L_C_D_ makes it better . marketing: So , consensus ? Two or three ? project manager: Two ? marketing: Two ? project manager: . The first one , not really muc industrial designer: Basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market , marketing: . industrial designer: right ? marketing: Do we user interface: No but except for the design of the surf . marketing: What What features are we actually including ? user interface: You should be rea marketing: Are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? user interface: no marketing: There's nothing like that ? user interface: I think it's more of the feel . marketing: But th is there any there's no actual innovation in that at all , it's just a straight-out remote control . project manager: S so that marketing: So there's no this look and feel thing , though that's not a technological innovation . marketing: So what is it , what are the innovations with this ? Got the L_C_D_ screen . marketing: Is that in this one though ? Is this 'cause this is the Th th there were different options we discussed then , user interface: No , we ha marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget . marketing: So the cost for these were industrial designer: So marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? Eight Euros ? project manager: Eight . Innovation for this one is two ? One ? user interface: It's a two , I would say two . industrial designer: W W un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , I don't see project manager: Why it is one . project manager: This this is it w with the speech recognition ? industrial designer: It's using speech recognition , yeah . project manager: Gi given that that it works , marketing: Give it a one ? industrial designer: Yeah , one , yeah . project manager: marketing: Ease of use ? user interface: industrial designer: So the first one is really standard , marketing: . industrial designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it , user interface: He is used to it act marketing: Yeah . user interface: though it has more functionality I think it shouldn't be for the user to learn it actually . user interface: yeah , actually in fact I think it will be industrial designer: One me we hope user interface: Yeah industrial designer: maybe sometimes people get scared with the number of buttons . industrial designer: because it's n it's not like a big one with one hundred buttons or so , user interface: Yeah it's a project manager: No . user interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually , marketing: marketing: So three's project manager: What's the next ? marketing: how well it goes to the target demographic . So we're d we're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? project manager: So user interface: . project manager: Twe twenty to forty , yes that's marketing: That's industrial designer: This one would be for grandmothers . that's that's something which which has an appeal on this group I think , industrial designer: Yeah that's true . If it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then I can imagine it being applying to the the demographic project manager: but industrial designer: Yeah . That's it's still Ye project manager: w w w we after this we can can consider for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic marketing: . 'Cause we have got room , we've got some budget there to add a few things to it , project manager: . marketing: And project manager: Do you agree ? user interface: I industrial designer: Yeah because it's so important it's i it was written that it really so important , the the the look and taking care of its it targets , the right range of people , user interface: Well I think marketing: . marketing: But it's going to be cheap whatever though , industrial designer: But w user interface: So marketing: it was set with i we've got a set price . user interface: instead of a industrial designer: But for us it's yeah we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five Euros . There's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few Euros on that one rather than another one . marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? user interface: And the demographics of marketing: It's got the got the the toys in it , it's got the L_C_D_ screen project manager: Yeah tha tha tha tha tha that's marketing: and project manager: I think it's better , marketing: . project manager: because of the L_C_D_ screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the marketing: Yeah . And if you want to target yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , I think for this audience we need absolutely the L_C_D_ screen . marketing: I think especially if we're gonna n have an L_C_D_ screen on a low range product then that's good . project manager: Because it , ma maybe that's something to consider , yes , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Because then you you have it d you have lot of things which you can include marketing: Yeah . And especially I guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well , user interface: for the people to marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it's more of a a new fun toy . project manager: I think industrial designer: Spongy , that means that it goes in in the water . marketing: Well , project manager: marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well , user interface: marketing: I know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but I'm thinking one of the Nokias that's got like you ca it hasn't got individual buttons industrial designer: okay . project manager: And the then we can al marketing: Or is it just one industrial designer: Yeah . We can we can consider is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? marketing: Well they make it for mobiles , it can't be that much more complicated . user interface: But why do you want to cover that actually ? In that w in the mod project manager: Well just with the with the flexible plastic marketing: So you got the option of having different colours or different textures . project manager: I th I th I think user interface: y are you sure ? Yeah I think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah . project manager: so Maybe we can but we have to decide it , we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers marketing: marketing: I think the if we do the cover that's really going with the company's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion project manager: . marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it'll still be in fashion . 'Cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it's all black , marketing: . industrial designer: and it's quite conventional , and sometimes people don't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here . industrial designer: So maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard things . project manager: marketing: Although it is more with the spongy buttons on the on the other one . project manager: this one has spongy but buttons ? industrial designer: Yeah , the blue one spongy . marketing: Okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five nine by five , one point s eight ? project manager: Just add it . marketing: This one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two user interface: Four point four point two . But we still got a very different price for those two so they're not really comparable yet anyway . project manager: Because , when we choose for this one we have to we have to make it more attractive marketing: marketing: Well it's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out . project manager: But I'm now did y did you work with the same prices that I have here ? industrial designer: So I I give yeah I just give a call with the manufacturer and I explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen Fr Euros . So let's let's try to to model this this phone in this sheet , user interface: It's a it's a normal battery , or user interface: Yeah , it migh It it'll need more than a conventional one , it won't be just maybe you might use a A_A_ battery actually . What do you say , Mael ? industrial designer: For this one it's a normal battery . industrial designer: So which one are we talking to ? user interface: Are you talking about this or that ? industrial designer: Well marketing: Either of them . project manager: Oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape , user interface: industrial designer: Is it zero Franc ? user interface: A special colour ? project manager: special colour , now we leave it to the covers . user interface: marketing: So now we're either going button or L_C_D_s , L_C_D_ display . marketing: Is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ? project manager: Yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components . user interface: Yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ? industrial designer: No but for this one it's twelve Euro . industrial designer: There are twelve ? project manager: So , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , user interface: Yeah that's a scroll . project manager: So marketing: So we'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . user interface: project manager: So I think but th do you agree th that thi industrial designer: Wait a minute , it's not it's not double curved , it's single curved , right ? Because it's there is no like . marketing: But I thought it would be curved on two project manager: Yes I marketing: it's like it's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that's what I thought . project manager: Yes I'm I'm no I'm no I'm not sh sure . industrial designer: Well project manager: Yes I kno undes I understand what you mean , yes . industrial designer: it's you know this curve like this so , it's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are marketing: You talking about concave curves ? project manager: -huh . industrial designer: So I think we can put marketing: You think a single curved ? industrial designer: the single curved in the sixteen . marketing: We have more , we've got those the scroll wheel on the side industrial designer: So marketing: and yeah industrial designer: I had a bad bad estimation . user interface: Bad estimate , marketing: The sc project manager: W d user interface: right ? project manager: we have we haven't talk about a , but that's no a is very exp inexpensive I believe marketing: . marketing: We've got a scroll wheel for the volume don't we , or is it some other thing that's not on there . project manager: W ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides so for higher and lower ? industrial designer: No no no . marketing: 'Kay we've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast . industrial designer: Okay , user interface: industrial designer: so based on that , yeah , where is the es okay sample speaker user interface: That is the sample sensor and sample speaker . project manager: So industrial designer: But still , yeah it user interface: We just need that actually . project manager: We're We We could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we can't have the the speech recognition , yes ? Yes ? industrial designer: No we cannot , yeah . project manager: So so w when we w a industrial designer: So user interface: S project manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition . industrial designer: But the Yeah but if you have the near the L_C_D_ you can choose select between you know like uni universal between audio , T_V_ and V_C_R_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip . project manager: Transti industrial designer: Right , Matthew ? user interface: Oh I i it industrial designer: Or regular chip ? user interface: I think it's going to be y y industrial designer: I think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip . And what about the number of buttons buttons my Matthew ? project manager: Yes but that maybe Well we can just say user interface: industrial designer: project manager: one . project manager: Ca l we are just when we just want to to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty . industrial designer: But project manager: So is it possible ? marketing: But that's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material . user interface: That'll be then we have have to ask the user to press it several times . industrial designer: You cannot make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low , project manager: user interface: project manager: No no , marketing: Well project manager: he he he I I industrial designer: no ? user interface: marketing: So the L_C_D_ display is is three Francs , sorry three Euros , by itself . industrial designer: And we don't want to to change that right ? We we really want a L_C_D_ user interface: project manager: marketing: So twelve Euro fifty , we got two off of the battery , industrial designer: And I dunno marketing: we can't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an L_C_D_ dispra display , that's seven fifty , so we've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . marketing: So we're gonna have to scale this down to get within budget , there's no doubt about that . project manager: A industrial designer: So wha what what each of us think about the because it's measure point the L_C_D_ , Do you think it's important ? user interface: Or we could even replace them by buttons actually . industrial designer: Because sometimes whe when you watch the T_V_ in fact , you have a big display and maybe you don't need one more in your hands ? I dunno , I'm just asking . project manager: user interface: A actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it , marketing: Yep . user interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or and you'll have L_C_D_ display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two Euros at least . I think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the L_C_D_ display . user interface: Okay so we can get rid of it industrial designer: Yeah , it's true yeah . What do you think , L_C_D_ is a major feature , or ? project manager: . I marketing: For the price , it's gonna be what we can afford , and it's looking like we can't afford the L_C_D_ display , there's no way we can get it in there . project manager: I think we have to come to a decision now , just I I think we we what we just do i is vote about the the L_C_D_ display marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: You assume , you want a democratic voyt vote , project manager: Yes . project manager: S so who thinks the the L_C_D_ disply display should be i should be in it ? marketing: I th I'd like t it to be in but I can't see it happening . user interface: Yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that . project manager: So having an L_C_D_ s display is just have very very limited amount of buttons . user interface: W I I I just project manager: So hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve . industrial designer: Because one yeah th show me that actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three possibilities for each of the three here . user interface: No , it's okay , you cut the L_C_D_ screen project manager: Just user interface: and introduce two more buttons . So L_C_D_'s out , is speech rec out now ? We've industrial designer: The speech recognition is out . project manager: Okay w we now we can just marketing: So are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? Which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . Well that's that's project manager: My m my supervisor will be glad that it's fifty cents cheaper than he expected . marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment <doc-sep>Let's shall we all introduce ourselves ? marketing: Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the Marketing Expert . , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ? project manager: I think we'll get around to that , yeah . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: so . And to do this , we have to there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . user interface: So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ? project manager: marketing: I think both . project manager: Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? industrial designer: user interface: I gotta think about it for a second like . Does it have to be functional , trendy and user friendly ? project manager: I don't think so . user interface: Yeah , it's industrial designer: project manager: 'S like playing Pictionary . project manager: So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? industrial designer: user interface: I like its tail . industrial designer: user interface: no , I think dolphins are really I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like project manager: They're graceful . user interface: Yeah they're sleek industrial designer: user interface: and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing . He's a I dunno they're I think it's cool the the the interaction that or the th things that the reasons people seem to like you know you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . project manager: I dunno if the the industrial designer: I think the pen is running out of marketing: Well I had the cat as well , but I've got a spare one . I don't really know how the legs go , industrial designer: project manager: That's very good . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country . user interface: Sorry can you just say that what's the what are our price goals again ? project manager: selling price is twenty five Euro . marketing: How many should we sell then ? , a lot , project manager: Anyone a mathematician ? marketing: two two two million , two mi no , more f four million . And it industrial designer: marketing: well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million . , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . so do we have any initial ideas for how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have . marketing: I think one thing is that it should be easy to find industrial designer: user interface: I was thinking that too . user interface: I think we should design something that has like a so you can like somehow like you you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button , industrial designer: user interface: I've always wanted that , project manager: Yeah . user interface: so like you can push a button on your T_V_ marketing: Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah . user interface: Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control . marketing: In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound user interface: Yeah . marketing: I don't know if it's expensive maybe to user interface: I don't yeah it but like marketing: Maybe call is enough . user interface: just like your phone even just has so like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno marketing: Yeah yeah yeah . project manager: What if it had something like just like a magnet on the back of it and you could j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . user interface: Yeah , project manager: 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so user interface: industrial designer: Well that's why it's always in the couch . marketing: project manager: user interface: I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and project manager: Yeah . marketing: But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . project manager: Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ? marketing: And the other thing is user interface: Bigger . marketing: Not well it needs to be sort of project manager: Like Hand hand held size , yeah . I don't think you need a project manager: Not not huge , but industrial designer: marketing: But definitely not well I don't know . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: That would be really I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop . , oh we just user interface: I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons , industrial designer: Yeah , I agree . user interface: I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . project manager: You what if may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . it just seems like project manager: So you could like like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can the way you do it on your radio is that you user interface: yeah . project manager: s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s marketing: But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen . marketing: Because , I don't know if it's I think it's e expensive , if you have if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote , project manager: Yeah . Something like not it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do , project manager: Yeah . user interface: Or like you h you see those you know people I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those these things that at their house you know their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that and it's like a hand held like turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if it must be it would probably marketing: Yeah . user interface: marketing: Or some it i we can find out probably on the internet how much it's project manager: Yeah . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water industrial designer: marketing: What was the word ? user interface: Furry . project manager: Oh I was just user interface: marketing: No but it's I thought , ah , spot on . industrial designer: marketing: Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel , project manager: Yeah . project manager: Maybe just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your user interface: Yeah . We should probably start wrapping up , we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ , industrial designer: Yeah I think so . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and that sort of thing . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w user interface: So technical function . user interface: What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what project manager: I guess you'd have to find out . user interface: It does but it I just don't really industrial designer: I wrote down what mine were . marketing: Be a medium between you and the telly I think , user interface: Yeah , yeah . project manager: And the M_E_ , what does that stand for ? M industrial designer: Marketing <doc-sep>project manager: So who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready ? marketing: I have a presentation , I'm just making this industrial designer: Yeah I think yeah the Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is here project manager: Okay . Ah industrial designer: because it's really a a team project with a team project manager: there is Matthew . industrial designer: user interface: So project manager: So did you manage user interface: Yeah I sent you the slides , you didn't see them ? project manager: Oh yes I see him , good yes . Okay so this is just a presentation on the trends that we're gonna use to make the product stand out from the rest of the products out there at the moment . can I just put this on ? So we have to work out a way what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people wanna buy it . We basically used some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time , the main results of that , and some research on the current design and fashion trends that are out there at the moment , industrial designer: marketing: and as part of this The important aspects that came out were things that we've already discussed really . Most people find remote controls boring at the moment , we need to have something that looks interesting , that looks exciting , that will stand out . That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative has to have something else , apart from just the look of it . Third on the list , and again innovative was twice as important as this last aspect , it has to be easy to use . So they have to be able to be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it . This is basically talking about just the the feel of it , so probably not the smell of it , but the bright colours , eye-catching , really bold designs , and a spongy feel . marketing: I had a talk to the design people about this , but having a remote that's tactile , that feels different , that would be really cool . industrial designer: So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ? project manager: Spongy feel ? industrial designer: about the feeling yeah yo marketing: Well user interface: You can marketing: ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing . Spongy is the current texture , but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all , so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something , that'll be something that sets it apart , industrial designer: Okay . marketing: So as far as the design goes , the very most important aspect was the design , to the customers . So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours , part of the fruit and vegetables . Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose what colour the outside is . marketing: So if it's part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture , a spongy one or a soft one or something like that . So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe to fit in with their decor in their living room , or just what they like , their sports team or whatever . marketing: and yeah , still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality , the way the mobile phones work , the way the keypad looks . People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that , and we can start using some of their ideas . we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it's been lost , that's one thing we could look at . There are other aspects like L_C_D_ screens and speech recognition which weren't I don't think , in my personal opinion , gonna be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them . I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves , project manager: . Yes well marketing: and then project manager: maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the marketing: yeah user interface: Yeah . marketing: and then th th the finer details of buttons you don't use as much either hidden away or completely separate . marketing: So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you project manager: Maybe we yes well we maybe can decide later on the l the the look and feel of I've it was a good idea maybe to to industrial designer: To let the people choose , you mean ? project manager: Yes the the the there are changeable covers , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but on the other hand I I don't know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because you have to introduce a complete new l line of of supplies marketing: . project manager: it would be very complicated organisational industrial designer: marketing: Well we're selling so many units of this . This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least . industrial designer: Sure that fits the project manager: Yes and of course it will be a we we get a if it works we can get after-sales marketing: . project manager: That's a very good idea And then maybe we can go a th Matthew's presentation because user interface: Yeah marketing: user interface: s project manager: the user interface: then we could discuss later like we can put all ideas together . project manager: because you ma might have some some information on the the easy to use , industrial designer: Yeah yeah I agree . user interface: so Okay so m so then the the idea of having a remote is generally you have different keys and different structures , different forms , and they could be like buttons and they could be of a varying sizes if you want to to basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button . user interface: So what I have found was that currently the they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the g s some soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have marketing: . user interface: and There is also a speech recognition to store channel information , names , like You can basically if you have a multiple functionality , say T_V_ , V_C_R_ or something I say it to the T_V_ and the T_V_ , and you can programme the keys if you want to , certain keys are even the channel information . I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like B_B_C_ , rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad . user interface: Yeah yeah so you you you can just because as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly , industrial designer: . user interface: even if you arrange it by however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to marketing: . industrial designer: So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ? user interface: So it it it's like it limited one . In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for eighty word thing , eighty word , marketing: Basically you want you don't want to store all the channels in the remote control , marketing: . user interface: And basically it depends like the remote with L_C_D_ display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie , and you are having a universal remote control and you want to you don't know really which functionality is now , so I am using the T_V_ so every time I use it , it could be like , for example I can use a simple toggle switch , and a display , so I press it so the display says , okay , I'm in T_V_ or D_V_D_ or whatever it is , instead of having three keys separately for four keys , marketing: And well there can be children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed to browse certain channels which you can block them , and you can operate them . user interface: I personally would look at things like having a u universal remote , is is a good idea , like instead of having unusual ones for all of them you can think of having , with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition . user interface: I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that they have integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine , industrial designer: marketing: b user interface: and so if you say hello coffee machine , it say hi Joe , or something like that , you know , and marketing: But a coffee machine , there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary . user interface: Yeah you you won't be using it , so it's a limited vocabulary thing , and very isolated word marketing: . user interface: and it's it is interesting , and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys , on the display for the browsing marketing: . user interface: which is again and maybe having something like a blinking thing , like it could indicate you're it it could indicate what is cal like the whether you you have enough battery in your in your remote , the blinking . user interface: At the same time , if it's a dark room , it can be used to locate the remote also marketing: user interface: or industrial designer: And you want okay for coming back to one point marketing: Two thirty five supposed to finish . industrial designer: y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ? user interface: Yeah you can let them to do that . industrial designer: And isn't that too difficult for the we want w I don't know if we still want the R_C_ to be easy to use , marketing: . user interface: N no but the if you give it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put . user interface: Like for example I would like to store in certain way , so if you want to give the full freedom to the user marketing: . marketing: You can have it so it's easy they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it , industrial designer: A standard . project manager: maybe you can give a hand to us because I I'm not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents . project manager: I'm sorry to have Every time I have to come down on this price again marketing: . project manager: but it's it's it's the real We have to consider it . project manager: do we think these ideas an and my sp speech recognition , maybe it's possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the the the the furry case of the marketing: . industrial designer: - yeah like I would say that for programming keys , you said , it could be easily done within the the package of twel twelve Euros , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but for the A_S_R_ system , I'm not sure if it's feasible to have this user interface: We well we can still look at we can talk with the coffee unit industrial designer: We user interface: and you can check how much how much they industrial designer: Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented , user interface: yeah yeah marketing: . user interface: Maybe we can come we we can talk to them , and we can come with that , project manager: . user interface: And also well you can think of having since you have a you know something maybe if you added little bit of display , you might need the to che keep checking the battery , so you really need a some kind of indicator , marketing: . user interface: so it could be a blinking option of L_E_D_ project manager: . marketing: I like the idea too of being able to use the remote in the dark , project manager: . user interface: So marketing: so either having the buttons so you can feel the difference between them or if they if they light up or something . user interface: No actually i if i it is like you know it tells you , it can be for two purposes , marketing: . user interface: like if you have an L_C_D_ display and all those things it's not going to be the standard remote , marketing: . user interface: which is having which need just six six volt th sorry three volts of D_C_ . user interface: It may need more actually , so y you you may need to check your battery usage it and then you need that , some functionality to indicate the battery limit . user interface: And then if the battery limit is indicated , if it could be ind indicated through a blinking something industrial designer: It's true . user interface: and it can change the colour depending on your how much is the battery , well that is good enough to even locate even if you want to . user interface: Yeah so industrial designer: I don't know how if if I have time to talk about the project manager: yes I would user interface: You you have time some more ? Yep . So what I'm gonna present here is very yeah basic knowledge about the all the the components that are inside a a R_C_ a remote control , and how is it manufactured h what is the process , just to explain you . industrial designer: So the method is ther there is a a set of components in a in a remote control like , and what cost the the components in themself do not cost a lot but the the way to assemble everything costs obviously , and I will show you my preferences at the end . So there are two different types of Two different ways of using the the components for making a a remote control . industrial designer: the basic way is to use a an integrated circuit and some transistors with an that aims at communicating the message and to to send the message to the to the led that will transmit to the receiver . And yeah the other components and the circuit board buttons , infrared , led , etcetera , for the components . So you finding , just to say that the chip can detect when a key is pressed , and then it translate to the key , to a sequence , something like morse code , as you know , with a different sequence for each key , project manager: industrial designer: and that's , with the components we will use , we will have different messages , different sequences , and the chips sends that signal signal to the transistor that amplify to make it stronger . And so I think for our design we want some b programmable you know V_ V_L_S_I_ or F_P_G_A_ high technology , user interface: Yeah industrial designer: and this is important , and also we'll use yeah like in any high-tech devices a chip of fi fibreglass to them and connect them . industrial designer: So my personal design we need to find a solution what what is the material of the cover we want to use . industrial designer: or you said that yeah you had some ideas like fruit , veg or project manager: Well well industrial designer: I dunno . marketing: project manager: m m maybe m maybe we can give the the the case a very normal a v very normal case but , with the changeable covers to fancy it up . project manager: So like a normal cheap plastic case which can be covered up in , for instance , a wooden case . So they also emailed me that they have available a bunch of different buttons , a scroll wheels , integrated push buttons s such as a computer mouse . And very cheap L_C_D_s , so liquid crystal displays , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: so I'm wondering , I think we might be able to integrate L_C_D_ into our R_C_ . industrial designer: So we have to know that the push button requires a simple chip , but the scroll wheel and that kind of higher high-tech stuff needs more money which is a higher price range alright . And the display requires an advanced chip , which in turns is more expensive than the regular chip , but I think with twelve Euros and if it's made for four million items , then I think w we could be able to handle that . industrial designer: So to to sum up we need yeah so I I just said that the components the list of components has to be yeah listed and and assembly is a an important process that has to be taken into account . And for the designing of the cove cover layout then it's better to to to maybe see that with the the U_R_ exp U_R_I_ Expert user interface: Sorry . user interface: Yeah so industrial designer: right ? user interface: of course for example I wanted to know like if you want to have a a fo if you want to have the L_C_D_ display over there , industrial designer: Yes . user interface: or if you want to store a programmes with a keys What kind of things you'll need inside your thin inside W wh what industrial designer: Yeah it's kind of simple pro progra programmable device , and we have to insert . industrial designer: I think we could insert one that could underlie several functions user interface: Okay so industrial designer: of user interface: in that case you can even look at the technology what the mobile phone is trying to use with the card . How f cost effective it would be to put that car chip into it and do the programmable things . project manager: so I understand when we want a display we need a expensive chip , but when we want a scrolling wheel w we also need the expensive chip , so can we use same chip , so with one expensive chip we can implement several complicated or advanced features . industrial designer: we could have one main chip that could handle , it's called F_P_G_A_ chip , that could handle both like scrolling wheels as well as L_C_D_ project manager: project manager: when the more expensive chip you mentioned there is is possible in the in the given budget , maybe we should go for for the more expensive chip , so all features which you mentioned can be implemented based on the same chip . user interface: D well project manager: Do you think that's feasible ? user interface: Well I don't know if it'll fit into our cost of twelve point five Euro you know . user interface: Is it possible to fit in to that ? industrial designer: Yeah also thinking , I think both if we had a budget of twenty twenty Euros , it will be okay , user interface: Sorry . Actually do maybe two designs and then cost them out and see which one is gonna fit in our budget better . project manager: wh when you make a a design ca you can next meeting you can give an quite an exact cost price . user interface: Yeah that's that's something which I wanted to ask you also , like what will be the each individually the cost of it . For example if f if you want to put wood I wouldn't suggest for wood industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: 'cause it's I think it's m much easier to use a plastic or a rubber rather than wood . user interface: It will be much ch much expensive th though it's the most natural thing , but project manager: Yes but I can I think I think we can just use more cheap plastic for a kind of basic edition , and then people can fancy it up with with more expensive materials marketing: . user interface: it's Yeah we we can give a preference to them , but it is but with plastic or the rubber or whatever it is it's much better with that rather than going for project manager: Do do you agree ? marketing: yeah sure . industrial designer: Yeah but i it's a detailed yeah yeah plastic versus wood , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and we need maybe to centre our description on the the really the what buttons what functionality we want to offer to the user , and maybe with graphs or I don't know user interface: Yeah . So Let let's say next meeting w you produce two designs , one one one less advanced and one more advanced and with the cost price . project manager: which can be later fancied up with with addit additional , how do you call them , these like like mobile telephones you can put a cover over it . Smooth keys with bigger s So that you know The the problem most of the time we've seen , the keys is that it's small , project manager: . user interface: and every time we have to be very but if i the if we if we go to a different ways of designing those keys , then you can merge them together marketing: So is there any of these that you're looking at particularly user interface: to marketing: or is this just ideas ? user interface: Oh you can actually , for example , if you see , they are they are they are quite small over here , marketing: user interface: and now you can , for example , as I was if you make them big , it may change the look of the thing also to the people . user interface: At the same time , it is m more like it would be more interesting for people who are having this R_S_I_ and all problem . user interface: big keys may better for them actually and marketing: You see ? industrial designer: I agree yeah , marketing: Yeah . marketing: one I've had before , a r r remote control we have at home is one that's actually got a cover on the bottom user interface: Yeah . marketing: so the bottom bit is just , covers half the keys most of the time , and then you can slide the cover back to get to the the more advanced keys . project manager: w but then you have still have when you don't use it you have such a a an extent of your remote control marketing: . So maybe it's possible , I don't know whether you can can indicate this , that you can elsewhere open your remote control and on the inside are buttons you don't use that much . industrial designer: That's what you mean ? project manager: Yes I I th that's what user interface: Yeah . marketing: Can we have can we think about maybe having a a non-recta non non-rectangular one , so with not just the straight little box industrial designer: Yeah I like also this one . industrial designer: Yeah , the point is w maybe we need to also to make a decision on how how how big we want to be and how many buttons like n we should dec decide numbers or marketing: 'kay . Is this for the next meeting though ? user interface: We should make a marketing: I think we might be out of time out of time for this meeting . user interface: Yeah that yeah next meeting we should be project manager: Ju just make two designs , industrial designer: Okay . So is this is there anything else I need to do from a marketing point of view for the next meeting ? project manager: yes I come to that user interface: Maybe it would be interesting if you could look for the cost inventories of other devices , if you're using speech recognition or something like that . project manager: Yes well m maybe , I don't know whether that's possible , marketing: . marketing: Okay well is this me designing a way to evaluate it so Thinking about how to set up test groups and things ? project manager: I don't know whether that's possible in the given time marketing: . project manager: So you two will be together w working on a o on two prototypes industrial designer: Exactly . user interface: One for like cost and the one with like higher-end industrial designer: Two ? project manager: I industrial designer: Okay . project manager: and then user interface: so that then we can be easily comparing them industrial designer: Yeah project manager: . user interface: or you know find a compromise between both of them , industrial designer: and find maybe a compromise <doc-sep>user interface: And then you can still use the the power button and the mute and the the joystick . What's the R_R_ d user interface: R_R_'s the l the the the the company logo . industrial designer: project manager: So , we have marketing: That's on the rub rubber part . marketing: Do we project manager: We have marketing: Do we change the project manager: Sorry ? marketing: Do we change the the order ? Or are we going to ev evaluate it first ? project manager: Finance is Yeah it's No , first Yes . Well , we , I have thinked a few evaluation criterias , based on our marketing strategy , on the latest trends , on user preferences . project manager: What do you think ? marketing: Yeah , I think it's , well technologically using , it's not it doesn't contain many new features . What not anoth , marketing: industrial designer: not a lot of a lot of remote controls have . user interface: marketing: Well , it's a statement which I disagree with , because we really aim at at young market and I think the way it looked c totally in yellow , it's not really aimed for all customers . user interface: Yeah , but it's it's project manager: So I think it's four . I think if we do this , as it's c it's really orientates on the design . industrial designer: Me too a two , because only the battery is not techin technologically high standard . So , did we do that ? Well , if we go to this fashion , I We still have caused a lot of buttons for the numbers . So , but can it get lost if it's such a thing ? user interface: Yeah , but Yeah . marketing: If we looked at the latest trends for the younger people , and they ate fruit and vegetables , well it has a a nice colour , well compared to food but we didn't We did not paint any fruit and vegetable on it for something like that . industrial designer: project manager: So industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Then we have plastic , wood , rubber . Scroll-wheel , integrated scroll-wheel push push-button , or L_C_D_ display . industrial designer: project manager: So , we have the L_C_D_ We have two scroll-wheels ? Or one ? industrial designer: One . project manager: So , then then then then then then then Then industrial designer: We're not gonna make it . project manager: Oh , no , we industrial designer: I don't think it's a very special colour . project manager: No , it's Sorry ? industrial designer: Yellow ? , is it a special colour ? marketing: For a remote control . So industrial designer: And what if we use only one sort of just only plastic or only rubber ? project manager: That's one Euro . If industrial designer: If we change the joyst the joystick thing into a button up , button down , button right , button left . We industrial designer: And if you say it's just a r normal colour it's a normal colour , wh project manager: Yellow rubber . industrial designer: Normal colour , and the the joystick away , and put the button up , button down , right , left . But if you lose the joystick , it's still an advanced chip ? industrial designer: No . marketing: The advanced chip was for the L_C_D_ wasn't it ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: So , the advanced is for the L_C_D_ and the regular for the joystick . project manager: And what if we lose the L_C_D_ ? industrial designer: If we lose the L_C_D_ , then we have an regular chip and no L_C_D_ . marketing: If industrial designer: So , the T_V_s has to have to be up-to-date . marketing: If we have the n no buttons If we have we have not a joystick but buttons , we would have , we have thirteen Euros ? project manager: yes . What's the normal colour ? user interface: industrial designer: Oh , well that's clear . project manager: Now it's industrial designer: marketing: still , he waited at the project manager: Very good . Well What do you think of it ? marketing: industrial designer: About the project manager: About the project . I I espe I especially liked the the means , the the SMARTboard and Yeah , it It brings up new ideas when you work with with it . marketing: Yeah , I think you have to compare it to if you would have a normal normal project without laptops and without these devices . I think Well , the laptops if you have them out front of you , you sometimes looking at that instead of the presentation . And maybe is then the task of the the project manager to also ask more to the people less talking <doc-sep> , first I'll I'll discuss the buttons we just chose , show you some samples , discuss some colours and design maybe , already . The channels buttons , one to nine , and off zero to nine , and the button to choose higher channels than nine . the volume and channel quadrants , left and right , up and down arrows , to do the volume and channel . industrial designer: user interface: well what's pretty standard is that it's that they're all pretty high marketing: Large . project manager: user interface: So it's it's not really very clear what's the function of that . So , that's project manager: Can you go back one page ? For the menu , what do we use for that ? We don't have buttons for the menu . But user interface: So , how project manager: You have to put it on the user interface: Like this . user interface: well I don't I don't know if we have to discuss this already , or in the next meeting . industrial designer: user interface: But , as we have to to to design the the case and the whole remote control in our our our corporate company colours and the logo , I would recommend a yellow case . user interface: yeah so good good icons on the buttons , and and big buttons is my personal opinion . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: at first we will I will f say something about what younger people want , marketing: Okay . And then , I'll discuss what my opinion is about the costs , about what battery is in it , what kind of buttons also . Maybe it's nice to get a remote control not like all the other ones , straight and flat and long . But to give him the shape of your hand , so you it's easier to use or something like that . And then , I'll have to discuss about the costs of all the things for the remote control . When you want to go m move up , you just scroll up and click on the button , if you wanna see the next , if you wanna see that channel . And that's also easy just w when you have a thing like this , and you get it here . , but then we have just a basic remote control , and I think there are a lot of those things , and people won't buy it any more . And I think our budget is too low to use and an L_C_D_ , and the chip who is more expensive . And maybe it's also then thoughtful if we u use as different kind of shapes for the for remote control , that we then use the primary colours . But , thi i This is with an L_C_D_ ? No , industrial designer: Not with an L_C_D_ . industrial designer: but l when you see a menu on the television , it's like you see one to twenty , you go s scroll up , and push number tw twenty . marketing: can you give an indication in b in the cost difference between the chip with L_C_D_ or without ? industrial designer: I got it on my screen and it was higher . marketing: I think if we have an L_C_D_ , it will also sell a lot better . marketing: And that might bring back the costs industrial designer: But then we'll I think we must discuss who what will be better . Or , a more hand-shaped remote control , with scroll , without L_C_D_ . So , well how we did do that ? , well we made an investigation of the market , by Trendwatchers . And well , what did you find ? , we have two groups , young and trendy , and the old and rich . Well th and the young and trendy , they they starting to like fruit and vegetables as a theme for n clothes , shoes , and also products . So , we m must not just only look at what the trend is now , as it might be totally different next year . How w how we how we make it ? project manager: Yes , a concept on industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Just industrial designer: Shouldn't we first discuss about like what w we all marketing: Yeah . , what do we want ? industrial designer: Yeah , but if I paint with project manager: I'll paint . marketing: We have this , and we had the idea of an a more like sh in the shape of your hand . user interface: industrial designer: M like Yeah I can't dr I can't draw it . user interface: marketing: A g project manager: So , it has to be soft ? marketing: . And , the buttons ? industrial designer: So , you can squeeze in it and Sorry ? project manager: Buttons . industrial designer: user interface: But but i that's the only scroll button on it then ? industrial designer: But now we use one scroll button and the other one is here . marketing: And i if we go to industrial designer: If 'Kay c If we do If we use one , then we'll have just a switch on it , and you'll just switch it , and now it's the sound to switch back user interface: . project manager: It's better in marketing: If we have a menu , how do we choose other options ? industrial designer: with the menu button . Just not like all the other ones , with this thing , and here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow . project manager: But if we don't have a L_C_D_ we don't have a menu . project manager: Yeah , but again maybe th How do we know the T_V_ can handle it ? industrial designer: user interface: project manager: You don't know . It's like some sort of teletext option , but we don't have teletext . industrial designer: And if we put an L_C_D_ thing on it , then the costs will be much higher . industrial designer: And this has to be harder , because when it falls , it mu mu must not burst . user interface: industrial designer: Paint it ? marketing: user interface: industrial designer: With the scroll thing on , like this ? project manager: One with two scroll buttons and one with without . industrial designer: So ? project manager: And the one with with a menu has an L_C_D_ . user interface: But if you put push the the menu button project manager: that's the menu . user interface: Yeah , wh what Yes , but you don't know which of the scroll buttons you have to choose . marketing: industrial designer: But is it easy to use ? When you have it on your left side , and project manager: When it's not too big . marketing: M yeah , maybe it's better if the scroll-wheels are industrial designer: Separate , more separate , h yeah . But would it be easy to use then ? If it's like you have a big project manager: industrial designer: project manager: Very good . marketing: But , industrial designer: Personally , I think two scroll buttons aren't easy to handle . industrial designer: No project manager: Then you go down , you switch , you go into the right , you switch , you go down . But is it Does that break , a joystick ? Or a small one just like in a laptop . industrial designer: A small one like this , like a Nintendo k project manager: No just like in a industrial designer: Playstation thing . project manager: Oh the sh Yeah , but then you can industrial designer: Just like a Playstation thing . project manager: So Maybe , if it's possible , it's not too expensive , I think a joystick is better . industrial designer: No , that's okay , I got marketing: And on the L_C_D_ , how much it costs ? , it costs extra ? industrial designer: they're not in details . project manager: industrial designer: It's more expensive or less expensive , huh ? project manager: Yeah we I think you get it . industrial designer: And that's project manager: And , we If you use the L_C_D_ , we have to industrial designer: the most expensive . So , the shapes of the design depends on the L_C_D_ and But , it has to be small . industrial designer: Or shall we just put it on the pistol thing ? And then just put also on L_C_D_ on it ? project manager: If you have pistol , it L_C_D_'s not easy . industrial designer: If you have a joystick on No , if you have like an a ni a Playstation game controller . But , the easy of user interface: But that's marketing: th the ease of use wasn't the most important aspect of it . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: So marketing: project manager: I think it's clear <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: who's gonna give the prototype presentation ? You two guys ? Okay . The logo is is is pretty obvious to see on the on the remote control , user interface: industrial designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your company f to a level higher . And then we had just two buttons , we place them in the middle , the menu , and for the teletext project manager: Oh no , the the the mute button misses now . user interface: I thought that was th marketing: Alright , I project manager: Do y do you user interface: Oh , the mute button . project manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? industrial designer: But that marketing: Yeah . marketing: Alright , and you gotta point out which is the volume button and which is the programme button . industrial designer: Yes , user interface: Well , yeah mo mo industrial designer: we've disc user interface: Yeah , well most of them are right-handed . industrial designer: Most of the users marketing: Yeah , but you you gotta make it clear on the on user interface: Yeah well , I don't have time in anymore on the industrial designer: Yes , y there there will be a p a little a little P_ on that and a little yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: there are different ways for remote controls to do like marketing: project manager: d I call it teens and twenties . project manager: Yeah , but do we have do we need extra buttons , user interface: project manager: for example some some have to user interface: I think so . marketing: I think industrial designer: Yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be on it , th with the one and a double marketing: Yeah , I think you should add user interface: Zero ? marketing: A cross , or whatever . project manager: Yeah , but you don't you don't actually need them , user interface: May maybe here ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to press marketing: I do know so . user interface: Is it depending on television ? project manager: Nah , I don't think so really , marketing: Yeah . project manager: because you have a I know some remote controls that don't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty a number in the twenty or in the ten . industrial designer: Yes , but but a lot marketing: Yes , but no remote control nowadays are they come with the television . project manager: No , I think I really think it's n marketing: But project manager: because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and then a dash , it's the same thing as when you just push the one , marketing: Yeah . project manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that separate button you also had to apply . industrial designer: Yes , but marketing: Yeah , well but su If industrial designer: some televisions don't accept that that project manager: Yeah , because that's i it's for television . I in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it . project manager: The one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you don't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one . marketing: No , it it it works if you haven't got a special button for it , if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space . project manager: Yeah , but it's exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button . industrial designer: Yes , but some some old televisions you have to click on a special button , then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons . project manager: I think it's exact the same thing when y industrial designer: You want Yes , but some television don't support it . project manager: No , but then they would a would also support that button , because it's the same thing . user interface: But the ex project manager: Listen , with that that's that special but button you're talking about , eh ? That's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv T_V_ that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can still put another number on it . When you don't have that separate button , and you push y one , it's exactly the same thing . Do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had industrial designer: No , marketing: No , s some some televisions need the input first and and you c industrial designer: a remote can project manager: Yeah . That's the same thing as the button with the one and it marketing: No , that's not true . industrial designer: No , user interface: You you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait two seconds or something industrial designer: but marketing: project manager: And it's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one . Yeah , but I m but it's I I know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that doesn't sport these buttons , it still works . industrial designer: Yeah , it project manager: But okay , we we'll impl marketing: No , definitely not . marketing: user interface: I don't know I don't know if if it's it's necessary . project manager: Yeah but marketing: you can access that via zero , and then minus , I guess . What I said about the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true , marketing: Yeah . project manager: but I still think i it it all T_V_s in some ways support it , I don't know . I think it's more c is m maybe we don't we both don't really understand how it i how it really works , industrial designer: No , no . project manager: but I think there's more to in than wha than what you just said . project manager: I do think that m T_V_s support mur multiple kind of remote controls . M industrial designer: some N some televisions when when you want to go further than ten project manager: Th won't work wi with industrial designer: No , you have to you have to give the television two or more signals . industrial designer: When you make the technology that that it will give more signals , it could work , but Just a basic idea of of of the most most y most common and simple operations on the remote . It's here on the user interface: marketing: user interface: Well it industrial designer: user interface: yeah , there's nothing I think it's pretty basic , industrial designer: We came user interface: the the there's no fu industrial designer: Yes . user interface: there's one there's one button , marketing: No nothing really trendy about it . user interface: that's wha there's there's there's one function and that's n the one button when you want to find it . industrial designer: But maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station a bit standard for for the other products we sell , marketing: The button . So maybe we can use the docking station , for example , M_P_ three players or or marketing: Yep . industrial designer: Yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put when the when the when o the the the lowest part of it , when it's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same marketing: Yeah , of course . industrial designer: Yes , but we can make marketing: The technology and the voltage can be the same . marketing: Yeah , that's true , but industrial designer: When when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . Just have to be big enough for the biggest marketing: Yes , but I I g Shouldn't it fall then ? It isn't going to fall down ? That's a bit industrial designer: No , when you make it large enough no it it will not . marketing: yeah , I think industrial designer: But then it's a little bit marketing: No , but if if like this , I'll I'll point it out , if you got a a a base a base like this , industrial designer: But it's just an idea . If you got a base which is as big as this industrial designer: But it's flat it's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this . marketing: Yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can industrial designer: Yes , but when you make a bit of big user interface: But it's it's backwards . project manager: But user interface: marketing: you could make like a hole in it , you know , of in in the industrial designer: Yes , little holer littler , little products go deeper in it . project manager: Well let's ha let's talk about the docking station later , because maybe we have we have to consider the docking station anyway , because we have some cost issues still to come . industrial designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this remote control , because you always will pick up the remote control in the in the smallest area . industrial designer: Then your left thumb of your right thumb is near the programme button , which is the most common used function , and all the other buttons are available for your thumb . That's it ? industrial designer: Yes , on the side there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle there is a hard a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light behind it . industrial designer: Yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make light on it . user interface: lights ? industrial designer: But , it will also use batteries , marketing: Yeah , why not ? industrial designer: and do we want to marketing: Of course . industrial designer: The all the aspects of the interface buttons were project manager: Okay , but in the oh yeah , the colour , because we're gonna use one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , isn't it ? Then we're gonna do the buttons in the i are we're gonna have rubber buttons . project manager: And they're be a they'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side . And I think we should use a a darker colour for the plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff industrial designer: Yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use multiple lights , marketing: Yes . project manager: but may I dunno if that's important , but we'll talk about that later . project manager: the next p y you gonna give a presentation too ? , I have to see the agenda . marketing: We gotta do that on the right the most right-most screen , because the leftmost project manager: Evaluation criteria . Right , the remote is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so I said not ugly instead of ugly . user interface: marketing: what would you say , we we gotta give points to to all of these to evaluate that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys . How do you feel ? project manager: Yeah , I think four maybe would be appropriate , because it's Yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . project manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool . industrial designer: I think I think the the fronts will give it a more less uglier side , because you can make it in your own marketing: How do you guys feel ? The different designs . project manager: Yeah , but we d we didn't we're we're not planning to use fronts , I believe . marketing: And that's still , yeah , is is is a little personal touch , I guess . project manager: Okay , but Oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our marketing: What ? Yeah , wha wha what would you guys think ? Personally . marketing: I was I was thinking about three , so I guess project manager: I was thinking about four , so I think three is user interface: Okay , three . marketing: Antek , you agree ? user interface: Okay yeah , I'll I'll agree . user interface: I'm the I'm the usability , so marketing: I totally agree . project manager: But user interface: Well project manager: Well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something . project manager: And telete industrial designer: Also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits , project manager: Yeah , we don't know if the they're necessary . industrial designer: o they're used marketing: the the yeah , m well , you d you've got a point . project manager: Came a long way , but not we didn't not marketing: Two or three ? user interface: two . industrial designer: But you can't make a remote control without them , marketing: Two ? Antek . user interface: Because we got industrial designer: because marketing: Nay that that that's true , that's true . project manager: No , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is marketing: So we put it on a two ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah yeah , y i it's hard to say from this picture . project manager: But I do think it's more user interface: I will I will make it a three , because yeah . project manager: So so I think maybe it has to score higher on this than on the user interface: Yeah . marketing: I was planning to give it a two , where I give the not ugly project manager: A th a three . project manager: Yeah , but we you mean the rubber stuff ? marketing: Yeah , and the light . user interface: But project manager: And I don't u also it's also really not innovative , industrial designer: Lights lights are marketing: Well , I g project manager: it's more marketing: It's not seven ? project manager: No , six . industrial designer: Because we've tried to make it a little bit innovative , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but it but it project manager: it's depends on the on the maybe marketing: How ? industrial designer: With the lights it it's it's kind of future user interface: project manager: No , I think I think actually it's a seven maybe , but there's nothing innovative about it . , I agree , industrial designer: But still you can retrieve it when it's when it's gone , with the with marketing: m but user interface: Innovative in generally or just f original for marketing: I'll Yeah , you you didn't draw the docking station . project manager: N no no , marketing: Yeah , it it's I think I think with its project manager: t . user interface: A docking station is innova project manager: Yeah , the dock station , but but , I think the the docking station , it's gonna be a kind of a problem . project manager: But marketing: that that's n project manager: Well , let's leave it open for for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . project manager: No ? marketing: No , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so I think we project manager: Okay , for now it's a six or a seven , sev marketing: It's it's a six . project manager: because industrial designer: But the retrieval or the marketing: That m f project manager: Yeah , but I don't I don't know if it's very inno yeah . project manager: Yeah , v industrial designer: Yes , how would you innovate a remote control more ? project manager: Yeah , more through like function T_V_ functionalities and industrial designer: To put it on your head . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: You have must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your marketing: Yeah sure , but project manager: yeah . Yeah , it's marketing: But I d I definitely don't think it's a five , project manager: that's that's think about it la later on marketing: but project manager: and marketing: Remote control is easy to use . project manager: Remote control will be bought by marketing: It will be bought by people under the age of forty . project manager: Well industrial designer: In in and comparing with people of th of the age above ? marketing: No no no . marketing: Antek ? industrial designer: Yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly . marketing: W w industrial designer: When it succeeds , it can get a two , mu marketing: Right , the rem The remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan . marketing: Can we see the slogan ? project manager: Yeah , you can put that on the side if if we would like to . industrial designer: Yes , encrypted with project manager: Yeah , and I will I th still think it's gonna be a two or a three . Because of the slogan project manager: And marketing: Remote control's got a basic design intended for novice users . marketing: Alright , we project manager: Yeah , and that's mostly the inno marketing: yeah . So project manager: Because I I still think that the most important part of this meeting still has marketing: We did a pretty nice job until now . project manager: I'm gonna open the spreadsheet and we're gonna work this out together , because I didn't really fin I have a . project manager: we we indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . , I think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips industrial designer: it's it's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it . But industrial designer: The simple chip is e enough I I think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be marketing: I don't know project manager: Where did we find this information ? Was it marketing: I haven't got an idea on on which we need to use , really . project manager: I think it was your job in the first meet , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems . industrial designer: The the email I got said simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever device , it will cost a a bit more , like I think the advanced chip maybe . Did it point out what to use them for ? industrial designer: Bec No , the they didn't know about a retriever or a speaker in it . When we don't when we leave the retriever and such aside , what industrial designer: Then it's a simple chip . industrial designer: Yes , I I I s I marketing: Alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , I guess . project manager: Yeah , I don't know about the special colour , but I think w industrial designer: Otherwise , you get a standard plastic colour . user interface: I don't marketing: I don't know if it's very special . industrial designer: St project manager: I think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , isn't it ? user interface: Whoa , it's a little project manager: Well that's bit of a problem , industrial designer: Yes . project manager: because I re but I really don't understand that , because I can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it wouldn't be possible according to this sheet . industrial designer: No , it's only when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much . Yeah , it wouldn't marketing: The the the yellow row is the amount of project manager: Fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost I don't know . user interface: Is that one or is that nine buttons ? industrial designer: You can have project manager: And I count them like this . project manager: And plus these two , f plus the mute button , and it's will be eighteen . Y I do I don't get the point , because it's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons . user interface: Is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ? marketing: Fifty cents for one single stupid button . industrial designer: So , whe when you so then it project manager: Well , okay , well well let's make it just one . industrial designer: It's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of project manager: Here , now it's now it's already s marketing: Yeah , exactly . project manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to , user interface: project manager: because else we would really have a problem . It would be impossible to make it marketing: I can't user interface: It's way marketing: I I I couldn't understand it if it was fifty cents per per button . industrial designer: When you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . industrial designer: And then throw it marketing: Yeah , yeah , industrial designer: project manager: This is the most simple user interface: No , no no . industrial designer: But whe project manager: industrial designer: I've seen one one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with page up , page down and volume , project manager: marketing: No , really . user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: but but marketing: Yeah , but I d I wouldn't want to own that . industrial designer: but but it isn't fo Yes , it's for it's li it's just for a little user interface: Yeah , that's no option , that's no option . , I think we should mark the special form thing , because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , I guess . user interface: A special colour , why a special colour ? project manager: Because the buttons will be d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings . user interface: But wha what s what special ? project manager: I think that's the what they mean by a special colour . industrial designer: Otherwise it would be the marketing: I don't think the special form is really true . project manager: I think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that's what we were planning to do , making it industrial designer: Special form also , it says . project manager: Yeah , special material r also , marketing: Is it ? project manager: because i has rubber . project manager: 'Kay , but the problem now is that the There's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents . And and but we don't have to tell it , but what we can say of can almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: It but it then the docking station isn't relevant for this project anymore , but we can marketing: No . project manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we u need . project manager: Yeah , I think that's what what what they mean industrial designer: But for two Euros and thirty cents , we we don't get a docking station . project manager: But can we find out about this chips ? Because when we don't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip . Oh , n oh , still industrial designer: For project manager: oh , it's gonna get more expensive with . marketing: i i if you if it would cost two Euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , we're not gonna add a trip to Hawaii to it . user interface: But what what can we do project manager: Yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . user interface: But what can we do with the simple chip and what's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? project manager: Yeah that's what then what he has to find out . Maybe you can find it in your email right now , then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us . user interface: Regular chip and because we don't have special functions to use in advanced chip , for example . project manager: Yeah , bu bu but when we yeah , but when we skip when we when we don't use the do we're not gonna make the docking station , then we still yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special , marketing: I like the hand dynamo part . marketing: project manager: Yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe marketing: Wi wi without recharge project manager: It still is a special remote control cons you know , wi its form is special and material . marketing: Yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two Euros if you don't put the recharge function in it . project manager: Yeah , but for two Euros , then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip , marketing: Of course it has a shape , but i i project manager: then two Euros isn't even possible . marketing: Why should that not be possible ? project manager: Yeah , then because then we'd thirty cents left . marketing: No , for for the for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip . project manager: Yeah , but yeah , I don't know , because maybe d yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip . If we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f project manager: Yeah , and w and and we need f marketing: Yes . industrial designer: It isn't in my information , I I I've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about advanced chips or project manager: You can look at it for s presentation . industrial designer: I've got here in user interface: No no , they were mine , yeah . industrial designer: But that was my second project manager: Yeah , it was your second marketing: It's already open . industrial designer: project manager: this is n this is not this n user interface: Was it working design or components design ? marketing: Sorry . project manager: You know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires industrial designer: Ah , okay . project manager: it s only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . project manager: And what's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? industrial designer: Maybe you can say against the remote page f page up , page down . user interface: Yeah , lights , yeah , there's no marketing: Well , there're three , I guess . user interface: Can we do it wi within two two Euro ? marketing: I think we can make a docking station . project manager: Okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? But it isn't it hasn't got any innovative technology , we aren't gonna apply any innovated innovative te technology anyway , I think . I don't I don't see any possibility to do so , because it would wouldn't fit our defi design philosophy . Instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to know , so y so people wouldn't have to worry about their batteries anymore . marketing: M bu project manager: Maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it industrial designer: But but sometimes you put a project manager: Yeah , you leave the p yeah , I know , but still I they will think about that . if you u industrial designer: Kinetics aren't nowadays only used in watches and that's because you're always walking . project manager: The it's made for s people well , the they don't if it was r useless technology , they wouldn't put it as a possibility . project manager: And i it it th th the the target marketing: Or the hand dynamo dynamo project manager: the target group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking . project manager: Because I think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic power source , then it would be this one . Because it's one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot Hey that maybe that's cool that's a cool thing about it , you know . marketing: Yeah , but but if we ca project manager: I've never seen it before in a remote control . project manager: Yeah , we can als or also m we we can make one user interface: Wow , w why no li marketing: We can make a docking station for two thirty . project manager: we can still make user interface: Look at now , we got two industrial designer: Fo for a docking station . Ca can't we make a docking station of that ? marketing: We can make a docking station . project manager: Yeah , but be serious , then the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control . industrial designer: Wi with a button to user interface: Well , we we industrial designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep . project manager: Yeah , but we we don't inc we haven't looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff . industrial designer: Look at the case , project manager: Oh , because we industrial designer: the case the case of of of user interface: Yeah , then we don't have any innovation things . maybe it with the kinetic thing , I think we could do do a compromise with the kim kinetic thing . user interface: marketing: No , sta yeah industrial designer: No , then we have to sell it for thirty Euros . project manager: Yeah , I don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it like a I I I I still fee I also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: Yeah , and it is also not a good it's not you have to really do it only kinetic , you don't want it to think about batteries anymore . marketing: And I think only industrial designer: Yes , but when it's then when it marketing: Yeah , but only kinetic , then you gotta project manager: No no . industrial designer: then you have to shake it and all when it's when it's empty . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: When you use it your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it industrial designer: You asked for three d No , that's n that's not true . Becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it industrial designer: Yes , solar cells are also stated . project manager: Yeah , m but a w n a calculator also works on r on solar cells . industrial designer: Why don't we use solar cells then ? project manager: Because I think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when I move my remote control around and industrial designer: That's true . I guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating . project manager: Okay , then we d Okay , well y we don't have to do it , but what that would just have a lack of key features , you know . You have to make people buy it and We can really can do the docking thing , it's not yeah , we can do it , but it's would be a easy way out . project manager: Okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something , industrial designer: The c The case the case alone is is is project manager: because we only have a minute left or so . Okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it's this is then then our concept is ready . user interface: It w it won't tell , but industrial designer: But now marketing: No , this not gonna sell . marketing: We come back tomorrow , okay ? project manager: No no there's still there's still someth concept and something special left . project manager: we're gonna it's gonna excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and looks and feel . Yeah , and I would li I would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and I know it will work , but it's it's an They're they're not putting technologies on this , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen . industrial designer: Why not a hand dynamo then ? user interface: project manager: Okay , well we leave it like this . project manager: Okay , project e industrial designer: Is this it ? project manager: well , we were gonna what look take a look at the last sheet . I don't see why , but industrial designer: Where's the champagne ? marketing: I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest . user interface: Can we can't we do it here ? marketing: I don't think so

The team made decisions regarding the material, functionality, and design of the device. They opted to use either rubber or plastic as the material, discarding the use of titanium. The joystick was removed, but the LCD and advanced chips were retained to appeal to the young market. The team also decided to use a normal color to reduce costs. In terms of the battery, they agreed that one battery was sufficient and decided against using kinetic energy due to cost and practicality concerns. They chose one advanced chip and a combination of rubber and plastic for the material, with a small part made of a special material like titanium. The teletext was removed, and a docking station was added. The team also decided that the infrared LED was unnecessary. They later realized that regular chips were suitable for the scroll-button and only the LCD display required advanced chips, resulting in cost savings. Solar cells were incorporated into the battery. The project manager aimed to sell the device internationally, with a selling price goal of 25 Euros and a profit aim of fifty million Euros. The team aimed to sell four million units and achieve a fifty percent profit margin. The project manager questioned whether the design could be implemented within a budget of twelve Euros and fifty cents. The industrial designer mentioned that programming the keys was affordable, but the feasibility of the ASR system was uncertain, suggesting the need for compromise. The industrial designer and the user interface designer were tasked with providing two designs with exact cost prices for evaluation. The first design met the budget requirements, so the team focused on the second design to see if a combination of the two could create an innovative design within budget. To reduce costs, the project manager suggested using normal chips instead of advanced ones in exchange for the speech recognition function. The special color was reserved for the case, which was designed with curved sides and top and bottom. There was a debate about eliminating the number of buttons or the LCD display, but it was determined that removing the buttons would complicate device usage. After considering cost, the team decided to discard both the LCD display and the speech recognition functions.

What were the team's discussions and decisions regarding the product cost, project plan, target revenue, and cost control?

I have a a spreadsheet where we can calculate our prices for every aspect of of what we've made , given our options . And we have the company logo here and this will be the infrared here industrial designer: The L_E_D_ . user interface: and this'll be the power point , the on off button kind project manager: Oh . marketing: What was the where's the L_E_D_ ? user interface: It's in the middle of one of the little R_s . user interface: So you don't have to Oh that was a mistake , wasn't it ? project manager: Okay . user interface: And this is just if you've got like eleven or twelve or thirt the plus . industrial designer: So one plus one would be eleven , user interface: You can go one , three or something . You press a plus button ? user interface: You press that first and then you go one three yeah . user interface: Well we just thought , we have all the numbers here , so we wanted something representative of numbers larger than ten and project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah because if you on your average remote , if you press one twice you just go to or say you wanted channel twelve , you press one , and then you go to channel one , and then two then you'd just go to channel two , instead of twelve . industrial designer: So if you did like one plus two you could go to channel twelve , or two plus two is channel twenty two . project manager: But Would you have to go zero plus one if you wanted to go to channel one or two ? user interface: No no , th all that's why we have all these numbers . project manager: Yeah I know , but if if I wanna go to say number like sixty five , channel sixty five , if I press the six it'll go to channel six , and then I'll press the plus , and then it'll go to six and then put the five and it'll go to sixty five ? marketing: Sixty . user interface: I I well it doesn't we haven't really s I would've thought you pressed the plus first and then the six five , marketing: user interface: but she says plus press which industrial designer: Well I don't mind , we can further define that . user interface: what do you think is simpler ? project manager: I th user interface: It's a industrial designer: I wouldn't have thought it'd be a problem that it went to channel six first , in like on the way to channel sixty five . If you don't put it marketing: So as long as you hit them dada industrial designer: Yeah . So industrial designer: marketing: Was there so on the top there is volume and industrial designer: And channel , user interface: A channel . industrial designer: which is so you could just go like that without thinking about it , like marketing: Channel up volume up . user interface: Just so we can flick project manager: Right , where where's the power button ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: because we thought that's kind of a more natural movement than just going like that with your thumb . industrial designer: But yeah , no it's a different movement marketing: industrial designer: so yeah . industrial designer: and the feel of it , we've made this out of Play Doh , which is representing the , you know , the rubber , and the spongy rubberness . industrial designer: 'cause it was said before in the material specification that this the this anti-R_S_I_ material is often used in stress balls so this has got a you know a bit of give to it , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: How it fits in the palm of your hand ? marketing: project manager: My goodness . industrial designer: O Okay , as for the colours , we were presented with a limited range of colours for this prototype . industrial designer: But we're thinking that , seeing as we're having it in interchangeable casing anyway , that this is not necessarily a representation of the true colours that we would necessarily use . and we're thinking to carry-on with the fruit and vegetable theme , the colour combination just could just be named after different fruit , like banana could be black and yellow , watermelon red and green , project manager: Oh right . industrial designer: or vanilla might be the most popular if it just blends in user interface: 'Cause it'd be quite subtle and industrial designer: more settled cream instead of the others are all a bit garish . industrial designer: Banana's more representative of our colour scheme , like the company the yellow and black . user interface: marketing: project manager: industrial designer: watermelon , you know , m probably appealing to the project manager: Kinda Christmas , you know . industrial designer: Apple green , brown , more kinda trendy , you know , khaki project manager: Yeah . user interface: The pomegranate's kinda girly and funky kind of , project manager: Cool . user interface: and then the vanilla's more for the more sophisticated customer who just wants something that fits in with all decor . yeah we thought of the components it was definitely a focus of ergonomics and just a single ha handheld device , you don't need to use both hands , one hand to hold this and type in with the other , you can just use your thumb . industrial designer: as we said the rubber's probably used for comfort and anti-R_S_I_ and that's about it . And so now that we've we have a prototype , we need to go over the finances and seeing if this prototype matches what our budget can handle . marketing: You want the project manager: Do you need to do a presentation first ? marketing: I don't know what order it goes in . industrial designer: go project manager: What time is it anyw industrial designer: project manager: Oh yeah sorry you're right . marketing: Okay now I think for this one I could Would you guys prefer use the whiteboard or mayb maybe I'll just do it on right on the screen where you can see it . , we're gonna be doing an evaluation report together based on the protoptype that we've just seen . and looking looking back at my notes from our both our conceptual and our functional meetings , I made a list of what our original requirements and goals were , back to our kick-off meeting this morning . , and we'll evaluate as to whether we've s done what we set out to do . and we're gonna do it on a one to seven scale where one is true and seven is false . I can't change it so I'm g I'm gonna ask you to push it down once . th the colours we were given for making the prototype aren't the colours that I think we would've necessarily chosen . industrial designer: It's not the kind of ooh at all sleek project manager: Oh you were only given red and black ? industrial designer: red , black and yellow , and orange . user interface: Yeah so industrial designer: user interface: not very sleek and we don't wanna go for black because most remote controls are black or grey . industrial designer: But if you can imagine that in like a s just a maybe a kind of pale metallic-y finish or something user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: diff if you can visualise this in nice colours I think it would look quite fancy . marketing: It's a two ? industrial designer: For the marketing: Okay , user interface: Fanciness . Okay so question number two was is it techn technologically innovative ? So I know we have the kinetic energy which is very innovative . industrial designer: The L_E_D_ use isn't particularly innovative marketing: Isn't industrial designer: and we don't have any scroll buttons , it's all pushbuttons , user interface: . industrial designer: there's no L_C_D_ control , so if we're thinking about the rest of the market , it's sort of probably halfway . And I think it it's tough to say because we were we didn't want it to be any more innovative than this , because then that would've defeated the purpose . project manager: Th marketing: there'll be s we have to work out the number the plus system . user interface: But the industrial designer: Not in user interface: Remember the management said that it it had to be prominent . What where's it gonna sit in your living room ? Is it not gonna fall off the arm of the sofa ? project manager: Maybe if the bottom was just sort of flat , and then the rest is like marketing: Yeah the bottom could be like ch chopped a bit . marketing: Maybe , it could it could be on the bottom , so you wouldn't loo like if it's flat here , so it sits up . So , is this a good-looking remote ? Would we wanna show it off to our friends ? user interface: Three . project manager: I think , it was another colour and it was like I think it'd look okay . marketing: Yeah ? industrial designer: I would definitely go for that rather than like your average plain old remote like that , marketing: I gue yeah , it's personal taste , but user interface: Yeah . What's will people be willing to spend twenty five Euros on this product ? Remember that eighty percent of users were willing to spend more money when a remote control looked fancy . user interface: I think we have to market it in the right way , that to say that it is simplistic . user interface: So people don't just see it and think , this is so simplistic , I don't want to spend twenty five Euros . industrial designer: And the kinetic energy , shaker-style-y , whoo , user interface: And the kinetic energy part . You're marketing: No , I guess , I don't know much about the remote control industry , how much your average sells for , user interface: use the zero . marketing: but I know I am , aren't I ? user interface: I think they're about ten po ten pound , aren't they ? About ten pounds . marketing: So yeah I think with a good marketing scheme and the personalisation options , it'll user interface: project manager: Yeah . Can someone read it out ? industrial designer: Does this prototype match the operating behaviour of the average user . industrial designer: Because marketing: we said industrial designer: yeah , because the most accessible buttons are the volume and the and the channel-changing . user interface: marketing: Yeah I guess the I think the key word there is average , 'cause there were some people that used the video input and sound and stuff . C Heather could you push it down ? Will this remote control be easy to find when lost ? Remember that fifty percent of users lose their remote regularly . marketing: Now is there the is the alarm system still was it implemented ? user interface: Yeah the bu when you press the alarm system , the lights behind the and it'll vibra industrial designer: It Yeah marketing: industrial designer: l lights on and , or flash as well . But it's not obviously obvious from the outside that that's gonna happen 'cause you can't s particularly see an alarm . If you user interface: But both marketing: project manager: You press the button it makes a noise right ? marketing: It turns into a duck and starts quacking . user interface: I'd be tempted to industrial designer: Well the thing is , if it was had an alarm system , marketing: industrial designer: when it when it lights up as we it could light up when the alarm went . user interface: It would have to be in the market project manager: I though w it was gonna make a noise . user interface: marketing: We can give it a one , because compared to every other remote ever m ever made , this one will be easier to find . Will it be easy to learn how to use this remote when brand new ? Remember that thirty four percent of users usually found it difficult . marketing: So it has to be yeah , it's eas they'll pick it up and they'll know what to do . user interface: So the plu the plus w once that's written down on the page that'll be really simple , marketing: The plus thing needs to be worked on . industrial designer: Yeah user interface: won't it ? industrial designer: I think marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: just because it's we've decided to reduce it down to the basic buttons , I think that in itself makes it so much easier to use . marketing: Do Does it make more sense for the middle one to be an just an enter button ? So then you would have to push two buttons every time at least . user interface: That kind of annoys me though , when it's zero six when you have to press marketing: industrial designer: . marketing: will it minimise the effects of R_S_I_ , which was repeated strain injury ? industrial designer: Injury . It's like right in the user interface: But if you're zapping project manager: Your thumb might get a little bit industrial designer: Yeah , that's what I was thinking . I don't think it will f industrial designer: We may have to do some more research into other strain injuries that we don't know about . marketing: It's soft , project manager: And that's kind of what the marketing: and user interface: . project manager: the PowerPoint slide thing said would be good for R_S_I_ , marketing: And people could industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: so maybe it is but marketing: I don't know what other options there are . marketing: So , one or two do you think ? industrial designer: I think user interface: I I'd say t industrial designer: yeah , I think too . marketing: Now is the colour gonna be there even if it's like vanilla ? user interface: N We we can't really do that marketing: Is the yellow user interface: because for example on the banana theme we can't have it as being yellow . marketing: It sounds like the colour's something that we project manager: Well , yeah the colours are yellow and grey . marketing: But the yell yeah d yellow's ugly though , user interface: Yeah that's right , marketing: depending on the user interface: we didn't even rea marketing: So I think we'll have to talk to our executive managers , and see if we can get away with just the R_R_ . user interface: or or like that's grey , and it wouldn't be that expensive to have a little bit of metal . marketing: Okay So , do you think that's more of a three then ? Three , four ? industrial designer: Four I think . marketing: Well we have good reasons for it , so we but we can still put a a four ? industrial designer: Okay . , did we stay true to our motto and put the fashion into electronics ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: Current trends of fruits and veggies , desire for sponginess . project manager: But maybe more like two 'cause there's no like pictures of fruit , it's just sort of naming it by a fruit . Okay , so that's something that's kind of in the making too , like maybe it'll become more project manager: That's fashionable in itself to have interchangeable plates . industrial designer: The thing is , I think if somebody saw that and you said what was that inspired from , I don't know if you'd instantly say mango . user interface: project manager: Alright so based on this evaluation , do we average them out sorta thing ? industrial designer: marketing: Yes we do . marketing: Okay , so our average there , five , six , eight , ten , eleven , twelve , thirteen , fifteen , nineteen , twenty one , divided by eleven project manager: One point nine or something ? user interface: It's industrial designer: It's marketing: is user interface: Yeah . user interface: I got marketing: Does that seem right then ? user interface: Yeah , 'cause we've a four to bring down . industrial designer: Do we have an online calculator ? project manager: I'm attempting to do that right now . Alright , now with that over and done with , our next step is to see if we are under budget . So in our shared folder , if everyone could go there right now , I'm going to steal a cable . project manager: it's it's user interface: Is that the project document ? project manager: it's an Excel file . industrial designer: It says it project manager: 'Kay so far I've added what I think or what is going on ? Great . marketing: Oh is it locked 'cause I'm in it ? project manager: I dunno . user interface: Are we using that ? project manager: I guess we should do it just for one kind . So we need to do a product evaluation , again , user interface: project manager: which is probably I dunno . A different extension of a industrial designer: Of the actual project rather than the product ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: A project ? Is is project manager: Yeah 'cause we're talking about leadership , teamwork . Alright so Do you guys feel like there was room for creativity ? industrial designer: I think we were pushed . project manager: Pushed for creativity ? user interface: industrial designer: we weren't really given a lot of time , or materials , yeah , to go about our design task . project manager: I think so as like but you were supposed to have creativ industrial designer: Yeah . Like we were very creative in in coming up with an idea I guess , but m industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Well we were just limited by resources really and like if we had decided to use the L_C_D_ screen , and like solar power backup and everything , then we wouldn't have been able to afford that . user interface: marketing: project manager: Leadership ? Is this me being like , guys do you like me ? . industrial designer: and also our personal coach helped us along the way , user interface: marketing: project manager: Yeah . user interface: project manager: Alright how were our means ? industrial designer: project manager: We needed more Play Doh colours . industrial designer: Yeah and more Play Doh , marketing: industrial designer: 'cause that was all the red we had . industrial designer: So even if we wanted to make a bigger prototype , we wouldn't have been able to . project manager: marketing: Oh really ? project manager: But ever everything else was satisfactory ? marketing: Okay . marketing: The industrial designer: I think the only thing was having to remember to you know to tick the okays marketing: Yeah . project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: I'm actually not sure if I've saved my presentations . user interface: industrial designer: Well I think we've all learnt stuff from each other , marketing: industrial designer: like the n user interface: Yeah . project manager: ? marketing: Yeah well I guess we really it we bounced off of each other , which was cool . marketing: Like based on marketing stuff and then you'd say something about interface and industrial designer: Yeah . Each other's marketing: Oh does it have smart materials by the way ? industrial designer: Sorry ? marketing: Does it have smart materials ? project manager: . industrial designer: Well , did it come into the into user interface: If if it if it industrial designer: I dunno if we counted that in the costs . marketing: By watching T_V_ ? project manager: in such a way that I have no idea <doc-sep>user interface: But we don't we don't we do think it's well what if with ease of use , w which prefers the which the the customer of the user prefers . And after a while they start to develop some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . industrial designer: They n they need to understand what how to change channels and change the volume , so it's easier for them project manager: Could could I see the scroll bar as as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well , industrial designer: Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's project manager: th maybe you could could industrial designer: Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our . And and the case is is rubber ? industrial designer: Yes , rubber ? project manager: And the buttons ? user interface: Plastic or rubber . project manager: and the colouring ? industrial designer: yellow with project manager: with with grey or black . project manager: Okay , user interface: project manager: we'll we'll come to that later . industrial designer: But marketing: Well , you could use two of them to programme the channels on the two channel button , industrial designer: Yes , but it marketing: 'cause you have to assign two channel new channels . industrial designer: Or not ? project manager: M m but maybe you do want a programme button to for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition . project manager: Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it you'd disable it with a little beep and and industrial designer: Yes . project manager: Okay , well marketing: So project manager: the then we'll switch to my presentation . project manager: Yeah , it's it's w way above above the the the twelve Euro fifty . user interface: Why does the price and and the s oh , one exa project manager: Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum . if you would user interface: And and does it project manager: if you look at the w w w what we could do to make it more to make it just between the twelve Euro fifty , then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , by not using the voice recognition feature , industrial designer: project manager: I I guess if we leave the if we leave this one out , user interface: So the button we can use plastic . user interface: And the pla And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas instead of rubber . industrial designer: Well , b basically it when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in an enhanced case with these dull functions . Maybe we should look at an focus on another industrial designer: So Type of m maybe another market segment . project manager: Yeah , m maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy basic industrial designer: Yeah . Although I think we yeah , but we could still make a remote control that ap applies more to young people by giving it another colour already . project manager: so it is possible to make a device that attracts a little bit more to young people . industrial designer: Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good . industrial designer: So project manager: Well industrial designer: Is it fancy ? project manager: I d it is it is marketing: industrial designer: marketing: Yay . industrial designer: I think I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing the casing . It would be even more project manager: You like tita user interface: industrial designer: oh , you really like titanium . user interface: project manager: Yeah , I know , marketing: Is it project manager: but but it but that's fancy in the way fancy has has a lot of industrial designer: It has to do with fashion , I guess . user interface: It's trendy trendy , fun industrial designer: So do marketing: And w user interface: yeah . user interface: It's not the ultimate fancy two , but industrial designer: I think I th I think it would have been I would have think it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar . user interface: Yeah , but that's sti that's industrial designer: So user interface: Looking at the user needs , we only don't we don't have the double-curved case . marketing: Okay , and was it innovative ? user interface: project manager: Well , marketing: project manager: with the voice recognition feature and user interface: But that's not in it . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic energy source , but it's it's way too marketing: Yeah , and project manager: That would have been a thrill . industrial designer: yes , but marketing: So also a two ? industrial designer: I think it's a two . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . industrial designer: So It's maybe it's not very easy for user interface: Wouldn't give it more . two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? ease of use does not only apply to the most basic functions . You're right in that , but I I guess an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use , project manager: Yeah . project manager: So I could make it e easy ? user interface: If you make it a four it will be three in general . Three ? marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: Two ? marketing: two , two , three project manager: No , user interface: And a three ? project manager: I haven't said anything yet . project manager: Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . industrial designer: That's not even project manager: Does it will so it will be a two point five . marketing: industrial designer: But that's not possible to fill in , project manager: Yes , it is . It's not about the content , it's about okay , is it easy to f Yeah , definitely . user interface: we haven't re re really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find . user interface: Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker industrial designer: Yes . Maybe you have to programme it once , so to that l respond to a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . marketing: project manager: Well , I industrial designer: So , I th project manager: we should not stay too long on this subject because of the time , but I personally give it a one . There are cases in which the outside casing is can be how d how do you prono is is moldable . user interface: Was it one of our options ? industrial designer: No , it's not one of our option , marketing: No . project manager: No okay , but but user interface: So , in the in industrial designer: but when you look in the market , when you look marketing: this this was a most spongy option . industrial designer: but that's not that's not what they are talking about , I think . user interface: But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could . industrial designer: Yes , but it's not good enough , project manager: I'll give it a one . industrial designer: You take one ? What do you give it ? marketing: Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could project manager: Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig a number . I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . user interface: project manager: Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ? marketing: Well , the basic layout doesn't offem offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . project manager: What what we didn't talk about is user interface: Yeah , but it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's If you ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is it has all the features a normal remote has . Bec because you can we didn't talk about it , but you do have remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . project manager: you place a a regular remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the the the the signals . project manager: So you could enter any comment you like , as long it's able to as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . But that that's its power , I guess , because a regular programmable remote control contains , well , really a lot of buttons . marketing: I think think a one , 'cause v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like industrial designer: Yes . I I've I think we've succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price . project manager: The product is is is b high qua has a high quality and and is advanced . But whether or not our clients are are willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is well , is not sure . user interface: But we could couldn't what what's the selling price ? Fifty ? project manager: Twenty five Euros . industrial designer: That's quite ex user interface: That's price , but w w industrial designer: well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , a Phillips remote control , y you pay industrial designer: Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . user interface: Yeah , I kn I know from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders . project manager: Bu but well yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros . industrial designer: And it's easier to use because those remote controls don't offer voice recognition project manager: . What did you think about the process , the project process ? Ruud ? marketing: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Try to translate that . project manager: Any any other , Roo ? user interface: Yeah , I think industrial designer: Well , I think marketing: Ye project manager: Roo . industrial designer: So And the the the well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too the the choice of components was way too narrow . industrial designer: So there was not really a process of project manager: So we could we we could be we could've been creative . industrial designer: We we thought of possibilities who are not possible with the the current offer of manufacturing components . project manager: Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ? user interface: No , no . project manager: I think so too , it's it's it's of course a laboratory environment . So user interface: marketing: project manager: Yeah , but but si w w w when taken in account the the situation , I think we performed pretty well . project manager: Because of the response industrial designer: It it's project manager: or user interface: Response industrial designer: The response is very slow user interface: and industrial designer: and the possibilities are very limited . The p the pointing of the pen is not the place where it it writes its where it marketing: Draws . project manager: Okay , so user interface: So project manager: it it had to be better aligned , or what's the word ? user interface: You to take in account that your you m project manager: yeah . user interface: It's too slow project manager: It it was calibrated just before this meeting . industrial designer: It is ? project manager: So it's not the calibration , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: Ruud , w did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ? marketing: No . user interface: If it has O_C_R_ , I think I would use , but I I just took notes for myself and and and that's it . user interface: So industrial designer: But I think it's a great solution for for a known problem , writing down some notes , some some inf information , and then forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information . industrial designer: Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way . What w Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ? marketing: Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit , project manager: Yeah . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or the other way around , that you could show but m industrial designer: Yes , yes . project manager: I know , but user interface: So it's almost project manager: I know , but we couldn't use that feature , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: And and w you were when you're using Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , which you can use for drawing . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: we're done , we're finished , I believe . Thank you for your industrial designer: But how much time did we get for this meeting ? project manager: Forty minutes . project manager: So , we can redesign our I would like to industrial designer: Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . industrial designer: No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market <doc-sep>user interface: ? marketing: industrial designer: I'm afraid I'm a bit too slow . project manager: we're supposed to develop a new remote control , that's both original , trendy and user-friendly . project manager: then we do some in individual work , then we have a meeting to discuss the results , etcetera etcetera . project manager: Okay and in the format menu you can select colour and line width , etcetera etcetera . industrial designer: Different pen widths , how do you do that ? user interface: project manager: with the format menu . project manager: And what's that supposed to be ? industrial designer: Are you serious ? marketing: Should it be one project manager: Oh yeah . marketing: so y you must save it at the end project manager: Yeah marketing: and then project manager: you can press the next button , which is yeah . user interface: industrial designer: How much time do we have to draw anyway ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: What is it ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: It's a it's a giraffe . Yeah I see a long neck user interface: Yeah , that's a project manager: but marketing: It's more like a dinosaur . user interface: industrial designer: Is this part of our a acquai or introduction to each other ? project manager: Yeah sorry , introduction and get acquainted marketing: project manager: and industrial designer: Alright . user interface: project manager: Yeah it's a bit slow , marketing: It's not that fast . user interface: 'Cause it's so project manager: You were slow too user interface: 'cause it's green . marketing: So some other line width industrial designer: Do you have a turtle pet ? project manager: user interface: marketing: No . marketing: Yeah ? project manager: Yeah not exactly legs but More like fins marketing: industrial designer: Stumpy stuff . user interface: marketing: or project manager: There's a a gum , marketing: Yeah ? Alright . industrial designer: And why did you choose this animal ? marketing: So project manager: He said it was slow . marketing: A cat who had an accident or project manager: Why a cat ? industrial designer: yeah I dunno . Yeah I'm not so good at drawing with this kind of project manager: The pen , industrial designer: st Oh shit . It's my favourite pet animal , 'cause they're cute , they're independent and cuddly , I dunno . industrial designer: Or do I need to use more colours and project manager: I think it's okay . Okay industrial designer: So we have to s project manager: now it's time for some discussion . project manager: did any of you already do some work on this part or industrial designer: Well I started making an overview for myself , what I had to do , 'cause we have three design steps and in every step I have a s specific task to perform or whatever . industrial designer: So I had to , I dunno , make an overview for myself about what I have to do , project manager: industrial designer: and kind of let it work in to get ideas about well how I have to fill it . And do you have any ideas about the product so far ? industrial designer: Well I started I started with the first phase , I think was the functional . industrial designer: And let's see I had to focus on the working design , which you said . industrial designer: and we ye use button presses to activate or deactivate certain functions on the T_V_ . Yeah I kept it global 'cause that it activates or deactivates specific functions , user interface: Okay , yeah . project manager: and what did the Marketing Expert do ? marketing: well from a marketing perspective , well the function des design phase consists out of the user requirements . marketing: what needs and desires are to be fulfilled ? So there are a few means to reach that by by doing research to see what existing products are there out in the market . marketing: especially what are their shortcomings ? Are there any new functions which can be added to our product ? project manager: For example for well what kind of applications do current remote controls support , and what are f featur features of current and future televisions ? project manager: Yep . What w what would they like to see on a new remote control ? especially for future users , project manager: Okay . marketing: I'm thinking of early adopters , because they they use new technology first , project manager: marketing: and they play with a lot of tools and stuff so maybe they have some good ideas to to add . project manager: but have you any idea so far as what the user requirements are ? marketing: No n not specifically . user interface: I got some requirements marketing: and project manager: Yeah ? user interface: it has it has to be user-friendly . user interface: really easy to use buttons , not not very small buttons , but not the the also the big big buttons , but just normal buttons . project manager: what do you mean by that ? user interface: the distance from your television to your remote control has to be , yeah yeah , quite a big distance . project manager: user interface: Are you going to put the the notes on the project manager: Yeah , in the project folder . industrial designer: Well no I'm just a bit wondering what we're gonna do the next session ? user interface: Yeah . Because then we have a user interface: After that we are going to the conceptual project manager: Yeah . project manager: Y you do some individual work , marketing: We're just working the three phases . And then I have to prepare I have to defend our design , user interface: project manager: so make it good . marketing: Better make it industrial designer: I am gonna work on the conceptual design already 'cause yeah it's fairly important to know what kind of components we want to put in . industrial designer: Do we , is it gonna be a multimedia control centre ? Do we want to be able to use the video recorder with it ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: I would first m industrial designer: So if I don't know what components to put in , it's kind of hard . marketing: Yeah project manager: You can always add a few marketing: well like l li like some like some some remotes who are out there , which I know , there's one button which is very easy to switch between devices . marketing: So you can switch to your video project manager: marketing: and then the same buttons control your video . marketing: And another function I'll think of switch to your media centre , because that's getting very popular . industrial designer: Yeah so marketing: And then use your Windows media centre under your T_V_ with the same remote control . industrial designer: Yeah I I know what you mean , but you'll ne need several other buttons for a video player . industrial designer: And and for a t teletext you need additional buttons as well , marketing: No . project manager: We could just start with the assumption that's only for T_V_ and video

The Project Manager addressed the team regarding the price issue and the financial goal, setting the unit price at 25 Euros. It was determined that the production cost of each remote control would be 12.5 Euros, and the team would need to achieve sales amounting to 50 million Euros. Individual tasks were assigned to team members, with the Industrial Designer responsible for creating a working design based on a rough plan for the first phase, and the User Interface team tasked with specifying the technical functions. Market research was assigned to the Marketing team. To control expenses, the team made several decisions. Firstly, they considered the use of kinetic technology, which was deemed too costly at three Euros. Instead, they opted for a combination of rubber and plastic for the device, using one color for the case and another for the buttons. The team also agreed to add a special form for the case, as the push button interface was inexpensive. They decided against incorporating a joystick, LED display, or advanced chips, allowing them to keep the budget under control. The Project Manager revealed that the current standards would result in a cost of 22 Euros, prompting the team to eliminate certain characteristics that would not add much value. While this could make the device appear dull and simple, the group believed that they could raise the selling price to 50 Euros.

What were the key points discussed by the group regarding pricing, individual task assignment, product cost, and production costs of the product?

grad e: Hello ? professor a: So everybody everybody 's on ? phd d: Today 's professor a: Yeah . professor a: eh e and I guess Chuck you weren't there either , so the phd b: I was there . professor a: Oh you were there ? phd b: With Hynek ? professor a: Yeah . professor a: What was the w what was the downsampling problem again ? phd c: So we had professor a: I forget . phd c: So the fact that there there is no low - pass filtering before the downsampling . phd c: There is because there is LDA filtering but that 's perhaps not the best w m professor a: Depends what it 's frequency characteristic is , yeah . So we discussed about this , about the professor a: Was there any conclusion about that ? phd c: " try it " . So again this is th this is the downsampling of the the feature vector stream phd c: . professor a: and Yeah I guess the the LDA filters they were doing do have let 's see , so the the the feature vectors are calculated every ten milliseconds so the question is how far down they are at fifty fifty hertz . Does anybody know what the frequency characteristic is ? phd c: We don't have yet professor a: Oh OK . And the third point was the , yeah , the on - line normalization where , well , the recursion f recursion for the mean estimation is a filter with some kind of delay professor a: Yeah . For this , the conclusion of Hynek was , well , " we can try it but " professor a: - huh . professor a: Try try what ? phd c: So try to take into account the delay of the recursion for the mean estimation . And so while discussing about these these LDA filters , some i issues appeared , like well , the fact that if we look at the frequency response of these filters it 's , well , we don't know really what 's the important part in the frequency response and there is the fact that in the very low frequency , these filters don't don't really remove a lot . and that 's probably a reason why , yeah , on - line normalization helps because it it , professor a: Right . Yeah , but perhaps everything could should be could be in the filter , the the mean normalization and Yeah . phd c: And this was this LDA tuning perhaps and Hynek proposed again to his TRAPS , so . phd c: Yeah , professor a: I g I guess the key thing for me is is figuring out how to better coordinate between the two sides phd c: . professor a: I was talking with Hynek about it later and the the sort of had the sense sort of that that neither group of people wanted to to bother the other group too much . And and I don't think anybody is , you know , closed in in their thinking or are unwilling to talk about things but I think that you were sort of waiting for them to tell you that they had something for you and and that and expected that they would do certain things and they were sor they didn't wanna bother you phd c: professor a: and they were sort of waiting for you and and and we ended up with this thing where they they were filling up all of the possible latency themselves , and they just had hadn't thought of that . it 's true that maybe maybe no one really thought about that that this latency thing would be such a a strict issue phd c: Yeah . Well professor a: in in the other phd c: Yeah I don't know what happened really , but professor a: Yeah . Because , well , we discussed about that about this problem and they told us " well , we will do all that 's possible to have enough space for a network " but then , yeah , perhaps they were too short with the time and professor a: Then they couldn't . Well maybe we should just you 're you 're bus other than that you folks are busy doing all the all the things that you 're trying that we talked about before right ? And this machines are busy and you 're busy phd c: Yeah . professor a: Let 's let 's , I think that as as we said before that one of the things that we 're imagining is that there there will be in the system we end up with there 'll be something to explicitly do something about noise phd c: professor a: in addition to the other things that we 're talking about and that 's probably the best thing to do . And there was that one email that said that it sounded like things looked very promising up there in terms of I think they were using Ericsson 's approach or something and in addition to They 're doing some noise removal thing , right ? phd c: Yeah , yeah . phd c: And phd d: Yeah , I modified it well , modifying I studied Barry 's sim code , more or less . and we have some the feature for Italian database and we will try with this feature with the filter to find the result . phd d: and maybe try another type of spectral subtraction , I don't professor a: When you say you don't have a result yet you mean it 's it 's just that it 's in process or that you it finished and it didn't get a good result ? phd d: No . No , no n we have n we have do the experiment only have the feature the feature but the experiment have phd c: Yeah . So I suggest actually now we we we sorta move on and and hear what 's what 's what 's happening in in other areas like what 's what 's happening with your investigations about echos and so on . grad f: Oh Well I haven't started writing the test yet , I 'm meeting with Adam today professor a: grad f: and he 's going t show me the scripts he has for running recognition on mee Meeting Recorder digits . grad f: I also haven't got the code yet , I haven't asked Hynek for for the for his code yet . Cuz I looked at Avendano 's thesis and I don't really understand what he 's doing yet but it it it sounded like the channel normalization part of his thesis was done in a a bit of I don't know what the word is , a a bit of a rough way it sounded like he he he it it wasn't really fleshed out and maybe he did something that was interesting for the test situation but I I 'm not sure if it 's what I 'd wanna use so I have to I have to read it more , I don't really understand what he 's doing yet . Yeah I haven't read it in a while so I 'm not gonna be too much help unless I read it again , phd d: It 's my phd c: Oh yeah ? phd d: I know this is mine here . The so you , and then you 're also gonna be doing this echo cancelling between the the close mounted and the and the the the what we 're calling a cheating experiment of sorts between the distant grad f: I I 'm ho Right . grad f: I I think he 's at least planning to do it for the cl close - mike cross - talk and so maybe I can just take whatever setup he has and use it . Yeah actually he should I wonder who else is I think maybe it 's Dan Ellis is going to be doing a different cancellation . One of the things that people working in the meeting task wanna get at is they would like to have cleaner close - miked recordings . So this is especially true for the lapel but even for the close close - miked cases we 'd like to be able to have other sounds from other people and so forth removed from So when someone isn't speaking you 'd like the part where they 're not speaking to actually be So what they 're talking about doing is using ec echo cancellation - like techniques . It 's not really echo but just taking the input from other mikes and using a an adaptive filtering approach to remove the effect of that other speech . what was it , there was there was some some some point where eh Eric or somebody was was speaking and he had lots of silence in his channel and I was saying something to somebody else which was in the background and it was not it was recognizing my words , which were the background speech on the close close mike . phd b: Yeah that was actually my I was wearing the I was wearing the lapel and you were sitting next to me , professor a: Oh you it was you I was Yeah . phd b: and I only said one thing but you were talking and it was picking up all your words . So I think I think Dan Ellis or somebody who was working with him was going to work on that . And I don't know if we 've talked lately about the the plans you 're developing that we talked about this morning I don't remember if we talked about that last week or not , but maybe just a quick reprise of of what we were saying this morning . So continuing to extend phd b: What about the stuff that Mirjam has been doing ? And and S Shawn , yeah . professor a: But that 's all that 's is a a certainly relevant study and , you know , what are the features that they 're finding . professor a: what are the variables , what we 're calling this one , what are the variables that they 're found finding useful phd c: . professor a: for phd b: And their their targets are based on canonical mappings of phones to acoustic f features . And that 's certainly one thing to do and we 're gonna try and do something more f more fine than that but so So I guess you know what , I was trying to remember some of the things we were saying , do you ha still have that ? Yeah . professor a: There 's those that yeah , some of some of the issues we were talking about was in j just getting a good handle on on what " good features " are and phd b: What does what did Larry Saul use for it was the sonorant detector , right ? How did he H how did he do that ? Wh - what was his detector ? professor a: And the other thing you were talking about is is is where we get the targets from . So , there 's these issues of what are the what are the variables that you use and do you combine them using the soft " AND - OR " or you do something , you know , more complicated and then the other thing was so where do you get the targets from ? The initial thing is just the obvious that we 're discussing is starting up with phone labels from somewhere and then doing the transformation . But then the other thing is to do something better and eh w why don't you tell us again about this this database ? This is the phd b: ! professor a: And then tell them to talk naturally ? Yeah , yeah . professor a: Maybe you could go to these parlors and and you could , you know you know have have , you know , reduced rates if you if you can do the measurements . You could what you could do is you could sell little rings and stuff with embedded you know , transmitters in them and things professor a: Yeah . phd b: ! There 's a bunch of data that l around , that people have done studies like that w way way back right ? I can't remember where Wisconsin or someplace that used to have a big database of Yeah . I remember there was this guy at A T - andT , Randolph ? or r What was his name ? Do you remember that guy ? , researcher at A T - andT a while back that was studying , trying to do speech recognition from these kinds of features . professor a: Do you mean eh but you Mar phd c: Well he was the guy the guy that was using professor a: you mean when was was Mark Randolph there , or ? phd b: Mark Randolph . phd c: Is it the guy that was using the pattern of pressure on the tongue or ? phd b: I can't remember exactly what he was using , now . But I know I just remember it had to do with you know positional parameters phd c: What Yeah . So the only the only hesitation I had about it since , I haven't see the data is it sounds like it 's it 's continuous variables and a bunch of them . professor a: I don't know how complicated it is to go from there What you really want are these binary labels , and just a few of them . And maybe there 's a trivial mapping if you wanna do it and it 's e but it I I I worry a little bit that this is a research project in itself , whereas if you did something instead that like having some manual annotation by you know , linguistics students , this would there 'd be a limited s set of things that you could do a as per our discussions with with John before phd b: professor a: but the things that you could do , like nasality and voicing and a couple other things you probably could do reasonably well . the other thing you could do is boot trying to to get those binary variables and take the continuous variables from the the data itself there , but I I 'm not sure phd b: Could you cluster the just do some kind of clustering ? professor a: Guess you could , yeah . So anyway that 's that 's that 's another whole direction that cou could be looked at . in general it 's gonna be for new data that you look at , it 's gonna be hidden variable because we 're not gonna get everybody sitting in these meetings to wear the pellets and . phd b: So you 're talking about using that data to get instead of using canonical mappings of phones . phd b: So you 'd use that data to give you sort of what the the true mappings are for each phone ? grad e: So wh yeah , where this fits into the rest in in my mind , I guess , is that we 're looking at different ways that we can combine different kinds of of rep front - end representations in order to get robustness under difficult or even , you know , typical conditions . And part of it , this robustness , seems to come from multi - stream or multi - band sorts of things and Saul seems to have a reasonable way of looking at it , at least for one one articulatory feature . The question is is can we learn from that to change some of the other methods we have , since , one of the things that 's nice about what he had I thought was that that it it the decision about how strongly to train the different pieces is based on a a reasonable criterion with hidden variables rather than just assuming that you should train e e every detector with equal strength towards it being this phone or that phone . It 's a soft " AND " , I guess but in in principle you you wanna get a strong concurrence of all the different things that indicate something and then he " OR 's " across the different soft " OR 's " across the different multi - band channels . And the weight yeah , the target for the training of the " AND " " AND ' ed " things is something that 's kept as a hidden variable , and is learned with EM . Whereas what we were doing is is taking the phone target and then just back propagating from that phd b: So he doesn't have professor a: which means that it 's it 's i It could be for instance that for a particular point in the data you don't want to train a particular band train the detectors for a particular band . You you wanna ignore that band , cuz that 's a Ban - band is a noisy noisy measure . professor a: And we don't We 're we 're still gonna try to train it up . In our scheme we 're gonna try to train it up to do as well well as it can at predicting . phd b: So he doesn't have to have truth marks or Ho grad e: F right , and he doesn't have to have hard labels . professor a: Well at the at the tail end , yeah , he has to know what 's where it 's sonorant . But he 's but what he 's - but what he 's not training up what he doesn't depend on as truth is grad e: Right . professor a: I guess one way of describing would be if if a sound is sonorant is it sonorant in this band ? Is it sonorant in that band ? grad e: Right . professor a: Is it sonorant in that band ? i It 's hard to even answer that what you really mean is that the whole sound is sonorant . professor a: then it comes down to , you know , to what extent should you make use of information from particular band towards making your decision . And we 're making in a sense sort of this hard decision that you should you should use everything with with equal strength . professor a: And because in the ideal case we would be going for posterior probabilities , if we had enough data to really get posterior probabilities and if the if we also had enough data so that it was representative of the test data then we would in fact be doing the right thing to train everything as hard as we can . But this is something that 's more built up along an idea of robustness from from the beginning and so you don't necessarily want to train everything up towards the phd b: So where did he get his his tar his high - level targets about what 's sonorant and what 's not ? grad e: From canonical mappings at first phd b: OK . grad e: and then it 's unclear eh phd b: Using TIMIT ? or using grad e: using TIMIT phd b: - huh . we ha we have a kind of iterative training because we do this embedded Viterbi , so there is some something that 's suggested , based on the data but it 's it 's not I think it s doesn't seem like it 's quite the same , cuz of this cuz then whatever that alignment is , it 's that for all all bands . professor a: Well no , that 's not quite right , we did actually do them separate tried to do them separately so that would be a little more like what he did . But it 's still not quite the same because then it 's it 's setting targets based on where you would say the sound begins in a particular band . Might be closer I guess if we did a soft soft target embedded neural net training like we 've done a few times f the forward do the forward calculations to get the gammas and train on those . what 's next ? phd b: I could say a little bit about w stuff I 've been playing with . You 're playing ? phd b: I Huh ? professor a: You 're playing ? phd b: Yes , I 'm playing . so I wanted to do this experiment to see what happens if we try to improve the performance of the back - end recognizer for the Aurora task and see how that affects things . And so I had this I think I sent around last week a this plan I had for an experiment , this matrix where I would take the the original the original system . So there 's the original system trained on the mel cepstral features and then com and then optimize the b HTK system and run that again . So look at the difference there and then do the same thing for the ICSI - OGI front - end . professor a: What which test set was this ? phd b: This is that I looked at ? professor a: phd b: So as far as I 've gotten is I 've been able to go through from beginning to end the full HTK system for the Italian data and got the same results that that Stephane had . So I started looking to and now I 'm I 'm sort of lookin at the point where I wanna know what should I change in the HTK back - end in order to try to to improve it . One of the first things I thought of was the fact that they use the same number of states for all of the models professor a: phd b: and so I went on - line and I found a pronunciation dictionary for Italian digits professor a: phd b: and just looked at , you know , the number of phones in each one of the digits . you know , sort of the canonical way of setting up a an system is that you use three states per phone and so then the the total number of states for a word would just be , you know , the number of phones times three . And so when I did that for the Italian digits , I got a number of states , ranging on the low end from nine to the high end , eighteen . Now you have to really add two to that because in HTK there 's an initial null and a final null so when they use models that have eighteen states , there 're really sixteen states . And so their guess of eighteen states seems to be pretty well matched to the two longest words of the Italian digits , the four and five which , according to my , you know , sort of off the cuff calculation , should have eighteen states each . So my guess And then if you I I printed out a confusion matrix for the well - matched case , and it turns out that the longest words are actually the ones that do the best . So my guess about what 's happening is that you know , if you assume a fixed the same amount of training data for each of these digits and a fixed length model for all of them but the actual words for some of them are half as long you really have , you know , half as much training data for those models . Because if you have a long word and you 're training it to eighteen states , you 've got you know , you 've got the same number of Gaussians , you 've gotta train in each case , professor a: phd b: but for the shorter words , you know , the total number of frames is actually half as many . phd b: So it could be that , you know , for the short words there 's because you have so many states , you just don't have enough data to train all those Gaussians . So I 'm going to try to create more word - specific prototype H M Ms to start training from . professor a: Yeah , it 's not at all uncommon you do worse on long word on short words than long words anyway just because you 're accumulating more evidence for the for the longer word , phd b: phd b: Yeah so I 'll I 'll , the next experiment I 'm gonna try is to just you know create models that seem to be more w matched to my guess about how long they should be . phd b: And as part of that I wanted to see sort of how the how these models were coming out , you know , what w when we train up th you know , the model for " one " , which wants to have nine states , you know , what is the what do the transition probabilities look like in the self - loops , look like in in those models ? And so I talked to Andreas and he explained to me how you can calculate the expected duration of an just by looking at the transition matrix professor a: phd b: and so I wrote a little Matlab script that calculates that and so I 'm gonna sort of print those out for each of the words to see what 's happening , you know , how these models are training up , professor a: I d I did quickly , I did the silence model and and that 's coming out with about one point two seconds as its average duration and the silence model 's the one that 's used at the beginning and the end of each of the string of digits . And so the S P model , which is what they put in between digits , I I haven't calculated that for that one yet , but . So they basically their their model for a whole digit string is silence digit , SP , digit , SP blah - blah - blah and then silence at the end . professor a: Are the SP 's optional ? skip them ? phd b: I have to look at that , but I 'm not sure that they are . Now the one thing about the S P model is really it only has a single s emitting state to it . phd b: So if it 's not optional , you know , it 's it 's not gonna hurt a whole lot professor a: I see . phd b: and it 's tied to the center state of the silence model so it 's not its own It doesn't require its own training data , professor a: phd b: So it , it 's pretty good the way that they have it set up , but i So I wanna play with that a little bit more . I 'm curious about looking at , you know how these models have trained and looking at the expected durations of the models and I wanna compare that in the the well - matched case f to the unmatched case , and see if you can get an idea of just from looking at the durations of these models , you know , what what 's happening . professor a: Yeah , I think that , as much as you can , it 's good to d sort of not do anything really tricky . professor a: Not do anything that 's really finely tuned , but just sort of eh you know you t you i z phd b: Yeah . professor a: The premise is kind of you have a a good person look at this for a few weeks and what do you come up with ? phd b: professor a: And phd b: And Hynek , when I wa told him about this , he had an interesting point , and that was th the the final models that they end up training up have I think probably something on the order of six Gaussians per state . And Hynek was saying that well , probably in a real application , you wouldn't have enough compute to handle models that are very big or complicated . But you know , it depends on what the actual application is and it 's really hard to know what your limits are in terms of how many Gaussians you can have . professor a: I I I what I thought you were gonna say i but which I was thinking was where did six come from ? Probably came from the same place eighteen came from . professor a: that 's another parameter , right ? that that maybe , you know , you really want three or nine or phd b: Yeah , yeah . Well one thing , if I if if I start reducing the number of states for some of these shorter models that 's gonna reduce the total number of Gaussians . professor a: how much better can you make it ? And since they 're only simple things there 's nothing that you 're gonna do that is going to blow up the amount of computation phd b: professor a: if you found that nine was better than six that would be O K , I think , actually . I really wasn't even gonna play with that part of the system yet , professor a: - , OK . phd b: I was just gonna change the the t professor a: Yeah , just work with the models , yeah . So what 's I guess your plan for You you you guys ' plan for the next next week is just continue on these these same things we 've been talking about for Aurora and phd c: Yeah , I guess we can try to have some kind of new baseline for next week perhaps . And then do other things , play with the spectral subtraction , and retry the MSG and things like that . I think that after all of this confusion settles down in another some point a little later next year there will be some sort of standard and it 'll get out there and hopefully it 'll have some effect from something that that has been done by our group of people but e even if it doesn't there 's there 's go there 'll be standards after that . phd b: Does anybody know how to run Matlab sort of in batch mode like you c send it s a bunch of commands to run and it gives you the output . Is it possible to do that ? grad e: I I think Mike tried it phd b: Yeah ? grad e: and he says it 's impossible so he went to Octave . phd c: What is Octave so ? It 's a free software ? grad e: What 's that ? , Octave ? phd c: Yeah . phd c: And it does the same syntax and everything eh like Matlab , or ? grad e: i it 's a little behind , it 's the same syntax but it 's a little behind in that Matlab went to these like you can have cells and you can you can implement object - oriented type things with Matlab . Octave doesn't do that yet , so I think you , Octave is kinda like Matlab four point something or . phd b: If it 'll do like a lot of the basic matrix and vector stuff grad e: The basic stuff , right <doc-sep>Can you , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ? phd c: This is Eric on channel three , I believe . postdoc e: Oh , darn , what am I doing wrong ? undergrad d: Can you see me on channel four ? Really ? grad a: Yeah , I s undergrad d: My lucky day . postdoc e: screen no , it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ? grad a: No . postdoc e: Oh , darn , can you can't see channel five yet ? grad a: well , the mike isn't close enough to your mouth , so . postdoc e: Oh , this would be k OK , is that better ? grad a: S , try speaking loudly , undergrad d: I like the high quality labelling . grad a: so , postdoc e: Hello , grad a: OK , good . undergrad d: David , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ? postdoc e: hello . phd b: One t undergrad d: How how many are there , one to five ? phd b: One five , yeah . postdoc e: Would you like to join the meeting ? grad a: Well , we don't wanna renumber them , postdoc e: I bet grad a: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . grad a: OK , Dan , are you on ? phd b: I 'm on I 'm on two and I should be on . undergrad d: Want to join the meeting , Dave ? Do we do do we have a spare , grad a: And I 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so I assume the various and assorted P Z Ms are on . undergrad d: We ' r we 're we ' r This is this this is a meeting meeting . postdoc e: This is abou we 're we 're mainly being taped but we 're gonna talk about , transcription for the m future meeting meetings . grad a: Right , Dan ? undergrad d: So , I don't understand if it 's neck mounted you don't get very good performance . grad a: What are you doing ? undergrad d: Cuz when you do this , you can Rouww - Rouww . postdoc e: Why didn't I you were saying that but I could hear you really well on the on the transcription on the , tape . grad a: Well , I m I would prefer that people wore it on their head phd b: I I don't know . grad a: It 's very badly designed so it 's phd b: It 's very badly designed ? undergrad d: What do you mean it doesn't go over the ears ? phd b: Why ? It 's not s It 's not supposed to cover up your ears . grad a: Yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable . phd b: it 's only badly postdoc e: So that 's what you 're d He 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation . grad a: Well , you know , I 'm just that sort of digit - y g sorta guy . phd b: We didn't postdoc e: Now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ? phd b: That 's the microphone number . phd b: Transcript number phd c: OK , this is Eric on microphone number three , undergrad d: This is Beck on mike four . Should I turn off the VU meter Dan ? Do you think that makes any difference ? phd b: Oh , God . grad a: Why ? Are you gonna do something other than hit " quit " ? phd b: No , but I 'm gonna look at the , logs as well . postdoc e: you said turn off the what ? grad a: The VU meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that the act of recording the VU meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors . undergrad d: Yeah , but Eric , you didn't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ? postdoc e: I See . grad a: That was me , undergrad d: Oh , I 'm sorry y grad a: I thought that was undergrad d: That was malarkey . undergrad d: Are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ? phd b: No . undergrad d: Why not ? phd b: I think , I s I spoke to somebody , Morgan , about that . undergrad d: Why don't you just do this ? grad a: that 's what we 've done before . phd b: I know what they they 're they 're four , three , two , one . grad a: Which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things . phd b: It 'll be a lot easier if we have a if we have them permanently in place or something like that . undergrad d: Is this b is this being recorded ? grad a: That 's right . undergrad d: I think Lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order . grad a: OK , so , topic of this meeting is I wanna talk a little bit about transcription . , I 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and Jane has been working on doing transcription . , and so we wan wanna decide what we 're gonna do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . , you know , eventually we 're probably gonna wanna distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gonna how we 're gonna handle some of these factors . phd b: Distribute what ? grad a: ? phd b: The data ? grad a: Right . , so we 're we 're collecting a corpus and I think it 's gonna be generally useful . grad a: and so we will undergrad d: u Using , like , audio D V Ds or something like that ? grad a: Excuse me ? phd b: Yes . Yeah , audio D V C Ds , undergrad d: Or t grad a: you know . grad a: And and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? phd c: Well , I think , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the LDC for instance . postdoc e: Yeah , grad a: Right , but but so should we do it in the same format as LDC postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ? phd b: Right . The It 's not so much the actu The logistics of distribution are secondary to preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution . So , as it is , it 's sort of a ad - hoc combination of stuff Dan set and stuff I set up , which we may wanna make a little more formal . phd b: And the other thing is that , University of Washington may want to start recording meetings as well , grad a: Right . phd b: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy . So I have a bunch of scripts with X Waves , and some Perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are . And if U d UW 's going to do the same thing I think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well . grad a: And what I 've done is pretty ad - hoc , so we might wanna change it over to something a little more standard . undergrad d: An - and there 's interest up there ? grad a: What 's that ? undergrad d: There 's interest up there ? grad a: Well they they certainly wanna collect more data . grad a: And I would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . , one of the things Morgan and I were talking about is we 're gonna get to know this room really well , phd c: undergrad d: Did you notice the fan difference ? phd b: Oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gonna be undergrad d: Hear the difference ? grad a: Oh , it 's enormous . undergrad d: Do you wanna leave it off or not ? postdoc e: That 's better . phd b: That 's undergrad d: Yeah , the You sure ? phd b: Oh , yeah . phd b: So it could be that it 's not actually wired backwards undergrad d: That 's right . phd c: It would you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the turn off the air conditioning , grad a: Carbon monoxide poisoning ? undergrad d: Short meetings , that 's right . undergrad d: Actually , the a th air the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan . grad a: So phd c: So , in addition to this issue about the UW stuff there was announced today , via the LDC , a corpus from I believe Santa Barbara . phd c: And I don't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different styles of speech and what not . phd c: And postdoc e: They had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have DAT recorders . Right ? postdoc e: I I assume so , actually , I hadn't thought about that . Unless they added close field later on but , I 've listened to some of those data and I , I 've been I I was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up . phd b: What 's it sound like ? postdoc e: I 'm glad to see that it got released . grad a: Yeah , I I wish postdoc e: So it it 's a very nice thing . grad a: I wish we had someone here working on adaptation phd c: S grad a: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . You know phd c: But it may be it may be useful in postdoc e: How do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or grad a: No , software , to adapt the speech recognition . phd c: Well , what I was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff , grad a: phd c: right ? In doing , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data postdoc e: Great idea . grad a: Well that 's not good , right ? phd c: That 's that 's not great . postdoc e: It sounds undergrad d: Tr postdoc e: well but what is that , undergrad d: But far field means great distance ? grad a: Just these . undergrad d: And so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple DATs ? postdoc e: oh , good question and I can't ans answer it . grad a: So we can get that just with , media costs , undergrad d: Still a point . grad a: is that right ? phd c: in fact we get it for free grad a: Oh . phd c: So , I can I can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're postdoc e: The other thing too is from from a grad a: Well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gonna have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit . postdoc e: The other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain . Maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did phd b: Yeah , absolutely . grad a: OK , why don't you go ahead and do that then Eric ? phd b: Absolutely . postdoc e: but , phd c: Well they 're postdoc e: this is clever . phd c: Apparently this was like phase one postdoc e: Got it through the LDC . phd c: and the there 's still more that they 're gonna do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues postdoc e: Great . phd c: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like , " oh , this is phase one " , whatever that means . Yeah , that , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area , phd c: OK . phd c: But , it it would also maybe help be helpful for Liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then , grad a: Right . grad a: Actually , that 's another thing I was thinking about is that maybe Jane should talk to Liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked . undergrad d: That would be a meeting meeting meeting ? grad a: A meeting meeting meeting . But maybe we should , find some day that Liz , Liz and Andreas seem to be around more often . phd c: So maybe we should find a day when they 're gonna be here and and Morgan 's gonna be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . grad a: Well , I was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the U - dub to see phd c: We need we need to talk to them some more . grad a: you know , say " this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription " , if nothing else . So , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ? phd b: What we 're using right now is a tool , from this French group , called " Transcriber " that seems to work very well . , so it has a , nice useful Tcl - TK user interface and , undergrad d: Thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ? grad a: Right . So all all so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . And so the things we that we know that I know I want are the text , the start and end , and the speaker . , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , we have to decide how much of that we wanna do . My my view on it was when you have a repair then , it seems , we saw , there was this presentation in the one of the speech group meetings about how grad a: postdoc e: and I think Liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , that you get it bracketed in terms of like well , if it 's parenthetical , which I know that Liz has worked on , then y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects . postdoc e: And then also if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're like what I just did , then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . And , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . Anyway , so what I was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which isn't , very time - consuming . undergrad d: I is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gonna be staffed or done ? Or is it real is that what we 're talking about here ? grad a: Well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . So what we wanted to do was have Jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour , postdoc e: undergrad d: It this is this is like five times real time or ten times real time postdoc e: Yeah , as a pilot study . grad a: Ten times about , is and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . And so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gonna do it ? So . undergrad d: And so you make Jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we don't need all this stuff , just the words are fine . postdoc e: I wanna hear about these , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s grad a: R right , so so one one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . , it will require a post pass , people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but I just can't imagine that we 're gonna get anything that much better from a commercial one . undergrad d: Can't we get Joy to do it all ? grad a: Yeah right . postdoc e: No , that 's grad a: We will just get Joy and Jane to do everything . undergrad d: Is tha wasn't that what she was doing before ? Yeah , that 's right . grad a: But , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who who need money undergrad d: Right . grad a: and , duh , again o postdoc e: I object to that characterization ! phd b: Oh , really . And so again , I have to say " are we recording " postdoc e: Oh , thank you . grad a: and then say , Morgan has has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have . Right ? undergrad d: Well , we already we already We already have a plan in place for the first meeting . undergrad d: Right ? That 's postdoc e: Well th there is als Yeah , really . There is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , you can you could get people to to , to do it in exchange . undergrad d: Well , i b but seriously , I , Morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money . grad a: So at any rate , Jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at is that right ? Talking to people about that ? postdoc e: I 'm afraid I haven't made any progress in that front yet . So , undergrad d: I d do So until you actually have a little experience with what this this French thing does we don't even have postdoc e: And I do have grad a: She 's already done quite a bit . So that 's where you came up with the f the ten X number ? postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: Or is that really just a guess ? postdoc e: Actually that 's the the one people usually use , ten X . phd c: How fast are you ? postdoc e: And I haven't really calculated How fast am I ? undergrad d: Yeah i postdoc e: I haven't done a s see , I 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that that are you know , and and stuff like , you know , how much phd b: Mmm . postdoc e: There 's some interesting human factors problems like , yeah , what span of of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to , transcribe it the most quickly . postdoc e: Cuz then , you know , you get like if you get a span of five words , that 's easy . And then there 's the issue of it 's easier to hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of somewhere in the middle , phd b: postdoc e: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and And so , I 've been sort of playing with , different ways of mar cuz I 'm thinking , you know , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take . undergrad d: D does this tool you 're using is strictly it doesn't do any speech recognition does it ? grad a: No . undergrad d: But but is there anyway to to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through postdoc e: That 's an interesting idea . grad a: We 've we 've thought about doing that postdoc e: Hey ! grad a: but the recognition quality is gonna be horrendous . undergrad d: First of all the time marking you 'd get you could get by a tool . undergrad d: And so if the if if the issue really postdoc e: That 's interesting . undergrad d: I 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on on live news casts . And in a lot of them you see typos and things like that , grad a: undergrad d: but it but it occurs to me that it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is . Yeah , we undergrad d: But if if there was a way to merge the two phd c: Well , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right grad a: we 've talked about it postdoc e: That 'd be fun . grad a: but phd c: it depends on the error rate , right ? undergrad d: Well s but but again the timing is for fr should be for free . grad a: We don't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances . postdoc e: No , the the boundary phd c: We cut it s s phd b: We don't we don't know , actually . phd b: We haven't decided which which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like you have the option to put in more or less timing data and , be in the absence of more specific instructions , we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is . grad a: Yeah , so so what what she 's done so far , is sort of more or less breath g not breath groups , sort of phrases , continuous phrases . grad a: And so , that 's nice because you you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . postdoc e: Although I was I you know , the alternative , which I was sort of experimenting with before I ran out of time , recently was , that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in . postdoc e: It 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , and then you press the return key . But then , you know , it 's like , you press the tab key to stop the flow and and , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . But , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key phd b: Yeah . postdoc e: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you you listen to it a second time and move it over to here . undergrad d: i a postdoc e: Now if it could all be pre - marked at some , l you know , good undergrad d: ar but grad a: . undergrad d: Are are those d delays adjustable ? Those delays adjustable ? See a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces understand that delay , phd b: Yeah . undergrad d: and and so when you by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the postdoc e: Yeah . postdoc e: It has other grad a: couldn't we Dan ? Yeah , mis Mister TCL ? phd b: Yeah . grad a: But , postdoc e: it 's not bad grad a: But , if we tried to do automatic speaker ID . phd b: Yeah , yeah , but grad a: But that would be phd b: But we 've got we 've got the most channel data . postdoc e: Oh , good point ! Ah ! grad a: Yeah , I guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe undergrad d: If grad a: But undergrad d: if we can go from ten X to five X we 're doing a big grad a: We 're gonna need we 're gonna need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to to do all this anyway . phd b: If we 're just doing silence detection postdoc e: But but it op grad a: I knew you were gonna do that . , it it 's it 's maybe like a week 's work to get to do something like this . postdoc e: Could you get it so that with so it would it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? And the the format 's really transparent . postdoc e: It 's just a matter of a very c clear it 's XML , isn't it ? grad a: postdoc e: It 's very , I looked at the the file format and it 's just it has a t a time a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other . phd c: and undergrad d: Is this already in the past or already in the future ? phd c: Already in the past . undergrad d: You 've already you 've already done some ? grad a: She 's she 's done about half a meeting . phd c: She she 's done one she 's one postdoc e: Yes I have . grad a: About half ? phd c: I 'm go postdoc e: S I 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with . And then go through , and go through and and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection . undergrad d: And forgetting all the words because you 've been thr postdoc e: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking . phd c: Yeah , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along . phd b: Well , no , you should do it you should do it Do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . undergrad d: And so you 'll get you 'll get down to one point two X by the time you get done . undergrad d: No , but the thing is the fact that she 's she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . undergrad d: It 's And if the lower bound is nine X then w it 's a waste of time . postdoc e: Well , but there 's an extra problem which is that I didn't really keep accurate phd b: Oh ! postdoc e: it wasn't a pure task the first time , phd b: Yeah . So I think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new a new batch of text that I haven't yet done yet in the same meeting . phd b: The point we where do we get the the the oracle boundaries from ? phd c: Right . grad a: Yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the and the other person would have to postdoc e: Well , but couldn't I do it for the next phd b: We we we could get fake grad a: that 's easy enough . postdoc e: Well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel wouldn't they ? grad a: No , no . You wanna know given Given a perfect human segmentation , you wanna know how well postdoc e: Yeah . phd c: the the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ? postdoc e: Oh , I see what you mean . grad a: I could generate the segmentation and and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . grad a: That would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations . undergrad d: And the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gonna do in the future but if if UW 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there . postdoc e: And the other thing too is with with speaker identification , if if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal . postdoc e: That 's a major that 's like , one of the two things that phd c: there 's gonna there 's gonna be in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's it 's gonna be a bit of a problem phd b: OK . grad a: That undergrad d: But you didn't say anything worth while anyway , right ? grad a: That 'll s phd b: Right . phd b: So I I need to we need to look at what what the final output is but it seems like we it doesn't it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words . I 've already become pretty familiar with the format , postdoc e: That 'd be so great . grad a: If you 'd tell me where it is , huh ? postdoc e: We didn't finish the the part of work already completed on this , did we ? , you you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions , grad a: postdoc e: and , I guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into So , I when I i the it 's quickest for me in terms of the transcription part to say something like , you know , if if Adam spoke to , to just say , " A colon " , Like who could be , you know , at the beginning of the line . postdoc e: and E colon instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , indicating the speaker ID . So , and then he has a script that will convert it into the the thing that , would indicate speaker ID . , I looked at Cyber Transcriber postdoc e: Yeah , well that 's true , but grad a: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . postdoc e: What i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or or whatever ? grad a: Well , for Cyber Transcriber they don't quote a price . postdoc e: Or of action ? grad a: For thirty dollars an hour for of their work . Oh , of their grad a: So so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour . postdoc e: Oh ! phd c: So that 's three that 's three hours . undergrad d: D did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for for , TV ? phd c: Right . undergrad d: Cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it . undergrad d: Well , you know , the the thing the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than I should here but that really this could be a big contribution we could make . , we 've been through the STP thing , we know what it what it 's like to to manage the manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but it was a it was a big hassle , right ? phd b: Yeah . And it 's it 's only our time , where " our " of course includes Dan , Dan and you guys . j Just seems like phd b: Yeah , I don't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help STP type problems . But certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than undergrad d: Bec Why ? Because they wanted a lot more detail ? grad a: Right . Because they had because they only had two speakers , right ? , the the segmentation problem is grad a: Trivial . So what took them so long ? grad a: mostly because they were doing much lower level time . grad a: And so we 're w we decided early on that we were not gonna do that . But there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that which is clearly a hassle . And so so what I 'm saying is that if we hire an external service I think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour . phd c: And who who knows if they 're gonna be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ? phd b: Yeah , they won't . phd b: No , but , they they they won't they won't they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material . postdoc e: And then there 's the problem also that phd b: That 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ? grad a: Yes , it is . undergrad d: Well , they might they might quote it phd b: For quoting meetings ? grad a: Sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . undergrad d: Th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co Something like that . So what they had is , if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . And what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . undergrad d: A lot of companies I 've worked for y the , the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing , grad a: So . But you know , it 's a lot like , " he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth " And so he so here we 're thinking , " well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . " You know ? It 's grad a: Yep , we have to have a short meeting . But at any rate , so we we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out . undergrad d: And we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ? grad a: Thirty or forty . phd c: So it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ? undergrad d: Yeah . And the question is what 's the difference phd b: How how much lower are they ? phd c: or ei eight dollars . What do you know what the going rate is ? It 's it 's on the order of eight to ten . postdoc e: yeah , I was gonna say eight you 'd say ten ? phd c: Let 's say ten . undergrad d: The - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ? grad a: Right , these are linguistics grad students . phd c: Yeah , I I I don't I don't know what the I don't know what the standard undergrad d: That 's right . phd c: so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to to do graduate students . grad a: that 's why I said originally , that I couldn't imagine sending it out 's gonna be cheaper . postdoc e: The other thing too is that , if they were linguistics they 'd be you know , in terms of like the post editing , i tu content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time . grad a: we can't tell them , you know , " for this meeting we really wanna mark stress postdoc e: Good point . grad a: And and they 're not gonna provide they 're not gonna provide stress , they 're not gonna re provide repairs , they 're not gonna provide they they may or may not provide speaker ID . undergrad d: Just hypoth hypothetically assuming that that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . I who who 's the person in charge ? Who 's gonna be the Steve here ? grad a: I hope it 's Jane . undergrad d: You ? grad a: Is that alright ? postdoc e: Oh , interesting . , now would this involve some manner of , monetary compensation or would I be the voluntary , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ? grad a: I would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to Morgan about it . See ? postdoc e: Oh , undergrad d: That 's why Dave should have been here . grad a: Well , I would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than I do , postdoc e: Oh , cool . grad a: but if if that 's not feasible , I will do it with you as an advisor . undergrad d: W we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you . phd c: That 's a undergrad d: And and then postdoc e: OK . undergrad d: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale . Yeah , no , that I I would be interested in that in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that grad a: OK . grad a: any more on transcript we wanna talk about ? phd b: What s so what are you so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . phd b: To carry on doing it ? postdoc e: What Well , you know what I thought was right now we have p So I gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . And so my next plan would be phd b: What what do they what do they cover ? postdoc e: They 're very minimal . postdoc e: and this is a way which meshes well with with , making it so that , you know , on the At the phd b: Yeah . When you when you get the , you you get the speech signal you also get down beneath it , an indication of , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them one displayed one above each other . And then at the same time the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . You can clip click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . undergrad d: Is there a limit to the number of speakers ? grad a: the user interface only allows two . And so , using this the convention that Jane and I have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want . undergrad d: Th - this is the French software , right ? grad a: Yeah , French . phd b: Oh , really ? undergrad d: did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ? postdoc e: Oh . grad a: Yes , and they said that 's on in in the works for the next version . grad a: Multichannels was also Well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . undergrad d: Do - do you know what they 're using it for ? Why 'd they develop it ? grad a: For this exact task ? phd c: For transcription . undergrad d: Are they linguists ? phd c: It 's undergrad d: But , are they are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ? grad a: I think they 're linguists . phd c: They 're they have some connection to the LDC cuz the LDC has been advising them on this process , the Linguistic Data Consortium . grad a: And they have they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and I said , well , maybe . grad a: So if we want if we did if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually I think is a great idea , I 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in . You know , they they do have So you have when you when you play it back , it 's it is useful to have , a a break mark to se segment it . But it wouldn't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the , the tabbed key to toggle the sound on and off . And then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of cycling through the unit . undergrad d: Loop it ? Yo - you n you know , there 's al also the the user interface that 's missing . postdoc e: Or or or undergrad d: It 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . It 's something that wh when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . You know , like a joy stick or a , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that . postdoc e: Why , that 's That 's not something I wanted to have happen . undergrad d: No , but I 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for for for m for video or for audio where you you need to do this , postdoc e: I see . undergrad d: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that . grad a: Yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog phd c: Yeah . grad a: So , tho those are things we could do but I I just don't know how much it 's worth doing . postdoc e: They thought about and also it 'll go around the c the , I wanna say cursor but I 'm not sure if that 's the right thing . postdoc e: Anyway , you can so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c work within , phd b: postdoc e: and But so in terms of the con the conventions , then , basically , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , w , colloquial forms . So if a person said , " cuz " instead of " because " then I put a an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be . postdoc e: And this could be something that was handled by a table or something but I think to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha I don't mean standard but a a a non , ortho orthographic , whatever . And and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation . phd c: How are you handling backchannels ? postdoc e: Backchannels ? grad a: Comments . postdoc e: you know oh , yes , there was some in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , I didn't worry about I didn't worry about s specific start times . phd c: What do you mean by du postdoc e: I sort of thought that this is not gonna be easily processed anyway and maybe I shouldn't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said " no " , or , you know , i " immediate " . postdoc e: And instead just sort of rendered " within this time slot , there were two people speaking during part of it phd b: Yeah . postdoc e: and if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself " , phd b: grad a: Well , I think what w what Eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech , phd c: I see . postdoc e: was sort of the way I felt @ @ grad a: right ? phd c: Well , yeah , what is wh , when somebody says " - huh " in the middle of , a @ @ grad a: Yep . phd c: Oh , cuz I was I was listening to Dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking . Well , if it if there was a word like " right " , you know , then I wou I would indicate that it happened within the same tem time frame grad a: Yeah , there 's an overlapping mark . grad a: when when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , and we 're all sort of separated , and and doing things . But even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it it 's marked pretty clearly . , some of the backchannel stuff Jane had some comments and but I think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . grad a: Yeah , but someone who , was just the transcriber wouldn't have known that . grad a: Or when Dan said , " I wa I wasn't talking to you " . undergrad d: So you take a bathroom break in the middle and and keep your head mount grad a: You have to turn off your mike . postdoc e: Well he was so so he was checking the meter levels and and we were handling things while he was labeling the the whatever it was , the PDA ? grad a: postdoc e: And and so he was in sort of you were sort of talking you know , so I was saying , like " and I could label this one left . grad a: But postdoc e: But really , no , w you know in the context if you know he can't hear what he 's saying grad a: but when you w when you listen to it undergrad d: he he It was a lot funnier if you were there though . postdoc e: yeah , grad a: Well what what it what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like Dan is just being a total totally impolite . grad a: But but if you knew that that I wasn't actually in the room , and that Dan wasn't talking to me , it it became OK . undergrad d: So th postdoc e: And that 's w that 's where I added comments . postdoc e: The rest of the time I didn't bother with who was talking to who but but this was unusual circum circumstance . undergrad d: So this is this is gonna go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ? grad a: Yes . postdoc e: Well and part of it was funny , reason was because it was a mixed signal so you couldn't get any clues from volume that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation . I should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . I have a auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal postdoc e: That 's a good idea . postdoc e: But I thought it would be you know , I I didn't wanna add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . And , OK , phd c: So , s postdoc e: so normalization phd c: I was just gonna ask , so I just wanted to c sort of finish off the question I had about backchannels , phd b: Mmm . phd c: which which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while postdoc e: Yeah . phd c: and somebody goes " - " in the middle of it , and and and what not , does the conversation come out from the or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment of this other speaker or does it does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the the the it in two . postdoc e: OK , my my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , to keep it within what he was saying . Like I wouldn't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . So if someone said " - " in the middle of a of someone 's , intonational contour , I I indicated it as , like what you just did . postdoc e: then I indicated it as a segment which contained @ @ this utterance plus an overlap . phd b: But that 's but there 's only one there 's only one time boundary for both speakers , phd c: OK . And you know , it could be made more precise than that phd c: I see , postdoc e: but I just thought phd c: I see , OK . undergrad d: I think whenever we use these speech words we should always do the thing like you 're talking about , accent , postdoc e: Oh , I see what you mean . OK , and so then , in terms of like words like " " and " " I just wrote them because I figured there 's a limited number , and I keep them to a , limited set because it didn't matter if it was " mmm " or " " , you know , versus " " . It 'd be good to have that in the in the conventions , what 's to be used . grad a: I I did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . undergrad d: Well , what 's that mean ? postdoc e: Yeah , OK . phd b: We have to mark those ? postdoc e: So I had phd b: Don't they d can't we just leave them unmarked ? postdoc e: I d Well , you see , that 's possible too . grad a: Well , I wanna leave the marked I don't want them to be part of another utterance . Now that 's refinement that , maybe it could be handled by part of the part of the script or something more phd b: yeah , it seems like it seems like the , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these automatic speaker detection turn placing things . Because suddenly , I don't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . Well you were saying , I think it can read grad a: It can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it postdoc e: - huh . phd b: But what if you wanna edit it ? Right ? , the point is we 're gonna generate this transcript with five five tracks in it , but with no words . , and if there are five five people speaking at once , grad a: Right , i it 's I didn't explain it well . If we use the the little the conventions that Jane has established , I have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention . postdoc e: And it can be m edited after the fact , grad a: Yes . postdoc e: can't it also ? But their but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , then i they a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers . undergrad d: But you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ? postdoc e: So . undergrad d: Oh ! That is sort of f grad a: It 's just user interface . undergrad d: They didn't quite go the whole grad a: So i it 's undergrad d: Yeah , they didn't go the whole route , grad a: the the the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers . undergrad d: did they ? They just grad a: It 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple any more than two . So your your script solves Doesn't it solve all our problems , postdoc e: And that grad a: Yep . undergrad d: cuz we 're always gonna wanna go through this preprocessing grad a: Yep . Oh , yes , I I wanted to have So sometimes a pers I in terms of like the continuity of thought for transcriptions , it 's i it isn't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . And sometimes someone will do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wanna show that it 's continued at a later point . So I have I have a convention of putting like a dash arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . And then when it , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , sometimes we had the situation which is you know , which you which you get in conversations , of someone continuing someone else 's utterance , phd b: Mmm . postdoc e: and in that case I did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , to indicate that it was continuation but it wasn't Oh , I guess I did equal arrow for the for the own for yourself things phd b: postdoc e: And then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . grad a: So phd b: But the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . Like , if you If you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . I guess if you have more than one thread going , then you then you need to know whether they were swapped or not . You know , undergrad d: It l ou grad a: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . grad a: But , a lot of these issues , I think that for , from my point of view , where I just wanna do speech recognition and information retrieval , it doesn't really matter . I you know I did this I did this transcription and I marked that , I marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . It 's something you wanted to indicate that it that I this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of that particular transcript , but it was continued later . Well that 's you know , I that 's why I didn't I didn't do it n , that 's why I thought about it , and and re - ev phd b: Yeah , yeah . postdoc e: and it didn't do I didn't do it in ten times the the time . grad a: Well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ? postdoc e: Yeah . postdoc e: I also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . Do you have a sense of how long phd b: Yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but I didn't have any I didn't even have a postdoc e: OK . So I was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit It was horrible . postdoc e: Well , that 's that 's because you didn't have the segmentation help and all the other grad a: But I think for a first try that 's about right . phd b: Is it phd c: So so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of Dan 's undergrad d: That 's right . phd b: It was actually it was quite it was a t undergrad d: a grad a: If we hire an infinite number of Dan 's phd b: it w undergrad d: It 'd b a a postdoc e: And there 's always a warm up thing of grad a: Are we gonna run out of disk space by the way ? phd b: Yeah . undergrad d: d Doesn't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ? phd c: So Is there grad a: No . phd c: Maybe we should s consider also , starting to build up a web site around all of these things . phd b: We could have like business - to - business E - commerce as well ! phd c: That 's right . No , but I 'm it would be interesting it would be interesting to see grad a: Can we sell banner ads ? undergrad d: Get get paid for click - throughs ? grad a: What a good idea , phd b: Yeah . phd c: I want to introduce I I want to introduce the word " snot - head " into the conversation at this point . phd b: We can have undergrad d: You wanna word that won't be recognized ? phd c: You see , cuz , cuz Exactly . Alright , see here 's here 's here 's my thought behind it which is that , the the stuff that you 've been describing , Jane , I gu one has to , of course indicate , i is very interesting , postdoc e: Alright . phd c: and I I 'd like to be able to to pore through , you know , the the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that . postdoc e: OK , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in Doctor speech . postdoc e: Cuz cuz what I have is a soft link to my transcription that I have on my account phd c: Either 's fine . undergrad d: Web site 's what ? phd b: We could actually maybe we could use the TCL plug - in . See he said the word TCL and and that 's undergrad d: But he does such a good job of it . But I should be allowed to but undergrad d: If you just did a crappy job , no nobody would want you to do it . phd b: I sh I shouldn't be allowed to by m by my own by my according to my own priorities . grad a: And we have we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around . grad a: and phd c: Right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things . phd c: The phd b: Well so then th grad a: Try try to s consolidate . phd c: Well , we could put we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt undergrad d: Why ? What what 's what 's the issue ? phd b: No one owns the project . undergrad d: W well Do But grad a: It 's mine ! All mine ! phd b: Well then you have to do the web site . undergrad d: But grad a: " Wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . undergrad d: b but but but what are you what are you talking about for web site hacking ? phd b: No undergrad d: You 're talking about writing HTML , right ? grad a: Yeah , I I 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . undergrad d: But , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ? grad a: Absolutely . undergrad d: You y grad a: It 's just as easy to use to edit the raw HTML as anything else . undergrad d: No kidding ? phd b: That 's obviously not true , grad a: It 's obviously not true . phd b: but you have undergrad d: No , it it it 's obviously true that he hasn't found any he likes . postdoc e: Which one do you use Jim ? undergrad d: I use something called Trellix . grad a: Now , I guess if I were if I were doing more powerful excuse me more complex web sites I might want to . postdoc e: Well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ? grad a: But . phd b: I I I I grad a: OK , well , send me links and I wi send me pointers , rather , and I 'll put it together . I don't think we should say , " oh , it 's internal therefore we don't have to make it very good " . phd b: therefore we can put data in it that we don't we don't have to worry about releasing " . postdoc e: Yeah , it is true , that is it benefits to undergrad d: Cuz you 're gonna have to wor do the work sooner or later . undergrad d: d we we out of tape out of disk ? phd b: No , we 're doing we 're doing great . undergrad d: I I was looking for the actual box I plan to use , but I c all I could I couldn't find it at the local store . And it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip , grad a: Yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? It 's great . undergrad d: And , it oc I p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded . grad a: Clink ! Clink ! undergrad d: Let 's see see what it does to the But this was the just just to review , and I also brought this along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around . grad a: And and crinkle them and phd b: What ? postdoc e: And th " that " being a diagram . phd b: What ? undergrad d: That that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . phd b: th undergrad d: Well why not ? , cuz this is what 's gonna happen . And and and you So this is the box 's grad a: Get your paper off my PDA ! phd b: Yeah . And so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little LED to indicate that that box is live . The the important issue about the LED is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . And , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gonna be used for this . undergrad d: So there 'd be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many . you 'd like a a way to tell whether your box is live , so the LED wouldn't be on . undergrad d: So if you 're plugged in it doesn't work and the LED is off that 's that 's a tip off . And then the , would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time . undergrad d: so this this notion of putting down the P Z Ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table grad a: Right . undergrad d: and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of grad a: Sleeve . undergrad d: yeah , that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that 's sort of shaped like that cross section . I 'm I 'm r a I 'm going up and then I 'm going down . grad a: Whoo ! phd b: Speed bump ! postdoc e: Sleeping pol phd b: Speed bump . grad a: Speed A " sleeping policeman " ! undergrad d: Yeah , it 's like a speed bum An postdoc e: Speed bump . undergrad d: And they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic . phd c: What does that mean ? phd b: That 's the s that 's British for speed bump , phd c: Is it a speed bump ? undergrad d: So that the wires go through here . postdoc e: Ah ! grad a: OK , so that undergrad d: s So it would c basically go on the diagonal here . grad a: So why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? phd b: Yeah . undergrad d: because the phd b: How else are you gonna distribute them around the tables ? undergrad d: Because they 're there . Why two each ? phd b: Oh , because then you don't have to just have one each . So that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box . undergrad d: And to See , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . phd b: Only if you had Well it depends on this box , right ? undergrad d: Oh , true enough . grad a: Oh , I didn't understand undergrad d: This this box Thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal . And , it 's function is to s to , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage . grad a: So so you 'd imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? phd b: ! undergrad d: Well I w I I the simplest thing I could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in . And there 's a there 's a plug on the end of each of these these , ei eight cables . undergrad d: An - and there 's only there 's only four slots that are you know , in in the first version or the version we 're planning to to build . undergrad d: So that that was the whole issue with the LED , that you plug it in , the LED comes on , and and and you 're live . undergrad d: Now the the the subtle issue here is that tha I I haven't really figured out a solution for this . What happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? grad a: undergrad d: Well the there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . So th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , rewire things . phd b: But there are actually that you know , there 's an extra there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ? undergrad d: phd b: So there are actually six XLR outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , I had the wrong five , so I ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix . undergrad d: Wonder whether it works any phd b: But I subtracted the four that I did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ . undergrad d: Is it is phd b: It 's not bad , grad a: Wow . grad a: So what 's the schedule on these things ? undergrad d: So phd b: But , you always postdoc e: Wow . undergrad d: well I was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the , powering system . And I I was gonna do this very clever phantom power and I decided a couple days ago not to do it . So I think the other thing I 'd like to do is , do something about the set up phd b: See grad a: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized . Dan - Dan and I have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top to allow access to the mixer for example . undergrad d: But there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be it 'd be fine . You wouldn't necessarily Well , you s understand what I 'm grad a: Yeah , I understand . undergrad d: the the you can you can start start s sketching it out , grad a: So . undergrad d: and I can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of grad a: I need a desk at home too , alright ? Is that gonna be a better solution than just going out and buy one ? undergrad d: Well , the as we found out with the the thing that , Jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system the stuff you buy is total crap . Works fine for holding a Kleenex , grad a: Right , Kleenex and telephones . grad a: so yeah , I g I guess it 's just a question , is that something you wanna spend your time on ? undergrad d: Oh , I I 'm paid for . phd b: Oh , yeah ! grad a: I 'm telling you , I 'm just gonna cart one of them away if they stay there much longer . undergrad d: let the record show at at f four thirty - five Adam Janin says postdoc e: Wow . grad a: So , j , then the other question is do we wanna try to do a user interface that 's available out here ? phd b: Sorry ? undergrad d: Slipped almost slipped it by Dan . grad a: And how do we want to do that ? postdoc e: You mean like see see meter readings , from while sitting here . undergrad d: What 's wrong with yours ? If we bought you a a phd b: Oh , a Applecard . phd c: Well undergrad d: What ? grad a: I have an IRAM machine I 've borrowed and we can use it . phd b: I or the undergrad d: N no , I 'm I 'm I 'm serious . Does does the wireless thing work on your grad a: Wait , isn't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ? phd b: that 's an ethernet connection . grad a: We jus undergrad d: I 'm serious , that that it it phd b: Yeah . T to have it , just undergrad d: It 's very convenient especially if Dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and and look in the thing every so often , phd b: Yeah . And given given that we 've got a wireless that we 've got a we got the field . undergrad d: Y , we need obviously need to clear this with ACIRI but , how tough can that be ? There it you 'd all you need 's web access , isn't it ? phd b: W we don't need X access undergrad d: In in theory . That 's that 's what it does , undergrad d: OK , phd b: yeah . grad a: phd b: So grad a: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem . phd b: With a with a with a w undergrad d: No , and he he had , reque @ @ my my proposal is you have a laptop . undergrad d: If if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the the phd b: No , I would love to but I 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave LAN thing they 're using . phd b: Well Apple has their own thing , right ? phd c: He 's undergrad d: Your new one ? grad a: Airport . phd b: Yeah , I think what I think you I think it just plug plugs in a PC card , so you could probably make it run with that , but . grad a: The question is , is there an Apple driver ? undergrad d: I e phd b: Yeah , I 'm sure . But anyway there are there are abs there are a bunch of machines at ICSI that have those cards undergrad d: But the two t phd b: and so I think if w if it doesn't we should be able to find a machine that does that . I I know that doesn't don't don't the important people have those little blue VAIOs that undergrad d: Well , b that to me that 's a whole nother . undergrad d: The the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward . undergrad d: The idea of being able to walk into their office and say , " oh , can I borrow your machine for a while " , is is is a non - starter . So , either either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already in the group already owns , a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not not a disadvan or else we we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose . undergrad d: Certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time . undergrad d: I I I I 'm I 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people , grad a: Right . undergrad d: right ? Which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way grad a: Yeah . undergrad d: and and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gonna walk up to it and go , " how come I can't get , you know , Pong on this " or , whatev grad a: I 've I 've borrowed the IRAM VAIO Sony thingy , phd c: Well grad a: and I don't think they 're ever gonna want it back . undergrad d: Well , the certainly , u you should give it a shot first See whether you you can get compatible stuff . Who knows , they might have an extra hardware s phd b: I 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . phd c: What is the , projector supposed to be hooked up to ? undergrad d: Good . There 's gonna be actually a a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . undergrad d: So people sitting here are going " testing , one , two , three " ! phd c: But , that 's another that 's another possibility that , you know , solves undergrad d: It a phd b: Yeah . phd b: That 's an end undergrad d: But but but I think the idea of having a control panel it 's that 's there in front of you is really cool . phd b: I think and , having having it on wireless is is the neatest way neatest way to do it . undergrad d: R grad a: I had undergrad d: As long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , " can you talk a bit louder ? " phd b: Yeah . grad a: I had actually earlier asked if I could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff phd b: Yeah . undergrad d: And and it 's a a PCMCIA card , right ? grad a: Yep . undergrad d: right ? In your new machine ? phd c: It 's it really come down to the driver . phd c: grad a: Right , and if and if his doesn't work , as I said , we can use the PC . undergrad d: Right , i it 'll it 'll work It 'll work the first time . phd b: grad a: So phd b: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other . grad a: So Jim is gonna be doing wiring and you 're gonna give some thought to cabinets ? undergrad d: y yeah . phd b: We 'd I think undergrad d: Hey , what are those green lights doing ? grad a: They 're flashing ! phd b: - oh ! - oh ! Does that it means it means it 's gonna explode . undergrad d: Cut the red wire , the red wire ! phd b: grad a: When people talk , it they go on and off . phd b: using using these undergrad d: And it and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if I 'm gonna do No . phd b: that 's true undergrad d: I have to do phd b: but we haven't spent that , right ? But once we once we 've done the intellectual part of these , we can just knock them out , right ? grad a: Cheap . phd b: And then we could Washington could have a system that didn't have any wireless but would had what 's based on these undergrad d: phd b: And that 's about cuz you wouldn't even need the mixer if you didn't have the Oh th the P Z undergrad d: Right . But anyway you 'd save , on the seven seven or eight thousand for the for the wireless system . undergrad d: What ? postdoc e: It 's nice it 's nice to be thinking toward that . grad a: There 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . phd c: Now , shorter words wouldn't would induce more dynamics , right ? You want to have phd b: Yeah , but if the words are more predictable . postdoc e: That 's a long word ! grad a: How do you spell that ? postdoc e: I don't know . grad a: OK , can you do one more round of digits ? Are we done talking ? undergrad d: Well it 's a choice if we get a choice , let 's keep talking . grad a: Are you done ? postdoc e: I 'm done , grad a: I 'm done . Like , you know , candy bars or something , grad a: I 'll I 'll remember to bring M and M 's next time . undergrad d: or or or or or a little , you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist . postdoc e: We don't know that for sure , do we ? grad a: I should have mentioned that s , to pause between lines but undergrad d: No , I know . grad a: It 's it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer . phd b: Tha - tha postdoc e: But I also think you said channel four grad a: Me . phd b: But they 're in order ! undergrad d: But real phd b: They start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine . undergrad d: Where 'd they come from ? phd b: And they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are have the numbers in digits . phd b: And so they 're actually this is like all the all utterances that were generated by speaker MPJ or something . phd b: It doesn't matter ! It 's like Cuz you said " six , seven , eight " . If I if not I undergrad d: But the real question I have is that , why bother with these ? postdoc e: Oh , interesting . undergrad d: Why don't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? Like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers . phd b: Cuz we have these writt written down , right ? grad a: Because Right . phd b: That 's why grad a: If we have it , undergrad d: I know . undergrad d: Credit card numbers , grad a: We don't have to tran undergrad d: yeah . undergrad d: Yeah , so you just say say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name . undergrad d: This grad a: Actually , this I got this directly from another training set , from Aurora . postdoc e: I was I the reason I made my mistake was grad a: What ? postdoc e: Wa - was this ? phd b: There were no there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good <doc-sep>grad d: I tried to go for the EE Cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: Three three six zero zero . grad a: You ever seen " So I married an axe murderer " ? grad c: parts of it . grad a: There 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in San Francisco , and he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like " excuse me I ordered the large espresso ? " grad d: . grad a: Wait do are y So you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: No ? . There was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: Ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: Seems like Seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . Well , I was thinking if y you guys have plans for Sunday ? We 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this Sunday , but we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . grad a: Well , I 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , I 'll be out of town . grad d: So you 're going to the west Bay then ? No , grad a: No , the South Bay , grad d: south Bay ? grad a: yeah . Wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: They are gonna get more comfortable headsets . I actually , even though Liz was kind enough to offer to be the first subject , I sort of felt that she knew too much , so I asked Litonya . grad d: So , this is what she saw as part of as for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . , that was really difficult for her and grad c: Because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: The names and this was the first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and then of course the system broke down , and those were the l I should say the system was supposed to break down and then these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human . And now comes the This is the phone - in phase of grad c: Wait , can I I have a question . So there 's no system , right ? Like , there was a wizard for both both parts , is this right ? grad d: Yeah . grad d: One time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . Isn't this kind of obvious when it says " OK now you 're talking to a human " and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: No no no . And the wizard sometimes will not be audible , Because she was actually they there was some lapse in the wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: Is she mispronouncing " Anlage " ? Is it " Anlaga " or " Anlunga " grad d: They 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: OK . Well , if we we professor b: So , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: There was a strange reflex . , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gonna not they 're subjects are probably not gonna going to follow the order . professor b: S so if you just number them " one " , " two " , " three " it 's grad d: Yeah , and make it sort of clear in the professor b: OK . That is something that Fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . grad d: And , another suggestion , by Liz , was that we , through subjects , switch the tasks . So when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we haven't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we don't tell the person " ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah " they still try , or at least Litonya tried to repeat as much of that text as possible . grad d: And my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because I think she did a wonderful job , professor b: Great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , " How much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer " so this is gonna happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . grad a: I wasn't wasn't sure whether wizard was the correct term for " not a man " . grad c: There 's no female equivalent of grad d: But grad a: Are you sure ? grad c: No , I don't know . grad d: Well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: Yeah , that 's so @ @ . grad c: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking , but grad d: and professor b: Right . And So , some some work needs to be done , but I think we can And this , and in case no you hadn't seen it , this is what Litonya looked at during the while taking the while partaking in the data collection . , do you know exactly how to do that , or is Lila , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: I 'm completely clueless , but I 'm willing to learn . So anyway , grad d: N professor b: So why don't you ask Lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: Student - type worker , professor b: Well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . professor b: So i if Yeah , I agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was , more , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than I would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: This is sort of what I gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: Yeah . grad d: and I didn't even spell it out here and in some cases I I spelled it out a little bit more thoroughly , professor b: Right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and , so i if we give her even more , instruments to work with I think the results are gonna be even better . professor b: Oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . And also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . professor b: And , she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so I think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gonna need to know , to do her career . professor b: So , I my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . grad d: And I told her that we gonna figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . She also agrees that you know if it 's all just gonna be students the data is gonna be less valuable because of that so . professor b: Well , as I say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: We 're already Yeah . professor b: grad d: However , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . We could talk to the people who run it and see if they have a way that they could easily tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: Now , I signed us up for the Wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . professor b: So , my idea on that was , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly I did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: Yep . So my idea on on Wednesday is partly to you , what you did today would i is just fine . You just do " this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . " But then , the other thing of course is we should give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . So , I don't I don't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . I don't think you should you don't have to make any new PowerPoint or anything . The other two things is we 've can have Johno tell us a little about this professor b: Great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , M - three - L enhancement , and then that was it , I think . grad a: So , what I did for this this is , a pedagogical belief - net because I was I I took I tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what I did was I took I made these dummy nodes called Trajector - In and Trajector - Out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . And then I did similar things for our our net to with the context and the discourse and whatnot , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . Let 's go Slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: Yeah , there 's just one more node and it says " Mode " which is the decision between the grad d: Yeah . grad a: So basically all I did was I took the last belief - net professor b: So grad a: and I grouped things according to what how I thought they would fit in to image schemas that would be related . And the two that I came up with were Trajector - landmark and then Source - path - goal as initial ones . grad a: And then I said well , the trajector would be the person in this case probably . grad a: you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: Right . And then in terms of the source , the things the only things that we had on there I believe were whether Oh actually , I kind of , I might have added these cuz I don't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but whether the where I 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: And " usefulness " is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . " Travel constraints " would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wanna take a bus or something like that , right ? And then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . Similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . , and then if you go up , Robert , Yeah , so , in terms of Context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . , Discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . grad a: Prosody I don't really I 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so I just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . grad a: the Parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said " I need to get there quickly " or whatever . grad a: And , in terms of World Knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: What 's " tourbook " ? grad a: Tourbook ? That would be , I don't know , the " landmark - iness " of things , grad d: So let me see if I can ask grad a: Well , this is not a working Bayes - net . No , I understand that , but but So , what Let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and Oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . So , you could imagine w , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: I I 'd No , I was gonna wait until professor b: Oh , OK . So , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real Bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f , fill it @ @ in , then grad a: So we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the Mode . And and Bhaskara and I was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge , combinatoric input to the Mode thing . And grad a: Well I oh yeah , I unders I understand that , I just it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . Let me just mention something that I don't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , I I slipped a paper to Bhaskara and about Noisy - OR 's and Noisy - MAXes and there 're ways to sort of back off on the purity of your Bayes - net - edness . If you co you could ima and I now I don't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: So it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that OK . grad a: So in that case , the sum we 'd have we , these wouldn't be the summary nodes . We 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were I guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: Yeah . professor b: So what I was gonna say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . So , if you have some bottom line decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . professor b: And the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you don't get this combinatorics . So that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , OK ? then you could say " Aha , let 's have these three factors " , OK ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . professor b: And then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . So that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: OK . professor b: given that we 're not gonna screw with the technology and just always use sort of orthodox Bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . and grad a: So what I kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: " Eh - eh - eh . , so , Robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . professor b: and , I understand where this the this is a way of playing with this abs Source - path - goal trajector exp abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . professor b: I don't think our friends on Wednesday are going to be able to Well , maybe they will . This is sort of th the second version and I I I look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , UML diagram or , you know , as just a screen shot , not really as a Bayes - net as John Johno said . grad a: We could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . But the the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: Alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and professor b: and see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of a module , if you wanna call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll throw the dice for you , throw the die for you , because I integrated this into the existing SmartKom system in in the same way as much the same way we can sort of have this this thing . So if this is what M - three - L will look like and what it 'll give us , And a very simple thing . We have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . grad d: And this these this changed now only , It 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is " Approach " and could be , you know , more refined in many ways . grad d: Or we can have something where the goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type " Enter " . So this is just based on this one , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . And so in the f if this pla if the object type here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be " Vista " . And this is about as much as we can do if we don't w if we want to avoid a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify " OK , if it 's this and this but that is not the case " , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . You 're you 're grad d: ? professor b: It was much too quick for me . So , I I do understand that you can take the M - three - L and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about object types and stuff , and what I think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say " If it 's of type " Landmark " , then you take you 're gonna take a picture of it . Ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: Every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . grad d: W professor b: that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing " OK , here 's a another kind of minimal way of tackling this " . Add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , " pppt ! " You do that . , then the question would be Now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , OK ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: ? professor b: Right ? So we don't we don't use the discourse , we don't use the context , we don't do any of those things . professor b: Alright , but that 's but that 's OK , and it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . And that 's something the SmartKom people themselves would they 'd say " Sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont " Right ? grad d: Yeah . And this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , we have this this silly interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . grad d: Now , the content I whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the Vista , Schema , Source , Path , Goal , whatever . grad d: This will be a job to find ways of writing down Image schema , X - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called " Constructicon " . And and here is exactly where what 's gonna be replaced with our Bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . This decides whether it 's an whether action the the Enter , the Vista , or the whatever professor b: " approach " , you called it , I think this time . This is so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic like parameters for the for the X - schema ? professor b: For for for Yes . So that that i if you had the generalized " Go " X - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . professor b: And then , although we haven't worried about this yet , you might wanna worry about something that would go to the GIS and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . professor b: But , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: So the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: Aspects of the X - schema to add . professor b: Yeah , so the pro The immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . professor b: You know , what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: Right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: The harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gonna get it ? And that the the that 's the hardest problem . So , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . The h So , I think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: OK . , and that 's so , getting back to here , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we don't want all the com grad a: There 's just too many factors right now . professor b: So we wanna think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: So what we really wanna do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wanna b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: Right . , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . So instead of in instead it should really be just be " intention " as a node instead of " intention business " or " intention tour " . professor b: OK ? So you Yeah , right , and then it would have values , " Tour " , " Business " , or " Hurried " . professor b: But then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wanna break this up , what really matters . grad a: I think what was going through my mind when I did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: Well , you you could do that . And it 's perfectly OK to insist that that , you know , th , they add up to one , but that there 's that that it doesn't have to be one zero zero . So you could have the conditional p So the each of these things is gonna be a a a probability . So whenever there 's a choice , so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: Well , see I don't think those would be mutually professor b: OK grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: Absolutely right . professor b: And so that you might want to then have those b Th - Then they may have to be separate . professor b: So that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . It 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward toward where we wanna go . grad d: Also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a , a specification for some interface , here that takes the normal M - three - L , looks at it . Then we discussed in our pre - edu EDU meeting how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so we we may wanna decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . But this information is just M - three - L , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the GRS , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history some s some stuff . Based on we we have I was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , " were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? " , professor b: grad d: " were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? " , grad c: Right . So this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: Yeah . grad d: and then professor b: There will be rules , but they aren't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . So they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that " Agent " , yeah , " Agent " , whatever you wan wanna say , yeah , that is rule - driven , and can can can do things like that . And there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and carries out the decision , so it probably will . My guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s more another vector , OK , which can then be applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . So on once you pull that out , it could be that that says " Ah ! Now that we know that we gonna go ask the ontology something else . " OK ? Now that we know that it 's a bus trip , OK ? we didn't We didn't need to know beforehand , how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we gotta go find out more . So this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is , and , I had one more thing , the it needs to do Yeah . I think we I I can come up with a a code for a module that we call the " cognitive dispatcher " , which does nothing , professor b: OK . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . So maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and get this part , professor b: Oh , OK . In particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . What you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . And that there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you don't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . grad d: There 're no primitives upon which professor b: u u What are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: So I y I 'm just just there saying eee well you I know how to do any individual case , right ? but I don't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use deep cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . professor b: grad d: Maybe we sho should we a add then the " what 's this ? " domain ? N , we have to " how do I get to X " . Then we also have the " what 's this ? " domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: Could . grad d: Johno , actually , does not allow us to call them " intentions " anymore . professor b: Well , I I don't like the term either , so I have n i i i y w i i It grad d: But , I 'm sure the " what 's this ? " questions also create some interesting X - schema aspects . I 'm not a I 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: So . professor b: I 'm just saying that I 'm gonna hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . Well , no the Bayes the Bayes - nets The Bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . But what I 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different Bayes - nets , be the general . So that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you shouldn't have to do that differently for going to something , than for circling it , for telling someone else how to go there , grad d: Getting out of professor b: whatever it is . So that that , the the decision processes are gonna be different What you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . So all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . And pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with SmartKom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's something about the intent you know , the actual what people wanna do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gonna use in a general way . You might be able to to say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's Let 's say there 's a cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . So just from this local construction you know that you 're gonna hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . So if you say " how do I get into the castle " OK , then Or , you know , " what is there in the castle " or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . professor b: Alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: professor b: grad d: It 's unfortunate also that English has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . professor b: Well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: Yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . grad d: Parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . Oh yeah , b But an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever belief - net , or " X " that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . So , are we gonna be meeting here from now on ? I 'm I 'm happy to do that . We we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: so far I think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: Oh yeah . No I I think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wanna look at . grad d: Yeah ? The , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: Right . grad d: and also the the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: Right . Yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l No , it was great . grad d: So I think that , w Looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . grad d: and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence " How do you get there ? " was pretty standard . Nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: Right . , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: Yeah <doc-sep>grad a: So , I think this is gonna be a pretty short meeting because I have four agenda items , three of them were requested by Jane who is not gonna be at the meeting today . Does anyone besides Jane know what the transcription status is ? phd f: sort of , I do , peripherally . phd c: Is that English ? phd f: Well first of all with IBM I got a note from Brian yesterday saying that they finally made the tape for the thing that we sent them a week or week and a half ago phd d: That 's our system . grad a: Ugh ! phd f: and that it 's gone out to the transcribers and hopefully next week we 'll have the transcription back from that . grad a: C can I have a pen ? phd f: Jane seems to be moving right along on the transcriptions from the ICSI side . phd f: Yeah , so , I guess she 's hired some new transcribers phd d: Speaking grad e: Which meetings is she transcribing ? phd f: and well we 've we 've run out of E D Us because a certain number of them are , sort of awaiting to go to IBM . phd d: So does she have transcribers right now who are basically sitting idle because there 's no data back from IBM grad e: So we 're doing some in parallel . phd d: Because I I need to ask Jane whether it 's it would be OK for her , s some of her people to transcribe some of the initial data we got from the SmartKom data collection , which is these short like five or seven minute sessions . phd d: and we want it You know , we need The Again , we we have a similar logistic set - up where we are supposed to send the data to Munich grad a: Right . phd d: And so I wanted to ask Jane if if , you know , maybe one of their transcribers could could do since these are very short , that should really be , professor b: And it 's One session is only like seven professor b: So that should have ma many fewer And it 's also not a bunch of interruptions with people and all that , phd d: Right . And some of it is read speech , so we could give them the the thing that they 're reading professor b: right ? So . phd d: And so , I guess since she 's I was gonna ask her but since she 's not around I maybe I 'll professor b: Yeah , well it certainly seems phd d: if if that 's OK with you to to , you know , get that stuff to ask her for that , then I 'll do that . Yeah , if we 're held up on this other stuff a little bit in order to encompass that , that 's OK because I I , I still have high hopes that the that the IBM pipeline 'll work out for us , so it 's phd d: Yeah . phd f: Oh , yeah , and also related to the transcription stuff , so I 've been trying to keep a web page up to date f showing what the current status is of the trans of all the things we 've collected and what stage each meeting is in , in terms of whether it 's grad a: Can you mail that out to the list ? phd f: - , yeah I will . I That 's the thing that I sent out just to foo people saying can you update these pages grad a: Oh , OK , OK . phd f: and so that 's where I 'm putting it but I 'll I 'll send it out to the list telling people to look at it . So Jane also wanted to talk about participant approval , but I don't really think there 's much to talk about . professor b: You are going to grad a: I 'm gonna send out to the participants , with links to web pages which contain the transcripts and allow them to suggest edits . phd c: So but it 's just transcripts , not the not the audio ? grad a: Nope , they 'll have access to the audio also . phd f: So , the audio that they 're gonna have access to , will that be the uncompressed version ? Or will you have scripts that like uncompress the various pieces and grad a: Oh , that 's a good point . Yeah , it 's it 's probably going to have to be the uncompressed versions because , it takes too long to do random access decompression . Yeah , I was just wondering because we 're running out of the un - backed - up disk space on grad a: Well , that was the other point . phd f: Oh , was that another one ? grad a: Yep , that 's another agenda item . grad a: So , But that is a good point so we 'll get to that , too . I 've added some stuff that indes indexes by the meeting type MR , EDU , et cetera and also by the user ID . The back - end is , going more slowly as I s I think I said before just cuz I 'm not much of a Tcl - TK programmer . So I think Don and I are gonna work on that and and you and I can just talk about it off - line more . grad e: And , also , I was just showing Andreas , I got an X Waves kind of display , and I don't know how much more we can do with it with like the prosodic stuff where we have like stylized pitches and signals and the transcripts on the bottom grad a: Oh , cool . grad e: so , right now it 's just an X Waves and then you have three windows but I don't know , it looked pretty nice and I 'm sure it think it has potential for a little something , grad a: For a demo ? grad e: yeah , for a demo . grad e: So professor b: OK , so again , the issue is For July , the issue 's gonna be what can we fit into a Windows machine , and so on , but grad e: Oh . grad e: Well , we 'll see , phd c: I 've been putting together Transcriber things for Windows so i And I installed it on Dave Gelbart 's PC and it worked just fine . phd d: Really ? So is that Because there 's some people It would be cool if we could get that to work at at SRI phd c: Yeah . phd d: because the grad a: Well Transcriber is Tcl - TK , very generic with Snack , phd d: we have m m We have more Windows machines to run the phd c: Yeah . Yeah but But the problem is the version Transcriber works with , the Snack version , is one point six whatever and that 's not anymore supported . But I just wrote an email to to the author of to the Snack author and he sent me to one point six whatever library grad a: Well I thought it was packaged with Transcriber ? phd c: and so it works . Yeah , but then you can't add our patches and then the the new version is is totally different grad a: Oh . phd c: and you can't you can't access that so you have to install First install Tcl then install Snack and then install the Transcriber thing and then do the patches . Ugh ! phd d: I I wonder if if we should contribute our changes back to the authors so that they maintain those changes along phd c: Yeah . grad a: We have Yeah b it 's just hasn't made it into the release yet . phd f: So did you put the the NT version out on the Meeting Recorder page ? Or phd c: No , I haven't done that yet . professor b: So , can some of the stuff that Don 's talking about somehow fit into this , mean you just have a set of numbers that are associated with the grad e: Yeah . phd c: So grad e: Yeah , it 's basically ASCII files or binary files , whatever representation . Just three different It 's a waveform and just a stylized pitch vector basically so it 's phd d: So So Well grad e: we could do it in Matl - you could do it in a number of different places I 'm sure . phd d: But But it would be cool if the Transcriber interface had like another window for the you know , maybe above the waveform where it would show some arbitrary valued function that is that is you know time synchron ti ti time synchronous with the wavform . Again it 's it 's It 's more Tcl - T grad e: Yeah . grad a: So someone who 's familiar with Tcl - TK has to do it , phd d: Right . grad a: But it it seems to me that I c phd c: And grad a: It doesn't seem like having that real time is that necessary . grad e: What do you mean by real time ? Do you mean like phd f: Like being able to scroll through it and stuff for the demo . phd f: Is that what you mean ? grad a: It just seems to me jus grad e: It would be cool to see it phd f: Yeah . grad e: It would be cool like to see to hear it and see it , phd c: And to hear it . grad a: Sure , but I don't think I You can do all that just statically in phd c: Yeah . grad e: I think it would lose Yeah , y grad a: Just record the audio clip and show an image and I think that 's grad e: Right , right . , no , we 're talking about on the computer and and , I think when we were talking about this before we had littl this little demo meeting , grad e: Right . professor b: we sort of set up a range of different degrees of liveness that you could have and , the more live , the better , but , given the crunch of time , we may have to retreat from it to some extent . So I think For a lot of reasons , I think it would be very nice to have this Transcriber interface be able to show some other interesting signal along with it phd d: But , Anyway , jus just looking for ways that we could actually show what you 're doing , in to people . professor b: Cuz a lot of this stuff , particularly for Communicator , certainly a significant chunk of the things that we waved our arms about th originally had t had to do with prosodics It 'd be nice to show that we can actually get them and see them . So , we have a little bit of time before that becomes critical , but we are like ninety five percent , ninety eight percent on the scratch disks for the expanded meetings . grad a: And , my original intention was like we would just delete them as we needed more space , but unfortunately we 're in the position where we have to deal with all the meeting data all at once , in a lot of different ways . grad a: Yeah , there 're a lot of transcribers , phd c: Yeah . grad a: so all of those need to be expanded , and then people are doing chunking and I want to do , the permission forms , phd f: grad a: so I want those to be live , so there 's a lot of data that has to be around . One of the things I was thinking is we we just got these hundred alright , excuse me ten , SPARC - Blade SUN - Blades . grad a: And so it seems to me we could hang scratch disk on those because they 'll be in the machine room , they 'll be on the fast connection to the rest of the machines . phd f: Well , is there Why not just hang them off of Abbott , is there a grad a: Because there 's no more room in the disk racks on Abbott . phd f: You can put two phd d: Oh you mean you put them inside the pizza boxes for the grad a: Sure . grad a: So you can just go out and buy a PC hard drive and stick it in . professor b: But if Abbott is going to be our disk server it it file server it seems like we would want to get it , a second disk rack or something . What I 'm looking for is where do we s expand the next meeting ? phd c: Yep . professor b: Well , for the next meeting you might be out of luck with those ten , mightn't you ? , you know Dave Johnson is gone for , like , ten days , grad a: Oh , I didn't know he had left already . grad e: How much space do you need for these ? professor b: I don't know what his schedule is . phd f: I I thi grad e: I have I have an eighteen gig drive hanging off of my computer . grad a: Alright ! What 's your computer 's name ? grad e: So , Samosa . grad a: And you 're o you 're offering ? grad e: I 'm not doing anything on it right now until I get new meetings to transcri or that are new transcriptions coming in I really can't do anything . grad e: not that I can't do anything , I jus phd f: I I jus I just gave Thilo some about ten gigs , the last ten gigs of space that there was on on Abbott . And So but that But grad a: Which one was that , X G ? X G ? phd c: XG . phd d: That 's also where we store the The Hub - five training set waveforms , phd c: Oops . grad a: But that won't be getting any bigger , phd d: right ? phd f: No . grad a: will it ? phd f: I don't think that 's on XG . phd d: But I 've also been storing I 've been storing the feature files there and I guess I can s start deleting some because we now know what the best features are grad e: Well phd d: and we won't be using the old ones anymore . phd d: Oh thats XA Oh that 's X phd c: Isn't that XH ? phd f: I th grad a: Not not for long . grad e: I have a lot of space and it 's not it 's n There 's very little Yeah not for long . phd d: Maybe I 'm confu grad e: But it 's not going f phd d: Oh no I 'm sorry . grad a: Yeah , it 's probably Probably only about four gig is on X on your X drive , phd c: So . grad a: but we 'll definitely take it up if you grad e: I th phd d: I think you 're right . It 's XH and D grad e: I think it 's about four or five gig cuz I have four meetings on there , phd d: The b I 'm also using DG I got that confused . grad a: The " more disk space " button ? professor b: Just press Press each meeting saying " we need more disk space " " this week " . professor b: And And how much does each meeting take ? phd f: And it 's about a gig uncompressed . phd c: It 's It 's a little bit more as I usually don't do not uncompress the all of the PZM and the PDA things . So there 's what thirty some gig of just meetings so far ? professor b: So - so So maybe there 's a hundred gig or something . Well we We haven't uncompressed all the meetings , but grad a: I would like to . it 's just a question of figuring out where they should be and hanging them , grad a: Yep . professor b: but But , we could You know , if you want to get four disks , get four disks . Well I sent that message out to , I guess , you and Dave asking for if we could get some disk . phd f: I s I sent this out a a day ago grad a: And put it where ? professor b: Right . phd f: but and Dave didn't respond so I don I don't know how the whole process works . does he just go out and get them and if it 's OK , and grad a: Yep . And just say an - e just ask him that , you know , wha what should you do . And in my answer back was " are you sure you just want one ? " So I think that what you want to do is plan ahead a little bit and figure " well , here 's what we pi figure on doing for the next few months " . So this is a question that 's pretty hard to solve without talking to Dave , phd d: Th - The phd f: I think part of the reason why Dave can't get the the new machines up is because he doesn't have room in the machine room right now . phd d: One One On - One thing to in to t to do when you need to conserve space is phd f: So he has to re - arrange a bunch of stuff . phd d: I bet there are still some old , like , nine gig disks , around and you can probably consolidate them onto larger disks and and you know recover the space . An - and so , he always has a a lot of plans of things that he 's gonna do to make things better in many ways an and runs out of time . And so I think what he 's been concentrating on is the back the back up system , rather than on new disk . Basically , we can easily get one to four disks , you just go out and get four and we 've got the money for it , it 's no big deal . , but the question is where they go , and I don't think we can solve that here , you just have to ask him . grad a: Yeah , it 's just It 's not on the net , so it 's a little awkward phd d: The only phd f: . phd d: What do you mean it 's not on the net ? grad a: It 's not phd c: It 's not bad . grad a: It 's behind lots of fire walls that don't allow any services through except S S phd d: Oh because it 's because it 's an ACIRI machine ? grad a: Yep . grad a: And also on the list is to get it into the normal ICSI net , but Who knows when that will happen ? phd d: But that can't be that hard . phd d: grad a: No , the the problem with that apparently is that they don't currently have a wire running to that back room that goes anywhere near one of the ICSI routers . If there was a person dedicated to doing it they would happen pretty easily but it 's it 's jus every ever everybody everybody has a has grad a: But Dave has to do all of them . But at any rate I think that there 's a there 's a longer term thing and there 's immediate need and I think we need a a conversation with , maybe maybe after after tea or something you and I can go down and and talk to him about it Just say " wha you know , what should we do right now ? " phd f: How long is David gonna be gone ? professor b: eleven days or something ? grad a: Oh my ! professor b: Yeah basically tomorrow and all of the week after . The only oth thing other thing I was gonna add was that , I talked briefly to Mari and we had both been busy with other things so we haven't really connected that much since the last meeting we had here but we agreed that we would have a telephone meeting the Friday after next . And I I I wanted to make it , after the next one of these meetings , so something that we wanna do next meeting is is to put together , a kind of reasonable list for ourselves of what is it , that we 've done . just sort of bulletize o e do do I can I can dream up text but this is basically gonna lead to the annual report . grad a: This is the fifteenth ? So just a week from tomorrow ? professor b: that would grad a: OK . So , we can This So that 's an phd d: Is this gotta be in the morning ? professor b: phd d: Or Because you know I Fridays I have to leave like around two . So if it could be before that would be be professor b: No , no but I I I don't need other folks for the meeting . professor b: Yeah so what I meant was on the me this meeting if I wa something I I I 'm making a major thing in the agenda is I wanna help in getting together a list of what it is that we 've done so I can tell her . professor b: but but , and then the next day , late in the day I 'll be having that that discussion with her . phd d: One thing we in past meetings we had also a you know various variously talked about the work that w was happening sort of on the on the recognition side professor b: And I wondered whether we should maybe have a separate meeting and between you know , whoever 's interested in that because I feel that there 's plenty of stuff to talk about but it would be sort of maybe the wrong place to do it in this meeting if professor b: Think so ? phd d: Well , it 's that It 's just gonna be ver very boring for people who are not you know , sort of really interested in the details of the recognition system . professor b: Well , OK , so how many how many people here would not be interested in in a meeting about recognition ? phd c: Me too . phd d: Well I know Well , Jane an Well you mean in a separate meeting or ha ha talking about it in this grad a: No . professor b: Real grad e: Watch a ball game ? professor b: Yeah , real real real men " Real men do decoding " or something like that . phd d: it it 's sort of when when the talk is about data collection stuff , sometimes I 've you know , I I 'm bored . grad a: The Nod off ? phd d: So it 's I c I can sympathize with them not wanting to i to to be you know If I cou you know this could professor b: It 's cuz y you have a So you need a better developed feminine side . phd d: I 'm professor b: There 's probably gonna be a lot of " bleeps " in this meeting . You know , whatev or whenever we feel like we phd f: Right , I was Why don't we alternate this meeting every other week ? grad a: Or just alternate the focus . grad a: Oh sor phd f: But I do I don't a lot of times lately it seems like we don't really have enough for a full meeting on Meeting Recorder . phd f: So if we could alternate the focus of the meeting grad a: Let 's read digits and go . professor b: And then if we find , you know we 're just not getting enough done , there 's all these topics not coming up , then we can expand into another meeting . Let 's chat about it with Liz and Jane when we get a chance , see what they think and phd d: phd f: and there 's lots of things , you know , details and stuff that would I think people 'd be interested in and I 'd you know , where do we go from here kind of things and So , it would be good . professor b: Yeah , and you 're you 're attending the the front - end meeting as well as the others so you have you have probably one of the best you and I , I guess are the main ones who sort of see the bridge between the two . phd d: I jus So the latest result was that yot I tested the the sort of final version of the PLP configuration on development test data for for this year 's Hub - five test set . phd d: And the recognition performance was exactly , and exactly up to the you know , the first decimal , same as with the Mel Cepstra front - end . , well i there was a little bit of a phd f: Oh ! phd d: i overall . phd d: And then the really nice thing was that if if we combine the two systems we get a one and a half percent improvement . phd d: Which u actually uses the whole N - best list from both systems to mmm , c combine that . professor b: So except the only key difference between the two really is the kind of smoothing at the end which is the auto - regressive versus the cepstral truncation . phd d: And , the phd f: But a percent and a half ? grad a: Yeah , it 's pretty impressive . phd f: That 's phd d: And And so after I told the my colleagues at SRI about that , you know , now they definitely want to , you know , have a Next time we have an evaluation they want to do , you know , basically a at least the system combination . , and , you know , why not ? professor b: Sure , why not ? phd d: . phd d: w what do you mean ? More features in the sense of front - end features or in the sense of just bells and whistles ? grad a: No , front - end features . Let 's , you know , try RASTA and MSG , and phd d: Oh Yeah . That 's the the the There 's one thing you don't want to overdo it because y every front - end You know , if you you know you basically multiply your effort by N , where N is a number of different systems phd f: Oh . So one one compromise would be to only to have the everything up to the point where you generate lattices be basically one system and then after that you rescore your lattices with the multiple systems and combine the results and that 's a fairly painless thing . phd f: Do you think we 'd still get the one and a half phd d: I I think so . Maybe a little less because at that point the error rates are lower and so if You know , maybe it 's only one percent or something but that would still be worthwhile doing . Jus - You know , just wanted to let you know that that 's working out very nicely . phd d: And then we had some results on digits , with We We So this was really really sort of just to get Dave going with his experiments . But as a result , you know , we were sort of wondering why is the Hub - five system doing so well on the digits . phd d: And the reason is basically there 's a whole bunch of read speech data in the Hub - five training set . phd d: And you c And Not all of No it 's actually , digits is only a maybe a fifth of it . professor b: A fifth of it is how much ? phd d: The rest is is read is read TIMIT data and ATIS data and Wall Street Journal and stuff like that . But a fi a fifth is how much ? phd d: A fifth would be maybe two hours something . professor b: Yeah , so that 's actually not that different from the amount of training that there was . phd d: But it definitely helps to have the other read data in there professor b: Oh yeah phd d: because we 're doing professor b: w phd d: You know the error rate is half of what you do if you train only on ti TIMIT not TIMIT TI - digits , professor b: phd d: That 's e professor b: Because because , it was apparent if you put in a bunch more data it would be better , phd d: That was e Right , right . So we only for the Hub - five training , we 're only using a fairly small subset of the Macrophone database . grad a: I could also put in focus condition zero from Hub - four from Broadcast News , which is mostly prepared speech . So , you know that might be useful for the people who train the the digit recognizers to to use something other than TI - digits . They they they experimented for a while with a bunch of different databases with French and Spanish and so forth cuz they 're multilingual tests phd d: professor b: But but yeah certainly if we , If we knew what the structure of what we 're doing there was . professor b: Once we know , then the trainable parts of it it 'd be great to run lots of lots of stuff through . And then I th guess Chuck and I had some discussions about how to proceed with the tandem system and You wanna You wanna see where that stands ? phd f: Well , I 'm phd d: phd f: Yeah , so Andreas brought over the alignments that the SRI system uses . And so I 'm in the process of converting those alignments into label files that we can use to train a new net with . phd d: An - And one side effect of that would be that it 's that the phone set would change . So the MLP would be trained on I think only forty - six or forty - eight phd f: Right . phd d: which is smaller than the than the phone set that that we 've been using so far . phd d: And that that that will probably help , actually , phd f: So it 's a little different ? phd d: because the fewer dimensions e the less trouble probably with the as far as just the , Just You know we want to try things like deltas on the tandem features . And so , you know , fewer dimensions in the phone set would be actually helpful just from a logistics point of view . Although we , it 's not that many fewer and and and we take a KLT anyway so we could phd d: Right . And then we wanted to s just limit it to maybe something on the same order of dimensions as we use in a standard front - end . So that would mean just doing the top I don't know ten or twelve or something of the KLT dimensions . My impression was that when we did that before that had very little he didn't lose very much . phd d: But then And then something Once we have the new M L P trained up , one thing I wanted to try just for the fun of it was to actually run like a standard hybrid system that is based on you know , those features and retrain MLP and also the you know , the dictionary that we use for the Hub - five system . professor b: And the b And the base u starting off with the base of the alignments that you got from i from a pretty decent system . phd d: because you know , compared to what Eric did a while ago , where he trained up , I think , a system based on Broadcast News and then tra retraining it on Switchboard or s and professor b: Yeah . phd d: But he I think he d he didn't he probably didn't use all the training data that was available . We we made some improvements to the dictionary 's to the dictionary about two years ago which resulted in a something like a four percent absolute error rate reduction on Switchboard , which professor b: Well the other thing is , dipping deep into history and into our resource management days , when we were collaborating with SRI before , phd d: professor b: it was I think , it is was a really key starting point for us that we actually got our alignment . professor b: When we were working together we got our initial alignments from Decipher , at the time . Later we got away from it because because once we had decent systems going then it was it was typically better to use our own systems phd f: Yeah . professor b: cuz they were self consistent but but certainly to start off when we were trying to recover from our initial hundred and forty percent error rate . professor b: And we 're not quite that bad with our our Switchboard systems but it was they certainly aren't as good as SRI 's , phd d: OK . phd f: W What is the performance on s the best Switchboard system that we 've done ? Roughly ? professor b: Well , the hybrid system we never got better than about fifty percent error . And it was I think there 's just a whole lot of things that no one ever had time for . we always had a list of a half dozen things that we were gonna do and and a lot of them were pretty simple and we never did . professor b: we never did an never did any adaptation phd d: But that w Even that that number professor b: we never did any phd d: Right . And And that number I think was on Switchboard - one data , right ? Where the error rate now is in the twenties . phd d: So it would be So it would be good t to sort of r re professor b: Yeah . And the other thing that that would help us to evaluate is to see how well the M L P is trained up . phd d: So it 's sort of a sanity check of the M L P outputs before we go ahead and train up the you know , use them as a basis for the tandem system . Not phd f: Should we Should we bother with using the net before doing embedded training ? professor b: But . phd d: But phd f: should should we even use that ? phd d: Oh oh that 's a good question . phd f: Or should I just go straight to phd d: Yeah , we we weren't sure whether it 's worth to just use the alignments from the S R I recognizer or whether to actually go through one or more iterations of embedded training where you realign . You run it ? Keep keep both versions ? See which one 's better ? professor b: yeah . professor b: And while it 's training you may as well test the one you have and see how it did . You know , it 's phd d: But But so I grad a: Sort of given up guessing . phd d: Well but i But in your experience have you seen big improvements in s on some tasks with embedded training ? Or was it sort of small - ish improvements that you got professor b: well . professor b: because we 're coming from , alignments that were achieved with an extremely different system . grad a: Although , we 've done it with When we were combining with the Cambridge recurrent neural net , embedded training made it worse . phd d: So you you started training with outputs from a with alignments that were generated by the Cambridge system ? grad a: Yep . professor b: Oh ! phd d: No it 's weird that it did I 'm sorry . Tha - u we we 've see and wi with the numbers OGI numbers task we 've seen a number of times people doing embedded trainings and things not getting better . phd d: Oh actually it 's not that weird because we have seen We have seen cases where acoustic retraining the acoustic models after some other change made matters worse rather than better . professor b: But I But I would I would suspect that something that that had a very different feature set , for instance they were using pretty diff similar feature sets to us . professor b: I I would expect that something that had a different feature set would would benefit from phd d: professor b: sorry , it was the other thing is that what was in common to the Cambridge system and our system is they both were training posteriors . professor b: So , that 's another pretty big difference grad a: That 's another big difference . professor b: and , one bac at least Back at phd d: You mean with soft targets ? Or ? Sorry , I 'm sor I missed What What 's the key issue here ? professor b: Oh , that both the Cambridge system and our system were were training posteriors . And if we 're we 're coming from alignments coming from the SRI system , it 's a likelihood - based system . You know , there 's diffe different front - end different different , training criterion , I would think that in a that an embedded embedded training would have at least a good shot of improving it some more . I was wondering you know what size net I should Anybody have any intuitions or suggestions ? professor b: how much training data ? phd f: Well , I was gonna start off with the small train set . professor b: And how How many hours is that ? phd f: That 's why I was I I 'm not sure how much that is . phd d: I think that has about Well i you 'd would be gender - dependent training , right ? So So I think it 's that 's about mmm , something like thirty hours . phd f: In the small training set ? grad a: Hello ? phd d: I I think so . I 'll grad a: Excuse me ? phd d: It 's definitely less than a hundred grad a: Alright . It 's it 's th the thing I 'll I 'll think about it a little more phd d: It 's m It 's more than phd f: And a thousand is too small ? professor b: Oh let me think about it , but I think that that th at some point there 's diminishing returns . professor b: but it but but there is diminishing returns and you 're doubling the amount of time . phd d: Remember you 'll have a smaller output layer so there 's gonna be fewer parameters there . phd d: And then professor b: Fifty s Fifty four to forty eight ? grad a: Vast majority is from the input unit . grad a: Right , because you used the context windows and so the input to hidden is much , much larger . professor b: Yeah , so it 's it 'd be way , way less than ten percent of the difference . What am I trying to think of ? phd f: The The net that that we did use already was eight thousand hidden units and that 's the one that Eric trained up . professor b: So , yeah definitely not the one thousand two thousand fr the four thousand will be better and the two thousand will be almost will be faster and almost as good . a four thousand is well within the range that you could benefit from but the two thousand 'd be faster so phd d: Right

The team discussed the involvement of various institutions, such as the University of Washington and Santa Barbara, in the transcription task. They were interested in understanding how the diversity of sound would impact their data. Additionally, the team expressed the need for more corpora and the inclusion of more students in future meetings. During the trial run of the interface, Litonya served as the first subject, with Fey acting as the wizard. The team was pleased with Fey's performance and decided to hire her. Based on Fey's suggestion, they also agreed to introduce the wizard in a more appropriate manner. Furthermore, the team acknowledged that the run was too long, lasting 5 minutes. PhD B conducted an experiment to enhance the backend performance of the Aurora recognizer, focusing on the recognition of the HTK system and challenging the canonical paradigm. Specifically, PhD B concentrated on Italian and experimented with the number of states for different words, believing that training for each case could improve performance by accounting for variance differences. The Professor considered the experiments to be relatively simple, so computational power was not a concern. Additionally, he proposed increasing the number of states from six to nine. In a lighthearted moment, the team joked about one meeting being a "guys" meeting due to the absence of female members. They also engaged in casual banter, including the use of foul language and joking about the amount of bleeping required for the transcription.

Summarize the discussion on the transcription pipeline, the details about setting up the wizard and recruiting participants, and the improvements made to the back recognizer for the Aurora task. Additionally, explain PhD B's approach to the back-end of the Aurora recognizer and the professor's opinion on improving the back recognizer. Lastly, mention any humorous moments related to scheduling meetings.

I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—? sharon davies: No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement? nick williams: Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions? sharon davies: When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools. lynne neagle am: So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in? sharon davies: I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system. nick williams: May I answer this in Welsh? lynne neagle am: Of course, yes. nick williams: The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS? nick williams: I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. lynne neagle am: And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales? sharon davies: I would say the majority have. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners. nick williams: Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. sian gwenllian am: May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions? sharon davies: In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools. sian gwenllian am: Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—? sharon davies: I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system. sian gwenllian am: But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act? sharon davies: Yes. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. sian gwenllian am: And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority? david hopkins: Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through. sian gwenllian am: And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions? sharon davies: As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on. nick williams: Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners? nick williams: Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa. janet finch-saunders am: Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. nick williams: But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on. In your view— lynne neagle am: Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. , how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education? sharon davies: As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible. david hopkins: I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. , that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what . It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that. lynne neagle am: And which authority is that? david hopkins: I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point. sharon davies: A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision? nick williams: Capacity— janet finch-saunders am: What? Sorry, I missed that. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status? nick williams: Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site? nick williams: I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision. janet finch-saunders am: And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent. nick williams: The schools would have to make sure that— janet finch-saunders am: But is that happening, do you know? nick williams: Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools? nick williams: Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. sharon davies: In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition? sharon davies: Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition? janet finch-saunders am: I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means. janet finch-saunders am: I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through— lynne neagle am: I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even. sharon davies: I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home. janet finch-saunders am: Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.] sharon davies: Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. janet finch-saunders am: What about if they're in a private setting? nick williams: If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using— janet finch-saunders am: Is that widespread around Wales? nick williams: I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. david hopkins: Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. lynne neagle am: What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee? nick williams: I think it's, you know— lynne neagle am: It was the WLGA paper, actually. nick williams: It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that? david hopkins: In general terms—. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess. sian gwenllian am: And does that worry you? david hopkins: Me? sian gwenllian am: The WLGA. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern. sian gwenllian am: In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered? nick williams: To be honest, we are— sian gwenllian am: In the PRUs? nick williams: To be honest, they are broad and balanced. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way. nick williams: They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. sian gwenllian am: No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements. sian gwenllian am: With the curriculum? nick williams: Yes, and in terms of collaboration. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. david hopkins: If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. dawn bowden am: There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that. nick williams: We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system. sharon davies: It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have. dawn bowden am: And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that? sharon davies: I think it's limited. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS? nick williams: Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. sharon davies: Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support? nick williams: Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. sian gwenllian am: But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. lynne neagle am: Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs? sharon davies: I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—? janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales? nick williams: Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking— janet finch-saunders am: What provision in the north? nick williams: I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south— janet finch-saunders am: Oh, sorry, north of Powys. nick williams: For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue. lynne neagle am: Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue? david hopkins: I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school. dr ian johnson: I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that? dr ian johnson: I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to. sarah stone: What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions? dr ian johnson: Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available. liz williams: I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. sarah stone: And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue. dr ian johnson: Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS? sarah stone: Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to. dr ian johnson: I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education? sarah stone: So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well. dr ian johnson: I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed? liz williams: I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important. sarah stone: And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture— janet finch-saunders am: It's very bad in north Wales. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. liz williams: Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—? dr ian johnson: The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be. dawn bowden am: I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision? dr ian johnson: I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done. dawn bowden am: I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals? liz williams: Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. dawn bowden am: You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common? liz williams: Absolutely, yes. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that. dawn bowden am: And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. dr ian johnson: If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all? dr ian johnson: We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that? sarah stone: Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. dawn bowden am: Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be? liz williams: I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about. dr ian johnson: There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population. sarah stone: Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this. I think some of them have been covered, but— sian gwenllian am: Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded? dr ian johnson: I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system. sian gwenllian am: And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support? dr ian johnson: The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at. liz williams: And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well. Any other questions? sian gwenllian am: Well, unless you want to sum up—? dr ian johnson: Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come. lynne neagle am: Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area? liz williams: Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations. Ian? dr ian johnson: I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations. sarah stone: I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

The new Act is expected to put additional pressure on schools, as agreed upon by David Hopkins and Sharon Davies. However, Hopkins dismissed the notion that the delegation levels would have any impact. He suggested that headmasters and local authorities should approach the new Act with a more constructive mindset, as it would be beneficial for the post-16 sector. Hopkins also expressed his belief that the delegation levels were sufficient in most authority areas, thanks to agreements with the government to ensure adequate funding for schools. The decisive factor, according to Hopkins, was the narrow measure at the end of Stage 4, which led headmasters to either exclude students or transfer them to another school.

What were David Hopkins' thoughts on the new Act and what factor did he consider as the cause of exclusions?

project manager: Are we done ? Right , okay , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place . industrial designer: project manager: right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ? marketing: no that's okay , project manager: Okay , marketing: sorry . project manager: we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment . project manager: that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . , our budget would have to affect try not to reflect our budget , that we might have a bit of oh oh you can see it , okay . industrial designer: project manager: want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel for further features like programming , things like that . , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ? marketing: is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information , project manager: No that's fine , that's fine . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ? project manager: F_N_ function F_ eight . project manager: industrial designer: 'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What the first thing question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel or the volume , everything is just some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that well it wasn't really my area because I'm dealing with the inside really . So , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one . project manager: industrial designer: and I found out that most controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of something like the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else so we could shrink down the size of the control . marketing: is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the surrounding it ? industrial designer: no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries , marketing: marketing: Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ? industrial designer: Yeah the the user interface: Okay . industrial designer: well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption marketing: Oh I see . industrial designer: and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . Now the main components I came up with were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , as I said about the w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the interface designer . user interface: industrial designer: It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the U_I_ interface which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to whatever whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , we want the it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are low in cost so that that should be good . it should should be different enough from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa thing that you could have , marketing: . marketing: That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present . industrial designer: Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there , project manager: Okay , thank you very much . industrial designer: so if you wanna project manager: would you like to continue on from that ? user interface: Yep . user interface: but basically my method was like whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll take a feedback from the marketing because , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will this two features together . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like it could be accessed by a wide ra range of audience and we can punch in new f features such as added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not of no use of punching in the trying to put in those things in on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production by fifty million we said ? Yeah , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in add in more features and make it less costly . , that's so this is if you ask me personally , I would make flip-top with a trendy design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after continuous use usage and all that . project manager: okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , industrial designer: Yeah sure . user interface: I think you'll have to marketing: Have I got to keep this here ? user interface: You can't marketing: Does it matter ? user interface: It'll have to this can't be pulled . marketing: I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ? project manager: We just do the best we can . marketing: Okay , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot , user interface: Yeah . , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were something that you you mentioned earlier , remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . thirty four percent of people take said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . marketing: but I think I'll just keep it simple , industrial designer: marketing: if there's any more information I can email you extra details , user interface: That's fine . project manager: we have new project requirements , we're not going to be using teletext , user interface: Okay . our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that it limits the cost for us , user interface: marketing: - , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ? project manager: It says for T_V_ only , so looks like it's just marketing: Just channel-hopping . project manager: yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . I d well I dunno 'cause the w if you've g project manager: you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so . user interface: Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ? marketing: Yes . marketing: we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about ten percent of the buttons , user interface: Ten perc project manager: . marketing: I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare user interface: Okay . industrial designer: Ju just as an idea on the speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing marketing: marketing: In fact I've just called up that table there , industrial designer: Alright , okay . marketing: we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ? industrial designer: Alright , okay . marketing: So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there , project manager: marketing: and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology . project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: Yeah but on on that again I just thought 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is user interface: project manager: We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing marketing: . project manager: because it is something I it needs to be the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: maybe on the T_V_ you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps user interface: Okay . project manager: and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . so we want logo , we want fashionable , trendy , what you were talking about with the marketing . marketing: Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty project manager: Yeah . What is attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno , project manager: . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world . user interface: So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs ? project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs user interface: Alright . user interface: So project manager: What about you were talking about the buttons , user interface: Yeah . project manager: the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , 'cause we got to make it original , what about you know with the touch screen computers industrial designer: 'Kay . project manager: yeah ? so you it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the user interface: industrial designer: No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to you don't actually have to press them you just project manager: You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it . project manager: think that might appeal I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking young , office people , marketing: . marketing: Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def project manager: but quite , easily labelled so that anyone can oh yeah that's obvious what that's for marketing: project manager: and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , marketing: - , . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics there's sort of physically different things 'cause if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big project manager: Were too big . industrial designer: so they couldn't get round the controller which is so if you I don't know what 'cause you obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others . user interface: Yeah , maybe to as it it was indicated that risk of repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that . user interface: So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi dividing it according to the countries also , the market . user interface: Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , . project manager: It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different possibilities , . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . marketing: I'm j I really can't get my head round this one , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about . industrial designer: I yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel marketing: . project manager: which is extremely expensive , industrial designer: but project manager: I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue . Do we have to initially , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . user interface: If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ? industrial designer: Ge marketing: And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people . project manager: We are we're talking about the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want it to be fashionable , marketing: project manager: they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume associate that with the older generations . project manager: Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range , business kind of class type people . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate project manager: marketing: and you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this . project manager: we've got the video , now there's I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details , industrial designer: Video plus . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that industrial designer: Yeah yeah . project manager: because you've got your general record anyway so if you there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in industrial designer: Just whack in the number . project manager: and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that , industrial designer: And you w project manager: it's just a number . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need a whole host of extra buttons for that , project manager: No . industrial designer: you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway , project manager: You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway . project manager: It is industrial designer: project manager: after if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards industrial designer: It's not Yeah . project manager: and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth marketing: Ah , . project manager: so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times , marketing: Right . industrial designer: It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things . project manager: No it's not but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that marketing: Superb . industrial designer: Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on project manager: . project manager: Okay so marketing: Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ? industrial designer: . project manager: industrial designer: But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they the companies who who you deal with have actually they've they've got an obligation to to help you out marketing: . industrial designer: and also it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having marketing: Right . project manager: The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ? marketing: Alright . Yes user interface: marketing: If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel , industrial designer: marketing: but for if there were any more or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video , project manager: I think so . project manager: there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , . user interface: I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to for a phone maybe he might walk down the street , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: And they're marketing: Not for such simple functions industrial designer: yeah , they should be f yeah . project manager: It does , industrial designer: It's the project manager: you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about . project manager: what other functions ? We need I'm not sure if we need a design decision now , but we should think about c 'cause you've got the dilemma between oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ? industrial designer: they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , you could you could bundle a charger in with it but project manager: Well they la they they last quite a long time , industrial designer: project manager: and if you had when you th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged . industrial designer: Yeah and if yeah if you if you had if you had one of those just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could project manager: Yeah it could be on that yeah , okay . user interface: So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ? project manager: S industrial designer: Yeah project manager: Yes . industrial designer: and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either , marketing: project manager: because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many how much you try and make it simple , marketing: . project manager: marketing: And we don't w so many remote controls look absolutely identical , project manager: They do . marketing: these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that . project manager: user interface: What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h came up with almost six or seven years back . user interface: That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here , marketing: user interface: and you don't have to you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat . user interface: G so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . user interface: y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your marketing: . user interface: the way you h hold of it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that . project manager: Can you look into the company logo ? , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product . project manager: for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something , user interface: project manager: something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite obviously into the design , marketing: project manager: while also making it quite different from anything else that's there . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells , marketing: look at the mobile . user interface: logo could become as you could put a logo in the corner of the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like . marketing: I think that's that sounds a really attractive idea , user interface: A sea shell ? marketing: I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of yeah and that opens out into your flip-top . marketing: Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . marketing: and plus you can get you know even though we're using plastic , you can still think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior . project manager: Or you could do different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . project manager: So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and marketing: Yeah . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa project manager: Yeah . marketing: and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't not gonna lose it so much either . user interface: Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are whichever appeals the most like , project manager: Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , marketing: Can I just quickly go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything . marketing: So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video , user interface: project manager: That was in cutting down the number that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date marketing: Right . Right , so when they press for programming you it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and Or was is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just that was an add-on feature ? project manager: It's kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ? project manager: it could be it c It yes , industrial designer: Yeah . And it also paid lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful . marketing: Was there anything else there that we in the new new project requirements ? project manager: user interface: Yeah . project manager: We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at , project manager: Yes . marketing: what preference so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like . project manager: And we've talked about there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the I the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , . I think user interface: Yep , project manager: Yep , user interface: I think project manager: and different from what's out there . marketing: What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ? industrial designer: Okay . marketing: Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ? project manager: I think you might get guidance , but I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing , marketing: Okay . project manager: u , they're everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them . user interface: I think it's time for us to get back to marketing: 'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think <doc-sep>project manager: S how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: We have some we have some ideas and some ideas for what people want . user interface: we yes s I've lo marketing: user interface: I've done the role that I was asked to do anyway . then we can come to a conclusion on what we want the remote to do , and how it's going to do it hopefully . I'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , and coming up with the final presentation . So you're gonna come up with the ideas Ryan , and you're gonna pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: we decided our remote , we want it to be a universal remote that everyone would want . I'll hand it off to you and Does anyone do you wanna go first ? marketing: Sure . Well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that I was sent . You want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: No I want something else on mine . marketing: So is there no way I can give you the slideshow and project manager: I think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . so first of all , the method that I used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by doing research on some interviews that were conducted . And eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . So I think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , I think that's definitely important . And if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: Just jus user interface: Is is it j just just marketing: Zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . and fifty percent of the users say that they're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so I think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . They said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . The groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it's worth investing in this . We definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that don't seem to be serving much purpose . user interface: Having just listened to what Corinne just said , I'll draw on some of the things as well . marketing: user interface: And t s simplest approach that I came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . that's an obvious thing to say , but it's not attached to the device that you want to control . But I think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , because you'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . I'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they're a nightmare to use . So I think it'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for T_V_s . or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that's unique in design . And the other one is engineer-centred where that's more specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it's trying to control which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . Fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent is hidden away if ten percent is what's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they're hidden away . and finally , sort I've sort of covered that , our product I think should be user interface orientated . Like I said to concentrate on T_V_ remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . project manager: What was your last conclusion on that one ? Focus on the i user interface: On something on the image of it . Gonna talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . So unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so I'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . The way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it's working basically . Now this , what we're talking about here , or what I think should be discussed are these two components mostly . Right ? These two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . Who knows ? Of course it's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . But that's like I s I suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: So we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: Expensive it's gonna be get . project manager: But people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . user interface: I think speech recognition was one of those things where they have to be really good for them to work . Well user interface: And you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects I suppose as well . project manager: I myself I find , when you , h when there's something like spee speech recognition . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . marketing: project manager: So maybe if you're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: And wou I don't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . marketing: Another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they'd do it , but probably a lot of them that's actually their parents money . Like I don't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: I think As well it'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . user interface: But practically I don't think it's project manager: It's a , it's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: Yeah . the remote's only gonna be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that not only is a universal remote more complicated , it's more cost , more costly . but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . And we could probably get away with black too but So those are the three the three new requirements that that I was told we need to use . from all all three of your presentations , I think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . project manager: But it's probably , I would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . But if you don't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . project manager: That'd be , that'd be good if we were going with our our ball . Or you know However , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: You s you still W yeah . industrial designer: While you're watching , marketing: Rolls away industrial designer: it's gonna roll off . I guess our , I guess our main main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . Did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: Not really . user interface: I'll yeah I'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . user interface: I th I I do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . On maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . project manager: Shall we maybe shoot for a a specific target group ? That way we could l if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it's a certain look to the remote . Or girls or older people ? Would that you think that would help us find a specific form ? That we would would wanna pick out ? user interface: D I don't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . So we know that the remote's gonna have to be we'll just say we've got a colour scheme for it . project manager: you know yellow it's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . project manager: And our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: Bottom perhaps project manager: you know . project manager: Maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . Hope everyone memorised that user interface: You it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they've been going . user interface: They've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . user interface: marketing: project manager: But they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones they've kind of taken a turn to where they're really small . project manager: But then again you don't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . user interface: project manager: So we've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we're what we're stuck with . If you , if we want the remote to do other things like or I guess the T_V_ to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into T_V_s , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . project manager: 'Kay so industrial designer: It's project manager: industrial designer: Talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . industrial designer: You can even if we're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . industrial designer: Also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wanna make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . And maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . Maybe the buttons could like decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . So you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: well I was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: Yeah . user interface: But the older so project manager: Yeah is everyone who in here's right-handed , left-handed ? You guys all right-handed ? marketing: Right . project manager: I'm left-handed but I , so I can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: Maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . user interface: I'm just just thinking maybe if it was circular with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . Like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , volume , and on-off . So for the next So for the next before the next meeting w sh shall we work on you're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we've got going on . project manager: Manuel you're going to work on the components for for what we're gonna use . project manager: Let's go with our our rounded kind of fit in your hand let's explore the the possibility of having the two-piece . So one for the the quick zapping and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . project manager: And Ryan you work on how how well they'll work with the us with the user . Or I guess we'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we'll probably have another meeting

The User Interface team emphasized the importance of adjusting the design of the remote control to meet the needs of users, with a focus on reducing buttons and improving usability. They suggested that the proposed general remote controller by the marketing team would increase the budget and complexity, and recommended stopping the research and instead focusing on the appearance design. The Industrial Designer highlighted the primary function of the remote control as sending messages to another system and emphasized the need for an energy source, integrated circuit, and infrared lamp control. They proposed making the battery and infrared lamp more affordable and sustainable, and also suggested incorporating a speech recognition interface based on market research. The market research revealed that users' biggest frustration was losing the remote control in their house. To address this issue, the Industrial Designer proposed adding a button on the TV that, when pressed, would make the remote control beep to help locate it. This solution was considered to be within budget. Additionally, the Industrial Designer drew inspiration from the design of Xbox and emphasized the importance of considering the physical differences among users worldwide when determining the size of the remote control.

What ideas were suggested by User Interface and Industrial Designer when discussing market research and related adjustments? Why did Industrial Designer consider incorporating an alarm and physically different designs when discussing market research and adjustments due to new project requirements?

So we have forty minutes to discuss and finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so Okay , let's talk about maybe first for the prototype . project manager: So I handle to user interface: I've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we've both done , so if I'm missing anything , Christine can just correct me . user interface: It's not the biggest PowerPoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: So in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: Three . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , can I have the mouse ? project manager: Yes . Alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the T_V_ on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we've incorporated the L_C_D_ screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it's too expensive , well then you just take it off . marketing: user interface: So if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow L_C_D_ display . The yellow button you have is the on off button , so it's really big , hard to miss . And then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the T_V_ , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . industrial designer: Yeah the d user interface: Additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and I suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . That depends on the s design of the circuit board inside and what room is left user interface: Yeah . project manager: I think the microphone is on on the top , on the middle , the under the flip . project manager: So that will be the safe , so p any the chip it's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: No , it depends on the design of the circuit board . user interface: But it shouldn't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: it's it's Yeah , but my opinion I think it's better under the flip because whenever you want to the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . But if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then technical I don't think it's feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: But if you've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and I'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , I can just use my voice . industrial designer: Maybe I've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and I'm holding my cup of Coca-Cola in the other hand . user interface: it doesn't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . user interface: marketing: No , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would haven't been not be damaged or anything , and it'd be accessible all the time to voice . S I'm fine , I'm satisfi user interface: And maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: I'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes aren't the most economical , but industrial designer: We're glad you're satisfied . project manager: Of course it's it's it's looks more heo heavy , but I think when it's completely maybe it's a less weight . But And part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they don't like something that's too light , because they don't feel like they have enough control over it . user interface: So maybe this is excessively heavy , but I think it needs to have some weight , project manager: Yep . marketing: project manager: So any comments or marketing: Well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we've we've talked about on the previous meetings . marketing: Now it goes into this next phase as the financial marketing project manager: Yes , that So I'll come back to the So evaluation criteria , I think that will be good , so then let's come to the finance , I have some calculations which I made as for the budget . it's optional , somewhat optional and Ed wants the chip on print , that's what we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: So then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . So it's actually , our budget was twelve point five Euro , but it's coming to nine point nine five Euro , so we are under below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . marketing: Well we haven't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: Oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . It's gonna cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we're gonna have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: So maybe it's for some money we can utilise for our marketing , for the sales , okay , and marketing: Well , it just depends on if we're gonna add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a L_C_ display . L_C_ display is gonna be very expensive , user interface: No we do , but it's not filled in . marketing: We don't have the price up there , user interface: Oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: Yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three Euro per remote , now we're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what the company had initially requested . industrial designer: So that means we can put the the L_C_D_ in , yeah . But as far as production I'm putting up a question because we're talking about profit also , and in mine you'll see the problem with our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: this is just production cost , it is not advertising cost , it's not transportation cost project manager: Yes , so still we have twelve point five Euro . marketing: And that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the the cost of the unit for the company . marketing: So to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million Pound profit , we're gonna have to go a long ways . This we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . industrial designer: Although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be the the quantity won't m won't marketing: Slightly . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would be fixed at the you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one Euro . industrial designer: That's really that's the cost of the material and lab wow , that's really outstanding . But anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what I will do is I will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that I will look after . project manager: You're in four ? marketing: Yep The four gives me it's gotta be TrendWatch . marketing: It shouldn't be user interface: That's no , I think it's the same one . marketing: Although since we need to have some type of idea on a market we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . Okay ? Our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . Which means that if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: marketing: So , if we put an inflated price of fifty Euro at a production cost that cannot exceed twenty-five Euro , okay , we're already in that that price , okay , project manager: Yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we're gonna break this down between our our retailers . At two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five Euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit Eu Euro profit . marketing: Okay ? So , obviously we w w I just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we've gone through these . Now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . Or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . marketing: Can it sell it for fifty Euros ? industrial designer: Could could I go to findings ? project manager: Yep . industrial designer: I would like to explore the possibility of using alternative delivery and sales channel which would be to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: Yes . industrial designer: That way you have no storage , you have no you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: user interface: That actually makes more sense if we're gonna make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: . user interface: whereas if you're in a store , you can't unless you're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: And you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you're missing really is the weight . It's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they can't touch before buying . You can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: -huh . marketing: you can change it There's a lot of online that's that is doing this now . marketing: And when you're rotating , you'll look behind and look this way it's possible to do with this , maybe there's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility lower the price of the unit . project manager: I don't think that's not possible , it's okay then , l let's wait for the production , okay , then you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and how it look like the real . user interface: What turnaround time do we have ? project manager: T user interface: 'Cause production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . industrial designer: In We probably should do some market tests once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . marketing: that'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: So you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . Think minimum two weeks if we're gonna develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , because we we are not going to do it in our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: No no . industrial designer: project manager: So we'll do it in the other place , and I don't think it's take more than four weeks time . Or Okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then it's approve from the technical team and your team , okay , from the management , then we can launch in the market . Hm ? industrial designer: Any outstanding ? project manager: S Any any other questions or comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: No , I'm user interface: What ab industrial designer: go ahead . project manager: Okay , so then industrial designer: Did you have something ? user interface: Well I was just wondering about if we're gonna do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . industrial designer: project manager: So no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . Okay ? So we will introduce m this model and let's introduce in the market and let's take the feedback from the customers , then we can go for the industrial designer: Second generation . industrial designer: user interface: The problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we haven't thought of . Well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there's no end , there's no limit . user interface: No , but there's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we don't really have anything to back it up . project manager: Yeah , so that's the reason you are here for the design , okay , I hope you made a good design . We have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that doesn't mean that that's what's gonna sell . project manager: Yeah , but see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like you can eat you can all eat more chi I can eat more chilli , okay , so i it's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . I'm just trying to point out that I think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: Yes . industrial designer: Ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for T_V_ remote control sales ? marketing: . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: So I think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because I don't know when the World Cup is , but I'm sure there's gonna be one . industrial designer: but , so , I'm just ig pointing out a a strategy to do some additional user testing project manager: Research . industrial designer: or perhaps to also user interface: That's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: There might be some motion pictures that are coming out that are coming out on D_V_D_ that they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with with Sony Pictures for example . user interface: It's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it's really really important . user interface: A lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . user interface: Really ? industrial designer: Yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: That I didn't know . industrial designer: and people the market hadn't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it wasn't user interface: industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they hadn't so , you're right , timing is very important , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: You look very relaxed , considering h you know , the the weight on your shoulders , yeah . user interface: project manager: Okay , so then let's come to the closing and are the costs within the budget marketing: Celebration . Okay for but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and great design and let's leave it to the Ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let's celebrate . user interface: Thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: And see you in the evening for drinks

The User Interface team presented the function, customizability, and appearance of the remote control, including the color, material, and shape. The group then discussed the location of the microphone and the weight and shape of the buttons. The Project Manager suggested placing the microphone under the flip, while the User Interface team argued for it to be on the side. Additionally, the User Interface team proposed making the buttons in the shape of an egg and using plasticine as the material. The Industrial Designer proposed specifying the location of the microphone, but there was disagreement between the Project Manager and the User Interface team. The Project Manager believed the microphone should be under the flip for easy voice recognition control, while the User Interface team insisted on placing it on the side for voice activation even when the remote control is out of reach.

Summarize the group's discussion and determination on the detailed design and evaluation criteria of the product.

project manager: and everybody's name and what your function is ? marketing: Yeah , that's a good plan . my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: Yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , I think , we already I guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as I can see . project manager: we get ins each of us will get instructions and we'll take it from there . That is it's gonna be individual work and then at the meeting we'll discuss what we have come up with . Does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? So that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . marketing: See if I r See if I remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: And remember you have to press so it works . project manager: And you're Francine , right ? Would you like s like just to see how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: Yes , I'm Francina . project manager: In marketing: Am I supposed to wipe off that or project manager: No , no . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: Here's the project finance which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . project manager: So these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . Now , the discussion I guess is does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: Oops . project manager: I exp I s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . project manager: And now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you didn't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? Would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: Yeah , I industrial designer: Yeah . Like the remote control which we use for T_V_ , it shou it should be used f for some other purpose also , like controlling the temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: So it should be a multi-functional gadget that would control all your household machines basically . marketing: We certainly can try to I agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: It should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . All the almost all the remotes project manager: Like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . project manager: so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . marketing: I think another thing that would help is if it beeps when you clap , project manager: Yes . project manager: That is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . project manager: And and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the T_V_ off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: industrial designer: project manager: Well or yeah or if it's really , if it's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: So some industrial designer: Yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: Yeah . user interface: Or a b marketing: so , so it's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: So if lost If lost signal with b throw signal , you know . industrial designer: Yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: I'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: Beep or it's a light , maybe it's a light . marketing: And do you think a good c c clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: Okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it's really hidden , in in other words if it's like in a dark spot , meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it's behind a plant , at that moment it's it's like , it's like , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: project manager: In in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: Okay so user interface: Yes . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and I I think voice or clapping it's not specific enough . I know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: project manager: but I think they only work to certain degree and marketing: But it could be someplace really obvious and you still wouldn't be able to find it . project manager: What with industrial designer: Yeah , of course , that didn't user interface: Then , in that case marketing: Well , because you're s because you're silly . marketing: it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Okay we have marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but I think we have some good good points to start with here . I think you all did you get notices on your computer for this ? Okay so well , you got the notice industrial designer: Me yeah . The working design , I guess that's the function I_D_ who is this ? The industrial designer That's you . project manager: industrial designer: working design , yeah , it's it's mainly technical-functional design . project manager: Then And then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: Yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . project manager: And the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . user interface: project manager: And , you know , specifi you you will get specific instructions for that . project manager: I think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions , I guess , you can user interface: Okay <doc-sep>So basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific remote control , but I have new new i inputs for about that topics . And basically we decided to to go to individual actions for each of you so Industrial Designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . project manager: The U_I_ guy also work on that , yeah , and for the mar our Marketing Expert should deliver some specs . So , I just put d quickly Remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . marketing: I was thinking of the user interface: Especially if we're selling into the U_S_ market becasue there's a lot of Spanish speakers there . M_A_ ? M_A_ ? marketing: A*_N_ yeah D_O . marketing: It doesn't it doesn't sound cool for me , project manager: What does it mean ? Oh . marketing: but maybe for a Spanish for I for user interface: What does it mean in Spanish ? marketing: Control . 'Cause it also like in English it sounds like you know the man's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: But , yeah . project manager: So , let's go for Mando ? Yeah ? No objection ? industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . So user interface: And we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in in one o in one font and then the O_ as like project manager: Okay , I think this is user interface: Although you don't wanna cut cut women out of the potential buyers though , project manager: Okay . user interface: do you ? So industrial designer: Yeah they are the most T_V_ watcher . marketing: But yeah project manager: I I think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it project manager: Something that should be addressed later We should we should go to other for the other topics . We need to know who we're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: Yeah okay , so let's stick f to Man Mando for the name user interface: . So , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: So maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: Okay so yeah I will I will give a brief outline about what I what I prepared for this meeting . I prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . And also I di I did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . So and they they admit that the the they should s they would spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it's interesting point . Also the people are worried about about the R*_S_I_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . They are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so I think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . marketing: And also I found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . marketing: So in my opinion the Mando this Mando shouldn't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they shouldn't they shouldn't have the same importance in the in the in the remote cont in the remote control . So it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: Well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . So unless you're kind of targeting single people you know you're gonna maybe marketing: Yeah . marketing: I dunno I th Anyway I think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . marketing: Sorry ? industrial designer: A universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: Still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah ? That's right , whether it's left hand or right hand , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: but but don't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: Sorry ? industrial designer: The first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: Well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: - marketing: Yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . project manager: industrial designer: So it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: Little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: And it should fit the hand . marketing: No no I was thinking of so like something project manager: Something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: - - user interface: You could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: On the sides . project manager: And then finally marketing: And finally , the incorporation of a L_C_D_ or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but I don't know if the budget would be large enough . First I'm just wondering about the L_C_D_ stuff because because marketing: But most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: Yeah , so maybe it's a good time for me to to bring you to some new new informations . We had the new requirements from the so from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to they would like to be restricted to T_V_ . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to T_V_ only because of time limitations . So we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . So user interface: I was still I was still working on this twenty five Euro price point because I think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low price if if we're maybe I can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: Yeah yeah . project manager: Okay so let's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about L_C_D_ and speech reco user interface: Yeah . I think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you're watching T_V_ you're gonna have a lot of this background noise from the T_V_ which might interfere with the project manager: Sorry , what is your ? user interface: participant three . You might have some background noise from the T_V_ which will make the speech recognition much harder , so . user interface: Oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the T_V_ the T_V_ sound turns off . Means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: Okay , so , could I describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: Sorry ? user interface: could I use the mouse , or project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: Okay so while researching this this topic I first of all just thought of a couple of things that I would like to see in a remote , and just looked to see if they're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated remote controls on Epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer written basically review site . So there's a pretty wide range of remote controls these days and and this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it's not really it's by no means you know on it's own in being so expensive . project manager: Looks like a P_D_A_ ? user interface: So yeah it doe it's well basically all the functions are controlled through through the L_C_D_ screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out on the market , I know we're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have have these L_C_D_ screens which kind of helps when you're using multiple devices I suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . But the thing that I find most interesting about this remote control , and it's kind of difficult to to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like a mouse scroll wheel , which I think is it's a really kind of important design aspect is it's 'Cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . user interface: the I think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'Cause I know when I when I use the remote to change the channel I very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that's just it's annoying . Now the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an L_C_D_ screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet capability . user interface: One possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff can't be done for twenty five Eu Euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the L_C_D_ screen so that instead of actually saying I want to I want to go to channel thirty seven because I know this programme's on , you know , often you don't know what ch what channel it's on , or you don't know what's on . If you have a list of of programs on your L_C_D_ screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . So if you think about it's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you don't use you don't remember people's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: So this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but we we really need t to discuss the price . So , there are there are cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it's it's it's very simple , there's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . So this is something else we might wanna consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating universal remote control on on Epinions . It it's really maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible because really I think people want to be able to find the button they're looking for without even looking at the remote control . And was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used tasks , but I think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . So if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . user interface: Yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler task in that we're only doing a television remote control . I think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open door that that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . user interface: I I would if I had my perfect remote control , I'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they're just in the way . Maybe you know I although I do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . user interface: but I think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . marketing: H I think I think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control shouldn't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers they will think it's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: It does sampling out of the . If you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: If y project manager: Okay , can you continue , please Mi ? user interface: So , but marketing: user interface: yep . okay , so , I think one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . So if we can have a higher priced remote control I think that would really be worth something that would be worth implementing . there's the L_C_D_ screen , which maybe maybe is too expensive , but I think also at the scroll wheel , I haven't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an L_C_D_ screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . I think even that , project manager: user interface: that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an L_C_D_ screen , to implement , project manager: And the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but I think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wanna make it something that's extensible to do other tasks . Say you have like a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say , change the lighting in the room . You know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it doesn't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . Then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , I dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and , I think that's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: So most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition , that means on my own I project manager: This one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . industrial designer: Okay so the working design is user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . So he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . So the old kind of users who don't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as our Marketing Expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: Okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . project manager: industrial designer: Means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . So if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five Euros money which we are thinking . So anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which cannot be done now actually . And for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: Do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it's enough . industrial designer: Yeah we we can target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: Well wh I imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance a an ambience microphones user interface: . No it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: So it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: Well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: That's right . user interface: because , I'm not sure exactly where we're gonna sell this , but I presume it's not gonna just be English speaking countries . user interface: So then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: - it's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so D_T_W_ could be kind of which is the easiest . So you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . We are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . And then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . So now where the A_S_R_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . So there is A_S_R_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . And then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . So this was the my personal preference was that we can have A_S_R_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: You know I guess you could actually train the remote control as you're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the press the button industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: like s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: Yeah but as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: So your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: Because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though I don't have much idea , but as he the Marketing Expert presentation was marketing: I'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five Euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: Actually I'm not so sure industrial designer: So if we go with just the user interface: because I'm the marketing: I'm sure . user interface: you know if I was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because I can't hear it very well , I don't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when I'm when I'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . You know if there's some there's some dialogue all of a sudden that I can't hear , I'm trying to actually find out what's being said , project manager: Yeah . project manager: Okay so marketing: Yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it's about user interface: Well it depends if it's a remote control th marketing: it's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: Maybe if the remote control is something that y you don't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: If you can leave it sitting on the table and you don't actually have to find it , then that could be . project manager: so if I if I kind of summarise everything we've de we we said . We need we need to have remote control which is fanc fancy , which is which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . We should bring new technologies for young peoples , and as we have also requirements to to use to to push thr toward the internet . And also , a very interesting things I I I've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . So so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it's not possible to go s to go to L_C_D_ and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . Because in fact as we are targeting T_V_ in fact we can use T_V_ screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . If we we don't unless we have some input some video input to the T_V_ or we have control over the T_V_ then we can't actually display that . Like if we if we produce the T_V_s then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the T_V_ to superimpose those those menus . project manager: don't we have contacts with people on T_V_ or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: Well this is this is another que we still haven't really defined the remote . Are we still you say we're focusing on T_V_ , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: Yeah . 'Cause even if we have contacts we can't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies' T_V_s . What's what cou what could be the cost of well , could we fit the the targets in terms of cost if we go s to L_C_D_ on the remote control ? user interface: For twenty five Euro ? I think it's impossible . user interface: I think it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that that twenty five Euro because for twenty five Euro I think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . So I would I would like to know if there's any chance of of increasing the marketing: user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: So you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: What would be user interface: Yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , I think this is marketing: Wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an L_C_D_ in a remote control ? user interface: Well th marketing: What what kind of information ? user interface: 'Cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: Yeah but mo most of the T_V_s nowadays show the show the project manager: They have tele teletext . marketing: the n project manager: Th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can that you can get thr through the channel . project manager: They have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to to move to teletext to to the use of internet . marketing: So what would what would appear in the in the L_C_D_ ? user interface: So you could have the name of the programme , you could have the start time you know where it's up to . project manager: The ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have o user interface: You could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: Okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: Well I don't know if this information is available from teletext , also . project manager: Well because for the same reason that we cannot informations on the T_V_ . project manager: So so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the T_V_ , or or it should be a special T_V_ connected to marketing: But Yeah . user interface: Well I I think if we're gonna I think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y I don't think you could even get teletext information from the T_V_ onto the remote control , especially if we don't control the T_V_ . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? Is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? So the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of L_C_D_ thing could be as high as the T_V_ itself . project manager: Yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: If it's a really small T_V_ maybe . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . So the com the the the committment is the following , we don't go for speech recognition technology . project manager: It is up to you to go through this this way and to to report report me back next meeting . So marketing: I think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the L_C_D_ . industrial designer: It's it's cheaper as compared to the L_C_D_ . Maybe it's cheaper , but we have no marketing: Because with the L_C_D_ you need more requirements . user interface: marketing: But user interface: Well the thing is I think I think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you don't need anything . user interface: I think the type of people that are gonna want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gonna have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: But then we should move to another target b because at twenty five Dollars , industrial designer: Means th yeah twenty five Euros is yeah , that's right . marketing: it's user interface: Can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'Cause otherwise we need project manager: Okay this is this is an open question for you . But I'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: To move to another target ? project manager: no no no , I'm no I'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . I that work user interface: It's kind of hard to guarantee that you're gonna project manager: It's real yeah . project manager: you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching <doc-sep>project manager: Will you guys first with your prototype before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: Yeah , there's good news ? project manager: industrial designer: Oh . user interface: one's based on the banana , one's based on the tomato project manager: Tomato ? What tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: I don't recall a tomato . Okay , so this is the non to non no buttons one , or as few buttons as possible , project manager: If you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there's some there , project manager: Okay . project manager: Okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: Yeah . can I have project manager: Well I like the feel of it , I like the feel of it . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: That's that's already got its stand that one . user interface: It does also lie flat , but that's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: Okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: yeah , that marketing: user interface: Well , we did think of that . user interface: Yeah , if it's standing up it's it's on there , but also we're gonna have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . These are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . We n were weren't sure about putting them there , because i it's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: Where you're , yeah , were you're holding it kind of user interface: Yeah . Well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: that's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . user interface: industrial designer: A a more friendly type of project manager: Okay , so so Barney the banana . It's to induce more television watching I suppose or project manager: Ah excellent , just what we need . project manager: 'Kay and user interface: So are there any improvements or issues or industrial designer: It won't stand . industrial designer: project manager: unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , it's gonna cost us fourteen point six Euros . project manager: So we have to industrial designer: What's on the on the left ? project manager: rea Sorry , I've accidentally highlighted somehow . So basically , in order to save our two Euros I was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . project manager: Yeah , it's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it wouldn't have to be curved sort of in and out . industrial designer: W why is the double curved two of them ? project manager: Oh , good point . Yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: That's sort of curve in and out . project manager: No , I think it means double curved as in user interface: Like an S_ shape . project manager: like a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . project manager: I don't think that counts as a curve , I think that's just a shape . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: Yeah , and why why I've got it two , I don't know , I can't seem to select any more however . project manager: It's meant to be one , yeah , I don't know why I put two in there , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: but Hold on till I find it , I think this shift button might be stuck again . project manager: okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: Should industrial designer: project manager: Oh that's fine . project manager: industrial designer: Maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . industrial designer: Does that work ? project manager: Yeah , I know , that just extends it as well . project manager: No , it's 'cause the the shift button's stuck , or something . industrial designer: Is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: Should we ask Meli project manager: marketing: Should we ask our technical expert Melissa ? project manager: No that's fine . Right , so that's finances and I dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? user interface: Well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: Well I suppose that's our that's that's our design that we've got . Yeah , if we're happy with the design there's no point in spending money , if we don't have to . user interface: But if there is anything you think we've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . Maybe obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: Yeah yeah . project manager: room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: W I think we were very creative . marketing: Yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . We discussed all the new ideas , but of course we couldn't reach any proper goals , we couldn't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . industrial designer: so let's talk about our bonuses and the raises we're getting for this , right . project manager: That's it , I think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . industrial designer: marketing: So project manager: Does it go back in , does it ? Reusable . industrial designer: Oh ok project manager: It didn't bother to tell me that on this marketing: S industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . user interface: It's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we've got . So of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . marketing: We will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . Then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? Means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . As we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: Sorry . marketing: So but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , yeah like keeping keeping in mind all the safety issues . project manager: The board working again , is it ? industrial designer: Do we have the the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: . user interface: marketing: So these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . I I will first I would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: I think Yeah , it did . marketing: S user interface: It had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: When the user requirement is essentially just to operate the T_V_ , user interface: Does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Seven is good , yeah , isn't it ? I can't True or false ? No sorry tr one is true . marketing: But I think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: No it's it's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: No that's false . marketing: d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: I think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i Interface Expert . marketing: But you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: yeah , I think i it might even exceed it . marketing: And what about you , Brian ? project manager: Oh , I'll go for a one . for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: Yeah th marketing: and user interface: yellow . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: But if a person doesn't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . project manager: Come on that was the tha marketing: No , don't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . user interface: Is that no is that not trends ? marketing: no , personally as a Marketing Expert I don't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . marketing: Some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . But in electronics , I think , it's not q always quite so you don't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: I think , you know , if you're going to buy a T_V_ maybe a company'll have That you're going to choose from , a company'll have two or three choices , but they're different designs . project manager: user interface: No , obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: I'm just trying to Okay . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . Three or four ? project manager: marketing: no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: Six . user interface: What are we doing ? industrial designer: What are we doing ? marketing: No sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: Adding them up ? industrial designer: We're gonna average them ? marketing: Yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: Can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: Sorry ? industrial designer: How it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: Yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the as a fruit shape or something . user interface: Well going on the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , I would give it , well , because it's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so I would actually give it a three . As far as the technology it its' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it's missing the screen , as we said , but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , but it doesn't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . project manager: Yeah , I am sort of pret Just the fruit does me in , it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but I'm just not swallowing the fruit , so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: also I would have liked to have seen the L_C_D_ screen in it . personally I wi I think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . And the second thing , now people don't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . industrial designer: Well , I think it's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . Pretty much kept to the company strategy , so I would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: . marketing: Yeah , and me also , like , this product me me me this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe <doc-sep>I think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say the requirements that we've set out . Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on a small joystick , L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . So we'll just crack on , like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible . industrial designer: I'll just project manager: This meeting is the conceptual design phase and is Sorry about this . And is to cover things like what the parts might be made of , can we outsource these from elsewhere , will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: I have a presentation I just saved it in the the folder . joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it , could be plastic w or rubber even as well . can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else a solar powered one . project manager: the kinetic one , we've 'cause that's the ones where like you the movement causes it . project manager: the bat the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power , would be my one query . project manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you'd say ? industrial designer: . one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . the materials are tha there as you can see , but you can't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: Titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: which would be Yeah , marketing: Is it not also it's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . , I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: . project manager: could you maybe draw something ? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect , it's just 'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two . Well for a curved , well I was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . industrial designer: which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but you can't have it in titanium , which is a nice material . industrial designer: and for the buttons , it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s . but it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive . if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve control and it's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . But you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: Yeah . So , depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display . project manager: do you have any idea so far , like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_ , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? Or ? marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip . Yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah i project manager: Okay , should I go on , or go back ? industrial designer: marketing: if we only have twelve Pounds fifty , twelve Euros , not even twelve Pounds . Twelve Euros , what's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine Pounds ? project manager: Well we'd also be relying on the the bulk buying in producement and such . If you go to the one before that so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_ . the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then it'll send it to the tr the amplifier . industrial designer: And then the next slide just shows how the copper wires interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , to get sent to the chip . So in the information that you've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks ? industrial designer: I think we can do it if we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . project manager: I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm I don't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber for reasons I'll go into in more detail . Now I'm gonna have to work between the the slides and the and the white board project manager: Yeah . I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving various ideas from from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today . so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes , ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . and try and f and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on , so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . and what we've basically decided on was the the the joy the joystick , two function buttons and the L_C_D_ , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . I don't actually think we need the the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels , so if there's something f and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: Ah , okay . user interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then your V_C_ and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player . You must have two two modes , basic mode , where the joystick's left right left right for channels , up down for volume , and the and the menu mode for further functions . now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design , it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . project manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: basi basically what I basically what the what be having , I would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you're handing it from a lef left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the the L_C_ the L_C_D_ and the The joystick would be in the right place . And also this is a rather nicer de design gimmick that the the you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: Okay . project manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say , I guess . The Assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , hol holding the remote , the the joystick unit should rest over the the joint of the f of the four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb . and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for left or right handed users . You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . You just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . , and that marketing: Is this the joystick ? user interface: Th this part here is the joystick . And you then have , at the at the bottom , the L_C_D_ , and this would need to be articulated as well . And again , this part could be rotated , so it can So so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . So the t the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . And you could download programs for it from for T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers . though you i it would be necessary to have have a m have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet . We compared whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . And then we we research fashion trends in Europe , what's what's the new black , project manager: Okay . we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that's a bonus , but they don't care so much , you know . People want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . And easy to use , it it just so happens that from the second point to the third point is twice as important the second point is twice as important as the third point . People want it I is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . The fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . project manager: marketing: But I I see I come on to that in the next in the next slide . If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it's spongy , then can I skip the rest ? industrial designer: Oh yeah , I forgot to mention that . marketing: So so my personal opinion ? we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool , that's that's different , you know , that's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it's the up to the interface guy . So if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . It could be something like , I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do . I think maybe they were I don't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: So if we want something strong and sturdy , I say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it doesn't matter , it's spongy material , it's not gonna break , you know . I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable . So how do things fit it ? And if we are gonna use spongy , we can say it's long lasting , you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . So just to summarise , people want stuff that's cool , that's that looks like it's cool , and if it is cool then that's a bonus doesn't have to be people like fruit and veg . If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . So , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . project manager: Well , I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway . You always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway . project manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so I don't exactly what cost would be incurred . I can see your point about the number keypad , but I've I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: project manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of boxes as well having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: Yeah , actually if you've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it's you know if you're trying to remember what , you know , what number's the discovery channel or whatever . user interface: But if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components , say something like lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most small hand held devices now . Though I'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: Yeah , I I would say definitely , the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . So project manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? I can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in the structure , do you think ? user interface: . industrial designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . marketing: user interface: if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . If you then have a sort of outer skin of flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and I think would look rather co mi rather cool . my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but . industrial designer: project manager: However , one interesting point is , I don't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: It's an certainly a different colour from your average user interface: Make it harder to lose , as well . project manager: Was there anything in your research marketing: The noise for when you lose the banana , f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: I th if it I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , I I don't know . user interface: Well basi basically the for f for e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that the T_V_ responds to . user interface: So usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the remote , and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your ma find your manufacturer marketing: marketing: That's because televisions , they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . But if we had some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_ user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: booklet . This person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: Yeah . project manager: Doesn't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that's right , yeah . marketing: and it's user interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to to actually purchasing it , so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about . user interface: If you if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . project manager: Okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage . I think we've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of rubber and such , so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . So for example , I'll just start at the top , you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it'll be hard not to , obviously . The user interface design , They're kind of it looks they're the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: . project manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , I would say . but then again , the the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . So and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . marketing: Yeah , you see I don't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . project manager: I I think we'd be yeah , no , it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . project manager: so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar . project manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? marketing: Okay , sure . At this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . project manager: the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that's stylish , so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: And it's stylish . project manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then , they've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . project manager: Although of course at twenty five Euros , I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the device . U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . project manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming industrial designer: Oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_ , or are we gonna project manager: It's just for T_V_ , but for marketing: Different . project manager: programming it to use your T_V_ , you might hook it up to the P_C_ . project manager: I'm not sure , but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive . user interface: Yeah , marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something . marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . The other thing it it would need to ha it would need to have some sort of on board memory anyway . user interface: f for one for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be although you know , it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be o ought to be customisable and marketing: Different languages , different skins and stuff like that . How how how you want say the the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels . I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? So . marketing: It would make sense if you could project manager: and we'd better be careful about the time as well . project manager: So user interface: Where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: they're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: Yeah . user interface: I having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wanna keep the company brand as well , user interface: project manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on . Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . I was like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the on the top function button <doc-sep>industrial designer: Who is gonna do a PowerPoint presentation ? user interface: Think we all industrial designer: You will as well ? user interface: Huh . I just wanna 'cause basically I can't re I've really crap at remembering everyone's name so I just wanna rather than going Miss Marketing and Miss this and Miss that wanted to know your names again . industrial designer: Okay I'm project manager: just gonna leave this up here 'cause I'll you know . And you're s r R_E_I_S_S_ marketing: I am Reissa . this is gonna go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: 'cause I know what I'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: I am your Project Manager , and , yeah , I'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and I'm gonna be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is I'm gonna have some presentations from all three of you , what you've been working on for the last wee while , when you haven't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . We'll we'll talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . and then we'll , yeah , we'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: How long is the meeting ? project manager: This meeting it's not very long . So I want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . project manager: if you haven't done a PowerPoint thingy , it doesn't matter , it it just it just says that you it's that's just one particular medium . If you haven't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . project manager: are you b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: I yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just doing some Internet shopping there ? user interface: Think she's finishing up her presentation . Alright , let's have well , we all know that it's it's a remote control that we're gonna be dealing with . project manager: I think the first thing we should look at is probably the what it is that it is actually supposed to be . project manager: You don't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: Are we getting i Really ? project manager: there you go . marketing: industrial designer: So the working design , I've got a very quick presentation on this , so I've oh no , you can't see a thing . So the idea is that we've got the energy source , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . So I think maybe two batteries , I dunno what they're called six , or something like that . industrial designer: and then then on the remote control itself will have the sender for the signal , which could be an infra-red signal , which will be sent by an electronic chip . industrial designer: And the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . industrial designer: Sorry the presentation wasn't very clear but project manager: I prefer the pe I prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: should I erase this or project manager: Do you wanna just give us a moment , I just wanna copy this down . project manager: I dunno if you guys have got any questions for Catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: Fine . Or suggestions ? marketing: Is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: Well , it's just , you don't want it plugged in really , s user interface: Yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: Yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: In indoors . marketing: No I meant like industrial designer: marketing: No 'cause like cha 'cause always changing batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: The battery's down and maybe , I dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: I dunno , swi I th I th I think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: Yeah , it's worked for the last fifty years you know . user interface: One question I have , and I don't know how much control we have over this is , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the T_V_ , and still have it be operational ? , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: It's never gonna be more than it's never gonna be , you kno unless you've got a T_V_ the size of a football pitch , it's not doesn't have to go that far , user interface: industrial designer: Well , the thing is you you don't project manager: does it ? Doesn't have to go through a wall , because you're not gonna be looking through a wall . marketing: Yeah , but if like you're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you don't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: Well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . I didn't think about that but marketing: How about Bluetooth ? Instead of using infra-red , use Bluetooth . industrial designer: Why not ? I just think that it's it's gonna cost more marketing: Isn't that a better signal ? project manager: Yeah , yeah I d it sounds like you you w don't wanna overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and I'm I'm not sure it's you're gonna use it . industrial designer: It's a fancy idea it's quite nice , but then I don't th I dunno , either you if you wanna watch the telly you're in the room , project manager: Yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gonna project manager: Basically , we're we're desi we're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: But project manager: We're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . industrial designer: Oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i We can see at a later stage , maybe , I don't marketing: 'S just an idea . industrial designer: Do you need the border ? user interface: I'm just gonna use the PowerPoint . user interface: Yeah , and basically , as far as methods , I was I was looking looking at looking at already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . Thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design . we don't want to do something that's too radical of a change , I guess , people want a remote that's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities and and does the basics , but project manager: yeah . user interface: so we can improve what's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . so things that seem like absolute must-haves would be a volume control , so up-down keys for that , channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and a mute button . one thing that I didn't include here , that I forgot that we talked about last time , was doing some sort of lock function . And so in the research that I was doing there's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which I don't know if I can access the web page from here , but I can show you . So this is a engineer centred one , so you see it's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , freeze frame . it's it's easier to g just glance at this and see what's possible to do , project manager: Yeah . user interface: And I judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting I kind of gathered that that's what we were going after , or the direction we were going in at least . So , the engineering centred ones provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person , Reissa , marketing: user interface: because we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . This w research that you've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: No that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as I know . I dunno , what do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that's really necessary ? project manager: I would say it's If it's simple to do , which I think it probably should be , user interface: Yeah . project manager: even if it's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , then yes , user interface: project manager: it's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: Right . I've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is we've gotta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . project manager: You know , the the company it's it's , from what I can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . project manager: So it's kinda gotta look it's gotta look new and s you know something fashionable . If if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: Well yeah these , I think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what I didn't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . Because we need user interface: I t I think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , . industrial designer: user interface: everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of in the market , I guess . user interface: Yeah , then you just have to do function F_ eight and it should come up . Well , for our marketing report we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants questionnaires to fill out . total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . So , they don't like like the way they operate it doesn't like match how people behave . per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably don't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: You are a child of technology , aren't you ? marketing: so yeah I was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . And it's easy to find , so I don't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they'd be interested in voice activating . marketing: so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason didn't want a voice activated one . And neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: but do the younger generation have the money ? They they don't . project manager: It's older generation , they're the ones that have gone out and marketing: Well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: People people from the age of thirty f there's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: For people up to the age of thirty five , you're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . but no they're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: Yeah , that would be my guess as well . marketing: So they don't project manager: d and tha marketing: Well project manager: and that's a that's quite a minority there , so yeah , it's not even like fifty fifty that's th thirty five per cent . user interface: What about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? if if it's twelve fifty per unit . marketing: also with with buttons , a thing called R_S_I_ , so wrist sense user interface: Repetitive strain rep repetitive strain injury marketing: Huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: Yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they don't I think people who watch T_V_ maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . project manager: So y so it's so it's so you got user interface: project manager: so that's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: Yeah user interface: . project manager: see have a look if there's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: Maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: Yeah . project manager: Let's jus marketing: Maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people aren't gonna sue us in ten years' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . project manager: I'll see if I can get see if I can get hold of them for the next meeting . I think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . Maybe th the buttons not so high up so you don't have to press so much , user interface: . okay , so we've basically we've decide we've d we've decided that it's gonna be , you know , we're going for a basic television remote . project manager: Now going back to the industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or Bluetooth . I think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . But a in there's no I don't think there's any point in making a remote control unit that's gonna last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we won't have televisions in ten years' time . user interface: Yeah , it seems like we're all on the pretty much on the same page . Have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: Oh it's probably just you , 'cause you're the project manager . Do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: Yeah , you can . I industrial designer: Well , in the project announcement , you've got the addresses , I think . marketing: I think he's participant one , aren't you ? industrial designer: So Project Manager , it's participant one at A_M_I_ . project manager: Can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: You have them i you have them , user interface: Well it's just w it's just it's just par participant one , participant two . project manager: Send me , yeah industrial designer: You want to have friends , don't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: So are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: Is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? I I kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but I might be just going a bit user interface: Well , it's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: Well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: It wouldn't be user interface: . marketing: Can't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: Well , see the thing is is we've gotta keep the company image . project manager: It's gotta say people have gotta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it's a Real Reaction i product . marketing: But if it's a R_R_ , it would be Real Reaction , project manager: There's loads of companies that called R_R_ . project manager: This is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . user interface: And this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: Yeah . project manager: Not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it's one of our products industrial designer: Well you could project manager: as opposed to a Sony product or a , you know , a Panasonic product . project manager: It's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: It could come But it could come in different colours and have the R_R_ colours just somewhere project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the R_R_ logo or colours and project manager: Yeah . project manager: If we've if we've finished at five minutes before the meeting's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . I just have to there's a few little bits and pieces I have to write down , but Take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em <doc-sep>As you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , become acquainted with each other , have a little training on tools , create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . Okay , so we'll have a functional design individual work with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . Kate , why don't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , I guess industrial designer: yeah , if I can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: And while you're doing that we'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we're all gonna have to be able to walk around . project manager: industrial designer: Do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? project manager: I do not think so , user interface: Are we all gonna draw a cat ? project manager: I think it's just to try out the whiteboard . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: You can tell it's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . And the characteristics ? industrial designer: the favourite characteristics of the cat the whiskers I think , because they're the easiest to draw . Kate ? industrial designer: user interface: And they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you're doing your homework . industrial designer: Gosh , user interface: A shark ? industrial designer: why didn't I think of fish ? That's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: I like them because they're sleek project manager: Favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n swim in groups , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: marketing: Do you have a favourite one ? project manager: I'm afraid I'm with Steph . But I'm afraid I take the coward's way out , and the cat's looking the other way . Now we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold we're to sell it for twenty five Euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros . would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . Now if they cost twelve and a half , you're selling it for twenty five , you're making twelve and a half Euros each . and we're to make a profit of fifty million , that's t can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: yeah . I was just wondering if that's the If fifty percent is normal project manager: Mark-up ? marketing: B yeah . project manager: marketing: And and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: Yes , 'cause our market is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you gotta know how many we're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . Yeah , that's project manager: To give you a pretty good idea of where you're looking . In order to make fifty million Euros , and you're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: And if we make Any of you use of remote control for a television or D_V_D_ or something ? You're both nodding , industrial designer: That that that's the sorta product we're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a T_V_s and marketing: Yeah . Well I've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but I also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: It is true that you always sit around you know , you're sitting on your sofa and you wanna change something , there's five different remotes , and one for the D_V_D_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . marketing: project manager: Are there any ideas for the remote ? What would it be for and what group would be be for ? We have to think about that one . Like I've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: Yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there's a lotta buttons that I've got no idea what they do , like . marketing: because I think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it's like an volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . We don't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have channel up channel down . project manager: but the I think that's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: . project manager: And user , that's you S Steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . I think there's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and I think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but I think we all have to like each other to get this done . as it says , we're gonna get individual instructions , but I don't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so I think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . then I don't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things

The User Interface team emphasized the importance of simplicity in the remote control, suggesting the removal of unnecessary functions like subtitles and mute, which could be controlled through the menu. However, Marketing disagreed, stating that the limited options offered by the company would restrict sales and profits. User Interface argued that electronics were different from other products and didn't always require a multitude of choices. The transition to the new remote control was a point of contention, with Marketing suggesting a gradual approach to avoid overwhelming users. User Interface countered that it would depend on how the remote control was advertised for easy navigation without numbers. The idea of a compact remote control with additional functionalities for controlling air-conditioners, heating systems, and audio players was supported by User Interface and the Industrial Designer. User Interface also proposed replacing the keypad with an LCD screen menu display, allowing for better organization of channels into subgroups. The locking function was seen as a novel idea, but User Interface questioned its necessity, while the Project Manager believed it could be easily implemented physically, such as with a cover, switch, or flip mechanism.

What were User Interface's opinions on the technical function design of the new remote control and the incorporation of a keypad, as well as the team's opinions on User Interface's idea of a compact and multi-purpose remote and the locking function in the layout presentation?

we will start with the Manager Expert wi who will talk about user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: Okay , so basically I'm gonna present some findings of a study we conducted into what users want in this remote control . Oh that's okay , it's jus marketing: so first of all we what we did is we conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . we put them in a in our usability laboratory and got them to , you know , play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they'd done that , to complete a questionnaire to tell us what they like and what they don't like in remote controls . So basically the major things we found out was that basically users don't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they'd used in the past were ugly . they they didn't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they're watching T_V_ . and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that are on remote controls . so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . And from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . and you can see they're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , while the user's watching T_V_ . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , all the other , all the other buttons , such as ch audio and picture selection configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . we also asked users which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . And basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that w the audio and picture settings were very weren't very important to them , and they used them very infrequently a as well . And fifty percent of the users said that what frustrates them is losing the remote control somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . they also said that it it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there's many buttons and it's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and cause u repetitive strain injury . We also asked some users about some specific features that they'd like to see in the on the remote control . In particular , do they want an L_C_D_ d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: basically our findings are that amongst a younger age groups the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . industrial designer: marketing: for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . Whereas the the trend was as users as users became older and older they were less likely to want these sort of features in a in a remote control . and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , I think we're focusing on the younger younger target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: So , maybe now we can talk about a user interface and about the technical function of this device . So Pet Peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: Well , okay , yeah . marketing: Yeah , it's true , but , you know , they're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it's industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: And our production cost of twelve fifty Euros per per unit is fairly high I think , user interface: industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: At least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . Okay , first what is a remote control ? Simply it's a device , as you know , for , for sending some commands by some waves to another device to to tell different commands with this device . And the main idea we don't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits making interface with keyboard and r reading keyboard and reading the keyboard commands . And then there should be an electronic circuit making electronic signals according to these commands and finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making making waves to transmit through the air and this air this wave will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to r to realise the command . Okay , about what I found about different these different blocks are , usually there are two different methods to for designing a remote control . This is this can be the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . And also as I understood , and I think it was a part of Bob , presentation , people prefer to have to have the remote control with less button . So for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on T_V_ and putting less lesser stuff on the on the remote control . And personal preferences , certainly a remote control with working with radio waves is preferred because you can pr you can take it in any direction and you don't need to tune it any way . marketing: Do you think radio waves will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: I don't think so , because we can make we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . So they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . project manager: So can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: Yeah , it should be okay . project manager: We have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: no but as I know , there is a range for for this f for for for this stuff , for designing this circuit . We can we can we can tune our transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we don't need to ask any permission . And what happen with radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? And so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: for this I'm not I I don't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting p password or something inside the wave , so the only your T_V_ can understand it project manager: Okay . A kind of identification , user interface: Yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: Yeah f I know about this , since it's my it's exactly my field , so . So industrial designer: It's kind of handshaking , when starting to when you start to communicate with the your T_V_ then then it's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . So industrial designer: So so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the T_V_ set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . A specific remote control has a specific f industrial designer: Yeah but we we don't have to think about this because I think as a function designer that we will use the already made circuits which we probably bu buy . I have only a couple of things because I had I struggled a bit with the software that I'm supposed to use in this in this company . what I have to do ? A look at what the other company Okay so presently I am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because I didn't work with these circuits so far so I have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the I_R_ circuits and so on , so I'm currently looking what is available on the web . And I wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , I would be glad if you can tell me about them . , okay findings , that's the point that I'm working on currently but so far I I was looking what what are the blue circuit , radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: So , I know that the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can you can make the T_V_ do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the T_V_ you probably won't need to to change the program and so on and so I am I am voting for s to stick to the infra-red control instead of R_W_ but we will discuss it later maybe . Components to use , I'm not exactly sure what I will use for the design of the circuit . It depends on whether we will use the L_C_D_ and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec Yeah ? marketing: Are we are we planning to take an off the shelf an O_E_M_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: No no no no no . This we this we buy I think , because it's rather cheap nowadays and it's not worth to construct ourselves . So , speech recognition well , L_C_D_ it's okay because it's common nowadays to use L_C_D_ , project manager: industrial designer: so I agree on using any kind of L_C_D_ , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . industrial designer: But the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . So what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'm project manager: Or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: Oh . But if we use the L_C_D_ even the radio frequency communication with the T_V_ set and the backlight and related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . If we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we'll see afterwards . industrial designer: It depends of you if if the M_E_ or U_I_D_ , project manager: . industrial designer: I'm sorry about the names , I don't really know , want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not Because the the the electronic device's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . And my personal preference is yes , I would like also preferably to use R_W_ circuit , but from the point of view of the design and price , I would stick to I_R_s . project manager: Why ? Because it's simpler ? industrial designer: Because because the the range where you can use it is fair . industrial designer: Otherwise I don't care what I put there because it's the chip which I buy or which we buy . marketing: What how much more expensive ? Are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: Well , three to three to five . marketing: Or ten times more expensive ? Or industrial designer: N not ten times , marketing: Okay . marketing: because all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people don't expect anything other than infra-red . project manager: Well I , oh industrial designer: Th they are used to use it when they can see the T_V_ so , I don't know . project manager: we want to to have something new and So we I think we should still thinking about it . marketing: But I think , based on my usability studies I th I feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: So I have to inform you I receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . And Because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it's not useful to have teletext . the second thing is they suggest that that we should use the remote control only for T_V_ , not for D_V_D_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it's too complex and because we have not much time for this project we should stay on T_V_ on the only specific T_V_ remote control . , It's That mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is , we put fashion of in electronics . So , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it's from Real Reaction and he s they should recognise the company . So , So now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this on this remote control . industrial designer: Okay , so the available things are L_C_D_ , the buttons and everything . project manager: Yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: You should probably speak . Do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? those nine plus one or two ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: I think it would be a b industrial designer: Because it's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: On the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it's marketing: Yeah , I user interface: Yeah . project manager: Maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: Yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: industrial designer: Like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . Maybe we could have key buttons , like discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: You mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: If you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: So it requires the use of L_C_D_ probably , to to tell you project manager: Yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: We could maybe also c incorporate Petre's idea of the slider for the volume , with the channel . industrial designer: So we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: I think so . project manager: What about the settings of the T_V_ ? Because it's button we don't use very often , but it's we need it anyway . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we don't have any access to the to the T_V_ design or we can change some design . Because one solution for this ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: On the screen , you mean ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: And then marketing: I don't Oh , I don't but I don't think we're we're the ones . this remote control we're developing is a generic control for all T_V_s , I think . I don't know if it's possible to to watch something on T_V_ user interface: W I I think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the T_V_ to to to print these things . industrial designer: Well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the L_C_D_ and this stuff is no problem in the price . project manager: So , what are we doing with the settings ? Because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . Maybe with the L_C_D_ we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: Yeah . marketing: But then you don't want to make the L_C_D_ display too complicated at the same time . marketing: there's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: Yeah . marketing: So I think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they're required . project manager: In the menus of the L_C_D_ or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . industrial designer: Should should shouldn't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? Because generally project manager: It's it's a kind of setting , I think . marketing: well I think when they say power button they mean to turn the T_V_ on and off . project manager: No , I think it's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: Yes . Well I I project manager: I I think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: But if you're watching T_V_ for two hours , you don't want your T_V_ to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: You don't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . marketing: based on our usability studies again , pe people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . marketing: you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: Okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep keep the L_C_D_ and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the T_V_ and if you close it , it will project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Because , well it's maybe question for you t marketing: I think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your T_V_ , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the T_V_ off . marketing: and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . industrial designer: Yeah but since we have the L_C_D_ , we didn't need too much button too many buttons . user interface: industrial designer: Should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: For what ? industrial designer: power button . marketing: I think it should be a bu industrial designer: If it if it's a button or user interface: Yeah . marketing: S What about things like the clock and timers ? industrial designer: Do we still have the time ? I I just wonder . Well what w what was the question ? user interface: Clock or marketing: you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: Usually it's already on T_V_ or something like that . industrial designer: Yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: no ? Because if if the T_V_ turns on itself , it well you know , if the time The timer should be there . If we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: . project manager: W In my opinion we should have only useful thing and Because apparently they want The simpler it's is better . industrial designer: Did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the T_V_ , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well And based on your user interface: marketing: Very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: But I do use the I do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: . industrial designer: Yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . industrial designer: user interface: And do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: Yes yes . project manager: I think user interface: I I thin I think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it's not very difficult to put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . project manager: So maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time <doc-sep>project manager: I just forgot their name , so you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . project manager: W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ? user interface: A_ E_ Z_ zee zee project manager: zee . industrial designer: I was a little short on time , project manager: Yeah , me too , so that's not industrial designer: but user interface: Yeah , same here . Which one was mine ? project manager: So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . So we have Oh no , what's that ? So so we have forty minutes for this for this second meeting , and we have to make sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are , user interface: Good . project manager: that we know what we're going to make th what the product is going to like look like . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s presentation ? industrial designer: What ? user interface: left . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the Should be a univ universal remote control No , that's I s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . project manager: so yeah , it still has to be f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . project manager: so So yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for user interface: Which one first ? marketing: Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . project manager: I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me , marketing: You didn't read it ? project manager: I didn't get it anyway . project manager: The last point is quite an interesting marketing: Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . marketing: And maybe our fold open system is is a good one , but I don't think it's project manager: Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top , marketing: reachable . project manager: then you're you're marketing: Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah . That's exactly what we said about maybe a home station for for it to recharge the batteries or something . I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you clap your hands it will beep or something . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c this is so difficult , a difficulty I think . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't We we haven't we mustn't look too much at the last point . they finally had a conclusion that younger people under an age of f forty five are more interested in new features . But they they don't want to have a lot of new features , because they're in their old thinking way . marketing: But y But you but you already said that the company was about forty plus clients ? project manager: People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control , marketing: I I think we can speak , we can skip speech recognition directly , user interface: Yeah . Okay , that's not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . my point is , well , I If we ma make a a remote control for only television , I think it's hard to sell it for twenty five Euros . marketing: Yeah , only only for television On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi we m must made it make it very special . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can make it a special product . marketing: to k to keep it simple when you user interface: But we also have to stand out , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: 'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . project manager: It's on the on the net net thing , user interface: There it is . project manager: So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or user interface: Yeah , I have it on the next page . so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . a way to find out what people use is maybe just to use questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control project manager: Yeah . And I found an Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same pages on text and always have to click the number . user interface: But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your industrial designer: Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . Or not ? project manager: Maybe i maybe it's too complicated , user interface: No y project manager: but not sure . user interface: Well project manager: It's a good idea , but user interface: it's It was just a thought . So I'm , I u I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six . But how can you remember what channel connects to what favourite button ? user interface: Well project manager: user interface: what I was reading on the page . user interface: Well if you said a favourite industrial designer: Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and project manager: mayb for me it's user interface: Well i project manager: If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never . project manager: So user interface: Oh are you ? project manager: And user interface: Okay now , m maybe not . project manager: If I don't do it , maybe old people user interface: No , maybe elderly people . I dunno if that's usable project manager: It's not , it's still not It's not anymore n user interface: when Not anymore for T_V_ . I dunno , miss Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ . Previous I know , but next channel ? user interface: Just the channel What is industrial designer: I don't thi marketing: Forward . industrial designer: But there's also a button to go to the channel you've been before . project manager: Yeah , user interface: I don't have I did project manager: I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . project manager: And how do you want to do it , like if you have a channel above ten ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Normally you can press one , zero or user interface: Yeah , I think f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that project manager: A ten plus or user interface: Yeah , the ten plus button . industrial designer: Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to Because you h have to be fast enough . marketing: Yeah , it's it's no it's not a user interface: So you have like a five seconds period to press those two buttons . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must type one or two . user interface: So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two stripes . user interface: So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that And not for elderly people to look , one two press and aim and industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f marketing: It's only for television now . user interface: so you have industrial designer: I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like m maybe switch channels and volume and k that kind of things , and the menu button . user interface: Yeah , okay , industrial designer: So user interface: but project manager: Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to user interface: Yeah , a mute button . user interface: Yeah well , marketing: user interface: that's that's I think that's the layers that produce . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . It looks very cheap if you make it user interface: Well , maybe you can look at mobile phones . marketing: user interface: Who ? project manager: Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it . basically what happens is you press a button , then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , like a switch . So that's er do two different things project manager: So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ? industrial designer: but Yeah . user interface: j Is industrial designer: I I'm not sure if it's the same thing . user interface: Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ? marketing: Yeah , that's active . project manager: Or just a green one , user interface: So project manager: because it's If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green . project manager: But if you industrial designer: So marketing: I it's it's just the the project manager: Red's l shows up like something's wrong , industrial designer: Two ? project manager: and green is like it's okay , you press the button . user interface: Maybe depends on industrial designer: Ma on on most on most remote controls it's red . industrial designer: I I think the batteries will be a little user interface: Oh , marketing: Empty . Just project manager: No , we have a recharger in it , so user interface: Oh . It's it's not very important , project manager: Green or red or whatever , it is cool . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can o On the Otherwise it won't work . user interface: So we have to make buttons for that as well , to make it industrial designer: No . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to user interface: Okay . user interface: Well , I I use a universal remote control , marketing: I kno user interface: and list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: And the modern one you you you type search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . industrial designer: So it We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . project manager: I just say Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking There's just a short industrial designer: okay . industrial designer: And by d that can be done by just cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time . industrial designer: And What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , is trying to switch off the television . And when it's switched off , you can push a button as it's working now , so And then he saves that setting project manager: Okay . marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't I w I was a little short on time . To flash up your industrial designer: Yeah marketing: if you if you use the buttons , both of them works . Because when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can Basically if the battery is low , it won't work . project manager: Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're sending a signal . project manager: And it's you also know which button you p marketing: But then have to be on the in the all remote control have to be LEDs . But it marketing: Everywhere in the r project manager: But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED . user interface: No I don't think so , but Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else . user interface: 'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our motto also is marketing: Is LEDs beneath the the buttons ? user interface: Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even . industrial designer: Yeah , but like when you push it user interface: Yeah , then then won't Then you won't see it . Or or m maybe on top of the A green light is flashing marketing: Yeah , then industrial designer: or marketing: Yeah . marketing: Maybe project manager: The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ? user interface: Yeah , we're thinking about it . project manager: If you push user interface: on a mobile phone , in the dark project manager: It lights up . user interface: Yeah , if a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's marketing: Okay . user interface: Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use marketing: Yeah , project manager: Yeah , that's a good idea , okay . We'll have enough power project manager: Everything agre industrial designer: to project manager: Everyone agrees with that , or Okay . marketing: Maybe what Paul said , under the on the on the home station , a button to to call your remote control , that it beeps . Because it's i it has to be marketing: twenty five Euros , I think we can make it . Are you almost finished or just industrial designer: Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out . I don't think so , industrial designer: No , project manager: but industrial designer: and I I think a lot of people use teletext , still use . project manager: Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . user interface: That's important I think and marketing: L_C_D_ doesn't work for twelve and a half Euros I think . user interface: And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it . user interface: So industrial designer: ah I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you marketing: Oh , I'm watching the channel one . No , it's not user interface: Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable . And then the usability is not that required , because the Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think . Is that reachable maybe ? industrial designer: I didn't read marketing: That's very That's fancy . But marketing: If it's possible , industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: I don't think it's very expensive actually . project manager: Why should it ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's marketing: if i if i project manager: You only have a microphone in it . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or project manager: Nah , maybe marketing: Ah that's a problem , but industrial designer: And and w Yeah ? marketing: only in English . does your Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever industrial designer: Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but user interface: one to have in channel one ? marketing: No , that Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do do we do it ? user interface: Yeah , marketing: It's more if we if we do it . user interface: Is project manager: It We have short time to to put it on the market , industrial designer: Yeah , I dunno . marketing: Yeah , and and user interface: It's marketing: In indeed the languages are a difficult thing . I don't think it's useful enough to take the effort to design something with speech recognition . industrial designer: Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech speech recognition , you can just throw the marketing: Yeah . user interface: but marketing: Okay , but th that becomes your f because that's very hard for speech recognition . project manager: you can see on the So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do user interface: Yeah , I think so . project manager: If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ? industrial designer: Yeah , that's good . So It lights up when it's dark ? project manager: Yeah , but it's Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same . user interface: I didn't project manager: If you push something , it it all lights up . Yeah yeah , user interface: Yeah , but marketing: it it mustn't work all the time . marketing: So if you user interface: Or maybe when you marketing: No , if you use one button , it must turn on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off . project manager: And do we use a a what's it called ? Like a iMac , if you can look through it . project manager: so y you just make it th through You look through it ? marketing: A see-through . We put in the the simple buttons on the top , user interface: It's the standard project manager: and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there . project manager: Yeah , maybe you have you have to when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one . With just standard buttons we just have so little project manager: O but maybe you can put the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . user interface: No , I don't need don't need teletext options are only four buttons or something . industrial designer: Yeah , but younger people I think more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext . marketing: user interface: How long is lunch break ? project manager: So yeah , you know what you have to do <doc-sep>project manager: And you are ? In the project ? industrial designer: in the project I'm supposed to be the technic . user interface: My name is Hamed Getabdar , and I'm going to be Interface Designer in this project . project manager: So , so today we are doing a short meeting to present the project , so We are gooding we are going to present the tool we are we are going to use during all this project . We are talking about the project plan , and we are going to to discuss about st our first ideas and so on , and , yeah . So it should be , of course , new and original , and it should be trendy , and user friendly . So w it's we will try to do our best , and hopefully come with something very new and that people want to buy . So , So what's what are we going to do during this all this project ? So it's more like we are going to do inv individual work all in o in o our specialities and we are going to meet each other quite often to discuss and to find a good way . so now we are going to to get used t to to the tools we are going to use all during all this project . project manager: For example we can try to write what is our our favourite animal and write the f our favourite characteristics about it . Well sh should I draw the picture of the animal ? project manager: Yeah , yeah , you can draw the picture , of course . I had to first write it down because I am not absolutely sure if I can draw it , but ah . Can you recognise it as a bird ? project manager: marketing: industrial designer: Okay it's your turn to marketing: Okay , okay . project manager: user interface: marketing: I probably like cats the most because they're cuddly and furry and playful . C could we put it here , to make it as straight as possible ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Ah probably not . Should I clean ? marketing: user interface: Okay , I think like horses because they are strong and beautiful , so if I want to write it here , I think I can . industrial designer: You won't draw them , or ? project manager: You can draw it , if you want . I'm shameful project manager: marketing: Oh that's good , it's good . project manager: so we can start today to have a first idea of what we want to do what are our experiments with remote control , and any idea ? So , if you have some experience , good or bad , with remote controls you can share it and say what you f what is your idea . marketing: Well , from experience , I've had remote controls in the past that have had very they've had lots and lots of buttons and they've been very small , and it's been very hard to to to use , because there's so many buttons , and you know it's very hard to see which buttons do what , and the buttons are very small and very hard to press . and and normally you only every use , you know , on a T_V_ remote you only ever use , mostly , you know , f four or f six buttons . first would be that in current remote controls there is no back light , so if you are if you are playing with this in the dark room it's it's probably worth to to have something like back light . industrial designer: And maybe it could be also dependant on the the amount of of light in the room , so that if if it's in the day it doesn't need to be back lighted because it works on the battery , so . And the second thing , f second point from me would be that in a normal remote control there is there are two buttons for volume control . marketing: Is that because the of the discrete volume levels , or is that industrial designer: Yeah , but I can reach In one second I can mute it down , or or make a high volume . project manager: Are you not afraid that if you take your remote control you can move the slide and it could the the volume can go up very quickly marketing: Yeah . project manager: and it can industrial designer: If it drops to the floor then it starts to scream . project manager: Yeah , also if y when you take the the remote control , for example on the table , you take it and you push the button and everything is very loud , and industrial designer: Yeah , f It depends what what you feel about that . industrial designer: Yeah but we can we can think of these things afterwards , but if you have some more notes on that . project manager: Yeah so you can user interface: I Yeah , project manager: Do you have something ? user interface: just a simple experience . I I prefer remote control working with radio waves , because remote control working with infra-red rays you should you should you should keep it in a specific direction and then try it hard to tune . the the interface interface developer will work on the on the design of the remote control , start to to have new idea and industrial designer: Which i which is Hamed , ? project manager: read about industrial designer: Okay . project manager: So , marketing: project manager: For the User Interface Designer , which is Hamed , user interface: project manager: And for the Marketing Manager , I dunno , okay , which is Bob , you are going to try to to find the user requirements f for the remote control <doc-sep>project manager: So marketing: So project manager: I hope you're ready for this functional design meeting . we want to know to at the end to know the new project's requirement so we need to know the the user needs that we want to fulfil to fulfil the from the technical part we want to know how it going to work and third part I don't remember marketing: project manager: which is not very good . marketing: So I dunno if I can do that like this ? Yeah ? So it's being modified . I am the expert in marketing and I want to tell you about what people s want and like and dislike in remote controls , and I hope this is going to help you to to design it correctly . marketing: So basically what I suggest is that instead of deciding ourself what what could be and what should be a good remote control , let's ask people who are users of remote controls how they feel about w the current remote controls , what they like , what they don't like and and what they do with them by the way industrial designer: marketing: because they are supposed to be useful . So we've we've conducted a a survey on on the use of remote controls and I'd like to show you some of the results we found on this survey . Yeah , so basically what we found was that there are several things that the user don't like in remote controls . Current remote controls as you know they're the same as this one they're not nice colour , not nice shape , they're all the same , and they're not l good looking . what is interesting is that in fact it seems that they were people are ready to pay for nice and look and fancy looking remote control , so I think we should probably spend lots of time in and effort in that . And the other thing is that the the current remote controls are not so easy to use and it it the the current facilities that they offer do not match what people really want to use their remote controls . For instance we see that they zap very often so I think this is a very important functionality that it should be easy for them to to zap in one way or another . And most of the buttons on current remote controls are not used , so I think we should design something where some of the buttons which are those that are used should be easier to see and use than others that only a couple of people are using . Now people are very frustrated w with their remote controls industrial designer: marketing: and they for instance they don't even find it project manager: marketing: it's it's often lost somewhere in the in the in your home and nobody knows where it is . marketing: Maybe if we have something where we could ask the remote control please , where are you ? industrial designer: Yeah . of course phone you can always phone your phone project manager: marketing: but you can't phone your your remote control . industrial designer: marketing: And because of the fact that there are so many buttons in these remote controls that nobody use , industrial designer: . marketing: in fact they don't even know how to use them , so most of the the people say they they don't know how to they to use properly their r remote controls . And they are bad for R_S_I_ but I don't remember what is R_S_I_ . nobody has any idea about that ? Well I'll check with my industrial designer: Yeah , it's electromagnetic waves or something kind of maybe effect . marketing: I think it's a technical thing industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: which our industrial designer: because infrared uses some electromagnetic technology , project manager: industrial designer: and those waves have high marketing: So , it seems that it's a lot of people for a concept that we don't know user interface: But twenty six percent , do you know project manager: Or something we don't know . marketing: So anyway user interface: One of us marketing: that's for what the biggest frustration of the user and industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: s functions that may be used by u the user in the current available remote controls and well the tables look very nice to read but what is important is to understand that the power button is not used often because in general you use it only once per session , but it is very relevant . project manager: marketing: Ah now I remember what is R_S_I_ project manager: marketing: it's repetitivity stress injury . marketing: I continue my presentation so yeah , user interface: marketing: channel selection is very important , very often used . It seems that people find teletext teletext relevant , even if I personally never use it but seems that it's average relevant at least , so . project manager: I have been told that we don't consider teletext , that it's out of date now because of internet . marketing: I can tell you that in a l in a scale between one and ten relevant not relevant to relevant people scored a six on this , which is not as these these two one were had I think ten I think . marketing: Not very relevant , so if if there are good reason not to put teletext it's okay but just know that people find it somehow relevant . project manager: marketing: That's for the main functions I think and then we can ask ourself what people don't have that may be useful . One of the thing the trend that you are probably aware of is the possibility the eventual possibility of having speech recognition in your remote control , so you wouldn't have to tap tap in your buttons but just tell your remote control or whatever you need you have what you want . So we've conducted a survey about whether people would like or not to have this kind of functionality in their remote control and as we can see it really depends on the age . marketing: So now it really depends on the kind of targeting wha who are we targeting with this remote control ? industrial designer: 'Cause marketing: I think if we are targeting young people then it's probably something we have to consider . If we are targeting you very old people this is something they really don't know why they this should be so now project manager: And I don't have any conclusion , I didn't have time the meeting was very tight , so that's basically my findings . marketing: Yeah one question , user interface: you are a Market Expert marketing: yeah ? user interface: so marketing: I am . user interface: should we aim at the young people or not ? marketing: I think we should aim at the young people . marketing: In general the the early adopters of a new device are young people , less than more than user interface: Okay , then teletext is used less . project manager: So now I think it's the turn of the the I'm not sure marketing: project manager: Of the technical function , so marketing: So I think it's you , huh ? industrial designer: it's marketing: No ? user interface: That's me . project manager: what effect industrial designer: techni function of marketing: No , user requiremen industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: I have to do working design so project manager: So you're user interface: That's but this but number three , yes . marketing: user interface: However , Project Manager asked me to give you some presentation about technical functions design . , as I'm a more an artist marketing: project manager: user interface: that's gonna be less technical functions but more User Interface and current intentions and everything which is linked with this . marketing: project manager: user interface: 'Cause current remote controls they are never easy enough to use . marketing: project manager: user interface: It's quite a standard one , but it's not from a T_V_ , it's from a much easier device like air conditioning or something . Only buttons we need is on off , volume , channels and maybe some options or something else , and please make a click , compared to this one marketing: industrial designer: It's user interface: which one would you prefer ? I guess this . marketing: I would say the simplest one as long as there are the I find the buttons that I need every time I need a button . marketing: industrial designer: Maybe it can be yeah middle of like , between those two user interface: Yeah , and our method is going to be , provide simple industrial designer: li project manager: Oh sorry . user interface: Our question of the style , we should remember that our company marketing: user interface: puts fashion into electronics and we should never forget about it . user interface: it's very well , it's it's not an easy field to to play , you know ? So be simple . marketing: user interface: For personal preferences I think that to make a baby-proof remote control it got to be a titanium . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: It's a really good style , it going to be look like like this . And all these buttons should be easy to find and to click , 'cause when you watch a movie and you want to change something , you always try to find a good button and click it , but you should do it by touching it and finding it easily just by touch . So Press project manager: user interface: I would propose this concept for design , just few buttons , a screen with a back light which can change colours , titanium industrial designer: . And let us include two nice features into this device , first , power on and off can be made fully automatic . When you go to the sofa , take your control and point it to the T_V_ , project manager: It's off . marketing: And when does it turn off ? user interface: When you don't touch the control but you go out of the For for enough time marketing: Oh so you have a user interface: like you marketing: sensing sensor machine that knows user interface: It's a question to our technical design , our two engineers . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Tech user interface: And another nice feature that I would like to implement is volume control . Suppose you set u you set up some volume and then you move out or you move to the other corner of the room and take your control with you . Like , you want to to change the chair or you want to move to the armchair from the sofa or something , and then the volume changes . user interface: you just control the marketing: According to your distance to and the angle maybe , if you have a stereo system . So marketing: I'm not sure about the screen , wha what is the use usefulness of the screen ? is it a touch screen by the way ? user interface: I think it can be just a menu which can be controlled with a left , right , up , down and enter . user interface: which makes it easier to find , and each can it can respond for your voice , like it can turn on the light for you just to f find it easily , yeah ? project manager: . project manager: I see that you target several s application not only T_V_ but i like we talk about universal remote control . user interface: Let it be universal , so you want to use it for your hi-fi system . S user interface: All the rest , we sh we'll put it into this menu on the screen . Since we were targeting a really soon date for the the the i issuing of this remote control I think we will only concentrate on T_V_ for the moment and then maybe m make it more generalised yeah . marketing: So for instance if I want to go to directly to channel twenty five , how would I do can I do that with this ? user interface: twenty five . marketing: that's not so easy to go just next next next when you have hundreds of channels . marketing: Or is it ? user interface: Basically you use just four or five channels , right ? marketing: Most people user interface: Yeah . user interface: So set up your T_V_ set like channels that you use they're one , two , three and five , and you will never have to go to a twenty fives channel . marketing: In fact in in one remote control that I've seen , instead of doing that d you could just say these are the cha ch channel three , twenty eight , forty eight and sixty four are those that I want to by cycled with my next button . industrial designer: But even we can have some L_C_D_ display , like you can de you can just button the number marketing: Go to channel twenty five . industrial designer: and then it go marketing: One thing is that as I said in my presentation people really do like to z zap . marketing: So even if they are only watching four or five channels , I think they want to zap out of the one hundred channels , user interface: But otherwise like we can put some display on numbers and then they can just press suppose two five they just press two and five marketing: So it would be industrial designer: and then marketing: Okay . industrial designer: if you want to go for a universal then we ought to limit for functions for each of our devices . user interface: Could we carry out some research if we w really need this , like how many people really need to go to channel number twenty five and then to sixty four ? marketing: Well I could could have a look at that maybe . I am an expert in industrial design of all electronic devices and I previously devised many like digital calculators and electronic calculators . Well , as you know the basic function of remote control is sending some message to the the device , like T_V_ or V_C_R_ or D_V_D_ player etcetera . So we will have a p portable device which will send message to the the main device like T_V_ . So we need to have some energy source to do what to do the functions , what we want on this portable device . And usually this so to do these functions we need an interface , which basically some kind of pressing buttons or keys or like moving jack or something like that . And then these messages these key buttons can be transferred into some kind of message and then it will process by the chip and then it will generate some information to the main device . So , basically we need since we are focusing on our interface device remote control mainly the energy source like the battery and then we have user interface like the keypad and you know buttons we want , and then we have some chip , it's mainly digital signal processing chip because since we are I am one doing mostly digital devices we ought to have some kind of processor which take care of all these functions and put it in some digital format . And then we'll have the infrared L_E_D_ source which sends the information to the main device . Then we'll have switch in our main device to do particular operations , and we ought to do different codes for different T_V_s , project manager: industrial designer: so some T_V_s will have different encryption codes for doing s s channel changing and these things . industrial designer: Yeah yeah , because the people don't use one particular brand so project manager: . industrial designer: So we need to check their specifications and do their encryption that's passing information to the T_V_ device . industrial designer: Then , components , so we have the main energy source and then we will have some buttons and then we will have infrared source and then we have some inside some chip in in the device . And since I also want to know feedback from our Marketing Expert and User Interface , project manager: Yeah , I'm sure , because since our User Interface speech recognition and also Marketing Expert for the speech recognition is really handy , project manager: industrial designer: we can have another , like s simple speech recogniser on our D_S_B_ chip . industrial designer: Since we have some kind of energy this is our this normal battery , so this battery , once you s switch on it will take power and we can have some speech recognition and in our g generally small digital signal processing chip so that and we will put the small simple speech recogniser project manager: On industrial designer: and we can also train the speech recogniser for particular user so you just project manager: train it , okay . No , even in you can find even simple mobile device like any mobile brand you can have these voice dialers or these things , yeah . marketing: Think of a all these young people who would love to say that this remote control only works for them , user interface: Okay . project manager: And what about the price of this component ? industrial designer: So maybe we can make it in five Euros and even less than that , project manager: It okay . industrial designer: because we have only very few words like like power , switch on or some like project manager: industrial designer: then we'll have something like this we'll have volume and then we will have s particular channel , so users can listen . marketing: The user will just be able to say please can you pump up the vo pump up the volume project manager: industrial designer: Ye No , yeah , a user can use any kind of sender but they should have this prompt volume and then marketing: Okay . industrial designer: yeah volume and decrease or increase , so we try to only recognise those words marketing: Okay . industrial designer: and and because we can't really say user to say same wording marketing: Couple of words . industrial designer: And then we can have channel they can say , okay I want eight , because we don't know like users have different programmes , they don't really follow same channels strict so we just want channel number , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: we don't want like B_B_C_ or C_N_N_ or something else marketing: Of course it has to be industrial designer: because it will be complicated so we'll have only these three main basic anyway volume is not really speech recognition problem , marketing: Okay . user interface: No you know it's a conceptual question , 'cause now I see th this the picture in front of my eyes like a user taking his remote control and shouting into it , volume up , volume up , project manager: marketing: But then I think you you user interface: and and he's coming you know , he's really annoyed with this , down , up , down . project manager: marketing: First of all I I think this is not functionality that it is going to be instead of using the buttons . industrial designer: Yeah actually we we can have one switch to like switch on , on and off , this processor and This really , suppose like here we have our main chip which controls power , volume and this part and this D_S_P_s . industrial designer: Again , this to have some interaction like suppose people use D_S_P_ then it particularly sends some information to the chip like in some form , like volume and like this key . industrial designer: So it may not be like very expensive , because since we are only focusing on T_V_ remote control marketing: T_V_ . industrial designer: so and we have only few things here project manager: Sho to to train , okay . user interface: Like , if I want to put volume up I like do I take my remote control do like something like marketing: user interface: roll 'em up industrial designer: this point we didn't consider user interface: or roll 'em down . marketing: Very expensive , industrial designer: because it's it's very expensive marketing: no ? industrial designer: because v our target is only like twelve point five Euros project manager: And well , what about the idea of automatic on off on the button , yeah . user interface: why ? industrial designer: and user interface: That's just industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: And volume control . industrial designer: even automatic on off is also a bit problematic , because it different criteria for different people like so suppose people are really they just they don't touch the remote and y you don't know how much time you need to switch on or switch off marketing: So but industrial designer: and marketing: Sh should we target a a user personalised remote control ? So in in a given room there might be more than one remote control . Yeah that can be possible , especially for power settings , so user can say okay , suppose they're watching a tennis match or something then they can say okay after one hour I marketing: . project manager: Wouldn't that make arguments ? industrial designer: They can make marketing: Yeah , of course . project manager: I want user interface: industrial designer: Yeah we can have marketing: That's no problem , we will sell more . project manager: And we can increase this the strength user interface: We got a really good Market Expert . project manager: y you can buy one with user interface: Let's send more , let's sell more . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: I think , okay , we're just on time . project manager: Then we will work again for thirty minutes individual work , and we will meet again for the next meeting , and in this one want to to be more focused on the individual actions the on the components so you will focus on the component concept industrial designer: Yeah yeah . project manager: of course the U_I_D_ Mark will be focused on the user interface concept industrial designer: Mark will project manager: and our m Market Expert Sammy Benjo on the trend watching . And we have maybe we have to we say , only for T_V_ , not teletext ? marketing: project manager: I think automatic on off control it's not possible . user interface: should it be equipped with the , with speakers ? marketing: Speakers in the remote cont user interface: Like , you want to find it , you shout marketing: Oh yeah . project manager: yeah user interface: control , project manager: that's user interface: and it answers is I'm here ? Or marketing: It just beeps . project manager: yeah ? Think industrial designer: Yeah , especially the power , it really consumes project manager: -huh . industrial designer: because it should be all the time on and project manager: And marketing: Well I I heard of devices where you just whistle them and and they project manager: And it's answered . industrial designer: But it's a good feature I guess yeah we need to think about more how to incorporate it . user interface: Just don't interfere with other devices like 'cause like all these people do that their lights are turning on with clapping . marketing: Oh that's e that already exists user interface: Yeah , I got it at my home , like . Good project manager: So , marketing: we're done ? project manager: yeah , industrial designer: Yeah

The group discussed the issue of volume control and agreed that using two discrete buttons for volume was not efficient. Instead, they proposed using a potential-meter or a slider that would allow users to quickly adjust the volume. The user interface designer emphasized the importance of simplicity and proposed a remote control with minimal buttons, a backlit screen that can change colors, and a titanium material, which was approved by the group. Marketing suggested incorporating high-tech features like an LCD display and speech recognition, particularly targeting younger users. However, the industrial designer expressed concerns about the impact on circuit design and pricing, while marketing believed it was feasible. The industrial designer also highlighted the need to consider battery life if speech recognition was implemented. The user interface team suggested unique designs and recommended adding options for favorite channels and a menu button that could integrate with volume and navigation buttons. The group agreed to make the remote slightly smaller and drew inspiration from mobile phone designs.

Summarize the reasons for the industrial designer's preference for a potential-meter for volume control and the discussions on technical function design and high technology features.

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 13th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Chairs chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. We have amazing speakersand an amazing Speaker, but that's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber, and they do pick up everything. For those joining us via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you're not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel, and if you want to speak in French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today, so we'll continue to the presentation of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. They provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year, and the European Union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them, the neonicotinoids. This petition calls on the Government of Canada, for the sake of bees and our food security, to follow Europe's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in Canada. It raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations, which is what makes this first petition particularly timely. I am tabling a petition related to Bill C-7, the government's euthanasia bill, which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago. When some people are living in deplorable conditions, we cannot truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die. Especially in light of that new information, I commend this petition for the consideration of members of the House. The second petition is in support of Bill S-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking, put forward in the Senate. The bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor's consent. It relates to what I think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months. In this pandemic, there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more, and who are of course deemed essential services. The petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $20 an hour, in light of their service and the risks they're taking for all of us. She said that when we present petitions, we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table. the chair: I want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions, they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front, as opposed to going on for a long time. Now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes, and each statement will be for one minute. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): Thank you, Mr. Today I am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville who are part of the 52nd Mississauga Scouts. For over a decade, I've had the great opportunity to join the Scouts every year during the month of May for the door-to-door food drives. This year has been a lot different, owing to the COVID situation, but our Scouts are not used to saying the word impossible. David Chant, head leader for their cub pack, reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank. I say a big thank you to Scout leaders like David, who are strong role models for our youth, teaching them the importance of leadership, kindness and giving back. David and his group of Scouts raised over $46,000 worth of food last year for the Mississauga Food Bank and The Compass. Again, I give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young Scouts, who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): May 24 to May 31 is Tourism Week in Canada. This annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of Canada's tourism industry. This is a very important industry, and this year's Tourism Week is a little different from what it normally is. The ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel, and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns. Clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen. Operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening. While this Tourism Week is not a celebration like the one we had expected, I anticipate next year's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in Canada. Chair, Monday was a sad day in my riding of BonavistaBurinTrinity, and indeed our entire province. Please join me as I offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of St. Ed Norman, his son Scott Norman and his nephew Jody Norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past Monday. After a courageous search mission by Canadian Coast Guard auxiliary members and the Department of National Defence and Provincial Airlines, he is unfortunately still missing. Chair, I am sure the entire province of Newfoundland and Labrador, this parliamentary family and Canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men, along with their friends and families, during this difficult time. This builder of Quebec's political history drew his last breath at the age of91, late Sunday night. Mr.Dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in Jonquire. He first became involved in the Alcan employee's union in Arvida, then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor, then in the Quebec National Assembly as the member for Jonquire. He will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community, a man of integrity, a people person, who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in Quebec. On behalf of the people of the riding of Jonquire and all the people of Quebec, I offer my most sincere condolences to FrancisDufour's family and loved ones. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The pandemic has greatly affected Montreal East, particularly the riding of Hochelaga, which I represent. Today, I'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in Hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations, including Anonyme, CAP St-Barnab, CARE Montral, the Cuisine collective Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, Bouffe Action, the Centre Communautaire Hochelaga, Chic Resto Pop, Jojo Dpannage, Groupe d'Entraide de Mercier-Ouest and many others. I'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves, including the Coop Couturires Pop, to make masks. Allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours. Chair, I rise today to pay tribute to a great Albertan and former parliamentarian, Louise Feltham, who passed away this Monday after a lengthy battle with cancer. She inspired the family motto How hard can it be? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime. Her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural Alberta, the first female reeve in rural Alberta and the first woman born in Newfoundland to serve in this chamber. My thoughts and sympathies are with him, his wife Tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss. Chair, it is a great honour to speak to the House of Commons today from Whitehorse, Yukon, here on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dn First Nation and the Ta'an Kwch'n Council. As a great historic Canadian event last week, Yukon became home to Canada's first university north of 60. Yukon University will provide Yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home, expand our research capabilities and expertise on the Arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north. I encourage all students living in the northern half of Canada to look at the many programs and degrees at Yukon University to continue their studiesin some cases this year, virtuallyby remaining in the north. I want to congratulate the staff of Yukon College, who spent the last decade working towards this transition, and especially the outgoing president, Karen Barnes. First of all, from the Long Range Mountains, I too want to send my condolences to my colleague, Mr. We're all communities that rely on the sea, and we understand the importance and the tragedy, and the hard work it is being fishers. However, today, colleagues, I want to mention, as my colleague from across the way said, that it's national tourism week, so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings. The tourism economy was hit very hard, especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs. It's exciting to speak with them about how they're working on their new normal and how it's going to be developed and implemented here in the Long Range Mountains. Remember too that many of our national parks are opening on June 1, so get out and explore the park in your backyard. I look forward to working with the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, Destination Canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic, we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the COVID-19 crisis occurred. I would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of LvisLotbinire. Fine men and women committed to human dignity, volunteers, retirees, and you, who have wisely agreed to stay home, you have been part, to varying degrees, of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst. Many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again; our seniors are being cuddled, with great care, and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job. I say bravo, thank you and don't give up, even though you have already earned your place in heaven. From his laboratories at the Univerist de Montral, he worked with CHUM and the Centre hospitalier universitaire SainteJustine, renowned institutions in Outremont. They are Quebeckers, Canadians, who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives. Since coming into office, our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science. Recently, we announced new funding for COVID-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers. We are working very hard to find a vaccine for COVID-19, and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we don't even know the names of yet. Chair, citizens in my riding of AuroraOak RidgesRichmond Hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families, their friends and even strangers during this difficult period. The Aurora Chamber of Commerce and the Richmond Hill Board of Trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times. Organizations like The STEAM Project and Ganesha Temple are making and donating face masks for those in need. The Aurora Farmers' Market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us, but this year with one key person missing. Our community has lost one of the farmers' market's founders, our jam lady, Jan Freedman. My sincere thanks to everyone who's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits. We also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren, which is why it is important to be prudent, to make wise choices and, above all, to know where we are going. It's a shame that every time we ask the government a question, no minister can tell us how big the Canadian deficit is. In fact, last Tuesday, at a parliamentary committee meeting in the Senate, the Parliamentary Budget Officer made some very scathing remarks about the government. He said that there had to be a deadline or we'd be heading toward taxation levels that haven't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit. The Prime Minister needs to know that we can't play Santa Claus every day, because the bills in January come in fast, and they are high. That's why I'm so disappointed that the Liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women. Not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia, it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time. Now we've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors, when plasma is so critical in emerging COVID-19 research and treatment. More than 17 countries, including Argentina, Italy and Spain, have no deferral period for men who have sex with men. They know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules. I have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and I do so again today, but today I also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who cannot. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. On another note, the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses. In Rivire-des-Mille-les, as in many other ridings, we respond daily to businesses that don't have access to it. Unfortunately, there are people in our ridings who won't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer. It's so embarrassing that it's shameful, disrespectful and ridiculous. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. This week is Paramedic Services Week, and I would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives. Their efforts during COVID-19, like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care, such as personal support workers, doctors, nurses, janitorial and clerical staff, lab technicians and many others, have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty. I hope this week all Canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead. Chair, I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic, the cancellation of the Kinmount Fair, a renowned event that has been running since 1870. This year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary, but in true Kinmount spirit, this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the members of the Canadian Armed Forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities. Through the observations and testimonies of these members, we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time. Among many other loathsome details, they were left to starve, were abused and lived in filth, their cries of anguish ignored. It is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again. Usually there are a few extra seconds, which doesn't matter, but some of them have gone quite a bit over time, so starting Monday we'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds. I encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them, and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we don't go over our allotted time. I would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they're saying. I'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in, as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber. The government has consistently worked to shut down Parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by Zoom. However, for work of the G7 the Prime Minister said, theres no question that in-person meetings...are much more effective than even virtual meetings. By pushing to go virtual, is it the Prime Minister's goal to make Canada's Parliament less effective? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. In fact, I am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from Ottawa than I do have the opportunity to join us. Parliament plays an essential role in our democracy, and it's the chair: We will go back to Mr. A Saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online AgriStability calculator. He said that most farmers can't use it, that in fact they can't put in their inventory changes. Why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it doesn't actually work? hon. Chair, the agricultural sector is critical to our country, and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are, as Canadians, to be living in an agricultural superpower. When it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have, they should turn to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, who will be delighted to help. john barlow: Could the Deputy Prime Minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online AgriStability calculator? hon. chrystia freeland: What I can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator, but they've been told they would go broke before they received any money. Will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to Canadian farmers? hon. Chair, very many farmers, and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance, have worked with accountants for a very long time. The last time I questioned the Prime Minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data, they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the House. Will that be tabled today, in both official languages, to justify to Canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic? hon. I am proud of the sophistication of Canadian farmers, and I'm proud of the support we offer them. Some honourable members: Oh, oh! the chair: I want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via Zoom. I just want to make sure they're aware of what they're doing to our colleagues who are online. Chair, for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist Canada's energy sector. Small oil and gas companies still can't qualify for BDC loans, and last week's announcement for large employers, in my opinion, was nothing of exploitive. If the government doesn't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector, it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable Canadian jobs. After 64 days, when will the credit options be available to Canada's small and medium-sized energy companies? hon. Chair, I agree with the member opposite about one thing: The energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy, and we support them. One of the things I am most proud of is the $1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): Mr.Chair, I'll try not to spend too much time. Will the Liberal Party of Canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers, help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a no. The company doesn't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28% instead of30%. Does the Liberal Party of Canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of Val-Jalbert and Trillium Media? hon. member opposite what we're doing to support Canadians: more than 8million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers' pockets? It even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store. On the other side of the House, is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support Canadians and Quebeckers: 293applications for the Canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved. Over 2million Canadians today have the chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. It's fantastic! The money that the Liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty. When they go to get their election expenses reimbursed, they're going to get 60%of that money back. We think we all need to work together to continue to help Canadians and Quebeckers the chair: Order. alexis brunelle-duceppe: I don't know how to take it this time. I think it's necessary to stop, eject and throw the tape out, and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask. Can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question? Are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so, once again, make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, we've already seen a Duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the Liberal Party for the Liberal Party. colleague tell me if she's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they don't deserve the wage subsidy, because their loss of income is only28% or29%, while her party is dipping into the cookie jar, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help Canadians in this historic crisis. Our economic support program is the largest program in Canada's history the chair: We will now continue with Mr. Will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, that's a very important question, and I would like to thank the member for asking it. Chair, experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors, there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors. Will the Liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors? hon. Chair, I want to start by saying one thing, and that is to publicly thank, in this House, Brigadier-General Conrad Mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in Ontario. What they did is historic, and we all need to the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. However, they don't need our thanks right now; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out. What is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own? hon. Chair, I agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week, all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in Canada in the future. jagmeet singh: If all the options are on the table, will the Liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care, particularly in the Revera long-term care homes, the second-largest number in Canada, which the government owns? Will it commit to removing profit from long-term care? hon. chrystia freeland: What we will commit to doand I hope with the support of all members of this Houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners, under whose jurisdiction this falls, to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, Revera is a Crown corporation owned by the government, so let's not hear excuses. Is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for? Is it providing for robust inspections, yes or no? hon. One of the strengths of Canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions, and they serve us extremely well. Will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in Revera? As we've seen, it is facing a $50-million lawsuit, and there's been horrible negligence. Chair, as I said at the outset, the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table. I also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing, which is to work very closely with the provinces, under whose jurisdiction this falls. In just the past 24 hours, I have spoken with Premier Ford, Premier Horgan and Premier Moe, and our conversation included long-term care facilities. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Today I join critics from the NDP, the Bloc and the Green Party who deal with women's issues and gender equality to ask where the $75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone. Last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls, so the simple question is this: Where is the money? hon. I agree that human trafficking, which is a crime of coercion and exploitation, is unacceptable, and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime. As the member knows, we have launched a new, comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking, and we've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: We'll go back to Ms. karen vecchio: With all due respect, it's great that we have a strategy, but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services, a strategy is nothing. Chair, let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking. I remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports, and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: We'll go back to Ms. What should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now? What is the answer from the government? hon. Chair, no one should have to live a life with violence, whether it's sexual, physical, financial or emotional, and that the government of Canada the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. Yesterday I happened to be part of the health committee, and the Battered Women's Support Services representative was there as a witness. She shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with, over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters, did not receive funding. They are receiving funds through Feminists Deliver, but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities, and we will have more to say soon. Chair, we know that calls to centres like Battered Women's Support Services have gone up by 300 times, so this is a huge concern I have. As I said, hundreds of organizations like the Battered Women's Support Services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days. Chair, some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400% with their capacity limited by 400%. We've centres and women's shelters, and 700 have received funds, with more to come soon. I appreciate that this Parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: We'll go back to Ms. karen vecchio: If we're talking about being a feminist government, I have one single question. Yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question, so I will ask the Minister for Women and Gender Equality. How can a feminist government support the Wet'suwet'en First Nation women whose titles were stripped from them? hon. We are happy to do that, and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward. karen vecchio: These women have lost their titles, and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs. Why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles? hon. Chair, I think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations, Inuit, and Mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws. Right now the Wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like. The Uyghur Human Rights Policy Act has passed both houses of Congress in the United States and is now on the way to the Oval Office for signature. What is Canada's position on this Muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the Communist Party of China? hon. Chair, we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the Uighurs and other minorities in China. Their Muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in Bangladesh, which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic. We will continue to call on the Chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people, including the freedom of religion, are fully respected. david sweet: Yesterday the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the Communist Party of China. mary ng: Canada, with our international partners in the U.S., Australia and the U.K., made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong. david sweet: Canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak. The Suez Canal, Cyprus, the fall of apartheid, child and maternal health in Africa, and Afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how Canada has weighed in significantly. Chair, with hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in Hong Kong's stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world. david sweet: I think the 300,000 Canadians who are in Hong Kong want a little bit more than interest from the government. What exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 Canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now? hon. Chair, Canada has expressed deep concern regarding China's imposition of the new security law for Hong Kong. We are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world. After being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday, 300 students were arrested in Hong Kong while peacefully protesting. Where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the CPC is doing in Hong Kong? hon. Chair, as we have said, we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on Hong Kong. Chair, I'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that I asked. Yesterday, the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill, undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the Chinese Communist Party. mary ng: Canada will continue to support Hong Kong's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the Basic Law and the one country, two systems framework. Canada and our international partners, with the U.S., Australia and the U.K., have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Steven Blaney: I am pleased to represent the city of Lvis, because it is a privilege, Mr.Chair. It is the city where Alphonse Desjardins, who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement, was born. We thought it was to improve the program, but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between April7 and9? hon. We have added flexibilities, including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until February of next year. It remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students, with 100% of them being subsidized at 100%. steven blaney: The minister confirms that the budget remains the same, but that by subsidizing each job more, they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic. Why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic, when our young people want to work? hon. Chair, I can assure the member, all members and all Canadians that despite the fact that he's singling out the Canada summer jobs program, we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy, with an additional 40,000 placements for students. I can assure the member that we are the chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blaney once again. steven blaney: How many jobs are vacant right now? The program is lagging behind compared to other years. Why, and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs? hon. We created flexibilities in Canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions. I can assure young Canadians that there is work for them there, and I encourage them to check out the job bank. steven blaney: The minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic, when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people. Why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the Canada summer jobs program, when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic? hon. We've increased the number of jobs funded through our government's youth programs by over 100%. We've added flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this. I can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer. steven blaney: When the minister says maximize, she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same, but that each position is funded more. My question is very simple: why not fund more jobs through the Canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the Canada emergency student benefit, which does not allow young people to get work experience? We need young people and they want to work. carla qualtrough: I agree, absolutely, that we need young people to work this summer. Canada summer jobs is being maxed out, and that's a good thing, because we've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs. I can assure the member that we're creating so many jobs, and it's so exciting for our young people. steven blaney: The Canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work, and employers have difficulty hiring them. Chair, I'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work. Yesterday my colleague asked the Minister of Public Safety a question, and he did not get a good answer. Why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when Canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the U.S.? hon. Chair, to correct an error that was just repeated, we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel. We currently have an agreement with the United States that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the United States. I have another citizen who's married to an American woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back. I also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they're not allowing custody arrangements between Canadians and Americans to continue. At the same time, we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of Canadians. We've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families. Chair, the Minister of Agriculture has known there's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing. We don't have a BSE exemption that would allow us to use American processors, and there's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): We have done a great deal for the meat sector lately. We have invested $100million in the beef and pork sectors through the AgriRecovery program. That's a significant increase, because in the last few years the program has provided between $7million and $15million only. We have also invested $77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: We'll go back to Ms. What is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling, especially in this pandemic? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, once again, we have helped the meat sector through the AgriRecovery program and we have put in place a $77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: We will go back to Ms. To the Minister of National Revenue, I've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed. When will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, we consider this to be a difficult situation for Canadians, and our government will do everything it can to support them. I can confirm that the CRA is still processing paper returns, but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing, Canadians can expect delays. We regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: We will go back to Ms.Gladu. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): Mr.Chair, I have a point of order. I'm not sure whether there's anything we can do now, but we'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting. Chair, obviously with COVID, many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief. The Canadian Grief Alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling. patty hajdu (minister of health): I'm not aware of that specific proposal, but I commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and I will take a look. Can the Minister of Health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering? hon. patty hajdu: I know I don't have much time, but let me repeat our infomercial to Canadians. They should visit Wellness Together Canada, the portal that will provide access for Canadians to a variety of mental health supports, including connection to professionals. Major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future, many event venues right now, such as concert halls and fairgrounds, are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue. I can think of many in my riding, such as the Saskatoon Fringe Festival, Shakespeare on the Saskatchewan, the jazz festival, the folk festival, along with WDM and the Aviation Museum. Can the Minister of Canadian Heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): As the member knows, we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector. We have provided advance help to a number of organizations from Canadian Heritage programs or the Canada Council for the Arts on top of the $500-million program, which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations. The reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation even more disturbing. I asked the minister on May 7 about these allegations, and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them. We can't afford to have a Crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country. Has the minister begun the investigation into the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and does he have any information that he can share with us here today? hon. steven guilbeault: As the member said, these are allegations, and as you well know, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is an independent body. Chair, is that these allegations against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation came from an organization in the minister's own province of Quebec, so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the CBC, or can the government's friends at the CBC simply get away with anything? hon. steven guilbeault: Allegations are allegations, whether they are made in Quebec, Ontario or Alberta. kevin waugh: When I last rose, on May 7, the committee responsible for the government's massive $595-million media bailout package had not met. Has the committee met? If yes, when can the media organizationsand I hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised? If it hasn't met, when is it going to meet? hon. steven guilbeault: As the member is well aware, this program is a tax-break program. In order for organizations to qualify, they had to file their income tax forms, which they have done over the last few weeks. The program is in place, and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer. kevin waugh: There was $30 million rolled out to media organizations, some 1,400 organizations. Has the $30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations? the chair: Honourable minister, go ahead for 20 seconds or less, please. I would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I'm feeling generous today, and I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Pierre-BoucherLesPatriotesVerchres. At the beginning of the crisis, the government called on entrepreneurs in Quebec and Canada, inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing. Many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security, enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind. However, on May22, despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the SUB program would still be in place when the CERB was introduced, they were surprised. Employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the CERB because of the alleged gains they had made under the SUB program. At SOPREMA, one of the large employers in the Drummondville region, 150employees are affected. At Bridgestone, in Joliette, 1,100employees are affected by this decision. At Goodyear, in Valleyfield, 150employees are affected, and there are dozens more. Does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period? hon. carla qualtrough: When we put in place the Canada emergency response benefit, the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for COVID reasons. We understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward, although let me clarify that SUB plans that existed prior to March 15 are definitely in place. We consider the fact that workers have access to $1,000 a month in addition to CERBand we've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way. martin champoux: Mr.Chair, employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented, despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the CERB. Does the government intend to fix this mistake, which would simply be the right thing to do? hon. Chair, I can assure the member opposite that the SUB plans that were in place prior to March 15 are indeed in place now. In addition, employees who are now on the CERB as an alternative have access to $1,000 of income in addition to their CERB. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. On April27, Option consommateurs sent a letter to the Minister of Transport to warn him that the airlines' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to Quebec's laws. marc garneau (minister of transport): Mr.Chair, I sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund, and I understand their frustration. A few hours ago, the following motion was passed unanimously: THAT the National Assembly ask the Government of Canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund. marc garneau: Mr.Chair, as my hon.colleague knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that, in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way, it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years. the chair: Mr.Barsalou-Duval, you have about 15seconds for a question. xavier barsalou-duval: Mr.Chair, I find it rather odd that the Minister of Transport and the Canadian Transportation Agency are telling the airlines that Quebec's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them. Theoretically, under the famous Canadian Constitution, which they imposed on us, that is not how it should work. colleague probably knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm's length from Transport Canada and the Government of Canada. We're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety, including myself. Chair, I'll be sharing my time with the member for GlengarryPrescottRussell. Minister, in Etobicoke Centre, we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville Care Centre. This week, we received a disturbing report from the Canadian Armed Forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes Grace Manor in Brampton. As I said in the House of Commons on May 7, we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care. The four other MPs who represent the residents of these homes and I wrote to Premier Ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations, to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the Government of Canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country. Minister, will you call on the Government of Ontario to establish a full public inquiry, and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across Canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve? the acting chair (mr. I think all Canadians were horrified, shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country. I know the Prime Minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors, no matter where they live. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): Mr.Chair, we know that farmers across Canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months. I was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, in these unprecedented times, our producers are working that much harder to feed Canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy, particularly in terms of access to labour. To help them, this week, the Prime Minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector. This is a $9.2-million investment that will help to attract young Canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector. In early April, the NDP asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords, but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord can't or does not want to apply. On Monday we wrote to ministers again, asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants can't be kicked out. Will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during COVID-19? the acting chair (mr. We recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular, as well as landlords, are facing during the course of COVID-19. We have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants. Of course, we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces, so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps, if any, in this regard. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this, which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants. If the government won't negotiate a moratorium, will it at least let tenants apply for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50% of their rent? hon. The federal government is working through the CMHC to provide support to landlords, which is conditional on their working with their tenants, but of course, it is a provincial area of jurisdiction, so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on. Chair, they talk about wanting to support small businesses, but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business. Many people in my riding could not make rent on April 1 and May 1, and June 1 is coming up. For businesses, of course, we've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program. leah gazan: I just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question I asked. In fact, the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question. I am monitoring that, and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over. In fact, we try to cut it off at the appropriate time, allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase, and that's the extent of it. Chair, Winnipeg Centre is the third-poorest riding in the country, and COVID-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness. Instead of bailing out its corporate buddies, when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets? the acting chair (mr. In addition to that, we have provided over $157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across Canada . How can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes? Will this government provide support, yes or no? hon. Chair, once again, we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses. In addition to that, we have moved additional dollars, in the amount of $157.5 million, to the most vulnerable, including the homeless population in Canada. rachael harder: As this pandemic began to spread, the government propagated China's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible. Chair, the member opposite's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting. I'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late December, and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting, the information changed. rachael harder: I'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading. Chair, since the very beginning, we have been advising Canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus. rachael harder: The minister also said that face masks weren't necessary, that they wouldn't help Canadians. Chair, as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus, as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence, we adapted to adjust our advice to Canadians. rachael harder: Why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the Canadian public misinformation? hon. rachael harder: Back in January when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of COVID-19, Conservatives asked the government if it would do the same. As the member opposite knows, we took strong measures at the border, as recommended by the international health regulations, and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time. rachael harder: I cannot agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is, in fact, incredibly wrong, which is why the government should simply apologize to the Canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep, that they didn't need to wear face masks, that we didn't need to close our borders, that human contact or contraction was impossible. Why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the Canadian public? Some hon. Chair, I maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward, that as new advice comes forward.... I'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously, now that she understands that they are misleading. Chair, I am so proud of Canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health. rachael harder: On February 3, Conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action. Unfortunately, Minister Hajdu scolded Conservative MPs, stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus. Chair, very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the Canadian community. We took strong action to assure those Canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in Canada. rachael harder: Would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the House somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is? hon. Tam was convening members of the Canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust Canadian response to an issue of potential concern. Chair, while the government has told the Canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about, that we didn't need to close the borders and that face masks weren't necessary, they were misleading the Canadian public. Now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth, spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online. Would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the Canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. Chair, I want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that Canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves. bruce stanton): I invite the honourable member for MganticL'rable to take the floor. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. One million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a CHSLD; it is a new fire station; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in Quebec. With $1million, the Liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. Does the Minister of Infrastructure agree with the bank's board, which is being so generous to its president with Canadians' money? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): Mr.Chair, I am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country. We are building by investing in renewable energy, green infrastructure and public transit, including in the member's riding. Chair, could the infrastructure minister explain to Canadians how it is better to give $1 million in bonuses to the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank than to invest in roads, schools, hospitals and long-term care homes? hon. Perhaps he isn't aware of our $33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the Government of Quebec to build infrastructure that's making a huge difference, including projects in the member's riding. On April3, the previous president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear. How much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the Canada Infrastructure Bank? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, the change of management at the Canada Infrastructure Bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank. We are working to build a modern, public infrastructure, to create jobs, and to make Canada more competitive internationally. What were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former CEO had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus, when few, if any, projects were financed by the bank? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the former CEO, Pierre Lavalle, for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution. luc berthold: Did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank? hon. catherine mckenna: As I have already said, the compensation range for the CEO is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. If the new president stays in the position for five years, he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $4million, in addition to his salary of $3million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money? hon. catherine mckenna: We have to build our country, create good short-term jobs, ensure that we have a cleaner future, invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges, public transportation the acting chair (mr. Chair, if the new CEO stays in office for five years, he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $4 million, in addition to his salary of $3 million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money, yes or no? hon. Chair, I'm very proud that we have Michael Sabia, who is now head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank as the board chair. We need to move forward in building infrastructure that's going to create jobs, including in the member's riding; that's going to help move us to a cleaner future; that's going to grow our economy and increase Canada's competitiveness. Chair, the COVID-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially. Christian Buhagiar of Supply Chain Canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency. Will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to COVID-19? the acting chair (mr. Chair, the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the Canada free trade agreement, focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers. Due to COVID-19, it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed. Chair, it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers, who have been meeting every week for more than two months, to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus. However, I agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade. Chair, while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic, two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection. Considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic, would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items? the acting chair (mr. I can assure you, as far as the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is concerned, that we are very open to that issue. Moreover, the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another. Does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, since we are discussing the food supply chain, let me remind you that we are committed to spending $50million, specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it, through the food bank network, to regions where the need is greatest. Chair, reports state that activists' rail blockades earlier this year cost the Canadian economy $275 million, and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down. The supply chain industry just caught up, and then the pandemic hit, creating new issues and backlogs. We are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country. Will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades? the acting chair (mr. Chair, I couldn't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country. Certain products are moving very well at the moment, including grain, potash and coal, but other goods haven't moved as quickly, because they have been affected by the pandemic. We are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible, whether it's by our railways, by trucks or by ships. Chair, at the standing committee for industry this week, David Montpetit of the Western Canadian Shippers' Coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months. This could backlog essential goods interprovincially, including food and medicine, if the capacity isn't there. With respect to trucking, we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country. Young and new farmers are struggling, as they don't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times. Price insurance is key, but the premiums are so expensive due to COVID that they can't participate. marie-claude bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair, we are encouraging the use of private programs, as well as the risk management programs. cathay wagantall: Has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure my colleague that I am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues. cathay wagantall: Is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, for insurance protection, our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk. cathay wagantall: Without price insurance, how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers. For example, we are providing $50million through the AgriRecovery program and $77.5million for food processors. cathay wagantall: On May 1, the Young Cattlemen's Council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day. We are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs, in addition to the risk management programs, of course. cathay wagantall: She didn't respond to the request of the Young Cattlemen's Council. The minister is telling farmers to access the BRM program, but just now I got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who's losing $250 to $300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis. The Farm Credit Canada lending capacity was increased by $5 billion, but only to service and manage loans of current customers. marie-claude bibeau: However, Mr.Chair, there is a whole range of programs for our producers, whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector, or the Canada emergency business account, the CEBA, the criteria of which have been broadened. This allows us to provide more loans, also with a forgivable portion of 25%, which could amount to $670million for the agricultural sector. cathay wagantall: What percentage of Canada's farmers are customers of Farm Credit Canada? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, Farm Credit Canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers. cathay wagantall: Of the 25% of farmers who use FCC and have applied, how many have received assistance? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I stand to be corrected but, according to the most recent information I have received, $4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began. cathay wagantall: Is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers aren't able to protect the value of their herds, which they cannot do, jeopardizing the future of the Canadian beef supply chain? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure you that I am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector. That is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones, especially in support of the meat industry. cathay wagantall: They made it clear that the BRM programs don't work and there's not funding in place to assist them. How many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this Liberal government? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Once again, Mr.Chair, we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect. The Minister of Employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities, similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on OAS and GIS. Could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made? When can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance? the acting chair (mr. Chair, we know that Canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by COVID in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have, or don't have, more specifically. We are three days away from National AccessAbility Week, the first week after we legislated it in the Accessible Canada Act. My office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program. How will the government ensure that the messaging for BCAP and similar programs is articulated properly? the acting chair (mr. Nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported. The lending program through BCAP is available through financial institutions; that's banks and credit unions across the country. Chair, members may not be aware, but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic, to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority. Can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation? the acting chair (mr. Thank you to my colleague for her important question, which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for Canadians, being mindful, of course, of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves, both personally and professionally. We know that, in particular, indigenous communities need that support, and particularly so in the context of the crisis. jody wilson-raybould: As current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes, something I would strongly support, can the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released? In asking this question, I certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic. There are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation. As we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report, we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited, plus. Despite the challenges of COVID-19, they have put in good initiatives, and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners. Wilson-Raybould, you're down to about the last 30 seconds, so please ask a short question. Does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers? I've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard. Chair, as I mentioned before, we're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment. However, the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time, and if they had to reimburse at this time, some of them could fail. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): Thank you very much, Mr. I want to begin by indicating that I'll be splitting my time with the member for SkeenaBulkley Valley. Across the country, a lot of Canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace, with the right procedures and the right equipment. For Canadians who are employed by them, that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they don't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities, and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they're not at work or because they will lose access to the CERB. I am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer hasn't done its due diligence, and are concerned about losing access to the CERB. Chair, we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we don't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work. We are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe, that they don't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts. Chair, I think the issue here is that Canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer, or an offer to come back to work, so that they wouldn't be on the CERB. Can Canadians be confident that they can stay on the CERB whether they go back to work or not, whether their employer makes them an offer or not? I think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it's a difficult time. When is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work? hon. Chair, we know that the provinces have their own workers' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms, but the point for us, here in government, is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe. Canadians depend on municipalities across Canada for vital services, especially during this pandemicservices like transit, drinking water, parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis. Local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help, yet mostly what we've heard are excuses. Does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time? hon. chrystia freeland: What we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times, and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy. We are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces, in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall. taylor bachrach: Through you to the minister, we've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way. We've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off, and it's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief. We are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in, and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning, particularly as we move into the restart. We're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces, as we are doing too. Are there emergency federal dollars on the table for Canada's cities, yes, or no? hon. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. At a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and Quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts, the Liberal Party, the government, is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it, not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters. At a time when the work in the House is even more essentialwe should be working even harder, just as we are asking the people to dothe government, with the complicity of the NDP, decides to suspend the work of the House. Can the government confirm to the House, and simultaneously to the NDP, that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do? It is not in its jurisdiction, so it is a measure that it cannot implement. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): Mr.Chair, in order to be part of any agreement, you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table. The Bloc Qubcois says it wants to make gains for Quebec, but in order to do that, it must be sitting at the table, not outside the room. It's like a hockey game; if you want to score goals, you have to be on the ice. The other day, I asked this question: how many of Guy Lafleur's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench? mrs. marilne gill: Let me shoot the puck back to the Leader of the Government in the House. But when you play a sport, when you are on a team, and when you are in Parliament, you still have to play by the rules. We have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the Bloc Qubcois. It was going very well, but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked. When you are not happy, you do not go off and sulk; you stay at the table and negotiate. When a player decides not to play by the rules, I do not let myself be taken in twice. I prefer to negotiate here, as we should be doing all the time in Parliament, not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word. I would just like the Leader of the Government in the House to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen. I could also ask him whether he found out from the Government of Quebec whether it agreed with the measure. What does she have against the fact that, from now on, people will be able to ask questions about anything, not just about COVID-19? What does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer? What is it that she does not like? the acting chair (mr. First, 37.5hours per week, as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees, is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us. pablo rodriguez: Mr.Chair, it all depends on government decisions, and clearly, we are having discussions with the provinces. However, I still do not understand what she has against having more time than I do to ask questions. bruce stanton): We will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Sweet, the member for Flamborough-Glanbrook, got up and was raising a number of issues about the Hong Kong protests, where 360 people have been arrested. The People's Republic of China, the regime in Beijing, and their rubber-stamp parliament, the National People's Congress, are circumventing Hong Kong legislation and the Hong Kong government in putting their own will upon the people of Hong Kong. Chair, I'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that Parliament can actually discuss this crisis, this human rights crisis, as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in Beijing. He may know, and for the benefit of other honourable members, that we're operating in this Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week. Of course, he'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared, so he might want to pursue that opportunity. Minister, I've been informed by some of my colleagues that CRA officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of Parliament to resolve CRA-related issues. Why on earth would CRA direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes? hon. You really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is, although I appreciate that. Also, on your website, it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to Canadians until June 5, and there is no further information about further live service. When will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need? the acting chair (mr. I've talked to my colleagues, and no chair, including the chair of the finance committee, has ever asked me to address a question through the chair. So with the greatest of respect, unless this is in fact Parliament, which I'm told it's not and the Parliament voted that it's not, we really should be able to address the witnesses directly, should we not? the acting chair (mr. This really is a question around the way in which this special committee on COVID-19 has been structured. We're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the House in an order that was passed and adopted on Tuesday of this week, so we're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way, and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon. So I ask you to abide by the rules of the committee, and we'll pursue that. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic COVID-19 period. I must tell you that CRA call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly. marty morantz: Some of my colleagues have spoken to the CRA about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations, citing COVID-19 as a reason. Has the CRA removed these boxes at all locations? Given this, will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free, since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations? hon. At the CRA, we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do. marty morantz: On the subject of paper returns, there have been numerous reportsin fact I asked you on May 10 for a written response at the government operations committee, OGGO, which I have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns. When will Canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I can confirm that the Canada Revenue Agency continues to process paper returns. Because of COVID-19, we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees. The minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head. How many successful prosecutions have there been in Canada for the illegal use of tax havens? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, as we have said, one of our government's priorities was to invest almost $1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion. bruce stanton): That concludes the 13thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Speaker Rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting, which will be next Monday, we'll be watching more carefully the time for members' statements. We ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute, as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute<doc-sep>bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): Honourable members, I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 15thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. I will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up here on either side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. For those joining by video conference, I'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you need to be on the English channel for interpretation, and if you want to speak French, you should do so on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. Over the past few days, we've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border, but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems. They are a result of systems that far too often condone, normalize, perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour. The calls for justice, for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities, because anti-black racism is happening here, everywhere in Canada, every single day. I'm also talking about microaggressions, which many of us may not even see. When it comes to being an ally, I have made serious mistakes in the past, mistakes that I deeply regret and continue to learn from. I want to thank my colleagues, community leaders and fellow Canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power. I'm not perfect, but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing. It's not an excuse to not step up, stand up for each other, be an ally. I know that for so many people listening right now, the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician. I'm not here today to describe a reality I do not know or to speak to a pain I have not felt. Since coming to office, our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism, systemic discrimination and injustice across the country. We have made significant investments to enable the Public Health Agency of Canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma. We have also created the anti-racism secretariat, which has an envelope of $4.6million, to address systemic barriers, such as employment, justice and social participation, that perpetuate injustice. While we've made some progress, there is still so much more to do, because here are the facts in Canada: Anti-black racism is real. Chair, every Canadian who has felt the weight of oppression, every student who has the courage to demand a better future, every person who marches and posts and reads and fights, from Vancouver to Montreal to Halifax, expects more than the status quo. We're ready to work with our opposition colleagues, community leaders and Canadians to make our country a more just and fair place. Racism never has a place in this country, and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast. Over the past week, we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of George Floyd in the United States. No one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed, ignored by other members of law enforcement. No one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin, especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all. Our nation has benefited immensely from great Canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make Canada a better country: Lincoln Alexander, elected as a Conservative in 1968, was the first black member of Parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister; John Ware was born into slavery in South Carolina but, following the American Civil War, was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to Alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province; Josiah Henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in Ontario; and of course, Viola Desmond challenged segregation in Nova Scotia. Black Canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions; they have also represented Canada with excellence and pride on the world stage, like Harry Jerome, who represented Canada in three Olympic Games and won a bronze medal in 1964. He would go on to become a teacher in British Columbia, once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation. Throughout our history, black Canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow Canadians, bravely serving around the world in our armed forces. While there are many things we can point to in our history with pride, that is not to say that we have a perfect record, nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an American problem. Canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that cannot be ignoredsadly, not just in our past. No one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism or extremism of any kind. Millions of people are protesting peacefully across the United States and in Canada, and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence. Chair, that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism and extremism of any kind. We are all created in the image and likeness of God, and because of that, we are all equal. Canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations, Inuit and Mtis people. Waves of newcomers have come to Canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values, democratic institutions, the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights. Everyone comes here because Canada is built on solid values, democratic institutions, and respect for the rule of law, as well as for fundamental, universal human rights. There are those who say that diversity is our strength, and that is true, but it doesn't quite capture the full picture. It is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law, regardless of your race or ethnic background; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people. Together, generations of Canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built Canada to truly the greatest country on earth, the true north strong and free. To ensure that our people remain free, we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms, including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in Canada and around the world. As John Diefenbaker said, I am a Canadian...free to speak without fear, free to worship...in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, free to choose those who shall govern my country. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. At a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who, despite everything, take to the streets to express that outrage, we here in politics will have to be careful, once again, about the words we use. Indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them. Today, our dutyand I would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity, our sadness, our indignation and our anger, but above alland in saying this, I'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in Quebec and the UnitedStatesour friendship. Every time we talk about this, a small part of me surfaces, that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist. It is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history, which in turn shape cultures. Racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others, difference. I am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims. I believe that the Canadian government is not racist, that the Quebec government is not racist, and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either. I believe, however, that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us. It should not denounce individuals, but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them. We don't play politics at the funeral doors: we gather our thoughts, and let indignation and sadness be expressed. I'm proposing a very concrete measure, which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially Haitian, especially black, but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the Quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line. He has the power and the duty to do so, and if he needs Parliament, let's do it tomorrow or right now. In the meantime, our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them. GeorgeFloyd's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard. Anti-black racism isn't only in the UnitedStates; it's here in Canada, too. Systemic racism against blacks, indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well: racial profiling, economic inequality, social inequality, discriminatory hiring, trivialization of violence, excess incarceration, and so on. When the time comes to act, they don't have the courage, they don't have the will to act. When people around the world saw the killing of George Floyd, it left all of us shaken to our core. It was chilling, the casual violence of anti-black racism, the callous taking of another human being's life. This is just as much a Canadian problem as well, and something that continues to exist across our country. Indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in Canada. I think about Stewart Kevin Andrews, a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in Winnipeg. The anger and frustration are about this: How many more people need to die before there's action? How many more speeches will be made? How many more protests need to happen before something is done? How many more times will people plead to breathe? How many more times will they plead to live? What we're talking about is basic human dignity. How many more voices have to ask, demand, plead, beg for basic human dignity? People are angry. Why do they need to keep on asking? Why do black people, why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans? Why? You know, people are done with pretty speeches, particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to. I'm standing in a hall of power, the chamber of the Commons, with a Prime Minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this. The Prime Minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something. We're going to have to come up with those solutions together, but there are certainly some things we do know. Martin Luther King said, True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice. Killer Mike extolled that people should plan, plot, strategize, organize and then mobilize. Cardi B put it this way: Another way for the people to take powerI don't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting. I call on the Prime Minister, in this hall of power: If the Prime Minister believes that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country? If the Prime Minister believes that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies? If the Prime Minister believes, truly believes, that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country? If the Prime Minister truly believes that black lives matter, will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions? Will he commit to ensuring that there's access to education and to health resources? The Prime Minister has the power to do all these things right now. If the Prime Minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter, then similarly the Prime Minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people, the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people. If the Prime Minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter, the Prime Minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court; the Prime Minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. If the Prime Minister believes that indigenous lives matter, he could ensure that there's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now. People are angry because they're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now. I stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the Algonquin peoples, and again to say meegwetch, on a day like this when we're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we cannot tolerate racism, not in this country. One is COVID-19 and the other one we've tolerated far too long, which is race-based hatred, hate speech and anti-black racism. I want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say, Black lives matter. What we are seeing in the murder of George Floyd is exactly as my colleague from the Bloc Qubcois said: George Floyd is not a victim of racism; he is another victim of racism. The first time a black man was killed when his last words were I can't breathe was in 2014, with Eric Garner. Imagine what she's going through, because George Floyd died on video also saying, I can't breathe, and the people who were stopping him from breathing, his killers, are the police. In George Floyd's murder, at least one killer has been charged, but it doesn't do anything to ease the pain, nor, as my friend from the NDP said, does it quench the thirst for justice, because that's what people are crying out for. I had to look it up because I thought, when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck? He was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck, in February. Breonna Taylor of Louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there. What on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again? I looked at a site called Just Security and I thought these words from reporter Mia Bloom, who happens to be Canadian, were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the United States of America, but also in Canada: driving while black, jogging while black, reporting while black, bird watching while black, selling lemonade while black can get you killed. I want to go back to the words reporting while black, because this is something else we've seen in the last four days that we've never seen before, which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police. It seems that, in this place, when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism, we do it in a kind of cycle. We talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis. Just within the last day, the report came down on the killing of Dale Culver in Prince George at the hands of the Prince George RCMP. This indigenous young man was 35 years old, and he was pepper-sprayed until he couldn't breathe. We denounce anti-Semitism when we see anti-Semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an Ottawa rabbi's home. We denounce it, but can we get to the root of it? As the honourable leader of the Conservative Party mentioned, in recent days we're seeing anti-Asian racism on the increase. We have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know, as the Prime Minister said, we're not perfect, but it doesn't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out. I am sitting so close to my friend here, our minister, Ahmed HussenI say your name out loud, but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding, that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they're a little worried when the kids are around. It sounds exactly like what the Prime Minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see. In looking at these things, there is something I want to say, when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder, what we can do about it. We have to speak out and we have to say that the President of the United States is fomenting hatred and violence and it's shameful and shocking that he would grab a Bible, then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a Washington street so that Donald Trump could pose with a Bible in front of an Episcopal church. The Episcopal Bishop of Washington had this to say, because she is a good ally: In no way do we support the President's incendiary response to a wounded, grieving nation. In faithfulness to our Saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love, we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of George Floyd. We must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, the report on which languishes a year later. If we're looking for real action, things we can do in this place, I call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in Canada and identify them for what they are, a terrorist threat in our midst. We must make sure they're not in our police forces, because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun, it's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform. Please, God, we love each other, take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin, and pray for the United States of America. It's a country being ripped apart, and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring. Pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys, the indigenous baby girls and boys, the Asian kids. bruce stanton): We will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes. I'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. It's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year. A recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water. Washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment. This petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of Canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines. Given what we've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in Ontario and Quebec, the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living, not assisted dying. Chair, it's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action. There is a call to respect the Wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle RCMP exclusion zones. I am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the Wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place. I would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the House if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): Mr. Chair, I continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis. Dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the Sunshine Coast community task force to coordinate local government, non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community. Social enterprises banded together to form the Sunshine Coast food service response, which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks. Persephone Brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands. The 101 Brewhouse + Distillery and Bruinwood Distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers. COVID-19, like all crises, has highlighted true leadership in our society, and I am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this. Chair, the Prime Minister and his cabinet have shown they're unwilling to put the protection and safety of Canadians ahead of political interests. Either purposely or because of ignorance, he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence. The Minister of Public Safety said he wouldn't target hunters, but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence. They have ignored our rampant drug crisis, and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes, all while saying they take these issues very seriously. Today they tell us they are banning a new Liberal-invented type of firearm, a military-style assault rifle. The Liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters, farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs, gangs, illegal smuggling and crime. Chair, it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity. On that note, today I wish to recognize the work of the Humber River Hospital in my riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek and to congratulate them on the success of their Humber front-line support fund and PPE drive. Not only have they been on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy, but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond, the Humber River Hospital has raised over $1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment. This will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy. I thank all those brave workers at the hospital, and I thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause. member for AbitibiTmiscamingue, Mr.Lemire, to take the floor. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. For several years, he had been using his fight against cancer, which he led with the help of natural products only, to ensure cancer services and care were improved, particularly in regions far from major centres. Mayor of Preissac, in the RCM of Abitibi, StephanLavoie passed away yesterday. I would like to extend my condolences to his wife, Anabelle, to his entire family and especially to his daughter, Astrid, who is only 20months old. Through his humanism, StephanLavoie was a warrior, a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us. My thoughts also go out to the citizens of Preissac, to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy, and to the leaders of the Abitibi community. In our first conversation, he said to me, and I hope the House will echo it forever, that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): It is with great sadness that I rise today to pay tribute to Tristan Roy, after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago. Born in Saint-Fabien-sur-Mer, Tristan became a pillar of the MontRoyal community in1997 when he bought the old MontRoyal newspaper. When the city's oldest newspaper, the TMR Weekly Post ceased operations, Tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the TMR Poste de Mont-Royal. He created a truly bilingual newspaper, ensuring that TMR residents could receive their news in both French and English. I join Mayor Philippe Roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to Tristan's wife, Anne-Marie, his daughter, Aril, and his son, Lancelot. We all considered Tristan to be a friend, an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): Mr.Chair, if you didn't already know, people from Beauce are proud. There is Marie-PhilipPoulin of Beauceville, who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year, or AntonyAuclair of Notre-Dame-des-Pins. AntonyAuclair said, in a CBC article, that Beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the NFL. There is also GuillaumeCouture, from Sainte-Marie, who made his mother very proud, and everyone from Beauce indirectly, on the program Les Chefs again last night. It is this same pride that I see throughout the region, with companies like Revtech Systmes, in Saint-Joseph-de-Beauce, or PuriHaze, in Sainte-Marie, which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces. There are also local purchasing initiatives such as the #onlaici campaign by the Nouvelle-Beauce chamber of commerce and industry or Achetons beauceron, by the Saint-Georges chamber of commerce. Chair, our government has shown leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic by ensuring that Canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need. The Canada emergency business account and the Canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic. Seniors received top-ups to the OAS and GIS, and families, the child care benefit. All of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of Don Valley East. I want to particularly thank Saravanaa Bhavan and Happy Pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals. Chair, even though this year's festivities for Italian Heritage Month will be done differently, the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country. Virtual events have seen Italian Canadians, through their generosity, raise over $1 million to help Italy during COVID-19. The Italian Canadian story remains one of passion, an adopted homeland filled with hard work, sacrifice and optimism. Chair, as communities begin to ease restrictions, I remain mystified that, according to this government, Parliament is not an essential service. We in the opposition have been long calling for the return of Parliament, which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines. While the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important, it is equally important to bring those voices back to Ottawa to debate, to question and to hold the government to account. The role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight. Chair, I would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of Brampton East. Khalsa Aid has been providing food supplies with the help of Sperenza Banquet Hall, which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of Brampton East. Care4Cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to Good Shepherd Ministries to lessen their load. Navraj Brar at Pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the Peel Regional Police. Aujla Salon and Spa has partnered with GlobalMedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks. I would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers, taxi drivers, grocery store clerks, nurses, doctors, paramedics and countless other front-line heroes. Thank you to everyone in Brampton East who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need. You are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as Canadians when we come together and support each other. bruce stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for WellingtonHalton Hills, Mr. They tried to give the PMO the control over this House in motion 6, and yesterday's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election. Parliament sat through two world wars, the October crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test, but not now. Parliament and this House of Commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now. Chair, these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many Canadians: sickness, losing loved ones, job losses, economic hardships, loneliness and isolation. It is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen Canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope. Mosques, churches, synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities. Whether it's providing meals to the hungry, clothing for the cold, or technology for those who need it most, these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that Canadians are known for. While there are too many groups to mention them all, I want to thank Vikas Sharma and Care4Cause out of Brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the GTA. This group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need. Chair, I rise today in honour of National Indigenous History Month to speak truth about a history of racism in Canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life, freedom, respect and dignity. Even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past April. Canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): Mr.Chair, Canada Post is literally not delivering the goods. But the postal service is an essential service, and even more so today because everything is done online, even local shopping. The current crisis partly explains the congestion, but it is mainly due to the fact that Canada Post forgot to join the 21stcentury. In the immediate term, Canada Post must deal with the delays, and to do so, it needs the help of the Government of Canada. As I said, the postal service is an essential service, and it's time to give it the importance this status imposes. This is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our GDP, our balance of trade, and whose taxes support the social programs Canadians enjoy, $108 billion in GDP, $8 billion per year in government revenues, $77 billion in trade surplus. It is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western Canadians. We're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000, including 11,000 indigenous Canadians. Bad policy cannot permanently erase the work, the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers, and their efforts to continue building a great country. Chair, today I want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at Victoria General Hospital, who are serving patients in our community here in Winnipeg South. Every day, doctors, nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most. Whether it's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using iPads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package, staff at the Vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier. I would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in Winnipeg South that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the Vic. Folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary Canadians, and it is a great honour to represent them. andrew scheer: Mr.Chair, the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, like all Canadians, I am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the Canadian Armed Forces are doing in long-term care facilities in Quebec and Ontario. We will continue to support them, but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities isn't a long-term solution. Chair, now that Bell Canada has decided to partner with Ericsson to deliver its 5G network, the Liberals will undoubtedly ban Huawei, but the Liberal inaction on Huawei is just another example of this government's weak leadership. Instead of deciding for himself a year ago, the Prime Minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him. Why couldn't the Prime Minister have shown some backbone and banned Huawei a year ago? right hon. Chair, our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts, to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community, which has been looking into this issue. We know we need to make sure that Canadian businesses, Canadians and Canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world. andrew scheer: The fact of the matter, Mr Chair, is that it hasn't. The former public safety minister, Ralph Goodale, promised in this House over a year ago that an answer on Huawei would be coming. Here we are, it's June 2, 2020, and they still haven't made a decision. Chair, the President of the Treasury Board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis. She's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. At a time when Canadians are struggling, it is disgusting that the Liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing. Will the Prime Minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank received? right hon. Chair, the mandate of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of Canada's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital. The remuneration range of the former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years. The bank is moving into its next phase of development, now under the leadership of the new board chair, Michael Sabia, and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes. Chair, as I said, the remuneration range of this former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years. In regard to further payments, we do not comment on personal HR and financial information of individuals in government. The Canada Infrastructure Bank was a Liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers. They might try to claim that it's arm's length and that they can't divulge this information, but we know that Minister Champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the Canada Infrastructure Bank's CEO. Chair, five years ago, when we first got elected, we had to turn around the underinvestment that Stephen Harper's Conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country. Even during the depths of the 2008 recession, the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, well before 1867, in what became Quebec, in New Brunswick, in Acadia, in Ontario and in the west, lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of Canada and Quebec. It can therefore be inferred that Canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of Canada. Could the Prime Minister read his answer to this question: who pays for the health transfers to the provinces? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve Canadians. In times of crisis, but also in good times, Canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need. yves-franois blanchet: Let me remind the Prime Minister that all the provinces and Quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable. Who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of Quebec and Canada? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have worked with Quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers. We have made transfers of $500million, that's halfabillion dollars, because of the recent COVID-19 crisis. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, the Conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy, and I congratulate them for that. Who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the Liberal Party of Canada? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, since this crisis began, we have made investments to protect jobs and workers, including accountants, human resources managers and receptionists. We are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now, but some companies are under threat because the Liberal Party is a little richer. Who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender? One company has been awarded a private contract, probably a foreign multinational, probably for 2021, while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in Quebec and in Canada. Who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the Government of Canada's work? right hon. We are in the process of helping workers and helping Canadians by means of measures like the Canada emergency response benefit, the Canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies, We will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together. yves-franois blanchet: Fundamentally, my impression was that, in a crisis, civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions. I see that, in this case, and in all its operations, the Government of Canada takes money, about 20% of which comes from Quebec, and gives it to a private company, possibly a foreign company, so that it can tell us what will happen, although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, Canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy. We are here for workers, we are here for families, we are here for our seniors and for our students. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, as I see it, the Prime Minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers' money, a part of which is going into his party's bank account for the next election. Is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of Quebec, a role that is currently protected by a crisis? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, all across the country, including in Quebec, people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing. We are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent. The Prime Minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that Canada is faced with. Will the Prime Minister end racial profiling in Canada against black people once and for all? right hon. Chair, this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism, systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the UN International Decade for People of African Descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone. We have made significant steps forward, but there is so much to do, and I look forward to working with all members in this House to do just that. Chair, our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized Canadians, including indigenous Canadians and black Canadians. We know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people? right hon. Chair, systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister make sure Canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of COVID-19 on racialized people, particularly indigenous and black people? right hon. Chair, not just on COVID-19 but on all ranges of data, we've made investments over the past years to Statistics Canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion. Disaggregated data will help, and we're working with provinces on the COVID-19 data. Will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-incarceration, over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people? right hon. Yes, we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized Canadians are reduced. There are many measures we're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer, to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it. I asked the Prime Minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court, and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice. We have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward. Many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that, and that has delayed the putting out of the report. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare? right hon. Chair, we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water? right hon. Chair, the NDP needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years, and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring. They do not have access to clean drinking water, and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories. It would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there. Chair, we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner, and we'll continue to do that. pierre poilievre: How much does the Government of Canada owe to the People's Republic of China? hon. If the member would like to send my office questions directly, I'd be happy to provide this information. They still haven't provided answers to the questions, in particular the question regarding who owns Canada's foreign-held debt. How much of that debt is owned by lenders from the People's Republic of China? hon. We'll get to it in order, as we work through this crisis, making sure we focus on Canadians first. Chair, we'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office. Chair, moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people, how much would a 1% increase in the effective interest rate on Canada's national debt cost Canadian taxpayers? hon. I'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he'd like to send those directly to my office. Chair, we'll try a different question, then, as we're not getting any answers. Chair, I'd be happy to get this information to the member, but I would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the Government of Canada, we look at the short term, the medium term and the long term. We think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country. Chair, it turns out, according to Department of Finance officials, that less than 3% of Canada's recently added debt since March is for terms of more than five years. Why has this minister made Canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $371.5 billion of new debt he's added in the last two and a half months? hon. Chair, we continue to manage the treasury function of the Government of Canada in a responsible way, making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term, a medium term and a long term, which we've been doing as the Government of Canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well. pierre poilievre: Canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they're looking to get the best rate. How many Canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point? hon. I would make the observation that what we've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support Canadians and support Canadian families by providing them income during a time when they don't have access to income because they're actually at home. We think that has supported them in a very, very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis. pierre poilievre: Unfortunately, we will have a $1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end. How much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by, say, 1%? hon. I think the approach we've taken, with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy, has been particularly critical for enabling Canadians to get through a very challenging time. bruce stanton): The floor goes to the honourable member for Beauce, Mr.Lehoux. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, my question goes to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. Day after day, I speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, we have made commitments to producers all across the country. We have also increased our contribution to various other programs, specifically in the meat sector, for pork or beef producers, and food processors. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, I have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now. We are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60%, even if a province or territory does not participate. Through the AgriRecovery program, we have provided $50million for pork producers and $50million for beef producers. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, when will that transfer be made? Can the minister simply give us a date? That is all we are asking. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I would really like to be able to give a date, but the answer depends on each of the provinces. richard lehoux: However, Mr.Chair, the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds, whether or not the provinces add any to the program. How does the Minister of Agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by July, when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of Ministers of Agriculture to October? We have been meeting by Zoom for some time now. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I meet with my provincial colleagues every week, either by conference call or by Zoom. As for the AgriRecovery program, once again, the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40% or not, in whole or in part. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, if I understand correctly, there will be no changes to the various programs before November. The sectors of agriculture under supply management, like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency, who have been promised compensation for a long time, want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country. Our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm. I am thinking, for example, about the advances that many SMEs and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies. When will I be able to tell my constituents that reliable Internet service will be available in their homes? hon. marie-claude bibeau: I assure you that we recognize the importance of the Internet in rural regions. We are working with our colleagues, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry and the Minister of Rural Economic Development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): We'll now proceed to Mr. Chair, for the Minister of Public Safety, Minister Blair, how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since May 1? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): My understanding is that an order in council was made on May 1, and we have not made any changes to that order in council. bill blair: I suspect the member may be referring to the work that the RCMP has been doing through the Canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed. glen motz: How many .22 calibre rifles, firearms, are on that banned list? hon. The member may be referring to a weapon that the RCMP has identified as using an AR-15 frame, which of course mr. bill blair: That's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby. In fact, there was a weapon called the Blackwater AR-15, which was a real gun that was prohibited, but the toy gun, the airsoft one, was not. Why is the RCMP continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published? hon. Chair, it is a very important that the RCMP, as the agency responsible for administering the Canadian firearms program, continues to do its diligence to keep Canadians safe. glen motz: Why has there been no notice given to firearms owners, retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list? hon. Chair, it is very important that the Canadian firearms program and the RCMP continue to do the important work of ensuring that Canadians are kept safe. glen motz: How many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since May 1? hon. bill blair: Again, I do not have that information and, as the member probably knows, records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted. glen motz: How many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since May 1? Of the firearms that have been transferred, how many now are retroactively prohibited since May 1? hon. Chair, to be very clear, on May 1, by order in council, we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms, all based upon a military design. glen motz: Since that time you have added almost 700 more, and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish. If a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since May 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list, are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution? hon. bill blair: Again, the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction, and that is their decision, not ours. glen motz: The minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure. bill blair: I have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made, Mr. glen motz: Maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering. What does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan? hon. We will, however, be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat Canadians who purchased these firearms fairly. glen motz: You can't buy back something that you never owned in the first place, Mr. If this minister doesn't know the cost, maybe he's as incompetent as our Minister of Finance. I am wondering, Chair, through you, why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table? the chair: I want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the House. I'd just like to advise you and this House that our purpose is to protect the lives of Canadians, and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control. We are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers, only by our interest in keeping Canadians safe. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr. I want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable Canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week's deadline. There are millions of relieved seniors with GIS and parents with the child tax benefit and GST who now know they have a bit of time and protection and aren't to be cut off from their benefits. I'm hoping to go two for two here today, so there's no pressure to the Minister of Public Safety. I certainly support, and I think we support in this chamber, the idea of the extension for travel. However, it's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other, and there are Canadian and American children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other. After stating for months that reunifying families wasn't considered essential travel, I am thankful that he and the Prime Minister have now said that it is. Will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week, which would exempt spouses, children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation, so that we can get people and their families back together? hon. bill blair: I'd like to thank the member for what I think is a very important question and I want to assure him that I have had similar conversations with members of this House from all parties and representing all parts of the country. Because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border, any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners. Some of them, you may be aware, have expressed some concern, and we're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns. At the same time we are working very hard, and I am very hopeful that we'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many Canadians you and everyone else represents. the chair: I want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question, they should speak through the Chair and not directly to the other member. I will just note that the Canadian and American governments have worked with provinces, as we have with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, to repatriate Canadians from around the world. I believe there is a precedent and I believe there is a background there, and I think we can, through an order in council or whatever measure, get people back with their families. Can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating Canadians from other countries? hon. bill blair: Again I thank the member, because this is a very important issue and it's important to us as well. We have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem, because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised. At the same time, I think it's important to work very closely, as we have done, with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised. We are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families, and we the chair: We will go back to Mr. They spend about five months of the year in Texas and five months in Cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year. However, she couldn't come up to Canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place, and it's certainly putting a strain on them. Can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible? The three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited, that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents, and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments, they can do that and can stay with their spouse. bill blair: What I can confirm is that we're working hard to make sure we keep families together. I want to reiterate, because you raise a very important point, that when people cross the border they're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health. If the travel is deemed essential, that is an exception, but if it is not deemed essential, then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days. That's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought. the chair: Before we go to the next line of questioning, I want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other. I therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters, who are doing a really good job. The loss of the Regina International Airport would be devastating, not only to the city of Regina but also to southern Saskatchewan. The Liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals, but here is what it's not telling people: Airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years, so when an airport's revenue goes down to zero, its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero, pandemic or no pandemic. bill blair: The Minister of Transport has been working very closely with airports, large and small, right across the country. We've been in touch with each of the airports, and we've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times. We know that in some circumstances, continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible, but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing. Chair, Canada's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the Liberal government's response has been to defer their lease payments. government's CARES program is providing $10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support American airports. Will the government commit today to saving Canada's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans? hon. Chair, we have worked very hard, and continue to do so, to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country. We know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do. We're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time, because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy. Airports are vital to Canada's economy, providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $13 billion in wages and $7 billion in taxes. However, now Canada's airports are on the brink of collapse, and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90% of their revenue. Last month Joyce Carter, chair of the Canadian Airports Council, called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery. It includes the permanent elimination of ground leases, substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities. Could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the Canadian Airports Council's request? hon. bill blair: I would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve. The Minister of Transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities, large and small, right across this country on how we can continue to support them. There have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take. I believe it is clear that Canadians need our help, and we are there for Canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic. Chair, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Japan have all started free trade negotiations with the United Kingdom. We, of course, are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of Canadian businesses, and I want to assure Canadians that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the United Kingdom. I would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the Liberal Party of Canada. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): On a point of order, Mr.Chair. I am not sure that the number of employees at the Liberal Party, the Bloc Qubcois, or the Conservative Party is relevant to government management. the chair: I am not sure whether that is a point of order, but I will let Mr.Therrien continue. I would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the Liberal Party of Canada. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, I know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers. bill morneau: I do not know how many people work for the Liberal Party, but I can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy. That is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30% or more. alain therrien: They have 157MPs and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy. In an article in La Presse on May25, Liberal Party spokesman Braeden Caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program. bill morneau: I am very focused on our concern, which is to protect Canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30% or more. How many employees in the Liberal Party of Canada are threatened by the pandemic? You should know; it's your party. We want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic. alain therrien: I would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign. I would like to know how much taxpayers' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the Liberal Party of Canada. bill morneau: The emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75% of the income that employees were earning before the crisis, to a maximum of $847. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, since I am not getting an answer, let me share with you the very simple calculation I cobbled together. If we multiply that amount by threethat's three months, since it started on March15we get over $1million. That is the amount they will have put in their pockets, to be used as election loot for the Liberal Party. Given that the Liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy, will their party continue to help itself to the money? hon. the chair: Mr.Therrien, you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds. alain therrien: They have already taken $1million out of the register, so that is settled. First, are they going to pay back that $1million? Second, I hope they will not be taking another $1million by September. bill morneau: We will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis. During the previous Parliament, our government made significant investments in the CBSA and the RCMP, and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities. This is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims' groups, law enforcement and everyday Canadians called on for decades, but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe. Can the minister tell the House and the constituents of NewmarketAurora what further steps our government will take to keep Canadians safe? hon. Chair, I'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for NewmarketAurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community. Chair, building upon historic investments that we made in the last Parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs, we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen Canada's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community, including the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, have said have no place in our communities. We will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border, by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids, families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across Canada. Even during these challenging times, we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks. I have heard from many small business owners in Scarborough, from dentists to small manufacturers, who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by COVID-19. They are interested in how programs like the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business, but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords don't participate. Could the Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success, not just here in Scarborough but across Canada? hon. Chair, I want to thank the member of Parliament for her advocacy for the people of Scarborough Centre on this really important question. This is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while, at the same time, helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis. We are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times, and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75%. We will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across Canada from coast to coast to coast. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): The $4-billion Canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. It's supposed to provide up to $2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent. We know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black, indigenous and racialized people. We introduced the Canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing, people who are in core housing need, are homeless or at risk of homelessness. We hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: We will go back to Ms. Only one province has signed on, and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented. With so little federal leadership, the Canadian Alliance of Non-Profit Housing Associations has stepped up and done the work for the government. Will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need? hon. Chair, it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership. The Canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy, which will ensure people have access to a safe, affordable place to call home. The fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30% of their income on rent, and they have been hit hard by this pandemic. Aside from going forward with a housing benefit program, will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-COVID stimulus policy? hon. Chair, joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action. This is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need, people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home. We bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing, and the government has yet to provide any funding to them. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): I thank my colleague for the question, and I want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from COVID-19. Of course, we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all Canadians. We put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary, and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food. jenny kwan: No one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families. They don't have access to health care and they don't have a pathway to permanent residence. Will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you're good enough to work, you're good enough to stay? hon. Of course, that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that Canadians have access to healthy, safe and affordable food. We will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety. Chair, fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the COVID-19 crisis, and they deserve the support of all levels of government, including their own MPs. Yesterday the Liberal and NDP MPs banded together to restrict the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months. Conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support Canadians, while the Liberals and NDP refuse to do the work. When will the Prime Minister tell his MPs to get back to work for the Canadians who need their support? hon. Chair, we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work, and that's why committees are meeting regularly. I would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions, not the government. Chair, it took months for DFO to realize that fish passage on the Fraser River was blocked at Big Bar. Now that contract has tripled from $17.6 million to over $52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister's office. Chair, since we found out about the landslide at Big Bar, our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through. We know how critically important the salmon are to the Fraser River, as well as to the indigenous communities along the Fraser. So far, we've made significant progress, but we know there's more work that needs to be done. That's why we'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. Chair, the fisheries minister's mandate letter from November of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species. Canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister, and when they got a response five months later, it was devoid of any help. When will the minister follow her Prime Minister's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species? hon. We're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species. I am committed to making sure that I meet my commitments within my mandate letter, and I will have more to say on that soon. Chair, the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by Minister Blair's order in council continues to grow. Chair, to be very clear, the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat. As law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times, they have no place in our community, and we agree. Chair, I continue to hear from constituents in the North OkanaganShuswap who are unable to access supports under the Canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program. Business owners have also lost employees and can't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit. Chair, we continue to look at the programs we've put out to support Canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact. We've committed to extending the wage subsidy, and of course we're looking at all the measures we've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis. Chair, an April 1 letter confirms that Deloitte Canada has been contracted to help supply PPE. Chair, the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with Deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in China in order to have an A-to-Z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: We will go back to Mr. arnold viersen: Can the minister confirm that this was, indeed, a sole-source contract? hon. Chair, there are a number of goods that need to be procured for Canadian health care professionals to be safe, and that's exactly the chair: We'll go to Mr. Chair, I will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further, fuller response. The contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: We will go back to Mr. arnold viersen: Many of the suppliers that are in contact with Deloitte of Canada are indigenous contractors. Chair, we are in touch with indigenous suppliers, as we are with many suppliers across Canada and internationally. We are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board, and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix. arnold viersen: Many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors. Chair, the honourable member appears to have information regarding Deloitte's certification processes, which would not be outside what the government itself is doing. I encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: Go ahead, Mr. arnold viersen: Does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources? hon. I believe that Canada is in a crisis, and I am making every effort to order PPE as Canadian health care workers require. Chair, we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that Canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers, in terms of products and in terms of countries. Chair, I would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential, because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize The Chair: We go back to Mr. Chair, on Friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted. Have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between Deloitte Canada and PPE suppliers been filled? hon. Deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers, and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Mr.Chair, we have difficulty understanding the government's management of the border. The order between Canada and the United States has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in Canada if they have family here and we accept them. I find it hard to believe that the minister cannot quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now. Chair, I appreciate very much the member's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me. Chair, we're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into Canada, but to do so safely and not put other Canadians at risk. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, letting a spouse come home will not put Canadians at risk. A survey conducted in Canada reveals that a large majority of Canadians do not trust the Chinese communist regime at all and do not want Huawei in Canada. Now that the government no longer has to worry about BCE and Telus, can they say today that no other company is going to use Huawei and that Huawei will be banned from Canada for 5G? hon. pierre paul-hus: Let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that CSIS has confirmed that Huawei is unreliable as far as Canada's security is concerned. The same regime continues to lie to the world about COVID-19, block our exports, and terrorize the citizens of Hong Kong. When will the Prime Minister confirm that he is going to ban Huawei from developing 5G in Canada? It is a simple question. At the same time, the safety and security of Canada's digital environment will be of paramount consideration. We're doing the work required and we're not basing that agenda on some media report, but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account. We are engaged in robust discussions with our Five Eyes partners, including the United States, and all our security agencies. Chair, we'll do the work necessary to the chair: Mr.Paul-Hus has the floor. pierre paul-hus: The minister does not need a sheet of paper, this matter has been clear for a long time. Bell and Telus had each estimated that removing Huawei from their development would cost $1billion. Did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it? Having said that, my next question is more about the theft on May27. About 90,000surgical masks bound for the Quebec City UHC were stolen from the Toronto airport. Has the minister called for an investigation? When are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for Quebec? hon. Our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time, and they're being distributed to provinces, including Quebec. the chair: Mr.Paul-Hus, you have time to ask a 15-second question. The police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent. We understand that in delivering this benefit to a million Canadians to date, we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back, but make no mistake: Canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account, and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed. Chair, there remains a concern across Canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court recently said in an interview that amendments to the Criminal Code could allow this backlog to be addressed. Can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog, and when we can expect to see it addressed? hon. I can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts, who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law. I can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the Chief Justice of Canada, again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee, to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, weeks ago I raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system. The provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed, and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs. We're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces. rob moore: Many owners of small businesses in my riding, and indeed in all of our ridings, are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the Canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account. This is something that we've been calling for over the past several weeks, and businesses cannot wait any longer. Can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure? hon. I want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them. We are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support. I would like to highlight, though, that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support. rob moore: The lack of access to high-speed Internet remains a major issue across my home province of New Brunswick. The lack of progress and transparency on rural Internet is frustrating for residents, for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to COVID. When will a new plan for rural Internet be introduced, and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed? hon. To date, we've set aside investments to connect a million households, and there's more work to be done. We will be announcing our next steps to connect more Canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come. I look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring. rob moore: On the issue of commercial rent, how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time? hon. Chair, as the member knows and would understand, rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction. That said, we've moved forward to try to ensure that there's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both. George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Nicholas Gibbs, Colten Boushie, Tina Fontaine, Alain Magloire and Breonna Taylor were not all born on the same side of the border, but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy: racism. We cannot, here in Canada, think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour. The final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a Canadian genocide. In 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the Toronto police, and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the Montreal police force against black and indigenous people. I am asking the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, as per her mandate, what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions. If the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established, what priorities have been actioned? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): I would like to thank the member for that very important question. I will state that it is essential that we all work together, not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it. This is a resource not only for Canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well, including advancement opportunities. That's exactly why we came out with an open, transparent, merit-based appointment process: so that we can see the country's diversity reflected at the decision-making table. I can assure the member and all Canadians that my eyes are open, my ears are open and I am an ally. I cannot experience what it is to be a black Canadian, but I can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard. Why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still haven't received the payments they are owed? These people deserve justice without any delay, especially in light of COVID-19 and the added pressures facing communities. As you know, because of the exceptional circumstance of COVID-19, the class counsel, with the support of Canada, was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim. Once granted, eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $21,000 over the coming weeks. Eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis. The pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment. The lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in Canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with ALS. Can the Minister of Health commit to taking leadership on this file, removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies, and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered? hon. Of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for ALS to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of Canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all Canadians. Chair, I can't breathe and I'm tired, and today we've heard a lot of progressive words from the Prime Minister, but he hasn't really said anything. If the Prime Minister will not provide leadership in this House, will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism? hon. The open, transparent, merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting Canadians. Chair, will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries? hon. Chair, the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers, because decisions need to be based on science and evidence. It is also not lost on the black community that the former Toronto chief of police, the architect of this country's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding, was made this country's Minister of Public Safety by this Prime Minister. As the tragic consequence of the unlawful, unconstitutional and racist practices in Toronto, black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police. Does the Minister of Public Safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in Canada's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism, and will he act to immediately end it today? hon. I know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions. Chair, racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable, it's in fact unlawful. It's contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and it's contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act. We are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service. matthew green: Nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than I do. Will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police? hon. matthew green: Bill C-51 was introduced by the Conservatives and supported by the Liberals, including this Prime Minister. Each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols, which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling. Given what he has said today in the House, will this Minister of Public Safety work to repeal the changes made under Bill C-51? hon. Chair, I will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful. It's contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms; it is contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act. It cannot ever be tolerated in policing in any place in Canada, but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities, who tell us that this is still their lived experience, so there is a great deal of work left to do. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I will be sharing my time with the honourable member for Joliette. Supplementary unemployment benefits, or SUBs, give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off. A number of companies, including Soprema in Drummond, have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the SUB terms when employment insurance is converted to the CERB. However, surprise, surprise, when the employees applied for the CERB in May, they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of SUBs they have received exceeded $1,000, the CERB income limit. In addition, they must reimburse the CERB because they found that they were not eligible for it. So, what does the Minister of Finance intend to do to correct his error? the chair: We will pause for a second. I had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before I was cut off, and I would appreciate, given the seriousness of the conversation here today, if the honourable Minister of Public Safety will please answer the question: Will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding? the chair: The way I work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less, we go on to the next one, because it's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer. Chair, SUB plans that existed prior to March 15 are very much alive and in place for companies, employers and their employees. The CERB allows employers to top up an employee's wages to the maximum of a $1,000. Chair, in order to deliver this important critical benefit to Canadians, we had to go outside of the EI system. Employers can contribute as much as they want, and they were assured that this would be the case with the CERB. Let me put my question to the Minister of Finance again, in the hope that he will be the one to answer it. As we can all appreciate, delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many Canadians as possible, both those who were EI eligible and those who were outside of EI, resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): Mr.Chair, I will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits. The victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the Canada emergency response benefit, as my colleague just explained. I also have the question my colleague from Drummond asked: why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income? It is simple. Chair, as legislated, we needed to set up a straightforward, simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement. Chair, let me clarify that employees who were covered by a SUB plan prior to March 15 are indeed covered by that plan. We're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit, regardless of whether or not the CERB is in place. Those who accessed EI after March 15 have been streamlined into the CERB process, and their employers can help them with up to $1,000 a month. However, the government says that, after the fact, it changed the rules that had previously applied, and it is no longer honouring its agreement. As I understand it, the government does not want to straighten out the situation, and that is unacceptable. Chair, I want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at Service Canada. We have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the CERB, as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the EI process. As of December 31, 2019, the total number of pending veterans' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. Chair, I thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the Parliament of Canada from my home in Midgell. As I indicated earlier in the House of Commons, I can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of Canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need. brad redekopp: Those 46,000 applications from December of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans. As you understand, with this pandemic there are some difficulties, but we are processing the same number of decisions daily. brad redekopp: On March 10, we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks. Chair, as I indicated, what we're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process, make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically. Some cannot, because we have to make sure that what's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: We will go back to Mr. On March 10, the deputy minister of Veterans Affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated, written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog. Chair, I can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work. My department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country. Chair, I'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to COVID-19, so I wonder if Mr. Chair, I can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared, and prepared properly, for the committee. As I said before, I fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: We'll go back to Mr. brad redekopp: Can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee? hon. I want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: We'll go back to Mr. brad redekopp: If automatic approval is implemented, does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog? hon. Chair, it will remove a number from the backlog, because quite simply, if you're skydiving out of a plane, you're going to have knee problems, and if you're a gunner, you're going to have ear problems. To make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you that, when speaking, you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking. I understand we don't have any ministerial announcements today, so we'll proceed to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, a future problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze, enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly, universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea is to be as concise as possible. The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the ever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of law-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. They're asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. There's been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. That period can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. The petitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended. Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term care facilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have made us stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. We have not been there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. the chair: Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. michael barrett (leedsgrenvillethousand islands and rideau lakes, cpc): During these trying times, the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge. They've made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe. It would be impossible to list everyone who has emerged as a community hero, but I'd like to highlight a few, like Lily, an eight-year-old from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank by building and selling squirrel picnic tables, and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who's making masks for long-term care facilities and selling others in support of the Breast Cancer Action centre. The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some $27,000 in support of charitable groups throughout the region. Who can forget our top-notch health care workers like Hannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID-19 testing centre? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great. Chair, the Indian Act enshrined racism into Canadian law in 1876, and, through residential schools, the child welfare system, our legal system and our police, we criminalized and tore apart indigenous peoples. The deaths of Chantel Moore and Rodney Levi and the assault on Chief Allan Adam are recent examples of systemic racism within the RCMP. Anti-black racism has resulted in more young black men being jailed, children being streamed or excluded from schools and negative police interaction due to profiling. It is now time to reimagine and rework our institutions, starting with our police, to ensure that all Canadians can achieve their truest potential. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. That's why the increase in the old age security benefit and the guaranteed income supplement must be extended beyond the pandemic. In three weeks, our seniors will receive their first cheque, when they should be receiving their second. A date must also be announced for the new horizons for seniors program, which helps several groups develop projects to break the isolation of seniors. In closing, I would like to mention the organization Justice alternative et mdiation that during the pandemic, along with other organizations in Shefford, has set up the project Une histoire pour la tienne, which also serves to mark this day. It's a virtual meeting between young people and seniors, allowing them to exchange some inspiring life experiences. Since age prejudice is very much present, I applaud this project, which aims to make us understand each other better and judge each other less. Chair, in the time of this terrible crisis affecting all Canadians, when we are all thinking about how best to deal with it, let's all think about the people around us. Let's show our representation not only to those in the sector of sanctioned workers, but also to all those Canadians who day by day stand up and make a difference. I want to acknowledge and celebrate all the contributions made by the people of Brampton Centre, all religious institutions, civil society and community organizations like Knights Table in my riding. Chair, whether graduating from elementary school, high school, Georgian College or graduating from colleges or universities across the country, I am proud of the accomplishments of all the graduates across BruceGreyOwen Sound. I would also like to congratulate and thank all the teachers and parents who have adapted to teaching online or from home and who have supported these graduates over the course of their academic careers. I'd like to extend special congratulations to Cameron Lovell, who just graduated from grade eight, as well as to Neebeesh and Neebin Elliott, originally from the Nawash unceded first nation on the Bruce Peninsula, who will be headed to Michigan State University, and to Jared Lumley from Owen Sound, who just graduated from my alma mater, the Royal Military College of Canada. The college motto of Truth, Duty, Valour is something all Canadians should aspire to live by. serge cormier (acadiebathurst, lib.): Today I pay tribute to RichardLosier, an entrepreneur, visionary and builder who died on June9, 2020, surrounded by his family. In1968, he co-founded St.Isidore Asphalte, a company that now has more than 200employees. He was unifying and generous, a philanthropist who cared about young people and never missed an opportunity to improve their lives. I met Mr.Losier when I was 14years old, and I can say that he has been a positive influence in my life. Every time I met him, he gave me a lot of advice and encouragement, which I've never forgotten. I offer my most sincere condolences to his children, Richard Jr., Ronald, Nathalie, Caroline and Stphane, and to his family and friends. julie dabrusin (torontodanforth, lib.): Hello from my community in east end Toronto. People talk about how a city the size of Toronto can be cold, but that's far from the truth in my community. Wong of Earl Grey Senior Public School, who delivered home-baked cookies and handwritten notes to all of his students, or Monsieur Steve, who's offering online French classes, or the teachers of Riverdale Collegiate, who paraded through our streets to celebrate our graduates. Our local Michael Garron Hospital put out a call for community members to sew masks and received over 60,000 masks, including those made by Lisa Tancre of Chartwell Avondale Retirement Residence. Restaurants, even while facing adversity, have been generously donating food, like the members of the Leslieville BIA or Mezes. There are so many more stories of generosity that I could share, but I'm out of time. Chair, on Saturday night, Calgarians, particularly those in the northeast, in my riding of Calgary Skyview, witnessed a devastating storm, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime. Homes, vehicles, community buildings and structures suffered significant damage due to large hail, floods and high winds. My heart aches for those who have been impacted by the storm in an already incredibly difficult time, but we are resilient. We know that in the coming weeks there will be a lot of cleanup required, both to personal property and in the community. I'd like to express my sincere gratitude to the people of West Nippissing who organized Pride activities to celebrate the LGBTQ community in June. I thank the public servants for their dedication to the Nickel Belt community and the Valley East and Rayside-Balfour areas. Chair, when COVID-19 began spreading across Ontario, Markham, like many other communities, was unprepared. When Markham residents heard about these shortages, my office was flooded with calls from people who had PPE and wanted to donate. Since then my office has been able to deliver tens of thousands of PPE supplies to front-line health care workers and five masks to each family in need. This pandemic has shown that no matter what the challenge is, the Markham community will overcome it. As we start to see local businesses reopen, it is important for all of us to remember to follow best practices outlined by local public health. It is important for all of us to respect social distancing, to protect all workers and their families. the chair: Again, my apologies for skipping over there, but now we'll to to Ms. Chair, in commemoration of Italian Heritage Month, I would like to pay tribute to the Colombo Lodge and Italian Cultural Centre in Kamloops, British Columbia. Recently they began Colombo Cares take-home dinners with proceeds distributed to different non-profit organizations throughout the region. Last month they very generously gave away hundreds of dinners to Royal Inland Hospital staff and paramedics for their tireless work throughout the pandemic. In their own words they say, Colombo Lodge is very proud of the Italians that have made Kamloops their home. Community members of Italian ancestrypast and presenthave helped and continue to help Kamloops prosper as a giving, welcoming and inclusive community. People are worried about what will happen when the CERB runs out in two weeks' time, and the coming tourism season looks very grim. The province itself is in serious financial crisis due to the pandemic and the decline in oil prices. The federal government must overhaul and enhance the fiscal stabilization program to help Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and other oil-producing provinces through this crisis. This is a challenge and an opportunity to transition to a sustainable energy future, but it will require significant investment and support by government to keep the industry strong and make this a just transition for workers. marie-hlne gaudreau (laurentideslabelle, bq): Mr.Chair, all 44elected municipal officials in the riding of LaurentidesLabelle and I have sent a letter to the government asking that cellular and high-speed Internet networks be made available to all. The territorial complexity of the Laurentians means that there are areas where the signal is weak, unstable or non-existent. Also, because of the lockdown, Internet failures are being felt, and they prevent distance learning, telemedicine and teleworking, among other things. How can our municipalities develop economically if they can't provide their community with adequate communication tools? We are therefore calling on the government to put the interests of its people first by investing massively right now in the construction of high-speed Internet and cellular infrastructure. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): I rise today to pay tribute to Sir Winston Churchill, the former prime minister of Great Britain and one of the greatest leaders history has ever known. In what can only be called a lifetime of service, Churchill's contributions to the Commonwealth and to the world are without equal. During the Second World War he led the allied forces in Europe against the tyranny and fascism of Adolph Hitler and his Nazi regime. When our world was in its darkest hour, Churchill's leadership was a beacon of hope and freedom. I am reminded of something he once said, All the greatest things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honour, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill himself embodied all of these great things and will forever be a symbol of freedom, democracy and hope. Chair, I would like to add my voice to the recognition and celebration of Pride Month, which is celebrated annually during June. However, I know the ongoing pandemic will not stop us from showing our love and support for the LGBTQ+ community. To celebrate Pride Month this year, my office distributed 3,000 pride maple leaf pins across the country; whoever asked received one. Although the majority was sent to constituents in my riding, over 500 pins were sent to the neighbouring ridings of LanarkFrontenacKingston, LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, and HastingsLennox and Addington. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, I am very pleased to take part in today's meeting of this parliamentary committee. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. I agree with him that Canada and Canadians are doing an excellent and difficult job in the fight against coronavirus. As for the economy, our government is there for Canadians, for workers and for businesses, and it will continue to be. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, Canadians know that the government is there to support them. grard deltell: Canadians and Quebeckers also know that the Government of Quebec will table its economic update this week. members and to Canadians what the government is doing for the economy the chair: We return to Mr.Deltell. Chair, it is a real pleasure for me to explain to the minister and everybody in the House of Commons that today the Saskatchewan government will table its economic update. Chair, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to share with Canadians what our government is doing to support workers, businesses and the economy. We see governments acting correctly for their people, except for the Liberal government, which cannot table an economic update. When will the Liberal government table an economic update, which Canadians would like to see? the chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister. Chair, I am delighted to share with the member opposite and with Canadians what we are doing practically that has meaning for Canadians. Everybody is working hard in Canada, and the business community would like to know where the Liberal government is going. I've spoken about the CEBA, and let me point out that more than $26 billion of support has been given through that essential program. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, this is starting to get interesting; the minister is revealing some of these expenses. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I will continue in French by explaining what our government is doing for Canadians and workers the chair: Mr.Deltell. Chair, this is a little bit concerning for all Canadians, because this government cannot say when they will table the economic update, cannot identify how much money they have spent in the last three months and cannot say what is the deficit of Canada. christine normandin (saint-jean, bq): Mr.Chair, there are times when Quebec and the provinces are not just two solitudes, but they get along and speak as one, such as when the time comes to tell the government to mind its own business. On reading section91 of the Constitution Act, 1982, which sets out the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government, nowhere do I find that the federal government must meddle by attaching conditions to health transfers. Will the government do the only thing within its authority, which is to take the cheque, sign it and put it in the mail? hon. We fully understand the importance of federal support for the provinces, especially in our national fight against the coronavirus. I would also like to point out the importance of the support of the Canadian Armed Forces, who are doing an important and excellent job in Quebec and Ontario today, right now. christine normandin: Mr.Chair, I am glad to see that there is recognition of the importance of transferring this money. My question is whether it can be transferred unconditionally; that's what I'm asking. In the past, we have seen that it takes a long time to negotiate conditions with the federal government. We saw it in the case of the Quebec City tramway, and we are still seeing it now in the case of transfers for housing in Quebec, for which there is no agreement and, therefore, no transfer of money. member said in her first question that the only thing the federal government had to do on health care was to sign the cheques. I can't agree because, today, at this time, at the request of the Premier of Quebec, the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today; they're there to save the lives of seniors the chair: We now return to Ms.Normandin. What I'm saying is that, at present, the provinces are unanimously asking that there be no conditions. This is where there should be negotiations so that we can work, among other things, to send money to people living with disabilities, to make sure we fight CERB fraud and to make sure that court time limits are effective in the current crisis. Can the government focus on the issue in order to respect the provinces and transfer money for health care? hon. member that the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today at the request of the Province of Quebec. member will agree with me that being there for Quebec's seniors, that saving the lives of Quebec's seniors, is much more than simply signing cheques. I think we all should thank these people who are working for Canada, for Quebec, and who are doing an important and excellent job. christine normandin: Mr.Chair, I think the Deputy Prime Minister misunderstood me when I was talking about the importance of acting quickly. Negotiations between the government and the provinces take an awfully long time because the federal government decides to place conditions where there shouldn't be any. Right now, the only important thing is to transfer the money quickly so that it can be used in our hospitals and our long-term care facilities, where the need is desperate. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to point out the extent to which the federal government is there to support the provinces, including Quebec. We have increased funding to the provinces and territories by $500million to help them prepare for COVID-19 outbreaks. This funding is in addition to the $40billion that we already provide annually to the provinces and territories. Chair, I thank the member opposite for the extremely important question, and I'll take this opportunity to acknowledge the work that he has done for many years fighting racism in Canada. Chair, I thank the Deputy Prime Minister very much for the response, but there are some specific actions we need to take. When someone is in need of a wellness check or a mental health check, money, financing and support should go to mental health workers and health care workers, not the police. Chair, the member quite rightly began his questions by speaking about systemic racism against indigenous people in Canada, and I would like to speak about that for a moment. Chair, will the Liberal government commit to a review of the use of force as outlined for the RCMP? Will the Liberals commit to that change? hon. Chair, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety had many conversations last week with the RCMP. Will the Prime Minister or the Liberal government commit to something simple and ensure that at the federal level, racial profiling, street checks and carding are expressly prohibited? hon. Chair, sadly, I can't agree that rooting out systemic racism is going to be simple, but I can agree that racial profiling is absolutely inappropriate. jagmeet singh: Well, I'm going to try to get another commitment from the government, because they don't seem able to commit to something as clear as ending racial profiling. We know that millions of Canadians in a couple of weeks are going to be faced with the reality of their CERB ending. These families are worried about how they're going to put food on the table, because they can't return to a job. Will the Liberal government commit today so that those families will have some concrete support, yes or no? hon. Chair, let me be clear, as I was in my previous answer, that our government clearly is opposed to racial profiling. We know that Canadian workers, Canadian families, continue to need the chair: We'll now pause for a short time to allow staff to change within the safety parameters for the COVID-19 virus, and as we resume, we will go to Ms. Chair, the Prime Minister has mandated his ministers, and I quote, to govern in a positive, open and collaborative way. Opposition parties have little opportunity to hold the ruling party to account, private members' bills cannot be tabled and legislation cannot be debated. Trudeau himself, help us understand how all of this fits into his definition of so-called open government? the honourable pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): Well, Mr. Chair, we're here, right? We're here, and the opposition is asking questions. They have more time than before, so I don't know why they're not happy about it. rachael harder: That's like when I'm asking for a full meal and your handing me a few jellybeans and saying, Why aren't you happy with that? Mr. It's like switching a light on and off when it's convenient for the Prime Minister and for the Liberal Party. Trudeau do the right thing, turn the lights on and get back to work for Canadians? hon. Chair, on this side of the House, we're all actually working very hard and we're answering the questions from the opposition. On the Liberal Party website, under the platform commitment, it says that Parliament works best when its members are free to do what they have been elected to do, and that is be the voice for their communities and hold the government to account. The thing is, I think we've reached a balance whereby MPs can come from different places, mostly around Ottawa, and ask questions; but also we can have colleagues from across the country asking questions. rachael harder: Does the Prime Minister value democracy, or does he still look up to China's basic dictatorship? hon. Chair, we're answering all the questions from the opposition, not only from the people in this room, but we're answering the chair: It's back to Ms. I'd like to know from her why it is not important to her that her colleagues participate directly. Trudeau wrote to his ministers and said to them that they continue to raise the bar on openness, effectiveness and transparency. Trudeau has shut it down and has prevented us from being able to do to the good work that Canadians expect us to do. Chair, do they want to talk about shutting down Parliament? How about the time they prorogued Parliament twicenot only once, but twice? The Conservative government shut down Parliament twice. I want to remind honourable members that questions and answers are being given, and we want to hear both sides. rachael harder: In 2014, the leader of the Liberal Party developed a policy resolution entitled Restoring Trust in Canada's Democracy. At the time, the Prime Minister said, Canadians want their Members of Parliament to be effective voices for their communities in Ottawa, and not merely mouthpieces in their communities for an all-too-powerful Prime Minister. Chair, I'd like to know why my colleague wants to shut down the voices of her colleagues who could not speak and could not participate in this room. Chair, how would we vote on private members' bills, for example? As you know, it is not a government vote or a party vote; it's per row. Chair, through youthat we have electronic voting, yes or no? the chair: We'll go on to Mr. Chair, we know that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has champagne tastes and London flats, but it's his champagne mortgages that Canadians are concerned about. Specifically, why did the minister only disclose the complete extent of his personal debt to the Chinese government on June 4 of this year? hon. Chair, as you know, since the minister entered politics, his two mortgages and other liabilities and assets have been fully disclosed to the Ethics Commissioner and placed on the online public registry. We're in the middle of a pandemic here, trying to help Canadians, and the best they can do is ask questions about the chair: We will go back to Mr. garnett genuis: When the minister owes over a million dollars to the Chinese government, people have a right to ask him questions. I still don't know why they ask the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Where is the minister? Why is he hiding? Why won't he answer questions about his personal debt to the Chinese government? hon. What is the impact on the decision-making? Three-quarters of Canadians don't want Huawei involved in our 5G network. Will the minister put the interests of Canadians ahead of the interests of his creditors and say no to Huawei? hon. We have been absolutely clear with allies and with Canadians that we never have and never will compromise Canadians' national interests. Chair, that is not an answer, and it is completely out of step with what our allies have already recognized. Reports are emerging of multiple deadly viruses exported from Winnipeg's microbiology laboratory to the Wuhan Institute of Virology right before scientists were expelled for policy breaches. In spite of that, scientific co-operation between Canadian institutions and the military-affiliated Wuhan Institute of Virology is continuing. Why hasn't the government put in place new guidelines to prevent the export of sensitive pathogens and information to China? hon. Chair, he's right that in 2019 the National Microbiology Laboratory shared lab samples with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The National Microbiology Laboratory routinely shares samples with other labs to help advance the international community's understanding of viruses and the research that is ongoing around those viruses. There are strict protocols in place for these transfers, and these samples were transported according to Canadian laws and regulations. Chair, I think Canadians would be concerned to hear that it's routine to transport viruses to Chinese military-affiliated labs. When Champagne was the parliamentary secretary for finance, the government decided to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, bankrolling Chinese state-controlled development projects in Asia with weak standards in labour, human rights and environment. Will the minister put Canadian taxpayers ahead of his personal creditors and support a pullout from the Communist Party-controlled development bank? hon. Chair, my colleague is trying to connect the dots, and I don't know exactly where he is going from here, but everything is public. I'm sure this exchange will also be available on Google, and the public can draw their own conclusions. We have failures on 5G, failures when it comes to the transport of deadly viruses and failures when it comes to giving over $400 million to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. It's time for the minister to settle his debt with the Communist government and not settle it on the backs of Canadians. michael barrett: Canada's ambassador to the United Nations sent a letter last week to all member states of the UN promising that Canada would consider providing more funding for UNRRA, the same UNRRA that is a front for Hamas, which allows weapons of terror to be stored in schools and provides textbooks that call for the destruction of Israel. Do these Liberals have no shame when it comes to their quest for a seat on the UN Security Council? hon. More than ever, Canada is playing a positive role by being a champion in diversity and inclusion, supporting the global fight against COVID-19, addressing climate change, leading peace and security efforts and helping the most vulnerable. A seat on the Security Council will allow Canada to be a strong voice for a fairer, more inclusive and prosperous the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, I received a letter from Bob Anderson this week, who's advocating for his neighbours like Jean Grevelding, who owns a cottage at Butternut Bay. Of course, our priority is and always has been and always must be the protection of the health and safety of Canadians. That's why we put in place these restrictions for non-essential travel and have required, through the Public Health Agency of Canada, a 14-day quarantine. I don't know the specifics of the person for whom you advocate, but we want to make sure that if they come into Canada, it is for an essential purpose and that they do it safely and respect the quarantine that has been put in place. michael barrett: With nine branches throughout my riding, the Royal Canadian Legion offers a great deal to veterans and rural communities alike. They have been experiencing hardship and a loss of revenue, to the point where they may be forced to shut their doors. The Zone G2 commander and local mayors such as Roger Haley have reached out to me expressing their dire need. Will the government offer support to Legions across the country so they can continue to carry out their vital work for our veterans? hon. Indeed, we're doing everything we can to make sure that we help the Legions and other groups that do so much to help veterans right across the country. michael barrett: On May 21, the minister stated that her team was working as quickly as it could to fill the gaps in CEBA. It has now been three weeks, and many business owners, such as mortgage broker Corinna Smith-Gatcke, are still left in the lurch amid the delays, which are pushing businesses closer to shutting their doors for good. Those businesses can absolutely have access to the loan at their financial institution this Friday, and I would encourage them to go and see their bank or credit union. I want businesses to know that nothing is more important for us than making sure they get the support they need during this difficult time. michael barrett: The County Road 43 expansion project is critical for my riding and the region as a whole. This project will widen the road, increasing safety for the 18,000 motorists who travel the road every day. It's been 334 days since the provincial and local governments announced funding, but there has been nothing from this Liberal government. Today, there is still nothing, and for the last month the minister's team has not even found the time to respond to my request for an update. We're always happy to work with members of Parliament, but they must also work with provinces and territories so that projects are advanced by them to our office. MacAulay read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes? hon. Wagantall, we'll freeze the time so that there's no extra time taken. MacAulay has read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes. I've done everything and worked with him in order to make sure that we bring the proper compensation to veterans the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. cathay wagantall: As a result of that study, are the financial outcomes Canada seeks to provide for ill and injured veterans now clearly defined within the Department of Veterans Affairs? hon. Chair, as the member would know, I am to bring a report to the veterans affairs committee, and there are a number of things done in order to make sure that report is the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. cathay wagantall: Then I would suggest that we get our committee up and going as it should be. lawrence macaulay: Well, of course, lockdown, but just under $90 million that the government put in supplementary estimates to make sure we address the backlog for Veterans Affairs. cathay wagantall: Minister, are Canadian Armed Forces members provided with a copy of this document? hon. In Ombudsman Dalton's recent report, did any one of these three provide the best compensation in all nine scenarios that were studied? hon. lawrence macaulay: Of course, as she knows, there's been a lot of work done in order to make sure that we provide the proper compensation to veterans. cathay wagantall: In the undisclosed settlement of Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says ...Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. lawrence macaulay: I can assure you that anybody is welcome to enter any discussion on compensation of veterans. We're always open to what we can do in order to make sure that we provide appropriate compensation. I don't think the term would be appropriate, but it would provide some compensation to veterans who truly deserve it. Ms.Larouche, did I understand correctly that the interpretation didn't work for both speakers? ms. andranne larouche: The sound didn't allow the interpreters to do their job. the chair: In that case, I would ask both members to maybe put their mike a little bit close to their mouth. cathay wagantall: On a point of order, quite often while I'm trying to speak, there are lots of other voices in the background. the chair: I would ask everyone to please be on mute, as well as for anyone in the chamber to please refrain from speaking loudly. cathay wagantall: You said next question, so we're not going backwards, Chair? the chair: Did we have an answer from Minister MacAulay? No? We'll go to Minister MacAulay to finish up the answer. Then, because of all of the confusion, we'll start at one minute and 45 seconds when we get going again. cathay wagantall: Should I repeat the question, sir? the chair: Please do. In the undisclosed settlement to Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says, Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. Anybody is quite open to indicate whatever they wish in order to make sure we provide as appropriate a compensation as possible. You can never totally compensate veterans truly for what they deserve, but we want to make sure we provide the best compensation possible. cathay wagantall: If that's the case, is Minister MacAulay aware of the practice of red-flagging veterans' files? hon. cathay wagantall: Since the deputy minister has indicated that he runs the department, will the minister ask him for the names of veterans and the dates and the reasons that they are, or have been, red-flagged by VAC? hon. I will do anything I can to make sure that the veterans the chair: We'll go back to Ms. cathay wagantall: Do the most ill and injured still receive from the pension up to $300,000 less for life? hon. Chair, as you know and as the Prime Minister indicated when the pension for life was put in place, it was stated that if anybody receives lessthe Prime Minister himself indicated it quite clearlythat must be adjusted. cathay wagantall: For veterans in similar circumstances, should the date of their application for compensation be a factor in determining whether they're treated equitably? hon. Retired Major Mark Campbell in my riding of Sturgeon RiverParkland lost both legs in the line of duty in Afghanistan. He is an avid sport shooter, but understandably, due to his disability, he is very limited in the kinds of firearms he can use, and all of these firearms have now been banned under the Liberal OIC. My question to the Minister of Public Safety is this: Did their department do a legal analysis and consider the section 15 charter rights of disabled Canadians not to be discriminated against when they passed their OIC? hon. bill blair: Yes, there was a very thorough analysis done by the justice department to ensure that the prohibitions we put in place were, in fact, charter compliant. We have prohibited them, and we believeand this has been echoed by many people across the countrythat this will make Canadians safer. Chair, is the minister aware that the AR-15 is the most popular sporting rifle in Canada, and is he aware that disabled veterans like Major Mark Campbell are unable to participate in the sport of sport shooting because of his OIC? hon. bill blair: I can assure the member that what I am aware of is that the AR-15 and other weapons like them have been used in mass killings in Canada on many occasions, such as at cole Polytechnique, at Dawson College, again at the Quebec mosque and in Moncton. The AR-15s in particular were also used at the terrible tragedy in places like Sandy Hook, where a bunch of kids were killed, so there is no place for the chair: We will go to Mr. Chair, it has been months since the Liberals shut down this Parliament and months since the Minister of Finance should have presented a budget or at least an economic update to Canadians. Well, that didn't stop Stephen Harper and the Conservatives from tabling a budget in the depth of the last great recession. We're working for Canadians and bringing forward supports to make sure that businesses, workers and Canadians can put food on the table and pay their rent. We will continue to support Canadians, and when we have a clear projection to present, we will do that. Chair, the results are in, and businesses aren't happy with the so-called support programs from these Liberals. When is the government going to recognize that their business support plans have been an absolute failure with only a fraction of the billions promised being accessible to businesses? hon. We had the BCAP, which is critically important to providing liquidity to support the SMEs that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We are helping hard-working Canadians, small businesses and large businesses right across the country, but in particular in our energy sector. He tweeted recently to praise the Alberta Carbon Trunk Line and the North West Redwater Partnership refinery in my riding. Can the minister tell us what, if any, support they have given to the innovative carbon capture and sequestration technology in this country? hon. Chair, we see carbon capture and sequestration as an integral part of lowering emissions, making emissions more competitive and making our oil and gas industry more competitive. dane lloyd: I note that the minister couldn't name a single example of government support for carbon capture, utilization and sequestration technology. We have spent a lot of time talking about the COVID-19 pandemic, but Canadians are living with another horrific reality, that being the intensifying opioid overdose epidemic. Reports indicate that in the past four years, 14,000 Canadians have died, and the numbers during COVID-19 have been skyrocketing, with British Columbia seeing a 39% increase this year alone. When is the government going to take this scourge seriously and take action to save the lives of Canadians? hon. Chair, I share the member's deep sadness about the number of lives we've lost to opioid overdose. Our government has been steadily making it easier for people who live with substance use to access medications to treat substance use, such as prescription Suboxone and methadone. We have made it easier to rapidly establish safe injection sites in communities and have supported community-based projects that work with people who are using substances. We need to understand that this is a complex issue, and we need to support people to get the help they need. carol hughes (algomamanitoulinkapuskasing, ndp)): The hon. louise chabot (thrse-de blainville, bq): MadamChair, I will come back to the bill introduced last week. As parliamentarians, we felt like we were watching a very bad play, as I imagine the public did. However, the government did not see fit to negotiate with the opposition parties, even though it is in a minority position. One of the things we proposed was to split the bill so that we could give this support to people with disabilities, but the Conservatives did not want to do that. We came back and asked for time to negotiate and give support to people with disabilities, but the government defeated the motion. We asked that the House be recalled today so that we could pass this part of the bill concerning support for people with disabilities, but we are still in the dark. We know this pandemic has deeply affected the lives and health of all Canadians and has disproportionately affected Canadians with disabilities in particular. From the very beginning, we've taken a disability-inclusive approach to our emergency response to ensure that Canadians with disabilities get the support they need. That is why we announced a one-time payment of $600 for persons with disabilities to address these expenses. We're confident that this measure, along with other investments, will benefit Canadians with disabilities, and we hope to get the support of the other parties very soon. louise chabot: MadamChair, I remind you that this measure wasn't passed because we weren't allowed to do so. We've tried here, in the House, to provide the means to give that support, so I ask again, can the government be counted on to give a response to people with disabilities? hon. It contained assistance for the disabled, of course, but it also contained assistance for our seasonal workers, as well as a number of other measures that the Bloc Qubcois opposed. They refused to debate and, when the question of splitting the bill came up, the Conservatives refused to do that. This bill proposed changes to the wage subsidy program, it was supposed to make the CERB more flexible, it proposed fines for fraudsters and, since there was a little section about a benefit for the disabled, the government took it for granted that we would support it without any negotiations with the parties. However, we set one very important condition: that the Liberal Party must get its hands out of taxpayers' pockets in terms of the wage subsidy. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, as we listen to the Bloc Qubcois members, we might think that they invented peanut butter and apple pie. This bill contained a number of measures that all Quebeckers and all Canadians needed, but the Bloc Qubcois refused to debate it. No, we did not follow the Bloc Qubcois' example in splitting the bill; we had thought of it a long time previously. louise chabot: We asked on a number of occasions for the House to be able to sit starting today to pass the part of the bill dealing with those with disabilities. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, my colleague knows very well that things are not as simple as that. I hope that, one day, we will be able to pass this bill and be able to provide assistance for those living with disabilities. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. Several measures have been implemented for phasing out coal, making polluters pay, providing climate incentives, investing in green technologies and much more, which all together have created a climate plan that is doing more to cut pollution than any other in Canada's history. One area of particular interest is our government's work to protect 25% of Canada's land and 25% of its oceans by 2025. Could the minister update this House on the new conservation projects announced on June 5, World Environment Day, and on how our government is protecting our environment? hon. seamus o'regan: Madam Chair, protecting nature is an important part of how we will address climate change and the very real challenges it presents. That's why on June 5, World Environment Day, our government announced over 60 conservation projects under development across Canada. They'll conserve Canadian nature and biodiversity and protect species at risk, enhance ecological integrity and connectivity, and enhance the size of Canada's vast network of protected areas. Nearly half of these projects are indigenous-led, with the aim of creating indigenous-protected conserved areas. Madam Chair, projects like these move us closer to our goal of protecting 25% of Canada's lands and oceans by 2025. By working together in partnership with the provinces, territories, municipalities, indigenous peoples and Canadians, together we can protect our natural environment for generations to come. Ratansi, since you have 25 seconds left, we will go to the honourable member for Surrey Centre. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): Madam Chair, there are many small and medium-sized businesses in my riding of Surrey Centre. They saw a decrease in business or needed to close their doors completely in order to adhere to public safety measures to manage the spread of COVID-19. These measures helped keep our most vulnerable citizens safe and ensured that our hospital and health care providers did not become overwhelmed with a sharp spike in cases. Thanks to our government's COVID-19 emergency response, many of these businesses have been able to keep their employees and access important liquidity through the Canada emergency business account, which provides loans to small businesses and non-profits, and the Canada emergency wage subsidy, which is helping businesses to keep and rehire their employees while their revenues are down by providing up to 75% of wages for up to 24 weeks. As we begin to reopen the economy and Canadians across the country return to the job market, those benefits will be even more important to help businesses and industries rehire their staff and make important adjustments to align with public health guidelines to gradually increase their operations. Can the minister please update the committee on how many Canadian businesses have taken advantage of CEBA and CEWS since applications for each have been opened? hon. mary ng: Madam Chair, I want to begin by thanking the member for Surrey Centre for all the work he does to support his constituents and small businesses. Canadians across the country need to know our government has been working tirelessly and will continue to work tirelessly on their behalf. This is why we put in place the important programs to help them get through this crisis during this difficult time, programs such as the wage subsidy program. The wage subsidy has helped these businesses keep their employees on the payroll and are now helping in their rehiring as they slowly and safely restart. There are 348,000 businesses being helped with the wage subsidy program, and this means that 2.6 million workers are being helped. Businesses are also being helped through the interest-free $40,000 loan they can access through CEBA to help stay afloat and pay their expenses during this crisis. I'm pleased to inform this House that to date more than 669,000 the acting chair (mrs. Madam Chair, with so many recent reports and videos of police using force, sometimes deadly force, and violence against indigenous and black people in Canada, I've called for the public safety committee to reconvene. If the members agree, will the minister come to the committee and provide concrete answers as to how the government intends to address racism inherent in Canada's law enforcement, and in particular the RCMP? hon. Madam Chair, indigenous people, black Canadians and other racialized people are far too often experiencing systemic racism and disparate outcomes within the entire criminal justice system. In order to respond appropriately, I think it's necessary to begin by acknowledging the lived experience of people who've known bias and discrimination at the hands of the police and our courts and within our prisons. We remain committed to working with all racialized people and all of the members of this House to ensure that we work toward social justice for all Canadians, and I look forward to discussing the member's motion further with him. jack harris: Will the minister and the government commit to facilitating such a meeting of this committee virtually? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, the decisions of the committee are the committee's, so I'm sure that this will be a discussion within the committee, but if called, I will certainly be pleased to come with my officials to provide the committee with whatever support and information it needs to contribute to this very important discussion. jack harris: In light of what we've seen with Chief Adam in Fort McMurray and the RCMP accepting that the actions were reasonable, will the minister commit to a full review of the use of force by the RCMP, in particular the philosophy, tactics and training that is given to RCMP officers in dealing with the public? hon. bill blair: I thank the member and I want to assure him, first of all, that this is work that is ongoing, not just in the RCMP but throughout the police community. May I also take this opportunity, Madam Chair, to say that I think all police training has to begin with one very important principle, and that's the preservation of all life and the respect for all Canadians. We're committed to continuing to work with indigenous communities, racialized communities and with police services and all participants in the criminal justice system to make sure that it is fair for all Canadians. lindsay mathyssen (londonfanshawe, ndp): Madam Chair, we need more justice for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. This government recognizes that systemic racism exists but refuses to collect race-based data that would allow us to quantify and truly address this injustice. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): Madam Chair, our government agrees that it's important that we collect data, and that's exactly why, in the anti-racism secretariat and the anti-racism strategy, there is a commitment to have money go to Statistics Canada to collect race-based data. lindsay mathyssen: Madam Chair, we know that Statistics Canada will start to collect job numbers based on race. This will allow us to identify systemic racism where it is and where we need to ensure a fair and more equal job market for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. Why is this government refusing to follow suit so we can tackle systemic racism everywhere, in every sector? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for her question. She's absolutely correct in her assessment that we need to collect more data, reliable data, data that will help us deal with some of the challenges we're seeing with systemic discrimination, but, more broadly, we want to make sure that we continue to engage with an anti-racism strategy that will allow us to collect that disaggregated data. That is why we allocated $6.2 million to that initiative through Statistics Canada, but we know we must do more and we will do more. lindsay mathyssen: We know that all people are susceptible to catching COVID-19, but health authorities are clear that parts of cities like Montreal and Toronto have been more impacted than others. For black and racialized people living in these cities, this data is a matter of life and death. Will the government collect and share disaggregated data so we can identify and erase systemic racism, yes or no? hon. bardish chagger: Madam Chair, making decisions based on science and evidence is essential for our government. It is exactly the step we will take moving forward and that's why we are making those investments to ensure that data exists. I look forward to continuing to work not only with all ministers, departments and agencies, but all allies and all parties to get this work done. carol hughes): Mr.Blaney, the honourable member for BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, has the floor. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): Thank you, MadamChair. Last week, my plumber told me that, each time Justin Trudeau comes down the steps to make announcements totalling several billion dollars, he feels like someone is rifling through his pockets. My question is simple and goes to the Minister of Finance: where is this money coming from? hon. steven blaney: The answer I would have liked is simple: we are borrowing the money and we are going to have to pay it back one day. That is another Liberal craze: they borrow money, they make campaign promises, and off they go. Under the Conservative government, the Chantier Davie in Lvis had 1,700workers for the supply ship Asterix. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): MadamChair, we are very proud of the Chantier Davie and we completely understand its role in the system. We are going to establish the process for the polar ice-breaker, which is essential for the work of the Coast Guard in northern communities, and we are going to make sure that the acting chair (mrs. There is money in the Canada summer jobs program: in my constituency alone, $150,000has been approved. What is the minister waiting for in order to confirm those positions? In my constituency, and everywhere else in the country, our young people want to work. What is the government waiting for in order to send some cash to the Canada summer jobs program? hon. We are introducing flexibilities into the system to enable employers to be able to hire summer students. The money is available; where is the announcement? MadamChair, our young people are not the only ones who want to work. Let me use Jessie Gito as an example; he has been working at Plate2000 in Saint-Anselme for years. When the time came to renew his work permit, he found out that he has to have some biometric tests. Is the minister going to allow Jessie Gito and the thousands of other temporary foreign workers who want to work to be able to do so until the government biometric testing centres reopen? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, it is important for the honourable member to recognize that we are in the early recovery stage of the pandemic. We will ensure that we support both our students and our temporary foreign workers to make sure we get the recovery right. We've introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that employers are able to take advantage of the program and give opportunities to young people. Then, when the government's biometric testing centres are open again, he will gladly go to one. Young people want to work in agriculture as well, and the minister has told us that the government wants young people working and that their files will be processed as quickly as possible. She wants to create 700positions and she knows that people can fill in an application on a first-come first-served basis. Of those 700positions, how many have been confirmed to date? The good weather has arrived, the corn is starting to grow, and this is the time when farmers need the young workers. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): MadamChair, the program for young workers in agriculture is open. This is a program that is not only intended to provide summer jobs, but also to interest young people in making a career in agriculture. doug shipley (barriespringwateroro-medonte, cpc): Thank you, Chair. Over the course of the pandemic, has the government been using all avenues possible to source much-needed PPE in Canada? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, we have been very clear that we have a made-in-Canada initiative that has engaged companies across the country. Over 700 companies have retooled and scaled up their operations for personal protective equipment to help front-line health care workers. doug shipley: Madam Chair, I need to ask very quickly which ministry and minister are responsible for the sourcing of PPE in Canada. I work with the Minister of Health and the minister for procurement , and we coordinate with the provinces and territories to make sure there are appropriate levels of PPE to help front-line health care workers and essential workers across the country. For over 37 years, it has provided front-line health care workers with an extensive line of PPE and other essential products required when dealing with respiratory illnesses. Southmedic currently employs over 700 people, and it has been recognized as one of Canada's best-managed companies by Deloitte on numerous occasions. Since the beginning of the pandemic, both I and the member for BarrieInnisfil have been attempting to obtain some assistance for Southmedic from the federal government. I received a letter back from the minister dated May 27 indicating that this issue of Southmedic falls under the mandate of the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. When will the federal government reach out and help this great Canadian company and therefore ensure that all front-line workers will have the proper PPE they require? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for his question. Since then, we've seen over 6,000 companies step up to offer solutions and ideas, and over 700 companies have retooled their efforts. I acknowledge that some companies are still engaging with the government, and we'll continue to explore all possible options to make sure we continue to procure the necessary levels of personal protective equipment to protect Canadians and to protect front-line health care workers. Moving on to a different issue, while walking to my office this morning, I stopped at my local small family-run coffee shop and was discussing the current economic situation with the two owners of the establishment. The only thing keeping them hopeful is that soon the public service will start returning to work, and therefore their business will begin to return. Could the government please give us some indication as to what the plans are for returning the civil service back to work safely, and when? hon. This is a very important topic, but I'd like to take the opportunity first to thank our public servants, who have worked very hard in the last few weeks, both personally and professionally. In fact, today is a wonderful day to say that, because today is the start of National Public Service Week. They've been at work for the last few monthsin different circumstances, but they have been working very hard to deliver the services and the support Canadians need and deserve. carol hughes): Next we'll go to the honourable member for SelkirkInterlakeEastman, Mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I want to thank the great men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces for the fantastic job they're doing in Operation LASER, serving on the front lines battling COVID-19. Can the Minister of National Defence give the House an update on exactly where we are at with the number of Canadian Armed Forces members who have been infected with COVID-19? hon. sajjan (minister of national defence): Madam Chair, I want to echo the member opposite's comments in thanking our Canadian Armed Forces members. Currently, we have 13 active cases in the Canadian Armed Forces, but in the long-term care facilities we currently have 50 cases. james bezan: Through you, Chair, Minister Sajjan, does that number of active cases include the active cases that are in long-term care facilities right now in Operation LASER? hon. sajjan: Madam Chair, as I stated, the 50 cases are strictly from the long-term care facilities. Sajjan say how many of those cases in long-term care facilities are active and how many are recovered? hon. What I can say to break it down further is that in Quebec we currently have 36 and in Ontario we have 14. The President of the Treasury Board has said, The Canadian Armed Forces will be present as long as their presence is needed in Quebec. This contradicts what Prime Minister Trudeau is saying, which is that we have a hard deadline of June 26 for the withdrawal of our troops for Operation LASER. We've been in very extensive discussions with the Province of Quebec, with my counterpart Minister Guilbault, and we are working very diligently to ensure we have a sustained, appropriate response to the request from Quebec for assistance. That response will result in a transition from the currently deployed Canadian Armed Forces to the deployment of paid volunteers, trained personnel who will take on the important role of providing services to those Canadians who need our help in Quebec. The Department of National Defence auditors have called out the Liberal government for mismanagement over the $553-billion investment in our Canadian military through the defence policy. This is a $553-billion investment in our armed forces, and only three people are managing it. Could the minister tell us how that is even possible? Is this the reason that over 100 projects are currently behind schedule? hon. sajjan: Madam Chair, first of all, I want to highlight the unprecedented investment that we're making in defence. When it comes to the management of this, it's conducted by me and the minister of procurement . Are we going to see more cuts because you have been unable to actually roll out these dollars? hon. carol hughes): Before I go to the next speaker, I want to remind members that they are to address their questions and comments directly through the chair. david yurdiga (fort mcmurraycold lake, cpc): Madam Chair, the Canada summer jobs program has many challenges. I've seen many indigenous communities in my riding rejected for funding even though they had received funding in previous years. Here are a few examples of communities that were rejected: Beaver Lake Cree Nation, Buffalo Lake Mtis Settlement and the Mtis Nation of Alberta, Region 1. Could the Prime Minister explain why so many indigenous communities have been denied funding from the Canada summer jobs program? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, we recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in our community across the country every year. We're working very hard to help employers adapt to the realities of the COVID-19 pandemic and are supporting young Canadians as they begin to look for summer employment. We are introducing increased flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth, while also providing more supports to employers that deliver essential services to Canadians. Why are so many indigenous communities left out of the Canada summer jobs program? This is very important to my community and to communities throughout the province. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we, of course, value the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in all communities, including indigenous communities in Canada. I will certainly have an off-line conversation with the honourable member, if he so wishes, about a particular issue, but I can assure him that in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had to assist employers to introduce flexibilities the acting chair (mrs. david yurdiga: Madam Chair, in my riding, the City of Cold Lake has been in dispute with the federal government for many years over payment in lieu of taxes. Could the Minister of Public Services and Procurement give me a rough estimate of when I will receive a response from the minister's office to my first letter, from 2017, and my letters from 2018, 2019 and 2020? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will go to the minister, and we will come back with an answer to his question. david yurdiga: How much longer does the minister intend to perpetuate the ongoing PILT dispute, which is in excess of $11 million, with the City of Cold Lake? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, once again, I can assure the honourable member that I will speak with the minister and get an answer to his question. david yurdiga: Well, do you know what? I've been writing letters to the department for many years. When you say you're going to get back to me, I really have a hard time believing that. Will the minister agree to follow the prior recommendations of the dispute advisory panel that were accepted by the minister? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will check with the minister and that she will return to the member in due course. david yurdiga: Madam Chair, the drug Trikafta has been proven to increase the quality of life for 90% of cystic fibrosis patients. Two weeks ago, my office sent a letter to the Minister of Health about the boy in my riding named Cael, who through the special access program is able to get Trikafta in Canada. I requested that the minister use her powers to fast-track Trikafta for commercial use, but I have yet to receive a response back. patty hajdu: Madam Chair, I'm glad to hear that Cael was able to access Trikafta through the special access program. In fact, that program is very helpful for people who are seeking access to medication that's not currently marketed in Canada. As the member opposite knows, Vertex has not applied to market Trikafta in Canada, but we look forward to their application, and I encourage him to write a letter to the manufacturer to also encourage them. I was very troubled to hear that a CBC radio host in the Yukon felt compelled to resign because, as an indigenous person, she could not speak her truth. While we know the Broadcasting Act states that the Canadian broadcasting system should reflect the linguistic duality and multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of indigenous peoples, it would seem there are some challenges. Therefore, does the Minister of Heritage share the concern of some journalists that problems of systemic racism in Canada are still existing within the institution of the CBC, and will the government now acknowledge the need to recognize the jurisdiction of indigenous governments? hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): Thank you, Madame Chair; and I thank the member for this important question. As stated by the Prime Minister on numerous occasions, our government recognizes that systemic racism exists in Canada, and we have made a commitment to do everything we can to combat it in whichever organization of the Canadian government. I understand these issues to be ones that challenge societal norms, that are not politically expedient to address because they can lose you votes, even though addressing them is morally right and a smart thing to do. In the justice system, examples include mandatory minimum penalties, defunding police, and even investing in restorative justice. Surely now these issues are politically less of a consideration than the tragic reality of even more slain indigenous Canadians at the hands of police, or thousands of indigenous people still incarcerated or living in poverty. Will this government please finally commit to the necessary work originally promised in 2015 and repeal in the justice system the vast majority of mandatory minimum penalties, assuring the necessary discretion for judges, and meaningfully invest in restorative justice measures? hon. david lametti: Madame Chair, I thank the honourable member for her question, as well as for her work as Minister of Justice, and indeed my predecessor. This is a time when we recognize systemic over-incarceration of indigenous peoples, of black peoples, in our criminal justice system. This is a time when we need to look at all potential options to reduce what is a shameful overrepresentation in our criminal justice system. Too often racialized peoples and indigenous peoples have experienced prejudice and systemic discrimination in our justice system, and that has to change. Many of the deaths are related to COVID-19 measures that have prevented people from accessing supervised consumption sites, so they are overdosing alone. While the provinces welcomed the federal backing of safe supply exemption back in March, it is to expire in September of 2020. Will the government provide the necessary supports to the province and help support safe supply initiatives in the provinces? hon. patty hajdu: It's been a pleasure to work with the Province of British Columbia on innovative ways to work on the tragic situation of opioid overdose. I remain committed to working with the province and in fact any province that wants to work towards solutions that treat people who use substances with the dignity they deserve. We're working closely with our partners to make sure that we can prevent more lives from being lost. carol hughes): We will go to the honourable member for South OkanaganWest Kootenay, Mr. richard cannings (south okanaganwest kootenay, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. They've been serving great food for 40 years, but now they're struggling, because they don't qualify for the emergency wage subsidy. The new owner can't use a year-to-year comparison to apply for the wage subsidy because he didn't own the restaurant last spring. He is forced to use receipts from January and February, the darkest doldrums of the restaurant year, to compare with the results from May, traditionally one of their best months. When will the government fix this inequity and let Theo's compete and survive? hon. mona fortier: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency wage subsidy is supporting over 2.5 million workers across the country. To help even more businesses support their workers and rehire people as they reopen, our government is extending the CEWS, and we will continue to extend the CEWS for an additional 12 weeks to August 29 to ensure that Canadian workers continue to have the support they need during these very difficult times. By extending eligibility, our government is ensuring that more Canadian workers in more sectors have the support they need. richard cannings: The owner just wants to be able to apply for the wage subsidy, and right now he cannot, and he will not be able to. Canada's forest sector has been declared essential during this pandemic, but it's been hit hard after a very difficult 2019. Despite soft markets and thousands out of work, government support programs have left many Canadian forest product companies behind. In my riding, the pulp mill in Castlegar is closing for the month of July because local sawmills aren't producing enough wood chips. What is the government going to do to finally support Canadian forestry workers and communities? the acting chair (mrs. carol hughes): The time is almost up, but I will allow for the answer from the honourable minister. In fact, in Quebec, partnering with Les Bois Francs DV Inc., we have widened market access to our products and updated technology systems. In Vancouver we're working with FPInnovations to create the indigenous forest sector technical support program. carol hughes): Now we go to the honourable member for SkeenaBulkley Valley, Mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to pick up where my colleague left off, with B.C.'s forest industry. are multiple rounds of mill shutdowns and start-ups, and in some cases this has made it difficult for forestry workers to qualify for EI. My question to the minister is this: Will the minister work to make the EI program more flexible for forestry workers, similar to what this government has done for oil and gas workers? hon. That has been key in the inactive and orphan well program, which we are working on with the provincial governments of Saskatchewan, British Columbia and Alberta. The focus on workers has assured that success, and we will continue to focus on workers in all the industries, particularly our natural resource industry, as they go through this extraordinarily difficult time. taylor bachrach: Madam Chair, reforestation is a very important part of the forest industry in the riding I represent, and people were keenly interested to hear this government's plan to plant two billion trees in the next 10 years. I'm wondering if the minister could tell us how many trees are going to be planted under this program by the end of this season. We are working with forestry associations, the industry and with individual companies to ensure this tree-planting season will be one of the largest the country has ever seen. rhal fortin (rivire-du-nord, bq): MadamChair, last week, the government introduced BillC-17 and the Minister of Justice sent us briefing notes in which he said that it was important to suspend a number of time limits and to extend others, and that the failure to do so could have important repercussions on Canadians, their families, their situations, their finances and their ability to exercise their rights. We have addressed the mandatory time limits in federal legislation as well as certain time limits that courts may not be able to handle. The minister's briefing notes say that, among other things, when it comes to divorcewhich means children are involved people are waiting on custody rights, child support and visitation rights. The minister pointed out that the national security review would require consultations if no decision is made in the prescribed time frame. rhal fortin: MadamChair, what a coincidence, because I beseech my colleague opposite to debate it with us. Last week, the leader of the Bloc Qubcois asked the Liberal government to debate BillC-17 today. Richard Wagner, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who is hardly a dimwit or greenhorn, told us that the justice system needs to be modernized. As recently as this past Saturday in LaPresse, Justice Wagner said that it is essential that the Criminal Code be amended to address the backlog of court proceedings. When will the Liberal government opposite pull up its socks, do its job, govern the federation, sit down with the opposition and discuss the vital matters in BillC-17? hon. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, if I were my colleague, I would be a little embarrassed, because the bill was sent to the Bloc Qubcois several days in advance. When we asked for the support of the Bloc Qubcois and the other parties to debate itwe were not even asking them to vote in favour of the billthey refused. For example, we asked the Liberals to put the money back into the wage subsidy fund and to commit to dip into it no longer. pablo rodriguez: Can my colleague explain to me what the emergency wage subsidy has to do with a bill about justice? This is an absolutely fundamental piece of legislation. rhal fortin: MadamChair, I would like nothing better than to explain it to him, but I must remind him that he is the leader of the party in power, the party that is supposed to govern the country. I am thinking of families, child support, child custody, labour law disputes in Federal Court, marine transportation, interprovincial transportation, aviation, banks, and those with grievances waiting for a Federal Court ruling. The whole system, the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal, everything is on hold because nobody in the government wants to do their job. However, when we asked the Bloc Qubcois if they wanted to debate the bill, they said no, instead of doing what they usually do and saying yes. When the CERB runs out, many workers in my riding of Essex will not have sufficient hours to collect their EI benefits. Because of the shutdown, a mom-to-be who had just returned to work in January, and several hundred of her fellow employees, may not have the 600 hours required for regular or EI parental benefits. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency response benefit has been providing much-needed help to Canadian workers across the country who have stopped working due to COVID-19. We know that there is still a lot of uncertainty for many Canadian workers, and we know that many will be exhausting their benefits in the weeks to come. We will have more to share soon, as early as this week, on our continuing efforts to support Canadian workers and make sure that help is available during this the acting chair (mrs. We will continue to make sure that we make the necessary investments in the EI delivery system and modernize it to continue to meet the acting chair (mrs. mary ng: Madam Chair, today we are seeing small businesses that have been helped, whether it is getting access to the small business loan, which some are also using in the restart as they are safely restarting, or getting help with their payroll, helping them keep their employees the acting chair (mrs. How will the government incentivize workers to return to their jobs when recalled? the acting chair (mrs. mary ng: The Canada emergency wage subsidy is an excellent program to help those employees stay employed and for those employers who are looking at rehiring them right now during this restart process. chris lewis: Madam Chair, many of my constituents are in a committed cross-border relationship and have not been able to see their partners in quite some time. bill blair: Madam Chair, as we said from the outset, we've implemented restrictions at the U.S. border on non-essential travel with a single purpose in mind: to protect the health and safety of Canadians. As the member is aware, just last week we introduced new measures that allow people in family relationships to stay together as long as they commit to the necessary 14-day period of quarantine. chris lewis: Madam Chair, with regard to child care, as our economy continues to open, parents are facing a stark choice: Who will care for their children? What's the plan to provide access to child care so parents can confidently return to work? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, we are of course committed to continuing to make the record investments that we've been making in child care. We're committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces. It sounds as though this government has a desire to force parents to choose between their job and care for their child

The government, led by Hon. Catherine McKenna, introduced a $33 billion infrastructure program aimed at building modern, public infrastructure to create jobs and enhance Canada's international competitiveness. Collaboration with the Government of Quebec was emphasized, with projects in the member's riding already making a significant impact. The recent change in management at the Canada Infrastructure Bank marked a new phase in its development. However, farmers faced challenges accessing financial aid due to the complexity of the online calculator, even after seeking assistance from accountants. Hon. Bill Blair, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, stressed the importance of prioritizing the health and safety of Canadians. Non-essential travel restrictions and a mandatory 14-day quarantine for those with essential purposes were deemed necessary measures.

What were the reasons behind the decision to allocate $1 million in bonuses to the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank instead of investing in essential infrastructure such as roads, schools, hospitals, and long-term care homes? Additionally, what challenges did Canadian farmers encounter, and what were the minister's views on foreign businessmen in Canada in terms of finance and security?

project manager: I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting , user interface: project manager: This is where we talk about properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching . project manager: So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . we had a couple of changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . we have decided on a leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , . project manager: and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost , user interface: project manager: things like that , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ? marketing: Shall I ? user interface: Yep . Okay so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . the methods we used to decide on current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional our usual market research study with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch , user interface: project manager: It's okay . we decided on the most important aspect i required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . Also with our company being forerunners in putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . so the general findings from that was in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at . marketing: Okay , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , we found from our consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . marketing: Unless anyone has any questions about that ? project manager: I don't think so , not yet . project manager: especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them . this is all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't un unfortunately aren't available . This is the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment . marketing: industrial designer: There's actually no rechargeable option available , so we I saw the the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest , project manager: Wa can you explain that ? industrial designer: people won't it's it's basically like wind-up radio . marketing: project manager: How what kind of how l long can you get out of that , industrial designer: It might project manager: can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or industrial designer: You Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get when when you got T_V_ . project manager: That doesn't count though does it ? marketing: Does does light charge as as sunlight does ? project manager: I thought it was U_V_ like industrial designer: No . marketing: Artificial light ? industrial designer: Is it ? Alright i project manager: Any , any marketing: Has to be solar . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or and dynamo might take more space . industrial designer: Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up . marketing: That's going to project manager: people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people . user interface: marketing: I know , industrial designer: But marketing: different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally . industrial designer: and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway . project manager: but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening . industrial designer: The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches project manager: Yeah I've seen industrial designer: and you d you don't even notice it . the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work . user interface: And are these like what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ? industrial designer: yeah it's it charges into some form of it's a smaller cell which it charges into and the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery , user interface: industrial designer: And that'll that would l would last for well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out . user interface: We c project manager: But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd industrial designer: Yeah and project manager: you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side . industrial designer: Yeah but then again project manager: Is it really gonna be enough ? industrial designer: I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side . industrial designer: And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it project manager: So it's not the draw on it isn't industrial designer: and you put it marketing: . industrial designer: no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be marketing: marketing: Could I just ask referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with standard batteries ? industrial designer: . marketing: could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging industrial designer: Ye yeah I think I th g y you could have a dual power thing marketing: or the two things not compatible ? project manager: Like a dual kind of . industrial designer: but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they because , if you lie on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical . What kind of price are we looking at for industrial designer: They're they're expensive , they don't user interface: It's twelve point f project manager: I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ? industrial designer: Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , but the It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping , project manager: Solar . industrial designer: 'cause if you drop stuff yeah if you if you have y project manager: Well they're not designed industrial designer: the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but if remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so . calculators you don't really throw around a lot whereas remotes you do , project manager: You do get a bit of wear industrial designer: they can t project manager: but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ? industrial designer: Yeah they do , they yeah they've got dual things , but they're the batteries are smaller I think . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day . user interface: A remote control , like , industrial designer: W m yeah user interface: so we have to s look at the life also . industrial designer: so the Yeah the the s if you if you had something du using the standard batteries and the solar charging , I don't think you'd I think the it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in or triple A_s would last . marketing: It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature , industrial designer: Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah . project manager: Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally project manager: Well add it in to think about marketing: right , okay . project manager: because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: we're doing something original and different but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much . project manager: But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: It's not something that's come up in any of our focus groups and market research , project manager: No . industrial designer: my second part of my findings the mo most current remotes use this silicone P_C_B_ board which pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts . project manager: What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of industrial designer: Well well this the thi the thing about is they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one , project manager: industrial designer: if you if you wanted to but the there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit project manager: Okay . industrial designer: so that And then to yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote , project manager: industrial designer: but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up . industrial designer: the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case case housing project manager: industrial designer: and the the main problems with the well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . industrial designer: which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this spongy feel this year , so perhaps some something made of rubber , marketing: . industrial designer: but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ . industrial designer: I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . the problem with the casing is that there's quite there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not because we'd have it in two separate units user interface: Second thing is project manager: Hinged , yeah . user interface: yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever . user interface: So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that . user interface: So is that feature available in like titanium , industrial designer: Yeah I th user interface: or it's like only specific to plastic or industrial designer: . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just marketing: industrial designer: it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is user interface: industrial designer: it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it . marketing: I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over , industrial designer: Rubber , yeah . marketing: that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone . project manager: So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber , marketing: Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah . user interface: Something like project manager: like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off . industrial designer: T marketing: Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to . project manager: Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not . industrial designer: just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen . industrial designer: Now what I was saying before about instead of having you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over if you had them close enough , that would be one option . the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen 'cause one they're incredibly thin and don't take up much space , two they you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch user interface: Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of industrial designer: display . what what user interface: Just what you said I I didn't get the meaning of it completely , you're saying like industrial designer: Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could becau you could fit it user interface: -huh . industrial designer: the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve curved things with it , user interface: Okay . industrial designer: but you can you wouldn't have with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board . industrial designer: With W also with the marketing: I don't s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: You could have a flat screen inside , yeah , marketing: yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside . marketing: Have I misunderstood you ? industrial designer: It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white , marketing: industrial designer: so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ . project manager: I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside . project manager: Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , industrial designer: Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest . project manager: marketing: I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to . industrial designer: Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out project manager: Like one of the palm pop thing . user interface: Absolutely , f for somebody who very often , if he would industrial designer: 'cause I had marketing: Yeah . user interface: a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever . marketing: Yeah just a thought they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a project manager: Okay , we'll talk about that so if you finish your industrial designer: Yeah that's project manager: and we'll come back to that . industrial designer: yeah that that's the end of m my project manager: That's you , right okay . user interface: And just one small question before like you are , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know . industrial designer: you'd you'd actually have two separate you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them , user interface: Okay . marketing: I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in . marketing: If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ? project manager: No . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display th the remote control display thing . project manager: Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ marketing: Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph industrial designer: marketing: it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay . marketing: trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much project manager: . industrial designer: you can you could do it , you could have a 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out , marketing: . industrial designer: but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about marketing: Oh I think forget about the mirror project manager: Okay , okay . First thing is basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white . user interface: Like , some some people have a Here you see this ? This is on a I I I found th that only common feature is the ch channel control and volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all . user interface: Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: and g graphic user interface marketing: Sorry what does that stand for ? project manager: Which means user interface: basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever , marketing: Okay . user interface: which is industrial designer: If you if yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen . user interface: Like you have on a l icons or something y you have is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface . user interface: So basically not point or click Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify . user interface: And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . user interface: So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels . project manager: Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ? user interface: project manager: 'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone . marketing: No you'd hold it you don't if you flip it open then you'd be Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah . That's what I was just saying , industrial designer: Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li user interface: But project manager: and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top user interface: user interface: Okay and you mean to the project manager: so have the the volume and the programme , things like that , user interface: And the lower distance . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it this at a low cost , but for like we had g s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it . user interface: So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here . user interface: Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound marketing: . user interface: and if this can be incorporated this would be more you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also . My personal preferences would be like , as already marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , red chilli marketing: . user interface: tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide industrial designer: Well , yeah we user interface: I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ? user interface: This is central one , the one you project manager: Or is that volume and channel ? user interface: yeah volume and channel . So keep that m that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about the things we've discussed . project manager: that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having industrial designer: . industrial designer: Yeah I think project manager: It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a industrial designer: if Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have project manager: selling point . industrial designer: and also if they've got it if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them , user interface: So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun . project manager: I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one , marketing: . marketing: we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ? user interface: . project manager: Do you want like a back-up ? marketing: No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ? industrial designer: K no the kinetic ones come come with a sort of w watch a battery that goes in a watch . industrial designer: So it's a lot smaller , so it would marketing: Got you on that okay , didn't realise . The buttons what did you give us as our The bare-board L_C_D_ or industrial designer: Yeah the well I think were we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons , user interface: industrial designer: on the on the on on the top one we're gonna project manager: On the top one okay you've got the touch industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay and then industrial designer: On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones . marketing: Sorry could you repeat that last part ? industrial designer: okay on we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons . user interface: For the body design I think plastic , w yeah industrial designer: Plastic , user interface: we could use the body , project manager: For the inside . user interface: for the inside and rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design . marketing: - , user interface: marketing: so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs , user interface: Plast right . and it is just although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed , industrial designer: no . user interface: It's project manager: we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway marketing: Okay . project manager: the fact the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes , marketing: project manager: but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know marketing: The feel . Is that going to be this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research , user interface: I it's different . project manager: It's just different marketing: is that fancy ? project manager: it's just different from everything else and , I'm trying to imagine clean looking houses , marketing: . project manager: so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway , marketing: project manager: or you want something that contrasts as you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and industrial designer: . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I totally agree . marketing: This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more project manager: And you would just have an across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little marketing: Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on , project manager: . project manager: And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes marketing: which is another beauty of it . project manager: y you know , you could just go so far with it , industrial designer: You can you can just marketing: user interface: Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures . project manager: like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever , marketing: project manager: so I think that's quite a flexible thing . user interface: And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case casing the case outside , project manager: Yes . user interface: it should be moulded it with the design in such a way you can change it every time . marketing: for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ? user interface: Fine , we were talking of voice recognition also marketing: . user interface: because that we are not for how to look it remote control if it's lost . user interface: So , are we looking at voice ? marketing: Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost , user interface: Or maybe like William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains . project manager: Have you user interface: sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design . marketing: 'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product project manager: Well they do , marketing: don't they ? project manager: but I think we can you could marketing: Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours . project manager: Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that marketing: Okay . Did we I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ? project manager: Depending on how i industrial designer: Yeah , depending on the expense of it . project manager: we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so industrial designer: And they've got in stock , so yeah . project manager: that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . user interface: Again a questionnaire huh ? project manager: so I think we've probably got it says , closing we have forty minutes marketing: You got to go through . user interface: project manager: It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took <doc-sep>project manager: If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time . project manager: standard chip , 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't gonna be a problem factor . and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . user interface: Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it user interface: I can hold it like project manager: Make sure the camera's user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: and I'll I'll show you the presentation . user interface: so industrial designer: Can I just nick your project manager: Yes , yes you can . user interface: Oh , where are the hinges ? project manager: industrial designer: Okay , so project manager: Right . industrial designer: And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've come up with over there . You able to look ? industrial designer: It's gonna have a a plastic body with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something . industrial designer: which there'd be sort of a wide choice they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that . industrial designer: the wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . industrial designer: and the the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of how do you say , it's yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top user interface: The black and white touch screen wherein people can project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: And working on the inside we've already said d decided on the kinetic batteries , which actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of project manager: So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: we decided that the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something . industrial designer: yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . the standard , there's be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about . industrial designer: it would it would have obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . And because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared sender would be on the on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the we haven't I don't think we actually put it on . It's still pointing , industrial designer: So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ . The top screen , as we said , is would be an inset black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen user interface: This one right here . industrial designer: which yeah would have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and things to that effect . industrial designer: And now we've we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have some some kind of sort of bezzled logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top . user interface: Which is project manager: But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product industrial designer: No d not not actually . No , not interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's on the thing . industrial designer: And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics , project manager: Thank you very much . marketing: This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours . marketing: The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ? user interface: Ah , it's perfect . industrial designer: marketing: we're going to look at these crite So user interface: Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market marketing: Yes , user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: we're going to come to w we'll discuss each one project manager: It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who . industrial designer: Yeah , I'd yeah I'd probably put it two yeah , marketing: I'll just go this way . marketing: Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? two and three quarters , it that right . marketing: oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ? user interface: in Yep , I just got marketing: Okay . user interface: marketing: So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered Okay , user interface: two point f marketing: and we're just waiting for your rating project manager: It's just two point five for that one . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ? user interface: industrial designer: marketing: We'll just put almost two , project manager: One point seven f five . marketing: it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here . industrial designer: Yeah , that's marketing: Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ? industrial designer: No , no , the the base colour was white or or like or l sort of a light blue , user interface: White . industrial designer: but the changeable fa faces would allow you to get any basically any one of a number of colours that th it's full sort of customised . user interface: Any marketing: So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do . industrial designer: No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic . marketing: We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_ industrial designer: It's meant to be . project manager: maybe because it's slightl industrial designer: project manager: with the size that we've got it's quite small , industrial designer: project manager: but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much . project manager: So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between . Yeah , I'd I'd f I'd go for a five , actually , marketing: A five , okay . marketing: Twenty one is that twenty one ? user interface: marketing: So that's four point two five . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ? industrial designer: Yeah , it was it was a voice voice recognition , user interface: Voice r recognition . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise . I'd go for a I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or . industrial designer: I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand project manager: A standard . project manager: And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room . industrial designer: I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product , project manager: marketing: So , user interface: industrial designer: but marketing: how do we feel about this ? industrial designer: marketing: We've got our our we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the six criteria there . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ? project manager: I don't think so . industrial designer: W I thin yeah , I think marketing: We happy to go ahead ? project manager: I think we yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ? project manager: Don't think so . user interface: You want me to b unplug that ? industrial designer: user interface: That's all . project manager: Now I presume that the screen will go blank , industrial designer: project manager: that Okay . Right , what's happening with the electronics ? industrial designer: It was a regular chip on print user interface: Chip on print . industrial designer: Oh , no , no , no , the Yeah , it's you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number project manager: Oh , right , industrial designer: of c yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: So , would there be two ? industrial designer: and yeah , just a no , one reg v project manager: One chip . project manager: So what's a single curve then ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w marketing: It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . industrial designer: yeah , I think I think it's user interface: Single-cu project manager: So just one double industrial designer: One double-curved . industrial designer: no , 'cause one yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's marketing: The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . user interface: No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing , project manager: user interface: we can put point five . project manager: Do you think ? user interface: Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . marketing: What does it mean if you put point five for that ? user interface: It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . project manager: we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ? industrial designer: No , no , that's it's as an extra . industrial designer: So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get . marketing: But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ? industrial designer: marketing: There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ? project manager: Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half . project manager: Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway . Okay , special colour , do we need that ? marketing: Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours . project manager: Buttons industrial designer: And buttons marketing: S user interface: I think we could change the battery also . marketing: Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ? project manager: Has that not gone up ? industrial designer: Well yes . marketing: So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though , marketing: Is there anything on the menu project manager: I think marketing: No . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ? user interface: And going to a regular bat Yeah . The biggest one would be taking away if you took away user interface: What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery . user interface: But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi marketing: And people are used to buying batteries , industrial designer: If if you take away the voice , marketing: they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control . industrial designer: I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it . marketing: Should we see what difference it makes ? project manager: Where's the industrial designer: Yeah i yeah . project manager: where's the voice recognition ? industrial designer: No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker . We can do it some other way , user interface: project manager: we can do it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version . industrial designer: But they but in I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product . marketing: But we're still working to head o project manager: So should we just change the design specification then ? user interface: Make it costly . If we if we're working to head office specifications as this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings . industrial designer: We c we could s marketing: But we need to work to that specification to start with . industrial designer: Yeah , we could say marketing: And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers project manager: Okay , we can make the price fit , industrial designer: Yeah , I s project manager: and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this , industrial designer: And then say we recommend marketing: . project manager: Right , okay , so marketing: So if we take voice recognition out industrial designer: That'll do it . industrial designer: Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ? user interface: Two five . project manager: Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five , marketing: Right . Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ? user interface: It's twelve point five maybe , then . So half of the price would be project manager: I think the agenda one was where the price was , wasn't it ? No . project manager: is that got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: 'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah . user interface: Except voice recognition , everything is project manager: Right , so we've done that . project manager: Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't didn't feel able to make . project manager: in the sense that did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like autonomy ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'd say , as a team . marketing: And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary . How did you find it ? industrial designer: Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good . industrial designer: I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different , project manager: Yeah . project manager: I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down , user interface: Yeah . project manager: you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . marketing: user interface: I think that was the best part project manager: I'm still not caught up . user interface: of the industrial designer: project manager: But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: Discuss which ones marketing: How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: Could it've been better , was it adequate ? industrial designer: Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more . project manager: Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general , marketing: It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in , project manager: rather than industrial designer: Yeah . Well user interface: Yeah , it's project manager: they have to come from somewhere , don't they ? marketing: Absolutely , yeah . user interface: The thing is project manager: And as sh as w sorry , user interface: Yep , sorry , project manager: you go . project manager: as was shown by your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly . project manager: they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about , marketing: They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit . industrial designer: because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ . project manager: But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you , industrial designer: No . project manager: they could even go into you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being a plastic was being made for you . user interface: Surprising to me is like people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that . Like Sarah was telling , everything's marketing: I think it's really good that this has been very market research based , user interface: Right . marketing: because just going back to mobile phones , this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . marketing: I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore project manager: Yeah . marketing: and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based . project manager: And you can't get you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone , marketing: . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: our costs are below budget with recommendations that they the budget be increased , but I think I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ? user interface: industrial designer: Well . project manager: So it looks well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that . project manager: So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at . project manager: But I think but you were saying that that's quite industrial designer: Yeah , I think yeah I don't from the market research . marketing: and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for . Yeah , it was marketing: I think we've done very well to get within budget project manager: . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas project manager: Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it . project manager: Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with everything that I fell behind with , industrial designer: In your project manager: so I'll be delegating in my role as Project Supervisor , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy . industrial designer: Was that not the questionnaire for the how you felt you'd done in your thing ? marketing: Oh , right . marketing: But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ? industrial designer: Yeah , the the s marketing: Yeah

The Industrial Designer proposed that it would be more cost-effective to use existing parts in stock for re-manufacturing. The Project Manager acknowledged that the other materials used were relatively inexpensive and straightforward. While the LCD display would be costly, using black and white initially and upgrading later would be a more affordable option, as suggested by the User Interface team. Additionally, the Industrial Designer mentioned that replacing the kinetic batteries with standard batteries would require removing the voice recognition feature. In response, the Project Manager compromised by suggesting that the team could provide voice recognition in an upgraded version specifically for the business class, who have higher office specifications.

What are the cost-cutting measures when implementing the speech recognition feature and what is the conclusion regarding its impact on cost calculation and budget issues?

First we need to determine the user requirements and the question that we can ask ourselves is what needs and desires are to be fulfilled by this remote control . And then we're going to determine the technical functions , what is the effect of the apparatus , what actually is it supposed to do , what do people pick up the remote and use it for . And then lastly we're going to determine its working design , how exactly will it perform its functions , that's the whole technical side of 'Kay I'll just give you a minute , 'cause it looks like you're making some notes . user interface: project manager: So what I wanna do right now is hear from all three of you , on your research that you just did . do you have a PowerPoint or no ? user interface: Yeah , it's in the should be in the m Project . marketing: Do you want us to do our PowerPoints now or user interface: You know you could you could do it yourself actually . well , the function of a remote control , as what we've been informed , is basically to send messages to the television set , for example , switch it on , switch it off , go to this channel , go to channel nine , turn the volume up , etcetera . some of the considerations is just for example the what it needs to include it's the numbers , you know , zero to nine , so you can move to a channel , the power button on slash off , the channel going up and down , volume going up and down , and then mute , a mute function . And then functions for V_H_S_ , D_V_D_ , for example , play , rewind , fast-forward , stop , pause , enter . And then other menus for D_V_ as well as T_V_ , whether that means like we can go and decide the brightness of the screen , things like that , all the more complicated functions of menus . project manager: user interface: And we can decide if that's what we want , if we want to include that on the remote , if that's something that would stay on the T_V_ itself , for example . and you can see on the left , it's got a lot more buttons , project manager: user interface: and I don't know if you can read it , but it says , step , go to , freeze , slow , repeat , program , mute , and so those are some of the buttons and so it gives you an idea of s one example . And then on the right , it's a lot more simpler , it's got volume , it's got the play the like circle set , which is play , rewind , but it's also what is fast-forward is also like next on a menu . user interface: And you have a mute button and then the numbers and the eject , and the power button . user interface: And then lastly , it's just the questions that we want to consider like what functions do we want it to include , and how simple , complex it should be ? And what functions it needs to complete . , what are needed to complete insulation process , 'cause , you know , that's something that also has to be considered and it's gonna be hopefully a one-time thing , when you set it up it should be set to go , but we have to include the functions that can allow it to set up i in the first place . Who would like to follow that one up ? Now , that we've discussed marketing: I can go . marketing: Yes , okay so we tested a hundred subjects in our lab , and we just we watched them and we also made them fill out a questionnaire , and we found that the users are not typically happy with current remote controls . Eighty percent want they've are willing to spend more , which is good news for us if we make it look fancier , and basically w we just need something that really there's some other points up there , but they it needs to be snazzy and it but yet simple . So user interface: And that meaning what ? marketing: Like They like I guess use the buttons a lot . project manager: What do you mean by the current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user , like they have to press the buttons . marketing: whereas like the engineering she showed that the engineering ones are more complex project manager: Oh , right . marketing: and users don't really need all of the buttons that are contained on there , because they only use ten percent of the buttons really . And so people say that they typically lose it , as you yourself know , because you probably lose your remote control all the time , project manager: . marketing: and they we need something simple , because most people , well thirty four percent say that it's just too much time to learn how to use a new one , and we don't want to go we don't want to vary too far from the normal standard remote , user interface: S marketing: but they do need to be able to identify it , and R_S_I_ , I'm not very sure what that is . project manager: user interface: Wait , is that like your ergonomics like your hand movements or something ? marketing: Sh project manager: Could be , yeah . industrial designer: Do we really need t to provide more information on what R_S_I_ is ? user interface: Like project manager: Oh . marketing: yeah , that's what my web site said , I user interface: Channel , volume , power . user interface: It's like if you're holding it marketing: I think we're supposed to know it as remote control experts . marketing: But also s so the channel , the volume and the power buttons are the most important on our company website you can find like the specific statistics concerning to how much each button is used , but those are the definitely the top ones . And so personally I think that we need a modern eye-catching design , but it it really needs to be simple . So saying from y your slide , your presentation , the engineering versus the user-specified remotes , I think that we should go with something that's more user-friendly . marketing: Where the engineering ones , the boxes , tend to make it look more complicated than it really is . the functionality of the product really needs to be considered as to like what type of buttons do we really need on it . And it needs to be open to a wide range of consumers , so even though we need a small number of buttons , we also need to take in like are most people going to be using it for a D_V_D_ player , a TiVo , what what exactly are we using it for , as well as the age range . user interface: marketing: And also we found our team found that speech recognition is it's like an up-and-coming thing they really consumers are really interested in it , and since our findings found that people are willing to pay more money for a remote for it to be more high-class we could consider it . project manager: And so just to just to clarify by speech recognition you mean they would say , channel five , and the thing would go to channel five ? marketing: I guess so , yeah . marketing: Yeah , I guess we can interpret it like , we can just try out different types of speech recognition within our remote programme . project manager: Didn't they didn't our rival companies manufacture a remote that you would press the button on the T_V_ and it would the remote would beep so if you have lost it user interface: It's kinda like what the remote phone used to do . Are we ready for our last presentation , Amber ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'm just trying to move it . I didn't get a chance to complete this one , 'cause some of the tools that I was given were frustrating . industrial designer: okay , so method method of our design , I think I just start listing th some of the things that we actually need to put into this . industrial designer: We need a power source , we're gonna need a smart chip if we're gonna make it multi-functional . user interface: marketing: What exactly is a smart chip ? industrial designer: Usually a smart chip is just a chip that's been programmed and designed so that it can complete a fair range of functions . user interface: Well , how much extra would the additional chip be ? Is that gonna push us over our production costs ? industrial designer: I wouldn't think so , 'cause we could probably get it from like , in bulk , from a a newer company . user interface: industrial designer: power source , I figured , batteries , 'cause they're easily available . user interface: industrial designer: a large on-off button , demographically we're moving towards an older generation of people , so a large on-off button would probably be good . industrial designer: Selection button for various entertainment devices , so you want something that will permit you to select the D_V_D_ player or the T_V_ or the stereo system . smart chip that perverts that permits , sorry , universal application again , something that'll allow us to skip over between devices , and that's kinda it . We're gonna have a switch obviously between the power source and the rest of it , and you're gonna need the switch . extra bulb could just be for flashiness , subcomponent which would be like a way of diverting the power to different parts of the the device . the chip and of course the infra-red bulb , so it can communicate with the various devices that it needs to talk to . marketing: So what exactly we are looking at , is this like the front of the remote ? industrial designer: This is just like a rough schematic . project manager: So the red would be the front of the remote though , right ? marketing: Oh okay . user interface: Yeah , that's gonna be what's communicating with the T_V_ , but the other bulb , I think , is good to just to indicate , I'm doing something , it's sort of like a reassurance . project manager: The l the light up kind of industrial designer: Yeah , so you don't have to stare at that infra-red , marketing: Like that we know the battery's working . industrial designer: 'cause you know when the battery starts dying in your remote currently , you have to actually stare at that bulb and go , okay , when I push this button , is it working ? project manager: . project manager: Anything you wanna add for personal preferences though , you f you said already that we needed a large on-off button , you think . Anything else ? industrial designer: I think that that's a good idea , because you know that's one of the most important buttons . user interface: Well , should it be larger buttons in general , you know like the examples that I had , they were swi quite small . So should we try and go for something that has l larger buttons ? marketing: I think we should . I think we should definitely go with buttons that don't look like a normal remote , 'cause most remotes have small square buttons , project manager: . Okay , let's talk about all of our We'll come to decision later about all the components that we need to include , let's wrap up this one , and I'm gonna go back to my PowerPoint , 'cause we need to discuss the new project requirements which you might've already seen flashed up on the screen a bit earlier . And we th need to promote our company more , so we need to somehow include our colour and our company slogan on the remote . project manager: in States we don't have it , but it's like they just have this channel where just has news and weather , kind of sports , user interface: I know . marketing: What is it ? user interface: project manager: it's very bland looking , it's just text on the screen , user interface: Yeah , project manager: not even user interface: it's like black , black and white kind of project manager: Yeah , just black with just text . industrial designer: You can also get the kind of the T_V_ guide so user interface: It'll give you the sports . marketing: Wait , is it like the Weather Channel where it's got like the ticker running on the bottom or something ? project manager: Kind of . project manager: So anyway user interface: You can pick sports , you can pick the news , you entertainment , industrial designer: Seemingly . marketing: So it's like a separate channel from like what you're watching ? project manager: Right . project manager: Nobody needs to go to the teletext channel to check the news , and we have twenty four hour news channels now too , so Those are our new product requirements . industrial designer: So , do we have to include the company colour within that ? project manager: Yes . project manager: What we're going to do right now is come to some decisions , definitive that we can all agree on , about the target group and the functions and just definite things that we need to do and then we'll close up the meeting . So our target group is You mentioned older people ? Would it just be universal for everyone , you think ? user interface: project manager: Because I think even if something has large buttons , as long as they are not childishly large , like even technically user interface: It's gonna make it nicer . they want something user-friendly , so industrial designer: well , even if we kept the regular standard size of remote , if we reduced the buttons down to the ones that people are saying that they use the most often and a couple extra , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: 'cause they're saying they only use ten per cent of them , project manager: Yeah . project manager: Okay , so we want for our target group would we say , young and old , all age ranges , all , not kids obviously , right ? Or kids ? marketing: No , kids need to know how to use a remote , I would think . project manager: Okay , so we're going to go anywhere from kids to adult in the age range marketing: Yeah , I think we need it all . project manager: what about technic technical specifications , like how how technically literate are these people who are going to be using our remote ? industrial designer: marketing: I would say we should say dumber than the average person . industrial designer: how 'bout little to no , because there is no way that you are gonna be able to make it no . And we also need to determine the specific functions of this , just to get it all out on paper . So we said it needs to send messages to the T_V_ , needs to change the channel , turn on and off , just basic simple stuff like this . And we wanna keep I'll make a note here that we wanna keep the number of buttons down . industrial designer: Do we want this thing to be able to be found easily ? user interface: project manager: I think so . user interface: project manager: A finding kind of device or industrial designer: And marketing: I need we we need a like homing device . industrial designer: like if this is gonna get lost underneath the coach , how are we going to accommodate the quick ability to find it ? user interface: Oh right yeah okay . industrial designer: What if we gave it a charger ? And on the charger , just like a phone , like you get a portable phone and it's got a charger , and if you d leave your phone somewhere , you push the button to find it , and it finds th the phone beeps for you . marketing: Do you think people'll really go for that though ? industrial designer: It's useful for the remote phone . project manager: Would that add to our costs at all , I wonder ? marketing: I would think so , because you'd have to develop a base . user interface: Well , if you have the base , you could start putting in a charger and then you have a different kind of battery . Is it going to have a charger , or is it going to be run strictly off batteries ? And we also need to deal with the issue you mentioned of speech recognition , if we want that . user interface: Well , then we could marketing: Do w user interface: If we have the speech recognition then we can start aiming at a like another kind of more handicapped disabled demo demographic . marketing: Well , th there's the people who desire speech recognition , there's the different demog demographics have different desires , I don't know if you guys ge project manager: You could we could hook it up . marketing: It wouldn't copy onto the the thing 'cause it's black , project manager: Oh . marketing: They're the ones that get addicted to soap operas and industrial designer: project manager: And if and if we introduced it when they're this age , they're going to probably always buy a remote that has user interface: Well marketing: just sitcoms and stuff . user interface: Well , then then do you put the voice recognition do you put the r like receiver on the actual television , in the base , or in the actual remote , marketing: So user interface: 'cause then you've already got remote in your hand , why you just gonna speak to the remote , project manager: Right . user interface: whereas if you just speak in general and you don't have to have the remote in your hand and like talk at it . Well , do we wanna include the numbers like zero through nine ? Can we conceive of leaving them out ? project manager: . marketing: Wait , on the remote itself ? project manager: user interface: Yeah , like you have one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , zero . user interface: Well , I don't know , if you can like well project manager: Unless you could say the channel . user interface: I don't know , if there's just a way of leaving them out ? industrial designer: I think people would find that too foreign . project manager: And also remember that in this day in age we need , you know , like a hundred button , too . marketing: You definitely need project manager: I used to have a remote that did not even go up past like fifty . So I couldn't whenever I got cable , I had to get a new T_V_ . I guess , we're gonna discuss the project financing later , making sure that we can fit all of the stuff that we want to on our budget . industrial designer: Yeah , 'cause I don't have any material pricing information available to me at the moment , so project manager: 'Kay . user interface: And how do we marketing: I feel like a ye I feel like a yellow one would be too garish . project manager: We could just have the logo in yellow , user interface: Can't make it entirely project manager: or maybe a yellow light for the keys . If you have this sort of strip kind of down at the bottom the base of it , just like yellow with the R_R_ . So we've simplified , we don't need all those play , fast-forward , rewind , user interface: Right , yeah . project manager: So we've pretty much pared it down to on-off , volume , mute , channel up and down , the numbers Yeah . project manager: can we go back to I'm gonna look really quickly back at those user interface: Two examples . project manager: Which one is yours , technical functions or functional requirement ? user interface: Oh , it's a Yeah . marketing: Yeah , audi audio settings and screen settings , we need those like audio settings mono , stereo , pitch , screen settings like brightness , colour , or do we just want that accessed accessed from the television itself ? project manager: The T_V_ . how often does the average user need to do that kind of stuff ? user interface: Well , the other option is sort of like down at the bottom , like farther away , you just have this sort of box inset where it's like the buttons that you don't use as much , but occasionally you will use . user interface: and so it's like marketing: Yeah , 'cause we need to we definitely need to have buttons for like sub-titles and things like that . It's 'cause the foreign film market is expanding and stuff , and like on television like I know f k living in Los Angeles it's tons of Spanish network television if it has English sub-titles it's definitely helpful . project manager: Couldn't we do that all through one button , something , a menu button , that pops up with a menu on the T_V_ that says , you know , audio , video , whatever , language , user interface: I don't well , I don't know . user interface: Well , that could be No you could just double up with like the channel or the volume buttons . marketing: Such as , yeah , the one the one over there on the left the engineering centred one . project manager: That one ? user interface: So we just have it like add a menu button then for the various things needed , project manager: Right . user interface: including v voice recognition if we have any like settings for voice recognition now project manager: In the middle perhaps . Anybody have anything else they'd like to bring up in this meeting ? industrial designer: I had something , but I forgot . After this meeting we're gonna be sent a questionnaire and summary again which we need to reply to that e-mail . I'm gonna put the minutes I put the minutes for the first meeting already in the project documents folder , if you'd like to review them . The I_D_ is going to work on the components concept , U_I_D_ the user interface concept , and you're going to do some trend watching . And if anybody has anything they would like to add ? No ? Okay , well , this meeting is officially over <doc-sep>project manager: I just forgot their name , so you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . project manager: W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ? user interface: A_ E_ Z_ zee zee project manager: zee . industrial designer: I was a little short on time , project manager: Yeah , me too , so that's not industrial designer: but user interface: Yeah , same here . Which one was mine ? project manager: So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . So we have Oh no , what's that ? So so we have forty minutes for this for this second meeting , and we have to make sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are , user interface: Good . project manager: that we know what we're going to make th what the product is going to like look like . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s presentation ? industrial designer: What ? user interface: left . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the Should be a univ universal remote control No , that's I s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . project manager: so yeah , it still has to be f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . project manager: so So yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for user interface: Which one first ? marketing: Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . project manager: I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me , marketing: You didn't read it ? project manager: I didn't get it anyway . project manager: The last point is quite an interesting marketing: Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . marketing: And maybe our fold open system is is a good one , but I don't think it's project manager: Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top , marketing: reachable . project manager: then you're you're marketing: Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah . That's exactly what we said about maybe a home station for for it to recharge the batteries or something . I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you clap your hands it will beep or something . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c this is so difficult , a difficulty I think . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't We we haven't we mustn't look too much at the last point . they finally had a conclusion that younger people under an age of f forty five are more interested in new features . But they they don't want to have a lot of new features , because they're in their old thinking way . marketing: But y But you but you already said that the company was about forty plus clients ? project manager: People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control , marketing: I I think we can speak , we can skip speech recognition directly , user interface: Yeah . Okay , that's not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . my point is , well , I If we ma make a a remote control for only television , I think it's hard to sell it for twenty five Euros . marketing: Yeah , only only for television On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi we m must made it make it very special . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can make it a special product . marketing: to k to keep it simple when you user interface: But we also have to stand out , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: 'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . project manager: It's on the on the net net thing , user interface: There it is . project manager: So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or user interface: Yeah , I have it on the next page . so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . a way to find out what people use is maybe just to use questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control project manager: Yeah . And I found an Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same pages on text and always have to click the number . user interface: But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your industrial designer: Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . Or not ? project manager: Maybe i maybe it's too complicated , user interface: No y project manager: but not sure . user interface: Well project manager: It's a good idea , but user interface: it's It was just a thought . So I'm , I u I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six . But how can you remember what channel connects to what favourite button ? user interface: Well project manager: user interface: what I was reading on the page . user interface: Well if you said a favourite industrial designer: Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and project manager: mayb for me it's user interface: Well i project manager: If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never . project manager: So user interface: Oh are you ? project manager: And user interface: Okay now , m maybe not . project manager: If I don't do it , maybe old people user interface: No , maybe elderly people . I dunno if that's usable project manager: It's not , it's still not It's not anymore n user interface: when Not anymore for T_V_ . I dunno , miss Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ . Previous I know , but next channel ? user interface: Just the channel What is industrial designer: I don't thi marketing: Forward . industrial designer: But there's also a button to go to the channel you've been before . project manager: Yeah , user interface: I don't have I did project manager: I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . project manager: And how do you want to do it , like if you have a channel above ten ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Normally you can press one , zero or user interface: Yeah , I think f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that project manager: A ten plus or user interface: Yeah , the ten plus button . industrial designer: Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to Because you h have to be fast enough . marketing: Yeah , it's it's no it's not a user interface: So you have like a five seconds period to press those two buttons . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must type one or two . user interface: So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two stripes . user interface: So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that And not for elderly people to look , one two press and aim and industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f marketing: It's only for television now . user interface: so you have industrial designer: I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like m maybe switch channels and volume and k that kind of things , and the menu button . user interface: Yeah , okay , industrial designer: So user interface: but project manager: Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to user interface: Yeah , a mute button . user interface: Yeah well , marketing: user interface: that's that's I think that's the layers that produce . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . It looks very cheap if you make it user interface: Well , maybe you can look at mobile phones . marketing: user interface: Who ? project manager: Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it . basically what happens is you press a button , then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , like a switch . So that's er do two different things project manager: So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ? industrial designer: but Yeah . user interface: j Is industrial designer: I I'm not sure if it's the same thing . user interface: Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ? marketing: Yeah , that's active . project manager: Or just a green one , user interface: So project manager: because it's If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green . project manager: But if you industrial designer: So marketing: I it's it's just the the project manager: Red's l shows up like something's wrong , industrial designer: Two ? project manager: and green is like it's okay , you press the button . user interface: Maybe depends on industrial designer: Ma on on most on most remote controls it's red . industrial designer: I I think the batteries will be a little user interface: Oh , marketing: Empty . Just project manager: No , we have a recharger in it , so user interface: Oh . It's it's not very important , project manager: Green or red or whatever , it is cool . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can o On the Otherwise it won't work . user interface: So we have to make buttons for that as well , to make it industrial designer: No . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to user interface: Okay . user interface: Well , I I use a universal remote control , marketing: I kno user interface: and list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: And the modern one you you you type search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . industrial designer: So it We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . project manager: I just say Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking There's just a short industrial designer: okay . industrial designer: And by d that can be done by just cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time . industrial designer: And What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , is trying to switch off the television . And when it's switched off , you can push a button as it's working now , so And then he saves that setting project manager: Okay . marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't I w I was a little short on time . To flash up your industrial designer: Yeah marketing: if you if you use the buttons , both of them works . Because when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can Basically if the battery is low , it won't work . project manager: Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're sending a signal . project manager: And it's you also know which button you p marketing: But then have to be on the in the all remote control have to be LEDs . But it marketing: Everywhere in the r project manager: But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED . user interface: No I don't think so , but Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else . user interface: 'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our motto also is marketing: Is LEDs beneath the the buttons ? user interface: Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even . industrial designer: Yeah , but like when you push it user interface: Yeah , then then won't Then you won't see it . Or or m maybe on top of the A green light is flashing marketing: Yeah , then industrial designer: or marketing: Yeah . marketing: Maybe project manager: The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ? user interface: Yeah , we're thinking about it . project manager: If you push user interface: on a mobile phone , in the dark project manager: It lights up . user interface: Yeah , if a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's marketing: Okay . user interface: Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use marketing: Yeah , project manager: Yeah , that's a good idea , okay . We'll have enough power project manager: Everything agre industrial designer: to project manager: Everyone agrees with that , or Okay . marketing: Maybe what Paul said , under the on the on the home station , a button to to call your remote control , that it beeps . Because it's i it has to be marketing: twenty five Euros , I think we can make it . Are you almost finished or just industrial designer: Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out . I don't think so , industrial designer: No , project manager: but industrial designer: and I I think a lot of people use teletext , still use . project manager: Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . user interface: That's important I think and marketing: L_C_D_ doesn't work for twelve and a half Euros I think . user interface: And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it . user interface: So industrial designer: ah I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you marketing: Oh , I'm watching the channel one . No , it's not user interface: Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable . And then the usability is not that required , because the Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think . Is that reachable maybe ? industrial designer: I didn't read marketing: That's very That's fancy . But marketing: If it's possible , industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: I don't think it's very expensive actually . project manager: Why should it ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's marketing: if i if i project manager: You only have a microphone in it . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or project manager: Nah , maybe marketing: Ah that's a problem , but industrial designer: And and w Yeah ? marketing: only in English . does your Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever industrial designer: Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but user interface: one to have in channel one ? marketing: No , that Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do do we do it ? user interface: Yeah , marketing: It's more if we if we do it . user interface: Is project manager: It We have short time to to put it on the market , industrial designer: Yeah , I dunno . marketing: Yeah , and and user interface: It's marketing: In indeed the languages are a difficult thing . I don't think it's useful enough to take the effort to design something with speech recognition . industrial designer: Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech speech recognition , you can just throw the marketing: Yeah . user interface: but marketing: Okay , but th that becomes your f because that's very hard for speech recognition . project manager: you can see on the So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do user interface: Yeah , I think so . project manager: If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ? industrial designer: Yeah , that's good . So It lights up when it's dark ? project manager: Yeah , but it's Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same . user interface: I didn't project manager: If you push something , it it all lights up . Yeah yeah , user interface: Yeah , but marketing: it it mustn't work all the time . marketing: So if you user interface: Or maybe when you marketing: No , if you use one button , it must turn on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off . project manager: And do we use a a what's it called ? Like a iMac , if you can look through it . project manager: so y you just make it th through You look through it ? marketing: A see-through . We put in the the simple buttons on the top , user interface: It's the standard project manager: and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there . project manager: Yeah , maybe you have you have to when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one . With just standard buttons we just have so little project manager: O but maybe you can put the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . user interface: No , I don't need don't need teletext options are only four buttons or something . industrial designer: Yeah , but younger people I think more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext . marketing: user interface: How long is lunch break ? project manager: So yeah , you know what you have to do <doc-sep>So basically we've got three things , and we've got forty minutes in which to for this meeting to to discuss the various options . industrial designer: We have a I guess we have a presentation each , 'cause I've got one . so do we want to do the presentation first , or do we want to W I I got or or three things basically , relating to the remote being only for T_V_ . project manager: So in fact it actually f we won't be forestalled in a sense . user interface: What is it ? industrial designer: I'm not quite sure how it user interface: I think you've got to do control F_ eight . user interface: Ah there , marketing: Oh hang on , user interface: it's doing something . I've just got three sections , first is the research I made on the on the remote control itself . And then also the methods in which these components interact together for the remote to actually do what you want it to do and how it connects with the television . industrial designer: We then have the user interface , which is basically the like the the buttons on the actual remote . And then the sender , which is usually , I've found , an infra-red device which sends a signal to the actual television . and the last part is receiver which is important in the system but is not actually part of the remote itself , because that's obviously found in the television . I'm gonna have to actually draw on the board because it was a little tricky on PowerPoint to get this working , so . S do we have a cloth to wipe this down with , or ? Oh I'll j project manager: there's the rubber on the right , I think . Okay , so we start off with a battery suppl no , a power supply which we'd probably get it's probably gonna be the battery . we then have a particular button , which may be that's obviously there's lots and lots of different buttons . that sends after you press that that sends the message to the chip , which then sends It sort of interprets which button you've pressed and then sends the appropriate message to the sender . That's the remote in itself , that's the components of the remote and how they work together . this is the chip itself , which then , and that's the that's the infra-red sender . going on to personal preferences , I've said that battery seems the best option for the actual remote , just because of the size . You don't want a a cable attached to the remote otherwise it's not it's not really a remote . and then the sender , marketing: industrial designer: and infra-red has been used quite successfully . so the m basic method of this is to send a signal from the remote to the television set , so that a desired function is performed . an example of the function could be to change the volume up or down , so obviously you need two different buttons for that . by the look of it they both have kind of play and fast forward , rewind functions , so I think they incorporate a kind of video function which we won't have to worry about . So , it's got nice big buttons , it's got a very limited number of buttons . I like the use of the kind of symbols like the triangles and the squares and the arrows as well as the words on the kind of play functions and all that . user interface: Will you be presenting that in a bit ? project manager: But I got I got an email that basically said to make sure that whatever device we come up with at the end of the day had to incorporate the corporate colour and slogan . So I'm guessing that I notice on the bottom there it's got what's that ? A_P_O_G_E_E_ that might be the corporate colour scheme , although the only the only colour I can see in that is the red . industrial designer: Would you be able to get rid of the the extra buttons here , the the sort of circular section , because that seems to be for a video as well . So we could dispense with that little bit as well and just get it down to just the numbers and the volume . Possibly ? user interface: What do you mean by the circular section ? industrial designer: J yeah yeah yeah j yeah user interface: Like all of that bottom bit ? project manager: industrial designer: just this little bit is that I think that's still a video remote part , user interface: Yeah . project manager: Well b w user interface: how often do you use seven , eight and nine ? I think just one to six and then channel up and down should be enough . project manager: Well th the on the user interface: Like how often do you hit nine ? project manager: Well for for general television purposes obviously you have channels one to five at this point in time , marketing: But but industrial designer: It's just people are used to seeing that , so if we didn't have them then they might think it's project manager: But , well possibly but the the other thing is that with the current expansion of channels in the process of taking place , certainly the button up and down , but how many channels do we have to actual television channels do we have to prepare for ? I would have thought that it's forever expanding and at the moment we've got although you've onl you've got the five standard , you've got the B_B_C_ have come up with a further six industrial designer: project manager: and there's I don't know exactly how many channels there are on when you take into account Sky and various other various others . project manager: So I would've thought that we wouldn't , you know , rather user interface: . project manager: Okay , if the time of flicking from one to other , but presumably it'll take a second user interface: project manager: 'cause you have to be able to stop it . Maybe you could have a fast forward on the on the channels that w and then you could dispense with more otherwise . industrial designer: user interface: some remotes have kind of favourite options where if you always flick from channel one to channel six , if that's a favourite you just like by-pass two to five . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , I s I suppose in a sense you could have if you've got a hundred channels then if you had sort of an easy way of getting rather than having to go one to a hundred , you could go one to one to ten , ten to twenty industrial designer: user interface: . project manager: and then have a second button to get you to the actual channel you want marketing: user interface: But I think a lot of like Cable and Sky and stuff , that would be tuned to one channel , and then you'd have another remote for all of those channels . industrial designer: I suppose with nine you've got the the like the last one which makes the tenth means you it's like multiples you can put them together so you can make any number . industrial designer: So with that we'd kind of by-pass any problems with project manager: Yeah Well that's true , yeah , industrial designer: Yeah . I think that's just for a video , so we wouldn't need any of that at all . industrial designer: So we could get it down to what ? project manager: If it's just for T_V_ , which is what it is at the moment . industrial designer: So we get to How many buttons have we got ? We've just got ten , eleven twelve th We got fourteen that we need . Well we've we've got that it's remote for T_V_ only otherwise project would become too complex with which would endanger the time to market was one of the considerations . project manager: I'm I don't know d did you have that information behind the marketing , marketing: project manager: or was I meant to give you that information ? marketing: I'm not sure . project manager: Right , okay , so basically time to market seems to be important , therefore speed of delivery . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: Okay , so is everyone happy with that ? industrial designer: Ah yes yes , that seems good . industrial designer: marketing: Right , we've done some research into the functional requirements that people want out of their remote control . And first off we should state that th the remote control's for controlling the T_V_ and how do people use it ? We asked them sort of which buttons were useful for them . how d how does a remote control look and feel for them , and what improvements would would they like to remote control . And we did that by sort of giving them a questionnaire that we'd prepared and asking them to fill in the answers . And three quarters of them found that remote controls are ugly and that a sort of even higher proportion would spend more for a sort of s a fancier remote control And that of all the buttons on the remote control , the sort of setting buttons for sort of the picture picture and brightness and the audio settings , they weren't used very often at all . And young people were quite receptive to this , but as soon as we got sort of over about into a thirty five to forty age forty five age group and older , people people weren't quite so keen on speech recognition . There's a lot more th there's a lot lot more older people who didn't know whether they wanted it or not as well . we also asked what frustrated people about remote controls and the number one frustration was that the remote was lost somewhere else in the room and that they couldn't find it . And the second second biggest frustration what that if they got a new remote control , it was difficult to learn all the buttons and all the functions , and to find your way around it . Okay , so My personal preferences from the marketing is that we need to come up with some sort of sleek sort of good looking high high-tech A design which looks high-tech , basically . and that we should come up with fewer buttons than most of the controls on the market , and we should sort of concentrate on the channels and sort of power , and also volume and that sort of thing , as as Louisa said . we could maybe come up with a menu , a sort of a an L_C_D_ menu for other functions on the remote control . and maybe we could think about speech recognition as well , because sort of young people are perhaps the ones that are gonna buy buy our new product if we aim it at sort of you know sort of a high-tech design . And we could maybe think about using speech recogniti recognition as a way to find the remote control if it's lost in a room , rather than sort of having it to speech recognition to change the channels . 'Cause there's a problem with that in that the television makes noise , so it could end up talking to itself and changing its channel . project manager: What was that last wee bit there ? user interface: Do a lot of marketing: about speech recognition ? project manager: Speech recognition , user interface: marketing: Yeah . marketing: Youn young people pref Yeah , they s they said that they'd be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups , people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to , so . industrial designer: No what I maybe think is it seems the technology would be quite advanced for that and they might end up costing more than our twelve fifty budget for for the speech recognition . industrial designer: And possibly the thing about the about the remote being lost we could have You know with your mobile phone , you lose that and you can ring it . Maybe we can have some kind of sensor which is kept somewhere where you can some kind of buzzer system between the two . Yeah , we'd have t that would mean we'd have to put two products together as well , industrial designer: That is true , yes . user interface: There's key rings that you kind of whistle at or clap at , I can't remember , and then they whistle back , or something like that . So industrial designer: So I guess it'd be something we could like attach to the or like the same technology could be put inside the inside the remote . project manager: Well if you're trying to avoid having a second product 'cause obviously you could have a second product that gave you the right pitch which would set the remote off to say here I am sort of thing , you know without sound recognition . I dunno talking about vo obviously if you've got voice recognition then you can do it in that way because it'll recognise the voice and you can give it a command , a set command whatever that happened to be . project manager: But you've then got the point if if you're not going with voice recognition then industrial designer: you could have an option to turn it off . industrial designer: So that would solve the problems with the T_V_ kind of speaking to the remote and changing its own channels . marketing: project manager: So Any sugges Well , any conclusions ? marketing: would it take quite a while to sort of develop the speech recognition software in the remote control ? user interface: project manager: Well if it does then we can't . project manager: because we've got th th three primary requisites from from and email that was sent to me whereby we had The design logo was one , which we've already mentioned . We've got the remote was only for the television and not for because that would make it too complex and we have to get it market quickly . project manager: And the third thing was that teletext as far as the management is concerned , is becoming dated due to the popularity of the internet . project manager: So we're being focused effectively directly at a television and it seems to me that the management is wanting us to go down a narrow path and not opening out . project manager: So anything that is to be added , such as voice recognition et cetera has to be very simple and has to be very quick industrial designer: Has to be simple enough to project manager: because time to market is is critical . S industrial designer: I suppose if we could get something in which was quite quick and simple that would give us an advantage over the other remotes . project manager: Added extras would be nice , but the primary consideration is to get the project finished within this short time window , which effectively now is sort of four hours . d d I think I think first and foremost we've gotta get to the end and then get to the end with added extras if possible . project manager: and how we were planning to proceed so that at the next meeting each person that's got a a a task to do is clear from this meeting what that task is . And then we can report back at the next meeting and say right okay yes , we've achieved this or we haven't achieved this , this is how far we've progressed . project manager: So we have to come effectively to the decision on the remote functions so that you can decide what you're gonna be doing . And if dur between the time of this meeting finishing and the next meeting starting , if you get any additional information that only you have at that point in time you'd think would be relevant to other people in terms of their des decision making process , then we should communicate that as quickly as possible and not wait until the next meeting . project manager: so that rather than coming you know If you get the information just before the next meeting that's fine . Come along with it in the next meeting , we can discuss it then and take whatever action is appropriate . project manager: But if you get it well before the next meeting , let everybody else know 'cause that might have an impact on their on what they come up with effectively at the next meeting . project manager: Right , is there marketing: So do we need to decide on the functions now ? S project manager: I would guess so . user interface: Well I think it'd be really easy and it'd be a big advantage if we did have some sort of kind of whistle back kind of function . marketing: Yeah and Yeah and that was that was the number one sort of frustration that people said , so . user interface: marketing: I don't think there's anything else on the market that does that , so . project manager: I w well i industrial designer: Maybe we should concentrate just on the whistle back function at the moment , project manager: Something simple . if if our primary consideration is to get it there in time , time's short , industrial designer: and if something comes back project manager: you want something to meet the major concerns of the consumer so that we can have that as a selling point for the product , user interface: user interface: And that wouldn't put off the kind of older generation either , 'cause everyone can whistle or clap , and they wouldn't have to be kind of scared of this new technology . project manager: On the basis that if we've got if we're catering to the whole age range , you want something that's easy to do , industrial designer: project manager: now something that doesn't like whis marketing: No not everyone can whistle , can they , though ? project manager: Well I I I don't know . Well If you think that more people can whistle than clap then that's fine , then go for that option , user interface: project manager: but if I would have thought that more people could clap rather than whistle , marketing: No , industrial designer: I'd go more marketing: clapping , I think clapping , industrial designer: Yeah , f more for clap . user interface: 'Kay we've already decided that we don't need a teletext button , haven't we ? project manager: . Ef effectively that's what the that's what they're saying , user interface: Is that one of the project manager: that if if people are now using the internet then you don't need teletext , user interface: . industrial designer: and then the the little digit next to it which kind of enabled you to put them together . I think nowadays you can just get ones where it gives you a sort of a second or two to press another number , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Okay , ten numbers user interface: industrial designer: and then some kind of device to allow marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Did we decide anything about the other functions ? As in setting the audio and tuning it and stuff like that ? You had an had an idea about the menu ? marketing: we could possibly put an L_ a sort of a L_C_D_ menu in , but that again is probably an expense that industrial designer: But just thinking people probably you don't have you only have to probably tune in the T_V_ once , but you have to be able to tune it that once . industrial designer: So and if finally the T_V_ breaks , you get a new one , you're gonna have to be able to tune it . project manager: But the but that's relying on the television market changing to an automatic industrial designer: So that'll be in marketing: Yeah . But at the moment it's not , so it seems to me that you have to have a device that caters , 'cause otherwise it would make it your device would become inoperable , or only operable in certain circumstances industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: And it's also m it's the the product we've got is something that's at the I would have said the lower end of the s of the cost scale , so we're not really going for something that's terribly high-tech . I s I suppose if people are buying remotes , then they're probably buying it to replace another remote project manager: Possibly . marketing: we're maybe talking about replacing remotes for slightly older televisions , so we maybe need to keep the the tuning function in . industrial designer: Would you maybe have like one menu button , then you'd use the other buttons , maybe the number buttons to actually do the separate functions . user interface: and it was too dark , so I had to go through it and turn the brightness up . industrial designer: and then a menu function and maybe sort of a slightly more advanced instruction booklet to come with it , to guide Presu I think it'd be quite hard just for people to grasp just off like the menu use different buttons you maybe have to have like some better instructions of how that would actually work . marketing: I'm not sure whether the sort of having people have a booklet 'cause one the second most annoying thing that people found was having to learn the new one . marketing: So maybe next to each of the buttons , you know each of them could have a number and then also a function written next to it , so you're basically pressing industrial designer: that also goes back to the original design when we saw those two , and there was the one on the left hand side which had all like the double functions and stuff which kind of looked too busy and had too much on it , so . user interface: Well , if we're trying to keep it slee sleek and sexy as well , have you seen those remotes where kind of the bottom bit slides down , so there's kind of everything else revealed ? marketing: Okay . user interface: So you don't use it that much , you don't have to see it all the time . project manager: Right we've got five minutes before we wind up this meeting , so I've been told . And that'll be better for the older generation as well 'cause , well my dad doesn't like anything that you've got to kinda flick through a menu , project manager: Ah . industrial designer: So we're gonna have to have to work out what's gonna be on these other functions as as well . marketing: sorta project manager: That's right so we're dis So you've got which ones are gonna be on the front and which ones are gonna be on the back . industrial designer: So sh Should we decide in the next couple of minutes , and then marketing: user interface: I know it's probably like not an issue to raise here , but the whole thing about not using your standby because of the like waste of electricity . Have you seen the adverts ? Like if you boil the kettle that's full that's a waste . user interface: If you leave your telly on standby it powers Blackpool for a certain amount of time . project manager: So so are you having the stand-by on the front , then ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: We can send out a flier with the device saying that you shouldn't leave it on stand-by . industrial designer: are we gonna have the channel up and down as well as the number buttons ? marketing: 'cause yeah the market research said there is quite a lot of people do just zap around and flick , so . industrial designer: So we've got ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen there ? project manager: Channel up and down . project manager: What else have we got ? What was that , sixteen ? marketing: Numbers is ten , volume is twelve , project manager: Volume button . industrial designer: Maybe if we're gonna run out of time , one of us should come up with a list of these and then get back at the next meeting just at the start and say what they're gonna be . project manager: anything else ? You're also gonna have the channel tuner , as it were . marketing: And then maybe sort of an enter button for sort of s you know , saying that you want that particular thing tuned in . So you go up and down and then it pick it finds something and then you wanna press enter to select it , yeah . We don't really need any other audio funct functions because it's just volume up , volume down . user interface: So I think there's quite a lot of like Dolby surround studio , surround sort of things . industrial designer: Do they have their own do they have their own controls on their actual products , then , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: or do you have to do it via the remote ? user interface: I think they've got their own controls in this kind of like hidden panel . industrial designer: Yeah I suppose if we've got their if they've got their own controls then we can avoid it for ours just to keep it simple . user interface: Oh no , like there's kind of individual buttons for them , like on the T_V_ remote . industrial designer: Maybe unless something comes up then we should I think project manager: Well you might get some research <doc-sep>Who starts ? project manager: Well I'll start just with another presentation , so then we can look at th at the agenda for this meeting . project manager: Well in we'll just have a look at the at the notes from the previous meeting , what we thought we had dec decided . Y you also have received that mail , the new project requirements from our bosses ? industrial designer: No . project manager: Well I think we should show them before your presentations , because it's not really smart to to include some things we can't , because of the new requirements . project manager: We have to deb we have to decide it in this meeting what our function will be . So we said that we have to merge the strong points from our competitors , and look at their remote controls . project manager: We should make it compatible with our new D_V_D_ and other releases we have , our technical releases . And well they can have two functions , because you have a D_V_D_ and a television . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Yeah well that wa It's just thirty minutes ago , user interface: project manager: so it's not quite But well I have to do it . project manager: The materials well should be hard plastic with rubber from , and well the labelling of the buttons should be indestructible . industrial designer: I I disagree , but it's not t it's not my place to disagree I guess . project manager: Well the second is a bit sh pity because we just said we wanted to d include the D_V_D_ user interface: Oh . project manager: and they don't want it , because of our time we have for this project . project manager: So that's a shame , because especially for the third requirement we want to reach people under the thirty years . well it's a bit pity because it's just those people want to have one remote control for all those technical devices they can reach it . user interface: project manager: Well and our corporate image should stay rec recognisable in our products . So we have to use maybe a slogan , maybe a colour , and Yeah well on our remote controls the design has to be , well as we already said a actually , familiar . project manager: So maybe that's a slogan we can put somewhere on our remote control or something . project manager: Oh you have to start ? I didn't see anything about who had to start . marketing: I I just have to to think which file's mine , user interface: marketing: 'cause I was bit in a hurry . next sheet ? at first I tell you something about what people dislike about the current controls , because it's a smart thing to exclude those things . They also say , that's about I thought it was fifty per cent , that more money will be spent on better looking controls . So it's really important to make the the buttons for the common tasks kind of big or kind of flashy . Thus it might be might be smart to make a a big zapping button or something in the middle , so you can reach it with your thumb . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: So it might be sensible to make some kind of a button on your television , that's your your control beeps or something , that you can find this very easily . marketing: 'Cause it's a big I think fifty per cent of the users loses his its control , within the same room . industrial designer: Oh ? project manager: It should actually It should actually be loose from the television , user interface: Yeah . So if you deliver a small click-on device that you can put on your television , that bleeps to your remote control , everyone can use it . marketing: Yeah but what if you lose your click-on device ? project manager: No you can click it on your television . marketing: Yeah but if someone d somebody else uses it in ano other room or something ? project manager: Yeah in another room , yeah . marketing: Nee but it it specifically says it's the the control is lost in the same room . marketing: So Well a beeping device would be project manager: Well we'll have a look at it , yeah . So the the learning curve should be very short for the dumbest people should be able to use it . user interface: industrial designer: I think our user expert should also consider manual a manual for the remote , of course . industrial designer: users to add one ? Do you think ? user interface: I don't think marketing: I think you should put more time in the in the design of pick up and use , than a manual . Yes you should You should could take a look at it and and and know how it how it's supposed to work . industrial designer: Well maybe for the If you don't recognise a button who d who d who do I call wh when I don't know it ? marketing: Alright . But the designer should take it should Wie zeg ik dat ? Yeah , consider the consequences of using your remote . , we're Like the requirements said , we're gonna specify of we're gonna target a younger audience . research shows that they like to have a little L_C_D_ screen on their on their zapping device . I thought it was the age between sixteen and twenty , ninety nine per cent of the people like that . project manager: Well marketing: So it's very important we should definitely have that in our designs . project manager: Well with twelve Euro fifty as production cost , we can't afford an L_C_D_ industrial designer: It's going to be expensive . marketing: So if we want to s If we have a big If we make lots of of the stuff , maybe we can buy it very cheap , I dunno . project manager: Yeah well it's your your task to look into the costs of those industrial designer: We'll think abo we'll think marketing: Yeah , I don't know . project manager: It's not yet a standard development those so user interface: No and we have customers in multiple countries I think . project manager: We sh marketing: Well I do think L_C_D_ is more reachable than the speech recognition . Okay , how do you enlarge it , so that you can have the project manager: F_ five . industrial designer: well I think it's important for you to realise the basic function of a remote control . industrial designer: And I then can select I can select on the dings It goes to the next page . You have basically the energy , the power of the of the remote control , and the sender , w which is the LED , the the the the the the the the the bulb that sends the the infrared beam to the , no , to the set . user interface: industrial designer: And the the user interface sends the the different signals of the different buttons to the chip , and the chip sends it to the LED , and the LED sends it to the receiver . marketing: industrial designer: well I have put it in a in in in a a couple of basic steps . project manager: industrial designer: The chip produces Morse code , a specific code to indicate that specific button that is pressed , of course . And it uses transistors in the in the remote control to amplify and to send that signal again to the to the LED , which is the bulb , of course . project manager: industrial designer: Now the LED produces an infrared beam and signals the , well it's very simple , and signals the signals to the sensor on the T_V_ set , project manager: Yeah . marketing: industrial designer: and the T_V_ set also recognises the the the signal , and performs the assigned task . project manager: So it is also why we have to have a button that says I'm now busy with a D_V_D_ if we had done that . And if we if we're going to add an an L_C_D_ screen to it , it won't look anything like this , but This is very basic basically the the shape of of a remote control . It has very little buttons and user interface: industrial designer: But it it it's it's quite Yeah , you can easily recognise the buttons . So we have to change a little bit to that , so that it becomes more user-friendly , and that problems like R_S_I_ and those kinds of thing don't don't oc don't occur . marketing: But I think it's very important to make the power , channel and volume buttons near to the thumb , so you can't have R_S_I_ consequences . industrial designer: Yeah , because they are the the most important buttons and you can immediately marketing: Right . project manager: Well but but user interface: You can also like industrial designer: You don't have to look and and search for them . project manager: if you have the most used buttons all in one place , and you keep making the same well moves . project manager: But if y if you would put it at a different place , then you have to move your hands , user interface: project manager: and that's on of the things about R_S_I_ . marketing: We project manager: No but the most important buttons m maybe you can just put them a bit apart so you would reject R_ R_S_I_ R_S_I_ . And user interface: Maybe you can make , for for channel changing , two little buttons on the side of the remote , so you can just do like this . Like some little Gameboy things or some project manager: Yes I've saw that on m on mi mobile telephones they also have those buttons . marketing: But is that is that useable ? user interface: ? marketing: Do people , when they pick up a remote , know that they have to do that ? project manager: user interface: Well marketing: It's a f it's a new feature , project manager: Well it it's industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Yeah alright , but project manager: Well also i if someone puts picks up his remote user interface: Yeah , but if you s say them up and down , they they'll understand it , I think . If someone puts up i picks up his remote , and he picks up it he he touches the side then he's a already on the next channel . industrial designer: But in e in any case the the basic function should be indeed , and as you say at the thumb . industrial designer: I think that's a good idea , and and that the less important buttons , like the the the different channels , the numbers one two three four five as well , should be yeah well not in reach , because they don't use it all the time . industrial designer: And I have some pictures of the inside workings , but I don't want to get too technical , project manager: Oh I had to delete this , but I had to make a schematic of the of the new marketing: Alright . industrial designer: But I had too too little time , marketing: industrial designer: but don't don't look at it please . project manager: Well then we have still the time , so But we do have to come to a decision , right later on . project manager: user interface: Well I thought everybody on the website would see the same thing , but obviously that's not the case . user interface: The the method ? Well I used my own experience with remotes , took a good l look at the remotes on the corporate website , which are these two . user interface: marketing: These are already in use ? user interface: Yes , these are from from another manufacturer . user interface: Well , I thought that we reduce the the option to control the D_V_D_ also , and teletext and that kind of stuff . user interface: So we can can yeah customise the project manager: Well absolutely , but i th they all have to have something about the recognition from our company . user interface: You can marketing: But it project manager: So if y if you make a a front with just a a tiger on it , then our recognition is totally gone . marketing: Yeah , that's right user interface: Or you can you can can put the same symbol on on every remote . So the symbol's always on user interface: Yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah , so that you don't replace the symbol , yeah . Something like that , project manager: Or the th the the lowest part of the remote isn't changed by the front . I think industrial designer: Mike , can you put that picture from me on the in the Word documents file ? In Map ? user interface: Yeah , I will . project manager: Yeah ? marketing: there are two target audi audiences , and we've chose for the younger one . project manager: Well what if we I at I at home have a remote that has the most familiar buttons on the top , and the bottom side of the front has a little clip , marketing: project manager: a f a little You can click away and then you have f much more functions that most people don't use but s some do do . project manager: Well but because you say they their features are important , they want m a lot , industrial designer: No usually marketing: Yeah right . industrial designer: But project manager: but not user interface: Yeah , but what kind of features ? Like L_C_D_ screens and voice recognition . marketing: You see ? So we must build in something , or they will to go to the concurrent . project manager: On some calculators you have lo those little little L_C_D_ th that you can click on or something , marketing: Right . project manager: Those kind of things , because you also have those those program recognition for your V_ V_C_R_s . And well if y if your remote picks that up also , you they can display which programme you're currently watching . So it it just signals the the different sig the different symbols on the screen you have , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: because if you change to s channel two you have two on the screen and two on your on your on your L_C_D_ screen . It it could be such a little th that you can click in and out and you and you have it . user interface: It will industrial designer: But should it really be clickable , project manager: Well maybe . industrial designer: But that's of course a bit more expensive than the basic calculator design , with the scrolling text and that kind of thing . project manager: Well I think it's you got It just means it's a script that's keeps it rolling , marketing: Well it's just one script . project manager: and it's not That's five minutes off implementing time I think marketing: Yeah , five minutes of ja ja for programming . marketing: Alright , we go with the L_C_D_ screen ? project manager: well I think so , yes . Right , I don't know if I can find that , but project manager: We're g No but we're we'll have to look into that . user interface: Or maybe you will get that information project manager: we can use this board again , I think . user interface: At the top or at the bottom ? industrial designer: The L_C_D_ screen alright but we should start with the power button ? marketing: I think the top is more project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: user interface: Yeah but marketing: When you s How do you zap ? project manager: marketing: You just sit in your chair ? project manager: industrial designer: Huh ? user interface: Yeah but with with the L_C_D_ screen on the top it gets a bit unnatural . industrial designer: And then marketing: We'll draw two , and then we'll see industrial designer: Maybe we should centralise the discussion here . I dunno what you were talking about but marketing: No industrial designer: we are busy with something . He thinks it's better to put the L_C_D_ at the bottom , and I think it's better at the top . Why do you think it's better at the bottom ? user interface: well because most remotes have some space left at the bottom , and that way you can keep the shape recognisable for everybody . marketing: But your user interface: I c industrial designer: But you just can put the the the the the whole interface a bit down , so that there's room for the for the interface . user interface: Well I d I think that's that's ugly but marketing: The the ticker The L_C_D_ is like like small . But project manager: Well I th I think Mike Mike has a point , user interface: I th industrial designer: And and we can project manager: because when when when I use a remote I l I hate the buttons but buttons at the at the bottom . project manager: So when I u when I have to have an L_C_D_ s scr window marketing: Yeah right . marketing: We industrial designer: It looks more like a calculator to people , if you have the l the the the thing on top . user interface: Yeah you don't want project manager: We don't want them to look like a calculator . project manager: We want to look it like our original but familiar industrial designer: Yeah w well , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but you don't have to throw important aspe important aspect like familiarity completely away , marketing: High-tech . project manager: Yea industrial designer: because I think it's marketing: project manager: Maybe a bic better white We White ? industrial designer: I think it's still important to have it at the top , marketing: Width . format yeah format ? Line width ? Width ? industrial designer: because it's it's more familiar that way . Well project manager: Well let's talk about that later industrial designer: Maybe you should another pen . marketing: I think we have a few functions , and we can put the L_C_D_ above it , and still have lots of room at the bottom , where you can put your hand . user interface: At the bottom ? industrial designer: Well I'm the I I'm the designer , so user interface: In a few minutes marketing: At the bot user interface: Oh yeah , oh yeah , I totally agree . project manager: Well but what what if we we first decide the different functions , user interface: He's the boss . marketing: And moreover I think that you two should be come to consensus about the L_C_D_ s . industrial designer: While you have to agree , I can say it's like this and you must agree . project manager: We have a power button , setting buttons , L_C_D_ window , the number buttons user interface: The ten numbers ? Yeah ? industrial designer: Channel , yeah . user interface: I think we we should use something like this to The the channel up and channel down button ? Yeah , in circle , you know ? project manager: Yes . project manager: Well h ho industrial designer: But th th on this remote th these controls are for something else , a D_V_D_ player or something . They are for some video user interface: Yes , as I already said , we could drop some of these buttons . When when you put them all in the same place , the most used buttons , you're doing the same thing all the time , project manager: marketing: and that's just what R_S_I_'s all about . industrial designer: Yeah , it's it's also not good to completely stay in one position constantly with one hand . project manager: That's what I always do , industrial designer: Y project manager: because all my i important buttons are the same place . project manager: Yes ? user interface: Yeah but people don't like it when their buttons are all over the place . industrial designer: No but now y W would we have to choose a way in middle ? marketing: Frequency of button use . marketing: So the the channel channel buttons should be far far apart , I think , up and down . project manager: Up and down far apart from each other ? industrial designer: Far apart ? marketing: You thinking about R_S_I_ ? user interface: Yeah but project manager: Well not too much . industrial designer: marketing: Nei not too much , but user interface: The other the other two frustrations are far more important . So industrial designer: I think you can have the two buttons of up and down close together , but you don't have have to have volume control and and zapping button close together . project manager: Well for example the power button , you can user interface: Well they are used four times an hour , so project manager: If someone is constantly z zapping , it's not going to miss , that it that the power button is not right beside it . project manager: The power button can be user interface: Power bu button should be left at the top . marketing: The most important things we have to project manager: how are we going to do it with those numbers ? industrial designer: C c can you make you make We can use the drawing board now , I think . it it doesn't work well but But it it would be pretty pretty nice if we could just draw a simple thing . project manager: Well user interface: Well consensus , We we can put it in the middle , so project manager: Well it's a bit hard , because we are going to be individually . We're No project manager: That's a bit marketing: We're deciding now , so project manager: Yes . marketing: Top or bottom ? industrial designer: Well yeah I I still think it's it's quite important though to to have it at the top , so project manager: Yes it is . You say familiarity isn't important but project manager: Well what if we're going to now decide about the functions , and the design comes into the next round ? Plus the d th the design round is still to come huh ? marketing: Okay . industrial designer: As we we we we agreed , we do have a L_C_D_ . Are we going to do it like on Mike's screen with one button that says I'm going to do a t two number digital ? user interface: No . project manager: How do you want it to do then ? user interface: Well just when you push a one one and industrial designer: There's one two three four five six six seven eight nine zero . user interface: No , if you On most T_V_s if you press two numbers shortly after each other , d it industrial designer: Oh , like that . project manager: Okay anyone any oth other functionalities of our remote ? industrial designer: I think these are the the most important functions . You do need them ? project manager: No , we'd just said we didn't marketing: Yeah , I know . project manager: well because we can't integrate it with any other remotes , all those buttons on those pictures are irrelevant . marketing: project manager: We'll have those buttons about And the two important ones we're l f forgetting . project manager: Those two ? But it's just two , and we make a clip ? industrial designer: just two just two under under marketing: project manager: Th that's a bit waste . industrial designer: I I think project manager: Your L_C_D_ screen is going to go . user interface: Or at industrial designer: But you you can put two or three buttons under another section . industrial designer: You can just put it somewhere project manager: Yeah industrial designer: They they aren't used much , not as much as those other , so you can put it somewhere user interface: Oh , they can be small or round like buttons . What do you think those those buttons ? project manager: Well I think they should in an in an isolated part of the remote . Well any other marketing: Well if you you take those th If you user interface: Why go to video ? project manager: Go to video , that's always on your remote control . marketing: Yeah , but you can z you can zap t you can you can zap to the video channel from zero to industrial designer: The the video channel ? user interface: That's just zero . user interface: Yeah , but you can can zap down marketing: Yeah , but when you zap down zero you get to A_V_ . user interface: I think go to video is an irrelevant button , but project manager: Th that's the button No . industrial designer: But it's easy to go If you are at at channel fifty five and you want to go immediately to the video channel , you do you have to push a to to get below zero . project manager: I I think that one button is I use it user interface: marketing: Yeah , but if we're choosing to incorporate these buttons , you have to have channel setting , if you wa if you have a new T_V_ . project manager: Yeah ? marketing: Right all th these different buttons you have to project manager: These buttons , I don't have buttons for channel setting especially on my remote . project manager: It's it's incorporated with p m plus and down , those user interface: Yeah well y you must have . user interface: Yeah you yeah you have one one button from s set frequency o or something , project manager: user interface: and then with plus and min minus you can adjust the marketing: Right . project manager: Ch ch industrial designer: Yeah to oh yeah of course to configure the programme the Yeah . Oh the Okay button ? marketing: project manager: Oh you always have in the centre an Okay button , for your menu . project manager: user interface: I think things like contrast and brightness should be in the menu , yeah . project manager: We're going to go to our rooms , and we'll have to decide s things on our own I think . project manager: Well see you user interface: I thought we'd lunch right now , or not ? project manager: W w we have lunchtime , by the way , now so industrial designer: Yeah this is this is your thing

The Marketing team conducted lab tests and found that users preferred a high-tech yet user-friendly remote. They decided to simplify the remote by keeping only the most necessary buttons, as research showed that users typically only use about ten percent of the buttons. Additionally, users expressed frustration with losing their remotes easily. To address this, the team discussed incorporating a speech recognition function into the remote. According to Marketing's research, three-quarters of customers found their remotes ugly and only focused on the channel, volume, and power buttons. Many customers also struggled to learn all the functions on the remote. To solve these issues, Marketing suggested a speech recognition system and a beeping device to locate the remote. They also recommended designing a remote that is easy to pick up and use, targeting a younger market interested in LCD and speech recognition. The group agreed to consider Marketing's suggestions for the remote's functionality and design.

Summarize the presentation and discussion on the functional requirements, including Marketing's presentation and the team's discussion about the customer's requirements for the remote.

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): We'll call this meeting to order. Welcome to the fifth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Pursuant to the order passed on Monday, April20, the committee is meeting today to consider ministerial announcements, to allow members of the committee to present petitions, and to question ministers, including the Prime Minister, about the COVID-19 pandemic. Tomorrow, May8, Dr.AndreaMcCrady, Dominion Carillonneur, will give a special recital to mark the 75th anniversary of Victory in Europe Day. Victory in Europe Day, VE Day, commemorates the formal acceptance of Germany's surrender by allied forces at the end of the Second World War. While the pandemic prevents us from gathering to celebrate in person, tomorrow at noon the voice of our nation will ring out in remembrance of this milestone in our history. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee. I would like to remind members that, as in the House of Commons or committee, they should not take photos of their colleagues or film the proceedings. In order to facilitate the work of the interpreters and to allow the meeting to proceed smoothly, I would ask you to follow some instructions. When you are ready to speak, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone, or hold the space bar down while you are speaking. If you release the bar, your microphone will revert to mute, just like a walkie-talkie. Honourable members, I would like to remind you that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should you need to request the floor outside of your designated speaking time, you should activate your mike and state that you have a point of order. If a member of the committee wishes to intervene on a point of order raised by another person, you should use the raised hand function to indicate to the chair that you wish to speak. Should any technical challenges arise, for example, in relation to interpretation, please advise the chair immediately by raising a point of order, and the technical team will work on resolving them. If you get accidentally disconnected, please try to rejoin the meeting with the information you used to join initially. Before we get started, please note that in the top right-hand corner of your screen is a button that you can use to change views. Speaker view allows you to focus on the person currently speaking; gallery view allows you to see a larger number of participants. You can click through the multiple pages in the gallery view to see who is on and how many more participants there are. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. In addition, to ensure a petition is considered properly presented, the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for a petition certified in a previous Parliament should be mailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. Chair, five years ago when Parliament passed Bill C-14, then justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould said that it represented a finely tuned balance between access and safeguards. Petitioners on the first petition I'm presenting are very concerned to see Bill C-7 before Parliament, which removes safeguards ahead of that five-year review. Petitioners specifically mention their concerns about the removal of the mandatory 10-day reflection period, which can already be waived in certain circumstances. They are concerned about reducing the number of witnesses required to oversee it and ensure that a request has been properly made. The second and final petition that I will be presenting today is with respect to Senate Bill S-204. This would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who did not consent. This responds specifically to concerns about organ harvesting in the People's Republic of China involving Falun Gong practitioners and increasing concerns that this is being or about to be applied to Uighurs as well. Petitioners are noting that in the previous Parliament there were bills on this, Bill C-350 and Bill S-240. Now, in this Parliament there is a bill, Bill S-204, and the petitioners hope that this 43rd Parliament will be the one that gets it passed. This is my first occasion to present a petition in our virtual format of the COVID-19 committee. The petition I am presenting today, which was previously approved, is from a number of constituents who are concerned that we pursue the Paris Agreement to hold the global average temperature increase to no more than 1.5C. The Paris Agreement itself embeds in it the concept of Just Transition with a capital J and a capital T, the concept of just transition ensuring fairness and support for all workers in the fossil fuel sector. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to move forward with an act to ensure just transition and to ensure adequate funding so that workers and communities dependent on the fossil fuel sector receive meaningful support to ensure security in their lives in the transition to more sustainable energy use. I want to thank the honourable members for their usual collaboration and now we'll go on to mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): On a point of order, Mr. Chair, on Tuesday, at our COVID-19 committee of the whole meeting, I was asking a question which started at 12:56:06 and was cut off at 1:00:32, so I still have 34 seconds of time remaining in my question time of five minutes. If you believe that my time was unjustly cut off and that it was unfair treatment of the official opposition when we were raising our points of order, I would ask that the 34 seconds be tacked on to the opening round for the opposition and credited to Rosemarie Falk, who will be leading off for the Conservatives. the chair: Normally what happens is the chair uses judgment, and with 35 seconds, there isn't enough time obviously for a full question or answer, most of the time. I want everyone to know that I do have a timer next to me and I am timing the questions, and I will be treating the answers the same way. We've taken a little bit of the chair's ability to give judgment on it, but it will be from now on. I would like to remind the honourable members that no member will be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair. Will the Prime Minister stand up for Canada's energy workers, or does he agree with the fringe left and those who want to destroy our country? ms. Chair, I believe that the language that the honourable member just used is unparliamentary mr. It is unacceptable to assert that anyone who wants to make a point about our economy is trying to destroy the country. As I pointed out this morning in my press conference, we cannot move forward on a transformation of our energy sector without supporting the workers in that energy sector. We need their innovation and we need their hard work if we are going to lower our emissions, if we are going to reach our the chair: We'll go to Ms. Chair, it has been 43 days since the finance minister promised Canada's energy sector liquidity through the Business Development Bank of Canada. If the government doesn't step up to support our energy sector, they are in effect doubling down on their support for foreign, unethically sourced oil. Chair, when will the credit options be available to Canada's small and medium energy firms? the chair: I want to remind honourable members that we do have interpreters who are listening and translating. Chair, from the very beginning, our priority through this pandemic and this crisis has been to support workers across the country. We have sent billions of dollars to workers right across the country, including Alberta, Saskatchewan, B.C., and Newfoundland and Labrador in the energy sector for them to be able to support their families through this difficult time. The announcements to date fall well short of what is needed to maintain a steady supply of affordable and healthy food. Instead of responding to specific COVID-19 challenges, our farmers are facing the Liberals' reannounced $125 million that was already budgeted in the AgriRecovery program. Will the Prime Minister finally step up and take our food supply chain seriously, or is agriculture just an afterthought for him? right hon. Chair, we take agriculture and our agricultural sector extremely seriously, which is why we announced hundreds of millions of dollars a couple of days ago to respond to pressing needs. We will continue to make investments to ensure both the safety of workers in our agricultural sector and the safety of our communities, as well as the continued flow of high-quality Canadian food onto our tables right across the country. Our farmers are faced with rising operational costs, a disrupted service industry, labour shortages and a reduced capacity at processing plants. When will the Prime Minister deliver adequate support to address the critical changes facing our ag industry? right hon. Chair, I would suggest respectfully that the honourable member take a look once again at the announcement we made, which actually highlights significant new investments to support our agricultural industry. Every step of the way in this unprecedented situation, we've been moving forward on doing more, on adjusting and on investing more. We need to support our agricultural sector and the people who work so hard to put food on Canadians' tables right across the country and we will continue to. Chair, Canadians expect to find healthy and affordable food at their grocery stores, but if the government does not take action now, that's not a given. It is an enormous hit to their bottom line, and the recent carbon tax hike is taking even more money out of the pockets of farmers at a time when they can afford it the least. Will the Prime Minister exempt all farm operations from the carbon tax and reimburse the money that they have already taken from them? right hon. Chair, it's a shame to hear the member opposite accidentallyunintentionally, I'm certainmislead the House and Canadians. This is the way of creating a better future for our kids and grandkids, which I know people in communities right across the country, including our farm communities, want to see happen. We are moving forward in a responsible way to put a price on pollution and put more money in average Canadians' pockets. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I am thinking about the lobster fishery in the Magdalen Islands, the crab fishery on the Cte-Nord or those fishing for herring in the south of the Gasp. Because imports have ceased, because the domestic market is weak and in decline because of the interruption of the tourism and restaurant industries, the fishing industry and its fishers must be supported. justin trudeau: Our fishers do exceptional work that is extremely important in feeding Canadians and in contributing to our economic success through their exports around the world. I know about the processing industry and the $62.5million to be used essentially for freezing products, but I am talking about the fishers themselves. In addition, they feel that they will be losing money, because of the drop in the price of their resource. They are just as essential as farmers, but they are going to have to work at a loss and they are not going to have workers to assist them. Are you going to do anything else, in addition to the assistance of $62.5million? Time is of the essence. We recognize the challenges that fishers must face in terms of social distancing and of work that is often seasonal. We are going to continue working with the industry, with the fishers, and with the coastal communities in order to ensure that people have confidence in their abilities and in their future. In times of crisis, it is important for the government to be there to support people, and that is exactly what we are going to continue to do. But, given the cyclical nature of the industry, some sectors have had to postpone for several weeks the preparations they need for fishing activities. The current program could be modified in a number of ways, to accommodate the cycle, the dates, and the size of the companies. They would really like to take advantage of the $40,000loan, but they cannot because of their payroll. I can already suggest a number of solutions to the government and to the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, that would bring help to those businesses very quickly. The fishers carry on, because it is a duty for them, because they want to help us and to be part of the effort at this time of crisis. I would really like to hear a guarantee that they will be supported, that they will be able to put food on the table this year, and that they will be able to support the communities that often depend on the fishing industry, a major industry in those communities. justin trudeau: Minister Jordan has been working with the fishers, the fishing industry and the communities affected by the crisis since the crisis began. From the outset, our priority has been to support the millions of Canadians from coast to coast who have lost their jobs. We have been able to do so, but we are going to continue to work for those who must now face difficulties. the chair: Before we move to the next question, I would like to remind members of the committee to speak slowly, and to address their remarks to the chair and not directly to each other. They've seen revenues plummet, and at the same time the cost of delivering municipal services has risen. As the Prime Minister knows, municipalities are unable to run deficits and so they are facing the reality of cutbacks and serious cuts to the services that Canadians depend on. They're going to be even more important during the recovery, especially when it comes to delivering on the infrastructure programs before us. My question for the Prime Minister is, when can they expect federal financial support to arrive? right hon. Chair, no government in Canada's history has done more to work with our municipalities, with our cities, with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to respond to the challenges they're facing and to partner with them. Things from infrastructure to investments have made a huge difference right across the country in the quality of life of Canadians in towns, large and small, from coast to coast to coast. As I'm sure the member well knows, our Constitution requires that most of the funding for municipalities flow through the provinces. We are working with the provinces, as we continue to work with the cities, to ensure that we're able to support this order of government that delivers the vast majority of services to Canadians with very little financial means. Chair, it would seem that the federal government has the fiscal capacity and the responsibility to help municipalities weather this crisis. Transit systems have been hit particularly hard and have seen the bulk of the layoffs in the municipal sector. These transit services carry essential workers to work, whether they are health care workers, grocery store workers, janitors or others. We will see service cutbacks precisely at a time when we want to be expanding transit and improving transit in our communities. Does the Prime Minister acknowledge that the federal government needs to step in to safeguard and protect Canada's transit services? right hon. Chair, this federal government recognizes how important it is to support all Canadians, which is why we put forward unprecedented measures to help millions upon millions of Canadians with the CERB and with the wage subsidy. I'll be having a conversation with all other first ministers tonight to talk about a broad range of issues. We have continued to engage with them, but again, it is important to respect the Constitution and understand that funding for municipalities and cities does go through the provinces. The federal government is happy to be there to support, but it must be the chair: We will go to Mr. Chair, I am wondering how the Prime Minister could explain to a bus driver in Vancouver who has been laid off that as a public sector worker, she can't access the federal wage subsidy, while an equivalent worker in the airline industry gets to keep her job with the federal help of that program. Chair, I'm happy to explain to the member and to all Canadians that our Constitution creates federal areas of jurisdiction and provincial areas of jurisdiction. The airline industry, like banking, like telecommunications, is a federal area of jurisdiction that we have been able to move forward on. More than that, we brought the Canada emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy to all industries across this country, because we knew that as the federal government, it was something that we needed to step up on the chair: We will go back to Mr. Faced with minimal health care capacity, remote indigenous communities in my riding are taking matters into their own hands. The Nuxalk have put up a checkpoint on Highway 20 to protect community members and prevent non-essential travel. In particular, it is to protect the three remaining fluent speakers of the Nuxalk language, these cherished elders in their community. The Haida on Haida Gwaii have set up a similar checkpoint, as have communities throughout British Columbia, yet federal support for indigenous communities amounts to only $39 million for all of the indigenous communities in B.C. Does the Prime Minister not agree that more support is warranted to help indigenous communities in my riding and across the country? right hon. Chair, from the very beginning, we made funds available to Canadians right across the country, particularly people in indigenous remote or northern communities who we knew would be facing more difficult challenges because of the existing vulnerabilities in their health care system and socio-economic circumstances. We have made unprecedented investments and we will continue to make the necessary investments, because we need to make sure that indigenous Canadians, and indeed all Canadians, have the supports they need to make it through this crisis. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr.Chair. I am going to keep talking about the area of jurisdiction that the Prime Minister likes to talk about, except that I want to point out the incompetence of the Liberals in keeping their commitments on infrastructure projects. As the provinces gradually restart their economies, can the Prime Minister tell us how many projects that the provinces have submitted are waiting for approval from his government? mr. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, I hope that the length of the pause will not be taken out of my time. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): I'm sorry, Mr.Chair, I was on mute. It is very important to build projects that will create good jobs the chair: We are returning to Mr.Berthold. How many projects are currently awaiting government approval? I know that the minister has been meeting virtually with the provinces over the last few days. Rather than wait for the right political opportunity to approve these files, will the minister commit today to respecting the provinces and approving by next week all the projects that are sitting on her desk? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, I'm pleased with how we are working with the provinces and territories. We will announce the approval of projects because it's very important for our economy, our communities and creating good jobs. luc berthold: Does the minister understand that she hasn't told us how many projects are still pending? The construction season is very short. Approval of a project in July means that work can't begin until next year, which won't help revive our economy. catherine mckenna: I want to make it clear that we have approved hundreds of projects in the last few weeks. These projects are important for the economy and the environment, as well as for jobs the chair: We return now to Mr.Berthold. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, while the minister is calling for a green recovery of the country's economy, public transit is at risk. The Union des municipalits du Qubec estimates that the monthly losses are between $75million and $100million. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, we recognize the importance of public transit for our economy, since some essential workers use public transit. As the Prime Minister said, it's the provinces that must help because the money the chair: We return now to Mr.Berthold. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, once again, what we're hearing is that the government is passing the buck to the provinces. Unfortunately, the minister was unable to answer a single question about the number of infrastructure projects still on the federal government's desk, which is very important. In terms of the number of projects that we've approved, I would be happy to inform the hon. member of the exact number of all the approved projects that my department has been working very hard on over the past few months to approve projects to go forward. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, do I have any time left? the chair: No, your time is up. On March 28, the minister personally tweeted out a thank you to the People's Republic of China for donating PPE to Canada. More recently, Taiwan donated half a million surgical masks to Canada, yet here we are, two weeks later, and the minister has yet to personally thank Taiwan for its generosity. I can say, after my COVID foreign ministers call, that the world community has come together to make sure that supply chains will remain intact and that we will have transit hubs and air bridges. Chair, I didn't hear a thank you there, so I'm going to try again. On May 4, the Government of Taiwan delivered 25,000 surgical masks to the Government of British Columbia. Minister of Citizens' Services Anne Kang and Minister of State for Child Care Katrina Chen, who, as ministers, officially thanked the Government of Taiwan for its donation. Again, will the minister now do the right thing and, on behalf of Canadians, recognize the generosity of Taiwan and thank its government for that timely donation? hon. Chair, as I said to you before, Canada is grateful to all who have given supplies to Canada. As I said, when it comes to global health, when it comes to helping each other, I think it is a duty for all to come together. We are grateful and thankful for all those who have agreed to help Canada and Canadians from coast to coast to coast in times of need. I've repeated that and have said many times in many forums that we are grateful and thankful to all of those who are helping Canada. The Government of Taiwan has been the world leader in successfully fighting the COVID-19 pandemic. Sadly, the People's Republic of China continues to oppose Taiwan's membership in the World Health Organization. Will the minister now do the right thing and assure Canadians that he will fully support efforts to grant Taiwan membership in the World Health Organization? hon. That said, we support Taiwan to continue meaningful participation in international multilateral forums, particularly when it comes to health. We also believe that Taiwan's role as an observer in the World Health Assembly meeting is of interest to the international health community and we have been supportive of that. Can he tell us exactly how many Canadians remain abroad who have expressed a desire to be repatriated? hon. As of today, we have repatriated more than 20,000 Canadians on 232 flights from 87 countries. As the Prime Minister and I have said from the beginning, we will make our best effort to repatriate everyone who wants to come back home during the crisis. My office has received correspondence from Canadians concerned that trial delays due to COVID-19 may result in criminals walking free. As this government has been working overtime to criminalize law-abiding citizens with new and useless gun laws, will the Minister of Justice ensure that real criminals will not walk free as a result of delays in the justice system? hon. We have been working with my provincial counterparts across Canada, as well as with the various federal courts and also, through my provincial counterparts, with the superior courts and courts of appeal across Canada. Each particular jurisdiction has taken measures to ensure that basic essential services within the court system are maintained, through a variety of means, and we believe that we will be able to solve these various challenges. Chair, the regional relief and recovery fund was announced weeks ago as a way to help small and medium-sized businesses in rural communities, like those in my riding. Can the minister clarify whether we are days away or weeks away from this support flowing to the businesses that need it so desperately? hon. Chair, I had the chance to talk with many of the chambers of commerce and business owners throughout Atlantic Canada, and we hear their anxiety. That's why ACOA's doing great work on the ground to make sure we can help them through this very difficult period. We have increased the budget of ACOAgood newsand I'll be coming up with the details very soon. It will be a pleasure to collaborate with him to make sure that we can help many businesses and business owners across the Atlantic region. In particular, they are unable to access the emergency business account, because they do not have a payroll. There are hundreds and thousands of small businesses in this very situation, vital small businesses in our communities, but they do not meet this requirement. What does the Minister of Finance have to say to these small businesses that are suffering right now? hon. I want all the businesses that he is talking about and all of them throughout the country to know that we continue to work very hard to make sure they're supported through this difficult period. We know that businesses are being supported through getting access to the wage subsidy to keep their employees together, and they're getting help, whether it's with rent or to defray costs by deferring GST and HST or customs duty payments. Some have a personal account that they've dealt with over the years rather than a business account, and that makes them ineligible. Chair, small businesses are concerned about their ability to survive, and no amount of deferrals, loans or subsidies can substitute for their need to be open and servicing their customers. Can the government confirm that a sectoral risk analysis has taken place to assist the provinces in reopening the economy? hon. Chair, I can assure the member that we've been very clear in terms of our strategy around reopening the economy. We need to make sure that we follow the advice of the experts and the health authorities to do so in a manner that does not compromise the health and well-being of Canadians. We of course will have a sectoral lens, and as you can see by some of the initiatives and the support packages we've put forward the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Can the government confirm that the programs currently in place will be expanded to these hard-working Canadians? hon. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we continue to work with all of our small businesses and I want to thank him for raising this very important issue. I want to assure our Canadian small businesses that we are going to continue to do this work to make sure they are supported. james cumming: Can the minister give me a date when she will be able to announce to these businesses that they will be eligible? hon. mary ng: I want to assure our Canadian small businesses of their importance and of the importance of their contributions to all of our communities. I want them to know that we continue to listen and that we will ensure that they are supported and continue to be supported during this difficult time. Can you give me a date when I can tell these thousands of businesses they will be supported if they pay dividends or if they use contractors within their businesses? hon. The landlord says that he doesn't have the 25% needed to be eligible for the program because he's already paying for common area costs and deferrals on utilities, which he will have to pay on his mortgage. Will the government reform the rent relief program to focus on tenants and not just the landlords? hon. Chair, I want to let the member know that we are working to make sure that the details of the emergency program for rent are out there so that both tenants and landlords can understand the situation. We're seeing a significant number of both landlords and tenants coming forward to register for this program, and we are convinced that it will be in the best interests of landlords to move forward and give tenants this relief. Chair, we've been hearing, however, from small business owners that their landlords don't find the government's rent relief program appealing enough. Can the government confirm, given the program's low eligibility rate, that the program will be expanded and be more efficient in helping tenants? hon. Chair, we recognize that it's critically important that all of the details of this program be out there for landlords and tenants to understand. This is a program that we've put out within the last week, and we are confident that it's in the best interests of tenants and landlords. One easy way to do that would be to expand the Canada summer jobs program to businesses with over 50 employees. Will the government consider doing so to allow students to gain that very valuable work experience over the coming months? hon. The second uptake provided employers across the country with the ability to add their needs for students to the mix. During this pandemic, the government has consistently called for a team Canada, non-partisan approach, and I was glad to hear that said a little earlier today. However, at the same time, the current government has used a parliamentary back door to launch a poorly thought out gun ban. We have a government that didn't win the popular vote, and I'm just wondering how I explain to my residents, because I'm getting so many calls, that this is not a bloated response because, quite frankly, it is. Chair, I think the honourable member can explain to his constituents that the forming of regulations through order in council is actually the process prescribed in law in Canada under section 117.15 of the Criminal Code. I would also invite the member to advise his constituents that way back in 1991, when there were some Conservatives who called themselves Progressive, the Mulroney government brought forward, in Bill C-17, the authority under that section for an order in council to prescribe specific makes, models and variants of military firearms as prohibited or restricted. terry dowdall: I'm not sure, but I'm hoping, that I'll get an honest answer on this question from the minister, who has everything from rocket launchers to basically toy guns on the ban list. When will we get the cost of this buyback program? the chair: I want to remind the honourable members to please be careful in their language when they are referring to others. I won't comment on this one particularly, but I want all of you to be very, very careful when referring to other members. Chair, to respond to some of the obfuscations and deceptions that have been put out there. I think it's very clear, and I invite the member to look at the list of weapons that are the chair: We'll go back to Mr. bill blair: Actually, I'm very much looking forward to bringing forward legislation as soon as the House resumes. We will have a vigorous debate in Parliament about the form a buyback will take and we will bring forward a budget at that time. bill blair: If people are illegally in possession of the weapons and they're committing a crime, they will be dealt with for the crimes they commit. Canadians in my riding who suffer from cystic fibrosis are among the most vulnerable to COVID-19 infection. While these Canadians with existing lung conditions are incredibly worried about a virus that attacks the ability to breathe, the good news is that there are life-saving medicines for those with CF. I am wondering if and when the government will correct these guidelines and give access to life-saving medicines for our most vulnerable. Chair, as you know, the government has been very committed to improving access and affordability for prescription medications for all Canadians. The PMPRB regulatory amendments will help Canadians be able to afford their prescriptions, and Canada will continue to be an important market for new medicines. In fact, many countries with much lower medicine prices gained access to new medicines in the same time frame as Canada frame, or even faster, so we are excited to do this work. Chair, our seniors are being particularly hard hit right now during this pandemic, yet seniors have not been given any direct support. Funding to charities like the United Way is being labelled as support for seniors, but most won't see any of this support. Seniors in my riding have asked for an increase in their CPP and OAS, and to be able to make untaxed bulk withdrawals from their RRSPs while they still have some value. deb schulte (minister of seniors): I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic. the chair: You might want to try your space bar and keep it down while you're speaking. I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic. We've reduced the minimum RRIF withdrawal by 25%, and we've made the CERB available to working seniors who have lost their jobs due to the COVID pandemic. We know there's more work to do, and we'll have more to say in the future. the chair: I want to remind honourable members that if there are issues, we are taking note of them, and we'll hopefully resolve them by the next meeting. marie-hlne gaudreau (laurentideslabelle, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. In fact, we have been looking at a number of ways to support increased contact tracing across the country, including working with provinces and territories to boost their capacity through human resources and volunteer organizations. Anything we put forward as a digital tool to assist with contact tracing would be thoroughly considerate of Canadians' privacy rights. But you know as well as I do that the Privacy Commissioner has been calling us to task for a very long time now, because there is also a crisis of confidence. You know as well as I do that for 90%of Canadians, the misuse of their personal data is a cause for concern, whether it be for profiling or business development purposes. I'd like to know whether this commitment will be implemented quickly so that legislation can be passed on this issue, in this case the Privacy Act. We're talking about what is going on in Quebec, among other places, and I would like to make sure that the federal government commits to respecting the proposals regarding geolocation and contact tracing possibilities, with full respect for the right to privacy. We have worked very closely with provinces and territories for a long time before the outbreak, but certainly ever since the outbreak. We respect the rights of jurisdictional authorities to use tools that have been properly vetted through their own provincial and territorial legislation. marie-hlne gaudreau: Concerning privacy, there are 30million Quebeckers and Canadians who have had their personal data leaked. Why is it that our laws don't allow us to apply financial penalties so that we can then go further? The very basis is to be concerned about our fundamental rights. As the critic for access to information and privacy, I'd like a commitment that the federal government will deal not with what the provinces are doing, but with the Privacy Act. the chair: Your time is up, but I'll give the floor to the minister for 30seconds. Our government will ensure the privacy of Canadians is respected, support responsible innovation and take reasonable steps to strengthen enforcement powers. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, in my riding of Etobicoke Centre, we are mourning the loss of 40 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville long-term care centre. Of all Canadians who have died from COVID-19, 79% were living in long-term care homes. I understand that long-term care homes fall within the jurisdiction of provincial governments in Canada, but this is a crisis. What is the federal government doing right now to help protect our seniors who are living in long-term care homes from COVID-19? What will we do to reform our long-term care homes in the future to ensure that our seniors in Etobicoke Centre and across Canada get the care they deserve? hon. We are deeply concerned by the outbreaks of COVID-19 in long-term care facilities, and our thoughts are with those who have lost a loved one. As my colleague mentioned, while these facilities are regulated by provinces and territories, we have been focused on protecting the health and safety of long-term care residents and staff while working with our partners in a team Canada approach. We're working with the provinces and territories to cost-share a temporary salary top-up for long-term care workers. We are working through investing $2 billion to secure personal protective equipment for the health of workers, including those in the long-term care homes, and we've deployed the Canadian Armed Forces to assist 25 long-term care homes in Quebec and Ontario. We all have a role to play to stop the spread of COVID-19 and to protect our seniors and caregivers. At the finance committee, we've heard a lot of concerns from all sectors of the economy as a result of COVID-19 and we've been presented with quite a number of possible solutions as well, several of which the government has acted upon. It is very welcome support, but I sincerely believe the farm sector will be taking the Prime Minister up on the suggestion that $250 million should be seen as an initial investment. However, as a result of reduced processor contracts for next year, plus cancelled seed contracts, millions of dollars of seed and process potatoes have no home. How does the minister see Tuesday's announcement addressing potato farmers' concerns? Second, in 2013, long-term financial safety nets were gutted by the Harper government. We know the importance of our potato farmers, and that's why we are launching a first-ever surplus food purchase program, a $50-million fund designed to help redistribute existing inventories, such as potatoes, to local food organizations. On the financial safety net that we have in place for our farmers, called the business risk management program, we announced up to $125 million in funding through AgriRecovery and made changes to AgriStability that will help producers quickly. In the meantime, I want to reiterate that BRM programs, including AgriInvest, are there to help farmers in difficult times. Robyn, who has owned Arbutus Health in Tofino for over 13 years, can't apply for the Canada emergency business account loan, simply because she doesn't have a payroll of over $20,000. With no business income and without emergency financing, it is virtually impossible for her to pay her bills or come up with the 25% needed for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program. The government promised to be flexible and willing to adjust its COVID response rollout so that nobody falls through the cracks, but Robyn, like tens of thousands of proprietors who are the economic job creators of our communities, urgently needs the government's help now. Will the government amend its programs to help more business owners so that people like Robyn don't lose their businesses? hon. I know he and I have talked about this, and I appreciate the input and the feedback that he is providing from business directly. I want to assure Robyn and her businesses, and many businesses across the country, that we are absolutely listening, and we will continue to make sure we are supporting those businesses during this period. We also know that more has to be done, and we will continue to work with you and businesses across the country so that we can indeed give them that necessary support to weather this difficult period of COVID-19. I was talking to Heather last night, who also owns a business in Tofino, Basic Goodness Pizzeria, with her partner Marco. Like many proprietors of family businesses who aren't on payroll, they don't qualify for the business loans. Now with the new rollout of the rent support, they're not sure if their landlord is willing to play ball and even apply. Heather was in tears last night as she told me that they have done nothing wrong to deserve being excluded from these emergency programs. Will the government fix the rent support program so that tenants can apply, instead of leaving it up to landlords, and so businesses can get the help they desperately need? hon. We've been working on offering a response for small businesses and charities and non-profit organizations, and we are continuing to listen on the ground to how we can better assist the businesses that fall through the cracks. Chair, when the government rolled out its commercial rent support program, why didn't it negotiate an eviction moratorium with the provinces, as Australia and other countries did, to protect business owners? hon. We've recognized it and we've been working with the provinces and territories to implement the Canada emergency commercial rent the chair: We'll go back to Mr. gord johns: To qualify for the Canada emergency wage subsidy, a 30% drop in revenue has to be shown. Anyone who's owned a business knows that even with this program, it's going to be hard to survive. Why is the government using a 70% measurement drop to qualify for the rent support program, but a 30% drop for the wage subsidy? hon. We've been working with provinces and territories to provide forgivable loans to commercial property owners, who in turn lower the rents for their tenants by 75%. We're hoping that tenants and landlords will be working together so we can support businesses during this very difficult crisis. the chair: Before we move on to the next question, Mr.Berthold, did you have a question or a point of order? mr. I checked the clock from the first round of five minutes, and as you may recall, it took a very long time for me to get an answer from the government. During my first turn, it took 50seconds before a government minister deigned to answer my questions. After checking my time, I realized that the discussion between Ms.McKenna and I went on for four minutes and 14seconds, so I wasn't able to ask the minister one final question, a very important one. I would ask you to take that into account and allow me to ask MinisterMcKenna one last question, please. the chair: The person chairing the meeting uses their judgment and does their best to keep an eye on what's going on. I think it's more or less equal for all the members, but I apologize if the honourable member feels that he was denied a few seconds. bill blair: The decision to close the border was made in Canada by Canadians in the best interest of Canadians. todd doherty: When will the government be in a position to inform Canadians of any changes to the agreement? hon. bill blair: I'm pleased to advise the member that we're continuing to monitor the situation, but I'm strongly of the opinion that the circumstances on both sides of our border do not indicate that this is the right time to make a change in the restrictions. todd doherty: Can the government confirm whether there are any discussions about reopening the border to certain modes of transportation and restricting others? the chair: Before I go to the minister, I want to remind the honourable members that we do have translators, and they are trying to translate. With respect to them, I know we're trying to get as many questions in as possible, but they do have to translate them, so please be considerate of our interpreters. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Let me please inform the honourable member that we are, of course, aware that the current agreement expires. navdeep bains: We are engaged with the industry, and we are working with them on a solution, Mr. Chair, will this relief package include funding for airline ticket refunds similar to what other countries around the world have done? Yes or no? hon. Chair, I can confirm that Air Canada has now adopted a policy of checking temperatures for passengers boarding Air Canada flights. Last week I asked the Minister of Labour if they were aware of a letter written on April 6 by CUPE to the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Labour. Minister, were you aware of that letter? the chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair and not directly. todd doherty: On April 6, CUPE wrote a letter to the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Labour. Before that I had conversations with CUPE with respect to flight attendants and the use of personal protective equipment. todd doherty: Can the minister confirm whether or not they have provided PPE to the flight attendants and/or training for front-line staff for airlines and airports? hon. This has become a policy to ensure the safety not only of passengers on board but also of the flight attendants and flight crew. He stated that he couldn't give his small business tenants a break on rent because the government is penalizing him for paying off his mortgage. Chair, as you know, we laid out the CECRA program just last week, and we are encouraging landlords to take that opportunity to support the renters. Is the minister aware of this, and are they trying to revise the CECRA program? hon. mona fortier: As you know, we've been working with provinces and territories to present that program. We are asking, actually encouraging, landlords to do their part and help tenants, like the one you mentioned, go through this. It's been heartbreaking, frankly, to hear that everything they've built and sacrificed for is in serious jeopardy, and through no fault of their own. Your government has created programs that are supposed to help them, but many legitimate businesses aren't able to apply. I'm hoping to hear specifics, not just nice words, on what you're going to do to help them. First, businesses that recently incorporatedfor example, in late 2019are unable to apply their entire 2019 payroll. As a result, many are falling short of the $20,000 payroll threshold required to qualify for this loan. What is your government going to do about these three scenarios? the chair: I just want to remind honourable members to place their questions through the Chair and not directly to the minister. As well, please take into consideration the interpreters, who have to listen and translate, so that we can have this conversation. Right from the very beginning, we've always said that we will listen and that we will work to make sure that measures go out to help our Canadian small businesses. She's absolutely right: 98% of all our businesses in this country are small businesses, so they absolutely contribute enormously to our communities and are job creators. For the Canada emergency business account, over 550,000 small businesses have been approved and are getting that support. I can assure the honourable member that we will continue to do this work so that businesses, all businesses, are supported, whether it is helping keep your employees together, helping with rent support, helping to keep your business's expenses low, or of course helping with the capital that is needed so that you can pay your operating expenses and your bills through this difficult time. Moving on, there are two issues regarding the 50% commercial rent assistance subsidy, where landlords pay 25%, the government pays 50%, and the tenant is responsible for 25%. First, many of the small landlords aren't able to take a 25% hit to their income, and are unable to provide the subsidy to their tenants. Second, with the 70% decline in revenue threshold for small businesses to even be eligible for the rent assist, many restaurants are at 65% or 67% decline. What is the government planning to do to streamline this program for small businesses that can't access but desperately need the rent subsidy? hon. Chair, as the Minister of Official Languages, I just want to raise the fact that interpretation is very complicated right now. In order to make sure that we can continue to uphold bilingualism within the House, I would love it if my colleagues could take down the pace a bit. I just want to remind everyone again that when you're asking a question, make sure you are doing it at a pace at which you're considering the people who are interpreting ms. mona fortier: As you know, we've been working with the provinces and territories to provide this forgivable loan to commercial property owners, who in turn lower the rent of their tenants by 75%. It will be very important that we understand what happens across the country, and we will monitor and adapt the program as we ms. Chair, it has been in the media quite a bit that this rent subsidy is not helping many, many, many small business owners. It's falling short of everything that was announced, so I think it needs to be taken a bit more seriously than that. We know that some still fall through the cracks and we will look at how we can continue to support businesses across the country. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): We are now going to Mr. Three weeks ago, on April 17, the Minister of Canadian Heritage announced funding of $500 million to assist Canada's arts, sports and cultural sectors. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): Madam Chair, we will be releasing the details of that announcement, and how the money is going to be spent, in the coming days. kevin waugh: We all know that many media organizations, large and small, in Canada are struggling right now. Allegations have arisen that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, is currently engaging in predatory behaviour and taking advantage of the current situation to harm its competitors using rate cuts. kevin waugh: Local community and ethnic media outlets and papers have strong ties to their communities that often go much deeper than the major media outlets. Is the government currently using any local or ethnic media outlets to provide crucial coronavirus information through advertising? hon. We need to get the information to Canadians on COVID-19, which is why we have started an ad-buy campaign of $30 million, which is being distributed in more than 900 local, regional and national newspapers across the country and 500 radio and TV stations in 12 different languages, including Farsi, Mandarin, Spanish, Italian and many more. It has received two ads from an ad agency in connection with the $30 million the government is doling out to help media outlets. Is this the kind of money you're attempting to dole out to help media: two ads in eight weeks? hon. steven guilbeault: Madam Chair, we have been doing a number of things for our media in Canada over the last few months and will continue to do so. On top of that $30 million ad-buy campaign, we have been investing $50 million in local journalism. Just this year, it means that 200 journalists will be hired in areas across the country where journalism is more poorly defined. kevin waugh: Madam Chair, last week, as the minister would know, 15 community newspapers, including eight in Manitoba and seven in the province of Ontario, closed their doors for good. Is the government currently planning any further measures aimed at assisting community or ethnic media organizations? We understand that many more will close their doors within the next 30 to 60 days. steven guilbeault: We are planning a number of other measures, some of which will be included in the $500 million. Of the $595 million that the media will receive, we have a tax credit that has now entered into force, and the cheques should be in the mail by the end of the summer. So there are a number of things we've done and a number of things we will be doing in the coming months as well. kevin waugh: Well, finally, you have the five members associated with that committee to dole out the $595 million. colleague that in order for us to provide tax breaks for the 2019 period, media outlets had to file their tax returns so we could go ahead. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): Thank you, MadamChair. This being the first time I've had the floor during a virtual sitting of Parliament, I'd like to take this opportunity to greet my fellow members, all 259participants. I'd like to talk about the Prime Minister's appearance on the show Tout le monde en parle. This is what he had to say about his economic recovery plan: We are going to remain focused on the economy as a wholeinnovationresearch and science, the green economy and a fairer economyThere are things we are all reflecting on right now that reflection is going to continue. Can the government assure Canadians that it is being proactive and working on a plan to get the economy moving again? It must act now. Our government is wholly committed to restarting the economy, and we are working closely with the provinces to do just that. Last week, our government, together with the provincial and territorial premiers, released the principles that will guide efforts to restore economic activity across the country. jol godin: MadamChair, before we go any further, since it took a while for the minister, or the government, to answer the question, can I have that time back to ask questions? the acting chair (mrs. The Prime Minister's answer during his appearance on Tout le monde en parle didn't inspire much confidence and doesn't line up with the Deputy Prime Minister's comments. How can the government be proud of announcing $252million in assistance for the agri-food sector, when that is less than 1% of all the program funding the government has committed to help Canadians get through the COVID-19 crisis? Clearly, the government doesn't see the food supply chain as a priority and has no regard for farmers and pork and beef producers. Does the government realize that eating is vital to Canadians? When is the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food going to adjust the program and show respect for Canadian farmers? hon. This week, we focused on beef and pork producers and processors, as well as sectors with product surpluses that can be redirected to food banks. I can assure my fellow member that this is an additional step and that more supports are on the way in the weeks ahead. PortneufJacques-Cartier is home to a company that is already licensed by Health Canada and that, for 20years, has been manufacturing medical equipment including masks, face shields and thermometers. In mid-March, Health Canada reached out to the company to find out how much equipment it could manufacture to help fight COVID-19. The company confirmed that it could immediately start producing 200,000masks a week, ramping up to a million masks over the next few weeks. Can the health minister tell us why, 45days later, this company licensed by Health Canada hasn't received an order? hon. Industry and suppliers have enthusiastically answered our call to equip Canada with products and goods during the crisis. Seniors living alone are most at risk of economic insecurity, particularly single senior women, as gender inequality in the job market has translated all too often into inadequate retirement income. Madam Chair, can the minister commit to implementing a poverty reduction plan that addresses the unique challenges faced by older women? hon. deb schulte: Madam Chair, I want to assure the member that we are quite aware that this pandemic has typically affected single seniors, and many of those, given that they live longer, are single senior women. I want to assure her that we are working on this issue, and we have provided some supports already through measures such as the GST supplementary payment. jenica atwin: Madam Chair, older women represent a high proportion of residents in long-term care facilities. Having spent their lives caring for parents, children and often their partners, they find themselves needing care in nursing homes. Multiple outbreaks of COVID-19 in long-term care homes in Canada have highlighted systemic gaps that senior and elderly women may face in such facilities, as well as the working conditions of the female-dominated ranks of nurses and personal support workers. Madam Chair, can the minister commit to implementing a federal strategy for long-term care homes that recognizes quality of life for residents and working conditions for the employees, ideally one that goes hand in hand with a poverty reduction plan and enhanced home and community care investments across the country? hon. We are obviously deeply saddened by the outbreaks that have been going on in long-term care facilities and those who have lost their lives. We do recognize that the administration of long-term care and palliative care is the responsibility of provinces and territories; however, we have been taking a team Canada approach, and as you already know, we've been doing tremendous work with them to try to ensure that those who live in those facilities can be well cared for and safe. jenica atwin: Madam Chair, from May 4 to May 10, we are observing Mental Health Week. We know that our essential workers right now are experiencing unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety, on top of putting their own physical safety and health on the line. Most of these workers work in precarious jobs with no access to paid sick leave or vacation, and without any benefits to access mental health services. Apart from the very welcome investments in online resources, can the minister explain how the government will support these workers now and once the crisis is behind us? hon. I'm so glad that she's raising the issue of mental health and in particular how poor mental health is oftentimes connected to our socio-economic status. We do have new resources that are available to all Canadians free of charge through the Wellness Together portal, but there is more to do. I think the announcement of top-up wages, for example, which the Prime Minister spoke about today, is another example of how we're taking the health and wellness of all low-income Canadians very seriously. We know that mental health is not divorced from socio-economic status, and I look forward to working with her more on other measures that we can take together. jenica atwin: Madam Chair, we're all very aware of the importance of temporary foreign workers and their role in ensuring our food sovereignty across this country. How are we protecting them? Madam Chair, will the government take action to strengthen legislation and ensure Canadians have access to the food they need while the workers who help bring it to our tables have safe working conditions, regardless of where they are working in this country? hon. We are very concerned, as are countries around the world, that we support and create the environment for the health and safety of our temporary foreign workers and we value their contribution to our food supply chain here in Canada. We have issued guidelines to employers and are working very closely with local public health authorities in the provinces and territories to make sure workers are protected, that physical distancing and other recommendations are adhered to and that there are severe consequences if employers don't take care of their workers. alistair macgregor (cowichanmalahatlangford, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. My first question is this: Will the Liberal government prevent federal bailout funds from going to companies that use tax havens and avoid paying their fair share here in Canada, yes or no? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): We are working to make sure that anyone who tries to circumvent the rules faces serious consequences. Anyone who abuses the program could face fines of up to 225% of the subsidy amount as well as five years in prison. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, I didn't really hear a yes to that question, so I'll repeat it. Does the government really think it's appropriate for tax-avoiding corporations to receive funding provided for by taxpayers? hon. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, the agriculture funding announced by the government earlier this week amounts to less than 10% of what the Canadian Federation of Agriculture estimates will be required to help farmers weather this crisis. I have to remind my colleague that we have put in $5 billion through FCC, $50 million for the temporary foreign workers, two times $50 million for pork and beef producers this week, and $77 million for food processing. This is only the beginning, and we should not forget that the business risk management programs are still there to offer support. alistair macgregor: Yes, Madam Chair, but we're nearly two months into this pandemic and this announcement only came this week. marie-claude bibeau: Madam Chair, we are working closely with the farmers and their representatives to identify where the gaps are, but once again, we have made improvements to the AgriStability program. They can get, depending on the province, either 50% or 75% in advance payments, and they can also, right now, access their AgriInvest program. There is more than $2 billion ready to access today, if they have the acting chair (mrs. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, federal disability recipients and seniors on fixed incomes have been hardest hit by cost of living increases from COVID-19. If we acknowledge that $2,000 per month is the minimum needed to get through this time, why are they being asked to survive on far less? When can they expect assistance, and how much will they receive? hon. deb schulte: Madam Chair, I want to make sure people realize that we have provided some assistance through the GST supplementary benefit. We are also providing support to those who are still working, and we have done that by allowing them to access the CERB. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, as I think we've heard through today's question period, there are countless example of this government designing programs to exclude many small businesses that desperately need help. Whether it's the payroll requirements or other eligibility, we still, to this day, almost two months into the pandemic, have too many small businesses falling through the cracks. Madam Chair, why has the government taken this approach and when can we finally expect fixes to the whole system? hon. mary ng: Madam Chair, right from the get-go, we have been committed to making sure that Canadians are helped through this crisis, and that small businesses get the support that they need, so that we are saving businesses and jobs in this country. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I hear the questions my fellow members are asking, and to be frank, I don't find the answers satisfactory. It is well and good to talk about existing programs, but they aren't working, so enough with that refrain. This morning, both farmers and processors came together for a press conference at the Union des producteurs agricoles's head office in Longueuil. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food therefore tell us when she will announce significant supports for the industry? hon. marie-claude bibeau: We have already announced significant amounts of support, and more is on the way. It's not that the programs aren't working; it's that they aren't generous enough in farmers' eyes. That's why I'm working with my provincial counterparts to make improvements to programming, including AgriStability. After using the online AgriStability benefit estimator, a pork producer found out that he would get $11 per head, as they say in the industry. Pork producers are calling for $20 per head, so it's a good start, even though it's not enough and it isn't what they are asking for. We want to keep working together, but farmers have to access the money available to them through AgriStability. Even before the crisis, we were hearing from people in the industry that the programs were neither suitable nor sufficient. A few days ago, the government announced $50million in funding for pork producers, even though they are asking for $20per hog for 27million hogs. When is the government going to announce a whole lot more in funding support? What's been announced so far is only 10% of what farmers are asking for. However, I would point out to the member that, when it comes to AgriRecovery, we made an exception to the rule. That's two funding envelopes of $50million each to help cover the additional costs from the decrease in plant processing capacity. As the Prime Minister said, we are going to do more, and we are moving forward step by step. yves perron: What we concluded in committee this week is that the $125million is not new money. The government can't say that programs already exist and, at the same time, claim that they are new programs. Everyone knows that the Canada-U.S.-Mexico Agreement came into force a month earlier than planned, despite the promises that had been made. An easy way to make money available without committing new spending is to provide compensation and announce programs for supply-managed sectors that got nothing. It seems to me that a time of crisis is a time for the government to practise some judo and announce measures. I am reaching out to the government, as I always do, but it has to come forward with announcements. marie-claude bibeau: Our commitment to farmers in supply-managed sectorsmeaning, egg, poultry and dairy farmersis as strong as it always was. Support for poultry and egg farmers is in the form of investment programs, which aligns well with the recovery. At this time, we are focusing on emergency programs to help farmers hardest hit by the COVID-19 pandemic. As you know, legislative changes are needed to grant the Canadian Dairy Commission's request and increase its borrowing limit by $200million so it can buy more butter and cheese. Chair, we're all inundated, as we've heard during this entire question period, with Canadians' concerns about the economic restrictions and the social restrictions that they're under. Over the last couple of months, the WHO has given one very consistent message in terms of coming out of those economic and social restrictions. Tedros said in his briefing, We have a simple message for all countries: test, test, test. On March 25, 44 days ago, he said, Aggressive measures to find, isolate, test, treat and trace are not only the best and fastest way out of extreme social and economic restrictionstheyre also the best way to prevent them. Does the minister agree with the WHO that relentless testing and tracing are critical to a successful economic and social relaunch strategy in Canada? hon. Absolutely, we agree that testing and contact tracing will form an important part of our response to living with COVID. We've been investing heavily in ensuring that we have the lab capacity, the collaboration across provinces and territories, and the variety of testing options to help us increase our capacity to test. We are aiming right now for a high volume of tests, but I will also say that in Canada we have one of the highest testing rates in the world. Although we're doing well, I can assure him that I am with him and I believe we need to do more. Chair, as I mentioned to his colleagues yesterday, we have currently the capacity to do approximately 60,000 tests per day across the country. Chair, it's hard for me to get that exact number, but I will get back to him with the exact number. She said, As a first tranche, roughly close to 60,000 is where the provinces can potentially expand to as a target already. Does the minister happen to know, ballpark, what the average number of daily tests in Canada has been since that statement? hon. patty hajdu: Your estimate was slightly higher than what my estimate was going to be, so that's a great piece of news. Listen, I will just say that I think if the premise here is that we could be doing more testing. I would agree, but I will also say that the provinces and territories are working incredibly hard on testing strategies that meet their own specific needs. Tam works with all the chief public health officers across the country to ensure that their testing strategy is going to be applicable and appropriate for their particular jurisdictions. mike lake: Following up on that, is there a jurisdiction in Canada where relentless testing is not the appropriate strategy as provinces consider relaunching? hon. For example, in British Columbia, where there are relatively fewer cases in general and less disease activity, they may have a different testing strategy than a province like Ontario, which is currently struggling with more outbreaks. mike lake: Given your comment that our current testing capability is 60,000, and acknowledging that only at one point in the entire history of our COVID response, over several months, has our weekly average been over 30,000it was about 31,000 for one day on a rolling basisMinister, are you satisfied with our current testing amounts right now, given that we're testing 50% of what the public health officer advises would be best? hon. patty hajdu: I'm so amazed by the work the provinces and territories have done in a very short time to increase their capacity. We are supporting them with the tools that they need to get more testing done, but also to have other components in place that will allow them to do the rapid tracing of positive cases. I think it's very important to remember that testing strategies will be different across the provinces, based on the outbreak disease epidemiology. Having said that, I know that we can all do better, and I'm certain that my counterparts feel the same<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Julie Morgan, and I'm very pleased to welcome David Rees, who is substituting for her today. Item 2 this morning, then, is a session with the Minister for Children and Social Care on the Welsh Government's childcare offer. So, I'm very pleased to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, Minister for Children and Social Care, also Jo-Anne Daniels, director for communities and tackling poverty, and Owain Lloyd, deputy director for childcare, play and early years. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions come from Hefin David. How has it gone in the early implementer local authority areas, and is it something of a mixed bag? huw irranca-davies am: It's gone well, but I'm glad we've done it through this process of early implementer, actually piloting it, because we're learning lessons as we go along. It's been encouraging, to the extent that we're at the point where we're expanding—we've made announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons. But, in terms of what we're learning, one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we're taking, because it's being done on the seven early implementers. So, we're asking parents to come in, provide their wage slips, provide the birth certificates, and so on. You're dealing sometimes with parents and families with complex issues and complex backgrounds, so it's difficult. In one case, it's a whole authority, but it's only one—that's in Blaenau Gwent. So, we're having parents, generally, who are outside the areas entirely saying, 'Why haven't we got this yet? Can we please get into it?', which is encouraging. But the other thing we're having is people who are within pilot authorities, where it doesn't extend to the whole authority, saying, 'Well, hold on now, we think we qualify for something under universal care, we think we qualify for something on tax credits. Why don't we qualify for this?' 'Well, you're not in the pilot area.' So, we're learning about these things, but the biggest one, I have to say, is the administrative burden, and I think that's interesting in how we take this forward for a wider roll-out. hefin david am: What is the administrative burden? What specifically is that? huw irranca-davies am: It is that sheer burden on each local authority, and each pilot area, to administer a scheme where we are asking parents to prove eligibility, to bring in documents to prove their eligibility, to make adjustments as it goes forward based on what their changing work patterns are, what their salary slips say. So, yesterday, when we made the statement following the announcement of the introduction of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, we made clear that our preferred option, as put within that framework Bill, is actually to build on, and to learn from the lessons as well, the model of the HM Revenue and Customs type of model, where you actually have—and this, by the way, is supported by local authority providers out there—one system that is a centralised system, where there is clarity, that is handled, that has elements of information sharing between Government departments, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on, so that the work is done for the parents, and the work is done for the local authorities; much cleaner, much simpler. hefin david am: How confident are you that you can achieve that by 2020? huw irranca-davies am: We are very confident. But, as I say, I'm more confident in the fact that we're actually piloting it, and phasing this in, because I think we've learned from some of the experiences elsewhere, including just over the border in England, where they have a different version of a childcare offer, but they've gone for it in a big-bang approach. And it has led to technical issues, it's led to volume issues, where their anticipation of how many people would buy into it was overwhelmed by the numbers who actually then came forward for it, and the complexity, I have to say, of individual family situations, whereas what we are doing, Hefin, is taking this forward very, very carefully. Each roll-out, each expansion that we're doing of the pilot is not—and I know this has caused some people to come back and say, 'Why can't we all have it now?' It's because we're only rolling out to areas where we now need to learn a lesson about whether it's rurality or, as it will be within densely urban areas, where the cost might be slightly higher, and that's allowing us to have the confidence that we'll have it. We've expanded the whole offer across Gwynedd—the whole of Gwynedd, Anglesey and Caerphilly. Flintshire now have a cross-authority offer. Rhondda Cynon Taf is anticipating doing this by September. Swansea is planning to do it, they tell us, in due course—in short order—as well. So, we have the confidence now that, with that learning going on from different pilot areas, we'll have the full roll-out by 2020. hefin david am: Is it true to say that, in the early adopter areas, the intensity of demand for the services is not spread evenly across? huw irranca-davies am: Absolutely. hefin david am: And why is that? Is that going to cause a problem across Wales? huw irranca-davies am: No, it won't cause a problem. If we were doing this tomorrow, it would cause a problem, but what we're learning is that there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues. We're not finding a problem here with capacity, whether it's in English language provision or whether it's in Welsh language provision, whether it's in children with complex needs, we're not finding that as an issue. But what we are finding is, for example, one of the well-known ones—and I've spoken about this before—is that, in some of the south Wales Valleys constituencies, there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families. Grandparents, aunts, uncles and so on provide free, unregistered, unlicensed childcare of a sort. So, some of the aspects are cultural, but what we're also doing alongside this, whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot roll-out, is that communication with parents and providers and local authorities as well. It's about communicating what the offer is, how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to, and, critically, I think, how we do that national roll-out would be important as well. hefin david am: So, given the point you've made about grandparents and family, wouldn't it be sensible, then, to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care? huw irranca-davies am: Unregistered grandparents? hefin david am: Well, through some kind of analysis of that. huw irranca-davies am: Well, we don't think so and there are good reasons behind this. hefin david am: Is it because you say that they wouldn't be registered as carers for their own family member? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but there's a deeper reason behind that registration as well. The childcare offer isn't only to just provide childcare; it's the wider aspects that come with this. This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer. There's an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there's that 10 hours of the early education foundation years as well. So, there's an issue here with quality, about socialisation and how children learn in an environment, as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and uncles are—simply child-minding. So, the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers, which could be, by the way—because we do have them, and we're discussing this at the moment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by the care inspectorate? We're having those discussions. hefin david am: How many of them are there? huw irranca-davies am: We don't think there is a huge number, but we're trying to bottom this out at the moment. We haven't got the exact number, but we don't think they are huge numbers, but there are, in our constituencies, registered, licensed, inspected grandparents who look after other people's children in a little group of four or five or six or seven, but also their own grandchildren. Now that, I would say to you—and I know that Darren raised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedly different in the nature of it, because it's registered and licensed, than simply informal grandparents or aunts or uncles. I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us, 'I don't want to be paid for looking after my grandchildren; I look after my grandchildren because I look after them'. hefin david am: And what about the view, given that you said that capacity wasn't an issue, of the National Day Nurseries Association, which says that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Great Britain? huw irranca-davies am: I don't agree we have the most fragile, but the childcare offer gives us an opportunity to make it more resilient and more robust. We know from the early piloting, and as we roll it out, that there is the immense diversity within the childcare sector, and we're talking about everything from those very small terraced homes that have been licensed and registered to take six or seven children, to large, complex environments that perhaps are on maintained premises within school premises, provided by a voluntary or third sector organisation. So, there's immense complexity and we know that that differs across Wales, and we also know there's immense regional variation in the scale and the type of childcare offer. What the roll-out allows us to do, backed by £60 million of capital money behind it, in terms of capital development of childcare facilities, backed by a 10-year workforce development plan for childcare—and bear in mind this is bolted in as part of our foundational economy approach as well—that means, by 2020, we get to the point where we're putting the money into the capital development but also to the workforce development, because in some areas we're finding it's not to do with lack of provision and facilities, it's to do with lack of staff. hefin david am: That's fair enough, but is it realistic to think that there's going to be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, I think it is, absolutely, because, again, what we're finding is we've got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the development of this roll-out. One is the work that we're doing on the ground with the phased roll-out, so we're literally learning live time, and I have pretty much weekly or fortnightly updates on how things are going, but also there is a termly update as well. We've also commissioned additional work from Arad to look at this first phase of the roll-out that we've done to see what that tells us as well. But the feedback that we're getting from the childcare providers themselves, on the basis that we're now identifying where either the gaps in the workforce or the physical facilities are, is that, 'Yes, we can do this', because we're putting the money in, we have the strategy for the workforce development, and it's not going to be the same in all parts of Wales. It's not as if what we're saying is, 'Here's what we're going to do all of a sudden—flick a switch and we have a universality of the same type of provision everywhere.' So, let me give you one key example. Alongside this, alongside the £60 million capital fund, alongside the workforce development, we've also identified a separate strain of money into cylch meithrin. We're specifically putting money into developing that, and, in fact, the first one of those will be, from that new tranche of money, opening up, I think, in September. They anticipate, as part of our big strategy with Welsh language development, we'll have an additional 40 of those by— jo-anne daniels: Thirty. huw irranca-davies am: It's an additional 30 by 2020, and an additional doubling of that in the 10 years after that. We can't take this for granted, Hefin. hefin david am: The last thing from me: the £4.50 single national rate—is there a danger that we might be creating a kind of EasyJet-style nursery provision where you get the basics but the wealthier parents are going to be able to pay for better care within those settings because of the add-ons? huw irranca-davies am: We really mulled over this a lot and discussed it, I have to say, not only internally but with childcare providers out there and with parents as well and with local authorities. The first thing to say is the £4.50 rate that we've set has been welcomed, and it's been welcomed because it's unlike the much more complex offer that's in England, where there's a variable rate and there are lots of determining factors on it and it's added complexity and confusion. hefin david am: Can I just ask there, it's been welcomed perhaps in Blaenau Gwent, but has it been equally welcomed in Cardiff? huw irranca-davies am: No, because we haven't rolled it out in Cardiff yet, and that is a salient point. But will it be, then? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, it will be. Some of the more expensive areas like Cardiff and Newport are knocking on our door saying, 'Please can we have this offer?', and we are keen to give it to them. But, as I say— hefin david am: But do you anticipate a capacity problem with the £4.50 in those areas, compared to, say, the Cynon valley? huw irranca-davies am: We can't anticipate it yet, Hefin, but that's exactly the reason for going into that area and then assessing how it works. We're reasonably assured by the feedback that we're having that the £4.50 might work as a universal amount. But if we learn, when we roll it out in Cardiff and Newport, that there needs to be some variation, we can look at that, because we're not doing a big-bang approach. So, that is part of why we will move to roll it out within Cardiff and Newport and other more expensive areas and learn from it, but at the moment, I have to say, the £4.50 amount has been welcomed—it's appropriate. You touched on the other aspect, though, of the wider aspects of beyond the £4.50, because the £4.50 doesn't cover everything. The £4.50 is a contribution towards the wraparound childcare element but it doesn't cover—and we agonised over this—the issues of things like transport out on trips or food or snacks and things like this. Now, we did agonise a number of things that brought us to the conclusion where we are. I have to say, this hasn't been ivory-tower stuff; it's been in discussion with the providers but also parents. One: parents are quite used to—with childcare settings and play care settings and so on—the idea that providers are quite different. Some providers charge a fee that does everything in one; others provide simply the childcare element but they tell the parents—and I'm used to this as a parent myself, although mine are older now—'Mr Irranca-Davies, when you sign on, just to be aware, if we do take your kids down to St Fagans, there's going to be a little bit of a charge for that' and so on. hefin david am: That's fair enough, but it would be the lowest-income working families who would be most unduly affected by that, because the higher income families would be able to afford those add-ons, the lower income ones won't. Isn't that a concern? huw irranca-davies am: If money was absolutely no object, then I think you'd be looking at quite a different offer, but it has to be affordable within what we've got as well. The fact that parents, including those who are on lower incomes, are used to currently discriminating between providers, not only with childcare settings but also within school settings as well, where very often schools now will say, 'We're doing something extra'— hefin david am: That may be the case, but it's not fair, is it? huw irranca-davies am: In a pure argument about equity, and if funding was no object and if the burdens of austerity were released and we were told we had money—'You can do what you want'—I think you'd be looking at a very different approach. But within what we have, I think this works very, very well indeed, because it's very transparent for parents who are used to making these decisions. But within those additional hours, you may be with a local provider in the middle of Powys that actually says, "Within that we provide everything"; you may be with a provider that says, "Well, actually, we do a whistles and bells thing and we take them out on trips, but it's up to you if you want to come, and here's the additional cost—".' Parents are used to making that decision and realistically, in terms of what we can do with this offer, this is actually—the arguments around this have been well rehearsed both with providers and with parents and we're not getting any concerns that this is going to unnecessarily disadvantage. In a total fairness argument, would you make it universal and with no additional charges? Well, possibly you would. But we work within the realistic— hefin david am: Or have a lower top-end income limit. huw irranca-davies am: Depending on how the Bill progresses in the main Chamber and when it goes through committee, there's that flexibility built into the Bill that those things can be looked at over time and adjusted. For the moment, I think there is an attraction, in terms of the upper limit, of saying: one—'Let's try not to add additional complexity, let's go with a scheme that's already working its way through the system, which is, if you like, what they're doing in England, and not add additional complexity. But, secondly, there is an appeal to universality, curiously, in saying to all parents—and I say this regardless of political hues across the committee here—there's an attraction when you say, 'Let's make an offer focused on working parents as it is', as universal to those working parents as possible, and avoid the administrative costs of saying, 'Well, let's take the upper limit down to £80 or £60 or £55.' There's always the question of how much additional cost is incurred in actually doing that tweak of complexity. darren millar am: Just to ask, the labour market costs are changing, aren't they? You've got the national living wage increasing—[Inaudible.]—that's going to have a bearing, isn't it, on the affordability of this project in terms of the childcare offer and the suitability of the £4.50 per hour regime? By the time it's fully rolled out, of course, that £4.50 rate is going to be a number of years old, for example. Do you have plans to review that? Where is it headed? Because it's certainly not going to be enough in the future. huw irranca-davies am: It depends how far in the future you're looking. I have to say, the feedback that we're having at the moment from organisations like the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and from the National Day Nurseries Association Wales and others is that this is the right rate and it's suitable not only today but for the foreseeable future of rolling this out. darren millar am: But they've raised concerns about the national living wage implications, haven't they, as well? huw irranca-davies am: Of course, and I think it's incumbent on us as well to not— darren millar am: So, it's not fair to say that they haven't raised concerns about the rate. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but what they're not arguing for at the moment is for this rate to be raised. darren millar am: But they have suggested that in meetings— huw irranca-davies am: That in future— darren millar am: Absolutely. huw irranca-davies am: Well, of course, in future, any Minister, any committee, will want to come back and look at—is the hourly rate, as one element of the scheme, appropriate to the current financial challenges for the sector, and not least, by the way, as we try not only to develop the workforce, but to develop the career pathways through this as well? And I think that's the right discussion to be had, live time, as this is taken forward. But at this moment in time, we're not getting people saying within this part of the roll-out that we need to adjust this amount. darren millar am: So, have you forecasted for any adjustment in the rate going forward in terms of affordability of the project? Because you've still got this £100 million price tag on it, haven't you? huw irranca-davies am: Similar to the point that was raised with Hefin about Cardiff and Newport, if we identify that the rate is not appropriate, if it's—. I don't think anybody's going to come back to us and say that it's too little. But do bear in mind that it's above where the average England rate is, even though there's this complex variability within the English rate that has caused some confusion there, which is why the universal rate with us has been welcomed. If we find, as we pilot it, or if we find because there are more expensive areas for it to be delivered in, there needs to be adjustment, then we'll be back in front of the committee arguing why that needs to be the case. darren millar am: But that won't put the project at risk in terms of its finances? huw irranca-davies am: No, no. We are still very confident, looking forward, on the best projections we have, fed by the live input that's coming in from the pilot, which will be fed again in the autumn—the Arad report coming forward—that we have not only the capacity to actually deliver this—challenging as this is, we have the capacity to deliver it—but also that the funding that's available, on our best estimate—the estimate we've stood by, that broad ball park of that £100 million figure—it's deliverable within that. And if it changes, I'll have to be sitting down with my boss, Vaughan Gething, and with Mark Drakeford, to argue the case on it. But that rate, combined with the other elements of this childcare offer—there is sufficient there allocated to actually deliver the whole roll-out. mark reckless am: Minister, as a parent who's been researching childcare options, it's obvious to me that in Cardiff, and to a degree in Newport and Monmouthshire, costs are substantially higher than this, and I haven't been able to find anywhere that has a six-hour day for £27, which is implied by your rate. Isn't it the case that rents and wages are higher and therefore you're going to need a higher rate to make it work? Isn't that already obvious? Why are you postponing coming back and looking at this until some point in the future? huw irranca-davies am: Chair, my biggest fear is a parent who's actually involved in this area already, but, having been one myself—. Mark, you may be right, that's exactly why we're piloting it and that's why when we pilot in Cardiff and Newport, we know we have lessons to learn over the affordability and the £4.50 per hour rate. mark reckless am: But you're not piloting it in any of the high-cost areas that I've referred to. mark reckless am: When are you starting? huw irranca-davies am: Cardiff and Newport—September. The reason we've gone for the other areas first, by the way—please take this back to any authorities affected—is simply because we've done deep dives into areas that vary from very rural areas in mid Wales, areas in north Wales, areas around Welsh language provision, areas in deep valleys, understanding the cultural and the economic impacts. So, we've held back a little bit from going into what we know is an obvious challenge within the more expensive areas of provision. But it's coming, it's imminent, and we'll learn the lessons from it. And do you know, you may be right? And if you are right, that it's more expensive, and we need a higher rate within those areas, then we're going to have to come back and discuss it with the committee. lynne neagle am: Just before I bring David in on the issue that Hefin raised about the chargeable items, your paper says that providers can charge up to £7.50 a day for food, snacks, transport and consumables such as nappies. Now, that's £37.50 a week, which is a lot of money for parents, and I just wondered if you wanted to comment on that figure? But also, do you think there's a risk that providers who maybe aren't charging at the moment may start charging because of any new pressures that arise because of this scheme? huw irranca-davies am: I think they're the right areas to flag up, and if I thought that was going to happen I'd be concerned as we take this forward and design this scheme. I think part of the evaluation from Arad will also show us that—whether or not, within the pilot areas that we are already in, which are quite diverse, that is happening. We're only one term into learning the lessons, by the way, but I would want to make sure that we design a scheme where we are not heaping on disadvantage or where there was exploitation of disadvantaged families. I think also, by the way, that providers know that this is a collaborative effort to do this here. It's not in their interests, I have to say, as the umbrella bodies or individual providers, to see this as some way that they can unduly rake in additional income from this on the backs of poorer families. But especially, I have to say, the early evaluation that we've seen already suggests that the greatest proportion of those who are taking advantage of this scheme in the early parts—in the early evaluation—are those who are below the average working wage within in Wales. That's by far the greatest number of people who are doing it, and we don't want them then being priced out because of add-ons. So, there has to be some pragmatism, I have to say, and some open partnership working here with the sector, and we do have that. john griffiths am: I want to come back to the £4.50 rate, but in terms of working with the sector, briefly, if I might, Chair, I just wonder, Huw, in terms of that £4.50 figure and understanding the sector in Wales, to what extent are we talking about a market rate and to what extent are we talking about the increase in demand that will come from the scheme and how that relates to economies of scale and capacity? Is it purely a market rate or is there a conversation with the sector in terms of the benefits that will come from this scheme and how they should be recognised in terms of setting the rate? huw irranca-davies am: This has been a very open dialogue with the sector around affordability, around the hourly rate and around what might happen in future as well. This is not a pure hard data-driven analysis that says, 'Here we've calculated everything and this is the rate that will satisfy it', because we recognise that there's great diversity in provision out there, and we also recognise that things will change over time. I think we need to, as we take this scheme forward and look at the full roll-out, continue in that very open dialogue with the sector not about what is purely a market-driven amount but actually what is also affordable for the Welsh Government within the constraints that we have. Just to flag up one issue, it's right that we're focusing on those elements that aren't included within it, to some extent as well, and the effect of that on more disadvantaged families, but that has to be balanced with the pocket of affordability for this scheme as well. Let me give you a clear illustration: some of our calculations have suggested that if we included free food within this offer as well, it would add something like in the region of 50p to that £4.50 rate. That would have, at this moment, impacts on the affordability of this and the roll-out of it. I would need to be going back to my seniors and arguing the case now, okay? But, it's that open dialogue with the sector that says, 'There's one thing about what you're saying you demand as a market; there's another thing about what we're saying that we have affordability from taxpayers' money to actually put into this'. They also understand, John, that as well as an enabling policy—and we're seeing the evidence, by the way; I can cite it—of individuals who are being helped into more flexible options to get back into work, increase their hours and so on, this is also about building capacity in a fundamental foundation sector that is in every single part of Wales. The sector itself understands that if we boost the childcare offer in all its diversity, including, by the way, not just the independent sector but social enterprises and third-sector organisations, such as exist in Neath and elsewhere that I was involved in 20 or 30-odd years ago setting up—that has an economic impact that goes beyond that immediate family who are receiving the provision to the wider communities as well. So, it's an open dialogue on what the rate should be rather than purely, 'Our wonks have crunched the numbers and we've come up with £4.50.' lynne neagle am: David, you had a question on the pilots. Before I go to my question, I want to come back to Mark Reckless's question and the answer you gave. I got the impression that if there is a need to look at different rates because of the higher-end areas, you may therefore have different sets of rates and not a universal rate. Is that also on the cards? huw irranca-davies am: David, it's possible. I think our preference would be, I have to say, to stick with the universal rate, because we know it's—. One of the defining hallmarks of the way that we've taken this scheme forward is learning in live time as we pilot and expand the pilots into different areas and different types of provision. If we learn lessons from that that suggest we need to come back and look at a differential in more-expensive-to-provide areas, then we'll have to look at that, but there might be other ways of splicing it. We might find, Mark, we might find, David, that we go in and when everything is tallied up, the £4.50 per hour works in supporting provision there. If I can now remind you: I don't remember the word 'affordability' coming in the manifesto pledge of the Government. In the situation regarding Welsh-medium, you answered that a little bit earlier, but I have concerns about capacity. There's clearly a need to get more staff, because in your own paper you say that the report in 2016 said you do not have the childcare capacity in Wales at the moment. Do you believe that you can actually deliver the workforce to meet that capacity, first of all through the English medium, but secondly through the Welsh medium as well? Because there's a clear need to look at it. Do you actually think you've got that workforce capacity set up before this is fully rolled out? huw irranca-davies am: I hope, Chair, you'll appreciate that in our submission to you we've been very open. We have confidence that we can do this if everybody is working together across the sector, across the local authorities. Let me talk broadly about capacity, first of all, including English and Welsh-medium provision for children with complex needs, provision for children with disabilities—all of this. The work that we're doing to increase both capacity in terms of trained staff and qualified staff: we have the 10-year plan that I mentioned, which has already been announced. So, we're identifying not only broadly at a national level where we need to develop those qualifications, but also at a regional, geographic level as well, and that's being taken forward. As you can see from what I've said before, it's rolling out progressively, but with all 22 authorities we're working with them on their childcare sufficiency assessments to identify where their shortages are. david rees am: What have the pilot programmes actually shown you about this, and how are you going to move this forward? huw irranca-davies am: Well, it's precisely that. So, within the pilot areas, we have a greater depth of analysis now of where both the workforce and the physical provisions are. Whether those are maintained or non-maintained or third sector or school facilities or whatever, we've got a much deeper granulation of identifying where that is, and we're working, then, with those authorities, with the capital moneys that we've allocated to this and the workforce development, and with local colleges, to develop the workforce and the physical constraints. But we're also doing that with the other 22, with all the 22 authorities as well, in anticipation of the wider roll-out. And by the way, it's not only the Cardiffs and the Newports; it's all the other ones where there isn't full roll-out. We're engaged with them deeply at the moment with that analysis on their childcare sufficiency assessments, both in terms of workforce, but also physical provision. It doesn't mean, by the way, that we exclude the third sector or social enterprise approach, or the independent sector, but co-location could be key to the roll-out of this in the right areas where it can be done, because then we avoid any fracture between the education hours and the childcare hours: the physical transportation of children from one location to another. So, we're engaged with the 22 authorities on that: where could that be developed, who would be the providers that would do it and do they have the workforce to scale up to do it? If not, how do they talk to local colleges to do that? So, we're doing that at the moment. I mentioned we've put the £1 million additional funding into the meithrin over the next two years, targeting 40 new Welsh-medium groups by 2021, which pretty much coincides with the full roll-out of this. So, all of those things, David, give us a confidence that we're going to be in the right place. david rees am: But in particular, take the Welsh language—I understand Gwynedd, and I won't ask another question on that for obvious reasons at this point in time—but in some of the other areas where you've piloted, you've gone partial in some areas. When there's Welsh language education, and the three to five-year-olds go to schools, they go from all areas of the council, basically. They don't actually go necessarily from the local area, and therefore you're getting a different picture. Have you been able to assess the actual impact, properly, upon the Welsh-medium side of things? Because, for example, my grandchildren will go from my area, which may not be in one of the considerations, to a school that may be in that consideration, and that happens regularly. We know that historically we've got, across the country, a shortage of Welsh-language childcare provision—meithrin and so on—but we have not only a strategy in place, but the fact that we've got local authorities now doing their own assessments within their area, across the piste of childcare, but also in terms of Welsh language, that means then that we can start filling those gaps with the money we've put to it, and that includes in all parts of Wales, including those areas within south Wales and others that are less deep in their tradition of speaking Welsh over recent history, anyway, but where the demand for it is massive. So, local authorities are tasked with doing their own assessments of childcare sufficiency for this childcare offer. They're identifying the gaps, David, and we will work with them and with providers to fill those gaps, and that includes with the umbrella organisations for Welsh language childcare provision. And this does mean, Chair, that it will be different, as it currently is in different areas: the type of provision, where the provision is located. This offer won't happen unless the provision is there for those children with complex needs, children with disabilities, Welsh language provision, as well as more generic provision as well, but it will be diverse in its provision around areas. lynne neagle am: I do want to move on now, John, so if I can come back to your question. llyr gruffydd am: I would like to pick up on the last point, if I may. A question from me though, the wider question, is: how do we mainstream Welsh medium into childcare? Because, clearly, leaving it to meithrin is one way of doing it, but there's a lot of existing infrastructure out there that we need to upskill in terms of the provision of Welsh medium. So, it's not a question as such, but I'm sure you recognise that—that there is a challenge there. Because if we are to get to where we want to get to, it isn't about growing meithrin, or Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin; it's about mainstreaming Welsh-medium provision within the wider sector. So, looking at the manifesto commitment that was made in 2016, clearly the main or the principal aim of this policy is around removing some of the barriers to secure employment for parents, albeit with very positive outcomes for the children themselves, and we don't ignore or neglect that at any cost. But I'm just wondering: how would you then reconcile that with the findings of the Public Policy Institute for Wales report, which I mentioned to you yesterday, which was commissioned by the Government to look at policy options in this context, which concluded that there will be no 'substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children' and that 'the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers in families with a child of target age is extremely small'? huw irranca-davies am: Well, the first thing I would say is that what we're learning from the pilots is that it is having real-life impacts on parents, including in disadvantaged families, and we're having this fed back from real-life situations on the ground, where parents are making different choices in the areas where it's being piloted. So, the types of different choices they're making could be to expand the number of hours that they're in work, because they now have a choice, they're not constrained to certain hours or whatever, they have a wider choice, with a wider number of providers, and they're making that decision and they're able to expand their hours. Some, by the way, Llyr, I have to say—and, again, these are real-life situations—are saying, 'What we're doing is not expanding our hours, but, because of the increased provision of childcare and the increased offer, we are now able to actually spend more time with our children, because we're adjusting our hours of work, based on the childcare provision offer.' That in itself, I have to say, is a worthy aim. But I would say what we found out, in real-life examples—I'm not saying that in direct contrast to what that paper was saying— llyr gruffydd am: That's what I was going to ask; it sounds as if you're saying they were wrong. huw irranca-davies am: But what we have is the advantage of this phased roll-out, where we are learning, live time, and I think the Arad report in October—we're hoping to see the final report in October—will help put some flesh on this as well. It is already having an effect: the majority of parents who are taking advantage of this are actually in those groups that are below the average wage, they are making positive choices to get into this offer and to either expand, take more hours, adjust their own lifestyles around it or more. I can cite to you examples, because I've asked my own officials on this, of families who tell us they're saving up to £250 a week on the basis of this offer within the pilot areas, who've increased their hours of employment, who've changed their working patterns to suit their work life, but also to suit their families. llyr gruffydd am: So, in effect, you are saying that the PPIW report got it wrong, basically. huw irranca-davies am: No, I'm not saying that they got it wrong and it's wholly wrong, but it is interesting, within that report, that it did identify that there were a range of factors here that play upon this. It's not only the childcare; it is the transport, it's the training and education, it's the employment support and all of those. And we agree with that, but we do think, and what we're seeing, live time, at the moment—maybe at some point, somebody else will produce a report beyond the Arad report in October that will say, 'Well, actually, the way this is designed, that they've done it in Wales, is having a material effect on those families, particularly the most disadvantaged families.' llyr gruffydd am: But you're asking us to support a Bill here, albeit a framework Bill, to achieve a policy aim where you're giving us anecdotal evidence that it's having an impact, contrary to research that's previously been done, albeit with promises that, maybe, an evaluation sometime in the autumn might tell us a different story. huw irranca-davies am: We know, and we are constantly told—I'm sure this is commonplace in constituency surgeries, as well—by parents who say that the biggest mitigating factor for them, actually, either going into work at an earlier opportunity or expanding their hours is purely the cost of childcare in front of them. I think our further reports, both Arad and as we go forward with the pilots, will substantiate this more. It'll go beyond the anecdotal, it will show that parents are having an enhanced opportunity to balance their work life, to make better choices, either in terms of expanding the number of hours they're working and increasing their disposable income within their families, or actually making it simply better for them in their family situation, where they don't currently have that offer. So, I get the fact that we have one report out there, but it's one report. It's a report, and we're not dismissing it entirely, but what we are saying is: we are now working with real-life piloting of an offer, and we are seeing the benefits coming through. As we roll this out, we'll be back in front of this committee saying, 'Well, this is now what we're finding. We can go beyond the real-life stories that I'm relating to you now, and we can say, "Well, here's some hard data that goes with this, as well."' llyr gruffydd am: Okay. You reference in your paper, as well, another report, which is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report, 'Starting Strong 2017', and it highlights countries that have, maybe, the most similar childcare offer to what's being proposed here in Wales. I'm just wondering what assessment you've made of those similarities, because, clearly, there'll be different economic contexts in different countries and different levels of public expenditure, et cetera. huw irranca-davies am: We haven't done really detailed analysis of comparisons with other countries far from Wales, but we will be doing work that will be doing some benchmarking against, where we can find similar models, where appropriate—do some appropriate benchmarking. What we have been doing is looking at what's been happening across the border in England and trying to learn from the lessons there, and also the offer in Scotland as well, which are both close to hand. But we will do some work, Llyr, around benchmarking against good comparative international examples, where appropriate. llyr gruffydd am: Yes, there we are, because one of my concerns was that the focus in a number of the countries in the OECD report are for nought to three-year-olds, whereas, of course, the policy focus here is for a slightly older age group. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, and I fully get that, but again, and I know it can be said, 'Well, this is an example' but it's real-life examples. We are having people who are telling us that they're now making the choice to go to work earlier because this is extended to three-year-olds, but they would have delayed. There is a direct outcome there if this childcare offer enables somebody to say, 'Well, I'm going to go a year earlier back into work and bring income into the family.' llyr gruffydd am: Okay. So, moving on, then, to the impact on the child and this whole question around school readiness, of course, which is an important one to address. Clearly, one of the main outcomes of this policy will be the academic performance of children, hopefully, later on in life. I want to come back to this point that the Children's Commissioner for Wales and others have raised: the concern that, actually, the most disadvantaged—those from workless households—are being excluded from this policy. Isn't there therefore a risk that they'll be left even further behind? huw irranca-davies am: I've had long, detailed and positive discussions with the children's commissioner on this, and I know the children's commissioner would want a more universal offer, but I make two points on that: one is, that was not what the commitment in the manifesto was, and it's not the offer that's being taken forward now. It is a different thing, a universal offer, and there are issues around that with complexity, and also affordability. But it isn't the offer that we took forward into Government; this is what we're taking forward. I'd say two significant things on it: one is, this doesn't stand alone purely as 30 hours of childcare. Within this, there are 10 hours of the foundation years, educational input, which is there for everybody. But before that, particularly for those disadvantaged families, before we even get to that stage, you have schemes such as Flying Start, and I know this committee has looked in detail at Flying Start and has said that it would like to see it rolled out everywhere. If I had all the money under the sun, I would really do that, Chair; I would really do it. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but the fact that Flying Start, we know, is leading to those outcomes where those children, in quite challenged circumstances very often, are more ready to step up to the foundation year, are more ready, then, to step through into mainstream education in later years—those things tie together. So, there are the 10 hours of education provision that sits here for every family, by the way, within this offer, let alone the childcare. That doesn't mean that everybody's excluded, but it does mean, yes, that this offer is focused on working parents. In fact, it does overlap with other offers that other political parties were taking forward into the last election, which was focusing on how we support the biggest thing that we often have in our constituency mailbags, which is, 'I can't afford to go back to work because I can't afford the childcare. Don't tell me to go back to work, I can't afford it.' llyr gruffydd am: The majority of disadvantaged children don't live in Flying Start areas, do they? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, indeed. llyr gruffydd am: So, there's a missing cohort there that can't access one or the other, and the school readiness gap is growing, and, really, are we focusing our resources in the right place here? huw irranca-davies am: Well, yes, in terms of this scheme, but it doesn't sit alone as this scheme—it's the wider plethora of, I have to say, progressive and advanced initiatives that we have in Wales that take different forms. It's not only Flying Start that provides that other support for parents, and readiness not only for the parents and for their children, but also the support into work. So, if, for example, you look at the Parents, Childcare and Employment programme, which is separate from this, there is support there for every parent in terms of helping them get supported into work from disadvantaged families. If you look at the support for the children, we've got the 10 hours that sits within the sphere of the education, but we've also got all the other family intervention programmes that help with socialisation, education and so on and so forth. If you look at this solely on its own and say, 'Well, there is nothing else there; the rest of Wales is a desert and there's no support for parents, for getting parents back into work or for those parents who are not seeking to go back into work but also need the support and for their children in education', I'd be worried. But, actually, this fits as part of the jigsaw that we have in Wales, where I think we are well ahead of the other nations. Yes, we could do more, and I always say, Llyr; I always say, Chair, that if I had—I don't have a chequebook at all, because it's not in my gift—if I had a blank cheque I'd do a lot more, but we don't. But what we can do is get the right schemes in place, and if this helps drive more choices for working parents, including, by the way—. There are niceties within this as well; it doesn't have to be that both parents are working. darren millar am: I am surprised by the answer there, particularly given that one of the ambitions of the Government is to close this attainment gap later in life when schoolchildren get to their examinations, when they're 16 years old. Yet this appears to be driving a bigger wedge in terms of development, which could, of course, lead to a perverse outcome later on in life, but I don't want to ask you about that. If I can just very quickly ask you: has consideration been given to making free childcare available to parents where they're in 16 hours or more of education each week? So, they may not be entering the labour market, but, of course, one of those barriers to them getting back into the labour market could well be their education, so what arrangements are in place there? huw irranca-davies am: Darren, we have considered it, and we haven't included it within the scheme because this is designed to enable parents to go into work, not into training to enable them to get into work. There are other forms of support available for parents in terms of college and so on and so forth, but it's not this scheme. darren millar am: But it's not prescribed support, is it? You know, it's not universally available to people who might be wanting to get back into the labour market over that barrier. You must have done some costings, then, if you've considered it, and you must have tried to identify numbers. huw irranca-davies am: We haven't— darren millar am: So, you haven't considered it that much, have you? huw irranca-davies am: We have actually considered—. We consider it from the point of, 'What is this scheme set up to do?' It's very clear. But, very specifically, when you say you've considered it, what you mean is you thought about it but you've not costed it, you've not identified the numbers that might be involved— huw irranca-davies am: Absolutely, absolutely. darren millar am: And therefore you've not considered whether it might be affordable in addition to the policy objective that this is trying to meet. huw irranca-davies am: No, Darren, you're right: we haven't considered affordability because we've considered it on first principles to do with what this offer is trying to do. It doesn't fit within the offer so, as such, why would we do the costings? darren millar am: Perhaps I can frame my question in another way. Are you prepared to consider it if you're able to identify the numbers and potential cost? huw irranca-davies am: Ah, right, okay. We'd be interested in your thoughts as a committee, but it doesn't actually fit within the first principles of what the scheme is designed to do. Darren, can I just pick up on your point, in case you misinterpreted what I was saying to Llyr? I drew attention in my answer to Llyr to schemes such as the PaCE scheme. In Gwynedd, one of our pilot areas, they are combining the Team Around the Family with this childcare offer. It is not the case, as you've suggested then, that there is somehow more disadvantage being heaped on other families. What this does is tie in in those pilot areas with the existing provision, and that's the way we want to see it work. So, I wouldn't want you to be under any misapprehension that this makes conditions worse for families. Those families who have a registered carer in them where one parent works, and those families who have somebody on incapacity benefit will qualify for the scheme. All families will qualify for the 10 hours of education. In Gwynedd, they're wrapping the Team Around the Family with this offer— darren millar am: But on the other hand, Minister, you've also suggested that this will accelerate child development for those kids who are able to access it, and yet not all kids will be able to access it, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds. huw irranca-davies am: But all children can access the 10 hours, and they can access Flying Start— darren millar am: But 10 hours is very different to 30 hours, is it not? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but they can access Flying Start or they can access the Team Around the Family— darren millar am: If they're in a Flying Start area. huw irranca-davies am: —or they can be in a children's zone area or they can— darren millar am: If they're in those areas. lynne neagle am: Right, I've got John and then David, and the questions and answers are going to have to be brief, please. In terms of child development and how this fits with wider Welsh Government strategy, Huw, I'd be interested in what you'd have to say about the quality of childcare. We're talking a lot about quantity, but obviously we want to up quality, and that's recognised by Welsh Government. I just wonder how that sits within the £4.50, because there could be pressures in the opposite direction there, and some tension between wanting to up the qualifications and quality of workforce whilst keeping affordability in place. huw irranca-davies am: John, you're absolutely right, and two things on that: I visited one of the facilities in the Valleys the other day that was taking this forward—a very good independent sector-run childcare provision, with Welsh language and English language running alongside each other, and I asked the point about the integration, curiously, but what they were doing was—. Their standard of staff was an exemplar of what we'd want to see: not only very well-qualified childcare staff who were qualified within not simply the child-minding but the wider child development aspects—. So, it was hard to differentiate, in some ways, what was happening there from what would be happening in a child development educational surrounding, and including the nutritional stuff and all of that. Now, that is the model we need to see, and the £4.50 seems to work, at the moment, for that. But the quality, I think, is key, and that's why we're focused very much on registered inspected providers, as opposed to every Tom, Dick and Harriet. john griffiths am: If we want to increase salary levels, though, which I think is a necessary part of this picture of improving quality, then obviously that might impact on the £4.50 rate. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, indeed, and we are cognisant—. It's interesting that we focus on whether the £4.50 is affordable, but the £4.50—you know, we're having an interesting discussion internally about how that £4.50 offer per hour sits alongside others, such as the foundation phase offer, and it's more generous. So, I think it's: how do we align, as time goes by, the child development aspects of the whole early years stuff? Now, we're doing some fascinating work that I think I've referred to on this committee before about aligning the early years development entirely. Now, this is an evolving piece of work, but I think the childcare offer should ultimately fit within that. How do you make sure that every offer that is Government-funded works on child development? It's not simply childcare. mark reckless am: In terms of child development and not accentuating disadvantage, another area where this may apply is the kids who are born in the summer term, compared to those who are born in Michaelmas. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that they start with a disadvantage at school and often don't make that up, even as they go through school. What is the rationale for providing the older children with five terms of this, compared to three terms for the younger children who already have the relative disadvantage? huw irranca-davies am: I'm looking to my colleagues here and— jo-anne daniels: Well, the criteria for eligibility for the offer are the term after the child's third birthday, which is equivalent to the eligibility criteria for the foundation phase early education offer. Clearly, then, the number of terms that a child is able to, or parents are able to, access the childcare offer will be influenced by when the child is born, but I think you may be referring to a sort of parallel question, which is about whether—. There have been questions raised about whether children who are summer-born should, in fact, start school in the term after they turn four, or whether actually they should be allowed the flexibility to start school at a later age, which I know is something that has been tested in England, and there is some mixed evidence about school starting age and the birth month of children. That's the compulsory school— jo-anne daniels: Well, that's the legal position, but, obviously, in practice, most children will start school in the term after they're four. mark reckless am: So, given the disadvantage we know that the younger children born in the summer have, relative to the older ones, why accentuate that by giving the older kids five terms of this project, which you tell us will have such positive effects on their child development, but the summer kids only get three? Doesn't that make the situation worse? jo-anne daniels: I'm not 100 per cent sure I understand the question. So, children will stop being in receipt of the childcare offer once they become eligible for a full-time school place, and most children will become eligible for a full-time school place in the term after their fourth birthday. mark reckless am: But the older kids become eligible for this five terms before they start school, where the younger kids, who're already disadvantaged, become eligible for it only three terms before, accentuating the problem, surely. Could more thought be given to this issue? huw irranca-davies am: We'll take that away. Minister, you got, or Welsh Government, really, got the Public Policy Institute for Wales to study this proposed policy and they concluded that it would have no substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children, and that the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers and families with a child of target age is extremely small. What do you say to that? huw irranca-davies am: Well, Mark, I can only refer to what I said earlier. Our real-life evidence that is accumulating now is showing us examples of where people are making savings and increasing disposable income—as I mentioned earlier, up to £250 per week within some poorer households; so, real-life examples—but also where it's enabling them to make much better choices about when they work because there's more childcare offer available, or, alternatively, to work their childcare provision and their working hours around being able to spend more time with their children, which they currently can't do. lynne neagle am: And I don't want to go back over Llyr's questions. They said if you had a work requirement, as you do, it would cost £61 million a year on their numbers, substantially less than you're saying, and then they said it would cost £144 million without a work requirement. Now, that implies to me that 57 per cent of the parents wouldn't be working and would continue not working even if there is this available with a work requirement. , are those numbers really credible from PPIW? huw irranca-davies am: It's not quite comparing like with like. Just to draw your attention, Mark, and the committee's attention to that the PPIW analysis was looking at a provision of 38 weeks. And the fact that we are having parents already saying to us that their ability to actually extend that into the 48 weeks—beyond the term time and so on—carries advantages that are not picked up in that report. mark reckless am: And what is your early assessment of the income levels of families who are finding this offer most attractive? huw irranca-davies am: I think, from recollection, we're one term in, so we're one term into the assessment, and I mentioned earlier that the majority of parents are below the average income of £26,000 in Wales— it's around about 60 per cent of families are those. It's disproportionately towards those below the average income, and many of them amongst the most disadvantaged families are opting in to this offer where it is being offered. mark reckless am: And what consideration have you given to integrating this Welsh Government offer with the UK Government offer of tax-free childcare that's applicable across the UK? huw irranca-davies am: Well, that offer, as you rightly say, is available across the UK and still is. The fact that it's more integrated within their scheme within England—the tax offer is more integrated—has caused them some problems in complexity and in the administration of this and the digital platforms that they've had. That offer is still available in Wales and it might well be that parents who opt in to that say, 'Well, we do want to buy additional hours beyond the 30 hours', but this 30 hours is there for every— mark reckless am: I wonder, Minister, whether what you're doing, in a very good way, to promote your project—people will see that as the childcare offer and, at least in my experience, very few parents are aware of the tax-free childcare on a UK basis. That's absolutely one of the lessons we've learnt from even this early stage of the early implementers, because there are elements of a childcare offer within the tax offer, within universal credit, within working tax credit. So, one of the lessons that we've learnt from the Talk Childcare communication strategy alongside this is the importance of communicating to parents and providers who the parents go to what is best for them to access, how they access it easily, and we'll learn more as these pilots roll by. mark reckless am: So, as you go into the Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs criteria—you have a £100,000 cap, as well as the £6,000 minimum wage cap, and you're getting HMRC to say whether people are eligible, which requires them to set up that account with HMRC—will you assure this committee that you will make sure that parents who are doing that are aware of the UK tax-free childcare offer, and that their providers also are? Because we've been looking, say, at the £7.50 extra per day, but, if someone's eligible for this offer, they should also be eligible for the UK tax-free childcare offer and have set up the account to do that. So, will you make sure that those parents know to pay their provider out of tax-free funds, rather than paying them the fully taxed amounts, which might otherwise happen? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, absolutely. owain lloyd: Yes, just to say, as I understand how things currently work with the English offer and TFC, when a parent applies, that automatically happens in terms of, on the one hand, they're given a 'yes' or 'no' in terms of their eligibility for the 30-hours offer in England, but they will also be told in terms of the parental account that's set up under TFC. So, that is integrated in the offer, and we'll be looking to do the same in terms of the Welsh offer. But, obviously, what we're not looking at doing in terms of the 30-hours offer is the setting up of the parental account to make the payment; the payment currently is very much between local government and the provider directly, rather than the TFC model, where the parent pays the provider. Can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending? You are, of course, back with us on 16 May for Stage 1 of the Bill, so we will look forward to seeing you then. So, if Members are content, I'd suggest that we note all of them in a block, if that's okay. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay

The Minister of Health, Hon. Patty Hajdu, emphasized the government's commitment to improving access and affordability of prescription medications for all Canadians. The introduction of PMPRB regulatory amendments aimed to make prescriptions more affordable, and Canada would remain an important market for new medicines. However, concerns were raised about the lack of direct support for seniors, who were particularly affected during the pandemic. In response, the government assured the committee that senior patients had been given appropriate attention. Huw Irranca-Davies expressed confidence in the capacity growth to deliver the product in the next few years, citing the development of roll-out and the team's real-time learning. Additionally, a separate fund was allocated to address the issue of the Welsh language in cycle meithrin. Huw Irranca-Davies highlighted the positive impact of the Flying Start program on disadvantaged children, providing 10 hours of education provision for every family. However, he acknowledged that the majority of disadvantaged children were not located in Flying Start areas.

What are Huw Irranca-Davies' thoughts on the capacity to deliver the childcare offer in the next several years, the impact of the Flying Start scheme on children, and the government's plan to provide medical assistance to the most vulnerable to COVID-19 infection?

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 13th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Chairs chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. We have amazing speakersand an amazing Speaker, but that's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber, and they do pick up everything. For those joining us via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you're not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel, and if you want to speak in French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today, so we'll continue to the presentation of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. They provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year, and the European Union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them, the neonicotinoids. This petition calls on the Government of Canada, for the sake of bees and our food security, to follow Europe's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in Canada. It raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations, which is what makes this first petition particularly timely. I am tabling a petition related to Bill C-7, the government's euthanasia bill, which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago. When some people are living in deplorable conditions, we cannot truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die. Especially in light of that new information, I commend this petition for the consideration of members of the House. The second petition is in support of Bill S-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking, put forward in the Senate. The bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor's consent. It relates to what I think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months. In this pandemic, there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more, and who are of course deemed essential services. The petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $20 an hour, in light of their service and the risks they're taking for all of us. She said that when we present petitions, we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table. the chair: I want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions, they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front, as opposed to going on for a long time. Now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes, and each statement will be for one minute. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): Thank you, Mr. Today I am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville who are part of the 52nd Mississauga Scouts. For over a decade, I've had the great opportunity to join the Scouts every year during the month of May for the door-to-door food drives. This year has been a lot different, owing to the COVID situation, but our Scouts are not used to saying the word impossible. David Chant, head leader for their cub pack, reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank. I say a big thank you to Scout leaders like David, who are strong role models for our youth, teaching them the importance of leadership, kindness and giving back. David and his group of Scouts raised over $46,000 worth of food last year for the Mississauga Food Bank and The Compass. Again, I give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young Scouts, who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): May 24 to May 31 is Tourism Week in Canada. This annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of Canada's tourism industry. This is a very important industry, and this year's Tourism Week is a little different from what it normally is. The ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel, and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns. Clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen. Operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening. While this Tourism Week is not a celebration like the one we had expected, I anticipate next year's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in Canada. Chair, Monday was a sad day in my riding of BonavistaBurinTrinity, and indeed our entire province. Please join me as I offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of St. Ed Norman, his son Scott Norman and his nephew Jody Norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past Monday. After a courageous search mission by Canadian Coast Guard auxiliary members and the Department of National Defence and Provincial Airlines, he is unfortunately still missing. Chair, I am sure the entire province of Newfoundland and Labrador, this parliamentary family and Canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men, along with their friends and families, during this difficult time. This builder of Quebec's political history drew his last breath at the age of91, late Sunday night. Mr.Dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in Jonquire. He first became involved in the Alcan employee's union in Arvida, then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor, then in the Quebec National Assembly as the member for Jonquire. He will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community, a man of integrity, a people person, who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in Quebec. On behalf of the people of the riding of Jonquire and all the people of Quebec, I offer my most sincere condolences to FrancisDufour's family and loved ones. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The pandemic has greatly affected Montreal East, particularly the riding of Hochelaga, which I represent. Today, I'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in Hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations, including Anonyme, CAP St-Barnab, CARE Montral, the Cuisine collective Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, Bouffe Action, the Centre Communautaire Hochelaga, Chic Resto Pop, Jojo Dpannage, Groupe d'Entraide de Mercier-Ouest and many others. I'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves, including the Coop Couturires Pop, to make masks. Allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours. Chair, I rise today to pay tribute to a great Albertan and former parliamentarian, Louise Feltham, who passed away this Monday after a lengthy battle with cancer. She inspired the family motto How hard can it be? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime. Her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural Alberta, the first female reeve in rural Alberta and the first woman born in Newfoundland to serve in this chamber. My thoughts and sympathies are with him, his wife Tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss. Chair, it is a great honour to speak to the House of Commons today from Whitehorse, Yukon, here on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dn First Nation and the Ta'an Kwch'n Council. As a great historic Canadian event last week, Yukon became home to Canada's first university north of 60. Yukon University will provide Yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home, expand our research capabilities and expertise on the Arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north. I encourage all students living in the northern half of Canada to look at the many programs and degrees at Yukon University to continue their studiesin some cases this year, virtuallyby remaining in the north. I want to congratulate the staff of Yukon College, who spent the last decade working towards this transition, and especially the outgoing president, Karen Barnes. First of all, from the Long Range Mountains, I too want to send my condolences to my colleague, Mr. We're all communities that rely on the sea, and we understand the importance and the tragedy, and the hard work it is being fishers. However, today, colleagues, I want to mention, as my colleague from across the way said, that it's national tourism week, so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings. The tourism economy was hit very hard, especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs. It's exciting to speak with them about how they're working on their new normal and how it's going to be developed and implemented here in the Long Range Mountains. Remember too that many of our national parks are opening on June 1, so get out and explore the park in your backyard. I look forward to working with the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, Destination Canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic, we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the COVID-19 crisis occurred. I would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of LvisLotbinire. Fine men and women committed to human dignity, volunteers, retirees, and you, who have wisely agreed to stay home, you have been part, to varying degrees, of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst. Many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again; our seniors are being cuddled, with great care, and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job. I say bravo, thank you and don't give up, even though you have already earned your place in heaven. From his laboratories at the Univerist de Montral, he worked with CHUM and the Centre hospitalier universitaire SainteJustine, renowned institutions in Outremont. They are Quebeckers, Canadians, who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives. Since coming into office, our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science. Recently, we announced new funding for COVID-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers. We are working very hard to find a vaccine for COVID-19, and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we don't even know the names of yet. Chair, citizens in my riding of AuroraOak RidgesRichmond Hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families, their friends and even strangers during this difficult period. The Aurora Chamber of Commerce and the Richmond Hill Board of Trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times. Organizations like The STEAM Project and Ganesha Temple are making and donating face masks for those in need. The Aurora Farmers' Market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us, but this year with one key person missing. Our community has lost one of the farmers' market's founders, our jam lady, Jan Freedman. My sincere thanks to everyone who's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits. We also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren, which is why it is important to be prudent, to make wise choices and, above all, to know where we are going. It's a shame that every time we ask the government a question, no minister can tell us how big the Canadian deficit is. In fact, last Tuesday, at a parliamentary committee meeting in the Senate, the Parliamentary Budget Officer made some very scathing remarks about the government. He said that there had to be a deadline or we'd be heading toward taxation levels that haven't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit. The Prime Minister needs to know that we can't play Santa Claus every day, because the bills in January come in fast, and they are high. That's why I'm so disappointed that the Liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women. Not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia, it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time. Now we've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors, when plasma is so critical in emerging COVID-19 research and treatment. More than 17 countries, including Argentina, Italy and Spain, have no deferral period for men who have sex with men. They know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules. I have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and I do so again today, but today I also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who cannot. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. On another note, the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses. In Rivire-des-Mille-les, as in many other ridings, we respond daily to businesses that don't have access to it. Unfortunately, there are people in our ridings who won't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer. It's so embarrassing that it's shameful, disrespectful and ridiculous. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. This week is Paramedic Services Week, and I would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives. Their efforts during COVID-19, like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care, such as personal support workers, doctors, nurses, janitorial and clerical staff, lab technicians and many others, have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty. I hope this week all Canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead. Chair, I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic, the cancellation of the Kinmount Fair, a renowned event that has been running since 1870. This year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary, but in true Kinmount spirit, this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the members of the Canadian Armed Forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities. Through the observations and testimonies of these members, we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time. Among many other loathsome details, they were left to starve, were abused and lived in filth, their cries of anguish ignored. It is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again. Usually there are a few extra seconds, which doesn't matter, but some of them have gone quite a bit over time, so starting Monday we'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds. I encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them, and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we don't go over our allotted time. I would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they're saying. I'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in, as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber. The government has consistently worked to shut down Parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by Zoom. However, for work of the G7 the Prime Minister said, theres no question that in-person meetings...are much more effective than even virtual meetings. By pushing to go virtual, is it the Prime Minister's goal to make Canada's Parliament less effective? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. In fact, I am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from Ottawa than I do have the opportunity to join us. Parliament plays an essential role in our democracy, and it's the chair: We will go back to Mr. A Saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online AgriStability calculator. He said that most farmers can't use it, that in fact they can't put in their inventory changes. Why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it doesn't actually work? hon. Chair, the agricultural sector is critical to our country, and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are, as Canadians, to be living in an agricultural superpower. When it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have, they should turn to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, who will be delighted to help. john barlow: Could the Deputy Prime Minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online AgriStability calculator? hon. chrystia freeland: What I can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator, but they've been told they would go broke before they received any money. Will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to Canadian farmers? hon. Chair, very many farmers, and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance, have worked with accountants for a very long time. The last time I questioned the Prime Minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data, they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the House. Will that be tabled today, in both official languages, to justify to Canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic? hon. I am proud of the sophistication of Canadian farmers, and I'm proud of the support we offer them. Some honourable members: Oh, oh! the chair: I want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via Zoom. I just want to make sure they're aware of what they're doing to our colleagues who are online. Chair, for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist Canada's energy sector. Small oil and gas companies still can't qualify for BDC loans, and last week's announcement for large employers, in my opinion, was nothing of exploitive. If the government doesn't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector, it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable Canadian jobs. After 64 days, when will the credit options be available to Canada's small and medium-sized energy companies? hon. Chair, I agree with the member opposite about one thing: The energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy, and we support them. One of the things I am most proud of is the $1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): Mr.Chair, I'll try not to spend too much time. Will the Liberal Party of Canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers, help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a no. The company doesn't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28% instead of30%. Does the Liberal Party of Canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of Val-Jalbert and Trillium Media? hon. member opposite what we're doing to support Canadians: more than 8million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers' pockets? It even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store. On the other side of the House, is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support Canadians and Quebeckers: 293applications for the Canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved. Over 2million Canadians today have the chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. It's fantastic! The money that the Liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty. When they go to get their election expenses reimbursed, they're going to get 60%of that money back. We think we all need to work together to continue to help Canadians and Quebeckers the chair: Order. alexis brunelle-duceppe: I don't know how to take it this time. I think it's necessary to stop, eject and throw the tape out, and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask. Can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question? Are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so, once again, make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, we've already seen a Duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the Liberal Party for the Liberal Party. colleague tell me if she's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they don't deserve the wage subsidy, because their loss of income is only28% or29%, while her party is dipping into the cookie jar, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help Canadians in this historic crisis. Our economic support program is the largest program in Canada's history the chair: We will now continue with Mr. Will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, that's a very important question, and I would like to thank the member for asking it. Chair, experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors, there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors. Will the Liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors? hon. Chair, I want to start by saying one thing, and that is to publicly thank, in this House, Brigadier-General Conrad Mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in Ontario. What they did is historic, and we all need to the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. However, they don't need our thanks right now; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out. What is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own? hon. Chair, I agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week, all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in Canada in the future. jagmeet singh: If all the options are on the table, will the Liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care, particularly in the Revera long-term care homes, the second-largest number in Canada, which the government owns? Will it commit to removing profit from long-term care? hon. chrystia freeland: What we will commit to doand I hope with the support of all members of this Houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners, under whose jurisdiction this falls, to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, Revera is a Crown corporation owned by the government, so let's not hear excuses. Is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for? Is it providing for robust inspections, yes or no? hon. One of the strengths of Canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions, and they serve us extremely well. Will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in Revera? As we've seen, it is facing a $50-million lawsuit, and there's been horrible negligence. Chair, as I said at the outset, the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table. I also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing, which is to work very closely with the provinces, under whose jurisdiction this falls. In just the past 24 hours, I have spoken with Premier Ford, Premier Horgan and Premier Moe, and our conversation included long-term care facilities. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Today I join critics from the NDP, the Bloc and the Green Party who deal with women's issues and gender equality to ask where the $75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone. Last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls, so the simple question is this: Where is the money? hon. I agree that human trafficking, which is a crime of coercion and exploitation, is unacceptable, and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime. As the member knows, we have launched a new, comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking, and we've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: We'll go back to Ms. karen vecchio: With all due respect, it's great that we have a strategy, but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services, a strategy is nothing. Chair, let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking. I remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports, and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: We'll go back to Ms. What should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now? What is the answer from the government? hon. Chair, no one should have to live a life with violence, whether it's sexual, physical, financial or emotional, and that the government of Canada the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. Yesterday I happened to be part of the health committee, and the Battered Women's Support Services representative was there as a witness. She shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with, over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters, did not receive funding. They are receiving funds through Feminists Deliver, but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities, and we will have more to say soon. Chair, we know that calls to centres like Battered Women's Support Services have gone up by 300 times, so this is a huge concern I have. As I said, hundreds of organizations like the Battered Women's Support Services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days. Chair, some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400% with their capacity limited by 400%. We've centres and women's shelters, and 700 have received funds, with more to come soon. I appreciate that this Parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: We'll go back to Ms. karen vecchio: If we're talking about being a feminist government, I have one single question. Yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question, so I will ask the Minister for Women and Gender Equality. How can a feminist government support the Wet'suwet'en First Nation women whose titles were stripped from them? hon. We are happy to do that, and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward. karen vecchio: These women have lost their titles, and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs. Why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles? hon. Chair, I think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations, Inuit, and Mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws. Right now the Wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like. The Uyghur Human Rights Policy Act has passed both houses of Congress in the United States and is now on the way to the Oval Office for signature. What is Canada's position on this Muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the Communist Party of China? hon. Chair, we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the Uighurs and other minorities in China. Their Muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in Bangladesh, which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic. We will continue to call on the Chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people, including the freedom of religion, are fully respected. david sweet: Yesterday the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the Communist Party of China. mary ng: Canada, with our international partners in the U.S., Australia and the U.K., made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong. david sweet: Canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak. The Suez Canal, Cyprus, the fall of apartheid, child and maternal health in Africa, and Afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how Canada has weighed in significantly. Chair, with hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in Hong Kong's stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world. david sweet: I think the 300,000 Canadians who are in Hong Kong want a little bit more than interest from the government. What exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 Canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now? hon. Chair, Canada has expressed deep concern regarding China's imposition of the new security law for Hong Kong. We are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world. After being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday, 300 students were arrested in Hong Kong while peacefully protesting. Where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the CPC is doing in Hong Kong? hon. Chair, as we have said, we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on Hong Kong. Chair, I'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that I asked. Yesterday, the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill, undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the Chinese Communist Party. mary ng: Canada will continue to support Hong Kong's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the Basic Law and the one country, two systems framework. Canada and our international partners, with the U.S., Australia and the U.K., have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Steven Blaney: I am pleased to represent the city of Lvis, because it is a privilege, Mr.Chair. It is the city where Alphonse Desjardins, who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement, was born. We thought it was to improve the program, but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between April7 and9? hon. We have added flexibilities, including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until February of next year. It remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students, with 100% of them being subsidized at 100%. steven blaney: The minister confirms that the budget remains the same, but that by subsidizing each job more, they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic. Why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic, when our young people want to work? hon. Chair, I can assure the member, all members and all Canadians that despite the fact that he's singling out the Canada summer jobs program, we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy, with an additional 40,000 placements for students. I can assure the member that we are the chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blaney once again. steven blaney: How many jobs are vacant right now? The program is lagging behind compared to other years. Why, and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs? hon. We created flexibilities in Canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions. I can assure young Canadians that there is work for them there, and I encourage them to check out the job bank. steven blaney: The minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic, when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people. Why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the Canada summer jobs program, when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic? hon. We've increased the number of jobs funded through our government's youth programs by over 100%. We've added flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this. I can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer. steven blaney: When the minister says maximize, she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same, but that each position is funded more. My question is very simple: why not fund more jobs through the Canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the Canada emergency student benefit, which does not allow young people to get work experience? We need young people and they want to work. carla qualtrough: I agree, absolutely, that we need young people to work this summer. Canada summer jobs is being maxed out, and that's a good thing, because we've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs. I can assure the member that we're creating so many jobs, and it's so exciting for our young people. steven blaney: The Canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work, and employers have difficulty hiring them. Chair, I'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work. Yesterday my colleague asked the Minister of Public Safety a question, and he did not get a good answer. Why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when Canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the U.S.? hon. Chair, to correct an error that was just repeated, we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel. We currently have an agreement with the United States that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the United States. I have another citizen who's married to an American woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back. I also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they're not allowing custody arrangements between Canadians and Americans to continue. At the same time, we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of Canadians. We've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families. Chair, the Minister of Agriculture has known there's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing. We don't have a BSE exemption that would allow us to use American processors, and there's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): We have done a great deal for the meat sector lately. We have invested $100million in the beef and pork sectors through the AgriRecovery program. That's a significant increase, because in the last few years the program has provided between $7million and $15million only. We have also invested $77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: We'll go back to Ms. What is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling, especially in this pandemic? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, once again, we have helped the meat sector through the AgriRecovery program and we have put in place a $77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: We will go back to Ms. To the Minister of National Revenue, I've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed. When will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, we consider this to be a difficult situation for Canadians, and our government will do everything it can to support them. I can confirm that the CRA is still processing paper returns, but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing, Canadians can expect delays. We regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: We will go back to Ms.Gladu. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): Mr.Chair, I have a point of order. I'm not sure whether there's anything we can do now, but we'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting. Chair, obviously with COVID, many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief. The Canadian Grief Alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling. patty hajdu (minister of health): I'm not aware of that specific proposal, but I commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and I will take a look. Can the Minister of Health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering? hon. patty hajdu: I know I don't have much time, but let me repeat our infomercial to Canadians. They should visit Wellness Together Canada, the portal that will provide access for Canadians to a variety of mental health supports, including connection to professionals. Major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future, many event venues right now, such as concert halls and fairgrounds, are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue. I can think of many in my riding, such as the Saskatoon Fringe Festival, Shakespeare on the Saskatchewan, the jazz festival, the folk festival, along with WDM and the Aviation Museum. Can the Minister of Canadian Heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): As the member knows, we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector. We have provided advance help to a number of organizations from Canadian Heritage programs or the Canada Council for the Arts on top of the $500-million program, which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations. The reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation even more disturbing. I asked the minister on May 7 about these allegations, and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them. We can't afford to have a Crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country. Has the minister begun the investigation into the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and does he have any information that he can share with us here today? hon. steven guilbeault: As the member said, these are allegations, and as you well know, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is an independent body. Chair, is that these allegations against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation came from an organization in the minister's own province of Quebec, so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the CBC, or can the government's friends at the CBC simply get away with anything? hon. steven guilbeault: Allegations are allegations, whether they are made in Quebec, Ontario or Alberta. kevin waugh: When I last rose, on May 7, the committee responsible for the government's massive $595-million media bailout package had not met. Has the committee met? If yes, when can the media organizationsand I hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised? If it hasn't met, when is it going to meet? hon. steven guilbeault: As the member is well aware, this program is a tax-break program. In order for organizations to qualify, they had to file their income tax forms, which they have done over the last few weeks. The program is in place, and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer. kevin waugh: There was $30 million rolled out to media organizations, some 1,400 organizations. Has the $30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations? the chair: Honourable minister, go ahead for 20 seconds or less, please. I would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I'm feeling generous today, and I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Pierre-BoucherLesPatriotesVerchres. At the beginning of the crisis, the government called on entrepreneurs in Quebec and Canada, inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing. Many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security, enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind. However, on May22, despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the SUB program would still be in place when the CERB was introduced, they were surprised. Employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the CERB because of the alleged gains they had made under the SUB program. At SOPREMA, one of the large employers in the Drummondville region, 150employees are affected. At Bridgestone, in Joliette, 1,100employees are affected by this decision. At Goodyear, in Valleyfield, 150employees are affected, and there are dozens more. Does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period? hon. carla qualtrough: When we put in place the Canada emergency response benefit, the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for COVID reasons. We understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward, although let me clarify that SUB plans that existed prior to March 15 are definitely in place. We consider the fact that workers have access to $1,000 a month in addition to CERBand we've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way. martin champoux: Mr.Chair, employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented, despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the CERB. Does the government intend to fix this mistake, which would simply be the right thing to do? hon. Chair, I can assure the member opposite that the SUB plans that were in place prior to March 15 are indeed in place now. In addition, employees who are now on the CERB as an alternative have access to $1,000 of income in addition to their CERB. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. On April27, Option consommateurs sent a letter to the Minister of Transport to warn him that the airlines' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to Quebec's laws. marc garneau (minister of transport): Mr.Chair, I sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund, and I understand their frustration. A few hours ago, the following motion was passed unanimously: THAT the National Assembly ask the Government of Canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund. marc garneau: Mr.Chair, as my hon.colleague knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that, in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way, it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years. the chair: Mr.Barsalou-Duval, you have about 15seconds for a question. xavier barsalou-duval: Mr.Chair, I find it rather odd that the Minister of Transport and the Canadian Transportation Agency are telling the airlines that Quebec's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them. Theoretically, under the famous Canadian Constitution, which they imposed on us, that is not how it should work. colleague probably knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm's length from Transport Canada and the Government of Canada. We're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety, including myself. Chair, I'll be sharing my time with the member for GlengarryPrescottRussell. Minister, in Etobicoke Centre, we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville Care Centre. This week, we received a disturbing report from the Canadian Armed Forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes Grace Manor in Brampton. As I said in the House of Commons on May 7, we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care. The four other MPs who represent the residents of these homes and I wrote to Premier Ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations, to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the Government of Canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country. Minister, will you call on the Government of Ontario to establish a full public inquiry, and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across Canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve? the acting chair (mr. I think all Canadians were horrified, shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country. I know the Prime Minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors, no matter where they live. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): Mr.Chair, we know that farmers across Canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months. I was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, in these unprecedented times, our producers are working that much harder to feed Canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy, particularly in terms of access to labour. To help them, this week, the Prime Minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector. This is a $9.2-million investment that will help to attract young Canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector. In early April, the NDP asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords, but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord can't or does not want to apply. On Monday we wrote to ministers again, asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants can't be kicked out. Will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during COVID-19? the acting chair (mr. We recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular, as well as landlords, are facing during the course of COVID-19. We have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants. Of course, we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces, so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps, if any, in this regard. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this, which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants. If the government won't negotiate a moratorium, will it at least let tenants apply for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50% of their rent? hon. The federal government is working through the CMHC to provide support to landlords, which is conditional on their working with their tenants, but of course, it is a provincial area of jurisdiction, so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on. Chair, they talk about wanting to support small businesses, but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business. Many people in my riding could not make rent on April 1 and May 1, and June 1 is coming up. For businesses, of course, we've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program. leah gazan: I just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question I asked. In fact, the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question. I am monitoring that, and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over. In fact, we try to cut it off at the appropriate time, allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase, and that's the extent of it. Chair, Winnipeg Centre is the third-poorest riding in the country, and COVID-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness. Instead of bailing out its corporate buddies, when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets? the acting chair (mr. In addition to that, we have provided over $157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across Canada . How can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes? Will this government provide support, yes or no? hon. Chair, once again, we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses. In addition to that, we have moved additional dollars, in the amount of $157.5 million, to the most vulnerable, including the homeless population in Canada. rachael harder: As this pandemic began to spread, the government propagated China's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible. Chair, the member opposite's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting. I'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late December, and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting, the information changed. rachael harder: I'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading. Chair, since the very beginning, we have been advising Canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus. rachael harder: The minister also said that face masks weren't necessary, that they wouldn't help Canadians. Chair, as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus, as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence, we adapted to adjust our advice to Canadians. rachael harder: Why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the Canadian public misinformation? hon. rachael harder: Back in January when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of COVID-19, Conservatives asked the government if it would do the same. As the member opposite knows, we took strong measures at the border, as recommended by the international health regulations, and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time. rachael harder: I cannot agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is, in fact, incredibly wrong, which is why the government should simply apologize to the Canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep, that they didn't need to wear face masks, that we didn't need to close our borders, that human contact or contraction was impossible. Why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the Canadian public? Some hon. Chair, I maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward, that as new advice comes forward.... I'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously, now that she understands that they are misleading. Chair, I am so proud of Canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health. rachael harder: On February 3, Conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action. Unfortunately, Minister Hajdu scolded Conservative MPs, stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus. Chair, very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the Canadian community. We took strong action to assure those Canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in Canada. rachael harder: Would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the House somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is? hon. Tam was convening members of the Canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust Canadian response to an issue of potential concern. Chair, while the government has told the Canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about, that we didn't need to close the borders and that face masks weren't necessary, they were misleading the Canadian public. Now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth, spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online. Would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the Canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. Chair, I want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that Canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves. bruce stanton): I invite the honourable member for MganticL'rable to take the floor. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. One million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a CHSLD; it is a new fire station; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in Quebec. With $1million, the Liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. Does the Minister of Infrastructure agree with the bank's board, which is being so generous to its president with Canadians' money? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): Mr.Chair, I am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country. We are building by investing in renewable energy, green infrastructure and public transit, including in the member's riding. Chair, could the infrastructure minister explain to Canadians how it is better to give $1 million in bonuses to the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank than to invest in roads, schools, hospitals and long-term care homes? hon. Perhaps he isn't aware of our $33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the Government of Quebec to build infrastructure that's making a huge difference, including projects in the member's riding. On April3, the previous president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear. How much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the Canada Infrastructure Bank? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, the change of management at the Canada Infrastructure Bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank. We are working to build a modern, public infrastructure, to create jobs, and to make Canada more competitive internationally. What were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former CEO had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus, when few, if any, projects were financed by the bank? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the former CEO, Pierre Lavalle, for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution. luc berthold: Did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank? hon. catherine mckenna: As I have already said, the compensation range for the CEO is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. If the new president stays in the position for five years, he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $4million, in addition to his salary of $3million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money? hon. catherine mckenna: We have to build our country, create good short-term jobs, ensure that we have a cleaner future, invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges, public transportation the acting chair (mr. Chair, if the new CEO stays in office for five years, he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $4 million, in addition to his salary of $3 million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money, yes or no? hon. Chair, I'm very proud that we have Michael Sabia, who is now head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank as the board chair. We need to move forward in building infrastructure that's going to create jobs, including in the member's riding; that's going to help move us to a cleaner future; that's going to grow our economy and increase Canada's competitiveness. Chair, the COVID-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially. Christian Buhagiar of Supply Chain Canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency. Will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to COVID-19? the acting chair (mr. Chair, the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the Canada free trade agreement, focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers. Due to COVID-19, it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed. Chair, it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers, who have been meeting every week for more than two months, to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus. However, I agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade. Chair, while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic, two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection. Considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic, would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items? the acting chair (mr. I can assure you, as far as the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is concerned, that we are very open to that issue. Moreover, the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another. Does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, since we are discussing the food supply chain, let me remind you that we are committed to spending $50million, specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it, through the food bank network, to regions where the need is greatest. Chair, reports state that activists' rail blockades earlier this year cost the Canadian economy $275 million, and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down. The supply chain industry just caught up, and then the pandemic hit, creating new issues and backlogs. We are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country. Will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades? the acting chair (mr. Chair, I couldn't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country. Certain products are moving very well at the moment, including grain, potash and coal, but other goods haven't moved as quickly, because they have been affected by the pandemic. We are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible, whether it's by our railways, by trucks or by ships. Chair, at the standing committee for industry this week, David Montpetit of the Western Canadian Shippers' Coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months. This could backlog essential goods interprovincially, including food and medicine, if the capacity isn't there. With respect to trucking, we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country. Young and new farmers are struggling, as they don't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times. Price insurance is key, but the premiums are so expensive due to COVID that they can't participate. marie-claude bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair, we are encouraging the use of private programs, as well as the risk management programs. cathay wagantall: Has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure my colleague that I am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues. cathay wagantall: Is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, for insurance protection, our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk. cathay wagantall: Without price insurance, how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers. For example, we are providing $50million through the AgriRecovery program and $77.5million for food processors. cathay wagantall: On May 1, the Young Cattlemen's Council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day. We are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs, in addition to the risk management programs, of course. cathay wagantall: She didn't respond to the request of the Young Cattlemen's Council. The minister is telling farmers to access the BRM program, but just now I got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who's losing $250 to $300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis. The Farm Credit Canada lending capacity was increased by $5 billion, but only to service and manage loans of current customers. marie-claude bibeau: However, Mr.Chair, there is a whole range of programs for our producers, whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector, or the Canada emergency business account, the CEBA, the criteria of which have been broadened. This allows us to provide more loans, also with a forgivable portion of 25%, which could amount to $670million for the agricultural sector. cathay wagantall: What percentage of Canada's farmers are customers of Farm Credit Canada? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, Farm Credit Canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers. cathay wagantall: Of the 25% of farmers who use FCC and have applied, how many have received assistance? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I stand to be corrected but, according to the most recent information I have received, $4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began. cathay wagantall: Is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers aren't able to protect the value of their herds, which they cannot do, jeopardizing the future of the Canadian beef supply chain? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure you that I am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector. That is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones, especially in support of the meat industry. cathay wagantall: They made it clear that the BRM programs don't work and there's not funding in place to assist them. How many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this Liberal government? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Once again, Mr.Chair, we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect. The Minister of Employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities, similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on OAS and GIS. Could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made? When can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance? the acting chair (mr. Chair, we know that Canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by COVID in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have, or don't have, more specifically. We are three days away from National AccessAbility Week, the first week after we legislated it in the Accessible Canada Act. My office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program. How will the government ensure that the messaging for BCAP and similar programs is articulated properly? the acting chair (mr. Nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported. The lending program through BCAP is available through financial institutions; that's banks and credit unions across the country. Chair, members may not be aware, but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic, to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority. Can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation? the acting chair (mr. Thank you to my colleague for her important question, which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for Canadians, being mindful, of course, of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves, both personally and professionally. We know that, in particular, indigenous communities need that support, and particularly so in the context of the crisis. jody wilson-raybould: As current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes, something I would strongly support, can the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released? In asking this question, I certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic. There are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation. As we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report, we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited, plus. Despite the challenges of COVID-19, they have put in good initiatives, and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners. Wilson-Raybould, you're down to about the last 30 seconds, so please ask a short question. Does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers? I've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard. Chair, as I mentioned before, we're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment. However, the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time, and if they had to reimburse at this time, some of them could fail. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): Thank you very much, Mr. I want to begin by indicating that I'll be splitting my time with the member for SkeenaBulkley Valley. Across the country, a lot of Canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace, with the right procedures and the right equipment. For Canadians who are employed by them, that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they don't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities, and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they're not at work or because they will lose access to the CERB. I am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer hasn't done its due diligence, and are concerned about losing access to the CERB. Chair, we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we don't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work. We are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe, that they don't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts. Chair, I think the issue here is that Canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer, or an offer to come back to work, so that they wouldn't be on the CERB. Can Canadians be confident that they can stay on the CERB whether they go back to work or not, whether their employer makes them an offer or not? I think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it's a difficult time. When is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work? hon. Chair, we know that the provinces have their own workers' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms, but the point for us, here in government, is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe. Canadians depend on municipalities across Canada for vital services, especially during this pandemicservices like transit, drinking water, parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis. Local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help, yet mostly what we've heard are excuses. Does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time? hon. chrystia freeland: What we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times, and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy. We are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces, in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall. taylor bachrach: Through you to the minister, we've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way. We've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off, and it's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief. We are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in, and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning, particularly as we move into the restart. We're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces, as we are doing too. Are there emergency federal dollars on the table for Canada's cities, yes, or no? hon. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. At a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and Quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts, the Liberal Party, the government, is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it, not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters. At a time when the work in the House is even more essentialwe should be working even harder, just as we are asking the people to dothe government, with the complicity of the NDP, decides to suspend the work of the House. Can the government confirm to the House, and simultaneously to the NDP, that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do? It is not in its jurisdiction, so it is a measure that it cannot implement. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): Mr.Chair, in order to be part of any agreement, you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table. The Bloc Qubcois says it wants to make gains for Quebec, but in order to do that, it must be sitting at the table, not outside the room. It's like a hockey game; if you want to score goals, you have to be on the ice. The other day, I asked this question: how many of Guy Lafleur's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench? mrs. marilne gill: Let me shoot the puck back to the Leader of the Government in the House. But when you play a sport, when you are on a team, and when you are in Parliament, you still have to play by the rules. We have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the Bloc Qubcois. It was going very well, but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked. When you are not happy, you do not go off and sulk; you stay at the table and negotiate. When a player decides not to play by the rules, I do not let myself be taken in twice. I prefer to negotiate here, as we should be doing all the time in Parliament, not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word. I would just like the Leader of the Government in the House to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen. I could also ask him whether he found out from the Government of Quebec whether it agreed with the measure. What does she have against the fact that, from now on, people will be able to ask questions about anything, not just about COVID-19? What does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer? What is it that she does not like? the acting chair (mr. First, 37.5hours per week, as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees, is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us. pablo rodriguez: Mr.Chair, it all depends on government decisions, and clearly, we are having discussions with the provinces. However, I still do not understand what she has against having more time than I do to ask questions. bruce stanton): We will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Sweet, the member for Flamborough-Glanbrook, got up and was raising a number of issues about the Hong Kong protests, where 360 people have been arrested. The People's Republic of China, the regime in Beijing, and their rubber-stamp parliament, the National People's Congress, are circumventing Hong Kong legislation and the Hong Kong government in putting their own will upon the people of Hong Kong. Chair, I'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that Parliament can actually discuss this crisis, this human rights crisis, as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in Beijing. He may know, and for the benefit of other honourable members, that we're operating in this Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week. Of course, he'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared, so he might want to pursue that opportunity. Minister, I've been informed by some of my colleagues that CRA officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of Parliament to resolve CRA-related issues. Why on earth would CRA direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes? hon. You really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is, although I appreciate that. Also, on your website, it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to Canadians until June 5, and there is no further information about further live service. When will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need? the acting chair (mr. I've talked to my colleagues, and no chair, including the chair of the finance committee, has ever asked me to address a question through the chair. So with the greatest of respect, unless this is in fact Parliament, which I'm told it's not and the Parliament voted that it's not, we really should be able to address the witnesses directly, should we not? the acting chair (mr. This really is a question around the way in which this special committee on COVID-19 has been structured. We're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the House in an order that was passed and adopted on Tuesday of this week, so we're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way, and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon. So I ask you to abide by the rules of the committee, and we'll pursue that. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic COVID-19 period. I must tell you that CRA call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly. marty morantz: Some of my colleagues have spoken to the CRA about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations, citing COVID-19 as a reason. Has the CRA removed these boxes at all locations? Given this, will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free, since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations? hon. At the CRA, we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do. marty morantz: On the subject of paper returns, there have been numerous reportsin fact I asked you on May 10 for a written response at the government operations committee, OGGO, which I have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns. When will Canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I can confirm that the Canada Revenue Agency continues to process paper returns. Because of COVID-19, we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees. The minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head. How many successful prosecutions have there been in Canada for the illegal use of tax havens? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, as we have said, one of our government's priorities was to invest almost $1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion. bruce stanton): That concludes the 13thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Speaker Rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting, which will be next Monday, we'll be watching more carefully the time for members' statements. We ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute, as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey? kirsty williams am: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair—I hope you'll be pleased to hear this—that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been? kirsty williams am: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage—and we always encourage—local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived? kirsty williams am: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors' reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. steve davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process—it gives it greater push and support around it. kirsty williams am: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. And because of the word 'toolkit'—the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist, 'Just do this and check list'. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that 'toolkit' gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. lynne neagle am: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Siân Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Siân. suzy davies am: Yes, the resource, thank you—about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like? kirsty williams am: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. suzy davies am: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all. steve davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince—and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them—that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box, 'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability—sometimes, the practitioners are like, 'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.' And I think that's been a part of the constant—not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do. lynne neagle am: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets? kirsty williams am: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that—you know—is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines—you know, 'We did this and it's resulted in that'—given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say, 'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that? kirsty williams am: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. So, our school improvement service—it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. huw irranca-davies am: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying 'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'? kirsty williams am: So, that system has evolved over time. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like 'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments—the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that—. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system—'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.' But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough—there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right? kirsty williams am: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right—absolutely right. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. huw irranca-davies am: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools? kirsty williams am: That's it—you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities' and school improvement services' knowledge about their schools. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve—more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school—and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government—as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school—requiring special measures or urgent improvement—and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment, 'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying—Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying, 'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?' It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it—that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually—I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. Steve, I don't know— steve davies: I think your important point is about, 'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?' And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness—not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again? kirsty williams am: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early—not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big, 'We must do something' and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense? lynne neagle am: I've got a couple of supplementaries on—. Sorry? kirsty williams am: Does that make sense? lynne neagle am: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Siân. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering—. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category—. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are— suzy davies am: That they don't know how to do this. kirsty williams am: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve—because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say, 'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.' And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities. sian gwenllian am: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward? kirsty williams am: I think, Siân, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around 'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?' You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority—those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account—have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools—11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales? kirsty williams am: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right—we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result—hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. steve davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups—they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues—leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12, 18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely—. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia—three words in it. Why haven't you done it? kirsty williams am: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that— hefin david am: It was only three words. kirsty williams am: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services—scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities. kirsty williams am: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective? kirsty williams am: The school improvement services? hefin david am: The four consortia. kirsty williams am: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly—and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that—and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate? kirsty williams am: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery. hefin david am: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do? kirsty williams am: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised. hefin david am: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working? kirsty williams am: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand—not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision. hefin david am: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances— hefin david am: What does that mean, though, 'seeking assurances'? kirsty williams am: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also. hefin david am: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then. kirsty williams am: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. hefin david am: Steve, did you want to say something? steve davies: Obviously—[Inaudible.]—that point. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand? kirsty williams am: So, that is the current model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way. hefin david am: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document— 'The implementation of this model will change over time'— is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view? steve davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. hefin david am: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier. hefin david am: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be? kirsty williams am: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. hefin david am: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about? steve davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago—just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum—that's a key part of it. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service—is it heading in that direction? kirsty williams am: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. sian gwenllian am: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense? kirsty williams am: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. sian gwenllian am: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends? kirsty williams am: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures—you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add. steve davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at—things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs—for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level—we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools. kirsty williams am: So, if we look at—level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children— sian gwenllian am: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures—I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge—whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children—and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals—were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison. sian gwenllian am: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis? kirsty williams am: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says, 'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.' That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think, 'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else? kirsty williams am: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data—I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. steve davies: Can I, very briefly—? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers. [Laughter.] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children—where they really are within that system. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children. suzy davies am: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research—I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation? kirsty williams am: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years. suzy davies am: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this £100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated? steve davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year. steve davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report—because it is an extensive report—to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into. kirsty williams am: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because—. Exams are important—of course they are, qualifications are important—but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important. lynne neagle am: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then? suzy davies am: In a whole-school approach. kirsty williams am: I absolutely—and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me. suzy davies am: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it? kirsty williams am: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing. suzy davies am: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time? kirsty williams am: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of 'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes? kirsty williams am: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says, 'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to—.' We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA. sian gwenllian am: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be. sian gwenllian am: But, this is despite the fact that there is £475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. kirsty williams am: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9.4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. sian gwenllian am: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon? kirsty williams am: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some £10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children—not FSM children; the national average for all children. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. lynne neagle am: Siân, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid. sian gwenllian am: Sorry? lynne neagle am: This is going to have to be the last question. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019? kirsty williams am: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 12th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Members who have already participated in a virtual meeting of the special committee may actually not notice any change, except for the fact that some members are also participating from the floor of the House. An additional rubric, that of statements by members, was also added to the proceedings of the committee. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up in the chamber on either side of the Speakers chair. Sound amplification for virtual interventions will be available, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor sound or interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. For those of you joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by videoconference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their microphone and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificates off at the table once the petitions are presented. Chair, what an honour to be the first voice coming to you from the screens on either side of the Speaker of the House. I speak to you from SaanichGulf Islands on the traditional territory of the WSNEC people. I'm presenting a petition, number 431-00215, and it has been certified. The petitioners call on this House to take note of the fact that Canada is the only country with a universal health care system that does not include the provision of necessary prescription medications. They note that the system across Canada is a patchwork that leaves three million Canadians unprepared and uninsured to be able to purchase necessary medications. They call on the House assembled to put in place a system of universal national pharmacare, bringing down the cost of drugs through bulk purchasing. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr. This Senate public bill, been put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan in the Senate, would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad to receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It also has a mechanism by which somebody could be deemed inadmissible to Canada for being involved in the horrible practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill has been before various Parliaments for over 10 years, and petitioners are hopeful that this Parliament will be the one that finally takes action to address forced organ harvesting and trafficking. The second petition is put forward by folks who are concerned about Bill C-7, particularly the efforts by the government through Bill C-7 to remove vital safeguards that are currently associated with Canada's euthanasia regime. Petitioners are not happy about the fact that the government is trying to eliminate the 10-day reflection period and remove other safeguards that only four short years ago the government thought were essential for the euthanasia and assisted suicide system that they were putting in place. The petitioners call on the government to address that, and they are not supportive of these particular efforts to remove vital safeguards from that regime. the chair: Is anyone else presenting petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to statements by members. darrell samson (sackvilleprestonchezzetcook, lib.): Good afternoon, everyone. This spring has been a difficult one for Nova Scotia and the communities of SackvillePrestonChezzetcook. While residents have banded together to tackle the challenges presented by COVID-19, we have also had to mourn the passing of three remarkable local women: RCMP Constable Heidi Stevenson, well known by many in Cole Harbour and the surrounding areas; our own Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, who was based out of 12 Wing Shearwater; and Captain Jenn Casey of the Canadian Forces Snowbirds. These three brave women, who served with honour on land, at sea and in the air, represent the absolute best of us. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Canada needs a prime minister who will create jobs and opportunity, but instead we have a prime minister who is piling up crippling national debt. After five years with this debt, Prime Minister, Canada's national debt is set to hit $1 trillion, with almost nothing to show for it. Canadian workers need and deserve a prime minister who supports our energy sector and gets our natural resources and agriculture products to market, who supports small business and will make our tax system encourage job creation and growth, and who will bring advanced manufacturing jobs to Canada and keep the automotive industry growing. Most importantly, we need a Conservative prime minister who will get the government finances under control after the massive debt left by this prime minister. Since the COVID-19 outbreak, we've seen a disproportionate number of deaths in long-term care homes. I'm thankful for the Canadian Armed Forces who were deployed to the Altamont care home in my riding and four other facilities across the GTA. They include residents being given expired or improper doses of medication; not being cleaned or changed for a prolonged period of time; being forcibly fed, causing choking; being bed-bound for weeks; receiving inadequate nutrition, and much more. Chair, I call upon Premier Ford to place these five homes under a mandatory management order and to appoint a third party manager to address and rectify these violations. I also call upon the Premier to undertake an independent public inquiry into the tragedy we face in long-term care facilities across Ontario. Chair, we need to work with the provinces and territories to set national standards of care for the most vulnerable in our society. I hesitate to interrupt colleagues, but I'm concerned about the petition practice, which, as I understand it, is to summarize a petition but not make a speech. the chair: I will remind honourable members that when a petition is presented, we're expected to give a prcis and make it as concise as possible. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I would like to recognize the resilience of Quebeckers concerned for their jobs or their businesses during the COVID-19 crisis. That is why the Bloc Qubcois is demanding that the government present an economic update, and that it do so before June17. In closing, I would like to remind the government that one group is not really contributing to the public purse at the moment. I am talking about the tech giants, the GAFAM group, that have never before been used to the extent that they are now, and that are still not paying a cent in tax in Canada. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Peel region police, paramedic and firefighting services for keeping Bramptonians safe. Organizations such as the Khalsa Aid Society, the Interfaith Council of Peel, the Brampton YMCA, the Prayer Stone Peoples Church, Unity in the Community, Ste. Louise Outreach Centre, Knights Table, the Yogi Divine Society, Vraj Community Service, Regeneration Brampton and many more have made our community stronger during this difficult time. Like many Canadians, I was shocked by this report from the long-term care centres, including one in my riding. Chair, Canada's oil and gas sector is in crisis, made worse by five years of bad policies, red tape and barriers to pipelines. Active rigs dropped by 92% and tens of thousands of oil and gas workers lost their jobs, adding to the 200,000 since 2015. Energy is Canada's biggest investor, and exporting could lead the recovery if there are actions, not just words. On March 25, the finance minister promised help in hours or days, not weeks, but he's letting Canadians down. Sixty-three days later, small oil and gas companies still can't apply for BDC loans, and last week's large employer loan terms are predatory, with interest rates escalating to 14% by year five. The Liberals' death-by-delay tactics are doing exactly what foreign activists in other countries want: to shut down Canada's oil. lyne bessette (bromemissisquoi, lib.): Mr.Chair, in times of crisis, we stick together. In the last weeks, I have been calling volunteer action centres in my constituency so that they can tell me their news. I would like to take the time that I have to highlight the work that community organizations are doing tirelessly in my constituency. The crisis has made us realize the extent to which food banks and meals-on-wheels can not only relieve hunger, but also relieve thousands of shut-in seniors of their loneliness. Let me also highlight the devotion of the volunteers giving generously of their time, particularly the initiative of Mabel Hastings in the volunteer aid centre in Mansonville. Like me, she sends out a daily newsletter to keep the public informed about the many resources available for their support. COVID-19 is bringing out the best in our community and I am certain that, together, we will get through it. Chair, during the COVID-19 pandemic I have been inspired by the courageous work of so many essential workers. I want to thank everyone on the front lines for keeping us safe, keeping us fed and keeping our communities functioning. I want to make special note of one particular essential health care worker, a woman who is a quarantine manager with the Public Health Agency of Canada. Suchi, I love you, I am very proud of you and I thank you for all of the sacrifices you are making. I want to highlight another woman from my riding of ParkdaleHigh Park, Rachelle LeBlanc. When the pandemic broke, she saw the need for protective barriers for small shops in Parkdale, so she set about collecting donations. Rachelle's team has now delivered 25 free COVID protective shields to small shopkeepers in Parkdale, and the team is on track to building 100 more. It's the compassion of Canadians like Rachelle that gives meaning to the phrase we are all in this together. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): Mr.Chair, the school year has been shattered and our graduating classes must be proud of what they have achieved amid the COVID-19 pandemic. The current government has the obligation to promote the values that will lead you to become involved in your communities. I implore this government, which is unaware of the damage it is causing, to immediately announce all the positions that have already been approved under the Canada summer jobs program. Let us have confidence in our organizations, our companies, and let us support our youth, a rich resource that we must equip and motivate. I congratulate all the young graduates in the beautiful constituency of PortneufJacques-Cartier. greg fergus (hullaylmer, lib.): Mr.Chair, this pandemic lets us see what Canadians are made of. This coming Saturday, May30, more than 2,000Christians of all denominations are coming together virtually for prayer and for action. This Saturday, in more than 2,000 churches and homes, thousands of faith-filled Canadians are gathering to pray and act on those prayers as part of Stand United Canada. Then they are going to deliver much-needed support to at-risk Canadians who live in disadvantaged areas. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): The best way to safeguard the truth is to allow people to speak freely, but from the very beginning of this pandemic, the Liberals have silenced dissent. Early on, they propagated the notion that human-to-human transmission wasn't possible. It is undeniable that the Liberal government has put Canadians in danger by silencing alternative points of view and has spread misinformation. They are determining what is true and what is not, what is right and what is wrong, what is in and what is out. I call upon the government to restore the personal liberties that are granted under our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They provide employment and economic stability and are always the first to support community functions and activities, but small businesses have been particularly hard hit due to COVID-19. They have shut their doors temporarily, and now many worry they'll never be able to open their doors again. With the season cancellations at the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music, businesses in the tourism, hospitality, accommodation and retail sectors in PerthWellington are struggling. Every day, I talk to small business owners who can't access the Canada emergency business account, and others who find the convoluted commercial rent assistance program to be out of reach. Chair, the government needs to go back, fix these programs and ensure that support goes to the small businesses that need it. We can go backwards to so-called business as usual, with horrific conditions in long-term care homes, widespread inequality and no real action on climate change, or we can build for better. In Victoria, people in the community, organizations and municipal leaders have been calling for a new way forward. Organizations like Greater Victoria Acting Together; Common Vision, Common Action; and Kairos Victoria are exploring ideas for a sustainable and just recovery. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, in this time of pandemic, it is with heartfelt emotion that I want to highlight the excellent work of all the guardian angels at the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest. From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the entire staff, as well as the retirees who have come back to provide their assistance. I admire the managers, at all levels and in all services, working tirelessly so that their teams can answer the call in this difficult situation. My fellow managers and the management teams of the Support Program for the Autonomy of Seniors, both in home support and in residential care, you have my heartfelt congratulations for the herculean work you have done. My thoughts go particularly to Lyne Ricard and Vronique Proulx, managers working diligently with their teams of professionals to support the seniors living in intermediate resources, as we call them. I also warmly recognize the director of nursing services, Chantal Careau, who is facing the current challenge with passion and humanity. Once again, my congratulations go to the entire organization of the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest for their remarkable work in this difficult and very demanding time. john barlow (foothills, cpc): During the worst of times, we see the best in people. I cannot say enough about my constituents in Foothillsfront-line health care workers, grocery store clerks, restaurateurs, farmersfor all they are doing to keep our community safe and healthy. I want to shine a light on some of our hidden heroes, such as Owen Plumb, a grade 9 student in Okotoks who is using his 3D printer to build PPE for front-line health care workers. He partnered with the Rotary Club and Evergreen Solutions in Okotoks to help with the manufacturing and assembly. There is also Sam Schofield, the volunteer president of the Pincher Creek Chamber of Commerce, overnight built a resiliency website for COVID-19 by building training tools for businesses throughout his area. He also helped develop the Foothills Business Recovery Taskforce, which is a resource for businesses throughout southern Alberta in my riding. Finally, to the employees of Cargill Foods in High River, I know this has been a very difficult time and that many of you have lost loved ones. I want to say thank you for tirelessly doing all you can to protect our food supply and keep food on our table. scott simms (coast of bayscentralnotre dame, lib.): Thank you, Chair. I would like to take this time to salute those who go above and beyond the call of duty to provide care and comfort to others. In my 16 years in the House of Commons I have never experienced anything like this, when we find our lives are at a standstill and there is so much sorrow felt by families who suffer from the effects of COVID-19. Shanna and Fred Patey of Bishop's Falls, along with a few of their friends, spend hours next to the Trans-Canada Highway with just a barbeque and a cooler. There is also Mitch Strickland of Grand Falls-Windsor, who owns Appy's Diner. To all our front-line workers in grocery stores and delivery trucks, and to doctors, nurses, LPNs, paramedics, first responders and, of course, our brave women and men in the military, we will be forever grateful and blessed because of you. members: Hear, hear! the chair: That's all the time we have today for Statements by Members. Before going on, I just want to remind all the members that it is a one-minute statement, so if you don't mind, please time it before coming in because we do have limited time. I'm not here to judge anybody's way of speaking, but try to consider the translators and interpreters to make sure that everyone understands what is said, because they are working diligently to try to get both languages out. In sum, there are two things: please slow down and please make sure the statement is confined to one minute. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow the employees who are providing support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. In the early days of the pandemic and the lockdown that followed, Canadians were told by this government that programs would be rolled out very quickly and that gaps and shortcomings would be changed as time went on. While many Canadians are being let down by this government's response and its unnecessarily rigid programs, Conservatives identified solutions weeks ago, yet here we are, two and a half months later, and many of these programs still have not been improved. On April 26 the Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account could qualify for those types of programs. Chair, we knew from the beginning of this pandemic that we did need to move extremely quickly, and that's what we did. Eight million Canadians have had that as a replacement for paycheques lost because of COVID-19. We also moved forward on the wage subsidy and a range of other programs to support workers and small businesses. What we've done in terms of helping small businesses with the Canada emergency business account has had a massive impact on small businesses across the country, but we understand that certain companies and businesses have particularities that mean it's a little more difficult for them to qualify. We are working with them through their regional development agencies, and we encourage them to approach their local RDAs, which will be able to help them get the money they deserve. They're trying to get patted on the back for actions they took back in March, and yet they are letting so many Canadians down by not making these very simple changes. Will companies that have acquired another company still be allowed to use the wage subsidy to keep workers on the job, yes or no? right hon. We have moved forward on supporting as many of them as we possibly can, and we continue to work on filling gaps. I know the member opposite has talked to me a number of times about a tractor company in his riding. I can assure you that finance officials are engaged with that company to see if there's a way to make sure we're getting them the support they need. He can make this very clear, and save a lot of work, just by including the word acquisition. They're continuing to work with a range of businesses across the country that, for various reasons, are not able to apply for the help we have now. The government has set the parameters to qualify for the rent relief program for companies that have experienced a 70% revenue loss. There are untold thousands of businesses that have experienced a 50%, 55%, 60% or 65% loss that are ineligible but have no capacity to pay the rent. We called on the government weeks ago to have a more flexible sliding scale to allow more companies to access this program to keep more people on the job and more businesses open. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, our public servants and policy-makers have been moving creatively and quickly to try to get help to as many people as we possibly can, with our focus being on the people who need it the most. Obviously, this pandemic is affecting everyone and every business across the country in different ways, but our focus has been on ensuring that those who most need it are getting the help they can. We will, of course, continue to work with the parties opposite and all Canadians to ensure that we're getting help to everyone who needs it, but our focus has always been on the most vulnerable, first and foremost. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. If the Liberal Party of Canada had not taken advantage of the emergency programs, would it have laid off all its staff? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we recognized that a number of organizations and companies were facing difficulties because of COVID-19. People work for those organizations, as accountants, receptionists, assistants or labourers, and those people need to be supported. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party one of those organizations in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Any company or organization that can demonstrate a significant drop in its income, whether that be in donations, receipts, profits the chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blanchet. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: In the Magdalen Islands, fishing companies in difficulty and in need of assistance will not have the money that the Liberals are going to take. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have invested in assistance for fishers all across the country. Compared to that company, is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: If the program criteria establish that the Liberal Party is an organization in difficulty, does that mean that the criteria to determine whether an organization is in difficulty are poorly designed? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, all through this pandemic, our priority has been to be here for workers in difficulty so that they do not lose their jobs. yves-franois blanchet: Given the answers from the Prime Minister, let me ask this question: is the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: Restaurant owners on rue Ontario in Montreal feel that they will not make it through the crisis and that they will never open their doors again. By comparison, is the Liberal Party of Canada an organization in difficulty that will not open its doors again after the crisis? We can but hope. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established criteria for that program in order to help those working for various organizations. yves-franois blanchet: Is there a consensus in the Liberal Party caucus that the Liberal Party is in difficulty as an organization? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we are working every day to help Canadians and workers in difficulty. yves-franois blanchet: Does answering a question put the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, it is a pleasure to be here in the House and to answer questions from Canadians and from members of the opposition. yves-franois blanchet: You are going to answer a question from a Quebecker, I hope. Would those companies not deserve to be saved by the money that the supposedly struggling Liberal Party has taken? right hon. justin trudeau: I am always very happy to answer questions from all Canadians currently sitting in the House. yves-franois blanchet: If the Prime Minister is so happy to answer questions, I hope he will be delirious with joy to answer this one. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established a program to help those working in organizations and who could lose their jobs because of COVID-19. The conditions of seniors as outlined by the military were appalling, but seniors need more than just compassionate words. Will the Prime Minister stop hiding behind excuses and actually show leadership to fix long-term care? right hon. It lays out the divisions of powers and responsibilities, and we respect the provinces' jurisdiction over long-term care facilities. However, from the very beginning, we have indicated our willingness to support the provinces on this very important issue. We need to make sure our seniors right across the country are properly cared for, which is why we sent in the military and why we are there to help the provinces. Philpott, said, We need to stop using jurisdiction as an excuse to not have federal leadership. Now, we know from the military report that staff were afraid to use vital equipment because of the cost. Chair, over the past couple of days I've had very good conversations with the premiers of both Quebec and Ontario on this important issue. I look forward to discussing issues around long-term care with all the premiers of the provinces and territories tomorrow evening as well. Ontarians and indeed people right across the country are deeply preoccupied by what they've seen going on. jagmeet singh: The military report found that cockroaches and flies were present and that food was rotten. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards so that long-term care is governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. Chair, our priority right now is ensuring that we are supporting the provinces in their need to make sure that all seniors are protected right across the country in all those institutions. Going forward, we absolutely will need to have more conversations about how we can ensure that every senior across the country is properly supported. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards and for long-term care to be governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. This is something we all take very seriously, and all orders of government will work together to make sure that right now, and going forward, we improve our systems. We need a commitment at the federal level that the Prime Minister will push for things that people need, which is to remove profit from long-term care and to establish national standards. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, I will always be here to stand up for Canadians in all different situations. We are going to work with the provinces, fully respecting jurisdictions, to make sure that, all across the country, Canadians in long-term care are supported as required and receive the services and the care they deserve. The COVID-19 crisis should not be used as an excuse to avoid presenting solutions to the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls committee, in particular by delaying action on the calls for justice. This is the same government that would not recognize it as a genocide, the same government that delayed the United Nations declaration legislation and the same government that is still taking indigenous kids to court. Will this government commit to core funding for indigenous services to help women and girls and ensure that the calls for justice are implemented without delay? right hon. Chair, we continue to work very closely with partners on the calls for justice even as we act in many areas, including better funding for shelters and for victims of domestic violence. We will continue to work with those partners, but people will understand that many of those partners are very focused right now on helping front-line workers, not on establishing the report. We will continue to work with them on the report, but the COVID-19 situation has made that more difficult. the chair: I want to thank the honourable members who are shouting time, but I do have a timer here, and I am taking care of it. He was just talking about the tragic conditions in long-term care facilities in Ontario, and there was a report out from Quebec today. I want to commend the Canadian Armed Forces for witnessing these appalling conditions, putting it in the context of a report, and providing care to our loved ones in these long-term care facilities. The government is saying they didn't receive the report from the department until May 22, but this report came out on May 14. I then forwarded it to the Minister of Public Safety on the 22nd, and that report was then given to the provincial authorities very quickly afterwards. james bezan: I trust that you got the report on the 21st, but the report was written on the 14th, so what happened with that report for seven days? Why wasn't it acted upon? Could you just explain that? Our loved ones were at risk during that entire time. Chair, as we stated, this report was done and given up through the chain of command, and the appropriate leadership did their due diligence. Again, I want to commend our Canadian Armed Forces members for not only the tremendous work they are doing but also for doing their duty. james bezan: That report from Ontario documented appalling conditions, horrific care that was being given to the clients, and also the way that the staff conducted themselves. Minister, do you believe that the infection could have been transmitted from staff to our soldiers serving in long-term care facilities because proper protocols were not being followed? hon. Chair, when it comes to any type of activities that we send our Canadian Armed Forces on, we do our due diligence to make sure that we have the right protocols in place and the appropriate training. This is why we have taken the time to make sure our folks not only did the appropriate training but had the appropriate equipment. We have the right protocols in place, and we will make sure that our members who are infected by COVID will get the appropriate treatment as well. james bezan: Does the Minister of National Defence believe that our soldiers serving in Operation Laser, who have put themselves in harm's way in battling the COVID virus as a war, deserve to have hazard pay benefits? hon. Chair, when it comes to looking after Canadian Armed Forces personnel, yes, we are actually in the process as we speak of making sure that our members have the appropriate hazard pay. I would finally like to come back to the issue of the timeline from May 14 to May 21, when that report was in the department for one week. Will the minister take responsibility for that report sitting on someone's desk for seven days and not being turned over to the proper authorities? hon. Chair, I want to make it very clear: When it comes to the observations that were made, those were immediately reported to the appropriate management of the care facilities and to the appropriate links within the province. At the same time, this report was being compiled and pushed up to the chain of command, and they did their due diligence. As I stated, it was given to us, and on the same day it was forwarded to the Minister of Public Safety, who immediately then sent it to the provincial authorities. Chair, as stated, this will not only be given to the proper authorities but the appropriate steps will be taken now. rosemarie falk (battlefordslloydminster, cpc): Thank you, Chair. Yesterday it was revealed that the Minister of Digital Government has been promoting a fundraising campaign to sue Global News for their story criticizing the Chinese Communist Party. Why is the minister using her authority to support the Communist Party of China and threatening our media and freedom of expression? hon. WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chair: Now we'll go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister aware of the efforts that the United Front carries out on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party to influence how Canadians view the People's Republic of China? hon. The participation in the WeChat group, much like Facebook, is guided by posted the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister an active participant in the efforts by the Communists to muzzle a Canadian journalist and deprive Canadians of the facts about China? hon. I will say that the individual in question posted something outside of the guidelines of my WeChat group and is no longer the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Falk, I just want to point out that we do have interpreters listening and trying to interpret. joyce murray: I think the member knows very well that the people who post on WeChat are free to post what they choose within certain guidelines. rosemarie falk: Chair, Sam Cooper is an investigative Canadian journalist who has uncovered many different criminal rackets that can be linked back to Beijing. joyce murray: As we all know, community outreach is a very important part of the work of a member of Parliament. WeChat is one of many social media sites regularly used by members the chair: We go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Chair, when will the minister apologize to Sam Cooper and Global News? hon. Chair, I have been very clear that I do not share the views of the person who posted on my WeChat site, who operated outside of my the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Chair, I want to assure the member that we are always vigilant in any foreign interference in our national security or issues of political interference in our society. It's monitored carefully by the national security establishment, according to the law as it exists in this country, and we will remain vigilant. Will the Liberals hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated this part of the charter? hon. I think, as the minister has made very clear, she was not involved in this process and has no control over the individual who posted that matter. Will the government hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated their part of the charter? hon. Chair, I want to assure the member that our government remains committed to the rule of law and we will always work tirelessly to uphold the laws of this country. rosemarie falk: Still, was that a yes or a no? I'm not hearing a yes or a no. Chair, to answer the question for the House and to assure the member opposite that our government will always remain committed to the rule of law. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. bill morneau (minister of finance): Mr.Chair, we continue to be transparent with our measures. Of course, we want to make sure that our investments, our economy the chair: The floor is yours, Mr.Deltell. grard deltell: Let me ask my question to the honourable Minister of Finance once more, since he is talking about transparency. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, the Minister of Finance may not know what the deficit is, but one great Canadian does know. Could the Minister of Finance be very clear, very fluid and, above all, very transparent with Canadians? What is Canada's deficit? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I want to be very clear with Canadians: our economic situation is very difficult. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, with all due respect to the Minister of Finance, let me point out that, though he is not very clear, Canada's Parliamentary Budget Officer was clear yesterday. Why does the government not have the courage to state it clearly, as the Parliamentary Budget Officer did yesterday? hon. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, I know that the Minister of Finance is very good with figures. Perhaps he could comment on the statement that the Parliamentary Budget Officer made yesterday, that the emergency assistance must have an end date, and if it does not, we are heading to levels of taxation that have not been seen in this country for generations. What is the government going to do to make sure that Canadians will not be overtaxed after this crisis? hon. When we have more information, we will the chair: Mr.Deltell, you have the floor. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, will the minister commit not to raise taxes after the crisis? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I have said several times that we do not have a plan to raise taxes. grard deltell: Finally a clear answer! However, I'm not convinced that he will apply it. In fact, the Parliamentary Budget Officer himself has said that there isn't much ammunition left without shifting into a large structural deficit, which can lead directly to tax increases. If the Minister of Finance can't even say today what the deficit is today, how can he be credible when he says that he won't raise taxes? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I think what's most important is that during this pandemic, Canadians and companies across the country need the Government of Canada's help. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, all observers are expecting an economic update to know where we're going. Chair, the United States, Australia, India, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and Vietnam have created an economic prosperity group to diversify some of their key supply chains away from China. Indeed, we have been working diligently with all of these countries to make sure that we are keeping global supply chains open during this critical time. I think everyone agrees that keeping supply chains open for medical goods, critical agriculture and essential goods is absolutely essential and the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, this government is refusing to come to terms with what COVID-19 will mean for the future of international trade. Why is Canada not at the table with our largest trading partner protecting the viability of our international supply chains and capitalizing on the opportunities of others doing the same? the chair: Before we go to the minister, one of the members has his mike still on, and I would ask that he turn it off. Chair, Canada has unprecedented access to a number of markets around the world because of the extraordinary agreements that we have made to provide access to customers in those international markets. I have had two meetings with G20 trade ministers on the importance of keeping supply chains the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, is this payback for the Prime Minister snubbing these countries at the original TPP signing? hon. Chair, we have a CPTPP arrangement with these countries, and we are looking forward to making sure that we get Canadian businesses growing into those markets. will begin applying tariffs at the beginning of next year on Canadian exports such as seafood, beef and cars. I want to assure Canadian businesses that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the U.K. Chair, after CUSMA, this government guaranteed to the trade committee that they would publish the objectives of any new trade agreement. Chair, we look forward to working to ensure that those objectives are published as we get into future trade discussions. Chair, the resignation of the WTO director-general at this unprecedented time is concerning for the international trade community. Is the government committed to supporting a DG candidate who is dedicated to the massive reforms needed to get the WTO functioning again? hon. The Ottawa group, led by Canada, is working with like-minded countries on the reform of the WTO. I look forward to making sure that we are leading the way on those discussions with like-minded the chair: Mr. Has the government sought out and received assurances from the United States that no such action will apply to Canadian cattle? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. Chair, we have an excellent assurance of our trade with the United States, which is our new NAFTA trade agreement that we have negotiated, thanks to the unprecedented co-operation across this country. Chair, going forward post-COVID, there are a lot things that will be changing in supply chains. What is this government doing proactively to look at opportunities in these supply chains that Canadian businesses can take advantage of? hon. Chair, we continue to work with countries around the globe to ensure that Canada's supply chains and those global supply chains, particularly for essential goods, for agricultural products, for medical supplies, continue to remain open. Chair, on the agriculture side, canola farmers would like to know the status of canola going into China. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, I want to assure my colleague that we are continuing to work with our industry representatives, our allies and our trading partners in China. cathy mcleod (kamloopsthompsoncariboo, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Senior Canadian bureaucrats received very credible reports in early January that China was procuring and hoarding PPE. Chair, from the very beginning of the outbreak in early January we were aware of the challenges our health sector would face, and we immediately began to work with the provinces and territories to understand what the need would be and how we could best prepare. cathy mcleod: In April, the minister stated there were not enough supplies in the national emergency stockpile. Can she explain why she approved a donation of 16 tonnes of PPE for China on January 31, claiming it would not compromise our supply? She can't have it both ways. Chair, we are operating in a highly competitive global environment, and the reality is that we need to make sure we have multiple complementary supply chains operating at the same time, which we have been doing in the past weeks and months, to ensure our front-line health care workers have the supplies they need to keep Canadians safe. cathy mcleod: Unfortunately, this question was directed to the health minister, referencing things she actually stated in terms of the availability of our supplies. Before the she signed off on the donationand it was the health minister who signed off on the donationdid she consult with the health ministers in the provinces and territories? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, provinces and territories have their own stockpiles, which of course they use to prepare for incidences of outbreak and other illnesses across their jurisdictions. We've worked very closely with the provinces and territories since the beginning of the outbreak to make sure we can provide any particular additional support. cathy mcleod: Health care workers are now having to look at modified full-face snorkels as an alternative to N95 masks. Did it not occur to the minister that our hospitals and care homes could have used that PPE she shipped out, providing a longer opportunity for them to also get procurement done? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, the equipment that was donated when China was in its outbreak was an important donation of nearly expired or expired goods that it was in desperate need of in its effort to try to contain the virus. As the member opposite knows, we've been able to work successfully with provinces and territories to ensure they have what they need. Chair, I would suggest that during February and March our hospitals would have consumed that almost-expired product very efficiently, but I want to move on to another topic. When defending the sale of 22 seniors' homes to the Chinese government, the Prime Minister stated that we have a strong regulatory regime that imposes rigorous standards. Was the Prime Minister completely oblivious to the risks, or was he just too anxious to please the Chinese government when he sold those 22 homes? hon. Chair, the homes the member opposite is referring to are in the province of B.C., and I have to commend the province for the early work it did to protect seniors in those long-term care homes. As she knows, the review we did was entirely separate from the standards to which the province holds the care homes. cathy mcleod: The Prime Minister does not have authority over seniors' homes, which he has clearly stated, but he does have authority over the act in which he approved the sale. Chair, the long-term care homes in each province fall within the jurisdiction of their own particular act, and those provinces and territories are responsible for fulfilling the inspections required under that act. cathy mcleod: Under the Investment Canada Act, the government is obligated to review the sale for compliance. Since the government approved the sale, it is complicit in the care of our seniors in this country hon. That is why we follow the appropriate steps, outlined under the Investment Canada Act, to make sure that any measures we take keep seniors and their well-being first and foremost. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): Mr.Chair, during the pandemic, the government has given money to companies that don't pay a cent in tax because they use tax havens. During the pandemic, the government gave money to Air Canada, but Air Canada never reimbursed customers who did not get the services they paid for. Is the moral of the story that the government thinks that dipping into the pockets of taxpayers to spend money carelessly is no big deal? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, the fight against tax evasion is a priority for our government. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, when I see that it's the Minister of National Revenue answering me, I don't feel like buying a lottery ticket. The Liberal Party used two airplanes in its last election campaign, which seems to indicate that it isn't short of money. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we think it's very important to protect employees across the country and in every economic sector that's experiencing a significant drop in income. That's the approach we've taken to protect people and to ensure that there will be jobs in the future. alain therrien: It's especially important to protect the employees who work for the Liberals to ensure their re-election, yet the Liberal Party has raised more than $7million since the last election. We think that this principle is very important and that this approach must be maintained in order to have a better job market in the future. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, we still don't know exactly how much money the Liberals took from the cookie jar. How many SMEs could have been saved with the $1million that the Liberals took out of the jar and took away from SMEs? hon. We are protecting hundreds of thousands of SMEs through the emergency wage subsidy, the Canada emergency response benefit and all our programs. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, I will propose a choice of answers, or I won't get any. The first possible answer is that when the Liberals brought in the emergency wage subsidy, they set parameters allowing them to use it. The second is that when the Liberals saw the Conservative Partywhich is as rich as they are, but also sanctimonious and self-righteoustake advantage of the subsidy, they thought they could do it too. The third possible answer is that the Liberals hadn't planned to use the subsidy, but they pounced on the cookie jar when they saw it, because that's what they do. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we continue to think it is very important to protect employees in every sector of the economy and across Canada. That's our approach, and I believe it's the right one to protect and preserve jobs across the country during a pandemic. the chair: We are now going to suspend the proceedings for a few seconds to allow the employees who provide support for the meeting to replace each other safely. Chair, when the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces stepped in to provide support to five long-term care homes in Ontario at the request of the premier, they released a report that outlined their findings in detail. Almost 1,000 seniors so far have lost their lives in long-term care homes in Ontario alone, over 25 of them in my riding of MississaugaErin Mills. Can the Minister of Health please update the House on how our federal government is working with the provinces and territories to prevent further tragic occurrences from happening at long-term care homes and to ensure that our most vulnerable seniors are properly looked after and cared for? hon. I believe all Canadians were deeply horrified to read the details from the Canadian Armed Forces on the conditions in long-term care homes in Ontario. I had a very good conversation with my provincial and territorial counterparts last night about the work we can do at a national level to support their important work. We'll continue to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that they get the care and dignity they deserve. I will sadly report that my community of Pickering has experienced the largest number of deaths at a single COVID-19 outbreak location anywhere in this country. Yesterday, we received the horrific report from the Canadian Armed Forces detailing what they witnessed at Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes' Grace Manor in Brampton. The loved ones of those who have passed away, as well as the homes' workers, have asked for a full public inquiry from the Ontario government. I know that the responsibility for these facilities falls within provincial jurisdiction, but on behalf of our communities, can the Minister of Health update us on the work she is doing to ensure that the Ontario government takes action immediately and initiates a full, independent, non-partisan public inquiry and reverses its decision to create a government-led commission that won't even start until September? hon. Chair, I would say that all Canadians were shocked and horrified to hear about the conditions that existed in these particular care homes. We're so grateful to the members of the armed forces who not only improved conditions but also reported them quickly and appropriately to ensure amelioration of those conditions for those particular individuals. We also know that there are seniors all across the country who are struggling with care and with the appropriate level of care. I stand committed to working with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that we do better as a society. We know that there's a role we can play at the federal level with advice, with guidance, with support and, yes, with investments. We look forward to having those conversations about how best we can improve the care for all seniors amongst us. Canadians were horrified to hear the report yesterday from our armed forces about the appalling conditions experienced by seniors in our long-term care homes. Page after page detailed the filth, neglect, abuse and danger our seniors in care are exposed to on a daily basis. Shockingly they face injury and death through missed medications, expired medications, unsterile devices and violations of basic contagion rules to stop the spread of COVID-19. Given that evidence of possible criminal conduct was contained in the military's report, will the minister refer this matter to the RCMP for investigation immediately? hon. We understand in long-term care facilities both seniors and persons living with a disability face unique challenges, and the findings of this report are in fact deeply concerning and completely unacceptable. Considering the severity of this report, we promptly shared it with the Province of Ontario, and the Province of Ontario has initiated an investigation based on the report's findings. Their investigation includes alerting the province's chief coroner who has the authority to alert the police of jurisdiction. We will continue to work with the province to protect those living in long-term care facilities, and we continue to support them through the deployment of our outstanding Canadian Armed Forces and in our partnership with the Red Cross. Chair, that's a shocking answer considering there's clear evidence of criminal conduct and negligence in this. That this federal government is not taking immediate steps to refer this to the nation's RCMP is unacceptable. COVID-19 has exposed critical vulnerabilities across Canada's entire network of long-term care facilities. Not a single province or territory currently meets the benchmark of 4.1 hours of hands-on care per day. As a result Canada has the worst record of COVID-19 deaths in long-term care among 14 comparable countries, with over 80% of Canadian fatalities occurring in these facilities. Chair, the member opposite is exactly correct when he says that those who are hardest hit in terms of losing their lives and the negative effects of COVID are those who are living in long-term care homes. He's also correct when he indicates that COVID-19 has shown us what many of us have known for a long time, that we need to do better in long-term care and supports for seniors. As the member knows, we started those steps some four years ago or so when we began to make incredible investments in aging at home. We know that is one part of the solution, but we have to do better for those seniors who need a higher level of care. I'm working with my colleagues at the provinces and territories to make sure that we come up with a solution that will truly result in better standards for all. Chair, what we need is binding national standards, just like we set through the Canada Health Act in the health care sector generally. Gross fecal contamination, filthy medical equipment, insect infestations, ignoring patient cries for hourswe would never tolerate these conditions in Canada's hospitals. Will the minister move to bring long-term care facilities under the Canada Health Act, or similar legislation, with formal funds tied to acceptable standards of care for our seniors, just like we do for hospitals? hon. Chair, the member shares the disgust and concern of so many Canadians across the country, not only those who have read the report but many of those who have struggled to provide care to elders in those long-term care homes, regardless of the province in which they live. We know that collectively, at all levels of government, we must do better for those people who cared for us and nurtured us all of those years. The member has my commitment that I will work with provinces and territories to find a solution forward to ensure that every person has the right to age with dignity and safety. Davies, you have 15 seconds for another question, a short one, and leave time for a response. These failures are the product of systemic neglect often motivated by prioritizing profit over the provision of adequate care. Does the minister agree that we should not be putting profits above the health care needs of Canada's seniors? hon. Chair, I believe that, when we commit to taking care of people, we must do so with the utmost care that is required. We must all work together to protect those people in our lives who are most vulnerable, whether they be seniors, children or others. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. According to Vaughn Palmer in an editorial in the Vancouver Sun regarding the secret Wet'suwet'en deal, Palmer writes: The hereditary chiefs calculated the two governments would sign despite the objections from the elected chiefs. Can the minister describe another situation in which the federal government negotiated a secret deal of this magnitude with unelected people? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): I thank the member for his ongoing concern and I want to remind him that actually it is in keeping with the Supreme Court decision of 1997 that we were to now begin those conversations with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs who took the case to the Supreme Court. As we've said many times, this is not an agreement; this is an MOU that establishes the path forward for the substantive discussions towards a final agreement, which would describe the future governance and the implementation of Wet'suwet'en rights and title. Chair, if it is a shared commitment, why on the eve of the signing ceremony did the four elected chiefs denounce the hereditary chiefs for keeping them in the dark? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it's really important that the member understand that there was a process for the hereditary chiefs to go back to their communities and discuss with them. Any agreement after the good work that will happen now would have to go back and seek the approval of all of the communities. Chair, the Burns Lake Band members are openly wondering if they're still a band or if the few unelected hereditary chiefs will control everything now. Minister, can you assure them that going forward you will honour their concerns and take the time to listen? the acting chair (mr. carolyn bennett: Actually, the honourable member knows that the next steps include the further and ongoing engagement by the Wet'suwet'en in their house groups and that will include the six elected chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en nation, their community members and many others. Cynthia Joseph, a chief councillor with the Hagwilget First Nation says the MOU between Ottawa, the province and the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs was only shared with her community members on May 9, two days after it was published in the media. carolyn bennett: Walking the path of reconciliation means that we work with our partners and there is a way that they do the work within their communities. It is going to be an agreement to begin the work, but any final agreement is going to have to be approved by all members of the nation in terms of developing a consensus for the agreement the acting chair (mr. Does the minister have any concerns regarding claims by several former female hereditary chiefs that they were stripped of their hereditary status because they didn't agree with the men? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it is going to be really important that the work take place within the Wet'suwet'en nation to determine their future governance, to determine their way of working with Canada and to make sure the acting chair (mr. For some reason it seems to be a problem to stand up for these hereditary female chiefs who had their titles taken away. Does the minister plan on recognizing band council resolutions denying the authority of hereditary chiefs to sign any future agreements without consent of the elected chiefs and the 3,000 members within the Wet'suwet'en they represent? hon. carolyn bennett: I think the member must understand that, as we begin the work, the nation will do its work and then we will come to the table to determine what the governance would be. Will it be a hybrid model like at Heiltsuk, like Ktunaxa, like some of the communities developing their constitutions, developing their laws and deciding how they will determine their own governance and that partnership with Canada? the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The current restrictions on non-essential travel at the border do not prevent people from claiming refugee protection if they have family in Canada. We have heard from many constituents and members of Parliament from right across the country who are expressing concern about non-status spouses being denied entry into the country because their travel is deemed to be non-essential. I've recently been in touch with all of the provinces and territories because I think it's very important that we have their support for any changes the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus: If I understand correctly, Mr.Minister, you are talking to provincial representatives, but a case like that of ChantalTremblay, for instance, is unacceptable. For two months now, she has been trying to bring her spouse to Canada, but it isn't working. Is there a way to issue a directive to border services officers that married spousesit's often marriages with Americanscan cross the border to join their spouses in Canada? hon. bill blair: Just to be very clearagain, I thank the member opposite for the opportunity to clarify thisit is never our intention to separate families, but at the same time, we have imposed appropriate and necessary restrictions on non-essential travel. Our border services officers inquire of everyone coming to that border about the nature of their travel, and for non-citizens who come to that border seeking entry into Canada, if their entry is deemed non-essential, then they exercise their discretion not to allow the acting chair (mr. However, 100,000foreigners have entered Canada, even though the border is supposedly closed. How does the minister explain the fact that 100,000people arrived in Canada by plane? hon. We have imposed very significant restrictions on non-essential travel, but of course there are circumstances where individuals come to this country and their entry into Canada is deemed essential. For example, someone who is providing medical services and coming into Canada to provide those services would be deemed essential, because there is a great need among Canadians for those services. As you can see by the numbers, we have had a very significant reduction in the travel of all non-Canadians to Canada over the past two months. pierre paul-hus: So the minister confirms that the 100,000people who arrived by air were providing a service considered essential to Canada. I'm not talking about the people who crossed the land border, but the people who came to Canada by air. bill blair: What I can tell you is that at all points of entry, including our air borders, we apply the standard that the travel must be deemed essential, and that determination is utilized to see if a person is eligible to enter into the country. pierre paul-hus: We're now learning that the Correctional Service of Canada's investigation into the murder of MarylneLevesque is suspended due to the COVID-19 outbreak. Can the minister direct the Correctional Service of Canada to resume the investigation into the death of MarylneLevesque? hon. bill blair: Again, I thank the member for the question, because we know the concern of the people of Quebec, and the family of Ms. That's why we asked the Parole Board and the Correctional Service of Canada to convene a board of investigation. Clearly, during COVID transmission, the ability to conduct that investigation and to interview all of the witnesses became extremely difficult and has been temporarily suspended, but at the very earliest opportunity we remain resolute to resume that investigation and get to the bottom of it to provide the answers that the family deserves. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, victims of crime are one of the segments of the population most affected by the crisis. For the first time in its history, and to add insult to injury, the government has cancelled all activities related to Victims and Survivors of Crime Week, which was to take place next week. bill blair: Again, at the earliest days of COVID, until arrangements could be put in place, there were restrictions on victims participating. We have put the systems in place to allow victims to present their evidence virtually, either by video or by phone, to ensure that their voices are heard in these important things. We very much respect and support the role of victims in these determinations, and we're making every effort to ensure that they can participate. Chair, yesterday I asked the Minister of Small Business how many business credit availability guarantees were issued by EDC, and I didn't get a number. Money from this program is flowing, and businesses across the country are receiving the important support that they need. Chair, these are large loans, and they require important due diligence and adjudication by the financial institutions. mary ng: I want to assure the member that we're going to do everything possible to support businesses and workers during this very important time. james cumming: How many businesses have received funding under the BCAP co-lending program since March? hon. mary ng: The lending programs, particularly the program to help small businesses, have really helped lots of businesses. Over 630,000 loans have been issued, and this is really helping those the acting chair (mr. james cumming: Unfortunately, lots is not an answer for the businesses that I'm trying to talk to. Can you tell me, for the CEBA changes that were recently announced, when will we be able to see people who have income through a dividend able to apply? hon. Those small businesses that will meet the expanded CEBA criteria are working very diligently with the financial institutions to make sure that they can get access to those loans as quickly as possible. mary ng: The financial institutions are working very hard to make sure that they can make this available to businesses. mary ng: We will work very hard and very diligently to make sure that these businesses and those sole proprietors are supported. mary ng: There is nothing more important than making sure these businesses weather the difficult time of COVID-19, and our measures are the acting chair (mr. mary ng: Today, over 630,000 businesses have received the support to do things like pay for salaries, the 25% top-up for the wage subsidy, pay for rent and pay for insurance and utilities. james cumming: How many dollars are left in the program so businesses can have some certainty that the program will be available for some time? hon. mary ng: I think you will see that the businesses across the country that I have talked to really appreciate that the government has stepped up to help them during this difficult time. These include women with businesses, indigenous-owned businesses and those small businesses all across our communities, all across the country, that are getting the necessary help. mary ng: There are 630,000 businesses that are getting help, and thousands more businesses will be getting help with the expanded criteria. We're going to keep doing the work that we need to help our businesses across this country through this difficult time. james cumming: I heard from a constituent in my riding that they waited for over four hours on the portal for CECRA. james cumming: Finally, the Prime Minister yesterday said that a list of all organizations that have been receiving CEWS will be made public. mary ng: We have committed to making sure that those companies taking the wage subsidy program will be listed publicly. The Canadian Coast Guard is doing a search at this moment following the loss of a vessel off the coast of Newfoundland. From my community, which is a seafaring, fishing community, I just want to put my thoughts out there to the folks of Newfoundland. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): Thank you, Mr. I want to thank my colleague for his comments with regard to the tragic accident off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, where we saw the loss of life in a fishing accident. We have made available over half a billion dollars to processors and harvesters to make sure they can weather this storm. We have made sure that the harvesters are able to access the harvester benefit as well as the grant, recognizing the unique nature of their business and how they are not able to access some of our other programs. Chair, to continue along this vein for a moment, we are still looking at unstable markets for a longer period of time. The plants are filling up, and harvesters are worried that they might stop buying product before the season is complete. What can the fishermen expect, or what kinds of programs can they expect, if the season goes bust? hon. We also know that because of the decline in markets, we've had to make accommodations for the processing sector in order to help them be better able to support the harvesters. We have put in $62.5 million, which is allowing the processors to increase capacity in their refrigeration and freezers so that they will continue to be able to purchase product. As I said earlier, we will continue to monitor the situation and make sure we do everything possible to support our harvesters. Chair, I don't know whether this next question will go to the Minister of DFO or the Minister of Transport. For those who are far-sighted or nearsighted, you just have to put on your glasses to correct it. I don't know about space shuttles, but who knows? You can now wear colour-corrected lenses, but Transport Canada still does not recognize these for use. We have medical standards with respect to a number of different kinds of transportation-related jobs for pilots, mariners and those kinds of occupations, which have to be respected. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, the eligibility criteria for financial support include the need to demonstrate a significant loss of income during the months of March and April, yet several SMEs in the tourism industry can't qualify because their operations start with the tourist season, in late May or early June. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, before accessing the emergency wage subsidy, applicants must meet important criteria. However, as we explained last week, we will be adjusting the wage subsidy until the end of August, and we will be reviewing the criteria. bruce stanton): We're going to go to the west coast and the member for SaanichGulf Islands. My colleague, Jenica Atwin from Fredericton, held a press conference this morning in which she used the term echo pandemic. My question to the minister is this: Will we see direct funding to community mental health services as urgently requested by the Canadian Mental Health Association? hon. Chair, I read the honourable member's colleague's letter just today, and I want to reassure all members that we have invested in mental health supports for Canadians, obviously before the pandemic hit but certainly since we've been living with the pandemic. I'd like to remind all members to direct their constituents to the wellnesstogether.ca website and portal. There Canadians can find online resources, as well as connections to real and alive counsellors and other professionals who can help them with their various concerns. That's not just unprecedented over thousands of years; that's unprecedented over the last one million years. The recognized parties in the House have established standing committees to work, but not the committee on the environment. When will the recognized parties remember the June 2019 emergency resolution that we are in a climate emergency, and start making sure that we hit 2020 commitments under the Paris Agreement to improve our targets? hon. We realize that along with the COVID pandemic, which is the major problem that exists in the world today, there is another problem as well that affects the entire planet, and that is the problem associated with climate change. elizabeth may: My next question will be for Minister Blair, but as an aside, I will say that last answer completely fails to meet the legal requirements of the Paris Agreement to file a new target this year. To save some time, Minister Blair, let's pretend to go back to the questions from my colleague MP Paul-Hus and to your last answer. Could the minister please put out a directive, advice to every CBSA agent on the ground, that when a non-status entry point sees a non-status direct relativehusband, wife, child of a Canadian citizenthat relative be deemed to be entering Canada for an essential purpose? hon. At the same time, we've been working with the provinces and territories, listening to the concerns of Canadians about ensuring that travel across our international border, particularly with the United States, is limited to essential travel. As I've indicated, I've had a number of important conversations and necessary conversations with our provincial and territorial partners. I believe there is a consensus on the right way forward on this, and we're working very diligently to put it in place. I believe our border services officers have been doing an extraordinary job for us in the exercise of their discretion. At the same time, they have been doing the important work of ensuring the health and safety of Canadians at our border. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): Four out of the five homes listed in the armed forces report were for-profit. Will the minister admit that the for-profit model is failing our loved ones and commit to getting profits out of long-term care? hon. patty hajdu: As the member opposite notes, nobody can read that report or hear those stories without feeling absolute horror and disgust and without demanding better for the elders in our lives. As I have mentioned many times in the House, our government remains committed to working with provinces and territories to ensure that every elder person in our community can age with dignity and in safety. Will the minister make sure that the focus of long-term care homes is taking care of seniors and not taking care of owners' bank accounts? hon. patty hajdu: As the member will obviously know, long-term care remains in the jurisdiction of provinces and territories, and there is legislation that rules them as such. As the member also knows, we have stood by Ontario and all of the other provinces and territories throughout this outbreak. jenny kwan: Is the minister refusing to answer the question because she agrees that profit should come before care? hon. patty hajdu: I think it's unfortunate that the member is trying to place words in my mouth. What I do agree with, though, is that long-term care needs to be reformed, and I think all provinces and territories know, and all Canadians know, that we have to do a better job. Is she willing to defend for-profit care for our seniors? Is she in favour of for-profit private health care too? hon. patty hajdu: What I am willing to defend is the right for all Canadians to age with safety and dignity. jenny kwan: To the minister, what is the difference? Why sell out the care of our seniors? Will she commit that she will take profit out of long-term care? hon. Chair, I think the member opposite knows that the only way to actually reform long-term care is to work with provinces and territories, in fact, all levels of government, to ensure that the people who spent their lives caring for and nurturing us can end their lives with caring and nurturing the acting chair (mr. Since the government owns these homes, has the military been sent in there to see what's happening to seniors under their care? hon. Chair, we know that it is important to work with all of the provinces and territories under whose jurisdiction it falls to protect the seniors within those care homes. That's what we've been doing since the beginning of the outbreak of the coronavirus, and that's what we'll continue to do to protect the lives of seniors and strengthen their protection. Chair, work with the provinces and territories to have a longer-term plan so that all seniors can age with dignity and safety. What is the government doing to ensure the standards of care in these Revera homes that they own? hon. Chair, as I have repeatedly said, the jurisdiction for care of long-term care homes falls within the provincial and territorial realm. Chair, we have been there for provinces and territories since the outbreak of the coronavirus, and as the member opposite has clearly or likely heard the Prime Minister say, we will stand with provinces and territories as all elders have the right to age with dignity the acting chair (mr. Do you think that the families of the seniors in these homes want to hear those excuses about jurisdictional issues? Does the minister not think that the families want to hear that the federal government is doing all it can to care for their parents? the acting chair (mr. Quite frankly, I don't think that families care which level of government is responsible for caring for their elders. That's in fact what our government believes, and that's why we have willingly stepped up to say to provinces and territories that we will be there with you to make sure that all seniors in our lives have the right to age with dignity and care. bruce stanton): We will now give the floor to Mrs.Gill, from the riding of Manicouagan. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Mr.Chair, my question is for the Prime Minister who, earlier, clearly told us that the government's assistance is intended for those who are most in need and most vulnerable. I don't know if the PrimeMinister read the newspapers yesterday, but in Quebec, losses to the tune of $4billion are expected until March2021 in the tourism accommodation sector alone. How can I justify to my constituents the fact that a political party, which does not need it, has already seen money from the emergency wage subsidy, when people in my riding don't yet have access to it because of the seasonal nature of their work? These people haven't seen the money that is available through these programs. bill morneau: We think it is very important to protect the country's employees in all sectors of the economy. Through this approach, there will be more jobs after the pandemic, and the economic situation will be better. They are saying that they are protecting the jobs of the Liberal Party of Canada, which does not need the money. Another program was created for them, which isn't quite the same and doesn't really meet their needs. A government whose political wingnot the parliamentary wingdoesn't really need money takes money from the fund, but leaves fishers to make do with less generous programs that don't meet their needs. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that many sectors of the economy across the country are facing challenges. We will continue our approach because we believe it's the best way to protect employees and our economy. The government is saying that the best way to proceed is to give money to the political wing of the Liberal Party of Canada, when there are people who are getting nothing. What am I supposed to tell seasonal workers, who have absolutely no assurances for their future? I can't go back to my riding and say I'm proud of the work the government is doing or our efforts in the House. I have a very hard time accepting that the government is helping employees of the Liberal Party in preparation for the next election campaign, when communities in my region are dying because their economies revolve around a single industry. I can't tell them I'm not ashamed of what's going on as we speak. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we felt it was necessary to put emergency programs in place in response to the crisis during the pandemic. The emergency wage subsidy is a program that is clearly meant to ensure employees are protected and maintain their relationship with their employer. As for the Canada emergency response benefit, it means a lot to people who don't have a job. We are going to stick to our approach, which is to use consistent criteria to help all employees and all Canadians around the country struggling in any sector of the economy. marilne gill: Mr.Chair, I think the honourable Minister of Finance lives in an ivory tower. However, people who need that money, people who are actually losing money or who don't know if they'll even be working this summer are getting zilch. Are the Liberals going to return that money? Is the finance minister going to help all sectors of the economy, including tourism, fisheries and seasonal industries? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for her question. The emergency wage subsidy is meant for any sector of the economy where revenues have dropped by 30% or more. We are also providing the Canada emergency response benefit to other employees, meaning, those who have lost their income because of COVID-19. Consequently, we will keep up our approach to ensure we continue to fare as well as possible and the economy works well after the pandemic. bruce stanton): Now we'll go to our last group of interventions, and that will be from Ms. I'd like to begin with a shout-out to the brave waiters and waitresses at our local Earls restaurant and Browns Socialhouse, who have been opened again for on-site dining this week. we're beginning to find our new normal, and it was great to see how small businesses have so quickly adapted their establishments to keep their workers and patrons safe while allowing people to get back to the business of living. Chair, here in my riding I recently had contact with the mayor of Langley City who was wondering if I had any way of accessing personal protective gear, because our local firefighters were running out of stock. Then again yesterday, I spoke with one of our local homeless shelters that is also looking for PPE. Tam is telling all Canadians to wear masks in public, but I'm wondering if the Minister of Public Service and Procurement could tell us where exactly we're going to get all those masks with the current shortage. anita anand: I want to be clear that our priority as a federal government has been to respond to provincial and territorial requests for PPE that goes to front-line health care workers. That is our priority, and we've been procuring goods aggressively in domestic and international markets. We are now actively also exploring ways in which we can assist broader organizations across the country with PPE needs, and that is something that I'll continue to update the House on as we go forward. tamara jansen: A Globe and Mail article revealed that government orders for N95 masks have steadily been dropping. Chair, the number of N95 masks ordered, as reported on the department's website, does continue to fall. Will the minister tell us why we seem to continue to struggle to supply PPE to Canadians? hon. anita anand: It is no secret that we are in a global competition for N95 masks and other supplies, so the Government of Canada's approach is to diversify supply chains internationally and build up and retool domestic industry so that we can have these supplies going forward. In terms of the numbers on our web page, we have short-term and long-term contracts in place the acting chair (mr. tamara jansen: Yes, I understand that a number of Chinese mask manufacturers have been nationalized, and products for Canadians have been confiscated by the CCP government. Is the drop in N95 orders due to, in actual fact, contracts being cancelled? hon. anita anand: On N95 masks, I would like to assure the member and the House that we have multiple contracts in place for the procurement of N95 masks, including with 3M in the United States, whose masks are crossing our border weekly over the next month. We have our embassy and other firms actively ensuring that our supplies from the manufacturing source make their way to the warehouse. tamara jansen: We know many millions of N95 masks have arrived in Canada from China and have been substandard. Chair, as previously explained to the House, about eight million masks did not meet spec by the Public Health Agency of Canada and have been repurposed to some extent in other areas of the system. tamara jansen: In a previous committee, the deputy minister advised us that Medicom was shoulder-tapped by the government to consider producing PPE. anita anand: We have operated in a very urgent way in order to procure supplies for front-line health care workers. It's a multi-pronged approach, and our priority is to get supplies out to front-line health care workers in this time of crisis as quickly as possible. bruce stanton): Just before we adjourn, I think this another mark of accomplishment on behalf of the great team here at the House of Commons. My compliments to all members joining us here in the House and to all members who have joined by virtual conference

The government is working closely with the provinces to ensure workplace safety and support workers who feel their workplace is unsafe. The Estyn inspection regime is evolving and moving towards more regular inspections in schools. The categorization system is used to identify support for schools. ERW is an example of an organization that does things differently and is effective in delivering for children and teachers. The regional consortia are not controlled by the government but are created by local authorities to meet their needs. The opposition party claims that the government is not cooperating with the UK, their largest trading partner, but the minister assures that CETA will continue to apply to trade with the UK during Brexit.

What guidance does the federal government provide regarding employment concerns? How are schools and their governing bodies held accountable for their practice and work? Why was Education through Regional Working taken as an example? What was the debate about the UK's economic bilateral relations?

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Okay well user interface: But where did you get that information ? project manager: That's in a newsflash . marketing: that's that's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: Okay . Yeah well we can skip this part as well , because I thought I read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because they find it very interesting . and and also there's so not only the design of the bus buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . And I think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , nice design , which does not make the remote control in your room . marketing: It's it's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . So it's the people can say , well what's that , well that's my remote control , so it's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that project manager: Yeah . marketing: Yeah so but I I don't think that's that's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . industrial designer: user interface: How do I project manager: You pressed alt F_ four ? user interface: No no no . user interface: this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . marketing: Yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . industrial designer: And we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: And the speech recognition yeah . We have to to make them very easy so for just zapping around the channels you can just push one button . user interface: But if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an an advanced option . marketing: Yeah but the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . marketing: Yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . marketing: And the and the yeah screen menu to to to to do that , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: So it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , with a clear menu . project manager: So what does the screen do ? They said they needed it but what does it do ? What do they want with the screen ? user interface: For for the advanced functions I think . marketing: Yeah well it yeah it didn't project manager: So but what did the marketing marketing: it didn't say what they want to do with the screen . marketing: Well I , my guess is it's it's pretty handy for advanced advanced functions . user interface: the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . marketing: Well you can improvise right ? project manager: which one is it ? Technical functions ? industrial designer: Yeah a little bit . user interface: project manager: You didn't put it in ? Or industrial designer: I have no idea . marketing: So we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . So I was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about remote controls . industrial designer: so I didn't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . industrial designer: I was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and I was supposed to do it like this . But yeah then the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that I had to follow , so I was trying to organise them for myself . Mean you press a button the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: And then through a transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the T_V_ project manager: Yeah decoder . industrial designer: I dunno if I'm too slow for this stuff , but project manager: Work harder . marketing: user interface: Okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . for those that didn't see yet the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for T_V_ . it should be designed for a use g group below forty , but I don't think it's w wrong if we can target the current customer group as well . And we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let's see what was it , the target group . project manager: Yeah so I think it's easy but marketing: I guess that's that's the tar yeah or male and female user interface: But it's it's also for children or just project manager: Yeah it's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . marketing: Sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . marketing: How do you mean ? project manager: So is it from sixteen to forty ? Is it from twenty to forty ? Is it from thirty ? marketing: sixteen to forty . user interface: And if we have a larger public we have yeah more options to to sell our product . industrial designer: Yeah so what we might wanna do is yeah cust I have customised the screen functions , if you know what . industrial designer: The younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . user interface: Yeah that's that's why I wanted to to make yeah two different yeah groups of functions . The the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: But all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: Na I w I should put the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: Yeah . So is you should have a menu for all the the functions you don't use regular and which are marketing: you can make a if you make a drawing . project manager: Yeah we get the marketing: Yeah well , this is basically it's industrial designer: The remote ? project manager: The remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? well usually the power button is on top I guess . user interface: Yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . So it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your thumb , also reach the middle . marketing: Okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . marketing: Okay for example if you put the screen here , it's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: You want the normal piece of paper ? And you have a pen ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah ? marketing: Like if you have like ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: marketing: So you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume project manager: And left to right . I thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . project manager: Yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: And you you have industrial designer: And marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . marketing: Then okay to confirm , and then on on each on each screen there's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . user interface: And do we need a a logo on our remote control , or marketing: That's more your your department to to to project manager: Yeah . But it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: On the left top yeah . Yeah the position of the screen is also more essential than we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . marketing: But Yeah so it should be if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . This would be industrial designer: Why did we wanna put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i project manager: No that's not s sure so industrial designer: Okay . marketing: but it's user interface: Yeah may maybe because you're industrial designer: Because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: Yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you're going to use the advanced option , you're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: But most most of the times if a if if a T_V_'s on standby people just press a channel to put it on . project manager: Yeah but then it's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: But if you if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: Yeah okay . Can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: Yeah it doesn't matter that much . So but the screen is on top ? Which functions did we have left ? this is basically numbers , volume , channel up and down . project manager: So maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and and image options right ? project manager: Yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: Like bass marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah user interface: Yeah it it's just a remote control so project manager: and they're industrial designer: Yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: Coffee ? marketing: yeah sound and then within sound I guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: Yes please . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: Yeah isn't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you're watching . industrial designer: And yeah in the functionality of the user interface: Television itself industrial designer: no no of the remote do do we want the buttons to make sound when you press them ? As a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: . marketing: most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: We we could make an option for it , but you can disable s industrial designer: Under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . marketing: Yeah but people don't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it's very hard to project manager: . project manager: And the others were in your presentation right ? So I can just copy those ? marketing: Well yeah well I guess that these were the only ones , I guess . project manager: Yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , according to the old principle . project manager: And the L_C_D_ options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared decoder yeah . marketing: Yeah with the chip and then project manager: So you You have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? So you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your T_V_ . project manager: Yeah so I've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: Yeah , autoseek . project manager: name a channel , or marketing: Well most T_V_s automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . marketing: It only has to match the the channel frequency on your T_V_ , with with the with the position on your T_V_ and and so your remote . Yeah but can you also say I want f Veronica on the channel number five or industrial designer: Help . How do you call that ? marketing: Yeah how do you call that ? ? Wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . marketing: Just browse through it and then in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . other functions ? marketing: So you most of the time if you if you swap it S let's say for example you have R_T_L_ five on on channel five . And Veronica on channel eight and you want to move Veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous the previous one . project manager: That's you're industrial designer: He only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: Yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: And how user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: And the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as I believe . project manager: marketing: Or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? To programme the channels ? project manager: No I don't think so . project manager: No that's the marketing: you you current channel and then then it just says , on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it's it's saved . It's easier , it's it's it's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: The User Interface Designer can design a menu for all these function I put them on the marketing: Yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: On the yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . marketing: So project manager: So you design the basic function menu for the L_C_D_ screen ? I think marketing: And and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th I think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: The the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and I think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the screen itself on the marketing: . industrial designer: I have to know what it has to do , so if you wanna you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , I have to integrate that in the design . user interface: But do I have to to to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? Or project manager: Yeah . user interface: Yeah ? I I'm going to make project manager: I think i that's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: Yeah we have to kind of work together . industrial designer: If if I make the the the yeah the menu like , I have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: But we're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . Y you you are going to make a list of what functions are are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: Yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: So some menus . marketing: So it's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a Nokia or like that . marketing: To go one step back you it's only two extra buttons , user interface: Yeah . W we marketing: but if it if it's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: I think we have to to group , to make two groups . the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah but they're incorporated ? Up and down is user interface: Yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: Yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that's that's not project manager: Smart ? user interface: yeah if you're if you're z zapping with your yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: And and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: Put it on top . user interface: Yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . But we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: Well user interface: F oh yeah . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: industrial designer: I think you should . So we have a a menu button and a s project manager: And to , okay and back , also . Both the L_C_D_ marketing: Should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: Yeah I'm I'm not s clear about the the extra two buttons . user interface: Okay so that that's not Yeah that Those are project manager: Those are both both user interface: multifunctional . industrial designer: Hey is it interesting for users if we put LED lights under the buttons ? So that if you press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . project manager: Light marketing: Yeah that's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . project manager: marketing: So project manager: Anything else ? marketing: Those buttons are are lit up . Should we use those two ? Them ? Or only this to to scroll ? project manager: I've marketing: And then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? Oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: Volume . industrial designer: Yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . user interface: No industrial designer: The pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: Yeah okay go ahead . marketing: Yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , is if you're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you're not already at your choice . user interface: Yeah the with with the the channel and the volume yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and I have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . user interface: But do we have to write to write down the our stuff now ? Or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: Okay . project manager: marketing: project manager: I think you can put the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'Kay . marketing: Aye Y you saved it ? Does it save automatically in the project folder ? Or project manager: Yeah . It's it's just my own map so I put everything into the project manager: Yeah yeah yeah . user interface: But you got some extra information project manager: Yeah that's in the functional design folder . marketing: industrial designer: So first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: Yeah <doc-sep>marketing: Where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: I just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: The conceptual or industrial designer: yeah I think so . Because I see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: No no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause it has to be PowerPoint pre yeah components design , that's it . industrial designer: 'cause I knew that I didn't have time so I just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: Ah , project manager: Ah . marketing: I can't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: You can look at the final report , 'cause I have to record everything we are deciding and such , so I'm trying to write it down between everything else . industrial designer: Sometimes I have these pop-ups or these sounds and there's nothing there , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: and also with I don't know how to use PowerPoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to f the remote control has to support . project manager: Yes ? industrial designer: Who wants to start ? marketing: Me first again or project manager: Yeah sure . So the developments I will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . Well the first aspect was twice as important as the second aspect,w which was twice as important as the third aspect . user interface: marketing: nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: Yeah . Yeah you're just the user interface ? user interface: It's better than than my drawing . And I used possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . I could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so I don't have examples of how it looks like . But it comes down to what you what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking type . If you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not solid straight lines anymore . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: There's a lot of options that we have to discuss . we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we Dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . industrial designer: the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: Which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wanna use the project manager: marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there's n isn't much light like in Scandinavia , they wouldn't be y able to use it half of the year you know . I wasn't able to finish my personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it's daring and different from what we have now . industrial designer: Well we have all kinds of hard materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . industrial designer: Electronics ? Yeah , maybe we wanna decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip I think is easiest to implement for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . I first chose for the battery , 'cause yeah I'm traditional and that's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . user interface: Or combine both with a with one project manager: I think you can only fit one source of energy on the industrial designer: Yeah maybe we marketing: I guess we can only choose one . But it is more longlasting , that the people don't have to ever buy batteries again . I always chuck my remote control around , so marketing: Yeah , just playing with it project manager: Yeah . It can be done , you can't harm it , project manager: S yeah it's safe . industrial designer: You don't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . marketing: So double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: No it means curved in two dimensions . So w single curved ? let's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . So Yeah yeah that's one thing which I'm not sure of how to implement it into the remote control . project manager: Well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: Design ? user interface: No okay but it has to be combined with with the menu for functions and project manager: but you can Yeah . user interface: But do j do we do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: Both . Everybody says it so that's what's yeah Yeah in the in the last meeting we we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . And only the the L_C_D_ panel will light up and then you can only change the yeah the options . project manager: user interface: you have to delete this but this is the the the simple layout . user interface: display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: You did read the minutes I wrote ? user interface: project manager: You did read the minutes I wrote ? user interface: What ? A little bit I think but not not everything w industrial designer: I project manager: Oh okay 'cause I pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . user interface: But But this is the the basic design for the for the m yeah for the buttons . And if there are older people they wanted more yeah more luxurous so that's an a also an option . Okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? energy source , chip type , case type . industrial designer: Yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and and f audio function . industrial designer: I'm just thinking , this is not my department , but I I'm not sure what this is gonna cost , marketing: Kinetic . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: I didn't get any info on this . industrial designer: That's gonna be difficult huh ? marketing: The cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: I have total here . project manager: Yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: it's it's quite difficult because we we haven't got all the options yeah . do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? And could you put that in the group folder ? Of the project folder . marketing: If you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: Yeah I'm going there now . marketing: I got my fresh and fyoo fruity picture also over there , so project manager: Ah you didn't draw it yourself . industrial designer: S see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form yeah serves the function , you know . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . And user interface: But it has also to it it has also to be luxurous for for yeah rich people . industrial designer: Yeah but that's that's the the problem yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: Distinction . industrial designer: 'cause we wanna appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . industrial designer: Yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: The colour Yeah . Okay but the the colours , you you can make it make the colours with LEDs beneath the the buttons . user interface: If you press a button and you can disable the the colour LEDs for for people that don't like it . industrial designer: To customise it and so kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more design , they can go for one colour project manager: Different . marketing: industrial designer: Just give me the thing that it's inside there project manager: Yeah but this this the is for the . industrial designer: A compromise between what ? project manager: instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . marketing: Yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: Yeah that would be an option . industrial designer: And I I'm I'm thinking you know a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . user interface: Yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . user interface: If you have it have it in your hand , you you you are not only yeah you don't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . Something to shoot at your television industrial designer: Yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: industrial designer: That would be a nice way to use it but , yeah , I'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand I think . marketing: Maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: To switch from buttons to interface . industrial designer: How about marketing: Well well you have it in your hand so it's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . And the buttons are more , well it's very thick now but industrial designer: Yeah I understand what you mean . marketing: That's that's industrial designer: How about we do a a pop-up screen , like the laptop . marketing: Yeah ? That that you can press it and then it comes up ? Or industrial designer: And then if you want project manager: so you have a the the side view . marketing: maybe it's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: No like project manager: . industrial designer: Yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . user interface: But you you want industrial designer: F for the L_C_D_ menu right ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: So w w project manager: No not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto automatically . Yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: That's but it's it's not industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the L_C_D_ screen and it won't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . marketing: An adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: That actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: Okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . project manager: What kind of industrial designer: Yeah I was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: Harder . marketing: Yeah the lower part doesn't work I guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: industrial designer: That you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . So it's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: But when you are left-handed , that's that's a problem . user interface: But that's that's very expensive industrial designer: Like like you drew here . user interface: We we could make some some rubber some rubber yeah mouse , with which you can change industrial designer: project manager: Oh yeah . marketing: we have to make industrial designer: Yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . marketing: Yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: And also the screen , you cannot mould it . marketing: But that's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: And then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: You can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: So the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: And but then I w I would marketing: Spongey . marketing: Spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: Those buttons ? And the simple buttons here , user interface: . And and the and the control thngs in the middle ? The the the arrows ? industrial designer: I y eah that's what . industrial designer: or do we wanna make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: I dunno . project manager: Yeah that's user interface: marketing: bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: so it's better to have some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary colours . industrial designer: Yeah we could make marketing: I don't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? Like some soft green or something ? project manager: Orange or something . marketing: Or and then user interface: Or blue ? Dark blue or marketing: Oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: We should use marketing: and then and then very bright , a yellow banana , an orange , a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Yeah but the primary colours w we can create with the with the LEDs on the on the remote control . If you make it just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more yeah for the people . project manager: Y marketing: So that's that's a dark blue basic colour I guess . industrial designer: Like you have on the Samsung , well I don't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause I remember from one of our first meetings that people lose their remote controls often . marketing: Yeah ? industrial designer: So it not not only in in the colours of the LEDs , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: How do you mean ? project manager: Yeah if you if flashing colour so you can't lose it , basically . project manager: Well I think it's a bit too much but user interface: Maybe a industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: but it's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is pretty high . user interface: And which which colour should should I give the the display ? project manager: Who ? user interface: Or marketing: the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: Ah well I don't guess it s has to be a sixty sixty six five thousand colour , so yeah too expensive . J industrial designer: As long as you loo use high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: So that people with with marketing: White backlight , and dark . Or is it too expensive ? marketing: But maybe they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: It's difficult . industrial designer: But don't we wanna make the background the the bright colo colours ? So th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: Yeah you can industrial designer: Like the pictures I showed you guys . user interface: It's it's not industrial designer: The green ? project manager: Why ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: But the but the buttons have their own LEDs or not ? project manager: They have LEDs but they have a colour . marketing: How do you mean ? project manager: they they don't determine the colour that much , I think . Yeah I I was think about a red red LEDs and blue LEDs and project manager: 'Cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: No that's that's too busy I guess . project manager: So you can't change the colour so marketing: You better bet better better keep the LED and the button itself in the same colour I guess . industrial designer: what we should do I think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with one coloured LED behind it . industrial designer: as the colour the And if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: Okay with Don't mean to discourage you but basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . project manager: Yeah about user interface: marketing: So wh how should I do that ? project manager: Yeah I don't know . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: Yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you don't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . industrial designer: So we're gonna work here ? On this sketchboard ? project manager: Yeah . user interface: But we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: Alright . user interface: Ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: So if you'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: Current colour ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah 'cause I have to focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . And you have to think how we're gonna put the screen in it and those kind of things . industrial designer: So if I'm drawing and you think okay I'm not gonna be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: That's included . Excuse me ? marketing: Well it's a good thing that the buttons aren't , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . industrial designer: How do we marketing: Erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: I dunno . industrial designer: I thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather a bit thicker than the middle , where you're holding it with your project manager: Jesus . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: The middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . marketing: I don't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: Exactly but the but the upper side has to be a bit more like that I think . user interface: Yeah the display , industrial designer: don't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: So the display we will put in here , the basic functions in here , where it's most reachable . user interface: industrial designer: What do don't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: No it's it's it's okay . industrial designer: So this is gonna be from the marketing: I is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: from user interface: From the marketing: woah . marketing: So then it's like this , industrial designer: Yeah ? marketing: or that's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it's better to have it somewhat like this . Or does it flip all the way ? user interface: Yeah I'm I'm industrial designer: The the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: May maybe it's it's easier to to integrate the the the L_C_D_ screen just into this this bubble . user interface: Because here marketing: It's better to to have this like this I guess , and then flip it like this . user interface: But why why do we need the flipping industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . industrial designer: Yeah because I think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: Yeah . marketing: user interface: the the shape is okay but yeah ? I don't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping mechanism . It's it's for for for more trendy marketing: Yeah but maybe Yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: Because we have enough space . marketing: Yeah there the middle Sh sh shouldn't we integrate it ? user interface: Yeah and then h we sh . user interface: marketing: Okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it doesn't fall on the screen . user interface: Yeah , then it's marketing: So there's a layer of rubber on the side . project manager: marketing: So no flipping but just user interface: No flipping or project manager: No flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: Yeah I guess but most votes count right ? user interface: But if you if you If you drop it it it just breaks . user interface: And it's also for the for the children , it's yeah for people not sixteen years . user interface: But there are more marketing: they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their remote control . user interface: Okay wi industrial designer: Remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a Gameboy . project manager: I don't see any power cables here so industrial designer: Let's see . But do we want options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah I'm just thinking , if we i we wanna make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? So the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons <doc-sep>project manager: If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time . project manager: standard chip , 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't gonna be a problem factor . and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . user interface: Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it user interface: I can hold it like project manager: Make sure the camera's user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: and I'll I'll show you the presentation . user interface: so industrial designer: Can I just nick your project manager: Yes , yes you can . user interface: Oh , where are the hinges ? project manager: industrial designer: Okay , so project manager: Right . industrial designer: And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've come up with over there . You able to look ? industrial designer: It's gonna have a a plastic body with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something . industrial designer: which there'd be sort of a wide choice they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that . industrial designer: the wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . industrial designer: and the the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of how do you say , it's yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top user interface: The black and white touch screen wherein people can project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: And working on the inside we've already said d decided on the kinetic batteries , which actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of project manager: So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: we decided that the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something . industrial designer: yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . the standard , there's be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about . industrial designer: it would it would have obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . And because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared sender would be on the on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the we haven't I don't think we actually put it on . It's still pointing , industrial designer: So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ . The top screen , as we said , is would be an inset black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen user interface: This one right here . industrial designer: which yeah would have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and things to that effect . industrial designer: And now we've we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have some some kind of sort of bezzled logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top . user interface: Which is project manager: But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product industrial designer: No d not not actually . No , not interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's on the thing . industrial designer: And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics , project manager: Thank you very much . marketing: This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours . marketing: The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ? user interface: Ah , it's perfect . industrial designer: marketing: we're going to look at these crite So user interface: Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market marketing: Yes , user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: we're going to come to w we'll discuss each one project manager: It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who . industrial designer: Yeah , I'd yeah I'd probably put it two yeah , marketing: I'll just go this way . marketing: Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? two and three quarters , it that right . marketing: oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ? user interface: in Yep , I just got marketing: Okay . user interface: marketing: So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered Okay , user interface: two point f marketing: and we're just waiting for your rating project manager: It's just two point five for that one . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ? user interface: industrial designer: marketing: We'll just put almost two , project manager: One point seven f five . marketing: it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here . industrial designer: Yeah , that's marketing: Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ? industrial designer: No , no , the the base colour was white or or like or l sort of a light blue , user interface: White . industrial designer: but the changeable fa faces would allow you to get any basically any one of a number of colours that th it's full sort of customised . user interface: Any marketing: So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do . industrial designer: No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic . marketing: We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_ industrial designer: It's meant to be . project manager: maybe because it's slightl industrial designer: project manager: with the size that we've got it's quite small , industrial designer: project manager: but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much . project manager: So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between . Yeah , I'd I'd f I'd go for a five , actually , marketing: A five , okay . marketing: Twenty one is that twenty one ? user interface: marketing: So that's four point two five . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ? industrial designer: Yeah , it was it was a voice voice recognition , user interface: Voice r recognition . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise . I'd go for a I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or . industrial designer: I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand project manager: A standard . project manager: And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room . industrial designer: I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product , project manager: marketing: So , user interface: industrial designer: but marketing: how do we feel about this ? industrial designer: marketing: We've got our our we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the six criteria there . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ? project manager: I don't think so . industrial designer: W I thin yeah , I think marketing: We happy to go ahead ? project manager: I think we yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ? project manager: Don't think so . user interface: You want me to b unplug that ? industrial designer: user interface: That's all . project manager: Now I presume that the screen will go blank , industrial designer: project manager: that Okay . Right , what's happening with the electronics ? industrial designer: It was a regular chip on print user interface: Chip on print . industrial designer: Oh , no , no , no , the Yeah , it's you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number project manager: Oh , right , industrial designer: of c yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: So , would there be two ? industrial designer: and yeah , just a no , one reg v project manager: One chip . project manager: So what's a single curve then ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w marketing: It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . industrial designer: yeah , I think I think it's user interface: Single-cu project manager: So just one double industrial designer: One double-curved . industrial designer: no , 'cause one yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's marketing: The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . user interface: No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing , project manager: user interface: we can put point five . project manager: Do you think ? user interface: Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . marketing: What does it mean if you put point five for that ? user interface: It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . project manager: we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ? industrial designer: No , no , that's it's as an extra . industrial designer: So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get . marketing: But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ? industrial designer: marketing: There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ? project manager: Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half . project manager: Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway . Okay , special colour , do we need that ? marketing: Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours . project manager: Buttons industrial designer: And buttons marketing: S user interface: I think we could change the battery also . marketing: Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ? project manager: Has that not gone up ? industrial designer: Well yes . marketing: So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though , marketing: Is there anything on the menu project manager: I think marketing: No . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ? user interface: And going to a regular bat Yeah . The biggest one would be taking away if you took away user interface: What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery . user interface: But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi marketing: And people are used to buying batteries , industrial designer: If if you take away the voice , marketing: they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control . industrial designer: I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it . marketing: Should we see what difference it makes ? project manager: Where's the industrial designer: Yeah i yeah . project manager: where's the voice recognition ? industrial designer: No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker . We can do it some other way , user interface: project manager: we can do it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version . industrial designer: But they but in I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product . marketing: But we're still working to head o project manager: So should we just change the design specification then ? user interface: Make it costly . If we if we're working to head office specifications as this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings . industrial designer: We c we could s marketing: But we need to work to that specification to start with . industrial designer: Yeah , we could say marketing: And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers project manager: Okay , we can make the price fit , industrial designer: Yeah , I s project manager: and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this , industrial designer: And then say we recommend marketing: . project manager: Right , okay , so marketing: So if we take voice recognition out industrial designer: That'll do it . industrial designer: Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ? user interface: Two five . project manager: Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five , marketing: Right . Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ? user interface: It's twelve point five maybe , then . So half of the price would be project manager: I think the agenda one was where the price was , wasn't it ? No . project manager: is that got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: 'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah . user interface: Except voice recognition , everything is project manager: Right , so we've done that . project manager: Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't didn't feel able to make . project manager: in the sense that did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like autonomy ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'd say , as a team . marketing: And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary . How did you find it ? industrial designer: Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good . industrial designer: I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different , project manager: Yeah . project manager: I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down , user interface: Yeah . project manager: you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . marketing: user interface: I think that was the best part project manager: I'm still not caught up . user interface: of the industrial designer: project manager: But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: Discuss which ones marketing: How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: Could it've been better , was it adequate ? industrial designer: Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more . project manager: Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general , marketing: It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in , project manager: rather than industrial designer: Yeah . Well user interface: Yeah , it's project manager: they have to come from somewhere , don't they ? marketing: Absolutely , yeah . user interface: The thing is project manager: And as sh as w sorry , user interface: Yep , sorry , project manager: you go . project manager: as was shown by your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly . project manager: they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about , marketing: They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit . industrial designer: because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ . project manager: But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you , industrial designer: No . project manager: they could even go into you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being a plastic was being made for you . user interface: Surprising to me is like people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that . Like Sarah was telling , everything's marketing: I think it's really good that this has been very market research based , user interface: Right . marketing: because just going back to mobile phones , this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . marketing: I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore project manager: Yeah . marketing: and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based . project manager: And you can't get you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone , marketing: . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: our costs are below budget with recommendations that they the budget be increased , but I think I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ? user interface: industrial designer: Well . project manager: So it looks well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that . project manager: So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at . project manager: But I think but you were saying that that's quite industrial designer: Yeah , I think yeah I don't from the market research . marketing: and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for . Yeah , it was marketing: I think we've done very well to get within budget project manager: . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas project manager: Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it . project manager: Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with everything that I fell behind with , industrial designer: In your project manager: so I'll be delegating in my role as Project Supervisor , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy . industrial designer: Was that not the questionnaire for the how you felt you'd done in your thing ? marketing: Oh , right . marketing: But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ? industrial designer: Yeah , the the s marketing: Yeah <doc-sep>project manager: No on the desktop you'll find you should find that there's a project documents link . We introduced ourselves , discussed the possibility of a macro facility , interac interacting the T_V_ a bit more , mentioning of bar-code , joystick for user manipulation , and ergonomics of the remote control as well . also key is the corporate image should stay recognisable , f your colour and slogan of course is down at the bottom there . Just to say quickly I would have thought that only being used for a television the macro facility may now not be required . I'd like to if possible hear from our Marketing Expert first , to help us gain an idea of where we're going to go . marketing: Okay , so we did some research , we asked one hundred people their opinions on remote controls . We asked some open ended questions , just , what are your opinions on the remote control , got a lot of re responses , and we asked some very specific questions , and we got a lot of good feedback . Please bear in mind this is only a hundred people , so even when the groups are divided into fifteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , there's only maybe ten people fifteen people in each group . I often lose my remote control , the back of the couch , some place , and even if it's not lost permanently , it takes me a few minutes to find it . I remember trying to load a D_V_D_ player recently , and there were so many buttons , it took me I don't know maybe ten minutes to to go through each button , 'cause you have to press the shift button to access the yellow buttons , you know there's just a lot of stuff that no one really uses . I've seen some remote controls that are big , they have a lot of buttons , you have to hold down more than one key at one time to do something , they're just not great to use . Between the age of fifteen and twenty five , most people would be willing to pay extra for voice recognition software . Most people'd be willing to pay for that most people want remote controls to be pretty , they want it to be fancy , th they they want it to be different , everybody has a white remote control with black buttons , and a red button and a green button , not everybody wants that . It's a bit sketchy at some times , you're not gonna get good always accurate results , but for a very fixed number of words , you know you have , how many different words can you have for a remote control , up , down , left , right , channel five , channel seven , you know , how many , you can't have that many words . But after a while people may wanna return it , because if you have to to say som most people use a remote control for switching to channels , and they say they do that about ninety eight percent of the time . Using the remote control , ninety eight percent of the time for changing channels , and that's for flickering through channels . So if you have to say up , up , up , up , if you have to do that all the time , then people might get a bit fed up with that and they may return it . However , oh , because the voice recognition software exists already , there's no need to spend money on research and development , but this does mean the need for microphones in the in the remote control , which is an unusual feature in my opinion . But if we do have the voice recognition thing , there's a lot of stuff that you can get rid of . Either you have voice recognition by itself , which I think is a bit impractical for like night time if you wanna be watching television and you wanna be quiet , or I don't know you have a visitor coming round and the remote's only trained for you , it's a bit impractical to have just voice recognition by itself . But imagine you got rid of the regular remote part , then you can design the remote to look any way you want it to look , because there are no restrictions on physical size , or shape , it it could be as fancy as you want it to be , you know , it could be like a lollipop or something like that , something weird like that . marketing: So we have the three birds , we have the design , that we have the the fancy bit , right , the voice recognition's fancy , it's cool , it's different , it's radical , so , and then we have an extra bit I don't remember so I'm pretty sure people will buy the remote , but is it practical to have a voice recognition system in a remote control , I think is a big question . , will people will people be willing to wait for the the period that it'll take to train the remote , 'cause I think it will the remote will get better over time with the same user user , but for the first week or for the first two weeks are you willing to wait , are you willing to have a bad remote control . And what if you have visitors come round , they stay the night , they wanna use the T_V_ , they can't use the remote because they speak differently to you . , will people return the remote control , I think a lot of young people will buy the remote control , if they have the money , you know , so , project manager: If you could marketing: do our audience have the money , but would they return it after a while because it's not as fast as pressing a button , it's not a practical . project manager: sor marketing: I think it's cool , project manager: if you could speed it up a bit , yeah . project manager: you've got your presentation now , industrial designer: How did where did user interface: Yeah , it's in the it's in the folder project manager: is it on the industrial designer: where did you get all your in information ? user interface: yeah . user interface: Okay , this is a brief run through of the of the technical functions of the remote . As is the the the presentation is already slightly obsolete because I had in mind something that would be i be aimed at controlling multiple devices but there's still stuff of relevance , so project manager: Okay . I've looked at looked at a num couple of other remote control models just for an idea of basic design principles . and wasn't really satisfied by what I saw I have to say so this is more sort of springboard for how these could be improved on . basically the job of the device is to send commands to an appliance , in this case the television set . On the one hand and this this particularly relates to its sort of earliest models where with you know i so so many buttons on it so about the size of the television set . And most of these functions are not going to be used , it creates a rather user unfriendly interface . And on the other hand there's a user focused approach that pares things down to just what what is most likely to get used . With a and a and of course there is a certain amount of sort of loss of function here obviously , but mostly that's relatively peripheral functions . And so you go for something that's fairly intuitive to use , and well f the for the most part for T_V_ remote it's tha that would be channel control and volume . and if you if you if you are wanting to incorporate control of a D_V_ D_V_D_ or V_C_R_ presumably into that then there's a play , pause , stop , rewind , fast-forward , record , so forth . but the pro I think the problem with a lot of the sort of user focused designs that are about is that they sort of make assumptions in advance about what what a given user's going to want mo want to do from want it to do most . So , something that's something that is more programmable , that perh perhaps has the full range of functions available to it but you can then specify yourself what you're most likely to want . so that those are then immediately accessible through fairly minimal number of controls , I liked Ebenezer's idea of including a joystick in that and possibly a sort of fairly minimal number of sort of function buttons , and have a disp you then have some sort of basic display on it so that if you're sort of cha changing from different modes for the device it'll tell you just exactly what you know each direction of the of the joystick's going to do or wha or what each function button's going to do . , this is actually a again slightly taking inspiration off of games controllers , you know the Playstation control where you have four basic function buttons marketing: . user interface: that are just marked with distinctive geometrical shapes but the and then dependent on what you're doing with it what game and so on those those functions are then sort of further specified . Click to save in where do I have to save it ? project manager: If you look on the desktop you'll find that there's a link to the project folder , or project documents . project manager: Are you finding it okay or ? industrial designer: I'm just closing it now . marketing: Well like if you go to one , whichever one you were working industrial designer: that's it there , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . industrial designer: right I'm responsible for working design , this is basically the inside going on of the the remote control . So we have the energy source , we have the user interface , this this is what I've seen . the sender will push the button , the chip will respond , and then the dig digital signal is sent to the T_V_ . So , if you go to next slide , you'll see you'll see what do we need on the user interface . Do we need many buttons , or do we need l many light bulbs that could be easier to to realise which appliances are on or not . , or would that take too much power , would we need more components in there to supply the power ? , the joystick is another thing , if we were gonna add that , there'd be more components to deal with that . industrial designer: so we need to I dunno exactly what That's the design of the the the layout of the electronic design , obviously there'll be more details once we've decided what we're putting on the user interface . marketing: industrial designer: I just used the it was a mess , I was just putting adding it together at the end there . industrial designer: so you have the energy source obviously connected to the chip , and the user interface obviously contains everything . You have the switch turn it on , infrared bulb , will contact the T_V_ and will have whatever device or D_V_D_ player , the bulb will turn on to say it's on . , so do we need on the control different buttons to decide , or different light bulbs , would it be easier ? , I dunno what we should decide on that . So , we've had some stuff put forward , along with the new user requirements , we've had a lot of kind of input I'd say so far . The power required , and the ability to the cost , it seems like for an embedded system , this could cause us issues . project manager: for example you see that there's fairly robust services on computers via via voice , I_B_M_ do drag and dictate , but these require a lot of memory marketing: voice activation could be an interesting idea but I think that our Ind Industrial Designer would probably upon some research say that it's maybe not feasible . project manager: however the idea of a joystick and then maybe an L_C_D_ which has been kind of put forward so far , it's almost like having a small T_ not T_V_ to say , but if you can control almost all of the functionality from the display , I don't know how much power an L_C_D_ would take , but it might be quite low ? marketing: . I industrial designer: L_C_D_ on the remote just telling you what's on , or , interactive L_C_D_ or project manager: Well literally if you can imagine the display maybe slightly larger than those on a a mobile phone , user interface: . project manager: something where you can read an an fair amount of information , traverse maybe quite a few menus , if we maybe used mobile phones as a good example , they usually incorporate they have the keypad , and then evr all the other functionality is usually associated inside by traversing around . and then we could have like say the common buttons as you say , volume control , changing channels user interface: . I I was thinking that the remote the sort of default functions for the joystick would be up and down for volume , left and right for channels . project manager: We industrial designer: Do you think that people will get mixed up , like , they'll be looking at this screen and that screen and then , you know , trying to get everything working , would it be a bit confusing ? user interface: I think probably for the first couple of hours of using it industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: though I w I would say that we could probably probably be required to mo most of the mobile phone displays you see these days are colour but we should probably try to stick to black and white . colour could be a sort of subsequent development but you know cost a bit of extra money f w w w w w once everyone's got the first , you know , oh colour's out , we'll have to replace it won't we . project manager: That would be my feeling as well , I think we could possibly create quite a useful user interface . now I don't marketing: Sure but the idea of a remote with a menu or and a joystick I think like I h if I was in the habit of buying remote controls then I would want one , project manager: sorry , go for it . marketing: but I think we don't have a specific audience , you know , like what is our target audience , what niche are niche are we trying to market and corner . You know , you know what I'm saying , like , for whom is this intended ? Everybody ? project manager: I think it could probably be aimed at most people who've used a mobile . project manager: if we are if we were to follow that avenue , we might be s you know we're kind of almost relying on their experience with a mobile phone I suppose . project manager: I imagine as well that the actual L_C_D_ and maybe to a certain extent the joystick as well would be for the additional functionality . Which maybe doesn't get used as often , maybe it makes it easy for them to figure out how to change the channels as in the frequencies and such for reprogramming it . project manager: and you can still have the main buttons that allow the people to turn the machine on and off , d up and down , it depends , maybe we have the fol the joystick as a separate one for the other functions then , that there's just a a small number of as you were saying buttons that have already been defined . And they can completely ignore most of the functionality which would be for say the o actual owner of the the T_V_ marketing: user interface: is that you you you then basically you can then basically put it for for T_ T_ for T_V_ remote alone , you could put there are like I say the the the main things people do with a T_V_ remote control is the volume and the channel . user interface: But but the but then o obviously if you know if you i if you wanted to access further functions i you you then get to sort of menu navigation . with things like ch with things like tuning and channels you know adjusting brightn brightness and fiddly things that no one really bothers with , most T_V_s these days actually have menus anyway so this would be a fairly rational way of integra project manager: if we are most of the of the replacement remote market is sort of remote control rationalisation . user interface: you want one wo y you want one that'll do the job of all of them . , if all you're replacing is one of the you know however many remotes you have in your living room , you know you still need separate remotes for everything else . user interface: I just think that possibly project manager: Well this is a requirement that we have to stick to I'm afraid , user interface: . project manager: So this is this is one of the solid ones that has to be obeyed , for now . project manager: So I can understand your point , and I would agree with you , but this is our design spec for now . user interface: Does that would that include access to say interactive functions on digital or cable ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: I would say so , yes , because then we have to be able to control the remote boxes , and that is a separate unit . I think that it I would say that the design spec we've been with is for the television only for now . Maybe we'll hear differently , but for now marketing: So the joystick is just for differentness . Try and sell it t sell it to them to supply with project manager: There is that possibility , yes . B However I don't know exactly where we'll be going with that , but it might not even be the avenue of the Marketing Expert , marketing: . It's just , the way I figure it , twelve point five Euros per unit , we have to sell at least like three million or something like that , project manager: marketing: not to account for all the the money we waste on remotes that no one buys , you know , like if we made a perf if we made a ks for every remote we made someone bought it , then we have to sell a lot of remote controls . marketing: We just Is this gonna be enough to to sell ? project manager: Well , something else that you brought up was the ability to lose a remote , which as you said you've done , in fact we've probably all done . project manager: I don't know if it's a gimmick or not , but have any of you ever seen those odd little key rings where if you whistle , it will beep and you tell you where it is . marketing: I had one of those , and my brother , and my dad , could have beat me up project manager: . project manager: well I was going to say clapping , digital telephones , for example , one unit has of course you have to have that base unit , somewhere where there's a button , but maybe it's a button that you attach to the T_V_ . project manager: Something which you when you press that , it would beep to give its location away , on the remote unit . project manager: And that way , because we're attaching what would be a small button to the T_V_ , again say what , it would be a small transmitter , watch battery type scenario I would say , or something that if it was problems enough you could actually even just I don't power that might be something that we could look into . Yeah , it's putting a lot on your shoulders there , so that could be something that separates us a bit from the market as well . Before we leave this meeting , it would be best to say this is what we're going this is the design we're gonna try and get , this is how we're gonna make ourselves look unique . project manager: Do we go for maybe a remote contro sorry , we're gonna go for a remote control obviously , do we go for a small joystick that would operate say changing channels , up and down , and then , what , another button that would say that it's now being used to manoeuvre round the L_C_D_ . project manager: We could use say the left and right for changing channels and the up and down for volume , user interface: For volume . project manager: and marketing: But we have a frequency of how what people use a remote control for most . marketing: power is used like once per hour , industrial designer: I marketing: channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight per hour , project manager: marketing: that's by far the biggest one , and then teletext , is still here , that's like fourteen , project manager: Vol Volume selection okay , yep , marketing: and volume selection . project manager: the teletext we're gambling with , and we're gonna say it's dead , the way of the dodo marketing: No , yeah , okay okay . Yeah , project manager: So we well , sorry , we could maybe even go as far as saying power button , small joystick , L_C_D_ , and then what maybe is it one more button to say that you're using the menu system , and with the possibility of pushing down on the joystick to say okay ? So we're having very very few buttons involved , user interface: Actually how project manager: but navigation around a menu for most things . user interface: Actually I would say maybe two two function buttons , the y we're now using the menus button and and an og and an okay button . certainly something I've found with the joystick on mo the joysticks on mobile phones is that a lot of the time th the device mistakes you trying to move it in one direction or the other for pushing down for okay . user interface: The o the o the other dis design constraint I think we should bear in mind is that people are you know very much used to using a remote control one handedly , so we need to make sure that e even with the joystick , you know something that can just sit comfortably in the palm of the hand and have the joystick just controlled by the thumb . Do we incorporate the idea of trying to f locate the remote control again via a beeping noise ? industrial designer: Yeah , think so . project manager: Do you mind looking ? marketing: I think because it's so small it might be an if we only have like two three buttons it might be essential to have to have that project manager: The ability to locate it again . project manager: So that would require a transmitter maybe attached to the T_V_ , just so that it says find me , and what , a basically a small microphone on the actual unit , can maybe hide it in the base . So so industrial designer: no ? project manager: Sorry ? user interface: a small speaker you mean . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Nah , you'd see it anyway , if you hear it . project manager: E us we might be better with the sound possibly we could maybe incorporate marketing: W those little key-rings have both , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: th e the true fact , considering the cost of an L_E_D_ , we could just incorporate it anyway . project manager: by the sounds of it , with what we're suggesting so far , your design the user interface is still quite open , you could go for quite an interesting design . project manager: Because we're only going to have a very few key and you've got you know a small L_C_D_ , joystick , e I think it leaves you open to a a potential wide range of shapes , something that can make it stand out slightly . project manager: if you could look into what we've suggested so far , the feasibility of small transmitter , and such , maybe if an L_C_D_ screen requires too much power , or such . Ebenezer , Marketing Expert marketing: Well I can give you the frequency , what people what options people use most often , I guess that's gonna be important in the ts defining the the software side of the interface , right . project manager: yeah if you could maybe as well see what people think about the idea of this minimalist approach that we've taken , where of a joystick to control the very basic functions , and then the idea of manipulating it like you would a mobile . project manager: I don't know how easy that will be within the time frame , marketing: Okay . project manager: Feel free to email me if you think that we've screwed something up and wanna get it rectified as soon as possible . industrial designer: So I should just look at the speaker , the speaker and an L_E_D_ . user interface: project manager: Speaker and L_E_D_ for locating , industrial designer: And marketing: Transmitter . , if we do end up trying to market this to television manufacturers then the then the transmitter could actually be built into the television . , and something that we can can easily be adopted at the last minute as well I'd say . project manager: The electronics could be s either placed externally or internally , makes no difference to the final product of the actual remote control , user interface: user interface: if it w if we get a major television manufacturer to say y oh yeah we'll have that , save us the bother , then that's you know vast amounts of sales . industrial designer: P project manager: Oh , one thing that we've almost not talked about at all , my apologies for that , user interface , we also need to maybe get the slogan in here , it's , industrial designer: Fashion . industrial designer: yeah , the slogan's we put the fashion in electronics , isn't it ? project manager: My apologies . , I think that's l almost the last minute thing industrial designer: 'S also look cool . project manager: So I'm not too concerned a that we haven't gone into depth about that . But it might be something you could consider when you're thinking about shapes ? user interface: project manager: In fact we might like to put a slogan on , and possibly the two R_s to signify the company <doc-sep>I think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say the requirements that we've set out . Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on a small joystick , L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . So we'll just crack on , like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible . industrial designer: I'll just project manager: This meeting is the conceptual design phase and is Sorry about this . And is to cover things like what the parts might be made of , can we outsource these from elsewhere , will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: I have a presentation I just saved it in the the folder . joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it , could be plastic w or rubber even as well . can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else a solar powered one . project manager: the kinetic one , we've 'cause that's the ones where like you the movement causes it . project manager: the bat the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power , would be my one query . project manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you'd say ? industrial designer: . one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . the materials are tha there as you can see , but you can't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: Titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: which would be Yeah , marketing: Is it not also it's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . , I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: . project manager: could you maybe draw something ? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect , it's just 'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two . Well for a curved , well I was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . industrial designer: which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but you can't have it in titanium , which is a nice material . industrial designer: and for the buttons , it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s . but it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive . if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve control and it's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . But you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: Yeah . So , depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display . project manager: do you have any idea so far , like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_ , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? Or ? marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip . Yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah i project manager: Okay , should I go on , or go back ? industrial designer: marketing: if we only have twelve Pounds fifty , twelve Euros , not even twelve Pounds . Twelve Euros , what's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine Pounds ? project manager: Well we'd also be relying on the the bulk buying in producement and such . If you go to the one before that so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_ . the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then it'll send it to the tr the amplifier . industrial designer: And then the next slide just shows how the copper wires interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , to get sent to the chip . So in the information that you've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks ? industrial designer: I think we can do it if we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . project manager: I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm I don't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber for reasons I'll go into in more detail . Now I'm gonna have to work between the the slides and the and the white board project manager: Yeah . I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving various ideas from from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today . so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes , ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . and try and f and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on , so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . and what we've basically decided on was the the the joy the joystick , two function buttons and the L_C_D_ , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . I don't actually think we need the the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels , so if there's something f and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: Ah , okay . user interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then your V_C_ and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player . You must have two two modes , basic mode , where the joystick's left right left right for channels , up down for volume , and the and the menu mode for further functions . now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design , it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . project manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: basi basically what I basically what the what be having , I would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you're handing it from a lef left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the the L_C_ the L_C_D_ and the The joystick would be in the right place . And also this is a rather nicer de design gimmick that the the you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: Okay . project manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say , I guess . The Assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , hol holding the remote , the the joystick unit should rest over the the joint of the f of the four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb . and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for left or right handed users . You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . You just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . , and that marketing: Is this the joystick ? user interface: Th this part here is the joystick . And you then have , at the at the bottom , the L_C_D_ , and this would need to be articulated as well . And again , this part could be rotated , so it can So so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . So the t the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . And you could download programs for it from for T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers . though you i it would be necessary to have have a m have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet . We compared whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . And then we we research fashion trends in Europe , what's what's the new black , project manager: Okay . we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that's a bonus , but they don't care so much , you know . People want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . And easy to use , it it just so happens that from the second point to the third point is twice as important the second point is twice as important as the third point . People want it I is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . The fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . project manager: marketing: But I I see I come on to that in the next in the next slide . If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it's spongy , then can I skip the rest ? industrial designer: Oh yeah , I forgot to mention that . marketing: So so my personal opinion ? we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool , that's that's different , you know , that's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it's the up to the interface guy . So if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . It could be something like , I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do . I think maybe they were I don't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: So if we want something strong and sturdy , I say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it doesn't matter , it's spongy material , it's not gonna break , you know . I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable . So how do things fit it ? And if we are gonna use spongy , we can say it's long lasting , you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . So just to summarise , people want stuff that's cool , that's that looks like it's cool , and if it is cool then that's a bonus doesn't have to be people like fruit and veg . If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . So , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . project manager: Well , I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway . You always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway . project manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so I don't exactly what cost would be incurred . I can see your point about the number keypad , but I've I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: project manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of boxes as well having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: Yeah , actually if you've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it's you know if you're trying to remember what , you know , what number's the discovery channel or whatever . user interface: But if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components , say something like lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most small hand held devices now . Though I'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: Yeah , I I would say definitely , the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . So project manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? I can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in the structure , do you think ? user interface: . industrial designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . marketing: user interface: if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . If you then have a sort of outer skin of flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and I think would look rather co mi rather cool . my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but . industrial designer: project manager: However , one interesting point is , I don't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: It's an certainly a different colour from your average user interface: Make it harder to lose , as well . project manager: Was there anything in your research marketing: The noise for when you lose the banana , f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: I th if it I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , I I don't know . user interface: Well basi basically the for f for e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that the T_V_ responds to . user interface: So usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the remote , and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your ma find your manufacturer marketing: marketing: That's because televisions , they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . But if we had some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_ user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: booklet . This person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: Yeah . project manager: Doesn't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that's right , yeah . marketing: and it's user interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to to actually purchasing it , so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about . user interface: If you if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . project manager: Okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage . I think we've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of rubber and such , so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . So for example , I'll just start at the top , you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it'll be hard not to , obviously . The user interface design , They're kind of it looks they're the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: . project manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , I would say . but then again , the the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . So and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . marketing: Yeah , you see I don't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . project manager: I I think we'd be yeah , no , it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . project manager: so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar . project manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? marketing: Okay , sure . At this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . project manager: the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that's stylish , so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: And it's stylish . project manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then , they've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . project manager: Although of course at twenty five Euros , I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the device . U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . project manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming industrial designer: Oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_ , or are we gonna project manager: It's just for T_V_ , but for marketing: Different . project manager: programming it to use your T_V_ , you might hook it up to the P_C_ . project manager: I'm not sure , but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive . user interface: Yeah , marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something . marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . The other thing it it would need to ha it would need to have some sort of on board memory anyway . user interface: f for one for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be although you know , it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be o ought to be customisable and marketing: Different languages , different skins and stuff like that . How how how you want say the the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels . I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? So . marketing: It would make sense if you could project manager: and we'd better be careful about the time as well . project manager: So user interface: Where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: they're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: Yeah . user interface: I having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wanna keep the company brand as well , user interface: project manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on . Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . I was like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the on the top function button

The Marketing team initially proposed using titanium as the material for the front side of the remote control, as it would give a strong appearance without being too difficult to handle. However, they acknowledged that the dark color of titanium might not appeal to the younger demographic. Therefore, they decided against using titanium as the main material. Market research indicated that people between the ages of 15 and 25 would be willing to pay extra for voice recognition. However, Marketing pointed out that this preference did not necessarily imply a desire for a fancy or unique remote control. They highlighted issues with existing voice recognition software, such as word limitations and inaccurate results due to regional accents. As a result, Marketing deemed the incorporation of voice recognition to be unfeasible. Initially, Marketing had concerns that the Industrial Designer's choice of materials for the prototype would limit the fashion style. However, they were convinced by the Industrial Designer's explanation that changeable faces would allow users to customize their remote controls. Additionally, the rubber case would provide a spongy feel. Marketing gave one point to the Industrial Designer's style design. Based on their research, Marketing found that existing remote controls were unsatisfactory in terms of appearance, feel, ease of use, and findability. They also identified areas for improvement, such as the brightness of the screen and color options. During the Industrial Designer's presentation, the team discussed the choice of materials, including rubber, plastic, and titanium. Marketing expressed a preference for rubber due to its spongy feel, damage resistance, and reasonable price compared to titanium.

What were Marketing's thoughts on the appearance design, speech recognition system, ideal materials, voice recognition incorporation, current fashion trends, previous remote controls, and rubber material when evaluating and discussing the new remote control?

grad a: And you should be able to see which one which one you 're on by , watching the little bars change . grad a: So , actually , if you guys wanna go ahead and read digits now , as long as you 've signed the consent form , that 's alright . grad e: Are we supposed to read digits at the same time ? grad a: No . We 're talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult . grad a: So , when you 're reading the digit strings , the first thing to do is just say which transcript you 're on . You can see the transcript ? There 's two large number strings on the digits ? So you would just read that one . And the pause is just so the person transcribing it can tell where one line ends and the other begins . And I 'll give I 'll read the digit strings first , so can see how that goes . Well , why don't I go ahead and read digit strings and then we can go on from there . All of you look like you 're doing it reasonably correctly , but you want it about two thumb widths away from your mouth , and then , at the corner . And that 's so that you minimize breath sounds , so that when you 're breathing , you don't breathe into the mike . And the short form , you should read the consent form , but , the thing to notice is that we will give you an opportunity to edit a all the transcripts . So , if you say things and you don't want them to be released to the general public , which , these will be available at some point to anyone who wants them , you 'll be given an opportunity by email , to bleep out any portions you don't like . , should I Do you want me to talk at all about why we 're doing this and what this project is ? professor c: yeah . Oh grad e: Does Nancy know that we 're meeting in here ? grad b: I sent an email . So are the people going to be identified by name ? grad a: Well , what we 're gonna we 'll anonymize it in the transcript . So , then in terms of people worrying about , excising things from the transcript , it 's unlikely . Oh , I see , but the a but the but the grad a: Right , so if I said , " Oh , hi Jerry , how are you ? " , we 're not gonna go through and cancel out the " Jerry "s . grad a: so we will go through and , in the speaker ID tags there 'll be , you know , M - one O seven , M - one O eight . grad a: it w , I don't know a good way of doing it on the audio , and still have people who are doing discourse research be able to use the data . grad a: And so we don't wanna have to do aliases professor c: Right . grad a: So I think that it 's better just as a pro post - process to edit out every time you bash Microsoft . The idea is that you 'd be able to put a PDA at the table at an impromptu meeting , and record it , and then be able to do querying and retrieval later on , on the meeting . So that 's my particular interest , is a portable device to do m , information retrieval on meetings . And so what we wanted is a room that 's instrumented with both the table top microphones , and these are very high quality pressure zone mikes , as well as the close talking mikes . What the close talk ng talking mikes gives us is some ground truth , gives us , high quality audio , especially for people who aren't interested in the acoustic parts of this corpus . So , for people who are more interested in language , we didn't want to penalize them by having only the far field mikes available . So that 's why we 're recording in parallel with the close talking and the far field at the same time . And then , all these channels are recorded simultaneously and framed synchronously so that you can also do things like , beam - forming on all the microphones and do research like that . Our intention is to release this data to the public , probably through f through a body like the LDC . So because the general environment is so challenging , we decided to to do at least one set of digit strings to give ourselves something easier . And it 's exactly the same digit strings as in TI - digits , which is a common connected digits corpus . grad a: OK , so when the l last person comes in , just have them wear a wireless . So , the most important form is the consent form , so just be s be sure everyone signs that , if they consent . grad b: I 'm sure it 's pretty usual for meetings that people come late , grad a: Yeah . And , just give me a call , which , my number 's up there when your meeting is over . grad a: And I 'm going to leave the mike here but it 's n , but I 'm not gonna be on so don't have them use this one . So you guys who got email about this oh f , Friday or something about what we 're up to . grad e: What was the nature of the email ? professor c: Oh , this was about , inferring intentions from features in context , and the words , like " s go to see " , or " visit " , or some grad b: Wel - we I I I professor c: You didn't get it ? grad e: I don't think I did . We could pursue , if we thought it 's it 's worth it but , I think we we will agree on that , to come up with a with a sort of very , very first crude prototype , and do some implementation work , and do some some research , and some modeling . So the idea is if you want to go somewhere , and focus on that object down Oh , I can actually walk with this . Now , we found in our , data and from experiments , that there 's three things you can do . If you want to actually go up or into the tower , you have to go this way , and then through some buildings and up some stairs and so forth . If you actually want to see the tower , and that 's what actually most people want to do , is just have a good look of it , take a picture for the family , you have to go this way , and go up here . grad b: or so That 's ab er , i the street network of our geographic information system . It would always use the closest point to the object , and then the tourists would be faced , you know , in front of a wall , but it would do them absolutely no good . grad e: What 's it what 's it made out of ? grad b: r red limestone . Okay , I This , These intentions , we w w we could , if we want to , call it the the Vista mode , where we just want to eh s get the overview or look at it , the Enter mode , and the , well , Tango mode . So But sometimes the the Tango mode is really relevant in the in the sense that , if you want to , If you don't have the intention of entering your building , but you know that something is really close to it , and you just want to approach it , or get to that building . Consider , for example , the Post Office in Chicago , a building so large that it has its own zip code . So , I 've looked , through twenty some , I didn't look through all the data . , and there there 's , a lot more different ways in people , the ways people phrase how to g get if they want to get to a certain place . Maybe I should go back a couple of steps and go through the professor c: No , OK come in , sit down . grad b: Is I I think grad e: No , that one 's already on , I thought he said . , people , when they w when they want to go to a building , sometimes they just want to look at it . I I gave an example where the point where you end up if you want to look at it is completely different from where if you want to enter it . So , this is sort of how people may , may phrase those requests to a a a mock - up system at least that 's the way they did it . And we get tons of of these " how do I get to " , " I want to go to " , but also , " give me directions to " , and " I would like to see " . And , what we can sort of do , if we look closer a closer at the the data That was the wrong one . This is of course a crucial factor , " what type of object is it ? " So , some buildings you just don't want to take pictures of . Sometimes I found in the , looking at the data , in a superficial way , I found some s sort of modifiers that that m may also give us a hint , " I 'm trying to get to " Nuh ? " I need to get to " . Sort of hints to the fact that you 're not really sightseeing and and just f there for pleasure and so forth and so on . That whatever it is you 're doing at the moment may also inter influence the interpretation of of a phrase . What we do know , is that the parser we use in the SmartKom system will never differentiate between any of these . So it 's it 's it 's way too crude to d capture those differences in intentions . So , I thought , " Mmm ! Maybe for a deep understanding task , that 's a nice sort of playground or first little thing . " Where we can start it and n sort of look " OK , we need , we gonna get those M - three - L structures . We may need additional part of speech , or maybe just some information on the verb , and modifiers , auxiliaries . And I will try to to sort of come up with a list of factors that we need to get out of there , and maybe we want to get a g switch for the context . So this is not something which we can actually monitor , now , but just is something we can set . And then you can all imagine sort of a a constrained satisfaction program , depending on on what , comes out . We want to have an a structure resulting if we feed it through a belief - net or or something along those lines . We 'd get an inferred intention , we we produce a structure that differentiates between the Vista , the Enter , and the , Tango mode . So we think it 's a well - formed , starter task for this , deeper understanding in the tourist domain . grad f: So , where exactly is the , deeper understanding being done ? Like , s is it before the Bayes - net ? Is it , professor c: Well , it 's the it 's it 's always all of it . But it 's deep enough that you can distinguish between these th three quite different kinds of , going to see some tourist thing . And , so that 's that 's the quote " deep " that we 're trying to get at . And , Robert 's point is that the current front - end doesn't give you any way to Not only doesn't it do it , but it also doesn't give you enough information to do it . It isn't like , if you just took what the front - end gives you , and used some clever inference algorithm on it , you would be able to figure out which of these is going on . So , and this is Bu - I in general it 's gonna be true of any kind of deep understanding , there 's gonna be contextual things , there 're gonna be linguistic things , there 're gonna be discourse things , and they gotta be combined . And , my idea on how to combine them is with a belief - net , although it may turn out that t some totally different thing is gonna work better . , the idea would be that you , take your You 're editing your slide ? grad b: Yeah . So the thing is , i , d naively speaking , you 've you 've got a for this little task , a belief - net , which is going to have as output , the conditional pr probability of one of three things , that the person wants to , to View it , to Enter it , or to Tango with it . And , then the question is there are two questions is , one , where do you get this i information from , and two , what 's the structure of the belief - net ? So what are the conditional probabilities of this , that , and the other , given these things ? And you probably need intermediate nodes . So it may well be that , for example , that , knowing whether Oh , another thing you want is some information abou I think , about the time of day . And , if things are obviously closed , then , you grad b: People won't want to enter it . And , if it 's not obvious , you may want to actually , point out to people that it 's closed you know , what they 're g going to is closed and they don't have the option of entering it . grad b: s b professor c: So another thing that can come up , and will come up as soon as you get serious about this is , that another option of course is to have a more of a dialogue . So one thing you could do is build a little system that , said , " whenever you got a question like that I 've got one of three answers . grad b: But maybe that 's a false state of the system , that it 's too close to call . You want the you want the ability to a You want the ability to ask , but what you don't wanna do is onl build a system that always asks every time , and i That 's not getting at the scientific problem , grad b: professor c: and it 's In general you 're you know , it 's gonna be much more complex than that . , I think also the the the deep understanding part of it is is going to be in there to the extent that we , want it in terms of our modeling . We can start , you know , basic from human beings , model that , its motions , going , walking , seeing , we can mem model all of that and then compose whatever inferences o we make out of these really conceptual primitives . S so so the way that might come up , if you wanna Suppose you wanted to do that , you might say , " , as an intermediate step in your belief - net , is there a Source - Path - Goal schema involved ? " OK ? And if so , is there a focus on the goal ? Or is there a focus on the path ? or something . And that could be , one of the conditiona you know , th the In some piece of the belief - net , that could be the the appropriate thing to enter . grad f: So , where would we extract that information from ? From the M - three - L ? professor c: No . See , the M - three - L is not gonna give th What he was saying is , the M - three - L does not have any of that . grad e: The M - three - L is the old SmartKom output ? professor c: Right . professor c: So we have th w we we we have to have a better w way of referring to grad b: The parser output ? professor c: grad b: " Analyzed speech " I think it 's what they call it , professor c: Yeah . grad b: o th No , actually , intention lattices is what we 're gonna get . professor c: Is - i but they c they call it intention lattice , but tha grad b: In - in a intention lattice k Hypothesis . So , th they 're gonna give us some cr or We can assume that y you get this crude information . And they don't give you the kind of object , they don't give you any discourse history , if you want to keep that you have to keep it somewhere else . grad e: So , if someone says , " I wanna touch the side of the Powder - Tower " , that would basically , we need to pop up Tango mode and the and the directions ? professor c: If i if Yeah , if it got as simple as that , yeah . But that doesn't necessarily But we 'd have to infer a Source - Path - Goal to some degree for touching the side , right ? grad b: Well , th the there is a p a point there if I understand you . " Where is the city hall ? " And this do they don't wanna sh see it on a map , or they don't wanna know it 's five hundred yards away from you , or that it 's to the your north . Where is that damn thing ? grad e: And the parser would output grad b: Well , that 's a a question mark . sh A lot of parsers , just , That 's way beyond their scope , is of interpreting that . You know ? But , still outcome w the outcome will be some form of structure , with the town hall and maybe saying it 's a WH focus on the town hall . grad e: I 'm just trying to figure out what the SmartKom system would output , depending on these things . grad b: it will probably tell you how far away it is , at least that 's That 's even what Deep Map does . Because i we can not differentiate , at the moment , between , you know , the intention of wanting to go there or the intention of just know wanting to know where where it is . grad d: People no might not be able to infer that either , right ? Like the fact Like , I could imagine if someone came up to me and asked , " Where 's the city hall ? " , I might say , g ar " Are you trying to get there ? " Because how I describe , t its location , p probably depend on whether I think I should give them , you know , directions now , or say , you know , whatever , " It 's half a mile away " or something like that . grad b: because where people ask you , " Where is New York ? " , you will tell them it 's on the East Coast . grad b: Y y eh you won't tell them how to get there , ft you know , take that bus to the airport and blah - blah - blah . grad b: But if it 's the post office , you will tell them how to get there . professor c: But i Go go back to the the , th grad b: So I w this is " onto " is is knowledge about buildings , professor c: Yeah , that slide . grad b: their opening times , and then t coupled with time of day , this should You know . grad d: So that context was like , their presumed purpose context , i like business or travel , as well as the utterance context , like , " I 'm now standing at this place at this time " . professor c: Yeah , well I think we ought to d a As we have all along , d We we 've been distu distinguishing between situational context , which is what you have as context , and discourse context , grad b: And , so what we were talking about doing , a a as a first shot , is not doing any of the linguistics . So , the the the reason the belief - net is in blue , is the notion would be , this may be a bad dis bad idea , but the idea is to take as a first goal , see if we could actually build a belief - net that would make this three way distinction , in a plausible way , given these We have all these transcripts and we 're able to , by hand , extract the features to put in the belief - net . Saying , " Aha ! here 're the things which , if you get them out of out of the language and discourse , and put them into the belief - net , it would tell you which of these three , intentions is most likely . " And if to actually do that , build it , you know , run it y y run it on the data where you hand - transcribe the parameters . th th i i if you can't do this task , grad b: We need a different , engine . Well it i I if it if it 's the belief - nets , we we 'll switch to you know , logic or some terrible thing , but I don't think that 's gonna be the case . I think that , if we can get the information , a belief - net is a perfectly good way of doing the inferential combination of it . The real issue is , do what are the factors involved in determining this ? And I don't know . grad d: I missed the beginning , but , I guess could you back to the slide , the previous one ? So , is it that it 's , These are all factors that , a These are the ones that you said that we are going to ignore now ? or that we want to take into account ? You were saying n professor c: Take them into account . And and it 's clear from the data , like , sorta the correct answer in each case . professor c: Let 's go back to th Let 's go back to the the the slide of data . grad d: That 's that 's the thing I 'm curious ab grad b: grad d: Like do we know from the data wh which OK . But , since we are designing a a a an , compared to this , even bigger data collection effort , we will definitely take care to put it in there , grad d: grad b: in some shape , way , form over the other , grad d: grad b: to see whether we can , then , get sort of empirically validated data . grad b: from this , we can sometimes , you know an and that 's that but that isn't that what we need for a belief - net anyhow ? is sort of s sometimes when people want to just see it , they phrase it more like this ? But it doesn't exclude anybody from phrasing it totally differently , even if they still grad d: grad b: But then other factors may come into play that change the outcome of their belief - net . And I 'm sure even i the most , sort of , deliberate data collection experiment will never give you data that say , " Well , if it 's phrased like that , the intention is this . grad b: You know , because then , you grad d: u u , the only way you could get that is if you were to give th the x subjects a task . Right ? Where you have where your , current goal is to grad b: We Yeah ! That 's what we 're doing . grad d: grad b: But but we will still get the phrasing all over the place . So , I think you all know this , but we are going to actually use this little room grad d: professor c: and start recording subjects probably within a month or something . So , this is not any lo any of you guys ' worry , except that we may want to push that effort to get information we need . If it turns out that we need data of a certain sort , then the sort of data collection branch can be , asked to do that . And one of the reasons why we 're recording the meeting for these guys is cuz we want their help when we d we start doing , recording of subjects . No , you you will not have , and there it is , and , But you know , y y the , grad d: And I think the other concern that has come up before , too , is if it 's I don't know if this was collected what situation this data was collected in . Was it is it the one that you showed in your talk ? Like people grad b: No , no . So was this , like , someone actually mobile , like s using a device ? grad b: N no , no not i it was mobile but not not with a w a real wizard system . But , is it I guess I don't know The situation of of collecting th the data of , like Here you could imagine them being walking around the city . And then you have all sorts of other c situational context factors that would influence w how to interpret , like you said , the scope and things like that . grad d: If they 're doing it in a you know , " I 'm sitting here with a map and asking questions " , I I would imagine that the data would be really different . But It was never th th the goal of that data collection to to serve for sat for such a purpose . So that 's why for example the tasks were not differentiated by intentionality , grad d: I 'm sure we can produce some if we need it , that that will help us along those lines . So , to Finding out what , you know , situational con what the contextual factors of the situation really are , you know is an interesting s interesting thing . grad b: u u Sort of I 'm , at the moment , curious and I 'm I 'm s w want to approach it from the end where we can s sort of start with this toy system that we can play around with , grad d: grad b: so that we get a clearer notion of what input we need for that , grad d: And then we can start worrying about where to get this input , what what do we need , you know Ultimately once we are all experts in changing that parser , for example , maybe , there 's just a couple three things we need to do and then we get more whatever , part of speech and more construction - type - like stuff out of it . grad e: How exactly does the data collection work ? Do they have a map , and then you give them a scenario of some sort ? grad b: OK . You 're gonna be in here , and somebody And and you see , either th the three - D model , or , a QuickTime animation of standing u in a square in Heidelberg . So , just off a textbook , tourist guide , to familiarize , yourself with that sort of odd - sounding German street names , like Fischergasse and so forth . Part two is , you 're told that this huge new , wonderful computer system exists , that can y tell you everything you want to know , and it understands you completely . And so you 're gonna pick up that phone , dial a number , and you get a certain amount of tasks that you have to solve . First you have to know find out how to get to that place , maybe with the intention of buying stamps in there . Maybe So , the next task is to get to a certain place and take a picture for your grandchild . It crashes , And grad d: a At the third ? Right then ? grad b: After the third task . And then , a human operator comes on , and and exp apologizes that the system has crashed , but , you know , urges you to continue , you know ? now with a human operator . And so , you have basically the same tasks again , just with different objects , and you go through it again , and that was it . Oh , and one one little bit w And , the computer you are you are being told the computer system knows exactly where you are , via GPS . And so you have to do some s tell the person sort of where you are , depending on what you see there . , this is a a a a a bit that I d I don't think we Did we discuss that bit ? , I just sort of squeezed that in now . grad d: So , in the display you can Oh , you said that you cou you might have a display that shows , like , the grad b: Yeah . grad d: And so , as you grad b: n grad d: Oh , two - D . grad d: So as you move through it that 's - they just track it on the for themselves grad b: Yeah . So grad b: Yeah ? that would be an an an enormous technical effort , unless we would We can show it walks to , you know . grad b: And you see the label of the name So we get those names , pronunciation stuff , and so forth , and we can change that . So your tasks don't require you to , yo you 're told So when your task is , I don't know , " Go buy stamps " or something like that ? So , do you have to respond ? or does your , what are you ste what are you supposed to be telling the system ? Like , w what you 're doing now ? or grad b: Well , we 'll see what people do . grad d: There 's no OK , so it 's just like , " Let 's figure out what they would say under the circumstances " . grad b: in both cases it 's gonna be a human , in the computer , and in the operator case . grad b: And we will re there will be some dialogue , you know ? So , you first have to do this , and that , grad d: Yep . But , maybe the maybe what you 're suggesting Is what you 're suggesting that it might be too poor , the data , if we sort of limit it to this ping pong one t , task results in a question and then there 's an answer and that 's the end of the task ? You wanna m have it more more steps , sort of ? grad d: Yeah , I I don't know how much direction is given to the subject about what their interaction , th they 're unfamiliar w with interacting with the system . , we we have to have this discussion of th the experiment , and the data collection , and all that sorta stuff grad d: - huh . Sh - Is sh grad d: She started taking the class last year and then didn't , you know , didn't continue . So , anyway , she 's looking for some more part time work w while she 's waiting actually for graduate school . So we may have someone , to do this , and she 's got you know , some background in in all this stuff . That 's So , Nancy , we 'll have an At some point we 'll have another discussion on exactly wha t t you know , how that 's gonna go . professor c: And , Jane , but also , Liz have offered to help us do this , data collection and design and stuff . professor c: So , when we get to that we 'll have some people doing it that know what they 're doing . I guess the reason I was asking about the sort of the de the details of this kind of thing is that , it 's one thing to collect data for , I don't know , speech recognition or various other tasks that have pretty c clear correct answers , but with intention , obviously , as you point out , there 's a lot of di other factors and I 'm not really sure , how how e the question of how to make it a t appropriate toy version of that , it 's ju it 's just hard . So , obviously it 's a grad e: Yeah , actually I guess that was my question . Is the intention implicit in the scenario that 's given ? Like , do the grad d: It is , if they have these tasks that they 're supposed to grad e: Yeah , I just wasn't sure to what level of detail the task was . professor c: the The problem that I was tr gonna try to focus on today was , let 's suppose by magic you could collect dialogues in which , one way or the other , you were able to , figure out both the intention , and set the context , and know what language was used . The issue is , can we find a way to , basically , featurize it so that we get some discrete number of features so that , when we know the values to all those features , or as many as possible , we can w come up with the best estimate of which of the , in this case three little intentions , are most likely . grad d: w What are the t three intentions ? Is it to go there , to see it , and grad b: To come as close as possible to it . professor c: Th - the terminology we 're using is to grad d: Yeah , it 's @ @ . " Take a picture of it " you you might well want to be a really rather different place than entering it . professor c: And , for an object that 's at all big , sort of getting to the nearest part of it , could be quite different than either of those . professor c: Just sort of grad d: OK , so now I understand the referent of Tango mode . grad b: S To " Waltz " it ? grad d: Yeah , like , how close are you gonna be ? professor c: Well . So grad f: All these So , like , the question is how what features can like , do you wanna try to extract from , say , the parse or whatever ? professor c: Right . grad f: Like , the presence of a word or the presence of a certain , stem , or certain construction or whatever . Is there a construction , or the kind of object , or w , anything else that 's in the si It 's either in the in the s the discourse itself or in the context . So if it turns out that , whatever it is , you want to know whether the person 's , a tourist or not , OK ? that becomes a feature . But fo for the current problem , it would just be , " OK , if you can be sure that it 's a tourist , versus a businessman , versus a native , " or something , that would give you a lot of discriminatory power and then just have a little section in your belief - net that said , " pppt ! " Though sin f in the short run , you 'd set them , grad f: professor c: and see ho how it worked , and then in the longer run , you would figure out how you could derive them . So , how should What 's the , plan ? Like , how should we go about figuring out these professor c: OK . So , first of all is , do e either of you guys , you got a favorite belief - net that you 've , you know , played with ? JavaBayes or something ? grad f: Oh . OK ? So y so one of th one of the things we wanna do is actually , pick a package , doesn't matter which one , presumably one that 's got good interactive abilities , cuz a lot of what we 're gonna be d You know , we don't need the one that 'll solve massive , belief - nets quickly . Because i that 's A lot of what it 's gonna be , is , playing with this . So that if if we have all these cases OK ? So we make up cases that have these features , OK , and then you 'd like to be able to say , " OK , here 's a bunch of cases " There 're even ones tha that you can do learning OK ? So you have all their cases and and their results and you have a algorithms to go through and run around trying to set the the probabilities for you . , my guess is we aren't gonna have enough data that 's good enough to make the these data fitting ones worth it , but I don't know . OK , and you wanna it s You know , the standard things you want it stable , you want it yeah , @ @ . And , as soon as we have one , we can start trying to , make a first cut at what 's going on . OK ? We we have a we know what the outcomes are gonna be , and we have some some data that 's loose , we can use our own intuition , and see how hard it is , and , importantly , what intermediate nodes we think we need . So it if it turns out that just , thinking about the problem , you come up with things you really need to You know , this is the kind of thing that is , you know , an intermediate little piece in your belief - net . grad b: And it and it may serve as a platform for a person , maybe me , or whoever , who is interested in doing some linguistic analysis . , w we have the For - FrameNet group here , and we can see what they have found out about those concepts already , that are contained in the data , you know , to come up with a nice little set of features and , maybe even means of s , extracting them . And and that altogether could also be , become a nice paper that 's going to be published somewhere , if we sit down and write it . And When you said JavaBayes belief - net you were talking about ones that run on coffee ? or that are in the program language Java ? professor c: No , th It turns out that there is a , The new end of Java libraries . I have no idea whether that 's The obvious advantage of that is that you can then , relatively easily , get all the other Java packages for GUIs or whatever else you might want to do . professor c: So that i that 's I think why a lot of people doing research use that . But it may not be I have no idea whether that 's the best choice an and there 're plenty of people around , students in the department who , you know , live and breathe Bayes - nets . So , grad d: There 's the m tool kit that , Kevin Murphy has developed , professor c: Right . I don't know I don't know whether you guys have met Kevin yet or not , grad b: grad b: But i But since we all probably are pretty sure that , the professor c: Yeah . And the ontology that , the student is is constructing for me back in in EML is in OIL and that 's also in XML . And so that 's where a lot of knowledge about bakeries , about hotels , about castles and stuff is gonna come from . grad b: so , if it has that IO capability and if it 's a Java package , it will definitely be able We can couple . grad b: Who isn't , nuh ? professor c: So , in terms of of interchanging in and out of any module we build , It 'll be XML . And if you 're going off to queries to the ontology , for example , you 'll have to deal with its interface . But that 's that 's fine an and , all of these things have been built with much bigger projects than this in mind . It 's kind of blackboards and multi - wave blackboards and ways of interchanging and registering your a And so forth . if we can get the core of the thing to work , in a way that we 're comfortable with , then we ca we can get in and out of it with , XML , little descriptors . Yeah , I like , for example , the what you said about the getting input from from just files about where you h where you have the data , have specified the features and so forth . professor c: I don't I don't see grad b: That 's , of course , easy also to do with , you know , XML . grad b: So r professor c: That that , you know , feature value XML format is probably as good a way as any . So it 's als Yeah , I guess it 's also worth , while you 're poking around , poke around for XML packages that , do things you 'd like . grad f: Doesn't does SmartKom system have such packages ? grad b: Yeah . It 's also professor c: And the question is , d you c you you 'll have to l We 'll have to l That should be ay We should be able to look at that grad b: No , u u y the What I What sort of came to my mind i is was the notion of an idea that if if there are l nets that can actually lear try to set their own , probability factors based on on on on input professor c: Yeah . grad b: which is in file format , if we , get really w wild on this , we may actually want to use some some corpora that other people made and , for example , if if they are in in MATE , then we get X M L documents with discourse annotations , t you know , t from the discourse act down to the phonetic level . grad b: Michael has a project where you know , recognizing discourse acts and he does it all in MATE , and so they 're actually annotating data and data and data . So if we w if we think it 's worth it one of these days , not not with this first prototype but maybe with a second , and we have the possibility of of taking input that 's generated elsewhere and learn from that , that 'd be nice . professor c: It 'd be nice , but but I I I do I don't wanna count on it . , you can't you can't run your project based on the speculation that that the data will come , grad b: No , no , just for professor c: and you don't have to actually design the nets . So in terms of of the , the what the SmartKom gives us for M - three - L packages , it could be that they 're fine , or it could be eeh . professor c: it 's , It doesn't control what you do in you know , internally . grad b: grad e: What 's the time frame for this ? grad b: Two days ? Two , three days ? professor c: Huh ? Yeah bu w I 'd like that this y yeah , this week , to ha to n to have y guys , you know , pick the y you know , belief - net package grad b: No . professor c: and tell us what it is , and give us a pointer so we can play with it or something . professor c: And , then as soon as we have it , I think we should start trying to populate it for this problem . Make a first cut at , you know , what 's going on , and probably the ea easiest way to do that is some on - line way . , you can f figure out whether you wanna make it a web site or You know , how grad b: I I I , OK , I t Yeah . grad b: But , maybe it might be interesting if if the two of you can agree on who 's gonna be the speaker next Monday , to tell us something about the net you picked , and what it does , and how it does that . grad b: So that will be sort of the assignment for next week , is to to for slides and whatever net you picked and what it can do and and how far you 've gotten . Pppt ! professor c: Well , I 'd like to also , though , ha have a first cut at what the belief - net looks like . OK ? So , you know , here a here are grad e: So we 're supposed to @ @ about features and whatnot , professor c: Right . professor c: And , as I said , what I 'd like to do is , what would be really great is you bring it in If if if we could , in the meeting , say , you know , " Here 's the package , here 's the current one we have , " , you know , " What other ideas do you have ? " and then we can think about this idea of making up the data file . Of , you know , get a t a p tentative format for it , let 's say XML , that says , l you know , " These are the various scenarios we 've experienced . " We can just add to that and there 'll be this this file of them and when you think you 've got a better belief - net , You just run it against this , this data file . grad e: And what 's the relation to this with Changing the table so that the system works in English ? grad b: OK . I 've downloaded them both , and I started to unpack the Linux one , the NT one worked fine . and I started unta pack the Linux one , it told me that I can't really unpack it because it contains a future date . Now , Then it will be my job to get this whole thing running both on Swede and on this machine . And then Hopefully that hoping that my urgent message will now come through to Ralph and Tilman that it will send some more documentation along , we I control p Maybe that 's what I will do next Monday is show the state and show the system and show that . , what one hopes is that when we understand how the analyzer works , we can both worry about converting it to English and worry about how it could ex extract the parameters we need for the belief - net . So we 're gonna do belief - nets this week , and then professor c: Oh , yeah . n None of this is i n Neither of these projects has got a real tight time - line , in the sense that over the next month there 's a there 's a deliverable . If if you know , if we don't get any information for these guys f for several weeks then we aren't gonna sit around , you know , wasting time , trying to do the problem or guess what they You know , just pppt ! go on and do other things . grad b: Yeah , but but the This point is really I think very , very valid that ultimately we hope that that both will merge into a harmonious and , wonderful , state where we can not only do the bare necessities , IE , changing the table so it does exactly in English what it does in German , but also that we can sort of have the system where we can say , " OK , this is what it usually does , and now we add this little thing to it " , you know ? whatever , Johno 's and Bhaskara 's great belief - net , and we plug it in , and then for these certain tasks , and we know that navigational tasks are gonna be a core domain of the new system , it all all of a sudden it does much better . Nuh ? Because it can produce better answers , tell the person , as I s showed you on this map , n you know , produce either you know , a red line that goes to the Vista point or a red line that goes to the Tango point or red line that goes to the door , which would be great . So not only can you show that you know something sensible but ultimately , if you produce a system like this , it takes the person where it wants to go . So this was actually an actual problem that we encountered , which nobody have has because car navigation systems don't really care . grad b: If you go d If you wanna drive to the SAP in Waldorf , I 'm sure the same is true of Microsoft , it takes you to the the address , whatever , street number blah - blah - blah , you are miles away from the entrance . professor c: Probably not then , cuz y you probably can't drop the mail there anyway . So , you two , who 'll be working on this , li are are you gl will you be doing Well , are you supposed to just do it by thinking about the situation ? Can you use the sample data ? professor c: Of course they use the sample data . grad d: Is it like Yeah , ho is there more than Is there a lot s of sample data that is beyond what you what you have there ? grad b: There there 's more than I showed , but , I think this is sort of , in part my job to look at that and and to see whether there are features in there that can be extracted , grad d: Yeah . grad b: and to come up with some features that are not you know , empirically based on on a real experiment or on on on reality grad d: Right . grad b: but sort of on your intuition of you know , " Aha ! This is maybe a sign for that , grad d: We can end the meeting and call Adam , and then we wanna s look at some filthy pictures of Heidelberg . professor c: is that OK ? grad b: And that 's why , when it was hit by , a cannon ball , it exploded . I first thought it had something to do with the material that it w that 's why I asked

The experiment will involve subjects being given texts about a city to familiarize themselves with foreign terms. They will then use a computer navigation system to navigate the city and complete tasks. However, the computer system will intentionally crash, leaving the subjects without GPS. A human operator will assist them, and the subjects will have to provide visual information to determine their location. Creating movies of walking was initially seen as requiring significant technical effort, but it was later considered worthwhile. The goal of the experiment is to observe how people communicate in this scenario. There was a discussion about recording the navigation system videos from a first-person perspective, and the system's ambition was clarified to be understanding people's reactions and conversations. Potential candidates for the human operator and wizard roles were also mentioned.

What were the opinions of B and D regarding the experimental setup of the computer navigation system?

Actually , I think he he redirected it to everybody also so the PDA mikes have a big bunch of energy at at five hertz where this came up was that I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . I I have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , in fact it 's not , of of the effects of room reverberation . And then we had this other discussion about whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? But Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: Right . But then I had some other thing discussions with him phd b: For the P D professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , many other problems could ha happen . professor a: A simple thing to do is he he he has a I forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . professor a: The other thing that I don't know the answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is if it 's if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program , which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP then there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: What 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: Oh . I don't know I wrote this a while ago phd b: Is it like twenty ? professor a: Something like that . I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . So , it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . I don't know in the in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: . We we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for . He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so we don't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . And then again if it 's depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . It 's just not a great example because not only isn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . professor a: So , it doesn't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of five hertz noise , so . So it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate . So , but , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man . So I think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . One of the things I was , I was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is O K , but the thing is the eyes and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it doesn't seem like it 's that bad because there 's many features that are still preserved . So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . Another , I was thinking of was taking some spectral slices , like like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the , the reverberation does make it does change that . grad c: W w what d what do you mean ? professor a: Well , all the recognizers look at frames . professor a: So it 's , yeah , at one point in time or twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . And if you look at phd b: You could just you could just throw up , you know , the some MFCC feature vectors . You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . Well , that 's why I saying either Well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: I 'm just kidding . professor a: but but I think the thing is you wanna phd b: I don't mean a graph . Yeah , at first I had a remark why I am wondering why the PDA is always so far . Since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together the clean low - pass downsampling , upsampling , the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , and also the delay issue so that We considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . professor a: But it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: It 's not professor a: right ? phd f: Yeah . It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but I think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . For Italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . I don't I don't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: - huh . professor a: Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: Y professor a: Right . professor a: So then if you take your changes phd f: It 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but from this se seventy - eight percent recognition rate system , I could change the transition probabilities for the the first and it will end up to eighty - nine also . phd f: By using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the HTK script . phd b: th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: Yeah . From point phd f: Even tenth of a percent ? phd b: I I 'm sorry phd f: Well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from You change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: Oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: . phd b: alright ? so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . phd b: And it 's I think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about it just being very phd f: phd b: and I think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very phd f: Mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it I guess . professor a: Well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: I think you 're not allowed to Yeah . But changing it to point five I think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . phd f: Yeah , but even if you use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: Yeah . We only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , . phd b: right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice phd f: Yeah . I think the reason is , yeah , I not I it was in my mail I think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . Well , in for the mismatched case everything is using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and Well . phd b: I did notice something phd f: So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: Somebody , I think it was Morgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . phd b: And there are almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . phd b: I did one quick experiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just f for most of the For for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and it it it didn't have a r any significant effect at the medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . And I think also just seeing what we saw in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different . phd b: And so in the case where it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . I think you know if we make a better silence model I think that will help a lot too for a lot of these cases so but one one thing I I wanted to check out before I increased the number of mixtures per state was in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . Seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . phd b: And so you know in trying to run these experiments I notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . And so one of the things I did was I compiled HTK for the Linux machines professor a: phd b: cuz we have this one from IBM that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: Right . phd b: and so now I 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . And if I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . And if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . But if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I increased the number of Gaussians . professor a: But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: Yeah . But actually actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . Which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is Well I well what what What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: So it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: No , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: Yeah but what is that you can have a huge improvement on the H HMK 's , like five percent absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement relative to the the baseline is small professor a: So they do improvement in terms of accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: . improvement ? professor a: So phd f: No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: OK . professor a: So if you have ten percent error and you get five percent absolute improvement then that 's fifty percent . So what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . Sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: Yeah . That 's why I 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate and and not not at at accuracies . phd b: it 's not it 's not that different , right ? , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: Yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . professor a: If you had ninety percent correct and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . professor a: So just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . professor a: What 's a little bit ? Like phd f: Like , it 's difficult to say because again I 'm not sure I have the phd b: Hey Morgan ? Do you remember that Signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? Is that still valid ? I I 've been using that . I just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: Yeah , I 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he he was a little more rigorous , as I recall . s phd f: well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point O four . For Finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . And for Spanish we are we were at ninety - five point O five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: And is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . Because nnn , well we don't have complete result , but the filter So the filter with the shorter delay hurts on Italian well - matched , which And , yeah . And the other things , like downsampling , upsampling , don't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: phd f: I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but I don't know . There is first this thing , and then the yeah , I computed the like , the confidence level on the different test sets . professor a: But OK , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: So . Do the does the new filter make things better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: Yeah . OK , so I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then you 're not quite sure what to make of it . But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , I would say . So at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . What I was asking , though , is are what 's what 's the level of communication with the O G I gang now , about this and phd f: Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . We are working on our side on other things like also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , another spectral substraction . It 's going professor a: Is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: Yeah . As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and But we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . Sounds like a great idea but but I think that that he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline . Anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ? phd f: S professor a: Or , is that what is that phd f: Yeah we are We are trying to to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits , professor a: Right . phd f: and , well , some people from OGI are working on a paper for this , but there is also the special session about th Aurora which is which has an extended deadline . professor a: So the deadline When 's the deadline ? When 's the deadline ? phd f: ? I think it 's the thirteenth of May . So , I I think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue but but I think it 's probably , on s from what Stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: Well I could at least Well , I 'm going to be out next week but I could try to look into like this CVS over the web . That seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: phd b: so maybe if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people don't it won't interfere with their regular work , then maybe that would be good . And if you 're interested in using CVS , I 've set it up here , phd b: Oh great . grad c: j phd b: I used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions . Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz the , actually the the It made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: Maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: No , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but you can't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . professor a: They hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: - huh . professor a: but that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . But for the the visual , just , you know , I 'd like to have , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: Yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: I noticed that in the pictures . phd b: I thought " hey , you know th " I My initial thought was " this is not too bad ! " professor a: Right . But you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see " well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . professor a: So you could that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah . The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . It looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: Right . Since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have reduced high frequencies . But the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and we want to show that , in some obvious way . " but I I just After after they were put in there I didn't really look at them anymore , cuz I just they were different . So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: The other thing that we had in there that I didn't like was that the most obvious characteristic of the difference when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the cuts that we have there actually don't correspond to the full wave form . It 's just the first I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . But it it 's it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . So we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , I think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . phd f: So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the Wall process , which contains LDA on - line normalization . phd f: And so we started to look at at things like this , which is , well , it 's Yeah . And the sentence contain only one word , which is " Due " And it can't clearly be seen . phd f: Where is the word ? phd b: This is this is , grad e: . phd f: This is a plot of C - zero , when we don't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . phd f: then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . phd f: and And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: phd b: Can I ask what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ? professor a: Normalizes the variance . phd f: So it phd b: No , I understand that , phd f: You you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd f: phd b: No , I understand what it is , but , what does it what 's what is phd f: Yeah but . professor a: Well , because everything If you have a system based on Gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . professor a: So if there 's an overall reason You know , it 's like if you were doing image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , there was a lot of light and and in some , there was low light , phd b: professor a: And the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? So what if one set of pictures was taken so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night ten times , another time it went thr i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: Oh , OK . I guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . So if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the So every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . professor a: And so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: I see . So would the major effect is that you 're gonna get is by normalizing the means , professor a: That 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help First - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: And it may help to do the variance . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between E and B phd b: OK . professor a: if it just so happens that the E 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: professor a: or the variation in it was larger , than with the B 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: So the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . And it and this professor a: i is if If you have a good voice activity detector , isn't isn't it gonna pull that out ? phd f: Yeah . Well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what we 've already observed . phd b: I don't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . What I notice is that , while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . phd f: But the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . phd b: But for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: And Yeah , but here phd b: You 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: Yeah . For I th I think that it perhaps it shows that the parameters that the voice activity detector should use have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . phd f: Well , y professor a: So you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . You also could do it by spect spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: Yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on Italian HM and with these two kinds of parameters . phd b: Where 's th phd f: But the fact is that the voice activity detector doesn't work on channel one . phd b: Where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? Is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: ? professor a: Spectral subtraction , I guess . Is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: It 's applied the on , yeah , something like this , phd b: Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one . professor a: Can I phd f: So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD . Can I ask a , a sort of top - level question , which is " if if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? " phd f: phd f: It 's just Well it 's another They are trying to u to use the the Ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . When we do spectral subtraction , actually , I think that this is the the two last figures . phd b: Speech is more what ? phd f: Well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . phd f: Well , if you compare the first figure to this one Actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers you clearly see that the difference between the C - zero of the speech and C - zero of the noise portion is larger . but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of C - zero . And what they did at OGI is just they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think Yeah . So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but I think with different different system and professor a: Right . , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th one way or the other phd f: professor a: but I 'm I 'm just wondering if on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we won't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd b: if you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . I don't know if that 's true or not , but I could see how phd f: Mmm . , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which isn't quite what you 'd like it to be . And then weren't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? That was Was it There was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: Yeah . And they are t I think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call TRAP or generalized TRAP . Do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next phd f: It 's in June . Yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about the VAD V A Ds performing quite differently ? That that So . This there was this experiment of " what if we just take the baseline ? " phd f: Mmm . professor a: set of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different V A And it looks like the the French VAD is actually better significantly better . If the use the small VAD I th I think it 's on I think it 's easy to do better because it doesn't work at all . He Actually , I think that he say with the good VAD of from OGI and with the Alcatel VAD . phd f: Yeah but I it 's I think you were talking about the other mail that used VAD on the reference features . professor a: it was enough better that that it would account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: And perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the VAD . professor a: H Hynek will be back in town the week after next , back back in the country . phd d: Also is Stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about voiced - unvoiced phd f: phd f: Yeah , my feeling is that actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: Right . phd f: Yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . We don't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but Cuz I have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some It 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . phd f: there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: Right . When you have noise there is no if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: but but phd b: Isn't there some other phd f: S phd b: d phd f: So I think that it it would be good Yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: I was just gonna say isn't there aren't aren't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , by looking at , you know , I guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: Well , I think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: Mmm . phd b: w ah you know , even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: Mmm . phd f: yeah , so yeah , I think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . We were thinking about like using ideas from from Larry Saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the FFT and professor a: U phd f: Larry Saul could be an idea . We were are thinking about just kind of taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on making use of voicing information to help in reducing the noise . phd f: Yeah ? professor a: So what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . professor a: And you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . But the thing is that you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . professor a: And that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: Yeah . It was kind of like RASTA was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: Mmm . We 've actually back when Chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced classification using a bunch of these , phd f: But professor a: and and works OK . professor a: But the thing is that you can't given the constraints of this task , we can't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we can't you know affect the the distributions or anything . phd b: Didn't the head dude send around that message ? Yeah , I think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that I I 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people shouldn't put their own in or something . professor a: I guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do KLT 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent So , if it 's if it 's not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , looking at harmonicity or something like that , if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: professor a: take the log of that or pre pre pre - nonlinearity , phd f: Yeah . i if professor a: and do the KLT on the on on that , phd f: Yeah . And then that would be phd f: Yeah , well , I was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah So you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: R Right . If you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: professor a: so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and then you only use for this one distinction . professor a: And and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got the probability of the finer categories on the other side . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: Because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: Yeah . phd f: Well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to to go together very well . I professor a: Or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't doesn't hurt too much or something . professor a: But it but , anyway I think I was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: Yeah . professor a: cuz I was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing In fact if you get if you go into a harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and phd f: I know that when have people have done sort of the obvious thing of taking your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or that it hasn't my impression it hasn't particularly helped . professor a: But I think that 's that 's a question for this you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . Was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: And and it may not have been noisy conditions . I I don't remember the example but it was it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually phd f: But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT professor a: - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d , this voicing bit would help in in terms of frame classification . professor a: Why don't you why don't you just do it with Aurora ? phd f: Mmm . professor a: Just any i in in each in each frame phd f: Yeah , but but B but we cannot do the cheating , this cheating thing . Cuz we don't have Well , for Italian perhaps we have , but we don't have this labeling for Aurora . professor a: But you could you can you can align so that It 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: But the problem is that their models are all word level models . phd b: You So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . grad e: S But we could use the the noisy version that TIMIT , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the TI - digits portion of Aurora . phd f: Well , I guess I guess we can we can say that it will help , but I don't know . If this voicing bit doesn't help , I think we don't have to to work more about this because professor a: . professor a: and different ta it was probably Resource Management or something , I think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as I recall . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: It also professor a: one oh phd b: Yeah , the though I think there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . Well back twenty years ago when I did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . professor a: And we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . professor a: And then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . professor a: So I would I would believe that it was quite likely that looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: And the all the the SpeechCorders ? what 's the idea behind ? Cuz they they have to Oh , they don't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: The modern ones don't do a a simple switch . phd f: They just work on the code book professor a: They work on the code book excitation . They try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . One of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system . Actually I I s we didn't I guess I wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought I had was looking at the language model that 's used in the HTK recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which That model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: Right . I thought " well I 'm gonna just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . phd b: And the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the Aurora training data . So it 's either one , four , five , six , up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . So I I just for the heck of it , I made a little grammar which , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . So there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: phd b: So it was you know , I I didn't have any weights of these paths or I didn't have anything like that . phd b: And I played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but I couldn't go anywhere . I thought " well if I only allow " Yeah , I guess I should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . phd b: So to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things <doc-sep>I 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , " Well , what do you think about this ? " You wanna ? phd d: Yeah . phd f: Should we take turns ? You want me to run it today ? professor b: Yeah . Let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . , I guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . phd f: This is what what do you , what 's in the paper there ? phd c: So it 's the paper that describe basically the , system that were proposed for the Aurora . phd f: The one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: Right , yeah . phd f: Where where 's it gonna be this year ? phd c: It 's , Aalborg in Denmark . Then , whhh well , I 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . , second thing is , the training of , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . , and so I have two recursions which are controlled by the , probability of the voice activity detector . professor b: So do you maybe make errors in different places ? Different kinds of errors ? phd c: I didn't look , more closely . Well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for C - zero and C - one than for the other coefficients . And Yeah , it the C - one is There are strange strange thing happening with C - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . phd c: So when you look at the trajectory of C - one , it 's has a strange shape and I was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange C - ze C - one shape , which can like , yo you can have , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd c: So which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we don't frame ev , drop everything , but , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and Mmm . , a third thing is , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , I try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , I keep it to this threshold to still , adapt , the mean when if the utterance is , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: It seems pretty phd f: Wasn't there some experiment you were gonna try where you did something differently for each , I don't know whether it was each mel band or each , FFT bin or someth There was something you were gonna , some parameter you were gonna vary depending on the frequency . I don't know if that was phd c: I guess it was I don't know . u Maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , tunings for the different MFCC 's . And then it was something about , some and then somebody said " yeah , it does seem like , you know , C - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one " or , s I can't remember exactly what it was now . S , it 's very important to normalize C - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . And we I think , we kind of know that normalizing C - one doesn't help with the current scheme . In my idea , I I was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . But maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: I I really would like to suggest looking , a little bit at the kinds of errors . I know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: professor b: but but , just seeing that each of these things didn't make things better may not be enough . It may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: Yeah . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . And if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . I 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , I think I Yeah . Well , what I did is t is to take , to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold Well , this for each mel band . Then put a threshold that 's fifteen DB below well , a couple of DB below this maximum , professor b: phd c: So I was adding a white noise energy , that 's fifteen DB below the maximum energy of the utterance . When we look at at the , MFCC that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance , so a clean and , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . And the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen DB just fifteen DB below the maximum energy . phd c: And at least phd f: So why does that m smooth things out ? I don't I don't understand that . Right ? phd c: It 's I think , it 's whitening This the portion that are more silent , professor b: Cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: Huh . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech don't get much affected anyway by the other noise . And and professor b: So , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you don't do b do badly . The reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . professor b: phd f: So would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: professor b: Well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: I think it 's I think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: It 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: phd c: Well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the Aurora database . phd c: If if you compare th the two shut channels of SpeechDat - Car during speech portion , it 's n n n the MFCC are not very different . And , professor b: Yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . So , but in this case I I really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: Well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: first place it 's fifteen DB , down across the utterance . phd f: So what was the what was the threshold part of it ? Was the threshold , how far down ? professor b: Yeah . How does it go ? If it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? Or if it 's below s phd c: I systematically add the noise , but the , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . professor b: So then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . And I don't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or professor b: Or or not constant but but , varying over time in fact is another way to go . professor b: Were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: Yeah . A third thing is that , I play a little bit with the , finding what was different between , And there were a couple of differences , like the LDA filters were not the same . , so when we put s some noise compensation the , LDA filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . , if we use the the old LDA filter , the LDA filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . But and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . So now the results are more similar , and I don't I will not , I think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of MFCC that we keep and other small things that we can I think optimize later on anyway . But on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . Right ? So if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , Which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to Aurora ? Are they they both ? Well , phd c: I think Yeah . I think th th , the new system that I tested is , I guess , closer because it doesn't have it have less of of France Telecom stuff , phd d: You mean the phd c: I phd d: The whatever you , tested with recently . phd d: Yeah ? professor b: Well , no , I I 'm I Yeah , you 're trying to add in France Telecom . Right ? Or phd d: The number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: Cep phd c: So , I think we 'd wanna standardize there , wouldn't we ? phd c: Yeah , yeah . phd c: I think we were gonna work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . So , we haven't w we have been always using , fifteen coefficients , phd c: Yeah . Then professor b: I think as long as you guys agree on it , it doesn't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: I think we have a maximum of sixty , features that we 're allowed . Ma - maybe we can , at least , I 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once I have this noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd d: Never tested it with the compensation , but without , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: Yeah . phd d: You know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than C - zero . phd d: But not for , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy you get a better performance with log energy . phd d: Well , maybe once we have this noise compensation , I don't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for C - zero or log energy . phd f: So do you have more , Stephane , or ? phd c: that 's it , I think . phd f: How about you , Barry ? grad a: still working on my my quals preparation stuff . , so I 'm I 'm thinking about , starting some , cheating experiments to , determine the , the relative effectiveness of , some intermediate categories that I want to classify . So , for example , if I know where voicing occurs and everything , I would do a phone , phone recognition experiment , somehow putting in the the , the perfect knowledge that I have about voicing . So , in particular I was thinking , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those LNA files , and , setting to zero those probabilities that , that these phones are not voicing . So say , like , I know this particular segment is voicing , I would say , go into the corresponding LNA file and zonk out the the posteriors for , those phonemes that , are not voiced , phd f: And so this would be a useful thing , to know in terms of , like , which which , which of these categories are are good for , speech recognition . grad a: So , that 's I hope to get those , those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in July . phd f: So do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: Yeah . I I I was thinking OK , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , phones . phd f: wh are you gonna do digits grad a: Yeah , m , well , I 'm gonna f work with TIMIT phd f: or ? With TIMIT . So where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: Oh . So maybe , Chronos phd f: An - and you 're gonna the you 're gonna do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or Phone recognition . And , another thing would be to extend this to , digits or something where I can look at whole words . grad a: And I would be able to see , not just , like , phoneme events , but , inter - phoneme events . So , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: phd f: Let 's see , I haven't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . Well , in my lunch talk last week I I said I 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l , long - term mean subtraction approach . And also I 've been talking to , Andreas and Thilo about the , SmartKom language model and about coming up with a good model for , far mike use of the SmartKom system . So I 'm gonna be working on , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the SmartKom system , . And , one of the experiments we 're gonna do is , we 're gonna , train the a Broadcast News net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , adapt it on some other data . , An - Andreas wants to use , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the SmartKom system interaction is not gonna be exactly conversational . grad g: S so actually I was wondering , how long does it take to train that Broadcast News net ? professor b: The big one takes a while . professor b: So but , you know , you can get I don't know if you even want to run the big one , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . So , you can scale it down by I 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large Broadcast News test set training set . professor b: i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: OK . Also , I guess we had we 've had these , little di discussions I guess you ha haven't had a chance to work with it too much about about , m other ways of taking care of the phase . So , I I guess that was something I could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , and not not , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . But it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . But grad g: And , actually , regarding the phase normalization So I did two experiments , and one is So , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . And so I thought at first , that , what I should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . , but I actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in Matlab than I did not unwrapping at all . So I 'm I 'm still hopeful that that , we we don't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . But , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , a couple potential ways to do it . So you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum , actually divide it out , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . And , actually I was talking to Dick Karp about it a little bit , and and and , since I got thinking about it , and and , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , I think , we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but I think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the Taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . And and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , very different from one It should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? Well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: OK . But that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of K times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of K plus log of the complex number . How about you , Sunil ? phd d: So , I 've been , implementing this , Wiener filtering for this Aurora task . And then I ran the whole recognition experiment with Italian and I got , like , worse results than not using it . And then it looks like I have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . I was looking at the spectrograms that I got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . Like , when I professor b: I I missed the v I 'm sorry , I was I was distracted . phd d: And it it it gave , like I just got the signal out and it it was OK . So , I plugged it in somewhere and then , it 's like I had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . So , it was real , I thought it was all fine and then I ran it , and I got something worse than not using it . So , I was like I 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: - huh . And , the other thing , was , Well , Hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then I was t talking wi professor b: Right . So I was actually that day I was thinking about d doing something about the Wiener filtering , and then Carlos matter of stuff . And then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what Carlos used for his , thesis and then that was something which came up . And then , So , I 'm actually , thinking of using that also in this , W Wiener filtering because that is a m modified Wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the Wiener filter . So instead of designing our own new Wiener filters , I may just use one of those Carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , something like the smoothing the Wiener filter professor b: phd d: but @ @ S so , I don't know , I was h I 'm I 'm I 'm , like that so that is the next thing . Once this I once I sort this pro , problem out maybe I 'll just go into that also . So , I , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen , s values and eigenvectors . So just I just @ @ some small block of things which I needed to put together for the subspace approach . phd f: What what is VTS again ? phd d: New phd e: Eh , Vectorial Taylor Series . I think I ask you that every single meeting , don't I ? phd e: What ? phd f: I ask you that question every meeting . phd e: If Well professor b: It 's good to have some , cases of the same utterance at different different times . And we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without VTS . So that @ @ given that you 're using the VAD also , the effect of the VTS is not so far phd e: Is not . professor b: Do you How much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? Or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: Pfft . I don't know because phd c: Are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: Hhh , phd c: or ? Or i ? phd e: I do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . And , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: Maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different They all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: Mmm . , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: professor b: first place , even if ultimately we wouldn't be given the boundaries , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . , how much is the poor you know , relatively , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: Mmm . So maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . Well , we have If this if this is the noise signal , in the log domain , we have something like this . And the idea of these methods is to n given a , professor b: phd e: How do you say ? I will read because it 's better for my English . I i given is the estimate of the PDF of the noise signal when we have a , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . So , the top equation is is is phd e: No , this in the it 's this is the log domain . professor b: Which is which is the log domain ? phd e: Is the T is egual is equal to , log of professor b: And but Y is what ? Y of the spectrum phd e: this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . phd c: p s this professor b: No , is that power spectrum ? Is it ? phd c: Yeah . And professor b: So that 's phd e: This is the noisy Yeah , it 's professor b: OK . professor b: OK , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on T , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o Yeah . phd e: Yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: But , n Well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: X times one plus , N , N N N minus X ? phd e: The Yeah . professor b: And then , So that 's log of X plus log of one plus , phd e: And the noise signal . phd e: Well , if we apply the log , we have E is n phd c: Mmm . phd d: and phd e: log E is equal , oh , to log of X plus N . phd e: And , well , phd d: And , log of phd e: we can say that E is equal to log of , exponential of X plus exponential of N . phd d: Well , if E restricts It is y phd e: Well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of X omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . , it 's just if X and N are variables Right ? phd d: What is , ? professor b: The the the log of X plus N is not the same as the log of E to the X plus E to the N . But this i Well , I don't Well , professor b: Maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but I I don't know . Well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , phd d: The log the Taylor series expansion for log one plus N by X is professor b: OK . phd c: Is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is X professor b: I i phd d: Yeah , the first one . If if you take log X into log one plus N by X , and then expand the log one plus N by X into Taylor series phd c: Yeah . phd e: Now , this is the and then phd c: Yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: Not exactly . Well , we have pfft , em Well , we can put that X is equal I is equal to log of , mmm professor b: That doesn't follow . Because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: The top ? professor b: as phd e: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . phd e: But we can , we we know that , for example , the log of E plus B is equal to log of E plus log to B . So you could s phd c: What is that ? phd e: And we can , put this inside . phd e: And then we can , professor b: N no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: Yeah . professor b: The , just more generally here , if you say " log of , A plus B " , the log of log of A plus B is not or A plus B is not the , log of E to the A plus E to the B . professor b: Right ? Cuz you cuz you up here you have the A plus B phd e: No . I say if I apply log , I have , log of E is equal to log of , in this side , is equal to log of X professor b: Plus N . professor b: And then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: This is right . OK , so let 's , C equals A plus B , phd c: It 's log o of capital Y . It 's just by definition that the individual that the , So , capital X is by definition the same as E to the little X because she 's saying that the little X is is the , is the log . professor b: I think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: Oh , yes . phd e: And now I can do it , pfff ! I can put log of EX plus log professor b: Oh . So now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , Taylor series expansion of this . And for that , well , the goal is to obtain , est estimate a PDF for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . Mmm ? And when w the way to obtain the PDF for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st Taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . phd e: And then when we have a expression , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: phd e: We can expre we can put that the PDF for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: Yeah . professor b: So , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: I don't know exactly . professor b: Cuz I think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , you don't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . And what are you using for the noisy ? Y y doing that strictly phd e: Of the noise I estimate the noises wi professor b: professor b: And and you and you train it up entirely from , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: . The first experiment that I do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: Yeah . phd e: the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . , because well , the VTS methods In fact the first thing that I do is to to obtain , an expression for E probability e expression of of E . That mean that the VTS mmm , with the VTS we obtain , well , we we obtain the means for each Gaussian and the variance . phd e: Because we can write , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . phd e: And we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of E minus a function that conditional to E to the T to the noise signal . Well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . phd e: And I can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus Well , I put before this name , And I can calculate this . professor b: What is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: this is the Gaussian . , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each Gaussian . phd e: And for calculate this , I have an I I can develop an expression that is phd d: It 's overlapping . I can calculate I can I calculated this value , with the statistic of the noisy speech that I calculated before with the VTS approximation . , with the , nnn when I develop this in s Taylor Taylor series , I can't , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the Gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . phd e: If I never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . phd e: And for each s , frame of the speech the only thing that I need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: So , I 'm I 'm not following this perfectly but , I Are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? And never change throughout anything else ? phd e: Yeah . phd e: And the other estimation is when I do the on - line estimation , I change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: Yeah ? phd e: each time that I detect noise . professor b: So you estimated , f completely forgetting what you had before ? , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: no , no , no . It 's not completely No , it 's I am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . Now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , just having , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? Yeah . , I know you don't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , phd e: I estimate mean and variance for each one of the Gaussian of the codebook . phd e: I don't know i professor b: And you and and it 's , right , it 's only it 's only one Wait a minute . This is what 's the dimensionality of the Gaussian ? This is phd e: it 's in after the mel filter bank . Yeah , maybe maybe you don't have a phd e: the original paper say that only one Gaussian for the noise . But , no no paper is is a Bible , phd e: Yeah , maybe isn't the right thing . professor b: The question is , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more So , suppose you did This is almost cheating . But if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the VAD and so forth or I I guess we 're gonna be given even better boundaries than that . And you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . professor b: So first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , nonspeech ? And the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? . Also another question might be , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector Taylor series ? phd e: Yeah . professor b: if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: Yeah . phd e: Oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that I am working with VTS . phd e: professor b: w we haven't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: It 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . phd f: professor b: They prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , information

The team was preparing to submit a paper to Eurospeech, which was being held in Denmark. They were also discussing the best way to present the reverberation problem, noting that the spectral effects were quite evident. In order to focus solely on the main voice, they needed to eliminate any sources of variance from the data. Additionally, PhD C informed the team that their Eurospeech paper had been accepted, and the conference would be held in Aalborg, Denmark in September. The team was also making advancements in on-line normalization, exploring two different approaches.

Summarize the discussion on Eurospeech, reverberation, the Eurospeech paper, and on-line normalization.

Item 2, then, this morning is a post-legislative scrutiny session on the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Huw Morris, who is director of the skills, higher education and lifelong learning group in Welsh Government. I will just start the questioning by asking whether you are planning to repeal the 2015 higher education Act, or will it be amended by the post-compulsory education and training Bill? kirsty williams am: Thank you very much, Chair. I'm very pleased to be with the committee again this morning, although it's in slightly unusual circumstances. As a piece of post-legislative scrutiny, this was a Bill that was taken forward by a different Minister in a different administration, but I think it is really valuable work in the context of the question you just set out: what can we learn from the implementation of this piece of legislation as we move forward with our reform journey and with this Government and my proposals to introduce a new commission for tertiary education? There is much, at the moment, that lies within the 2015 Act that we will look to bring forward into the new legislation, but there are certainly experiences—and I'm sure we'll come on to some of the evidence that has been received about what's worked, what perhaps hasn't worked—that we all want to reflect on and be mindful of as we take forward the new Bill, including the report of this committee as part of it. So, it is our intention that this Bill will be superceded by the new PCETR Bill. Do you believe that the Act has fulfilled all the Government's objectives? Where are the weaknesses? kirsty williams am: Diolch yn fawr, Siân. As I've said, it's a bit difficult to place myself in the mind of the previous Minister when this legislation was first envisaged and then taken through. You'll be aware that there were four main reasons for the introduction of the Bill: around regulation of institutions in Wales; safeguarding the contribution made to public good arising from Welsh Government's financial support for the sector; maintaining a focus on fair access; and preserving and protecting the principle of institutional autonomy. I think the evidence that has been received by the committee to date shows that there are different views about the effectiveness of whether all four strategic aims have been achieved. I think those strategic aims are still really, really important and certainly will underpin our thought process going forward, but we have to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England, the implementation of new student support measures in Wales, as well as the report that was done by Ellen Hazelkorn, I think, means it is appropriate that we move forward with different proposals, not just regulation of the HE sector but the post-compulsory sector as a whole. We will look to see what we can do to strengthen or whether there is more that we need to do to achieve those four objectives, because I think those four objectives are still very, very relevant. But we have to have legislation now that is fit for the circumstances we currently find ourselves in and, hopefully, futureproofs us for how we want to see the sector develop in the future. sian gwenllian am: Do you feel perhaps that the legislation itself hasn't been strong enough, and that you then have had to drive some of these objectives through the annual remit letter, rather than through legislation, and that's why the strengthening is required? kirsty williams am: Certainly, I see the remit letter as a really, really important way in which national priorities and the priorities of an elected Government can be clearly stated, communicated to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and then HEFCW use their powers to ensure that that happens. So, certainly, I see the remit letter as being a very important mechanism for ensuring, as I said, that those national priorities are clearly articulated, and then change happens. sian gwenllian am: Has the current legislation been framed around institutional autonomy so that it's not possible for institutions to fulfil any national outcomes, and is that going to be an element of the new Bill? kirsty williams am: Well, certainly, the 2015 Act contains numerous provisions that protect universities' privileges and autonomy. And that's really important, and those are principles that I am committed to in any legislation that I bring forward. We'll certainly be looking to see how we can carry those protections into the forthcoming Bill, but, at the same time, we do have to ensure appropriate regulation and accountability of institutions for their public funding and the privileges that they enjoy. We have a very positive working relationship with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and I am very fortunate to have a very positive working relationship with the sector. I don't think there's anything in the legislation per se that prevents those national priorities being articulated and being acted upon. sian gwenllian am: I don't think that's what HEFCW has said in their evidence. They've said that the Bill has been framed in a way where it's not possible for institutions to fulfil any requirements. You're talking about the remit letter; maybe you need to have that discussion there, but, in terms of the Bill itself, you can't make them fulfil any national outcomes. Shouldn't there be a discussion looking to move in a direction where there are national outcomes being set through legislation, because there is public money going into that? kirsty williams am: Well, I don't know whether we need national outcomes through legislation, because those national priorities, potentially, will change over time. What is really important, and what we will be seeking to do in the new legislation, is look to move to a system of outcome agreements. So, there is a very clear expectation that the commission will have, in regulating the sector, and co-ordinating and funding the sector, to create a system of outcome agreements, where those outputs will reflect national priorities, and that's one of the things that we've consulted on, and will look to take forward in the new legislation. What about private providers? The Act, or the Act as it stands, makes it a requirement for a regulated institution to be a charity, and that means it's not possible to regulate alternative private providers under the Act, even though they can provide higher education in Wales. What is your view on this, and will the new legislation continue with the requirement of being a charity? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, I think, first of all, it's important to make the distinction between the scale of private providers, and what could be termed as 'unregulated providers' in the Welsh system, as opposed to the English system. So, currently, under the current legislation, unregulated providers can only access Welsh Government student support if they're designated on a case-by-case basis. Only six organisations were designated on a case-by-case basis in the 2018-19 academic year, so the scale here is small. So, when we talk about a private provider, perhaps people would have a view of a private university, but, actually, three of those were FE colleges, which we would all be familiar with. And the three private providers were the Centre for Alternative Technology, the training arm of the Church in Wales and the Newport and District Group Training Association. So, in order for their courses to be specifically designated, the three crucial questions that those providers have to answer are: quality—is what they’re providing to students of a good quality; the financial viability of the institution, again, to try to protect the interests of the students who may find themselves embarking on a course in an institution that isn’t viable; as well as their contribution to private—sorry, not to private good—public good. But, Huw, I don't know if there's anything else to add? huw morris: Well, just to say that there are a very small number of private providers, as the Minister has outlined, and, in comparison with England, where I think the last figures said that there were between 300 and 400 private providers in England, you get a sense of the differences that exist there. And, if you look at what happened over recent years, it has been those small private providers across the UK who have been most financially challenged and a number of them have stopped their operations, with consequences for the students. So, we’ve been keen to put students at the front of things to make sure that the institutions that they’re enrolling with are strong and have good quality. So, what you're saying is that you will continue with a charitable status, or not— kirsty williams am: At this stage— sian gwenllian am: —or are you still thinking about it? kirsty williams am: Well, at this stage, I think the charitable status will continue to be an important part of what we will take forward. sian gwenllian am: Just turning finally to part-time fees and postgraduate fees, do you have an intention to regulate this part in the new legislation? kirsty williams am: I have to say that, at present, we've not identified an urgent reason to designate these courses as qualifying courses for the purposes of a fee limit. Actually, the current Act—the 2015 Act—does not permit the fee regulation of postgraduate courses, other than PGCE courses for IT purposes. In the case of part-time courses, I'm currently content that fee levels are not exceeding the amount of student support made available by the Welsh Government. So, I think we are, at this moment, relaxed about that, and there are some difficulties around deciding and introducing fee limits on postgraduate courses. I think what's really important to me is the success at the moment of attracting people to postgraduate and part-time study in Wales, as a result of our reforms to student finance. But, at this current moment, the Act precludes fee regulation in some areas and there's not a pressing policy need that we've identified to date. Okay, we're going to move on now to some questions about the level of ambition in the higher education Act and any lessons for the PCET Bill, from Janet Finch-Saunders. To what extent has the 2012 university funding system limited Welsh Government’s policy leverage over the sector, and how has the HE Act addressed this beyond the levers offered by fee and access plans? kirsty williams am: Of course, the Act was introduced as a direct result of the changing scenario around finance and the different ways in which, because of the reduction in HEFCW's budget, the level of influence that HEFCW would be able to exert over institutions through the imposition of terms and conditions of funding—. So, the Act was introduced in part to address that shift in influence and the Act also has provided HEFCW with a range of new powers of intervention and sanctions in the case of non-compliance by institutions. Personally, I wholeheartedly believe that tertiary education providers should contribute to national goals and outcomes as part of what I'd describe as a civic mission. I'm determined that any legislation that I bring forward and any commission that I establish will be empowered to enable that to happen through its regulatory and funding powers. Of course, the funding situation has shifted again now because of the introduction of what is commonly known as the Diamond reforms, but our new system of student finance does again shift the parameters of influence that HEFCW or any new tertiary commission could have. But, as I said earlier, it's not to say that institutions have had a free reign. We have been able to use the remit letter and our relationship with HEFCW to progress agendas that we would want to see. So, for instance, you'll be aware, in my remit letter, I am concerned about issues around how people working in the sector are paid. We've been able to successfully see all institutions sign up to becoming living wage employers, all institutions sign up to the Welsh Government's code of ethical procurement. So, it's not to say that the Act has meant that we've had no influence, but there are opportunities now, because of the change in financial circumstances once again, to look at that in any forthcoming legislation. Do you share HEFCW's views on the benefits of having national targets to get institutions to address national priorities? Is this something you wish you could do? kirsty williams am: Well, it's not something I wish I could do; I think that we're doing it. Self-praise is no recommendation, but, because of the working relationship that we have, I think we're seeing some success in using the remit letter to influence national outcomes. So, I've just talked about living wage; we're also using our remit letter to drive transparency over senior leaders' pay, the gender pay gap within institutions. For instance, as part of this Government's commitment to improving mental health, we've been able to use the remit letter and some funding to be able to drive change and some improvements in mental health in the higher education sector. These are national priorities and we're acting upon them and we're using the multiple levers we have at the moment to engage in universities. And, I have to say, universities have risen to that challenge, and I'm very grateful to them for doing that. Are there plans to give the proposed new PCET funding body more effective policy levers to align the sector to the social, economic and civic needs of Wales? And, if so, how will this be done? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said in answer earlier, I'm determined that we ensure a sense of civic mission for the entirety of the sector, including our institutes of higher education. You'll be aware, Janet, that, in the consultation exercises that have been undertaken by the Government so far on PCET reform, we will be introducing more formal outcome agreements, whereby institutions might be given by the commission very clear expectations of how they're expected to contribute to national priorities. We've heard that the HE Act, by focusing on individual institutions, did not encourage collaboration, even for widening access activity. Was this a missed opportunity and how will this be taken forward in the PCET Bill? kirsty williams am: I think we can strengthen our sector by closer collaboration. I think what sets us apart in Wales is that this Government is determined to create a legislative regime and a regulation regime that encourages collaboration and co-operation, which is in stark contrast to the marketisation and the competition that we see being regulated for and legislated for across the border in England. That's one of the reasons why we are going to introduce the new PCET reforms—to create collaboration, not just between different higher education institutes but actually across the sector. So, this is a prime opportunity where we can create a framework that demands and encourages collaboration, not just, as I said, in between individual institutions but across the entirety of the sector. We're doing that because that means we can avoid duplication, we can fill gaps that there currently are and we can create a system that allows for a seamless passage for students to move between the different parts of post-compulsory education that are currently available, where, sometimes, those students find barriers. lynne neagle am: Okay, Janet? janet finch-saunders am: Thank you—that's great, thank you. lynne neagle am: We've got some questions now around HEFCW's powers of intervention from Dawn Bowden. We received substantial evidence from HEFCW suggesting that powers were inflexible and hard to use—I think HEFCW called them 'threatening'—saying that they make sanctions difficult to use and so on. Are you satisfied that HEFCW's powers are useful on a preventative day-to-day basis? kirsty williams am: If I may disagree slightly, I don't think their powers are frightening. It's very clear what powers are available to HEFCW, and they're certainly more than just the ability to, maybe, lean on an institution. Clearly, there is a system by which there is the ability to, you know, ramp up and escalate levels of intervention in the sector by HEFCW, but I certainly wouldn't describe them as inflexible or not having weight. dawn bowden am: I think they were saying it was difficult to use for swift interventions—they found it a bit cumbersome. They explained to us that they often take informal measures or actions in their role as regulator, and they've explained that the small size of the sector enables good relationships to be developed. How can such measures work in the tertiary education body when there clearly will be many more than the 10 providers? kirsty williams am: Well, looking ahead to the new Bill, I would want to see and be very keen to ensure that there are sufficiently flexible—did you use the word soft—and soft regulatory powers that the commission could exercise. Those powers, for instance, could include the ability to offer advice and guidance, rather than, maybe, punitive interventions, and powers to undertake enhanced monitoring of institutions to ensure compliance with regulatory conditions. So, I would expect the commission to be able to have a series of abilities to intervene, from the soft, flexible type, which is non-punitive but actually allows people to go in and support institutions, through to something that would be, as I said, more punitive, if they felt that an institution was in danger of not providing quality or financial failure. hefin david am: Can I just come in there, on the point that was made? The issue that seemed to me to come from HEFCW and from the universities is that the dial seems to have only three steps. So, rather than having a graduated series of actions that they can take, it seems to step from—what did he call it—a 'meeting without coffee' to— kirsty williams am: That's a very HEFCW thing to say. hefin david am: —potentially institutions going bankrupt, and there don't seem to be many steps in between that. kirsty williams am: I think, as I said at the beginning of the session, this is why this post-legislative scrutiny is useful, because we can reflect on that feedback. As I said, I would expect to be able to ensure that the commission had a range of powers that could address—from that soft power and those early conversations to being able to, as I said, issue, perhaps, advice and guidance to an institution, so there would be a more graduated escalation. Huw, is there anything else that I've missed out? huw morris: Just to build on what the Minister has said, there's a range of ways in which we interact with all institutions that are going to be in the tertiary sector, and some of that is about providing information. So, HEFCW provides information—it sends around circulars, it produces reports and it holds events. There's staff, management and leadership development activity, which can create a culture amongst the leaders of institutions, but also amongst their governing bodies, to help them move in a particular direction. We use those mechanisms and informal interactions with FE college principals, with the work-based learning provider network, with sixth forms and others, and we would want to see, I hope, in the tertiary sector some alignment of those things. I think what stands behind HEFCW's comments is that before we had a loan-based system of student finance, there was a system of block grant allocations and conditions could be attached to those grant allocations by HEFCW. I don't think we're going to be going back to that system in the foreseeable future because of the pressures on public finances— hefin david am: That wasn't how I understood it. I understood it to be the fact that you use these informal powers and then the next step up is quite a severe sanction and there's not much in between those. huw morris: In the Hazelkorn review, there's quite a lot of focus on that and looking to learn from other national systems where outcome agreements provide a broader measure of the range of things the institutions do and a mechanism for tracking how things are done through the provision of information back to the institution to help them know how they're doing. What we have to strike the balance of as well is at what point those powers seem to be—and the ability to direct—interfering with the principle of autonomy within an institution. So, there's that balance to be struck, isn't there, about creating a regulatory regime, which I'm very keen and the Act attempted to do, which was to enshrine institutional autonomy, and that's really, really important, but also a regulatory regime, the ability to influence and to develop and to deliver national outcomes and the power to intervene in that sector, which you know, better than probably anybody else in this room, guards that institutional autonomy very, very, very dear indeed. And that's the balance that we need to try and strike as we go forward with the new commission proposals. I think, in terms of the levels of measures—and I understand what you're saying—but I think what HEFCW were saying was that they try as far as possible to use informal measures and they are able to do that because of the size of the sector—just 10 institutions to work with. The post-16 sector, however many we're talking—50 plus providers—it's probably going to be less likely that they would be able to have that sort of relationship with the leaders in those institutions. kirsty williams am: Yes, but also, what's incumbent upon me as the Minister is to ensure that the commission is set up in a way where it can have that relationship with the sector, because what's really important to remember is that HEFCW will be replaced. We're not asking HEFCW suddenly to go from regulating a small number of institutions to suddenly regulating 50. We'll be creating a commission that will be structured in such a way that it can have those relationships. Because, of course, whilst HEFCW will face changes, our relationship with and how we manage the FE sector and the apprenticeship sector will also shift. So, the point is that we need to create a commission that will still be able to be close to the sector, close enough to be able to provide that soft regulation, those really important relationships in a way—. So, it has to be created in such a way and resourced in such a way that it allows that to happen, and that's my intention. Well, then, of course, the University of Wales said to us that they felt that there was the potential for HEFCW to issue directions enforceable by injunction to remedy minor matters. So, I think, from what you're saying, you wouldn't be expecting that to happen. Just the fact that they've got the power doesn't necessarily mean that that's what they're going to do. kirsty williams am: Well, I think it's important to recognise when HEFCW can enforce its directions by way of an injunction. If they were to do that because a university was breaking fee limits or because there were real questions about the quality of the provision or whether a university was not complying with the financial management code—personally, I wouldn't describe those as minor matters, as a Minister, if we had an institution that was significantly falling down on quality and HEFCW were using these powers to intervene. And, actually, on that point, we've had some recent high-profile issues in Swansea and Trinity St David, and HEFCW still haven't yet used their powers of intervention. Do you find that surprising? kirsty williams am: I think what they have done in these circumstances is, perhaps, used their ability to support those institutions through what, undoubtedly, have been challenging times. Given the fact that there are ongoing legal processes attached to Swansea University, I think it would not be appropriate for me to comment any further, because there are still matters in train with regard to that institution. But clearly, our expectation on HEFCW is to ensure that they are using their powers to support those universities, and I would expect them, if they felt necessary, to use the full remit of their powers if they felt that that was what they needed to do. Now, I have to trust their professional judgment that that has not been necessary to date, but our expectation is that they would do that if they felt it was necessary. hefin david am: Are you concerned that neither the regulator nor the sector seem to have any confidence in fee and access plans? kirsty williams am: I think the concept of a fee and access plan is an important concept. Whether we can do them better, whether we can reflect on what's happened to date and create a better system of what's included in a fee and access plan and how those fee and access plans can be monitored, there's an opportunity to do that in forthcoming legislation. hefin david am: So, have you been aware of specific issues yourself? Have they brought them to you? kirsty williams am: Well, no, not in the sense that they've brought them to me to talk about specifically. From my perspective, fee and access plans are focused very much on inputs, and, really, I'd like to think about outputs and outcomes, more importantly—what are the outcomes of the fee and access plan, not necessarily just how much money has been spent on them. I think, certainly, to really understand the success of the fee and access plan, you have to question whether an annual basis is an appropriate timescale for a university to be working to, and whether we could have something that was focused over a longer period of time. Because, when you think about it, you write the plan and then you're into it, and then, the next thing you know, you're writing your next year's plan. So, do I see a place for fee and access plans going forward, as part of our outcome agreements? Yes, I do. hefin david am: So, why would introducing outcome agreements make them work any better? kirsty williams am: Well, I think they're going to be a part of an outcome agreement—part of that wider expectation. So, fee and access plans are there to address an issue around, primarily, changing the nature of people who go to university and making sure that nobody is put off from pursuing that. So, that's part of a wider piece of work that I'd want to see as an outcome agreement. But, as I said, I think looking at outcomes for students and outcomes of that activity, rather than the inputs of the activity, over a longer period of time, is probably a more effective way of doing it. In a way, it's difficult to make a final judgment on whether fee and access plans in their current format have worked, because we need to know what'll happen to those students in the future. But undoubtedly, despite the limitations of them, I do think we're making progress in terms of access, but I don't think we can necessarily point to the fee and access plans as being the driver for some of those improvements. hefin david am: No, I appreciate that, and some of the things you're saying reflect some of the discussions we've had, but what was clear is that the process and bureaucratic nature of the way you present fee and access plans doesn't work, particularly given the fact that, four years on, early fee and access plans are still being evaluated. So, what you're saying—can I just pin down what you're saying—is that we may be moving away from yearly fee and access plans to something that's longer term and outcome focused. kirsty williams am: That's my preference. So, I think the principle—I'd like to think we can all agree around the principle of what a fee and access plan is hoping to achieve, but I think there are better ways of doing it, and I think we should take the opportunity of reform to look at how we can do it better. hefin david am: So, with that in mind, I think we're talking about the future of the Bill, the consultation on the PCET reforms closed in summer 2018—with these important issues in mind and things that are currently ongoing, have you had further dialogue since then with key stakeholders like, for example, Universities Wales and others? kirsty williams am: On the Bill or on fee and access plans in particular? hefin david am: I'm thinking about fee and access plans as an issue that suggests that there is a need for deep consultation, so with that in mind, with things like that, have you had further discussion? kirsty williams am: Oh my goodness me, civil servants in the department are constantly in discussion with a range of stakeholders as we continue to develop legislative proposals. I meet on a regular basis with both HEFCW—I meet separately with the vice-chancellors, and I've been very keen to develop a stronger working relationship with chairs, and perhaps we'll come on to issues of governance later. So, we are constantly discussing with stakeholders all options for change— hefin david am: I suppose the message I'm getting as chair of the cross-party group on higher education is that there could still be more direct consultation with stakeholders. Now, I've got no evidence to say it has or hasn't happened, but that's the message I've received. huw morris: If I could just chip in for a moment, the Minister's outlined that there is very extensive, ongoing communication both ways with the sector, but the challenge of preparing a Bill is the balancing act between gathering in information—and there's been a general consultation process and a technical consultation process—and wanting to make sure that the Bill that's laid next year hasn't been discussed with anybody else before it comes to be considered by the Senedd. So, the broad principles have been discussed, but specific details of what goes into a Bill or policy instructions that inform a Bill haven't been the subject of consultation— hefin david am: Because that happens at Stage 1. Sorry, can I move on to the next item? lynne neagle am: Oh, you're going on to the next section. hefin david am: Yes, unless there's anything specific— lynne neagle am: Yes, I just wanted to clarify, if we're moving to a longer term approach to this, how will the new body be able to establish that things are actually working, that the powers are working, if we're working on a five-year time frame? kirsty williams am: As we've heard, we can't really properly assess fee and access plans in the current arrangements, because it takes time for those cohorts of students to go through and activities to go through. Being able to move to a system where fee and access plans, for instance, could be over a three-year period I think allows universities to be more strategic in some of their investments and some of their activities around fee and access. In a single-year plan, it's almost knee-jerk, it's the need to demonstrate that you're doing something, and doing that within that period of time, rather than a more strategic view—. Can I just say, I know it's not quite subject to this, but we're really moving forward in terms of access and broadening access into the HE sector. For me, student financial support is one aspect of it, but if we're really thinking about social mobility and attracting people into higher education that have never been part of higher education before, our early figures would suggest—they're early figures, and they're subject to change, but in terms of our change to our student support regime, we have seen a 58 per cent increase in the number of postgraduates applying for student support in Wales. When you think about it, when many of us went to university, a degree was the thing that set you apart. Now that more and more students are going to university, it is that postgraduate qualification that sets you apart, but your ability to carry on studying is often limited by access to financial support, so a 58 per cent increase in postgraduate I think is great for those individuals, but it's also great for our economy. We've seen a 35 per cent increase in part-time undergraduates that have been supported by the Student Loans Company; the Open University have reported a 67 per cent increase in students from Wales's most economically disadvantaged areas registering with them; a 57 per cent increase in disabled students; and a 30 per cent increase in black, minority ethnic learners. So, I think that's a really, really positive basis for our sector to continue to work on broadening access. The feedback from Universities Wales suggests that, with the outcome of the 2015 Act, institutions with the strongest track records are more highly regulated than the riskier private alternative providers. Do you think that Act has struck the right balance? kirsty williams am: I think the Act has created a system where the level of regulation is proportional to the amount and the nature of public moneys received by institutions. Those were the words used by Universities Wales— kirsty williams am: No, no, I'm not disagreeing. When you look at public moneys going into institutions, I think that the Act is proportionate, myself. hefin david am: So, do you think it's in the interests of students, then, to be at private institutions—? I've seen those private institutions and how they operate; I've seen them at first-hand—they don't operate to the same rigour as public institutions, and they're less regulated. huw morris: Can I just chip in? I think that the category 'private' covers quite a wide range of things, and many private institutions are also charities. We don't have the presence of some of the large private charities that are present in other countries, but Stanford and Harvard would count as private universities. I think there has been attention drawn to some private providers, particularly in England, but I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush, necessarily. hefin david am: But they fall outwith—if they're not charitable providers running validated courses, for example, they fall outwith the strength of regulation that is currently in place on the universities in Wales. kirsty williams am: So, we would regulate them on a course-by-course basis, so it's back to the issue of proportionality, isn't it? So, you are automatically regulated for all your courses, if you're one of our main universities, but there is a process that is run by HEFCW on a course-by-course basis to validate alternative providers. And as Huw said, I think we should recognise the nature of that is very, very, very small in Wales, and there is a process to ensure quality provision. hefin david am: And I'm aware that there are a small number of private institutions in Wales, but are you concerned that in the future the landscape may change, particularly with the opportunity to recruit more part-time students? Do you think the landscape may change in future and that the 2015 Act, as designed, wasn't equipped for that, and will the next Act, then, be equipped? kirsty williams am: I think it's right to say that maybe the previous legislation didn't futureproof for changes. I'm not anticipating a mass influx of alternative providers, in the sense that we've seen across the border, but we will need to ensure that the new commission has powers to regulate and to futureproof. We had some evidence from the University and College Union that were concerned about the governance of universities, actually, as being a bigger problem than the regulatory framework in many ways. Can you tell us, perhaps, how the HE Act addresses the issue of poor governance, or is it really just limited to responding to the symptoms rather than the poor governance itself? kirsty williams am: Well, I think it's true and fair to say that the Bill does not directly address issues around governance in the sector. HEFCW do have well-established assurance practices in relation to governance that would predate the 2015 legislation. But governance—we've talked briefly about some recent history within the sector that I think has certainly brought the issue of governance to the fore once again, and I think there are two important things that we're trying to do about that in the current time, prior to any legislative changes. The first is, as I just said to Hefin, I have sought to have a more direct relationship with chairs of universities and have that one-to-one relationship with them, not in the presence of their vice-chancellors. I challenge them, they challenge me, and I think we've deliberately tried to establish a regular routine of that since I took office. And you'll be aware that, collaboratively—and I'm glad that this has been done in this way because I think if you do it this way, we're more likely to get some success and change—Universities Wales and HEFCW have worked together to undertake an independent review of governance. And I think it's really important that parties have come together to recognise the issues and to agree to take action, because I think if we'd have tried to impose something, we'd have more resistance. So, there is an independent review going on at the moment— dawn bowden am: Is that the risk review process in—? kirsty williams am: That's the Gillian Camm review. This is a review that, as I said, Universities Wales and HEFCW have agreed to do together. It's chaired by Gillian Camm, who is the chair of the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education, and she is doing an independent review to advise on changes to governance. And I welcome that, I'm very supportive of that, and that's happening at the moment. As I said, I'm glad that there's been recognition from within the sector themselves that they need to make sure, and they need to give confidence, that governance arrangements are what they should be. dawn bowden am: So, is that something that you're going to be taking into the PCET Bill, do you think? kirsty williams am: Yes, absolutely. We're exploring how the Bill could introduce a regulatory condition in respect of good governance, and a commission would be able to set expectations with regard to good governance. I think one of the concerns for me—and I know that this is a concern that is shared by the UCU—is the diversity of governance and who finds themselves in these really important positions. HEFCW don't hold figures on it, but from an approximation that I've asked officials to do for me, currently in the universities that we have, I would say that men make up around 56 per cent of membership of universities' governing bodies; women—44 per cent; BME—as low as 4 per cent. Of course, in individual institutions, it does vary, but I think there is some way to go to making sure that our governing bodies are diverse and that there's an opportunity to look at the student voice in governance going forward, the staff voice in governance going forward, and these are things that we hope to have discussions on whilst we bring the legislation forward. dawn bowden am: But also, I guess—sorry, Chair—a greater understanding, that anybody going in to become a governor of one of these institutions has a greater understanding of what is expected of them. Do you think that that's a gap that needs to be plugged? huw morris: One of the things that HEFCW have led on with AdvanceHE, the body that encompasses the leadership foundation, is a development programme for governing bodies, and that started earlier—well, it's been going on for some time, but it was recommenced earlier this year, with a session for all of the chairs of universities in Wales. And I believe—I'll need to check this—that there are plans to engage with each of the governing bodies, because, as you rightly say, and this lies behind a lot of what we've been discussing, the activities of these institutions have become much more complex over recent years, and so there is a need for that training and development and understanding also of the fast-changing nature of that activity. lynne neagle am: Okay, just before we move on, can I ask whether it's your plan to legislate on that, as they've done in Scotland? kirsty williams am: As I said, I don't want to pre-empt scrutiny of the Bill, because we need to be able to come to the committee and do that in the entirety, rather than picking off individual bits of it, but we are absolutely exploring how the Bill could introduce a regulatory condition with regard to governance. We've heard evidence regarding the difficulties caused by HEFCW having a legal duty to quality-assure all the provision in two further education colleges. Could you clarify that and explain the situation in that instance? kirsty williams am: Thank you. My understanding—and as I said, it's a bit difficult, because I can't put myself into the thought process of the Minister at the time and what his expectation was. But, certainly, my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence, it was an expectation built into the Act that HEFCW and Estyn would work together on these matters. The Act built on what were the quality assessment arrangements in the 1992 Act, which required HEFCW to secure arrangements for the assessment of the quality of education provided by funding institutions. So, as a consequence of that approach, HEFCW's quality assessment duty currently encompasses all the education provided by or on behalf of a regulated institution. So, it is complicated, and Huw can help me out here if I get it wrong, but my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence, that was the expectation of what would happen when the legislation was passed. That was a theme in the general and technical consultation exercises that we've engaged in over the last couple of years. sian gwenllian am: So, you're happy, therefore, that that partnership has worked. Are you happy with that? kirsty williams am: Certainly, in our consultation for the upcoming Act, we've generally heard, certainly from our further education colleges, that they've been quite content with the arrangements. huw morris: There are differences in the systems of quality assurance as they've historically applied to FE and HE, but I understand that that has meant that, as FE colleges become more interested in HE, they've had to learn new ways, and that's taken a little bit of time. sian gwenllian am: Okay, which moves us on to this idea of having one quality assurance body or one quality assurance framework. Is that your intention and how will that work in practice? kirsty williams am: I am aware, and we've listened to stakeholders' concerns regarding proposals to introduce a single quality assessment body. As I said, we recognise that stakeholders are broadly content with the current situation with regard to Estyn and QAA. So, we've been listening to that, following the technical consultation, and policy officials are working through options in regard to ensuring what quality assurance will look like in the commission. As I said, I don't want to pre-empt bringing forward the legislation, but the principles underlying any assurance regime would need to be coherent, need to be effective and need to be comprehensive. What we're also very clear about, and I think it is important to say, is that any quality framework covering higher education will be compatible with ENQA, which I think is really, really important going forward. sian gwenllian am: But, you have touched on this, there is substantial concern in the sector about this offer to move to one assurance body for the tertiary sector. One vice-chancellor has told us: kirsty williams am: Well, sometimes, I think it is necessary, maybe, to cause a stir. If we don't change things, it does beg the point of, 'Why are any of us here if we're not here to sometimes move things forward?' And change is challenging always, but I would like to reassure all of our vice-chancellors and our sector as a whole that we're not going to do anything in the quality assurance regime that would risk what is the very high reputation and standards that Welsh universities currently comply with or would set them apart from institutions across the border or in a European context. I think the fear is misplaced, but coming back to another theme in the conversation so far about futureproofing, what we're seeing in the figures that the Minister outlined to you earlier about the growth in postgraduate and the growth in part-time is the desire of a greater number of people at different ages to engage in higher and tertiary education, and quite often that will be in a workplace or it will be in a non-conventional institutional setting. Historically, the quality assurance regimes for work-based learning have tended to sit with Estyn; the assurance regimes for the universities have sat with the QAA. There's quite a lot of learning that all sides have got to engage in if we're going to be able to have continued high quality in these new areas that are being explored. The Augar report, which was published earlier this year in England, drew attention to this as being a major problem in the relationship over the border between Ofsted and the QAA. So, I think we're not looking to impose one institution on anybody, but we are looking to encourage greater synergy in the ways in which quality assurance and enhancement is undertaken in those different areas of activity. Will the new Bill address these issues? kirsty williams am: Well, certainly transnational education does present real opportunities for Welsh institutions, but if not managed appropriately and regulated appropriately can cause real risks to reputation to our sector. When I meet with vice-chancellors in universities in different parts of the world, and when I am visiting different countries, one of the great things that I'm able to say is that we have a sector that provides fantastic quality of teaching, excellence in research and a wonderful student experience, and that is undermined if institutions find themselves undertaking TNE activities that put that at risk. So, it's an important consideration for the health of the whole sector that any TNE undertaken by a Welsh institution has the appropriate quality guarantees built into that because it's a problem not just for an individual institution, but it could undermine the very strong reputation that the Welsh sector has as a whole. Huw, was there anything further about TNE? huw morris: Well, just to say that we are live to that, as I know HEFCW and the QAA are. When they visit institutions with their reviews they will look at a selection of those overseas activities and there are periodic thematic reviews of the activity in particular countries. I think we would hope and believe that HEFCW, in its conversations with the QAA, would be keeping that under review to minimise the risk and maximise the opportunities. sian gwenllian am: So, you're not actually looking to use the new legislation to strengthen the regulation around this. huw morris: The arrangements at the moment are that HEFCW uses the QAA to do the reviews and the inspections. The system at the moment works through co-operation between the institutions and the regulator to make sure the quality assurance system is improving and enhancing things. Well, can I thank you both for attending this morning and answering all our questions? As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you both for your attendance this morning. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Education regarding the revised additional learning needs implementation plan. Paper to note 2 is additional information from HEFCW, following the meeting on 18 July, in relation to our post-legislative scrutiny of the Higher Education (Wales) Act. And paper to note 3 is a letter from us to the Welsh Local Government Association on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Act 2019. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and for item 1 on 2 October? Are Members content? Thank you.

The new system of student finance has shifted the parameters of influence for HEFCW and any new tertiary commission. All institutions have successfully become living wage employers and have signed up to the Welsh Government's code of ethical procurement. The government plans to use the remit letter to promote transparency in senior leaders' pay and address the gender pay gap within institutions. Funding and the remit letter have been successful in driving improvements in mental health in the higher education sector. The PCET reforms aim to encourage collaboration and cooperation across the sector through a legislative and regulatory regime.

What are the achievements of the Act and the Bill so far and what improvements can be made to them?

professor g: Alright ! grad a: So , sorry about not professor g: We 're not crashing . postdoc f: I don't know if you 're professor g: Yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: maybe raise the issue of microphone , procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: OK , transcription , microphone issues postdoc f: And then maybe ask , th , these guys . The we have great great , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . phd d: use grad a: but I 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: phd b: Since , since I have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: I beg your pardon ? professor g: Well phd c: Which is ? grad a: What 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: I beg your pardon ? phd d: Yeah . professor g: But phd b: Well , I guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: Yeah . , and , the other thing , which I 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting I had the other day when I was in Spain with , Manolo Pardo and Javier , Ferreiros , who was here before , was , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . So , in what Javier did before when they were doing , h he was looking for , speaker change points . As a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , a putative , speaker change point . professor g: And , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp , phonetic class , for instance . professor g: And , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , w why are you spending so much time , on the , feature issue , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: Nnn , yeah . professor g: So then you 've got you already have the super - structure with Gaussians and H - you know , simple H M Ms and so forth . And you you might So there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because I I thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . professor g: But , on the other hand I saw that the they had a good point that , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit Because ultimately we 're gonna end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: Yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple and you 're testing the hypothesis that , there is a change . Yeah , why don't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: Yeah . Do I I hear you you didn't phd c: Speech - nonspeech ? OK . phd c: so , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . phd c: And what I did so far is I just used our old Munich system , which is an - ba based system with Gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . And it was a system which used only one Gaussian for silence and one Gaussian for speech . phd c: Adam , Dave , and I , we did , for that dialogue and I trained it on that . They they can use it or ? postdoc f: they they think it 's a terrific improvement . postdoc f: And , y you also did some something in addition which was , for those in which there was , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: And so I did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: And did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: I did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: Right . phd c: It 's just our our old Munich , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd c: And four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . And so I did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , yeah to have more or less , silence portions in inserted . grad a: But for overlap I imagine that doesn't work at all , phd c: Yeah . But it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: grad a: Yep . W w we originally we did that professor g: Just phd c: but we saw , when we used it , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in Munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . professor g: Yeah , I don't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: Yeah . But then there 's another thing that also Thilo 's involved with , which is , OK , and and also Da - Dave Gelbart . we , regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired I think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . postdoc f: So we don't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . So @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . Because what would ultimately be , ideal in my my view and I think , I had the sense that it was consensus , is that , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . Because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . So , I spoke I had a meeting with Dave Gelbart on on and he had , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . But , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . , I talked with , Munich guys from from Ludwi - Ludwig Maximilians University , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . phd c: And they basically said they have they have , a tool they developed themselves and they can't give away , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: Yeah . phd c: But , Susanne Bur - Burger , who is at se CMU , he wa who was formally at in Munich and w and is now at with CMU , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: Excuse me . grad a: Well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange Windows machines to be available . postdoc f: I also wanted to be sure , I 've I 've seen the this this is called Praat , PRAAT , which I guess means spee speech in Dutch or something . phd c: Yeah , but then I 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . professor g: The other thing , to keep in mind , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: Mmm , yeah . professor g: but , I think our outside sponsor is actually gonna kick in postdoc f: So I don't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . I think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . But as far a you know , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . phd b: But you s grad a: What our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . postdoc f: And and I was just thinking that , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . postdoc f: And , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . And it 'll be I 'm I 'm I 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . postdoc f: I sent it to , who did I send that to ? I sent it to a list and I thought I sent it to the e to the local list . postdoc f: You saw that ? So Brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gonna check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: Yeah . So phd b: But about the need for transcription , postdoc f: Isn't that great ? phd b: don't we didn't we previously decide that the IBM transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: So . grad a: Yeah , and Dave Gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: Good . grad a: and since he 's not here , I 'll repeat it to at least modify Transcriber , which , if we don't have something else that works , I think that 's a pretty good way of going . My approach originally , and I 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because I was trying to display all the waveforms . grad a: That if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . And and , Dan Ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: No . They can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: Oh , yes , but Well , yes , but what is that , from the transcriber 's perspective , those two functions are separate . And Dan Ellis 's hack handles the , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . postdoc f: grad a: The waveform you 're looking at doesn't change . postdoc f: Yeah , but that 's that 's OK , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: Right . postdoc f: which then would also serve Liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: Well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in They seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . I just think I told them to contact Jane that , if they had a grad a: Oh , OK . So is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at Columbia , collections at at UW Dan Dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: Right . grad a: Well , I think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . postdoc f: N there was also this , email from Dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . postdoc f: I don't know if , we wanna , and Dan Gel - and Dave Gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . He was talking he was talking , we he had postdoc f: Cross professor g: Yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: Cross professor g: I had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , voice , you know , active miking , postdoc f: - huh . professor g: So , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , selection of who who 's talking . professor g: And those those systems work very well , by the way , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: - huh . professor g: and , those if Boy , the guy I knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: . Cuz there is one thing that we don't have right now and that is the automatic , channel identifier . postdoc f: That that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . postdoc f: The the transcribers would have less , disentangling to do if that were available . So I think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: But . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: Yeah . So that , you cou yo grad a: Yeah , although the the using the close - talking I think would be much better . professor g: I just it 'd be If I was actually working on it , I 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . , the the the , But , you certainly wanna use the close - talking , as a at least . professor g: I don't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . What what are the different , classes to to code , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: to code d phd d: What you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: Yeah . postdoc f: so at a meeting that wasn't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . postdoc f: And , phd d: Look like , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? The ? Yeah ? Yeah . So it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . And then below that there 're subcategories , that have more to do with , you know , is it , simply backchannel phd d: postdoc f: or is it , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . And I hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . , I I I I 've phd b: So who 's gonna do that ? Who 's gonna do forced alignment ? grad a: Well , u , IBM was going to . grad a: and I imagine they still plan to but but , you know , I haven't spoken with them about that recently . postdoc f: It occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , by professor g: postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , say professor g: I know these are er , I could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: Yeah ! professor g: they and and , you know , the the organization always did wanna help us . professor g: It was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . professor g: So , eh grad a: Is he on the mailing list ? The Meeting Recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: Oh ! grad a: We should add him . phd e: Did something happen , Morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: Add him . phd e: or ? professor g: No , I , eh , eh , p It it oc I h it 's Yeah , something happened . So , where are we ? Maybe , brief Well , let 's why don't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: Yeah . professor g: That was that was a grad a: so one thing is that I did look on Sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . But I think I need someone who knows more about mikes than I do , because I couldn't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . Does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: Oh , I probably would . phd e: You couldn't you couldn't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: Yep . When I looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: Huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . Well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: And there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: Yeah . professor g: Who who are we buying these from ? grad a: professor g: That 'd be grad a: I have it downstairs . grad a: And then , just in terms of how you wear them , I had thought about this before . , when when when you use a product like DragonDictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . grad a: But I felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gonna get people to really do it and maybe it wasn't worth concentrating on . But professor g: Well , I think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . That 's what I was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gonna get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . But I I think that it it doesn't hurt , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: professor g: because , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . professor g: I think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people aren't gonna be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . professor g: So this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . professor g: And , it 's gonna make You know , if if An - Andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gonna be m wanna be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . professor g: So it 's it 's , grad a: Well , I 'll dig through the documentation to DragonDictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: Right ? , and any phd b: It 's interesting , I talked to some IBM guys , last January , I think , I was there . phd b: And they said , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . grad a: Well , that 's the It seemed to me when I was using Dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , an enormous amount . grad a: So you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it doesn't the wind doesn't hit the mike . professor g: I remember when I was when I I I I used , a prominent laboratory 's , speech recognizer about , This was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . And , they were they were perturbed with me because I was breathing in instead of breathing out . And they had models for they they had Markov models for br breathing out but they didn't have them for breathing in . Well , what I wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: Yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . postdoc f: I don't know if the if it 's professor g: I grad a: You can definitely see it . grad a: And so , you know , I 've I 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: I grad a: and the bar going up and down , and I 'm thinking , I could say something , but professor g: I think grad a: I don't want to make people self - conscious . And you can do some , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: Yeah . postdoc f: Yeah , i professor g: And then , you know , I think there 's not much Because you can't al you know , interfere w you can't fine tune the meeting that much , I think . It just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . My my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: Yeah . postdoc f: I could say something about about the Well , I don't know what you wanna do . professor g: About what ? postdoc f: About the transcribers or anything or ? I don't know . professor g: Well , the other phd b: But , just to to , professor g: why don't we do that ? phd b: One more remark , concerning the SRI recognizer . It is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . phd b: So , grad a: So , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: Mmm . postdoc f: They 're putting Eh , so in curly brackets they put " inhale " or " breath " . Now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , m So they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . postdoc f: One is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . postdoc f: And and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . So , I I did s I did some double checking to look through , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: It 's not so I don't think it 's , postdoc f: And that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying " curly brackets laughing " a after the unit . phd b: As as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words I think that 's sufficient , phd c: Yeah . phd b: So as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: Oh , I didn't know that . grad a: That would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: Then phd d: Yeah . postdoc f: So , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . postdoc f: But if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . phd b: Well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . phd b: But , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: OK . grad a: So are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: is it ? phd d: Huh . There was a there 's actually a word for , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: grad a: So train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: Same thing ? Yeah . professor g: No grad a: Oh , it does ? phd b: So the so the the mouth noise , word has just a single phone , that is for that . professor g: Right ? , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , different states . professor g: And then you would have three , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: Do whatever you want . phd b: And the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd b: They actually are , it 's just a single , s , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: To go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: And how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: It 's just a it 's just a word . We also tried , absorbing these , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , phd d: Yeah . We also tried absorbing that into the pause model , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . You you did get me to thinking about I I 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing I think it may be an individual thing . grad a: I was noticing that with Dan in the one that we , we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: Yeah . And and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . Why don why don't we just since we 're on this vein , why don't we just continue with , what you were gonna say about the transcriptions postdoc f: OK . professor g: and ? postdoc f: the I I 'm really very for I 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , applied and who are transcribing for us . They are , really perceptive and very , and I 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: Cuz they 're gonna be transcribing it in a few days . So I , e you know , I I brought them in and , trained them in pairs because I think people can raise questions grad a: That 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and , I trained them to , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . This also gives me a sense of You know , I can I can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . But the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . And then , I just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . postdoc f: Well , they they 're very perce they 'll So one of them said " well , you know , he really said " n " , not really " and " , phd d: Yeah . postdoc f: so what what should I do with that ? " grad a: Yeah . If it 's an a noncanonical p " That one , I think we you know , with Eric 's work , I sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . But I told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , like I said in one thing , professor g: OK . postdoc f: and I gave my my example , like I said , " microfon " in instead of " microphone " . But it but I thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . postdoc f: But I have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native English American English speaker , you know that I didn't mean to say " microfon . " Then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: Yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets " pron error " . Well Well , you know , it might be something we 'd wanna do with some , s small subset of the whole thing . Where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: I think professor g: We certainly wouldn't wanna do it with everything . , if , so I I told them that , we don't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: - huh . postdoc f: and I also m I think they know that the data p source is limited and I may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although I hope to . professor g: The other thing we could do , actually , is , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . professor g: Right ? grad a: We could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . professor g: But I 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . professor g: Right ? postdoc f: And with the right in interface professor g: Given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: Yeah . professor g: which we know from the Steve 's experience with the Switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . And and you know , it took them I don't know how many months to do to get four hours . But , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . professor g: I 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . professor g: It 's a we have we have due to @ @ variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: Is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: So I don't wanna hire a grad a: Calendar year or ? professor g: calendar year two thousand one . So it 's , it 's we don't wanna hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: Full - time . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . But having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , funding . phd e: Are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: But Some of them are . But what is Oh , I shouldn't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . I th I I would say they 're probably they don't have o they don't have other things that are taking away their time . professor g: I postdoc f: I I I haven't checked them all , but just spot - checking . grad a: I think it would be professor g: I remember when we were transcribing BeRP , Ron Kay , volunteered to to do some of that . Well , you know , and I also thought , y Liz has this , eh , you know , and I do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . These people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: We 'd have to mark them . grad a: I think it would also be interesting to have , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: Yeah . postdoc f: You know , there 's also , the e In my mind , I think A An - Andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , we haven't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from IBM , and it may just be , you know , pristine . But on the other hand , given the lesser interface Cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m professor g: It could be that they will theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . professor g: Maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gonna do these alignments , which will also clear things up . Al - although you have to s Don't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: Well , tha that 's that 's debatable . professor g: Right ? , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , clean things up . professor g: And , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough , to give an example of , something we used to do , at one point , back back when Chuck was here in early times , is we would take , da take a word and , have a canonical pronunciation and , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . professor g: Right ? , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . You start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that doesn't really look too bad . professor g: So so I think using a a good aligner , actually can can help a lot . If you have a good alignment , it helps the , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . I guess there 's another aspect , too , and I don't know , this this is very possibly a different , topic . So like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uses of the data , professor g: postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , e , I I I did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , transcribed meeting professor g: postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wanna do with each meeting , sort of like a , it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , professor g: postdoc f: i I I don't know what , level of detail would be most useful . I don't know i if that 's something that I should do when I look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: eh , was p Well , you know , the thing I 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: Oh , yeah . But I think , do you , maybe , eh ? Did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: Yeah . professor g: how long a ? phd d: I I think it 's it 's fast , because , I have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . Eh , eh , in the in the measurement , the average , dividing by the by the , variance . phd d: the other , the the last w , meeting eh , I don't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it doesn't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: No , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . professor g: So , I I think we have to start , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , what we said before is that , phd d: Mmm , yeah . professor g: it looks like , at least that you haven't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , indicator of the overlap . professor g: I I 'm I 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . professor g: but but you don't want to keep , keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . But , the other things that we talked about is , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: Yeah . But , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , by your colleagues in Spain , phd d: Yeah . professor g: That is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , nonspeech , use some very general features . professor g: You know , have a have a couple Markov models and and , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . professor g: And let the , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . professor g: I I , I think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . professor g: But given the limitation in time and given the fact that Javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: Yeah . professor g: but , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: Yeah . phd d: I I I think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , Thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: Yeah . phd d: And I hope the the next week I will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . phd d: And , nnn , nnn professor g: Ha - h have you ever looked at the , Javier 's , speech segmenter ? phd c: No . professor g: Cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . professor g: But if you included , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: Yeah , but I 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector I I I used up to now , phd d: Mmm , yeah . grad a: I think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: That 's right . But I think Javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . professor g: N n grad a: It doesn't have the same Gaus - , H M M modeling , phd c: Yeah . grad a: But , professor g: Well , it 's sort of has a simple one . grad a: Does it ? professor g: Right ? It 's it 's just it 's just a isn't it just a Gaussian phd d: Yeah . Oh , it doesn't have it doesn't have any temporal , ? grad a: Maybe I 'm misremembering , but I did not think it had a Markov professor g: I thought it Yeah . phd d: No , Javier di doesn't worked with , a Markov grad a: Yeah , I didn't think so . So he 's just he just computes a Gaussian over potential grad a: Yep . professor g: And and grad a: It 's just , that i it he has the two - pass issue that What he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . And that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . grad a: And right now he 's doing that with silence and that doesn't work with the Meeting Recorder . professor g: The other thing one could do is Couldn't , it 's So you have two categories phd c: Yeah . Couldn't you have a third category ? So you have , you have , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: He has this on his board actually . Don't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: Right ? And then you have a Markov model for each ? phd c: I 'm not sure . But it 's not too easy , I think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system I have now . professor g: the th the reason why , I was suggesting originally that we look at features is because I thought , well , we 're doing something we haven't done before , phd c: Yeah . professor g: It seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: Yeah . professor g: and , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: I had the impression . professor g: and , there should overall be a , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . professor g: So far , Jose has has been By the way , I was told I should be calling you Pepe , but phd d: Yeah . professor g: the has has , been exploring , e largely the energy issue and , as with a lot of things , it is not , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . professor g: And then there 's , you know Is it energy ? Is it log energy ? Is it LPC residual energy ? Is it is it is it , delta of those things ? , what is it no Obviously , just a simple number absolute number isn't gonna work . So it should be with compared to what ? Should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: Yeah . professor g: Or , you know , how b short should they be ? So , phd d: . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . professor g: So I I still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . professor g: So pitch - related and harmonic - related , I 'm I 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . professor g: But it seems like if we just wanna get something to work , phd c: Yeah . professor g: that , their suggestion of of Th - they were suggesting going to Markov models , but in addition there 's an expansion of what Javier did . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: Yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , Eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: But , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the Javier software ? Eh , the , the , the BIC criterion , the the t to train the the Gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . , eh , I I I think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step , the the classifier what were the classifier from Javier or classifier from Thilo ? W What happen with the second step ? I , what what happen with the , eh the , clu the , the clu the clustering process ? grad a: grad a: What do you mean ? phd d: I , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? Because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step doesn't work well , eh , we have another problem . I had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: N grad a: and it worked pretty well , but I haven't worked with it a lot . So what I d I d I took a hand - segmented sample phd d: Nnn , yeah . grad a: and I added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: Yeah . But is is if grad a: But this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: But it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: Right . So if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to Javier 's and it doesn't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and Gaussian grad a: Yeah . Y do you know where his software is ? Have you used it at all ? phd d: I yeah have <doc-sep>grad d: I tried to go for the EE Cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: Three three six zero zero . grad a: You ever seen " So I married an axe murderer " ? grad c: parts of it . grad a: There 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in San Francisco , and he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like " excuse me I ordered the large espresso ? " grad d: . grad a: Wait do are y So you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: No ? . There was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: Ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: Seems like Seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . Well , I was thinking if y you guys have plans for Sunday ? We 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this Sunday , but we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . grad a: Well , I 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , I 'll be out of town . grad d: So you 're going to the west Bay then ? No , grad a: No , the South Bay , grad d: south Bay ? grad a: yeah . Wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: They are gonna get more comfortable headsets . I actually , even though Liz was kind enough to offer to be the first subject , I sort of felt that she knew too much , so I asked Litonya . grad d: So , this is what she saw as part of as for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . , that was really difficult for her and grad c: Because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: The names and this was the first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and then of course the system broke down , and those were the l I should say the system was supposed to break down and then these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human . And now comes the This is the phone - in phase of grad c: Wait , can I I have a question . So there 's no system , right ? Like , there was a wizard for both both parts , is this right ? grad d: Yeah . grad d: One time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . Isn't this kind of obvious when it says " OK now you 're talking to a human " and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: No no no . And the wizard sometimes will not be audible , Because she was actually they there was some lapse in the wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: Is she mispronouncing " Anlage " ? Is it " Anlaga " or " Anlunga " grad d: They 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: OK . Well , if we we professor b: So , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: There was a strange reflex . , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gonna not they 're subjects are probably not gonna going to follow the order . professor b: S so if you just number them " one " , " two " , " three " it 's grad d: Yeah , and make it sort of clear in the professor b: OK . That is something that Fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . grad d: And , another suggestion , by Liz , was that we , through subjects , switch the tasks . So when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we haven't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we don't tell the person " ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah " they still try , or at least Litonya tried to repeat as much of that text as possible . grad d: And my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because I think she did a wonderful job , professor b: Great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , " How much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer " so this is gonna happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . grad a: I wasn't wasn't sure whether wizard was the correct term for " not a man " . grad c: There 's no female equivalent of grad d: But grad a: Are you sure ? grad c: No , I don't know . grad d: Well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: Yeah , that 's so @ @ . grad c: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking , but grad d: and professor b: Right . And So , some some work needs to be done , but I think we can And this , and in case no you hadn't seen it , this is what Litonya looked at during the while taking the while partaking in the data collection . , do you know exactly how to do that , or is Lila , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: I 'm completely clueless , but I 'm willing to learn . So anyway , grad d: N professor b: So why don't you ask Lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: Student - type worker , professor b: Well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . professor b: So i if Yeah , I agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was , more , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than I would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: This is sort of what I gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: Yeah . grad d: and I didn't even spell it out here and in some cases I I spelled it out a little bit more thoroughly , professor b: Right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and , so i if we give her even more , instruments to work with I think the results are gonna be even better . professor b: Oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . And also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . professor b: And , she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so I think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gonna need to know , to do her career . professor b: So , I my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . grad d: And I told her that we gonna figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . She also agrees that you know if it 's all just gonna be students the data is gonna be less valuable because of that so . professor b: Well , as I say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: We 're already Yeah . professor b: grad d: However , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . We could talk to the people who run it and see if they have a way that they could easily tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: Now , I signed us up for the Wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . professor b: So , my idea on that was , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly I did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: Yep . So my idea on on Wednesday is partly to you , what you did today would i is just fine . You just do " this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . " But then , the other thing of course is we should give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . So , I don't I don't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . I don't think you should you don't have to make any new PowerPoint or anything . The other two things is we 've can have Johno tell us a little about this professor b: Great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , M - three - L enhancement , and then that was it , I think . grad a: So , what I did for this this is , a pedagogical belief - net because I was I I took I tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what I did was I took I made these dummy nodes called Trajector - In and Trajector - Out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . And then I did similar things for our our net to with the context and the discourse and whatnot , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . Let 's go Slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: Yeah , there 's just one more node and it says " Mode " which is the decision between the grad d: Yeah . grad a: So basically all I did was I took the last belief - net professor b: So grad a: and I grouped things according to what how I thought they would fit in to image schemas that would be related . And the two that I came up with were Trajector - landmark and then Source - path - goal as initial ones . grad a: And then I said well , the trajector would be the person in this case probably . grad a: you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: Right . And then in terms of the source , the things the only things that we had on there I believe were whether Oh actually , I kind of , I might have added these cuz I don't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but whether the where I 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: And " usefulness " is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . " Travel constraints " would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wanna take a bus or something like that , right ? And then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . Similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . , and then if you go up , Robert , Yeah , so , in terms of Context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . , Discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . grad a: Prosody I don't really I 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so I just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . grad a: the Parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said " I need to get there quickly " or whatever . grad a: And , in terms of World Knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: What 's " tourbook " ? grad a: Tourbook ? That would be , I don't know , the " landmark - iness " of things , grad d: So let me see if I can ask grad a: Well , this is not a working Bayes - net . No , I understand that , but but So , what Let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and Oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . So , you could imagine w , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: I I 'd No , I was gonna wait until professor b: Oh , OK . So , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real Bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f , fill it @ @ in , then grad a: So we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the Mode . And and Bhaskara and I was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge , combinatoric input to the Mode thing . And grad a: Well I oh yeah , I unders I understand that , I just it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . Let me just mention something that I don't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , I I slipped a paper to Bhaskara and about Noisy - OR 's and Noisy - MAXes and there 're ways to sort of back off on the purity of your Bayes - net - edness . If you co you could ima and I now I don't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: So it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that OK . grad a: So in that case , the sum we 'd have we , these wouldn't be the summary nodes . We 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were I guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: Yeah . professor b: So what I was gonna say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . So , if you have some bottom line decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . professor b: And the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you don't get this combinatorics . So that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , OK ? then you could say " Aha , let 's have these three factors " , OK ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . professor b: And then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . So that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: OK . professor b: given that we 're not gonna screw with the technology and just always use sort of orthodox Bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . and grad a: So what I kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: " Eh - eh - eh . , so , Robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . professor b: and , I understand where this the this is a way of playing with this abs Source - path - goal trajector exp abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . professor b: I don't think our friends on Wednesday are going to be able to Well , maybe they will . This is sort of th the second version and I I I look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , UML diagram or , you know , as just a screen shot , not really as a Bayes - net as John Johno said . grad a: We could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . But the the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: Alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and professor b: and see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of a module , if you wanna call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll throw the dice for you , throw the die for you , because I integrated this into the existing SmartKom system in in the same way as much the same way we can sort of have this this thing . So if this is what M - three - L will look like and what it 'll give us , And a very simple thing . We have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . grad d: And this these this changed now only , It 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is " Approach " and could be , you know , more refined in many ways . grad d: Or we can have something where the goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type " Enter " . So this is just based on this one , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . And so in the f if this pla if the object type here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be " Vista " . And this is about as much as we can do if we don't w if we want to avoid a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify " OK , if it 's this and this but that is not the case " , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . You 're you 're grad d: ? professor b: It was much too quick for me . So , I I do understand that you can take the M - three - L and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about object types and stuff , and what I think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say " If it 's of type " Landmark " , then you take you 're gonna take a picture of it . Ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: Every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . grad d: W professor b: that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing " OK , here 's a another kind of minimal way of tackling this " . Add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , " pppt ! " You do that . , then the question would be Now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , OK ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: ? professor b: Right ? So we don't we don't use the discourse , we don't use the context , we don't do any of those things . professor b: Alright , but that 's but that 's OK , and it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . And that 's something the SmartKom people themselves would they 'd say " Sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont " Right ? grad d: Yeah . And this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , we have this this silly interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . grad d: Now , the content I whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the Vista , Schema , Source , Path , Goal , whatever . grad d: This will be a job to find ways of writing down Image schema , X - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called " Constructicon " . And and here is exactly where what 's gonna be replaced with our Bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . This decides whether it 's an whether action the the Enter , the Vista , or the whatever professor b: " approach " , you called it , I think this time . This is so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic like parameters for the for the X - schema ? professor b: For for for Yes . So that that i if you had the generalized " Go " X - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . professor b: And then , although we haven't worried about this yet , you might wanna worry about something that would go to the GIS and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . professor b: But , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: So the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: Aspects of the X - schema to add . professor b: Yeah , so the pro The immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . professor b: You know , what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: Right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: The harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gonna get it ? And that the the that 's the hardest problem . So , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . The h So , I think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: OK . , and that 's so , getting back to here , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we don't want all the com grad a: There 's just too many factors right now . professor b: So we wanna think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: So what we really wanna do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wanna b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: Right . , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . So instead of in instead it should really be just be " intention " as a node instead of " intention business " or " intention tour " . professor b: OK ? So you Yeah , right , and then it would have values , " Tour " , " Business " , or " Hurried " . professor b: But then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wanna break this up , what really matters . grad a: I think what was going through my mind when I did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: Well , you you could do that . And it 's perfectly OK to insist that that , you know , th , they add up to one , but that there 's that that it doesn't have to be one zero zero . So you could have the conditional p So the each of these things is gonna be a a a probability . So whenever there 's a choice , so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: Well , see I don't think those would be mutually professor b: OK grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: Absolutely right . professor b: And so that you might want to then have those b Th - Then they may have to be separate . professor b: So that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . It 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward toward where we wanna go . grad d: Also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a , a specification for some interface , here that takes the normal M - three - L , looks at it . Then we discussed in our pre - edu EDU meeting how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so we we may wanna decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . But this information is just M - three - L , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the GRS , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history some s some stuff . Based on we we have I was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , " were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? " , professor b: grad d: " were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? " , grad c: Right . So this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: Yeah . grad d: and then professor b: There will be rules , but they aren't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . So they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that " Agent " , yeah , " Agent " , whatever you wan wanna say , yeah , that is rule - driven , and can can can do things like that . And there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and carries out the decision , so it probably will . My guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s more another vector , OK , which can then be applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . So on once you pull that out , it could be that that says " Ah ! Now that we know that we gonna go ask the ontology something else . " OK ? Now that we know that it 's a bus trip , OK ? we didn't We didn't need to know beforehand , how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we gotta go find out more . So this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is , and , I had one more thing , the it needs to do Yeah . I think we I I can come up with a a code for a module that we call the " cognitive dispatcher " , which does nothing , professor b: OK . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . So maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and get this part , professor b: Oh , OK . In particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . What you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . And that there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you don't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . grad d: There 're no primitives upon which professor b: u u What are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: So I y I 'm just just there saying eee well you I know how to do any individual case , right ? but I don't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use deep cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . professor b: grad d: Maybe we sho should we a add then the " what 's this ? " domain ? N , we have to " how do I get to X " . Then we also have the " what 's this ? " domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: Could . grad d: Johno , actually , does not allow us to call them " intentions " anymore . professor b: Well , I I don't like the term either , so I have n i i i y w i i It grad d: But , I 'm sure the " what 's this ? " questions also create some interesting X - schema aspects . I 'm not a I 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: So . professor b: I 'm just saying that I 'm gonna hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . Well , no the Bayes the Bayes - nets The Bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . But what I 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different Bayes - nets , be the general . So that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you shouldn't have to do that differently for going to something , than for circling it , for telling someone else how to go there , grad d: Getting out of professor b: whatever it is . So that that , the the decision processes are gonna be different What you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . So all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . And pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with SmartKom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's something about the intent you know , the actual what people wanna do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gonna use in a general way . You might be able to to say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's Let 's say there 's a cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . So just from this local construction you know that you 're gonna hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . So if you say " how do I get into the castle " OK , then Or , you know , " what is there in the castle " or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . professor b: Alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: professor b: grad d: It 's unfortunate also that English has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . professor b: Well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: Yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . grad d: Parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . Oh yeah , b But an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever belief - net , or " X " that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . So , are we gonna be meeting here from now on ? I 'm I 'm happy to do that . We we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: so far I think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: Oh yeah . No I I think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wanna look at . grad d: Yeah ? The , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: Right . grad d: and also the the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: Right . Yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l No , it was great . grad d: So I think that , w Looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . grad d: and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence " How do you get there ? " was pretty standard . Nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: Right . , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: Yeah <doc-sep>professor c: so you get to phd d: Yeah , I will try to explain the thing that I did this this week during this week . phd d: Well eh you know that I work I begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd d: What I trying two MLP to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature from the eh bus base system phd e: The the mel cepstrum ? phd d: No , satly the mes the Mel Cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd d: And I 'm trying two MLP , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: And I tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the MLP with the three output . professor c: What what feeds the the three - output net ? phd d: Voice , unvoice , and si professor c: No no , what feeds it ? What features does it see ? phd d: The feature the input ? The inputs are the fifteen the fifteen bases feature . And the other three features are R , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is R - zero professor c: professor c: You wouldn't do like R - one over R - zero or something like that ? usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: Yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like R - one ov over R - zero or something like that . phd d: Auto - correlation ? Yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: Ye - Well that 's the variance , but if you just say " what is " , to first order , yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . phd d: Yeah , I I 'll The spectral shape , professor c: Yeah , and so R - one over R - zero is what you typically use for that . No , I don't use that I can't use professor c: No , I 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . professor c: See , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you " does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that " . professor c: So if it 's if it 's if it 's low energy but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . professor c: but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . professor c: So if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like R - one over R - zero , and R - zero phd d: - , OK . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like zero crossing counts . , phd d: Bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: Right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original FFT and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take on it . Then in that case , if you have two nets , Alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . professor c: So phd d: No phd e: So you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w W well that 's another way . professor c: That wasn't what I was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . No I was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: Mmm . professor c: And what I was saying is that the only thing I think that it buys you is based on whether you feed it something different . And so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something ab something about the difference between the the log FFT log power and the log magnitude F F - spectrum and the filter bank . professor c: And so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying So the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . professor c: Right ? maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but I think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that you wanna get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . What about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: Ah I 'm sorry . professor c: This is f You have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . professor c: What if you stopped being clever ? And you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and that 's what they 're good at . professor c: So you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: professor c: Then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and you might get something better . phd e: So so don't don't do the division , but let the net have everything . , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . professor c: you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . But , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . phd e: How long does it take , Carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: Oh , not too much . grad a: What are what are your f frame error rates for for this ? phd d: Eh fifty - f six no , the frame error rate ? grad a: O phd d: Fifty - six I think . grad a: Fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: The accuracy . No for , yes f I don't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: Oh , OK . phd d: But I think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . phd d: That I look in the with the other nnn the other MLP that we have are more or less the same number . professor c: I think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for reduced band width stuff . phd d: I think that I I I think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: Yeah , yeah , yeah . If you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: Well I don't know , but I th I I think that we I have the result more or less . I don't I 'm not sure but I remember @ @ that I can't show that . professor c: OK , but that 's a That is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: Yeah . professor c: OK ? Given this this regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . But phd e: The targets for the neural net , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: no . Well there 's gonna be it looks like there 's gonna be a noisy some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . phd e: Oh ! professor c: Yeah , so the , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . And one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: When are they planning When would they do that ? professor c: Mmm , I think late I think in the summer sometime . phd d: and also mmm I H Hynek last week say that if I have time I can to begin to to study well seriously the France Telecom proposal professor c: phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: Look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and I begin to to work also in that . But the first thing that I don't understand is that they are using R - the log energy that this quite I don't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . professor c: Oh , at the front it says " log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two " phd d: This Yeah . professor c: Well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is I I have no idea . phd e: Is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking , but but , then there 's the sixty - four , I don't know . phd d: Because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: Experimental results . phd d: I don't know exactly , because well th I thought maybe they have a meaning . phd e: So they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . If we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu I don't know . Well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is It may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: Yeah , the e The effect I don't @ @ I can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: Well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gonna be the natural log of one , which is zero . professor c: So it 'll go down to to the natural log being So the lowest value for this would be zero . I I will look to try if I move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is Maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: I don't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: Yeah , I was just gonna say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: Yeah . I think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: Well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: Yeah . I think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , I don't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: OK , and wh when did Stephane take off ? He took off phd d: I think that Stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: Oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to Salt Lake City . I I don't know if there are many people who are going to ICASSP phd d: Yeah . phd e: Do have Have people sort of stopped going to ICASSP in recent years ? professor c: people are less consistent about going to ICASSP and I think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . , it 's I think for engineering students of any kind , I think it 's it 's if you haven't been there much , it 's good to go to , to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . But I think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , I think that ICSLP and Eurospeech are much more targeted . And then there 's these other meetings , like HLT and and ASRU phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to computational speech processing of one sort or another . So Wanna talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: Oh ! Yeah . I I guess some of the progress , I I 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . And so far I have Morgan and Hynek , Mike Jordan , and I asked John Ohala and he agreed . Then I talked a little bit about continuing with these dynamic ev acoustic events , and we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of dynamic events . , completeness in the in the sense that if we if we pick these X number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gonna try to recognize later on . And so Morgan and I were discussing s s a form of a cheating experiment where we get we have a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid system to do phone recognition on TIMIT . So i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using these set of acoustic events , then that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in TIMIT . so i it would be a a measure of " are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events " . And also , just working on my final project for Jordan 's class , which is professor c: Actually , let me grad a: Yeah . The the other thing I was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just Say , if you had ten ten events , that you were counting , each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the occ count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . And then just use that in a very simple and you could do phone recognition then and wouldn't have any of the issues of the training of the net or , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: professor c: you know , if the example I was giving was that if if you had onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . So If you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient set of events to to do the kind of level of of classification of phones that you 'd like . And then the other thing that we were discussing was was OK , how do you get the your training data . professor c: Cuz the Switchboard transcription project you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with TIMIT training . So , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is to automatically translate the current TIMIT markings into the markings you want . And it won't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe aren't there from these automatic markings , phd e: professor c: but but it 's phd e: It 's probably a good place to start . professor c: Yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to determine the phones . phd e: Yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: Right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: my my guess would be that this is since TIMIT 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: professor c: And the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wanna see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information doesn't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . professor c: you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , I think . I think it 's just a phd e: Unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: Yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: Yeah . The idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . professor c: OK , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: Oh . grad a: So for my class project I 'm I 'm tinkering with support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and basically just another method for doing classification . And so I 'm gonna apply that to compare it with the results by King and Taylor who did these using recurrent neural nets , they recognized a set of phonological features and made a mapping from the MFCC 's to these phonological features , so I 'm gonna do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: So what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? What grad a: . grad a: and so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . grad a: and professor c: I guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they grad a: Yeah . phd e: Does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: . So , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , between these two different classes , phd e: grad a: and and so , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: So , given these these features , or or these these examples , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then given a new example , if the new example falls away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: Oh . phd e: So why save the examples ? Why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: professor c: You know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: professor c: right ? , i i if is it eh w When is nearest - neighbor good ? Well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . So a long time ago people talked about things where you would have a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out some representative examples which would be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . professor c: I I think s I think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . So rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: Yeah . professor c: And th the You know , neural net approach or Gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and if you have only a modest amount of data , you have trouble learning them . , so I I guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to be somewhat better in that regard . I it can be a a reduced parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . professor c: But I don't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . grad b: S do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: Actually you don't get a you don't get a nice number between zero and one . , there are there are pap Well , basically , it 's it 's you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is is translated to a zero or one . professor c: But that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: That 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: And you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: You have the distances to work with , professor c: Cuz actually Mississippi State people did use support vector machines for speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . Yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple sigmoidal function . professor c: Yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: Yeah , professor c: And didn't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? Oh it i Oh , so it is a sigmoidal . phd e: Did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: they 're OK , I I don't I don't think they were earth earth shattering , but I think that this was a couple years ago , phd e: . professor c: I remember them doing it at some meeting , and and I don't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: . grad b: s So Barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: Oh I 'm not do I 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . grad a: So for example , this this feature set called the sound patterns of English is just a bunch of binary valued features . Let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . phd e: Did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: Oh ! I haven't gone through the entire table , yet . Yeah , yesterday I brought Chuck the table and I was like , " wait , this is Is the mapping from N to to this phonological feature called " coronal " , is is should it be shouldn't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? " So I ha haven't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: - huh . grad a: but professor c: But a as I was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: OK . professor c: and and we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . professor c: There 's you have you have the paper , right ? The Mississippi State paper ? grad a: professor c: Yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: And OK . grad a: yeah , our phd e: So in your in in the thing that you 're doing , you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: phd e: Is that what you 're grad a: Right , Right , right f so for every phone there is there is a a vector of ones and zeros f corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . And so when you do your wh I 'm what is the task for the class project ? To come up with the phones ? grad a: phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: Oh . Right , to come up with a mapping from MFCC 's or s some feature set , to w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . grad a: And yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the MFCC 's to phonological features . C phd e: I guess , I 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . Do you get out a a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: Just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . grad a: and cuz the So King and and Taylor did this with recurrent neural nets , phd e: Yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from MFCC 's to phonological features phd e: grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then map that to phones . grad a: So I 'm I 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . I wo did they compare that , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . phd e: So you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . phd e: professor c: That 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . professor c: So have you had a chance to do this thing we talked about yet with the phd e: Insertion penalty ? professor c: . No actually I was going a different That 's a good question , too , but I was gonna ask about the the changes to the data in comparing PLP and mel cepstrum for the SRI system . Well what I 've been " Changes to the data " , I 'm not sure I professor c: Right . So we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: Yeah . And I was asking if you were going to do redo it for PLP with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: What I 've been doing is trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: Yeah , I agree , but I thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and Yeah , but I don't I 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: Yeah , I guess I don't think that the normalization difference is gonna account for everything . phd e: So what I was working on is just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script wasn't catching . phd e: Which would you know cause it to perform OK , but , you know , the the models would be all messed up . So I was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that I was computing the features . phd e: Looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight K , what I was assuming they were , professor c: Yeah . So I was doing that first , before I did these other things , just to make sure there wasn't something professor c: Although really , a couple three percent difference in word error rate could easily come from some difference in normalization , I would think . But phd e: Yeah , and I think , hhh I 'm trying to remember but I think I recall that Andreas was saying that he was gonna run sort of the reverse experiment . which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . professor c: Yeah , he 's probably off at at his meeting now , phd e: Yeah , he 's gone now . But yeah phd e: But professor c: the I sh think they should be roughly equivalent , again the Cambridge folk found the PLP actually to be a little better . professor c: the other thing I wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: Yeah see one thing that 's a little bit I was looking I 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that Andreas created . And his the way that the S R I system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . phd e: And , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that I can go look at and compare to the PLP ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . phd e: But it looked like he had to give it even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it a front - end parameter file . Which talks about the kind of com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: - huh . phd e: so i I I don't know if that it probably doesn't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . I 've been , I 've been working with Jeremy on his project and then I 've been trying to track down this bug in the ICSI front - end features . phd e: So one thing that I did notice , yesterday I was studying the the RASTA code professor c: - huh . phd e: and it looks like we don't have any way to control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . We basically it looks to me like we do the FFT , and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . We don't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , " only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty " . professor c: Yeah , I don't think it 's in there , I think it 's in the the filters . So , the F F T is on everything , but the filters , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . And what it does is it it copies phd e: The the filters ? Which filters ? professor c: The filter bank which is created by integrating over F F T bins . Yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it it actually copies the the second filters over to the first . So the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of features different number of filters , I think , as I recall . So you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever you specify , the last ones are gonna be ignored . Y you can't do it without I think changing the number of filters , but phd e: I saw something about that looked like it was doing something like that , but I didn't quite understand it . So maybe professor c: Yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest highest frequencies are kind of junk . professor c: And so you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . professor c: And and so if you h phd e: But so the but that 's a fixed thing ? professor c: Yeah , I think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: There 's nothing that lets you professor c: But see see my point ? If you had If you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . professor c: And if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . professor c: I don't remember there being an independent way of saying " we 're just gonna make them from here to here " . professor c: But I I I don't know , it 's actually been awhile since I 've looked at it . phd e: Yeah , I went through the Feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the RASTA libs and thing like that . And I didn't I couldn't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . But I didn't quite understand everything that I saw , professor c: Yeah , see I don't know Feacalc at all . I guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but I think that in general it 's not that critical . professor c: You can You can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: Another thing I was thinking about was is there a I was wondering if there 's maybe certain settings of the parameters when you compute PLP which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . So that , in effect , what I could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: Well , it 's not precisely . professor c: what you can do is you can definitely change the the filter bank from being a trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: professor c: And some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . But the fundamental difference , there 's other small differences phd e: There 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: Yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the P L P i , I think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral , from cepstral truncation . professor c: and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like Broadcast News and so on , that 's why c Cambridge switched to PLP I think . professor c: So That 's a difference that I don't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that it they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . phd e: Yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . phd e: You know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a So I started going through and looking One of the things that I did notice was that the log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the PLP data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the PLP features . professor c: Oh - huh ! phd e: So , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , I was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: Oh ! He he He used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: Yeah . phd e: Yeah , professor c: I would think that you might wanna do something like you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . Well , what I was gonna do is I was gonna take a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . But you could if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r run the overall test set with a with a few different pruning thresholds for both , phd e: So . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's , you know gets very few search errors phd e: Right . , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so I I didn't think it would be that big a deal because I was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: But you may be in the wrong range for the P L P features for some reason . And the the the run time of the recognizer on the PLP features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches aren't as good . I guess this was a little bit off topic , I guess , because I was I was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . professor c: Wanna grad b: That 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: What 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well I tried this mean subtraction method . Due to Avendano , I 'm taking s six seconds of speech , I 'm using two second FFT analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and I I take that frame and four f the four I take Sorry , I take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . And the I tried that with HDK , the Aurora setup of HDK training on clean TI - digits , and it it helped in a phony reverberation case where I just used the simulated impulse response the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to four percent . And on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel F , it went from forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: On on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: Right . grad b: And that that was trained on clean speech only , which I 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . And professor c: That 's ac actually a little side point is I think that 's the first results that we have of any sort on the far field on on the far field data for recorded in in meetings . professor c: Did he ? On the near field , on the ne grad b: On the far field also . What kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: I I 'm not sure , I think it was about five percent error for the PZM channel . , clean TI - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the SRI system on this TV broadcast type stuff , I think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: No , but wait a minute . I I I th I think he What am I saying here ? Yeah , so that was the SRI system . So So probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then use th use it for the SRI system . grad b: b You me you mean ta professor c: So you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: Yeah . professor c: and and you have something like forty - one percent error and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . So here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . It 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . professor c: So the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r Right , so so I guess this SRI system is trained on a lot of s Broadcast News or Switchboard data . grad b: Do you know which one it is ? phd e: It 's trained on a lot of different things . It 's trained on a lot of Switchboard , Call Home , grad b: - huh . phd e: a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: O one thing I 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method will do if it 's faced with additive noise . Cuz I I it 's cuz I don't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gonna do to additive noise . professor c: Yeah , grad b: That 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: - huh . So grad b: OK , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the SRI system and professor c: Yeah , as helpful , so that 's the question . Yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that isn't isn't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: - huh . professor c: and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . I think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is digit strings is not you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to sort of laboratory grad b: professor c: you know , if you 're doing a a sixteen digit credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . So I don't think I can do the digits , but , I guess I 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: yeah

Support vector machines were found to be more effective in handling smaller amounts of data, making them suitable for learning patterns in MFCC with minimal effort. These machines work by identifying an optimal separating plane, which is more efficient compared to the computationally expensive k-means clustering method. The team expressed concerns about the potential combinatorial input that would arise from different linguistic and contextual schemas when using the Bayes net. To address this, the Professor suggested narrowing down the decision variables by studying the trade-offs between different input factors. One idea proposed by the team was to limit the types of objects in the environment to a small subset and establish rules governing actions related to those objects. Speaker mn014 conducted training to enable the system to distinguish between speech from loud and quiet speakers. This pre-segmentation modification allows for the specification of desired minimum lengths for speech and silence portions, as well as facilitating the identification of pauses and utterance boundaries.

Summarize the team's discussion on support vector machines, controlling the size of combinatorial input, and volume variation.

project manager: You all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: It's project manager: Or you got the same message ? marketing: Yeah I I just saw it one minute ago . Yeah I received an email so I thought I I can't mail you so I thought I'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: Yeah pretty much . industrial designer: Huh ? marketing: ? project manager: industrial designer: What the marketing: Oh right . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: Yeah my computer is not functioning properly . user interface: marketing: project manager: Did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: Yeah yeah . industrial designer: I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was gonna do and then a couple of minutes before this I get my function you know the information that I need . This presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause I hadn't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Ts marketing: there is also was also some research on the most relevant and and and irrelevant f functions . marketing: if you can't control the the sound settings if you dislike a very loud bass or something , you you need to change that . industrial designer: By the way my T_V_ doesn't have an equ equaliser but marketing: We c we c Yeah w we can't project manager: Next generation does . teletext but we can skip that because I saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it's i should not be used any more in the future . industrial designer: By the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: I thought I read a project manager: Our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: Yeah ? project manager: And the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: Below ? Okay well user interface: But where did you get that information ? project manager: That's in a newsflash . marketing: that's that's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: Okay . Yeah well we can skip this part as well , because I thought I read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because they find it very interesting . and and also there's so not only the design of the bus buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . And I think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , nice design , which does not make the remote control in your room . marketing: It's it's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . So it's the people can say , well what's that , well that's my remote control , so it's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that project manager: Yeah . marketing: Yeah so but I I don't think that's that's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . industrial designer: user interface: How do I project manager: You pressed alt F_ four ? user interface: No no no . user interface: this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . marketing: Yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . industrial designer: And we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: And the speech recognition yeah . We have to to make them very easy so for just zapping around the channels you can just push one button . user interface: But if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an an advanced option . marketing: Yeah but the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . marketing: Yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . marketing: And the and the yeah screen menu to to to to do that , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: So it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , with a clear menu . project manager: So what does the screen do ? They said they needed it but what does it do ? What do they want with the screen ? user interface: For for the advanced functions I think . marketing: Yeah well it yeah it didn't project manager: So but what did the marketing marketing: it didn't say what they want to do with the screen . marketing: Well I , my guess is it's it's pretty handy for advanced advanced functions . user interface: the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . marketing: Well you can improvise right ? project manager: which one is it ? Technical functions ? industrial designer: Yeah a little bit . user interface: project manager: You didn't put it in ? Or industrial designer: I have no idea . marketing: So we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . So I was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about remote controls . industrial designer: so I didn't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . industrial designer: I was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and I was supposed to do it like this . But yeah then the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that I had to follow , so I was trying to organise them for myself . Mean you press a button the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: And then through a transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the T_V_ project manager: Yeah decoder . industrial designer: I dunno if I'm too slow for this stuff , but project manager: Work harder . marketing: user interface: Okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . for those that didn't see yet the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for T_V_ . it should be designed for a use g group below forty , but I don't think it's w wrong if we can target the current customer group as well . And we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let's see what was it , the target group . project manager: Yeah so I think it's easy but marketing: I guess that's that's the tar yeah or male and female user interface: But it's it's also for children or just project manager: Yeah it's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . marketing: Sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . marketing: How do you mean ? project manager: So is it from sixteen to forty ? Is it from twenty to forty ? Is it from thirty ? marketing: sixteen to forty . user interface: And if we have a larger public we have yeah more options to to sell our product . industrial designer: Yeah so what we might wanna do is yeah cust I have customised the screen functions , if you know what . industrial designer: The younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . user interface: Yeah that's that's why I wanted to to make yeah two different yeah groups of functions . The the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: But all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: Na I w I should put the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: Yeah . So is you should have a menu for all the the functions you don't use regular and which are marketing: you can make a if you make a drawing . project manager: Yeah we get the marketing: Yeah well , this is basically it's industrial designer: The remote ? project manager: The remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? well usually the power button is on top I guess . user interface: Yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . So it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your thumb , also reach the middle . marketing: Okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . marketing: Okay for example if you put the screen here , it's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: You want the normal piece of paper ? And you have a pen ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah ? marketing: Like if you have like ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: marketing: So you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume project manager: And left to right . I thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . project manager: Yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: And you you have industrial designer: And marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . marketing: Then okay to confirm , and then on on each on each screen there's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . user interface: And do we need a a logo on our remote control , or marketing: That's more your your department to to to project manager: Yeah . But it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: On the left top yeah . Yeah the position of the screen is also more essential than we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . marketing: But Yeah so it should be if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . This would be industrial designer: Why did we wanna put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i project manager: No that's not s sure so industrial designer: Okay . marketing: but it's user interface: Yeah may maybe because you're industrial designer: Because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: Yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you're going to use the advanced option , you're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: But most most of the times if a if if a T_V_'s on standby people just press a channel to put it on . project manager: Yeah but then it's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: But if you if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: Yeah okay . Can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: Yeah it doesn't matter that much . So but the screen is on top ? Which functions did we have left ? this is basically numbers , volume , channel up and down . project manager: So maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and and image options right ? project manager: Yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: Like bass marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah user interface: Yeah it it's just a remote control so project manager: and they're industrial designer: Yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: Coffee ? marketing: yeah sound and then within sound I guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: Yes please . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: Yeah isn't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you're watching . industrial designer: And yeah in the functionality of the user interface: Television itself industrial designer: no no of the remote do do we want the buttons to make sound when you press them ? As a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: . marketing: most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: We we could make an option for it , but you can disable s industrial designer: Under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . marketing: Yeah but people don't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it's very hard to project manager: . project manager: And the others were in your presentation right ? So I can just copy those ? marketing: Well yeah well I guess that these were the only ones , I guess . project manager: Yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , according to the old principle . project manager: And the L_C_D_ options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared decoder yeah . marketing: Yeah with the chip and then project manager: So you You have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? So you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your T_V_ . project manager: Yeah so I've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: Yeah , autoseek . project manager: name a channel , or marketing: Well most T_V_s automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . marketing: It only has to match the the channel frequency on your T_V_ , with with the with the position on your T_V_ and and so your remote . Yeah but can you also say I want f Veronica on the channel number five or industrial designer: Help . How do you call that ? marketing: Yeah how do you call that ? ? Wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . marketing: Just browse through it and then in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . other functions ? marketing: So you most of the time if you if you swap it S let's say for example you have R_T_L_ five on on channel five . And Veronica on channel eight and you want to move Veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous the previous one . project manager: That's you're industrial designer: He only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: Yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: And how user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: And the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as I believe . project manager: marketing: Or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? To programme the channels ? project manager: No I don't think so . project manager: No that's the marketing: you you current channel and then then it just says , on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it's it's saved . It's easier , it's it's it's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: The User Interface Designer can design a menu for all these function I put them on the marketing: Yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: On the yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . marketing: So project manager: So you design the basic function menu for the L_C_D_ screen ? I think marketing: And and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th I think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: The the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and I think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the screen itself on the marketing: . industrial designer: I have to know what it has to do , so if you wanna you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , I have to integrate that in the design . user interface: But do I have to to to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? Or project manager: Yeah . user interface: Yeah ? I I'm going to make project manager: I think i that's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: Yeah we have to kind of work together . industrial designer: If if I make the the the yeah the menu like , I have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: But we're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . Y you you are going to make a list of what functions are are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: Yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: So some menus . marketing: So it's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a Nokia or like that . marketing: To go one step back you it's only two extra buttons , user interface: Yeah . W we marketing: but if it if it's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: I think we have to to group , to make two groups . the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah but they're incorporated ? Up and down is user interface: Yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: Yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that's that's not project manager: Smart ? user interface: yeah if you're if you're z zapping with your yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: And and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: Put it on top . user interface: Yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . But we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: Well user interface: F oh yeah . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: industrial designer: I think you should . So we have a a menu button and a s project manager: And to , okay and back , also . Both the L_C_D_ marketing: Should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: Yeah I'm I'm not s clear about the the extra two buttons . user interface: Okay so that that's not Yeah that Those are project manager: Those are both both user interface: multifunctional . industrial designer: Hey is it interesting for users if we put LED lights under the buttons ? So that if you press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . project manager: Light marketing: Yeah that's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . project manager: marketing: So project manager: Anything else ? marketing: Those buttons are are lit up . Should we use those two ? Them ? Or only this to to scroll ? project manager: I've marketing: And then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? Oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: Volume . industrial designer: Yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . user interface: No industrial designer: The pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: Yeah okay go ahead . marketing: Yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , is if you're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you're not already at your choice . user interface: Yeah the with with the the channel and the volume yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and I have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . user interface: But do we have to write to write down the our stuff now ? Or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: Okay . project manager: marketing: project manager: I think you can put the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'Kay . marketing: Aye Y you saved it ? Does it save automatically in the project folder ? Or project manager: Yeah . It's it's just my own map so I put everything into the project manager: Yeah yeah yeah . user interface: But you got some extra information project manager: Yeah that's in the functional design folder . marketing: industrial designer: So first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: Yeah <doc-sep> we'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you're doing , what your what your role is . I am Corinne Whiting and I will be the Marketing Expert and in each of the three phases I will have a different role . In the function design phase I will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and I'll be doing research to figure this out . In the conceptual design phase I will be dealing with trend watching and I'll be doing marketing research on the web . And then finally in the detailed design phase I will be doing product evaluation and so I will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . And the detailed design sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , things like fashions , what makes wha how we're gonna make it special . In the functional design phase I'm I'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , we'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . industrial designer: And the detailed design in the detailed design I'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , so we're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . so we've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , acquaintance which we've kinda done . of course we're a not only a electronics company but a fashion conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy and we want it to be easy to use . we've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design which basically is is the three of you . do we have any ideas of of maybe d let's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we're gonna design it and and how we're gonna do the detailing on it . project manager: So we want it to be a T_V_ remote or I do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: Oh right . But , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . user interface: I think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like I don't actually know . But is it just infra-red ? Is that standard ? project manager: I I think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: So if there's a g a way of finding it quite easily , I thought that'd be quite good quite a good feature . Ch project manager: So we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a marketing: Like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: Oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: It makes a noise , user interface: and it'd beep . project manager: there's a button on the T_V_ that you press industrial designer: . industrial designer: So user interface: Generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . user interface: I thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: Well there are of course certain restrictions , you can't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: Yeah . however one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much . industrial designer: How sturdy is it gonna be ? Do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: Okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: Yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: Yeah . project manager: then it user interface: It could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . What else it what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to be universal . It's something that we're supposed to sell for about twenty five Euros and you know , goals for profits are I think somewhere around fifty million Euros , what they wanna make on it , so . Also since we're partners of the International Remote Control Association , maybe we wanna make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: So marketing , you know , how maybe marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally appealing remote control out there . industrial designer: marketing: And maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'Kay . project manager: Do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? Maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . Some ideas ? We want it to be a b a ball , user interface: I'd I could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we'll draw up we'll draw up the ball and maybe th where the buttons are located . user interface: My original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle Maybe a hinge that'll have to be the strongest part of it . If that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . Thing is inside I think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , as few buttons inside as possible . Just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . It's looking a bit like something out of Star Wars at the moment though , to be fair . industrial designer: user interface: That was that was a sorta simple idea I had project manager: -huh . One problem you'd get with this design is the ball is a nice idea because of it's stability really , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it's a ball , it'll roll , so we'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: Yeah . The idea it didn't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: That's that's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . marketing: project manager: How would we go about making you know getting rid of our weak points ? What would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: Not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: E No no , project manager: but industrial designer: . project manager: What did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: N n marketing: project manager: You're the the Industrial Designer . industrial designer: I'm your Industrial Designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe I dunno . industrial designer: As as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between stability and design here , so . I can't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: Yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: It's not new , it's not innovative , it's you know , everybody does long remote because it's easy , user interface: Yeah . marketing: My idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: Yeah . user interface: maybe design something , that's sort of like suppose not everybody's everybody's hand's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . Because even I suppose even with the ball user interface: It still might be hard to project manager: it's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: But then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . industrial designer: if it's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . So for that there's project manager: Okay , so industrial designer: So project manager: unfortunately we've got about five minutes here to come up with our remote control idea and start rolling with it . What if we had what if we had not only say we went with the ball the ball function , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s to make it easier to hold on to . But if we're gonna make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . So if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here I guess , and then flat And then we have the problem with the hinge . So if we're flat on the bottom , it's not gonna roll away , it'll stay where we want . industrial designer: The question is also , I dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: that's true . industrial designer: It's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so I don't know if a lid is a good idea . From stabil stability point of view it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , the more we sell . We just have a ball user interface: But then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . What if we flipped it around here , so that it were Sorry , that doesn't look anything like what you had there . project manager: Course then it's it's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . industrial designer: Question is what makes those game pads functional ? W I think that's pretty much the form for full hand . project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: You know , all project manager: because it doesn't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and Batteries go weak as well , so after a while you have to point it towards the towards the equipment you wanna control with it , right ? So , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: Is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? So that either way you're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: of course it'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it'll it'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: True . industrial designer: but it's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: Put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you don't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . user interface: Even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , isn't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . user interface: and there's your s you kn you know which way you're gonna pointing it . project manager: Okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some Are good ideas , what are not . user interface: Does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: Obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , I think <doc-sep>Hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting for our new product that we're gonna be designing . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , or how about I just click ? Okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . tool training , we're going to , I guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . we're gonna make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . We're gonna make a new remote control that's original , trendy and also user-friendly . And how we are going to do it is each of us is going to We're gonna have discuss the functional design first , how is it gonna be used , what's the actual goal here , it has to operate T_V_ , blah blah blah . And then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . And the whiteboard thing , do you guys wanna give that a try even though the ink wasn't working or do you wanna do it on here . industrial designer: I think we should forgo the whiteboard since we can't actually see what we're writing . user interface: project manager: right now so we're all gonna draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: I draw like I'm in grade five . user interface: marketing: It's pretty cool , and they've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that's okay . industrial designer: I love cats because they're independent , they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: I had a roommate who was allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: Yeah , yeah , if you're around them for a long period of time project manager: it's weird . project manager: Why a badger ? user interface: I dunno , they're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: Are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: Well , a little bit like the Yes . project manager: No , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . I don't know even much about giraffes , but I just love the way they look . marketing: You don't really have to , if you like 'em project manager: Yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . user interface: project manager: the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five Euro , and our profit aim is fifty million Euro . We're going to make this an international product marketed in the States , in Europe , in Asia . Expe our experiences with remote controls , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . You wanna start us off ? Anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: Well , we wanna make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: Right . user interface: And everything being Wait , we have what , sound system , T_V_ , D_V_D_ , V_H_S_ , TiVo ? marketing: Right . user interface: if po if we're gonna do it marketing: It needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . Esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , D_V_D_ player , say , usually it doesn't work if it's not one of the user interface: Or if it's not like a Sony , if it's like a I don't know . industrial designer: So we'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . marketing: And what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . 'Kay , and another thing that I think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . If it's just flat and kind of boring th those don't Nobody wants to buy those any more . industrial designer: What about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: What kinda battery would we want to use ? Because battery changing is usually user interface: D Double A_ . project manager: Do some of them use triple A_s though ? marketing: Yeah some use triple A_s . user interface: Some but marketing: So double or triple ? user interface: Yeah , I guess then it's If we need to do triple A_ we can , but most people usually have double A_s around . project manager: Here we can marketing: Yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we'd probably wanna go with a triple A_ . But industrial designer: Can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it's okay , we don't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . the I_D_ , which is who ? Okay , you're going to think about the working design . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . project manager: And you're gonna get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while <doc-sep>As you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , become acquainted with each other , have a little training on tools , create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . Okay , so we'll have a functional design individual work with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . Kate , why don't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , I guess industrial designer: yeah , if I can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: And while you're doing that we'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we're all gonna have to be able to walk around . project manager: industrial designer: Do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? project manager: I do not think so , user interface: Are we all gonna draw a cat ? project manager: I think it's just to try out the whiteboard . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: You can tell it's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . And the characteristics ? industrial designer: the favourite characteristics of the cat the whiskers I think , because they're the easiest to draw . Kate ? industrial designer: user interface: And they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you're doing your homework . industrial designer: Gosh , user interface: A shark ? industrial designer: why didn't I think of fish ? That's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: I like them because they're sleek project manager: Favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n swim in groups , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: marketing: Do you have a favourite one ? project manager: I'm afraid I'm with Steph . But I'm afraid I take the coward's way out , and the cat's looking the other way . Now we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold we're to sell it for twenty five Euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros . would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . Now if they cost twelve and a half , you're selling it for twenty five , you're making twelve and a half Euros each . and we're to make a profit of fifty million , that's t can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: yeah . I was just wondering if that's the If fifty percent is normal project manager: Mark-up ? marketing: B yeah . project manager: marketing: And and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: Yes , 'cause our market is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you gotta know how many we're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . Yeah , that's project manager: To give you a pretty good idea of where you're looking . In order to make fifty million Euros , and you're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: And if we make Any of you use of remote control for a television or D_V_D_ or something ? You're both nodding , industrial designer: That that that's the sorta product we're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a T_V_s and marketing: Yeah . Well I've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but I also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: It is true that you always sit around you know , you're sitting on your sofa and you wanna change something , there's five different remotes , and one for the D_V_D_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . marketing: project manager: Are there any ideas for the remote ? What would it be for and what group would be be for ? We have to think about that one . Like I've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: Yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there's a lotta buttons that I've got no idea what they do , like . marketing: because I think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it's like an volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . We don't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have channel up channel down . project manager: but the I think that's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: . project manager: And user , that's you S Steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . I think there's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and I think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but I think we all have to like each other to get this done . as it says , we're gonna get individual instructions , but I don't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so I think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . then I don't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things

The User Interface team suggested simplifying the technical functions of the remote control and removing unnecessary features, while also proposing a Hello Kitty theme and bright colors. They also proposed designing a fashionable and modern spherical remote controller with reduced buttons and hinged parts. The Marketing team suggested a keyboard-shaped remote control with a user-friendly handle, and the Project Manager further suggested a joystick keyboard. In the design of the spherical remote control, a hinge was used to connect the middle part and a light sensor was incorporated to minimize buttons. The Project Manager suggested adding a handle for stability, but this compromised the spherical design. In the design of the joystick keyboard, Marketing proposed using hinges for portability, and the Industrial Designer suggested adding a round shape under the keyboard for user-friendliness. The Project Designer proposed adding sensors on both sides for convenience. The aspects discussed included compatibility, ergonomics, and battery type. The remote control needed to be compatible with various devices and come with a detailed instruction booklet. The design of the remote's look and curvature was also important. The team decided to postpone addressing the battery issue. According to Marketing, the target market for the remote control was below forty years old, and User Interface suggested adding an extra function to hide features and display a clear menu, while also incorporating fashionable functions. The group acknowledged the challenge of balancing functionality and fashion.

Summarize the group's discussion on the design, appearance, function, and target users of the remote control, including the possible detailed designings and the initial ideas raised.

and I like to show you the agenda for the meeting , I don't know if it was sent round to all of you . project manager: this is the the plan for today's meeting is firstly just to introduce the project briefly , although I'm sure you've actually got some of the information already . project manager: then we want to practice using some of the tools that we'll be using during the the course of the design project and the meetings , specifically the whiteboard over there . then we need to go through the specifics of our project plan and discuss come up with some preliminary ideas about it . we want it to be something original , something trendy and also something user friendly , so it has to be quite intuitive that people are able to use this product . The method that we're going to use to complete the project , that has three components as such . We're going the way we'll do that I think is to to work individually initially and then come together for meetings to to work on that . similarly with the conceptual design , we'll start off by working individually with our own expertise on our own laptops and then we'll bring what we've done together . industrial designer: I'm a bit confused about what's the difference between the functional design and conceptual design ? i is it just more detail , as I understand it ? project manager: I think it th w we're talking the the functional design is more your area of things where you'll be we want to look at what functions we need in the remote control industrial designer: Right . project manager: and what what specific things it it has to do industrial designer: project manager: but the conceptual design is perhaps bigger than that and includes the how people are going to use it and and that kind of thing . So whe where do we identify the components of our product ? I think it's it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the components of our product ? project manager: I think we'll we'll start that initially with the functional design already but then industrial designer: Okay . what I'd like us to do now is simultaneously introduce ourselves and start using some of the tools that we're using for for the project , specifically the whiteboard . project manager: So each person in turn , I'd like us to go up to the whiteboard , the pen's just underneath it there and draw your favourite animal and then tell everyone what the f your favourite characteristics of that animal are and while you're doing that tell us your name , what your role is and perhaps how your animal relates to the role that you're taking in this project . industrial designer: marketing: Why are you looking at me ? user interface: marketing: project manager: Would you like to go first ? marketing: Do I have a choice ? industrial designer: marketing: Okay . marketing: So , my name's Cat and I'm really not very good at this whole drawing malarkey industrial designer: project manager: marketing: so user interface: marketing: Okay . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Yeah , I don't think it's furry enough , so we'll make it a fluffy rabbit . industrial designer: marketing: okay and I like it because it's small and it's fluffy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: And one day you'll be able to getical genetically modify them and they will come in pink . project manager: Excellent , and what's your what's your role within the team ? marketing: I am the I need my notebook , ooh industrial designer: marketing: top banana . Okay , cool , I am the Marketing Expert so like I'm gonna be doing the apparently according to the little guy in the computer that knows everything the user g requirements specification of the functional design , trend watching in the conceptual design and product evad-valuation in the detailed design project manager: industrial designer: project manager: And more about yourself , you're from ? marketing: I'm from Leicester , project manager: what else do you want to know ? industrial designer: marketing: I like sports yeah , aerobics , kickboxing , spinning project manager: marketing: and project manager: But not with rabbits . project manager: There's a an if you have not enough room there's an eraser there and you can rub it off . so I'm the Interface Designer in this project and my favourite animal , I m I'm not so sure because I'm not so so very familiar with all kinds of animals , but I do like dogs . project manager: user interface: Oh , sorry , maybe I should have shouldn't have said it beforehand but industrial designer: . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well , there are different kinds of dogs , but okay . user interface: yeah and I do like dogs because they are good friends to people and they are loyal . project manager: user interface: yeah maybe maybe the fact that they protect their home as well , yeah . project manager: user interface: I hope to be loyal to the project industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and not to n not to let people doing similar projects know the details of our project or something , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: And where where are you from ? user interface: I'm from Estonia project manager: Estonia . so is there anything else you'd like to know ? Oh , right , my roles , industrial designer: . user interface: so in the different stages of the design , so at first I will be responsible for for yeah , designing the technical functions of the of the remote control then in the in the conceptual design stage I need to come up with interface concept and then in the last stage I will be responsible for the int infa for the user interface design . Okay I'll do some I'll rub the features project manager: industrial designer: and let the drawing stay . user interface: industrial designer: this is going to be marketing: They're not just like a big round body and then some really skinny legs industrial designer: Yeah , that'll do . industrial designer: Big , round body , really skinny legs marketing: project manager: industrial designer: and they've got a long tail marketing: industrial designer: and a long face . industrial designer: So this is what I like about cows marketing: Horns , project manager: user interface: industrial designer: that they just keeps sitting there eating grass , marketing: draw some horns . industrial designer: they do not disturb anybody marketing: project manager: industrial designer: they're kind of Buddhist in a way . my my role in the project is the industrial designer , so I'm supposed to design all the details of of the product ho how it works and whatever it'll take during the functional role , what are the various functions that have to be performed by it during the conceptual design , what are the various components of it and finally , I'm not too sure what was the last part . the detailed design , I I guess it will again be the identification of the components and how they integrate with each other . I'm doing my P_H_D_ in Psycholinguistics , I sit at the Department of Psychology . industrial designer: That doesn't look like a cow , does it ? project manager: Okay , here's a space . project manager: I like dogs too , but I can't do that already because I can't draw a dog as well as you can . marketing: Is there a difference ? user interface: Is a ar are they also like lizards or are they project manager: They're Yeah , they're l it's a kind of lizard . user interface: yeah , they are project manager: And I I like geckos user interface: project manager: and , and where I was living in Cambodia they used to live in my house user interface: Ah . marketing: project manager: and they were on the ceiling and they would make little gecko noises in the evening . industrial designer: user interface: I hope you don't like snakes , do you ? project manager: I don't like snakes . project manager: I'm from Melbourne and I'm your Project Manager for today industrial designer: . project manager: and my role is basically to keep things going and make sure that you all work together in a productive way , so that by the end of the day we come up with a great product . So , I've just thought marketing: If you right click on it you can project manager: yeah I've just thought about this that we could even put it much more professionally as marketing: industrial designer: We've got we're planning to sell these remote controls for let's make that go away , that means we've got five minutes . so to do that our finance people estimate that we need production costs of maximum twelve and a half Euro so that we can reach that profit target . Does anyone have any first ideas to bounce around about what we're thinking of this remote control ? user interface: Yep . I'm just wondering whether whether there is like any special feature that we want to have w want this remote control have as opposed to the already existing ones . I think that's probably something that w it's best if we take away with us , industrial designer: project manager: but if we all have a think , when we go away from the meeting , what specific things could be included in this remote control that that are out of the ordinary . industrial designer: I think i in the beginning one thing was that was mentioned was that it should be trendy , user friendly and original so I think your point is relevant as far as the originality is concerned , that we should provide some features that are quite unique to this . marketing: and the other things that they've made and I like put down some like inspirational words like that I got from looking at the pictures . marketing: and so it's something that is sleek and stylish but it's still functional , you know ? project manager: marketing: So I'm kind of thinking , you know like those phones that they have , the new generation ones , where they don't actually have any buttons on them and stuff like that . marketing: You know , so something heading towards that , so it's not overly I don't know what h most of the buttons do on my remote controls , so I figure how many do you need , you know ? project manager: project manager: So perhaps some sort of menu-based thing , or industrial designer: marketing: Something that's a little less crowded than this , like you know , theoretically you can do all kinds of things with your T_V_ , right ? project manager: marketing: They turn it on , they watch certain specified channels , you know , and then they turn it off again . industrial designer: There is a lot of functionality in there that is not used ninety percent of the time , marketing: Sometimes they play a movie . marketing: there's no need to have buttons on it to do that , project manager: So , no . project manager: It could be one button for a menu or something , if you really need to go and do that . marketing: So , if you're the kind of sad case that knows how your remote control works , then you know that's fine project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: and you can do it on the screen rather than everybody else having to have those buttons , which just confuse them . marketing: 'Cause like if you look at the train , it's just very like , there's no extra bits on it , the train on the website and I dunno if you can put it up on the thing project manager: Oh I haven't had a look yet , yep . marketing: but it is just like a long like thing used for mu moving people , but it looks really pretty too . we can aim for we can think about all these little things , but we can aim for something wi that gives a high battery life , although I don't think that it's a huge problem for remote controls anyway , battery life , project manager: user interface: Yeah but e even though it has to be re original we shouldn't go like too far away from from the usual ones , because otherwise the new users will just have a lot of problems industrial designer: Yeah . So , i it should kind of fit in as well , and the stereotype of a project manager: It's like those fancy websites that you can't access industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because you have no idea how to get in , but the designers thought they were great . Okay , so we need to wrap it up now , so that we can go away and get on with some of this . we've got another meeting in thirty minutes , so you're you'll be getting specific instructions once you go back to your workspace , but im basically you're looking at the working design , industrial designer: Alright . project manager: you're looking at the technical functions design , and for you it's the user requirements specification , marketing: - <doc-sep>Welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and it looks like we've done a good job here and we'll just go through the the final the final details . okay , oh the th the the minutes of the last meeting I think we'll take those as read , Okay industrial designer: project manager: the th the the next thing we we we'll have a look at the th have a look at the prototypes and look at the evaluation criteria and finance and then just tidy up with production and and then we can close . industrial designer: okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it's just you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . on the left we've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: this is the power key , it's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . This is the infra-red section so you g it'll be sending rays and if you're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: Yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it'll send it . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: Yep , industrial designer: and it'll still understand . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: S industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: Yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there's holes for the buttons to come through . user interface: And so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: -huh . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make iPod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . user interface: I I didn't know that but yeah they're kind of it's just kind of a rubbery project manager: -huh . user interface: and that way you know project manager: Okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and that way I think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: Okay . industrial designer: But it's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the R_R_ . project manager: tha it's it's a detailed point , I just wondered h how will people put these down I wonder ? user interface: Like that . Okay for some strange re reason I had it in my mind that they'd put them down vertically industrial designer: Yeah it could stand , yeah . industrial designer: Well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: Yeah , no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they've dif if they're gonna have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: Yeah , standing . project manager: it it's it it's just it's just a minor detailed point , but as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and industrial designer: Yeah , we could just widen it out project manager: Yeah and it just needs another another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they've got them industrial designer: . project manager: because actually have several upon the marketing: Could have one for your stereo , one for your D_V_ player . industrial designer: Have to if we just lengthen it I guess project manager: Yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: Yeah , project manager: but that that's but user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . user interface: Somewhere like that project manager: no no , that's these user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: We might have to lengthen it marketing: Yeah I kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: Yeah . marketing: where it's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: Bu project manager: Yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: But yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: . project manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: The final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: I think the the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: and the i industrial designer: Wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being of you know looking different . industrial designer: project manager: right let us What's on the next one ? Oh right yes , let's have a look at the f finance . , now we're given a a clear design brief , if I get the spreadsheet up . Good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: Now I've this is the company's costing for for various aspects of design and I I I've treated some of these slightly liberally given the constraints placed on us , I wouldn't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that's a that's a standard colour . , so we're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision I've had to make is that we're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and I I I'm I'm I'm certain that they they are around so , that I don't think is a a serious problem . The the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . then again the the the the shape of the case means that it's it's expensive to l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept we we should exceed the the sales targets . it's simply made of plastic so th that's that's no problem and just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that's there's some cost there . and we haven't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple slider so and the and the the buttons are well I do don't know that they're special colour . Anyway the the costings come in at exactly on target at twelve point five but I thi I think we have a a very strong case to argue that what what we've got is is so in innovative and and different that any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the you know the you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: . project manager: so you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative that they they have to accept that we we can't operate absolutely within the constraints that they give , industrial designer: . project manager: so we we we present this as the the company's the the company's way forward and I I think we can argue that we we have come in on on budget . Does anybody want to Andrew do you want what do you want to say about the yeah the evaluation marketing: Evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we're where where we're at ? marketing: The the product or the project ? project manager: The the the well the I meant the product . Method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . So what I've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: gauge our team response to these questions . And then at the end just take an average project manager: Tr On for true and seven for flase . marketing: Easy to use ? project manager: I don't see we could've made it any easier . And , what else ? The R_S_I_ compares to the current standards , project manager: Less buttons so it must be . We we industrial designer: Yeah marketing: yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: I think it will because old older people who can't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: . Well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: well I don't think we're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: I I I think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but I think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: It will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it's it's industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . user interface: Yeah I think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so I I yeah I user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , so I think we can reasonably say it's another another one , industrial designer: . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? , yeah and what h did we make the management's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management's instructions is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it's television only , industrial designer: Yep . project manager: it's it's it's within budget , user interface: Under the cost . project manager: coming up with what marketing: So one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . project manager: Before I industrial designer: user interface: Ps I don't think so , project manager: No . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: Yeah . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: Well that's right , th this this slide here the satisfaction with room for creativity , industrial designer: . project manager: I think we've allowed ourselves as much creativity as the the the the product allows . project manager: I won't comment on leadership , teamwork I think we've I think everybody's worked pretty well together . project manager: we've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , I think the results speak for itself industrial designer: . project manager: and new ideas found , again gi no given relatively everyday product , I think we've v very very effectively come up with a a new user interface: Yeah . Is the project evaluated ? We're we're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , industrial designer: Yep . project manager: Thank you very much indeed , I think that I think that's industrial designer: Cool , thank you , user interface: Alright <doc-sep>project manager: Are we we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ? project manager: Yeah , I've got marketing: Right , both of them , okay . project manager: I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . , we want it to be original , something that's people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , first is the functional design , this is where we all go off and do our individual work , what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and sum up the characteristics of that animal . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger . Where did this come from ? project manager: Is that your lapel then ? user interface: yep . , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ? marketing: A kind of dog ? project manager: user interface: Yep . It's your best friend and your you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . marketing: Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little , project manager: industrial designer: Alright , okay . industrial designer: Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random . project manager: Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is marketing: user interface: . project manager: industrial designer: Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be project manager: industrial designer: because that looks like a beak now , so . Is it gonna be marketing: user interface: industrial designer: Well it was it was an at first project manager: it's gonna be a bird . industrial designer: firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican marketing: O industrial designer: but it can be a crocodile now actually . marketing: Beauti that's industrial designer: scary , strong , yeah that's about it I think . , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills , industrial designer: marketing: mine's are dreadful . industrial designer: Wo marketing: I hope that clicks in , I'll just I'll hold it on , okay . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: Oops , oh dear , what happened there ? project manager: Technical help . marketing: Okay , Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , . industrial designer: Okay , some sort of bird marketing: That's my dreadful that's the worst yet , that's it's meant to be an eagle project manager: A seagu user interface: Eagle , okay . marketing: you can tell it's a flying animal could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . marketing: Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ? project manager: Eagle . industrial designer: marketing: I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ? industrial designer: It's about user interface: One point four or something like that . industrial designer: so that project manager: D fifteen ? industrial designer: yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that . marketing: Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ? project manager: I think so , I think so , industrial designer: But project manager: I'll be able to pull it up , marketing: Yeah , okay . industrial designer: Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway . I think marketing: so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ? project manager: Yeah , production cost's at twelve fifty , so industrial designer: . project manager: which is marketing: In our first year ? project manager: Yi yes , yeah , I presume so . user interface: So then marketing: You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a accessible and usable by sort of all age groups project manager: marketing: just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone project manager: No , yeah . project manager: yes , yes , I don't think we have to I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , making that a key point , marketing: No . project manager: just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I've got we got we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up user interface: project manager: so we got one of the universal remote controls , that you programme each of your things into , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: that c project manager: but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but that was quite good , the fact that you could You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you . user interface: Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like industrial designer: Yeah , user interface: Okay . industrial designer: 'cause you marketing: My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions , project manager: . marketing: I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well . project manager: Yeah , the main that's the main stuff anyway , marketing: project manager: and you don't want to I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do marketing: . When they're when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it . project manager: 'Cause it doesn't make when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at , marketing: . marketing: Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display , user interface: marketing: I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus . user interface: And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe . project manager: What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ? user interface: You mean to save it lesser number . project manager: my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that . project manager: I don't think they tape things , industrial designer: Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so project manager: I don't think they use marketing: Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps , project manager: yeah , the age gap . industrial designer: Yeah , what it just needs to be as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do . project manager: I don't know , I d industrial designer: But I don't know how project manager: I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system . project manager: I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but my friend got a new one marketing: Right . project manager: and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me . industrial designer: Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get , marketing: project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ? user interface: Okay . marketing: Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things marketing: project manager: and also and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over . S project manager: I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about industrial designer: Y user interface: It might marketing: Yeah ? user interface: it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small . marketing: And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ? project manager: . project manager: right , okay industrial designer: No project manager: we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation . industrial designer: about what you're saying about the does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui marketing: Ah right . industrial designer: and it'd look quite good but marketing: But yeah , it doesn't have to be that , you know th that was my main point , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper , project manager: . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter , marketing: Right

The Industrial Designer initially had concerns about replacing buttons on the remote, but Marketing convinced them that the age gap was a problem regardless of design modifications, and insisted on incorporating a menu display. Initially uncertain about using plastic for a fashionable look, the Industrial Designer was shown examples by Marketing and the Project Manager, demonstrating that silver plastic could look smart. The Industrial Designers believed that fashion should have individuality and combine with function for a perfect fit between fashion and electronics, emphasizing the need for originality to be unique. They also agreed that the remote should be fashionable, technologically innovative, and customer-friendly, suggesting that fewer buttons could improve ergonomics.

What were the Industrial Designer's thoughts on the older generation, plastic, fashion design, and evaluation criteria when discussing the style and design optimization of the remote control?

I think we made some definite progress at the last one and come up with some interesting w suggestions for our our new remote control . the the the problem with existing remote controls , we felt , was that they're ugly and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better . they've got lots of buttons on them that people don't use and find difficult to learn . And We we thought that f for our our new remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy , that we're we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons , and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use . That we want to go for a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable , A_ as a trendy remote control , and and B_ as a Real Reaction product . So that w when people are happy with that , they will they will want to buy everything else from us . So again , I'll we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then we'll we'll make a a final a final decision . and the the decisions that we need to to make today , finally , are what energy source we want to use , whether i it is practical to use a a a long lasting one . And I I think our discussion was around the fact that if we're gonna go for a long lasting power supply , then basically it's sealed for life and if anybody does manage to run one down , we'll we'll give them another one . And it it'll be , you know , prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's , you know , for life , guaranteed for life . now the the the internal chip and this is where I need Kate's expert advice industrial designer: project manager: and given that th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible d d do we go for a custom designed chip ? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves ? I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things , but presumably , there must be loads of 'em already on the market that we can modify . And then the , you know , the the overall design of the case is is is Kendra's field and user interface: industrial designer: project manager: we we had some discussions last time as as to how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those da today . and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface , whether we p go for voice , buttons , or or a bit of both . and then , you know , f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look , feel and design , Kendra the ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: so , if if we can have the the three presentations again please , and p perhaps you'd like to start k . basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated into light signals which are then seen by the T_V_ . the materials we're gonna need to look at the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator , two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor . basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format . This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which changes the channels . so as for how we should end up using this in our remote t couple of main questions are the buttons . y the fewer buttons you have , I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need . however to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and raise the production cost . Also we have to work within the company constraints , and the company has informed me via email that they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most cost-effective way of producing it . also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use , so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea . we also need to look at the chips , v custom-designed versus off the shelf , and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all seem to have agreed upon . , however that's gonna cost more , but the off the shelf is gonna be cheaper and it's gonna be allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster , but it's going to be less flexible with the features , especially things like voice activation , which haven't really been used much on remotes , so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to to convert , project manager: Okay , industrial designer: so if we were definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design our own chip . project manager: d d d okay , inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive . project manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to develop a a custom chip . Oh w yeah , we did the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed , project manager: Right , industrial designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form , project manager: okay . project manager: that would appear to effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology . now before we go round everybody else , does anybody h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that ? user interface: I I just have a question about that . does it make a difference if there are just a few commands , for example if you can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say , you know , nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one , as your favourite , it's like to have a certain number of favourites industrial designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick . user interface: and that w industrial designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there , then it's pretty much the the world the the sky is your limit , user interface: Okay . industrial designer: but to actually the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working . project manager: Cause I must say I find it slightly surprising given that , you know , mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling . project manager: I d d for slightly different well no , it's if you you speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you , so bu the this this information is from is this is the internal company information , is it ? industrial designer: bits of it , yeah . project manager: So user interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive , industrial designer: Yes , as well . project manager: Yeah , true , again but if it's without any without any p price informations that's difficult to industrial designer: project manager: decide . marketing: Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them , not just that , so . It's like it's it's you can't 'cause mobile phones are expensive , you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is . I su i if given that the the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before , th th the double risk , perhaps we ought to stick to to buttons , since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work . Thoughts ? user interface: Well , another thought I marketing: Would user interface: oh , sorry , go ahead . marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost . project manager: do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project ? industrial designer: it's fundament well I guess it it's something we've discussed since the the sort of the beginning , so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental , but I don't know that the the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that , so I think you have to project manager: I think we user interface: Oh yeah . industrial designer: user interface: Well , I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it , then maybe we should have it for the whole thing . user interface: Anyway , I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it . marketing: yeah , it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative . project manager: if if that means if that means we can't afford buttons but b b industrial designer: project manager: second question , do we need the five buttons for channel change , up down , volume up down and on off , just as a a backup or just so that people can j j just sit there pressing buttons ? user interface: Yeah . Sorry , d did you want to say anything ? No ? industrial designer: nope , project manager: Okay . Is it gonna work ? project manager: yeah , industrial designer: Yeah , it's thinking about it . user interface: so I did some research on the internet and what you know , the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users , commands and mechanisms for the operation , and there're just kind of a variety of choices . user interface: and these were just a couple examples of different kinds that are a little bit more unusual . user interface: There're some special ones available , like this one right here , project manager: -huh . user interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like . industrial designer: user interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter , project manager: user interface: avoid too many buttons and also one of the things that people have used is a slide button , like you have on a mouse , that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume , for example , have the slide button on the side , marketing: . user interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels , the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator . project manager: I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple , cheap and reliable . I , I think it's just sort of the the there's a lot of slide buttons out there . user interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down industrial designer: . user interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Three buttons , channel up channel up down and user interface: Y yes , yes . marketing: Well , if you g if you if you got a channel up down , we can have a slider in that as well . Because if it if you no user interface: marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of if you you know it s kind of like sticks , if you know what , up like one unit , if you see what . marketing: So it kinda goes up one , then y like you can keep rolling it up , but it's like like like like a cog or something . user interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons , like the buttons on one side for the channel , and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand , and you pick it up , it's easy to n s know , okay , this is just the volume and this is the channel . project manager: This one on the one side and one marketing: you could you could as l as like a mouse you could project manager: yeah . industrial designer: Ye yeah , 'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume , or vice versa , project manager: Yeah . project manager: or yeah th th the thi this is what the user interface: That was marketing: Yeah , like the shape of it almost like a mouse , with a project manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know know what it's going to do . project manager: Okay , so we we're looking at sliders for both a volume and channel change user interface: well project manager: of one sort . user interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume , project manager: Just for the volume , . user interface: but what what do you guys think ? marketing: Dep I dunno if it user interface: We could marketing: depending on the final shape of it , 'cause you could have like , I dunno , it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb , user interface: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: 'cause if yeah , in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the that for rolling , project manager: It yeah , it it it seems to me that it it al also has the advantage that it it the two are clearly different , user interface: B industrial designer: just the way it would user interface: Yeah . project manager: that's sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo user interface: Yes . marketing: The data's come off internet from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer . industrial designer: marketing: And the most important aspect is the l the look it has to look fancy , look and feel project manager: This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect , project manager: . So and the third being easy to use is probably a given , we have to try and incorporate , so project manager: Well I I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those . yeah , and from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes , et cetera . industrial designer: project manager: I hadn't thought of that , that's different , certainly . But I was gonna say yeah , project manager: What ? marketing: fruit and vegetables , important to this year important to furniture , I'm just gonna say f like it's in if if fashion if we're going for the it looks fancy , then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through . industrial designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing face things , like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year marketing: . project manager: industrial designer: and whatever happens next year , we can have the face plates , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: and then we can just whip that off and industrial designer: yeah . You know , that kind of spongy industrial designer: yeah , that weird I dunno what that is , project manager: . you have we could if we could save depending on the cost of the product itself , you know , could we have a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed ? Instead of having a ten year guarantee ? With interchangeable covers , could just buy a new one every year , a new one when new fashions come out . user interface: project manager: I it its I that's an interesting idea , it's like the old Swatch watch where on only batteries ever got changed in those , 'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion , industrial designer: . user interface: Wh project manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity industrial designer: I I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one , because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product . project manager: W we we can b but my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last , you know , a long time . project manager: but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better . user interface: So industrial designer: That all c also kind of encourages 'em to buy new covers user interface: like industrial designer: and yeah . project manager: I n I know the only p the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it y you've then got the connection user interface: So f project manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability , whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all , you know , completely soldered together industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but I d I I I know what you're saying and understand where you're coming from . marketing: Or well , but like like more than just the battery , like a complete different like you've only got like , you know like th this bit's the bit you keep , and this is the expensive bit , this is like the chip industrial designer: And then project manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route , then we're talking about even if it costs slightly more than that , just building the whole thing in one , then having getting cheaper production costs marketing: Yeah , you probably are right . project manager: and , you know giving people the option of buying a new a a complete new thing , the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't it doesn't have a cover on at all , it will still work totally . project manager: then if , you know , if people lose the cover , they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one rather than a a complete new re remote . industrial designer: Well that that's just it with the covers , you're sort of tricking 'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making 'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product . project manager: Yeah , it is it's up to it's up to industrial designer: So , user interface: Yeah , just another five Euro to get industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item . project manager: and , you know , as as external fashions change , then we get new new covers on the market and , you know , readily available . project manager: And industrial designer: And that's the sort of thing , once you get the mould set , you can just whip out different colours , different pictures very very quickly . user interface: Yeah , like they have for mobile phones industrial designer: Yeah , yeah , exactly , exactly . we hadn't finished your marketing: oh , don't worry it's all said , I was just gonna say yeah , are we gonna make this as part of like like a part of the f like it it the fashions apply to furniture , so are we gonna make this part of the furniture ? project manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their coffee table to say this says something about me . marketing: with project manager: I , you know , I'm I'm I'm with it , I'm up to date . And you know , th the the design that I've got , and and it could be a a home-made design , you know this says this is not just a a television remote control , this is , you know , a fashion accessory . , so the the the basic shape i is is what we given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably , two buttons for channel change and one slider and basically nothing else , industrial designer: . And , know whether we go down the fruit and veg route , and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana , but know sort of the the organic , you know , curved look , industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: you know , t to deliberately get away from the you know , the the the the square look of most current remotes industrial designer: . project manager: and , you know , whether whether the you know , the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow . or 'cause there's certainly you know , the the corporate logo needs to be prominently displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right , that's a Real Reaction remote control , I want one of those . industrial designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it , project manager: Yeah the the or or b industrial designer: but I'd user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour user interface: like an . project manager: Yeah , I'd I'd industrial designer: to make the ent like the thing user interface: Yeah . no industrial designer: no , but just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour . project manager: I d I I agree , we're we're we're simply it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently . user interface: Well n project manager: Well , th this is this is the whole point , yes , you know , I'm I've got a a Real Reaction remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: And then people , you know , people demand more Real Reaction stuff . user interface: Well I was sort of kinda picturing like maybe a shape that's almost like a mouse . user interface: So that , you know , when they hold it it's because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it , but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and project manager: Yeah . project manager: Oh no that well there's the sim my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , you'd want it narrower than a mouse though user interface: Kind of a c industrial designer: 'cause it a mouse you're kinda just resting on it , you want something you can definitely grip . project manager: W it well it's sort of it's it's sort of a a mouse , industrial designer: So maybe it'd be user interface: Yeah . project manager: but held , you know , so it's you sorta hold it in your hand like that , i with , you know , and fiddling with the buttons . user interface: Yeah so yeah , kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this , 'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold , and then if you had industrial designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush , like you could get the about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: and you can fiddle user interface: then wider up here . user interface: And then it would have a l wider thing to have the light , the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . marketing: Yeah , that sounds I'm just I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to . are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes . project manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form , but that yeah . industrial designer: But do you know , this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice 'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling , but you can also bring it up like that project manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it , industrial designer: and it's microphone-esque , user interface: Yeah , and just say project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: Yeah , maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff , industrial designer: . project manager: I th I th honest my personal view is that if it's not there , people wouldn't use it anyway . marketing: I suppose , but t there is the off chance that , you know , th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing . project manager: It's cer it's certainly possible , but they we we're going beyond w w industrial designer: Bu . project manager: given the state of the technology we want something that we kno we know will will work . if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and or do voice commands , and either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness project manager: marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: and and sc marketing: that's a good idea . industrial designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons user interface: Yeah , I suppose I sup industrial designer: and still have those , you know , brightness and tint and stuff . project manager: If we we're I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available . industrial designer: Yeah user interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume . project manager: marketing: project manager: Okay , if we if we're going down that route , then we need some sort of display . Do we need some sort of display ? industrial designer: But the television would be the display project manager: We actually use the television , okay . industrial designer: that things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu user interface: Yeah , and then y industrial designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness , and you'd use the scroll , scroll through it yeah . marketing: on a onto like a mouse , the ru the scrolling button , is actually a button as well , you could press it , you could press that and have it as a menu button . user interface: Yeah , press that is t industrial designer: I never understood how that worked though , user interface: yeah , that might work . user interface: Yeah , it's like yeah , it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it . user interface: Yeah , and you could just click that to so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select . project manager: so I d I think we've actually very conveniently just come to a good point to s to sum up . project manager: So b b Kate and Kendra now go away and pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough , industrial designer: Play with play-dough . industrial designer: project manager: and actually put what we've discussed into something I was gonna say concrete , marketing: . project manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word industrial designer: project manager: to something that we can we can see and Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can actually market this as a concept and not j not just a a a simple remote control . marketing: Our energy source is gonna be project manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna for marketing: long term . project manager: for simplicity of , you know , manufacturing and maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source , industrial designer: . project manager: I you know , on the basis that that , you know , if we're going for making it a fashion statement , then people are more likely to change it anyway before i it runs out and make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for we'll say at least five five ten years marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: And we're having a custom chip ? project manager: We're having a a custom chip , but given the the we've cut the functions down , that will hopefully not be too problematic , but given that technol technological innovation is important , industrial designer: project manager: then we need to , I'll say it again , technologically innovate . marketing: project manager: and we we , know , we must resist any efforts to to try and water that down . marketing: And interchangeable case ? project manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be important to the concept . project manager: it it should be cheap , you know , if if we avoid any , you know , electrical connections . project manager: And i you know , i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it to whatever they want , then this is totally new . project manager: We d we don't know whether that to what extent people do it or not , but if they've at least got a a good selection of covers that they can use anyway , and and if if we can keep them , you know , rolling , then you know , so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to a any of the famous supermarkets , I won't mention any mention any names , industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it's it's good for the supermarket user interface: project manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better . marketing: And are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or project manager: the that that's no , because we've got so few buttons that it that actually makes that redundant . user interface: Yeah , and especially for making them so like different and industrial designer: different to feel , project manager: Yeah , yeah . project manager: you know , that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life , 'cause that would well that would clobber the battery life , industrial designer: project manager: so no , given the nature of the buttons we're having , it's actually unnecessary I think . marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle , or is it just project manager: As as wide industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: so that if you're holding it , you know , anyway like you're likely to and it's you know , i i it will work most of the time . project manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah , I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing , then sort of the the whole of the top would be the the infrared . project manager: Yeah , 'cause the r reality is people are they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it , the chances are , so if if they're holding it anyway , the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it , user interface: Yeah . project manager: Okay , so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes <doc-sep> we're gonna discuss the look and feel design , the user interface design , and we're gonna evaluate the product . And the end result of this meeting has to be a decision on the details of this remote control , like absolute final decision , and then I'm gonna have to specify the final design in the final report . So just from from last time to recap , we said we were gonna have a snowman shaped remote control with no L_C_D_ display , no need for talk-back , it was hopefully gonna be kinetic power and battery with rubber buttons , maybe backlighting the buttons with some internal L_E_D_s to shine through the casing , hopefully a jog-dial , and incorporating the slogan somewhere as well . user interface: well look at the expense sheet , and it turned to be quite a lot expensive to have open up and have lots of buttons and stuff inside , project manager: . user interface: so instead we've this is gonna be an L_C_D_ screen , just a a very very basic one , very small with access to the menu through the the scroll wheel and confirm button . user interface: apart from that , it's just pretty much the same as we discussed last time . industrial designer: And there isn't d it doesn't open up to the advanced functions ? the advanced functions are still hidden from you , but they're hidden in the sense that they're not in use . marketing: Where are they ? industrial designer: they're in the L_C_D_ panel and the jog-dial ? marketing: Ah , right . industrial designer: Okay 'cause project manager: So w what kind of thing is gonna be marketing: Great . user interface: industrial designer: The L_C_D_ panel just displays functionally what you're doing . If you're using an advanced function right , like c brightness , contrast , whatever , it will just say marketing: Right . industrial designer: You know it's like it only has four columns , it's a very simple L_C_D_ like , whereas many the minimum amount we need that the user will automatically know like this is brightness or this is contrast . industrial designer: It might even be one , a bit more complex L_C_D_ panel with pictures like maybe the sun or the , you know , the the symbols of the various functions . project manager: Where are we gonna have the slogan ? industrial designer: they're al along this user interface: You know , just like right inside there . industrial designer: You have this space here , and then you have this thing on the side as well , or at the bottom . project manager: industrial designer: 'Cause slogans are usually quite small , right , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: say a button's about this size , right , so you would still have plenty of space for a slogan , say even for that . project manager: So if this isn't to scale , what kind of dimensions are you thinking about here ? user interface: Well we want the other buttons to be big enough to push easily with a finger project manager: user interface: so we reckon maybe that'll be about the same size as the palm of your hand . industrial designer: Yep so that would be about a centimetre for a button , so one two three four centimetres . marketing: That'd be good , in fact a pen is about ten centimetres usually , so that would be that sounds like a really good size , if you see it there . Is these are these the colours that of production , or is this just what we had available ? user interface: Well I'm We're gonna have again the the sort of the foggy yellow from last time that lit up when you pushed the button . project manager: Okay so just user interface: project manager: could you just list all the things that it does s so I can write them in the report . user interface: But this button , because it's red it's sort of very prominent , we're gonna use it as it can be the power button if you hold it for maybe two seconds it'll send a stand-by signal . user interface: apart from that it's gonna be used as a confirm button for the L_C_D_ screen industrial designer: Sure . industrial designer: Oh we've discussed how h high it is , but how wide is it ? user interface: I don't know . marketing: How high is it ? industrial designer: No as in the height , but what about the width ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: Oh is this k to get an idea of scale from your from your thing there okay . project manager: So you can power on and off , what else can you do ? marketing: Three and a half . user interface: were gonna have the volume control here , but because we've got the the L_C_D_ and the jog-dial we just thought we'd use that as the volume . user interface: you can use it for more advanced functions like contrast , colour and project manager: Contrast , brightness , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and anything else ? user interface: just whatever else we wanted to include as the advanced functions , we didn't actually go through and specify the project manager: Well of the designers what are they ? user interface: what can a T_V_ do ? industrial designer: Okay things like brightness , contrast , project manager: -huh . Are you having a V_C_R_ , are you having you know which input do you have ? marketing: - , industrial designer: Audio , we have like your basic y your base , your mid-range , your high range . industrial designer: Yep , left-right balance , maybe even pre-programmed sound modes , like the user could determine like a series of sound modes , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: and then what could happen would be when you click on that then it would go to that setting . project manager: is there anything else at all it can do ? That 'cause that's that's fine . Okay right I g I guess that's it , so we can now We can now have a little look at the the Excel sheet and price listing , and see if we need to if we need to rethink anything at all . project manager: So for this first part here power-wise , have we got battery ? industrial designer: The battery . industrial designer: We need an project manager: And that's because of cost restraints is it ? industrial designer: Yep . project manager: what about the electronics here ? industrial designer: We need an advanced chip I think , yep . project manager: Okay the case , what does it mean by single and double , do you know ? user interface: I think single would just be sort of one sort of oval whereas double is this sort of thing . project manager: Is there any rubber at all in the buttons or any industrial designer: I think we're gonna have to skip the rubber . project manager: So I'll have to put that Oh no wait we ho how many colours have we got there ? industrial designer: For the case itself , one colour . industrial designer: 'Cause the case unit itself , the rest of our components go on top of it . project manager: Okay so interface-wise , is it this third option we have , the two of them there ? marketing: . project manager: Okay and then buttons , we have what , two colours ? industrial designer: How many user interface: we have got some push buttons as well . user interface: So I reckon we've got one button for this thing 'cause it's just one big sheet of rubber . user interface: I'm not sure if that counts but industrial designer: Okay let's just be safe and put like say four buttons for that one . user interface: You can see we're we're all very far beyond the project manager: So w why are we arriving at the number four ? Where does the number four come from ? industrial designer: 'Cause that's one button by its the complexity of twelve buttons . project manager: Okay right , industrial designer: So we're just estimating that yeah it would be less . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: Now we're gonna something's gonna have to go . we're at sixteen point eight and marketing: how - how are we going to achieve this high-end product if project manager: Well we h something has to go to the tune of two point t three Euro , marketing: We only have very sparse project manager: so let me see , what are we marketing: Two point three ? Four point three no ? project manager: oh yes sorry , four point three . user interface: Well we could take out ones by making it single curved , just fill in those bits . industrial designer: How much would that save us ? marketing: And then where is the project manager: How much would that save us ? industrial designer: That will only save you one . industrial designer: The other thing could be that you could take away the L_C_D_ panel and the advanced chip together , project manager: One . industrial designer: because when you do something on the T_V_ , the T_V_ responds and reacts as well , marketing: industrial designer: so the user could be looking at the T_V_ and pushing his thing so we may not need to user interface: That's fair enough , yeah . industrial designer: so when we scroll we need just some way to get the T_V_ to respond , marketing: industrial designer: which I think is a technically doable thing so project manager: Okay so marketing: and we ha where are the four the four push buttons are where exactly now ? industrial designer: The twelve buttons that you see there . user interface: That's one piece of rubber but it's gonna have twelve button things underneath so project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Functionally you're gonna have to intercept So four is a good estimate for project manager: Do you think ? industrial designer: Yeah , so you can't actually cut It's like three times the number of buttons , four , eight , twelve . project manager: Like is is that one big button or is it twelve buttons , industrial designer: It It needs to be more than one big button because if you open up your phone , underneath there's actually one button underneath , it's just that the panel itself is a single panel . marketing: industrial designer: or the colours , you could take away s colours for th for the buttons . project manager: Well do you want colour differentiation here ? industrial designer: No that's not the button we're talking about . industrial designer: the buttons only refer to the pad so project manager: Right so industrial designer: Should we take that off ? project manager: Ah . industrial designer: so then these just become normal coloured buttons , so that might be some some way of cutting the cost . marketing: user interface: So I reckon project manager: marketing: How about with embossing the logo , isn't that going to cost us some money ? project manager: Doesn't say so . Just one ? Does that mean that one button has a special form or user interface: I think there's just one button so project manager: Yeah okay . So we're not gonna have the L_C_D_ anymore , and we'll just gonna have an on t on the T_V_ it'll show you what you're doing , which I think is fair enough , and so this is gonna be one big thing here . marketing: Was the goal in your in your prototype design that it be as low profile as possible ? industrial designer: What do you mean by profile ? marketing: Sort of flat as possible . user interface: sort of deep enough to be comfy to hold in your hands rather than being wide and flat . marketing: Yeah that's what I was thinking , to industrial designer: We didn't have enough Play-Doh to make it three D_ . industrial designer: So there's one more dimension to the thing which we need to to add , marketing: project manager: So just to well to be thorough then , width-wise we're looking at about what three centimetres or something ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: How how tall do you envisage it being ? About that big ? industrial designer: Two . Okay so can we close that ? This is what it's the final spec that it's gonna be . marketing: it's probably just I dunno if it's worth getting into , but just in in that we want this to be stylish , should we think a little bit more out of the box in terms of a button grid , because I've seen there's lots of devices out there that that instead of taking your standard nine nine square grid , and they have it sort of stylized or in different concept that that industrial designer: I think that's something that's very hard to catch , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: The the look and the colour is something which is cool , marketing: Yeah , alright . industrial designer: but I think that there's also that factor of if it's too unfamiliar marketing: Okay , sure . industrial designer: then because when you put it on the shelf marketing: What about button shape ? Square buttons ? industrial designer: Yeah button shape might be a good idea to change , rather than rather than positioning , marketing: Okay . industrial designer: 'cause I think positioning is we're kinda engrained into the the telephone kind of marketing: Yeah . So at this point we , let me see , discuss how satisfied we all are with with these four points , with the room for creativity in the project , and leadership and teamwork , and the stuff we had around us I guess . project manager: let me see marketing: Do you want me to d Do you want me to do my design evaluation last ? industrial designer: Maybe we should do the design evaluation first . project manager: Yeah I wasn't really sure what that was marketing: Or project manager: Yeah marketing: Evaluation . , alright so the way this works , I'm gonna need to plug into PowerPoint , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: I don't think you need the power , marketing: industrial designer: so marketing: What's that ? industrial designer: No , that's okay that's okay . marketing: I don't need the PowerPoint ? industrial designer: No , the power cord itself . marketing: Oh course , industrial designer: Yeah , so then you have a bit more freedom to marketing: yeah that's true . marketing: so what this is is a set-up for us to use a kind of a like a user interface: Is it ? industrial designer: You killed a monster . user interface: marketing: The idea is that I've set up I've reviewed all of the the points of discussion from the beginning , and used that as a criteria of evaluation for the for the current design th or the plan , and so we can review that . I think it's gonna end up being sort of elementary because we're sort we're in n we're not gonna probably use it to change anything but Doesn't seem like it's going , does it ? project manager: Oh there it is . and I'm gonna write up our results on the board , so this'll be a way for us to go through and decide if we're sort of review where we stand with it . Okay , so So to sort of b bring together two things , sort of design goals and also the market research that we had , when we rate this , one is v high in in succeeding or fitting to our original aim and seven is low , project manager: 'kay . So these i these i th are the and we've been asked to to collectively rate this , so what we can do is try and just y work on a consensus system so we just come to an agreement . project manager: What does anybody else think ? marketing: Yeah me my only reservation with it was that we basically went with yellow because it's the company's colour , project manager: . industrial designer: It's one to seven , right ? project manager: Oh yes marketing: The project manager: sorry then marketing: So it meant three , project manager: then I would say two or three . industrial designer: Wait , what's the scale , one to seven , right ? project manager: Yeah . user interface: One's high-ish isn't it ? Ah , okay so yeah , two or three . project manager: Well it has the wee jog-dial marketing: We had to remove project manager: but marketing: Yeah , so we've had to remove a few of our features we wanted , project manager: . marketing: but jog-dial industrial designer: Say it's more project manager: I'd go with three or four , marketing: 's good . marketing: I shouldn't have said colour , but just industrial designer: Okay , the blue the blue colours and don't re don't actually represent the colour , project manager: Well that's kind of marketing: Sorta . industrial designer: Yeah , the the yellow is more representative of the colour , project manager: couldn't it ? industrial designer: but the button itself , the blue can be anything else . project manager: Well yeah , it's really basic looking isn't it ? marketing: F f yeah f fairly basic , project manager: I'd give that nearly a one . , soft and spongy , have we achieved that ? We've used mostly plastic in the end so it's going to be quite a bit of a compromise for price . marketing: That's user interface: so it's probably gonna be marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , company logo . marketing: could we have used an entirely rubber frame to it ? Was that an option ? industrial designer: I think it'll be cost prohibitive , user interface: I think I'd probably increase the cost . marketing: Okay , logo , we've got it in there , haven't we ? industrial designer: Yep . Gonna have that on the side , aren't we , like there or something ? marketing: Huh . marketing: Okay , so we can say then that out of a possible or what would be our goal here ? project manager: Out of forty nine , I guess . marketing: I think 'cause if you turn that into a hundred it would be about project manager: Twice that , marketing: about thirty one , project manager: about thirty one . marketing: and then invert that , it's project manager: So yeah ab well yeah about sixty nine , seventy percent yeah . project manager: Is that you all have all finished , or marketing: Yeah that's that's me . I did have one other one other frame I thought , I I d not knowing how we would deal with this information , I thought okay in theory this kind of a process would be about refining our design , revisiting our original goals . marketing: It's not something I need to p push through , but I thought should we thinking more about the dimensions , sort of like more of a three dimensional shapes as well as opposed to just that flat project manager: marketing: Could our design involve a series of colours so that it's more of like a line where we have like sort of the , I don't know like the harvest line or the vibrant , industrial designer: Yep . marketing: I dunno the Whatever just some theme and then we have different tones , lime green , lemon . project manager: Okay , great are you submitting the the evaluation criteria or am I ? I don't know what your instructions have been . project manager: just wondering if I need to include it in the minutes , user interface: project manager: because if you're submitting it anyway then marketing: I will , yeah . industrial designer: 'Kay I'm I'm listening I'm just trying to incorporate the logo into the the thing , so I'm playing with the Play-Doh as well . user interface: industrial designer: Just in case you're wondering , why is he still playing with the Play-Doh ? marketing: Huh . industrial designer: Just about right user interface: industrial designer: L_E_G_O_ Lego . well do you wanna just individually say what you think about about these four points and or not those four points , my four points , sorry , forgotten that . do you wanna start Andrew ? marketing: Sure , so what is it you're asking of me now ? project manager: I don't know , just your opinion on those four those four points really and how we used them . The the room is fairly institutional , but the main thing is , I think our use of this space is more just to report on things as opposed to be creative and constructive and it would probably help to have l sort of a cumulative effect of we have ideas and we come back and then the ideas are still in discussion , you know , project manager: -huh . marketing: as in other words this this room is sort of a centre point of creativity , whereas in reality as we've gone through this , it's not really the centre point of creativity , it's more just a project manager: Well d do you feel though that that you were able to have quite a lot of creative input into the thing ? marketing: d debating Yeah , yeah but that's just the thing is the quest in terms of the the first point there , the room , it feels as though the creativity goes on when we leave , and then we come here and then we kind of put out our ideas and then , you know . project manager: But I don't I don't think it means the room as in this room . I think it means like you know marketing: Oh , oh right right , oh right okay room for creativ project manager: Yeah . project manager: Well I dunno do you th I think it means I think it means did you feel you were able to give creative input so marketing: Sorry . Yeah I th okay on th yeah dif answering the question in those terms I'd say that actually there's sort of a tease of creativity because we're asked to work through this , but actually the guidelines are fairly contrived in terms of okay fashion trends , say fruit and vegetable colour scheme , project manager: We're told okay think in terms of style and look and feel and technology , but build something for twelve and a half pounds , project manager: Okay . marketing: so actually the creativity was more more of like a a f sort of a f formality then an actual industrial designer: You feel like you're caged within whatever y project manager: Okay . marketing: Yeah within the constraints industrial designer: It's like a balloon in a cage , it can only go so big and not hit the side . user interface: I agree with his point it's it is quite a lot of fun t to go and then you have sort of hit the end then go right , gotta cut everything out 'cause we don't have enough money . industrial designer: I think another point is that the meetings are more brainstorming sessions than meetings , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Because for a brainstorming meeting you want a structure that allows you to allows ideas to get tossed , to be evaluated , and to be reviewed , and to get feedback and come back . industrial designer: And I guess that point about the room not being r very friendly to that , I think that's a very big thing , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: and I think the fact that we're wearing these things restricts marketing: Yeah , sure . industrial designer: I feel it 'cause I wear m my glasses , right , and that but that irritates me right project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: it it it does actually you know affect how , w whether you feel comfortable to communicate . industrial designer: I feel like I'm hiding behind the equipment , rather than the equipment is helping me , and you know . project manager: So you think a more relaxed atmosphere would be more kind of conducive to creative thought or marketing: Right . industrial designer: Not not so much an atmosphere , the atmosphere is very relaxed , but the the gear project manager: Yeah , but actual environment ? industrial designer: yeah you know that creates boundaries to that marketing: . what about leadership ? industrial designer: project manager: I don't know if that means like , if I did a good job or something . marketing: Yeah , well well my sense on that is sort of what kind of guidance and direction , encouragement project manager: From like your personal coach person and stuff like that , do you think maybe ? marketing: Yeah from and you as well I think , just sort of acting as team leader . my personal views on on leadership is that effective effective leadership sort of gives people a certain room for freedom and delegation , but then to come back with something that they take great ownership and industrial designer: project manager: In in reality I think here the the different elements of leadership such as the the original b briefing and then the personal coach and the and then you know having having you with your the meeting agenda is actually quite a quite a quite a con confining framework to work within . And so it is leadership almost to the point of sort of disempowering the the the team member , so project manager: -huh , okay . marketing: But it's not bad leadership , it's just sort of s fairly strong , you know . It turns it turns the individual into more of like a sort of a predetermined mechanism , as opposed to a sort of a free project manager: So you think maybe a little too controlling or industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , oh yeah , without without a doubt . industrial designer: I think structure is probably what you're saying that , each individual is structured to one particular task , and one parti rather than controlling . industrial designer: I don't think there's a sense of control 'cause all the decisions have been made in terms of a , like a consensus right , we go around and we think about it , marketing: industrial designer: It doesn't tell you , you know , some ways that you might wanna be a bit more creative in terms of the process you know , not the project manager: Okay . project manager: Okay , what about teamwork ? marketing: did , you wanna comment Craig ? user interface: reckon that was a bit hard because we could only discuss things in the meeting . user interface: If we could just go up to somebody outside the meeting and have a quick talk with them , that would've been a lot easier . industrial designer: I think you tried to use the common share folder to to to to communicate , marketing: Fully agree . project manager: Okay , so to s to to summarize the teamwork issue , saying that if we could communicate outside the meeting , you know just like quick questions , quick thoughts , whatever , it probably would be bit easier . industrial designer: I think the tools that they were given , the tool set that were given to us are fancy but they don't support collaboration , I think that's the word . marketing: Yeah , in it - , industrial designer: They don't support the team working together , you know , marketing: - , - , project manager: Oh right , okay . marketing: Yeah , sort of taking upon that idea , w the way I see this i is that it's the the s the structure in which we've we've approached this whole task is quite contrary to the p principle of teamwork because the the tasks were d d sort of divided , and then the work went on in isolation project manager: . marketing: I I don't know what you guys did while you were together , maybe that was a bit different , industrial designer: We had Play-Doh fun . marketing: but yeah , but but actually if you if you imagine not entire the completely same task given to us but us said okay , first thing we have to do is come up with let's say a design concept , and we sit here together and do it , project manager: Yeah . To s to say okay go off and don't talk to each other , it's actually p sort of predisposes you to quite the contrary of teamwork . project manager: Right , anything else to say on teamwork at all ? industrial designer: No , not really . project manager: Okay , what about the you know how we used the whiteboard , the digital pens , the projector , stuff like that ? did anybody think anything was like really useful , marketing: project manager: anything was pretty un f unsupportive ? marketing: I think the whiteboard , for me , is the kind of thing I would use all the time , but it's not quite as useful as to us as it could have been , maybe just in the way that we we use it , in the sense that once we have an idea out there or while work was going on in between meetings , that could have been up on a board you know as opposed to in like in text . I know that people who design cars and you know in aviation they quite often just have a simple like fibreglass prototype and it's completely you know abs abstract from the final product , but they use it as a kind of a context to sort of walk around and puzzle and and point and discuss project manager: marketing: and and and in a way everybody's as we discuss things in the in theoretically and out of our notebooks , we're just we're actually just each of us discussing something that's in each of our own minds . marketing: like at one point I peeked across and looked at Craig's paper and I'm like , now I know what he's thinking 'cause I saw his book . marketing: But the b the b whiteboard could've actually been this kind of continuing project manager: So do you think producing a prototype earlier in the process woulda been a good idea ? marketing: Think could be , yeah . industrial designer: I think the the focus of it a lot was the PowerPoint as opposed to the to the whiteboard , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: and I think that m is also does you know hinder us and things I think . industrial designer: It will be cooler to have the whiteboard rather than the the PowerPoint , marketing: industrial designer: or maybe the whiteboard and the PowerPoint in the same place , marketing: Yeah . marketing: Yeah , because the PowerPoint was provided to us while we had time to prepare , whereas I can imagine if I'd been encouraged to use Paintbrush , for example , or whatever , I would've actually used it , project manager: Alright . marketing: 'ca you know , just 'cause that's sorta how we what we were set up to to use while we had our time . industrial designer: And a lot of the information on the PowerPoints , I don't think , you know , we needed to actually it could have , we could have gone through it verbally , project manager: Yeah . project manager: What about the digital pens , did you find them easy enough to use ? industrial designer: Yep clunky . project manager: industrial designer: Having to tick it before you go off was a bit hindering as well , 'cause you're half way through a thought , and then you run out of paper and then you have to jump . project manager: I know , I think at the very start of today I like wrote a whole load of stuff , didn't click note on one , marketing: Yeah . project manager: then went back and wrote one tiny wee thing on the another page , but then did click note , and so I'm quite worried that I've just written over the top of it or something , marketing: . industrial designer: But I think the pen is v is very intuitive , everybody knows how to use it , we don't have to worry . project manager: Yeah , marketing: - , industrial designer: So I think the pen's good . marketing: user interface: marketing: And o on the topic of the technology , it just occurred to me that we actually didn't need to move our computers because each computer has all of the files . marketing: It just occurred to me that they all industrial designer: Yeah we only needed one computer and marketing: We only actually needed one computer . marketing: If there had been a fifth , that coulda just been sitting there ready to go the whole time . industrial designer: And the computer may not be conducive to a meeting because you tend to look at your computer and wanna have the urge to check something , you know , marketing: Yeah . marketing: project manager: Do you think the computers just provide distraction in a meeting ? industrial designer: I think too many computers are just distracting . I know I I like to have things written down in front of me actually , like a lot of the stuff that was emailed to me I ended up you know like writing down there or something so I could look at it really quickly and not have the distraction of all of that , marketing: project manager: what else any wh I do I'm not really sure what they're looking for when they say new ideas found . I don't know is user interface: Is this for the project or project manager: could you think of like anything else that would have been helpful today at all ? marketing: Well , the w main one for me is that the process na in a natural f context would not have been interrupted by this necessity to discommunicate ourselves from each other . Yeah if we just had marketing: So , that's kind of a new idea for me is like just sort of that idea , well you know it's kind of s hard to keep f working forward on a team a team based project when when you're told you must now work away from your team . Yeah I I dunno I think it was quite good that we had time limits on the meetings because they really could have run on and like my experience with meetings is that they really do , and you can spend a lot of time talking about marketing: Oh yeah . project manager: The only thing is though like when we had our meeting about the conceptual design , I thought there maybe another fifteen minutes would have been useful there but yeah . project manager: I really thi i I think maybe if we'd like all been working in the one room , and they just said you know like every hour or something everybody make sure yo you know just have a have a short meeting and then just c marketing: project manager: just to have like something written down , just like you know a a milestone if you like rather than having meetings , but marketing: What are you guys doing now ? user interface: Do we know what the other ones are ? industrial designer: marketing: I I don't know . project manager: So is that j is that just is that just a logo or does it do anything ? marketing: Logo . industrial designer: The the red is supposed to represent the whatever else you wanna print on the side of it . industrial designer: You can wear Homer , project manager: industrial designer: you can throw Homer when you're frustrated , doh . user interface: project manager: Oh no , that's cool , it's got I'm kind of industrial designer: It's clunky . project manager: I'm slightly gutted that we couldn't get plastic and rubber , I think that would have been nice . project manager: Play-Doh s marketing: industrial designer: It is useful and in in in in in in in conceptualizing , in being creative . industrial designer: 'Cause like you say , it's something you can put your hands on and feel and touch and get a sense for . industrial designer: Like we were playing with the Play-Doh and the ideas came with the Play-Doh rather than with everything else . It's just , I'm just fiddling with the Play-Doh , and I'm going yeah yeah it's kinda cool . And some Play-Dohs are actually I think edible aren't they ? industrial designer: No , all Play-Doh is edible . project manager: Yeah like the stuff for user interface: I think they're all non-toxic 'cause it's aimed for like two-year-olds . industrial designer: It's just wheat , it's the stuff that your mom could make with preservatives and project manager: Yeah so to marketing: Wow , . project manager: wha what are your summarising words about Play-Doh ? industrial designer: It's helpful to the creative process . industrial designer: it engages all your senses not just your sight , but your sense of feel your sense of touch . I think that that's very helpful because it it starts to pop up , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: whereas on a piece of paper , on a computer , on a board , even with a three D_ graphic thing it still , it requires a lot of project manager: Yeah . marketing: Do we retreat to our , to continue our industrial designer: I think we could probably do it here as long as we don't collaborate . marketing: industrial designer: Can we turn off the microphones ? project manager: Yeah , yeah if the meeting's over then yeah I guess so <doc-sep>user interface: Actually that makes sense , because I remember like , peopl I dunno if my Mom ever did it but I remember other people's Moms making like home-made Play-Doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: Okay , let's have your let's get have the presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: We've got some . So , everything that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: Double curved . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: but also something that was gonna jump out at people , something that would be different , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . So I think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you'll see what a nice thing we have going here . user interface: So , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . user interface: Your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: What's the big blue thing ? user interface: That's the lock button , has a L_ L_ on it marketing: Oh cool . user interface: and then then you can also there's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . user interface: So it's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . marketing: user interface: So all the , the important keys are right at your f f you know right at at a convenient place for you to to access them . if that's too big , it's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: Yeah . So d does that what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: Oh it's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: I have one thing about it , but it's a small thing , but it'd mean we'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . user interface: Yeah , if we build rocket ships why can't we build left-handed and right-handed remotes . user interface: Yeah , I didn't I didn't think about that , but I'd yeah , . marketing: Yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: Yes s industrial designer: Yeah , I know I know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . marketing: it's only pressing buttons , you don't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . industrial designer: Imagine you're doing it with your left hand , I don't think it's too marketing: Yeah , it's not industrial designer: But we can have both marketing: Yeah . project manager: But other than that , and that's , you know , that's just something , I think I think it's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: Do you think it says R_R_ ? industrial designer: I think it does . user interface: project manager: I think it's , well , if the R_R_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , I'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: So that's that's our end of things wha project manager: Yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: That's project manager: It's come up with what we've you know , the things that's what we've what we were looking at doing , hasn't it , all seems to be there . marketing: And all the playing around is project manager: before we move on marketing: Yeah , I'm just do you wanna plug in ? project manager: I need that cable . user interface: The costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: Play-Doh is very cheap . project manager: marketing: Play-Doh won't last very long everybody'll go like , oops , it's gone . Okay , now I think we'll do this I could do you know , I can do this o on my own or I could do it with you , marketing: Yeah . project manager: but it's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we're going for the kinetic power . project manager: And the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that's inside it . And button supplements well they're in diff special colours , aren't they ? marketing: Yeah . marketing: It's better for project manager: Special form , yeah , they're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: Yeah , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: And special material . They're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they're just simple user interface: The buttons are rubber . project manager: So , user interface: And we're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . user interface: project manager: Okay , let's just save this so I can e-mail it to you . This is where we all get to I get to write on the , oops , on the board . And we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it's it's more like it's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it doesn't fit the criteria . And the criterias are , and I'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . So the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? As it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: . marketing: So what mark should we give for that ? project manager: I would give it a seven . Have we implemented new technology ? As in the new high-tech industrial designer: Well , the kinetic thing , yeah . That was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . So we'll give it a industrial designer: Well so the user interface: It's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that's not that's that's a design that's a des that's a design thing , yeah . project manager: Yeah , but that's not a technological thing , that's another thing , i that's another marketing thing . marketing: Two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it's user interface: Okay . marketing: But if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: If we're gonna have one left-handed and one right-handed then I would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like So it's a one ? project manager: Yeah . And criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: It's yellow . marketing: Is it easy to get lost ? project manager: I don't think it's gonna get lost easily . user interface: It's not the kinda thing that's gonna slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . project manager: it marketing: it's not fully it's not fully like you can't say project manager: No , marketing: it's not a one , definitely . project manager: Okay , I I think I just wanna put in as Project Manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . You know you've w everyone's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: That's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: Yeah . user interface: Yeah , during our design there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: Well . user interface: We just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: You know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Fantastic . Think we're the we're the envy of all the of all the other R_R_ teams , . project manager: I think So marketing: project manager: I I , you know , and I think we've co we have come we've come up with something new , something that hasn't been done before , we haven't we're not just rehashing an old design . project manager: You know , maybe this isn't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it's like Sony or someone like that they're they're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: Yeah I think they're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . user interface: project manager: Ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: thum we'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: But user interface: So at this stage , is this the last meeting of the project ? We don't have another one after it's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: No , marketing: project manager: I think when this meeting's finished like officially , there b we'll get a questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: Y Oh really ? user interface: project manager: Or six , marketing: Just start summarising now . user interface: So there's no way to like predict what our 'Cause we had a we originally had a As far as our financial goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . It was fifty mil fifty million marketing: Was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: I don't remember . But there's not a way to compute that , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we're making on profit ? project manager: It gets handed over to another department . When it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that's other departments it's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: But we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . You know , we've we've we've made i we've made marketing: We finished an hour earlier . project manager: we've designed the product , we've ma we've got the prototype , it's within budget , it's does everything that we wanted it to do . It's new , it's it's something that that isn't out there already . user interface: I think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . user interface: We're not we're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: Well , this is very marketable in that it is it's it's something that's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: Definitely . project manager: it's that it's , hang on , I wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: Oh no I thi I put it in one of my e-mails that I sent off . that , you know , it's marketable in the sense that it's whilst all these other remotes actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: . project manager: so that's something that's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . project manager: Yeah , and if you're not having a good time with the T_V_ , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: Just don't sh don't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . marketing: project manager: In the corporate bar that's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we're that've all just gained access to . industrial designer: user interface: I guess it's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . project manager: how does everyone feel about the technology that's been used in this ? The sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: I love it . project manager: I thi you know , I'd I'd n yeah , as we said earlier , I've not never seen that before . , but a p a pen with a camera on it , I don't think it's such a new thing . It would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it's not industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: it's literally that'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . user interface: Right , I think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it's just the first step <doc-sep> important thing of this phase is that we're going to try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . That that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that's because of this user interface: Okay . But it's going to be cold anyway , so I don't think you're gonna need it . So I suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements which have been sent to me . And then the decision on the control functions which we wanna include and those which we don't wanna include . So marketing: project manager: Just maybe it's easier if you Yeah I think you will tell your presentation as well . Fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . Channel selection and volume selection both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . So the users of forty six to sixty five years cons The make up forty percent of the market . this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . The results also indicated that about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused R_S_ R_S_I_ . And thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . And the functionality As a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , I think we should make very few buttons . Then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their remote got lost in the room , it might be and I say might be because it would certainly boost the production costs a lot . And this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . And in addition to this it could recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . Then a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that an L_C_D_ screen in the remote control would be preferred . This would also greatly increase the production costs but I think these are just some small factors we could consider . So anybody have any questions until now ? marketing: Any questions ? project manager: About functional requirements ? user interface: project manager: We've got plenty of time , user interface: ? marketing: Yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . I've do I've done a little research on the internet and not much information about it , about interface but Yeah I I've been thinking about a simple manner to put a lot of functions in one in one remote control . so you've got a lot of devi devices like D_V_D_ television , stereo . Got many functions in one remote control , but yeah you can see , this is quite simple remote control . people don't like it , so Well what I was thinking about was keep the general functions like they are . So Wh what I was th thinking about was you've got this the remote control project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and you got here the general functions , like the on-off button sound I dunno And here you've got a s kind of a display . So yeah you got a general f f the functions of the device for a D_V_D_ player or so the pl yeah f for playing reverse . So this button is for a D_V_D_ or So for every device you've got a a f a b a part display of a part buttons . user interface: So project manager: Anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: Well project manager: industrial designer: I think if we are gonna use a touchscreen we're gonna go way above the twelve and a half Euros . project manager: maybe we can first listen to your presentation ? marketing: We would have to look into that . project manager: marketing: project manager: I think it's going to it's not too much . The remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the T_V_ . When the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the LED and transmits tranmi transmits its to the T_V_ . I think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . And you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . So it's , in my idea , it's it's gonna be smart to invest in di in design and not in in the product itself . marketing: project manager: Okay now I hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . I'm the Project Manager so I'm here to mess things up and tell you some new requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: that's , we've got to design a remote which is only suitable for T_V_ . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wanna have it for more functions . project manager: another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of upcoming internet we think teletext is going to be a thing of the past . that's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . So we have to find a market which is above forty plus but which will suit our remote control , and the other way round . marketing: So is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: we can see if we can find a way between the functions we wanna use and the market we wanna reach with our product . marketing: Yeah 'cause you're you're saying that teletext is gonna be an old feature and it's not gonna be used anymore anyway pretty soon . project manager: marketing: But I think if you're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a T_V_ with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . But if I s if I see this , it's I think we're just gonna go for another project manager: Yeah it's it is user interface: forty project manager: Standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: No I think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: I think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with just two or three buttons . Or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wanna reach because it is forty percent of the market . project manager: And if you look in Holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: And besides that , they're not very critical so they don't really care what the remote control is like . project manager: But don't you think that if we make a remote which is typically made for this market , that people think the people think that's the the device I've looked for although I didn't realise it . marketing: People of forty plus , they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it's okay with them . industrial designer: I think that if we're If we put our marketing right we can sell this just like I don't know if you've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: So project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , I think . industrial designer: We don't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . project manager: I simply think user interface: project manager: that the new products we are gonna make , spef specifically design , are designed for younger people , so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . project manager: No we we haven't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: I think teletext can be can be a function as well . But only if if it won't higher the the cost , because I don't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but I don't think it will be a problem . Or is teletext a user interface: But deaf people need teletext for for subtitles . So I suggest marketing: I think it'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . Maybe we can make that another point of advantage in our remote control , if we make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . marketing: But I don't think that's really an issue any more 'cause Well might be . user interface: If it's only for televi marketing: But it , if it's only for T_V_ you're not gonna need a lot of buttons anyway . marketing: You need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: Yeah . But do you need user interface: So we can s we can skip the display , marketing: I think if you if you only l user interface: so we don't need it . project manager: Maybe c we can user interface: marketing: Think if you're gonna include teletext you do . marketing: 'Cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you don't wanna push the next channel button thirty five times . project manager: No , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? Or a joystick like ? user interface: . marketing: That's true but I don't think there are many T_V_s that can switch channels that fast . And so you would need like the T_V_ would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . industrial designer: And besides that it's If we're gonna focus on elderly people they'll have to adapt . Yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it's too much we can reconsider it . marketing: But I don't think I think if you're gonna make a remote control only to operate a T_V_ , you there's not much you can gain on having as few buttons as possible . 'Cause I think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a T_V_ , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . And if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: That is true but I think there's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you're making a remote control only for to operate only the T_V_ . marketing: 'Cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a T_V_ there's simply not a lot of buttons required . There's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply don't have a lot of buttons either . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the T_V_ because we didn't have the time to market a lot . Well yeah I think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and But I don't think we should spend very much time in that . Do you think the docking station will is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: It should be possible yes . marketing: industrial designer: So we're just gonna focus on the extras ? project manager: I think so . marketing: Yeah I think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: Yeah . I don't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: Y i I think we'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: it's marketing: I think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . marketing: And it wouldn't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: Based . I think that's a good idea as well , because elderly people don't mind if it's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . project manager: So I think we nee marketing: I think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: what do we want ? If we want a with for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: I think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: I think that would be a If we should do something like that it would be a , I think it would be really good for for the image of the company . project manager: So that's the marketing: If we're able to really bring an innovative product . Are we industrial designer: Well I don't think they have different television sets project manager: Okay . You could I think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: Should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . what we're going to do for the next meeting is the Industrial Designer will do the components concept , User Interface Designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . So just keep in mind the things we've said about the target group , requirements , and the trends which are going on

The team initially considered including buttons for channel change, power, and volume on the remote. However, they realized that additional buttons for adjusting brightness and tint might be necessary, leading them to conclude that a menu button was also needed. The idea of incorporating a scroll button and joystick was rejected by the Industrial team, as they believed that the elderly might struggle with these features. Marketing further argued that a basic layout with fewer buttons would suffice, as TV remotes typically require minimal buttons. The Project Manager accepted these suggestions. The layout of the remote was designed with the power button placed near the thumb, the index and middle fingers assigned to channel up and down, and the ring finger and pinkie controlling volume. Additionally, there were buttons labeled "L" for lock and "M" for mute, while a numeric keypad was located at the top for direct channel input. The confirm button for the LCD screen and a power button, when held for approximately two seconds, were both represented by a red button measuring three and a half centimeters in width.

What were the key buttons discussed and decided upon for the design, including any changes from the current design, and which buttons were included in the prototype presented?

professor b: So ne next week we 'll have , both Birger and , Mike Michael Michael Kleinschmidt and Birger Kollmeier will join us . professor b: and you 're you 're probably gonna go up in a couple three weeks or so ? When d when are you thinking of going up to , OGI ? phd d: Yeah , like , not next week but maybe the week after . So at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: - huh . So there was this conference call this morning , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: No , this I 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different Aurora people or just ? phd d: yeah . There were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , people were tired , I guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , included e including everything . W It 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the VAD at this point , phd d: . We probably should do that pretty soon so that we don't get used to it being a certain way . We have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency Well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . And i is the tandem network , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: no , I don't think so . phd d: It 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the MIPs , I think it fits , professor b: phd d: and I don't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in ROM , so it 's maybe not that expensive . But professor b: Ho - how much memory d ? H how many ? phd d: I d I d , I I don't kn remember exactly , but . I 'd like to see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . professor b: But I guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , t , server side . , mmm , and one of the trick was to , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the VAD network . , so apparently it looks better when , we use the silence probability from the VAD network professor b: Huh . So it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , that Sunil also tried , on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also . Yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , professor b: Could ? , I 'm I 'm really sorry . So there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: Yeah . phd d: And things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , given by the VAD network , professor b: Oh . phd d: professor b: The VAD network is ? phd d: Which is smaller , but maybe , So we have a network for the VAD which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . phd d: Maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we don't have infinite training data and professor b: We don't ? phd d: Well ! And so Well , things are not optimal professor b: Yeah . phd d: and Mmm grad e: Are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . , there was a p problem that we observed , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . phd d: Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I I I think , the number of insertions . professor b: So , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: professor b: Right ? Because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: And , if you have , f the distribution that you have from , f speech sounds is w sort of one source of knowledge . professor b: And this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . Well , there are other things that we should do but , it requires time and We have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better VAD . Of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and , but their noise estimation , professor b: back on the second stream , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . professor b: so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: But , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . So , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , might be good . Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th , maybe try to train , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the Aurora task and I think that people might , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: Right . Well , that 's something I would like to investigate further , but , I did , like , I did , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the SpeechDat - Car Italian and tried to transcribe them . phd d: but but still , what happens is is that , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: Yeah . , but what happens also is that if I listen to the , a re - synthesized version of the speech and I re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a LPC , filter professor b: Yeah . phd d: well , you can argue , that , that this is not speech , professor b: Yeah . But s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: Well , it 's phd d: eh professor b: There 's two problems there . , so so the first is that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . professor b: Right ? So it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . What if you had done analysis re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in . professor b: What would the percentage be then ? phd d: professor b: See , that 's the question . So , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , Let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . professor b: That would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . But professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve is pretty crummy " . professor b: So I I I 'm not sure I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . Well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , what I what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . And professor b: Well , you 're not doing the LPC phd d: in this case professor b: so so what if you did a phd d: Well , it 's not LPC , sure , professor b: What if you did LPC - twenty ? phd d: but LPC ? professor b: Twenty . professor b: So , all I 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , removal of pitch , you also are doing , a particular parameterization , phd d: professor b: so , let 's see , how would you do ? So , fo phd d: But that 's that 's what we do with our systems . Actually , we d we we don't , because we do we do , mel filter bank , for instance . Right ? phd d: Yeah , but is it that is it that different , ? professor b: I don't know what mel , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: I professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd a: Couldn't you t couldn't you , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: So , y , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with LPC - twelve it went to five . professor b: We were we were j It it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . professor b: And , i if you listen to them they still might not be very Even if you made something closer to what we 're gonna i it might not sound very good . professor b: and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , to understand than the LPC - twelve . So all I 'm saying is that the LPC - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: - huh . professor b: and is , It 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . And so it it isn't phd a: But professor b: But , I agree that it says that , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , a little bit , minimal . And that 's why I was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . So , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? If that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say " OK , it 's it 's in fact having , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , @ @ has the information that people can use , anyway . phd a: But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . professor b: Well , or it 's it 's phd a: Two two to six percent . professor b: Yeah , so It 's it 's one point four times , to , seven times the error , phd d: To f seven times , yeah . phd d: But but professor b: But that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: But the signal itself is like a mix of , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: So , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? Because phd a: In the LPC synthesis ? I think professor b: Yeah . professor b: So , and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . professor b: Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an LPC synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , periodic pulses . professor b: Right ? phd d: Yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . professor b: Well , it might be hard to do it phd d: So professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . professor b: But I 'm I 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what I would wanna test . professor b: I wan would wanna drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . professor b: And then that would tell you whether in fact it 's Cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . Maybe maybe , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . Evi professor b: But , other than that , I don't think it 's , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , that we 're throwing away that 's important . professor b: Right ? , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and phd d: If somebody was paying really close attention , you might get I would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . professor b: So it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . On the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . , while we 're still on Aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , Wall Street Journal things for it . They wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the Wall Street Journal , data . , I 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and I wrote a note to Joe asking him about it . , they on their web site they , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . So they 're professor b: This is on clean test set ? phd a: This is on clean on clean stuff . They they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , they don't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . professor b: What kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm the they 're showing word error rate . But on this one , I I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . professor b: phd a: So m I guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , they 're really high . professor b: I I I don't find that surpri phd a: So professor b: we W what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on , some of the higher error rates on , some of these w , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? What 's a ? phd d: . phd a: Correct ? phd d: And the baseline , eh phd a: Accuracy ? phd d: error rate . professor b: So if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: Yeah . professor b: Yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd d: The baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: Oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . professor b: It 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you can't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . , they 're I I 'm still waiting for them to release the , multi - CPU version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single CPU , which will take a really long time to run . But their s professor b: This is for the training ? phd a: I beli Yes , for the training also . So , as soon as they get that , then I 'll I 'll grab those too professor b: OK . I 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single CPU one , professor b: if the phd a: and I they they , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . So I can I can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . Is that about right you think ? phd d: we don't know yet , I I think . Did they say anything on the conference call about , how the Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be run ? Because I I thought I remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place , phd d: No . Well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: Oh , OK . phd d: and , professor b: Some phd d: frankly , I don't know because I d didn't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . But , did you do you still , get the mails ? You 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: I I don't get any mail about professor b: I have to say , there 's something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies doesn't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by Mississippi State . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . If you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . But phd d: You didn't get any answer from Joe ? phd a: I did , but Joe said , you know , " what you 're saying makes sense phd d: - huh . phd a: that 's th We had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gonna are you gonna run this data for different sites ? And , well , if if Mississippi State runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , But then he wasn't asked to run it for anybody . phd a: he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: So it could be , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , I think , that , one thing that we might wanna do The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . What could you do ? And , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , features . But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , @ @ the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: Nnn , the dist Yeah . professor b: But , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . But but , you know So because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we don't really know what the effect is at the other end . professor b: So , my thought was maybe , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a Gaussian shape than Gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . So , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of Gaussian when you take it 's log . And we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really can't change the word insertion penalty . But the other thing we could do is also we could , this this may not help us , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . We might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , " well , OK , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . " phd a: I wonder if it it might be possible to , simulate the back - end with some other system . So we we get our f front - end features , and then , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , you know , if we 're gonna take it to a root or to a power or something , we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . phd a: professor b: And just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , decides that that professor b: Well , we can probably use the real thing , can't we ? And then jus just , use it on a reduced test set or something . So , I I think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: professor b: And the knob that we use should , unfortunately , like I say , I don't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: grad e: Out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from Mississippi State ? phd a: w what do you mean when you say " what kind " ? grad e: Is it ? , is it like a Gaussian mixture model ? phd a: Yeah . phd a: It 's the same system that they use when they participate in the Hub - five evals . , they started off with , when they were building their system they were always comparing to HTK to make sure they were getting similar results . And so , it 's a Gaussian mixture system , professor b: Do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: I don't know . professor b: D Do you know what kind of tying they use ? Are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of Gaussians that they share across everything ? Or or if it 's ? phd a: Yeah , th I have I I I don't have it up here but I have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: OK . phd a: It 's some kind of a mixture of Gaussians and , clustering and , They 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . professor b: So the other , Aurora thing maybe is I I dunno if any of this is gonna come in in time to be relevant , but , we had talked about , Guenter playing around , over in Germany phd d: professor b: and and , @ @ , possibly coming up with something that would , fit in later . , I saw that other mail where he said that he , it wasn't going to work for him to do CVS . professor b: So if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: Yeah . I just saw the Eurospeech We we didn't talk about it at our meeting but I just saw the just read the paper . Someone , I forget the name , and and Ney , about histogram equalization ? Did you see that one ? phd d: it was a poster . It was something similar to n on - line normalization finally , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: Yeah . But it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? So they had like ten quantiles phd d: Yeah . professor b: So you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: N professor b: and then , So this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , I guess . And and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . professor b: You do this kind of piece - wise linear or , some kind of piece - wise approximation . They did a one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . And , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . And then they have s they have some kind of , a floor or something , grad e: . phd a: So is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: Or ? professor b: I think this i You know , I don't remember that . I Something like one per frequency band , professor b: One phd a: So , one histogram per frequency bin . phd a: So th professor b: And I don't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: Oh . phd d: and I didn't professor b: or whether it was FFT bins phd a: Huh . professor b: or phd a: And and that that , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: I don't remember that . And they do they said that they could do it for the test So you don't have to change the training . phd a: So they , Is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: I guess in pri Yeah . professor b: whether it was some , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . We 're sort of curious about , what are some things that are , u u , @ @ conceptually quite different from what we 've done . professor b: Cuz we you know , one thing that w that , Stephane and Sunil seemed to find , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . So , we 're not making any use of pitch , which again , might might be important , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . And and , And we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . So I guess , Guenter 's gonna play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: I dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: I don't have feedback from him , but professor b: Yeah . phd d: I guess he 's gonna , maybe professor b: Well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . professor b: So potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: - huh . So , why don't we just , I think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gonna be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . But , n not not so much in this meeting about Aurora , but but , maybe just , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with Michael . So Michael Kleinschmidt , who 's a PHD student from Germany , showed up this week . And he 's done some work using an auditory model of , human hearing , and using that f , to generate speech recognition features . And he did work back in Germany with , a toy recognition system using , isolated digit recognition as the task . , and he tried that on I think on some Aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . And he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a , a real speech recognition system . And , maybe I should say a little more about these features , although I don't understand them that well . And I 'm - I 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that isn't already modeled in something like , PLP . And then the second stage is , the most different thing , I think , from what we usually do . It 's , it computes features which are , based on sort of like based on diffe different w , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . So th he uses analysis functions called Gabor functions , which have a certain extent , in time and in frequency . And the idea is these are used to sample , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . And , that , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , in a a multi - scale way . You could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . So he 's interested in , Th - this is because it 's , there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , there are a lot of different possible basis functions . And so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . H What does he do to choose those ? grad c: The method he uses is kind of funny is , he starts with he has a set of M of them . , he and then he uses that to classify , he t he tries , using just M minus one of them . grad c: Whichever sub - vector , works the the best , I guess , he says the the fe feature that didn't use was the most useless feature , professor b: Y yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gonna randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: So it 's a professor b: So i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . grad e: It 's like a greedy professor b: But it 's but it 's , it 's there 's a lot number of things I like about it , let me just say . , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . But it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . The primary features , are in fact Yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , you know , PLP or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . We always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . , if you put in if you also include the RASTA in it i RASTA the filtering being done in the log domain has an AGC - like , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , auditory front - ends . , I would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . So , for instance , if you look at the LDA RASTA stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the LDA and they form filters out of it . But , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like " let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there " , and so forth . It 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: I it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: Yeah . , but it 's also , Hyn - when Hynek 's had people do this kind of LDA analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . I think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - D and that would be the closest to these Gabor function kind of things . And , the other thing that 's interesting the the , the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but I kinda like it . , eh , I remember people referring to it as old when I was playing with it twenty years ago , so I know it 's pretty old , called Stepwise Linear Discriminant Analysis in which you which I think it 's used in social sciences a lot . And what what Michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you don't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . So , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . , it still isn't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . professor b: And and and , the thing that I wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . professor b: so so that , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you don't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . And , And we 've also talked a little bit about , Shihab Shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , upward moving , energy and fre and frequency . But , I think we 're sorta gonna start off with what he , came here with and branch out branch out from there . grad e: As as we were talking about this I was thinking , whether there 's a relationship between , between Michael 's approach to , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . grad e: So , like , if we have , we have our we have our RASTA features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . grad e: Right ? And , and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . And then when you 're looking at the the , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , brain surgery by taking out , hidden units that don't really help at all . grad e: And this is k sorta like professor b: Right ? grad e: Yeah . professor b: y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , there 's a a , a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , nonlinearity that , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than Gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: grad c: professor b: so you could argue that in fact it But I I don't actually believe that argument because I know that , you can , computing features is useful , even though in principle you haven't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform You know , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . And so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . So that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . Because if it wasn't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . Well , if we had infinite processing power and data , I guess , using the waveform could grad e: Right . But but , i it 's With finite of those things , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , phd d: professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . And it and it it , not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , it just doesn't do nearly as well . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . So maybe just briefly , grad e: Well , that sort of segues into what what I 'm doing . grad e: so , the big picture is k , come up with a set of , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , improve speech recognition in that way . , so right now I 'm in in the phase where I 'm looking at at , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . And I 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , will help me to discriminate later down the line . And one of the ideas , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . And so , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . , and I 'm gonna to try to to look at those patterns to to see , from those patterns , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . And maybe maybe some , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of , that the neural net learns . professor b: Be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . professor b: So , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use P - RASTA - PLP or something for the the primary features , then this feature discovery , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . And , the other difference is that , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , spectral extent . Right ? And whereas in in this case you 're saying " let 's just do it unconstrained " . So they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . Yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . , the other one was , to , come up with a a a model , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we don't know anything about , but that through , s statistical training and the EM algorithm , at the end of the day , we have , we have learned something about these these latent , latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . Yeah , and so those are the the two directions that I 'm I 'm looking into right now . Should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: Oh , tea time ? professor b: Yeah . It 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: That 's ri professor b: We do the digits and then we get our treats

The professor identified two problems with the LPC: degradation and pitch issues. Additionally, the professor mentioned that the LPC was discarding valuable information. PhD D pointed out that the resynthesized speech produced by the LPC was not identical to the original speech, although the excitations were clearer in the resynthesized version.

What were the opinions of the Professor and PhD D about LPC?

Sorry ? Okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? Okay , we've got half an hour for this one to discuss the functional design . project manager: so hopefully you've all been working away , and I've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . kind of got to know each other a little bit and got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the The first one is that the company's decided that teletext is outdated because of how popular the internet is . Nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we don't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . project manager: they've also suggested that we we only use the remote control to control the television , not the V_C_R_ , D_V_D_ or anything else . I think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it'll affect how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . So , we're just gonna keep it simple and it'll just control the T_V_ . project manager: And the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . marketing: And the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: Well that's the thing , I'm I'm not sure th because on the the company website , what does it say something marketing: 'Bout putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: Yeah , do they Is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it's quite long . So those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , only control the T_V_ , and and incorporate the colour and slogan of the company . so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: Nope , we're all set . user interface: Alright , can I st steal this from the back of your laptop ? project manager: Oh yeah , of course , yeah . Right to do the the design I have I've had a look online , I've had a look at the homepage , which has given us some insp inspiration from previous products . user interface: I've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and I would like to ask you guys for your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . user interface: having a look at the existing products , I found out that it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there's either a very complicated one that's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you don't know what you're doing . That one's perg and that one's prog , and it doesn't really tell you what it does . It's got only the basic functions but it's the same size as the the hard to use one . so I believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . marketing: M yeah , like a lot of a lot of what I've read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what Craig's just gone over . So in part I could I could give you some of my personal preferences but I could also th add some to this which is just about sort of sort of market research . marketing: But anyway , project manager: Shall we sh well we'll stick to kind of your area for now . industrial designer: Which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right?. marketing: clunky in what sense , like h heavier ? Larger ? user interface: I think it's supposed to be the same size , but it's got much fewer buttons . It's , you know , it's very spread out marketing: I see , so it's more just basic . like the one on the left looks quite quite complicated , and that P_R_T_ p P_R_O_T_ thing is incredibly confusing . so I see I see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you don't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: I think that's a good idea . user interface: do we have any functions that we'd want on it ? marketing: user interface: so far I've got on and off , switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . user interface: they're just the the very basics you could use for a T_V_ . , you say that's a h a required one or a requested one ? Would you like marketing: Which was that ? user interface: the channels like the the numbers on thing , marketing: Up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: God , I wou I would say that's required , marketing: project manager: there's no way anybody's gonna buy a remote control these days when if you can't actually individually select channels , marketing: Yeah . project manager: what else , So don't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: don't need to worry about V_C_R_ , any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: We don't ? No ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: Yeah . Well I think I think es essentially what we're doing right now is we're categorising . We're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: . marketing: We're kind of like sorting them an Or are we actually eliminating things we just don't want the product to have ? user interface: project manager: I think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: to start with sort of a bit both , we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: Well , do you wanna maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . project manager: so so far , just to recap you've got volume and channel control and marketing: Yep . user interface: There's on and off , volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . marketing: Well , one one way I would look at this would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of like control types , so that for the user it's very clear what they want to do where they go . marketing: and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wanna be acc easily accessible . project manager: Oka marketing: For example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . Maybe they're un they're they're they're in a little area but covered up , project manager: marketing: things like channel and volume are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , very just very sort of self-explanatory . so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . project manager: well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section Have I just lost Oh no . , do you think maybe that's the only kind of essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . project manager: okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . project manager: Do you wanna user interface: Do you want to switch places ? marketing: Can this can this pl reach ? Can this plug come across ? industrial designer: No . marketing: Here , I'll just Why don't I just user interface: Just just switch them . marketing: er , can you go up behind me ? Kinda This is so This project manager: bit complicated . It'd be nice if everything was wireless , wouldn't it ? marketing: I'm all in a knot now . So I can I can say already , I dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there'll be a lot of kind of redundancy in the in the the issues and the the the things . marketing: Which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what I've already started doing is cr I created a slide in in my presentation here so so that we kind of think well what's the cumulative effect of what we've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly I I have a hard time separating separating things completely . marketing: Obviously obviously what you've just told me what you've just told me impacts a lot on what like market research that that I've been project manager: Okay . marketing: So how do I how do I get this up ? industrial designer: function F_ eight . Just Before I bring this up what I'll just say is what I've what I've done is tried to collect some information so that I can then relay this to to you guys so that it's now becomes a collective thing . And then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what , so . So does that make sense ? So what I basically got is I just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . So I'm thinking here about primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with existing products . to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . and then , as I say w we'd like to prioritise our design features from this and project manager: industrial designer: Bouncing on top . marketing: So this is what I've found here , a lot of this is new to me , so we'll just read through together . the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . So I guess what we're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they don't doesn't really appeal to them . marketing: So I think what we're doing is we're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different inspirations , you know , one is that we want something that's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . And in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people's hands . This is why I mention when Craig was showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it doesn't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . industrial designer: Is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: no , that did not come up at all . And and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wanna sell and market this , I think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that's fashionable and sleek and trendy . marketing: people additionally aren't aren't liking the appearance of their products , so we wanna think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can put that into a unit which is which people like . marketing: Yeah , so you know just c looking at what what Craig Craig's i ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wanna do is try and separate the different things that we wanna include in this . So if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . You know , it's like like I find a lot of T_V_s these days , something really like about 'em is if you wanna just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there's just like tons of features you go through . That's s that's sort of the But I I'm my hope here is that I'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . marketing: I I haven't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . marketing: So Alright ? Any comments on all of that ? project manager: Well , one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we're gonna be who's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: That's project manager: so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: Yeah . Well i if if like twenty five Euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: Yeah . project manager: well I don't I'm not really sure how much that will retail at . project manager: But you want it's somebody who's not gonna just use the remote that comes with their telly , I suppose , they're gonna actually go out and buy one . industrial designer: I think it'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'Cause twenty five Euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: It's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , I think . industrial designer: Is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: Yeah , marketing: industrial designer: so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . industrial designer: You know how much ? I dunno I guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: Okay . if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wanna go out and get , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: This this kinda touches on your comments there , David . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: Okay marketing: Just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on T_V_ equipment is . project manager: Yeah , so do you think we're we're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: Yep . user interface: project manager: do you think then voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? What what do you think , Craig ? user interface: Well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? Sort of the the older group . user interface: f marketing: It does it does fit with the market that we're sort of identifying , project manager: N yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: I think we are gonna have to narrow it down , to say let's target these people and give them what they want marketing: Okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . project manager: Just kind of young professionals , th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . industrial designer: I I think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: because that's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . project manager: You know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . industrial designer: I think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: industrial designer: I think people who are maybe about I wouldn't say thirty five , marketing: industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . industrial designer: So these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: So marketing: industrial designer: People who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: Yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision to include speech recognition marketing: If we can . industrial designer: I I think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . industrial designer: because , based on what you've go y everybody's saying , right , you want something simple . Why is that ? industrial designer: You want basic stuff and you want something that's easy to use . marketing: Could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: marketing: Like if you want it on industrial designer: but what I'm saying is that we're we're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: Where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we're gonna say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . industrial designer: anyway it's a it's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we don't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we're marketing: Yeah , it's good well it's good to get ideas out while they're fresh in mind . marketing: project manager: Oh it's something that's just occurred to me as well is if we make it speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that's appealing to people maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: like we're kind of what we're b sort of getting in into here is mating different design features together project manager: marketing: that they user interface: I reckon one problem with speech recognition is I've actually seen one of them used and the technology that was in that one wasn't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . project manager: Do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: I think it'd probably quite expensive to put in . I guess I try to define like what we're doing now , try to define what we're trying to get done . industrial designer: We've used it , we're familiar with it , but we're we can't n we haven't narrowed down exactly what the things we're trying to fulfil , like Besides the basics , I think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . Has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: industrial designer: and I just the idea is just to get everybody to I usually have a have have a design that's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . But I guess everybody does have some idea , so I don't think there's a need for that . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . industrial designer: and that power source is important because it ties you down to how long the device will last . That might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that's one perhaps constraint there . Th Okay , the basic thing is there's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . industrial designer: You know , and that picks up an input from a user , a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button A_ , so I will do something with button A_ . industrial designer: and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . It's fairly general , and I guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you're thinking , project manager: industrial designer: like voice recognition , right , if it's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we don't have enough power . industrial designer: but these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: industrial designer: I think we should maybe you you wanna go back to what the functions are ? I think that's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: . project manager: Well , do you wan do you wanna finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: Sure . Ps Oh , it's just putting the rest of it into words , but it's essentially the same thing . marketing: And like on the means b industrial designer: I guess this would be marketing: Since we're on the topic of the technology , are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: Yep . marketing: Alright , what's what i in Is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: these these aren't technology options in that sense . industrial designer: For example , if you needed if you needed to add a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: industrial designer: but I think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , and the receiver , okay , project manager: industrial designer: and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we'll add more functionality to it . industrial designer: there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the T_V_ for example . industrial designer: Okay , are we gonna restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: Okay . project manager: Well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect how long how long it took us to get this to market , so I th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about how we transmit it industrial designer: Yep . project manager: because it it's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: There might be one other problem with the transmission , in particular right now , since we're talking about voice recognition . if somebody's gonna h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . industrial designer: it's something very natural , I guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: Then you need to send the signal out , so because if you're using infra-red , the line of sight say the T_V_'s at that chair , and I'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . industrial designer: but it's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . does c is our controller is it have the option of being on a standard frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: There's there's not much specific specific information , project manager: W industrial designer: but I think that one indication of infra-red mean that you're just targeting traditional devices . project manager: In the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the T_V_ , industrial designer: marketing: Just to T_V_ , okay . project manager: is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: There's a there's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: Okay , from from a from a component point of view there's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: -huh . marketing: project manager: Okay , industrial designer: and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . industrial designer: But unless the controller's gonna consume a lot of batteries , like he's gonna run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: then I don't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . So basically the I'm just gonna just recap what I said at the start , was that the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we're gonna aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product's gonna do . project manager: Are we all happy about the idea of aiming the product at the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? and also the funct the the actual functions of what it's gonna do . project manager: user interface: I think we just say that it was gonna be the the most basic stuff possible . marketing: And is it going to include any of the the more advanced features , or are we gonna eliminate those ? user interface: I think we include mute , but apart from that I think we just we'll go for the simpleness . R is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: Yeah , it's as optional functions . marketing: 'Cause what what I'm I'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it's doesn't have that . industrial designer: Another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? maybe I could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . industrial designer: this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but I think that from a manufacturer's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: but I think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a T_V_ is something they see and something they hear , project manager: industrial designer: it's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it's basic , or it's non-basic . so I guess just to just to confirm that we know what we're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: industrial designer: project manager: for our Industrial Designer , you're gonna be thinking about the components concept . User Interface Designer gonna be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you're gonna be thinking about trend watching . So I dunno , just just to to ask now if you've got anything else you've thought about while we've been talking . Andrew ? marketing: yeah , just I just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we'll u use this idea David's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we're talking about this . user interface: just about the three buckets , what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: things like on off . Because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . Although you don't turn off the video on your T_V_ , but you might wanna you know turn off the sound , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: say you wanna pick up the phone , there's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to others or a device . project manager: Okay , so you're gonna have audio which is gonna be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: project manager: Okay , marketing: And then k I suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: Like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . industrial designer: even even if it doesn't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . industrial designer: It's easy to use , I think that's one thing that and I guess from the component point of view it's easy to build as well project manager: Okay . project manager: so yeah , I guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it's gotta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we're we're , you know , targeting this at <doc-sep> our agenda should be that we're opening the meeting , I have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . It's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , which I'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we'll come back to them in a minute after I take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . Right as we remember , I opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting's minutes were reviewed and approved . Sarah , you presented a marketing research report which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . And then Steph did a second presentation that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . Kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half Pence cost . but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . and the new requirements that it for be for T_V_ only and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the corporate design be included . So we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . Alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the T_V_ , but it still should meet those parameters . and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . at that point we agreed that Sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . Sarah , I'm sorry if I misspelled your name , I didn't know whether it was S_A_R_A_ or S_A_R_H_ . marketing: Okay , first thing I want to address is one of the points that Florence brought up , which was current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that Stephanie showed us and and they're twenty to sixty Euros , depending on branding . But I think that with the current price that we're searching for , we're well within , even on the lower end , of the of the market . So , I investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my the theme of what I was to work on was trend watch . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: I'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: I know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , I'm just gonna try to cloak it in really professional terms here . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: And this is all over the catwalks , Paris , Milan , and I'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . And I think if we're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . And f the fancy , and that's exactly the term , I'm I'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . This is interesting , 'cause I think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what's innovative is having it simple with with technologically superior fabrics or , you know , designed in interesting substances . Again , pretty low , it's the top three , but each of the fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . Don't you ? marketing: Y yeah , you know project manager: It sounds like the the covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . I was thinking though that instead of having something like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . marketing: They could be ini initially I thought we could start with kind of fruit that would suit kind of a long hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: They could be interchangeable , they're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . Everyone has a T_V_ remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . marketing: Y yeah , but I think I think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , I'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: So when your dad's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we're gonna watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we're gonna watch this . So this is an idea and I I you know , this is exactly what the research has has shown . industrial designer: Yeah , I I think we're gonna have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . And as for as for well budgeting as well , if we're gonna have lots of different interchangeable components . user interface: Is this to the market ? industrial designer: Yeah , basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . user interface: I was thinking titanium , I was thinking it's just I have been influenced by pictures of iPods , and they're also minimalist and shiny . project manager: Are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: Well it would be a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . So project manager: Perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: Yeah , but it's kind of pointless , isn't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . W w would it be helpful if I described the components a bit , because I think it would give you maybe bring this discussion back to Earth of what we can actually physically do . Or project manager: Do you wanna be next or you want Kate to go next ? user interface: I think possibly it might be more useful if Kate went next . project manager: Okay , we'll move the user interface: industrial designer: user interface: You can even have them in different flavours as well . So that if you just wanna sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: Yeah . marketing: well I was really thinking a lot about the I_ the iMac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: I I I think some of this user interface: industrial designer: you're gonna be a little disappointed with some of the things I have to tell you , but I'm afraid this is the real world . So I've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and I've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they've got , but I'm not sure that it's quite what you want . Now this isn't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control . And this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . We got to have something that pushes the little buttons that talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . So I wan I wanna go through not not just addressing the the the points that you made , Sarah , but doing my presentation in the order I wrote it . marketing: industrial designer: we can have your bog standard double double A_ batteries in a replaceable little compartment . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which I think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is doesn't quite go with the the fruit and veg . industrial designer: one that one that I think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: Remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: . You have to it means that if it's sitting there for a long time it probably won't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it'll work . industrial designer: Now I'm afraid this is the options we've got on on the case . user interface: industrial designer: and the nearest we've got to st to spongy there I guess is rubber , but I'm gonna come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but I think if we wanna use standard components , we're gonna have difficulty with anything much beyond that . industrial designer: Okay , what does the interface look like ? well push button , that's that's the one we're all familiar with . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . you can have multiple scroll buttons , this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but it's it the technology is there . And we can also incorporate an L_C_D_ display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . the electronics that actually makes the device work , we've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . If you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that's what you need if you want the L_C_D_ display . Now I don't know what that is , but I think they think it's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . ou our real expertise is in push buttons , I have to say , but maybe you think that's old technology . We can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . Or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , I think it , won't necessarily l look like a pineapple , but that may or may not be a good thing . but it could have an L_C_D_ screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company's new development of the sample sensor and speaker . industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve Euros fifty ? industrial designer: I'm afraid I don't have that information available . Because , you know what , I'm being quite serious when I say that that the things I mentioned are hot . marketing: You know , if if what you're telling me is is some of these things aren't just f aren't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , Blackberry . user interface: Bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: That's user interface: so what I had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . user interface: But I I don't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the Real Reaction company . But yeah , industrial designer: We we could we could do a double curved rubber one , marketing: I'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow say a banana , but unfortunately I see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: Yeah . user interface: Shall we wait 'til I've 'til I've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . industrial designer: user interface: F_N_ and F_ eight , did you say ? project manager: Yes . marketing: Oh I think Florence resolved it by industrial designer: I If you do F_ F_N_ F_ eight again , it's it'll project manager: Do it again . project manager: Keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: I think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . I don't actually have a huge amount of different information then what Kate says , project manager: Okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including M_P_ three players , like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . user interface: having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . I've been especially interested in the iPod style scroll wheel , which Well , I couldn't find a the picture of the iPod w only linked to a web browser , so I couldn't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . user interface: So I was thinking that a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . Like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it'll show you what's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what's on the other channels while you're watching the same channel on the screen . user interface: which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . So project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , not fancy but not totally minimalist , just pretty simple plastic , probably , I was thinking , yellow and black , just because that's the company's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the iPod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . user interface: And when you've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing on the screen in front of you , it doesn't obscure much of the actual picture you're watching . user interface: And so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing Sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . titanium would be great , but I think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . If we're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then I think titanium's too futuristic . industrial designer: It's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we can't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: then industrial designer: And the the having the the the screen on the television screen I think is a good idea , 'cause otherwise we're we're putting up the price not only for putting building the L_C_D_ in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: Like when when when you've got when you've got the screen there , it doesn't have to be anything fancy , marketing: It's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wanna change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that's on at the moment . But as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . And I quite like it , 'cause it's just smooth and hand-held and it's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . industrial designer: Do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: I I was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a I can't quite d describe it . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . marketing: user interface: Really we'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: Yeah . I think I think that's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . But they all have this this feature of this It's not quite a scroll wheel , but it's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: It's a selection wheel . And then and then Yeah , so either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: marketing: Do you think with project manager: user interface: Might take up your whole living room . marketing: It seems that that you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child's remote . We we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: That also is possible . I'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: Okay . user interface: just something else I need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? This is actually the volume up and down , project manager: user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: user interface: but it's actually the V_ to indicate that it's the volume , so we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . If we're having the scroll wheel , then it's gonna double up as all the other up and down functions . We have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . we need to come up with some specifics of the components , the materials , things like making the decision on the energy and the case and the interface type things . They want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . this is where Kate's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by Kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: The You were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you'd be able to use it as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or keep replacing the batteries . or solar that you'd have difficulty with it if it's a dark day , that it'll die on you , and no way to do it . project manager: so what's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: Oh unfortunately I don't have costing information . industrial designer: I i in terms of workability , I I think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: 'kay . project manager: What's the feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: I've used kinetic in terms of watches and it's very very handy , you don't even notice that it's there . Sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: It's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: as , you know , user interface: 'Cause it's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just gotta keep it moving . user interface: isn't it ? It's like yeah , project manager: So the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it's at all possible . marketing: Be user interface: But it does depend how much how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . industrial designer: 'cause I'm conscious that watching T_V_ can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: But I could market that as a as a a I was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . industrial designer: Oh right , okay , project manager: the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: and I would certainly recommend it , I think , because I'm not sure I have an alternative . user interface: project manager: What about the ca industrial designer: I i it it's just the way that the the the th the way it's ac it's actually built project manager: yeah . what about the case ? I think they're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and I think we've discussed not having titanium . What's the pleasure ? industrial designer: Well if if Sarah's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it's marketing: That's exactly what I was thinking . project manager: What about you ? user interface: Do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy Yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing's spongy , but actually you're not damaging anything by squeezing it . user interface: Because you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: I'd I'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that's actually possible , but I agree , it's sounds like a nice idea if it is . Well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wanna stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: . industrial designer: I should I should r marketing: I su project manager: I'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: Then I'll just say I support either from a marketing point of view I support either decision that the designers make on that . No a scroll Well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: Which I think technically is just push button and I'd certainly support that that user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: I'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it's something that we're an ex the company's an expert on . industrial designer: project manager: And they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as I can . industrial designer: You know , I think the the company's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately <doc-sep>marketing: industrial designer: project manager: then we considered some design options with how it should look , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , we haven't concluded but we're Right , So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what where you've come from our last time . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case . project manager: And why not wood ? industrial designer: And , project manager: And why not wood ? industrial designer: ? , well we can use wood . and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . marketing: can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material project manager: . Right , I have been searching the current trends , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion , fancy look and feel . , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the is the current trend project manager: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and and therefore we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables , industrial designer: marketing: but that's just a personal opinion . user interface: marketing: I think project manager: marketing: I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room . industrial designer: marketing: those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find come up with a solution that's better than mine . , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: user interface: I actually wasn't aware of the new trends in electronics project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and and marketing: Neither was I . Trying we're gonna try to talk about , what kind of how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design . project manager: user interface: And , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . , kind of I assume , are we still on the screen idea ? project manager: Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time . user interface: 'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the the wheel project manager: You need a screen for it ? user interface: you it seems like you would need a screen . industrial designer: You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ? project manager: We're , we're actually not having D_V_D_ , user interface: Are we project manager: that was one of th I I was industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: That correct ? user interface: So anyway if well we just we need to Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen I think I was thinking okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a right . marketing: Graphical interface ? user interface: Yeah like you're g marketing: on the you can have it on the telly though . user interface: yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine . user interface: So that people seems to be well project manager: You've Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to user interface: You know . So I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if or or then again if you just I guess I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on . user interface: You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or marketing: Yeah , yeah . project manager: But but imagine someone with s industrial designer: My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ . user interface: I oh yeah ? project manager: But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to industrial designer: user interface: 'Cause you'll have to like marketing: Yeah . user interface: Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be you so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and So you're either you're you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , different project manager: Yeah . user interface: whatchamacallits , different , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like from five to six you could tap or someth project manager: Right . user interface: And then there's also the concern about you know how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that , project manager: Yeah with that many options , you'd I'd think that the screen would be better , user interface: like project manager: because you could have that menu option , sort of user interface: I would think so too , like So and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because project manager: Yeah . user interface: but then again it would it does make kind of if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: You have to get a an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , project manager: . user interface: You can get to you know , you can Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can it brings up like the menu on the T_V_ marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah . user interface: and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the marketing: Yeah . project manager: So the T_V_ is the screen , that yeah user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: you can just take theirs and just user interface: Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess , project manager: Yeah . user interface: but 'cause that just it does seem like , it that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but I dunno , and then so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything . What if , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes , user interface: Yeah . project manager: and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing , industrial designer: project manager: or whatever we're thinking . are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or user interface: It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ . user interface: Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing . user interface: how do how do I'm not really Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So project manager: Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah . industrial designer: W when we had the wheely remote control , we it was on the top I think , if you held it like that . project manager: But , were there buttons on there as well ? user interface: Yeah , so industrial designer: Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do . user interface: Like , I d , you you want it to be large enough that you can project manager: What if , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it . user interface: But can't you just get project manager: Do do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , yeah just something industrial designer: Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of user interface: K marketing: Well you can have it on the settings , project manager: Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah . marketing: no ? user interface: Yeah , But , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know if so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen . project manager: is is if w I user interface: That keeps it project manager: if we can do this , that'd probably be user interface: really Yeah . user interface: So project manager: So I guess we have to look into the , like , the programming , how this how they actually programme these things , and if that's user interface: Mean industrial designer: Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote . user interface: It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television , industrial designer: marketing: project manager: industrial designer: Well they usually are . user interface: which is a little industrial designer: Well user interface: My I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know . project manager: user interface: So , but it's I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . industrial designer: Yeah , it most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . Well I guess we have to you know think about But you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up . marketing: But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand , user interface: Yeah . project manager: you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like industrial designer: marketing: and I never get it . user interface: So , but marketing: So user interface: oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ? marketing: Well on the telly . So yeah I think , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really cool idea industrial designer: user interface: because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those like okay now I hit this you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date . And it is trendy , the iPods are really hot right now , so project manager: B Yeah . marketing: Did you did you get that pc picture on did they provide you with that picture on the web ? user interface: yeah , by web research , yeah , so marketing: That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? project manager: Oh god . industrial designer: one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's in like those stress ball things . user interface: Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing . user interface: But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: user interface: so you're like industrial designer: Yeah I think it could work . user interface: Or what if we integrated the the the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables marketing: user interface: we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like industrial designer: Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana . marketing: If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana , industrial designer: marketing: which frankly I'm not particularly fond of , project manager: user interface: marketing: you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing . marketing: You know you had there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles . industrial designer: You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits . project manager: marketing: And it could the colour can fit your sitting room , industrial designer: marketing: so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have well I don't know . project manager: So what if what user interface: So I think project manager: this is user interface: yeah , colours . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is . project manager: And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there . project manager: how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just the feedback we've just got about the marketing: Maybe a ball . That you can p user interface: That's in the shape of a fruit , like a project manager: industrial designer: marketing: well I see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit project manager: Yeah . marketing: and I'm thinking how do you change the hard would you put a sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a project manager: This is just Okay . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for project manager: That see I was thinking this s marketing: Which is cheaper . project manager: I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing . project manager: And like this you could have like you could have like cherries and things around there . industrial designer: So you're holding a squishy ball project manager: 'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy industrial designer: and then it has a user interface: It's like it has to be s project manager: It's almost like your thumb is farther up , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if if you could squish it lower then industrial designer: Yeah I guess so . So it wouldn't be very big in either like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose . user interface: What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can so so maybe one you know you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and you could get you could have your choice , you know ? marketing: Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: But well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that , project manager: Yeah . marketing: and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that , user interface: Yeah , yeah . marketing: and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is , user interface: Yeah . I think and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part . marketing: If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your to the way you hold it . marketing: If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you it it just moulds to your hand . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ? project manager: industrial designer: I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath . marketing: And the rest is the company the company colour's silver ? project manager: It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like I don't industrial designer: user interface: We could promote the banana one . project manager: that's another question , where are we gonna we we should have the logo somewhere on it . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off . user interface: Yeah , I think , it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits . project manager: I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me . , so what d but what do we know about energy ? we're gonna use batteries right ? And industrial designer: we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and a dynamo , project manager: industrial designer: which is something I don't know what it is . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself . industrial designer: We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . But dynamo the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it creates energy on its own . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . industrial designer: Didn't have enough data to actually marketing: Does anyone have costs on the on the web ? industrial designer: All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . project manager: What does chip on print mean ? industrial designer: for things like remote controls , they stamp out a chip , marketing: project manager: -huh . industrial designer: But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip . And case ? I guess that's what we've been talking about , industrial designer: Case is what we were discussing yeah . thinking of like syntactic case and thi industrial designer: project manager: let's see . project manager: talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough . industrial designer: project manager: and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . Does it matter that I end early ? marketing: I it's strange because project manager: How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}<doc-sep>project manager: Hello , this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . project manager: the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . So , we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so basically I just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we've had from looking at some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , we've discovered that this year fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . marketing: so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that's really fancy , has lots of technolog tech technology in it . user interface: marketing: And that it's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the Real Reaction company . marketing: So fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: Okay . So I am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I think I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it later . generally , generally this remote control should be should be something , in my opinion , the first feature is just to be easy to use . So , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position inside the remote control . And s I can conclude like this , that we shouldn't need to learn how to use it . It should be we shouldn't need to es open a a t book and start reading and learning how to use this this remote control . So what I found out that as I said I think it's better to put more frequent ke buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . user interface: And maybe just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . And also f m because because customers doesn't like to buy lots of battery , it should not consume lots of energy . And my personal p preference is , as I said , just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used that much like settings button , like mobile phone . Usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put volume change or s ch can channel change buttons in the remote control . And if the user needed to do some more complex task he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . And also I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . For example , a sliding or rolling d stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with thumb . And I dunno but I think usage of a speech recogn r recogniser can be good . I know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . And I think it's good because it's something new and usually young people like something new . industrial designer: okay , so good news from me for me from Hamed , but bad news from Bob obviously , because spongy design , I don't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: Okay , so could you please , Fabien , open it . I Most of the things I have to write myself on the board , but project manager: This one , yeah . This this is just one thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just I just found this , that our company developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I'll just marketing: Inch . industrial designer: Yeah , seven seven inch T_ T_F_T_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . industrial designer: Okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . first thing is this will be the overall shape , no I'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can And if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which I found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can supply everything . I was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it's okay to use just two batteries and solar cells , so . the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . It depends where you put your screen , because the screen is seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . Then the graphical card for the T_F_T_ and the third unit is the I_R_ . The good news is that we can we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . So the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the T_F_T_ which is seven inches . I have to check what I wanted to from my point of view I don't care about the about the material used for the overall des ov all the device . project manager: Can you fit any for example a T_F_T_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? For example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , I can I can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: A all these things in in in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . Maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it's around the T_F_T_ then it's good , because it's just keeps it safe , project manager: Okay . user interface: Well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: This seven inch T_F_T_ screen , industrial designer: Yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: Well , seven to seven inches . industrial designer: marketing: have we decided that we're gonna use this T_F_T_ screen ? project manager: No , I don't think it's seven by seven , industrial designer: Yeah but project manager: I think it's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: To be honest , I was project manager: Usually when they say seven inch I think it's the diagonal . industrial designer: Yeah , honestly speaking I was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . industrial designer: So marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . marketing: So , what's the size of the device ? industrial designer: Ah well this is like this is almost nothing . marketing: Even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: Yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: Is it Can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: Because if it's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: A sm industrial designer: marketing: But is something that's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: W I I think so . I if the roller buttons are on the side you don't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow Well , that's that's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: So maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . , so I think we have a lot We have to take decision today , so I think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . first I think energy it's a key problem because it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . Because can we have L_C_D_ and speech recognition with battery , and it's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: Not J just a point to the energy th things . If we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it's okay for L_ speech recognition and L_C_D_ , project manager: Okay . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? Are are what Maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: Yeah I was thinking just common A_A_ cells . marketing: So if we use s solar cells , where is the sun if someone's watching T_V_ inside ? industrial designer: S d doesn't need to be sun . industrial designer: Yeah well I I suppose that I suppose that that this remote control won't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . project manager: At least when there is T_V_ you can get light from the T_V_ . industrial designer: Ah it's a it's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: At least it's new and maybe technology New technology . industrial designer: Yeah , that's why I wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . user interface: project manager: So I think before talking about the other thing , it's important thing it's the case . industrial designer: project manager: what what are gonna be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . For example for the for the L_C_D_ , if we choose to have a small device , we cannot use this a such a a a screen . Well what what would you guess as a shape ? Or what what would be the shape ? user interface: . And I prefer to is it shouldn't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . You can take some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it's it's designed for your f taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . So seven not seven but let's say five by ten it's I think it's that's my opinion . industrial designer: Yeah , I think it's feasib Well one How could we do it ? We could put the board next to , well , under the L_C_D_ and for example make the L_C_D_ be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . industrial designer: Like holding something , and the L_C_D_ to be just on top of it , you know somehow . I've I s I think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller L_C_D_ , if it's possible . industrial designer: Okay , so five to ten , I I think it's it's feasible . user interface: but I don't want to now invent something new , because we didn't discuss about it . So using some L_C_D_s we can touch , so we can remove keys and just having , I dunno the name , L_C_D_ responding to fingers . user interface: So But for now if we don't want to use such kind of screens I I think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: Yeah . user interface: because project manager: The problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we cannot do something very new . user interface: project manager: So let's go for a small L_C_D_ . marketing: So industrial designer: Okay , so Yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: A smaller s project manager: Yeah okay . something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? My first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , I thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: Seven to ten banana . marketing: Well it's it's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . user interface: marketing: what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: But it's just an idea . I dunno what you think about , but marketing: Do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Well , but If it's If it If the banana is big enough . Well user interface: project manager: Yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: I think this is not good . project manager: The screen has to be square ? Or it can be like a a shape , quite , with curves . industrial designer: But if it's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . But if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . I think that's more important than saving a bit of money on on the T_F_T_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit fatter than than the c c common one . Yeah , it should remember banana , but it's not doesn't have to b to be really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . project manager: So we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: Well it we'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: Okay . project manager: So , the last point we decided it's infra-red , I guess . You have other thing to add to this point , or no ? So , about the user interface , so we are going to use L_C_D_ . You talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: Like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: Yeah , peeling of the banana . marketing: industrial designer: First layer obviously spo Yeah , project manager: So industrial designer: w It's it's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah I think . project manager: Is it is it possible to do that ? It would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: project manager: Like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: I think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it's easy to make that , project manager: Yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: user interface: Yeah , some Something like a plastic cover covering some interface , U_S_B_ interface as in the in digital camera . You open a plastic cover and you see some U_S_B_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . So keys can be buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and when and when you open this cover it's like peeling a banana . project manager: Yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: Well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah it's a lic like a plastic cover , so . industrial designer: So I think if it's so then it's cool ? project manager: So , I dunno what you think , Bob , but it would be great for users I think , and very good for marketing . maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , I dunno how to do that technically , or . Yeah or a Yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover sticking to the to the all the stuff like with magnetic p magnetic magnetic materials in the border , so it's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . So you you can be sure that it will not be open while you're while while you are commonly using buttons on the banana . industrial designer: Well since since the since the things like the like the screen and how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we cannot b So we need that the that the peeling I dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . So , if if the solar cell won't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . So you're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: It is possible , but , well if it marketing: And a and a banana . industrial designer: I dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: And something we forgot , maybe , about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: Yes , I think . project manager: So we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: . marketing: user interface: project manager: And , yeah , I I think you should work together , s you Hamed and Peter , to work in a in a first prototype , and more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together

The Industrial Designer explored the concept of using wind-up energy as a power source for the remote control, but it conflicted with the potential banana theme. Instead, the kinetic energy source was deemed more suitable. While the Industrial Designer was not well-versed in dynamo technology, they preferred using batteries. Solar power was also considered, but it would not be compatible with a rubber case. The power source was seen as crucial in determining the device's lifespan, signal transmission range, and complexity of functions. However, the goal was to avoid constraints by adding excessive power. The Industrial Designer believed that a solar cell was necessary for speech recognition, as daylight would be sufficient for recharging. It was assumed that the remote control would be used in well-lit rooms.

What were the Industrial Designer's thoughts on the various energy sources discussed, including wind-up, potential options, and solar cells, and why did they consider the power source important in presenting the working design?

user interface: project manager: Okay ? So we are here for the functional design meeting so first I will show the agenda so we will I will take notes during this meeting so I will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then each of you will lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . Then we will take the decision on on the remote control needed functions and then I will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . So who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: F do you want to start ? user interface: Make a start yeah . project manager: You have PowerPoint ? user interface: Should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: Ah yeah maybe there . industrial designer: With the the whiteboard ? project manager: If you remember yeah user interface: Yeah . So most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and T_V_ and stuff like that . user interface: And but other people want th also remotes for controlling and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , so there's a project I think called X_ house or something like that that does that , you can integrate your remote with computers stuff . and th the buttons part would be a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . user interface: Yeah ? industrial designer: What do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: Like a video tape goes forward , backwards , fast and stuff yeah . project manager: and there's a fourth one no ? user interface: ? project manager: So the better now for special navigation ? user interface: Yeah . For special navigation for example you might have a T_V_ in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: Okay . user interface: So if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that project manager: Okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything generic but there are a lot of remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . We could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: Okay . Okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: . marketing: okay ? And here I have the results so you can see that seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . Eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it's not good . project manager: We can just keep doing that ? marketing: So it's not in theory but I I can I can say yeah . marketing: and fifty per cents of users say they only use ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . marketing: So all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have a use a real use project manager: Okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: Okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: But what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: Sorry ? user interface: What kind of task was it ? It was a T_V_ ? marketing: Yeah . Yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a T_V_ remote control according to new requirements I received from the management user interface: Huh . marketing: So there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said they lost often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: Yeah . marketing: and lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . marketing: And remote controls are bad for project manager: What is her other side ? marketing: R_S_I_ user interface: Other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: I dunno . industrial designer: marketing: Okay before that I I have some some some thing to say before project manager: Yeah . marketing: So it's better to put something very easy to set and and project manager: Yeah . marketing: and we asked this question if they prefer an L_C_D_ screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: Yeah . So you know that project manager: marketing: for the younger it's very important project manager: To have L_C_D_ and voice . And and the others is not so important but we know that people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot T_V_ and who who wh can use a lot this . project manager: Moreover th maybe those like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: . So as we say before , I think a remote control lightening in the dark it's it's a good thing . marketing: e easy to use a way to find it easily in the room and resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: project manager: Okay these are the user requi marketing: I dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: I'm just thinking of some thing . industrial designer: We want to have a no , I don't know if this is a good idea . project manager: Cos it would be costly and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . Because I received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should focus on T_V_ more where it seems that the market is more important . What's your opinion ? user interface: I have I've no idea I should know a bit more about how fast we can design it . marketing: user interface: I don't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: But basically yeah maybe I can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: Okay . project manager: Maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: If fact project manager: I don't know . project manager: industrial designer: Okay so I'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . We just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , I'm going project manager: Okay . Let's say that something like that , which could be a L_C_D_ let's say or an array of push button , something like that . So I say U_C_ and I feed that to L_E_D_ which is infrared which is a an infrared component . industrial designer: Y it's a it's this just a chip which does all the numerical project manager: Computation . We just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . we just have to define the processing power that we need especially if we want to do some speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: This will think this will take more time to develop also . project manager: To have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: No no no no , project manager: Standard button one . project manager: So do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: Ten years . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: I would say about eight months to have the first results . project manager: Even if we have a L_C_D_ display ? industrial designer: Yeah even . So who think it would be good to go for like speech recognition ? user interface: But we don't have time to market . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we shouldn't we shouldn't go up to twelve point five Euro per unit marketing: project manager: Euros . user interface: How muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . How much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: Usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . project manager: Because we are user interface: So you have any idea for a powerful one that has good enough for do speech recognition . Maybe we can we can look at the new requirement I receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . industrial designer: I just had a question do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: Yeah I I will continue . industrial designer: you say that I don't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that's it's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . industrial designer: Do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? To to marketing: Oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: Would j yeah w I I think they they say that it's difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it's it's okay . industrial designer: But yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? You say that I want , I have six button user interface: Mh A a lot of people are if you have the L_C_D_ screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: Yeah . I think the young people are th are marketing: user interface: Christine here said you have a industrial designer: Yeah . Maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . user interface: And there are another thing is that if we make something that's simple and easy to use that's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . user interface: Otherwise , if it's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: But also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . project manager: So we may just make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: Yeah . project manager: and maybe also some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . project manager: These these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to find when lost it will add a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . So we don't have to so this this is is in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we don't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: But teletext is just one button . project manager: Yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . So well user interface: So will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: Yeah . So anyway we don't have to include this feature because it's it's not used any more by users , user interface: So . If if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . Also so as as I told before it would be better if it's only for the T_V_ because we want to be quick on on the market . And then also we have to make very clear that this this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that they identify it as one of our product . marketing: project manager: So before finishing we can define what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . project manager: So do you so so from from the the Marketing Expert I think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so I think we have to do something very simple and I think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: user interface: Well if it is going to be just a T_V_ remote control it is going to be very simple . So few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: Well if it's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that I can see project manager: Yeah . project manager: Maybe switch T_V_ on and off user interface: industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: And that's all ? industrial designer: I know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . user interface: industrial designer: I know tha I discovered that when I did a quick look , they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: It's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is the previous channel which has come back . So we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and just the the traditional on off button . I I talk about that , yeah ? user interface: How should they how should we implement that ? Because could be numerical only or could be also incremental . This is incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . It's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . So if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: Maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: I dunno bec because if you have the user interface: Well if it's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you cannot you cannot cannot work with just memory being incremental . Because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it's not it isn't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . project manager: Maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: Yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: Yeah . user interface: Hey I just thought this thing industrial designer: You user interface: there is a you know there is are some with a wheel like this . project manager: So have a wheel for incremental , have the digits on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: project manager: and yeah I think this is the basi user interface: On the lower side I think it you have to turn it . industrial designer: Or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say to project manager: No , a wheel is better . user interface: So you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . project manager: Well also we have to decide so it should be lightening in the dark I think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 'S quite it's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . Even if i L_E_D_ or a if if it's the L_C_D_ feature industrial designer: A blue a blue L_E_D_ and we sell that . project manager: and do we put an L_C_D_ display ? marketing: user interface: Yeah . If you do not multi function then there is no p point in having L_C_D_ . project manager: And so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: Well if it's going to delay yeah industrial designer: Okay . Because a user could say C_N_N_ for example and it would go C_N_N_ . project manager: and Maybe we can just industrial designer: Ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: Okay . So I I will I will so I we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break here are the individual action you are required to do industrial designer: project manager: but you will be recalled to the actions by email I think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . project manager: and I I will make a summary of that meeting that I will put in the shared folder you can't see industrial designer: Okay . marketing: project manager: and and then you will you will be able to to see what has been has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . user interface: What is the folder that you put yours in ? And did it it did work ? marketing: No . Okay ? user interface: Okay what is your email ? project manager: So yeah I I'm it's in the first email so I'm participant one at AMI user interface: At participant one <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: It's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . marketing: What ? user interface: No mouse needed ? marketing: I've got a touch-pad . marketing: Do you know how how I can wake it up ? user interface: A touch-pad ? marketing: No , my laptop . project manager: some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . You all received an email with a example of our explanation of what the particular level of design means to the different functions , and you p you probably read that already , so I don't have to tell you about that . project manager: Okay , first we're gonna gonna try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these meeting tools . You can upload your documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your PowerPoint presentations on this screen . , we're gonna skip through th user interface: Can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: No , no . user interface: No , I saw I saw the file , the smart-board that X_B_K_ but project manager: Oh , no . Is is if it's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so I don't think it's I don't know if it's important . , we well , we use the same file during the whole day , and you can make new sheets by by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . And you can make new fi new blanks , and you can change the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . And I like its overall aggressive look and Well , that's what I like about piranha . , I don't know what my favourite animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal I can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: I will marketing: project manager: marketing: You know , I thought of that actually . project manager: user interface: Yeah , it's the most simple animal I know , I think . user interface: M marketing: I haven't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: Pictionary . user interface: industrial designer: Which is not as the case with with bingwings and project manager: Well , you can have a piranha at home . industrial designer: It's not very very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: It's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: Ah , it's not scared . user interface: marketing: He's crying because it's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: What do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: it's i most cats are small . Okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are through the tool training , I guess . industrial designer: marketing: I wouldn't call it training , but project manager: Okay , this is something about the project finance . user interface: project manager: The market range is international , so it's gonna be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve Euro fifty per remote control . project manager: Okay , we're now gonna discuss some stuff when well , we're gonna brainstorm about what kind of kemoro romo remote control it's gonna be . Do you have know what good experiences with remote controls ? Or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: Yes . project manager: Are they difficult to understand , or maybe they don't interact with different kind of equipment very well ? user interface: . marketing: I don't th I don't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: Yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new T_V_ because their previous one was stolen or whatever . marketing: And then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . All th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one project manager: Different functions of of marketing: Well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . marketing: And same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: And , is it gonna be a remote control that's what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your T_V_ and your home stereo ? marketing: Well I was I was thinking since a T_V_ is mostly used together with a V_C_R_ or D_V_D_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , I think it should be good to include functions for V_C_R_s and D_V_D_ players , recorders . But , the D_V_D_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . project manager: Oh , it is only for televis user interface: I thought it was only for television . So so we probably don't have to have to have the functions for D_V_D_ player or V_C_R_ . marketing: Yes , it is only for television , but project manager: So wha what What wha what what document marketing: Well well we we're gonna brainstorm about that . project manager: But , where where did it Where did you find that ? user interface: in the email . industrial designer: Yes , marketing: But I was thinking since it is useful with D_V_D_ project manager: Yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . project manager: Okay , but we've gonna put some a is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: True . project manager: Well , this the maybe is some aspect of the , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . project manager: That w Well , then you're you're the usability man , so this gonna be a very important task for you then . Well , other ideas ? How can we make it trendy or something ? Do by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: to go with to go with fashion and project manager: Maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: For the bear . Or someth something special , like M_P_ three player inside of it , or user interface: I I , no I think it project manager: Oh , well then the production costs are gonna be too high probably . user interface: I th I think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . Maybe with different type of fronts or user interface: It's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: Well , m has to be something spectacular or one which makes it marketing: Well that's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly Well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . project manager: No , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand I guess . 'Kay , so you the technical part of the process is something you're gonna look after for , so you have to think about what kind of equipment you want to , you know , you want to manage with it . Well , and that's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . The the Industrial Designer will w or the working design , of course , we will Already s said that . project manager: Oh , and what does it said ? marketing: And it said five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: Oh , I don't project manager: W Okay , well user interface: I didn't get a message . project manager: And it's it's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . project manager: You can all Or we're all marketing: Project joc project documents is for showing on the white-board . project manager: or or sh or should we or is important that we leave at exact industrial designer: No . project manager: user interface: I don't think Oh marketing: Yes ? project manager: Yes <doc-sep>As you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , become acquainted with each other , have a little training on tools , create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . Okay , so we'll have a functional design individual work with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . Kate , why don't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , I guess industrial designer: yeah , if I can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: And while you're doing that we'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we're all gonna have to be able to walk around . project manager: industrial designer: Do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? project manager: I do not think so , user interface: Are we all gonna draw a cat ? project manager: I think it's just to try out the whiteboard . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: You can tell it's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . And the characteristics ? industrial designer: the favourite characteristics of the cat the whiskers I think , because they're the easiest to draw . Kate ? industrial designer: user interface: And they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you're doing your homework . industrial designer: Gosh , user interface: A shark ? industrial designer: why didn't I think of fish ? That's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: I like them because they're sleek project manager: Favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n swim in groups , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: marketing: Do you have a favourite one ? project manager: I'm afraid I'm with Steph . But I'm afraid I take the coward's way out , and the cat's looking the other way . Now we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold we're to sell it for twenty five Euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros . would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . Now if they cost twelve and a half , you're selling it for twenty five , you're making twelve and a half Euros each . and we're to make a profit of fifty million , that's t can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: yeah . I was just wondering if that's the If fifty percent is normal project manager: Mark-up ? marketing: B yeah . project manager: marketing: And and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: Yes , 'cause our market is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you gotta know how many we're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . Yeah , that's project manager: To give you a pretty good idea of where you're looking . In order to make fifty million Euros , and you're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: And if we make Any of you use of remote control for a television or D_V_D_ or something ? You're both nodding , industrial designer: That that that's the sorta product we're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a T_V_s and marketing: Yeah . Well I've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but I also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: It is true that you always sit around you know , you're sitting on your sofa and you wanna change something , there's five different remotes , and one for the D_V_D_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . marketing: project manager: Are there any ideas for the remote ? What would it be for and what group would be be for ? We have to think about that one . Like I've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: Yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there's a lotta buttons that I've got no idea what they do , like . marketing: because I think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it's like an volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . We don't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have channel up channel down . project manager: but the I think that's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: . project manager: And user , that's you S Steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . I think there's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and I think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but I think we all have to like each other to get this done . as it says , we're gonna get individual instructions , but I don't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so I think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . then I don't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things

The User Interface team agreed with the Industrial Designer that having different incompatible remote controls would inconvenience users. They also emphasized that this remote control was specifically designed for televisions. In addition, they supported Marketing's proposal for a more ergonomic design, as they believed that using computers in a strange position could lead to tendonitis and wrist injuries. However, they presented a paradox regarding simplicity and individuality. They acknowledged that while a simple and easy-to-use remote control may lack individuality, making it too individualized would require users to learn how to use it. When discussing trendy features, the User Interface team recommended keeping the remote control simple to appeal to a wider market and using a standard design to cater to the international market.

Why did User Interface agree with Industrial Designer's opinion on the adapted product of the remote control and what were their thoughts on the ergonomic need, easy-to-learn design, and trendy features?

See , shall we wait ? I'm not sure if he's late or delayed or whatever , so I'm gonna start soon , we have now don't have much time anyway . project manager: have a little thoughts on what your vision is and on this project , so I put the minutes on the I made on the on the p the the project share , so if you wanna review them , they're there . I will do so after every meeting , so if you have some information you wanna take back you can find it there . after that I got some new project requirements from project board , so we're gonna go af go after over this later . marketing: there was a little problem with my computer so not the whole presentation project manager: Anyway , let's see what you have . The the method we used it it's not m not a slide , because it went wrong , but the method we use , we tested it w with a hundred men , and we asked them to w what the remote f feel like and what what's important . project manager: If I can cut in , is it people or men ? marketing: People , project manager: Is it people , okay . project manager: 'Cause I thought it was only men , marketing: Both women and men , project manager: so marketing: yeah . marketing: Yeah , and yeah , most th th they want to spend money for a better system , for better remote control , so we can do a l a little nice things with it , and they use yeah , they use zap a lot , fifty percent say they only So that's the most important things . marketing: oh yeah , not all of it is it on mine on my PowerPoint presentation , project manager: Okay , just talk ahead . marketing: they use it , but it's not very important on the scale of zero to ten they six and a half project manager: Okay , that's okay . user interface: marketing: and but not important is the channel selection , the the ? project manager: That's a little weird . marketing: Oh , user interface: Which channel selection ? marketing: the the no no no no no , that's very important , but w and not important in the audio settings , display settings project manager: Okay , marketing: and project manager: we can we can hide those under a menu or something , user interface: Oh , okay . beep to find your control , was project manager: That's like a button on your T_V_ ? marketing: that was in the test , the the most people f find it irritating when they cannot find a rem their remote control , project manager: Remote , okay . marketing: so I think it's a bee beep to sound it and you can find it . And another thing they want was speech recognition so they can say what they want to let's go to channel one and that's kind of things . marketing: And they want maybe an L_C_D_ screen to to look it wh what's on every channel and what do I want with it ? user interface: project manager: We wanna have a little preview on the remote control . my personal preferences is a button for my favourite channel , so I can I dunno , so I can zap to my f quick to my favourite channel wh what I so , the remote mu must see or must see wha what mine preferences are for which channel , project manager: Okay , you don't set it yourself , marketing: so I can zap t to project manager: it just remembers the channel that you are on most , for example . marketing: What ? project manager: You want the you want it to be programmed , for example y programmed f marketing: Yeah . project manager: Let's see , you you spend twenty minutes each day on that channel , marketing: Recognise project manager: so it recognises your favourite channel . project manager: Okay , so it's it it does it recognise itself , you don't have to set it marketing: No , project manager: Okay . marketing: the computer crashed , project manager: No problem , it's it's okay , marketing: so . user interface: It sounds really easy , what does the user do , what does the th remote control do , but there are quite some issues . So the things I'm going to concentrate on are the user aspect , because the technical aspect , that's pretty much covered . Where is the remote control ? We've all had it once , I want to watch some television , marketing: Yeah . user interface: where's the remote control ? That was one of your ideas which you posted in the network folder , marketing: Yeah . user interface: There's nothing more annoying than faded symbols , because you don't know which channel is this button , so possibly we could find something for that , project manager: Okay , so have it more make it more durable actually . So you press more once remote control goes kablouey or something like that , project manager: Okay , so the buttons should be user interface: so we have to pay attention not to put too mun too many buttons on the remote control . user interface: So this is basically what I h had in mind in the fade-proof symbols , locator , a sound , so clear we should stick to existing symbols , but maybe we could do a little investigation to see whether some symbols are need to be replaced by others . So what we want to go to is not this one , project manager: Yeah , it's true . user interface: This is not the final design , project manager: No , of course user interface: this is just a general idea of how I'd like to see basically the general idea . So we agree on the the part that we need to get something on the on the remote to find it somewhere and increase it the durability of of the thing , user interface: Yeah , I think it's a really good idea . project manager: The other aspects , we'll just see how what you came up with and what's possible for that budget . if it should be programmeab grammeale then we need something like a mode that you can switch it . industrial designer: And how big is the remote control going to be ? I'll tell you why that's important to me . there are a lot of technical parts in the remote control , so that's why I also would like to say go a little bit easy on the designs , I heard ab you talking about beeps and about video screens , but the material inside and the technical aspects are quite complex already . industrial designer: So keep in mind that everything that you keep think of , it has to b to be built . that is how it is done and all the remote controls work that way , I think we can just go on with that . industrial designer: Exactly , so if we make a circuit board with the the connections already on it , then that's cheaper . project manager: So you have industrial designer: This is what look like looks like if you press one button , so this is not the entire thing . The switch if you p press it then some electrical charge goes into the processor , that thinks over a Morse code , that's how you should see it . You have infrared and an interv how to say it ? a light in indication , light that you know that it's functioning . industrial designer: here again , that's my story about the different modes , if you do want to make remote universal , then the processor has to make up a different Morse code when some button is pressed . That makes it much more complex , so we really need to have a look , do we want that or not . I don't have any personal p preferences so far , except for the materials to be used light , that they are light . Like you said teletext is not not very popular anymore because the the internet , nowadays people don't use the teletext anymore or hardly , so it can either Well , I don't think we should remove the button , because there are always people who are using it . project manager: But I don't think it should be very it should be one of the big buttons for example . we're targeting young people now , because our This is a new product and with this new product we want to appeal to younger people , marketing: . project manager: that's also good with the fashion and everything , marketing: B project manager: so yeah . marketing: Yeah , and they want to pay for it project manager: They want to pay for it , people are willing to spend money actually to buy a remote that they like . marketing: and project manager: If they like the way it looks , the way it functions , so they're actually gonna spend spend money on it . marketing: in the project manager: see how far we can go with it anyway , so marketing: Yeah . project manager: And one thing that should be important is that the corporate l colour and slogan are recognisable , which is apparently black and yellow , but I'm not sure if we I think we should keep the the logo in mind , because with colours you can have a lot of fashionable colours and everything on it , which suits everybody's taste . So With that concept I started thinking , so why not just steal Nokia's idea and just make changeable covers for your user interface: Oh . project manager: those cost hardly anything I think , and people could even spend extra money on buying a cover industrial designer: Yeah . That's just a little marketing idea that could be applied , so you can p it appeals to really everyone . project manager: So that was that was my idea on what we could do to appeal this product to everyone . project manager: just I'm not sure if you came up with anything in the meantime , after making a presentation . industrial designer: But marketing: But oh ? user interface: Is it manageable ? Is it easy ? industrial designer: Go ahead . marketing: Yeah , with with an L_C_D_ screen you can project manager: Oh yeah . I think we should lose the L_C_D_ screen , industrial designer: Y Yes , I think so too . I think for example it's it's huge I think the L_C_D_ is huge , user interface: Yeah . user interface: And it costs too much to fabricate , project manager: It costs a lot , I think . industrial designer: Okay , project manager: What we could do , what could be possible , is maybe not an L_C_D_ screen but with a preview , marketing: Okay . project manager: just just a text only , not colour , just a little text thing industrial designer: I have to check that out , project manager: but maybe okay , make it industrial designer: I'm not sure . project manager: Yeah , find a little compromise in that , but What did I write down ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: I think the p yeah , the beep is a very simple thing to imple implement , just make a button on your T_V_ industrial designer: That must be possible . user interface: And it's industrial designer: whe where do you wanna hit the T_ you wanna we want a button on the television . project manager: I thin Yeah , where else should you put it ? industrial designer: In th okay , but that rules out a universal remote control . project manager: but how are you gonna use that if your if your remote control is lost , how are you gonna press where are you gonna press the button ? industrial designer: . user interface: Maybe just a slap-on sticker with a button which sends out a small signal . project manager: A little little box you can attach to your T_V_ is fine then , okay . industrial designer: Okay , then I'd I'd like to know now if we want the universal remote control or not , because that's determines everything I'm gonna do . I think we should go for universal , industrial designer: If not project manager: because apparently we're a separate company making separate c remote controls to sell to a lot of diverse people . marketing: Everyone wants to buy it , so we w project manager: Yeah , I think we're targeting everyone , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: And it's marketing: Or when you say one two i it it's enough , project manager: Yeah , but I don't see Arabian people speaking one , two whatever . user interface: Besides that , the technology isn't really super yet , so that is a problem in implementing this . project manager: It's not a mature technology , I think it takes a lot of memory and everything in in a remote control , marketing: Okay . project manager: so user interface: It's a good idea , but it's just not I don't think the market's ripe for that yet . project manager: maybe we don't have have to do all the buttons , but especially the ones that are the popular buttons , so those always fade first . industrial designer: If we make a remote control with changeable covers , then we can also make a cover for every language area . project manager: For example ? industrial designer: That's fo is especially for older people , that they can read it read it in their own language . project manager: Well , we're not we're not targeting older people , marketing: Yeah . project manager: You assume that that they read correctly and I think they're industrial designer: Huh . project manager: The most important thing about young people is that they're really sensitive to to trends that are passing through the world , marketing: But b project manager: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: But should the exchangeable covers include the buttons themselves or just the project manager: No , of course . No , I think it's just something you you put over them , because Yeah we c Yeah , you ca Well , industrial designer: . project manager: tha that's not a that's not a bad that's not even user interface: C marketing: But every user interface: that's a problem with the with the text then . , for example , if you're if you're into the durability issue you could user interface: industrial designer: . project manager: For example , if your buttons are faded , after if you make a durable remote , they are faded , you can just buy a new cover . industrial designer: but I know that the buttons are like a Nokia telephone on one sleeve , project manager: industrial designer: It works the same as a Nokia telephone , it's it's in my 'kay . project manager: Yeah , I know , it's just just a one one piece of rubber for example , marketing: Yeah . Either either change both the buttons and and the cover or just the cover , I'm not sure which which is easier , industrial designer: . project manager: so anyway , yeah , this is what we're gonna do afterwards , just lunch break and have more individual work after that , so let's see what we let's see we So you have to come up with a components concept , yeah . I want some you should do some trend-watching , because even if we're if we're gonna do those covers and everything , what people really want , that's what we need to know in this phase , marketing: Yeah . project manager: because that's gonna be the essential final design that we're gonna come up with . for example I bought a remote control last week with a new T_V_ , it was it l it's like all buttons and you have no idea what it does at first , industrial designer: project manager: and I'm total T_V_ new , anyway . So I think it should be have less or l very little buttons and maybe a second second level menu for the advanced things . Or maybe just stick 'em under a menu , like you said the the sound options and the surround and whatever , they're more complicated , just stick 'em under one menu and give it a just put it in in s in a software piece , you can menu and you can select everything you want to to set on your T_V_ . user interface: Is it techni technically possible to send a signal to a television and then pops up a menu , project manager: industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: because we're working with different types of television , so we're going to work with that ? project manager: That is true . user interface: It's an in-built menu , industrial designer: and if it doesn't know how , it's user interface: isn't it ? Yes . user interface: So basically project manager: I'm not sure if it's impossible , user interface: we project manager: but there's a chance it's not , so . user interface: Or we could use a double-sided for less used functions project manager: A double-sided remote control ? user interface: you project manager: I don't think that's useful . I it's basically an idea to overcome these issues , project manager: Yeah , but then you're gonna have a lot of wasted buttons . user interface: because project manager: For example you have a Sony T_V_ and the half of the buttons won't function if you have a for a Sony that won't for a Philips T_V_ . project manager: I don't think we should user interface: Because if we use a universal remote control , we're going to have to have most buttons on it , project manager: Yeah , for exam user interface: so project manager: I'm not s marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , for ex you have to make it a little decision between the part if you want a universal remote control that it should do what people usually do with their T_V_s , not not the very complicated settings industrial designer: . project manager: that you can usually do that with either a old old remote control if they really hate that thing , industrial designer: . project manager: but you can't you cannot take into consideration all the different brands of T_V_s . project manager: I think there's I think there is a standard for example between industrial designer: . 'Cause everybody I have a universal remote control and it can use the menu button , so I think industrial designer: . project manager: I'm not sure , if you can put some research into that , if it's possible . For instance , if your old remote control is broken and you buy ours , then you should be able to get everything out of the television that's in it . project manager: we need to put some research into that if if we can open the menu , I think it's possible , just the way how to . project manager: Yeah , then then you could do everything I suppose , because usually the T_V_s have tha that inside in this other little piece of software , so it's okay . For instance Sony makes all their remote controls exactly the same for all their devices , project manager: industrial designer: and you always grab the wrong one because formatting of the buttons is exactly the same , only the labels are different . Yeah I think it should be a little distinct from everything else , industrial designer: We should not do that . project manager: So user interface: I'll put some on paper and present them next time the ideas that I have . project manager: because we have forty minutes , I'm not sure how much time we have left for the meeting anyway , so . project manager: So anyway , yeah , we could do some i do some work now on on the design for example . what do you want , do you want , but user interface: Yeah , but we like some some curves or project manager: Yeah , may maybe something like this . Let's see what I think this should these are always on top of the of the control , so they should be here . user interface: Yeah , and since you're holding it like this , I suggest you put the channel up channel down and volume project manager: Think it's like this . So you have the up channel the down channel the volume , do we want that horizontal or vertical ? project manager: Do you take triangles or marketing: it's it's fine , I think . project manager: I think it should be I think it user interface: This is basically what people are accustomed to , project manager: Maybe we should make 'em bigger or whatever . industrial designer: Perhaps we should also make something like a flash on it , if you if it's lost , for people that are deaf . project manager: Yeah , but for example if it's lost in your armchair , we'll not see the flash . Yeah , it's true , but it's it's only has to do so when you press the button that it's lost . user interface: We could make a combination that it goes beep and that you that some light lights up . marketing: Just a light on it or user interface: So we have the basic channels we've got here , the power button somewhere over here ? project manager: Oh yeah , it's true . project manager: You shouldn't be you shouldn't press it by accident , but it shouldn't be stacked away somewhere . marketing: And user interface: What would you like to ? project manager: Yeah , I thought maybe we should move the buttons down marketing: But you r project manager: and put it here for example marketing: And you are reading from the t project manager: to marketing: you always read from the top to the the bottom of it . Yeah , that's true , marketing: Yeah , project manager: you should marketing: so it's project manager: I think the bu the power button should be on top , industrial designer: . user interface: Is that used often ? marketing: So i it's user interface: The mute button ? Do people use that often ? marketing: sorry ? project manager: Mute . user interface: 'Cause I'm pretty much accustomed to it right over here , at least in general , marketing: . user interface: but project manager: I don't think it's important , but I think it I think it should be you c user interface: It's not that important , no . project manager: No , because it Yeah , people are accustomed to that , marketing: Around not not at top at the around the volume selection . marketing: I don't know where exactly , project manager: Take this out and here see marketing: but project manager: are we gonna take triangles anyway ? I'm drawing triangles , but marketing: user interface: That's pretty much what people are accustomed to , project manager: Yeah , user interface: aren't they ? project manager: it's maybe a bigger lesser than thing . So anyway , I think this is should be the channels and or sh user interface: Well , marketing: Wha user interface: I'm accustomed to the channels being on top . industrial designer: Shall we also look if it's possible to make a rechargeable remote ? That you don't have to buy new batteries if every project manager: Well , marketing: Yeah . project manager: for that is it's on one part it's it's a good thing to recharge it marketing: Maybe it's more ex expensive . project manager: Maybe we should what what could be possible is one with rechargeable batteries for example . project manager: You have just put Penlite batteries that are rechargeable , because it's an it's it's it's very annoying . user interface: But isn't that expensive in the entire package ? industrial designer: But that's already possible . project manager: I'm not sure y I'm not sure it's if it's expensive , but just take a look at it , because it might be a very good idea . Because if it's it's useful to have it rechargeable , user interface: project manager: but at the same time , if you don't want recha if you forgot to recharge it and you wanna watch T_V_ now , you wanna be able to put different batteries in it , use it now and not in half an hour . you could make a device , but I'm not sure how that is possible with the costs , that you can put in normal batteries , rechargeable , project manager: I think I have a nice idea . industrial designer: You can put in normal Penlites , rechargeable Penlites , but they can also be recharged with the remote , with a wire . project manager: I think it's it's a pretty good idea to have like sort of a maybe a base station that you put on the T_V_ . industrial designer: So but marketing: Yeah , that's g industrial designer: But I think that will cost a lot . project manager: A what ? industrial designer: Like a like a P_D_A_ , a hand-held . You can just put it in the electricity and it charges itself , project manager: Well , we were talking about the fact that we wanted to insert either a beep or a flash into the thing with a little separate signal industrial designer: you don't need basic station . marketing: But Which project manager: It's a very small Yeah , I'm drawing it big now , but So you can put your remote on flat for example . user interface: 'Cause that means that we have to implement rechargeable batteries , a docking station industrial designer: project manager: I'm not sure if it costs a lot , that that's what he r industrial designer: . I'm not sure if there's information available on this , project manager: It's just an idea , we have to find out if it's possible . industrial designer: but marketing: But user interface: And do people actually want that ? To pay extra they want to pay for rechargeable ? marketing: Yeah , they want to pay for it . project manager: I'm not sure , you should find out if it's if rechargeable is important . marketing: But project manager: They want to pay for comfort , industrial designer: Well , this is comfort . project manager: we just assu we we could either make a separate station which just sends a signal to the remote control to either beep or flash to find it , marketing: But f . project manager: and Yeah , we have to either that or make it integrated with a with a docking station . marketing: project manager: So marketing: project manager: let's go through the industrial designer: I like the covers . So user interface: marketing: project manager: what we have is you have I think you have to do a lot of work on if it's possible for the cost . industrial designer: I hope if I have information about that , project manager: Maybe yeah , industrial designer: I'm gonna project manager: or maybe you can find out i what people are willing to pay . project manager: We are going for twenty five Euros sales price , industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , okay . project manager: but just try to find out what they're willing to pay for it , because if they're willing to pay more , we could lose a little profit and maybe attract more customers , marketing: Yeah yeah yeah . What it costs and what kind of materials that we can choose what we want in it project manager: Yeah , if you have some financial information that that'd be nice , industrial designer: and exactly , I need it . user interface: Could you post some other essentials of what people want , so that I can work with some buttons , where to put it project manager: marketing: Yeah . user interface: You seem to have information on that , I'd like to see some of it . industrial designer: Was it not possible to send emails around the office ? project manager: No , it wasn't wasn't allo user interface: No , it's not . So that's why I'm not sure that you're allowed to share documents on the on the draft . marketing: but I have the user interface: Well , I have your PowerPoint presentation , I can get some inf information out of that . marketing: Yeah , but I Here I have the the s the homepage of our internet , user interface: Let's see . project manager: Yeah , the oh , they inc marketing: and here is my project manager: they include the new one . user interface: Oh , where would we marketing: here is my marketing report , project manager: Oh marketing: maybe you ca you can look at that project manager: no , I didn't have that . marketing: and user interface: Where would we want the teletext button ? marketing: Ah yeah . project manager: All it tells just let's make make a new marketing: And one user interface: Do we put it somewhere over here ? project manager: tick the new one . Yeah , let's increase it a little because marketing: And wha what people want , I've user interface: Or maybe this is something for the next meeting , I can draw out some ideas . project manager: Yeah , draw us up some some designs of of possible marketing: I have another thing project manager: just keep in mind that the important buttons should be on top and either big , user interface: Yeah . project manager: so the more less important user interface: Well , we have decided more or less the basic structure . user interface: I can put the other buttons in project manager: Just play a little with this , put l shift a little up or down and we'll see what looks best . industrial designer: What what did you wanna say ? project manager: Or just po post your designs from time to time on the product share . marketing: what I al already said is the the the remote controls are always lost , user interface: Maybe another idea . marketing: but it it's also for people , they want to learn it fast , industrial designer: . marketing: not they want to project manager: Yeah , so we don't want we want very little buttons , just the buttons you use a lot . marketing: It's yeah , it's easy to learn user interface: Yes , but it should cover all the functions , marketing: wi and project manager: Well user interface: so possibly , just an idea that popped in project manager: what we had function that what people do , marketing: project manager: so . People change channels , people they change the volume and they they change channel , they turn T_V_ off and on , for example . That's the basic fu that's what you do I'm not sure who present that again , but those are the basic function that people use it for , so those should be very well represented . user interface: Yeah , but we could go a step further , marketing: And The If user interface: because some T_V_s have the possibility to adjust brightness , that kind of menus . user interface: Yes , but it Because we're making industrial designer: But that's the question , is it ? marketing: industrial designer: Because it needs to be configured in the television under the menu . project manager: Yeah , but industrial designer: If it isn't , then we cannot reach it . industrial designer: isn't there a possibility to do research on that , so we know that for sure ? If you rule out functions , then and that gets known , then people are not gonna buy it . marketing: user interface: No , I thi industrial designer: Then the consumer bond or something says you cannot do this and that with it . That's a bad bad com commercial marketing: If project manager: we'll we'll see what we can come up with . marketing: Another thing I want to say is that we are looking at the market for the age younger than forty . marketing: on my report , I didn't ish I didn't show it in my presentation , project manager: Yeah , project manager: shall we ? industrial designer: Do they realise how much that costs ? marketing: and industrial designer: That's almost undoable . user interface: Oh , we're not going to be able to sell it for twenty-five then , with an L_C_D_ screen . marketing: but project manager: That's all here , here it says industrial designer: No , that's that's . marketing: So user interface: marketing: we can project manager: Speech recognition is quite marketing: We can look at the possibilities for an L_C_D_ and project manager: Yeah , just look at the possibilities then , marketing: I dunno . project manager: it's supposed to be a luxurious remote , marketing: How much it will cost industrial designer: . Or find a compromise , maybe just a black and white or for some extra information on it , on your programmes . industrial designer: I user interface: Well marketing: user interface: I doubt it , but industrial designer: But I really need finance information . Even if you put it even if you put a different cover on it , it looks still looks boring , marketing: Different colours maybe . marketing: But all industrial designer: This is Philips , huh ? project manager: I have no clue . Oh , I realise if we make it small , then it needs to be a little thicker , project manager: I think it's a very industrial designer: because I need to put all the electronics in it . project manager: Sorry ? industrial designer: If we make it s smaller , less wide , then we need to m make it a little thicker , project manager: Yeah ? industrial designer: because I have to put all the electronics in it . project manager: Huh even if user interface: So project manager: in the worst case we can even user interface: what kind of project manager: Could you give me the pen back ? user interface: Yeah , sure . project manager: So let's say that people would want an L_C_D_ thing . We could let's say we have an L_C_D_ screen , people want an L_C_D_ screen . marketing: project manager: It doesn't have to be really big , but just just have to be has to be there . project manager: Think it's a good place , people don't marketing: If you're reading from top to bottom , I think it's better to put it at the top . project manager: No ? It's not that it's not the most important function , industrial designer: Me too . marketing: It's j project manager: it's just an extra thing , industrial designer: Ah project manager: it just you press the buttons on top , marketing: . But i if you if you are going to put the L_C_D_ on it , I think it's very important to use it , industrial designer: but . marketing: because it's use it project manager: How can you use an L_C_D_ screen ? marketing: But nee the function of it . project manager: if you t if you press a button , you can see it , industrial designer: . project manager: ri I'm not sure wha I'm trying to imagine myself what it would look like . marketing: so project manager: this looks a little user interface: I'm still not convinced of the marketing: you must use the maximum of it . project manager: if it's possible wi if it's not too expensive , we should include it , industrial designer: They want it . But industrial designer: Also keep in mind again , the L_C_D_ screen is very flat , but it needs transistors , resistors , I don't know what more and that needs space . user interface: So basically industrial designer: But if we user interface: can I project manager: we have green now user interface: what we have to decide now is what goes on top . Do we put the volume control and the channel control here , or do we put it on he Would we like to press it in the middle ? project manager: Or maybe we should m we could draw draw something a bit that has it on on on the bottom . user interface: Yes , but we do agree that we keep this at the centre , project manager: because it marketing: Yeah . project manager: We're not sure about the size anyway , user interface: So maybe you'd put them here . For example if you take user interface: Yes , but a big remote control probably not something which people would like . For example just industrial designer: If we have a a space issue , we can also lose one battery . project manager: I don't think if we if we even use an L_C_D_ screen , we need to , definitely . Yeah , but if we need two batteries and an L_C_D_ screen , that means a lot of space that we need . project manager: The L_C_D_ doesn't have to nee doesn't need to be very big . So either user interface: So would we like this or would we like the project manager: We either we have to decide what what people want . project manager: so if your basic function's here , we should like we decided before , programmes up and down , and volume here . marketing: Or And what about speech recognition project manager: Well you can just no , I'm not sure if we can do that , marketing: Yeah , yeah , project manager: but we could put a microphone in here for example . project manager: Just to do research into both , w what it costs and what it takes for space . industrial designer: One more thing I'd like to say , let's give this a name , and not like some vague serial number that no one understands , like with cars . marketing: Yeah , okay , yeah , industrial designer: Shall we all try to think about a name ? user interface: So I think of a name . project manager: Okay , at anyways , the the minutes will be on the on the web shortly , user interface: So project manager: so there we go . project manager: industrial designer: Yeah , I've Do we save the ? project manager: marketing: <doc-sep>It's Ada Longmund ? project manager: So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . Our project project is to create a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . So if we're the functional design , you have to do any individual work and also work with meetings talking with each other . marketing: project manager: The tool training is to try out the white board , so industrial designer: Maybe someone ha we have to this whiteboard , marketing: industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: project manager: Maybe you can draw your favourite animal industrial designer: project manager: and make a list of its favourite characteristics . marketing: So right now ? project manager: I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later . project manager: And user interface: project manager: it will be a an international remote control , industrial designer: Is project manager: as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your with the remote control . just maybe be imaginative with remote const con controls , industrial designer: marketing: project manager: try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know I suppose you know what you have to do . I I hope so project manager: And you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications . project manager: So industrial designer: I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ? marketing: Okay . industrial designer: And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer , user interface: That's me . project manager: I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it . user interface: You you de you implement the core functions in the project manager: And i maybe you will transform it . industrial designer: I I think the user the user interface design is he will design how the user will you know the relation between the user and you know the remote control so user interface: Use it . But I was thinking that he's a user 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know . So and the marketing expert will marketing: Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have project manager: And marketing: and then thi this would I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer . project manager: And when designing y the remote control just remember that it has to be a kind of international product . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros . project manager: And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the existing remote controls now . industrial designer: There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know . project manager: industrial designer: Is it ? Are we supposed to do right now ? user interface: Yeah yeah , you try . industrial designer: Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri It's project manager: So user interface: project manager: you think we have to do it now ? industrial designer: I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . project manager: You want me to draw something ? industrial designer: Oh project manager: Product manager industrial designer: Everybody project manager: okay , let's go , user interface: Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here . project manager: user interface: You're going to draw ? industrial designer: user interface: Okay . industrial designer: Yeah , it is a user interface: Can you draw rabbit ? industrial designer: user interface: Oh , hat ha rat . industrial designer: right , but in grow , it's marketing: Jus user interface: Okay . What's this ? industrial designer: What are you I don no idea , so user interface: project manager: Yeah , that was the eyes . So what else ? This was my favourite one , industrial designer: So you don't have a project manager: Thank you . project manager: industrial designer: That's a that's a fish ? user interface: industrial designer: Okay , let's try to draw something . industrial designer: Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . user interface: industrial designer: So what are you sug going to do now ? marketing: I think it's done . project manager: You know your job ? you know your job ? industrial designer: We have an idea yeah . project manager: You know your job ? industrial designer: I have an idea of my job so yeah so

The goal for the remote control was to create a unique, fashionable, user-friendly, and affordable product. It was decided that the remote control would be priced at 25 Euros, with a product cost of no more than 12.5 Euros. Initially, the Project Manager targeted a younger demographic, specifically those under 40 years old, which led to the requirement of a trendy design. Additionally, it was important for the corporate color and slogan to be easily recognizable on the remote control, prompting the consideration of a replaceable cover.

Summarize the discussion about the product features, including the conclusion on the product price, cost, and new requirements for the functional design.

marketing: industrial designer: project manager: then we considered some design options with how it should look , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , we haven't concluded but we're Right , So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what where you've come from our last time . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case . project manager: And why not wood ? industrial designer: And , project manager: And why not wood ? industrial designer: ? , well we can use wood . and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . marketing: can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material project manager: . Right , I have been searching the current trends , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion , fancy look and feel . , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the is the current trend project manager: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and and therefore we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables , industrial designer: marketing: but that's just a personal opinion . user interface: marketing: I think project manager: marketing: I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room . industrial designer: marketing: those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find come up with a solution that's better than mine . , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: user interface: I actually wasn't aware of the new trends in electronics project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and and marketing: Neither was I . Trying we're gonna try to talk about , what kind of how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design . project manager: user interface: And , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . , kind of I assume , are we still on the screen idea ? project manager: Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time . user interface: 'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the the wheel project manager: You need a screen for it ? user interface: you it seems like you would need a screen . industrial designer: You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ? project manager: We're , we're actually not having D_V_D_ , user interface: Are we project manager: that was one of th I I was industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: That correct ? user interface: So anyway if well we just we need to Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen I think I was thinking okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a right . marketing: Graphical interface ? user interface: Yeah like you're g marketing: on the you can have it on the telly though . user interface: yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine . user interface: So that people seems to be well project manager: You've Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to user interface: You know . So I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if or or then again if you just I guess I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on . user interface: You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or marketing: Yeah , yeah . project manager: But but imagine someone with s industrial designer: My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ . user interface: I oh yeah ? project manager: But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to industrial designer: user interface: 'Cause you'll have to like marketing: Yeah . user interface: Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be you so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and So you're either you're you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , different project manager: Yeah . user interface: whatchamacallits , different , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like from five to six you could tap or someth project manager: Right . user interface: And then there's also the concern about you know how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that , project manager: Yeah with that many options , you'd I'd think that the screen would be better , user interface: like project manager: because you could have that menu option , sort of user interface: I would think so too , like So and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because project manager: Yeah . user interface: but then again it would it does make kind of if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: You have to get a an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , project manager: . user interface: You can get to you know , you can Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can it brings up like the menu on the T_V_ marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah . user interface: and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the marketing: Yeah . project manager: So the T_V_ is the screen , that yeah user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: you can just take theirs and just user interface: Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess , project manager: Yeah . user interface: but 'cause that just it does seem like , it that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but I dunno , and then so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything . What if , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes , user interface: Yeah . project manager: and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing , industrial designer: project manager: or whatever we're thinking . are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or user interface: It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ . user interface: Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing . user interface: how do how do I'm not really Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So project manager: Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah . industrial designer: W when we had the wheely remote control , we it was on the top I think , if you held it like that . project manager: But , were there buttons on there as well ? user interface: Yeah , so industrial designer: Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do . user interface: Like , I d , you you want it to be large enough that you can project manager: What if , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it . user interface: But can't you just get project manager: Do do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , yeah just something industrial designer: Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of user interface: K marketing: Well you can have it on the settings , project manager: Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah . marketing: no ? user interface: Yeah , But , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know if so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen . project manager: is is if w I user interface: That keeps it project manager: if we can do this , that'd probably be user interface: really Yeah . user interface: So project manager: So I guess we have to look into the , like , the programming , how this how they actually programme these things , and if that's user interface: Mean industrial designer: Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote . user interface: It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television , industrial designer: marketing: project manager: industrial designer: Well they usually are . user interface: which is a little industrial designer: Well user interface: My I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know . project manager: user interface: So , but it's I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . industrial designer: Yeah , it most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . Well I guess we have to you know think about But you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up . marketing: But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand , user interface: Yeah . project manager: you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like industrial designer: marketing: and I never get it . user interface: So , but marketing: So user interface: oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ? marketing: Well on the telly . So yeah I think , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really cool idea industrial designer: user interface: because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those like okay now I hit this you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date . And it is trendy , the iPods are really hot right now , so project manager: B Yeah . marketing: Did you did you get that pc picture on did they provide you with that picture on the web ? user interface: yeah , by web research , yeah , so marketing: That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? project manager: Oh god . industrial designer: one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's in like those stress ball things . user interface: Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing . user interface: But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: user interface: so you're like industrial designer: Yeah I think it could work . user interface: Or what if we integrated the the the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables marketing: user interface: we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like industrial designer: Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana . marketing: If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana , industrial designer: marketing: which frankly I'm not particularly fond of , project manager: user interface: marketing: you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing . marketing: You know you had there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles . industrial designer: You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits . project manager: marketing: And it could the colour can fit your sitting room , industrial designer: marketing: so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have well I don't know . project manager: So what if what user interface: So I think project manager: this is user interface: yeah , colours . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is . project manager: And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there . project manager: how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just the feedback we've just got about the marketing: Maybe a ball . That you can p user interface: That's in the shape of a fruit , like a project manager: industrial designer: marketing: well I see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit project manager: Yeah . marketing: and I'm thinking how do you change the hard would you put a sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a project manager: This is just Okay . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for project manager: That see I was thinking this s marketing: Which is cheaper . project manager: I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing . project manager: And like this you could have like you could have like cherries and things around there . industrial designer: So you're holding a squishy ball project manager: 'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy industrial designer: and then it has a user interface: It's like it has to be s project manager: It's almost like your thumb is farther up , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if if you could squish it lower then industrial designer: Yeah I guess so . So it wouldn't be very big in either like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose . user interface: What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can so so maybe one you know you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and you could get you could have your choice , you know ? marketing: Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: But well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that , project manager: Yeah . marketing: and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that , user interface: Yeah , yeah . marketing: and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is , user interface: Yeah . I think and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part . marketing: If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your to the way you hold it . marketing: If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you it it just moulds to your hand . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ? project manager: industrial designer: I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath . marketing: And the rest is the company the company colour's silver ? project manager: It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like I don't industrial designer: user interface: We could promote the banana one . project manager: that's another question , where are we gonna we we should have the logo somewhere on it . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off . user interface: Yeah , I think , it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits . project manager: I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me . , so what d but what do we know about energy ? we're gonna use batteries right ? And industrial designer: we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and a dynamo , project manager: industrial designer: which is something I don't know what it is . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself . industrial designer: We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . But dynamo the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it creates energy on its own . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . industrial designer: Didn't have enough data to actually marketing: Does anyone have costs on the on the web ? industrial designer: All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . project manager: What does chip on print mean ? industrial designer: for things like remote controls , they stamp out a chip , marketing: project manager: -huh . industrial designer: But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip . And case ? I guess that's what we've been talking about , industrial designer: Case is what we were discussing yeah . thinking of like syntactic case and thi industrial designer: project manager: let's see . project manager: talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough . industrial designer: project manager: and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . Does it matter that I end early ? marketing: I it's strange because project manager: How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}<doc-sep>It's Ada Longmund ? project manager: So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . Our project project is to create a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . So if we're the functional design , you have to do any individual work and also work with meetings talking with each other . marketing: project manager: The tool training is to try out the white board , so industrial designer: Maybe someone ha we have to this whiteboard , marketing: industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: project manager: Maybe you can draw your favourite animal industrial designer: project manager: and make a list of its favourite characteristics . marketing: So right now ? project manager: I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later . project manager: And user interface: project manager: it will be a an international remote control , industrial designer: Is project manager: as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your with the remote control . just maybe be imaginative with remote const con controls , industrial designer: marketing: project manager: try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know I suppose you know what you have to do . I I hope so project manager: And you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications . project manager: So industrial designer: I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ? marketing: Okay . industrial designer: And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer , user interface: That's me . project manager: I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it . user interface: You you de you implement the core functions in the project manager: And i maybe you will transform it . industrial designer: I I think the user the user interface design is he will design how the user will you know the relation between the user and you know the remote control so user interface: Use it . But I was thinking that he's a user 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know . So and the marketing expert will marketing: Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have project manager: And marketing: and then thi this would I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer . project manager: And when designing y the remote control just remember that it has to be a kind of international product . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros . project manager: And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the existing remote controls now . industrial designer: There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know . project manager: industrial designer: Is it ? Are we supposed to do right now ? user interface: Yeah yeah , you try . industrial designer: Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri It's project manager: So user interface: project manager: you think we have to do it now ? industrial designer: I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . project manager: You want me to draw something ? industrial designer: Oh project manager: Product manager industrial designer: Everybody project manager: okay , let's go , user interface: Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here . project manager: user interface: You're going to draw ? industrial designer: user interface: Okay . industrial designer: Yeah , it is a user interface: Can you draw rabbit ? industrial designer: user interface: Oh , hat ha rat . industrial designer: right , but in grow , it's marketing: Jus user interface: Okay . What's this ? industrial designer: What are you I don no idea , so user interface: project manager: Yeah , that was the eyes . So what else ? This was my favourite one , industrial designer: So you don't have a project manager: Thank you . project manager: industrial designer: That's a that's a fish ? user interface: industrial designer: Okay , let's try to draw something . industrial designer: Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . user interface: industrial designer: So what are you sug going to do now ? marketing: I think it's done . project manager: You know your job ? you know your job ? industrial designer: We have an idea yeah . project manager: You know your job ? industrial designer: I have an idea of my job so yeah so <doc-sep>project manager: So I will again do the secretary part we will have three presentation first the industrial design , first Rama then Mark and then Sammy . project manager: we have to take a decision on the control remote control concepts and we have forty minutes . project manager: So what we want to the decision we want to take on this meeting are on the first on the component concept , so what kind of energy we use what kind of chip on print and one ki kind of case . And at the end Sammy will give a trend watching on what he's he's been doing . So we're to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we'll use for energy , and the material and interface . First one , we can use simple battery , or we can use traditional solar cells or and the material we can have plastic , rubber which is good for this R_S_A_ marketing: Ah . industrial designer: and then titanium , which can be which have very good look an and then interface we're to use push buttons or liquid crystal d L_C_D_ display . So , as we discussed before , we need to we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control . Still we are looking for possible technical specifications and how w easy we can do and within our pri range , like we're to in our twelve Euros or around that . So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house . So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic to have enough energy with the solar cells marketing: And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or and well the problem is with this design we found that we can't use double-curved shapes . user interface: Why ? industrial designer: it's I think in manufacturing I guess it's problematic . So , we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it's really lesser re really less expensive compared to L_C_D_ marketing: industrial designer: which are which needs advanced chip technology and it's more expensive , user interface: industrial designer: since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition marketing: industrial designer: we want to reduce cost . project manager: I want to know why it b just sorry but for the point before why not the rubber , if it is something that it seems to be light . industrial designer: And also like in if you put a it's be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things project manager: Okay . user interface: W we can use something like you know the whole body's titanium but there are some rubber or I dunno some rubber parts like industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: like this ? project manager: Yes so user interface: to make it feel better and to you know industrial designer: Like in cell phones recently project manager: -huh . industrial designer: And this push buttons project manager: yeah so industrial designer: we we would like to use push buttons instead of L_C_D_s and so we want to mo we're we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money project manager: Okay , s so simple button and speech recognition for the more complicated . industrial designer: for S S marketing: Speech industrial designer: Y yeah we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology , user interface: user interface: Okay , and still we have industrial designer: so user interface: can we still include the L_ L_S_D_ display ? marketing: L_C_D_ . industrial designer: l marketing: Seems not , it's either L_C_D_ or push-button . industrial designer: So user interface: No , industrial designer: it's like a user interface: it's not gonna be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus . industrial designer: Yeah maybe maybe we can see depending on how we'll come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and user interface: Okay , so let's try it , let's t industrial designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or or something so we want to reduce the cost on display marketing: The L_C_D_ would industrial designer: or this inter marketing: The display would only be display and not touch sensitive you mean . user interface: Yeah , yeah , it's it's not gonna be a touch pad , just a display for giving you information . Yeah , we're to go for li and now I think we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteries marketing: Okay . marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just the finding it basically , instead of clapping why not just be ask . industrial designer: Yeah , that's then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it m maybe at least five , six people want to use it so so how to how to define our re speech recognition marketing: If we're going for more speaker independent then it would be like again cumbersome and we need really m more technology project manager: Okay , industrial designer: and so project manager: for the location . industrial designer: Yeah , if if everybody in the house n to locate then we're to go for some speaker independent technology or something . So let's now go to the you don't have more question ? industrial designer: marketing: No , it's okay . user interface: But still L_S_D_'s already quite nice , marketing: L_C_D_ . user interface: L_C_ marketing: L_S_D_ is something else , industrial designer: marketing: and it's quite nice as well . user interface: have a look at this project manager: industrial designer: user interface: no it's yeah . Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface , but for possible instruction or user's manual and all the complex things that come together with your T_V_ and remote controls . We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttons marketing: user interface: and we got explanation for every button industrial designer: user interface: and you can use your time and it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and the L_C_D_ is going to be somewhere here and go back button , I don't know really where it is , maybe one of this buttons , and power on and off I I don't remember project manager: . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no ? I can see nothing . industrial designer: user interface: And it's got just few buttons , quite low looking , and all this stuff we already we already discussed . marketing: Do you think it can come in several colours ? user interface: And everyone's gonna be satisfied . marketing: Or did the user interface: I would make a backlight of the L_C_D_ screen with different colours . marketing: Yeah , well they like something which is user interface: Okay , so let's remember there's a Nokia phone which changeable panels . marketing: yeah , okay , user interface: Do you like it ? marketing: so that would be the option . I don't know I don't have a Nokia phone , project manager: industrial designer: But it's marketing: but I don't use that but again , I might user interface: That's why you don't have it . marketing: bu but project manager: industrial designer: But it would be expensive , no ? If you use colour L_C_D_ . industrial designer: Maybe we can just if users want more colours they can pay more money to get this the shapes and they can have different assembly . industrial designer: So users have different they have their own interests , colour interests and so project manager: So ? user interface: project manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we if you want o more colours on L_C_D_ , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Okay , what there's one more decisi one more solution in fact , 'cause there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are , like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around , like what colour is around , and depending on the temperature , industrial designer: Lights , yeah . project manager: But it can be in maybe in an a gradable version , user interface: - , - , project manager: but industrial designer: Yeah . Those for which the remote control is is to be something useful I'm going to talk about this later but and those for which is something that that that is specific to them so it it's like a signature . project manager: Okay marketing: project manager: and you think that we don't have to make to make them pay more because of o or this is industrial designer: marketing: I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that . project manager: so i it's not a s base service industrial designer: marketing: No no . industrial designer: But those people will be really few , no ? So like we can those marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends . project manager: maybe that's if that it's a selling point maybe it has to be the base . But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time . user interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ? marketing: Oh , you don't ? Yeah . You don't have your remo user interface: No ? industrial designer: marketing: Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod . marketing: It has this distinctive look and feel and look which people seems to like user interface: Okay . marketing: just because it's a colour that we don't usually see in a remote control . Hand light , marketing: glow in the dark , industrial designer: project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: Yeah marketing: so industrial designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or something marketing: user interface: user interface: but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ? project manager: user interface: And industrial designer: user interface: I dunno marketing: user interface: that's a question to you and to to marketing: Well so I heard that it seems that speech recognition is something that can be done so that's the smartness of the thing . marketing: Currently we don't have guns with speech recognition or beer cans with speech recognition industrial designer: marketing: but we may have remote controls with speech recognition . Are are you saying here that the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father doesn't want . industrial designer: that that could be feasible I guess , like So since we have we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition so we can use marketing: Okay . marketing: But for instance th I I'm thinking about the other particularity that the the remote control could have . S since it it knows who is using it , it might also record the kind of channels you are u more often using and levels of volumes that you're more often things like that industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: and provide you ways of using them , I dunno , somehow , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: but industrial designer: it's marketing: that might also be a good sales pitch again . Okay , so I'm going to talk about trends and I hope this can help us to to understand l how we should design our remote control . So first maybe just a small recap on how how do we watch trends so it's not so simple you might think that it's easy but it's not so simple . Anyway these days the best source of information is the web as you know , so have to to go often on the web and look at what the others are doing , and ask real people who are using real remote controls every day or any other tool that is similar to a remote control which basically is a small device that people have with them , always , like a phone . Of course those tha d who are watching the trends are also have also to be inspired because in fact they're not only watching the trends , they're inventing it , they're creating the trend . This is more risky because you're not following the trend , project manager: marketing: you try to invent it , which means either you succeed and you make a lot of money or you don't and you're out of business . to be to be quick there's a lot of words here but basically there are in in the market of of remote controls there are three aspects that we should very pay much attention to . The first one , which seems to be the most important one , is that it has to be fancy , it has to have a fancy look and feel . Strangely enough it's more important to be fancy than to be wi and now that's the second thing it has to be , it has to be technologically i innovative , industrial designer: marketing: it has to be new with some of new technology inside and and this is also more important than the last thing which we w may think that would have been the most important , which is that it should be easy to use and it should be easy to use as a remote control . So as you see it first have to be very nice , s something that people are proud of that i they can be id identified with and and then something that contains very novel stuff that they can talk about with their friends , huh , mine has this and not yours . And finally of course it has to be useful as a remote control but it seems that it's not so important that it's useful as a remote control . If we look back and not look at only remote controls I think it's important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan , well , it seems that this year things should have a fruit and vegetable way of of look or feel project manager: industrial designer: marketing: or so . And if we co we compare to last year , now it has to be spongy , industrial designer: . Well project manager: industrial designer: Yeah marketing: this so so I think i industrial designer: kind of maybe marketing: When we were talking about rubber , industrial designer: Yeah it marketing: I think the rubber aspect might be important because it's what is probably more feasible in terms of sponginess . marketing: So project manager: It seems to be marketing: Think more of something in the colours of like fruit and vegetables and spongy , industrial designer: Fruit . Even shape ? marketing: as a even in the shape it has to be more round and more look natural somehow . marketing: So that's what people seem to yeah i I know it's quite far from what you thought project manager: Sorry . industrial designer: marketing: but that's that's fashion and project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Okay . project manager: you have questions ? industrial designer: So these abilities are mainly ad addressed by young people ? Or it's marketing: These I'm sorry . industrial designer: This you you so did you marketing: Yeah , yeah we have people listening to the trends everywhere in the world , of course , industrial designer: Where ? Oh . marketing: as you know our company is quite big and so I'm just asking them what are the current trends according to them when they go in the stores and when they ask their friends industrial designer: It's not from . marketing: The what we industrial designer: Yeah but some materials n they're to be they're to be something like solid like they can't be really spongy marketing: Sure . marketing: We have to I think we have to have the look of fruit and vegetables industrial designer: yeah , yeah sponge , yeah yeah at least that's marketing: but we still have to put our chips inside , so of course . We can have t colours or this shape marketing: Yeah , I think in the colours and in the the kind of material . industrial designer: or at least marketing: If if it's something like rubber made or I think it it's also going to be good . now you have to go straight on this individual action which i which are for Rama wil design , industrial designer: Look and feel de project manager: Mark the user interface design , and Sammy the product evaluation . industrial designer: So , can we highlight the specific features of our project manager: Yeah you're right , you have to industrial designer: yeah , so so we want the speech recogniser and we want some kind of buttons and we want some themes like fruits or vegetables , project manager: So industrial designer: that's project manager: you say s industrial designer: we want to follow general trend . industrial designer: So , do you think marketing: No , we don't have to , user interface: So we have to for project manager: No . marketing: industrial designer: So what about location and these things , people are really interesting on those features ? Or they really like They more want these fancy features marketing: I think i industrial designer: like marketing: yeah i it's again in this what I said first it has to be fancy so I think if nobody else pro provides currently a remote control with that kind of stuff and if we can provide it I think it's a good sell for us project manager: Do we take titanium smelling like fruit , or do we make spongy fruity-like marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: yeah at least like we can make banana or project manager: Don't you say that you cannot do double shape curved shape user interface: But Doub double-curved . industrial designer: and and s we're to see the whether rubber is expensive user interface: Okay , okay . industrial designer: we have only the plastic or the the chippy yeah fibre chips or user interface: We'll see . I I really don't like this modelling clay 'cause you know it makes some for for industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: So still we want to keep L_C_D_ ? Or project manager: I think it's what we say , that we have an an L_C_D_ with information . marketing: The thing is that if we want to have as he says if we want to have a small number of buttons we need to have a kind of output that says currently what their actions are . industrial designer: and we just stick with two batteries so it's not any solar or marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah j yeah , marketing: Classical , we stay classical in that we don't reinvent the wheel . marketing: Anyway it's very in general I think people change T_V_ more often than batteries of their remote control

The industrial designer and the user interface designer had different roles in the design process. The industrial designer focused on the functionality and implementation of the remote control, while the user interface designer was responsible for the appearance and user experience. The industrial designer suggested using custom designs for certain parts, such as the case and circuit board, while using standard parts for others, like the buttons and wheels. Materials like rubber, plastic, wood, and titanium were considered, with titanium being less preferred. The industrial designer recommended batteries over solar cells for energy reliability. The user interface designer proposed adding an LCD display for output, despite the industrial designer's concerns about cost.

What were the opinions and conclusions of the industrial designer and user interface designer regarding the work division, difference between their roles, and component design in the discussion?

Okay the agenda we're gonna do an opening and then I'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed , then we'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . So , starting off with the last the last one , oh I don't have it here , but we talked about energy , we're gonna use a kinetic battery , we want to use a simple chip , because we're not gonna need a a shuffle , we're gonna need a scroll , we're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that's curved and we're using push buttons with a supplement of an on-screen menu . user interface: Right , do you wanna start ? industrial designer: Right , well we made three different prototypes and I guess we'll start with with this one . it's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and it's easily adaptable to either hand . You can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even there's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . We have our up and down buttons , which are also gonna be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . If you push if you're just pushing these normally , they're the menu buttons , if the volume buttons rather . If we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your T_V_ channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . industrial designer: or shall I present the Martian ? user interface: Okay , project manager: The little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: What We call that one the rhombus , marketing: I could project manager: The v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: the rhombus . user interface: this one is known as the potato , it's industrial designer: user interface: it's a marketing: user interface: how can I present it ? It's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . the red ones are for changing channels , channel up and channel down and that's moves between your favourite channels that you've selected . this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button to select and that's basically it , that's the potato . project manager: on , off ? user interface: that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: Okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: Yeah we turn it off . marketing: Could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your T_V_ off . project manager: industrial designer: And then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . So , that's for your consideration as well , plus it's an interesting talking point to have standing up . industrial designer: We figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if I made the bot the bottom flat . marketing: Sorry , what's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: the menu select button . basically , in terms of making decisions , what we'd need to do is first of all decide on a form which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wanna put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . industrial designer: We were we were thinking that normally we'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we'd have one version that's a bit toned down , project manager: 'kay . Yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: Would Yeah , but we don't want it to look like a kids' toy . I don't know if you picked up your email , but the f the feature that we considered for it not getting lost . Well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it's not just like another piece of technology around your house . industrial designer: So we're we're not thinking that it's gonna be as critical to have the loss marketing: But if it's like under covers or like in a couch you still can't see it . project manager: It's really Would it be very difficult to just have an external device that like I dunno , you tape to your to your T_V_ that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? Do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: I think user interface: I think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: user interface: because if your if your remote's lost it's probably under the settee and in that case you can't you can't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: . user interface: s so it's I'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: That's true , 'kay . user interface: and then I wonder if it's if it's more just a gimmick then anything else . ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: There might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . Okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you're right , they're gonna stick out , but industrial designer: So d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? . marketing: I feel like this is simil or it's sort of what already exists so if we're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you're init I'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it's like comfortable and like not different . I sort of like this one , like I I don't know why , it just it's like small but still sort of like cute looking , I dunno . But I also like the b the side buttons on that one , like I think that's kind of neat . marketing: But I dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: Could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? So then w we wouldn't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: yeah , user interface: Yeah , it's possible , yeah , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: why don't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you've developed some ? marketing: Well do we w like I think we're supposed to have one that we do it for . marketing: That was industrial designer: So where marketing: I was a little vague on what exactly I'm supposed to do , but let me I have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . Do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: No , I actually don't have like a PowerPointy thing , project manager: Okay . project manager: It's kind of like like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: Ooh . project manager: Oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: It's like a deformed foot , I dunno . project manager: There it could have a stem like that , 'cause I do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? I like the idea of the project manager: I think I'm leaning towards the potato . in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: . industrial designer: Well that on the iPod , for example , you just every time you wanna go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: But that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: This is , it's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . Well , as long as we have that in mind as we're designing it still , 'kay . marketing: Okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: The potato ? Are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: Potato . marketing: So basically what we need to do is some of the things that we've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . marketing: So what we sort of wanna do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then I'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . marketing: So we'll just go through them one at a time and we'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we've created conforms to the following criteria . So like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so I'm gonna say it's like a three . marketing: What does each of you project manager: I I kind of think it's it's unique enough that I'd give it a one or a two . Alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? I think it's extremely functional , I'm gonna give it a one . marketing: One ? user interface: I think it's it's functional , it's also pretty basic , so I'll give it a two . I think it'll get everything done , I think it might be a little confusing at first , I don't know if that's gonna be a later one . Well there's some other ones , I will address that , project manager: Okay , then I'm gonna give it a two . Not really , not so much , 'cause we we don't have the L_C_D_ screen , we don't have fancy chip . Other than what it looks like , I dunno if it's really project manager: Well , the kinetic battery . But it project manager: But they'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it's there . marketing: And if it's made of like latex , that whole idea , that's pretty cool . 'Cause it we could've picked a lot of features that would've made it really industrial designer: Yeah . I I would say that it's Yeah , like fancy versus creative it's it's different . Everyone else ? user interface: I'd say it's technologically it's not it's not unique , it's it's just it is just pushbuttons , so I I'd give it a four . marketing: Next , is it easy to use ? Just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: 'kay . we next wanna see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it's made of latex or rubber I it's spongy all the way . user interface: Yeah marketing: Iain , what do you give it ? user interface: I'd I'd give it a one . marketing: Alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: . marketing: Well , is it gonna be yellow ? industrial designer: It it might be , 'cause that's our corporate colour , isn't it ? project manager: That's right , yeah , corporate colour , we didn't keep that in user interface: Yeah . project manager: if we I know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that's more fruity . user interface: Yeah , project manager: and can we have like an R_R_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: If we had a yellow Sure . industrial designer: So marketing: Alright , so I think it it's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so I think it's pretty fruity . industrial designer: That's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: What are what's everyone's numbers ? industrial designer: one . industrial designer: marketing: Alright , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? Remember earlier we discussed that people don't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . I think we really took that into account a lot , so I'm gonna give it a one . marketing: Okay , also we talked earlier about R_S_I_ and wanting to prevent any sort of like Carpal Tunnely kind of thing . Do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? I think I'll give it a two , 'cause I almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gonna happen . project manager: And if it's repetitive movement it is gonna be only four buttons that you're constantly pushing , but marketing: worth the risk , I think . project manager: I like how it fits in the hand though so I I'd go with a two . Because older people that aren't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: . I just got mine , I still haven't read the instruction book and I'm doing okay , so project manager: . industrial designer: The menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but I think if it's one it's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you'll have it afterwards . user interface: I think it it's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: Oh , good point . user interface: once you've , yeah once you'd learned how to use it , I think it is a lot easier . It's a pretty high learning curve , it'll be easy once you've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: Yeah . Alright , also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we're not addressing that at all , so project manager: We we industrial designer: project manager: I think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: Okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? I'm gonna I'm gonna give it a four , 'cause I think that you can still if it's in between somewhere where you can't see it , you're kind of not gonna find it , project manager: industrial designer: I'd say I'd give it a three , I guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . user interface: I'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . marketing: Alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: Simple to use or simple in design ? Do you know ? marketing: I think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we're gonna look at . marketing: it like wants to be simple but it's not like totally totally simple , so I'm gonna give it a two . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: It's hot , it's a mango , come on . marketing: how fashionable can you make a remote ? I think it's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . user interface: industrial designer: I don't think it's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: I do like the little Martian one . marketing: And does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? Just that it would se serve our audience . marketing: Alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we didn't talk about ? project manager: Well we didn't we didn't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let's let's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an R_R_ on it . marketing: And so we're gonna do that , so it will address it , project manager: I have an Excel sheet that we're actually gonna calculate the cost , so let me exit out of this first . marketing: Well don't we need plastic , and industrial designer: No , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . project manager: The wood ? industrial designer: Oh , I guess it was rubber rather than latex . marketing: Do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: Yeah , we're using we're gonna need at least two special colours . marketing: Well , but we know that we're having at least three colours , project manager: So let's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: Well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we'll like we'll have yellow and black . That I thi industrial designer: Or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: I thought that would be under yours . project manager: Maybe the R_R_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: Alright . Oh , we'll do we wa Are the buttons in special colour , special f I didn't get information on project manager: Oh , marketing: Oh wait . So the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: Well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: but if we're making multiple varieties of this is where I'm getting confused . project manager: Okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: Alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it's designed there . project manager: Special form ? They're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: No , project manager: right ? industrial designer: I think they're fine . project manager: Special material ? industrial designer: Material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . Oh do I have to do it per button , do I ? industrial designer: No , I don't think so . project manager: Yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: Okay , let's have our buttons all be one colour . Okay , it's the kinetic battery that's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it's a special colour , industrial designer: Yeah . How did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: What ? industrial designer: It was it was thirteen and now it's fifteen . marketing: We industrial designer: user interface: What was our target price again ? project manager: Twelve point five . Satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . So I guess what we're gonna talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to , you know , use our creativity with the information , how how well I guess I led it , the how well we worked together as a team , the digital pens , the whiteboard . user interface: in that we've achieved almost all of the design goals that we've set industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: I think we could've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: industrial designer: like what's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: industrial designer: things , but given given what we had I think that we did we did really well . marketing: Yeah , if I'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could've taken that into account . industrial designer: Do you think we could user interface: marketing: No , I thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , I dunno . marketing: That was the last one , like I chose not to do a PowerPoint 'cause I didn't think it made sense to , so I liked that I had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . marketing: project manager: I don't think anybody dominated it , which I thought was really good , like each of us was able to like each of you had your information and I I tried to facilitate it without like taking over , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: industrial designer: Should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? I have a little R_R_ . project manager: I know , industrial designer: project manager: let's think of it like a little jingle . industrial designer: marketing: I like the R_R_ , that's gonna be etched in . Hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but it's quite a useful little gadget . What did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: People should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . user interface: industrial designer: That was marketing: Yeah , I didn't even know they existed . industrial designer: I I knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you're always moving your wrist . so , this is the great product kids , I think we've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: Yeah . Make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the the final results and . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: If we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: I'm afraid I would user interface: That's cool . industrial designer: It started because I wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: Break the stem off . industrial designer: Is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a Martian project manager: Oh industrial designer: when I put the user interface: marketing: Kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . user interface: industrial designer: So are are project manager: user interface: That was bound to happen.$ marketing: Oh , sad . Anything else to say ? marketing: Nothing will come up until after our meeting's supposed to be over , project manager: Alright . project manager: I got more master classes , anybody else wanna like take a master's class ? industrial designer: It's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: No the first one that you sent like I didn't realise that it was a joke and I was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: Oh industrial designer: marketing: It's very it's very work relevant , project manager: It is . project manager: Yes definitely industrial designer: Let's see , project manager: I'm very sad that I didn't get any links to the corporate website . industrial designer: what did I get through the corporate website ? It's just inspiration about circuit boards . project manager: I love Excel , marketing: Here , like , basically project manager: it's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it's like inspiration , basically I'm gonna give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . industrial designer: Yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . industrial designer: Now I have all about circuits and chips and transponders and I wrote it all down , because I thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they're like , you don't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: That's like mine it was like , would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen or a multifunction remote control ? And then it didn't have like any kind of table , like awesome , I'm glad they asked that question and didn't report the result . industrial designer: and user interface: We didn't we didn't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: Although I don't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: I yeah . If I'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , I would have probably drawn them up , project manager: . industrial designer: but marketing: 'Cause we weren't like voting on anything and I think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: Yeah , we could've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: project manager: And with and with the PowerPoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on PowerPoint industrial designer: I think if you had a larger group marketing: Get crazy . marketing: And these might've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: . industrial designer: We if we were all gonna stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would've been alright , project manager: project manager: Now when you were creating your prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: we we worked together , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: industrial designer: So it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and I came up with that rhombus shape project manager: industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . user interface: I think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: It's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . user interface: I know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . user interface: But I think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: Yeah , I was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we weren't getting we didn't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: I'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: I found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . project manager: Yeah I think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: you know what , industrial designer: Yeah . And I I felt the first two meetings , that I was coming in with no information , project manager: . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh I don't know , throwing together PowerPoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . project manager: It was interesting what came out like later , like as I was doing the when I was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me , that more points came out from your presentation even . I'm a little I am a little disappointed that we didn't do a something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . that was something like in order to talk about that we would've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: About yeah . marketing: Well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the Excel file , there wasn't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: marketing: There was no way for us to have project manager: Considered the re industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Well marketing: project manager: it's interesting that they industrial designer: I think we really got into it , I got into it as the day went on and I got really like , ooh I'm designing a remote control , I dunno if that's just me , project manager: - , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: It was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they didn't provide us with information to we weren't provided with information to discuss that . project manager: I know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it'll beep , but I but I'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: that I just don't know what it is , but industrial designer: I think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you won't lose them . we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: . industrial designer: 'cause there's only one T_V_ and there's only like three chairs . marketing: That's like saying you're never gonna lose your keys , and I always do , anyway . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: . project manager: It d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: Yeah , or like I guess what the setup of the house is too . industrial designer: But , I am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: I just I guess I've just never lost the remote . industrial designer: You you're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . marketing: I always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: But I guess it's 'cause we don't carry remotes around that much . Maybe with our little robot one we could've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , I am located marketing: industrial designer: Oh a G_P_S_ system , internal G_P_S_ . project manager: Or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it'll go zoom to the T_V_ and stick there . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Just if you like you'd have a remote for your remote , that'll . project manager: Well , but if you could attach them to the T_V_ , then you can . I decided to you know how I sent you the email saying that PowerPoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . project manager: Just gonna make I'm making full minutes , so that it'll include all of the agenda and all that . project manager: But I didn't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: Yeah , I guess How much of your PowerPoint was already done for you , every meeting . Yeah , I didn't even think about adding slides , 'cause I would just get slides with titles on them project manager: . project manager: Well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it wouldn't have a slide for each point . project manager: I know personally when I do PowerPoint , that's what I do and so I had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and I would do your three . marketing: You have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: The slogan on it ? industrial designer: No , no , definitely not . industrial designer: No , I don't think we need to user interface: project manager: I think we just need the the R_R_ , industrial designer: I think the R_ and R_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: Yeah , I was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they didn't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: project manager: Wasn't it interesting that I thought it was interesting that our market marketing expert did not agree with the marketing marketing: Yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: I will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: I just feel like if you're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you wouldn't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . industrial designer: I guess it i it sort of a grey , isn't it ? Yellow and grey , but then the slogan's in blue <doc-sep>project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: - So , ready ? user interface: 'Kay marketing: No not really Just project manager: marketing: Crap . user interface: marketing: 'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ? project manager: So , we are user interface: Where ? marketing: user interface: It's here . project manager: So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan , user interface: Okay . project manager: So we'll have to evaluate the your proposed remote control , user interface: 'Kay . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: And in case if we're we all agree on the fabrica of building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the production . industrial designer: project manager: So maybe I will let the our two designers talk about so their user interface: I have slides . project manager: user interface: It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design . project manager: Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but user interface: Next a mo marketing: Yeah . In the traditional key traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel . this sta this triangle base is very stable , so so it's it's it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so project manager: Everything's mushroom . industrial designer: Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have you know like lemon shape , you know , centre is yellow and t d user interface: Yeah project manager: Okay . user interface: Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . project manager: industrial designer: I don't think I hope nobody will eat it You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the the in project manager: Oh . Inspira inspiration is industrial designer: And inspired colour project manager: industrial designer: and and very sophisticated material , so . project manager: industrial designer: So what we w what I can add is that , you know he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: it is a low level chip , and user interface: So we cut it to see . industrial designer: You know wi the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i user interface: Okay . Here ? project manager: And where is the solar solar cell ? user interface: marketing: But we say we sa we said solar . project manager: Where is the solar cell ? industrial designer: In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and project manager: Oh . Do you think it won't be It won't cris increase the price ? user interface: Okay marketing: industrial designer: I don't think so , project manager: Okay , we'll see after . So project manager: so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we had three keys key points to for this remote control design , user interface: marketing: and first one was project manager: marketing: So w we'll try to judge this feature with a one to seven scale , one being no , I think . marketing: Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ? user interface: Yeah , I think so . user interface: Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour marketing: I'll agree it's unique , but is it really industrial designer: Is it really fancy ? user interface: So it depend on how d do you define fancy . user interface: industrial designer: But it's you have the lemon aspect of this th this this thing . user interface: project manager: Maybe if you change if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that industrial designer: Do Don't do that , please . marketing: I dunno where the lemon is , but industrial designer: I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so user interface: marketing: it's not obvious . user interface: marketing: If industrial designer: Because i marketing: I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or project manager: Yeah . project manager: And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: What's the use for that ? industrial designer: I have no idea , so . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel . project manager: industrial designer: I have no idea what project manager: And where is the voice recognition ? marketing: Okay . user interface: This is microphone array marketing: First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel . Is it better like that ? marketing: project manager: Looks okay , industrial designer: So we can we can say t user interface: project manager: let's say it's a pineapple now . industrial designer: The colour , is the colour acceptable ? marketing: No , the colour is okay , that's fine . marketing: it's project manager: It looks like a marketing: but I would say there is more too much red . industrial designer: It's too much red ? marketing: if industrial designer: In the basement ? project manager: It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top . So , from one to seven ? industrial designer: I will give I will project manager: Seven is the ma the maximum ? industrial designer: I'll gi marketing: No , seven is false and one is true . marketing: Then let me industrial designer: What other marketing: The other criterion is is it technologically technologically in innovative . industrial designer: Is it easy to use ? project manager: Feasible ? You said previously that you there's microphone inside an industrial designer: Ye Embedded . project manager: and you have the there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ? user interface: Yeah , yeah . project manager: And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ? user interface: So you can capture voice yeah , you c industrial designer: Oh yeah , yeah . industrial designer: And I think you you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is I marketing: Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more I dunno , in the core , or single . industrial designer: I think technically it's acceptable , so project manager: Maybe two ? industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: So using the same scale , two ? project manager: Two ? I would say two industrial designer: Two , yeah , two . project manager: It's better like that , isn't it ? user interface: marketing: Now maybe the most critical one . industrial designer: Most marketing: L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ? industrial designer: Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . marketing: Yeah but this this turning can you can you just re explain me the project manager: industrial designer: As a principle . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ? user interface: You just tu turn d d industrial designer: I think maybe if you he project manager: Oh , ok I understand . marketing: Like if you want to go from user interface: project manager: You take take the remote , so industrial designer: If you hear some click project manager: and you can turn like that to change the channel ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: Yeah but imagine you y project manager: I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . user interface: marketing: Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ? industrial designer: Oh yeah , that's difficult . marketing: How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? user interface: No , no , no . industrial designer: Yeah but y how you need to know I marketing: But if you're fro from two ? user interface: I if if this is a channel one . industrial designer: And you you can marketing: Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels project manager: Oh yeah . user interface: So you got how many degree you you it project manager: Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go industrial designer: I think you can if you have a scale , so user interface: No no , you don't have to y no it's when you when you stop t when you stop , the the turn , project manager: How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ? user interface: It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the marketing: So you you count one degree , two degrees , no . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so marketing: Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main user interface: There's also a number , you know . project manager: Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel . project manager: But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it . project manager: Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: And but I'd user interface: And also you can , if you i project manager: yeah , what's what's this cherry ? user interface: You ca you can turn this . industrial designer: S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates user interface: This is from one channel to industrial designer: maybe one of the user interface: Yeah . project manager: marketing: Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas industrial designer: project manager: Most of the time you have the yeah it's a sleeping remote control . industrial designer: Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . marketing: So reasonably , is four , is one ? industrial designer: Three f three for me , it's o it's okay . user interface: project manager: And what's your opinion ? industrial designer: Will you give four ? marketing: we wouldn't say , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me . industrial designer: Five ? Yeah , so maybe if user interface: w w what do y what you compare with traditional tr traditional controller ? marketing: Yeah . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have you just turn the turn the ball . industrial designer: Yeah but y you know user interface: There's two kind of balls , marketing: So you have user interface: the smaller the the the so you can c you can c you can control the scale . user interface: But in the traditional controller , how do how can you control the scale ? marketing: by pushing zero after after the first one . user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: And that's user interface: yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here . user interface: Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one . project manager: Previously you said that turning this was the fine marketing: Yeah , if you're changing your mind . user interface: there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc marketing: Okay . marketing: Yeah but then when you turn turn it project manager: Oh user interface: project manager: Yeah , no no , no . You know tha that's the weak point , user interface: You use your y marketing: because with a traditional one you just have one hand . project manager: Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control . project manager: industrial designer: it's the next prototype , maybe we cou user interface: Okay okay , okay . project manager: marketing: Okay , so industrial designer: It need maybe some wo further work , but it's marketing: Yeah , especially on the easy to use industrial designer: Yeah , s yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , b I think project manager: But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros . project manager: And if not if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it . project manager: So , just have a look at the okay here is the Excel sheet , so industrial designer: project manager: so it has the energy source . project manager: Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose , industrial designer: No , project manager: but we have solar cells . project manager: how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or such as as number of branches ? industrial designer: I think in each ball you have three project manager: Three ? industrial designer: three yeah , three , yeah . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ? industrial designer: S s simple , simple , yeah . industrial designer: Is it marketing: industrial designer: Is sh it marketing: So we are all already nineteen . project manager: Okay , user interface: project manager: just keep on going , just to have an idea . industrial designer: Is Yes a wooden pl I and that's project manager: Well industrial designer: There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think . project manager: yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . project manager: wood ? industrial designer: But it's yeah , a a rubber marketing: Rather four buttons . industrial designer: Y you tu you turn you turn it , so user interface: No no no , it Okay . project manager: Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel . project manager: I think we s if we keep on adding things industrial designer: It's okay . project manager: so we have to marketing: Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells . project manager: Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ? marketing: Yeah . marketing: just imagine we have industrial designer: So user interface: We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think . project manager: no ? marketing: Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really user interface: Yeah it's the one it's project manager: Okay . industrial designer: Because it seems that this can be marketing: Yeah , if project manager: Or it would be better . project manager: So , do we need special colour ? marketing: Yeah , that's one of the requirement . user interface: We we can we can we c marketing: We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black . project manager: I think so we need if we try to have a kind of industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , one . project manager: So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's industrial designer: One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have yeah . marketing: Okay , so what's the bottleneck ? user interface: How about we change the sale ? marketing: Double curved . user interface: marketing: project manager: I think there's a problem with the push push button . project manager: So yeah , you will have marketing: So we have one button , industrial designer: One s one scroll wheel , so marketing: one wheel . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is user interface: Cou could we have look project manager: twelve fifty e user interface: Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ? marketing: Yeah y actually it's wrong . user interface: Wha what industrial designer: It's fine , twelve fifty user interface: yeah . industrial designer: The solar cells , r is i is it ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's not t t project manager: I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be industrial designer: Yeah , to be able to si to sell it . marketing: That's nice argument , industrial designer: Yeah , with mi marketing: but if it's it's still four our of twelve . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button . industrial designer: We've done it with it is under the if it was low , high or so . project manager: Now industrial designer: So So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ? project manager: So marketing: Well I think we have just have to discuss if industrial designer: Okay , okay , it's fine . project manager: Yeah ? Was it a nice way to create your remote control ? industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , it's it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . project manager: industrial designer: Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to from the beginning to the end . project manager: And for the marketing guy ? marketing: tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe . project manager: And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and and yellow . I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after a fruit T_V_ or I dunno . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: It can be an interesting I don't know project manager: Yes , just lemon . user interface: Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's industrial designer: It's flat , user interface: Yeah yeah it's flat , project manager: Squared ? user interface: yeah the shape is very boring . user interface: Could we come up with new T_V_ with such as this kind of T_V_ ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: So you can you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can marketing: project manager: Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control . industrial designer: But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product . marketing: If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for industrial designer: We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know . industrial designer: Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep user interface: marketing: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , you can keep the global appearan project manager: Yeah , and following industrial designer: The mood of persons , the fashions project manager: . project manager: It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of T_V_ with a a tr industrial designer: We int Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's user interface: Yeah . project manager: So user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: do you think you can celebrate your creation ? user interface: And you can celebrate your leadership . marketing: Yeah , I think it's project manager: It's maybe a little bit expensive . industrial designer: Wh really ? project manager: industrial designer: It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: I I think I like the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so project manager: But don't put sugar in it , it's not working . industrial designer: I p is th y project manager: Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more is most important , industrial designer: the the yellow ball thing that marketing: project manager: because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control . It's yeah but it I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere . industrial designer: f like y we can we can put some double R_ project manager: Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs . project manager: So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ . project manager: So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics , user interface: So we have to give a project manager: so we have the slogan too . project manager: Yeah industrial designer: project manager: th no , it's the it's the pineapple control remote control . industrial designer: Oh unid unidentified remote control , so marketing: It's more appropriate , somehow . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage user interface: Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_ industrial designer: Yeah I always lose my Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be user interface: so you need to buy one . project manager: One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on in your jacket . industrial designer: it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so . user interface: project manager: I think it it would be interesting to just to see if we can if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah . No ? project manager: So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control industrial designer: Okay <doc-sep> then we'll do the evaluation , and then we can finish up after that with any changes that we'll need to make , or hopefully everything will fall right in line . Then we looked at the components the materials for the case , the different energy sources , the different types of chips , and made a decision on what we were going to use to make our remote . industrial designer: Can try to plug that in there user interface: There is our remo the banana . project manager: user interface: but it would be held in such a fashion , marketing: user interface: where it is , obviously it wouldn't be that floppy 'cause this would be hard plastic . So that's so that would hopefully help with grip , or like the ergonomics of it . user interface: And the the simplest functions would be almost identical to an iPod , where that one way ch through channels , that way th other way through channels . And then to access the more complicated functions you'd you sorta go , you press that and go through the menus . T that blue bits should be yellow , that that'd be where the batteries would be I suppose . user interface: Is there anything you want to add ? industrial designer: That's what we have there . you're supposed to hold it like that , but just if you grab it , take it from somewhere , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Right ? that's not project manager: industrial designer: I'd say a bit smaller would probably be nice . user interface: It's you know it's flimsy 'cause it's made out of heavy Play-Doh , marketing: project manager: Would you like to industrial designer: Right . so the criteria we're gonna be looking at are the complaints that we heard from the users who were interviewed earlier . So for the first one , we need to decide , did we solved the problem of the users who complained about an ugly remote ? industrial designer: . project manager: So if they think that what is out there is ugly , then yes I would say , I would say most definitely . industrial designer: I'd say , when it comes to the ergonomics , the form and stuff , yes that's definitely more beautiful than your average . industrial designer: So to answer that honestly I would rather say like , we have not solved the problem completely with the ugly remote because the colour is ugly , definitely . industrial designer: But project manager: Yeah something more modern to go a a modern colour to go with the modern form . You don't want your three feet huge L_C_D_ dis display in your living room that's hanging from the wall to be controlled with something like that . marketing: okay so , do you think , since we This was a a sign criteria , do you think maybe we should put it somewhere in the middle then ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: What do you think ? Three ? Four ? project manager: I would say marketing: Five ? project manager: four . Did we make it simple for new users ? industrial designer: It's very intuitive , I think yeah . 'Cause we've we've brought it down to basically four controls most common , which are channel and volume . project manager: So if we incorporate speech recognition into it then it could user interface: Just just to use , to find it when it was lost . But like I said , like I don't think you'd lose something so yellow so easily . user interface: And it's not gonna fall , like a rectangle would slip down behind things . That's gonna be a difficult shape to industrial designer: Well what project manager: And it is quite bright and user interface: Yeah . marketing: user interface: Maybe in the middle again , three or four or something ? project manager: industrial designer: S marketing: Okay . user interface: you know loo losing things is one of those things that people can lose , a million ways . user interface: You can pick it up and walk away with it and then you've lost it . project manager: But if we do go with the , with the speech recognition , then it , then our scale goes up quite a bit I think . If we eliminate the fact that you know it's impossible to guarantee that it's not gonna be lost then user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: With the speech recognition , which of course may be changed depending on budget . project manager: Which , which may be cheaper than speech recognition if it were just a industrial designer: Yes . marketing: Annoying alarm or something ? project manager: industrial designer: It's it's marketing: Yeah . user interface: So it can't be that industrial designer: the it's based on this anti anti-theft technology for suitcases and stuff , user interface: expensive . industrial designer: where you have one piece that's attached to your luggage , another piece that starts beeping . industrial designer: So that can also easily be integrated because these things are small enough to to hide , so you have one piece , you have to glue somewhere behind your stick it behind your T_V_ and the other user interface: stick it on the T_V_ . Are we adding one of these two features ? industrial designer: Let's add one of those features and say yes . industrial designer: user interface: don't get many mo remote controls with industrial designer: It's all just user interface: screens on . industrial designer: It's all just stolen technology when it comes down to user interface: Yeah it's stolen technology . project manager: But there's not a lot of yellow , there's not a lotta yellow . project manager: Course that wasn't really industrial designer: right user interface: Fa industrial designer: right right . marketing: But how many remotes do you see like this ? user interface: project manager: If we added the screaming factor then we go up . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: I would say we're probably at four . Because it's only got what , these parts are the grips and perhaps the back side the bottom the underneath on the back . marketing: And lastly , did we put the fashion in electronics ? project manager: industrial designer: Y yes . marketing: industrial designer: Well the recent fashion is rather displayed in the in the L_C_D_ and the way you operate it than the form and the colour , user interface: On the project manager: It's true . industrial designer: but it definitely is user interface: Be what we were told , and they'd say yeah , definitely . project manager: Two point marketing: project manager: two point four ? user interface: Is that some long division ? No . project manager: And what what is the acceptable criteria ? Is there like a scale that we have to hit ? marketing: Oh no . They just told me to industrial designer: marketing: pick my own criteria and have you guys evaluate it basically . industrial designer: project manager: The f the Wonder if I can make this industrial designer: project manager: What the Oh it won't let me do that . I can't 'cause I don't have my glasses on , industrial designer: project manager: but so we've got the energy source . and how many batteries do we think this will probably take ? user interface: project manager: Probably some e either two or four . industrial designer: At four it's gonna be too heavy , so that that's not our problem . industrial designer: project manager: Alright so for the electronics our choices are simpl simple chip-on-print , regular chip-on-print , advanced chip-on-print , sample sensor , sample speaker . user interface: We're advanced chip are we ? industrial designer: That's the advanced chip-on-print , yeah . project manager: Is that right or is it just one ? industrial designer: No that's just one . project manager: Maybe it's one because of the industrial designer: It's just one mo single mould , we can do that . project manager: I guess it doesn't matter 'cause the price on that one is zero , which is nice . We have pushbutton , scroll-wheel interface , integrated scroll-wheel pushbutton , and an L_C_D_ display . user interface: marketing: user interface: S industrial designer: S user interface: That's Yeah . project manager: So we actually have the L_C_D_ display marketing: user interface: And then project manager: and then is it the integrated or is it user interface: I'd say the integrated . project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Say mahogany or so marketing: It'd look really lovely . project manager: Well we only have one button so really we shouldn't be charged , industrial designer: just marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we shouldn't be charged anything for the the button supplements . We're gonna leave that one blank because we run on a L_C_D_ and scroll . So we'll go for the hand dynamo huh ? project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: So the only thing better than a banana-shaped remote is one that you shake . user interface: If it w What if we completely took out the the one single button we've got on . I suppose the L_C_D_ C_ display's the one that's pushing it up a bit though . project manager: Yeah 'cause the marketing: project manager: Well 'cause we have to have both right ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: let's let's face it , it also depends on the software on the on the television . industrial designer: You can have the the information that this thing transmits be being displayed on the on the screen . industrial designer: So s yeah let's take away the user interface: Yeah you could maybe take out the L_C_D_ dis display even , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: if it if it comes up on the computer itsel on the T_V_ itself . project manager: So we may not need the L_C_D_ display ? user interface: that is possible yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Okay , the user interface: marketing: project manager: Besides look at what the L_C_D_ does to our lovely remote . industrial designer: So we can just take away a heck of a lot of the marketing: user interface: marketing: . central ? marketing: What's the blue part ? user interface: That was just industrial designer: Oh that's just user interface: we ran out of yellow . project process , satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , new ideas found . project manager: Yeah I think user interface: We sort of knew where we were going straight away I thought . marketing: project manager: marketing: project manager: But as the day went along we had more idea of what we were doing . I think we tried a lotta different things and I think it was interesting as you guys brought up more information and studies that we were right on with a lot of those things . project manager: I had some problem with the pen I think , but minus your p marketing: Minus your PowerPoint fiasco . Incom industrial designer: they've just you know user interface: project manager: Have a industrial designer: Heads are gonna roll , believe me . And then we'll have to check with the main boss whether we can , what goes on after that <doc-sep> so first of all , just to kind of make sure that we all know each other , marketing: marketing: And I'm Andrew and I'm our marketing user interface: I'm Craig and I'm User Interface . so we're designing a new remote control and Oh I have to record who's here actually . So that's David , Andrew and Craig , isn't it ? And you all arrived on time . project manager: Is that what everybody got ? industrial designer: Did you get the same thing ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: marketing: charac favourite characteristics of it ? Is that right ? project manager: Yeah . marketing: right , well basically high priority for any animal for me is that they be willing to take a lot of physical affection from their family . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Then they're small cute and furry , and when planet of the apes becomes real , I'm gonna be up there with them . project manager: You can take as long over this as you like , because we haven't got an awful lot to discuss . industrial designer: project manager: Ok oh we do we do user interface: project manager: Don't feel like you're in a rush , anyway . , well anyway , I don't know , it's just the first animal I can think off the top of my head . project manager: Do you ? user interface: project manager: Oh that's very good of you . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: he's very friendly and cheery and always pleased to see you , and very kind of affectionate and and he's quite quite wee as well so you know he can doesn't take up too much space . marketing: project manager: and And he does a funny thing where he chases his tail as well , industrial designer: project manager: which is quite amusing , so marketing: Is he aware that th it's his own cha tail he's chasing ? project manager: It is . He only does it after he's had his dinner marketing: project manager: and he'll just all of a sudden just get up and start chasing his tail 'round the living room . project manager: Yeah , so marketing: Probably when he was little he got lots of attention for doing it and has forever been conditioned . so according to the brief we're gonna be selling this remote control for twenty five Euro , and we're aiming to make fifty million Euro . And we don't want it to cost any more than twelve fifty Euros , so fifty percent of the selling price . project manager: because it's probably up to the the the retailer to sell it for whatever price they want . project manager: do you think the fact that it's going to be sold internationally will have a bearing on how we design it at all ? marketing: Yes . marketing: Well right away I'm wondering if there's th th , like with D_V_D_ players , if there are zones . industrial designer: It does make sense from maybe the design point of view 'cause you have more complicated characters like European languages , then you need more buttons . I'm thinking the price might might appeal to a certain market in one region , whereas in another it'll be different , so project manager: What , just like in terms of like the wealth of the country ? marketing: Just a chara just a characteristic of the project manager: Like how much money people have to spend on things like ? marketing: Just Or just like , basic product podi positioning , the twenty five Euro remote control might be a big hit in London , might not be such a big hit in Greece , who knows , project manager: Aye , I see what you mean , yeah . marketing: Right away I'm making some kind of assumptions about what what information we're given here , project manager: . marketing: thinking , 'kay trendy probably means something other than just basic , project manager: Yeah . so I'm wondering right away , is selling twenty five Euros , is that sort of the thi is this gonna to be like the premium product kinda thing or project manager: Yeah , yeah . project manager: Well twenty five Euro , that's that's about like eighteen pounds or something , isn't it ? Or no , is it as much as that ? marketing: project manager: I dunno , I've never bought a remote control , so I don't know how how good a remote control that would get you . project manager: But yeah , I suppose it has to look kind of cool and gimmicky . well d Does anybody have anything to add to to the finance issue at all ? Thin marketing: Do we have any other background information on like how that compares to other project manager: No , actually . That would be useful , though , marketing: other project manager: wouldn't it , if you knew like what your money would get you now . Yeah , interesting thing about discussing production of a remote control for me is that l as you point out , I just don't think of remote controls as somethin something people consciously assess in their purchasing habits . marketing: Like so sort of like how do you I one one way of looking at it would be , well the people producing television sets , maybe they have to buy remote controls . Or another way is maybe people who have T_V_ sets are really fed up with their remote control and they really want a better one or something . user interface: I know My parents went out and bought remote controls because they got fed up of having four or five different remote controls for each things the house . marketing: Okay so Right , so in function one of the priorities might be to combine as many uses project manager: Yeah . Right , so do you think that should be like a main design aim of our remote control d you know , marketing: I think so . project manager: do your your satellite and your regular telly and your V_C_R_ and everything ? marketing: Yeah , yeah . Well like , maybe what we could use is a sort of like a example of a successful other piece technology is palm palm pilots . They're gone from being just like little sort of scribble boards to cameras , M_P_ three players , telephones , project manager: So , like , I wonder if we might add something new to the to the remote control market , project manager: Yeah . marketing: such as the lighting in your house , or project manager: Or even like , you know , notes about what you wanna watch . Like you might put in there oh I want to watch such and such and look a marketing: Yeah , yeah . Like , p personally for me , at home I've I've combined the the audio video of my television set and my D_V_D_ player and my C_D_ player . marketing: So it's sort of ironic that that then they're in there you know , the sound and everything it's just one system . project manager: okay , I'd wel we're gonna have to wrap up pretty quickly in the next couple of minutes . so anything else anybody wants to add about what they don't like about remote controls they've used , what they would really like to be part of this new one at all ? industrial designer: And you keep losing them . industrial designer: it's usually quite small , or when you want it right , it slipped behind the couch marketing: project manager: W You get those ones where you can , if you like , whistle or make a really high pitched noise they beep . project manager: There is that something we'd want to include , do you think ? marketing: project manager: Dunno . Actually had a cable between it and the T_V_ project manager: marketing: and big like buttons that sort of like , like on a blender or something . marketing: And , you know , when I think about what they are now , it's better , but actually it's still kind of , I dunno , like a massive junky thing on the table . marketing: 'Cause it could b it could it could be that f it could be that functionally that doesn't make it any better , but that just the appeal of of not having project manager: It looks better . marketing: You know , these days there's a r pe things in people's homes are becoming more and more like chic , you know . project manager: Right , well so just to wrap up the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes . so inbetween now and then , as the industrial designer , you're gonna be working on you know the actual working design of it industrial designer: Yep . for user interface , technical functions , I guess that's you know like what we've been talking about , what it'll actually do . and marketing executive , you'll be just thinking about what it actually what , you know , what requirements it has to has to fulfil and you'll all get instructions emailed to you , I guess . marketing: project manager: Yeah , so it's th the functional design stage is next , I guess . Before we wrap up , just to make sure we're all on the same page here , project manager: marketing: do we We were given sort of an example of a coffee machine or something , project manager: -huh , yeah . marketing: right ? Well , are we at ma right now on the assumption that our television remote control may have features which go beyond the television ? Or are we keeping sort of like a a design commitment to television features ? project manager: Th Okay , well just very quickly marketing: I I don't know . project manager: you probably want some kind of unique selling point of it , so , you know marketing: Okay . project manager: Right , okay , we'll that's that's the end of the meeting , then <doc-sep>I'm gonna do an opening , talk about did you all get the minutes ? I e-mailed them to you . I'll talk about the new project requirements I've just received , and then we have to make a decision on our remote control functions . we need to keep in mind the user requirement specification , what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , the functions design , what effects the apparatus should have , and the working design , how the apparatus actually works to fulfil its function . marketing: shall we go in the order that you just did it ? project manager: Sure , please do . How do I hook my screen up ? industrial designer: I think , you might have to disconnect Rose . user interface: Well there's a wee a wee plug just just that one there marketing: Where does it go ? , I'm not supposed to move this , user interface: marketing: but user interface: Ah that's it , yep . marketing: user interface: And then you have to press function F_ eight project manager: Function , F_ eight , yeah . project manager: Is it plugged in all the way and you screwed it in and industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: alright project manager: It's taking it a little bit marketing: I've never attached to anything . marketing: I don't know if you guys are able to get access to the report that was online or if I'm the only one who is . So we're just gonna talk a little bit about the functional requirements that people specified when they were asked . They had a hundred subjects and their usability lab and they watched them watch T_V_ and recorded the frequency that they used particular buttons and the relevance that those buttons had . Focusing on their desires , people specifically said that they thought remotes were ugly , seventy five per cent of the a hundred subjects noted that and that they more importantly though , eighty per cent said that they would be willing to pay more for a fancier looking remote . also they did some questions on voice recognition and found that the desire for voice recognition was inversely related to age , so younger people were more inclined to want something with voice recognition , whereas the older people in the like sixty and above segment or so did not really think that they would pay more money for voice recognitions . marketing: people also had certain frustrations , that I think that we could try to take into consideration with our design . People are also frustrated with the difficulty it is to learn how to use a remote and I think that ties back to what you were saying before industrial designer: . It also mentioned something called R_S_I_ and I was hoping someone might be able to inform me as to what R_S_I_ is , user interface: Repetitive strain injury . So I guess sort of the carpal tunnel type thing , people do not like that , the repetitive use , I guess , caused a strain . looking at the needs people specified , the problem right now is that people's remotes are not matching their operating behaviour . People also zap like to change the channel , about sixty five per cent during an hour of use . So we really just need to focus in on those volumes and channel changers rather than things like the audio settings , the screen settings and the channel settings , because they're used much more infrequently and probably just complicate what's going on . So I think that some things that we might wanna think about , the idea of an L_C_D_ screen was brought up although they didn't have any details on what people's preferences on that were , so I dunno know if that's coming to me later , or something like that . But something for us to consider also just the phenomenon that less is more when it comes to the buttons on the remote or what we wanna make easiest to use , make sure that , you know , something like an audio setting isn't given as much importance and visibility on the remote as something like channel changing that's used a lot more often . And basically in order for us to win over to the consumer we just need to focus on what it looks like , that it has a fancy appeal and that it's not ugly and that it feels like the way they're gonna use it , so it doesn't give them any hand injuries or things like that . And I think that's in the shared , if I did it right , if anyone wants to look at it . It's a device that allows us to produce certain effects on our television , so i it's basically a communication device . We we tell the remote control what we want to do , it sends a message to the television saying change the channel , change the volume , yeah , adjust these settings , adjust the brightness . how do we actually go about designing a new television remote control ? First thing to do is to come up with the design specifications . We need to know what our final product is gonna be like , so we need a a clear idea of exactly what this product does , how it works , and what the end-user is gonna want from this product . Oh , a way I'd suggest that we could go about this is by designing several different prototypes of user interfaces for this product , and then trying to get some feedback about marketing: user interface: h how well these particular prototypes work , sorta find out what people think of 'em . So in some sense we're gonna we're gonna have to aim for a device which is fairly conventional in design so that we're not completely shocking people . But I think within that there is also room for us to introduce novel ideas and to make something that's that's perhaps a little bit different , something that stands out . the first of these is is technological ye what can we do with the current state of technology as it is . So as you mentioned things like voice recognition would would add to the price but it would also im improve the design of the product . user interface: So I had a look on the on the web to see if I could find a few examples of existing television remote controls . In analysing these we can consider what what things what's good about them , what things do they get right , what's bad about them , what's wrong with 'em , how we can improve on the designs that that that I found and what can we do to make our product stand out from from the large majority of remote controls . project manager: user interface: on the left here we've got an engineering-based design for a remote control , industrial designer: user interface: so it's one that's got lots of buttons , it's it's fully featured , everything you might possibly want to do is there , you know , it's got forward , backwards , up , down , channel numbers , volume , freeze frame . Yeah , it's it's fully featured and it might take a while to get to learn to use it , but once you've learned it you can you can do whatever you want with your T_V_ . It's just got the essential functions of the T_V_ changing the channel , play , stop , volume . It would be a lot quicker to learn to use it , but again th it's it's swings and roundabouts . personally wa what I want from a remote control is a device that's simple , it it's easy to use , it's got big buttons for doing the things I do most often , changing the volume , changing the channel . It it does everything that I need it to , as I said before , I'm quite lazy , I don't wanna walk across the room just to adjust my television . I also want something that that looks cool , and that that feels good , that's ergonomically designed . user interface: And I think that's that's why companies like Apple've 've 've made a lot of progress . industrial designer: Right , I really can't see what I'm doing , so does anyone have a project manager: You there it is . marketing: So wait , did it let you go on the Internet or was that just what it let you see ? user interface: that was just on the d on the company web site , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: Alright No , how do I play again ? project manager: the it's right above Draw . I had a bit of some issues with this , because I wasn't able to find everything I needed , but I guess that's we're still in early stages . Though th the thing about working design is the what we're trying to do as a working design is figure out how the aparata apparatus can fulfil its function . It works because it converts electrical energy to grinding the beans and then you put the bean through a filter and that filters out , and then you get coffee at the end that's nice and hot because of the combination of electrical energy and then the other things that are brought in to make it work . Don't know if I'm explaining that very well , but how do I get to the next s ah . So h the method as working designers figure out what you need to make it fulfil this practical function , what what needs to be done and how do we convert all the elements to make that done . marketing: industrial designer: So wha the easiest thing to do is to break down all the points at which you need something to happen . So you make a schematic of the way that the the energy is converted tsh towards this practical function . industrial designer: So the findings that I got very just very briefly is that you have a choice of the way that the information is projected to the receiver and in my opinion infra-red is the best way to do that 'cause you don't need a sight line . the user interface is critical here , because a lot of the things that happen in a remote control happen through the chip that controls that converts the electrical energy into data , which then goes through the infra-red , so the the chip that I think Ian is designing , is gonna be crucial . And really it all comes down to the to the user , because they're the one that's controlling most of the working design . So the components that we find here are the energy source , you know the battery or whatever that's gonna m make it work , then the chip , which converts the data , the user that's controlling the chip , and the infra-red bulb that's gonna let us move the data to the receiver . You have your energy source right there which then brings energy or information to the chip , which is also controlled by the users . You have energy going to the user who's controlling the chip ooh 's not what I wanted to do . So you have your energy source , your user interface who's controlling the chip , the chip also uses the energy , and the chip through the use of the user interface is gonna control the switch which will work your infra-red bulb , which will then bring the data to the receiver . And personal preferences , besides the fact that I can't spell , we need a long-lasting energy source , people don't wanna be changing it a lot . We need a straightforward interface , like Ian was saying , simple , not overwhelming it with information and we need a reliable and clear infra-red signal , so that you're not waving your remote around project manager: industrial designer: Rose , do you think you can give me a hand with this ? project manager: Yes , absolutely . marketing: user interface: What's up ? industrial designer: project manager: Lefty loosey , righty tighty . We have a couple new requirements that I was just e-mailed right before the meeting and that we have to keep in in in mind as we're creating this . project manager: We didn't bring it up yet , or at all in the meetings so far , but we're not gonna work with teletext because well it that's been taken over by the internet , so we're not gonna worry about we're not gonna worry about that . Oh , user interface: You don't have it in the States ? marketing: so project manager: It industrial designer: No . W d could would you care to explain it ? user interface: Oh , I didn't realise . yeah , it's like a I suppose it's kind of similar to a very very basic web browser . you have like you have numbers on your remote control , y and you type in the page number you want , marketing: user interface: so like you type a hundred on your remote control and this this kind of index appears on the television screen with just some some text and some very blocky looking graphics on it . And you just type numbers to go to different pages and it gives you information , mostly rather boring stuff like what's on T_V_ next and share prices and that kind of thing . industrial designer: But if you ever see the T_V_ saying like go to page one sixty on Ceefax now , that's what they're talking about . industrial designer: I have no idea why we don't have it , but user interface: marketing: That's good . Okay , well , we're not gonna the management has decided we're not gonna work with that . marketing: project manager: Okay and we're also gonna w like your question earlier whether this is going to be t for television , video , or etcetera . project manager: and finally there's more marketing , I think , our corporate image has to be recognisable . So while we're gonna make it look pretty we need to use our colour and our slogan i in the new design . user interface: So what's our corporate image like ? It's It's kind of yellow colour with we put fashion in electronics . project manager: Looks like , yeah , kind of a yellow and black and we have that the emphasis on the R_s in user interface: It's like double R_ . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Okay , so we want something that looks good project manager: Yep . You in your analysis of different market of the marketing , you identified that different groups wanted different things marketing: project manager: or had certain preferences , for example that that older people didn't really care for voice recognition , but younger people did . project manager: and so who are we aiming this at ? industrial designer: Well if we're gonna say that function fashion we put the fashion in in electronics then you automatically , I think , a sort of younger group that that's who's gonna be attracted to this . marketing: Yes , I do think , who's gonna have the money to buy that also , that one ? project manager: It's gonna be twenty five Euro remember , so it has to be avai marketable to whomever it is . user interface: Is it is it something that's gonna be sold separately from the television or is it something that comes w with a television ? 'Cause that would affect the way that we market it . project manager: Well at least right now what we're doing is deciding on just the remote itself , so it will probably be sold separately , twenty five Euro by itself . marketing: The only break-down that I was given in terms of age was the voice activation and basically there's a big jump , after thirty five people don't really care if it has voice , so it's like basically fifteen to thirty five that think that that's a good idea . marketing: I dunno I'm gonna be given any other numbers broken down in terms of age later , but if that's sort of the only quality that we have that is divided into age then we would wanna stick between the fifteen and thirty five range . industrial designer: Yeah , that's probably a population w quite a little bit of disposable income for use on technology anyway , so that might be a fairly good target group for us . user interface: I I would say no , because it's gonna add too much to the price . Especially if we are marketing it as a separate product , people are gonna be paying project manager: user interface: well , we've got a price limit of was it twelve twelve and a half Euros for to produce it ? project manager: . user interface: And I wonder if we can get voice recognition into that twelve and a half Euros without having to make too many other compromises . marketing: But what else are we gonna put , not that I'm really gung-ho about it , I don't know what else you can put in a remote to make it technologically advanced though . marketing: it can look really great and still have the same up-n-down buttons industrial designer: But right . marketing: and why's anyone gonna buy a new remote ? industrial designer: Well but why are we why are we aiming for a technological advancement ? Everything we're talking about is ease of use and simple and that doesn't necessarily mean more technology , marketing: marketing: If someone's looking to buy a new remote , don't they want like an upgrade ? I dunno . project manager: Upgrade ? Well , we can look for we can look at upgrade or we can look at user-friendly . project manager: Simplification , industrial designer: They could have a crap remote user interface: Yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: that came with their T_V_ that's just impossible to use , or maybe it broke , or maybe they're just missing it . And we also need to talk about if we're only gonna have the very simple ones or also have the other ones just separate somehow or industrial designer: . marketing: Can you like this may be too complicated , but , I wish I had something to explain it , like if it was just a simple , either this way or this way , that had like the main buttons and then you could like pull something out , kind of and like you got the rest the buttons , industrial designer: Ooh . user interface: The remote marketing: Do you know what I'm saying ? project manager: Kind of pull out of the side . Like some T_V_s they have a sort of a sliding screen on the remote control of it project manager: . user interface: So if you wanna do something complicated like programme your television or re-tune it , then you you open up this little hatch or or slide the screen down marketing: marketing: 'Cause then 's like people who don't wanna ever look at them , never even have to see them project manager: marketing: and if you like get the instruction manual that comes with it and you just don't even read it then you'll never even know that those things can pull out . marketing: And you're a happy person and everyone else doesn't have to have like two remotes , one that has the easy ones and one that has project manager: project manager: we have to be careful that that that doesn't impede the chip transmitting information , but that's gonna be mostly technological thing . project manager: Okay , so what are we emphasising ? I what in this project ? user interface: Si simplicity and fashion . project manager: Okay , those are very good goals , I think , that we have to keep in mind in with everything we do . Simplicity and fashion and , yeah , or usability speci however you wanna say that , which includes an emphasis on making the infra-red very functional , so that you don't have to travel around a lot . marketing: What can you do to like make the infra-red more functional , like why would it not be ? I'm just wondering . project manager: I think it's a lot to do with battery , but that's just my marketing: Okay . industrial designer: The battery and that I think that the chip takes the data and presents it well , without sort of scattering . industrial designer: The quality quality of all the components really , we can't really do anything shoddy work , 'cause it's user interface: Yeah . project manager: So our target group , we're saying , fifteen to thirty five ? marketing: Well , I dunno how useful that number is if we're not doing project manager: S voice recognition , which I kind of I kind of feel like voice recognition is not necessary in a remote control , marketing: Yeah . project manager: like it might be necessary for a T_V_ but not for the remote c , you know . user interface: It's , yeah , it's pretty it's pretty high-tech . user interface: marketing: And if the whole idea is you're using a remote then why would you have voice , project manager: marketing: like you know what and then it's like you wouldn't need a remote you'd just talk to your T_V_ . user interface: It's for , like , the ultimately lazy people , project manager: user interface: who can't even be bothered to pick up the remote . industrial designer: I marketing: Maybe if I get m more numbers , I'll e-mail you before the next meeting in terms of ages . But this doesn't divide up anything and there was only a hundred subjects also , project manager: marketing: which isn't , really isn't that representative , especially if it's a hundred subjects that th they then can subdivide into age groups that means there's very few in each age group , so industrial designer: Yeah , but I th I think regardless we're we're aiming for the under sixty five or something . I'd say we're can we narrow it down to maybe teenagers and families ? 'Cause that would go up to like fifty ? industrial designer: Or like single professionals or something . user interface: we we said simplicity is is one of the features , so it's going to appeal to people , maybe people who have problems with technology , you know , people who get scared by having lots of buttons , project manager: Okay . user interface: but then we've also got fashion , which is something that definitely appeals to younger people . marketing: Well maybe we don't have to defi define the target group by the demographic of age , project manager: Right . marketing: maybe we can define it by like the demographic of like h t how much money they have to spend or something like that , user interface: Yeah . project manager: So maybe it's more useful to d d to define objectives like fashion and simplicity than to find specific target group as far as age is industrial designer: Yeah , t probably . oh , there're a couple functions do we want something so that do we want some kind of thing to find it if it's lost ? Like a button on a T_V_ you can press industrial designer: . project manager: and it'll ring or something , I don't know like or beep ? marketing: H , like I said before , fifty per cent of of the fru f like frustration someone can have that was the biggest one and half the people said that happened and we all mentioned it before we knew about it . marketing: And if we're talking about making something easy that sort of goes along with it so it wouldn't be like a random thing to sort of add in . marketing: so project manager: Okay , we have to we have about four minutes left to define our functions . marketing: user interface: Which are kind of hidden away in some way or well not hidden but they're they're not as prominent as the main features . And we also want it to be fashionable , which I'm not sure if that's a function so much as a yeah marketing: on your coffee table , it's not like an eye sore , that kind of thing . Any other essential functions that we need ? Battery ? Do we need a long-life battery ? industrial designer: Battery battery use . user interface: but I dunno if you can project manager: Just 'cause it is an electronic device , the industrial designer: . I don't I don't think of a way you can operate a chip and convert that much data without without one . industrial designer: But you could maybe have it in a little charging station like a mobile phone , or like a little cradle for your iPod . industrial designer: I dunno , that might contribute to less people losing it too if it it stays in one place . project manager: We have to think about space in living-rooms , too , like 'cause they're industrial designer: . project manager: would you put it on top of the T_V_ ? I don't know , just think okay , that's that's a good idea , we'll keep it . project manager: after the meeting we're gonna each complete a sks a questionnaire and a summaries summary . I'll make sure to put up the minutes and the project documentation and including these PowerPoint slides . you each have individual actions , I_ I_D_ Industrial Design you've your components concept , User Interface , the user interface concept , market trend wa watching . marketing: project manager: And as as per last time you'll get specific incrat instructions from your personal coach e-mailed to you . And hopefully , I hope , next time you'll be able to access more of the web site that they they seem to tell you that you could . project manager: but Be sure to note any frustrations or any issues that come up in your in your summary . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: Did you were you able to like put yours in the group folder ? industrial designer: Yes , I just did that . industrial designer: Yeah ? project manager: Looks like there are looks like there's a second one kind of of mine that's that I didn't do , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Where is that ? Yours is project manager: Under the shared folder , I don't know it might not even be under yours as well . industrial designer: Yeah , that's what I have as well , R Rose project manager: Okay . marketing: No , but that's 'cause I think yours is in the e-mail separate , like it's not on the server

The group discussed the technological innovation of the prototype, with Marketing expressing dissatisfaction due to the lack of LCD screens and a fancy chip. However, the Project Manager saw potential in the kinetic battery as a good innovation. The group acknowledged that the battery feature might go unnoticed by users until a year had passed without needing a battery change, leading to an average rating of four out of seven. The Industrial Designer presented two remote control designs, but the Project Manager found neither of them aesthetically pleasing. The Industrial Designer suggested incorporating a cool appeal and ergonomic design into a fashion remote, as there was a market for technology with a cool look. The group agreed to explore new technologies such as a touch screen and nicer materials for the remote, emphasizing the importance of technological improvement. The team recognized the innovation of the first remote control, which featured an LCD display, dual-handed usage, and an alarming feature. Its unique yellow color resembling a banana aligned with recent fashion trends. Although some features resembled an iPod, the team considered it a creative design for a remote control. Notably, the controller included an embedded microphone array capable of recognizing simple vocal commands and four microphones to capture voice from different directions, along with tactile buttons, which was seen as a positive aspect.

Why did the group and industrial designer consider technology innovation as a key factor in evaluating and designing the product's technical functions and working design?

hopefully this meeting I'll be doing a little bit less talking than I did last time 'cause this is when you get to show us what you've been doing individually . I'll try and do that for the next meeting as well so if you check in there , there's a shared project documents folder . project manager: Is it best if I send you an email maybe , to let you know it's there ? user interface: Yes , I think so . I'll act as secretary for this meeting and just take minutes as we go through , and then I'll send them to you after the meeting . The main the main focus of this meeting is your presentations that you've been preparing during the time , so we'll go through each of you one by one . I just sent user interface: Yeah , the last minute , yeah , project manager: at the last minute , I'm sorry about that , user interface: yeah . project manager: and then we need to , by the end of the meeting come to some kind of decision on who our target group's going to be and what the functions of the remote control that's the the main goal is to come up with those two things , target group and functions of the remote control . So I would say industrial designer: You said targ target groups , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: what does that mean ? project manager: As who it is that we're going to be trying to sell this thing to , user interface: industrial designer: okay , 'kay . industrial designer: So are project manager: So we need to yeah , we need to have a fairly defined group that that we want to focus on industrial designer: Okay . so f from the project manager: Just before you start , to make it easier , would you three mind emailing me your presentations ? Once we you don't have to do it now but when once you go back , user interface: Okay , yeah , afterwards , yeah , okay . So n with with regard to the working design of this remote control I've identified a few basic components of the remote and se from the design , functional design perspective w I c we can now know wha what exactly the components are and how how they work together with each other . the identification of the components , and since since I'm dealing only with the technical aspects , I would need feedback from the marketing person and from the user interface person . industrial designer: and basically update and come up with a new design , so it's a cyclical process . so basically the as I told you the identification of how the remote control works and what are the various parts to it and what are the different processes and how the parts communicate with each other . okay , so e the mee email said that teletext is now outdated , so we need to do away with that functionality of the remote control . also the remote control should be used only for television , because incorporating other features makes it more comp complex . How however , our our remote control would only be dealing with the the use for television , in order to keep things simple . also the management wants that our design should be unique it so it should incorporate colour and the slogan that our company has it as its standard . The user interf interface communicates with the chip , so I'll basic go over to the Okay . So if if this is our energy source and this is a cell , it communicates it feeds energy into the into the chip , which basically finds out h how how to do everything . So whe when the user presses a button , it feeds into the chip and the chip then generates a response and takes the response to an infrared terminal , which then so the output of the chip is an infrared bit code , which is then communicated to the remote site , which h has an infrared receiver . so these are the essent so a all the functionality of the remote control , whatever new functions that we need to do , make the chip more complicated and bigger , basically . so i in my personal preferences I'm hoping that we can ke keep the design as simple and clear as possible . And also if we can incorporate the latest features in our chip design , so that our remote control does not become outdated soon and it's compatible with mot most televisions . project manager: Do you have any i idea about costs at this point ? industrial designer: No , I don't have any idea about what each component costs . 'Cause that's something to consider , I guess , if we're if we're using more advanced technology , it might increase the price . industrial designer: but unfortunately I I do not have any data , so I just identified the functional components for that . Are there any more questions , or shall we just skip straight to the next one and then we can discuss all of them together at the end ? user interface: I think we need like some general discussion at the end probably . Yeah , I think since since we were discussing some design issues then I I I would like to continue project manager: Yes , shall shall we pull this up ? user interface: okay , yeah . project manager: Yeah , I thought those last minute things , they're gonna hit you the worst . project manager: It ta takes a little Oh , and have you user interface: There's just nothing . project manager: you need to then also press on yours , function F_ eight , user interface: Oh right , right , right , project manager: so the blue function key at the bottom and F_ eight . project manager: Now it's coming , industrial designer: It'll come up , it no signal . user interface: No signal ? Why ? project manager: Maybe again ? industrial designer: Yeah yeah , it says something now , user interface: Oh . project manager: Oh , if you press if you press function and that again user interface: This is the problem , but project manager: there's there's usually three modes , one where it's only here , one where it's only there , and one where it's both . So I'm going to speak about technical functions design just like some some first issues that came up . 'kay , so the method I was adopting at this point , it's not for the for the whole period of the all the project but it's just at th at this very moment . user interface: my method was to look at other remote controls , so mostly just by searching on the web and to see what functionality they used . And then after having got this inspiration and having compared what I found on the web just to think about what the de what the user really needs and what what the user might desire as additional functionalities . user interface: so the findings were that the main function of the remote control is is just sending messages to the television set , so this quite straightforward . And w some of the main functions would be switching on , switching off , then the user would like to switch the channel for example just m changing to the next channel to to flip through all all of the possible channels , or then the other possibility would be that she might just want to choose one particular channel , so we would need the numbers . I als industrial designer: Sorry , cou could you go back for a second ? user interface: okay . among the findings I found that m m most of the curr presently available remote controls also include other functionalities in their design , like operating a V_C_R_ , but they don't seem to be able to deal with D_V_D_ players , but then there are surely there are many other functionali functions that could possibly be added to them , but according to the last minute update actually we do not want to have all this complicated functions added to our design . industrial designer: user interface: So my personal preferences would be to keep the the whole remote control small just like the physical size . And then it must be easy to use , so it must follow some conventions like whereabouts you find the on off button and maybe the colour tends to be red or something . then yeah , the must-have buttons would be on off and then the channel numbers and then the one that allows us to go to the next or the previous channel , and then volume has to be there . But then other functionalities could be just there could be a menu button and you could change things on the screen then , for example brightness and similar functions could be just done through the menu . And yeah , the last question I had about whether we wanted to incorporate n more functionalities , the answer was already no because of the last minute update . user interface: If you have questions project manager: If that was the the directive that came through from management , but if we had a a decent case for that we really think it's important to include video and D_V_D_ , I could get back to them and see . user interface: Yeah , and also it's it's other question is because there are so many different And there are so many different things that could possibly be included marketing: project manager: user interface: because besides video and D_V_D_ there are the video C_D_s and whatever , so it might be problematic to to choose between all these possible things . industrial designer: project manager: Are there any questions for clarification of Maarika before we go on to the next one ? industrial designer: So in the u user interface requirements we we have been able to identify what are the basic buttons that we do want . but so so at this stage , how we go about implementing those button we will not identify or in we can completely do away with buttons and have some kind of a fancy user interface or something like that . But is is there any any thoughts on that ? user interface: well , I think the buttons are still kind of the most easy for the user to use , industrial designer: Right . user interface: what other options would you have ? A little screen or something , but this would be really kind of I think a lot of learning for the user industrial designer: Yeah , and it'll make the costs yeah . user interface: and and the user just wants to get get a result quickly , not to spend time in like giving several orders I dunno . user interface: I think I th I would I would think the put the buttons , but if if you have other proposals . industrial designer: I think the co costs will also play a big role when we come to know about them . industrial designer: i if the if the costs allow , we can have like an L_C_D_ display user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: try to press project manager: Is it plugged in prop industrial designer: oh , okay , marketing: It's working . marketing: So what I have , wh where I've got my information from is a survey where the usability lab observed remote control use with a hundred subjects and then they gave them a questionnaire . so it was all about , you know , how people feel about the look and feel of the remote control , you know . What's the most annoying things about remote controls and the possibility of speech recognition and L_C_D_ screens in remote control . Not that they actually gave me any answers on the L_C_D_ screens , so I should have taken that bit out , but anyway . What they found is that people don't like how current remote controls are , so you know , definitely you should be looking at something quite different . project manager: marketing: current remote controls , they don't match the user behaviour well , as you'll see on the next slide . I dunno what zapping is , but project manager: It's switching between channels , sort of randomly going through . okay , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons , project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: so that's going back to what , you know , we were saying earlier about , you know , do you need all the buttons on the remote control , industrial designer: Right . but project manager: I liked the , I liked the litt marketing: ooh where's it go ? project manager: ooh come back . marketing: okay , so like what it shows is how much things are used relatively and what you can clearly see from that is the thing that's used most is the channel selection . marketing: What you can't see is volume selection , it's a little bit higher than all the others . project manager: - , that's the next one along , yeah ? marketing: Yeah , so what the graph shows is that , you know , power , channel selection and volume selection are important , and the rest of them , you know , nobody really uses and so that's the the numbers along the top represent their like their importance , you know , project manager: marketing: and , you know , channel selection and volume selection are absolutely essential , and the power , well it's not quite so essential , apparently , although I don't understand how it couldn't be , industrial designer: marketing: and everything else , I think , you know , you can forget about having those buttons on the remote control , 'cause they're just not needed , and they're not used . marketing: This is the bit that the email messed up for me and that's what I was fiddling about with at the beginning of the thing . that they get lost , that the you know , they're not intuitive and that they're bad for repetitive strain injury . marketing: I think if you're watching enough T_V_ to get repetitive strain injury from you know , watching T_V_ , then that's the least of your problems , project manager: The remote control . Okay , so the the R_S_I_ thing would be that , like when you have the computer keyboards and you keep your wrists up would be something that encourages industrial designer: Right . marketing: you want something with an ergonomic t design that encourages good use of the remote control and you know , not straining your wrists watching T_V_ . Right , sorry this is pink because I was copying and pasting the table , and I didn't have time to white it out again . So you can see from that that , you know , younger people to the age of thirty five are quite likely to pay quite a lot more f well quite are quite likely to pay more for voice recognition software , whereas as people get older , they're a bit more sceptical about it and they're less willing to to try it . so clearly voice recognition is something to think about , but you know I d I do wonder how well that would work given that a T_V_ , you know , tends to be people talking and , you know , how are you going to stop it from just flipping channels whilst watching T_V_ . So you have sleek , stylish , sophisticated , you know , so something that's , you know , a bit cool . there's a there's an important thing that , you know , people use when , you know , when you're filling up your home , you know , a lot of people fill up their home with bits of crap , basically , you know , and you've got all this stuff , and you're just like , what the hell is that , who is ever gonna use it ? You know , so things should either be functional or beautiful or preferably both , so I think we need to aim for both . marketing: okay , then a long battery life , like you were talking about earlier and , you know , I was thinking that solar power would be quite cool because , you know , your remote control just sits there , and you could just sit it in the sunshine and save the environment a bit . industrial designer: marketing: and then like a locator , so you know , kind of like you have for a mobile phone or industrial designer: . marketing: not a mobile phone industrial designer: Some kind of a ring , project manager: Keys and things like that , industrial designer: some marketing: Yeah , that's it , you know . My flatmate and I were talking about this on the way into uni this morning and I was like I need to get one for everything . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: So yeah , so maybe something where you clap and then it beeps , something a kind of sound that you don't often hear on the T_V_ , you know , industrial designer: Right . marketing: 'cause you don't want your remote control beeping every five minutes , project manager: marketing: 'cause you you'd then deliberately lose it by throwing it out the window or something . I think one of the very interesting things that came up in Ka Kate Cat Cat's presentation was this this issue of like voice recognition being more popular with younger people . industrial designer: So if we need to have a target group then I think as far as the m motto of our company is concerned , if we want to have something sleek and you know , good looking we are better off targeting a younger audience then you know , people who are comparatively elderly . marketing: Yeah , that's the thing is that it didn't say in the survey , you know , whether , you know , these are the people that will pay more for a more stylish remote control , industrial designer: Right . Bu but but the survey did say that f things like voice recognition are more popular with them , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: so if you want to put in something stylish , then th it'll certainly be more popular with this i ye with the younger people as compared to older people , project manager: project manager: Then again I guess the th where it was most popular was the fifteen to twenty five bracket industrial designer: Right , and project manager: and the I don't know how often they're buying televisions . marketing: Well , that's when you go to uni , isn't it ? So , you know project manager: Yeah , but you don't have much money , generally . Yeah , project manager: I would've thought it's it's more that twenty five to thirty five , when people are really moving out and they've got their first job and they want their nice toys and user interface: you share a television or something that yeah . industrial designer: But still , if if you can go back to that slide and , how popular was it ? project manager: O oh it's on marketing: Oh , I've unplugged it . marketing: Do you want me to project manager: Here , let me industrial designer: That's alright , if you can just look it up on your computer , wh people between twenty five to thirty five , how popular was marketing: Yeah . marketing: Yeah , I kn I know what you're saying about the fifteen to twenty five year olds , project manager: Yeah . marketing: but it has been proven that that people of that age group have a higher disposable income because they don't have like , you know , if you're at university , you're paying your rent , project manager: Yeah , they've got no commitments and marketing: but you don't have a mortgage , you don't have a life insurance policy , industrial designer: Alright . marketing: you don't normally have a car , project manager: usually not a car and all of those things . industrial designer: So you're more likely to b marketing: so that just costs more than a car , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , and if we're if we're talking twenty five Euros as a price , that's not unaffordable , even for young people . marketing: No , that's what , that's like fifteen Pounds ? You know , I think project manager: Yeah . user interface: Yeah this this is not unaffordable , project manager: user interface: but the problem is whether people need it , whether they do have a T_V_ to use its full project manager: Yeah . We didn't have a T_V_ last year , project manager: But do they user interface: Yeah . project manager: But the T_V_s are often kind of someone's old T_V_ that's blah blah user interface: Common , the students yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah , and the remote control might not yeah , industrial designer: user interface: it might not even function with the old T_V_ . marketing: industrial designer: Bu but even even in the case of twenty five to thirty five it's quite popular , right ? project manager: marketing: Yeah , I d well we've we've got quite a d decent T_V_ . user interface: Or w maybe we can just kind of marketing: I think I think the fact that , you know , ninety one point two percent of fifteen to twenty five year olds are saying yes , I would pay more for a voice recognition remote control , does say quite a lot really . marketing: You know , so that and the disposable income and I don't think it's something to ignore , you know . user interface: Yeah , but at the same time I think maybe we can we can just decide to to have both of these groups as our target , project manager: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , if we ta if we take fifteen to thirty five , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Is that gonna have a an implication for the technical specs ? industrial designer: I was having a a general outlook on m most like sophisticated features , but voice recognition itself I'm not very sure about , because one of the p things that Cat pointed out was how do we go about implementing it ? and project manager: marketing: You do have it in your mobile phone though , don't you ? Because you have like every mobile phone now has like call this person and it calls them . With but with a T_V_ remote it's gonna be quite limited if we're t saying the main things people want to do is on off channel five , user interface: An industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: So like when you say change , except that's being said quite a lot on T_V_ , project manager: . marketing: Although I only watch Charmed , so really I wouldn't know industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but like so you'd just say remote five , you know , remote ten , remote one two nine . industrial designer: Okay , so it seems like a feasible thing to implement for for a limited user interface: Yeah . project manager: so if we go for the the fifteen to thirty five age group and then of course we're going to get th anyone who's older than thirty five who wants to look young and hip and trendy and has the money , user interface: Yeah but Yeah , yeah sure , yeah , yeah . user interface: Yeah , w well now the v the voice recognition if if it works wonderfully w we could possibly do away with all buttons , but I think this is not really the right moment yet , because people are just so used to buttons project manager: Yeah , user interface: and , yeah it's it's kind of safer , so we we need both , industrial designer: . industrial designer: What user interface: so the voice recognition would be just an extra , it wouldn't really reduce the size of the remote . industrial designer: What wh what I was thinking is that there is this separation between what the channels are on T_V_ and how they are numbered on the remote control . If we can do with away with that , our product can be really popular in the sense that a person can say , I want to watch I_T_V_ one instead of saying that I want to go onto channel number forty five . industrial designer: Yeah , so if if something like that can be incorporated , marketing: Yeah , that would be another way to do it . industrial designer: some kind of marketing: Yeah , but then the code word would be even more important , because Sky advertise on every channel , don't they , you know , project manager: Yeah . marketing: so then it would be you'd be watching Charmed , and then the Sky advert would come on and it would change to Sky . marketing: Yeah , yeah , industrial designer: Yeah , that's marketing: and that would be really annoying . user interface: Yeah but m but on the other hand , remote control isn't as close to you you probably might just just speak into it project manager: Yeah . user interface: and and the T_V_ would be already further away , so it might not pick up the other things coming from there . Do you not think that defeats the object of having voice recognition on a remote control though ? project manager: So that you can yell at it , industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , you know , so you have to have the remote control . marketing: It's more like if you lost it and it's down the sofa sometime , you can yell at it and it'll just change it , you can look for it later , yeah . user interface: Yeah , but then the remote control I think the idea is kind of it's it's not that it's sitting there on on top of the television , because then you could already yell at the television and you wouldn't you you wouldn't need the remote control , so the remote control is still something you keep n near yourself . marketing: Yeah , yeah , I suppose nearer to you but a b like if you have surround sound then industrial designer: yeah and it might become very difficult from a distance for the television to understand what you're saying because of the noise factor for the remote control project manager: . user interface: No , but I I I was just defending the the fact why why we want to keep the remote control close to us , a and not to yell at it from the distance . So wh another thing that can be used is that there can be a beeper button on the T_V_ , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: so you can go and press that button and and the remote control , wherever it is , it'll beep , project manager: project manager: but y you could have something , but i if it was something that you could like stick onto the T_V_ or something , user interface: Oh yeah , yeah . project manager: some like a two p if you bought it in a two part pack , so one part attaches to the T_V_ . marketing: Yeah , 'cause it's it's quite important that you don't lose the the bit to locate the remote control . But if we go away with that that kind of general specification in mind that we're looking at fifteen to thirty five year olds , we want it to look simple , but still have the buttons so it's easy to use , but only those key buttons , the major buttons and then one sort of menu one , and then voice recognition included as an option user interface: The major ones , yeah . project manager: but that obviously needs a little bit more working out as to whether it's really feasible and some of those problems we were mentioning . project manager: What we have to do now is to go back to our little places , complete our questionnaire and some sort of summarisation , which y you'll get immediately by email . Send me your presentations so that I can use them to make the minutes , and then we've got a lunch break industrial designer: project manager: and after lunch we go back to our own little stations and have thirty minutes more work . project manager: I'll put the minutes in that project documents folder , but I'll send you an email when I do it , so that you know . industrial designer: So where exactly is this i project manager: It should be on your desktop , so on the industrial designer: Ah , okay . project manager: So I'll put it I'll put them there as soon as I've written them . user interface: Did you find it ? industrial designer: Yeah , yeah in that one , user interface: It's just yeah , yeah . marketing: Oh , so y you want our PowerPoint presentations in there , hey ? project manager: Yeah , that would be great . user interface: Oh so so we'll just put them i there , project manager: Oh yeah , put them in there . project manager: So , if you put them in there , we'll all be able to see them and refer to them if we need to . project manager: as to where we're going from here , you're going to look at the components concept . marketing: project manager: You'll be looking you'll be looking at the user interface concept , user interface: something conceptual , yeah . project manager: on something conceptual and you're watching trends to see how we go and surely voice recognition'll fall off the map or something that marketing: project manager: we'll keep keep our options op ? industrial designer: Wha what was it again that I was supposed to look into ? Con components , oh . user interface: Sorry , but the next meeting are we going to have it right after lunch or shall we prepare our project manager: No , we have we have after lunch we have thirty minutes to ourselves to prepare , user interface: To prepare , okay , yeah , that's good . project manager: so that's fine , w before lunch we just have to complete the questionnaire and some sort of summary . project manager: Okay , so you can I guess we'll see you for lunch in a sec ? marketing: user interface: Okay , see you .<doc-sep>Who starts ? project manager: Well I'll start just with another presentation , so then we can look at th at the agenda for this meeting . project manager: Well in we'll just have a look at the at the notes from the previous meeting , what we thought we had dec decided . Y you also have received that mail , the new project requirements from our bosses ? industrial designer: No . project manager: Well I think we should show them before your presentations , because it's not really smart to to include some things we can't , because of the new requirements . project manager: We have to deb we have to decide it in this meeting what our function will be . So we said that we have to merge the strong points from our competitors , and look at their remote controls . project manager: We should make it compatible with our new D_V_D_ and other releases we have , our technical releases . And well they can have two functions , because you have a D_V_D_ and a television . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Yeah well that wa It's just thirty minutes ago , user interface: project manager: so it's not quite But well I have to do it . project manager: The materials well should be hard plastic with rubber from , and well the labelling of the buttons should be indestructible . industrial designer: I I disagree , but it's not t it's not my place to disagree I guess . project manager: Well the second is a bit sh pity because we just said we wanted to d include the D_V_D_ user interface: Oh . project manager: and they don't want it , because of our time we have for this project . project manager: So that's a shame , because especially for the third requirement we want to reach people under the thirty years . well it's a bit pity because it's just those people want to have one remote control for all those technical devices they can reach it . user interface: project manager: Well and our corporate image should stay rec recognisable in our products . So we have to use maybe a slogan , maybe a colour , and Yeah well on our remote controls the design has to be , well as we already said a actually , familiar . project manager: So maybe that's a slogan we can put somewhere on our remote control or something . project manager: Oh you have to start ? I didn't see anything about who had to start . marketing: I I just have to to think which file's mine , user interface: marketing: 'cause I was bit in a hurry . next sheet ? at first I tell you something about what people dislike about the current controls , because it's a smart thing to exclude those things . They also say , that's about I thought it was fifty per cent , that more money will be spent on better looking controls . So it's really important to make the the buttons for the common tasks kind of big or kind of flashy . Thus it might be might be smart to make a a big zapping button or something in the middle , so you can reach it with your thumb . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: So it might be sensible to make some kind of a button on your television , that's your your control beeps or something , that you can find this very easily . marketing: 'Cause it's a big I think fifty per cent of the users loses his its control , within the same room . industrial designer: Oh ? project manager: It should actually It should actually be loose from the television , user interface: Yeah . So if you deliver a small click-on device that you can put on your television , that bleeps to your remote control , everyone can use it . marketing: Yeah but what if you lose your click-on device ? project manager: No you can click it on your television . marketing: Yeah but if someone d somebody else uses it in ano other room or something ? project manager: Yeah in another room , yeah . marketing: Nee but it it specifically says it's the the control is lost in the same room . marketing: So Well a beeping device would be project manager: Well we'll have a look at it , yeah . So the the learning curve should be very short for the dumbest people should be able to use it . user interface: industrial designer: I think our user expert should also consider manual a manual for the remote , of course . industrial designer: users to add one ? Do you think ? user interface: I don't think marketing: I think you should put more time in the in the design of pick up and use , than a manual . Yes you should You should could take a look at it and and and know how it how it's supposed to work . industrial designer: Well maybe for the If you don't recognise a button who d who d who do I call wh when I don't know it ? marketing: Alright . But the designer should take it should Wie zeg ik dat ? Yeah , consider the consequences of using your remote . , we're Like the requirements said , we're gonna specify of we're gonna target a younger audience . research shows that they like to have a little L_C_D_ screen on their on their zapping device . I thought it was the age between sixteen and twenty , ninety nine per cent of the people like that . project manager: Well marketing: So it's very important we should definitely have that in our designs . project manager: Well with twelve Euro fifty as production cost , we can't afford an L_C_D_ industrial designer: It's going to be expensive . marketing: So if we want to s If we have a big If we make lots of of the stuff , maybe we can buy it very cheap , I dunno . project manager: Yeah well it's your your task to look into the costs of those industrial designer: We'll think abo we'll think marketing: Yeah , I don't know . project manager: It's not yet a standard development those so user interface: No and we have customers in multiple countries I think . project manager: We sh marketing: Well I do think L_C_D_ is more reachable than the speech recognition . Okay , how do you enlarge it , so that you can have the project manager: F_ five . industrial designer: well I think it's important for you to realise the basic function of a remote control . industrial designer: And I then can select I can select on the dings It goes to the next page . You have basically the energy , the power of the of the remote control , and the sender , w which is the LED , the the the the the the the the the bulb that sends the the infrared beam to the , no , to the set . user interface: industrial designer: And the the user interface sends the the different signals of the different buttons to the chip , and the chip sends it to the LED , and the LED sends it to the receiver . marketing: industrial designer: well I have put it in a in in in a a couple of basic steps . project manager: industrial designer: The chip produces Morse code , a specific code to indicate that specific button that is pressed , of course . And it uses transistors in the in the remote control to amplify and to send that signal again to the to the LED , which is the bulb , of course . project manager: industrial designer: Now the LED produces an infrared beam and signals the , well it's very simple , and signals the signals to the sensor on the T_V_ set , project manager: Yeah . marketing: industrial designer: and the T_V_ set also recognises the the the signal , and performs the assigned task . project manager: So it is also why we have to have a button that says I'm now busy with a D_V_D_ if we had done that . And if we if we're going to add an an L_C_D_ screen to it , it won't look anything like this , but This is very basic basically the the shape of of a remote control . It has very little buttons and user interface: industrial designer: But it it it's it's quite Yeah , you can easily recognise the buttons . So we have to change a little bit to that , so that it becomes more user-friendly , and that problems like R_S_I_ and those kinds of thing don't don't oc don't occur . marketing: But I think it's very important to make the power , channel and volume buttons near to the thumb , so you can't have R_S_I_ consequences . industrial designer: Yeah , because they are the the most important buttons and you can immediately marketing: Right . project manager: Well but but user interface: You can also like industrial designer: You don't have to look and and search for them . project manager: if you have the most used buttons all in one place , and you keep making the same well moves . project manager: But if y if you would put it at a different place , then you have to move your hands , user interface: project manager: and that's on of the things about R_S_I_ . marketing: We project manager: No but the most important buttons m maybe you can just put them a bit apart so you would reject R_ R_S_I_ R_S_I_ . And user interface: Maybe you can make , for for channel changing , two little buttons on the side of the remote , so you can just do like this . Like some little Gameboy things or some project manager: Yes I've saw that on m on mi mobile telephones they also have those buttons . marketing: But is that is that useable ? user interface: ? marketing: Do people , when they pick up a remote , know that they have to do that ? project manager: user interface: Well marketing: It's a f it's a new feature , project manager: Well it it's industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Yeah alright , but project manager: Well also i if someone puts picks up his remote user interface: Yeah , but if you s say them up and down , they they'll understand it , I think . If someone puts up i picks up his remote , and he picks up it he he touches the side then he's a already on the next channel . industrial designer: But in e in any case the the basic function should be indeed , and as you say at the thumb . industrial designer: I think that's a good idea , and and that the less important buttons , like the the the different channels , the numbers one two three four five as well , should be yeah well not in reach , because they don't use it all the time . industrial designer: And I have some pictures of the inside workings , but I don't want to get too technical , project manager: Oh I had to delete this , but I had to make a schematic of the of the new marketing: Alright . industrial designer: But I had too too little time , marketing: industrial designer: but don't don't look at it please . project manager: Well then we have still the time , so But we do have to come to a decision , right later on . project manager: user interface: Well I thought everybody on the website would see the same thing , but obviously that's not the case . user interface: The the method ? Well I used my own experience with remotes , took a good l look at the remotes on the corporate website , which are these two . user interface: marketing: These are already in use ? user interface: Yes , these are from from another manufacturer . user interface: Well , I thought that we reduce the the option to control the D_V_D_ also , and teletext and that kind of stuff . user interface: So we can can yeah customise the project manager: Well absolutely , but i th they all have to have something about the recognition from our company . user interface: You can marketing: But it project manager: So if y if you make a a front with just a a tiger on it , then our recognition is totally gone . marketing: Yeah , that's right user interface: Or you can you can can put the same symbol on on every remote . So the symbol's always on user interface: Yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah , so that you don't replace the symbol , yeah . Something like that , project manager: Or the th the the lowest part of the remote isn't changed by the front . I think industrial designer: Mike , can you put that picture from me on the in the Word documents file ? In Map ? user interface: Yeah , I will . project manager: Yeah ? marketing: there are two target audi audiences , and we've chose for the younger one . project manager: Well what if we I at I at home have a remote that has the most familiar buttons on the top , and the bottom side of the front has a little clip , marketing: project manager: a f a little You can click away and then you have f much more functions that most people don't use but s some do do . project manager: Well but because you say they their features are important , they want m a lot , industrial designer: No usually marketing: Yeah right . industrial designer: But project manager: but not user interface: Yeah , but what kind of features ? Like L_C_D_ screens and voice recognition . marketing: You see ? So we must build in something , or they will to go to the concurrent . project manager: On some calculators you have lo those little little L_C_D_ th that you can click on or something , marketing: Right . project manager: Those kind of things , because you also have those those program recognition for your V_ V_C_R_s . And well if y if your remote picks that up also , you they can display which programme you're currently watching . So it it just signals the the different sig the different symbols on the screen you have , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: because if you change to s channel two you have two on the screen and two on your on your on your L_C_D_ screen . It it could be such a little th that you can click in and out and you and you have it . user interface: It will industrial designer: But should it really be clickable , project manager: Well maybe . industrial designer: But that's of course a bit more expensive than the basic calculator design , with the scrolling text and that kind of thing . project manager: Well I think it's you got It just means it's a script that's keeps it rolling , marketing: Well it's just one script . project manager: and it's not That's five minutes off implementing time I think marketing: Yeah , five minutes of ja ja for programming . marketing: Alright , we go with the L_C_D_ screen ? project manager: well I think so , yes . Right , I don't know if I can find that , but project manager: We're g No but we're we'll have to look into that . user interface: Or maybe you will get that information project manager: we can use this board again , I think . user interface: At the top or at the bottom ? industrial designer: The L_C_D_ screen alright but we should start with the power button ? marketing: I think the top is more project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: user interface: Yeah but marketing: When you s How do you zap ? project manager: marketing: You just sit in your chair ? project manager: industrial designer: Huh ? user interface: Yeah but with with the L_C_D_ screen on the top it gets a bit unnatural . industrial designer: And then marketing: We'll draw two , and then we'll see industrial designer: Maybe we should centralise the discussion here . I dunno what you were talking about but marketing: No industrial designer: we are busy with something . He thinks it's better to put the L_C_D_ at the bottom , and I think it's better at the top . Why do you think it's better at the bottom ? user interface: well because most remotes have some space left at the bottom , and that way you can keep the shape recognisable for everybody . marketing: But your user interface: I c industrial designer: But you just can put the the the the the whole interface a bit down , so that there's room for the for the interface . user interface: Well I d I think that's that's ugly but marketing: The the ticker The L_C_D_ is like like small . But project manager: Well I th I think Mike Mike has a point , user interface: I th industrial designer: And and we can project manager: because when when when I use a remote I l I hate the buttons but buttons at the at the bottom . project manager: So when I u when I have to have an L_C_D_ s scr window marketing: Yeah right . marketing: We industrial designer: It looks more like a calculator to people , if you have the l the the the thing on top . user interface: Yeah you don't want project manager: We don't want them to look like a calculator . project manager: We want to look it like our original but familiar industrial designer: Yeah w well , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but you don't have to throw important aspe important aspect like familiarity completely away , marketing: High-tech . project manager: Yea industrial designer: because I think it's marketing: project manager: Maybe a bic better white We White ? industrial designer: I think it's still important to have it at the top , marketing: Width . format yeah format ? Line width ? Width ? industrial designer: because it's it's more familiar that way . Well project manager: Well let's talk about that later industrial designer: Maybe you should another pen . marketing: I think we have a few functions , and we can put the L_C_D_ above it , and still have lots of room at the bottom , where you can put your hand . user interface: At the bottom ? industrial designer: Well I'm the I I'm the designer , so user interface: In a few minutes marketing: At the bot user interface: Oh yeah , oh yeah , I totally agree . project manager: Well but what what if we we first decide the different functions , user interface: He's the boss . marketing: And moreover I think that you two should be come to consensus about the L_C_D_ s . industrial designer: While you have to agree , I can say it's like this and you must agree . project manager: We have a power button , setting buttons , L_C_D_ window , the number buttons user interface: The ten numbers ? Yeah ? industrial designer: Channel , yeah . user interface: I think we we should use something like this to The the channel up and channel down button ? Yeah , in circle , you know ? project manager: Yes . project manager: Well h ho industrial designer: But th th on this remote th these controls are for something else , a D_V_D_ player or something . They are for some video user interface: Yes , as I already said , we could drop some of these buttons . When when you put them all in the same place , the most used buttons , you're doing the same thing all the time , project manager: marketing: and that's just what R_S_I_'s all about . industrial designer: Yeah , it's it's also not good to completely stay in one position constantly with one hand . project manager: That's what I always do , industrial designer: Y project manager: because all my i important buttons are the same place . project manager: Yes ? user interface: Yeah but people don't like it when their buttons are all over the place . industrial designer: No but now y W would we have to choose a way in middle ? marketing: Frequency of button use . marketing: So the the channel channel buttons should be far far apart , I think , up and down . project manager: Up and down far apart from each other ? industrial designer: Far apart ? marketing: You thinking about R_S_I_ ? user interface: Yeah but project manager: Well not too much . industrial designer: marketing: Nei not too much , but user interface: The other the other two frustrations are far more important . So industrial designer: I think you can have the two buttons of up and down close together , but you don't have have to have volume control and and zapping button close together . project manager: Well for example the power button , you can user interface: Well they are used four times an hour , so project manager: If someone is constantly z zapping , it's not going to miss , that it that the power button is not right beside it . project manager: The power button can be user interface: Power bu button should be left at the top . marketing: The most important things we have to project manager: how are we going to do it with those numbers ? industrial designer: C c can you make you make We can use the drawing board now , I think . it it doesn't work well but But it it would be pretty pretty nice if we could just draw a simple thing . project manager: Well user interface: Well consensus , We we can put it in the middle , so project manager: Well it's a bit hard , because we are going to be individually . We're No project manager: That's a bit marketing: We're deciding now , so project manager: Yes . marketing: Top or bottom ? industrial designer: Well yeah I I still think it's it's quite important though to to have it at the top , so project manager: Yes it is . You say familiarity isn't important but project manager: Well what if we're going to now decide about the functions , and the design comes into the next round ? Plus the d th the design round is still to come huh ? marketing: Okay . industrial designer: As we we we we agreed , we do have a L_C_D_ . Are we going to do it like on Mike's screen with one button that says I'm going to do a t two number digital ? user interface: No . project manager: How do you want it to do then ? user interface: Well just when you push a one one and industrial designer: There's one two three four five six six seven eight nine zero . user interface: No , if you On most T_V_s if you press two numbers shortly after each other , d it industrial designer: Oh , like that . project manager: Okay anyone any oth other functionalities of our remote ? industrial designer: I think these are the the most important functions . You do need them ? project manager: No , we'd just said we didn't marketing: Yeah , I know . project manager: well because we can't integrate it with any other remotes , all those buttons on those pictures are irrelevant . marketing: project manager: We'll have those buttons about And the two important ones we're l f forgetting . project manager: Those two ? But it's just two , and we make a clip ? industrial designer: just two just two under under marketing: project manager: Th that's a bit waste . industrial designer: I I think project manager: Your L_C_D_ screen is going to go . user interface: Or at industrial designer: But you you can put two or three buttons under another section . industrial designer: You can just put it somewhere project manager: Yeah industrial designer: They they aren't used much , not as much as those other , so you can put it somewhere user interface: Oh , they can be small or round like buttons . What do you think those those buttons ? project manager: Well I think they should in an in an isolated part of the remote . Well any other marketing: Well if you you take those th If you user interface: Why go to video ? project manager: Go to video , that's always on your remote control . marketing: Yeah , but you can z you can zap t you can you can zap to the video channel from zero to industrial designer: The the video channel ? user interface: That's just zero . user interface: Yeah , but you can can zap down marketing: Yeah , but when you zap down zero you get to A_V_ . user interface: I think go to video is an irrelevant button , but project manager: Th that's the button No . industrial designer: But it's easy to go If you are at at channel fifty five and you want to go immediately to the video channel , you do you have to push a to to get below zero . project manager: I I think that one button is I use it user interface: marketing: Yeah , but if we're choosing to incorporate these buttons , you have to have channel setting , if you wa if you have a new T_V_ . project manager: Yeah ? marketing: Right all th these different buttons you have to project manager: These buttons , I don't have buttons for channel setting especially on my remote . project manager: It's it's incorporated with p m plus and down , those user interface: Yeah well y you must have . user interface: Yeah you yeah you have one one button from s set frequency o or something , project manager: user interface: and then with plus and min minus you can adjust the marketing: Right . project manager: Ch ch industrial designer: Yeah to oh yeah of course to configure the programme the Yeah . Oh the Okay button ? marketing: project manager: Oh you always have in the centre an Okay button , for your menu . project manager: user interface: I think things like contrast and brightness should be in the menu , yeah . project manager: We're going to go to our rooms , and we'll have to decide s things on our own I think . project manager: Well see you user interface: I thought we'd lunch right now , or not ? project manager: W w we have lunchtime , by the way , now so industrial designer: Yeah this is this is your thing <doc-sep>I'm gonna do an opening , talk about did you all get the minutes ? I e-mailed them to you . I'll talk about the new project requirements I've just received , and then we have to make a decision on our remote control functions . we need to keep in mind the user requirement specification , what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , the functions design , what effects the apparatus should have , and the working design , how the apparatus actually works to fulfil its function . marketing: shall we go in the order that you just did it ? project manager: Sure , please do . How do I hook my screen up ? industrial designer: I think , you might have to disconnect Rose . user interface: Well there's a wee a wee plug just just that one there marketing: Where does it go ? , I'm not supposed to move this , user interface: marketing: but user interface: Ah that's it , yep . marketing: user interface: And then you have to press function F_ eight project manager: Function , F_ eight , yeah . project manager: Is it plugged in all the way and you screwed it in and industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: alright project manager: It's taking it a little bit marketing: I've never attached to anything . marketing: I don't know if you guys are able to get access to the report that was online or if I'm the only one who is . So we're just gonna talk a little bit about the functional requirements that people specified when they were asked . They had a hundred subjects and their usability lab and they watched them watch T_V_ and recorded the frequency that they used particular buttons and the relevance that those buttons had . Focusing on their desires , people specifically said that they thought remotes were ugly , seventy five per cent of the a hundred subjects noted that and that they more importantly though , eighty per cent said that they would be willing to pay more for a fancier looking remote . also they did some questions on voice recognition and found that the desire for voice recognition was inversely related to age , so younger people were more inclined to want something with voice recognition , whereas the older people in the like sixty and above segment or so did not really think that they would pay more money for voice recognitions . marketing: people also had certain frustrations , that I think that we could try to take into consideration with our design . People are also frustrated with the difficulty it is to learn how to use a remote and I think that ties back to what you were saying before industrial designer: . It also mentioned something called R_S_I_ and I was hoping someone might be able to inform me as to what R_S_I_ is , user interface: Repetitive strain injury . So I guess sort of the carpal tunnel type thing , people do not like that , the repetitive use , I guess , caused a strain . looking at the needs people specified , the problem right now is that people's remotes are not matching their operating behaviour . People also zap like to change the channel , about sixty five per cent during an hour of use . So we really just need to focus in on those volumes and channel changers rather than things like the audio settings , the screen settings and the channel settings , because they're used much more infrequently and probably just complicate what's going on . So I think that some things that we might wanna think about , the idea of an L_C_D_ screen was brought up although they didn't have any details on what people's preferences on that were , so I dunno know if that's coming to me later , or something like that . But something for us to consider also just the phenomenon that less is more when it comes to the buttons on the remote or what we wanna make easiest to use , make sure that , you know , something like an audio setting isn't given as much importance and visibility on the remote as something like channel changing that's used a lot more often . And basically in order for us to win over to the consumer we just need to focus on what it looks like , that it has a fancy appeal and that it's not ugly and that it feels like the way they're gonna use it , so it doesn't give them any hand injuries or things like that . And I think that's in the shared , if I did it right , if anyone wants to look at it . It's a device that allows us to produce certain effects on our television , so i it's basically a communication device . We we tell the remote control what we want to do , it sends a message to the television saying change the channel , change the volume , yeah , adjust these settings , adjust the brightness . how do we actually go about designing a new television remote control ? First thing to do is to come up with the design specifications . We need to know what our final product is gonna be like , so we need a a clear idea of exactly what this product does , how it works , and what the end-user is gonna want from this product . Oh , a way I'd suggest that we could go about this is by designing several different prototypes of user interfaces for this product , and then trying to get some feedback about marketing: user interface: h how well these particular prototypes work , sorta find out what people think of 'em . So in some sense we're gonna we're gonna have to aim for a device which is fairly conventional in design so that we're not completely shocking people . But I think within that there is also room for us to introduce novel ideas and to make something that's that's perhaps a little bit different , something that stands out . the first of these is is technological ye what can we do with the current state of technology as it is . So as you mentioned things like voice recognition would would add to the price but it would also im improve the design of the product . user interface: So I had a look on the on the web to see if I could find a few examples of existing television remote controls . In analysing these we can consider what what things what's good about them , what things do they get right , what's bad about them , what's wrong with 'em , how we can improve on the designs that that that I found and what can we do to make our product stand out from from the large majority of remote controls . project manager: user interface: on the left here we've got an engineering-based design for a remote control , industrial designer: user interface: so it's one that's got lots of buttons , it's it's fully featured , everything you might possibly want to do is there , you know , it's got forward , backwards , up , down , channel numbers , volume , freeze frame . Yeah , it's it's fully featured and it might take a while to get to learn to use it , but once you've learned it you can you can do whatever you want with your T_V_ . It's just got the essential functions of the T_V_ changing the channel , play , stop , volume . It would be a lot quicker to learn to use it , but again th it's it's swings and roundabouts . personally wa what I want from a remote control is a device that's simple , it it's easy to use , it's got big buttons for doing the things I do most often , changing the volume , changing the channel . It it does everything that I need it to , as I said before , I'm quite lazy , I don't wanna walk across the room just to adjust my television . I also want something that that looks cool , and that that feels good , that's ergonomically designed . user interface: And I think that's that's why companies like Apple've 've 've made a lot of progress . industrial designer: Right , I really can't see what I'm doing , so does anyone have a project manager: You there it is . marketing: So wait , did it let you go on the Internet or was that just what it let you see ? user interface: that was just on the d on the company web site , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: Alright No , how do I play again ? project manager: the it's right above Draw . I had a bit of some issues with this , because I wasn't able to find everything I needed , but I guess that's we're still in early stages . Though th the thing about working design is the what we're trying to do as a working design is figure out how the aparata apparatus can fulfil its function . It works because it converts electrical energy to grinding the beans and then you put the bean through a filter and that filters out , and then you get coffee at the end that's nice and hot because of the combination of electrical energy and then the other things that are brought in to make it work . Don't know if I'm explaining that very well , but how do I get to the next s ah . So h the method as working designers figure out what you need to make it fulfil this practical function , what what needs to be done and how do we convert all the elements to make that done . marketing: industrial designer: So wha the easiest thing to do is to break down all the points at which you need something to happen . So you make a schematic of the way that the the energy is converted tsh towards this practical function . industrial designer: So the findings that I got very just very briefly is that you have a choice of the way that the information is projected to the receiver and in my opinion infra-red is the best way to do that 'cause you don't need a sight line . the user interface is critical here , because a lot of the things that happen in a remote control happen through the chip that controls that converts the electrical energy into data , which then goes through the infra-red , so the the chip that I think Ian is designing , is gonna be crucial . And really it all comes down to the to the user , because they're the one that's controlling most of the working design . So the components that we find here are the energy source , you know the battery or whatever that's gonna m make it work , then the chip , which converts the data , the user that's controlling the chip , and the infra-red bulb that's gonna let us move the data to the receiver . You have your energy source right there which then brings energy or information to the chip , which is also controlled by the users . You have energy going to the user who's controlling the chip ooh 's not what I wanted to do . So you have your energy source , your user interface who's controlling the chip , the chip also uses the energy , and the chip through the use of the user interface is gonna control the switch which will work your infra-red bulb , which will then bring the data to the receiver . And personal preferences , besides the fact that I can't spell , we need a long-lasting energy source , people don't wanna be changing it a lot . We need a straightforward interface , like Ian was saying , simple , not overwhelming it with information and we need a reliable and clear infra-red signal , so that you're not waving your remote around project manager: industrial designer: Rose , do you think you can give me a hand with this ? project manager: Yes , absolutely . marketing: user interface: What's up ? industrial designer: project manager: Lefty loosey , righty tighty . We have a couple new requirements that I was just e-mailed right before the meeting and that we have to keep in in in mind as we're creating this . project manager: We didn't bring it up yet , or at all in the meetings so far , but we're not gonna work with teletext because well it that's been taken over by the internet , so we're not gonna worry about we're not gonna worry about that . Oh , user interface: You don't have it in the States ? marketing: so project manager: It industrial designer: No . W d could would you care to explain it ? user interface: Oh , I didn't realise . yeah , it's like a I suppose it's kind of similar to a very very basic web browser . you have like you have numbers on your remote control , y and you type in the page number you want , marketing: user interface: so like you type a hundred on your remote control and this this kind of index appears on the television screen with just some some text and some very blocky looking graphics on it . And you just type numbers to go to different pages and it gives you information , mostly rather boring stuff like what's on T_V_ next and share prices and that kind of thing . industrial designer: But if you ever see the T_V_ saying like go to page one sixty on Ceefax now , that's what they're talking about . industrial designer: I have no idea why we don't have it , but user interface: marketing: That's good . Okay , well , we're not gonna the management has decided we're not gonna work with that . marketing: project manager: Okay and we're also gonna w like your question earlier whether this is going to be t for television , video , or etcetera . project manager: and finally there's more marketing , I think , our corporate image has to be recognisable . So while we're gonna make it look pretty we need to use our colour and our slogan i in the new design . user interface: So what's our corporate image like ? It's It's kind of yellow colour with we put fashion in electronics . project manager: Looks like , yeah , kind of a yellow and black and we have that the emphasis on the R_s in user interface: It's like double R_ . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Okay , so we want something that looks good project manager: Yep . You in your analysis of different market of the marketing , you identified that different groups wanted different things marketing: project manager: or had certain preferences , for example that that older people didn't really care for voice recognition , but younger people did . project manager: and so who are we aiming this at ? industrial designer: Well if we're gonna say that function fashion we put the fashion in in electronics then you automatically , I think , a sort of younger group that that's who's gonna be attracted to this . marketing: Yes , I do think , who's gonna have the money to buy that also , that one ? project manager: It's gonna be twenty five Euro remember , so it has to be avai marketable to whomever it is . user interface: Is it is it something that's gonna be sold separately from the television or is it something that comes w with a television ? 'Cause that would affect the way that we market it . project manager: Well at least right now what we're doing is deciding on just the remote itself , so it will probably be sold separately , twenty five Euro by itself . marketing: The only break-down that I was given in terms of age was the voice activation and basically there's a big jump , after thirty five people don't really care if it has voice , so it's like basically fifteen to thirty five that think that that's a good idea . marketing: I dunno I'm gonna be given any other numbers broken down in terms of age later , but if that's sort of the only quality that we have that is divided into age then we would wanna stick between the fifteen and thirty five range . industrial designer: Yeah , that's probably a population w quite a little bit of disposable income for use on technology anyway , so that might be a fairly good target group for us . user interface: I I would say no , because it's gonna add too much to the price . Especially if we are marketing it as a separate product , people are gonna be paying project manager: user interface: well , we've got a price limit of was it twelve twelve and a half Euros for to produce it ? project manager: . user interface: And I wonder if we can get voice recognition into that twelve and a half Euros without having to make too many other compromises . marketing: But what else are we gonna put , not that I'm really gung-ho about it , I don't know what else you can put in a remote to make it technologically advanced though . marketing: it can look really great and still have the same up-n-down buttons industrial designer: But right . marketing: and why's anyone gonna buy a new remote ? industrial designer: Well but why are we why are we aiming for a technological advancement ? Everything we're talking about is ease of use and simple and that doesn't necessarily mean more technology , marketing: marketing: If someone's looking to buy a new remote , don't they want like an upgrade ? I dunno . project manager: Upgrade ? Well , we can look for we can look at upgrade or we can look at user-friendly . project manager: Simplification , industrial designer: They could have a crap remote user interface: Yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: that came with their T_V_ that's just impossible to use , or maybe it broke , or maybe they're just missing it . And we also need to talk about if we're only gonna have the very simple ones or also have the other ones just separate somehow or industrial designer: . marketing: Can you like this may be too complicated , but , I wish I had something to explain it , like if it was just a simple , either this way or this way , that had like the main buttons and then you could like pull something out , kind of and like you got the rest the buttons , industrial designer: Ooh . user interface: The remote marketing: Do you know what I'm saying ? project manager: Kind of pull out of the side . Like some T_V_s they have a sort of a sliding screen on the remote control of it project manager: . user interface: So if you wanna do something complicated like programme your television or re-tune it , then you you open up this little hatch or or slide the screen down marketing: marketing: 'Cause then 's like people who don't wanna ever look at them , never even have to see them project manager: marketing: and if you like get the instruction manual that comes with it and you just don't even read it then you'll never even know that those things can pull out . marketing: And you're a happy person and everyone else doesn't have to have like two remotes , one that has the easy ones and one that has project manager: project manager: we have to be careful that that that doesn't impede the chip transmitting information , but that's gonna be mostly technological thing . project manager: Okay , so what are we emphasising ? I what in this project ? user interface: Si simplicity and fashion . project manager: Okay , those are very good goals , I think , that we have to keep in mind in with everything we do . Simplicity and fashion and , yeah , or usability speci however you wanna say that , which includes an emphasis on making the infra-red very functional , so that you don't have to travel around a lot . marketing: What can you do to like make the infra-red more functional , like why would it not be ? I'm just wondering . project manager: I think it's a lot to do with battery , but that's just my marketing: Okay . industrial designer: The battery and that I think that the chip takes the data and presents it well , without sort of scattering . industrial designer: The quality quality of all the components really , we can't really do anything shoddy work , 'cause it's user interface: Yeah . project manager: So our target group , we're saying , fifteen to thirty five ? marketing: Well , I dunno how useful that number is if we're not doing project manager: S voice recognition , which I kind of I kind of feel like voice recognition is not necessary in a remote control , marketing: Yeah . project manager: like it might be necessary for a T_V_ but not for the remote c , you know . user interface: It's , yeah , it's pretty it's pretty high-tech . user interface: marketing: And if the whole idea is you're using a remote then why would you have voice , project manager: marketing: like you know what and then it's like you wouldn't need a remote you'd just talk to your T_V_ . user interface: It's for , like , the ultimately lazy people , project manager: user interface: who can't even be bothered to pick up the remote . industrial designer: I marketing: Maybe if I get m more numbers , I'll e-mail you before the next meeting in terms of ages . But this doesn't divide up anything and there was only a hundred subjects also , project manager: marketing: which isn't , really isn't that representative , especially if it's a hundred subjects that th they then can subdivide into age groups that means there's very few in each age group , so industrial designer: Yeah , but I th I think regardless we're we're aiming for the under sixty five or something . I'd say we're can we narrow it down to maybe teenagers and families ? 'Cause that would go up to like fifty ? industrial designer: Or like single professionals or something . user interface: we we said simplicity is is one of the features , so it's going to appeal to people , maybe people who have problems with technology , you know , people who get scared by having lots of buttons , project manager: Okay . user interface: but then we've also got fashion , which is something that definitely appeals to younger people . marketing: Well maybe we don't have to defi define the target group by the demographic of age , project manager: Right . marketing: maybe we can define it by like the demographic of like h t how much money they have to spend or something like that , user interface: Yeah . project manager: So maybe it's more useful to d d to define objectives like fashion and simplicity than to find specific target group as far as age is industrial designer: Yeah , t probably . oh , there're a couple functions do we want something so that do we want some kind of thing to find it if it's lost ? Like a button on a T_V_ you can press industrial designer: . project manager: and it'll ring or something , I don't know like or beep ? marketing: H , like I said before , fifty per cent of of the fru f like frustration someone can have that was the biggest one and half the people said that happened and we all mentioned it before we knew about it . marketing: And if we're talking about making something easy that sort of goes along with it so it wouldn't be like a random thing to sort of add in . marketing: so project manager: Okay , we have to we have about four minutes left to define our functions . marketing: user interface: Which are kind of hidden away in some way or well not hidden but they're they're not as prominent as the main features . And we also want it to be fashionable , which I'm not sure if that's a function so much as a yeah marketing: on your coffee table , it's not like an eye sore , that kind of thing . Any other essential functions that we need ? Battery ? Do we need a long-life battery ? industrial designer: Battery battery use . user interface: but I dunno if you can project manager: Just 'cause it is an electronic device , the industrial designer: . I don't I don't think of a way you can operate a chip and convert that much data without without one . industrial designer: But you could maybe have it in a little charging station like a mobile phone , or like a little cradle for your iPod . industrial designer: I dunno , that might contribute to less people losing it too if it it stays in one place . project manager: We have to think about space in living-rooms , too , like 'cause they're industrial designer: . project manager: would you put it on top of the T_V_ ? I don't know , just think okay , that's that's a good idea , we'll keep it . project manager: after the meeting we're gonna each complete a sks a questionnaire and a summaries summary . I'll make sure to put up the minutes and the project documentation and including these PowerPoint slides . you each have individual actions , I_ I_D_ Industrial Design you've your components concept , User Interface , the user interface concept , market trend wa watching . marketing: project manager: And as as per last time you'll get specific incrat instructions from your personal coach e-mailed to you . And hopefully , I hope , next time you'll be able to access more of the web site that they they seem to tell you that you could . project manager: but Be sure to note any frustrations or any issues that come up in your in your summary . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: Did you were you able to like put yours in the group folder ? industrial designer: Yes , I just did that . industrial designer: Yeah ? project manager: Looks like there are looks like there's a second one kind of of mine that's that I didn't do , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Where is that ? Yours is project manager: Under the shared folder , I don't know it might not even be under yours as well . industrial designer: Yeah , that's what I have as well , R Rose project manager: Okay . marketing: No , but that's 'cause I think yours is in the e-mail separate , like it's not on the server

The first presentation focused on users' functional requirements, highlighting that 80% of people prefer a visually appealing remote and younger individuals prefer voice recognition. The second presentation discussed the technical functions of the remote, emphasizing the need for practicality and ergonomic design. The third presentation delved into the working design, introducing the main components such as the battery, chip, user interface, and infra-red bulb. The industrial designer further elaborated on the working design, including energy considerations, LED sender, different user interface options, and a chipboard with buttons. The group then decided on removable fronts, a small centralized LCD screen, and a power button with additional setting buttons. The presentations collectively emphasized the importance of functionality, beauty, and ease of use in the remote design.

Summarize the presentations and discussions on the working design, technical functions, and functional requirements.

professor b: U u u u , I meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what I meant , phd c: Oh . phd c: I did some experim , just a few more experiments before I had to , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: Great ! phd c: Was it last week or whenever ? , so what I was started playing with was the th again , this is the HTK back - end . And , I was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . And in the first round they do , I think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . And so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . It 's this program called H E professor b: But in HTK , what 's the difference between , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: OK . So what happens is , at each one of these points , you increase the number of Gaussians in the model . phd c: And so , in the final one here , you end up with , for all of the the digit words , you end up with , three mixtures per state , professor b: Yeah . So I had done some experiments where I was I I want to play with the number of mixtures . phd c: But , I wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . phd c: And so , I I ran a couple of experiments where I reduced that to l to be three , two , two , five , I think , and I got almost the exact same results . So , I I think m it only took something like , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: As opposed to ? phd f: Good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd c: So , even we don't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: And then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: And when you have your final thing , we go back to this . , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you don't do anything else . phd c: So it 's a very simple change to make and it doesn't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: So you you run with three , two , two , five ? That 's a phd c: So I , I I have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd c: I I thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: Oh , the other thing that I did was , I compiled the HTK stuff for the Linux boxes . So , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , as fast as , you know , five different machines . phd c: So , I 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but I can I can send email around about it . phd c: And so we 've got it now HTK 's compiled for both the Linux and for , the Sparcs . , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot CSHRC , it detects whether you 're running on the Linux or a a Sparc and points to the right executables . , and you may not have had that in your dot CSHRC before , if you were always just running the Sparc . phd c: I can I can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . phd c: So , together with the fact that we 've got these faster Linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd c: So after I did that , then what I wanted to do was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , see how how that affects performance . In fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: grad e: So at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: - huh . It goes from this , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . And I think what happens here is professor b: Might be between , shared , shared variances or something , phd c: Yeah . phd c: there because they start off with , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . I don't know yet the what happened Tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , things like the weights , professor b: Oh , this is a conference call for , Aurora participant sort of thing . professor b: Do you know who was who was since we weren't in on it , do you know who was in from OGI ? Was was was Hynek involved or was it Sunil phd a: I have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: Mmm , I just professor b: Oh , you don't know . So the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . phd a: Some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . , and the fact is that for right now for the English , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . And right now actually there is a thing also , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . phd c: How should that be done ? , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: phd c: Th - they 're professor b: But the but , the other thing phd a: In professor b: I don't know I haven't thought it through , but one one would think that each It it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: professor b: So phd c: Well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . But the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: Yeah . professor b: And the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . And so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , i it 's phd c: Why don't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? You know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . professor b: Well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . professor b: It 's just when you when you get all done , I think that they pro I m I I wasn't there but I think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . professor b: And , so they said " how much is significantly better ? what do you ? " And and so they said " well , you know , you should have half the errors , " or something , " that you had before " . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: Combine error rates and then professor b: Yeah . When when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: Oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , opinions about this . Some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and So , bu phd c: It sounds like they don't really have a good idea about what the final application is gonna be . professor b: Well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , if you really believe that was gonna be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . So , I think the hope would be that it would , it would work well for the good cases and , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . I I guess what I 'm , I I was thinking about it in terms of , if I were building the final product and I was gonna test to see which front - end I 'd I wanted to use , I would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that I was gonna be using the system in . professor b: I th phd c: So if if they don't know , doesn't that suggest the way for them to go ? , you assume everything 's equal . , y y , you professor b: Well , I I think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: Yeah . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , you improve the , the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: professor b: So , I guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: Yeah . professor b: So the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gonna try and do that , but you wanna see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , it 's a little different . phd c: So professor b: phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . That 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar Well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . professor b: are you gonna have w , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? Going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? On what kind of roads ? phd c: professor b: I I I think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . professor b: I think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . You wouldn't like that as soon as you step outside You know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: Well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: in these cases , if you go from the the , I don't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . professor b: You know , so , Yeah , the reference one , for instance this is back old on , on Italian , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . And so I think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean So you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you shouldn't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . professor b: So , you know , I I could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: it 's Yeah . Medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , I think , like on a highway and professor b: Right . phd a: So professor b: So it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: Same microphone but Yeah . But the way they have it now , it 's I guess it 's it 's They they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: Yeah . professor b: so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . professor b: Just say " OK , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens " . professor b: I think that that I I I gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any policy change because everybody has has , their own opinion phd a: Yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , MFCC but with a voice activity detector . So they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . phd a: And if we look at the result that Sunil sent , just putting the VAD in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e professor b: So nobody would be there , probably . professor b: So whose VAD is Is is this a ? phd a: they didn't decide yet . I guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so I don't know . , it 's not that the design of the VAD isn't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: Yeah . Per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , to make a good VAD you don't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . phd c: Wha - what do you mean ? phd a: Yeah , if i professor b: So y so you m s Yeah , but Well , let 's say for ins see , MFCC for instance doesn't have anything in it , related to the pitch . So suppose you 've that what you really wanna do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: Oh , oh . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , s region with speech . phd c: So there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the MFCC ? phd a: That 's not clear , but this e professor b: Well , for the baseline . professor b: So so if you use other features then y But it 's just a question of what is your baseline . Right ? What is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: I g Yeah . professor b: And so having the baseline be the MFCC 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good VAD phd c: I don't s But they seem like two separate issues . phd c: Right ? professor b: Unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what I think Stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the VAD . professor b: You should do both phd c: Right ? professor b: and and I I think that this still makes I still think this makes sense as a baseline . professor b: you know , we had the MFCC 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of HTK and made that the baseline . , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the VAD then that 's so be it . professor b: But , at least you have a starting point that 's , cuz i i some of the some of the people didn't have a VAD at all , I guess . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing wasn't so bad at all . And if it turns out that you can't improve on that , well , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use MFCC . , it seems like , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and MFCC 's , you know , or PLP or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , is gonna have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . They might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . phd c: It seems like whatever they choose they shouldn't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: Well , I think people just had phd c: You know ? professor b: it wasn't that they purposely brain - damaged it . professor b: And and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had V A Ds and half of them didn't , and the half that did did well and the half that didn't did poorly . So what happened since , last week is well , from OGI , these experiments on putting VAD on the baseline . And these experiments also are using , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , just after this . So I think spectral subtraction , LDA filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization doesn't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: Is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: I phd c: and ? phd a: I have no idea , because the issue I brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: Mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at OGI is one from from the proposed the the the Aurora prop , proposals , which might be much better . And what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: Right . professor b: When you say " we have that " , does Sunil have it now , too , phd a: I No . , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched when we put the neural network . And with the current weighting I think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . professor b: But how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: It 's like , fff , fff , ten percent relative . That 's phd a: - y w when I say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when I I , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . phd a: because it has , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , clean downsampling , and , what else ? , yeah , a good VAD . I I j , pr professor b: But the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd f: Isn't it phd a: And so professor b: So it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: And then I took this system and , mmm , w , I p we put the old filters also . So we have this good system , with good VAD , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , with the short filter it 's not worse . professor b: But what you 're saying is that when you do these So let me try to understand . professor b: that , on the i things are somewhat better , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . professor b: So does , when you say , So The th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: Yeah . Then we tried , to do something like proposal - two but having , e using also MSG features . So basically we try to , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , but it 's still , on the , t phd f: Oh , well , I have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with Matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: What sorts of phd f: Yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: We have some phd a: So we would be looking at , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: this , this , and this . So the So basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: OK . Yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as I recall , is you 're subtracting the the , the mel mel mel filter , spectrum from the FFT spectrum . phd a: So we have the mel f filter bank , we have the FFT , so we just professor b: So it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: No . phd f: We have here some histogram , phd a: E yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . So , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around O point three , and for voiced portion the mean is O point fifty - nine . phd c: How did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: We used , TIMIT and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: Yeah . We , use TIMIT on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th Yeah . phd f: But if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , I think . phd a: It seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . There could be also the , something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: Is this a a s a trained system ? Or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? Ho - how does it work ? phd a: Right now we just are trying to find some features . Hopefully , I think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: Because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced that seemed pretty encouraging . phd c: Well , y I I don't know that I would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from TIMIT labellings . phd c: Right ? So , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . phd c: i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . But another way of looking at it might be that , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . So another way of looking at it is that , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , give you the smooth spectrum . By going back to the FFT , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . So the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? So , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way I 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , classifier , phd c: professor b: but it 's more that , you know , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: Right . The the more obvious is that that well , using the th the FFT , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: Well , that 's the rea w w what I 'm arguing is that 's Yeah . professor b: But in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: Oh , sorry . professor b: and But what I 'm saying is that may be OK , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , th you know , structural reasons , like the one that Chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . professor b: So , what I 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . professor b: And your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , statistical characterizations of , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . professor b: obviously you have something about the excitation , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . So so I I would almost take a , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , I would almost just take a , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd c: So i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? Or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: I guess we don't know exactly yet . Th phd c: It 's not part of a VAD system that you 're doing ? phd f: No . phd a: Yeah , it could be , it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: professor b: But each one of the mixture components , you have , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . So it 's so , it seems l you know phd c: I think it 's a neat thing . , I know that , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the FFT and actually it wasn't wasn't wasn't so bad . , so it would s and and you know that i it 's gotta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: phd c: So how does , maybe I 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the FFT and the smoothed spectral envelope ? Wha - wh i i , how is that , ? phd a: we just How did we do it up again ? phd f: we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: phd f: And i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: S professor b: So you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd a: So we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm Yeah , it 's linear . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: Yeah . At the n at the center of the filter phd c: So you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the FFT vector ? phd a: Yeah . And I think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd a: Above , it seems that Well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and But professor b: Yeah . phd a: Well , it 's just professor b: No , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: So this is , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: Yeah . So i so i i this is , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: So this is Yeah . professor b: whatever it You - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: In log domain . But , anyway , and that 's phd c: So what 's th , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? I I don't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . What happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: Yeah . phd a: And the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the FFT because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the FFT , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . phd a: It 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: OK . So do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: So - It 's Y phd c: Is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? What does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: Yeah . This is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: Right . phd c: So , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: Fifteen p phd a: So it 's Yeah . professor b: to first order what you 'd what you 're doing , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd a: Do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: first order for speech recognition , you say " I don't care about the source " . professor b: The filters roughly act like a , a , a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . professor b: So if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . professor b: And the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: Yeah . professor b: And so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . And I call that lies because you don't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . professor b: That 's why I was going to the why I was referring to it in a more a more , conservative way , when I was saying " well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation " . This moved in the professor b: So so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . professor b: but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: Right . professor b: probably you wouldn't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying " OK , our feature set will be the FFT " , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . professor b: And then you go back to the intuition that , well , you don't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . professor b: And it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , in frequency , phd c: professor b: so , phd c: So you don't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: not here . professor b: But presumably you 'll see something that won't have this kind of , regularity in frequency , in the phd a: But Yeah . phd c: And so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: It seems , yeah . The mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: No , no , no . But th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: Oh ! phd a: So if if you take this frame , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: . Cool ! phd f: I have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: Oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: Oh , OK phd f: But they are a difference . phd a: Yeah , that 's phd f: Because here the FFT is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: Oh . phd a: because if we use the standard , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you don't really have you don't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: phd a: Yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: Oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . Well , it looks better , but , the thing is if if , if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j , need to do place along an FFT , it may be it may be pushing things . professor b: And and , phd c: Would you would you wanna do this kind of , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: maybe . The spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? Is it being done at the level of FFT bins or at the level of , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: I guess it depends . professor b: how are they doing it ? phd a: How they 're doing it ? Yeah . Filter bank , phd a: no ? It 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . So we 'll perhaps try to convince OGI people to use the new the new filters and Yeah . , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , source , phd a: not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but I wi I will call them and professor b: OK . phd a: now they are I think they have more time because they have this well , Eurospeech deadline is over phd c: When is the next , Aurora deadline ? phd a: and It 's , in June . professor b: Early June , late June , middle June ? phd a: I don't know w professor b: . , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , phd f: Yeah . , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: Oh , I I am doing this . I 'm sorry , but I think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that I don't speak . phd f: Because professor b: You know , we 'll get we 'll get to , Spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , you too . phd f: After the after , the result for the TI - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd c: Y professor b: We like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , Bourlard - Hermansky - Morgan , frame of mind . So it 's , anything to talk about ? grad d: N , not not not much is new . So when I talked about what I 'm planning to do last time , I said I was , going to use Avendano 's method of , using a transformation , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . , but , I decided not to do that after all because I I realized to use it I 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: grad d: and right now I think our feature computation is set to up to , take , audio as input , in general . So I decided that I I 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . Right ? grad d: or or even if I 'm using our system , I was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: Yeah ? grad d: because then I could just feacalc as is and I wouldn't have to change the code . , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: Right . professor b: but , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . But anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . So that 's That was it , huh ? grad d: That Yeah , e That 's it , that 's it . I went off on a little tangent this past week , looking at , modulation s spectrum stuff , and and learning a bit about what what , what it is , and , the importance of it in speech recognition . And I found some some , neat papers , historical papers from , Kanedera , Hermansky , and Arai . grad e: And they they did a lot of experiments where th where , they take speech and , e they modify the , they they they measure the relative importance of having different , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . grad e: And they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , is im important for speech recognition . professor b: And and , the the MSG features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: Yeah . professor b: But , I guess , I thought you had brought this up in the context of , targets somehow . professor b: But i m grad e: professor b: i it 's not , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: Mmm . professor b: or a grad e: I was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: So maybe , le phd c: Should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits <doc-sep>phd e: So it 's well , it 's spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering , depending on if we put if we square the transfer function or not . phd e: And then with over - estimation of the noise , depending on the , the SNR , with smoothing along time , smoothing along frequency . phd e: And , the best result is when we apply this procedure on FFT bins , with a Wiener filter . phd e: So it 's good because it 's difficult when we have to add noise to to to find the right level . It 's the same , idea but it 's working on mel bands , and it 's a spectral subtraction instead of Wiener filter , and there is also a noise addition after , cleaning up the mel bins . professor b: if you look at databases , the , one that has the smallest smaller overall number is actually better on the Finnish and Spanish , but it is , worse on the , Aurora phd e: It 's worse on professor b: on the , TI - TI - digits , phd e: on the multi - condition in TI - digits . But , when you say u , unified do you mean , it 's one piece of software now , or ? phd e: So now we are , yeah , setting up the software . , and we phd a: So what 's what 's happened ? I think I 've missed something . So a week ago maybe you weren't around when when when Hynek and Guenther and I ? phd c: Hynek was here . And then if I summarize somebody can tell me if I 'm wrong , which will also be possibly helpful . phd e: p - p - p professor b: We , we looked at , anyway we after coming back from QualComm we had , you know , very strong feedback and , I think it was Hynek and Guenter 's and my opinion also that , you know , we sort of spread out to look at a number of different ways of doing noise suppression . professor b: we had a long discussion about how they were the same and how they were d , completely different . professor b: And , fundamentally they 're the same sort of thing but the math is a little different so that there 's a a there 's an exponent difference in the index you know , what 's the ideal filtering , and depending on how you construct the problem . professor b: And , I guess it 's sort you know , after after that meeting it sort of made more sense to me because , if you 're dealing with power spectra then how are you gonna choose your error ? And typically you 'll do choose something like a variance . Whereas when you 're when you 're doing the the , looking at it the other way , you 're gonna be dealing with signals phd c: professor b: and you 're gonna end up looking at power , noise power that you 're trying to reduce . And so , eh so there should be a difference of you know , conceptually of of , a factor of two in the exponent . professor b: But there 're so many different little factors that you adjust in terms of of , over - subtraction and and and and and so forth , that arguably , you 're c and and and the choice of do you do you operate on the mel bands or do you operate on the FFT beforehand . There 're so many other choices to make that are are almost well , if not independent , certainly in addition to the choice of whether you , do spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering , that , @ @ again we sort of felt the gang should just sort of figure out which it is they wanna do and then let 's pick it , go forward with it . And and , we said , take a week , go arm wrestle , you know , grad d: Oh . professor b: And and so they so instead they went to Yosemite and bonded , and and they came out with a single single piece of software . phd a: So so you guys have combined or you 're going to be combining the software ? professor b: . phd c: Well , the piece of software has , like , plenty of options , phd e: Oh boy . professor b: Well , that 's fine , but the thing is the important thing is that there is a piece of software that you that we all will be using now . phd e: Well , if we want to , like , optimize different parameters of phd c: Parameters . But , still so , there will be a piece of software with , will give this system , the fifty - three point sixty - six , by default and professor b: phd a: I I I don't have a sense of phd e: It 's just one percent off of the best proposal . professor b: So it so , it 's it it 's not using our full bal bag of tricks , if you will . professor b: And , and it it is , very close in performance to the best thing that was there before . , but , you know , looking at it another way , maybe more importantly , we didn't have any explicit noise , handling stationary dealing with e e we didn't explicitly have anything to deal with stationary noise . phd a: So will the neural net operate on the output from either the Wiener filtering or the spectral subtraction ? Or will it operate on the original ? professor b: Well , so so so argu arguably , what we should do , I gather you have it sounds like you have a few more days of of nailing things down with the software and so on . But and then but , arguably what we should do is , even though the software can do many things , we should for now pick a set of things , th these things I would guess , and not change that . And I think , you know , that our goal should be by next week , when Hynek comes back , to , really just to have a firm path , for the you know , for the time he 's gone , of of , what things will be attacked . But I would I would I would thought think that what we would wanna do is not futz with this stuff for a while because what 'll happen is we 'll change many other things in the system , phd a: professor b: and then we 'll probably wanna come back to this and possibly make some other choices . phd a: But just conceptually , where does the neural net go ? Do do you wanna h run it on the output of the spectrally subtracted ? phd e: Mmm . professor b: Well , depending on its size Well , one question is , is it on the , server side or is it on the terminal side ? , if it 's on the server side , it you probably don't have to worry too much about size . So the issue is is , for instance , could we have a neural net that only looked at the past ? phd a: Right . professor b: what we 've done in in the past is to use the neural net , to transform , all of the features that we use . This is essentially , I guess it 's it 's more or less like a spee a speech enhancement technique here phd a: professor b: right ? where we 're just kind of creating new if not new speech at least new new FFT 's that that have you know , which could be turned into speech , that that have some of the noise removed . professor b: after that we still do a mess of other things to to produce a bunch of features . And then the the way that we had it in our proposal - two before , we had the neural net transformed features and we had the untransformed features , which I guess you you actually did linearly transform with the KLT , phd e: Yeah . professor b: but but but , to orthogonalize them but but they were not , processed through a neural net . And Stephane 's idea with that , as I recall , was that you 'd have one part of the feature vector that was very discriminant and another part that wasn't , phd a: professor b: which would smooth things a bit for those occasions when , the testing set was quite different than what you 'd trained your discriminant features for . , y you know , that 's still being debated by the by people in Europe but , no matter how they end up there , it 's not going to be unlimited amounts , phd a: Yeah . And I think those that we last time we agreed that those are the three things that have to get , focused on . phd a: What was the issue with the VAD ? professor b: Well , better ones are good . phd a: And so the w the default , boundaries that they provide are they 're OK , but they 're not all that great ? professor b: I guess they still allow two hundred milliseconds on either side or some ? Is that what the deal is ? phd e: phd e: And all the speech pauses , which is Sometimes on the SpeechDat - Car you have pauses that are more than one or two seconds . And , yeah , it seems to us that this way of just dropping the beginning and end is not We cou we can do better , I think , phd a: phd e: because , with this way of dropping the frames they improve over the baseline by fourteen percent and Sunil already showed that with our current VAD we can improve by more than twenty percent . phd e: So , our current VAD is is more than twenty percent , while their is fourteen . And another thing that we did also is that we have all this training data for let 's say , for SpeechDat - Car . And if we just take only the , VAD probabilities computed on the clean signal and apply them on the far - field , test utterances , then results are much better . phd e: So it means that there are stim still phd a: How how much latency does the , does our VAD add ? phd e: If if we can have a good VAD , well , it would be great . phd a: Is it significant , phd e: right now it 's , a neural net with nine frames . phd a: or ? phd e: So it 's forty milliseconds plus , the rank ordering , which , should be phd c: Like another ten frames . professor b: So what 's the ? If you ignore , the VAD is sort of in in parallel , isn't i isn't it , with with the ? , it isn't additive with the the , LDA and the Wiener filtering , and so forth . phd c: So we , if so if we if so which is like if we reduce the delay of VA So , the f the final delay 's now ba is f determined by the delay of the VAD , because the LDA doesn't have any delay . So if we re if we reduce the delay of the VAD , it 's like effectively reducing the delay . phd a: How how much , delay was there on the LDA ? phd c: So the LDA and the VAD both had a hundred millisecond delay . So and they were in parallel , so which means you pick either one of them phd a: Mmm . professor b: And there didn't seem to be any , penalty for that ? There didn't seem to be any penalty for making it causal ? phd c: Pardon ? Oh , no . phd c: Or something like that professor b: And he says Wiener filter is is forty milliseconds delay . phd a: What amount of latency are you thinking about when you say that ? professor b: . professor b: You know , they 're saying , one group is saying a hundred and thirty milliseconds and another group is saying two hundred and fifty milliseconds . phd a: Were you thinking of the two - fifty or the one - thirty when you said we should have enough for the neural net ? professor b: Well , it just it when we find that out it might change exactly how we do it , is all . professor b: how much effort do we put into making it causal ? , I think the neural net will probably do better if it looks at a little bit of the future . And , you know , how how much time should we put into into that ? So it 'd be helpful if we find out from the the standards folks whether , you know , they 're gonna restrict that or not . But I think , you know , at this point our major concern is making the performance better and and , if , something has to take a little longer in latency in order to do it that 's you know , a secondary issue . professor b: But if we get told otherwise then , you know , we may have to c clamp down a bit more . phd c: So , the one one one difference is that was there is like we tried computing the delta and then doing the frame - dropping . phd c: The earlier system was do the frame - dropping and then compute the delta on the professor b: - huh . So , yeah , what we do is we compute the silence probability , convert it to that binary flag , professor b: - huh . phd c: and then in the end you c up upsample it to match the final features number of phd e: phd a: Did that help then ? phd c: It seems to be helping on the well - matched condition . And it actually r reduced a little bit on the high mismatch , so in the final weightage it 's b b better because the well - matched is still weighted more than professor b: So , @ @ , you were doing a lot of changes . Did you happen to notice how much , the change was due to just this frame - dropping problem ? What about this ? phd c: y you had something on it . Sometime we we change two two things together and But it 's around maybe it 's less than one percent . But like we 're saying , if there 's four or five things like that then pretty sho soon you 're talking real improvement . Well , we can do the frame - dropping on the server side or we can just be careful at the terminal side to send a couple of more frames before and after , and So . phd a: You have , So when you , maybe I don't quite understand how this works , but , couldn't you just send all of the frames , but mark the ones that are supposed to be dropped ? Cuz you have a bunch more bandwidth . , it it always seemed to us that it would be kind of nice to in addition to , reducing insertions , actually use up less bandwidth . phd a: If the net 's on the server side then it could use all of the frames . It 's , like , you mean you just transferred everything and then finally drop the frames after the neural net . Right now we are , ri Right now what wha what we did is , like , we just mark we just have this additional bit which goes around the features , saying it 's currently a it 's a speech or a nonspeech . phd c: So there is no frame - dropping till the final features , like , including the deltas are computed . phd c: And after the deltas are computed , you just pick up the ones that are marked silence and then drop them . professor b: So it would be more or less the same thing with the neural net , I guess , actually . Yeah , that 's what that 's what that 's what , this is doing right now . So , what 's , ? That 's that 's a good set of work that that , phd c: Just one more thing . Like , should we do something f more for the noise estimation , because we still ? professor b: Yeah . I tried just plugging the , Guenter noise estimation on this system , and it , it got worse . professor b: it does seem like , you know , i i i i some compromise between always depending on the first fifteen frames and a a always depending on a a pause is is is a good idea . , maybe you have to weight the estimate from the first - teen fifteen frames more heavily than than was done in your first attempt . No , do you have any way of assessing how well or how poorly the noise estimation is currently doing ? phd e: Mmm . phd e: We don't have nothing that phd c: Is there was there any experiment with ? Well , I I did The only experiment where I tried was I used the channel zero VAD for the noise estimation and frame - dropping . So I don't have a I don't have a split , like which one helped more . phd c: So , that 's the professor b: So that 's something you could do with , this final system . professor b: If it 's , you know , essentially not better , then it 's probably not worth phd e: Yeah . It 's , like , ev even even if I use a channel zero VAD , I 'm just averaging the the s power spectrum . But the Guenter 's argument is , like , if it is a non - stationary segment , then he doesn't update the noise spectrum . So , th the Guenter was arguing that , even if you have a very good VAD , averaging it , like , over the whole thing is not a good idea . phd c: Because you 're averaging the stationary and the non - stationary , and finally you end up getting something which is not really the s because , you anyway , you can't remove the stationary part fr , non - stationary part from the signal . So , that 's so that 's still a slight difference from what Guenter is trying professor b: Well , yeah . And and also there 's just the fact that , eh , although we 're trying to do very well on this evaluation , we actually would like to have something that worked well in general . And , relying on having fifteen frames at the front or something is is pretty phd c: Yeah , yeah . , it 'd certainly be more robust to different kinds of input if you had at least some updates . What what do you , what do you guys see as as being what you would be doing in the next week , given wha what 's happened ? phd c: Cure the VAD ? phd e: Yeah . phd e: So , should we keep the same ? I think we might try to keep the same idea of having a neural network , but training it on more data and adding better features , I think , but because the current network is just PLP features . phd e: There 's no RASTA , no phd a: So , I I don't remember what you said the answer to my , question earlier . Will you will you train the net on after you 've done the spectral subtraction or the Wiener filtering ? professor b: This is a different net . phd c: So we have a VAD which is like neur that 's a neural net . phd c: So , right now we have , like , we have the cleaned - up features , so we can have a better VAD by training the net on the cleaned - up speech . So it 's , like , where do we want to put the VAD ? , it 's like phd a: Can you use the same net to do both , or ? phd c: For phd a: Can you use the same net that you that I was talking about to do the VAD ? phd c: phd c: So the net the final net , which is the feature net so that actually comes after a chain of , like , LDA plus everything . And and you can actually do it for final frame - dropping , but not for the VA - f noise estimation . professor b: You see , the idea is that the , initial decision to that that you 're in silence or speech happens pretty quickly . phd a: Cuz that 's used by some of these other ? professor b: And that Yeah . And that 's sort of fed forward , and and you say " well , flush everything , it 's not speech anymore " . professor b: it is used , Yeah , it 's only used f Well , it 's used for frame - dropping . professor b: because , you know , there 's if you have more than five hundred milliseconds of of of nonspeech then you figure it 's end of utterance or something like that . , keeping the same method but but , seeing if you cou but , noise estimation could be improved . And then , later on in the month I think we wanna start including the neural net at the end . phd a: So , Hynek is coming back next week , you said ? professor b: Yeah , that 's the plan . professor b: I guess the week after he 'll be , going back to Europe , and so we wanna phd a: Is he in Europe right now or is he up at ? professor b: No , no . , the idea was that , we 'd we 'd sort out where we were going next with this with this work before he , left on this next trip . , Barry , you just got through your quals , so I don't know if you have much to say . No , just , looking into some some of the things that , John Ohala and Hynek , gave as feedback , as as a starting point for the project . In in my proposal , I I was thinking about starting from a set of , phonological features , or a subset of them . grad d: He said , these these phonological features are are sort of figments of imagination also . grad d: Ye professor b: But we don't have too much trouble recognizing synthetic speech since we create it in the first place . grad d: just looking at the data and seeing what 's similar and what 's not similar . grad d: So , I 'm I 'm , taking a look at some of , Sangita 's work on on TRAPS . She did something where , w where the TRAPS learn She clustered the the temporal patterns of , certain certain phonemes in in m averaged over many , many contexts . grad d: And , so , those are interesting things to phd a: So you 're now you 're sort of looking to try to gather a set of these types of features ? grad d: Right . grad d: you know ? A a a set of small features and continue to iterate and find , a better set <doc-sep>OK , so , you 've got some , Xerox things to pass out ? phd a: Yeah , professor d: That are phd a: . , lowering the word hour rate is fine , but having big font ! phd a: Next time we will put colors or something . phd a: OK , s so there is kind of summary of what has been done professor d: Go ahead . So since last week we 've started to fill the column with features w with nets trained on PLP with on - line normalization but with delta also , because the column was not completely professor d: phd a: well , it 's still not completely filled , professor d: phd a: but we have more results to compare with network using without PLP and finally , hhh , ehhh PL - delta seems very important . If you take , let 's say , anyway Aurora - two - B , so , the next t the second , part of the table , professor d: phd a: when we use the large training set using French , Spanish , and English , you have one hundred and six without delta and eighty - nine with the delta . professor d: a And again all of these numbers are with a hundred percent being , the baseline performance , phd a: Yeah , on the baseline , yeah . So professor d: but with a mel cepstra system going straight into the HTK ? phd a: Yeah . So now we see that the gap between the different training set is much much smaller professor d: Yes . phd a: But , actually , for English training on TIMIT is still better than the other languages . If you take the second set of experiment for Italian , so , the mismatched condition , professor d: phd a: when we use the training on TIMIT so , it 's multi - English , we have a ninety - one number , professor d: phd a: And , yeah , and here the gap is still more important between using delta and not using delta . If y if I take the training s the large training set , it 's we have one hundred and seventy - two , professor d: Yes . Yeah , so the second point is that we have no single cross - language experiments , that we did not have last week . , so this is training the net on French only , or on English only , and testing on Italian . phd a: And training the net on French only and Spanish only and testing on , TI - digits . What we see is that these nets are not as good , except for the multi - English , which is always one of the best . Yeah , then we started to work on a large dat database containing , sentences from the French , from the Spanish , from the TIMIT , from SPINE , from English digits , and from Italian digits . phd a: and , actually we did this before knowing the result of all the data , so we have to to redo the the experiment training the net with , PLP , but with delta . Well , it 's it 's better than the net using French , Spanish , and English only . The first one , yeah , is combining , two feature streams , using and each feature stream has its own MPL . And the third one is to u use a single KLT trans transform features as well as MLP outputs . You know you can you can comment these results , phd b: Yes , I can s I would like to say that , for example , mmm , if we doesn't use the delta - delta , we have an improve when we use s some combination . But when phd a: Yeah , we ju just to be clear , the numbers here are recognition accuracy . phd b: w Yeah , this Yeah , this number recognition acc phd a: So it 's not the Again we switch to another phd b: Yes , and the baseline the baseline have i is eighty - two . phd b: Yeah phd a: So it 's experiment only on the Italian mismatched for the moment for this . phd b: And first in the experiment - one I I do I I use different MLP , professor d: And I try to combine different type of feature , but the result is that the MSG - three feature doesn't work for the Italian database because never help to increase the accuracy . phd a: Yeah , eh , actually , if w we look at the table , the huge table , we see that for TI - digits MSG perform as well as the PLP , professor d: phd a: but this is not the case for Italian what where the error rate is c is almost twice the error rate of PLP . phd a: So , well , I don't think this is a bug but this this is something in probably in the MSG process that I don't know what exactly . Perhaps the fact that the the there 's no low - pass filter , well , or no pre - emp pre - emphasis filter and that there is some DC offset in the Italian , or , well , something simple like that . But that we need to sort out if want to get improvement by combining PLP and MSG professor d: phd a: And as Carmen said , if we combine the two , we have the result , basically , of PLP . professor d: I , the , baseline system when you said the baseline system was , eighty - two percent , that was trained on what and tested on what ? That was , Italian mismatched d , digits , is the testing , phd b: Yeah . professor d: So the " mismatch " just refers to the noise and and , microphone and so forth , phd a: Yeah . professor d: right ? So , did we have So would that then correspond to the first line here of where the training is is the Italian digits ? phd b: The train the training of the HTK ? professor d: The phd b: Yes . So , So what that says is that in a matched condition , we end up with a fair amount worse putting in the PLP . Now w would do we have a number , I suppose for the matched I I don't mean matched , but use of Italian training in Italian digits for PLP only ? phd b: yes ? phd a: yeah , so this is basically this is in the table . phd a: Fift - So No , it 's it 's the phd b: No . professor d: No , fifty - two percent of eighty - two ? phd a: Of of of eighteen phd b: Eighty . So professor d: Oh this is accuracy ! phd a: so we have nine nine let 's say ninety percent . professor d: OK , so even just PLP , it is not , in the matched condition I wonder if it 's a difference between PLP and mel cepstra , or whether it 's that the net half , for some reason , is not helping . It 's not Do you have this result with PLP alone , j fee feeding HTK ? professor d: So , s phd a: That That 's what you mean ? phd b: Yeah , phd a: Just PLP at the input of HTK . professor d: so adding MSG phd a: professor d: Well , but that 's yeah , that 's without the neural net , phd a: Yeah , that 's without the neural net professor d: right ? phd a: and that 's the result basically that OGI has also with the MFCC with on - line normalization . phd b: phd a: Eighty - two is the it 's the Aurora baseline , so MFCC . Then we can use well , OGI , they use MFCC th the baseline MFCC plus on - line normalization professor d: Oh , I 'm sorry , I k I keep getting confused because this is accuracy . phd a: So what happ what happens is that when we apply on - line normalization we jump to almost ninety percent . If we use n neural network , even if the features are not correctly normalized , we jump to ninety percent . So professor d: So we go from eighty - si eighty - eight point six to to ninety , or something . phd a: Well , ninety No , I ninety It 's around eighty - nine , ninety , eighty - eight . So , So actually , the answer for experiments with one is that adding MSG , if you does not help in that case . professor d: The other ones , we 'd have to look at it , but And the multi - English , does So if we think of this in error rates , we start off with , eighteen percent error rate , roughly . professor d: and we almost , cut that in half by putting in the on - line normalization and the neural net . About , sixteen percent or something of the error , if we use multi - English instead of the matching condition . OK ? So then you 're assuming multi - English is closer to the kind of thing that you could use since you 're not gonna have matching , data for the for the new for the other languages and so forth . , one qu thing is that , I think I asked you this before , but I wanna double check . When you say " ME " in these other tests , that 's the multi - English , phd a: That 's it 's a part it 's professor d: but it is not all of the multi - English , right ? It is some piece of part of it . professor d: And the multi - English is how much ? phd b: You have here the information . professor d: Oh , so you used almost all You used two thirds of it , phd a: Yeah . So , it it 's still it hurts you seems to hurt you a fair amount to add in this French and Spanish . grad c: Well Stephane was saying that they weren't hand - labeled , phd a: Yeah , it 's phd b: Yeah . Mmm , with the experiment type - two , I first I tried to to combine , nnn , some feature from the MLP and other feature another feature . phd b: And we s we can first the feature are without delta and delta - delta , and we can see that in the situation , the MSG - three , the same help nothing . phd b: And then I do the same but with the delta and delta - delta PLP delta and delta - delta . And they all p but they all put off the MLP is it without delta and delta - delta . And we have a l little bit less result than the the the baseline PLP with delta and delta - delta . phd b: Maybe if when we have the new the new neural network trained with PLP delta and delta - delta , maybe the final result must be better . phd a: Actually , just to be some more phd b: phd a: Do This number , this eighty - seven point one number , has to be compared with the professor d: Yes , yeah , it can't be compared with the other phd a: Which number ? professor d: cuz this is , with multi - English , training . professor d: So you have to compare it with the one over that you 've got in a box , which is that , the eighty - four point six . professor d: So phd a: Yeah , but in this case for the eighty - seven point one we used MLP outputs for the PLP net professor d: Yeah . phd b: No , but they they feature @ @ without phd a: So we use feature out , net outputs together with features . So yeah , this is not perhaps not clear here but in this table , the first column is for MLP and the second for the features . So you 're saying w so asking the question , " What what has adding the MLP done to improve over the , phd a: So , just Yeah so , actually it it it decreased the the accuracy . phd a: And even the MLP alone What gives the MLP alone ? Multi - English PLP . So we have our eighty - three point six and now eighty - eighty point six , phd b: But phd a: that gives eighty - seven point one . Eighty - s I thought it was eighty Oh , OK , eighty - three point six and eighty eighty - eight point six . But I don't know but maybe if we have the neural network trained with the PLP delta and delta - delta , maybe tha this can help . professor d: Well , that 's that 's one thing , but see the other thing is that , it 's good to take the difficult case , but let 's let 's consider what that means . What what we 're saying is that one o one of the things that my interpretation of your your s original suggestion is something like this , as motivation . When we train on data that is in one sense or another , similar to the testing data , then we get a win by having discriminant training . professor d: When we train on something that 's quite different , we have a potential to have some problems . professor d: And , if we get something that helps us when it 's somewhat similar , and doesn't hurt us too much when it when it 's quite different , that 's maybe not so bad . professor d: So the question is , if you took the same combination , and you tried it out on , on say digits , phd a: On TI - digits ? OK . , then does that , eh you know maybe with similar noise conditions and so forth , does it does it then look much better ? phd a: professor d: And so what is the range over these different kinds of of tests ? So , an anyway . phd b: And , with this type of configuration which I do on experiment using the new neural net with name broad klatt s twenty - seven , d I have found more or less the same result . phd a: So , it 's slightly better , phd b: Little bit better ? phd a: yeah . professor d: And and you know again maybe if you use the , delta there , you would bring it up to where it was , you know at least about the same for a difficult case . phd a: It 's either less information from the neural network if we use only the silence output . And then w with the first configuration , I f I am found that work , doesn't work professor d: Yeah . Because I for the del Engli - PLP delta and delta - delta , here I have eighty - five point three accuracy , and with the second configuration I have eighty - seven point one . professor d: by the way , there is a another , suggestion that would apply , to the second configuration , which , was made , by , Hari . And that was that , if you have feed two streams into HTK , and you , change the , variances if you scale the variances associated with , these streams , you can effectively scale the streams . Right ? So , you know , without changing the scripts for HTK , which is the rule here , you can still change the variances phd a: professor d: And , so , if you do that , for instance it may be the case that , the MLP should not be considered as strongly , for instance . professor d: And , so this is just setting them to be , excuse me , of equal equal weight . professor d: Right ? You know , I I 'm sorry to say that gives more experiments if we wanted to look at that , but but , you know on the other hand it 's just experiments at the level of the HTK recognition . Yeah , you have to change the No , you can just do it in as once you 've done the training grad c: And then you can vary it . professor d: Yeah , the training is just coming up with the variances so I guess you could you could just scale them all . But Is it i th the HTK models are diagonal covariances , so I d Is it professor d: That 's , exactly the point , I think , that if you change , change what they are phd a: . professor d: It 's diagonal covariance matrices , but you say what those variances are . professor d: So , that you know , it 's diagonal , but the diagonal means th that then you 're gonna it 's gonna it 's gonna internally multiply it and and , i it im implicitly exponentiated to get probabilities , and so it 's it 's gonna it 's it 's going to affect the range of things if you change the change the variances of some of the features . phd b: do ? professor d: So , i it 's precisely given that model you can very simply affect , the s the strength that you apply the features . So it could just be that h treating them equally , tea treating two streams equally is just just not the right thing to do . Of course it 's potentially opening a can of worms because , you know , maybe it should be a different number for for each kind of test set , or something , phd a: professor d: So I guess the other thing is to take you know if one were to take , you know , a couple of the most successful of these , phd a: Yeah , and test across everything . phd a: So , the next point , yeah , we 've had some discussion with Steve and Shawn , about their , articulatory stuff , . phd a: discussion with Hynek , Sunil and Pratibha for trying to plug in their our our networks with their within their block diagram , where to plug in the the network , after the the feature , before as a as a plugin or as a anoth another path , discussion about multi - band and TRAPS , actually Hynek would like to see , perhaps if you remember the block diagram there is , temporal LDA followed b by a spectral LDA for each critical band . And he would like to replace these by a network which would , make the system look like a TRAP . Basically , this is a TRAP system kind of TRAP system , but where the neural network are replaced by LDA . , yeah , and about multi - band , I started multi - band MLP trainings , mmh Actually , I w I w hhh prefer to do exactly what I did when I was in Belgium . So I take exactly the same configurations , seven bands with nine frames of context , and we just train on TIMIT , and on the large database , so , with SPINE and everything . So , this would would be something between TRAPS and multi - band because we still have quite large bands , and but with a lot of context also . So Yeah , we still have to work on Finnish , basically , to make a decision on which MLP can be the best across the different languages . , well , the next part of the document is , well , basically , a kind of summary of what everything that has been done . We have seventy - nine M L Ps trained on one , two , three , four , three , four , five , six , seven ten on ten different databases . phd a: the number of frames is bad also , so we have one million and a half for some , three million for other , and six million for the last one . , yeah ! As we mentioned , TIMIT is the only that 's hand - labeled , and perhaps this is what makes the difference . First , with respect to the on - line normalization , there are that use bad on - line normalization , and other good on - line normalization . With respect to the features , with respect to the use of delta or no , with respect to the hidden layer size and to the targets . s What 's this ? We only have two hundred eighty six different tests And no not two thousand . phd b: I say this morning that @ @ thought it was the professor d: Alright , now I 'm just slightly impressed , OK . but when the M - MLP is trained on the is not trained on the target task , it increased the error rate compared to using straight features . Except if the features are bad , actually except if the features are not correctly on - line normalized . In this case the tandem is still better even if it 's trained on not on the target digits . phd a: so the fourth point is , yeah , the TIMIT plus noise seems to be the training set that gives better the best network . professor d: So , on the MSG problem , I think that in in the , in the short time solution , that is , trying to figure out what we can proceed forward with to make the greatest progress , phd a: professor d: much as I said with JRASTA , even though I really like JRASTA and I really like MSG , phd a: professor d: I think it 's kind of in category that it 's , it it may be complicated . professor d: And it might be if someone 's interested in it , certainly encourage anybody to look into it in the longer term , once we get out of this particular rush for results . professor d: But in the short term , unless you have some some s strong idea of what 's wrong , phd a: I don't know at all but I 've perhaps I have the feeling that it 's something that 's quite quite simple or just like nnn , no high - pass filter professor d: Yeah , probably . professor d: There 's supposed to well MSG is supposed to have a an on - line normalization though , right ? phd a: It 's There is , yeah , an AGC - kind of AGC . professor d: Yeah , but also there 's an on - line norm besides the AGC , there 's an on - line normalization that 's supposed to be , yeah , phd a: Mmm . professor d: In fac in fact the on - line normalization that we 're using came from the MSG design , phd a: . Are your results are still with the bad the bad phd b: Maybe , may No ? With the better phd a: With the O - OLN - two ? phd b: No ? phd a: Ah yeah , you have you have OLN - two , phd b: Oh ! Yeah , yeah , yeah ! With " two " , with " on - line - two " . professor d: " Two " is good ? phd a: And professor d: No , " two " is bad . It 's probably something simple , i if if someone , you know , wants to play with it for a little bit . professor d: but but my my guess would be that it 's something that is a simple thing that could take a while to find . That 's that what we were concerned about is that if it 's not on the target task If it 's on the target task then it it it helps to have the MLP transforming it . professor d: If it if it 's not on the target task , then , depending on how different it is , you can get , a reduction in performance . professor d: And the question is now how to how to get one and not the other ? Or how to how to ameliorate the the problems . professor d: because it it certainly does is nice to have in there , when it when there is something like the training data . So , the the reason Yeah , the reason is that the perhaps the target the the task dependency the language dependency , and the noise dependency professor d: So that 's what you say th there . phd a: Well , the e e But this is still not clear because , I I I don't think we have enough result to talk about the the language dependency . Well , the TIMIT network is still the best but there is also an the other difference , the fact that it 's it 's hand - labeled . , I d I don't think we want to mess with the microphones but it 's Just , have a seat . s Summary of the first , forty - five minutes is that some stuff work and works , and some stuff doesn't OK , phd a: We still have this One of these perhaps ? phd b: Yeah . professor d: Yeah , I guess we can do a little better than that but I think if you if you start off with the other one , actually , that sort of has it in words and then th that has it the associated results . So you 're saying that , although from what we see , yes there 's what you would expect in terms of a language dependency and a noise dependency . That is , when the neural net is trained on one of those and tested on something different , we don't do as well as in the target thing . But you 're saying that , it is Although that general thing is observable so far , there 's something you 're not completely convinced about . What what do you mean ? phd a: mmm , that the the fact that s Well , for for TI - digits the TIMIT net is the best , which is the English net . But you have two two effects , the effect of changing language and the effect of training on something that 's Viterbi - aligned instead of hand hand - labeled . professor d: Do you think the alignments are bad ? , have you looked at the alignments at all ? What the Viterbi alignment 's doing ? phd a: Mmm . Because , that is just looking but , It 's not clear to me you necessarily would do so badly from a Viterbi alignment . But , perhaps it 's not really the the alignment that 's bad but the just the ph phoneme string that 's used for the alignment professor d: Aha ! phd a: Mmm . professor d: The pronunciation models and so forth phd a: for We It 's single pronunciation , professor d: Aha . phd a: so we asked people to listen to the the sentence and we gave the phoneme string and they kind of correct them . , the third The third issue is the noise dependency perhaps but , well , this is not clear yet because all our nets are trained on the same noises and professor d: I thought some of the nets were trained with SPINE and so forth . professor d: OK , yeah , just don't just need more more results there with that @ @ . , with respect to the network size , there 's one experiment that 's still running and we should have the result today , comparing network with five hundred and one thousand units . We can , we can tell which training set gives the best result , but we don't know exactly why . professor d: " Multi - multi - English " just means " TIMIT " , phd a: Yeah . professor d: It 's sort of , yes it 's mul it 's multi - - purpose . So Yeah , the training targets actually , the two of the main issues perhaps are still the language dependency and the noise dependency . And perhaps to try to reduce the language dependency , we should focus on finding some other kind of training targets . For moment you use we use phonetic targets but we could also use articulatory targets , soft targets , and perhaps even , use networks that doesn't do classification but just regression so , train to have neural networks that , professor d: phd a: does a regression and well , basically com com compute features and noit not , nnn , features without noise . phd a: professor d: Yeah , that seems like a good thing to do , probably , not again a short - term sort of thing . professor d: one of the things about that is that it 's e u the ri I guess the major risk you have there of being is being dependent on very dependent on the kind of noise and and so forth . phd a: So , this is w w i wa wa this is one thing , this this could be could help could help perhaps to reduce language dependency and for the noise part we could combine this with other approaches , like , well , the Kleinschmidt approach . I think Kleinschmidt was using more than fifty different noises to train his network , phd b: Yeah . phd a: and So this is one approach and the other is multi - band , that I think is more robust to the noisy changes . phd a: So perhaps , I think something like multi - band trained on a lot of noises with , features - based targets could could could help . professor d: Yeah , if you i i It 's interesting thought maybe if you just trained up w yeah , one one fantasy would be you have something like articulatory targets and you have some reasonable database , but then which is copied over many times with a range of different noises , phd a: professor d: And If Cuz what you 're trying to do is come up with a a core , reasonable feature set which is then gonna be used , by the the system . The future work is , well , try to connect to the to make to plug in the system to the OGI system . professor d: And I guess , you know , the the the real open question , e u there 's lots of open questions , but one of the core quote " open questions " for that is , if we take the you know , the best ones here , maybe not just the best one , but the best few or something You want the most promising group from these other experiments . , how well do they do over a range of these different tests , not just the Italian ? phd a: Mmm , professor d: . professor d: y Right ? And then then see , again , how We know that there 's a mis there 's a a a loss in performance when the neural net is trained on conditions that are different than than , we 're gonna test on , but well , if you look over a range of these different tests , how well do these different ways of combining the straight features with the MLP features , stand up over that range ? phd b: And , take let 's say , just take multi - English cause that works pretty well for the training . How does that How does that compare between the phd a: So all the all the test sets you mean , yeah . professor d: All the different test sets , phd a: And professor d: and for and for the couple different ways that you have of of of combining them . And perhaps doing this for cha changing the variance of the streams and so on getting different scaling phd b: Yeah , so thi this sh would be more working on the MLP as an additional path instead of an insert to the to their diagram . Perhaps the insert idea is kind of strange because nnn , they they make LDA and then we will again add a network does discriminate anal nnn , that discriminates , professor d: Yeah . It 's a little strange phd a: or ? Mmm ? professor d: but on the other hand they did it before . And because also perhaps we know that the when we have very good features the MLP doesn't help . , we we wanna get their path running here , right ? If so , we can add this other stuff . professor d: as an additional path right ? phd a: Yeah , the the way we want to do professor d: Cuz they 're doing LDA RASTA . phd a: The d What ? professor d: They 're doing LDA RASTA , phd a: Yeah , the way we want to do it perhaps is to just to get the VAD labels and the final features . professor d: yeah ? phd a: So they will send us the Well , provide us with the feature files , professor d: I see . phd a: and with VAD , binary labels so that we can , get our MLP features and filter them with the VAD and then combine them with their f feature stream . First thing of course we 'd wanna do there is to make sure that when we get those labels of final features is that we get the same results as them . You mean Oh , yeah ! Just re re retraining r retraining the HTK ? professor d: Yeah just th w i i Just to make sure that we have we understand properly what things are , our very first thing to do is to is to double check that we get the exact same results as them on HTK . But , just for the testing , jus just make sure that we get the same results so we can duplicate it before we add in another phd a: Mmm . Yeah , so fff , LogRASTA , I don't know if we want to We can try networks with LogRASTA filtered features . But professor d: Oh ! You know , the other thing is when you say comb I 'm I 'm sorry , I 'm interrupting . that u , when you 're talking about combining multiple features , Suppose we said , " OK , we 've got these different features and so forth , but PLP seems pretty good . We have different languages , we have different different noises , If we have some drastically different conditions and we just train up different M L Ps with them . What what What Mike found , for the reverberation case at least , who knows if it 'll work for these other ones . That is , that yes , if you knew what the reverberation condition was gonna be and you trained for that , then you got the best results . But if you had , say , a heavily - reverberation ca heavy - reverberation case and a no - reverberation case , and then you fed the thing , something that was a modest amount of reverberation then you 'd get some result in between the two . So you you think it 's perhaps better to have several M L Yeah but professor d: It works better if what ? phd a: Yea professor d: I see . Well , see , i oc You were doing some something that was So maybe the analogy isn't quite right . Here the problem seems to be is that we don't have a hug a really huge net with a really huge amount of training data . But we have s f for this kind of task , I would think , sort of a modest amount . We have a modest amount of of training data from a couple different conditions , and then in yeah , that and the real situation is that there 's enormous variability that we anticipate in the test set in terms of language , and noise type , and , channel characteristic , sort of all over the map . And so , I 'm just concerned that we don't really have , the data to train up one of the things that we were seeing is that when we added in we still don't have a good explanation for this , but we are seeing that we 're adding in , a fe few different databases and the performance is getting worse and , when we just take one of those databases that 's a pretty good one , it actually is is is is is better . And that says to me , yes , that , you know , there might be some problems with the pronunciation models that some of the databases we 're adding in or something like that . But one way or another we don't have , seemingly , the ability to represent , in the neural net of the size that we have , all of the variability that we 're gonna be covering . So that I 'm I 'm I 'm hoping that , this is another take on the efficiency argument you 're making , which is I 'm hoping that with moderate size neural nets , that if we if they look at more constrained conditions they they 'll have enough parameters to really represent them . i i e The I think it 's true that the OGI folk found that using LDA RASTA , which is a kind of LogRASTA , it 's just that they have the it 's done in the log domain , as I recall , and it 's it it 's just that they d it 's trained up , right ? That that benefitted from on - line normalization . So will it be in our case , where we 're using the neural net ? they they were not not using the neural net . We 've been sort of ignoring that , haven't we ? phd a: Yeah , so I don't know . professor d: But phd a: But we have to address the problem of CPU and memory we professor d: Yeah , but I li Well , I think My impression You you folks have been looking at this more than me . But my impression was that , there was a a a a strict constraint on the delay , phd b: Yeah . professor d: but beyond that it was kind of that using less memory was better , and using less CPU was better . We have to get some reference point to where we Well , what 's a reasonable number ? Perhaps be because if it 's if it 's too large or large or @ @ professor d: well I don't think we 're completely off the wall . I think that if we if we have , the ultimate fall back that we could do If we find we may find that we we 're not really gonna worry about the M L You know , if the MLP ultimately , after all is said and done , doesn't really help then we won't have it in . professor d: If the MLP does , we find , help us enough in some conditions , we might even have more than one MLP . professor d: And it 's We do the other manipulations that we 're doing before that . , what what are they What are they gonna be working Do we know what they 're gonna be working on while we take their features , phd a: They 're They 're starting to wor work on some kind of multi - band . Sunil , what was he doing , do you remember ? phd b: Sunil ? phd a: Yeah . He was doing something new or ? phd b: I I don't re I didn't remember . phd a: I think they were also mainly , well , working a little bit of new things , like networks and multi - band , but mainly trying to tune their their system as it is now to just trying to get the best from this this architecture . So I guess the way it would work is that you 'd get There 'd be some point where you say , " OK , this is their version - one " or whatever , and we get these VAD labels and features and so forth for all these test sets from them , phd a: We have a certain level we try to improve it with this other path and then , when it gets to be , January some point , we say , " OK we we have shown that we can improve this , in this way . So now what 's your newest version ? " And then maybe they 'll have something that 's better and then we we 'd combine it . I I I used to work with folks who were trying to improve a good , system with with a neural net system and , it was a common problem that you 'd Oh , and this Actually , this is true not just for neural nets but just for in general if people were working with , rescoring , N - best lists or lattices that come came from , a mainstream recognizer . , You get something from the the other site at one point and you work really hard on making it better with rescoring . So by the time you have , improved their score , they have also improved their score phd a: Mmm . professor d: So , I guess at some point we 'll have to phd a: So it 's professor d: I I don't know . I think we 're we 're integrated a little more tightly than happens in a lot of those cases . I think at the moment they they say that they have a better thing we can we e e phd a: Mmm . professor d: What takes all the time here is that th we 're trying so many things , presumably , in a in a day we could turn around , taking a new set of things from them and and rescoring it , phd a: Mmm . I think that the most wide open thing is the issues about the , you know , different trainings . So we we can for we c we can forget combining multiple features and MLG perhaps , professor d: That 's sort of wide open . phd a: or focus more on the targets and on the training data and ? professor d: Yeah , I think for right now , I th I I really liked MSG . And I think that , you know , one of the things I liked about it is has such different temporal properties . And , I think that there is ultimately a really good , potential for , you know , bringing in things with different temporal properties . , but , we only have limited time and there 's a lot of other things we have to look at . professor d: And it seems like much more core questions are issues about the training set and the training targets , and fitting in what we 're doing with what they 're doing , and , you know , with limited time . And then , you know , once we , having gone through this process and trying many different things , I would imagine that certain things , come up that you are curious about , that you 'd not getting to and so when the dust settles from the evaluation , I think that would time to go back and take whatever intrigued you most , you know , got you most interested and and and work with it , you know , for the next round . , as you can tell from these numbers , nothing that any of us is gonna do is actually gonna completely solve the problem . professor d: Well I figured that , but That what what what were you involved in in this primarily ? grad c: helping out , preparing Well , they 've been kind of running all the experiments and stuff and I 've been , w doing some work on the on the preparing all all the data for them to to , train and to test on . Right now , I 'm I 'm focusing mainly on this final project I 'm working on in Jordan 's class . What 's what 's that ? grad c: I 'm trying to So there was a paper in ICSLP about this this multi - band , belief - net structure . grad c: basically it was two H M Ms with with a with a dependency arrow between the two H M professor d: - huh . grad c: And so I wanna try try coupling them instead of t having an arrow that that flows from one sub - band to another sub - band . And , I 'm just gonna see if if that that better models , asynchrony in any way or Yeah . OK , so speaking of which , if we don't have anything else that we need You happy with where we are ? phd a: Mmm . professor d: Know know wher know where we 're going ? phd a: I think so , yeah . grad e: Al - actually I should mention So if , about the Linux machine " Swede . grad e: And Dan Ellis I believe knows something about using that machine so phd a: Mmm . grad e: If people are interested in in getting jobs running on that maybe I could help with that . phd a: Yeah , but I don't know if we really need now a lot of machines . professor d: Right ? there 's there 's some different things that we 're trying to get at now . Yeah , as far as you can tell , you 're actually OK on C - on CPU , for training and so on ? Yeah . Well , more is always better , but mmm , I don't think we have to train a lot of networks , now that we know We just select what works fine professor d: OK . to work professor d: And we 're OK on And we 're OK on disk ? phd a: and It 's OK , yeah . Alright , so , since , we didn't ha get a channel on for you , you don't have to read any digits but the rest of us will . We didn't I think I won't touch anything cuz I 'm afraid of making the driver crash which it seems to do , pretty easily . OK , so we 'll I 'll start off the connect the phd a: My battery is low <doc-sep>professor a: We 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: Well , I don't think phd f: No , that that wasn't recorded . phd f: I guess I have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd f: I was just noticing a big s professor d: So are we recording now ? Is this phd e: Yeah . professor d: So , what were we gonna talk about again ? So we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . Do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: I think that phd e: It 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but I forgot to print any out . Besides with this big a group , phd b: You can write them on the board , if you want . I it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: Mari ? postdoc h: What professor a: What ? professor d: It 's not that long . professor d: w u phd e: So that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: It 's kind of professor d: Oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . So what we had was that we were gonna talk about data collection , and , you you put up there data format , professor a: . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: So , I think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? Like grad g: especially for querying . postdoc h: Well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , i , if he I , if he has s I I don't remember , Mister Lan - Doctor Landry ? grad g: Landay . postdoc h: La - Landay ? So he has , these , tsk note - taking things , professor a: postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you wouldn't have to solicit . professor a: Well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . So action item or , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . grad g: But if we had the CrossPads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: And so , you know phd f: the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . I don't think there 'd be so many that you couldn't have someone clean it up professor a: So grad g: pretty easily . We also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . So , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . professor d: I just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gonna do at the front where we each said who we were . professor a: But anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: No , not a No , I just My mind went elsewhere . So , yeah , I 'm Morgan , and where am I ? I 'm on channel three . postdoc h: Should we have used pseudo - names ? Should we do it a second time with pseudo No . professor d: I 'm Rocky Raccoon on channel phd e: Let me , turn that off . grad g: And , do you want to do the P D As and the P Z phd e: Oh . phd e: PDM - right , PZA - right PDA - right , PDA - left . grad g: Yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the Jimlets will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . postdoc h: I have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say " Jimlet " and the person listening won't know what that is , sh shou How how do we get Is that important information ? You know , the Jimlet , the box that contains the professor d: Well , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . There 's gonna be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common that we will not know . professor d: we we were originally gonna do this with VLSI design , and and and the reason we didn't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . Should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? , do we have s people write summaries ? Everybody or one person ? And then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? Is that phd f: There 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: Right . phd f: that was One thing I was thinking about was is that Dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . phd f: But there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not If you don't have an interactive system , it 's gonna be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor d: There 's there 's another problem grad g: And professor d: which is , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , recording meetings about Meeting Recorder . And , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , reduces enormously . And if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , they were fine with it . But if we 'd said , " OK , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , the summar " grad g: Well , I asked them to and none of them did . grad g: So , I I asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: grad g: So I didn't track them down and say " please do th do it now " . professor d: I I 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: Right . professor d: as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gonna use this thing . grad g: I just don't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say " that 's important , that might be a query " . Well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , there are certain key words like , you know , " action item " and things like that , which could be used in , t to some degree finding the structure . phd e: Although professor a: W postdoc h: And and I also , was thinking , with reference to the n , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . And the fir third thing I wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , I think they should be recorded instead of written because I think that , it would take so long for people to write that I think you wouldn't get as good a summary . professor a: How about this idea ? That normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . professor a: And So why don't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: Yeah . grad g: that gives you a summary but it doesn't really How do you generate queries from that ? phd e: Well . But , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . phd b: Actually And so grad g: James and I were talking about this during one of the breaks . And the problem with that is , I 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what I 'm gonna do for my thesis . And so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gonna be me . professor d: Well , I think that we , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: Well professor d: and send them off to IBM and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: Yep . professor d: And then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . So , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , and each person has a note pad . Then you c you can just have a fff plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . But I bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . phd b: you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . phd b: It may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . phd b: And that wouldn't take any extra postdoc h: That 's a nice idea . phd b: Or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: It professor c: It 's professor d: That 's a good idea but that doesn't Maybe I 'm missing something , but that doesn't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: Well , what it does phd b: Well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . phd b: And grad g: y professor a: I I think it 's an interesting thing . I don't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wanna i say " what were the hot - points of the meeting ? " phd b: Yeah . professor d: That that 's what , is that I think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which I thought we were , of of of , " how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gonna want to ask of such a system ? " , knowing what 's important doesn't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd e: Well , see , there are th professor a: I think you could say they 're gonna ask about , when , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . phd b: At least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: Maybe . grad g: i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . grad g: And so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: Right . grad g: but phd b: We don't even know what , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: professor d: Yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: . professor d: because , you know , th what what what James is gonna be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i We we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . So he 's just sort of going " where where do I where do I start ? " professor a: w Well , th you could do I think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: OK . One , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor a: So " action item " is gonna come up whether it 's a VLSI meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . So words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . professor a: the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying " here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? " grad g: Yeah , I think that 's difficult because then they 're not gonna ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: Well grad g: But , I think it would give professor a: That 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: So that that is another use of Meeting Recorder that we haven't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . But , I guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . phd e: But th there is this , There is this class of queries , which are the things that you didn't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think " oh , hang on , didn't we talk about that ? " And it 's something that didn't appear in the summary but you professor a: phd e: And that 's kind of what this kind of , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . phd e: Cuz it 's the things that you wouldn't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . So , And th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd e: But , it 's difficult to sort of say " and if I was gonna ask four questions about this , what would they be ? " Those aren't the kind of things that come up . postdoc h: I also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y So if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , " we discussed types of na data collection " . If you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you don't have a direct route to that . postdoc h: I think that grad g: That 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . I think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: No , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: But they phd b: And that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . , this isn't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: But if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: Their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and I don't think anyone is still working on it . grad g: And so the question is " is there such a person ? " And I think right now , the answer is " no " . professor a: Well professor d: I 've b been thinking grad g: We 'll just have to see . professor d: I 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the , th this , e I think that the now I 'm thinking that the summary a summary , is actually a reasonable , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . It 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . So I was I was just thinking about , suppose we wanted to get w We have this collection of meeting . So now we have five hours of meetings and , you ask me , " Morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? " , I wouldn't have any idea what kind of questions I want to ask . So in fact if I looked at summary of it , I 'd go " oh , yeah , I was in that meeting , I remember that , what was the part that " And and th I think that might then help me to think of things even things that aren't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . One , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: professor a: phd b: So how does the summary get generated ? professor a: Well , i i ? phd b: I 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: By hand . phd b: but I wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: Or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: What I I think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: So professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that I attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ASCII and not somebody you don't have to go through handwriting recognition . postdoc h: I I I think that , there 's we 're using " summary " in two different ways . postdoc h: And what I originally thought was , if you asked someone " what was the meeting about ? " phd b: OK . postdoc h: And then they would say " well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about " And then you 'd have , like I e My thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: postdoc h: Whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , I think you would get , with mult See , I I also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . And , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: professor d: A postdoc h: So , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: OK . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: Adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: but but , my impression was that , pretty much , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w , with a laptop grad g: Never . Does anyone ? phd b: Dan ? professor d: I grad g: Dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: Yeah . Most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: That 's true are four or five people . professor d: and you 're not you don't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: So , I think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: The IRAM meeting , they they take notes every professor d: Do they ? grad g: There 's a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd b: I don't know how , but for instance , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . phd e: We sh we should grad g: I agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: I agree . phd e: f u I think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: Yeah , different phd b: y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . grad g: But don't you think that 's Don't you think that But postdoc h: I agree . , I I just think , I think that right now we don't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . phd e: Not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd e: Just just in terms of phd b: We should just Like archiving it or storing it . postdoc h: It 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: Because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say " OK , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: So phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and " and just postdoc h: Yes . professor d: Li postdoc h: Like you said , three snapshots professor d: L L L postdoc h: and professor d: Liz , you postdoc h: Just to archive . professor d: u , Liz , you sa you sat in on the , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: Actually professor d: on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , that workshop we were at that , Mark Liberman was was having . They they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . But I 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that DARPA 's interested in . And there 's also I think a personal interest on the part of Mark Liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: phd b: And professor d: I think you , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . professor d: And if the database exists and includes some visual information that doesn't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . professor d: So , grad g: But that it 's gonna be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . So we 're gonna So we 're gonna do what we 're gonna do , whatever 's reasonable for us . phd b: I think even doing something very crude professor d: But having phd b: Like I know with ATIS , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . phd b: And later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . So if you can find some really , you know , low , perplexity , grad g: Low fidelity . And if it 's simple as , as simple as just the digital phd b: Otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: Well , minimally , what what Dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: Yeah . professor d: so , grad g: Well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: Yeah . grad g: But phd b: Also CMU has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , Alex Waibel 's group . And they have said , I talked to the student who had done this , that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . So I think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we don't collect it at all . The problem with it is you 'll have more people who don't want to be filmed than who don't want to be recorded . grad g: So that there 's going to be another group of people who are gonna say " I won't participate " . phd b: Or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . phd b: That would be an interes Bu postdoc h: Well professor d: Great idea . But I think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: Yeah . postdoc h: sp spatial organization And you could anonymize the faces for that matter . You know , this is grad g: But , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: We can talk about the grad g: To set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: It 's just one snapshot . phd b: No , it wa n not , professor a: No , no , no , no . Maybe we don't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: Did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: I think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: I think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . Well , I think for , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: I 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that don't have that , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , I think . postdoc h: Th The thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then I think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . And phd b: I 'm just The community If LDC collects this data u , and L - if Mark Liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . phd b: And so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . The only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: I think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . professor d: As you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , and and will include all that . professor d: professor a: e professor d: I I I 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . In other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . And so I I I think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . But I I am int I do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , subsets of that . Like for a meeting like this , at least , take a Polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: Of the board . phd b: Or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: That 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . phd b: otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we weren't recording this , this this would get lost . , I just think that the grad g: The point is that we 're not saving it anyway . postdoc h: Well professor a: What do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? I 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . That would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , is in the record . postdoc h: Well professor a: Well , that 's why that 's why I 'm saying that I think the note - taking would be I think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have , we , we don't need to require it . professor a: so so we won't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . professor d: So So , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , so I guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? OK . professor d: So so the question that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . professor d: And I guess the CrossPads was certainly one idea , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . Right ? And then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gonna do anything about that . professor a: So , if I 'm collecting data then there is this question of do I use CrossPads ? professor d: Yeah . professor a: So , I think that if we really seriously have me collect data and I can't use CrossPads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , unless you think that the CrossPads are gonna n I 'm not I 'm not sure what they 're gonna do . But but having a small percentage of the data with it , I 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . professor d: I guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the UI stuff . professor d: So it 's sort of Landay supplying it so that Landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor d: So it it Right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: Nothing . professor d: and so even if we didn't get it done from UW , it seems like that would could still You shou professor a: OK . phd b: I think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . grad g: And and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . So if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . I think it it it will again depend on Landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . grad g: but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably won't do it . professor d: I guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . That if if people have something in front of them phd b: I 'd be sort of cool . So , I j I think we should just say this is not we don't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: Yeah . What I was gonna say is that I don't want to ask people to do something they wouldn't normally do in a meeting . professor d: So who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: Yeah , I 'm thinking that grad g: People in the meeting . grad g: You know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: - huh . phd e: People with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . phd b: Well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: How fascinating . phd b: and They have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: And see score them ? phd e: That 's right . phd b: and wasn't phd e: If we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gonna get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . professor a: But but again , like the CrossPads , I don't think I would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: Ru grad g: I d yeah , I don't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because I think I know when I see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , I 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: Maybe e Is email easier ? postdoc h: Well , I think if grad g: I when you first said do do it , spoken , what I was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: postdoc h: Yeah , I 'd just try Well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . But , I don't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor a: But , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: Well , I think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: I would s Yeah . professor d: that that y that you can't certainly can't require it or people aren't gonna want to do this . postdoc h: And I 'm also wondering , couldn't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , recognized by a particular individual ? If you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be , phd e: Yeah . postdoc h: Under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: Right . postdoc h: just phd f: So I have a question about queries , grad g: God , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , grad g: Can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: You turn phd f: grad g: If can we turn that just that that let professor d: The fl the fluorescent light is flickering . grad g: Yeah , there 's a phd b: Oh , it is it is like OK . professor a: That and y Too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: Too much caffeine . phd f: the question I had about queries was , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? Are are we gonna try and o grad g: We we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: Yeah . phd f: so , the question I had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? , I think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: Mmm . phd f: n phd b: Shouldn't Landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: Yeah . phd b: They 're the expert phd e: Mari ? professor a: Yeah ? phd e: Someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . Is someone picking you up ? professor a: what 's our schedule ? professor d: Well , you still wanted to talk with Liz . professor a: Let 's see , you and I need dis , no , we did the Liz talk . professor a: We need to finish this discussion , and you and I need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . So , grad g: And what ? professor a: professor d: I 'm at your disposal . professor a: what what 's the plan for this discussion ? We should professor d: I think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: At least . professor a: So , I think phd b: It 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: Well , we still haven't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor d: And professor a: e e why don't you say five - thirty ? I don't phd e: OK , five - thirty . grad g: Well , in answer to " is it Landay 's problem ? " , he doesn't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . So I don't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: Yeah , well there 's gonna be these student projects that can do some things but it can't be , yeah , very deep . u I I actually think that that , again , just as a bootstrap , if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , could at least give give Landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . , ye Right ? If he doesn't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , phd b: But the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . phd f: Well , I 'm not sure I 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . phd f: Right ? Of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: How to do this from the summary . phd b: So what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gonna be at the same time as the meeting . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper Yeah . phd b: You postdoc h: I 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be " what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? " Becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: That 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor a: But actually I would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: Because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . postdoc h: So you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . But with the " what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? " , so the fact that , I know that Transcriber uses Snack is something that I thought was interesting phd b: Going to see the kids . So , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that wouldn't even occur as major headings professor a: professor c: Are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: As many are willing to do it . Cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then Yeah . phd e: So grad g: Well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done , I we didn't take minutes and we don't have summaries . professor a: But actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: Mmm . postdoc h: And that I think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor d: Boy , I I don't know how we get at this postdoc h: That would be interesting . professor c: Yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: Or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say " yeah , me too , I agree . professor c: So phd e: On the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: Well phd e: They might say " oh , I was gonna say that one but now I have to think of something else " . grad g: Well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . We 'll , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people didn't say . , It seemed The kind of , interest that I had in this thing initially was , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: So it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: Right . professor d: in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . So it 's it 's that you 're trying to find You 're you 've now You weren't interested Say I I said " well , I wasn't that much interested in dialogue , I 'm more of an acoustics person " . professor d: But but thr three months from now if for some reason I get really interested in dialogue , and I 'm " well what is what was that part that that that , Mari was saying ? " grad g: Yeah , like Jim Bass says " add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf " professor a: professor d: Yeah . professor d: And then I 'm trying to fi , that 's that 's when I look in general when I look things up most , is when it 's something that didn't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some new reason I 'm I 'm I 'm interested in in in the old stuff . professor a: Well , I That 's hard to generate professor d: So , I don't I don't know . phd f: Do we professor a: and and I think that 's half of what i I would use it for . But I also a lot of times , make you know , think to myself " this is interesting , professor d: professor a: So , things that I think are interesting , I would be , wanting to do a query about . And also , I like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , I 'd kind of want to know about it and then I 'd want to follow up on it . That that might get at some of what I was I was concerned about , being interested in something later that w , I didn't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if I thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if I didn't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: But But what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . grad g: Yeah , I I think you can't get at all of it , professor d: Yeah . phd f: The question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: But postdoc h: Well , and and one thing , we we 're saying " important " and we 're saying " interesting " . But I I I guess that 's the question , really , is that , postdoc h: professor d: W phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what Morgan wants to do later ? professor d: Well , irreversible . phd f: That 's that 's professor d: I I , I guess what I what I I keep coming back to in my own mind is that , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: Yeah . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , and ask the questions that they actually want to know . If you know , if , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then I think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . postdoc h: I will say that that I I chose " interesting " because I think it includes also " important " in some cases . postdoc h: Well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . You know , I think inter " interesting " is is non - threatening in professor a: OK - OK . professor a: In the interest of , grad g: Importance ? postdoc h: Yeah . professor a: No , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that I wrote down as being important , that we at least decided on . CrossPads we were going to try , if Landay can get the , get them to to you guys , and see if they 're interesting . professor a: getting just , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . So rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . " And then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . professor a: OK ? Does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? That well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: grad g: Yeah , that 's like n I think that 's gonna predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: And and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . phd e: there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . phd e: And that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . grad g: Give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: Yeah , really . So professor d: Well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: Yeah . , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . And it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: Well , we 're gonna phd b: So you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: . phd b: In fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . phd b: It But it may well grad g: But professor d: Because , b because it depends on , what our goal is . grad g: Really ? professor d: If our goal is Wizard of Oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . professor d: And if it 's if if it 's something that we don't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: Yeah . grad g: Yeah , I was thinking about Wizard of Oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: Well just imagine if professor d: But but just phd e: Get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely can't answer at the moment , professor d: Yeah . w Just " what would you like to know ? " phd e: but grad g: Yep . postdoc h: I I was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like " action item " , professor a: OK . postdoc h: Yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: Well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . phd b: So , in general , that could be something you could say , right ? I 'm supposed to do this . Well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , " other than your action item " , you know , whatever . phd e: Well postdoc h: But but the action item would be a way to get , maybe an additional query . Well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: Well , we 're piloting . professor a: or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: We we had , phd e: Yeah . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but I guess Did y did you get enough milestone , from the description things ? professor a: I got Yeah . In fact , why don't you hand me those transparencies so that I remember to take them . professor d: And , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . What I have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , requirements . professor a: people are supposed to send me U R for their for web pages , to c and I 'll put together an overall cover . We professor a: ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: And and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - July . And so , professor a: How about if I just c , Right now all I want I personally only want text data . I think the only thing Jeff would do anything with right now But I 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago I had in Turkey . professor d: Wh postdoc h: You could email to both of us , just , if you wanted to . postdoc h: I don't think either of us would mind recei professor a: OK . postdoc h: but but in any case I 'd be happy to send you the professor a: And your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: Edwards at ICSI . professor a: And then professor d: In in our phone call , before , we we , It turns out the way we 're gonna send the data is by , And , and then what they 're gonna do is take the CD - ROM and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , that will grad g: Oh , is this IBM ? professor d: Yeah . postdoc h: Yeah , using foot pedals professor d: Yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: so do they How are they gonna do the multi - channel ? professor d: See , that 's a good question . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: Mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that don't work out well . And that 'll go back to IBM and they 'll they 'll , they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that don't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . professor d: We 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: So we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . phd b: But you also should probably give them the mixed You know , equal sound - level professor d: Yeah . professor d: It 's also won't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: But w phd b: I phd f: It 's not professor a: Right . phd b: You should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . Related to to the conversation with Picheny , I need to email him , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . I I m emailed them the Transcriber URL , the on - line , data that Adam set up , The URL so they can click on an utterance and hear it . And I was gonna m email them the which I haven't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: Good . grad g: And then p possibly postdoc h: I C - I CC ' ed Morgan . grad g: Not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . We were gonna grad g: Well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . professor a: That 's postdoc h: Well , professor a: W My my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: Well , yeah . So , what n important thing professor a: but Cuz I 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: Well , it c phd e: Right . professor d: So a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: Great . phd f: and " professor d: We also had the , that we were s , that you were gonna get us the eight - hundred number professor a: Oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gonna we 're gonna call up your Communicator thing and and we 're gonna be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , users . professor c: Now , something that I mentioned earlier to Mari and Liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . Cuz we don't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: Yeah . Or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you shouldn't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: Or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: So . e You know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . professor d: My mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: He would never use it . So I have the professor d: We talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at UW . And so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m If that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , major communications between Dan and UW folks phd e: Yeah . , professor a: I 'm I 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of August . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: Mmm . professor a: So , you know , if professor d: But we have it it 's it 's pretty We don't know . , he he s , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: We don't know . professor d: and and so we don't know , professor a: i It 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . , and I will email these notes , I 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody I guess somebody needs to tell Landay that you want the pads . professor d: and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: professor a: Oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . phd e: Yeah , that was , that was What he was saying was this he this thing that , Jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . But it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: But but that 's actually what I wanna do . grad g: Un - unfortunately Landay told me that Jason is not gonna be working on that anymore . He seemed when I asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . If I don't get something grad g: Who ? Landay or Jason ? professor a: Landay . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or I could I could use , I could use your web pages . You 've got all the web pages on the Meeting Recor professor d: Yeah , why search for them ? professor a: Yeah ! professor d: They 're we know where they are . professor d: There 's there 's some , Carnegie Mellon stuff , right ? On on meeting recording , grad g: Yep . professor a: So , there 's there 's ICSI , Xerox , professor d: and phd b: And there 's You should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: And Xerox . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: the " Georgia Tech Classroom Two Thousand " is a good one . J There 's th That 's where I thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: Well , Georgia Tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . I think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all I can think of . postdoc h: Can I ask , one thing ? It relates to data data collection and I and I 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of , so , I s I know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , are lessened . But I wonder if , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , u w we would c , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? So either by rules of participation , or whatever . postdoc h: Now , you know , it 's true , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gonna have as much overlap . phd f: Adam ! postdoc h: But , i i , so we 're gonna have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . But , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: . phd e: turn off professor a: I don't think we should have rules of participation , but I think we should try to get a variety of meetings . That 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at UW , that I probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: OK . Just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: phd b: They 're still gonna overlap , postdoc h: OK , good . phd b: but Mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political Y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: Wasn - but w I think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . postdoc h: Not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . But if if that 's sufficient data I just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which can't be processed . So I 'm just writing here , we 're not gonna try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gonna try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: Time . And I you know , I I know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: Cuz if I recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . Well , I just as as as a contributary eh , so I I know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . They 'll just say , you know you know , " wait till each person is finished before you say something " . professor a: Well , the reason why I didn't want to is be why I personally didn't want to is because I wanted it to be as , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: I just want to be sure we don't that we 're able to process , i u , you know , as much data as we can . Did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with L Liberman ? phd b: professor d: What phd b: And there was a big division , professor d: What what do they phd b: so Liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . phd b: So there 's lots of recordings that They 're not close - talk mike , professor d: Yeah . phd b: but And and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . , and then the CMU folks and I were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . And , I guess we just left it as @ @ that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: Is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: As far as I know , they h have not . grad g: It 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: I 'm not sure . , if people were interested they could talk to them , but I I got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: Cuz I had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: I think you need to talk to Waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd b: But they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . Well , once we send out postdoc h: Yeah , I think professor d: we still haven't sent out the first note saying " hey , this list exists " . But but , once we do that professor a: Is that an action item ? professor d: Yeah . We should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: I think everyone here is on the list . grad g: I I added a few people who didn't who I knew had to be on it even though they didn't tell me . grad g: You are on it , aren't you ? postdoc h: Yeah , I am . So " found data " , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: What they mean is stuff they don't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: It sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: Yeah , OK . It 's things occur without any You know , the pe these people weren't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . Of course it 's not " found " in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . phd b: But what he means is that You know , Mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: That 's interesting . phd e: We should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: Oh . phd b: Rrrh ! grad g: Now , I was already thinking about it , so professor d: Oh ! Good man . phd b: I grad g: So , I really liked the idea of what I thought was interesting was the combination of the CrossPad and the speech . So , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? Can you do special gestures and so on that that have , special meaning to the corpora ? I really liked that . postdoc h: Well , I I just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , I I found this discussion very , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . And and the and I and the fact that it 's sort of , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . So I actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . I just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which I thought was worthwhile . grad g: Did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: Not that I postdoc h: Yeah . , I will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: That 's a good point . phd f: I 'm gonna pass because I can't , of the Jane took my answer . But I will say , I will actually , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . So that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . I think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so I don't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we don't have funding on it , in this project . professor d: Well , being more management lately than than research , I think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . phd e: How are we gonna find that in the data ? grad g: Well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: Oh , yeah . grad g: Yeah , I think phd f: Well , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: How happy were they ? professor d: I 'd probably search for something like that . postdoc h: h Do we need do I need to turn something off here , or I do unplug this , or ? professor d: Now these we turn off

A good VAD was deemed impossible without baseline features, and the model did not benefit from online normalization when spectral subtraction was already in use. Interestingly, the performance of short filters was on par with long filters, and the model showed promise in well-matched cases. Despite mixed results, the shorter latency was seen as a positive indicator. On the other hand, the best results were achieved when applying FFT bins with a Wiener filter and no noise addition, although the results with noise were still close. It was noted that most nets were not as good, except for the multi English. MSG did not provide as much information as expected, and even without normalization, the neural network still performed at 90%. In terms of data collection, PhD B advocated for diverse data and suggested focusing on natural meetings while incorporating other data as well.

What were the opinions of PhD A, PhD E, and PhD B on VAD, the best result, and meeting diversity?

We decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of L_C_D_ screen on on the remote control because of costs . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: So you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? marketing: Yep . What I found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . After they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most what they what they find more more interesting , more or more important it's a fancy look and feel instead of instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel . industrial designer: marketing: So now more more cool aspect , ma more a cooler aspect rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see . marketing: also Well in in Euro in in Paris and and Milan the user interface: industrial designer: marketing: in Paris and in Paris and Milan the the current trend of of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it's it's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables . marketing: And also in the in the U_S_A_ the the current the mor the most popular feeling it's it's a spongy . marketing: So maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so user interface: What what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? marketing: user interface: What you mean clothe industrial designer: Spongy means it it's like sp marketing: Fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in Milan ? user interface: No , I missed that one . marketing: Yeah , I I didn't miss an project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: I didn't miss and I saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes . user interface: Oh , they're okay so they're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay . user interface: So we're not gonna have a remote control in the shape of of a banana , marketing: So te textu textures , yeah . industrial designer: But what's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? project manager: Well so this is in the next slide certainly . project manager: It's not ? user interface: marketing: It's user interface: So which fruit are you thinking of ? marketing: And . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: I ha I haven't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur natural object or something . marketing: But yeah it it depends on the project manager: So maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the L_C_D_ . user interface: Oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit , project manager: user interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the industrial designer: Means buttons are in the shape of fruits , marketing: Yeah maybe the shape the shape industrial designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that . marketing: No , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different . marketing: So we shouldn't be at re really attached to to the trend user interface: So something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . user interface: But okay , marketing: user interface: I'm not , I'm not really sure if that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but I don't know about I dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is . I think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices user interface: To fruit ? marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control . user interface: But is it is fruit cool ? marketing: What ? project manager: That's a question . marketing: What ? user interface: Is fruit cool ? marketing: Yeah ? Is the new trend of the user interface: Well I guess , you know , Apple has the iPod so , imagi marketing: user interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , doesn't mean fruit is cool . marketing: No I think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some user interface: Okay , but it has to be easy to to use though and to hold you know , you don't wanna pear or a watermelon . Don don't you think we can find the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? user interface: Well , probably the only thing is a banana that I can think of , industrial designer: Banana . project manager: user interface: So , but you also have to you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and you know . user interface: The thing is you have t normally with with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you're gonna have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build . marketing: Yeah but I li I like your idea that we shouldn't have a lot of buttons b buttons so project manager: Okay . Yeah and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a L_C_D_ on a banana also . marketing: do you want a an L_C_D_ with twenty five Euros ? project manager: Well , you're the Marketing Expert you should tell us if it is too much or not . user interface: Well , this is marketing: I think Well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation , project manager: marketing: so , I will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the project manager: So So you you you suggest to go f marketing: new inputs and also it's I'm not convinced about this L_C_D_ because you need internet connection , you need more things , it's not just buying a new control re remote , you need buying control remote , buying project manager: Okay . project manager: you're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons . So I received an email around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control . industrial designer: But it's just a speaker right ? user interface: It's no , what it is , it's it's very industrial designer: It's not a microphone . user interface: It has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it's got a little chip and it allows you t industrial designer: Actually I'm not reading microphone there , so that's why you can all have conversation , it just to speak to you . It means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that . user interface: I guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control . user interface: But basically the thing is , we have this technology available industrial designer: In-house . user interface: but the thing is obviously there's still gonna be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components , industrial designer: - , user interface: so it it but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from you know a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done . user interface: Whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we if we just dump it , project manager: I there's something that I unclear really understanding . Is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? user interface: It's it it's no , well , it's it'll recognize I guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . You train it for a certain , for a certain phrase , you say the the example they said that they have up and running with their prototype is well they've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that that we're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ? project manager: And it's just to , it's just to playback something ? user interface: Yeah . So actually that was a bad example , 'cause it doesn't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it can't really understand the response , so . user interface: Only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an project manager: Yeah . user interface: It's designed it's designed as a fun kind of thing , project manager: Yeah yeah . user interface: but I guess you could use it as as a way to implement project manager: So it it's c it it marketing: Yeah but you can u project manager: it is a easy a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any user interface: Completely pointless yeah . project manager: yeah comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view . user interface: marketing: Yeah but the can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ? user interface: Well yeah , that's the thing , if you can but you have to pro though I think it's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it doesn't have that kind of logic in it . So this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it . So if if if it is something that you can we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control user interface: Yeah . user interface: I I I I don't think it's worth it though , I think it doesn't really add much to the functional design and it's it's it's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so project manager: Okay . So if we can just move on to the next slide , I've just done a quick mock-up of some of the features of our potential funky-looking remote control marketing: project manager: It doesn't look like a banana at all . user interface: Well , you see , I was I was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus , project manager: Yeah . project manager: But you you can fit i you're saying now you can fit it to marketing: Looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit . user interface: Yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes . user interface: But , I've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause I think the scroll wheel is a fairly key part of , you know , industrial designer: Stable thing , that's right . To have , user interface: I think everyone has has agreed that it's that it could be quite a useful thing , so . user interface: But I think it's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume , project manager: . user interface: because it's it's the volume i it's , you know it's very handy for it to have instant kind of feedback and response , so . user interface: But , I've also included this turbo button because I think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and well marketing: What's a turbo button ? user interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the the tuner on the T_V_ is not gonna be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a Might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . Or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they're doing . marketing: It con it controls the speed ? user interface: Yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if , you know , if I'm if I'm going if I'm scrolling past them and you know , it's , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it's really going fast or whatever . project manager: user interface: So yeah , that's , those are the two important features I think we need on the remote , industrial designer: You know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wanna have like a very cheap kind of device , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it's gonna be a banana , you know that's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that doesn't have that much functionality , it's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it's hard to get so many buttons on a banana project manager: It's enough . user interface: and it's still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , you know , what other buttons do we want ? industrial designer: user interface: we could have well , I guess you need an on and off switch , project manager: Switch on . user interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing . project manager: So i it looks like we're going completely to forget about the L_C_D_ thing . user interface: Well , that's the thing , as have we decided that we can only spend , twenty five Euro ? project manager: I think that user interface: Well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five Euro . project manager: We can't use that to to comman co communicate , industrial designer: Communicate . project manager: it's just a thing marketing: Yeah , but we can say channel twenty five . marketing: No ? user interface: But then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize industrial designer: Well , I f I think it's probably more than , than our can handle because it's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning . Is it design for a coffee machine ? user interface: Well that's its current application , I would presume that it's kind of , they wouldn't design it to handle a hundred things th so . project manager: You want to g to move to your slides ? user interface: But industrial designer: Yeah , that's right , yeah . project manager: You're finished ? user interface: Well I just I just made the point , I don't I don't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , I think it's not really appropriate for television environment . user interface: But I did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about being able to find the remote control marketing: Yeah . user interface: and I was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well . user interface: It might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it's just you press on a button on it and and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote . user interface: Y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition the speech thing could be useful just to say I'm here project manager: Exactly yeah . user interface: but it's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping industrial designer: So it's a speech synthesis kind of thing , user interface: It's speech industrial designer: something has been stored and it's just spoken out . user interface: It's it's speech synthesis and s it's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah industrial designer: So I was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it'll be pretty innovative kind . Then we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your if the remote control falls it's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t user interface: I guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy . Then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they don't feel that it's an alien thing for them . user interface: So , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? You reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause I'm not sure industrial designer: Double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if I'm right . user interface: Okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ? industrial designer: So , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want . industrial designer: These are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with certain other materials we cannot have double curve . So there there was there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is I think is the most appropriate one , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: it'll bring the cost down user interface: Although , you know , wood could be quite a stylish option , industrial designer: and anyway it's user interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on . project manager: but i but there is no elasticity which could be industrial designer: Wooden cases user interface: Well it depends , you have the outs the wood itself is not gonna break so you don't have to worry too much about the case being broken , project manager: Yeah but the components inside . Yeah but inside you know you could have you can still have some kind of cushioning that's not visible to the to the user . project manager: And also user interface: And you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well . user interface: That's true , but are we set on the banana idea ? industrial designer: project manager: Well it look like marketing: Actually project manager: it looks like you are all targeting that marketing: I was thinking that the user interface: project manager: yeah ? marketing: the shape of a banana is not it's not really handy . marketing: I don't know the name o o in English This industrial designer: Is it an e apple which has marketing: it's not a fruit it's a vegetable . user interface: Ah yeah , marketing: user interface: is it what's it in French ? project manager: Poivron . marketing: Oui c'est ca user interface: Yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . project manager: But they do d marketing: And it's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of project manager: Yeah . user interface: I don't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like project manager: Yeah . marketing: No , in a project manager: It's not re it user interface: like with a banana you can have project manager: you you think it's really fancy and fun ? You think that young people that are marketing: I'm sure it's fun . More than a banana ? marketing: But banana is not so handy , user interface: Well industrial designer: Banana is more handier as compared to this I think , and to capsicum . user interface: But like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top project manager: Yeah . user interface: and just roll it back and forth like that , project manager: It's kind it's kind of it's more user interface: but with I don't know how you would hold a capsicum and project manager: it's really ergonomic , it's fit in the hand and you've a lot of surface to to put the controls . industrial designer: Okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they don't feel they are alienated , just and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . These are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that . Then there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . And regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced . user interface: So is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of industrial designer: It could be a beep kind of thing . user interface: Okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ? industrial designer: Yes , yes , that's right , it's it's onto the chip , user interface: Okay . So are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ? industrial designer: That will be the volume control I think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . Yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker . industrial designer: As or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place , user interface: Yeah . So that's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside . And these were the findings which I I saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our T_V_ remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like V_C_R_ D_V_D_ players which are usually attached with the T_V_ , because users are like this and they don't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us . user interface: Although , if It depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wanna sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device . user interface: Cause that , you know , that sometimes people like to collect you know things that of a similar type . marketing: I think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: And as well as I could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really hot thing s project manager: Okay . user interface: Well marketing: Actually I I didn't understand very well this trace speaker lost control . Now let's say marketing: So you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station . industrial designer: It's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . So now what user gets additionally he doesn't have to buy batteries , they're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he'll recover the cost . So you're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . user interface: I think it's kind of people would find that worth it even if it wasn't a recharging station , even if they didn't have to buy extra batteries , you know . industrial designer: this is basis station is nothing more , just it's a wire which is coming from the main cable and you're having one socket on which the thing sits . user interface: Although you do need to include R_F_ kind of circuitry in the remote . Anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , L_C_D_ has already been ruled out , A_S_R_ has been ruled out . I'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , I this whole fruit thing with the banana , it's it seemed like it first seems a bit kind of niche , like only a few people would really want a banana , industrial designer: And user interface: but what if it was kind of a stylised banana ? You know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . And , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . user interface: Well , you know , I don I don't know how many peop industrial designer: marketing: project manager: If you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana . No , I I industrial designer: A yeah , otherwise it'll be mis means you don't get b any feeling then . industrial designer: It's neither a banana nor a user interface: Yeah , like this colour this colour Maybe , you know , maybe like still in the shape of a banana . , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know because the thing is it's gonna be a little bit difficult to make to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . I think if you're gonna not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies . Before before st before ending the meeting I'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype . project manager: Well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before industrial designer: Okay . Anyway , users'll be so the findings is users'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes . user interface: project manager: So I I propose that you go to the whiteboard user interface: Yeah . project manager: and we're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product user interface: Okay . project manager: and where Superman go banana and user interface: project manager: extra func functionalities such as wheels , the speaker unit well not in order not to lost the the device , industrial designer: project manager: I do I don't remember you call it ? industrial designer: That's right . user interface: Yeah , so , I guess you wanna hold like the way the end of the banana you wanna kind of hold as ma you maybe wanna kinda hold like a gun rather than 'cause you don't want it to point kind of towards the floor . user interface: So you know , so if you have like marketing: What about what about this shape ? More or less . project manager: I if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could marketing: Yeah , but how many buttons do we need ? project manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . If you don't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you don't have to do it in fact , it's better . So ti time is running , industrial designer: what about a project manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . user interface: So project manager: We have a a basis , how do you call it ? industrial designer: The base station . user interface: okay , so I guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object . user interface: Okay , so it's project manager: So we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis . So we are going to add also you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo button . Yeah , which I think it's it's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device , industrial designer: Turbo button . user interface: so you have project manager: And the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance . user interface: So yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel . project manager: Oh , just the switch , industrial designer: Remotes don't have power on off switch . They are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you don't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this . user interface: Well , I dunno if the traditional user is gonna buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know . user interface: Y you need to kind of keep it industrial designer: But you know our targets are very high , means fifty million Euros is the profit which we want make . marketing: What about user interface: Yeah , how many of these did we wanna sell ? I can't remember , industrial designer: Twenty five . marketing: user interface: Yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell ? industrial designer: forty th four . project manager: The next step is to go for to f is to go to to building a prototype , based on this , okay ? user interface: Okay . You have to work on the look and feel design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first f first prototype . user interface: project manager: Okay ? marketing: I wo what about adding the this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? project manager: It's too difficult . marketing: It's too difficult but people like innovation and that's really innovative and I don't know if it would cost a lot , just a few five words . project manager: It's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it's in the next prototype so let's skip it . project manager: Yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we'll go for an orange one <doc-sep>marketing: Hello project manager: like before we I have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: it was discussed in the last meeting which was opened by the presentation from the interface designer that looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: Designer . It should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal features she would like see d d to be integrated in this in this new remote . user interface: project manager: marketing: And she was challenged on that point project manager: that's right . industrial designer: project manager: But her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . She would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . And how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the to the generat to the generator amplification and the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature to to to consider . project manager: She would like this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . The marketing expert who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . From her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . To do that maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . And the decision that we took last time was that the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . industrial designer: and it's it's blue in colour bright and it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: industrial designer: and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: You used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: yeah and the material which we are going to use for the case is plastic and w which which is s strong and also for the the material is plastic and for the buttons it is s soft rubber and als marketing: Oh that's good , industrial designer: yeah . industrial designer: Yeah because you'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . industrial designer: And then for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: Now these features includes the s signal emitting signal it's the led or L_E_D_ the infrared . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: Now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . marketing: The next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: No , swapping is if if example you're you're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . user interface: And at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user's voice and then it'll act accordingly . user interface: give her suggestion whether it'll be sellable or it'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: Okay , well what what I really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: Yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you don't need two hands industrial designer: marketing: and it's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: Yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: The buttons are all raised project manager: Are raised , marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you don't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: Right . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: and I like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . project manager: Yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: Yeah , that's great . project manager: you don't have to g first go like oh yeah here it's on and yeah , the these buttons around here are the mute user interface: No , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . project manager: So if you're left-handed or right-handed it doesn't matter . marketing: And this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: Pardon me ? This is the menu yes , yes . marketing: This brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: A the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: Okay . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: Okay and now I'm supposed to project manager: Well , I have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: Yes , it will have these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . project manager: Will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and doesn't have to first learn it user interface: Yes , which can be easily recognised . marketing: Good point because we need the symbols 'cause we're going into an international market we can't have anything that's language dependent . But anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: That's right . user interface: And and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: Well you know I think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: project manager: Now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: So project manager: That's really the voice recognition that's really unusual marketing: I think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: . project manager: And then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: So I think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image play with the visual and then the voice recognition . project manager: Okay , now having said that marketing: I'm supposed to make a little presentation , aren't I ? project manager: No , now this was our evaluation criteria which we just have done . marketing: Ah , but in my instructions I think it said I was supposed to go to the board and do something . marketing: Can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? Or project manager: Oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: electronics , simple chip on print ? Is that's what we're using ? user interface: Yes . project manager: but , yes but industrial designer: I think that is f for rubbers that is yeah case material . project manager: That's just for the case material , user interface: Is this for the case ? Yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: Oh okay , the - , ' kay . marketing: 'cause we didn't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: No . project manager: button supplement special colour ? user interface: Speci Yes project manager: Special form ? user interface: Yes d we do have special form . user interface: One two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: ? industrial designer: Maybe it is it just n project manager: Eight , eight point two . marketing: Okay , well obviously my method for s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? And I think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we haven't thought of . marketing: We can't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . marketing: And show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we don't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we won't sell any . marketing: And then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it's good , we're gonna get behind it and sell it . Okay , now the things that I was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . I wanted the shape to be biomorphic , I didn't want anything with angles and all square , I wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we've got that . We wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it's gonna be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that's nice . And functionality I put last on my list because people aren't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: So paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel and the shape , that's what people are gonna get in the store . marketing: They don't have a television in the store , they can't play with it . The size is small and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these aren't i in how I feel . I think that it's I think that it's plenty small enough to sell but I think we're sort of right the scale is one to seven . And then functionality I think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we'd disturb something else so I would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . marketing: So I think that basically we've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: And I don't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: Well , we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: Eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: Eight twenty so marketing: And so we've got we've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: We have four euros , yeah project manager: maximum we have another four point three euros four thirty . Well that's project manager: But we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: Well as we know in today's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: I'm sorry to interrupt then but I just recog I just remembered that there was no that that was not included that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: Included , yeah . You wanna go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: well I isn't this my last slide ? project manager: I dunno . and we're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: Why ? Wh why you need that up ? marketing: ? Well because I can't remember what I put on there . Okay user interface: marketing: you're the designer , of course you wanna give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: Colour I marketing: Colour , I gave it a one . marketing: Okay , I gave it a three , two , user interface: I'll give three . marketing: And the next is functionality where I I admit I was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: Well it's also you can't really try it out the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: Yeah . the functionality's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . marketing: But otherwise I think we're we're ready to go to go with this product . Anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: . Is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: We can always improve , yes . I think they are quite big , so I think I we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . Well then again if we're gonna do the speech recognition thing we're gon there gonna be some buttons that are gonna have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . marketing: So that that's where we're gonna have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . marketing: and a couple of other th maybe comp consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: Y al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: user interface: And maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably can't , with this particular item , we probably can't just add a whole lot of more things . project manager: we need you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . project manager: So th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? , are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? I think personally I think I'm pretty happy . marketing: I'm pretty happy with it too , yeah , project manager: an industrial designer: Even I'm happy . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? marketing: I think you've done a good job , Miss leader . project manager: And I think team work I think was very very good , I think we really industrial designer: project manager: And I think we are we happy with the means we used ? We used whiteboard , we didn't use digital p well digital pens I guess are these things . marketing: Yeah maybe we could've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: Whiteboard more , yes , yes . , it's maybe not in the best position in the room you know like sometimes it's positioned so that it's much better visible for everybody and I think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . project manager: I think we we did , in more than one respect and so I think we did very well here . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: So I I thank you all very much . project manager: I always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: Do we do we have some time left ? you have user interface: They say it's forty minutes . project manager: Ah yes we have time later marketing: But we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . marketing: It'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace <doc-sep>project manager: in the last meeting the marketing manager had presented her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market this this product at the within the budget that was given . In addition to that to make it sell , of course , the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that's a very important fact , 'cause if they say , well , I go home and think about it , that won't work . project manager: Our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . If too many buttons are pressed , child lock and maybe a display clock so that people could you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . So the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder for the for the item . project manager: interface designer has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . marketing: project manager: And even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite program on th right from the remote . project manager: are we all in agreement that that's about what we discussed last time ? Okay . And I don't know whether the order matters much , I don't I don't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: Okay , I can start first . user interface: Now as an interface designer , I would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . This messages could be switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: Nine what ? Nine channel switches ? user interface: Pardon me ? project manager: Nine channel switches ? Is Yeah . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you don't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . Then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on v eh scrolling the channels one by one . user interface: Then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . user interface: Then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . For example , if you are watching a French program and you would like to have a subtitles in English , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see the the subtitles on the screen . user interface: Then there should d there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . Suddenly if if if viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he doesn't want to switch off the T_V_ , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can while talking he can watch the T_V_ . So a remote can be th can be designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , th now the the yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . user interface: So the T_V_ will have some recogniser which will recognise the user's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . user interface: Then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . user interface: So sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . Yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . marketing: user interface: And this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for T_V_ , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for V_C_R_ , D_V_D_s and audio . project manager: user interface: Can you go on to the next slide ? Yeah , now this is an interface for a chil for a remote which a child can use . user interface: this is user-friendly , it's very attractive and children can use it as well as they can play with it . user interface: And this this child interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . Now this is a big over-sized remote which cannot be misplaced or it's impossible to misplace . user interface: project manager: user interface: So this is No this is a very big , you cannot misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: So this is a jumbo universal remote control and it's impossible to im misplace or lose . And the personal preference would be a spe to incorporate speech recognisers which will respond to user's voice for a particular function . any comments on her presentation ? marketing: Well , looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . I don't think that we can get The T-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , I think it's just funny . marketing: I don't think that's gonna be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . user interface: project manager: No , I think the these are her presentations , but as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: Yeah . project manager: but if I just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . industrial designer: this time I'm I'm going to concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: industrial designer: the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it's like it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just , you know , if you if it falls down , then it doesn't break . industrial designer: yeah , and also using of colouring compon components like if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so we have to use some colouring compone compone components . marketing: industrial designer: which we can use a highly sophisticated one because it's like the it's like the heart of the remote controller . If it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be like the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . Suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should be able to re resist the temperature highs and high temperatures and low temperatures . And the other component we should we have in the remote controller is a resistor which is like i it is very very much important for the electricity flow through through through the remote controller and also a capacitor which is a b which is a m I think it's it's like a battery , capacitor . industrial designer: a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this technical electri electronic compons components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . A battery , I would like to suggest one thing if we if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it can't l it can't charge much . Then also we can If it is a rechargeable one , then people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . Suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: It pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . Suppose the user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the L_E_D_ which translates the signal into infrared light . It will amplify the signal and it will send it to the L_E_D_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . The sensor on the T_V_ can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will it will know which what what action it has to do . When you look at the remote controller it's it's it this is a normal remote controller . And if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: industrial designer: and also a capac a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator yeah , and di and a diode transistor . industrial designer: The electronic components all of the electronic components have all those things like a chip and d diode transistors an Yeah , di can y you can see the T_A_ double one eight three five labelled chip . industrial designer: you can also see the the green two green things are these are they are they are resistors , user interface: industrial designer: and just beside that you can see a transistor , and a cylinder shape , that one is a capacitor . Actually , building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty easy and also it's a it's a l l inexpensive . it's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because when you when you are building some circuits some circuits and also wires , it's it's better to go for printing , because you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it's just printing , nothing like , you know , you don't need to use wires and all . So th that green thing is a circuit board , and also you can see there are b s like access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , integrated circuit . And like we have designed before we have seen some few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . industrial designer: and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious hard dynamo , a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . Like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we can't use . and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular re or an advanced chip on the print , also infra it includes the infrared se sender . project manager: Any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: No , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , which which we used to do before ten ten years before , I think . industrial designer: Now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . project manager: We don't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: alright , my method is I'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wanna see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so I've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . And then when I'm out in people's houses or at meetings or anything like that , I try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it's convenient in the conversation I ask about it . They don't want to have to squint at small print , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want as few buttons as possible , and they don't care for the mode thing . and our preference is , as far as I'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . Ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their Christmas item . If we try to tell people it has too many great features , the consumer just gets confused and we don't get anywhere . So we've gotta narrow our selection down to li two things , I think , that we gonna say are really great about our our our new product . They are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . project manager: And so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: You wanna try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: Y user interface: yes , I would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . marketing: So speech recognition is most important as far as you're concerned ? user interface: This could be one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: Yeah , but w marketing: Yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . industrial designer: Yeah , but but I what I'm very very much doubtful how how far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own problems , issues . marketing: Distance problem ? industrial designer: Yeah , it's not distance problem it it's recognising a person's voice , user interface: industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it's everything so i marketing: . project manager: Well , you you teach You have to teach industrial designer: So to get a good recogni recognising system , it's a costly thing , I think . marketing: user interface: No , it's it's , yeah , it it's like your recording of all a question already , and then you're expecting an answer from th For example , you have a T_V_ system , I'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: user interface: I will already record a question like , good morning , industrial designer: Yeah , but Yeah . user interface: So I'll say just good morning and the T_V_ will switch on . project manager: Okay , before we get too far off here , the components of the concept is the energy . project manager: User interface concept , interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: That will be your area I think , right , Jana . user interface: Supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: Well , I think that Yeah , project manager: Oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . marketing: Okay , so why don't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the I_D_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and the U_I_D_ is supposed to come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: project manager: In this phase , the two of you , Jana and Francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . project manager: if you have any questions , you know , you you can always contact me or or your coach , I suppose . user interface: marketing: Wherever they're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: so I think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in thirty minutes , according to our timetable here <doc-sep>It's not as interesting as it should be because we just had the meeting , marketing: project manager: but I'll show them . I've put a f a file in the project management folder , which says exactly what kind of decisions we should take . this because of our last model was very functional , but it people didn't like that , so our new mo model must be very good-looking . project manager: marketing: such as an L_C_D_ screen , speech acknowledgement , as we talked about earlier . marketing: So we have to have something like that , like we project manager: L_C_D_ and our our fronts . industrial designer: Easy to use ? project manager: Well , easy to use s is a bit contradictionary with the first marketing: Yeah ? industrial designer: I think that's your ta user interface: project manager: Functional is not an issue , and then easy to use . industrial designer: you can make a very complicated remote anyway , so ease of use It's not a very comp complicated device . But the most important thing is that it looks great and people say wow , that's real great great concept . project manager: user interface: marketing: The group we are targeting is very pleased with fruit and vegetables . industrial designer: marketing: So we we we might cons consider in front of in in that sort of way . project manager: Well the the handy thing about our fronts is that we can follow these trends e ev every year . And the materials ? I have heard several things , so I I'll have to change that on the way . project manager: Well maybe it it it is , industrial designer: We should move to something project manager: but it doesn't look strong . Y Hard plastic i is of course pretty pretty tough , but it doesn't have a really really tough look . it's generally the case that senior and wealthy people above forty five years old like , as you said , particularly the traditional materials as such as wood and materials such as that . industrial designer: And then we have young and dynamic people , which is of course our group , the people we aim at . Soft materials is of course agai again a bit a contradiction with our material choice of what you said , that it should be hard an and and and and strong looking . And if also a finding but not very ap applicable here , that sports and gaming devices such as discmans for jogging and that those kind of devices , gaming devices , should define the characteristics of the device . But since we don't have a really a sports or gaming device , so we don't really have to consider that . project manager: Sports , they're that are accessible on on your L_C_D_ window user interface: Soccer fronts . project manager: All the results ? industrial designer: Well I also have several examples of styles , marketing: We keep coming back to the fronts . industrial designer: It looks like Well you know you recognise the shapes , project manager: industrial designer: it's very primary colours , bright colours and round shapes . project manager: industrial designer: You also see this device , it's not very round and Fruity of course . industrial designer: So to give you an idea of marketing: Well it's got a strong look , this . Although it's plastic , it's it's grey to to to give it iron look . Well we have to make a project manager: Well you can make th th th that middle ring can you you can make another colour . I don't think that's very practical , project manager: No , it isn't . industrial designer: Because if we make it grey or or silvery looking , it it does make it a lot more does make it looking a lot more stronger . industrial designer: 'Cause if you look at this , it it doesn't look very very strong , marketing: Yeah but the industrial designer: becau But this is plastic , and and this too , but marketing: But it doesn't have to look strong . project manager: So , if you ti industrial designer: Well user interface: And it it doesn't have to be strong , also . project manager: Well marketing: Nah yeah the feel project manager: You you Maybe you should have some some coloured titanium or something . But solar energy is not very practical inside a house , because you don't have a have a lot of sun . marketing: industrial designer: And kinetic and and and dynamos are are not very practical , I think , for for a simple remote , marketing: industrial designer: that's a bit , oh , that's a bit That's a bit much . If you use the curved case , a curved case , double curved then you can't use titanium . project manager: What do you exactly mean with double curved ? industrial designer: Now this to give it a more modern look . project manager: Double curved ? industrial designer: I'll draw it , project manager: It it mean user interface: Yeah . marketing: industrial designer: And it makes it gives it a more u user friendly shape , than if you have . No otherwi no difficult scroll things or some things like that , because it makes more complex and expensive . And , as we agreed , we don't use a speaker or a sensor or speak speech controlled device . But we do use an L_C_D_ screen , so we we do have to consider of we have to use a more advanced chip , which is more complex and expensive . But It's worth the trouble I think , project manager: Well user interface: The buttons can be made of an a soft material . project manager: marketing: user interface: there are new developments in speech recognition systems , and they are already being used on coffee machines . user interface: it's not really speech recognition , it's more like you can talk to the chip , record the message and record an answer , and then once you talk to the remote , then he will a answer with the the prerecorded message that you left . So if I say hi Mike , and you have recorded hi Mike back , then you will get that . That's a bit user interface: But i it's just a marketing: But that that makes it cheap . marketing: It's it's just a an extra function , project manager: But it has no functionality for our remote at all . user interface: No marketing: No but user interface: but that's the gadget they want , or the gimmicks . user interface: Well , as I said earlier I think the L_C_D_ screen should be positioned at the lower end of the remote . project manager: user interface: the buttons for screen width and general settings and and that kind of stuff marketing: user interface: we can also do let that kind of functions be shown in the L_C_D_ screen , instead of extra buttons . project manager: So you put a menu in the L_C_D_ ? user interface: I think young people and yeah w well every user would like that . the buttons should be positioned positioned the same way as they are on a , well , conventional remote , I think . And I drew an example , industrial designer: user interface: but it did not work quite the well the way I wanted it to do . user interface: ? Well I have the I can draw it again , industrial designer: Can you draw it now ? user interface: and I know what I did wrong . marketing: How do you give input to the menu on the L_C_D_ screen ? user interface: with the the up and down and and well buttons and the marketing: Alright . industrial designer: Those are the the cha the channel buttons of course ? user interface: Yeah just the numbers . industrial designer: And then below is the L_C_D_ screen ? user interface: These these will be bigger in the the real design . user interface: This must be the Okay button used to interact with the L_C_D_ screen . user interface: And with this you can , yes , go to through the menus project manager: Yeah . user interface: and that can the video button should be an apart button , marketing: You've project manager: Yes . project manager: And what's the menu button ? user interface: it's marketing: And you you need a you need a speaker . user interface: ? marketing: For the user interface: This button can also be the Menu button , we use in the menus industrial designer: project manager: But how did How do you get out of the menu then ? Yeah . user interface: Well we we can add another button here , but project manager: Maybe I you could j just do an an exit with Okay . project manager: Yes , well but bec because when you push Menu you get in , industrial designer: Yeah ? Yeah ? project manager: and then you have to push Okay when you get to a choice . That's you you should have user interface: No no , we we we should add a extra Menu button industrial designer: No . project manager: Or you can put in the L_C_D_'s window an option Get Out . user interface: Ah once you have an extra Menu button , you don't need that that extra option . user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: marketing: Or don't user interface: if we decide to to implement that , maybe we should . industrial designer: Why would you put it then , and where is the recording the microphone ? user interface: Well they that could be anywhere . user interface: Well the speaker and the microphone , I think , are the same little hole thingy . industrial designer: but we could d do , but it's perhaps more expensive , the speaker on the back or something . user interface: Well i there are a all already being implemented in in coffee machines , so they won't be very expensive . And oh I think as you can see so , the L_C_D_ screen does look better at the lower end , or at the bottom . project manager: Yes ? user interface: You can But I did not like it very much , but marketing: user interface: Well these are quite obvious , very ugly remote . user interface: No , well th marketing: Nei They're n they're not trendy . user interface: this is for children but th industrial designer: Tho Yeah those marketing: It doesn't look strong . user interface: W but with the colours i it's a bit the way we're going to . industrial designer: But it it must not look too childish of course huh ? project manager: It's it's all too much buttons . I think we should , if it's possible , one with colours , but marketing: Nah th It's too expensive . user interface: I don't know project manager: Well , that's too expensive I think . project manager: It still has t marketing: You can make the the underside , you can make it more round , where the L_C_D_ is . user interface: Well marketing: I dunno if you know the No Nokia telephone , with the round thing at at the bottoms , s something like that . It's just a half round half half circle at And then it falls exactly over the hand , and that's very nice . All the the materials from the case , the electric cable that's all your your side of the story . now from the user interface , your package ? where No well , that's more like the buttons where they have to come . marketing: Materials are the most , most impor project manager: So as you said , fruity is in , well sells good . so if we go through them industrial designer: Copy paste this story into a into a Word document , and then put the answers after the subjects . industrial designer: Well we have to decide all these things ? user interface: Yeah but all these examples are of a coffee machine . project manager: Yeah well Why should I industrial designer: W we can override them ? marketing: project manager: Yeah . I suggest Well what do I suggest actually ? project manager: What what kind of properties should it have ? Well we just listened . user interface: Why don't we use titanium or or a hard , yeah , some kind of metal for the the the whole remote except the front . industrial designer: Yeah but the non-removable elements of the of the remote , so not the front , could be titanium , user interface: Yeah . user interface: And I don't know if you can make steel just any way you want it to . user interface: Well any colour industrial designer: According to my sources , it's it's totally possible to make an entire Titanium is available , and we can make an entire remote out of it , if we want . marketing: So , we're going for a titanium back and a plastic front ? project manager: I've user interface: . project manager: So material , hard plastic for the front ? industrial designer: Yeah , for the front and then titanium for the back . marketing: But then you have the problem , when you have a titanium back , you can't switch it . industrial designer: Well but marketing: You know ? industrial designer: The titan titanium isn't isn't v very Yeah , i it doesn't curves . Titanium is very No no no , but you know b Titanium is very basic colour , marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah . industrial designer: and it doesn't really matter if we have a purple front on it or a orange front . industrial designer: And even if it does doesn't match , it will People like colours that don't match . industrial designer: Excuse me ? marketing: user interface: The electrical cable does industrial designer: project manager: It's from our coffee industrial designer: Yeah copper i just a ba basic user interface: No we don't use an electrical cable . industrial designer: Yeah in project manager: industrial designer: Yeah well inside the remote control we use a couple of project manager: Of course . project manager: Well marketing: project manager: all the all the inside work of our remote is standard work . user interface: and I will project manager: Well you can put that in into the shared folder , user interface: The shared folder . And what do we ? user interface: project manager: We thing that fruit and bright colours are industrial designer: Yeah the the the front w marketing: I think we can launch a couple of packages . marketing: Yeah but if you if you launch five different packages like iPod mini user interface: Yeah , right For the initiative launch . project manager: We should not give them the m the most lovely front when they buy it for the first time . user interface: Well you can you can give them s s three or so , industrial designer: The most boring fronts possible . industrial designer: Yeah but you you can have some basic colours , and then we come with the special patterns on them , project manager: Yeah . user interface: Red red , blue and green you give them or something , industrial designer: and and marketing: Yeah . this fruit and bright colours , yeah well I think we'll have to in the next half an hour , we'll have to s s specify the different types we want to launch , when we well introduce our remote . industrial designer: we still have to make We have still have to make the es the the real basic design . project manager: Well I'll have to , before I get another warning for five minutes , I'm going to get Where is my mouse ? where is my mouse ? industrial designer: marketing: Lost my mouse . industrial designer: How Yeah yeah , but how do I user interface: But bu we stay we stay here or something ? project manager: Yes well we'll get it to hear that I think . Th they're saying SMARTboard and that's it marketing: You can take the SMARTboard . And take it to our rooms and project manager: so you can you you are going to make a prototype , and y Well that's includes specifying the buttons etcetera . well you will go and do something else on the project user interface: industrial designer: Some Some non functional tasks . project manager: what are you going to do ? I don't know what product evaluation exactly means , but you'll get the specifications . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: No but project manager: How long do we still have ? industrial designer: Well , can we talk about something else ? project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah ? user interface: Will we use round buttons or square ones for the for the numbers ? industrial designer: Round I think . user interface: And these these s these buttons are more triangle-ish shaped project manager: Why does marketing: Curvy . industrial designer: But now I see the marketing: And this must be volume I think , project manager: Heh ? marketing: and this programme . project manager: We can't get user interface: Well most of the time up and down is programme and left and right are volume , I think . user interface: Yeah , it depends , but If you turn up the volume , you always see this thingy go up . industrial designer: Well we We we j we'll just give them an marketing: Yeah , that's right . industrial designer: project manager: So what are we going to do ? I as Project Manager ha don't have a clue . I think a logo , our company logo , and the slogan should be or could be project manager: Also the slogan ? On the industrial designer: Yeah , why not ? If there's enough space , you can put user interface: I I'd say only the logo . project manager: And well you c On the back , you can put h At the bottom , you can put the logo with the industrial designer: Right corner , or maybe here in the middle ? user interface: the text ? project manager: Yeah . user interface: yeah , at the back ? marketing: But the logo the logo shouldn't be exchangeable , when you get off the front . industrial designer: Yeah it it should be hard on the on the on the board , project manager: Yeah well marketing: Yeah . marketing: Yeah , user interface: Yeah , but then you must really yeah push it in or something . industrial designer: I l I like the idea of the of the slogan on the on the on the thing . user interface: industrial designer: But am I the only one , or user interface: Yeah , on the backside . industrial designer: No not on the front , user interface: On the back Yes , you you can , yeah , push that in , industrial designer: but on the backside . industrial designer: I think it's a nice idea , to make it more recognisable , that the next to the logo you have the slogan . project manager: Yes , slogan from company on the back with logo industrial designer: But we'll we'll take that with us into the design . industrial designer: Do you do you see a bit of the of the of the titanium ? O on the front ? project manager: Five minutes left . industrial designer: maybe if we make this this this lower part titanium , user interface: Yes we could industrial designer: the front is the the upper part , and the the bit with the with the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: of between we can do but But then you have two parts of front , two fronts that user interface: No , they have two fronts , marketing: No no no no . industrial designer: This enti entire bottom ? marketing: Else you you get problems with the L_C_D_ . user interface: No , you can you can just And then not a straight line but some sort of wave or something . industrial designer: it's marketing: Yeah , project manager: What ? industrial designer: Yeah yeah . industrial designer: That's a bit too much , but project manager: No that's nothing . project manager: Well I think we can , I just It's marketing: It's not relaxing . project manager: Yeah , o user interface: the fourth one is empty , isn't it ? marketing: project manager: Oh user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: You have to empty one huh ? project manager: Oh , we have a one . marketing: industrial designer: What are you doing chief ? project manager: So , you can draw a Yeah . user interface: Yeah I think we have to wait ? industrial designer: Yeah project manager: Well I'll get a I'll get the message . marketing: No user interface: industrial designer: But I don't Do we have to stay here , marketing: project manager: No , I think industrial designer: or I think we have to return first . Well we have b you have to have a bit of humour in the in the discussions too , marketing: You just have to push harder . industrial designer: project manager: We know you'll you'll you'll hate it but industrial designer: But th youth doesn't care about functio functionality , so marketing: No . project manager: Well , that's not bad , is it ? industrial designer: Well they marketing: No . project manager: So is it user interface: Yes , but you you get really close to the screen with your hand , industrial designer: user interface: and I don't think that's industrial designer: marketing: . user interface: industrial designer: Where's the good old chalk board with the the green board with the , how do you call it , chalk , yeah . industrial designer: Maybe if i if that thing is recalibrated , we can draw a thing quick , and then before it goes off again . Alright now we know what to do , so user interface: We'll stay here ? project manager: marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Maybe w maybe we maybe w m Can we get email here ? project manager: No , get away <doc-sep>industrial designer: Who is gonna do a PowerPoint presentation ? user interface: Think we all industrial designer: You will as well ? user interface: Huh . I just wanna 'cause basically I can't re I've really crap at remembering everyone's name so I just wanna rather than going Miss Marketing and Miss this and Miss that wanted to know your names again . industrial designer: Okay I'm project manager: just gonna leave this up here 'cause I'll you know . And you're s r R_E_I_S_S_ marketing: I am Reissa . this is gonna go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: 'cause I know what I'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: I am your Project Manager , and , yeah , I'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and I'm gonna be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is I'm gonna have some presentations from all three of you , what you've been working on for the last wee while , when you haven't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . We'll we'll talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . and then we'll , yeah , we'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: How long is the meeting ? project manager: This meeting it's not very long . So I want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . project manager: if you haven't done a PowerPoint thingy , it doesn't matter , it it just it just says that you it's that's just one particular medium . If you haven't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . project manager: are you b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: I yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just doing some Internet shopping there ? user interface: Think she's finishing up her presentation . Alright , let's have well , we all know that it's it's a remote control that we're gonna be dealing with . project manager: I think the first thing we should look at is probably the what it is that it is actually supposed to be . project manager: You don't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: Are we getting i Really ? project manager: there you go . marketing: industrial designer: So the working design , I've got a very quick presentation on this , so I've oh no , you can't see a thing . So the idea is that we've got the energy source , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . So I think maybe two batteries , I dunno what they're called six , or something like that . industrial designer: and then then on the remote control itself will have the sender for the signal , which could be an infra-red signal , which will be sent by an electronic chip . industrial designer: And the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . industrial designer: Sorry the presentation wasn't very clear but project manager: I prefer the pe I prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: should I erase this or project manager: Do you wanna just give us a moment , I just wanna copy this down . project manager: I dunno if you guys have got any questions for Catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: Fine . Or suggestions ? marketing: Is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: Well , it's just , you don't want it plugged in really , s user interface: Yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: Yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: In indoors . marketing: No I meant like industrial designer: marketing: No 'cause like cha 'cause always changing batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: The battery's down and maybe , I dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: I dunno , swi I th I th I think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: Yeah , it's worked for the last fifty years you know . user interface: One question I have , and I don't know how much control we have over this is , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the T_V_ , and still have it be operational ? , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: It's never gonna be more than it's never gonna be , you kno unless you've got a T_V_ the size of a football pitch , it's not doesn't have to go that far , user interface: industrial designer: Well , the thing is you you don't project manager: does it ? Doesn't have to go through a wall , because you're not gonna be looking through a wall . marketing: Yeah , but if like you're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you don't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: Well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . I didn't think about that but marketing: How about Bluetooth ? Instead of using infra-red , use Bluetooth . industrial designer: Why not ? I just think that it's it's gonna cost more marketing: Isn't that a better signal ? project manager: Yeah , yeah I d it sounds like you you w don't wanna overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and I'm I'm not sure it's you're gonna use it . industrial designer: It's a fancy idea it's quite nice , but then I don't th I dunno , either you if you wanna watch the telly you're in the room , project manager: Yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gonna project manager: Basically , we're we're desi we're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: But project manager: We're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . industrial designer: Oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i We can see at a later stage , maybe , I don't marketing: 'S just an idea . industrial designer: Do you need the border ? user interface: I'm just gonna use the PowerPoint . user interface: Yeah , and basically , as far as methods , I was I was looking looking at looking at already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . Thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design . we don't want to do something that's too radical of a change , I guess , people want a remote that's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities and and does the basics , but project manager: yeah . user interface: so we can improve what's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . so things that seem like absolute must-haves would be a volume control , so up-down keys for that , channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and a mute button . one thing that I didn't include here , that I forgot that we talked about last time , was doing some sort of lock function . And so in the research that I was doing there's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which I don't know if I can access the web page from here , but I can show you . So this is a engineer centred one , so you see it's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , freeze frame . it's it's easier to g just glance at this and see what's possible to do , project manager: Yeah . user interface: And I judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting I kind of gathered that that's what we were going after , or the direction we were going in at least . So , the engineering centred ones provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person , Reissa , marketing: user interface: because we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . This w research that you've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: No that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as I know . I dunno , what do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that's really necessary ? project manager: I would say it's If it's simple to do , which I think it probably should be , user interface: Yeah . project manager: even if it's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , then yes , user interface: project manager: it's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: Right . I've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is we've gotta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . project manager: You know , the the company it's it's , from what I can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . project manager: So it's kinda gotta look it's gotta look new and s you know something fashionable . If if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: Well yeah these , I think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what I didn't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . Because we need user interface: I t I think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , . industrial designer: user interface: everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of in the market , I guess . user interface: Yeah , then you just have to do function F_ eight and it should come up . Well , for our marketing report we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants questionnaires to fill out . total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . So , they don't like like the way they operate it doesn't like match how people behave . per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably don't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: You are a child of technology , aren't you ? marketing: so yeah I was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . And it's easy to find , so I don't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they'd be interested in voice activating . marketing: so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason didn't want a voice activated one . And neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: but do the younger generation have the money ? They they don't . project manager: It's older generation , they're the ones that have gone out and marketing: Well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: People people from the age of thirty f there's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: For people up to the age of thirty five , you're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . but no they're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: Yeah , that would be my guess as well . marketing: So they don't project manager: d and tha marketing: Well project manager: and that's a that's quite a minority there , so yeah , it's not even like fifty fifty that's th thirty five per cent . user interface: What about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? if if it's twelve fifty per unit . marketing: also with with buttons , a thing called R_S_I_ , so wrist sense user interface: Repetitive strain rep repetitive strain injury marketing: Huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: Yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they don't I think people who watch T_V_ maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . project manager: So y so it's so it's so you got user interface: project manager: so that's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: Yeah user interface: . project manager: see have a look if there's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: Maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: Yeah . project manager: Let's jus marketing: Maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people aren't gonna sue us in ten years' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . project manager: I'll see if I can get see if I can get hold of them for the next meeting . I think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . Maybe th the buttons not so high up so you don't have to press so much , user interface: . okay , so we've basically we've decide we've d we've decided that it's gonna be , you know , we're going for a basic television remote . project manager: Now going back to the industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or Bluetooth . I think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . But a in there's no I don't think there's any point in making a remote control unit that's gonna last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we won't have televisions in ten years' time . user interface: Yeah , it seems like we're all on the pretty much on the same page . Have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: Oh it's probably just you , 'cause you're the project manager . Do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: Yeah , you can . I industrial designer: Well , in the project announcement , you've got the addresses , I think . marketing: I think he's participant one , aren't you ? industrial designer: So Project Manager , it's participant one at A_M_I_ . project manager: Can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: You have them i you have them , user interface: Well it's just w it's just it's just par participant one , participant two . project manager: Send me , yeah industrial designer: You want to have friends , don't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: So are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: Is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? I I kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but I might be just going a bit user interface: Well , it's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: Well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: It wouldn't be user interface: . marketing: Can't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: Well , see the thing is is we've gotta keep the company image . project manager: It's gotta say people have gotta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it's a Real Reaction i product . marketing: But if it's a R_R_ , it would be Real Reaction , project manager: There's loads of companies that called R_R_ . project manager: This is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . user interface: And this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: Yeah . project manager: Not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it's one of our products industrial designer: Well you could project manager: as opposed to a Sony product or a , you know , a Panasonic product . project manager: It's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: It could come But it could come in different colours and have the R_R_ colours just somewhere project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the R_R_ logo or colours and project manager: Yeah . project manager: If we've if we've finished at five minutes before the meeting's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . I just have to there's a few little bits and pieces I have to write down , but Take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em

The team discussed various designs for the remote control, including a voice recognizer remote with multi-purpose use, a child-friendly and compact remote, and an oversized remote. The T-shaped design and child-friendly interface were well-received, but the oversized remote was deemed impractical. The main function of the remote would be sending messages to the TV, and the interface should include nine channel buttons, volume buttons, subtitle buttons, and switches for controlling features like color contrast and sharpness. The interface designer emphasized the importance of a visually appealing remote, suggesting colorful buttons in fun shapes like stars. The idea of speech recognition was also brought up. The user interface team discussed the implementation of buttons and LCD screens, as well as the use of speech recognition systems. Marketing suggested focusing on a fancy look and targeting a young user group. The user interface team presented two types of remotes: engineering-centered ones with extensive functionality and user-centered ones focused on ease of use. The team also discussed the integration of the corporate image into the remote design and made suggestions for improving the layout and ergonomic design of the remote.

Summarize the team's discussion and preferences regarding User Interface's presentation on different types of interface design slides.

Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? kirsty williams am: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done—some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification—there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement—and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. julie morgan am: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? kirsty williams am: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. julie morgan am: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? kirsty williams am: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification—I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. julie morgan am: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—? kirsty williams am: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? kirsty williams am: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. andrew clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. lynne neagle am: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian. sian gwenllian am: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? kirsty williams am: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates— sian gwenllian am: Ten years? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. sian gwenllian am: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? kirsty williams am: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. sian gwenllian am: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? kirsty williams am: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. sian gwenllian am: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. kirsty williams am: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. lynne neagle am: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? kirsty williams am: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one— lynne neagle am: She wasn't. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? kirsty williams am: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. dawn bowden am: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. dawn bowden am: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. kirsty williams am: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well. lynne neagle am: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. suzy davies am: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now—that some students were being told, 'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.' I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said, 'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my "Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said, 'Under no circumstances are you to do that—no, that's not allowed.' This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be— suzy davies am: It's gaming. kirsty williams am: —denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. hefin david am: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that? kirsty williams am: I don't agree. hefin david am: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. kirsty williams am: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University— hefin david am: Who has influence over students. And, actually, Cardiff University—indeed, all Welsh universities—accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. hefin david am: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. kirsty williams am: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer—and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge—they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? kirsty williams am: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. hefin david am: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? kirsty williams am: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand—not via my officials, but first-hand—from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors—last year—with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. lynne neagle am: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail— hefin david am: No, I've said that. lynne neagle am: —we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. kirsty williams am: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. hefin david am: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? kirsty williams am: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics—some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative—that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities— hefin david am: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. What I’m saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. And therefore, I think it is a myth—I would go as far as to say that it’s a myth—that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. andrew clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. andrew clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don’t actually make it part of their offer. So, we’re still on a journey—that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. So, it isn’t just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. When it was a 'yes'/'no' qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. kirsty williams am: And that’s the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? kirsty williams am: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don’t regard it as a detriment to students. Siân wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. sian gwenllian am: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? hefin david am: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? sian gwenllian am: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. kirsty williams am: Well, it’s a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer—Welsh universities. sian gwenllian am: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can’t actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. kirsty williams am: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. suzy davies am: So, just briefly, you’ve said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it’s valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from—I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? kirsty williams am: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across—that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had—and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work—and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project—research based—qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work—those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. suzy davies am: Can I just add—? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities—which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. suzy davies am: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? kirsty williams am: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. suzy davies am: But not an obligation—that's the bit I'm trying to get at. kirsty williams am: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? kirsty williams am: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? kirsty williams am: Not at this stage. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well— suzy davies am: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say, 'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.' What we're saying is, 'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.' suzy davies am: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? kirsty williams am: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money—I think it was about £5 million that was going to the consortia in-year—will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? kirsty williams am: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. suzy davies am: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. kirsty williams am: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what . It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. kevin palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call 'the middle tier' to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning—so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. suzy davies am: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. lynne neagle am: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? kirsty williams am: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification—. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. lynne neagle am: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? kirsty williams am: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? kirsty williams am: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. janet finch-saunders am: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? kirsty williams am: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? kirsty williams am: Well, I don't think it's—. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. janet finch-saunders am: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. kirsty williams am: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? kirsty williams am: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. sian gwenllian am: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. lynne neagle am: Okay, you don't want to— suzy davies am: By all means you ask the others I had. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. kirsty williams am: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. suzy davies am: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? kirsty williams am: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? kirsty williams am: Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. lynne neagle am: What's a MOOC? [Laughter.] kirsty williams am: So, it is an online—a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? lynne neagle am: Okay. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? kirsty williams am: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. I think it's an individual case, this one— lynne neagle am: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? , that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. andrew clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? suzy davies am: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. hefin david am: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? lynne neagle am: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs— hefin david am: And it was obviously unanimous— lynne neagle am: —and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>I've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Siân today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas? kirsty williams am: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could—? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. steve davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently—I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. kirsty williams am: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs. steve davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap. hefin david am: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents? kirsty williams am: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying, 'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.' So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. suzy davies am: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services' care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need. kirsty williams am: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate— kirsty williams am: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange, 'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.' My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. helen mary jones am: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group—and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the—. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. helen mary jones am: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad—. janet finch-saunders am: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses. lynne neagle am: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. dawn bowden am: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying, 'Well, what's going to happen to that?' Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff? steve davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing. dawn bowden am: So, would you anticipate—again, I know this is all a bit 'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings? janet finch-saunders am: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible.]—mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next—? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work? lynne neagle am: We've covered that, Janet. kirsty williams am: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. lynne neagle am: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think—? janet finch-saunders am: No, I heard that loud and clear. lynne neagle am: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. dawn bowden am: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. steve davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we’ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school. It’s likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that’s the right thing to do? kirsty williams am: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about. steve davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future. dawn bowden am: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again? kirsty williams am: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage? kirsty williams am: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses—people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates. hefin david am: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents' point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care. kirsty williams am: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially—and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan. janet finch-saunders am: Is this the Cylch question? lynne neagle am: Yes, please. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns—[Interruption.] lynne neagle am: We've lost Janet. kirsty williams am: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual—[Inaudible.]— around service-level agreements are off. [Laughter.] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. lynne neagle am: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams? kirsty williams am: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next. janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them? kirsty williams am: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England. kirsty williams am: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me— because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess? kirsty williams am: With regard to AS-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board—and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you. suzy davies am: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments? kirsty williams am: Well, potentially, as I said. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades. lynne neagle am: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis? kirsty williams am: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw? huw morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide? kirsty williams am: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector. suzy davies am: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet. kirsty williams am: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add. huw morris: No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis. huw morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio. helen mary jones am: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore? kirsty williams am: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault. helen mary jones am: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention? kirsty williams am: Yes. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment? kirsty williams am: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration. helen mary jones am: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home— kirsty williams am: It is their home. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need? kirsty williams am: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that. huw morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed? huw morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone? kirsty williams am: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them. helen mary jones am: Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time? kirsty williams am: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: Because it's not safe. kirsty williams am: —because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.' lynne neagle am: Okay, thank you. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point? kirsty williams am: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't— hefin david am: Can we have a clear line on that? kirsty williams am: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation. suzy davies am: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be? kirsty williams am: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely? kirsty williams am: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. kirsty williams am: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion. kirsty williams am: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago. suzy davies am: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked. kirsty williams am: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>I'm very pleased to welcome Meilyr Rowlands, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, Estyn; Jassa Scott, strategic director at Estyn; and Claire Morgan, strategic director at Estyn. Thank you for the papers upfront, in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system, looking forward, of course is the curriculum and the change that that's bringing. How can we be sure that, during this period of change, standards don't slip? And also, from the point of view of scrutiny, will we be back in a situation where we're being told, 'You can't compare one set of results against the previous year's results, because of the nature of the change'? meilyr rowlands: Bore da, bawb. I think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it, particularly if those changes were made too quickly. I think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now, so I think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping. So, overall, I think we can be fairly confident that standards won't slip during this period of preparation. suzy davies am: Can I just ask: is that based on your evidence around primary schools, where the sort of ethos that we've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase? meilyr rowlands: The track record I'm talking about is across the board, so it's very difficult to think of anything that's actually got worse over the last three or four years, so it's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping. It might not be improving as quickly as we would like, but the purpose of major curriculum and, more generally, educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement. A large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work, as well as doing the day job. I think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform, and engagement with wider education reform, is to be congratulated. So, I think going forward, we must make sure that that is continued; that this process that's called co-construction—engaging with the profession, making sure that they're behind all the changes—continues. I think that's what's going to make sure that we don't see any slippage. suzy davies am: Okay, and on that point of comparing year on year, we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then? meilyr rowlands: Yes, certainly, in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work, yes. Can I just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools, which I've just mentioned previously, and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well? Because we're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds, sometimes that's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up, but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that, overall, secondary schools are in deficit. Is there a correlation between those two positions, that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools? meilyr rowlands: I think it's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum. With any sort of education reform, you've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand, and on the other hand you need time to pilot things, to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth. suzy davies am: Sorry, that could be difficult to do if a school doesn't have money to create that space, couldn't it? meilyr rowlands: Yes. One, about the difference between primary and secondary: I think what I'm saying there is I think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary, but it's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference. In terms of funding, probably everyone in this room, and certainly me included, would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that. But, you know, that is a decision for local and central Government to decide how much they can afford. suzy davies am: Can I ask, just to keep it on track, are you finding that that's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum? meilyr rowlands: I don't think you can make that straightforward correlation. But if you do look at surpluses and reserves, they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time, but they have declined for secondary schools. So, I think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because, overall, they're in deficit now. The other thing that's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage. So, you know, if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant, it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school. But also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they're looking at these financial and staffing issues. The final question from me is: there's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment, particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well. How do you think we can improve that? What impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this? meilyr rowlands: Obviously, the most important resource for the education system is the teachers. So, it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit. And we're not seeing them hit, if I remember correctly, even in primary, let alone secondary. So, there is a challenge, and I think we've got to look at this in the round. We've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this. So, long term, we've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into. I think there's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda, that people need to take that seriously, and there's work going on regarding the workload issue. suzy davies am: I suppose what I'm coming to, and I will finish with this, Chair, is, we're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they've barely got time for lunch as it is. Do you think that's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this, albeit that there'll be a phasing in? meilyr rowlands: Yes. I think the new curriculum, one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession. And one of the reasons why teaching maybe hasn't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum, and now they've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach. I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching, so I welcome some of the part-time Open University courses, for example. So, there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary, particularly in Welsh-medium, where there's a shortage. Just before going on to that, just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training. Has Estyn done any themed work on that particular issue, or do you intend to do anything on that? Also, looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England, for example; do we need, perhaps, to think about financial incentives, not just for specific subjects, but for going to schools where there are particular issues, perhaps? meilyr rowlands: Well, yes, there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers. I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently, and we've had the discussion with him. Now, we are, of course, looking at initial teacher training, but we haven't looked at the first couple of years for many a year. And for your information, I've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue, and that work will be published in due course. sian gwenllian am: In terms of the secondary schools, that’s where the problem lies, isn’t it, rather than the primary sector. How much of a concern is it to you that children’s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50, and that, indeed, over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under Estyn review? How much of a concern is that to you? meilyr rowlands: Well, it is of concern to us, of course. I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales, because there are a number of good things we can report also. The primary sector, the special sector, post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well, and I think a story that's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving. We have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year, and we've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools, which is also a sector—. But, you're right, of course, the biggest concern for the system, I would say, is secondary schools, and that is an issue of leadership, and also of the quality of the teaching and learning. So, I believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution, as I mentioned previously, and also a short-term solution to this problem. In the long term, to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well, that’s the main aim of the new curriculum. It will take time, as we mentioned previously; it will take longer in secondary schools, and that's for a number of reasons, and I have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports. It’s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children, and that’s an important factor. That’s one of the reasons why I believe it’s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school’s life and take an interest in the education of their children. We also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools’ mindsets, and, in some cases, perhaps excessively so. So, we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum, and, of course, Qualifications Wales is carrying out that work currently. In primary schools, for example, the greatest and most obvious difference, I would say, is that you’ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year, and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time, getting to know the child and, possibly, the family very well. It’s much more complicated for secondary school to do that; there have to be systems put in place for that. But in the short term, what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support, and that is why I am glad and do welcome what's being piloted currently, which is a system of supporting these schools, the multi-agency approach, that is. So, that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago. sian gwenllian am: You said previously that it's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough. Are there signs that that's improving? meilyr rowlands: Well, one of the things that's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme, that is, the schools that we have identified, through inspections, as needing to be put in a statutory category. So, there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern. I believe that it's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet. I think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that, and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents, staff leaving, a change in leadership. We use surveys with the children, for instance, and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties. So, there's not one single criteria alone that will tell you, 'This is a school that is at risk of causing concern', but taken together, having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools, I believe. Well, we'll be coming on to that middle tier later on, and perhaps that's where the problem lies, namely that if there isn't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves, perhaps that's where the focus needs to be. meilyr rowlands: I would say that it's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem. The greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support, where all the agencies that support these schools are working together. sian gwenllian am: Well, how long does it take, therefore, for a school to move from an improvement category, in terms of special measures, to be escalated then? Because one sees sometimes that there's an excellent school, and within five years' time, it's in the red. meilyr rowlands: Well, that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red. claire morgan: On average, secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years, on average. With primary schools, of course, it's much shorter because the issues are far less complex; it's easier to bring about improvements in teaching. When you've got large numbers of staff, you've got large secondary schools, it takes time to actually bring about those improvements, but it is a long time, just over two years, when you think that some pupils, maybe in key stage 4 for the two years—. Certainly, we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker, and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step. They focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest, and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is: ourselves, the regions, local authorities, the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement. So, it's getting an agreement on what the issues are, and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication, but that we support the school in the areas they need more support. But, as Meilyr already said, there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern. And just finally from me, for the time being at least, the financial situation; we've spoken about that already this morning. If funding was injected into the system tomorrow, say, what would you spend it on? What aspects would benefit from that additional funding? meilyr rowlands: Were you asking about something specific there? sian gwenllian am: In the schools themselves, if you were a school leader, what would you— meilyr rowlands: Oh, if I were a school leader. How would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school? meilyr rowlands: It's difficult to make that decision, because every school is different. It is important, of course, that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves. But, certainly, in the short term, the type of thing I would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum. The schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they've had plenty of time to think about this. So, it's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in Wales to start to think. Because I think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools. But that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and, in that thinking, to contact the community, to talk to their children as well, to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum, because it's up to every school. Although the new curriculum sets a framework, it is up to each and every school to decide what they're going to teach, and what they're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century. Therefore, to give you a somewhat superficial answer, I would be setting time aside for the training of teachers. jassa scott: Can I just add one thing there? I think what we've seen over the years recently is that local authorities, to some extent, have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools, but the effect of that is that we've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services; for example, those services that support well-being, that promote attendance, and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools. So, I think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils, and to improve themselves. So, I think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority, if funding is available, it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed. lynne neagle am: Just before we move on to the middle tier, if I can just ask about the quality of teaching? There's been a consistent message from Estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in Wales. The Government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area, yet it's still an issue again in your annual report. What is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching? meilyr rowlands: I think, in nearly all the elements of our framework, the picture is fairly similar. So, in terms of quality of teaching, we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary. In secondary, it's more or less level; we haven't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse. One of the things that's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching. It is about the teaching and learning; those are two sides of the same coin, if you like. From the perspective of the pupil, it's the learning; from the perspective of the teacher, it's the teaching. I think there's no doubt and I think there's general agreement that, in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning—. I think it was Einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing, you'll get the same result. So, you're going to have to change something, and what's changing is the curriculum. And that's exactly what all schools need to do now: to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school, in their particular circumstances, in the context of their particular children. How can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school? lynne neagle am: Siân. sian gwenllian am: It does cause one concern, because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector, and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under Estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures, we're talking about half of the schools almost, and no improvement in the teaching quality in general. So, there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation, and then there's a new curriculum that comes in. I see the opportunities, but these schools that are doing well are going to go, 'Wow, up there', but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools. Isn't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that's allocated? You talked about releasing teachers for training, but perhaps it's in those particular schools that we need to focus. meilyr rowlands: I do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more. But then, with regard to the other schools, in a way, there are two very broad categories, which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve—. And I believe that the new curriculum and the general support that's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools. But you're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support, and they're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult, because they'll also have many other problems. And you're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in Wales, so that percentage is relatively small, the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support. I don't think it's enormous, but certainly there's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support. The Minister recently told the committee that a number of recent Estyn inspections of local authorities' education services have been disappointing. Do you agree? That, of course, is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle. But of those nine we've put three into category—we've identified them as causing concern—and they're Pembrokeshire, Powys and Wrexham. So, we've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning, and I think that, again, is a factor in those local authorities. You say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole. Which local authorities are these—you've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle? meilyr rowlands: I think you're taking about three secondary schools in a category in Pembrokeshire, Wrexham and Torfaen. So, we've inspected Pembrokeshire and Wrexham already, but we haven't inspected Torfaen yet. And we've inspected Powys and Newport, but we haven't inspected Gwynedd yet. So, in answer to your question: we've inspected most of those, but not all of them. What is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement? Does this vary across the different regions? meilyr rowlands: It certainly does vary, but I'll ask Jassa to go into more detail. jassa scott: We haven't directly inspected the regional consortia since—I think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them. But I think, over the last three years, we do feel that they've improved their knowledge. So, they did take a little while to embed, and I think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. But, more recently, they've improved their knowledge of individual schools' strengths and areas for improvement, and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools, and particularly schools causing concern. But obviously, as we've been talking about this morning, there's still work to do. I think they've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy, but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker. Even though we've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there, we haven't seen quite the focus that we've seen on other areas. I think for schools causing concern, what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection, so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they're not always focused, in those schools causing concern, on improving teaching and learning, so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there. I think, generally, their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools, and I think sometimes that's because they're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists, to support with secondary, or perhaps they don't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region. So, they're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice, to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools. We will be, over the next year, looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work. But that's one of the areas we've discussed, about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth. janet finch-saunders am: So, what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia, and how robust are those inspections? What areas do you cover? jassa scott: Well, regional consortia aren't actually statutory entities at the moment, and we don't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia. So, on each of our local authority inspections, there will be, usually, an area that we're looking at that relates to school improvement, and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned. What we've agreed with Welsh Government is that, over the next few years, we will take a thematic approach. So, the first area that we've said is that we'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform, and report on that. So, that will report specifically on the different ones, but it wouldn't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time. janet finch-saunders am: Should they be on a statutory footing? jassa scott: Well, I think that's something to be discussed over the next few years. There's, obviously, local government legislation that has been debated recently, which has the potential to create corporate joint committees, and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there. So, there may be an opportunity, if that's created, to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that. I think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and, ultimately, it's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that's the important bit, I think, ultimately, to see the impact there. So, we are looking at them in that way, and then taking that thematic approach, but we'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years. And what are Estyn's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid Wales? Would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium, Education through Regional Work, rather than each local authority employing their own, as is the case at present? meilyr rowlands: If I can just go back to the last question as well, what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014, I think, for about three years. So, then, we spent time looking at regions, basically, because we didn't have the resource to do both at the same time. So, we're in negotiation with Welsh Government currently, so that, going forward, we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time. If regions become statutory entities, that would be in legislation, and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them, which we don't currently have. But, as Jassa said, currently, what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that. In terms of ERW, they were the region that, at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections, we were still monitoring. So, for example, the chair of the joint committee has resigned, the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership. Some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left. The budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled. So, we are particularly worried about ERW, and, because of that, we will be going in to visit them in April—next month—and we'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward. jassa scott: Yes, I think you asked a specific question about, you know, which is better. I think our view has been that, generally, the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services, particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment. We felt last summer, when we went to ERW, that they'd managed to reach the best possible model, given the constraint they've placed, collectively, on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally, through the local authorities, and have some central capacity. So, we felt that, given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally, enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable. There were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as Powys. Unfortunately, as Meilyr has described, some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back, so I think it is a key risk, particularly for some of those authorities you've talked about that are causing concern, such as Powys or Pembrokeshire—that they haven't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern. So, you've got some concerns within school capacity and you've got concerns about local authority capacity, and what you don't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them. So, that's why we're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently. Our understanding is that there's a joint committee meeting of ERW on 19 March, so, hopefully, after that point, we'll have a little bit more information about how they're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it's a little bit of an unknown at the moment. meilyr rowlands: You were asking, 'Would it be better for every authority to have their own team?' But, before regions were invented, if you like, we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small. So, you had Cynnal in the north west, you had the Education and School Improvement Service, you had Gwent—so, they naturally did come together in groups, maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions, but they, of their own accord, produced something not very dissimilar to a region. lynne neagle am: Siân, did you have a supplementary? sian gwenllian am: Yes, just on ERW. Does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children? Are the children in south-west and mid Wales affected by this? Are standards decreasing in that part of Wales? meilyr rowlands: Well, it's difficult to say directly, but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area, so, the lack of support at that level, as Jassa was saying, may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties. jassa scott: And it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues. Any reorganisation does take energy out of the system, so it is clear that that time isn't then being spent, perhaps, on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools. So, as Meilyr says, it's not clear, but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing. janet finch-saunders am: What disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW? And I've got to be honest, up in the north, I know that there are concerns about regional consortia, and when local authorities are under pressure financially, it questions, sometimes, the value of regional consortia. So, what disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW? meilyr rowlands: I think we've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own. In general terms, you can't say that any particular authority couldn't, maybe, put things together in such a way that it's effective. Also, it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium, if one withdraws. I don't know whether, Jassa, you've got anything to add to the general points we've made. jassa scott: I think, what you've alluded to there, it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we've got for supporting school improvement at a time where Welsh Government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we've talked about. So, I think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally. And I think it's just what I've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they're confident in where they need to go for support. I should say that we're planning, as part of that visit that we do in April, to survey schools in that region about the support that they're getting, be that from their authority or from the central teams in ERW. That's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously, and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling, really. And then, finally, for me:what involvement has Estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by Professor Dylan Jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier? meilyr rowlands: We've been members of that group right from the beginning. I personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well, and I'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well, and Estyn has given several presentations to that group. The rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room, but it had never been done before, as far as I know. I'm a very firm believer in making those relationships, building those relationships, so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system. We need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we're clear about what each of our roles is. In your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective, that children begin to feel at a very early age that they can't do certain things. I don't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever, it's quite worrying. But what do you think the long-term effect on a child's development has in that respect? claire morgan: It's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings. But in a minority of schools and settings, as you've picked up, children are often introduced to things too early. So, they're introduced to phonics, they're introduced to learning to read, when they're not at that developmental stage. And really, long term, it means the children lose confidence, because if they're introduced to these things too early they don't succeed, they tend to need additional support, and it can give them a negative impression, it can give them negative thoughts about their ability. So, we need to address that, and really it's about— dawn bowden am: Sorry, what sort of age range are we talking about here? claire morgan: These would be children from three to five. dawn bowden am: And is there something, then, in that—and I don't think there's much we can do about that, but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year's difference in their age group, so they're born just before 1 September or just after 1 September? So, that's a huge gap, isn't it, at that point in their development? claire morgan: Yes. dawn bowden am: Is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age? claire morgan: Yes. In terms of reading and literacy skills, we still remain quite low in the Programme for International Student Assessment ratings for reading, and I know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard. What do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy? meilyr rowlands: I think literacy has been, and still is, and still needs to be a top priority. , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education, so it really does need to be a top priority. For example, we've given a lot of attention to writing over the years, and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way, not just short sentences, but having the opportunity to have extended writing, and there's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect. So, it's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books. So, I gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention. I think the other thing I would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase, it's not just for very young children—it's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school. One of the things we have been worried about, and I think there was some reflection of this in PISA, is that there are strengths in reading in Wales. So, PISA, for example, said that children in Wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets, but what they're saying, and they're saying this themselves, is that the love of books is decreasing, and the number of children who read regularly whole books. So, I think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example, to show their own interest in reading, to encourage children to read themselves. dawn bowden am: It's probably a wider societal problem as well, isn't it? I'm thinking about gaming, electronic gaming, computers. I think there is some sort of link with the digital world, and the way people read—the actual technique of reading, is evolving. But I think reading is so important, and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate, in order to get a good job, to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important. We ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future, so we're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition, which will cover some of this next year. Every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do, and we try to support that with a conference. So, that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition. Just one other supplementary on that, I guess, is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so, those that are not staying on to do A-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white. Do we know what the figure is for that? meilyr rowlands: I can't tell you that off the top of my head, but I'm sure that there will be evidence. jassa scott: There has been a shift in that there's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up. In apprenticeships they'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well, so there is an emphasis. I think one of the worrying indications, maybe, that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a GCSE, potentially in English or a literature subject, they don't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well. Could I just move you on—? Sorry— meilyr rowlands: The only thing I would add to that is, I guess, it's quite small, the number of people who don't have basic reading. I think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life, and what we need to do is to develop, in particular, pupils' higher level reading skills. The fact that they can just read isn't the end of the story; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read, and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level. meilyr rowlands: Absolutely, yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things. Can I just move you on, then, to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you're satisfied with the progress in numeracy, because I think we were doing better on the PISA results in maths in Wales than we did previously? So, what are your thoughts on that? meilyr rowlands: I think there is a fairly clear good news story here. PISA shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed, I think, to the new GCSE mathematics numeracy. I think there's much less predictability in that work; you can't approach it in a formulaic way, either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it. It's about applying what you've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum. I think that that GCSE numeracy has built on the work that's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework, which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation. My final question, Chair, is: in your view, to what extent is Wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for PISA? meilyr rowlands: I think that that target is somewhat arbitrary, but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—I think we would expect to see those improvements we've seen in science and in mathematics to continue. The only other thing I would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading, and the reason for that is you don't do a lot mathematics or science in the home. But the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors, more so, maybe, than mathematics and science. So, I think that's another reason why I think a community-school approach is really important. You need to get everybody on board; it's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important. dawn bowden am: Just on numeracy, it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work. So, they're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working, which I thought was quite good. lynne neagle am: We've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils. If I can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years, especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment. I think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things I've noted in the annual report. I think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries, for example, in PISA, we do compare quite well in terms of equity. There's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased, so that we're in a way running to keep still. So, there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap hasn't closed, but that's not to say that schools can't do something about it, and I've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach. I think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning, better teaching and learning, helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately. So, I think improving teaching and learning, and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom. So, that's one approach, and then the other approach, which I've also mentioned earlier, is having a community-focused approach to schools. It's very difficult for children to do well in school if they've got all kinds of things happening in their background. So, it's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them. It's challenging for schools to go down this route, and I think the more help we can give schools to take that approach, the better. They have better engagement from parents, from the families, and that then reflects back on the work of the children. jassa scott: And we've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners, and we'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we'll publish in the next couple of months. So, we've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail. Obviously, I think we've all been to schools where the PDG is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say. But I just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit, because, of course, even though, as you say, there's perhaps more equity in Wales, one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well, and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the United Kingdom. So, whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful, that's one of the reasons—that our better-off children aren't doing as well as perhaps they might do. Is that a concern as well? We don't want this rush to the middle, do we? meilyr rowlands: I think it's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can, absolutely. So, it's not quite the same issue, but we've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well. meilyr rowlands: They're not the same, clearly, because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds. Differentiation is a challenge for schools, but it's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can. So, in things like PISA, in terms of reading, for example, we can't just say it's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve. And I think that's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have, whether they’re more able, whether they're advantaged or whether they're disadvantaged. Pupils' confidence in their school's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that's been a consistent theme as well from your reports. As we mentioned earlier, we do pupil surveys before all our inspections, and across a number of those indicators, like, 'How well does the school listen? Do adults in school care about me? How well does the school deal with bullying?'—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off. Nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence, down to half at key stage 4, as you say. And I think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that: I think one of the factors is that pupils face, sometimes, more challenges as they get older in those teenage years, but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning. And I think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons, in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on. So, they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school, but the pupils don't notice. I think we've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that, at primary school, you would tend to have a go-to adult, which is your teacher. The best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people, but it's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens, because of the way they're operating. We still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support, which we've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports, but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports. And I think I already touched upon the fact that sometimes, when the budget is tight, it can be some of those—they're not peripheral in their importance, but they're not the teacher in the classroom: well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding. So, I think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job, but perhaps they're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment. So, I think there's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally, as they get older. And that might explain some of the difference with primary, where, generally, they're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask. lynne neagle am: So, it's not that secondary schools—because you've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being. jassa scott: I think there's an element that it's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges. And one of the pieces of work we've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences, and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it. So, maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding, but also those staff aren't spending the same amount of time with pupils. So, in terms of getting to know pupils, picking up on signs that they may be struggling, or that there might be concerns—it's much more of a challenge. You've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of  information together to actually mean that you can target support where it's needed. Obviously, we've had one case in north Wales, in an independent school, where there were serious concerns. What's that done to your desire to monitor and check what's going on in these independent schools? Are they regulated sufficiently? jassa scott: I'll pick up on that as well. So, some have boarding provision, and where they have boarding provision, Care Inspectorate Wales would look at the boarding side of it, we'd look at the educational side of it. There are others where they may have a linked children's home, which can be another room in the same house, or it can be a number of miles away, and similarly there CIW would look at the residential aspects of the care and we'd look at the school. So, I think, there's a focus in the independent school standards regulations, which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration. There is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils, and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant, and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well. What we do find in our inspections is that, overall, we generally find that pupils' well-being develops, they make good progress, and that care, support and guidance that schools give is good. What we mean by that, really, practically, is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem. In special schools, this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour, which may be one of the reasons why they're in that specialist setting. In mainstream independent schools, what we find is that people develop their tenacity, their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way. For example, there was one school where we found that they weren't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services. So, these schools do operate independently by their nature, and their awareness, perhaps, of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes, maybe, there can be more to be done, and I think we've talked to Welsh Government about that. suzy davies am: What's Estyn's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools? jassa scott: I think we do through our inspection guidance, and the independent school standards do refer to Welsh Government guidance—it's something like 'Keeping learners safe', which is a really key document, which supports safeguarding and caring across schools. So, I think the other area is that sometimes we don't have the intelligence about what—. So, for example, if there's been a safeguarding referral from a school, we don't necessarily always get that information, which means that when we do go to inspect, we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity. So, that's something we've raised— lynne neagle am: [Inaudible.]—be brief and brief in answers. Do you mind if I move on to the next question? lynne neagle am: We're going to have to skip those, I'm afraid, and talk to the last set of questions, just because of the time pressures. What role, if any, did Estyn have in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited Wales in late 2019? meilyr rowlands: Well, we were interviewed. Therefore, the three of us had an interview with the OECD officials and we offered evidence to them. And I think that, when the report is published, you will see that the OECD does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports. How significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards? meilyr rowlands: I think that it's very important. It's Claire who has been specifically tasked with that, so I'll ask Claire to speak about it. claire morgan: I think working together with the practitioners, the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach, because we know across Wales there's some excellent practice, but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement. So, this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation, but, more importantly, how they can bring about that improvement. Half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start, and 22 new schools have come on board this year. But we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school, primaries, secondaries, PRUs and special schools. But it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement, that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development. So, we're hoping that this tool—it's still currently in development, but we hope that that will support schools really well. And, with regard to comparison of performance, does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools? meilyr rowlands: Not really, no. I think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for Estyn, but actually it never has been. We look at standards, we look at teaching and learning in the classroom, we look at well-being, we look at care support and guidance, we look at leadership, we look at all of these things, and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom. So, we're quite happy to continue to inspect schools, and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because, although data is useful, and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate, we don't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for your attendance? As usual, you'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in Wales—next steps for 'Mind over matter'. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government regarding teachers' pay and pensions, and paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education from us regarding the school funding review. Can I then propose under Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Great

Kirsty Williams acknowledged the pressure that qualification examinations put on students and expressed the need to guide them in making the right decisions regarding their A-Levels and baccalaureate. Secondary school pupils often feel neglected and it is challenging for schools to provide effective support. During extended closures, it is important for school staff to check in with students through phone or video calls to maintain contact. It is also crucial to promote online resources such as the Meic website to engage young people.

Summarize the discussion on the prioritization and support of mental and emotional health of young people, including the challenges faced by secondary schools and the considerations given during difficult times.

Okay the agenda we're gonna do an opening and then I'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed , then we'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . So , starting off with the last the last one , oh I don't have it here , but we talked about energy , we're gonna use a kinetic battery , we want to use a simple chip , because we're not gonna need a a shuffle , we're gonna need a scroll , we're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that's curved and we're using push buttons with a supplement of an on-screen menu . user interface: Right , do you wanna start ? industrial designer: Right , well we made three different prototypes and I guess we'll start with with this one . it's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and it's easily adaptable to either hand . You can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even there's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . We have our up and down buttons , which are also gonna be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . If you push if you're just pushing these normally , they're the menu buttons , if the volume buttons rather . If we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your T_V_ channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . industrial designer: or shall I present the Martian ? user interface: Okay , project manager: The little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: What We call that one the rhombus , marketing: I could project manager: The v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: the rhombus . user interface: this one is known as the potato , it's industrial designer: user interface: it's a marketing: user interface: how can I present it ? It's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . the red ones are for changing channels , channel up and channel down and that's moves between your favourite channels that you've selected . this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button to select and that's basically it , that's the potato . project manager: on , off ? user interface: that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: Okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: Yeah we turn it off . marketing: Could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your T_V_ off . project manager: industrial designer: And then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . So , that's for your consideration as well , plus it's an interesting talking point to have standing up . industrial designer: We figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if I made the bot the bottom flat . marketing: Sorry , what's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: the menu select button . basically , in terms of making decisions , what we'd need to do is first of all decide on a form which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wanna put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . industrial designer: We were we were thinking that normally we'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we'd have one version that's a bit toned down , project manager: 'kay . Yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: Would Yeah , but we don't want it to look like a kids' toy . I don't know if you picked up your email , but the f the feature that we considered for it not getting lost . Well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it's not just like another piece of technology around your house . industrial designer: So we're we're not thinking that it's gonna be as critical to have the loss marketing: But if it's like under covers or like in a couch you still can't see it . project manager: It's really Would it be very difficult to just have an external device that like I dunno , you tape to your to your T_V_ that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? Do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: I think user interface: I think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: user interface: because if your if your remote's lost it's probably under the settee and in that case you can't you can't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: . user interface: s so it's I'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: That's true , 'kay . user interface: and then I wonder if it's if it's more just a gimmick then anything else . ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: There might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . Okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you're right , they're gonna stick out , but industrial designer: So d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? . marketing: I feel like this is simil or it's sort of what already exists so if we're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you're init I'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it's like comfortable and like not different . I sort of like this one , like I I don't know why , it just it's like small but still sort of like cute looking , I dunno . But I also like the b the side buttons on that one , like I think that's kind of neat . marketing: But I dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: Could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? So then w we wouldn't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: yeah , user interface: Yeah , it's possible , yeah , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: why don't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you've developed some ? marketing: Well do we w like I think we're supposed to have one that we do it for . marketing: That was industrial designer: So where marketing: I was a little vague on what exactly I'm supposed to do , but let me I have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . Do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: No , I actually don't have like a PowerPointy thing , project manager: Okay . project manager: It's kind of like like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: Ooh . project manager: Oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: It's like a deformed foot , I dunno . project manager: There it could have a stem like that , 'cause I do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? I like the idea of the project manager: I think I'm leaning towards the potato . in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: . industrial designer: Well that on the iPod , for example , you just every time you wanna go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: But that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: This is , it's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . Well , as long as we have that in mind as we're designing it still , 'kay . marketing: Okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: The potato ? Are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: Potato . marketing: So basically what we need to do is some of the things that we've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . marketing: So what we sort of wanna do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then I'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . marketing: So we'll just go through them one at a time and we'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we've created conforms to the following criteria . So like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so I'm gonna say it's like a three . marketing: What does each of you project manager: I I kind of think it's it's unique enough that I'd give it a one or a two . Alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? I think it's extremely functional , I'm gonna give it a one . marketing: One ? user interface: I think it's it's functional , it's also pretty basic , so I'll give it a two . I think it'll get everything done , I think it might be a little confusing at first , I don't know if that's gonna be a later one . Well there's some other ones , I will address that , project manager: Okay , then I'm gonna give it a two . Not really , not so much , 'cause we we don't have the L_C_D_ screen , we don't have fancy chip . Other than what it looks like , I dunno if it's really project manager: Well , the kinetic battery . But it project manager: But they'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it's there . marketing: And if it's made of like latex , that whole idea , that's pretty cool . 'Cause it we could've picked a lot of features that would've made it really industrial designer: Yeah . I I would say that it's Yeah , like fancy versus creative it's it's different . Everyone else ? user interface: I'd say it's technologically it's not it's not unique , it's it's just it is just pushbuttons , so I I'd give it a four . marketing: Next , is it easy to use ? Just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: 'kay . we next wanna see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it's made of latex or rubber I it's spongy all the way . user interface: Yeah marketing: Iain , what do you give it ? user interface: I'd I'd give it a one . marketing: Alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: . marketing: Well , is it gonna be yellow ? industrial designer: It it might be , 'cause that's our corporate colour , isn't it ? project manager: That's right , yeah , corporate colour , we didn't keep that in user interface: Yeah . project manager: if we I know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that's more fruity . user interface: Yeah , project manager: and can we have like an R_R_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: If we had a yellow Sure . industrial designer: So marketing: Alright , so I think it it's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so I think it's pretty fruity . industrial designer: That's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: What are what's everyone's numbers ? industrial designer: one . industrial designer: marketing: Alright , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? Remember earlier we discussed that people don't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . I think we really took that into account a lot , so I'm gonna give it a one . marketing: Okay , also we talked earlier about R_S_I_ and wanting to prevent any sort of like Carpal Tunnely kind of thing . Do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? I think I'll give it a two , 'cause I almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gonna happen . project manager: And if it's repetitive movement it is gonna be only four buttons that you're constantly pushing , but marketing: worth the risk , I think . project manager: I like how it fits in the hand though so I I'd go with a two . Because older people that aren't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: . I just got mine , I still haven't read the instruction book and I'm doing okay , so project manager: . industrial designer: The menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but I think if it's one it's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you'll have it afterwards . user interface: I think it it's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: Oh , good point . user interface: once you've , yeah once you'd learned how to use it , I think it is a lot easier . It's a pretty high learning curve , it'll be easy once you've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: Yeah . Alright , also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we're not addressing that at all , so project manager: We we industrial designer: project manager: I think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: Okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? I'm gonna I'm gonna give it a four , 'cause I think that you can still if it's in between somewhere where you can't see it , you're kind of not gonna find it , project manager: industrial designer: I'd say I'd give it a three , I guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . user interface: I'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . marketing: Alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: Simple to use or simple in design ? Do you know ? marketing: I think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we're gonna look at . marketing: it like wants to be simple but it's not like totally totally simple , so I'm gonna give it a two . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: It's hot , it's a mango , come on . marketing: how fashionable can you make a remote ? I think it's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . user interface: industrial designer: I don't think it's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: I do like the little Martian one . marketing: And does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? Just that it would se serve our audience . marketing: Alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we didn't talk about ? project manager: Well we didn't we didn't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let's let's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an R_R_ on it . marketing: And so we're gonna do that , so it will address it , project manager: I have an Excel sheet that we're actually gonna calculate the cost , so let me exit out of this first . marketing: Well don't we need plastic , and industrial designer: No , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . project manager: The wood ? industrial designer: Oh , I guess it was rubber rather than latex . marketing: Do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: Yeah , we're using we're gonna need at least two special colours . marketing: Well , but we know that we're having at least three colours , project manager: So let's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: Well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we'll like we'll have yellow and black . That I thi industrial designer: Or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: I thought that would be under yours . project manager: Maybe the R_R_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: Alright . Oh , we'll do we wa Are the buttons in special colour , special f I didn't get information on project manager: Oh , marketing: Oh wait . So the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: Well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: but if we're making multiple varieties of this is where I'm getting confused . project manager: Okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: Alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it's designed there . project manager: Special form ? They're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: No , project manager: right ? industrial designer: I think they're fine . project manager: Special material ? industrial designer: Material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . Oh do I have to do it per button , do I ? industrial designer: No , I don't think so . project manager: Yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: Okay , let's have our buttons all be one colour . Okay , it's the kinetic battery that's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it's a special colour , industrial designer: Yeah . How did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: What ? industrial designer: It was it was thirteen and now it's fifteen . marketing: We industrial designer: user interface: What was our target price again ? project manager: Twelve point five . Satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . So I guess what we're gonna talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to , you know , use our creativity with the information , how how well I guess I led it , the how well we worked together as a team , the digital pens , the whiteboard . user interface: in that we've achieved almost all of the design goals that we've set industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: I think we could've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: industrial designer: like what's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: industrial designer: things , but given given what we had I think that we did we did really well . marketing: Yeah , if I'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could've taken that into account . industrial designer: Do you think we could user interface: marketing: No , I thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , I dunno . marketing: That was the last one , like I chose not to do a PowerPoint 'cause I didn't think it made sense to , so I liked that I had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . marketing: project manager: I don't think anybody dominated it , which I thought was really good , like each of us was able to like each of you had your information and I I tried to facilitate it without like taking over , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: industrial designer: Should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? I have a little R_R_ . project manager: I know , industrial designer: project manager: let's think of it like a little jingle . industrial designer: marketing: I like the R_R_ , that's gonna be etched in . Hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but it's quite a useful little gadget . What did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: People should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . user interface: industrial designer: That was marketing: Yeah , I didn't even know they existed . industrial designer: I I knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you're always moving your wrist . so , this is the great product kids , I think we've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: Yeah . Make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the the final results and . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: If we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: I'm afraid I would user interface: That's cool . industrial designer: It started because I wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: Break the stem off . industrial designer: Is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a Martian project manager: Oh industrial designer: when I put the user interface: marketing: Kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . user interface: industrial designer: So are are project manager: user interface: That was bound to happen.$ marketing: Oh , sad . Anything else to say ? marketing: Nothing will come up until after our meeting's supposed to be over , project manager: Alright . project manager: I got more master classes , anybody else wanna like take a master's class ? industrial designer: It's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: No the first one that you sent like I didn't realise that it was a joke and I was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: Oh industrial designer: marketing: It's very it's very work relevant , project manager: It is . project manager: Yes definitely industrial designer: Let's see , project manager: I'm very sad that I didn't get any links to the corporate website . industrial designer: what did I get through the corporate website ? It's just inspiration about circuit boards . project manager: I love Excel , marketing: Here , like , basically project manager: it's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it's like inspiration , basically I'm gonna give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . industrial designer: Yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . industrial designer: Now I have all about circuits and chips and transponders and I wrote it all down , because I thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they're like , you don't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: That's like mine it was like , would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen or a multifunction remote control ? And then it didn't have like any kind of table , like awesome , I'm glad they asked that question and didn't report the result . industrial designer: and user interface: We didn't we didn't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: Although I don't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: I yeah . If I'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , I would have probably drawn them up , project manager: . industrial designer: but marketing: 'Cause we weren't like voting on anything and I think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: Yeah , we could've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: project manager: And with and with the PowerPoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on PowerPoint industrial designer: I think if you had a larger group marketing: Get crazy . marketing: And these might've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: . industrial designer: We if we were all gonna stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would've been alright , project manager: project manager: Now when you were creating your prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: we we worked together , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: industrial designer: So it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and I came up with that rhombus shape project manager: industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . user interface: I think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: It's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . user interface: I know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . user interface: But I think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: Yeah , I was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we weren't getting we didn't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: I'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: I found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . project manager: Yeah I think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: you know what , industrial designer: Yeah . And I I felt the first two meetings , that I was coming in with no information , project manager: . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh I don't know , throwing together PowerPoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . project manager: It was interesting what came out like later , like as I was doing the when I was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me , that more points came out from your presentation even . I'm a little I am a little disappointed that we didn't do a something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . that was something like in order to talk about that we would've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: About yeah . marketing: Well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the Excel file , there wasn't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: marketing: There was no way for us to have project manager: Considered the re industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Well marketing: project manager: it's interesting that they industrial designer: I think we really got into it , I got into it as the day went on and I got really like , ooh I'm designing a remote control , I dunno if that's just me , project manager: - , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: It was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they didn't provide us with information to we weren't provided with information to discuss that . project manager: I know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it'll beep , but I but I'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: that I just don't know what it is , but industrial designer: I think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you won't lose them . we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: . industrial designer: 'cause there's only one T_V_ and there's only like three chairs . marketing: That's like saying you're never gonna lose your keys , and I always do , anyway . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: . project manager: It d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: Yeah , or like I guess what the setup of the house is too . industrial designer: But , I am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: I just I guess I've just never lost the remote . industrial designer: You you're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . marketing: I always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: But I guess it's 'cause we don't carry remotes around that much . Maybe with our little robot one we could've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , I am located marketing: industrial designer: Oh a G_P_S_ system , internal G_P_S_ . project manager: Or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it'll go zoom to the T_V_ and stick there . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Just if you like you'd have a remote for your remote , that'll . project manager: Well , but if you could attach them to the T_V_ , then you can . I decided to you know how I sent you the email saying that PowerPoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . project manager: Just gonna make I'm making full minutes , so that it'll include all of the agenda and all that . project manager: But I didn't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: Yeah , I guess How much of your PowerPoint was already done for you , every meeting . Yeah , I didn't even think about adding slides , 'cause I would just get slides with titles on them project manager: . project manager: Well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it wouldn't have a slide for each point . project manager: I know personally when I do PowerPoint , that's what I do and so I had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and I would do your three . marketing: You have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: The slogan on it ? industrial designer: No , no , definitely not . industrial designer: No , I don't think we need to user interface: project manager: I think we just need the the R_R_ , industrial designer: I think the R_ and R_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: Yeah , I was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they didn't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: project manager: Wasn't it interesting that I thought it was interesting that our market marketing expert did not agree with the marketing marketing: Yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: I will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: I just feel like if you're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you wouldn't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . industrial designer: I guess it i it sort of a grey , isn't it ? Yellow and grey , but then the slogan's in blue <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . Then we'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and hopefully we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five Euro . No L_C_D_ , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and also to call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . user interface: Yeah so following our decision to make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: Yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: You can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: We've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station with a banana leaf look and feel and project manager: user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it's not gonna tip over and this is the remote itself , it's kind of it's it's ergonomic , it fits in the hand rather well . We've got the two scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the volume and the one on the right for for the channel and underneath we have the the turbo button which is in like a nice trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: What's the use of the t turbo button already ? user interface: This is when you when you are scrolling the through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: Ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . If you take the banana as such and you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the T_V_ . user interface: So rather than having an extra button for for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as project manager: To navigate it through th through teletext . marketing: But if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: That's right , that's right . marketing: How man user interface: Well then you can you you have like a little number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button to move between the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can marketing: I don't understand it . Can you repeat it ? user interface: Well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . user interface: in the in the base station we have the the button at the front for for calling the the banana . project manager: And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: Actually they do . user interface: That's that's yeah that's that's form and function in the one in the one object . So it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . marketing: user interface: But yeah that's that's just like that's an attractive base station . industrial designer: And for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and the basis station is going to have the input from the power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: Ok industrial designer: And we have put these different colours so that people don't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: Otherwise it's you know a child comes and so marketing: Okay . user interface: I think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: So for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . So user interface: I don't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: Yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: - user interface: If I was gonna place them I'd put them on the on the top here since that's like the black bit project manager: You have enough surface ? You user interface: but yeah I don't I really don't think it's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . project manager: What will be the autonomy ? Roughly ? user interface: The what sorry ? project manager: The autonomy . user interface: What do you mean ? project manager: how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: How long the how long the bit the batteries long . project manager: Yeah , so it's user interface: Yeah but y people don't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wanna leave it on the couch so industrial designer: So when when you are making it on project manager: It's used only when you industrial designer: . Pricing is was a factor so that's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . Looks a bit industrial designer: You want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: Looks a bit puzzled I dunno how to say that . marketing: You the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it's teletext or not industrial designer: Not not many , we we want to keep it simple . So that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: And the volume button will will become industrial designer: It's up to you , means . project manager: Well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: Now that Means let's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . marketing: And what about people who want to use digits ? Butto real buttons ? project manager: Wow . So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they don't care about the buttons any more . Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of stuff ? user interface: It's all automatic . project manager: So your slides are ready ? marketing: S project manager: you're four I think . And each criteria is will be evaluated it's logical criteria so we must users must say i if it's true or is or if it's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . project manager: So to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: Sorry ? project manager: it's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . I think I sh I I could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: marketing: Okay let's let's evaluate if it's fancy or industrial designer: Yeah , it's fancy , according to me . industrial designer: So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: No , wait . user interface: Five , maybe maybe maybe six it's it's I guess it's project manager: Okay , six point five . user interface: I'd give it a six like I'd I think it's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: Six . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . marketing: I would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: Everything ar project manager: for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: You know . marketing: Actually I don't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: Well it's not a universal remote . industrial designer: We marketing: Ah it's not an univer but it's for all kind of T_V_s ? project manager: Yeah . user interface: Well all T_V_s but only T_ only T_V_s I guess . user interface: Obviously there are some outliers so marketing: So four ? project manager: Okay cool ? Cool device . user interface: Which industrial designer: For a T_V_ the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature . We don't have L_C_D_ for it but that we decided we don't want to have . marketing: Sorry , I have them user interface: Alright , now here's the sixty million Dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five Euro question . user interface: What do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end . If i i it depends , if you live in in Switzerland or you live in project manager: Yeah , so the target price is for all Europe , or only for rich countries ? It's more targeting U_K_ or marketing: I don't know . Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or user interface: project manager: So this is selling costs , not production costs . project manager: Aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: Why ? user interface: I don't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . industrial designer: Anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: Well , you know , it's it's handy , it's ergonomic , but it's a banana . project manager: Well , don't forget well , don't for don't forget who we're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: Youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: Yeah but it says I , I would buy this , so . I would buy industrial designer: project manager: Okay you're you're crazy teenager and you like fun things . user interface: S s industrial designer: Or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: Still I I'd say two . I don't think I at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control , really . project manager: Okay so you s you give user interface: I can say , maybe there is a market for it , I dunno . project manager: So what's the new question ? industrial designer: And you have saved it ? marketing: So yeah upload the industrial designer: You'll have to reload . If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . user interface: If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro , if that was like my limit , maybe I would buy it . industrial designer: They're not going to be as And they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: And it yeah this is gonna f you know handy to use . industrial designer: S user interface: Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: I go slightly up . project manager: W we have six , five user interface: I'd give it I'd give it a project manager: Three user interface: I give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: Six ? Six ? project manager: So we are six , five , four industrial designer: Six , five , four . project manager: So and last question , will I change my rem change my remote control from Mando banana . If it was change my remote control of my D_V_D_ player for a Mando banana then I would be more inclined to project manager: It's for the T_V_ . user interface: but 'cause it's really bad but marketing: user interface: I'd say a three . marketing: Who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: Wh wh you said five ? project manager: No no you say five , he is the outlier . marketing: I don't know if it's a user interface: It's not very promising but you know we're not young trendsetters . project manager: Well maybe we should we should have a look globally glob marketing: Because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . user interface: Is there some some formula you're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: no I didn't anything . We can had have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . project manager: Problem with connectors ? marketing: Do you want me to sum user interface: No . marketing: o I think it's not user interface: I think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . We are going to go through so this is the number the number of components we need for this thing . project manager: Okay so let's let's go let's go let go through all the lines . user interface: Well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: Ah you have to ah okay I see so kinetic is really shaking the banana . So we are user interface: Well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we're not using that , we're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: The beep . project manager: So don't we need a industrial designer: And we have sev project manager: Oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . project manager: So industrial designer: So we we'll put some extras , if there is something . user interface: no , it's it's double curved , it's got a c , it's industrial designer: Oh it's got all the directions project manager: No . user interface: Well d yeah it's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: It's got a direction . user interface: it's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they're opposite sides . user interface: This is actually this probably marketing: Actually what's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: Yeah so let's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: Okay . user interface: Well no didn't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: No , it's too no . Well we we'll come back we'll come back and see if we can fit it in . marketing: Actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: It's just industrial designer: And the receiver accepts it and that's it . user interface: It's a recharger thing and project manager: Okay w we didn't think a thought about integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: Well I actually did think about it myself but I thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: Yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . So if we're if we're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . So no L_C_D_ , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: Yep . project manager: well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . No we're not project manager: So user interface: we don't need anything special for the buttons . So first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: Make it plastic instead of rubber . project manager: So mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . project manager: industrial designer: So might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which'll go project manager: Exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: So what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: we'll invest in R_ and D_ . user interface: No it's people in in in Milan and in Paris that are gonna buy it . user interface: project manager: This is what we which you can industrial designer: S Detachable battery . project manager: Exac Well in fact I I did not know I didn't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: If if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . So I don't I don't I don't understand what what they mean by satisfaction and for and for example . user interface: project manager: Should it be more like like a status of of the these meetings in fact . project manager: Yeah well in fact we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: And but I think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a like a focus group with the actual people we're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: We needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: Yeah . project manager: So maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . Because it it would also be interesting to you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . user interface: 'Cause you know if well maybe you don't wanna give all your kids their own remote because they'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a T_V_ for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . So but I think that's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . Any any new ideas we could we could investigate next time ? Dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: Yeah . Because I think it's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: Well just the the the circuit board that we're using inside , marketing: all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: . marketing: For you said if it good for D_V_D_ then I would user interface: And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . I think that's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the T_V_ industrial designer: Integrate . Maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate <doc-sep>project manager: And then we going to do some finance to see if it is feasible user interface: And chocolate ? project manager: and at the end we will we will evaluate ourself as a team . So first , I present as we came to this perfect model , project manager: user interface: and then we'll give some technical specifications . We analysed all the fruits project manager: user interface: and contacted NASA , and made some real good project manager: MASA ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: And making some analysis of different fruits , we choose the ultimate form , ultimate colours , and ultimate smell of it . But we still didn't want to go far from our titanium idea , 'cause it's the most of the moder the m the modern material we can p select . Explanat user interface: Everyone is f really really glad to obtain an s such a r such a device . imitating flatulence] project manager: What do you say ? user interface: N marketing: It says project manager: user interface: You must say it . And so , we have buttons and using L_C_D_ , or like you can use this jog wheel and select which ever option on the L_C_D_ , and then do on and off . Like , m switching the L_C_D_ display if you want to use L_C_D_ , or you don't want you can just use normal button . industrial designer: And then you can see the look L_C_D_ and all the switches . industrial designer: Yeah , or s So , we want to have simple and perfect shapes , like I shown in these phones . That's for the L_C_D_ or for the titanium ? marketing: You mean we can change the colour of th industrial designer: For the L_C_D_ . Even you can configure your colours for its the depending on your mood , or s marketing: Okay . Or project manager: And w wait , wh what are the strawberries for ? Wh wh industrial designer: Huh ? marketing: On the L_C_D_ ? industrial designer: Ah , these are like sensors . industrial designer: So , marketing: industrial designer: after this meeting we'll propose a party for our success for project manager: Ah . project manager: industrial designer: So , any specific questions for project manager: we'll see in the financial part if all gets into user interface: marketing: It makes sense . project manager: W Who is the five fifty millions we first make a party in ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: yeah , let's see if th it's meet the evaluation criterium . You made a very nice prototype , and , I think , we now need altogether to try to evaluate it to see if it makes sense to do it , if it fulfils our what we want to do , and things like that . As you know , before going and creating and producing these strawberry remote control , it's very important to first verify if it makes sense , if we have a chance to sell it . marketing: so we need to evaluate it , try to do it in a constative way , and as much as we can . And then we are just going to have an average , which will give us the value of our remote control . Of course , this can be discussed , but let's let's see , so let's vote . marketing: So , industrial designer: Yeah , what's is really marketing: what do you think , is it fancy ? industrial designer: it's really project manager: I think that fancy , we can say it is fancy . project manager: what do you think ? marketing: What do you think ? user interface: Feel the weight . So marketing: Yeah , o one means it's , yes , a very fancy and seven mean no at all . marketing: So , what about technology ? We have we have speech recognition , we have location based , industrial designer: And we have L_C_D_ . project manager: Yeah , I think it's a marketing: Quite user interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah . industrial designer: still we need to cha marketing: So let's suppose my daughter take it and and through it away . project manager: marketing: Do you think it makes sense that it's going to live again ? , maybe not the prototype . Well , so the question is does it have the minimum requirement of re remote control ? industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: So I don't know . These are the main marketing: it depends on the project manager: And you can do di two sites ? marketing: Okay . Yeah , and you can do on L_C_D_ using these going to scrolling all the option . industrial designer: So if you don't want marketing: So but , for instance , because the L_C_D_ is not touch control , touch screen , you cannot go to channel twenty five directly . user interface: You go you project manager: You c push here the the user interface: So , the basic mode project manager: yeah . marketing: It's much longer than that that being two two five , no ? user interface: No . marketing: But So what do you think for it , usefulness ? industrial designer: So , d Yeah , we need to address we want marketing: Seems to be useful . industrial designer: we only address two main functions here and the other functions will be on L_C_D_ . So project manager: Let me understand well , industrial designer: so project manager: because I'm not sure that's for that this one are b d two dir directional button . And which what is that ? user interface: It's a jog dial for controlling the cursor on the L_C_D_ screen . , see in L_C_D_ , like you will have blocks and you select which one . marketing: Is it the the the effective size and weight that the Is it real size , real weight ? Or Because it industrial designer: Yeah , it's size al almost marketing: Size is going to be that , yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah , because it is marketing: and and industrial designer: The weight will be bit lighter . marketing: because I'm haven't seen the weight so I must not user interface: Okay . marketing: Well , so colour , it seems that we have the several colours for the L_C_D_ . marketing: But , it's not very clear what is the colour of the sh the sh the case . industrial designer: The case is silver titanium , no ? marketing: It's a it's going to be titanium . marketing: So project manager: I it that's industrial designer: So maybe , I think marketing: I think usefulness is m as as I rem just have to remind you that usefulness is much less important than fanciness . industrial designer: Yeah , well marketing: Whether it's fancy or not now , it we have to decide . marketing: But this project manager: I would have m i found more fancy that the fruits are useful . Not like this d We're just giving the fruit for more fanciness and more attraction , too . industrial designer: So , maybe think we can have rubber or some sponges , stuff for strawberries and different colours . industrial designer: So it's marketing: So , it seems we are not so clear on the shape industrial designer: Even project manager: No , I'm not sure why industrial designer: These buttons project manager: if it was like this industrial designer: But it looks really not really good . user interface: And industrial designer: Even we can provide many different colours or different fruits , and project manager: -huh . user interface: but still you got some rubber fruit here , and it's completely completely secure to leave it with children and that . project manager: Okay , so you you you feel like it's something a protection for the remote control . Yeah , we've yeah we have sensors here and so here and here , project manager: Also . marketing: but can we adapt it to each each personal use ? user interface: Sure , sure , just look at it . marketing: That industrial designer: You can marketing: What else can we need ? industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: You Do you think you are gonna be able to do that with ti titanium as well ? project manager: Yeah , it's fudge titanium . Well , I if if this is if you are ready to do that , then I think it deserves a one . So now , it has to fulfil the financial criterium ? marketing: industrial designer: Financi marketing: Ah-ha . user interface: What what's the limit ? project manager: H marketing: It's twelve bucks . user interface: it's it's okay that I don't know , 'cause it's not my field . So the case , which one is it in the end ? industrial designer: Yeah , I think we will go for a single curve , no ? marketing: Let's do a single curve . marketing: It's only curve ? project manager: Oh see , I I think that the the price is this one . marketing: Special colour ? user interface: Well , n Why three ? industrial designer: No , only one , no ? marketing: No because project manager: . marketing: So the L_C_D_ project manager: How many push-button ? industrial designer: Scro project manager: Three or two ? industrial designer: two . That's that's not marketing: That's all ? project manager: We choose this one , and not this one . marketing: is it a scroll wheel and pe push button , th this centre one ? project manager: Or only a scroll-wheel . So project manager: You try to s marketing: You are trying to make make up make us up . industrial designer: It's already project manager: Because how do you do to y select ? industrial designer: Ah . marketing: No , but you select with the two d the other two buttons , project manager: Yeah , you you go on the location with your scroll wheel industrial designer: Y ye marketing: no ? That's true . project manager: You you have all of these , no ? marketing: She's very hard on this . project manager: Not special colours an interest in ? marketing: No , the colour is in the L_C_D_ . project manager: And buttons are not colourised ? They are m industrial designer: marketing: I no . marketing: Well , if I look at what is the most expensive things , it's the L_C_D_ industrial designer: Sample speaker . user interface: Well , as you may know there's some research done in the field of producing energy from mechanical eng , producing electricity from mechanical energy . So , the point is that when you take device and push the button , you produce enough energy project manager: But you don't need a battery ? user interface: to make electricity . project manager: But marketing: So that would project manager: it's like the hand dynamo , no ? industrial designer: Maybe the jog wheel can be like kind of hand marketing: So , but if we select the hand dynamo it's okay , we only industrial designer: is marketing: We we win one . user interface: And ? marketing: And ? project manager: M maybe minus three , no ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: It's not changing , no ? user interface: Why ? industrial designer: It you don't marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah , if Click somewhere , you'll see features . industrial designer: Yeah , that marketing: It Is it ? project manager: Yeah , yeah y industrial designer: marketing: I think we're exceeding now . It's maximum industrial designer: Is really strict ? marketing: We would prefer , project manager: and don't have to Yeah , yeah . marketing: I'm just curious to see this industrial designer: Ho marketing: my address chip on print . , I would say it's the Russian trick , but project manager: Yeah , but is English . When we see the results , there is no doubt there industrial designer: Yeah , it's really project manager: . user interface: M maybe not , huh ? marketing: Team-work , very strong , I would say . marketing: New ideas found ? project manager: So , you say , is there sheep ? marketing: Yeah . A good leader , you know , a good leader is somewhere in the shade and marketing: but then I I mus That's true . user interface: we could forecast it , right ? marketing: To whom ? To the whole our company ? project manager: I'm the one , proposing the celebration . industrial designer: So where we will go now ? project manager: Ah , industrial designer: ye project manager: I think it's finish . marketing: I think the meeting industrial designer: Will go to Italian restaurant , or marketing: The meeting is over at least

The marketing team used the iPod as an example to illustrate the ease of learning the new remote, but the User Interface team disagreed, stating that it would be more difficult due to the menu system and the need to input favorite channels. They rated the learning curve as four out of seven. When discussing whether people would change their remote control, the User Interface team gave a low rating of two out of seven, citing the negative impression of the banana design. However, they acknowledged that if other remotes were unattractive, the product could still have a chance. The basic mode of the remote had two directional buttons for volume and channel control, with additional functions displayed on an LCD screen and a jog dial for cursor control. Overall, the remote was considered easy to use.

Why did the User Interface give four points in ease of learning and change their evaluation criteria from two to four when discussing whether people would buy the remote control? Additionally, why did the group decide to give two points on usefulness during the product evaluation?

I just thought marketing: What was it , problem ? user interface: it didn't work anymore . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting industrial designer: marketing: project manager: for Real Reaction . , and at the end , I , when I finish it off I have some input from a master class I visited . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: The the the the the concepts on we where we must reach a decision on . , the first one is really about the the the the the total package with Well , we have decided to do a do the with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so it won't be as breakable . how how about the energy ? Can you can you reload it or just have batteries which you must exchange ? , the user interface concept . marketing: project manager: At the end , I will take notes and at the end of the minutes will be at the shared folder . marketing: industrial designer: what I did was I reviewed previously used items by two two different age groups . And I just watch what the differences are and I checked , well , what what d do we want , and how can we d aim a at the target group . Well what I found was that a senior project manager: industrial designer: senior citizens marketing: I'm sorry . industrial designer: They , well , they like more the they like the traditional materials , like wood and and such more . , they they they they like luxurious styles , where whereas the young and dynamic , they like a more soft materials . project manager: industrial designer: soft and fluffy and colourful and marketing: industrial designer: Well , shapes are curved and round . project manager: a soft material for a remote control ? industrial designer: No , I'll I'll get to that . industrial designer: But the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery versus kinetic . I figured , well that's ki kinda high-tech , when when you have a remote control that well , when you pick it up , it has power . industrial designer: Well , we could also use a battery , that's a bit marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low , you have to shake it or something ? project manager: user interface: industrial designer: Yeah . Or you can go for both ? user interface: Oh , have you considered the option of using a solar panel ? industrial designer: Yeah , I actually did . industrial designer: and you you could you could use normal light , but you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something . industrial designer: for ultimate b n use of solar panels , you could actually use you could use solar panels , but you ha you'd have to implement them into the remote control , leaving you a bit less space for the interface . industrial designer: So so i i it it wo what's actually I I c just in f I've figured it out that well , seeing that you'll always be within the l distance of T_V_ , and the from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light . industrial designer: But , well you just take up all the space , and you wouldn't have the full amount of power actually used . project manager: But you prefer kinetic ? industrial designer: So I I prefer kinetic because it's well , the costs aren't that much higher , and , ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery . industrial designer: if No , but d Well , you pick it up and you press buttons and y well , you project manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level industrial designer: Yeah , well actually it is . industrial designer: And it it if it isn't , you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again . industrial designer: But , what l what Jarek said , you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves . industrial designer: And so that well , user interface: industrial designer: f furthermore , you you we checked the cases . You ha I you sim you simply add a basic standard model it was kind of square and I figured that's a bit boring . , single curve , it's just a well , you know , it's just a nice curve . industrial designer: That gives you an whole new effec project manager: Dynamic dynamic look ? marketing: . industrial designer: Yeah , that gives you a younger and more high-tech look , I f I figured . marketing: But , are you going to draw it ? industrial designer: What ? user interface: Th th yeah . industrial designer: And then in three-D_ effect you could go user interface: marketing: project manager: industrial designer: So y you you just Yeah , this is a this bit difficulty in marketing: user interface: industrial designer: I didn't take a major in art . So But but you could have a whole new the back back the the the depth , you could you could just play around a bit with . industrial designer: but just a Well , furthermore , well , plastic versus rubber ? You We could choose what what's better , plastic or rubber . project manager: That's the material the younger people want , ain't it ? user interface: industrial designer: Yeah , yeah plastic is Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it , like plastic Your your I usually associate plastic with something that's cheap . Well , we discussed it in a previous meeting , so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_ . And chip set , well if we are going to use traditional buttons , we could go with a simple chip set . But if we decide to go on a n L_C_D_ screen , we would use an we have to use an a advanced chip set . If it isn't manageable budget-wise , we'd have to go over to to sim to simple buttons . So I bet a big company in Korea or Taiwan , like Samsung , can give us a big discount on the chips , so industrial designer: user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , probably , but But yeah , that's that's marketing: So That that shouldn't be a real issue , I think . I'll I'll I'll just add , I put a big summary here , so we could discuss it a bit . what i what are your ideas concerning battery versus kinetic ? marketing: user interface: I think you should use kinetic as a back-up . project manager: industrial designer: Yeah , well Fifty cent user interface: industrial designer: why doesn't And then we have single-curved versus double-curved . industrial designer: rubber ? user interface: isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is or bendable remotes where you've got a . industrial designer: You user interface: Or do you think it industrial designer: I figured it will be m rather than hard user interface: Rubber casing , yeah . industrial designer: because well if you use an d a touch-screen , it's just a casing around it . user interface: is it possible of is it necessary to make a touch-screen square ? It isn't , I think , yeah ? industrial designer: Well , m I don't know . user interface: We're We put fashion in electronics , industrial designer: That isn't user interface: so maybe we can marketing: ? Yeah okay , but if you have a square L_C_D_ screen , and you put a case around it that has like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: So so so what are the opinions ? rubber or plastic ? I I I prefer rubber . project manager: Yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah , you too ? user interface: That's good . user interface: Well , as long a as long as it's it's it's firm , and you don't it's not bendable or something , project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand project manager: Okay . industrial designer: No , that that that that's gonna The the chip set will hold it firm in place , marketing: user interface: Okay . industrial designer: and and and and a L_C_D_ screen also user interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor . marketing: industrial designer: tra traditional versus L_C_D_ , well I figured we we all set on that . Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_ , we we should have the advanced . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: Okay Last week project manager: marketing: I went to Paris and Milan for some trend-watching . In Paris and Milan , we asked different people , differing in age and in income , the amount of money to spend , what they like in design and material nowadays . industrial designer: Well , the Teletubbies sh project manager: marketing: You wer you weren't in Paris ? Okay . Okay , our secondary audience , people above forty a forty years in age , they like the dark traditional colours . Yeah , materials like wood that project manager: Yeah , but wood is not a not a material you which you build a a remote control of . industrial designer: marketing: The that isn't wood anyway , but Okay ? But , that's our secondary audience . project manager: Would you prefer that you can choose the colour of your remote control or marketing: I'll I'll come to that in a second point . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Here , think about removable covers , as seen in mobile telephon telephone market . industrial designer: marketing: Like the Nokia the removable covers , just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one . So to come back to your question , I think and the people in Milan and Paris also think that the rubber should be pretty hard . The phones and the project manager: industrial designer: Well , I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote , so Yeah . project manager: marketing: in my second sheet of personal preferences , we have to reconsider the speech function recognition . project manager: So that you say S_P_S_S_ , and it goes to marketing: Yeah , like something . marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies , like speak speech recognition and stuff . But , we have to keep the cost in in mind , but it user interface: Twelve fifty marketing: Yeah , it it can be very expensive . project manager: Yeah , but you don't use that th games when you watching television , I think . But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call . user interface: When your parents are watching some boring program , you can take the remote and do something else . Well , I do that , but Okay , and project manager: industrial designer: marketing: And third , I stick with it , the log-in functionality with the slogan , take parental control to a new dimension . Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there . So if you press system , that's marketing: user interface: Yeah , well m multiple system options can , maybe five or ten or or one , can fit in . Or maybe even a step further when you want to t have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button . And well , how do do we want to look at f Yeah Does a remote look Well , it's you've gotta hold it in one hand . So the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small , so you can put it in inside your hands . One thing you've gotta keep in mind , keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time . project manager: user interface: know that if you are changing the menu structure here , And well , I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons . But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_ , do not display twenty other options that are possible . Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus , and push plus twenty times . And when you get to n to to ten , ye and want to go back , well you have a problem . Just m most most modern T_V_s , you you press one zero , and it goes to ten . , what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up button ? project manager: user interface: Yeah , yeah w Yeah , I I find I must trying to tell it . marketing: But if you go from two to eight , and you want user interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on on seventeen , and your wife is watching some soap on two marketing: Yeah , and on two . user interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times , well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen . But if you're really switching between two channels , you won't have time to d use the other options . project manager: I think we can discuss a little about the the three kind of revolutionary things Tim came with . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: project manager: There's n not too much decision on that one so I think that parental control is a good function to to put in the remote . marketing: Yeah but What I see How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents , children . marketing: And w when you want to use the parents option , you have to user interface: It it has to be fast . You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings . marketing: Yeah , ok project manager: No but I think most people find it much more important that their children don't watch sex or violence on the television , and wait ten or fifteen seconds longer , so they can finally watch it because of that . You c may use like when there's X_P_ , a simple log-on , d you just push one or two or three . user interface: And if you push parents , then marketing: That then then then you have to go to three-digit log-in . user interface: And if you w you push p children , you don't have to log in , but you can only watch children's channels or marketing: It automatically goes Yeah . Well industrial designer: I don't know if it's worth the time and effort we are going to spend on it . Because well it's a simple function , but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time to programming it . And I'm not sure if it's actually worth investing that much time and effort into it . project manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it , industrial designer: I don't know what project manager: because you Yeah , you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff , and you heard on the news that that he Yeah , they believe that children are influenced by the television , industrial designer: marketing: yeah . But there are a lot of people will below forty who have children in young age who who want to not watch violent or user interface: Yeah . user interface: Just make through a remote as it is , but make an option to insert profiles , project manager: Yeah . user interface: 'cause if my grandad would buy this remote , he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the things to do . project manager: That's a that's a better idea ? marketing: Yeah , w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store , it has to be just simple and plain . marketing: But if you want to install it personally If I got kids , and I could choose between two remote controls . user interface: You're thinking about some channels they cannot see , but well , I I when I think , oh yeah , for the f for all the standard channels , and only for maybe after ten o'clock in the evening violent films and movies will come industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and maybe maybe some some timing will be needed instead of of channels , marketing: Yeah . user interface: because if you're watching , I don't know , you're in the at day , cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night . But maybe there's some option that that t the kind of show view numbers are violent , and that they are blocked out . user interface: Yeah , the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they remotes and edit it all , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: But , well , if you want to I i i if we in incorporate the parental control , let's say we do , and and well whatever , cho child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up for instance . user interface: Well , yeah you could say if parental control is only it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then , but industrial designer: But that Well , I'm not sure because for that to happen , you d you will have to receive a signal from the remote control , so it would , yeah , have to be constant constant signalling . industrial designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an a separate device that that you can program with the remote control . So there's n that's there's besides the remote control , you'll have a separate project manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device . industrial designer: Yeah ? project manager: If we do it , we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile , a parent profile , and a family profile , and otherwise . marketing: And and you know w when you install another device , children can still go up to the T_V_ , p pop open the thing and and and g project manager: Yeah . But industrial designer: But , only difference is the the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control , project manager: industrial designer: and those people wouldn't necessary want it . And what do you guys think of the games in the voice recognition ? I personally think that that becomes too much . user interface: Yeah , well yeah , I project manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality , but user interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition . user interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ , hearing loud noises from the T_V_ , someone screaming one , and you f the channel switches , Yeah . project manager: That would user interface: As long as it's isn't a primary feature of the remote , marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co user interface: but marketing: Yeah , that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources , I think . So that will that that that must be in it , you think ? industrial designer: Yeah , that will be nice . And the parental control are user interface: Optional in project manager: optional ? marketing: Yeah , it's it's in it . But too ma I I think so , but user interface: But how we do it ? project manager: Yeah . user interface: Well , I think also it's a good idea , buts very difficult to incorporate . user interface: Is t some menu function , you choose parental control , and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on . , but will there Like the first idea from You can buy it without and with parental contr control ? Or are we going to put it in and just user interface: marketing: To put user interface: You can put on marketing: Yeah , to put it in always . And you can just s when you buy it , you can select personal preference , parental control on , and the password or something . I I figure if you had two different remotes , you could bo choose one with well a receiver in it . marketing: Yeah ? I thought they were just project manager: Yeah , you yo industrial designer: Yeah , you you have some T_V_s any marketing: a able to receive . user interface: Well , maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs , where the parent says , you cannot watch channel seven , nine , and ten , and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock . industrial designer: Well yeah , you could you could easily you could easily you could easily to the mote control . But , on the T_V_ user interface: Yeah ? marketing: at least my T_V_ , is a is a compartment which you can press . marketing: And there are buttons behind it which you can use , if you d if you don't if you don't have a industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , you could you could you could go like user interface: or make it ourselves very diffic industrial designer: that that would actually make things a lot more easy . industrial designer: I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it , but marketing: Or j Yeah . user interface: marketing: Ah project manager: marketing: I have to consult my legal advisor about it . So I think we have decided on the things that from Janus , the energy , the combination between battery and kinetic . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: The case will be double-curved and rubber , in a fr flashy fruity colour that with cover is removable . project manager: Yeah , but you have that in the user interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure , when you don't use it is simple . You use the user interface: And when you push system properties , entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program . industrial designer: Well yeah , you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself , for the more advanced users . Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button , and some po somebody would just want to watch two channels . project manager: We take it to the other meeting , okay ? I have a little w little chat to do marketing: Okay . project manager: I went to a master class and two things are are can come in handy for us . Knowledge engineering and the fact that that that the idea of knowledge , sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is like that . marketing: project manager: It's it's very hot at the moment , marketing: project manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other marketing: Marketing . marketing: Yeah , that's my function , to industrial designer: project manager: W user interface: marketing: Okay . project manager: What other companies had to also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote , just some Yeah . project manager: they're a ha they're at Yeah , benchmarking , that's the word I saw . marketing: project manager: I couldn't Okay , another thing is there were there there was a survey , and it came out that people like to buy things from a single large provider , instead of those who are partnering with us . So , we must we must bring it as if Real Reaction is is big company , a trustful company , and it has m marketing: How I know a marketing name for our product . project manager: I had a I had another idea to put the whole the whole idea of Real Reaction and a single brand and that kind of thing . marketing: - ? project manager: When you put on remote , you see a kind of a just like when you telephone , you see a little animation . user interface: marketing: Yeah , okay , but it has to be like a split second , because you have to put in a code also and project manager: The user interface: Yeah . But w th the idea from this thing is that we must present it as a as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own . industrial designer: Well , if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen , you can you can have a small logo i at the bottom . user interface: Yeah , I It's ok For f project manager: That's what they said in the master class . user interface: Oh , for the next meeting , right ? industrial designer: marketing: project manager: N , next meeting starts in thirty minutes . marketing: Who who gave you the master class ? project manager: The master class ? marketing: Ronald Betenberg ? project manager: Franz Mehler's . industrial designer: project manager: idea that you the the industrial development centre and user interface will work together on a prototype . user interface: industrial designer: So we're going to work together right now ? user interface: Stay here and project manager: Yeah , the well , dids this what I what I heard . project manager: But keep an eye on your laptops for a real industrial designer: Yeah , I'm not sure if we we Because I saw something about individual actions . project manager: Yeah , but th there's there's still the my instructions that you will work together <doc-sep> our agenda should be that we're opening the meeting , I have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . It's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , which I'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we'll come back to them in a minute after I take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . Right as we remember , I opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting's minutes were reviewed and approved . Sarah , you presented a marketing research report which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . And then Steph did a second presentation that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . Kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half Pence cost . but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . and the new requirements that it for be for T_V_ only and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the corporate design be included . So we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . Alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the T_V_ , but it still should meet those parameters . and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . at that point we agreed that Sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . Sarah , I'm sorry if I misspelled your name , I didn't know whether it was S_A_R_A_ or S_A_R_H_ . marketing: Okay , first thing I want to address is one of the points that Florence brought up , which was current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that Stephanie showed us and and they're twenty to sixty Euros , depending on branding . But I think that with the current price that we're searching for , we're well within , even on the lower end , of the of the market . So , I investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my the theme of what I was to work on was trend watch . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: I'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: I know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , I'm just gonna try to cloak it in really professional terms here . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: And this is all over the catwalks , Paris , Milan , and I'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . And I think if we're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . And f the fancy , and that's exactly the term , I'm I'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . This is interesting , 'cause I think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what's innovative is having it simple with with technologically superior fabrics or , you know , designed in interesting substances . Again , pretty low , it's the top three , but each of the fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . Don't you ? marketing: Y yeah , you know project manager: It sounds like the the covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . I was thinking though that instead of having something like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . marketing: They could be ini initially I thought we could start with kind of fruit that would suit kind of a long hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: They could be interchangeable , they're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . Everyone has a T_V_ remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . marketing: Y yeah , but I think I think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , I'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: So when your dad's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we're gonna watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we're gonna watch this . So this is an idea and I I you know , this is exactly what the research has has shown . industrial designer: Yeah , I I think we're gonna have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . And as for as for well budgeting as well , if we're gonna have lots of different interchangeable components . user interface: Is this to the market ? industrial designer: Yeah , basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . user interface: I was thinking titanium , I was thinking it's just I have been influenced by pictures of iPods , and they're also minimalist and shiny . project manager: Are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: Well it would be a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . So project manager: Perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: Yeah , but it's kind of pointless , isn't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . W w would it be helpful if I described the components a bit , because I think it would give you maybe bring this discussion back to Earth of what we can actually physically do . Or project manager: Do you wanna be next or you want Kate to go next ? user interface: I think possibly it might be more useful if Kate went next . project manager: Okay , we'll move the user interface: industrial designer: user interface: You can even have them in different flavours as well . So that if you just wanna sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: Yeah . marketing: well I was really thinking a lot about the I_ the iMac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: I I I think some of this user interface: industrial designer: you're gonna be a little disappointed with some of the things I have to tell you , but I'm afraid this is the real world . So I've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and I've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they've got , but I'm not sure that it's quite what you want . Now this isn't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control . And this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . We got to have something that pushes the little buttons that talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . So I wan I wanna go through not not just addressing the the the points that you made , Sarah , but doing my presentation in the order I wrote it . marketing: industrial designer: we can have your bog standard double double A_ batteries in a replaceable little compartment . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which I think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is doesn't quite go with the the fruit and veg . industrial designer: one that one that I think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: Remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: . You have to it means that if it's sitting there for a long time it probably won't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it'll work . industrial designer: Now I'm afraid this is the options we've got on on the case . user interface: industrial designer: and the nearest we've got to st to spongy there I guess is rubber , but I'm gonna come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but I think if we wanna use standard components , we're gonna have difficulty with anything much beyond that . industrial designer: Okay , what does the interface look like ? well push button , that's that's the one we're all familiar with . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . you can have multiple scroll buttons , this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but it's it the technology is there . And we can also incorporate an L_C_D_ display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . the electronics that actually makes the device work , we've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . If you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that's what you need if you want the L_C_D_ display . Now I don't know what that is , but I think they think it's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . ou our real expertise is in push buttons , I have to say , but maybe you think that's old technology . We can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . Or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , I think it , won't necessarily l look like a pineapple , but that may or may not be a good thing . but it could have an L_C_D_ screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company's new development of the sample sensor and speaker . industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve Euros fifty ? industrial designer: I'm afraid I don't have that information available . Because , you know what , I'm being quite serious when I say that that the things I mentioned are hot . marketing: You know , if if what you're telling me is is some of these things aren't just f aren't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , Blackberry . user interface: Bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: That's user interface: so what I had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . user interface: But I I don't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the Real Reaction company . But yeah , industrial designer: We we could we could do a double curved rubber one , marketing: I'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow say a banana , but unfortunately I see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: Yeah . user interface: Shall we wait 'til I've 'til I've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . industrial designer: user interface: F_N_ and F_ eight , did you say ? project manager: Yes . marketing: Oh I think Florence resolved it by industrial designer: I If you do F_ F_N_ F_ eight again , it's it'll project manager: Do it again . project manager: Keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: I think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . I don't actually have a huge amount of different information then what Kate says , project manager: Okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including M_P_ three players , like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . user interface: having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . I've been especially interested in the iPod style scroll wheel , which Well , I couldn't find a the picture of the iPod w only linked to a web browser , so I couldn't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . user interface: So I was thinking that a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . Like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it'll show you what's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what's on the other channels while you're watching the same channel on the screen . user interface: which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . So project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , not fancy but not totally minimalist , just pretty simple plastic , probably , I was thinking , yellow and black , just because that's the company's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the iPod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . user interface: And when you've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing on the screen in front of you , it doesn't obscure much of the actual picture you're watching . user interface: And so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing Sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . titanium would be great , but I think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . If we're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then I think titanium's too futuristic . industrial designer: It's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we can't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: then industrial designer: And the the having the the the screen on the television screen I think is a good idea , 'cause otherwise we're we're putting up the price not only for putting building the L_C_D_ in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: Like when when when you've got when you've got the screen there , it doesn't have to be anything fancy , marketing: It's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wanna change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that's on at the moment . But as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . And I quite like it , 'cause it's just smooth and hand-held and it's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . industrial designer: Do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: I I was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a I can't quite d describe it . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . marketing: user interface: Really we'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: Yeah . I think I think that's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . But they all have this this feature of this It's not quite a scroll wheel , but it's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: It's a selection wheel . And then and then Yeah , so either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: marketing: Do you think with project manager: user interface: Might take up your whole living room . marketing: It seems that that you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child's remote . We we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: That also is possible . I'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: Okay . user interface: just something else I need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? This is actually the volume up and down , project manager: user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: user interface: but it's actually the V_ to indicate that it's the volume , so we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . If we're having the scroll wheel , then it's gonna double up as all the other up and down functions . We have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . we need to come up with some specifics of the components , the materials , things like making the decision on the energy and the case and the interface type things . They want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . this is where Kate's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by Kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: The You were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you'd be able to use it as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or keep replacing the batteries . or solar that you'd have difficulty with it if it's a dark day , that it'll die on you , and no way to do it . project manager: so what's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: Oh unfortunately I don't have costing information . industrial designer: I i in terms of workability , I I think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: 'kay . project manager: What's the feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: I've used kinetic in terms of watches and it's very very handy , you don't even notice that it's there . Sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: It's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: as , you know , user interface: 'Cause it's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just gotta keep it moving . user interface: isn't it ? It's like yeah , project manager: So the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it's at all possible . marketing: Be user interface: But it does depend how much how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . industrial designer: 'cause I'm conscious that watching T_V_ can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: But I could market that as a as a a I was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . industrial designer: Oh right , okay , project manager: the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: and I would certainly recommend it , I think , because I'm not sure I have an alternative . user interface: project manager: What about the ca industrial designer: I i it it's just the way that the the the th the way it's ac it's actually built project manager: yeah . what about the case ? I think they're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and I think we've discussed not having titanium . What's the pleasure ? industrial designer: Well if if Sarah's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it's marketing: That's exactly what I was thinking . project manager: What about you ? user interface: Do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy Yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing's spongy , but actually you're not damaging anything by squeezing it . user interface: Because you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: I'd I'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that's actually possible , but I agree , it's sounds like a nice idea if it is . Well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wanna stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: . industrial designer: I should I should r marketing: I su project manager: I'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: Then I'll just say I support either from a marketing point of view I support either decision that the designers make on that . No a scroll Well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: Which I think technically is just push button and I'd certainly support that that user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: I'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it's something that we're an ex the company's an expert on . industrial designer: project manager: And they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as I can . industrial designer: You know , I think the the company's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately <doc-sep>project manager: in the last meeting the marketing manager had presented her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market this this product at the within the budget that was given . In addition to that to make it sell , of course , the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that's a very important fact , 'cause if they say , well , I go home and think about it , that won't work . project manager: Our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . If too many buttons are pressed , child lock and maybe a display clock so that people could you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . So the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder for the for the item . project manager: interface designer has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . marketing: project manager: And even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite program on th right from the remote . project manager: are we all in agreement that that's about what we discussed last time ? Okay . And I don't know whether the order matters much , I don't I don't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: Okay , I can start first . user interface: Now as an interface designer , I would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . This messages could be switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: Nine what ? Nine channel switches ? user interface: Pardon me ? project manager: Nine channel switches ? Is Yeah . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you don't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . Then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on v eh scrolling the channels one by one . user interface: Then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . user interface: Then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . For example , if you are watching a French program and you would like to have a subtitles in English , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see the the subtitles on the screen . user interface: Then there should d there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . Suddenly if if if viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he doesn't want to switch off the T_V_ , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can while talking he can watch the T_V_ . So a remote can be th can be designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , th now the the yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . user interface: So the T_V_ will have some recogniser which will recognise the user's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . user interface: Then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . user interface: So sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . Yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . marketing: user interface: And this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for T_V_ , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for V_C_R_ , D_V_D_s and audio . project manager: user interface: Can you go on to the next slide ? Yeah , now this is an interface for a chil for a remote which a child can use . user interface: this is user-friendly , it's very attractive and children can use it as well as they can play with it . user interface: And this this child interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . Now this is a big over-sized remote which cannot be misplaced or it's impossible to misplace . user interface: project manager: user interface: So this is No this is a very big , you cannot misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: So this is a jumbo universal remote control and it's impossible to im misplace or lose . And the personal preference would be a spe to incorporate speech recognisers which will respond to user's voice for a particular function . any comments on her presentation ? marketing: Well , looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . I don't think that we can get The T-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , I think it's just funny . marketing: I don't think that's gonna be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . user interface: project manager: No , I think the these are her presentations , but as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: Yeah . project manager: but if I just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . industrial designer: this time I'm I'm going to concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: industrial designer: the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it's like it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just , you know , if you if it falls down , then it doesn't break . industrial designer: yeah , and also using of colouring compon components like if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so we have to use some colouring compone compone components . marketing: industrial designer: which we can use a highly sophisticated one because it's like the it's like the heart of the remote controller . If it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be like the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . Suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should be able to re resist the temperature highs and high temperatures and low temperatures . And the other component we should we have in the remote controller is a resistor which is like i it is very very much important for the electricity flow through through through the remote controller and also a capacitor which is a b which is a m I think it's it's like a battery , capacitor . industrial designer: a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this technical electri electronic compons components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . A battery , I would like to suggest one thing if we if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it can't l it can't charge much . Then also we can If it is a rechargeable one , then people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . Suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: It pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . Suppose the user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the L_E_D_ which translates the signal into infrared light . It will amplify the signal and it will send it to the L_E_D_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . The sensor on the T_V_ can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will it will know which what what action it has to do . When you look at the remote controller it's it's it this is a normal remote controller . And if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: industrial designer: and also a capac a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator yeah , and di and a diode transistor . industrial designer: The electronic components all of the electronic components have all those things like a chip and d diode transistors an Yeah , di can y you can see the T_A_ double one eight three five labelled chip . industrial designer: you can also see the the green two green things are these are they are they are resistors , user interface: industrial designer: and just beside that you can see a transistor , and a cylinder shape , that one is a capacitor . Actually , building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty easy and also it's a it's a l l inexpensive . it's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because when you when you are building some circuits some circuits and also wires , it's it's better to go for printing , because you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it's just printing , nothing like , you know , you don't need to use wires and all . So th that green thing is a circuit board , and also you can see there are b s like access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , integrated circuit . And like we have designed before we have seen some few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . industrial designer: and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious hard dynamo , a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . Like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we can't use . and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular re or an advanced chip on the print , also infra it includes the infrared se sender . project manager: Any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: No , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , which which we used to do before ten ten years before , I think . industrial designer: Now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . project manager: We don't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: alright , my method is I'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wanna see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so I've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . And then when I'm out in people's houses or at meetings or anything like that , I try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it's convenient in the conversation I ask about it . They don't want to have to squint at small print , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want as few buttons as possible , and they don't care for the mode thing . and our preference is , as far as I'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . Ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their Christmas item . If we try to tell people it has too many great features , the consumer just gets confused and we don't get anywhere . So we've gotta narrow our selection down to li two things , I think , that we gonna say are really great about our our our new product . They are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . project manager: And so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: You wanna try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: Y user interface: yes , I would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . marketing: So speech recognition is most important as far as you're concerned ? user interface: This could be one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: Yeah , but w marketing: Yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . industrial designer: Yeah , but but I what I'm very very much doubtful how how far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own problems , issues . marketing: Distance problem ? industrial designer: Yeah , it's not distance problem it it's recognising a person's voice , user interface: industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it's everything so i marketing: . project manager: Well , you you teach You have to teach industrial designer: So to get a good recogni recognising system , it's a costly thing , I think . marketing: user interface: No , it's it's , yeah , it it's like your recording of all a question already , and then you're expecting an answer from th For example , you have a T_V_ system , I'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: user interface: I will already record a question like , good morning , industrial designer: Yeah , but Yeah . user interface: So I'll say just good morning and the T_V_ will switch on . project manager: Okay , before we get too far off here , the components of the concept is the energy . project manager: User interface concept , interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: That will be your area I think , right , Jana . user interface: Supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: Well , I think that Yeah , project manager: Oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . marketing: Okay , so why don't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the I_D_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and the U_I_D_ is supposed to come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: project manager: In this phase , the two of you , Jana and Francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . project manager: if you have any questions , you know , you you can always contact me or or your coach , I suppose . user interface: marketing: Wherever they're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: so I think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in thirty minutes , according to our timetable here <doc-sep>industrial designer: project manager: so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . industrial designer: Okay so I think I will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please open I'm participant two . project manager: industrial designer: Okay so the first thing I have done is to to made a review together with the manufactural department and have which components was available to build a remote control . So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and kinetic well kinetic technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: We also we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . But if we use battery industrial designer: Yeah b f well I meant by by battery I meant I will not have a a wire between the remote control and the energy source but I didn't fou we didn't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . But well it's not a a re well a real issue for the from the technical point of view . Concerning the interface we can we can put just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic energy collection is the is the better way to provide energy because I think solar energy wi won't work in a cluttered environment . For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it's trendy and it's it's well it's modern and user are are are will be very happy to have a a a nice remote . For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper . user interface: What is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: Well i i it's it's the the shape of the of the remote . user interface: So it's it's not industrial designer: You you will have the well the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: Yo l yeah . And the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it doesn't matter ? industrial designer: Yeah the that's the point . The kinetic one is y you can recharge by the user interface: That that's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: Yeah and by well by just by moving the ar your arm the well the remote will accumulate energy . industrial designer: But I d I don't know it's if it is feasible because I don't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote all the necessary energy . We we might check with our R_ and D_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . Wha industrial designer: So you're right we can see in our R_ and D_ if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . industrial designer: Oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: I take care , it's all right . user interface: So the titanium case is the normal case that I'll show you some pictures that I have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . There's another point I want to make , is that the well you've seen them I le na my presentation that I point out some why buttons are not the not the only ways you can use Yeah . So the user interface is i it uses the aspect of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . So you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . The idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . user interface: So some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way I receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . user interface: And it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . so somebody some people use some people use a spinning wheel th with the L_C_ display so instead of using the buttons you have a L_C_D_ screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . So s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . And then they also secure covers , to protect secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . I'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . So the adults might wanna have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . But for our product we don't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: user interface: T_V_ remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: And then , he will beeps and to say that I am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: We should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: Is it possible ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: ? industrial designer: Yeah but as Norman say if there is already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check to integrate it i into our new remote control . And , this is another one where you can the the the part that's a V_ standing for the volume . But you the see that in the V_ , the V_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: user interface: up arrow there's a V_ like as as if it's turning down so it's confusing interface , so I wanna avoid this kind of thing in the design . user interface: And here are is here is a s short summary that I summary that I compiled after the findings I found . Big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . user interface: And basically industrial designer: Well I I think you it's it's it's fine you have reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but well i if we consider that the user interface is displayed on the T_V_ screen I don't think we nee we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the T_V_ . So wi marketing: But people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: If the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . industrial designer: But wel well I think project manager: It's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . project manager: So marketing: it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: So it's the same marketing: Same remote with some project manager: Can be used by both kids and old people . Well what I s propose is that you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is a small device that looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: Maybe for kids , kids they like t no l they like to user interface: Small industrial designer: well . project manager: marketing: So we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . So seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they don't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . And eighty percent of the people they are always l they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they're not used most of the times . Most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the T_V_ . marketing: So they're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: And if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . marketing: So you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it's quite difficult to learn if it's too complex . marketing: So keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations I think this should be the solution for them . industrial designer: Well w well I I I don't really see the advantage of having L_C_D_ on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and display on the screen . industrial designer: It's marketing: - ? industrial designer: yeah of course it's fancy trendy and so on but it's it's expensive to produce and it's not really marketing: as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . marketing: So if we have a L_C_D_ on the remote , rather than looking onto the T_V_ you just look into a remote and navigate it . The thing marketing: We just play around industrial designer: Yeah but when you play with the iPod you don't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: You can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: Yeah . user interface: If you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the L_C_D_ , after all the L_C_D_ just to display project manager: . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the L_C_D_ , marketing: Yeah . marketing: So industrial designer: So I th I I well I think we we can focus on the on the fancy look on the user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but well I think L_C_D_ will will make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . So i is marketing: yeah we have project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an L_C_D_ will cost and then we'll decide again . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . industrial designer: And marketing: And it's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . marketing: the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . Yeah I think that marketing: Because they they just they're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . industrial designer: Yeah I I I think that well as we have seen in the in the presentation well about fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: Don't use the buttons . But project manager: But they are just less used compar marketing: They're not used much . industrial designer: But the the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the T_V_ screen user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: and you project manager: Or maybe we can u or maybe we can make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . marketing: industrial designer: But if i i if we if we could have a a a display g a user interface that is very complete on the T_V_ screen I think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: Yep . marketing: Or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a L_C_D_ on the remote not on the television . Because when you have the L_C_D_ onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: Yeah but marketing: So if you have then L_C_D_ in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the L_C_D_ displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . industrial designer: Yeah but if you look at the L_C_D_ you you don't look at the T_V_ screen marketing: And accordingly you can just increase or decrease . industrial designer: so i i it's not really worth to get to have the image if you don't look at , so . project manager: And I think it's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use L_C_D_ . user interface: I think that there's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you don't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wanna control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: Yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you don't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for L_C_D_ , marketing: Okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: better if we could just check all the cost with L_C_D_ user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like find user interface: . industrial designer: and when the remote control hears fine well yeah just to make him beep or t project manager: You will listen to a peep , special peep . marketing: it's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we don't use the remote control we put it in the charger . marketing: And when we're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the remote control beeps , wherever it is . marketing: it doe it also doesn't require a voice command , project manager: But you don't you don't have to move the the charger . user interface: That we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off T_V_ button , the off button , the remote there be s instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . user interface: because every time you're off the computer the T_V_ you are asked the the command the T_V_ com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . user interface: So it's it's it's all about strategy , y marketing: And of course the final point is a fancy look . marketing: As we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by Norman they weren't fancy , user interface: . marketing: I think we should have something it industrial designer: Well the last one with the yeah with the two parts was original , so user interface: With two two two parts controller . marketing: you see if it's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you can't avoid him . marketing: So just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he can't use even user interface: . industrial designer: Well we can think about having on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the T_V_ you can well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , things like that . project manager: Or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push kids button so it's automatically user interface: . marketing: I think these other four points they're the market demands and so it's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: So for project manager: Yeah . So for my part I will check the prices the the prices difference of what to use , where to use , and s and so on . marketing: Yeah I think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th these could be included . I think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: because if you want say we can sort by channels or sort by T_V_ programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: Well I think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like sports and then on the T_V_ you have a list with with well with sports program playing now user interface: . You see if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you've just say twenty five project manager: Yeah it's yeah . marketing: So I think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: Well but well e every possible word has a probability to come about of the T_V_ so . marketing: the the you just check all the probability that saying T_V_ twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . marketing: Ordinary twenty five you almost there's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: . marketing: and T_V_ twenty five I dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: But I I I think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . user interface: You say numbe channel number five of the T_V_ correspond to something else in the channel . user interface: ? project manager: Because you have to s t a ch user interface: Well , it's convenient for the user . marketing: Then project manager: Or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: The . user interface: I I think that I have I think there's another way you can do is that you can if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the T_V_ screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let's say it's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: Yeah , the . Just you have in the beginning you have t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . industrial designer: Well I I also project manager: By associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: I I also think about another problem , if if there is more than one person who is watching T_V_ project manager: And for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . industrial designer: Because I remember when I was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: . project manager: Or you have to s user interface: Yeah , I wanna watch this , I wanna watch that . industrial designer: so it's a pr it could be a problem if if well if someone passes by when you are watching T_V_ and say oh T_V_ thirty and just run , s user interface: . If we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad reputation for our company . marketing: So I think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: Yeah that's well I think that's a good a good option because it's simple and simple to implement also , so . industrial designer: marketing: Oh it came there on three minutes back so we are I think we can just press the okay

The team reached a consensus on printing the circuit board in bulk to reduce costs and accommodate both regular and advanced chips, including the infrared sender. While a scroll wheel was considered as an alternative to push buttons, its requirement for a more expensive chip led to the decision to use push buttons instead. The case design was agreed to be bright, colorful, and strong, with a trendy aesthetic. As for the energy source, the battery was chosen, but the team also explored the idea of incorporating kinetic charging as a backup option. The kinetic charging feature was seen as useful and convenient, allowing users to simply move the remote instead of relying on recharging or battery replacement. Additionally, it was suggested that exercising while using the remote could be a unique selling point. The team discussed various battery options, including basic, kinetic, and solar energy. Solar energy was deemed unsuitable for cluttered environments, while kinetic charging was seen as a self-rechargeable option. However, the team still had some uncertainty regarding the material for the case, with titanium being considered trendy and modern but not yet finalized.

What was the team's final decision on the component design, including the use of kinetic energy as the power source, the comparison between battery and kinetic energy, and the titanium case in the industrial design concept?

lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this morning's Children, Young People and Education Committee. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Ruth Conway, deputy director, support for learners division. Welcome to all of you, and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you've provided in advance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first questions are from Llyr Gruffydd. I just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because, clearly, we've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent. I'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because, clearly, it's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals, from some of the evidence we've had, but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals. I think it's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions, those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals. But in some cases, schools may use their PDG funding to provide a universal intervention, but we would want to—in challenge advisers' discussions in schools—we'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals. So, for instance, if I give you an example in your own region, Llyr: at Brynteg County Primary School in Wrexham, if you look at that primary school in Wrexham, their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts. One of the things that they've used their PDG for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school. So, that's a universal thing that they've trained all the teachers in, but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals. So, if you're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset, it's about really challenging learners to think that, 'I can do things. If sometimes I fail, I pick myself up, I'm more resilient.' Now, that has been, as I said, trained to all the teachers in the school—it's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater, and now they're at the same level. Individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals, but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff, for instance, and that, then, has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals. So, growth mindset; it may be attachment disorder training for staff, for instance, where we know it's of benefit to everybody, but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students. With regard to more able and talented, you know, Llyr, that this is an area of concern for me, generally, within the Welsh education system; that we've not been particularly good at identifying, supporting and driving attainment for those children. I'm absolutely clear that PDG needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential, whatever the potential of that child is, including more able and talented. And again, I'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in Pembrokeshire: a window on the world bus, again paid for by schools. kirsty williams am: Oh, you've heard about it; well, it's a really good example the window on the world. And, again, that's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented, who are eligible for PDG, those experiences, and to really push them. So, yes, I'm absolutely clear that PDG shouldn't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average. For those children who are more able and talented, it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: And we all share those aspirations, I'm sure, and you pointed to examples of good practice, but of course, it's not universal, is it, so what I'm asking is: do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is? Do you think that there's a great enough awareness of how the PDG should be used at the coalface? And also, are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly? kirsty williams am: I think, if we look at what Estyn has said about PDG, it does actually recognise that the PDG is being used to push more able and talented children, but as always with the system, Llyr, it's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it's happening across all of our schools. So, you're— llyr gruffydd am: But not just in relation to more able and talented, I'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting. You'll be aware that, on the advice of Sir Alasdair, we have employed and appointed new PDG regional advisers, and I think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region, whether that's use of PDG for more able and talented, or ensuring that PDG is used in the appropriate way. And obviously, we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers, in the relationship and the conversations they're having with individual schools, that they're really challenging their schools about the use of PDG, not just in terms of targeting, but the programmes, what the money is being spent on, whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact. So, I think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions. llyr gruffydd am: So, are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure, really, of identifying which pupils to target? kirsty williams am: Llyr, in the absence of anything better. I'll be the first person to say that maybe it's not as absolutely focused, but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need, I think it's probably the best that we've got at present. Some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands, so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit, for instance, we've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need, going forward. We haven't had any additional resource as a result of this, but we're very mindful that, potentially, this has an impact, going forward. And, officials are working all of the time, I must say, in conjunction with the department in England, to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward, but before I make any decisions, I want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that. Finally for now, on this issue of once a year, in January, if you're eligible for free school meals, then you're in that group for that year. We've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we've also been pointed in the direction of what's happened in England with the Ever 6, and I'm just wondering whether you're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit. In conversations with Alasdair, who is our independent adviser on this agenda, and individual schools, we're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections, so that schools know, for a number of years ahead, what their allocation will be. There are advantages to that system, because you could give that flexibility, you could give that long-term approach, but then, how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children? We do know that, actually, the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping. But there can be changes, you know, regional working in areas of north Wales in tourism, or maybe in other areas at Christmas time, parents are able to get a period of work. So, how can we create a more flexible system? We're actively looking at that at the moment. I wouldn't use it as an Ever 6 concept, but as an 'Ever 2' concept. We have looked at Ever 6, and I'm going to be absolutely blunt with you: to introduce an Ever 6 concept for Wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million. I'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you: we're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an Ever 6. In fact, we'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions, going forward, for the next two years. darren millar am: It's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that. That's, of course, assuming that you maintain the current level of PDG, yes? So, if you reduced the level of PDG slightly, but made it available to more individuals, if you like, via allocating it in a different way, then that £40 million price ticket wouldn't be there, would it? kirsty williams am: I was asked a question about had I ever considered an Ever 6. We could, indeed, change the way in which we allocate PDG money, but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me, over £90 million. That's a significant level of investment, but, of course, as always, Darren, we could cut the amount per pupil, but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations. What we have done—because what I am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector, a great deal of PDG was being focused on years 10 and 11, especially year 11, in catch-up provision, and you'll be aware, because we've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers, we've set a challenge to secondary schools to say, 'Actually, the majority of your PDG allocation has to be used in key stage 3.' Now, we have to balance the needs, the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying, 'We're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you,' because, clearly, those children need that support. But the evidence and the advice that we're receiving is: actually, strong focus on early years, primary and key stage 3, if we get that right, should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. That's why we, in our advice to local authorities and schools, say that we want to see evidence that they're spending this money earlier on in a child's career, rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say, 'Right, we've got to get you through your exams.' darren millar am: Okay, but have you actively considered, then, reducing the level you have? kirsty williams am: We've— ruth conway: Sorry—I was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition, and I think it's about being more flexible with the definition, rather than reducing the amount per head. If we can go on, then, to talk about some of the practical uses of the PDG, you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions' on how to use it. But Estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the PDG. Given that we've had it now for six years, would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding? kirsty williams am: Well, to flip it on its head, the vast majority of schools, as identified by Estyn, are using this money to good effect. So, that's the way I like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well. What Estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools, and as you'll be aware, leadership, improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the Welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission. I think we are seeing, increasingly, more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students. So, if we're honest, when PDG first started, I think, in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children, because they'd never thought about tracking these children, they didn't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children, and to have a system in place. So we've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for FSM children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning. We're also seeing from Estyn that, actually, in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works, Estyn says that PDG is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money. But clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be, and again we come back to the decision I've made to appoint regional PDG advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach. We are, in the discussions that I have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage, looking for very clear evidence of schools using the Sutton Trust toolkit, and we could have a discussion about whether that's the right thing, because that's on my mind too. But we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base, and if they're not, if a school isn't doing that, okay, so demonstrate to us why you've made those decisions and, crucially, what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils. So, if you're moving away from tried and tested interventions, what we know works, if you're doing something different with your money, okay, you need to justify that and you need to explain how you're going to demonstrate impact. But I think what we're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the PDG develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops. llyr gruffydd am: You mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions, really, and I'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of PDG is being driven by cuts to core funding. kirsty williams am: No, I don't think it's being driven by cuts to core funding. One of the biggest impacts of PDG has not been—well, I suppose it is the money in itself, because the money has concentrated the minds, hasn't it? So, one of the most important things that PDG has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools, and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools, and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools. I think the changing use of PDG reflects the journeys that schools have been on, some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them, to better understanding, and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area, both in Wales and outside of Wales, schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools. llyr gruffydd am: So you wouldn't accept at all that some of this money's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere. Because the unions and some others have told us that, whether we like it or not, there is some of that going on. kirsty williams am: As I said, Llyr, we're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools, and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system. Can we continue to improve, and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice? Yes, we can, and as I've said, we've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that. mark reckless am: Cabinet Secretary, how would you assess the impact of PDG on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals? kirsty williams am: I think what's important to note is that, as Estyn have themselves said, over the period of the last inspection report, we have seen improvements in attendance, but I do think we need to, again, look at how PDG can support this particular agenda. And as always in the Welsh education system, there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this. Ysgol y Preseli in Pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they've deployed their money. Forgive me; I can't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school I visited, again in north Wales, where the school has proactively used this money, and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day, and they actually have a walking bus. So, they're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms, because the teacher said, 'We recognised we had a problem with attendance. We tried a variety of means of improving that, but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus, and they walk the children into school'. They say that they know that, for some of those children, because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in, they probably wouldn't be in school if it wasn't for that proactive approach. So, we're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance, because although, again, there are examples of good practice, there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils. And, of course, we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching, but unless the children are in the classes then we're not going to make the difference for them. Whilst that differential exists, then it's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children. mark reckless am: I was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more, who have pretty full attendance, was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4, compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils. My colleague here showed me, I think, last week, a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment, in particular. What more can PDG do to deal with it? In the example you give I can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that, but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that don't have that high a proportion of free school meals, where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative. kirsty williams am: Yes, indeed, and I think it gets more challenging the older the children get. I think it's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up, so key stage 4. So, you can do a walking bus with little ones, can't you, but I don't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that. But again, we see in Ysgol y Preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around, as you quite rightly say, the linkage between attendance and attainment, and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance: what's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school, and what more can the school do to address those situations. But you're absolutely right; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment. steve davies: There is also another very good example—and I take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers, they're investing PDG in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor, not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools. So, it's something, particularly in our most challenging areas, where it cannot just be delivered within the school. So, good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas. To what extent is PDG also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals? kirsty williams am: So, if we looked at permanent exclusions, there isn't a differential, but if we look at temporary exclusions, there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions. Again, I think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child. Some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child's life. So, this is where we come back to the committee's work, for instance, on mental health and support for children, support for behaviour in school. So, again, it's a multi-agency approach that I think we need, and, in our good schools, our really, really good schools, there's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education. So, for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school, we are providing additional support that previously was not available. hefin david am: It appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened, in spite of PDG levels. So, if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it, the gap has increased. I'm sure we all want to, because I want to, have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year. But, if we look at the period that we have been employing PDG, over that period, we have seen a narrowing of the gap. So, if we look at where we started from: in 2009, one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016, we had got that down to one in three. Obviously, there's still a way to go, but, Sir Alasdair, who knows about these things, says that that is a significant improvement. Last year, we got some challenges. We need to understand why that happened, but I do think it's— hefin david am: Why, do you think? kirsty williams am: Why, do I think? What I do think is there is no one answer. I think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from BTEC to science GCSEs. I think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who weren't doing a single science GCSE and are now doing science GCSEs. Where children have done language and literature, whether that be through the medium of English or through the medium of Welsh, there is more resilience. So, it's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that I think could potentially make a difference. So, I think there's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year. At my next ministerial policy board, in May, we'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject. hefin david am: So, to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability? kirsty williams am: It could be one of the contributory factors. What I think is important is that there is no one, single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children. hefin david am: Will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns? kirsty williams am: I have written to Qualifications Wales, we've had discussions about it, but I've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for May, where, as I said, we will be doing a formal, deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues. But, again, Hefin, what we've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors, you know, our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose FSM performance was better than it had been the year before. So, what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well, whereas, in other schools, the performance was different? Even in individual cities, you can see a huge variety of performance. So, you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals. The difference between those performances in a single city—so, that's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change. There's one school I can talk to: their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent. A similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals, their performance is down in the 20 per cents. For me, the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well. We've got one school in Swansea, their FSM performance at GCSE level 2 outperforms non-FSM pupils. If we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive, in a few years' time, when we will be looking back in two years' time, how are we going to measure this progress, say, in 2019? What are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way? kirsty williams am: Well, you'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: So, what performance measures will you use? kirsty williams am: So, for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus, and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools. What's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children. What level 2 plus does is narrow, very much, the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort, usually the C/D borderline, which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a B grade or above. Well, if a child gets a C but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an E, yes, indeed, a C is a success, because you've moved that child on; but, if that child came to you destined to get an A* and gets a C, then we haven't done a good job by that particular child. So, we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated, looks at each individual child, tracks that progress, and measures the value added by that school in performance. hefin david am: Last question: therefore, should we have confidence in the data up to 2016? Is there a lack of confidence in that data? kirsty williams am: No, it's not a lack of confidence in the data. What I'm saying is, using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time. I think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because Ministers wanted that to happen, but as an unintended consequence. I think we can work together with our school system, learning the lessons of international best practice, to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools, and, I should say, for the Government. So, you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on Government performance later on this year. It's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way, which is in line with our national mission, where every child's education is valued, and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively. Can I just ask, Cabinet Secretary, are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold? kirsty williams am: Well, we're moving away from the level 2 threshold. So, we will want to develop a new suite, in line with our new accountability measures, as we go forward. So, we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils. When we announce our new accountability measures, I will be in a position to address how we'll measure the Government's performance, and national performance, going forward. But, given the fact that we're moving away from level 2 plus, then we will need a different set of performance indicators. The next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children, and I've got questions from Michelle then Mark. mark reckless am: I think my questions are first, but, Michelle, please do correct me if you were planning to come in before. The PDG for looked-after children doesn't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the PDG for the free-school-meals. I think we had the MORI/WISERD survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that PDG was targeted at looked-after children. I just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with PDG for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field? kirsty williams am: Okay. I think that's probably in the nature of the cohort, so, there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after. My understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously. We have looked-after children PDG co-ordinators—they're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource. And that resource can be done in a variety of ways, through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child, through to capacity building for the whole system. So, for instance, if I give you an example, in Carmarthenshire, there's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder. Carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children. But I have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year. Steve, on my behalf, wrote out to the system, setting out our expectations, but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money. So, what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect? But, Steve, maybe you can give some greater detail. One of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region, but having a regional strategic support—was that, historically, the money was going directly with that child to the school. Given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically, what happened, the money lands in the school, because, at that time in the year, when it's measured, the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff, but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money doesn't transfer. Some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically, 'How do I need to support them?' So, that was the rationale of the shift. In terms of the implementation of the regional allocation, as of this financial year finishing, we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they've located the resource, what the impact of that resource has been, so that is reinforced and shared more widely. kirsty williams am: And then, to reassure, it's not just internally that we're looking at this. We have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: That's ICF consulting. Yes, so that was done in the autumn of last year, because, as I said, we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended. So, my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring, and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: That was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: Yes, in November 2017. kirsty williams am: So, I'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess. I'm very reluctant to say months; I've learnt not to say months, because they move. lynne neagle am: I'm going to go to Michelle now, Mark, because— mark reckless am: Sure. lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions, and that's what the pre-meeting is for. Would you be open, Cabinet Secretary, to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the PDG so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the PDG, rather than only if they're looked-after on a one-off date? kirsty williams am: As I said earlier, in questions from, I think it was, Llyr, who was talking about concepts of concepts of Ever 6, we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource. Llyr opened with the question of, 'How can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money?', but then there's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school's usage of the grant. Issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive, because we couldn't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child. So, a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school, but we can't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted, especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school. We can't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they don't want to, but we certainly can, as I say, look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around PDG support for looked-after children and the impact that that's having. If they don't want to divulge that, it wouldn't be my job to tell a family, 'You have to let us know if your child is adopted.' lynne neagle am: Michelle. The EAS consortium's approach to using the looked-after and adopted PDG is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general. What are your views on that approach? kirsty williams am: I'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners, we'll be getting it right for all of our learners. I gave the example earlier, for instance, of attachment disorder, and, Chair, you will know that I have had conversations. One of the emerging themes for me, as I go around visiting schools, is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder, and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children. So, for instance, as I said about Carmarthenshire, there's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in Carmarthenshire. Now, that has a disproportionate benefit for those children, because you're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced, because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived, but that doesn't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after. So, that vulnerable learner, regardless of their background, will benefit from having teachers who are better trained, understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need. steve davies: I think it's also important to add that this is not one region's approach; this is across four regions, so the others—. For example, ERW have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils, which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies. kirsty williams am: I was in Pil Primary School recently where they use their PDG, both FSM PDG, and no doubt an element of PDG for looked-after, for nurture groups. So, for those children who really, really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom, they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour, feelings, and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they're in a better position to learn. Can I follow up on tracking adopted children? I entirely understand that you can't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted. However, my understanding was that, in England, there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that I'm not clear is happening in Wales and how, if at all, that links to the pupil level annual school census data. Perhaps sort of linked to that, isn't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools, potentially, with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant, and would they not be more willing to disclose this, at least confidentially to the school and Government, if they knew there was this upside of doing so? kirsty williams am: We're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data, with the caveats that I just gave earlier. We can't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them, nor would I want to. But there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through. One of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up, for instance, of free school meals, especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it, there's a reluctance to do it; sometimes we see this in rural areas—. Actually, appealing to the parents by saying, 'Actually, this will mean more money for your child's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying, 'Actually, it's going to help you', because they don't want to be seen being dependent, they don't want to be seen being helped. But, if you say to them, 'Actually, do you know that this means more money for your child's school?', they go, 'Oh, all right then, I'll fill in the forms now.' So, you're right, I think there is something that we could do to make parents understand, in the round, that this has an impact. But we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing. One of the things I am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can, across Government, work more closely together. We can't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education. Now, officials were at the ministerial advisory group that's chaired by David Melding on prospects for looked-after children. I will be sitting down with David Melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side. I think there's really an appetite between me and the Minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this. We can't expect schools to do it on their own and alone. And there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes. It's not just about the PDG; it is about, when social services are thinking about a placement, where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place? Do we talk about the placement, move a child and then think, 'Oh my goodness me, what are we going to do about the schooling?' If you can imagine, the school could have been working really, really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place, to get them being able to access the curriculum, and then social services decide that the placement is being changed. So, a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this. If we think we can crack this with just PDG, then we're being delusional. It has to be a cross-government approach at a national level, and at a local government level as well, to get this right. Sometimes, data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between, you know, the school doesn't need to, schools shouldn't see, the entire social services report? Well, maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they're going to have an impact for that child. So, there's more work to do, but it cannot be just the job of education on its own if we're going to make a difference, nor can it just be the job of the PDG to make a difference for those children. julie morgan am: Yes, before I go on to those, I just wanted to support, really, what Mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is, I think, that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information. Because certainly any evidence we've had from adoptive parents, and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel, is that they often feel that there's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption. I would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school. kirsty williams am: Yes, and that would chime with what I hear from many adoptive parents. I'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we can't force people to divulge this information if they don't want to. We need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported, and how best we can support parents. Because, again—and I've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching, the second biggest impact on a child's educational outcome will be parental engagement. So, being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children's education is absolutely crucial if we're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children. Going on to looked-after children, you say that the latest data on looked-after children's attainment is extremely disappointing. Can you expand on that and what effect the PDG has had in this result, or not had? kirsty williams am: Well, there's no getting away from it: the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children, the results are not good enough. That's why officials are engaging with the group that David Melding is chairing, to make sure that education is integral to that group and it's not lost sight of. There's a discussion to be had about the cohort, whether it's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort, or whether these statistics are useful in any way. Sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because, as I've said in my paper, it's extremely disappointing, but sometimes it can be really difficult. Because the cohort sometimes can be very, very small, it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic. julie morgan am: I think, generally, when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: It's not good. julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation, they're not doing well, are they? kirsty williams am: They're not doing well. So, that's why we've got the review, the independent review, into the impact of the PDG in this area. This is why Steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because, clearly, at the moment, we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children. steve davies: I think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good GCSEs to gain employment, so we'll continue to measure that. I think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level. So, for example, there were significant improvements in terms of PDG pupils who got three and four good GCSEs but didn't get past the threshold. That's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement, but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training. So, is there any way of trying to address this? Is the PDG used for anything to do with exclusions? kirsty williams am: We can look at exclusions. We also have to read across about how the whole system works, not just the PDG element of the system. So, we know, for example, that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need, so we can't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding; we have to look at it at a wider level of support. So, given that the majority of those children will have an ALN, how can we make sure that our new ALN legislation and our new ALN regime meets the needs of these children? So, I think what we're looking at, again, is to say that it can't be just the job of the PDG. That's there as an additional level of support, but actually, we've got to get our ALN right. Unless we get our ALN right, lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in, day out via that system. We do know that sometimes, if we're not addressing ALN, then we're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance. So, we've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting, that are not just as a result of the fact that they're looked after; they have other needs as well. Steve is reminding me that that's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being, which is a way of keeping them in school. I was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others didn't. kirsty williams am: I think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very, very different places. So, I think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex, not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward. I think, talking to those involved in the programme, as always, we had some support advisers, challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really, really excellent and really good, and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards. We had other people employed in the programme who, perhaps, were less effective at driving change within those individual schools. So, what we have is a mixed bag of performance, again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing, which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place. One of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started, because— kirsty williams am: Leadership is all. I think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier, sometimes, to the speed with which you can move. But, for a significant minority of the schools, there had been recent new appointments of headteachers, which was seen to be contributing, when you looked at the evaluation, to the speed with which they were able to engage. llyr gruffydd am: The reason I was asking was I wanted to understand what lessons the Government is taking from that three-year investment, really, and how, maybe, you're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme. I know Professor Mel Ainscow identified six interconnected lessons, although I also note that the Cabinet Secretary didn't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post. So, I'm just wondering, can you give us confidence that, actually, you are serious about taking lessons from Schools Challenge Cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda? kirsty williams am: Well, absolutely, Llyr. I don't think anything should be read into when I met the individual concerned, because officials were meeting the individual concerned. Individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions, there was crossover work with the FSM agenda as well, and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia. It's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by Schools Challenge Cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia. So, those people that were really good and really made a difference don't work for the Schools Challenge Cymru scheme any more, they work for our regional school improvement services. It is absolutely key and crucial to have strong, capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system. We're looking at systems and processes, so, actually, has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school? We're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom? Collaborative activity—again, absolutely key. A school cannot see itself in isolation, and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system, so, collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other, learning from best practice from other schools. So, there are lots of things that we've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission, and, as I said, it's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in Schools Challenge Cymru are now working for the regional consortia, being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools. llyr gruffydd am: Although Estyn has told us, of course, that you can't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously, so I'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: In what way? llyr gruffydd am: Well, we were told by Estyn in evidence that they didn't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support, and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: Well, the improvement boards are carrying on, so the improvement boards still exist, and I would—not that I want to argue with Estyn— llyr gruffydd am: Well, feel free; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: What I would say is that those improvement boards are staying on, and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support. Now, if you're a red school, that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support. That is more than you would have got under the Schools Challenge Cymru programme, which would've been 20 days. So, actually, moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support. And what's important for me, Llyr, in this, okay, is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme. Our system now of challenge, advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors, because you'll be aware that Schools Challenge was only available to secondary schools, not available to primary schools. What our system now allows us to do, via the schools categorisation, is to identify schools, wherever they are in Wales and whatever sector they're in, to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements. llyr gruffydd am: So, you're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools, and you're also confident that there is minimal risk that they'll slip back to where they were, potentially, or at least part of the way back. kirsty williams am: Well, actually, there are some really good examples of some of the Schools Challenge Cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end. You only have to look at Tredegar, where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system. That school is now a green school, so they've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme. If we look at Armando in Eastern High School, again—gosh, my goodness me, we had lots of debates in a previous Chamber about the future of Eastern. There was one person that said that Eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down, but what we have seen is investment via Schools Challenge Cymru, but ongoing, continual support from the regional consortium, and that school has come out of special measures. I pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job. So, I'm absolutely convinced that where we've got good leadership and good support, some of those schools are making continued, sustained progress even after the end of the programme. The challenge for me is for those schools that Schools Challenge Cymru didn't work for, and we haven't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference. So that's what my focus is on now: a whole-system approach, rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support, when we recognise that there are schools everywhere, potentially, that need intervention, support and challenge, and in the primary sector as well. So, you wouldn't agree with a number of—well, the near-unanimous evidence that we've had from academics, some of whom are Government advisers from consortia et cetera, that this kind of programme such as Schools Challenge Cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have. kirsty williams am: What I would say is that, from my understanding, from the outset, it was a time-limited programme. That's not to say it was the wrong decision, because what's important, and an ongoing legacy of the programme, was the investment in regional school improvement capacity, because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young, in their infancy. The ability of individual local authorities to make a difference, with so many local authorities in an Estyn categorisation, was limited, so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work. llyr gruffydd am: So, how disappointed were you that the money for Schools Challenge Cymru went back into reserves and didn't stay in your envelope, as you described it earlier? I presume you made a pitch for it. Did you make a case for that money to stay within your department? kirsty williams am: Llyr, we are constantly having discussions with the Minister for Finance around support for the education budget. We were able to secure investment from the Finance Minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support, so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia, there were resources to do that. llyr gruffydd am: Did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had? kirsty williams am: Well, we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that. As I say, from the outset, the previous Minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme. And I want to be absolutely clear: I have visited many, many Schools Challenge Cymru schools. I have used that opportunity to talk to them about—Heolddu being one of them, Hefin, which we went to visit, and Willows, for instance. I'm going to one this afternoon—I'm going to St Illtyd's this afternoon, and I always take—. I always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them. hefin david am: With regard to it being a time-limited programme, the previous Minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme, but it wasn't quite as time-limited as you've decided to be. Is that fair to say? kirsty williams am: No, it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most. So, there's no differential between when I decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: So the time limit was the same that the previous Minister put on it. llyr gruffydd am: But Mel Ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up, don't get me wrong, but clearly there wasn't that commitment coming from Government because the decision had been made, and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit, and that impacted on the momentum. I think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as a fading out—not at all. As I said, we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools, and to learn the lessons and, crucially, to be able to apply those lessons right across the board. steve davies: I can see where the perception would come if a programme director like Mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same, and it falls off—not a cliff, but it falls off, then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a Government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme, those schools and the region. So, I think, inevitably, one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work, but it was necessary for the transition. llyr gruffydd am: But does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition, then—that one key player within that process felt as such, or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively? kirsty williams am: I think it was managed well, and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved, but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact, because that wouldn't be good for anybody. There was a formal event to close the programme, which gave everybody an opportunity to get together, to be formally thanked, and for, as I said, congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and, crucially, key staff transferred over into the regional consortia. So, for those individuals, they were able to continue their work, but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school. So, I don't see that there was any fading out, but there was a transition into a new system, and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us. lynne neagle am: Have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia? kirsty williams am: Not off the top of my head, but I can let you know. kirsty williams am: And can I just say, I met with some of them? I met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right, and what they didn't feel had gone right in the programme. So, I took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme, but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools. darren millar am: Yes, I just wanted to ask you, you mentioned the figurehead there, I assume by 'the figurehead' you mean Professor Ainscow. And you've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from Schools Challenge Cymru, but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since March of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement, or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked, what didn't work, why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others. Why haven't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme? kirsty williams am: I've had that conversation with Mr Ainscow. We've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools. We've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned, what was valuable and what was not valuable. darren millar am: But you've hardly engaged with Mr Ainscow—with Professor Ainscow himself. steve davies: I would actually say that I have had meetings— darren millar am: Since March of last year. I've had discussions with Mel Ainscow, and my line manager at the time, Owen Evans, also had meetings and discussions. darren millar am: So, when he told us, 'Since last March, I literally have had no contact at all with anybody from Welsh Government', he was telling porky pies, was he? steve davies: That's not my recollection. kirsty williams am: Yes, well, I just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme. And this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how I see or how I regard that situation. mark reckless am: I have to say, with Professor Ainscow my impression was he took great, great pride in the work that he'd done with Schools Challenge Cymru, and I think he really enjoyed the engagement, the work and the positive relations with the Welsh Government. But I think there was just a degree of disappointment, perhaps, that at least he didn't feel that he'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme, and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia. I just wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you could invite the professor in, perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area. kirsty williams am: Well, Mark, as I said, I just don't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual. kirsty williams am: As I said, I met with him, Steve has met with him, Owen Evans has met with him, my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions. But, Mark, I hope that I have demonstrated since I took on this job that I am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission. And if the advice to me is that we haven't sufficiently learnt the lessons, then I'll gladly have another conversation. What I'm saying to you—and I'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons, we are taking that work and the good practice forward, and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this, from individual schools that were involved in the programme, individual people who were working in those schools, local education authorities, some of which have been very scathing about the programme, I should say, regional consortia—. mark reckless am: I'm glad to hear that, Cabinet Secretary, but I still say that, listening to Professor Ainscow's evidence, there was a perception, at least from him individually, that the programme should not be seen to be a failure, but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception, at least on his part, that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process. And just to take one particular example, I think he referred to the Schools Challenge Cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this, and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people, perhaps in some areas, of the same high standard of some particular individuals, but also from a wide range of different areas that the Schools Challenge Cymru do, and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people. Is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about? Because I think he does feel that he has more to say to Welsh Government to help in this area. kirsty williams am: Firstly, can I say that I have never described the programme as a failure? I would understand, as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges, that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure. And I want to be absolutely clear that I have never described the programme as a failure, and I want to reassure Mr Ainscow of that. As I've said, gosh, my goodness me, if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in, people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what I need to do, what I need to do next, what I'm doing right, what I'm doing wrong, and, you know, our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission. I'm sure the Minister is aware that Cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue Schools Challenge Cymru advisers. So, obviously, they appreciated the value of the scheme, but it does query whether it should have gone on longer. kirsty williams am: Julie, I think, to be fair, there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic. I've had feedback from people who didn't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact, they felt it was a hindrance. I'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas. What's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes, how we can—like Mark talked about, the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system, and how we can apply the lessons to all schools. john griffiths am: Some questions on regional consortia, Cabinet Secretary, and, first of all, the role that you believe they should play and how schools use PDG. It's one of the things that I have been very clear to the regional consortia that I expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about. So, one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring, with that school, how they are using their PDG, and how they're demonstrating an impact for those resources. So, it's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work. john griffiths am: That sort of brings to mind some of the research that's been done on the role of the challenge advisers, Cabinet Secretary, which suggested that they're not actually challenging schools in that way, and that there's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of PDG as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers. So, how would you respond to those findings? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia, I specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of PDG within their particular region. I think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource, and I think that is being fed back into us. Estyn tell us that it's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base. But, clearly, there is more to do, and that's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for PDG going forward, because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level. There's always more that we can do, and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional PDG advisers, so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for, know what they should be doing, and there is a regional approach to good practice. Could you tell the committee, Cabinet Secretary, how effective you believe the relationship was between the Schools Challenge Cymru programme and the regional consortia's school improvement functions, and to what extent it varied by region? kirsty williams am: I think it's fair to say that, on occasion, I have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether, then, they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that. So, in some cases, if we're being absolutely honest, there could sometimes be tensions between the two, but in most cases, the relationship was very, very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers. But I'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases, it has been reported to me—it's only anecdotal evidence; I haven't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict: 'We're a school challenge school so we don't need to participate or listen to any advice that's coming from the regional consortia.' Or, a local education authority said to me, 'We felt that we couldn't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme.' Those were isolated incidents, and, as I said, it's only anecdotal feedback. steve davies: Just very quickly, I think that, across the board, it was more complex in the beginning, getting—[Inaudible.]. But when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions, and the regions needed to work with them—and I think Mel Ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges. I think Mel Ainscow was working in a number of regions—I can't remember which ones—so he's established relationships—[Interruption.] Sorry? kirsty williams am: Central south. He has already been working in that, so I think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working. kirsty williams am: Because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region. Finally from me, Cabinet Secretary: in 2015-16, Estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example, vulnerable pupils. I just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16. Well, I think it's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year, of 2017, which weren't reflected in the Estyn annual report for 2015-16. Estyn, through these 2017 inspections, have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work, and we are continuing, as Welsh Government, to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the Estyn report. The committee probably hasn't had an opportunity to see, but, only this morning, Estyn has released a report on more able and talented, and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented, which was being asked about earlier by Members—you know, evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena. But, again, we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions, and that the findings of Estyn's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through. As we've got a couple of minutes left, if I can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the PDG—because it's the only thing we haven't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can I ask to what extent you'd like to see the PDG used to track the progress of eligible pupils? And the committee's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools. To what extent is that an issue to do with what the Welsh Government is promoting? Or is it down to consortia or individual schools? And do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken? kirsty williams am: Firstly, can I say it's absolutely crucial that we track performance, absolutely crucial? That's the bedrock. We don't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school. There are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this, but we are absolutely clear, and best practice and evidence shows us, that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial. And, as I said in the beginning, where we weren't tracking pupils at all, initial investment in PDG was used to establish these systems within schools. Again, one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review, and one of the lessons learnt, was, again, the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career. lynne neagle am: Okay, and you don't think there's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools. At the moment we use the Sutton Trust toolkit, which is fine and excellent, but we are having active discussions about whether we're in a position, now, to look at developing a suite of a Welsh toolkit to support this agenda, and that's under active consideration. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for coming. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education, updating us on the supply teacher issue. Paper to note 3—another letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education, providing further information following our meeting on 15 February. And paper to note 6 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales, following up on the dialogue that they've been having about our inquiry. Item 4, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see. the chair: I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. sylvie brub (abitibibaie-jamesnunavikeeyou, bq): Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. marie-france lalonde (orlans, lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no? right hon. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General? right hon. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no? right hon. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability? right hon. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials? right hon. justin trudeau: Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. yves-franois blanchet: We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. justin trudeau: We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister? right hon. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no? right hon. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear? right hon. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so? right hon. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation? the chair: Mr. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon. the chair: We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. When the situation is stable, we will have the chair: Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes. alain rayes: Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. bill morneau: I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them. alain rayes: The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so? hon. bill morneau: Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. alain rayes: The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update? hon. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work? hon. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation. alain rayes: Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep? hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on? hon. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand? hon. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians? hon. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. dean allison: At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard? hon. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans? hon. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no? hon. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens? hon. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin? the chair: The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work? hon. patty hajdu: As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time the chair: We go back to Ms. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in? hon. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. cheryl gallant: How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you? the chair: Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. patty hajdu: We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access? hon. patty hajdu: Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists? hon. patty hajdu: I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular the chair: We will go back to Ms. cheryl gallant: Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study? hon. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada the chair: We'll go back to Ms. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred? hon. cheryl gallant: I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market? hon. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. pat kelly (calgary rocky ridge, cpc): When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job? hon. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration the chair: We'll go to Mr. pat kelly: I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60 the chair: We'll move on to Mr. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers? hon. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General? hon. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period. the chair: Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): There's a point of order. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the the acting chair (mrs. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. patty hajdu: Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. patty hajdu: We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. gabriel ste-marie: MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait. patty hajdu: Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred the acting chair (mrs. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs. alexis brunelle-duceppe: If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. bill blair: I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them. alexis brunelle-duceppe: This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired. bryan may: I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis. shaun chen (scarborough north, lib.): Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces. lindsay mathyssen: The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that the acting chair (mrs. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class? hon. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no? hon. mona fortier: MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. charlie angus: The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to. mona fortier: MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge. michael cooper: Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. seamus o'regan: Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. michael cooper: Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector? hon. seamus o'regan: Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. alexandra mends): I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada? hon. marc garneau: MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. richard martel: The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. richard martel: I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean? hon. mlanie joly: I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. richard martel: Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. carla qualtrough: We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. carla qualtrough: I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. jag sahota: Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done? hon. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. jag sahota: Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country. jag sahota: Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps? hon. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today. jag sahota: Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs? the acting chair (mrs. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so. colin carrie (oshawa, cpc): Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29? hon. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. colin carrie: Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference? hon. marco mendicino: Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner. colin carrie: Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. marco mendicino: Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. marco mendicino: Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. colin carrie: Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not? hon. marco mendicino: Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates? hon. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada. colin carrie: He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now? hon. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help? hon. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap. elizabeth may: Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. elizabeth may: The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding? hon. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program? the acting chair (mrs. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted? hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. randall garrison: The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. jean-yves duclos: Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done. randall garrison: Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately? the acting chair (mrs. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity. maxime blanchette-joncas (rimouski-neigettetmiscouatales basques, bq): MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers? hon. carla qualtrough: MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians. maxime blanchette-joncas: We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone. denis trudel (longueuilsaint-hubert, bq): MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. steven guilbeault: MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5? the acting chair (mrs. carla qualtrough: Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers. denis trudel: In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed? hon. mlanie joly: MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need? hon. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food. richard bragdon: Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now? hon. mlanie joly: Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times. richard bragdon: On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have? hon. marco mendicino: Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe. richard bragdon: Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land? hon. marco mendicino: Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food. richard bragdon: Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need? the acting chair (mrs. mlanie joly: We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop. alexandra mends): Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Michelle Brown and Jack Sargeant; there are no substitutions. We'll move on, then, to item 2, which is our scrutiny of the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' draft strategy, and I'm very pleased to welcome Dr Frank Atherton, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, and Nathan Cook, who is the head of the healthy and active branch at Welsh Government. If I can just start by asking about the fact that 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' is an all-age strategy, really, and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people. We have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that, and we can't walk away from that because that's translating into demand on health services. But we have to take a focus, a future generation's focus, almost, on the next generation. I don't write off the current generation, we can't afford to do that, but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they don't get into the sorts of problems that we're currently seeing with overweight and obesity. We know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we don't do something and something quite soon. We know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults, unfortunately, and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera. So, we have to focus on children, and, in fact, during the consultation, we've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well. Perhaps we'll get into that at some point, Chair, but, yes, I can give you that assurance. What my follow-up question, really, is: can you just tell us what kind of engagement you've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy? dr frank atherton: Well, Nathan may be able to influence some of the detail, but in broad terms, we have discussed with young people in a number of fora. In fact, I was delighted that we had a young person, Evie Morgan, a schoolgirl from mid Wales, who came to the joint launch on the consultation. She met the Minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight. I'm visiting a school, either this week or next week, at Treorchy, to talk with teachers and young people there. nathan cook: I was going to say, we've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well, and what we've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people's version, but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well. So, we've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already. lynne neagle am: And you've got a structured programme, have you, to roll that out? Okay. We've got some questions now on leadership, and the first questions are from Siân Gwenllian. The Minister for health said yesterday, in answering a question from me on the Chamber floor, that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children. Could you confirm that that's what your advice was and tell us why you don't think that a target is needed? dr frank atherton: My advice was not that we don't need a target—we may well need a target, and that's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in England and in Scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable, and that if we are to choose a target in Wales, then we need to balance deliverability with challenge. So, there is something about performance management, because I would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they're delivering on this, and I think we can use targets to that. But they are one tool in the box that I would think we could use, and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'If we are to go down a route in Wales of choosing a target, what might that look like?' sian gwenllian am: Okay. dr frank atherton: It's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy. Well, that is contrary to what I was told yesterday on the floor of the Chamber by the Minister, but there we go. I'm glad to hear that you're not ruling out having a target, because without a target, without something to aim for, how do we know that we're getting there? dr frank atherton: I think your point about evaluation is really important. Whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation. So, some metrics in there, it would seem, would be appropriate, but what those are, what the nature of those are, do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that's the point we need to consult on. If the Government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity, then it needs to fund and support the actions. Have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan? dr frank atherton: Resourcing will be important. We currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally, and, of course, obesity and overweight in particular. Now, we can't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in Wales. A figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest, but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes. Can we make them more effective? Can we get better value from them? And there may well be a case for new investment, and that's a question, of course, that would need to be discussed with Ministers when we're producing the final strategy. nathan cook: But I think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services. So, I think what we really need to think about across Wales is how we can drive greater scale, how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they're better evaluated, and how we can make sure that we're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well. sian gwenllian am: And does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is? dr frank atherton: I don't think you can necessarily just link the two. The issue of resourcing is one that's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place. sian gwenllian am: But how would we know that it's being used effectively if there isn't something to aim for? dr frank atherton: Which brings you back to the question about evaluation. sian gwenllian am: Yes, but without a target, how can you properly evaluate? If you don't know what you're trying to do, how can you properly evaluate? Anyway, you're open to suggestions about having a target, which is great. Would you agree that Government could use the revenue that's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to—? dr frank atherton: Well, of course, there are some consequentials that are coming to the Welsh Government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks. That funding, of course, is less than we had anticipated, and that reflects, actually, a success story because industry is reformulating, and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease, which is a good thing. I'm not personally in favour of hypothecation, I think I'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource. And when I think about obesity, I don't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source, but I think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general, and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular. Could you give us any kind of figure? dr frank atherton: I'm sorry, could you repeat the question? sian gwenllian am: You say that there is less money that's come in through these consequentials from the levy, can you mention some sort of figure? dr frank atherton: The figure that I have in mind is about £56 million that's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period. When the sugar levy was first brought in, there was some modelling at UK level about what level of revenue that would bring, but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks, the total amount available to the UK is less and hence our consequentials are less. nathan cook: Yes, I was going to say, there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in April, and the original forecast was £520 million a year. So, I think that shows the amount of work that's been done by industry around reformulation. sian gwenllian am: And the consequentials of that? That is the consequential—£150 million. sian gwenllian am: Yes, so what's the Welsh consequential? lynne neagle am: Fifty-six. Anyway, it's a good sum of money and you're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million. So, obviously, you know, we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme. dr frank atherton: Well, the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address, and I think as Nathan has said, there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system, and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible. Will there be a need for some additional resource? There may well be, and that's a question that we'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with Ministers about the level of resourcing. lynne neagle am: Can I just ask on that before Siân moves on? What assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other UK nations? Because my understanding is that the money is being used in other UK nations to directly impact on obesity. Have you given any consideration to—? As I understand it, that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes, including the transformation programme, and what I found very odd, really, was vaccination, which is surely the core business of the NHS. Have you got any view on that? dr frank atherton: I'm not sure I understand your point, Chair, in terms of the link between the consequentials from—. Are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about—? lynne neagle am: Yes, because in other nations, it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity, whereas, we've kind of put it here in Wales into the general pot and it's being used to fund a plethora of different things. My preference—it's a personal view—is that hypothecation doesn't really help us too much. , what we need to look at is whether the programmes, the sorts of programmes that are being funded in England, or indeed in Scotland, are working effectively, and if they are, are they being delivered here in Wales? We have looked very carefully at the plans that England and Scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight, and we've made a comparison with what we're doing in Wales, and our ambition in Wales is to go further than those nations, in many ways. But I come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system, indeed, about how much money, overall, are we putting into prevention. lynne neagle am: No, I recognise that, and I think we're talking about additional resource. suzy davies am: I was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying, 'Here's a sugar levy', and 'It's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier.' Going into a pot, it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place. So, I take your overall point, but in terms of the people who we're trying to help in all this, actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful. You're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan, how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners, avoiding a situation where it's everyone's role, but nobody's responsibility? How are you going to avoid that? dr frank atherton: It's a very important question, and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that, around leadership and drive nationally. You may notice, by the way, that we've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy, because I think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in Wales. But leadership will be really important, and we will need some sort of structure to lead this, to provide oversight. I'm not a great believer in creating new structures, so we do need something that will give that drive, but the leadership comes from the top down. And then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this, but it goes way beyond the public sector, of course, because we have to work with industry, and we have to work with communities, and we have to work with the public on this. Interestingly, we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care, but also involving the third sector and some members of the public, around how can we drive prevention more generally. It wasn't specifically on obesity, but of course obesity came up because it's such a pressing issue. This question of governance was discussed quite extensively, and we do have governance systems, of course, in Wales. We have public services boards, we have regional partnership boards, and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important. But I'd like to see—and I know I'm a public health professional, so I know that only maybe 10 per cent, 15 per cent, possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system; but I would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well. So I'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this. So, we'll need some sort of national oversight, absolutely, but we need local ownership and local leadership, too. Which Minister do you believe it should be accountable to, or, given the complexity of obesity, should the board be directly accountable to the First Minister? dr frank atherton: Ultimately, the First Minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this. It is often framed as a health issue, and the Minister, Vaughan Gething, has a strong personal commitment to this, I know. We've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that, so there's a link there. It does cut across all portfolios, and so this is an issue that I have discussed with Cabinet, and that collective ownership is really important, and will be, because it can't just sit in one domain. I think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry, and I would see health as—I work within health, so I'm perhaps biased, but I would see health as leading this, but it needs broad ownership across Government. janet finch-saunders am: I know my colleague Siân Gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things, but I know in Wales we're not too good at collecting data. What data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan's objectives? dr frank atherton: Well, of course, our main data source is the child measurement programme, which collects information on children entering school aged four or five. Well, I'm sure you're familiar with the statistics, but it'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: Could I just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that? dr frank atherton: The last survey was just last year. dr frank atherton: So, it's pretty up to date, and what it shows—. It's not getting radically worse—there's always statistical variation in these things—but it's not getting any better. And, for the first time last year, we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese, but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese, severely obese. So we have a figure for that for the first time, which is about 12 per cent, which is quite shocking, in a way. Does that answer your question? janet finch-saunders am: Yes, but how will any gaps in your data be addressed? dr frank atherton: Well, one of the questions that are often asked is: could we measure more on a longitudinal basis? By that in England, for example, children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12., that kind of age group. I think that would be helpful to us in Wales, and it's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that. Obviously, that would have significant resource implications, not just for the funding, but also for schools and for the system to deliver it. But it's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier. nathan cook: And the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study, which has been released, for 14 and 15-year-olds. We're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data, looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well, which will be really helpful. lynne neagle am: Can I just ask about the child measurement programme? The strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in Wales. Can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data? dr frank atherton: I touched on that just now, but personally I do think it would be helpful to have more information. It's always the case, There's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information. We know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it, but we don't really have a very clear understanding, in Wales at least, of the point at which children start to become overweight. Although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults, we don't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are. So, it would help us to have some better understanding, which would help to direct some of our initiatives. We'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation, and it's something that we need to give thought to,  but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that, of course. In the draft plan, some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks, and that sort of thing. Do you think that, if we go down that road, there's going to be time within this Assembly to introduce such legislation? And, if not, what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation? dr frank atherton: It may well be that there are things in Wales that we might wish to legislate on, and you've mentioned two of them, and they're good examples. We would, obviously, need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and, in a way, we need to mirror what's happening in England and in Scotland to some degree around the consultations they're having on energy drinks. We also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that. The timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures, and I come back to the point that legislation, of course, is one of the tools that we've got—we need to deploy them all. We've heard from the Government, on other calls for legislation, that the programme's very tight, certainly for this term, so I was just wondering whether we might get that in, but okay. If I turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of; I'd just welcome your view on this, because, when we discussed with stakeholders, we talked about whether the planning system, for instance, could be used to, as an example, restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on. Would that be a measure that you would support, something like that? dr frank atherton: I think it's definitely something we want to look at and, of course, that question is asked in the consultation, so we would like to know people's views on that. I think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively. I've discussed with Nathan on a number of occasions, with planning colleagues in Welsh Government and in local authorities, about the art of the possible, let's say. I was very interested to see, up in the north-east, some time ago, that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools, or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high. So, that gave me comfort, because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively. I think my view at the moment is that the jury's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they're going to be. But the fact that we have some initiatives around the UK does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then, if it is shown to be beneficial, to think about that here in Wales, yes. Of itself, it wouldn't address the problem, but, added to other initiatives, I guess it would. Can I just ask you briefly, then, about community sport infrastructure and, in particular, of new schools? So, Welsh Government, as you know, has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme. What we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently, particularly headteachers, was that, in some of the new schools that have been built, we haven't had changing rooms and toilet facilities, for instance, built into the new buildings. So, if we're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public, actually, more active, do you think that's something that we ought to be building in? Again, not your particular direct area of responsibility, but something that you might have an input into, is that, when we're developing schools, we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public. Is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around? dr frank atherton: Well, it's certainly a fascinating area and one that I think has a lot of potential. You're right to raise it in the context of schools, and I can understand why this committee would, but I think it goes beyond that, actually, into all developments in the public sector and how they're developed and whether we're building health into our environment, which perhaps is your starting point. One of the things that I was really pleased to see in terms of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool, and we're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through Government, but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using. And so I would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions. If you apply that kind of lens and you take the point, which is inherent in your question, I think, that schools are not just for kids, they're for communities, then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way. So, on a personal basis, I would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres. There are all kinds of barriers in there, and I understand all of that, and it's not really my field, exactly as you say, but, as a matter of principle, I think it's a good one to pursue. Yes, perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment, I think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well, so I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be. But, in particular, I was struck with what you said about local leadership, and I just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question, which is about the foundation phase. You're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase, which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity. I'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment. Is it something that's come on the radar for the board? Is it something you're thinking about? And, if so, who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit? Because this is education, not health, and—. dr frank atherton: Well, look, I've got to confess to you, I'm not an educationist, and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that I have been asked to give a deal of consideration to, and it hasn't really been discussed, I don't believe, in the context of development of the strategy. If there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation, which I presume you'll be making, then we'd be happy to consider that. We have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce isn't the right word, but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented, because you're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life. That's in the preschool; it's also in the home of course, and then later in the school. So, we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that's exactly why we need the consultation. nathan cook: But I would say, through that scheme as well, we've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well. So, I think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know, how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important. What I'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level, which will be contained within the foundation phase. And while you're quite right—obviously, parents have a role in this, or families—there will be, particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum, certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things. And that's why I asked you about local leadership, because, if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase, it's going to fail further up the school years as well. I think it might be something that the board might want to consider here, because at some point there'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum, and whether it's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools. So, this connection, I think, is quite an important one, and, if the strategy development board could consider that, I think it would be very helpful, because this doesn't exist in a vacuum. dr frank atherton: Well, I'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy. suzy davies am: Because we will want to know who to ask: 'you're the accountable person—why has something worked, or not worked?' We will need to know that at some point. dr frank atherton: Just building on Nathan's point, some of the schools—I know it's schools rather than the preschools, and I take your point, but some of the schools we've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership. I remember the Minister actually at the launch, and one of the schools was represented there, and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating, and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was, 'Well, why not everywhere?', so that probably speaks to your question. lynne neagle am: And have you had any discussions, then, with education officials around things like teacher training and CPD, because you'll be aware the Health and Social Care Committee has made a number of recommendations in this area? It's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way, isn't it? dr frank atherton: Well, we certainly discuss with education colleagues in Welsh Government. There's more we need to do in terms of that, because you're absolutely right: there's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important, but elsewhere as well; it's about how do we really make every contact count, you know, that construct. So, everybody who's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this; everybody who works in education, whether it's the old—. Do we still have dinner ladies? Or teachers, you know, they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can. And, actually, I see them, Chair, as a really essential part of the public health workforce. Suzy, are you going to do your curriculum one? suzy davies am: Well, I've bound it in together, but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this, they're already under a range of pressures: is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not? Or should that local leadership lie somewhere else? I don't expect you to pin down a person today. dr frank atherton: I wouldn't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight. That would clearly be nonsense, wouldn't it? But they are part of the solution, and so the accountability lies further up the chain, doesn't it? The question I think we would have, and public services boards might well ask, and the local education authorities may well ask, is: how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours? suzy davies am: Okay, thank you. hefin david am: Is that all right, Chair? lynne neagle am: You've got the floor, Hefin. What would that look like? dr frank atherton: Just in terms of the physical activity, I have to say it's a really important dimension and we need to move further on. We know not enough of our children are physically active and they're not meeting the various guidelines, so it's really important. It does have an impact on healthy weight, but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation, in terms of mental health issues, et cetera, you know. nathan cook: I'd just say that one thing we have got in train is, obviously, Sport Wales, Public Health Wales and Natural Resources Wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently. So, one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools, the Welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we're already delivering as well. hefin david am: With that in mind, I'm going to confess to you, chief medical officer, I did anything in school I could to avoid physical education lessons. Yet, two weeks ago, I played for the Assembly rugby team—I wanted to get that in. How can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that—? I felt completely alienated in school. dr frank atherton: Well, you're right, and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life, and that's great if they do that. The sad reality is that many people don't, and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off, particularly for girls, of physical activity towards the teenage years. , at the heart of it, it's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people. Sometimes that's easier, I sense, for boys than for girls, but we need to tailor things to different audiences. hefin david am: Yes, that's the trick, isn't it? It's about finding out what children enjoy doing. It's not just about elite sports; it's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports, and that partnership with Public Health Wales that Nathan talked about is really important, because we need a population approach to driving physical activity. hefin david am: So, do you think, with that in mind, we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education? dr frank atherton: Again, I'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance. And finally, with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools, do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils? dr frank atherton: I don't have a personal view on that. I think it's the quality of the food that kids are getting, whether that comes from home or through school, and whether it's free or whether it's paid for. The question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level. I think that's a— hefin david am: So, you think that's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet. dr frank atherton: I think it's important that children have access to food, absolutely, if that's your question, but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what's in that food offer. I've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency, where they've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really, really good produce in the meals. And, to be honest, I've been very surprised and shocked at what I've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches. Nobody can really police, and I wouldn't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch, so if there is data out there to suggest that there's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all, then there is some merit to be said for what Hefin is—. Would you be willing to carry out any research? dr frank atherton: So, your point about food that's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one, and I've talked to some headteachers as well about this. We could go down a route of guidance and prohibition, but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and I don't really see that as my role or Government's role, and I don't think it's effective either. Do you remember—? You must have seen on tv—I think it was in Scotland; I don't know if it's happened in Wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings. What I have seen, though, is some really good innovative practice in schools where, for example, they reward children for bringing the healthy options. Schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box. So, I've seen some of those approaches that have transformed, actually, the offer of what comes in school boxes. So, my point to the question was: isn't there some merit, perhaps, about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools? dr frank atherton: Yes. The draft plan commits, doesn't it, to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations? I appreciate this is a consultation, but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment, just to give us a bit of steer? nathan cook: It's mainly on sugar content, so, obviously, they don't adhere to current Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition guidelines around sugar levels. So, what we'd want to consider is, you know, what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that, as well, if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well. So, I think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it. janet finch-saunders am: The 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway. What are the time frames for this review, and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people? dr frank atherton: We do have a pathway for managing overweight, and that's been in place since about 2010, I believe, and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences. We've challenged Public Health Wales; we've asked Public Health Wales to undertake a review of that pathway, and they are going through that process now. nathan cook: We were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in October because, obviously, what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like. dr frank atherton: The second point of your question about what are the essential elements, they are already there; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they're properly delivered. But it's a tiered approach, so, having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that. And then, if children are overweight, it's a question about how they're identified. There are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children, so there may be an issue there. But when children are running into issues around weight, what kind of interventions can be put in, either through primary care or through communities through health visitors, et cetera? And then of course we do have—and we've started to shine a light on this, haven't we—the very overweight children. I don't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those. So, I think there's something about looking at our whole pathway, mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed, and then thinking about what is our provision in Wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best. The draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days, but it doesn't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes. Are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children's healthy weight behaviours, particularly in the first 1,000 days? dr frank atherton: Well, the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives, as I'm sure you'd agree. We are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do. There are a number of things, the sorts of programmes you've mentioned, that I think could be more effective. We know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and, indeed, to go on to be obese adults. If there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take, then we'd be delighted to hear what they are, but those are the ones that have jumped out so far. nathan cook: Can I just say—? One of the proposals we're looking for is, obviously, we know that during pregnancy it's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers. We know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives, wanting the best for their child and their families. So, what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward. But we know our Healthy Start scheme is also a good lever for us, just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well. Finally, we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices, particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks. Could the Welsh Government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily? dr frank atherton: Well, you've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population. It absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities, and that's something that should really concern us all. So, it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands. So, it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier. We do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity, but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives, and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty. There's no doubt in my mind—I'm a public health professional—and there's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand. In terms of what we can do through this particular consultation, there are some things in there about providing better access, but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health, their impact will necessarily be limited. lynne neagle am: Just finally from me, then, you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count, but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to. Is that a situation that you recognise and what, really, can we do to improve that situation? dr frank atherton: Well, it depends what you mean as to where to refer to. What we're seeing across the NHS is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your GP, it's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals. Would I like to see more dietetic support, for example, in that setting? Absolutely I would. I think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier, about access to that kind of advice and support, which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues. So, that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to, I think, your point about, 'Well, where do people go when they have problems with their weight?' That's true for adults and it's true for children as well. Well, can I thank you both very much for your attendance? It's been a really productive session. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the committee, because getting some input into the consultation from children's perspectives, this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee on CAMHS tier 4 provision. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services also on CAMHS in-patient provision. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales to the Minister for Education on qualifications for the new curriculum. Paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the Minister for Education on the development of the new curriculum. Paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the Minister for Education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code. Paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the Minister for Education seeking clarification on the response to our Brexit report. Paper to note 8 is a letter from the Equality and Human Rights Commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee, which has been offered. Paper to note 9 is a letter from the Chair of the Petitions Committee on a national taskforce for children’s mental health. Paper to note 10 is a letter to the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union from the children’s commissioners for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on the implications of Brexit for children. There are a few that I'd like to return to in private, but are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear? alastair birch: Bore da—bore da, bawb. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure. Nothing to add at this stage, no? sally jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful? sally jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill? sally jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion. huw david: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales. sally jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. [Laughter.] dawn bowden am: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far? huw david: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed. sally jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it? sally jenkins: We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that— dawn bowden am: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections. alastair birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families. dawn bowden am: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it? alastair birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented? sally jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you? huw david: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales. dawn bowden am: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill? huw david: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation. dawn bowden am: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas. sally jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. There have been headlines that have said, 'Is it increased austerity?' That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to. alastair birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements. dawn bowden am: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools? alastair birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also—. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts. lynne neagle am: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked? sally jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: What, if a child is being smacked now? sally jenkins: Yes. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult. sally jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about—we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that 'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.' It also says, 'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition—' so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.' To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted? sally jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families' lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. janet finch-saunders am: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services—I know in my own authority—in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society—we don't want the two to be out of kilter. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC. Are there any comments from anyone else? huw david: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: Yes, where's that line. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in—we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions? sally jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. janet finch-saunders am: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated. lynne neagle am: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on? sally jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It’ll be where the level of harm that’s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services. janet finch-saunders am: I’m pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they’ve been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I’ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: But if you're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: And are they qualified people that are doing this? sally jenkins: Yes, absolutely. huw david: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it’s a multi-agency assessment. janet finch-saunders am: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked? sally jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. lynne neagle am: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover. huw david: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example— sally jenkins: Or prevention. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home, ‘There’s no role for children’s social services’, because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. And that’s a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it’s happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it’s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members. lynne neagle am: And are those services there, Huw? Because I’m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I’m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services. huw david: There’s not enough of those services, and, obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they’re only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we’ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months’ time, and that could escalate. And what I’d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. sally jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it’s not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child. alastair birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority—and it’ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o’clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that. janet finch-saunders am: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services? sally jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. janet finch-saunders am: Are they overstretched at the moment? sally jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted? alastair birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. It says in 'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that's what we're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into 'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure—and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw—that the services are key for families. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base—we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust? alastair birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust—it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually, 'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.' Some of the NFAs—the ones that don't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. The trust in the professionals—it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Siân Gwenllian. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work? sally jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense. sian gwenllian am: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that? huw david: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make—[Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: That's why I'm asking. huw david: I don't know whether that is necessary—I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent. But is it clear who would pay for all of that? huw david: I've suddenly changed my mind—[Laughter.] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers—absolutely. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin. hefin david am: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that? sally jenkins: I don't think so, no. hefin david am: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services—or doesn't? sally jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services—that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that. hefin david am: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. And I agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions. hefin david am: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services? sally jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into—. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable? sally jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Siân— lynne neagle am: Okay. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough? sally jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are. huw david: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced. sian gwenllian am: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that, 'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then, 'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.' We have to get the costs, surely. huw david: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.

The legislation aims to clarify that it does not intend to criminalize parents, and the responsibility for raising awareness on this matter was discussed. Sally Jenkins suggested that drivers should play a key role in raising awareness through various means such as preventative and universal services. The question of whether this awareness should be included in the Bill and who should bear the cost was also debated. Huw David expressed uncertainty about including it in the Bill but acknowledged its worth considering. It was agreed that Welsh Government Ministers should have a duty in this regard. The liberal government was criticized for limiting scrutiny of their spending and avoiding accountability by locking down Parliament. The Prime Minister was accused of refusing to hold a first ministers meeting and negotiate to pass a bill. While there was no exact evaluation, Dr. Frank Atherton believed that a strong evaluation was necessary. The draft strategy estimated an investment of £8 million to £10 million per year, with a focus on extending different sources. Dr. Frank Atherton emphasized the importance of both local and national leadership. Kirsty Williams stated that individual interventions of PDG should only target children eligible for free school meals, but schools may use PDG funding for universal interventions. PDG has been used to train all teachers in the concept of growth mindset. Other approaches to nurturing talented children, such as the "window on the world bus" funded by schools, were also mentioned. Kirsty Williams mentioned ongoing discussions about finding a way to collect data on children, although parents cannot be forced to disclose such information. The aim is to create a dataset to track children's educational attainment, involving not only education but also social services and the health service.

Summarize the discussions on awareness raising, evaluation, investment, responsibility, and the dataset on tracking adopted children. What were the accusations against the Prime Minister and the Government? How do the experts consider the appropriateness of the targeted money?

Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance? kirsty williams am: I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020? kirsty williams am: Okay. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire? claire bennett: Yes. sian gwenllian am: You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. kirsty williams am: The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me— kirsty williams am: Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. Some of the feedback that we've had is that— sian gwenllian am: So, will you be adding to those? kirsty williams am: Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention. Will they include mental health and well-being? kirsty williams am: Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out. lynne neagle am: They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law. kirsty williams am: Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system. kirsty williams am: Claire, am I explaining it okay? claire bennett: Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school. sian gwenllian am: Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying— kirsty williams am: So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. kirsty williams am: Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee— kirsty williams am: We're assuming so. sian gwenllian am: Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said? kirsty williams am: Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education— sian gwenllian am: Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it? kirsty williams am: Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response? claire bennett: It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education. And your response? kirsty williams am: And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that? kirsty williams am: Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. sian gwenllian am: —actually implemented in September— kirsty williams am: In 2022. kirsty williams am: And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David. hefin david am: Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton? kirsty williams am: I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap. And how do you respond, then—? , it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils? kirsty williams am: Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools. hefin david am: What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical. kirsty williams am: As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them. hefin david am: So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'. kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. hefin david am: Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' kirsty williams am: Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems. hefin david am: It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that? kirsty williams am: Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made— hefin david am: Bridges have been built. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on. hefin david am: I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv. kirsty williams am: And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know. hefin david am: And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. steve davies: As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform. kirsty williams am: The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay. hefin david am: When did that take place? kirsty williams am: Where? hefin david am: When. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know— suzy davies am: This isn't about assessment. suzy davies am: So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales? kirsty williams am: Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content— suzy davies am: Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this. steve davies: In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—? claire bennett: I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years. kirsty williams am: And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward. suzy davies am: Can I just have a quick—? lynne neagle am: Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough? kirsty williams am: I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. kirsty williams am: You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum. kirsty williams am: There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'? kirsty williams am: The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out— claire bennett: Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically. kirsty williams am: If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?' lynne neagle am: Okay. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools. sian gwenllian am: Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now? steve davies: I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. dawn bowden am: I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project? kirsty williams am: Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. dawn bowden am: So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals? lynne neagle am: Excellent, concise question. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. suzy davies am: Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming. suzy davies am: Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those? kirsty williams am: Oh, yes. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately? kirsty williams am: Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes? kirsty williams am: To accountability? suzy davies am: Yes. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors. suzy davies am: And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think? kirsty williams am: Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation. kirsty williams am: Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures? kirsty williams am: Well, because we will still—. kirsty williams am: Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated? kirsty williams am: Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn— suzy davies am: All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that? kirsty williams am: Yes, schools— steve davies: The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. steve davies: We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. kirsty williams am: And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn. lynne neagle am: Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum? kirsty williams am: Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum? kirsty williams am: Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period. kirsty williams am: Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded. sian gwenllian am: Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource? kirsty williams am: We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools? kirsty williams am: Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. sian gwenllian am: With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests? kirsty williams am: Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum— sian gwenllian am: Okay, so it's the timing. sian gwenllian am: So, later on, maybe when this is embedded— kirsty williams am: I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. kirsty williams am: There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally. sian gwenllian am: So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA. kirsty williams am: Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this. janet finch-saunders am: Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity? kirsty williams am: Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute. janet finch-saunders am: How will you monitor it? kirsty williams am: Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now. As we've just said— janet finch-saunders am: How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity? kirsty williams am: Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date? kirsty williams am: Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment. suzy davies am: So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail? kirsty williams am: Okay. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. suzy davies am: And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way. sian gwenllian am: I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear? lynne neagle am: Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?<doc-sep>bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): Honourable members, I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 15thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. I will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up here on either side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. For those joining by video conference, I'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you need to be on the English channel for interpretation, and if you want to speak French, you should do so on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. Over the past few days, we've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border, but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems. They are a result of systems that far too often condone, normalize, perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour. The calls for justice, for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities, because anti-black racism is happening here, everywhere in Canada, every single day. I'm also talking about microaggressions, which many of us may not even see. When it comes to being an ally, I have made serious mistakes in the past, mistakes that I deeply regret and continue to learn from. I want to thank my colleagues, community leaders and fellow Canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power. I'm not perfect, but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing. It's not an excuse to not step up, stand up for each other, be an ally. I know that for so many people listening right now, the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician. I'm not here today to describe a reality I do not know or to speak to a pain I have not felt. Since coming to office, our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism, systemic discrimination and injustice across the country. We have made significant investments to enable the Public Health Agency of Canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma. We have also created the anti-racism secretariat, which has an envelope of $4.6million, to address systemic barriers, such as employment, justice and social participation, that perpetuate injustice. While we've made some progress, there is still so much more to do, because here are the facts in Canada: Anti-black racism is real. Chair, every Canadian who has felt the weight of oppression, every student who has the courage to demand a better future, every person who marches and posts and reads and fights, from Vancouver to Montreal to Halifax, expects more than the status quo. We're ready to work with our opposition colleagues, community leaders and Canadians to make our country a more just and fair place. Racism never has a place in this country, and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast. Over the past week, we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of George Floyd in the United States. No one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed, ignored by other members of law enforcement. No one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin, especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all. Our nation has benefited immensely from great Canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make Canada a better country: Lincoln Alexander, elected as a Conservative in 1968, was the first black member of Parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister; John Ware was born into slavery in South Carolina but, following the American Civil War, was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to Alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province; Josiah Henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in Ontario; and of course, Viola Desmond challenged segregation in Nova Scotia. Black Canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions; they have also represented Canada with excellence and pride on the world stage, like Harry Jerome, who represented Canada in three Olympic Games and won a bronze medal in 1964. He would go on to become a teacher in British Columbia, once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation. Throughout our history, black Canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow Canadians, bravely serving around the world in our armed forces. While there are many things we can point to in our history with pride, that is not to say that we have a perfect record, nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an American problem. Canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that cannot be ignoredsadly, not just in our past. No one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism or extremism of any kind. Millions of people are protesting peacefully across the United States and in Canada, and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence. Chair, that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism and extremism of any kind. We are all created in the image and likeness of God, and because of that, we are all equal. Canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations, Inuit and Mtis people. Waves of newcomers have come to Canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values, democratic institutions, the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights. Everyone comes here because Canada is built on solid values, democratic institutions, and respect for the rule of law, as well as for fundamental, universal human rights. There are those who say that diversity is our strength, and that is true, but it doesn't quite capture the full picture. It is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law, regardless of your race or ethnic background; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people. Together, generations of Canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built Canada to truly the greatest country on earth, the true north strong and free. To ensure that our people remain free, we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms, including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in Canada and around the world. As John Diefenbaker said, I am a Canadian...free to speak without fear, free to worship...in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, free to choose those who shall govern my country. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. At a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who, despite everything, take to the streets to express that outrage, we here in politics will have to be careful, once again, about the words we use. Indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them. Today, our dutyand I would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity, our sadness, our indignation and our anger, but above alland in saying this, I'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in Quebec and the UnitedStatesour friendship. Every time we talk about this, a small part of me surfaces, that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist. It is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history, which in turn shape cultures. Racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others, difference. I am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims. I believe that the Canadian government is not racist, that the Quebec government is not racist, and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either. I believe, however, that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us. It should not denounce individuals, but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them. We don't play politics at the funeral doors: we gather our thoughts, and let indignation and sadness be expressed. I'm proposing a very concrete measure, which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially Haitian, especially black, but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the Quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line. He has the power and the duty to do so, and if he needs Parliament, let's do it tomorrow or right now. In the meantime, our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them. GeorgeFloyd's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard. Anti-black racism isn't only in the UnitedStates; it's here in Canada, too. Systemic racism against blacks, indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well: racial profiling, economic inequality, social inequality, discriminatory hiring, trivialization of violence, excess incarceration, and so on. When the time comes to act, they don't have the courage, they don't have the will to act. When people around the world saw the killing of George Floyd, it left all of us shaken to our core. It was chilling, the casual violence of anti-black racism, the callous taking of another human being's life. This is just as much a Canadian problem as well, and something that continues to exist across our country. Indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in Canada. I think about Stewart Kevin Andrews, a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in Winnipeg. The anger and frustration are about this: How many more people need to die before there's action? How many more speeches will be made? How many more protests need to happen before something is done? How many more times will people plead to breathe? How many more times will they plead to live? What we're talking about is basic human dignity. How many more voices have to ask, demand, plead, beg for basic human dignity? People are angry. Why do they need to keep on asking? Why do black people, why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans? Why? You know, people are done with pretty speeches, particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to. I'm standing in a hall of power, the chamber of the Commons, with a Prime Minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this. The Prime Minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something. We're going to have to come up with those solutions together, but there are certainly some things we do know. Martin Luther King said, True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice. Killer Mike extolled that people should plan, plot, strategize, organize and then mobilize. Cardi B put it this way: Another way for the people to take powerI don't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting. I call on the Prime Minister, in this hall of power: If the Prime Minister believes that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country? If the Prime Minister believes that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies? If the Prime Minister believes, truly believes, that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country? If the Prime Minister truly believes that black lives matter, will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions? Will he commit to ensuring that there's access to education and to health resources? The Prime Minister has the power to do all these things right now. If the Prime Minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter, then similarly the Prime Minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people, the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people. If the Prime Minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter, the Prime Minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court; the Prime Minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. If the Prime Minister believes that indigenous lives matter, he could ensure that there's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now. People are angry because they're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now. I stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the Algonquin peoples, and again to say meegwetch, on a day like this when we're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we cannot tolerate racism, not in this country. One is COVID-19 and the other one we've tolerated far too long, which is race-based hatred, hate speech and anti-black racism. I want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say, Black lives matter. What we are seeing in the murder of George Floyd is exactly as my colleague from the Bloc Qubcois said: George Floyd is not a victim of racism; he is another victim of racism. The first time a black man was killed when his last words were I can't breathe was in 2014, with Eric Garner. Imagine what she's going through, because George Floyd died on video also saying, I can't breathe, and the people who were stopping him from breathing, his killers, are the police. In George Floyd's murder, at least one killer has been charged, but it doesn't do anything to ease the pain, nor, as my friend from the NDP said, does it quench the thirst for justice, because that's what people are crying out for. I had to look it up because I thought, when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck? He was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck, in February. Breonna Taylor of Louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there. What on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again? I looked at a site called Just Security and I thought these words from reporter Mia Bloom, who happens to be Canadian, were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the United States of America, but also in Canada: driving while black, jogging while black, reporting while black, bird watching while black, selling lemonade while black can get you killed. I want to go back to the words reporting while black, because this is something else we've seen in the last four days that we've never seen before, which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police. It seems that, in this place, when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism, we do it in a kind of cycle. We talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis. Just within the last day, the report came down on the killing of Dale Culver in Prince George at the hands of the Prince George RCMP. This indigenous young man was 35 years old, and he was pepper-sprayed until he couldn't breathe. We denounce anti-Semitism when we see anti-Semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an Ottawa rabbi's home. We denounce it, but can we get to the root of it? As the honourable leader of the Conservative Party mentioned, in recent days we're seeing anti-Asian racism on the increase. We have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know, as the Prime Minister said, we're not perfect, but it doesn't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out. I am sitting so close to my friend here, our minister, Ahmed HussenI say your name out loud, but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding, that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they're a little worried when the kids are around. It sounds exactly like what the Prime Minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see. In looking at these things, there is something I want to say, when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder, what we can do about it. We have to speak out and we have to say that the President of the United States is fomenting hatred and violence and it's shameful and shocking that he would grab a Bible, then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a Washington street so that Donald Trump could pose with a Bible in front of an Episcopal church. The Episcopal Bishop of Washington had this to say, because she is a good ally: In no way do we support the President's incendiary response to a wounded, grieving nation. In faithfulness to our Saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love, we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of George Floyd. We must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, the report on which languishes a year later. If we're looking for real action, things we can do in this place, I call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in Canada and identify them for what they are, a terrorist threat in our midst. We must make sure they're not in our police forces, because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun, it's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform. Please, God, we love each other, take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin, and pray for the United States of America. It's a country being ripped apart, and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring. Pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys, the indigenous baby girls and boys, the Asian kids. bruce stanton): We will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes. I'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. It's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year. A recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water. Washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment. This petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of Canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines. Given what we've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in Ontario and Quebec, the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living, not assisted dying. Chair, it's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action. There is a call to respect the Wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle RCMP exclusion zones. I am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the Wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place. I would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the House if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): Mr. Chair, I continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis. Dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the Sunshine Coast community task force to coordinate local government, non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community. Social enterprises banded together to form the Sunshine Coast food service response, which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks. Persephone Brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands. The 101 Brewhouse + Distillery and Bruinwood Distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers. COVID-19, like all crises, has highlighted true leadership in our society, and I am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this. Chair, the Prime Minister and his cabinet have shown they're unwilling to put the protection and safety of Canadians ahead of political interests. Either purposely or because of ignorance, he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence. The Minister of Public Safety said he wouldn't target hunters, but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence. They have ignored our rampant drug crisis, and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes, all while saying they take these issues very seriously. Today they tell us they are banning a new Liberal-invented type of firearm, a military-style assault rifle. The Liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters, farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs, gangs, illegal smuggling and crime. Chair, it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity. On that note, today I wish to recognize the work of the Humber River Hospital in my riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek and to congratulate them on the success of their Humber front-line support fund and PPE drive. Not only have they been on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy, but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond, the Humber River Hospital has raised over $1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment. This will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy. I thank all those brave workers at the hospital, and I thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause. member for AbitibiTmiscamingue, Mr.Lemire, to take the floor. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. For several years, he had been using his fight against cancer, which he led with the help of natural products only, to ensure cancer services and care were improved, particularly in regions far from major centres. Mayor of Preissac, in the RCM of Abitibi, StephanLavoie passed away yesterday. I would like to extend my condolences to his wife, Anabelle, to his entire family and especially to his daughter, Astrid, who is only 20months old. Through his humanism, StephanLavoie was a warrior, a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us. My thoughts also go out to the citizens of Preissac, to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy, and to the leaders of the Abitibi community. In our first conversation, he said to me, and I hope the House will echo it forever, that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): It is with great sadness that I rise today to pay tribute to Tristan Roy, after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago. Born in Saint-Fabien-sur-Mer, Tristan became a pillar of the MontRoyal community in1997 when he bought the old MontRoyal newspaper. When the city's oldest newspaper, the TMR Weekly Post ceased operations, Tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the TMR Poste de Mont-Royal. He created a truly bilingual newspaper, ensuring that TMR residents could receive their news in both French and English. I join Mayor Philippe Roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to Tristan's wife, Anne-Marie, his daughter, Aril, and his son, Lancelot. We all considered Tristan to be a friend, an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): Mr.Chair, if you didn't already know, people from Beauce are proud. There is Marie-PhilipPoulin of Beauceville, who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year, or AntonyAuclair of Notre-Dame-des-Pins. AntonyAuclair said, in a CBC article, that Beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the NFL. There is also GuillaumeCouture, from Sainte-Marie, who made his mother very proud, and everyone from Beauce indirectly, on the program Les Chefs again last night. It is this same pride that I see throughout the region, with companies like Revtech Systmes, in Saint-Joseph-de-Beauce, or PuriHaze, in Sainte-Marie, which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces. There are also local purchasing initiatives such as the #onlaici campaign by the Nouvelle-Beauce chamber of commerce and industry or Achetons beauceron, by the Saint-Georges chamber of commerce. Chair, our government has shown leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic by ensuring that Canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need. The Canada emergency business account and the Canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic. Seniors received top-ups to the OAS and GIS, and families, the child care benefit. All of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of Don Valley East. I want to particularly thank Saravanaa Bhavan and Happy Pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals. Chair, even though this year's festivities for Italian Heritage Month will be done differently, the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country. Virtual events have seen Italian Canadians, through their generosity, raise over $1 million to help Italy during COVID-19. The Italian Canadian story remains one of passion, an adopted homeland filled with hard work, sacrifice and optimism. Chair, as communities begin to ease restrictions, I remain mystified that, according to this government, Parliament is not an essential service. We in the opposition have been long calling for the return of Parliament, which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines. While the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important, it is equally important to bring those voices back to Ottawa to debate, to question and to hold the government to account. The role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight. Chair, I would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of Brampton East. Khalsa Aid has been providing food supplies with the help of Sperenza Banquet Hall, which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of Brampton East. Care4Cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to Good Shepherd Ministries to lessen their load. Navraj Brar at Pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the Peel Regional Police. Aujla Salon and Spa has partnered with GlobalMedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks. I would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers, taxi drivers, grocery store clerks, nurses, doctors, paramedics and countless other front-line heroes. Thank you to everyone in Brampton East who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need. You are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as Canadians when we come together and support each other. bruce stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for WellingtonHalton Hills, Mr. They tried to give the PMO the control over this House in motion 6, and yesterday's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election. Parliament sat through two world wars, the October crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test, but not now. Parliament and this House of Commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now. Chair, these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many Canadians: sickness, losing loved ones, job losses, economic hardships, loneliness and isolation. It is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen Canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope. Mosques, churches, synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities. Whether it's providing meals to the hungry, clothing for the cold, or technology for those who need it most, these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that Canadians are known for. While there are too many groups to mention them all, I want to thank Vikas Sharma and Care4Cause out of Brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the GTA. This group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need. Chair, I rise today in honour of National Indigenous History Month to speak truth about a history of racism in Canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life, freedom, respect and dignity. Even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past April. Canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): Mr.Chair, Canada Post is literally not delivering the goods. But the postal service is an essential service, and even more so today because everything is done online, even local shopping. The current crisis partly explains the congestion, but it is mainly due to the fact that Canada Post forgot to join the 21stcentury. In the immediate term, Canada Post must deal with the delays, and to do so, it needs the help of the Government of Canada. As I said, the postal service is an essential service, and it's time to give it the importance this status imposes. This is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our GDP, our balance of trade, and whose taxes support the social programs Canadians enjoy, $108 billion in GDP, $8 billion per year in government revenues, $77 billion in trade surplus. It is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western Canadians. We're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000, including 11,000 indigenous Canadians. Bad policy cannot permanently erase the work, the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers, and their efforts to continue building a great country. Chair, today I want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at Victoria General Hospital, who are serving patients in our community here in Winnipeg South. Every day, doctors, nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most. Whether it's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using iPads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package, staff at the Vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier. I would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in Winnipeg South that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the Vic. Folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary Canadians, and it is a great honour to represent them. andrew scheer: Mr.Chair, the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, like all Canadians, I am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the Canadian Armed Forces are doing in long-term care facilities in Quebec and Ontario. We will continue to support them, but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities isn't a long-term solution. Chair, now that Bell Canada has decided to partner with Ericsson to deliver its 5G network, the Liberals will undoubtedly ban Huawei, but the Liberal inaction on Huawei is just another example of this government's weak leadership. Instead of deciding for himself a year ago, the Prime Minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him. Why couldn't the Prime Minister have shown some backbone and banned Huawei a year ago? right hon. Chair, our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts, to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community, which has been looking into this issue. We know we need to make sure that Canadian businesses, Canadians and Canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world. andrew scheer: The fact of the matter, Mr Chair, is that it hasn't. The former public safety minister, Ralph Goodale, promised in this House over a year ago that an answer on Huawei would be coming. Here we are, it's June 2, 2020, and they still haven't made a decision. Chair, the President of the Treasury Board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis. She's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. At a time when Canadians are struggling, it is disgusting that the Liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing. Will the Prime Minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank received? right hon. Chair, the mandate of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of Canada's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital. The remuneration range of the former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years. The bank is moving into its next phase of development, now under the leadership of the new board chair, Michael Sabia, and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes. Chair, as I said, the remuneration range of this former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years. In regard to further payments, we do not comment on personal HR and financial information of individuals in government. The Canada Infrastructure Bank was a Liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers. They might try to claim that it's arm's length and that they can't divulge this information, but we know that Minister Champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the Canada Infrastructure Bank's CEO. Chair, five years ago, when we first got elected, we had to turn around the underinvestment that Stephen Harper's Conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country. Even during the depths of the 2008 recession, the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, well before 1867, in what became Quebec, in New Brunswick, in Acadia, in Ontario and in the west, lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of Canada and Quebec. It can therefore be inferred that Canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of Canada. Could the Prime Minister read his answer to this question: who pays for the health transfers to the provinces? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve Canadians. In times of crisis, but also in good times, Canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need. yves-franois blanchet: Let me remind the Prime Minister that all the provinces and Quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable. Who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of Quebec and Canada? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have worked with Quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers. We have made transfers of $500million, that's halfabillion dollars, because of the recent COVID-19 crisis. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, the Conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy, and I congratulate them for that. Who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the Liberal Party of Canada? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, since this crisis began, we have made investments to protect jobs and workers, including accountants, human resources managers and receptionists. We are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now, but some companies are under threat because the Liberal Party is a little richer. Who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender? One company has been awarded a private contract, probably a foreign multinational, probably for 2021, while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in Quebec and in Canada. Who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the Government of Canada's work? right hon. We are in the process of helping workers and helping Canadians by means of measures like the Canada emergency response benefit, the Canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies, We will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together. yves-franois blanchet: Fundamentally, my impression was that, in a crisis, civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions. I see that, in this case, and in all its operations, the Government of Canada takes money, about 20% of which comes from Quebec, and gives it to a private company, possibly a foreign company, so that it can tell us what will happen, although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, Canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy. We are here for workers, we are here for families, we are here for our seniors and for our students. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, as I see it, the Prime Minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers' money, a part of which is going into his party's bank account for the next election. Is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of Quebec, a role that is currently protected by a crisis? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, all across the country, including in Quebec, people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing. We are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent. The Prime Minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that Canada is faced with. Will the Prime Minister end racial profiling in Canada against black people once and for all? right hon. Chair, this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism, systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the UN International Decade for People of African Descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone. We have made significant steps forward, but there is so much to do, and I look forward to working with all members in this House to do just that. Chair, our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized Canadians, including indigenous Canadians and black Canadians. We know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people? right hon. Chair, systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister make sure Canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of COVID-19 on racialized people, particularly indigenous and black people? right hon. Chair, not just on COVID-19 but on all ranges of data, we've made investments over the past years to Statistics Canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion. Disaggregated data will help, and we're working with provinces on the COVID-19 data. Will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-incarceration, over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people? right hon. Yes, we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized Canadians are reduced. There are many measures we're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer, to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it. I asked the Prime Minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court, and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice. We have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward. Many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that, and that has delayed the putting out of the report. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare? right hon. Chair, we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that. jagmeet singh: Will the Prime Minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water? right hon. Chair, the NDP needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years, and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring. They do not have access to clean drinking water, and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories. It would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there. Chair, we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner, and we'll continue to do that. pierre poilievre: How much does the Government of Canada owe to the People's Republic of China? hon. If the member would like to send my office questions directly, I'd be happy to provide this information. They still haven't provided answers to the questions, in particular the question regarding who owns Canada's foreign-held debt. How much of that debt is owned by lenders from the People's Republic of China? hon. We'll get to it in order, as we work through this crisis, making sure we focus on Canadians first. Chair, we'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office. Chair, moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people, how much would a 1% increase in the effective interest rate on Canada's national debt cost Canadian taxpayers? hon. I'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he'd like to send those directly to my office. Chair, we'll try a different question, then, as we're not getting any answers. Chair, I'd be happy to get this information to the member, but I would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the Government of Canada, we look at the short term, the medium term and the long term. We think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country. Chair, it turns out, according to Department of Finance officials, that less than 3% of Canada's recently added debt since March is for terms of more than five years. Why has this minister made Canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $371.5 billion of new debt he's added in the last two and a half months? hon. Chair, we continue to manage the treasury function of the Government of Canada in a responsible way, making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term, a medium term and a long term, which we've been doing as the Government of Canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well. pierre poilievre: Canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they're looking to get the best rate. How many Canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point? hon. I would make the observation that what we've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support Canadians and support Canadian families by providing them income during a time when they don't have access to income because they're actually at home. We think that has supported them in a very, very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis. pierre poilievre: Unfortunately, we will have a $1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end. How much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by, say, 1%? hon. I think the approach we've taken, with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy, has been particularly critical for enabling Canadians to get through a very challenging time. bruce stanton): The floor goes to the honourable member for Beauce, Mr.Lehoux. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, my question goes to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. Day after day, I speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, we have made commitments to producers all across the country. We have also increased our contribution to various other programs, specifically in the meat sector, for pork or beef producers, and food processors. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, I have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now. We are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60%, even if a province or territory does not participate. Through the AgriRecovery program, we have provided $50million for pork producers and $50million for beef producers. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, when will that transfer be made? Can the minister simply give us a date? That is all we are asking. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I would really like to be able to give a date, but the answer depends on each of the provinces. richard lehoux: However, Mr.Chair, the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds, whether or not the provinces add any to the program. How does the Minister of Agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by July, when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of Ministers of Agriculture to October? We have been meeting by Zoom for some time now. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I meet with my provincial colleagues every week, either by conference call or by Zoom. As for the AgriRecovery program, once again, the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40% or not, in whole or in part. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, if I understand correctly, there will be no changes to the various programs before November. The sectors of agriculture under supply management, like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency, who have been promised compensation for a long time, want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country. Our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm. I am thinking, for example, about the advances that many SMEs and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies. When will I be able to tell my constituents that reliable Internet service will be available in their homes? hon. marie-claude bibeau: I assure you that we recognize the importance of the Internet in rural regions. We are working with our colleagues, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry and the Minister of Rural Economic Development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): We'll now proceed to Mr. Chair, for the Minister of Public Safety, Minister Blair, how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since May 1? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): My understanding is that an order in council was made on May 1, and we have not made any changes to that order in council. bill blair: I suspect the member may be referring to the work that the RCMP has been doing through the Canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed. glen motz: How many .22 calibre rifles, firearms, are on that banned list? hon. The member may be referring to a weapon that the RCMP has identified as using an AR-15 frame, which of course mr. bill blair: That's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby. In fact, there was a weapon called the Blackwater AR-15, which was a real gun that was prohibited, but the toy gun, the airsoft one, was not. Why is the RCMP continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published? hon. Chair, it is a very important that the RCMP, as the agency responsible for administering the Canadian firearms program, continues to do its diligence to keep Canadians safe. glen motz: Why has there been no notice given to firearms owners, retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list? hon. Chair, it is very important that the Canadian firearms program and the RCMP continue to do the important work of ensuring that Canadians are kept safe. glen motz: How many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since May 1? hon. bill blair: Again, I do not have that information and, as the member probably knows, records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted. glen motz: How many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since May 1? Of the firearms that have been transferred, how many now are retroactively prohibited since May 1? hon. Chair, to be very clear, on May 1, by order in council, we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms, all based upon a military design. glen motz: Since that time you have added almost 700 more, and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish. If a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since May 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list, are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution? hon. bill blair: Again, the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction, and that is their decision, not ours. glen motz: The minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure. bill blair: I have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made, Mr. glen motz: Maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering. What does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan? hon. We will, however, be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat Canadians who purchased these firearms fairly. glen motz: You can't buy back something that you never owned in the first place, Mr. If this minister doesn't know the cost, maybe he's as incompetent as our Minister of Finance. I am wondering, Chair, through you, why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table? the chair: I want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the House. I'd just like to advise you and this House that our purpose is to protect the lives of Canadians, and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control. We are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers, only by our interest in keeping Canadians safe. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr. I want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable Canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week's deadline. There are millions of relieved seniors with GIS and parents with the child tax benefit and GST who now know they have a bit of time and protection and aren't to be cut off from their benefits. I'm hoping to go two for two here today, so there's no pressure to the Minister of Public Safety. I certainly support, and I think we support in this chamber, the idea of the extension for travel. However, it's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other, and there are Canadian and American children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other. After stating for months that reunifying families wasn't considered essential travel, I am thankful that he and the Prime Minister have now said that it is. Will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week, which would exempt spouses, children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation, so that we can get people and their families back together? hon. bill blair: I'd like to thank the member for what I think is a very important question and I want to assure him that I have had similar conversations with members of this House from all parties and representing all parts of the country. Because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border, any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners. Some of them, you may be aware, have expressed some concern, and we're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns. At the same time we are working very hard, and I am very hopeful that we'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many Canadians you and everyone else represents. the chair: I want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question, they should speak through the Chair and not directly to the other member. I will just note that the Canadian and American governments have worked with provinces, as we have with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, to repatriate Canadians from around the world. I believe there is a precedent and I believe there is a background there, and I think we can, through an order in council or whatever measure, get people back with their families. Can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating Canadians from other countries? hon. bill blair: Again I thank the member, because this is a very important issue and it's important to us as well. We have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem, because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised. At the same time, I think it's important to work very closely, as we have done, with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised. We are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families, and we the chair: We will go back to Mr. They spend about five months of the year in Texas and five months in Cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year. However, she couldn't come up to Canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place, and it's certainly putting a strain on them. Can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible? The three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited, that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents, and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments, they can do that and can stay with their spouse. bill blair: What I can confirm is that we're working hard to make sure we keep families together. I want to reiterate, because you raise a very important point, that when people cross the border they're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health. If the travel is deemed essential, that is an exception, but if it is not deemed essential, then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days. That's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought. the chair: Before we go to the next line of questioning, I want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other. I therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters, who are doing a really good job. The loss of the Regina International Airport would be devastating, not only to the city of Regina but also to southern Saskatchewan. The Liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals, but here is what it's not telling people: Airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years, so when an airport's revenue goes down to zero, its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero, pandemic or no pandemic. bill blair: The Minister of Transport has been working very closely with airports, large and small, right across the country. We've been in touch with each of the airports, and we've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times. We know that in some circumstances, continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible, but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing. Chair, Canada's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the Liberal government's response has been to defer their lease payments. government's CARES program is providing $10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support American airports. Will the government commit today to saving Canada's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans? hon. Chair, we have worked very hard, and continue to do so, to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country. We know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do. We're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time, because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy. Airports are vital to Canada's economy, providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $13 billion in wages and $7 billion in taxes. However, now Canada's airports are on the brink of collapse, and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90% of their revenue. Last month Joyce Carter, chair of the Canadian Airports Council, called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery. It includes the permanent elimination of ground leases, substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities. Could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the Canadian Airports Council's request? hon. bill blair: I would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve. The Minister of Transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities, large and small, right across this country on how we can continue to support them. There have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take. I believe it is clear that Canadians need our help, and we are there for Canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic. Chair, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Japan have all started free trade negotiations with the United Kingdom. We, of course, are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of Canadian businesses, and I want to assure Canadians that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the United Kingdom. I would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the Liberal Party of Canada. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): On a point of order, Mr.Chair. I am not sure that the number of employees at the Liberal Party, the Bloc Qubcois, or the Conservative Party is relevant to government management. the chair: I am not sure whether that is a point of order, but I will let Mr.Therrien continue. I would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the Liberal Party of Canada. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, I know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers. bill morneau: I do not know how many people work for the Liberal Party, but I can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy. That is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30% or more. alain therrien: They have 157MPs and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy. In an article in La Presse on May25, Liberal Party spokesman Braeden Caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program. bill morneau: I am very focused on our concern, which is to protect Canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30% or more. How many employees in the Liberal Party of Canada are threatened by the pandemic? You should know; it's your party. We want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic. alain therrien: I would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign. I would like to know how much taxpayers' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the Liberal Party of Canada. bill morneau: The emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75% of the income that employees were earning before the crisis, to a maximum of $847. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, since I am not getting an answer, let me share with you the very simple calculation I cobbled together. If we multiply that amount by threethat's three months, since it started on March15we get over $1million. That is the amount they will have put in their pockets, to be used as election loot for the Liberal Party. Given that the Liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy, will their party continue to help itself to the money? hon. the chair: Mr.Therrien, you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds. alain therrien: They have already taken $1million out of the register, so that is settled. First, are they going to pay back that $1million? Second, I hope they will not be taking another $1million by September. bill morneau: We will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis. During the previous Parliament, our government made significant investments in the CBSA and the RCMP, and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities. This is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims' groups, law enforcement and everyday Canadians called on for decades, but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe. Can the minister tell the House and the constituents of NewmarketAurora what further steps our government will take to keep Canadians safe? hon. Chair, I'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for NewmarketAurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community. Chair, building upon historic investments that we made in the last Parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs, we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen Canada's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community, including the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, have said have no place in our communities. We will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border, by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids, families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across Canada. Even during these challenging times, we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks. I have heard from many small business owners in Scarborough, from dentists to small manufacturers, who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by COVID-19. They are interested in how programs like the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business, but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords don't participate. Could the Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success, not just here in Scarborough but across Canada? hon. Chair, I want to thank the member of Parliament for her advocacy for the people of Scarborough Centre on this really important question. This is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while, at the same time, helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis. We are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times, and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75%. We will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across Canada from coast to coast to coast. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): The $4-billion Canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. It's supposed to provide up to $2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent. We know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black, indigenous and racialized people. We introduced the Canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing, people who are in core housing need, are homeless or at risk of homelessness. We hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: We will go back to Ms. Only one province has signed on, and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented. With so little federal leadership, the Canadian Alliance of Non-Profit Housing Associations has stepped up and done the work for the government. Will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need? hon. Chair, it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership. The Canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy, which will ensure people have access to a safe, affordable place to call home. The fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30% of their income on rent, and they have been hit hard by this pandemic. Aside from going forward with a housing benefit program, will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-COVID stimulus policy? hon. Chair, joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action. This is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need, people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home. We bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing, and the government has yet to provide any funding to them. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): I thank my colleague for the question, and I want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from COVID-19. Of course, we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all Canadians. We put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary, and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food. jenny kwan: No one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families. They don't have access to health care and they don't have a pathway to permanent residence. Will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you're good enough to work, you're good enough to stay? hon. Of course, that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that Canadians have access to healthy, safe and affordable food. We will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety. Chair, fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the COVID-19 crisis, and they deserve the support of all levels of government, including their own MPs. Yesterday the Liberal and NDP MPs banded together to restrict the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months. Conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support Canadians, while the Liberals and NDP refuse to do the work. When will the Prime Minister tell his MPs to get back to work for the Canadians who need their support? hon. Chair, we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work, and that's why committees are meeting regularly. I would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions, not the government. Chair, it took months for DFO to realize that fish passage on the Fraser River was blocked at Big Bar. Now that contract has tripled from $17.6 million to over $52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister's office. Chair, since we found out about the landslide at Big Bar, our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through. We know how critically important the salmon are to the Fraser River, as well as to the indigenous communities along the Fraser. So far, we've made significant progress, but we know there's more work that needs to be done. That's why we'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. Chair, the fisheries minister's mandate letter from November of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species. Canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister, and when they got a response five months later, it was devoid of any help. When will the minister follow her Prime Minister's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species? hon. We're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species. I am committed to making sure that I meet my commitments within my mandate letter, and I will have more to say on that soon. Chair, the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by Minister Blair's order in council continues to grow. Chair, to be very clear, the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat. As law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times, they have no place in our community, and we agree. Chair, I continue to hear from constituents in the North OkanaganShuswap who are unable to access supports under the Canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program. Business owners have also lost employees and can't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit. Chair, we continue to look at the programs we've put out to support Canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact. We've committed to extending the wage subsidy, and of course we're looking at all the measures we've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis. Chair, an April 1 letter confirms that Deloitte Canada has been contracted to help supply PPE. Chair, the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with Deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in China in order to have an A-to-Z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: We will go back to Mr. arnold viersen: Can the minister confirm that this was, indeed, a sole-source contract? hon. Chair, there are a number of goods that need to be procured for Canadian health care professionals to be safe, and that's exactly the chair: We'll go to Mr. Chair, I will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further, fuller response. The contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: We will go back to Mr. arnold viersen: Many of the suppliers that are in contact with Deloitte of Canada are indigenous contractors. Chair, we are in touch with indigenous suppliers, as we are with many suppliers across Canada and internationally. We are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board, and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix. arnold viersen: Many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors. Chair, the honourable member appears to have information regarding Deloitte's certification processes, which would not be outside what the government itself is doing. I encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: Go ahead, Mr. arnold viersen: Does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources? hon. I believe that Canada is in a crisis, and I am making every effort to order PPE as Canadian health care workers require. Chair, we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that Canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers, in terms of products and in terms of countries. Chair, I would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential, because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize The Chair: We go back to Mr. Chair, on Friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted. Have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between Deloitte Canada and PPE suppliers been filled? hon. Deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers, and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Mr.Chair, we have difficulty understanding the government's management of the border. The order between Canada and the United States has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in Canada if they have family here and we accept them. I find it hard to believe that the minister cannot quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now. Chair, I appreciate very much the member's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me. Chair, we're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into Canada, but to do so safely and not put other Canadians at risk. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, letting a spouse come home will not put Canadians at risk. A survey conducted in Canada reveals that a large majority of Canadians do not trust the Chinese communist regime at all and do not want Huawei in Canada. Now that the government no longer has to worry about BCE and Telus, can they say today that no other company is going to use Huawei and that Huawei will be banned from Canada for 5G? hon. pierre paul-hus: Let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that CSIS has confirmed that Huawei is unreliable as far as Canada's security is concerned. The same regime continues to lie to the world about COVID-19, block our exports, and terrorize the citizens of Hong Kong. When will the Prime Minister confirm that he is going to ban Huawei from developing 5G in Canada? It is a simple question. At the same time, the safety and security of Canada's digital environment will be of paramount consideration. We're doing the work required and we're not basing that agenda on some media report, but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account. We are engaged in robust discussions with our Five Eyes partners, including the United States, and all our security agencies. Chair, we'll do the work necessary to the chair: Mr.Paul-Hus has the floor. pierre paul-hus: The minister does not need a sheet of paper, this matter has been clear for a long time. Bell and Telus had each estimated that removing Huawei from their development would cost $1billion. Did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it? Having said that, my next question is more about the theft on May27. About 90,000surgical masks bound for the Quebec City UHC were stolen from the Toronto airport. Has the minister called for an investigation? When are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for Quebec? hon. Our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time, and they're being distributed to provinces, including Quebec. the chair: Mr.Paul-Hus, you have time to ask a 15-second question. The police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent. We understand that in delivering this benefit to a million Canadians to date, we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back, but make no mistake: Canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account, and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed. Chair, there remains a concern across Canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court recently said in an interview that amendments to the Criminal Code could allow this backlog to be addressed. Can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog, and when we can expect to see it addressed? hon. I can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts, who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law. I can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the Chief Justice of Canada, again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee, to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, weeks ago I raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system. The provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed, and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs. We're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces. rob moore: Many owners of small businesses in my riding, and indeed in all of our ridings, are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the Canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account. This is something that we've been calling for over the past several weeks, and businesses cannot wait any longer. Can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure? hon. I want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them. We are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support. I would like to highlight, though, that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support. rob moore: The lack of access to high-speed Internet remains a major issue across my home province of New Brunswick. The lack of progress and transparency on rural Internet is frustrating for residents, for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to COVID. When will a new plan for rural Internet be introduced, and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed? hon. To date, we've set aside investments to connect a million households, and there's more work to be done. We will be announcing our next steps to connect more Canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come. I look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring. rob moore: On the issue of commercial rent, how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time? hon. Chair, as the member knows and would understand, rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction. That said, we've moved forward to try to ensure that there's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both. George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Nicholas Gibbs, Colten Boushie, Tina Fontaine, Alain Magloire and Breonna Taylor were not all born on the same side of the border, but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy: racism. We cannot, here in Canada, think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour. The final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a Canadian genocide. In 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the Toronto police, and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the Montreal police force against black and indigenous people. I am asking the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, as per her mandate, what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions. If the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established, what priorities have been actioned? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): I would like to thank the member for that very important question. I will state that it is essential that we all work together, not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it. This is a resource not only for Canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well, including advancement opportunities. That's exactly why we came out with an open, transparent, merit-based appointment process: so that we can see the country's diversity reflected at the decision-making table. I can assure the member and all Canadians that my eyes are open, my ears are open and I am an ally. I cannot experience what it is to be a black Canadian, but I can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard. Why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still haven't received the payments they are owed? These people deserve justice without any delay, especially in light of COVID-19 and the added pressures facing communities. As you know, because of the exceptional circumstance of COVID-19, the class counsel, with the support of Canada, was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim. Once granted, eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $21,000 over the coming weeks. Eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis. The pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment. The lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in Canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with ALS. Can the Minister of Health commit to taking leadership on this file, removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies, and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered? hon. Of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for ALS to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of Canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all Canadians. Chair, I can't breathe and I'm tired, and today we've heard a lot of progressive words from the Prime Minister, but he hasn't really said anything. If the Prime Minister will not provide leadership in this House, will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism? hon. The open, transparent, merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting Canadians. Chair, will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries? hon. Chair, the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers, because decisions need to be based on science and evidence. It is also not lost on the black community that the former Toronto chief of police, the architect of this country's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding, was made this country's Minister of Public Safety by this Prime Minister. As the tragic consequence of the unlawful, unconstitutional and racist practices in Toronto, black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police. Does the Minister of Public Safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in Canada's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism, and will he act to immediately end it today? hon. I know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions. Chair, racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable, it's in fact unlawful. It's contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and it's contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act. We are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service. matthew green: Nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than I do. Will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police? hon. matthew green: Bill C-51 was introduced by the Conservatives and supported by the Liberals, including this Prime Minister. Each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols, which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling. Given what he has said today in the House, will this Minister of Public Safety work to repeal the changes made under Bill C-51? hon. Chair, I will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful. It's contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms; it is contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act. It cannot ever be tolerated in policing in any place in Canada, but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities, who tell us that this is still their lived experience, so there is a great deal of work left to do. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I will be sharing my time with the honourable member for Joliette. Supplementary unemployment benefits, or SUBs, give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off. A number of companies, including Soprema in Drummond, have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the SUB terms when employment insurance is converted to the CERB. However, surprise, surprise, when the employees applied for the CERB in May, they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of SUBs they have received exceeded $1,000, the CERB income limit. In addition, they must reimburse the CERB because they found that they were not eligible for it. So, what does the Minister of Finance intend to do to correct his error? the chair: We will pause for a second. I had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before I was cut off, and I would appreciate, given the seriousness of the conversation here today, if the honourable Minister of Public Safety will please answer the question: Will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding? the chair: The way I work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less, we go on to the next one, because it's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer. Chair, SUB plans that existed prior to March 15 are very much alive and in place for companies, employers and their employees. The CERB allows employers to top up an employee's wages to the maximum of a $1,000. Chair, in order to deliver this important critical benefit to Canadians, we had to go outside of the EI system. Employers can contribute as much as they want, and they were assured that this would be the case with the CERB. Let me put my question to the Minister of Finance again, in the hope that he will be the one to answer it. As we can all appreciate, delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many Canadians as possible, both those who were EI eligible and those who were outside of EI, resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): Mr.Chair, I will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits. The victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the Canada emergency response benefit, as my colleague just explained. I also have the question my colleague from Drummond asked: why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income? It is simple. Chair, as legislated, we needed to set up a straightforward, simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement. Chair, let me clarify that employees who were covered by a SUB plan prior to March 15 are indeed covered by that plan. We're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit, regardless of whether or not the CERB is in place. Those who accessed EI after March 15 have been streamlined into the CERB process, and their employers can help them with up to $1,000 a month. However, the government says that, after the fact, it changed the rules that had previously applied, and it is no longer honouring its agreement. As I understand it, the government does not want to straighten out the situation, and that is unacceptable. Chair, I want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at Service Canada. We have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the CERB, as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the EI process. As of December 31, 2019, the total number of pending veterans' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. Chair, I thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the Parliament of Canada from my home in Midgell. As I indicated earlier in the House of Commons, I can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of Canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need. brad redekopp: Those 46,000 applications from December of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans. As you understand, with this pandemic there are some difficulties, but we are processing the same number of decisions daily. brad redekopp: On March 10, we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks. Chair, as I indicated, what we're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process, make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically. Some cannot, because we have to make sure that what's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: We will go back to Mr. On March 10, the deputy minister of Veterans Affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated, written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog. Chair, I can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work. My department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country. Chair, I'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to COVID-19, so I wonder if Mr. Chair, I can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared, and prepared properly, for the committee. As I said before, I fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: We'll go back to Mr. brad redekopp: Can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee? hon. I want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: We'll go back to Mr. brad redekopp: If automatic approval is implemented, does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog? hon. Chair, it will remove a number from the backlog, because quite simply, if you're skydiving out of a plane, you're going to have knee problems, and if you're a gunner, you're going to have ear problems. To make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear? alastair birch: Bore da—bore da, bawb. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure. Nothing to add at this stage, no? sally jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful? sally jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill? sally jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion. huw david: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales. sally jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. [Laughter.] dawn bowden am: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far? huw david: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed. sally jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it? sally jenkins: We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that— dawn bowden am: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections. alastair birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families. dawn bowden am: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it? alastair birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented? sally jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you? huw david: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales. dawn bowden am: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill? huw david: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation. dawn bowden am: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas. sally jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. There have been headlines that have said, 'Is it increased austerity?' That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to. alastair birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements. dawn bowden am: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools? alastair birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also—. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts. lynne neagle am: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked? sally jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: What, if a child is being smacked now? sally jenkins: Yes. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult. sally jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about—we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that 'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.' It also says, 'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition—' so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.' To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted? sally jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families' lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. janet finch-saunders am: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services—I know in my own authority—in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society—we don't want the two to be out of kilter. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC. Are there any comments from anyone else? huw david: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: Yes, where's that line. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in—we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions? sally jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. janet finch-saunders am: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated. lynne neagle am: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on? sally jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It’ll be where the level of harm that’s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services. janet finch-saunders am: I’m pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they’ve been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I’ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: But if you're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: And are they qualified people that are doing this? sally jenkins: Yes, absolutely. huw david: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it’s a multi-agency assessment. janet finch-saunders am: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked? sally jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. lynne neagle am: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover. huw david: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example— sally jenkins: Or prevention. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home, ‘There’s no role for children’s social services’, because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. And that’s a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it’s happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it’s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members. lynne neagle am: And are those services there, Huw? Because I’m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I’m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services. huw david: There’s not enough of those services, and, obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they’re only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we’ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months’ time, and that could escalate. And what I’d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. sally jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it’s not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child. alastair birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority—and it’ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o’clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that. janet finch-saunders am: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services? sally jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. janet finch-saunders am: Are they overstretched at the moment? sally jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted? alastair birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. It says in 'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that's what we're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into 'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure—and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw—that the services are key for families. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base—we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust? alastair birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust—it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually, 'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.' Some of the NFAs—the ones that don't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. The trust in the professionals—it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Siân Gwenllian. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work? sally jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense. sian gwenllian am: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that? huw david: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make—[Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: That's why I'm asking. huw david: I don't know whether that is necessary—I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent. But is it clear who would pay for all of that? huw david: I've suddenly changed my mind—[Laughter.] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers—absolutely. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin. hefin david am: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that? sally jenkins: I don't think so, no. hefin david am: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services—or doesn't? sally jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services—that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that. hefin david am: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. And I agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions. hefin david am: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services? sally jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into—. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable? sally jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Siân— lynne neagle am: Okay. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough? sally jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are. huw david: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced. sian gwenllian am: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that, 'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then, 'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.' We have to get the costs, surely. huw david: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.

The largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution has been made available to every school, empowering head teachers to address the professional needs of their schools and practitioners. This national initiative will begin with individual school assessments. The allocated funding covers a two-year period, with ongoing discussions for future allocations beyond that timeframe. The Liberals and conservatives have faced criticism for maintaining the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women, as well as using the emergency wage subsidy for partisan activities. Sally Jenkins emphasized the duty to report instances of child smacking, while also clarifying that social services aim to support families in finding their own solutions rather than imposing punitive measures. Existing legislation already covers cases of child abuse by parents, but the threshold for intervention needs further clarity. Social services will adapt their interactions with parents based on proposed laws. Emergency and out-of-hours local authority services are already in place and operate 24/7, working closely with the police.

Summarize the impact of the funding for supporting teachers on the preparation and implementation of professional development, as well as the accusations against the Liberals and the discussions on the implementation for social services.

And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up . 'Kay , and just to reiterate after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control . basically about fifty eight percent of what they like of the product that they want , describing like the in order of how much they want , fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like , fancy versus functional , and then it has to also be technologically innovative , and yet easy to use . So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing , shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year . I don't know really , I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to project manager: . marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff , you'd want like a softer touch . But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns , I don't know if we really want to go with that , because it is just a trend , project manager: Right . marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months , project manager: Right . marketing: so design preferences , we need easy to read like large buttons , clearly labelled so that , 'cause we talked about that being a problem . user interface: marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something . So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this , where we put the buttons around , like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle , it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down , and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape . user interface: Either refresh it , or it sh project manager: Y user interface: Oh wait , maybe I didn't put it there . project manager: user interface: Okay , looking at the interface concept , it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this . user interface: can't really see , but there's two possible ways , on the r left , if you see on th on the sides of of the remote , you have the sort of scroll down , so you have that option right there . And then on the right , we have what's really big trend right now , it's the iPod . It's becoming really and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section with the round buttons , and it's sort of like you have the both kind of trendy and hip , but also very sleek and and very simple , but technologically advanced . So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it , but Anyway , next . user interface: there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by by sight . You'd you know you're in the dark , you don't wanna be looking at the remote control . And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_ , and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up . What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down , because the down arrow . user interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up . but then you have you could either do it by raised type , which could be you know , iffy , sort of old-fashioned in a way . user interface: Either that or just have it by shape , for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow . And then the round ones you sort of feel by , you know , that's the second one down , that sort of thing . project manager: user interface: it's very cute , and we could probably change it to yellow , bright yellow for like a the for the company logo . and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain channels that only these children would watch , so it's like they ch watch , you know , the C_ Beebies or something like that , project manager: user interface: keep them away from other channels . On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that , because it's more for like a D_V_D_ function which we are not gonna be using . So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_ , Real Reaction . user interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples , but also some more , just possibilities that we could go with . user interface: But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying , well out of this one we like , you know the round section of , b or we'd like the the button size on this . project manager: What's the title ? industrial designer: It'll be copy of component design . So basic remote operation runs as follows , press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit , chip senses the connection , chip produces a morse code infra-red signal , specific to that button . Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre , which interprets the signal response accordingly , changes channel etcetera . Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction , so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed , we need rubber for buttons , aluminium for battery y contacts , integrated circuit which consists of a diode , transistor , resonator , resistors , and a capacitator , all those basic things that make a circuit function . An L_E_D_ , which is a light emitting diode , contact discs for the buttons , plastic for the casing , and a power-source , whatever power-source we've actually determined we want . personal preferences , to save money for the components , the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse . if we find another company who can produce the required chips , casing , L_E_D_ , any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing , we should go for it . They suggested power options , solar cells , hand dynamo , and kinetic power , so you shake it and it increases the power . I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works , they have yet to get back to me on that . We can offer options for casing such as straight , curved , double-curved , you know , very specific to the customer . project manager: industrial designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one , because splinters marketing: That would be amazing , though , yeah . So , if they want some a soft squishy rubber , they can't have the solar powered option . marketing: What is that ? industrial designer: that would be two curvatures , so it would actually , if you the shape of your hand , you curve here and you curve here , so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold . And so you functions what for the buttons , scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves . the manufacturing division also has said that they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip , which we could utilise . In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote , we're going to have to have multiples of each type , like a double-curved in rubber , you know , each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options . But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand , you know , double-curved wooden remotes . Where were we ? user interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before , project manager: Sure . user interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition . user interface: Right except that it's sort of odd , and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are , there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for So , you would say like , good morning , coffeemaker , and it would respond , good morning , Jill , project manager: user interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work , 'cause do you programme do we program the responses and the questions . So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question , and can't change it in order for it to be recognised , project manager: . user interface: or can it be altered in a certain way , or does the actually user program it , to say a channel means this . marketing: Yeah , like using the menu to be like , enter your name into the screen like on the menu options . marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be , I don't know , w it would be too hard to really project manager: . marketing: we could do it , but project manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would , you know , technology industrial designer: Well , we are making the chip . industrial designer: So , But , I guess , we have to look at w what our production cost is for the chip itself anyway . industrial designer: I I thought offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different , you know I think we'd have to decide on the power options , maybe . marketing: Yeah , 'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy . project manager: Okay , that kind of brings us to this , let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost . project manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier ? marketing: Oh the base , yeah . project manager: The base , the charging base with rechargeable batteries ? industrial designer: I think the p user interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like , before project manager: . user interface: 'Cause if it's something really really small , then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it , that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up project manager: Yeah , and we don't have multiple things that it has to control , it just has to control the T_V_ . marketing: We need to decide , well so we can figure how big it's gonna be , like exactly what buttons we want project manager: What size battery and user interface: Well , the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons , so we want it to be bigger than this , marketing: and exactly It could be like this . user interface: 'cause it still fits in your hand , so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial , but not necessarily full of buttons . marketing: I'd , well This one is really comfortable , like I like the sides whatever , user interface: Are you gonna lose it easier ? marketing: because But if we have the , the locator , then we don't have to worry about that . industrial designer: If we do a voice-activated locator , though , we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip . user interface: it's like You know Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size period ? marketing: Two double A_s , for this size . user interface: But like , you know , if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size . industrial designer: Honestly , I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small , compact project manager: Right . I agree , it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just marketing: Yeah . project manager: Alright , so what direction do you want to go in ? You wanna vote ? marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one , I think that seems way more advanced . project manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: That just seems so clunky and industrial designer: 'Kay so marketing: Yeah , because if even looking at cellphones right now , those trends the smaller the hotter it is , user interface: Smaller and smaller , yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah industrial designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash . project manager: user interface: Oh watches I've but I've never washed a cell phone . project manager: Okay , so what kind of material do we want to be made out of ? industrial designer: Pieces everywhere . user interface: I was saying that titanium , if we're being restricted then I would probably lean away from that . marketing: Yeah , 'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip , titanium will be more expensive . industrial designer: However , project manager: What would you recommend ? industrial designer: well , we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: right ? 'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium , user interface: Yeah . marketing: We could do that , because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Are we restricted by this ? project manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now.I'm industrial designer: Well the original user interface: Twenty five Euros project manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to produce a whole array of industrial designer: Okay . If this was a successful remote , we might then produce a higher end version of it , I think . project manager: Okay , so we wanna go for plastic , or what would you recommend for materials ? industrial designer: Honestly I'd recommend like project manager: . industrial designer: since we're going with batteries instead of solar power , I'd recommend maybe a soft like latex , project manager: industrial designer: because we could produce , you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour . industrial designer: We could do one that fits in with the trends of the year so , marketing: Oh . industrial designer: because this year is all fruit , God only knows why , user interface: marketing: Yeah , who knows . industrial designer: we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids , you know project manager: Okay . user interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it ? marketing: O or we could like take off this . industrial designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic , and then we could give two latex covers to start . Okay , and what kind of chip would we need for this guy ? industrial designer: How complicated Are we gonna go with the voice activated user interface: Yeah . project manager: I don't think we should do voice , I think we should just do the recognition for when it's lost , you know . marketing: 'Cause that what it type of , yeah , for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like , project manager: . marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time . project manager: marketing: see I'm I'm strangely attracted to it , because I know that's it's definitely gonna be big , because it's , I don't know , it's just so high-tech . user interface: Well , my little sister got for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring , and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work . user interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse , and you couldn't turn it off . But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say , channel up , and it would work , right ? marketing: Yeah , n n no , we just want it to be a finder . marketing: But do can your can the department make industrial designer: That would be like a mid-class Yeah . industrial designer: So we don't actually have to go for Well , if they've just developed the sample sensor , sample speaker , it's a brand new chip . project manager: and what size batteries , double A_ , triple A_ ? marketing: I think triple A_ , it'll be lighter . industrial designer: I think , well , we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium , 'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products , right ? So they're more widely available now . industrial designer: Well , how about a initial , you get one battery when you buy it , user interface: Right , that's what I meant . project manager: and that the central button could have , maybe our logo on it ? It might be the four way scroll , too . marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle , because like the old phones , there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle . user interface: Well , my issue with that is if it got too big though , 'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle , then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are , project manager: . user interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it ? marketing: Good point . industrial designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side , user interface: Yeah . marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top ? project manager: Yeah , I like that . marketing: But we definitely If we have scroll things on the side , we definitely have to have 'em labelled . marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: Well , if it's just up and down marketing: like on the side of it . We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then , project manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: 'cause oth otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this , you know . user interface: Well , the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side . W industrial designer: We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on , so we'll have to like have a little square or something , so that the our logo's available . user interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that . project manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though , because if people are able to change the covers , user interface: Which button ? project manager: I don't know , maybe the on-off button , something , some the menu button , I don't know , but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one . Are they all gonna have our company logo on them ? Every cover ? industrial designer: Yeah , I don't think we should do that , because that would just be icky . project manager: If we want it to be visible and are all those those one that you showed where they were s met silver-metallic looking ? But those are plastic , right ? user interface: Yeah . but , or if it was really industrial designer: For our base one ? project manager: Yeah , for the base or if we're going for the retro look , I think , like a really shiny black would be cool . marketing: Yeah , project manager: What are your thoughts ? marketing: or like a gun-metal grey , project manager: Gun-metal gray . user interface: Well , w w then what's the button do , and how do you know that that is what the button does ? I guess . Just looking at examples , y you just don't ever see the logo on a button , it's always on the actual casing . industrial designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual user interface: project manager: On the back ? user interface: But you don't marketing: But we want it to be seen . project manager: 'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery . The other option is , I don't know if you can see it but it's like if project manager: I can find it again . project manager: Well , for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly . You see at the bottom , it's kind of difficult to see , but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like , where the logo is , and if we have the replaceable section , it's like the top . project manager: user interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in . project manager: Okay , yes user interface: If c you envisioning it ? project manager: yes . user interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo , and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes . industrial designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons , user interface: . industrial designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be . user interface: That's like , you know , a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened . user interface: And so , what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_ ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones ? marketing: Some of tho Well , some of those buttons though are blue-based . and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact , they could illuminate yellow . marketing: Like if we like the one all the way on the left , you ca you can see it on your computer better . marketing: where the button is actually blue , but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow . Any other ideas or thoughts ? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so user interface: . user interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we just everything that we said before ? project manager: I think there will be time for that later . next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes , and here's what we're each of us going to do . The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design , the U_I_D_ the user interface design . I think you're going to get a lot of , the final say on what buttons get put We'll all talk about it , but I think , that's pretty much what you're gonna do , right ? user interface: Yeah . Okay , and right now , the I_D_ and U_I_D_ , you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay <doc-sep>Then I've I will also take notes during this meeting and I will send you a summary then as usual . We will then look at the evaluation criteria of the prototype presented by our two colleagues that make good work . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: And then we will see the financial aspects and the cost of the product . And end with the conclusion of this project and see whether it fits with it fulf if it fulfil the requirement or not . project manager: d let's start with the cost aspect so so I look at the aspect discussed last time , that is to say to have a standard battery , to have a yellow banana shaped case with a rubber material around it industrial designer: project manager: to be to feel spongy , user interface: Like a banana . project manager: So for the financial aspect it's okay , we can we can continue with this product as if , marketing: project manager: and we are now going to see the project evaluation with our marketing expert . marketing: So I made an evaluation and the the evaluation criteria is made according to the users' requirements and the market trends we talked about during the previous meetings . marketing: So we we want to have a product fancy look and feel , technologically innovative , easy to use , fashion , easy to find in a room , and robust , project manager: Yeah . marketing: and according to what you think about the this project you can make a one point , two point or seven point . marketing: The okay ? so fancy look and feel , what do you think ? project manager: Okay . user interface: Do you vote Christine ? marketing: eh ? user interface: Do you also vote ? marketing: No , I just want to see something project manager: Maybe we all have to agree on a common user interface: Well , we can very easily . So user interface: marketing: Need to project manager: this is your marketing: I don't know if you we ha we have to put one f If it's better or project manager: One is most . project manager: How much would you give on the fancy aspect , on the fashionable aspect ? marketing: Six s you can how much what ? project manager: How much would you you don't answer to this questionnaire ? marketing: Oh yes I I dunno , I think six , it's a good user interface: So it will have five point five average . project manager: Four ? industrial designer: A four also , because , except for the wheel , we don't have so much innovation . I I user interface: D are we including the voice are you glu are we including the voice in the end or not ? Huh ? project manager: No . project manager: Four ? So we have four , four f and five ? marketing: We can put four ? user interface: Yeah . Is it fashion ? project manager: Oh yeah , user interface: project manager: its its f its fruit fruit shape . marketing: Yeah it's fashion , because it's a fruit , user interface: Yeah , we can we can put a seven here . marketing: We have the lightning , or project manager: Yeah , we have the marketing: The lighting . project manager: we don't sesh especially have the lightning user interface: So you'll make the material transparent project manager: but marketing: user interface: so that it lights up completely , or project manager: So it's yellow . project manager: I think it's very easy to marketing: Seven ? project manager: I would say seven . marketing: Is it is it robust ? project manager: Yeah , it's rubber , made of rubber , industrial designer: f yeah , it's ru it's rubber . user interface: Yeah the only problem there might be which know , i if it's very sensitive , project manager: Yeah . user interface: I don't know project manager: But it is it is surrounded by rubber material . if we say that seven it's it's the better , project manager: Yeah , the be . industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , the top marketing: and when s six sit six are good it's a good p product , I think . user interface: Because I saw some phones that were banana shaped , wireless phones not mobile ones , wireless for the house , marketing: project manager: Yeah . user interface: quite big also , marketing: user interface: and they were selling something like a hundred Euros , two hundred Euros . project manager: I think the industrial designer: But almo also the complexity between a phone and a remote control is not cannot compare . user interface: it's much more complex , but project manager: So , I think , we can summarise . We we have the cost below our threshold and so we could sell at twenty five Euros and make i make profit . marketing: project manager: So the cost is in the budget , the evaluation is okay , so I th I think we can now open champagne and make a huge party . user interface: project manager: I don't know if it's provided by by the meeting staff . user interface: So what does the management say ? project manager: Sorry ? user interface: What does the management say ? project manager: I think we will have much bigger project next time and a much bigger salary as well <doc-sep>I've done more PowerPoints in this particular experiment than I've ever done in my life before this experiment industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: So here we have our detailed design meeting where we will look at the prototype and right so , I finally figured out what this whole second bullet point is about in my that my coach was sending to me . Otherwise it's just saying I'm the secretary marketing: project manager: and I'm therefore I'm taking the minutes , s so just to go just real briefly to go over minutes from last meeting , I will open them slowly , no ? Wait for it , wait for it . user interface: project manager: This is , this is very high-powered stuff here , double-clicking , there we go . So basically the moral of the story from our last minute last meeting was that we that we had meetings from we had presentations done by the Industrial Designer , or from Nathan , and Ron and from Sarah about what we can do here and what sort of limitations we're operating with excuse me what limitations we're operating under , what kind of risk we'd be looking at with some of the various approaches we were discussing and we essentially came to the conclusion that we should develop a remote with voice recognition , I_E_ that had a vaguely non-remote like shape because you didn't really need to use it as a remote since you could just use your voice . That would include some mostly just the simple design features for a television operation but with a slide or a fold-out bay for more advanced functions for users . , and the the U_I_D_ and the I_D_ were asked to go ahead and start developing a prototype for us to look at . What's to be said about it ? , we took into account a lot of the things that we went over in the last meeting , . Some of the most important things to consider are that we decided not to go for the touch screen which you can see project manager: This is going to be the on off button project manager: industrial designer: and we have these buttons to go through the channels and then two volume buttons down here , d we decided those were the most important buttons . And then , for the more advanced functions there is a slide out panel here and you can see that there are lots of other things going on . But this actually can slide back in and provides a very nice aesthetic when it's all put away , . As far as the whole visible light thing , we decided to go with the multiple colours coming out , user interface: marketing: Ah . user interface: industrial designer: Of course , if that's annoying for some people that function can be turned off . user interface: No it's important to we talked a quite a bit about you know the the interchangeable faces and what we've done here is come up with a bit of a natural look here marketing: . user interface: of course that's interchangeable industrial designer: user interface: and I think it would be desirable for the for the regular product in the in the in the in the first packaging to be something a little bit more subdued marketing: 'kay . user interface: and as you can see on the television there we have the voice detector device on the top there . , what other things do we see here , well , if you give it a touch it does have actually a bit of a spongy feel , project manager: user interface: so I think that will work well with regards to our market . and let's see , well clearly there's gonna be some more colours and what not available . do you have anything else to add to that ? industrial designer: I worried about the materials , it is the entire thing is covered in a rubber coating so it's very durable , it's not gonna break like some types of plastic that's dropped . , and of course as you can see and if you touch it it does have that nice squishy feel . user interface: It's actually important to note that the television , you know if there's an earthquake or anything like that , that i it actually is edible inside . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Fact , I dunno if you noticed , but I wrote the the company's name on the telephone screen , project manager: Oh well done yeah , yeah oh ok industrial designer: I thought that was kinda nice . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: This user interface: marketing: Do we need to worry about rot factors ? project manager: user interface: it's encased in a new type of marketing: Oh okay , there's preservatives involved , project manager: industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: we don't need to worry , industrial designer: We got a bit ahead of ourselves , user interface: It's fine . industrial designer: I know we're not talking about making televisions at this point or anything like that , but user interface: . user interface: but I think that's I think that sums up the main features of our of the remote , project manager: Brilliant . user interface: I dunno if you guys have any questions or f whether that whether we need to worry about any other marketing areas or anything of that nature . This cost well to put this into production , we're looking at about what was our goal ? It was twelve fifty Euro and this actually came in at about eleven ninety nine . industrial designer: One thing that we didn't do obviously we had a choice with the buttons whether to use scroll buttons or standard rubber buttons , but we just went for a classic rubber button and since we did that marketing: . industrial designer: we didn't have to use as many microchips which was quite nice and that's what helped keep the cost down . industrial designer: So even though it has a lot of modern technology , for example the voice recognition , marketing: . industrial designer: in a lot of ways it's just a simple remote and I think if we shopped around for other manufacturers we might be able to get even cheaper . Did we talk about the voice recognition option ? industrial designer: And Oh no , we haven't talked about that yet have we ? user interface: So so yeah on the back here you all noticed this area here which is actually the voice recognition console project manager: marketing: Okay . user interface: but basically the voice recognition incorporates the latest designs that our research team has been able to cufw come up with . industrial designer: Any questions ? project manager: No , no marketing: Do we have other , for lack of a better word , skins ? Covers ? project manager: I think that's user interface: marketing: In play now or are those ones gonna be developed later once we see how the couple we have g go or ? industrial designer: do you wanna answer this one marketing: Do we know where we stand on that yet ? industrial designer: or do you want me to answer it ? user interface: Well we didn't quite have enough material . user interface: Oh I see , marketing: I just didn't know if you guys had any in mind yet . industrial designer: well as you can see this is just a most superficial layer and it'd be very easy to put another layer of something else like marketing: Okay . marketing: And the whole thing project manager: marketing: Okay user interface: So there are I marketing: Right user interface: we definitely priced out a spongy even spongier non-natural look materials marketing: Yeah . We also continued on with the ideas that f following Apple's colour schemes with the kind of the light orange and the green . industrial designer: It's not it's not quite a a face plate , it's more like a pseudo-face plate because it's simple enough marketing: Okay . industrial designer: that in the factory it could we could very easily put a different one on it , it locks into place such that , you know , it's pretty permanent but at the same time , if we wanna go the other way it's just a matter of a couple of adjustments and we could go the face plate way marketing: Okay . , what we need to discuss now is the finance of it , I got me you've got you provided a number that actually sounds quite nice . project manager: I'm just gonna clear this out real quickly , but it looks like So we'll just if we can just itemize what's in here , we've got this it's a solar cell thing right ? industrial designer: Right project manager: With a back-up battery ? industrial designer: we didn't really touch on that but it it's in there , project manager: With the ba okay . so I guess that would mean we've got a bit of a It's a s a speaker and a sensor at the same time isn't it ? industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . and the case , it's more of a single-curved case , I guess would be that be the general industrial designer: Yeah , one big curve I guess you could say . Push button interface with this other drop-down so maybe we've got two push button interfaces don't we ? industrial designer: Yeah , And a special I guess it's we've got a sort of a wood materi a rubbery type material that throughout , industrial designer: Yeah , special . industrial designer: And s I guess you have to mark special colour and special form as well , don't you ? 'Cause it i it is very unconventional , project manager: Yeah , it's it's quite unique . project manager: I like it , yeah it's So it looks like marketing: M come in at sixteen ? project manager: a bit over budget , . Huh , doesn't match up does it ? user interface: marketing: project manager: So what we could do perhaps , a simple fix would maybe to switch away from the solar cells or take out the back-up battery . industrial designer: How do you feel about that ? user interface: I think that if we're talking about it being one of our main selling features , being environmental and without the batteries and what not , although it does still have a battery so I'm not sure that you know what the sell is on that . industrial designer: we could take we could take the battery out of it you see and it'd probably work ninety nine per cent of the time but you're gonna have to set up a call centre for that one per cent of the time when people are calling and saying oh look my remote isn't working user interface: project manager: industrial designer: it's hard to scrap the whole cell battery idea 'cause that's so integral to the theme that we have . What's difficult , we have all these things integral to the to the design of it that we just can't back out of now , marketing: Nah . project manager: it would have to be seems like we'd have to go back to square one in a way . if we were gonna try to undo one bit we'd probably have to undo most of it , user interface: industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Although we don't wanna get rid of the whole environmental obviously the solar cell is a big piece of the way we're marketing this as like a natural , new thing , but honestly if we cut that one piece out we're actually coming in under budget if I've done my math correctly . user interface: you might be able to sway me on the idea that we our main selling point could be already this voice recognition thing marketing: user interface: that's what sets us apart marketing: Which , it's user interface: right ? marketing: yeah that's what setting us into this young market , that's where we started from , so I don't know , and you know perhaps when the cell technology comes down in price we can bring that back into the game but it looks like at this point that may be out of our league . user interface: And the reality is you know , for me from an ideological stand point , I'd like to stick with the the solar cell , but I h kind of have to throw myself in the in the business structure model here marketing: Right . user interface: and you know I think I think that I think that we need to come to a compromise here project manager: It's either or . industrial designer: It's the only way we're gonna get below our goal isn't it ? Of twelve fifty . project manager: 'Cause we can't remove the push buttons 'cause they're industrial designer: Yeah , . marketing: It kind of project manager: and we can't get rid of the removing the user interface: Savings . project manager: changing the case wouldn't be so much of a - , nor would changing the case materials . , so I guess now we just go to the project evaluation which I will allow Sarah to take over . project manager: That'd be great industrial designer: user interface: marketing: I didn't even do that one on purpose either , user interface: marketing: damn . Okay , basically I was just evaluating from what we know of how our product's working right now with the criteria that we set at the beginning of these are the things we needed to do , these are the things that look like we feel they're important . so I was looking at basic design things , does it fulfil its functions as a remote ? Is the design what we wanted it to do ? I are technologies up to where we hoped they would be and does it fulfil the aesthetic qualities that our original market research was looking for ? . Basic questions like , you know , does it turn on ? Does it respond to voice recognition ? And overall , in general , it looks like it's coming up to par . marketing: the only thing is with with the pull-out panel , that is , can it take some adjusting because it's a new sort of interface , that looked like it was coming up rough , but then , once you get used to it , it does make a lot of sense . It looks like it's going over well , so user interface: And the paging function works well , industrial designer: Six ? user interface: that's good to hear , marketing: we're we're good yeah . It's I think eventually if we do branch out with this product maybe we do have a higher budget options and if it goes over with this model we can look into wider range voice recognition like from other rooms of the house and stuff , but for now , what we've got is working in the range we need it for , so it's all good . industrial designer: I am bit disappointed about losing the solar panel marketing: That's everything from me . marketing: Yeah , it is a set-back , but industrial designer: marketing: Okay , do you need the cord back ? project manager: yeah , user interface: W we might have we might have lost that granola market again project manager: I was just go on . user interface: that we're project manager: Well they don't own tellys anyway do they ? industrial designer: True . so I guess we are going to discuss our project process marketing: industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and that is gonna go into my report . So I guess this is the point where we go out of role it looks like and talk about our satisfaction for room for creativity and so forth and how that all worked , I guess , . industrial designer: Right so it's just kind of a open mic kind of thing or marketing: Okay . marketing: It is now , industrial designer: user interface: marketing: you're in charge there you go . so user interface: project manager: But I trust that she would jump in if I was so okay fair enough . project manager: right , so any thoughts ? industrial designer: Are we considering these points here ? marketing: . project manager: What do you guys feel about the process ? industrial designer: marketing: you know I think in general , for a day's worth of work we actually were relatively productive , project manager: and the technology has definitely been a help , it's really been interesting to try out all this new stuff . We could now if that'd make up for it user interface: And marketing: but really industrial designer: marketing: and I feel like if you guys had been designing in here perhaps that would have changed but because of room constraints , doesn't really matter . user interface: also had I not been intrigued about the pen , I don't think I woulda used it at all , I didn't write barely anything . marketing: Yeah I think I was taking notes more often than usual industrial designer: Yeah , it's true . project manager: marketing: Yeah , but I didn't get a response industrial designer: What if you get a response two or three months from now ? user interface: marketing: so project manager: marketing: we'll see . industrial designer: marketing: Well user interface: industrial designer: marketing: what kind of coaching is that really ? What if I really needed something . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: I so n I think there was a lot of room for creativity , I don't we could do whatever basically what we wanted until the budget came down on us , . And even then we did get a decent product turned out although it's not everything we wanted it to be . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: That's the brilliance of they had a p they had a peeler in here . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: marketing: And highly resourceful team mates might I add industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: And to prove that we weren't wasteful we didn't waste a single bit of Play-Doh , we used every bit . industrial designer: Yeah , user interface: industrial designer: I guess user interface: industrial designer: My one my one criticism is that we didn't have enough colours to work with , project manager: user interface: marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: I think it was pretty clever 'cause we were never able to get too far off track because the information came in at the right time and kind of filled in the gaps enough . industrial designer: At the same time you had enough room to kind of just make things up , project manager: marketing: Do your own . marketing: Though I did feel like th the level of information dropped off severely over the course of the day . marketing: maybe it's just me but I didn't actually get any information for the last presentation at all . marketing: Nothing , I didn't even get an email , user interface: marketing: like industrial designer: marketing: that was it . So , yeah , I feel like that was slightly lacking but then you know , fill in the blanks on your own , level of creativity upped . user interface: Well I think that was I think that was an issue I kept finding with regard to marketing: Whatever . user interface: well no but also yeah when I was reporting about what each of us was doing I was often confused as to what you were doing industrial designer: . industrial designer: You know user interface: and then I also felt like you know a lot of our discussion would centre around n specifically what my task was marketing: . user interface: but and then in the end I think our jobs kind of melded together a little bit more , industrial designer: Yeah . I think the most helpful thing out of everything was getting the the PowerPoint slides already put together for you user interface: which was fine . industrial designer: 'cause if we didn't have that there's no way we could have got all that done in time . project manager: She said I I I she actually made a comment off boy you're getting into this and I really I think it's true I did get I I felt like I got way too into it . That's kind of a good thing though , project manager: I felt like I slipped into it a lot . user interface: An so is that the first time you've taken on that kind of role ? project manager: The first time I've ever done anything like yeah project project management . project manager: it's one thing to do , you know set up a party with your friends , user interface: project manager: you know ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: But you guys felt that you could keep the , yeah , suspension of disbelief kind of like like the role and the okay ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: marketing: and I knew we were all lying through our teeth , industrial designer: user interface: I had to admit , as soon as w we started as soon as we got the Play-Doh , th you know the whole concept of really trying to stick with reality went out the window . industrial designer: project manager: Maybe in in Legos you know ? Be fun with Legos too , user interface: Possibly . project manager: like make a remote control or spaceship , we used to have spaceship Legos did you guys ever used to build spaceships with Legos user interface: Oh yeah , marketing: Yeah . project manager: you guys felt like there was enough teamwork in all ? industrial designer: Yeah ? marketing: I think so . user interface: project manager: No I , no I dunno , I d I I dunno , industrial designer: You don't . project manager: I don't I I was just I marketing: Though we didn't actually other than minor discussion at meetings there wasn't except for the actual building , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: It's true huh ? marketing: but I feel like if this was a team project there actually would have been much more of the collaborative like brainstorming , use the board well and this would have been six months' worth of work , not like three hours' worth of meetings . user interface: I think had the issue been more serious we probably woulda brainstormed more during our meetings as a team . Course I'm I'm conscious of the idea of the Project Manager asking if you guys feel like there's a team you know it's like , kind of like , like . industrial designer: project manager: It d marketing: Yeah that is kind of project manager: But yeah . It's kind of fascinating wasn't it ? the whole process of industrial designer: Wonder why is there anything about the way that we got so much inform what was it that kept us from going to the the board ? project manager: I don't know . I I don't know if there was a ri I th marketing: Mine was the mics . I didn't feel like getting up and down and dealing with all these wires , industrial designer: Yeah , that's it marketing: I was afraid I was gonna break something actually . industrial designer: 'cause the mics are loose and each time you get up it's s a possibility of tripping over something or getting tangled or . True , but it didn't even occur to me as an option , project manager: Nor I . marketing: I don't know that I would have but I know that I consciously didn't . user interface: it's just like the paper I don't know what I really needed the paper for . project manager: I wanna see wh wh what my my handwriting looks like digitized marketing: I know . industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: just to see what it looks like in P_D_F_ format or something . Usually I would do a lot more doodling too but I didn't because user interface: marketing: I know , I felt like I needed to be professional so I didn't like draw all over my paper and stuff . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: Okay , well not entirely , but still , I doodled less than I usually do . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: T I I'm curious about what the de-briefing is gonna be like . user interface: So is this all we need to get through ? project manager: I dunno , I'm not sure what the new ideas found i is about . user interface: Is it marketing: It did it just say in an email that we need to discuss that ? project manager: Well , that's the thing I got i in the email I got this PowerPoint file but this slide was just there , marketing: That slide was like that ? project manager: user interface: Any new ideas with regard to remote control concepts ? project manager: W I kinda like th industrial designer: No , none . user interface: project manager: Yeah you can't industrial designer: I think they're fine actually . marketing: I am thinking outside the little square box though , with literally in like form project manager: Yeah . project manager: Does kinda make you wonder , how much can you do with a remote control ? It's like inventing a new car . Yeah yeah , you can marketing: It's still gotta be technically car shaped or it won't fit on the road , project manager: Yeah . user interface: What is that ? Our limited ability to think outside the box ? project manager: So this was other costs . I think this is marketing: Oh , how long was our meeting supposed to be ? project manager: forty ish marketing: How much time do we have left ? project manager: I I I we should go on a bit yeah about the project eval , . project manager: you know what is marketing: Yeah , at the beginning it started out and I felt actually like under pressure like the first couple were taking a lot of work project manager: Yep . marketing: and I was like had like all this brainstorming I was doing industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: and then suddenly I was like well it's just another two minute presentation that you guys don't really care about anyway user interface: Why ? project manager: Hey . marketing: like we all sort of knew where we were headed with it so it didn't feel like it mattered anymore . industrial designer: Definitely when when I first filled out the questionnaire I was marking it probably higher in terms of how much I had to how much I stressed over it user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and then by the time I got to the last one I was like , you know , not very much . user interface: Think it was also realisation of you basically just copy and paste what's given to you into your presentation industrial designer: Yeah . I di user interface: Oh I added like five slides too , marketing: See project manager: Oh . industrial designer: I just got blank ones project manager: What ? Really ? industrial designer: and marketing: My slides were all blank , they'd have a title maybe user interface: Yeah , mine too . project manager: yeah they didn't come like this ? Like with this was what it looks like . This is what that looked like , marketing: Like with those words already on it ? project manager: literally , just like that . user interface: I added many slides every time marketing: Hey industrial designer: marketing: with the whole new background being innovative , yeah that was class . project manager: industrial designer: I think it would fail , I think marketing: I can't just leave it there . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it'd be a huge disaster , especially if it looks like that . marketing: I think it would take extensive marketing , okay , an apple with a red button on top , even I am sceptical . user interface: Actually that looked a lot more like a tongue from previous to fr some other design modifications . user interface: I hope you appreciate the incorporation of some tin foil from a random Kit-Kat bar project manager: marketing: I I noticed that . industrial designer: Yeah , it's user interface: So again I reiterate my question of how different we are comp compared to the other groups , especially between culture groups and what not . You know from the the the basics to the conce industrial designer: I wanna see a marketing: I Yeah . project manager: although the whole concepts thing , the whole concepts phase , I don't think I really understood like the concept . project manager: yeah i it's not like I have a concept of a mug's material , it's just it is what it is . project manager: maybe i rather than concepts i it should be th thought of we sh I I thought of I thought of rather than in terms of concepts I thought of it in terms of proposed idea . industrial designer: So we have more slides or ? marketing: project manager: No just this closing one . No we've established that the costs weren't really within budget , but we could s you know do it marketing: We got it to be . project manager: We did the project evaluation based on Sarah's evaluation of on off switches marketing: Like cutting corners . Kind of , project manager: and marketing: though it was really technically an evaluation of the product , not the project in general . marketing: Which I'm not sure is the same thing , at the time that just i made more sense , but I could see if they were really asking about us . project manager: I'm supposed to do this final report thing at the end so I'll put all that into the final report as well , or as much as seems like maybe not like the articles and stuff , like because and if and so forth , but I'll put most of it in the reports . marketing: I've done transcription before and it's really ridiculous how many words people say like just in the middle of their sentences like that project manager: Oh yeah . project manager: There's a whole branch of psychology that looks into that , psycholinguistics . user interface: What the uhs and the marketing: There's a guy studying it here , yeah , he's studying ums and ahs or something . industrial designer: Filler words or ? project manager: Yep , they're called disfluencies . industrial designer: I find myself hitting the send and receive button on the email a lot , just out of boredom , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Well to be fair we're we're hooked we're all hooked on the internet , so I do the marketing: Yeah , we are addicts . user interface: Well just around that eight or or nine people that are project manager: I know , imagine we went the first ten y fifteen years of our lives without the internet . It's only in the last ten that we're like where's the internet ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: you know , it just in the past five we've gone from twenty eight eight modems to broadband all the time . project manager: No we have but I not in the sense that it's so un you know ubiquitous marketing: I yeah . marketing: But it's not regular my grandparents had it in the eighties and I got it in ninety four , but still . user interface: In the eighties ? marketing: My grammy does computer science back in the States and so they had an E_D_U_ and gov network . marketing: There's basically the fundamental structures , but it wasn't household to household yet user interface: Right . marketing: because it hadn't been user interface: Yeah , it was to the like seven universities or something . project manager: 'Kay I guess we can probably call that meeting to an end for the most part . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: Where do you find that ? marketing: I have no idea . user interface: industrial designer: Is that the only song you have ? user interface: There is another one . project manager: Is this one of those media player ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Huh ? project manager: W oh . project manager: That's one that seems to be shipping with it shipped with for a while , maybe this is the new version . marketing: So is that a close ? project manager: Yeah , I guess we'll call that a a doner <doc-sep>Right so this meeting will be about the conceptual design , don't ask me s precisely what conceptual design is , it's just something important that we need to do . In this meeting ideally we'll come to some final decisions on what we're gonna do for the prototype . Right so , apologies for the last meeting , it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clear enough , so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting . So , basically all we're gonna do is have some presentations again much like last time , and gonna go through you , whoever wants to go first is f fine by me and we'll collate what we know about what we discussed in the last meeting , possible directions . And then we'll make some more decisions on basic firm up our idea on how we want this remote control to look and work . It is Nathan right ? I'm not calling you the wrong name over and over again ? industrial designer: No Nathan's fine . industrial designer: basically what I'm gonna have to talk to you about today is component design and it's been brought to my attention that we may be somewhat limited as to what we can do because of what our manufacturer offers , project manager: . We've already kind of gone over this but we're gonna have to get into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon . Our manufacturer didn't say anything about lithium so we might have to look if we do go that route , we might have to look elsewhere . Basically , it's like a the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running . So that's one possibility but I don't know whether that would be powerful enough to illuminate a touch screen . and then as far as the way it's shaped , we can do standard boring flat , which we probably don't wanna do , curved or very sexy double curved . project manager: What kind of th thickness are we looking at ? industrial designer: I imagine that we could specify . industrial designer: the buttons , there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer , but to use those we'd have to use more chips , and that would cost us more . And if we do go with the rubber doubled curved case we'll have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons aren't compatible with that . industrial designer: one thing that I noticed was that most remotes operate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum . So you notice when you push a button on a remote you can't see anything coming out of it but in fact there is light coming out of the remote and you know the television can detect that . And if you were to record if you were to make a video recording you could actually see the light . one thing that I thought might be interesting was to use part use visible light coming out of the remote , just kind of as a fun gimmick . industrial designer: Course it'd have to be a part of the spectrum that wouldn't damage the human eye or anything like that . project manager: is there an option that we can have that off or on so a person can select like industrial designer: Yeah . , and then on to the circuit board that we're gonna use , also known as the chip . , we really don't have any way around the T_A_ one one eight three five . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: findings , okay , we're very limited by what our current manufacturers can offer , and my question to all of you is , should we look to other manufacturies or should we just make do with what we have available ? user interface: Interesting question . marketing: Well I'd say shop around but with our time constraints , is that really a feasible option ? project manager: . , if we do go the lithium battery route then we'll have to go outside our current manufacturer . My personal preference is I'll just throw my cards on the table , I think we should probably go the solar battery route , just to kinda keep with the environmentally friendly theme that we have going on . , I like the idea of the visible light signalling , that's something to set us apart and I was thinking about I was thinking of ways that we could produce the remote in a variety of different case materials to suit different tastes . So we're not so confined by one style and say some you know , say our the one marketing: Right . industrial designer: if we just go with one and it doesn't go over well then we're in a bad situation . project manager: Can we do marketing piloting too ? Try to see what kind before we launch can we see how they're received ? marketing: It's an option , but actually there's I've got some research already on like what we're looking at and trends in casing right now project manager: Okay . project manager: That's perfect , so I guess that makes sense for you to take it from here . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Did you ? marketing: You waiting for me ? project manager: Fascinating , compelling even . , basically I was looking at what's going on in the remote control market right now and what's going on in other design fields , to see sort of what's what's trendy , what's new , what's happening . , remote control right now basically everybody says they want newer , fancier , more exciting they're sick of this boring , normal , functional , that we need innovative design options and there needs to be an easy user interface . the challenge is that current trends right now , across the board in fashion , in furniture , in technology , is a very organic fruit and vegetable kind of thing . user interface: project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: Now I'm not saying we should have , you know , tomato shaped remote controls or anything , but I think it is possible maybe to use natural colours , like if wood is an option , that whole organic , sleek , clean , industrial designer: . Different skin options , or if we can't afford this touch plate thing , or touch face screen interface , maybe having the b images be specific , like you could choose your menu bullets to be project manager: Tomatoes . marketing: a different shape industrial designer: user interface: marketing: or okay , not the example I would choose , but you know what to t sort of and th apparently the feel of the next couple of years is spongy , project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: not something I I've come up with a though if we can get around to getting piloting , I thought maybe a casing option like not like a skin , but like a holder almost if you could do like , leather options or wood options or something industrial designer: . As far as the rubber that we can use we can use a rubber as part of the case , marketing: So overall I think we should stick with what we're finding , everyone's looking for easy to use , technologically innovative and this fancy new I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way to go for right now . Well I d but then if the touch screen thing isn't gonna work out for us that's really a non-issue . industrial designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it's tends to be associated with being durable , something that you can drop and it doesn't matter . project manager: Yeah , it's like , yep industrial designer: Taped with duck tape and what have you , marketing: Very much so . project manager: it's ubiquitous isn't it ? user interface: We can have a duck tape casing . user interface: marketing: I think that goes against the whole fancy something , a new line , project manager: user interface: It could go with the granola crowd . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: Ah , it could be , it could be , project manager: Great , marketing: . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: So yur user interface , guys , is basically aspects of a computer system that we can see or hear , or otherwise perceive . Here's a d series of different remote controls industrial designer: user interface: that are out on the market today . voice recognition , we we actually have some new information from our research design team but I'll get to that in a moment . , so current voice recognition starts up to about eighty speech samples , and basically you record your own verbal labels c and connect them to the remote control . Now our design team , research team , has been able to set up a system in which you can teach the remote control voice c recognition system to respond to with standard responses . Like you could say good morning remote control and it'll say in a sexy female voice , Good morning Joe . project manager: marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: In fact we already have this for a coffee maker line marketing: . project manager: Lot of single people on the on the re on the remote control research team user interface: On the remote control industrial designer: project manager: at the user interface: right . user interface: another concept is what Apple has come up with , the spinning wheel with L_C_ display like on the iPod project manager: . user interface: and then we have the scroll button with integrated push-button , kind of like a modern a bit bulky , a bit crazy , project manager: . user interface: And some special components , ideas like blocking , having the ability to block channels from your for your children and dedicated buttons for for commonly used channels and even ideas like secured or hidden programming but I again if we go with touch screen I don't think that's a big issue . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: the jumbo universal remote control is almost impossible to misplace or lose . user interface: again probably not what we're going for marketing: user interface: so I my ideas here and kind of where I think we're heading is something slightly larger than a regular iPod with a hard cla c plastic casing marketing: Okay . user interface: although I think some of the suggestions we've come up with are definitely very good ideas . changeable casings our design team was possibly talking about including one extra face plate with the package to kind of set the idea that you can change it and you can try changing it marketing: right . user interface: and kind of get used to thinking about maybe buying another one which can add value to our bottom line . touch screen interface , possibly having go-to buttons being stuck into the system so those don't move away from the screen , the important ones like power , volume and jump between channels . , and of course our voice command system which I've talked a little bit about already project manager: . user interface: and the use of recognisable colours and shapes to aid recognition of the features that are around so red for power , arrows for different volume ups and downs and channels ups and downs and what not . user interface: And perhaps even adding in some stupid little jokes with the voice recognition idea like perh for instance my toastie maker that I got from my bank marketing: user interface: has jokes when it's ready . project manager: That's what they need , it's like a little dongle it just sticks up this further so you don't have to stand up every time , just connect it , my kingdom . Now we kind of have to come to some decisions , I figure we can just go down the line and all three of us can have a chat about it . Based on what Nathan presented as far as the various costs and benefits I think , I dunno , what do you guys think about the touch screen at this point ? marketing: I think it's our most marketable feature just because it's so new and it's something that is showing up in other places . marketing: But can we really afford it 'cause it looks like they would be , that would be a really main cost source then project manager: marketing: right ? industrial designer: My estimate is that in order to incorporate touch screen technology it's gonna cost us upwards of seventeen fifty Euro per remote , project manager: To produce each one . marketing: And our goal was to be under twelve fifty or we have to be under twelve fifty ? project manager: Well . project manager: There is , it's just , it is a question of and how much ca o does that mean we're gonna have to increase the price to make money . marketing: Can we justify it ? project manager: from twelve fifty if we d wanna get our fift hundred per cent profit margin that would mean selling it from twenty five . project manager: So user interface: Where do you guys come up with these numbers ? industrial designer: That's just off the top of my head , project manager: From the board , industrial designer: it is pending further emails . project manager: well marketing: Though I think that's what people would pay for , user interface: marketing: if you're gonna pay for an expensive high class remote , you're gonna expect it to do something project manager: That's true , industrial designer: It is the new it would be in a class of its own . project manager: And that's to be fair the the per cent of the market we're not going for mass any you know , mass sales anyway , we're gonna make we we're not talking about selling eight zillion of these things , we just couldn't , not for twenty-five Euros , marketing: Right . project manager: so we could probably maybe shrink the profit margins rather than selling for twenty five , sell 'em for thirty , but that's something that we can have finance deal with . project manager: or wh y wh what was your thought on the matter Ron ? user interface: I'm thinking that's definitely a good idea and I also think that we could probably come up with some sort of a cheaper means to to go about this kind of production , my my team in the on the third floor suggested that marketing: See if we can cut some corners . Well and we can look into this other manufacturing option , and maybe we can get 'em somewhere else cheaper . industrial designer: We could initially go with what we have and if we can find them cheaper later on marketing: Right . project manager: No we could have a s very simple touch screen , you know , there's always the opportunity , if it's gonna be about the size of the iPod or whatever , you know , w we yeah , I guess we can play around with it a bit . Alright , let's let's say that okay so the touch screen will be our our main selling point here . project manager: So user interface: I think that we really have two main selling points , I think that our casing and the voice recognition marketing: Yeah 'cause with voice recognition really this is pretty bells and whistles kinda remote . project manager: if if we're looking at bottom line , now we're looking at upping the cost to seventeen to get the touch screen on , user interface: project manager: I think we might have to drop the voice rec . user interface: To be honest , we have the capa we have the design in-house , marketing: Price-wise . user interface: we've we've come up with this , with this new voice marketing: True . What do you think on it Nathan ? About the voice rec ? industrial designer: I think if we we do both the obviously production costs are going to go way up but it does put it into it'd become the Rolls Royce of remote controls basically . Course , maybe they hadn't thought of this whole touch screen option , but definitely we know the market is there for voice recognition so to say we have the technology and we're not gonna use it even though we know it'll sell is a call I don't think I can give the highs ups . marketing: Like really I can't go in and say no we're gonna just ignore everything we know . user interface: Does having both really up our costs ? project manager: I can't see how it wouldn't , there's you know the old aphorism , you can have it fast , you can have it cheap or you can have it quality , pick two of three . industrial designer: Yeah , 'cause you you just upping the number of chips that you need to deal with each different function . project manager: Well if we're gonna pick betwe e alright so we have to pick between one of the two . What which , which do we suspect we should hold o we should hold on to ? marketing: Well , we already have research backing voice recognition as you know fiscally solvent . But I I I personally would tend to another direction but if that's what's gonna sell I think that's what we need to go with and maybe we can table this touch screen for our next model . industrial designer: I think the voice recognition is simpler , we already have the all the technology in-house , it's ready to go , it's packaged , it's project manager: What does the cost look like Ron ? Is it cheaper to do the V_R_ or to do the touch screen ? user interface: Well my p is project manager: Nathan ? marketing: . industrial designer: this is just off the top of my head keep in mind , but I think the voice recognition would they're both they're both gonna push the costs up , but , since we already have the technology in-house for the voice recognition project manager: . marketing: And we're still not then we don't have to deal with this battery issue nearly as much either , project manager: . So I'm getting alright so more or less you guys think that o o of the two of 'em , the voice recognition will be better . marketing: which for right now we can have it on the market sooner which is all in all our best option . industrial designer: marketing: So and when are we gonna have basic prototypes coming up next that's you guys's next step right ? project manager: Yeah , well we'll we'll sic we'll sort out what it what f what else we're gonna talk about for the prototype industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but yeah that's our next step , it'll be a developing of prototype . industrial designer: Are we going to talk now about the materials that we're gonna use for the case and all those things ? project manager: Yes . Would the solar power be enough to fuel a voice recognition ? Or this kinesthetic one , would that be enough to fuel a voice recognition remote control ? industrial designer: the solar power definitely would be but I think just to keep people from getting annoyed , 'cause sometimes solar power fails and there's no way round that , we should install a small backup battery . industrial designer: Just to cover those moments when for whatever reason , the remote hasn't been exposed to marketing: Well what of people with like the T_V_ in their basement , project manager: . marketing: like what if wha we can't guarantee sunlight everywhere so having a secondary source is probably industrial designer: It's true . Yeah , it works about the same as a solar powered calculator , marketing: industrial designer: and you know how those those don't really require that much light , user interface: Calculator . industrial designer: but obviously a little more light than a calculator , but we're not talking about a lot of light . Doesn't have to be out taking a sunbath for a few hours a day or anything . project manager: What do you think Ron ? user interface: I'm willing to agree with everything that's been said . If we're really not handling the remote control to a great extent we could possibly get away from the idea of having a hand-held remote control and maybe kind of have a round remote control that kind of looks like a paperweight or something like that , kind of a sleek little neat thing that sits on your table or something . industrial designer: Why , why moving away from hand-held , why ? user interface: Just a thought . industrial designer: What's the idea ? user interface: Well if you don't need to pick it up it could kind of be a selling point . marketing: I if it's got voice recognition it can be technically anywhere in your room and still do its job . Do you think people that are people that buy a remote , are they always gonna wanna use the voice recognition or is it just something that they do sometimes . marketing: True , and i probabl I think we're banking on selling it to more than just voice recognition people , like we want it to work fundamentally as a basic manual too , project manager: Well we have to have buttons on it too as well . project manager: But that's done , that's no bother if you look at the catalogue from places like with sharper image or whatever you know they might have or like who is it , Apple makes these really pretentious speakers with the th sub-woofers you know like clear and glass and you know marketing: project manager: And maybe a menu button and so forth , you know use a channel button to scroll through the menu d if they want to record programmes or whatever you know we can sort that out . Maybe something that looks nice on a table is would be good , even though and hand-held the same time . user interface: I think it's all about following Apple's lead on a lot of these things . project manager: Yeah , a nice although we do wh is I'm recalling that she mentioned that we n need to get away from the surgical white kind of brushed aluminium thing marketing: Right . project manager: but you could have a very tasteful wood coloured or earth tone kind of marketing: That would be kinda neat . And the the material like the plastics and so forth , we were discussing that being using like a rubber kind of softer feel , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: li lik if you feel the the tip on this pen it's a bit gives just a bit . project manager: something where it's a a more advanced f form of plastic that has some kind of a tactile response to it . marketing: Yeah , which is the next big thing , so that's not gonna hurt us either . user interface: project manager: Yeah let's see if we can do a squishy non-remote control-looking remote control . industrial designer: project manager: But to be fair , yeah , you just c you could just put it literally put it on the the ni the coffee table next to the telly and say volume up . I guess we'll a that's gonna be a thing , if we run a bit over-budget , that might be okay , . industrial designer: Sorry about the lack of information on cost , I just haven't been provided that information by our manufacturers marketing: Okay . project manager: We'll have more of an idea when the prototype have more of a industrial designer: and I'm just having to guess . , so user interface: project manager: we've revisited the touch screen and more or less ruled that out , I think so we're more or less con we wh wh we're more or less in agreement that we want to have a a simple kind of function , you know , not too complex . Well when the majority of people are only using the most primary functions on a daily basis , although I'm not saying we should completely rule out major functions , they should be secondary , at least if not functionally then visually , like those shouldn't be industrial designer: Right . marketing: Take precedence , industrial designer: If , if we're not going the touch-screen route then we can just incorporate maybe something that folds out marketing: yeah . industrial designer: like what you often see on these kinds of remotes is the most basic functions up here project manager: . marketing: Well and do we wanna consider like an iPod screen which isn't a touch screen but you're still scrolling through menu options , in p user interface: Think then we're hitting our cost issue again . project manager: Yeah marketing: True , project manager: we've also got the the me the thing of , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: if we're gonna have a non-remote-looking remote , how do we yeah . project manager: we could do a slide or a compartment , you know , like if it say it's a lit little vaguely ovoidal type of thing , it'd be easy to have a compartment in there . project manager: Or you know , a b a b a a series of you know three or four buttons with a menu button and then a side an s up and down type of thing , like on like on a D_V_D_ player . You know you see the modern D_V_D_ players'll just have a menu button on the side and then four buttons around them marketing: industrial designer: So are we gonna are we talking we need to figure out what kind of buttons we're going to use , are we going to use scroll buttons ? Rubber buttons ? project manager: Well it seems like I dunno it seems to me that we could just do the stick with the rubber 'cause since we're probably gonna be using some kind of rubber for the outside case marketing: Yeah . user interface: I think to a certain extent we have to stick with kind of a little bit traditional in terms of the buttons and then and then make our unique feature our casing and what not and our voice command . Well no it's basic just like four directions that are that can use as menu or channel and volume or however you wanna do it , are really versatile and everybody's already got them to some extent on the remotes they already own so it's not like we're dealing with everybody relearning things 'cause that's not something anybody's gonna wanna buy a new for . That seems to be selling and we we've more or less agreed that we want to kar target this youth market , . project manager: Especially now with eighteen to thirty five year olds being such a large quantity of the population . Yeah alright , well , more or less covered what we need to cover I think fi an an any final thoughts before we think about doing the protot moving on to the prototype . project manager: The , yeah okay I was just gonna assign tasks in the next b anyth any oth user interface: Sure . industrial designer: have we decided that we are gonna go with different style cases for different people ? project manager: . industrial designer: Or are we just going to go with one ? ..It's very , it's very hard thing to predict because you have different cases marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: and that might open up your market a little bit obviously , but if you have just one case and it doesn't go very well . industrial designer: but obviously having more cases also costs more so project manager: Well then again colours wouldn't be so hard to do , you could have a , you know , a kind of a natural wood colour , like a stained wood and , I don't know , olive green or something . project manager: That wouldn't be so much of a problem to incorporate into the colour of the thing . user interface: And again copying iMac's kind of for iPod Mac Apple's colour scheme . project manager: Yeah , I think that's probably a good id okay so let's work on multiple case colours . But yeah , stick with the same kind of kinda yeah , the same basic non-remote kind of remote design . I want the I'd like Nathan , I'd like you to work on just the basic look and feel , what can we accomplish , given these parameters that we're just gonna sort of have this kind of non-remote remote . project manager: And Ron if you can figure out how probably best to lay out this idea of this simple design with the voice recognition built in and also this kind of drop down or s on the side kind of menu options simple . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: And also specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches as well . project manager: So that's what to start with for now , is that alright , you guys feel clear about this ? marketing: Cool

The Project Manager initially suggested placing a large version of the company's logo in the middle of the remote, but User Interface raised concerns about the size and usability of the remote. They pointed out that a large logo would make the remote too big and wide to fit comfortably in one hand, and the buttons would have to be smaller as a result. User Interface proposed an alternative design, suggesting a curved shape resembling a hand with scroll buttons on the side. The User Interface also proposed incorporating a voice recognition system instead of a handheld model, but the Industrial Design team argued that it was necessary for the remote to be able to be held in hand. They believed that not everyone would always use the voice recognition system and that a round shape would be inconvenient. When discussing the financial aspect, User Interface suggested making the remote environmentally friendly by not using batteries, but Industrial Design disagreed. They argued that solar cells may not always work reliably, and setting up a solar system would be expensive. In terms of technology, the Industrial Designer noted that while the complexity of a phone is higher than that of a remote control, the price of the two cannot be compared even though they may look similar.

What were the disagreements between User Interface and Industrial Design regarding the outer design, shape, financial issues, and price of the remote control?

grad e: OK , so for for For people wearing the wireless mikes , like like this one , I find the easiest way to wear it is sorta this this sorta like that . phd h: This is chan channel channel one one two three grad f: Channel five , channel five . What do you do , grad e: It 's actually a lot more comfortable then if you try to put it over your temples , grad f: Test , test test . grad e: And then also , for for all of them , if your boom is adjustable , the boom should be towards the corner of your mouth , grad f: Test test . grad e: and about a a thumb to a thumb and a half distance away from your mouth , phd a: basically it wasn't adapting anything . So why didn't you get the same results and the unadapted ? grad e: so so Jane , you could actually do even a little closer to your mouth , phd h: It 's not always possible . phd a: ? phd d: Why didn't you get the same results and the unadapted ? postdoc g: I could can this be adjuste like this ? grad e: but phd a: Oh , because when it estimates the transformer pro produces like a single matrix or something . grad f: Hello ? grad e: we could we could up the gain slightly if you wanted to . phd c: Who 's channel B ? grad e: but , channel B is probably Liz . phd c: So can you talk a bit ? I thought it might be too phd h: OK , yeah , channel B , one two three four five . grad e: everyone should have at least two forms possibly three in front of you depending on who you are . grad e: we we 're doing a new speaker form and you only have to spea fill out the speaker form once but everyone does need to do it . grad e: We we had a lot of discussion about the variety of English and so on so if you don't know what to put just leave it blank . I I designed the form and I don't know what to put for my own region , phd a: Mmm . phd a: may I make one suggestion ? Instead of age put date of year of birth grad e: Sure . phd a: because age will change , but The year of birth changes , you know , stays the same , usually . phd c: A actually , wait a minute , grad e: Birth year ? postdoc g: Although on phd a: Yeah . postdoc g: course on the other on the other hand you could you view it as the age at the time of the phd c: On the other side , phd a: Well the thing is , if ten years from now you look at this form knowing that phd c: yeah . postdoc g: Yes , but what we care about is the age at at the recording date rather than the phd c: O yeah . grad e: and then there will be attached to this a point or two these forms so that you 'll be able to extract the date off that phd a: And so then you also have a digits form which needs to be filled out every time , the speaker form only once , the digit form every time even if you don't read the digits you have to fill out the digits form so that we know that you were at the meeting . OK ? And then also if you haven't filled one out already you do have to fill out a consent form . professor b: So grad e: OK so should we do agenda items ? professor b: oh that 's a good idea . Anything else ? phd c: I guess what time do we have to leave ? Three thirty ? phd a: Yeah . phd c: Well , I I sent out an email s couple hours ago so with Andreas ' help Andreas put together a sort of no frills recognizer which is gender - dependent but like no adaptation , no cross - word models , no trigrams a bigram recognizer and that 's trained on Switchboard which is telephone conversations . and thanks to Don 's help wh who Don took the first meeting that Jane had transcribed and you know separated used the individual channels we segmented it in into the segments that Jane had used and Don sampled that so so eight K and then we ran up to I guess the first twenty minutes , up to synch time of one two zero zero so is that that 's twenty minutes or so ? yeah because I guess there 's some , grad e: Or so . phd c: and Don can talk to Jane about this , there 's some bug in the actual synch time file that ah I 'm we 're not sure where it came from but stuff after that was a little messier . phd c: grad e: I was that did that did that recording have the glitch in the middle ? postdoc g: I 'm puzzled by that . phd c: There 's there 's a postdoc g: Oh there was a glitch somewhere . phd c: yeah , so that actually grad f: Was it twenty minutes in , phd c: if it was twenty minutes in then I don't know postdoc g: I forgot about that . grad f: I thought phd a: Well it was interesting , postdoc g: Well , they phd a: suddenly the the overall error rate when we first ran it was like eighty percent grad e: I don't remember when it is . postdoc g: but I was able to can transcribe phd a: but i looking at the first sentences looked much better than that and then suddenly it turned very bad and then we noticed that the reference was always one off with the it was actually recognized phd c: Wel grad e: Oh no . phd c: No actually it was yeah i it was a complicated bug because they were sometimes one off and then sometimes totally random so grad f: yeah , I was pretty certain that it worked up until that time , postdoc g: Oh . grad f: so phd c: but that that will be completely gone if this synch time problem postdoc g: Yeah . grad e: The the glitch phd a: So so we have everything recognized but we scored only the first whatever , up to that time to postdoc g: And the only glitch grad e: yeah . grad e: Th - the postdoc g: The the well wait professor b: what was the score ? phd c: So here 's the actual copy of the email postdoc g: we should say something about the glitch . postdoc g: Cuz it 's it 's it 's h it 's it 's very small phd c: so does this glitch occur at other grad e: There there there 's an acoustic glitch that occurs where the channels get slightly asynchronized postdoc g: very small . grad e: so the that that problem has gone away in the original driver believe it or not when the SSH key gen ran the driver paused for a fraction of a second professor b: . grad e: and so the channels get a little asynchronous and so if you listen to it in the middle there 's a little part where it starts doing doing click sounds . professor b: So phd c: And is it only once that that happens ? grad e: But yeah phd c: OK . phd c: There 's the previous page has some more information about sort of what was wrong professor b: so so un unsurprisingly Adam is the golden voice , phd c: but grad e: But that shouldn't affect anything phd c: OK so that 's actually postdoc g: S and it professor b: you see this here ? phd c: It y it 's grad e: yeah yeah " bah " phd c: OK no phd a: Oh , and phd c: What happens is it actually affects the script that Don phd d: Huh . phd c: if we know about it then I guess it could always be checked for it grad e: Well the acoustic one shouldn't do anything . phd c: but they grad f: Yeah , I don't know exactly what affected it postdoc g: I agree . phd a: I I have grad f: but I 'll I 'll talk to you about it , phd a: Yeah . postdoc g: you know , I I had no trouble hearing it and and having time bins grad e: I do remember seeing once the transcriber produce an incorrect XML file where one of the synch numbers was incorrect . phd c: Well , the the synch time the synch numbers have more significant digits than they should , grad f: That 's what happened . grad f: There was yeah , phd c: right ? There 's things that are l in smaller increments than a frame . phd c: And so then , you look at that and it 's got you know more than three significant digits in a synch time then that can't be right grad e: Oh OK so that 's grad f: . phd c: so anyway it 's it 's just grad e: yeah sounds like a bug . phd c: that 's why we only have twenty minutes but there 's a significant amount of grad f: Non - zero ? there are like more cuz there 's a lot of zeros I tacked on just because of the way the script ran , grad e: The other one I saw was that it yeah . grad e: The other one I saw was non non - monotonic synch times grad f: OK . phd c: there 's no the language model for Switchboard is totally different so you can see some like this Trent Lott which phd d: Trent Lott . phd c: there 's a lot of perfect ones and good ones and all the references , you can read them and when we get more results you can look through and see grad e: I and as I said I would like to look at the lattices phd a: grad e: because it sounded like even the ones it got wrong it sort of got it right ? phd c: Well so I guess we can generate grad e: Sounds likes ? phd a: There are a fair number of errors that are , you know where got the plural S wrong or the inflection on the verb wrong . phd c: grad e: Yeah , and who cares ? And and there were lots of of course the " " - s , " in on " - s " of " - s . phd a: Mmm , so if phd c: there 's No those are actually phd a: Yeah . phd c: so is it like PZM is three words , it 's PZM , phd a: phd c: there 's nothing There 's no language model for PZM or grad e: Right . phd c: grad e: Did you say there 's no language for PZM ? phd c: No language model , those grad e: Do you mean so every time someone says PZM it 's an error ? Maybe we shouldn't say PZM in these meetings . phd c: Well well there 's all kinds of other stuff like Jimlet and anyway there grad e: Yeah , that 's right , Jimlet . professor b: Well , we don't even know what that means , phd c: so but this is really encouraging because professor b: so I grad e: Yeah , that 's right . phd c: so , the bottom line is even though it 's not a huge amount of data it should be reasonable to actually run recognition and be like within the scope of of r reasonable s you know Switchboard this is like h about how well we do on Switchboard - two data with the Switchboard - one trained mostly trained recognizer grad e: Right . phd c: and Switchboard - two is got sort of a different population of speakers and a different topic grad e: Excellent . phd c: and they 're talking about things in the news that happened after Switchboard - one so there was @ @ so that 's great . Yeah so we 're in better shape than we were say when we did had the ninety - three workshop phd c: professor b: and we were all getting like seventy percent error on Switchboard . phd c: Oh yeah professor b: you know phd c: this is really , phd a: Mmm . grad e: Well especially for the very first run , you phd a: Oh it 's the professor b: Yeah . phd c: yeah grad e: the first run I ran of Switchboard I got a hundred twenty percent word error but phd c: So and what al also this means is that postdoc g: Right . phd c: grad e: Not Switchboard , phd a: Well it 's phd c: there 's a bunch of things in this note to various people grad e: Broadcast News . phd c: especially I guess with Jane that that would help for since we have this new data now in order to go from the transcripts more easily to just the words that the recognizer would use for scoring . I had to deal with some of it by hand but I think a lot of it can be automated s by professor b: Oh one thing I guess I didn't get so you know the language model was straight from from bigram from Switchboard the acoustic models were also from Switchboard or or phd a: Yeah . professor b: So they didn't have anything from this acoustic data in yet ? postdoc g: That 's amazing . phd c: And actually we actually used Switchboard telephone bandwidth models postdoc g: That 's amazing . phd a: Well that 's those are the only we ones there are , professor b: Yeah . phd c: which I guess phd d: I was just gonna say , phd c: so that 's the on that 's the only acoustic training data that we have a lot of phd d: yeah . phd c: and I guess Ramana , so a guy at SRI said that there 's not a huge amount of difference going from professor b: Right . phd c: it 's it 's not like we probably lose a huge amount but we won't know because we don't have any full band models for s conversational speech . phd d: It 's probably not as bad as going f using full band models on telephone band speech phd c: So . professor b: Yeah , phd c: Right , so it 's so professor b: but for Broadcast News when we we played around between the two there wasn't a huge loss . phd c: Yeah phd a: I should I should say that the language model is not just Switchboard phd c: so I wou so that 's good . phd a: it 's also there 's actually more data is from Broadcast News but with a little less weight phd c: Yeah . phd c: I guess Switchboard was before phd a: By the way just for fun we also ran , phd c: . phd a: so just for the heck of it I ran that grad e: And it said a hundred percent male ? phd a: and it might be reassuring for everybody to know that it got all the genders right . phd c: The j phd a: Yeah so grad e: Oh it did ? postdoc g: Oh that 's I 'm glad . grad e: It got all two genders ? phd c: Yeah but you know Jane and Adam have you kn about equal performance phd a: Yeah . phd c: and and that 's interesting cuz I think the their language models are quite different so and I I 'm pretty sure from listening to Eric that , you know given the words he was saying and given his pronunciation that the reason that he 's so much worse is the lapel . postdoc g: That makes a lot of sense , phd c: So it 's nice now if we can just sort of eliminate the lapel one when when we get new microphones postdoc g: yeah . professor b: Yeah I I I would bet on that too phd c: that would be worth it professor b: cuz he certainly in that when as a as a burp user he was he was a pretty strong one . phd c: he he he sounded to me just from he sounded like a , professor b: Yeah . phd c: and and again this is without a lot of the sort of bells and whistles that we c can do with the SRI system and we 'll have more data and we can also start to maybe adapt the language models once we have enough meetings . phd a: clearly there are with just a small amount of actual meeting transcriptions thrown into the language model you can probably do quite a bit better because the phd c: Yeah . It 's pretty good so then professor b: Have to add PZM and so on grad e: And I have to try it on the far field mike professor b: but phd c: PZM grad e: yeah . phd c: and then there 's things like for the transcription I got when someone has a digit in the transcript I don't know if they said , you know one one or eleven and I don't know if they said Tcl or TCL . there 's things like that where , you know the we 'll probably have to ask the transcribers to indicate some of those kinds of things but in general it was really good and I 'm hoping and this is this is good news because that means the force alignments should be good and if the force alignments , it 's good news anyway but if the force alignments are good we can get all kinds of information . For example about , you know prosodic information and speaker overlaps and so forth directly from the aligned times . so that 'll be something that actually in order to assess the forced alignment we need s some linguists or some people to look at it and say are these boundaries in about the right place . Because it 's just gonna give us time marks phd d: But you know grad e: Well we 've done that for one meeting . grad e: I 'm sorry just for overlaps is we did it for not not for words . So this would be like if you take the words you know and force align them on all the individual close talk close talking mikes then how good are these sort of in reality grad e: Right . phd c: and then I was thinking it grad e: So we might want to take twenty minutes and do a closer word level transcription . phd c: Oh or i have someone look at the alignments maybe a linguist who can say you know roughly if these are OK and how far away they are . phd c: but I think it 's gotta be pretty good because otherwise the word recognition would be really b crummy . phd c: It wouldn't necessarily be the other way around , if the wor word recognition was crummy the alignment might be OK but if the word recognition is this good the alignment should be pretty good . professor b: I r phd d: I wonder if this is a good thing or a bad thing though , if we 're pr grad e: That we 're starting so well ? phd d: yeah if we 're producing a database that everybody 's gonna do well on professor b: Oh grad e: Don't worry about it w d that 's that 's the close talking mikes . Try it on the P Z Ms and and professor b: Yeah , which I would which well n n n n phd d: So the real value of the database is these ? phd h: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: Yeah , abso well no but professor b: there 's still just the w the percentages and , they 're not a as we 've talked about before there 's probably overlaps phd c: This i yeah . professor b: there 's probably overlaps in in in fair number in Switchboard as well so but but there 's other phenomena , it 's a meeting , it 's a different thing and there 's lots of stuff to learn with the close talking mikes but yeah certainly I 'd like to see as soon as we could , maybe get some of the glitches out of the way but soon as we could how well it does with say with the P Z Ms or maybe even one of the phd c: Right . professor b: and see if it 's , you know is it a hundred twenty percent or maybe it 's not maybe if with some adaptation you get this down to fifty percent or forty - five percent or something and and then if for the PZM it 's seventy or something like that that 's actually something we could sort of work with a little bit phd c: Yeah . professor b: so phd c: No I think it 's really , this way we least have a baseline we know that for instance the transcripts are very good so once you can get to the words that the recognizer which is a total subset of the things you need to understand the the text yeah they 're pretty good so and and it 's converting automatically from the XML to the chopping up the wave forms and so forth it 's not the case that the end of one utterance is in the next segment and things like that which we had more problems with in Switchboard so that 's good . And let 's see there was one more thing I wanted to to mention I can't remember Sorry can't remember . phd c: well it was , I really didn't do this myself grad e: Yeah , it 's really good . phd c: so Andreas set up this recognizer and by the way the recognizer all the files I 'm moving to SRI and running everything there so I brought back just these result files and people can look at them so phd a: We we talked about setting up the SRI recognizer here . That 's you know if if there are more machines here plus people can could run their own you know variants of of of the recognition runs certainly doable . postdoc g: Which is so this issue of the legalistic aspects of the pre - sent you know pre - adapted Yeah , well , so what is the the data that you take into SRI , first first question , you 're maintaining it in in a place that wouldn't be publicly readable that that kind of stuff , right ? phd a: U phd c: From the outside world or postdoc g: By people who are not associated with this project . Although I sh grad e: That that 's not the issue , phd c: de audio data itself ? grad e: it 's just the audio data itself , until people have a chance to edit it . phd c: Right now they 're not they 're in the speech group directories which so I will postdoc g: Great . professor b: Yeah so we just have to go through this process of having people approve the transcriptions , phd c: Yeah OK . postdoc g: Yeah , we had to get them to approve em and then i cuz cuz the other question I was gonna ask is if we 're having you know it 's but this this meeting that you have , no problem cuz I I well I I speak for myself grad e: It 's us . postdoc g: but but I think that we didn't do anything that but well anyway so I wouldn't be too concerned about it with respect to that although we should clear it with Eric and Dan of course but these results are based on data which haven't had the haven't had the chance to be reviewed by the subjects phd c: That 's true . postdoc g: and I don't know how that stands , if you if you get fantastic results and it 's involving data which which later end up being lessened by , you know certain elisions , then I don't know but I wanted to raise that issue , professor b: Well we , postdoc g: that 's all . professor b: once we get all this streamlined it may be sh it hopefully it will be fairly quick but we get the transcriptions , people approve them and so on it 's just that we 're grad e: Alright we need to work at a system for doing that approval so that we can send people the transcripts postdoc g: Great . grad e: and get back any bleeps that they want phd c: Yeah actually the bleeps are also an issue I thought . professor b: It 's gonna be a rare thing that there 's a bleep for the most part . phd a: U actually I had a question about the downsampling , I don't know who , how this was done but is is there are there any issues with downsampling phd c: Don did this . phd a: because I know that the recognizer that we use h can do it sort of on the fly so we wouldn't have to have it eh you know do it explicitly beforehand . And is there any i are there other d sev is there more than one way to do the downsampling where one might be better than another ? grad f: There are lots of w there are lots of ways to do the downsampling different filters to put on , phd a: OK . phd a: So so the th grad e: I don't think we even know which one I assume you 're using syncat to do it ? grad f: No , I 'm using SN SND are resample . grad e: Or sound resample ? phd c: Re - re ref grad e: Resample . phd a: So so the other thing we should try is to just take the original wave forms , grad e: And a few of the consonants . phd c: Yeah we could we could try that and and compare phd a: And and feed them to feed them to the SRI recognizer and see if if the SRI front - end does something . I I only downsampled them first cuz I was phd a: Well grad f: that 's just one line that 's one line of code to comment at phd c: yeah phd a: Right and and it doesn't is no more work for you know for us . phd c: Well they 're just bigger to transfer , that 's why I s downsampled them before but phd a: Well but they 're only twice as big so phd c: Well that was if it 's the same then we can downsample here phd a: it 's it 's just a phd c: but if it 's grad f: Although those eighty meg files take a while to copy into my directories phd c: Yeah . grad f: so , but no , it 's not i it wouldn't be a problem if you 're interested in it phd c: We could try that . phd a: Yeah it would be you know it would probably take about you know grad f: it would phd a: minus the transfer time it would it would take you know ten minutes to try and and and grad f: Yeah . grad e: It 's about a fifty minute drive , right ? phd a: And and if for some reason we see that it works better then we might investigate why phd c: Well it takes more disk space too so I was just phd a: and , you know , what Yeah . professor b: So you just train just different filters grad f: Yeah , I professor b: and so you 're just wondering whether the filter is grad f: Yeah , I can imagine it would be phd a: Right . phd c: So we could try that with this particular twenty minutes of speech and sort of see if there 's any differences . grad f: I guess there 's some phd a: You know a at some point someone might have optimized whatever filtering is done for the actual recognition performance . phd a: so grad e: It just seems to me that , you know small changes to the language model and the vocabulary will so swamp that that it may be premature to worry about that . so one is a half a percent better than the other I don't think that gives you any information . phd c: Well it 's just as easy to to give you the sixteen K individual , grad e: Yep . phd c: it was just more disk space you know for storing them professor b: Are you are you using mel cepstrum or PLP over there ? phd c: so phd a: Mel cepstrum . professor b: But but it wouldn't hurt to try , phd c: Could easily try phd a: That 's what I would assume but you never know , professor b: yeah . professor b: PLP uses auto - regressive filtering and modeling and so it can be sensitive to the kind of filtering that you 're doing phd a: professor b: but mel cepstrum might not b you wouldn't expect to be so much but phd c: Well we can try it if you generate like the same set of files just up to that point where we stopped anyway and just sti stick them somewhere grad f: Yeah , it 's it 's really not a problem . Don't stop at that part because we 're actually using the entire conversation to estimate the speaker parameters , grad f: Keep going . phd a: so shouldn't use you should s you know , get grad f: Yeah , I 'll I have to do is eh e the reference file would stay the same , phd c: OK . grad f: it 's just the individual segments would be approximately twice as long phd a: Mmm . grad f: and I could just replace them with the bigger ones in the directory , phd a: Right . phd c: I hand - edited the whole the whole meeting so that can be run it 's just Once we get the the bug out . postdoc g: One one question which is I I had the impression from this from this meeting that w that I transcribed that that there was already automatic downsampling occurring , phd a: Yeah . postdoc g: so it was so it 's like there 's already down grad e: There 's one level that 's already happening right here . professor b: so phd c: And that 's actually said in your meeting , grad f: . phd c: I I It 's like are we downsampling to sixteen ? professor b: It 's a digital audio orientation for the board phd c: Right . professor b: it 's in the monitor so it 's phd c: Thank God it 's not more than that . grad e: And I have no idea what filter it 's using , grad f: Is eight kilohertz is is eighty kilohertz generally accepted as like standard for voice ? grad e: so professor b: For telephone stuff . grad f: Yeah that 's what I was gonna say , like professor b: So it 's it 's it 's just that they were operating from Switchboard which was a completely telephone database grad f: so Oh , I see , so . professor b: Sixteen is more common for for broadband stuff that isn't grad f: Right . professor b: that isn't music and isn't telephone , phd c: And I guess if you 're comparing like if you wanna run recognition on the PZM stuff you would want you don't want to downsample the wh that professor b: yeah . phd c: right ? Well I don if it 's any better professor b: No actually I would think that you would you would get better you 'd get better high frequencies in the local mike . professor b: but who knows ? we do we we we we we wanna find all this stuff out , phd c: Yeah well we could try it . grad e: We 're gonna have plenty of low frequency on the P Z Ms with the fans . phd c: Oh yeah there was just one more thing I wanted to say which is totally unrelated to the recognition except that well well it 's sort of related but good news also I got well Chuck Fillmore agreed to record meetings but he had too many people in his meetings and that 's too bad cuz they 're very animated and but Jerry also agreed so we 're starting on on phd a: They 're less animated . phd c: Well but he has fewer he he won't have more than eight and it 's a meeting on even deeper understanding , EDU , so that sounds interesting . As a compliment to our front - end meeting grad e: Dot EDU ? phd c: and so that 's gonna start Monday and one of the things that I was realizing is it would be really great if anyone has any ideas on some kind of time synchronous way that people in the meeting can make a comment to the person whose gonna transcribe it or or put a push a button or something when they wanna make a note about " oh boy you should probably erase those last few " or " wait I want this not to be recorded now " or something like that s professor b: Weren't we gonna do something with a pad at one point ? postdoc g: The cross pads ? grad e: Yeah , we could do it with the cross pads . phd c: Cuz I was thinking you know if if the person who sets up the meeting isn't there and it 's a group that we don't know and this came up talking to to Jerry also that you know is there any way for them to indicate to make sure that the qu request that they have that they make explicitly get addressed somehow professor b: Yeah . phd c: so I don't know if anyone has ideas or you could even write down " oh it 's about three twenty five and " professor b: Well what I was just suggesting is is we have these this cross pad just for this purpose grad e: Yeah , and use that . professor b: I don't know if you know this or if it 's a question for the mail to Dan but is this thing of two eight channel boards a maximum for this setup or could we go to a third board ? grad e: I don't know . I I think that it 's the maximum we can do without a lot of effort because it 's one board with two digital channels . And so w I think if we wanna do that more than that we 'd have to have two boards , and then you have the synchronization issue . professor b: But that 's a question because that would if it was possible cuz it is i you know already we have a a a group of people in this room that cannot all be miked grad e: Right . professor b: and it 's not just cuz we haven't been to the store , right it 's phd d: What is the limit on each of those f fiber channels , is it the grad e: Eight . phd d: It just it 's eight channels come in , does it have do with the sampling rate ? grad e: It 's eight . But each each fiber channel has eight eight channels and there are two ch two fibers that go in to the card . professor b: It might be a hard limitation , grad e: So professor b: one thing is it the whole thing as I said is is all structured in terms of forty - eight kilohertz sampling so that pushes requirements up a bit grad e: Yeah . grad e: then we 'd also have to get another ADD and another mixer and all that sort of stuff . grad e: OK on the are we done with that ? So the oth topic is getting more mikes and different mikes , so I got a quote We can fit we have room for one more wireless and the wireless , this unit here is three fifty three hundred fifty dollars , it I didn't realize but we also have to get a tuner the receiver the other end , that 's four thirty and then also phd c: For for each ? phd d: Wow . grad e: And we just need one more so so professor b: Yeah at least w we got the good ones . grad e: and then also It turns out that the connector that this thing uses is proprietary of Sony phd d: Oh . grad e: So if we wanna use a different set headset the solution that the guy suggested and they apparently lots of people have done is Sony will sell you the jack with just wires coming out the end and then you can buy a headset that has pigtail and solder it yourself . And that 's the other solution and so the jacks are forty bucks apiece and the he recommended a crown CM three eleven AE headset for two hundred bucks apiece . professor b: There isn't this some sort of thing that plugs in , you actually have to go and do the soldering yourself ? grad e: Becau - the reason is the only only thing you can get that will plug into this is this mike or just the connector . The reason I ask is these sort of handmade wiring jobs fall apart in use so the other thing is to see if we can get them to do a custom job and put it together for this . grad e: Oh I 'm sure they would , they would just charge us , phd d: Well , and they 'd probably want quantity too , grad e: so . professor b: Well phd d: they 'd professor b: no they 'll just charge us more , so it 's this phd d: Mmm . grad e: So so my question is should we go ahead and get na nine identical head - mounted crown mikes ? professor b: Not before having one come here and have some people try it out . professor b: Because there 's no point in doing that if it 's not gonna be any better . grad e: So why don't we get one of these with the crown with a different headset ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: And see if it 's preferable and if it is then we 'll get more . phd c: Cuz I think the microphones are OK it 's just the the grad e: Right , it 's just they 're not comfortable to wear . phd c: Could make our own handbands and grad e: and he said they don't have any of these in stock but they have them in LA and so it will take about a week to get here . professor b: Yeah well it 's grad e: so OK to just go order ? professor b: We 're in this for the long term , yeah . grad e: and who is the contact if I wanna do an invoice grad f: Yeah . professor b: y right cuz so one is for the daisy chain so that 's fifteen instead of sixteen grad e: Without getting more stuff . phd c: Is is there any way we can have you know like a a wireless microphone that you pass around to the people who you know the extra people for the times they wanna talk that grad e: Probably . phd c: professor b: That 's not a dumb question , it 's a good idea , phd c: Well phd a: Like like you know Jerry Springer thing , professor b: yeah . grad e: I 'm just not sure how we would handle that in the grad f: That 's like the Conch . phd c: Well but phd d: Like at conferences phd a: you know r phd c: well but there might be a way to say that there are gonna be these different people grad f: See , look . phd c: and I don't know identifying somehow ? phd d: so nail the chairs down . professor b: No that no no phd a: professor b: that 's a very if we can't get another board and even if we can I have a feeling they 'll be some work . professor b: Let 's figure that we have eight which are set up and then there 's a ninth which is passed around to grad e: A hand - held , yeah . Kind of rules out overlap but but phd c: Well or also for you know if people are not professor b: Yeah . professor b: no no that 's grad e: Rather than get a phd c: No not the lapel . grad e: Well is the is the hand - held really any better ? phd d: Liz hates the lapel . professor b: No it no it depends on the hand - held grad e: Is awful ? professor b: but hand many hand - helds are built wi with sort of anti - shock sort of things so that it it is less susceptible to hand noises . They have What ? grad e: I wonder if they have one that will hook up to this or whether again we 'll have to wire it ourselves . phd d: Well , you wouldn't want it to hook there you 'd just want it to hook into the receiver in the other room , right ? professor b: No that 's you need a transmitter . grad e: What ? phd d: Is th isn't that built into the mike ? professor b: Oh I see . phd c: Yeah just these ones that they pass around with no you know wireless professor b: Yeah . grad e: It 's gonna be much easier to get one of these and just plug in a mike , isn't it ? phd d: But then the mike has to h phd a: Do you have to hand it around and if you have two pieces of professor b: No no phd c: Right . phd a: professor b: so right , so this is a good point , so yeah you have these these mikes with a little antenna on the end right ? grad e: OK . And do you think you would be able to use the same receiver ? professor b: I don't know . You 'll have to check with them , grad e: OK I 'll I 'll ask . professor b: and then just sort of have that as the and then you can have groups of twenty people or whatever and and phd c: Yeah because there 's only as Andreas pointed out actually I think in the large the larger the group the less interaction the less people are talking over each other phd a: Pretty soon . phd c: it just there might be a lot of people that speak once or twice and professor b: Right . grad e: OK so I guess people who have to leave can leave and do we have anything else to discuss or should we just do digits ? postdoc g: I I thought of some extra a couple of extra things I 'd like to mention . postdoc g: One of them is to give you a status in terms of the transcriptions so far . So as of last night I 'd assigned twelve hours and they 'd finished nine grad e: Yep , postdoc g: and my goal was to have eleven done by the end of the month , I think that by tomorrow we 'll have ten . phd c: it 's great professor b: Pretty close , postdoc g: So they 're still working . phd c: I j and this I got this email from Jane at like two in the morning or something phd d: Wow . phd c: so it 's really great postdoc g: It 's working out , thanks . And then also an idea for another meeting , which would be to have the transcribers talk about the data It 's sort of a a little bit a little bit phd c: That 's a great idea . phd c: That 's a great idea cuz I 'd like to g have it recorded so that we can remember all the little things , grad f: Yeah . phd d: So if we got them to talk about this meeting , it would be a meta meta meeting . Yeah , exa exactly I guess nested several layers , professor b: Now you have eight transcribers and there 's ten of us postdoc g: but professor b: so how do we do this , is the only thing . phd c: And have postdoc g: Well that 's what I 'm thinking , professor b: Oh . Have them talk about the data and they and they 've made observations to me phd c: that would be great . postdoc g: like they say you know this meeting that we think has so much overlap , in fact it does but there are other groups of similar size that have very little , you know it 's part of it 's it 's the norm of the group and all that and they have various observations that would be fun , I think . professor b: So maybe we could they could have a meeting more or less without us that to do this and we should record it postdoc g: OK . professor b: and then maybe one or two of them could come to one of these meetings and and could you know could tell us about it . phd c: It 's they will get to transcribe their own meeting but they also get paid for having a break grad e: That would be weird . phd c: and I think that 's a good idea , postdoc g: Yeah exactly , yeah . postdoc g: And then I wanted to also say something about the Fiscus John John Fiscus visit tomorrow . And Which is to say that w it 'll be from nine to one that I 'm going to offer the organization allow him to adjust it if he wishes but to be basically in three parts , the acoustic part coming first which would be basically the room engineering aspects other things and he 'll be also presenting what NIST is doing and and then number two would be sort of a the the transcription process so this would be a focus on like presegmentation and the modifications to the the multitrans interface which allows more refined encoding of the beginnings and ends of the overlapping segments which Dave Gelbart 's been doing and then and of course the presegmentation Thilo 's been doing and then the third part would and again he has some stuff that 's i relevant with respect to NIST and then the third one would be focus on transcription standards so at NIST he 's interested in this establishment of a global encoding standard I guess I would say and I want it , you know k yeah see what they 're doing and also present what what we 've chosen as ours and and discuss that kind of thing . And so but he 's only here until until one and actually we 're thinking of noon being lunch time so basically hoping that we can get as much of this done as possible before noon . So grad e: Oh , where you 're gonna meet ? postdoc g: yeah . Here mostly but I 've also reserved the BARCO room eh to figure out how that works in terms of like maybe having a live demonstration . professor b: OK but the nine o ' cl nine o ' clock will be i be in here . grad e: I assume we 're not gonna try to record it ? postdoc g: Oh I think that would be hard , yeah . professor b: So maybe do digits and recess ? grad e: Unless there 's anything else ? postdoc g: Yeah . grad e: should y we make him wear Andreas ' mike or would that just be too confusing ? professor b: Yeah . postdoc g: When we do this in the key in the key in the key it has to indicate that channel change , phd d: Does it mess up the forms ? postdoc g: right ? grad e: yeah I just don't know how we would do that , so . Currently I 'm taking my first graduate level courses in DSP and when I come back to Norway I 'm gonna continue with the more of a research project work kind of work . So this semester I 'm starting up with a with a small project through Dave Gelbart which I 'm taking a course with I got in touch with him and he told me about this project . What I 'm gonna try to do is use use ech echo cancellation to to handle the periods where you have overlapping talk . So currently I 'm I 'm just reading up on echo cancellation , s looking into the theory behind that and then hopefully I get some results . grad e: And are you staying at Berkeley or is are you just here a semester ? grad j: This is my second semester and last . grad j: So I leave professor b: He 's in the he 's in the cour two two five D course . grad j: Yeah , I 'm in Morgan 's course , professor b: So , yeah . About doing some of the echo cancellation stuff or possibly the spectroanalysis over the overlaps , so <doc-sep>We we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too not too hot , not too cold , they were you know , they were , far enough away that you got more background noise , and and so forth phd a: - huh . professor c: but they weren't so close that they got quite the you know , the really good No , th phd a: OK . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes , phd a: - huh . professor c: but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle . professor c: There 's , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we there seemed to be very strong opinions for , getting rid of lapels . phd a: The mike number is professor c: So , phd f: your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there . phd f: It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your phd a: OK . professor c: And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . phd f: So what we usually do is , we typically will have our meetings professor c: Yeah . One thing phd f: Sunil 's here for the summer ? professor c: Sunil 's here for the summer , right . , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe , and then just , I guess , progress reports individually , and then , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . phd f: I could say a few words about , some of the , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know . professor c: Yeah ? phd f: We So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , to use as sort of a compute farm . And , we ordered , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , in addition , we 're running So the plan for using these is , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to , run things using P - make and Customs . The simplest thing And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . , professor c: How about an email that points to the FAQ , phd f: there 's a c professor c: you know what I 'm saying ? phd f: Yeah , yeah . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can say " run dash command L S " , and , it 'll actually export that LS command to some machine in the institute , and , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and And that 's a simple way to get started using using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like " run command " , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're . professor c: So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines , phd f: So . Yeah , you know , I I sort of got started using the recognizer just recently and , I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , " , are you running two trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . grad g: I have I have a question about the , parallelization ? phd f: grad g: So , let 's say I have like , a thousand little little jobs to do ? phd f: grad g: how do I do it with " run command " ? do phd f: You could write a script , which called run command on each sub - job grad g: - huh . A thousand times ? phd f: right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that grad g: OK . , so , you know , you should you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , just because then it would keep other people grad g: Oh , too much file transfer and stuff . phd f: Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . phd f: so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use " run command " , to only have ten of those going at a time . , professor c: I remember I I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out . professor c: So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines phd f: professor c: and and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine . phd f: but , you can also If you have that level of parallelization , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use , P - make grad g: Just do P - make . phd f: and and you basically write a Make file that , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things , grad g: s phd f: and when you run P - make , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and and then a number , grad g: If you " Run command " , that I mentioned before , is doesn't know about other things that you might be running . phd f: So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once , phd d: Right . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run phd d: professor c: So " run command " doesn't use P - make , or ? phd f: It uses " export " underlyingly . But , if you i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running . professor c: So why would one use that rather than P - make ? phd f: Well , if you have , Like , for example , if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , an HTK training job that you know is gonna take , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , the machine you typically use , you can say " run command " and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and and run your job there . professor c: Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it phd f: Yes . And if you specify that , in in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from . phd f: But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and and they were at lunch , professor c: phd f: they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted your job will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . So which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus the attribute , you know , " no evict " , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . professor c: what what about I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you if something required if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ? phd f: professor c: and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ? phd f: Yeah , I I 'm not sure how that works . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev dev console or something . phd f: ? professor c: you sort of you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , " screw this " , phd f: Yeah , yeah . phd a: I need a little orientation about this environment and scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions phd f: OK . Yeah , and and also , Stephane 's a a really good resource for that if you can't find me . Well , why don't we , Sunil since you 're haven't haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully . phd a: yeah , after the submission the what I 've been working on mainly was to take take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in in ours . And then I found that , if if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . I just plug in I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . phd a: What I did was I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , narrow narrow band LDA filter that we submitted , I got new filters . And , so then after after that I I added , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that there there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a a mean and variance update time constant and which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But , I didn't I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . And , the other other thing what I tried was , I just , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the the w speech and nonspeech . And , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh . professor c: can you back up a second , I I I missed something , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , things got better again ? phd a: Yeah . phd a: With the different time constant I found that , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization , professor c: Oh . phd a: But I didn't play it with play play quite a bit to make it better than . The the other thing what I tried was the adding the , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the the second the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , use professor c: . phd f: So people won't even have to worry about , doing speech - nonspeech then . professor c: G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway , phd f: I see . professor c: and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what what are the best features that you should use . professor c: But but it might be In some ways it might be better t to rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with . phd f: So , are people supposed to assume that there is Are are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ? phd a: phd f: Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ? phd a: No . Like y you will you will You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you . professor c: So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better , phd a: Yeah . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . phd a: Yeah , so professor c: But but phd a: so that is when , the the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . phd a: Ye Yeah , and I I came back and I started working on , some other speech enhancement algorithm . , so I from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . phd a: so just to just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I I 've been working on this , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . phd a: So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . phd a: and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . professor c: S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So so now you 're you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here phd a: Yeah . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ? phd d: professor c: where you were also combining something both of you I guess were both combining something from the , French Telecom system with the u phd d: Right . professor c: I I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or ? phd d: phd d: we The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are , with noise removed . So then , one distinction is that , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to phd a: no there is a slight different . , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization professor c: Yeah . professor c: What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ? phd a: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features , phd a: Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like There may be a slight difference in the way phd d: right ? or ? phd a: because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . But , I th phd d: Yeah , well I think we should , have a table with all the result because I don't know I , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But , phd a: OK . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied , proposal - one system after this without well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the the LDA filters , phd a: - huh . phd d: and phd b: And the filter phd d: Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization ? phd a: Only LDA . So we just tried directly to to just , keep the system as it was and , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves , signif significantly . , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization . phd d: Because if we keep the value that was submitted , it doesn't help at all . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly phd a: Yeah . professor c: So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something phd d: Right . professor c: and see where i where the where they were different and what we can learn from it . phd d: because we change it the system to have phd a: Oh yeah , the the new LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off . phd d: And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , always better than it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , mainly because of , when you p you plug the , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and , phd a: Yeah . phd a: Because the your improvement on HM and will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . phd a: the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information . But they d the everything is like , but there that 's how they reduce why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some something on . professor c: But are they changing the weighting ? phd a: no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting . professor c: I guess I I haven't been part of the discussion , so , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual , phd a: Usual . professor c: Because , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ particular person 's car is like , or phd a: Mmm . phd a: Yeah , but actually the well well the well - matched , the the well - matched condition is not like , the one in TI - digits where , you have all the training , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . The well - matched has also some some mismatch in that which is other than the professor c: The well wa matched has mismatch ? phd a: has has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched phd f: Perfect to match . So remind me of what well - matched meant ? phd a: The the well - matched is like professor c: You 've told me many times . phd a: the the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing . phd a: It 's it 's phd d: Because it phd a: OK , it 's professor c: Yeah . So , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much You know , so it 's so it 's sort of saying if you phd f: It 's it 's not guaranteed though . phd a: the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually . professor c: Again , if you have enough if you have enough phd a: No yeah , yeah . professor c: So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , you you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and and record noise conditions , or something , and then I don't think that 's very realistic , I th phd a: professor c: I I you know , so I I I you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so . We are playing we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the , mel energies which I already tested but without the frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction . phd f: Is it is spectral subtraction typically done on the after the mel , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ? phd d: phd f: Does it matter , or ? phd d: I d I don't know . So - some of the proposal , we 're doing this on the bin on the FFT bins , phd f: . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's which one might be better or I phd f: . phd a: I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins . it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . phd d: Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both . phd a: The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement . phd a: And So , there 's something that is good about doing it , to cleaning it up once more . phd a: so we can phd d: So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing phd a: Yeah . That 's what professor c: Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing . professor c: maybe one or one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first . So , professor c: Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around , phd d: Yeah , professor c: you know ? phd a: So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace , phd d: phd a: just to see all some some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not . professor c: How is it I I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're that you 're adding together the two signals , how is how is that differ from signal subspace ? phd a: The signal subspace ? The professor c: Yeah . phd a: So , the the different the c the the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a phd a: Wiener filtering . Yeah , in general , you don't that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . , that was something that , Herve and I were talking about with , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy . phd a: So that that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage , professor c: Yeah . phd d: What was your point about about colored noise there ? phd a: Oh , the colored noise phd d: Yeah . phd a: the colored noise the the v the signal subspace approach has , it it actually depends on inverting the matrices . phd a: it has a it 's It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite . phd a: So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise professor c: Yeah . phd a: and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again . if you sort of you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid phd a: Yeah . professor c: and then you then then add a little bit l noise noise addition , that sort of what J JRASTA does , in a way . professor c: If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little adding a little noise , phd a: Huh ? - huh . And maybe we well we find some people so that , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , it 's it 's a nonlinear eh , transformation in the cepstral domain . phd d: And , there is a way to approximate this using , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect . professor c: Who is doing this ? phd d: w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada , phd b: Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend . professor c: Who 's the guy in Grenada ? phd d: phd b: Jose Carlos Segura . professor c: Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of , noise removal , with with these other things we have , phd d: But for sure there 's required to that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things professor c: Oh yeah . , professor c: Well one of the seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here , phd d: I professor c: cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too or I guess not next week , phd d: - huh . professor c: week and a half , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to to pick two pol two plausible things , and and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better , phd d: professor c: and then , you know , but , w , he 'll have some ideas on that too . phd a: The other thing is to , Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization to make it work @ @ . professor c: So they 're making there Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive artificially added noise or something ? phd a: Yeah , yeah . professor c: Sort of a sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ? phd a: Yeah . professor c: And then they 're they 're , generating HTK scripts to phd a: Yeah . There are they have there is no I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State , professor c: Mis - Mississippi State maybe , phd a: yeah . professor c: well we 've Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . professor c: and some of the focus conditions were noisy and and phd a: It had additive n professor c: But we but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi , multi - stream and and so forth . professor c: and and , that we have , for the , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just noisy and reverberant actually . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with with , connected digits . professor c: but , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard , Switchboard recognizer , phd a: Yeah . You just take the Switchboard trained ? Yeah , professor c: That 's that 's what we 're doing , phd a: yeah . professor c: but we 're hop , actually , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , some of the large vocabulary data . , I guess no one had done yet done test one on the distant mike using , the SRI recognizer and , phd f: I don't not that I know of . professor c: You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the the CPU or something trying to trying to do it , phd f: That 's right professor c: but , yeah . But , you 're right that that that 's a real good point , that , we we don't know yeah , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the in the evaluation . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end , phd b: I don't have good result , with the inc including the new parameters , professor c: or ? phd b: I don't have good result . phd a: With what what other new p new parameter ? grad g: You 're talking about your voicing ? professor c: Yeah . professor c: seeing as how Sunil , phd b: I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter , professor c: yeah . phd b: that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero phd a: phd b: and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for of the spec si , spectrum of the signal and and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank . phd b: and you have the on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank . phd b: You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal . phd b: because , suppose we we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n , noise . phd b: To to To The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound . And I did experiment I need to change to obtain this new feature I need to change the size the window size size . phd b: And I do I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence silence phd a: Unvoiced . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly . phd a: is it with TI - digits , or with ? phd b: And No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically . phd b: And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse . professor c: we 've had these discussions before , and and one of the things that struck me was that , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we whenever you condense things , in an irreversible way , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for particular , phonetic units . And so the question is , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking " oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice voiced property whatever . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , " well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? " So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network , phd b: To know professor c: and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or or whatever phd f: Wi - with what targets ? phd a: Voiced , unvoiced is like professor c: no . professor c: No the just the same same way we 're using , the same way that we 're using the filter bank . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or , adding probabilities , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here . professor c: Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination . professor c: But I I I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and and , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . professor c: but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it . professor c: So , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So , phd a: Yeah , d professor c: part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not . professor c: so anyway , it 's just a thought , that that if we if we had that maybe it 's just a baseline , which would show us " well , what are we really getting out of the filters " , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , phd d: professor c: you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . phd a: What one one p one thing is like what before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the th what we did was like , I I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the on that . phd a: That is just a binary feature and that seems to be improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . phd d: Wait I I 'm sorry ? phd a: Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline . Well , in in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech , phd d: Yeah . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech , phd a: OK . professor c: And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints . phd a: There was a paper in ICASSP this ICASSP over the extracting some higher - order , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . phd a: It wa it was taking the , It was about finding the higher - order moments of Yeah . professor c: Yeah , phd a: And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or professor c: cumulants , yeah . professor c: Yeah , but again You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does . professor c: So n neural network , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you phd a: trying to f to Moments , yeah . I can I can just , share a little bit Sunil hasn't hasn't heard about , what I 've been doing . grad g: so , I told you I was I was I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , trying to propose , your next your your following years of of your PHD work , trying trying to find a project to to define and and to work on . So , I 've been , looking into , doing something about r , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , the idea is you have all these these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , frication , that kinda stuff , building robust , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . , and , these these primary detectors , will be , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , doing things , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , graphical models to to detect these these , acoustic events . And , so I I been I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , exactly what what kind of acoustic events I need , what , what acoustic events will provide a a good enough coverage to in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , once I decide a set of acoustic events , h how do I how do I get labels ? Training data for for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the the models themselves , the the primary detectors . , so , I kinda see like , after after building the primary detectors I see , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into into a , Gaussian mixtures back - end , and doing recognition . grad g: professor c: By by the way , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at . professor c: you know , if you if a multi - band approach was helpful as as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced , grad g: And so , this this past week , I 've been , looking a little bit into , TRAPS , and doing doing TRAPS on on these e events too , just , seeing seeing if that 's possible . , and , other than that , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years . professor c: or , no ? grad g: well , s s som something like that . professor c: Suni - i d ' you v did did you find a place ? phd a: no professor c: Is that out of the way ? phd a: not yet . , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . And then , you 're coming back phd a: i , I I p I plan to be here on thirty - first . professor c: Thirty - first , phd a: Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to professor c: OK . professor c: They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for for for a while phd a: Yeah . grad e: You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . professor c: Do y wanna say anything about You you actually been , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were you were mentioning . Is that that something worth talking about , or ? grad e: it 's Well , it I don't think it directly relates . , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to , look at , how people respond to formant changes , I think . So he he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic , spectrum . And he wanted to look at , how the energy is moving over time in that spectrum and compare that to the to the listener tests . And to he he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . I found the roots of the , LPC polynomial to , track the peaks in the , PLP LPC spectra . phd a: well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the the Is that the aligned s professor c: It 's a r root LPC , of some sort . phd a: Oh , it 's like line sp professor c: Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they , phd a: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was was taking the LPC polynomial and and , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not . professor c: Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny values in in real speech , phd f: So you just You typically just get a few roots ? professor c: but . phd f: something like that ? professor c: And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but . So , if @ @ Every root that 's Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root is gonna be a c complex pair , phd f: So for each And if you look at that on the unit circle , one of these one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just So , f for the I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs professor c: Yeah . for real speech in real then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well . grad e: Mmm , professor c: And and what in in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK phd d: I professor c: because it was just a question of quantization . , we were just you know , storing It was We were doing , stored speech , quantization . professor c: But but , in your case , you know phd d: Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy grad e: But there 's some of that , yes . phd f: If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? h how is the speech created ? grad e: It was created from a synthesizer , and phd f: Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ? professor c: I bet it it might have may have been grad e: I d d this professor c: but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ? grad e: In in fact w we we could get , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , w one thing that the , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , is that I I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . grad e: but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . professor c: Yeah , so the actual So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . professor c: You 're getting something that is is , af strongly affected by the PLP model . So it 's a little It 's It 's It 's sort of sort of a different thing . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban , formant centers are phd f: Yeah . professor c: that 's Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as as what you grad e: professor c: But but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , band center and band width , and , But . So , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess , phd a: Yeah

The professor raised concerns about the lapel microphones being too close, rendering them unsuitable as representative microphones. It was unanimously agreed upon that these microphones tend to capture non-voice sounds, including breath, due to their common usage. The group then delved into the discussion of recognition results obtained from 20 minutes of close-talking microphone data. The results indicated a high level of recognition performance, showcasing the potential for forced alignment procedures and the analysis of other significant signal information such as prosody and overlapping speech. To further evaluate the recognition performance, it was decided to downsample the close-talking data and input it into the SRI recognizer for comparison. Additionally, the group expressed the urgency to test the far-field microphone data on the recognizer as soon as possible.

Summarize the discussion and findings regarding the microphone issues and data.

we'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you're doing , what your what your role is . I am Corinne Whiting and I will be the Marketing Expert and in each of the three phases I will have a different role . In the function design phase I will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and I'll be doing research to figure this out . In the conceptual design phase I will be dealing with trend watching and I'll be doing marketing research on the web . And then finally in the detailed design phase I will be doing product evaluation and so I will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . And the detailed design sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , things like fashions , what makes wha how we're gonna make it special . In the functional design phase I'm I'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , we'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . industrial designer: And the detailed design in the detailed design I'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , so we're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . so we've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , acquaintance which we've kinda done . of course we're a not only a electronics company but a fashion conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy and we want it to be easy to use . we've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design which basically is is the three of you . do we have any ideas of of maybe d let's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we're gonna design it and and how we're gonna do the detailing on it . project manager: So we want it to be a T_V_ remote or I do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: Oh right . But , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . user interface: I think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like I don't actually know . But is it just infra-red ? Is that standard ? project manager: I I think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: So if there's a g a way of finding it quite easily , I thought that'd be quite good quite a good feature . Ch project manager: So we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a marketing: Like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: Oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: It makes a noise , user interface: and it'd beep . project manager: there's a button on the T_V_ that you press industrial designer: . industrial designer: So user interface: Generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . user interface: I thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: Well there are of course certain restrictions , you can't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: Yeah . however one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much . industrial designer: How sturdy is it gonna be ? Do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: Okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: Yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: Yeah . project manager: then it user interface: It could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . What else it what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to be universal . It's something that we're supposed to sell for about twenty five Euros and you know , goals for profits are I think somewhere around fifty million Euros , what they wanna make on it , so . Also since we're partners of the International Remote Control Association , maybe we wanna make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: So marketing , you know , how maybe marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally appealing remote control out there . industrial designer: marketing: And maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'Kay . project manager: Do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? Maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . Some ideas ? We want it to be a b a ball , user interface: I'd I could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we'll draw up we'll draw up the ball and maybe th where the buttons are located . user interface: My original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle Maybe a hinge that'll have to be the strongest part of it . If that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . Thing is inside I think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , as few buttons inside as possible . Just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . It's looking a bit like something out of Star Wars at the moment though , to be fair . industrial designer: user interface: That was that was a sorta simple idea I had project manager: -huh . One problem you'd get with this design is the ball is a nice idea because of it's stability really , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it's a ball , it'll roll , so we'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: Yeah . The idea it didn't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: That's that's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . marketing: project manager: How would we go about making you know getting rid of our weak points ? What would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: Not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: E No no , project manager: but industrial designer: . project manager: What did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: N n marketing: project manager: You're the the Industrial Designer . industrial designer: I'm your Industrial Designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe I dunno . industrial designer: As as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between stability and design here , so . I can't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: Yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: It's not new , it's not innovative , it's you know , everybody does long remote because it's easy , user interface: Yeah . marketing: My idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: Yeah . user interface: maybe design something , that's sort of like suppose not everybody's everybody's hand's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . Because even I suppose even with the ball user interface: It still might be hard to project manager: it's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: But then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . industrial designer: if it's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . So for that there's project manager: Okay , so industrial designer: So project manager: unfortunately we've got about five minutes here to come up with our remote control idea and start rolling with it . What if we had what if we had not only say we went with the ball the ball function , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s to make it easier to hold on to . But if we're gonna make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . So if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here I guess , and then flat And then we have the problem with the hinge . So if we're flat on the bottom , it's not gonna roll away , it'll stay where we want . industrial designer: The question is also , I dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: that's true . industrial designer: It's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so I don't know if a lid is a good idea . From stabil stability point of view it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , the more we sell . We just have a ball user interface: But then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . What if we flipped it around here , so that it were Sorry , that doesn't look anything like what you had there . project manager: Course then it's it's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . industrial designer: Question is what makes those game pads functional ? W I think that's pretty much the form for full hand . project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: You know , all project manager: because it doesn't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and Batteries go weak as well , so after a while you have to point it towards the towards the equipment you wanna control with it , right ? So , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: Is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? So that either way you're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: of course it'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it'll it'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: True . industrial designer: but it's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: Put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you don't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . user interface: Even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , isn't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . user interface: and there's your s you kn you know which way you're gonna pointing it . project manager: Okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some Are good ideas , what are not . user interface: Does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: Obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , I think <doc-sep>Then I've I will also take notes during this meeting and I will send you a summary then as usual . We will then look at the evaluation criteria of the prototype presented by our two colleagues that make good work . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: And then we will see the financial aspects and the cost of the product . And end with the conclusion of this project and see whether it fits with it fulf if it fulfil the requirement or not . project manager: d let's start with the cost aspect so so I look at the aspect discussed last time , that is to say to have a standard battery , to have a yellow banana shaped case with a rubber material around it industrial designer: project manager: to be to feel spongy , user interface: Like a banana . project manager: So for the financial aspect it's okay , we can we can continue with this product as if , marketing: project manager: and we are now going to see the project evaluation with our marketing expert . marketing: So I made an evaluation and the the evaluation criteria is made according to the users' requirements and the market trends we talked about during the previous meetings . marketing: So we we want to have a product fancy look and feel , technologically innovative , easy to use , fashion , easy to find in a room , and robust , project manager: Yeah . marketing: and according to what you think about the this project you can make a one point , two point or seven point . marketing: The okay ? so fancy look and feel , what do you think ? project manager: Okay . user interface: Do you vote Christine ? marketing: eh ? user interface: Do you also vote ? marketing: No , I just want to see something project manager: Maybe we all have to agree on a common user interface: Well , we can very easily . So user interface: marketing: Need to project manager: this is your marketing: I don't know if you we ha we have to put one f If it's better or project manager: One is most . project manager: How much would you give on the fancy aspect , on the fashionable aspect ? marketing: Six s you can how much what ? project manager: How much would you you don't answer to this questionnaire ? marketing: Oh yes I I dunno , I think six , it's a good user interface: So it will have five point five average . project manager: Four ? industrial designer: A four also , because , except for the wheel , we don't have so much innovation . I I user interface: D are we including the voice are you glu are we including the voice in the end or not ? Huh ? project manager: No . project manager: Four ? So we have four , four f and five ? marketing: We can put four ? user interface: Yeah . Is it fashion ? project manager: Oh yeah , user interface: project manager: its its f its fruit fruit shape . marketing: Yeah it's fashion , because it's a fruit , user interface: Yeah , we can we can put a seven here . marketing: We have the lightning , or project manager: Yeah , we have the marketing: The lighting . project manager: we don't sesh especially have the lightning user interface: So you'll make the material transparent project manager: but marketing: user interface: so that it lights up completely , or project manager: So it's yellow . project manager: I think it's very easy to marketing: Seven ? project manager: I would say seven . marketing: Is it is it robust ? project manager: Yeah , it's rubber , made of rubber , industrial designer: f yeah , it's ru it's rubber . user interface: Yeah the only problem there might be which know , i if it's very sensitive , project manager: Yeah . user interface: I don't know project manager: But it is it is surrounded by rubber material . if we say that seven it's it's the better , project manager: Yeah , the be . industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , the top marketing: and when s six sit six are good it's a good p product , I think . user interface: Because I saw some phones that were banana shaped , wireless phones not mobile ones , wireless for the house , marketing: project manager: Yeah . user interface: quite big also , marketing: user interface: and they were selling something like a hundred Euros , two hundred Euros . project manager: I think the industrial designer: But almo also the complexity between a phone and a remote control is not cannot compare . user interface: it's much more complex , but project manager: So , I think , we can summarise . We we have the cost below our threshold and so we could sell at twenty five Euros and make i make profit . marketing: project manager: So the cost is in the budget , the evaluation is okay , so I th I think we can now open champagne and make a huge party . user interface: project manager: I don't know if it's provided by by the meeting staff . user interface: So what does the management say ? project manager: Sorry ? user interface: What does the management say ? project manager: I think we will have much bigger project next time and a much bigger salary as well <doc-sep>As you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , become acquainted with each other , have a little training on tools , create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . Okay , so we'll have a functional design individual work with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . Kate , why don't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , I guess industrial designer: yeah , if I can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: And while you're doing that we'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we're all gonna have to be able to walk around . project manager: industrial designer: Do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? project manager: I do not think so , user interface: Are we all gonna draw a cat ? project manager: I think it's just to try out the whiteboard . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: You can tell it's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . And the characteristics ? industrial designer: the favourite characteristics of the cat the whiskers I think , because they're the easiest to draw . Kate ? industrial designer: user interface: And they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you're doing your homework . industrial designer: Gosh , user interface: A shark ? industrial designer: why didn't I think of fish ? That's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: I like them because they're sleek project manager: Favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n swim in groups , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: marketing: Do you have a favourite one ? project manager: I'm afraid I'm with Steph . But I'm afraid I take the coward's way out , and the cat's looking the other way . Now we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold we're to sell it for twenty five Euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros . would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . Now if they cost twelve and a half , you're selling it for twenty five , you're making twelve and a half Euros each . and we're to make a profit of fifty million , that's t can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: yeah . I was just wondering if that's the If fifty percent is normal project manager: Mark-up ? marketing: B yeah . project manager: marketing: And and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: Yes , 'cause our market is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you gotta know how many we're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . Yeah , that's project manager: To give you a pretty good idea of where you're looking . In order to make fifty million Euros , and you're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: And if we make Any of you use of remote control for a television or D_V_D_ or something ? You're both nodding , industrial designer: That that that's the sorta product we're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a T_V_s and marketing: Yeah . Well I've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but I also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: It is true that you always sit around you know , you're sitting on your sofa and you wanna change something , there's five different remotes , and one for the D_V_D_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . marketing: project manager: Are there any ideas for the remote ? What would it be for and what group would be be for ? We have to think about that one . Like I've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: Yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there's a lotta buttons that I've got no idea what they do , like . marketing: because I think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it's like an volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . We don't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have channel up channel down . project manager: but the I think that's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: . project manager: And user , that's you S Steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . I think there's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and I think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but I think we all have to like each other to get this done . as it says , we're gonna get individual instructions , but I don't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so I think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . then I don't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things <doc-sep>project manager: Are we we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ? project manager: Yeah , I've got marketing: Right , both of them , okay . project manager: I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . , we want it to be original , something that's people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , first is the functional design , this is where we all go off and do our individual work , what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and sum up the characteristics of that animal . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger . Where did this come from ? project manager: Is that your lapel then ? user interface: yep . , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ? marketing: A kind of dog ? project manager: user interface: Yep . It's your best friend and your you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . marketing: Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little , project manager: industrial designer: Alright , okay . industrial designer: Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random . project manager: Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is marketing: user interface: . project manager: industrial designer: Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be project manager: industrial designer: because that looks like a beak now , so . Is it gonna be marketing: user interface: industrial designer: Well it was it was an at first project manager: it's gonna be a bird . industrial designer: firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican marketing: O industrial designer: but it can be a crocodile now actually . marketing: Beauti that's industrial designer: scary , strong , yeah that's about it I think . , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills , industrial designer: marketing: mine's are dreadful . industrial designer: Wo marketing: I hope that clicks in , I'll just I'll hold it on , okay . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: Oops , oh dear , what happened there ? project manager: Technical help . marketing: Okay , Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , . industrial designer: Okay , some sort of bird marketing: That's my dreadful that's the worst yet , that's it's meant to be an eagle project manager: A seagu user interface: Eagle , okay . marketing: you can tell it's a flying animal could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . marketing: Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ? project manager: Eagle . industrial designer: marketing: I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ? industrial designer: It's about user interface: One point four or something like that . industrial designer: so that project manager: D fifteen ? industrial designer: yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that . marketing: Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ? project manager: I think so , I think so , industrial designer: But project manager: I'll be able to pull it up , marketing: Yeah , okay . industrial designer: Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway . I think marketing: so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ? project manager: Yeah , production cost's at twelve fifty , so industrial designer: . project manager: which is marketing: In our first year ? project manager: Yi yes , yeah , I presume so . user interface: So then marketing: You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a accessible and usable by sort of all age groups project manager: marketing: just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone project manager: No , yeah . project manager: yes , yes , I don't think we have to I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , making that a key point , marketing: No . project manager: just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I've got we got we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up user interface: project manager: so we got one of the universal remote controls , that you programme each of your things into , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: that c project manager: but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but that was quite good , the fact that you could You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you . user interface: Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like industrial designer: Yeah , user interface: Okay . industrial designer: 'cause you marketing: My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions , project manager: . marketing: I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well . project manager: Yeah , the main that's the main stuff anyway , marketing: project manager: and you don't want to I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do marketing: . When they're when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it . project manager: 'Cause it doesn't make when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at , marketing: . marketing: Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display , user interface: marketing: I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus . user interface: And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe . project manager: What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ? user interface: You mean to save it lesser number . project manager: my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that . project manager: I don't think they tape things , industrial designer: Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so project manager: I don't think they use marketing: Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps , project manager: yeah , the age gap . industrial designer: Yeah , what it just needs to be as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do . project manager: I don't know , I d industrial designer: But I don't know how project manager: I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system . project manager: I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but my friend got a new one marketing: Right . project manager: and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me . industrial designer: Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get , marketing: project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ? user interface: Okay . marketing: Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things marketing: project manager: and also and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over . S project manager: I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about industrial designer: Y user interface: It might marketing: Yeah ? user interface: it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small . marketing: And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ? project manager: . project manager: right , okay industrial designer: No project manager: we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation . industrial designer: about what you're saying about the does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui marketing: Ah right . industrial designer: and it'd look quite good but marketing: But yeah , it doesn't have to be that , you know th that was my main point , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper , project manager: . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter , marketing: Right <doc-sep> and I like to show you the agenda for the meeting , I don't know if it was sent round to all of you . project manager: this is the the plan for today's meeting is firstly just to introduce the project briefly , although I'm sure you've actually got some of the information already . project manager: then we want to practice using some of the tools that we'll be using during the the course of the design project and the meetings , specifically the whiteboard over there . then we need to go through the specifics of our project plan and discuss come up with some preliminary ideas about it . we want it to be something original , something trendy and also something user friendly , so it has to be quite intuitive that people are able to use this product . The method that we're going to use to complete the project , that has three components as such . We're going the way we'll do that I think is to to work individually initially and then come together for meetings to to work on that . similarly with the conceptual design , we'll start off by working individually with our own expertise on our own laptops and then we'll bring what we've done together . industrial designer: I'm a bit confused about what's the difference between the functional design and conceptual design ? i is it just more detail , as I understand it ? project manager: I think it th w we're talking the the functional design is more your area of things where you'll be we want to look at what functions we need in the remote control industrial designer: Right . project manager: and what what specific things it it has to do industrial designer: project manager: but the conceptual design is perhaps bigger than that and includes the how people are going to use it and and that kind of thing . So whe where do we identify the components of our product ? I think it's it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the components of our product ? project manager: I think we'll we'll start that initially with the functional design already but then industrial designer: Okay . what I'd like us to do now is simultaneously introduce ourselves and start using some of the tools that we're using for for the project , specifically the whiteboard . project manager: So each person in turn , I'd like us to go up to the whiteboard , the pen's just underneath it there and draw your favourite animal and then tell everyone what the f your favourite characteristics of that animal are and while you're doing that tell us your name , what your role is and perhaps how your animal relates to the role that you're taking in this project . industrial designer: marketing: Why are you looking at me ? user interface: marketing: project manager: Would you like to go first ? marketing: Do I have a choice ? industrial designer: marketing: Okay . marketing: So , my name's Cat and I'm really not very good at this whole drawing malarkey industrial designer: project manager: marketing: so user interface: marketing: Okay . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Yeah , I don't think it's furry enough , so we'll make it a fluffy rabbit . industrial designer: marketing: okay and I like it because it's small and it's fluffy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: And one day you'll be able to getical genetically modify them and they will come in pink . project manager: Excellent , and what's your what's your role within the team ? marketing: I am the I need my notebook , ooh industrial designer: marketing: top banana . Okay , cool , I am the Marketing Expert so like I'm gonna be doing the apparently according to the little guy in the computer that knows everything the user g requirements specification of the functional design , trend watching in the conceptual design and product evad-valuation in the detailed design project manager: industrial designer: project manager: And more about yourself , you're from ? marketing: I'm from Leicester , project manager: what else do you want to know ? industrial designer: marketing: I like sports yeah , aerobics , kickboxing , spinning project manager: marketing: and project manager: But not with rabbits . project manager: There's a an if you have not enough room there's an eraser there and you can rub it off . so I'm the Interface Designer in this project and my favourite animal , I m I'm not so sure because I'm not so so very familiar with all kinds of animals , but I do like dogs . project manager: user interface: Oh , sorry , maybe I should have shouldn't have said it beforehand but industrial designer: . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well , there are different kinds of dogs , but okay . user interface: yeah and I do like dogs because they are good friends to people and they are loyal . project manager: user interface: yeah maybe maybe the fact that they protect their home as well , yeah . project manager: user interface: I hope to be loyal to the project industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and not to n not to let people doing similar projects know the details of our project or something , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: And where where are you from ? user interface: I'm from Estonia project manager: Estonia . so is there anything else you'd like to know ? Oh , right , my roles , industrial designer: . user interface: so in the different stages of the design , so at first I will be responsible for for yeah , designing the technical functions of the of the remote control then in the in the conceptual design stage I need to come up with interface concept and then in the last stage I will be responsible for the int infa for the user interface design . Okay I'll do some I'll rub the features project manager: industrial designer: and let the drawing stay . user interface: industrial designer: this is going to be marketing: They're not just like a big round body and then some really skinny legs industrial designer: Yeah , that'll do . industrial designer: Big , round body , really skinny legs marketing: project manager: industrial designer: and they've got a long tail marketing: industrial designer: and a long face . industrial designer: So this is what I like about cows marketing: Horns , project manager: user interface: industrial designer: that they just keeps sitting there eating grass , marketing: draw some horns . industrial designer: they do not disturb anybody marketing: project manager: industrial designer: they're kind of Buddhist in a way . my my role in the project is the industrial designer , so I'm supposed to design all the details of of the product ho how it works and whatever it'll take during the functional role , what are the various functions that have to be performed by it during the conceptual design , what are the various components of it and finally , I'm not too sure what was the last part . the detailed design , I I guess it will again be the identification of the components and how they integrate with each other . I'm doing my P_H_D_ in Psycholinguistics , I sit at the Department of Psychology . industrial designer: That doesn't look like a cow , does it ? project manager: Okay , here's a space . project manager: I like dogs too , but I can't do that already because I can't draw a dog as well as you can . marketing: Is there a difference ? user interface: Is a ar are they also like lizards or are they project manager: They're Yeah , they're l it's a kind of lizard . user interface: yeah , they are project manager: And I I like geckos user interface: project manager: and , and where I was living in Cambodia they used to live in my house user interface: Ah . marketing: project manager: and they were on the ceiling and they would make little gecko noises in the evening . industrial designer: user interface: I hope you don't like snakes , do you ? project manager: I don't like snakes . project manager: I'm from Melbourne and I'm your Project Manager for today industrial designer: . project manager: and my role is basically to keep things going and make sure that you all work together in a productive way , so that by the end of the day we come up with a great product . So , I've just thought marketing: If you right click on it you can project manager: yeah I've just thought about this that we could even put it much more professionally as marketing: industrial designer: We've got we're planning to sell these remote controls for let's make that go away , that means we've got five minutes . so to do that our finance people estimate that we need production costs of maximum twelve and a half Euro so that we can reach that profit target . Does anyone have any first ideas to bounce around about what we're thinking of this remote control ? user interface: Yep . I'm just wondering whether whether there is like any special feature that we want to have w want this remote control have as opposed to the already existing ones . I think that's probably something that w it's best if we take away with us , industrial designer: project manager: but if we all have a think , when we go away from the meeting , what specific things could be included in this remote control that that are out of the ordinary . industrial designer: I think i in the beginning one thing was that was mentioned was that it should be trendy , user friendly and original so I think your point is relevant as far as the originality is concerned , that we should provide some features that are quite unique to this . marketing: and the other things that they've made and I like put down some like inspirational words like that I got from looking at the pictures . marketing: and so it's something that is sleek and stylish but it's still functional , you know ? project manager: marketing: So I'm kind of thinking , you know like those phones that they have , the new generation ones , where they don't actually have any buttons on them and stuff like that . marketing: You know , so something heading towards that , so it's not overly I don't know what h most of the buttons do on my remote controls , so I figure how many do you need , you know ? project manager: project manager: So perhaps some sort of menu-based thing , or industrial designer: marketing: Something that's a little less crowded than this , like you know , theoretically you can do all kinds of things with your T_V_ , right ? project manager: marketing: They turn it on , they watch certain specified channels , you know , and then they turn it off again . industrial designer: There is a lot of functionality in there that is not used ninety percent of the time , marketing: Sometimes they play a movie . marketing: there's no need to have buttons on it to do that , project manager: So , no . project manager: It could be one button for a menu or something , if you really need to go and do that . marketing: So , if you're the kind of sad case that knows how your remote control works , then you know that's fine project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: and you can do it on the screen rather than everybody else having to have those buttons , which just confuse them . marketing: 'Cause like if you look at the train , it's just very like , there's no extra bits on it , the train on the website and I dunno if you can put it up on the thing project manager: Oh I haven't had a look yet , yep . marketing: but it is just like a long like thing used for mu moving people , but it looks really pretty too . we can aim for we can think about all these little things , but we can aim for something wi that gives a high battery life , although I don't think that it's a huge problem for remote controls anyway , battery life , project manager: user interface: Yeah but e even though it has to be re original we shouldn't go like too far away from from the usual ones , because otherwise the new users will just have a lot of problems industrial designer: Yeah . So , i it should kind of fit in as well , and the stereotype of a project manager: It's like those fancy websites that you can't access industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because you have no idea how to get in , but the designers thought they were great . Okay , so we need to wrap it up now , so that we can go away and get on with some of this . we've got another meeting in thirty minutes , so you're you'll be getting specific instructions once you go back to your workspace , but im basically you're looking at the working design , industrial designer: Alright . project manager: you're looking at the technical functions design , and for you it's the user requirements specification , marketing: -

The Project Manager proposed pricing each remote control at 25 Euros, with a production cost of 12.5 Euros, aiming for a profit of 50 million Euros in the first year. The target market would be international and encompass all age groups. The product itself was shaped like a banana, with a standard battery and a wheel. The materials used for manufacturing included a yellow banana-shaped case and rubber, totaling a cost of 10.7 Euros, which fit within their budget. With a price gap of 12.5 Euros, they set the price at 25 Euros, which was deemed reasonable and attractive. Marketing set a sales figure of four million to reach the profit goal. Additionally, the idea of providing different designs for different target audiences in different countries was suggested to make the remote control more popular and appealing.

Summarize the discussion on price issues, target groups, target price, target cost, target profit, cost, and marketing target of the remote control product, considering its design, functionality, and conceptual design.

then each of you will have your presentation , and then we will need to make a decision on the concept for the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: we decided that , or we know that we need to use company colours , company logo . industrial designer: project manager: and that they often lose the it's easy to lose a remote . I think we decided that the expense was not necessarily worth it , and that it was probably a gimmick , that would increasingly wear on the consumers' nerves . and some personal preferences that were found in that would be that it should be a user-oriented remote , something simple . the user interface then would connect to a chip , which would work with the infrared controls to send the signal to the T_V_ . I believe then we came up with a couple of ideas for what we think the design of the remote will be . I was given a brief executive summary , and then an update on some recent fashion trends that we might like to look at . okay the most important finding was that the fancy look-and-feel seems to be twice as important to the users as the current functional look-and-feel design , which I think we've kind of already discussed before . And again these are all things we've kind of already come up with on our own , but this just backs it up . As far as fashion update , we've learned that fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . industrial designer: marketing: So that might be a bit of a challenge to incorporate this into our remote , but we can try . and also , as opposed to last year , this year the material is expected to be spongy in feel . Okay so from that , as we've already said , we need to focus on a fancy look-and-feel . I think we've already discovered that it's kind of hard to go away from the traditional rectangular design . But I think that , even if it's very subtle , we need to kind of trick our consumers , so they at least get the idea that they're getting something that's new and modern and sleek and Whether it's through the shape or the colours or all of that . And Manuel had suggested the energy source and the user interface , discussing some of those , that we could change a little bit . We need to keep it simple , have limited buttons , which I think the two piece idea might be really beneficial for . I don't know , I guess the two options are if we had our remote in the shape of a fruit or vegetable . But my question is , the stereotypically speaking , you kind of picture males with their remote controls , and I'm not sure how they'd feel about having fruity logos on the outside . project manager: marketing: So maybe we could have something that's somewhat removable , or I don't know , different options for female , male target groups . C and look at different types of material that might please our users who want spongy-feeling remote controls . Possibly like a cover like they have for mobile phones ? marketing: That's what I was thinking yeah . project manager: You have one with a flag , and one with a banana and one that's a spongy user interface: marketing: Yeah . yeah I talking about the interface concept and how the customer relates to , will use the , consumer will use the actual device . I was sent some information from the company saying that they , the technology department have devised a new speech recognition technology , where you can program questions into such devices . They gave an example of a coffee machine where you program a question , you program the answer , and the machine responds accordingly . and then it ju that's just to point out the sort of inconsistent u sort of use of interface in remotes . You can't really see that picture well , but there's various different remotes , once again with lots of different buttons on , making it more complicated . industrial designer: user interface: So , then I had a look at new products that are on the market . this is the voice , there is a voice recognition remote control , which can control mus multiple devices . Store up to eighty speech samples , controls four devices , T_V_ , cable , satellite , V_C_R_ , D_V_D_ and audio . the one on the left is very similar to what we drew up on the board in the previous meeting , where there has scroll down functions on the side . And then on the right is obviously an iPod , which is you know possibly one of the simplest things to use out there , and really is , and all that is is just a a nice big scroll menu that y you sort of go through . then there's things like this , which is a a a kid's remote , where the the parents have the facility to control and program what children can watch before . So the remote control it o only allows them to access the channels that their parents want them to watch . So I don't know if there's a possibility of having one remote contr you know like we just had two components , maybe it can have more components you know , different remotes . the point made at the end there here is that you have to be sort of be need to be clear on your devices , as to what , you know , things you use . Sometimes an arrow pointing down , which may suggest volume down , could become confused just as a V_ for volume . I think , d carrying on from what I've already said , a user friendly remote with minimum buttons . Maybe we've so suggested this two-part thing , where if it was to have a speech recognition thing , you could maybe control that on the do it or program all that on the control bit . And then just have the simple sort of hand-held thing that we sort of devised earlier , as the actual remote . I don't it could be a graphical display , the actual remote contr the actual control port maybe could have like an iPod where you just sort of control through the menus . Which is just for your gr ninety year old grandma yeah ? project manager: marketing: industrial designer: That's industrial design for cranes , stuff like that . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: Just to to make it more obvious what we have to fit in there , and that we do have to fit the stuff in there . but let's just wait for this to load up and I'll show you what we're talking about here . The details of the components' design , as you can see there , what we have is the board , main board of the remote control . The underside , that's pretty cheap piece of of technology really top left side you can see the chip , which is the , what we were talking about , this was is the device to recognise the signals the input , and it passes it on to a row of further transistors and stuff like that on the right side that actually amplify the signal , which later on is being , is being transferred to a infrared lamp which then of course shines infrared light onto the television which then will recognise what signal it's getting and will do what you tell it . Its job is to wait for you to press a key , then to translate that key press into infrared light signals , that are received by the television . Transistor amplifies the signal and then sends the m sends the signal to the L_E_D_ which translates the signal into infrared light . The sensor in the T_V_ can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal reacts appropriately . the lower part of it , I don't know if you can see that properly , with the green greenish board is is what we what we saw in the first the first slide just flipped over . what you do is you have , don't have cables , but you have the connections actually in these in these lines on the on the board . which sends it over to the transistors and all that stuff that marketing: industrial designer: amplify the signal and all that is being sent to the infrared lamp up there . we are also restricted in the use of our outer shell , or in the material that we could use for our outer shell . I've gotten some information that we could use for the case material plastic , rubber , as well . project manager: What's the approximate per hundred thousand for the titanium ? user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: Oh fya marketing: industrial designer: I don't have an information on that . However our company obviously can provide us with with the titanium , so I assume , I'm , I was given an okay to use it . project manager: industrial designer: It certainly is an expensive material , project manager: industrial designer: I'm aware of that , but I was given an okay . what we could use is , or what I was offered , or what we could use , is a basic bateer battery . Where you just move them m move the the actual device and this pr provides it with with some energy . marketing: industrial designer: You don't wanna wind up your remote control before you can use it right ? solar cell is interesting . project manager: Works well in Arizona but in Edinburgh not so industrial designer: Always the you But marketing: Y probably not yeah . marketing: industrial designer: So I'd say what we're stuck with really is the basic battery . however when it comes to the scroll wheel of the iPod I've one big objection and that is that we have to fit an L_C_D_ into the remote control as well . If you have a squishy kind of remote control , then an L_C_D_ screen may be affected by the movement . If we have a more sophistic sophisticated scroll wheel rather than this very basic set-up that we that I've just presented , the chip has to be more s more sophisticated and thus more expensive as well . I don't have any details to , when it comes to the cost but it will be a significant difference . I'd rather say drop the titanium and therefore let's have a more sophisticated chip , but that's not up to me to decide really . it limits our choice and squishy is hip , so I'd say rather not go for for that . But obviously that's not our problem since we have decided or against solar cells , I assume right ? Or is anybody still marketing: . user interface: Would the sort of spongy and the the plasticky thing y you can get those mobile phones that initially have a it is plastic but then they have sort of a a s a cover on it which is just sort of soft and stuff . user interface: So I don't know if that would still be possible to have you know in plastic . marketing: The we can have the fruits and vegetables on the spongy parts , so they can remove it . user interface: So you as the the possibility of having a a graphical display on it , like a screen ? Like the iPod ? industrial designer: You can have an L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: Alright ? So plastic yes , titanium yes , but this will of course influence the form . So the way to go is if you want a scroll wheel you either make it flat and angular , add an L_C_D_ screen , and then you can basically choose either plastic or titanium . Add an L_C_D_ screen , add a scroll wheel , that'll be fine . project manager: So the ru wait the rubbery we can shape it however we want ? Or the rubbery we cannot ? industrial designer: With rubber we could sh pretty much shape it the way we wanted it , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: but we cannot add scroll wheels , and we cannot add an L_C_D_ screen . user interface: Could we not you know have a shape with a scroll and the screen , and then j just sort of that initial shape we had , just which is sort of banana-esque . user interface: And you know you just p stick on just sort of rubber things that that sort of grip the thumb bit . project manager: Is that an option , a plastic shell with a rubbery coating on at certain spots ? industrial designer: S Certainly can be done yes . So The fruit design How about affecting the surface of the actual remote control ? Say we don't make it p a particular fruit shape obviously , marketing: . user interface: I don't suppose we have to stick to co industrial designer: Well we we're supposed to stick to the company colours though , user interface: Stick to the colours yeah . industrial designer: Grapefruit marketing: industrial designer: is what we'd go for , when it comes to the outer appearance perhaps . project manager: I would say , if I were to make a decision , I would probably put the fruit aspect at the lower lower end of the spectrum of of importance . project manager: marketing: I think having a shape could be a little ridiculous , project manager: marketing: like user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: So project manager: Well perhaps the implied shape will be enough to lure that fruit-minded remote buyer . project manager: It's sort of industrial designer: Well so why not add a couple of grey stripes and make it look like a banana ? project manager: couple of couple of grey stripes . project manager: We could put the grey stripes on the bottom so that that person could turn it over . project manager: Rather than rather th industrial designer: marketing: user interface: It could and then you could actually h put the banana-shaped thing on the fruit bowl , on the coffee table , marketing: Oh . project manager: Maybe the holder , if we were to have a holder , it could be shaped like a fruit . project manager: Do you have more to your presentation ? industrial designer: That's pretty much it . I informed you about the materials , what the interior has to look like , and what the limitations to certain materials are on project manager: Oh . marketing: So is the two piece idea out ? Or have we not decided ? user interface: Well we sort of rid of that because gonna use a battery . industrial designer: Well we can still design a two-piece remote without having a base , having one of them be a base station , user interface: Yeah . marketing: industrial designer: but just have it be an optional either big remote with lots of functions , or you take out the smaller piece . industrial designer: So which then , as I understand it , would probably limit the , limit again the the the use of certain materials , because they would be too expensive . Say like have a scroll wheel and on both of them , or have an L_C_D_ screen and so on so on . for our components concept we need to come up with the energy source , the chip-on-print , and the case . and then for the user interface concept we need to decide what the tape , what , what the type is . Energy source I think we've , I think we've decided batteries , although not exciting , are probably our best bet . industrial designer: Okay when it comes to the chip-on-print , as I said , the the more advanced features you want , the fancier the chip has to be and the more expensive . if you want just a normal button version , the chip-on-print is gonna be marketing: . If we go with the plasticky case , or the the plastic case , then the chip-on-print is still kind of , we could have either or . user interface: just maybe marketing: finger grips just on top of the plastic ? user interface: yeah . So we would , we would have the L_C_D_ screen ? industrial designer: as long as the pla the rubber is nowhere near the controls , yes . So I guess the case would be plastic , with Perhaps that's not even enough rubber to qualify as being part of it . marketing: So then for the scroll , are we going for the iPod type ? user interface: Yeah I think so . project manager: Which will require a more expensive chip-on-print right ? industrial designer: Yes . So I guess that , is that , is that about it ? So we have a good idea of what we're gonna need to to do on this ? industrial designer: Right . And the two of you get to play with the modelling components and user interface: marketing: project manager: maybe and and get us a prototype . user interface: project manager: So that basically just be working on the prototype , we'll accomplish your other two actions <doc-sep>marketing: What's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: The I will present here agenda with with with with slides to you . I've also made notes of the previous meeting and I was about to send them you but then I had to go to this meeting so you will get them too marketing: project manager: Then I hope you all have worked out some some some some presentations about about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . then I will bring in some some some new requirements I I got from the account manager , I try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . project manager: and Well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: . industrial designer: You mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: Yes well yes w who are we going to to well to sell this , marketing: . So And then we will close this meeting user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we'll we'll have a lunch . Maybe why Anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: No , I don't . project manager: you want a table to to marketing: I c I can talk about it but I have no slides or anything . project manager: Yes yes maybe maybe you can can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary . Well I've just been presented with some research we've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . It's probably can't email this to you , I've just got a web page with some data on it . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they're watching television . Fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: Do you Do you have this information on the web page you said ? marketing: I have an a web page yes . So basically there's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times and then there's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . Teletext is used fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . marketing: An interesting thing that this report has brought up is that fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . industrial designer: marketing: Thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . industrial designer: It's it's easy to learn or how do you say it's marketing: Thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . industrial designer: Not enough marketing: I don't know how we'd go about combating that . What do you mean there ? marketing: For R_S_I_ ? Respet Repetitive strain injury . project manager: But it's it's the opinion of the of the users huh ? marketing: Yeah . marketing: and then it's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: Maybe y y you cannot put this webpage online on the marketing: I should be able to actually , if I email it to you now . user interface: You can disconnect it there project manager: You can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: Oh no , yeah . industrial designer: Ah it's it okay it's a webpage on the C_ it's a file marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: So these are important numbers that Matthew and I need to take into account for our functional user interface: Oh yeah . It's probably easier if you put it on yours and then I'll just email it to you . industrial designer: Yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the both yeah user interface and functional design . marketing: One thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: Because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint our design based on what is more important . industrial designer: Speech recognition in marketing: And who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . industrial designer: So that we don't Do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: Well potentially yeah , project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . project manager: Well it would it would be a solution for when your remote control is lost , marketing: project manager: when it has speech recognition then i then it doesn't matter where it is , my well it's we should be in range , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: I'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve Euro fi and fifty cents . industrial designer: And we don't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: Oh . Well , it depends you know like there is it's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: . project manager: Yes , user interface: It's it's going to be li project manager: that that that that's . user interface: it's not going to be s so easy but u usually it's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: Do you have some more important facts user interface: but it's but I don't know with twenty fi marketing: project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: Okay . So marketing: Well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: This is now talking about who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , . Ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . marketing: Yeah , it really depends where we're gonna be targeting this product , user interface: project manager: . industrial designer: I thi You us marketing: It'll be in a different window , yep . marketing: Another thing it's talking about there is the L_C_D_ screen but there's no figures apparently on that . I okay project manager: Oh , industrial designer: I stay project manager: this is user interface: Now you can move I think yeah . user interface: It's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: Sorry ? Oh . I'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you don't have a very technical background what is it because I think in the product it is important . industrial designer: So basically the basic function of a remote control is to send messages to another system that is fixed . industrial designer: And so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually through a infrared bit marketing: So my method for designing the yeah the work design yeah first the the main point is that I would wish to to make a really functional product . I would prefer to have very functional capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and doesn't work . industrial designer: So for that yeah as it's important to take into account the user requirements from the Marketing Expert Anna marketing: industrial designer: and w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions for this remote control and I show you the the working design . we want an on off button , it can be it's simple but it's it's important , and also the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: . So the components I quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that's my method is will be to well my aim would be to design the and choose the chips and the infrared components to build the remote control marketing: This is very quick design , you stop me or interrupt me if you don't agree on it on that . industrial designer: And so what I have found and after a lot of work actually I I draw this I draw for you this schema marketing: Well . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: You drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . industrial designer: And that's it so I won't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . So project manager: are they cheap , or are they reliable ? What were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with reliability and i if it's expensive , project manager: . industrial designer: but this one was not this one also really reliable so yeah that's it for the working design , I hope you get clearer view on what what a remote control is in terms of technical components project manager: Yes . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: So user interface: But is it can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: No no no no we we will This is a preference but we can always change project manager: What I w what I was thinking about the the the schema about the sender and the receiver , can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not able to change it . We will use infrared protocol using yeah infrared and and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: industrial designer: and but we what we can do is adapting the the chips inside to the best chips and infrared bubbles . Of course yeah user interface: But you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote which could switch off any other T_V_s , so basically through all the things . user interface: So maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: Of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: That's handy . project manager: Yeah yes marketing: So if the b T_V_ in the next apartment's really loud , you can just turn it off . industrial designer: in the user interface: Yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone's T_V_ and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: You don't have to be near the T_V_ at all . project manager: I I feel I I I think M Mael will will consider this th these things . So I'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it's about what is the user going to do , I think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: user interface: so what's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . So well the approach is that basically the idea is to send a message to the T_V_ set , as Mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the T_V_ and usually we it is easier to have keys or buttons with which people can press and then changing a button will basically change the message which is being sent to the T_V_ and industrial designer: So p as Anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you don't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is s a question which will we have to see later . user interface: But in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the T_V_ . user interface: And so generally I don't have some figures sorry but so there are two kinds of remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard T_V_ remote where you have just a on , off button and play , volume change and keys for the number and more than one digit option . And if you see for example righ right now even the one on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but . Then there is this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it doesn't have teletext option , it can without any , it's a very simple thing , which which you can vouch . And then you have what's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop and then you play the movie or or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: And then well personal preferences I would basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the the f a T_V_ and the remote video remote control because some of the keys in the video's remote control and the T_V_ they could be integrated together so that we could aim for the like in the f coming future that type of applications with marketing: Okay . How would that work ? So you've got say maybe a V_C_R_ and a T_V_ which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home I've got a V_C_R_ remote which then changes the channel on the V_C_R_ and doesn't do anything on the T_V_ , user interface: Yeah . marketing: so is it gonna be like a switch on the remote that says t use the T_V_ or use the V_C_R_ ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: actually you could you could think of having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: user interface: but yo you you you still can't in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the V_C_R_ option marketing: user interface: and you could play it or You can also think about having like I in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate sitting setup box marketing: user interface: and you have something like you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: user interface: and you can just you know when you come back you could just switch on that thing and watch a program . user interface: In that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . user interface: It's the next generation thing , project manager: yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . project manager: but I think it's i i it's already there , user interface: It's goi project manager: the hard disk recorders I I've seen them in the shop . user interface: it's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both video as well as in the standard T_V_ thing . That's , user interface: No no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at giving a scenario , I have a T_V_ and tomorrow I am going to have set up box marketing: . user interface: which is going to sit there and it's going to do that job for me . Because y project manager: W w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . project manager: Mean , you can go pretty far I f I think with with with functions and possible future p prospects marketing: . So we can always discuss about it for example the presently the video market actually this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it's presently booming up actually industrial designer: user interface: so it i like people are providing like things like movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your T_V_ . industrial designer: Or even you don't need to download it , it's streamed online yeah . user interface: Yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time I want to watch the movie marketing: . project manager: I have received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and I would like to share them with you . project manager: first thing is teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: Do we include it , and do we give it a prominent prominent place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . project manager: as a in any case it's it's not used , well very much , but it's it is still used . project manager: further yes we must think , do we stay to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you can't go back huh , or do we go further as Matthew indicated by supporting recording devices ? user interface: marketing: So D_V_D_s and V_C_R_s ? project manager: indeed indeed . , furthermore , w we need really need to interest y younger customers and then with younger customers people below the age of forty , marketing: project manager: So industrial designer: So project manager: that's to that's there's a market but they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . project manager: therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that's w we should make our our our R_C_ as trendy as possible but it should also be have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . user interface: Yeah it's well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and basically so the space covered so that you don't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: But I think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we're going after a younger market , user interface: Yeah so . Yes yes marketing: that's the the the the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: Because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that's , project manager: Yes it's recognisable industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: yeah , there's lot there's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . So , for example you have presently keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and four five six like that and you can have keys like this in form like keys like that project manager: Mael can you hand me over this ? industrial designer: Yes . How much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: well marketing: 'Cause we haven't talked about demographic at all project manager: I think fi five min user interface: Forty minutes ? marketing: and it's a very important issue . too sorry , so we basically don't change the original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: user interface: they don't look so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , four , sorry four here five and six , marketing: . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: Okay . industrial designer: marketing: basically we're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: Yeah . marketing: wouldn't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: Of course they have already one . marketing: 'cause it's only a low market , it's a cheap-end remote control , we can't beat modern functionality , we might we'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that's not a big seller , if they're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . I well I think many people said in your in in your research the appearance of the R_C_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: . I've got friends who've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they're using five different remotes for their all their things . marketing: In that case they wouldn't buy our product , because it doesn't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: So your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: Well , we can't , with the price range . project manager: What do What do you think about What componen industrial designer: Yeah we have yeah twelve point five Euros per per R_ s R_C_ marketing: . industrial designer: and I think with this now you know that chips are very cheaps marketing: If we're getting into universal remote territory , we're getting to L_C_D_ screens and things like that industrial designer: that's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . industrial designer: Ye project manager: Is the L_C_D_ screen marketing: For universal remotes industrial designer: I don't think L_C_D_ is not necessary well , th for long term . project manager: I think thi this could be this could be a market because universal remote controls tend to be quite expensive . marketing: And quite complicated to use , project manager: S so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal R_C_ industrial designer: Universal . project manager: marketing: But if we're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own T_V_s to use a remote control on . project manager: yes but w we're targeting I think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . Who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . Are we gonna be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? I don't know . project manager: I think when we think it over I thi I think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . project manager: So d Do you agree ? user interface: Well Well I it's fine with me like the price as long as it is not too expensive . industrial designer: Yeah user interface: and it d Our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gonna b we are gonna sell four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers the price of a chip is price of a chip is very cheap . industrial designer: So I'm okay for designing a ne less yeah a a kind of universal R_C_ yeah . And basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: Yeah that's needed , yeah . So I guess what I'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , V_C_R_ and T_V_ . marketing: And just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . user interface: Yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . project manager: So given we are going for this universal type m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific user interface content industrial designer: Yes . project manager: and maybe you can look on on what trends are in this in this type of market . user interface: and we'll I'm sure we'll up something good marketing: project manager: W yes , user interface: for the project manager: we we can have lunch now . project manager: So Then th th the next meeting will user interface: Yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have we have thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting <doc-sep>project manager: before I start with the with the meeting I have a few things to tell you about the the setting we're in , because we're being watched by Big Brother . And as I can see you you have placed your laptops exactly on the place where it must be . And that has to do with the camera settings , so we don't have our laptops in front of the cameras . So what are we going to to do ? What are we going to make f kind of functions in the remote ? And why are we going to do it ? Then the conceptual design . because at the detailed design , how , part two , we go to dig in really about how the the te the technical of If it's it's possible technical-wise . marketing: project manager: each stage is is broken up in two two stages , individual work and a meeting . This one is for the presentations , the PowerPoint presentations or the Word presentation of whatever you you had . This is very straightforward , with the save , the print , the undo , the blank , the select , the pen . Well , I don't gonna explain it all , marketing: project manager: because I think you know how it works . Every every one of us must draw our favourite animal , industrial designer: project manager: and tell tell us why we had chosen that animal . project manager: Yes ? marketing: this exercise , did the company board tell you to do it , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or did you just make it up yourself ? project manager: No no no . So getting used to each other , we can have a little fun then , before we dig in really to the hard stuff . marketing: project manager: My favourite animal huh ? industrial designer: marketing: It's like Pictionary ? industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , you can guess what it is . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: It's a pork ? project manager: No , it's not an orc . user interface: project manager: You don't see it at the ears ? marketing: yeah , I have it at home . industrial designer: marketing: Miniature size ? project manager: So we found it kinda cool to name it after a lion . project manager: Yeah ? industrial designer: project manager: So choose a colour , choose a pen width and draw a user interface: You don't have to change the colour and the pen width during the drawing . industrial designer: By the way , why was your cat red ? project manager: Because my cat is red at home . project manager: user interface: Huh ? industrial designer: user interface: Oh , it is a turtle . project manager: You watched it a lot ? user interface: industrial designer: marketing: ? project manager: You watched it a lot ? user interface: It's inside its shell . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: How did it work ? project manager: Format ? And then you have the the current colour , user interface: Performance ? project manager: you can change . marketing: project manager: Tim had Tim , what kinda line width did you have ? user interface: marketing: the big lines were like nine . Why a dog ? You have a dog at home ? user interface: Well , we had a dog , a few years ago . project manager: Had a dog ? marketing: it's p project manager: Yeah ? user interface: And and it , yeah , when it died we didn't get a new one or something . user interface: But marketing: It's pretty good industrial designer: project manager: You have an artistic inner middle . marketing: Wha user interface: Well , project manager: Okay , user interface: it's okay . user interface: industrial designer: I figure I should do something like that , project manager: industrial designer: but I'm gonna do something much more difficult . user interface: Well with the interface , it might be easier to ha to draw here and display there . But at the other hand , a pen like that is easy to hold in your hand , and project manager: No . user interface: Than on the , with project manager: user interface: Yeah , I m like like on here , drawing drawing . user interface: marketing: Project Manager ? project manager: Yeah ? industrial designer: Where does the pen go ? Just marketing: Have you been counting the time ? project manager: Yeah , a little . project manager: the selling price for the remote will be twenty five Euro , and the production cost may not be more than twenty and a half Euro . So from my point of view , I don't think it's gonna be very very high tech , high definition , ultra modern kinda remote , for twelve fift twelve and a half Euro . We have to sell a lot of user interface: Yeah , how much is it ? marketing: Like how much ? user interface: Hundred million remotes or something ? project manager: I think w when the selling price is twenty five , you got two million , two million remotes . Well what what's the most important thing at a remote control ? user interface: well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels . So not a not a remote control who which can can be used for television and a D_V_D_ and radio and Or just only marketing: Yeah . Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ? project manager: If you have them on I can marketing: Yeah . Between the the the , yeah , the the user interface: marketing: Screen ? project manager: Yeah , be The screens . user interface: Is it possible to open pen drawings in this on this screen ? project manager: No no no . Only All the drawings go there , at the left user interface: but which The ones we made on the project manager: Oh , that pen drawings . no , I think when it is in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder , you can show it there . I think , it doesn't have to matter which brand your T_V_ or other thing is . marketing: And by making it multi-purpose , it has a new feature , adds a new feature to the market , and distinguish from from current products . I rather find it very annoying , like when someone is standing in front of the T_V_ then you can't switch it . It's nice as an added feature feature , that , when you're on a certain channel , you can see on the L_C_D_ screen what programmes are coming up or project manager: Okay . project manager: remote ? Yeah , it must be really innovative , technical-wise ? marketing: Yeah , it has to be Yeah , our company is very good in making new innovative things . user interface: We marketing: So i i i i project manager: So we must focus on things who are really really add something to to marketing: To the current market . But we have to keep an eye that it's at the beginning of such a project , it's it's it's very cool to talk about , well , this would be cool , that would be cool . project manager: but we must not lose sight of the the user friendly marketing: Yeah , of course . So you will have individual actions where I presume will be some feedback , via the m the mail . one thing , project manager: Yeah ? user interface: we must first agree on what we're going to m going to make . Do we Are we going to use it it for multiple systems ? Or We should have some agreement on that before we project manager: Okay . wha marketing: I I don't think we have to be , we have to agree on that . But maybe , because you are working on the user requirements , you are working on the technical functions , we must have a little or kinda How do you call it ? user interface: Consensus on the , what we're gonna do . So you don't come up with the user requirements who don't fit the the the the technical functions at all . project manager: W He says user interface: if the technical functions have to be designed , I I've gotta know for what kind of machines they will be . user interface: Or do we use it a text screen ? Or will it be with with bluetooth or project manager: Well , th that's that's really a step further . But if you say is it one way or multi-purpose , that's a user interface: Okay . marketing: Like we all have a list of things that has to b that have to be in it , or how it has to be like . project manager: each individually i individually must think on what's at his point of view is the most important <doc-sep>So basically we've got three things , and we've got forty minutes in which to for this meeting to to discuss the various options . industrial designer: We have a I guess we have a presentation each , 'cause I've got one . so do we want to do the presentation first , or do we want to W I I got or or three things basically , relating to the remote being only for T_V_ . project manager: So in fact it actually f we won't be forestalled in a sense . user interface: What is it ? industrial designer: I'm not quite sure how it user interface: I think you've got to do control F_ eight . user interface: Ah there , marketing: Oh hang on , user interface: it's doing something . I've just got three sections , first is the research I made on the on the remote control itself . And then also the methods in which these components interact together for the remote to actually do what you want it to do and how it connects with the television . industrial designer: We then have the user interface , which is basically the like the the buttons on the actual remote . And then the sender , which is usually , I've found , an infra-red device which sends a signal to the actual television . and the last part is receiver which is important in the system but is not actually part of the remote itself , because that's obviously found in the television . I'm gonna have to actually draw on the board because it was a little tricky on PowerPoint to get this working , so . S do we have a cloth to wipe this down with , or ? Oh I'll j project manager: there's the rubber on the right , I think . Okay , so we start off with a battery suppl no , a power supply which we'd probably get it's probably gonna be the battery . we then have a particular button , which may be that's obviously there's lots and lots of different buttons . that sends after you press that that sends the message to the chip , which then sends It sort of interprets which button you've pressed and then sends the appropriate message to the sender . That's the remote in itself , that's the components of the remote and how they work together . this is the chip itself , which then , and that's the that's the infra-red sender . going on to personal preferences , I've said that battery seems the best option for the actual remote , just because of the size . You don't want a a cable attached to the remote otherwise it's not it's not really a remote . and then the sender , marketing: industrial designer: and infra-red has been used quite successfully . so the m basic method of this is to send a signal from the remote to the television set , so that a desired function is performed . an example of the function could be to change the volume up or down , so obviously you need two different buttons for that . by the look of it they both have kind of play and fast forward , rewind functions , so I think they incorporate a kind of video function which we won't have to worry about . So , it's got nice big buttons , it's got a very limited number of buttons . I like the use of the kind of symbols like the triangles and the squares and the arrows as well as the words on the kind of play functions and all that . user interface: Will you be presenting that in a bit ? project manager: But I got I got an email that basically said to make sure that whatever device we come up with at the end of the day had to incorporate the corporate colour and slogan . So I'm guessing that I notice on the bottom there it's got what's that ? A_P_O_G_E_E_ that might be the corporate colour scheme , although the only the only colour I can see in that is the red . industrial designer: Would you be able to get rid of the the extra buttons here , the the sort of circular section , because that seems to be for a video as well . So we could dispense with that little bit as well and just get it down to just the numbers and the volume . Possibly ? user interface: What do you mean by the circular section ? industrial designer: J yeah yeah yeah j yeah user interface: Like all of that bottom bit ? project manager: industrial designer: just this little bit is that I think that's still a video remote part , user interface: Yeah . project manager: Well b w user interface: how often do you use seven , eight and nine ? I think just one to six and then channel up and down should be enough . project manager: Well th the on the user interface: Like how often do you hit nine ? project manager: Well for for general television purposes obviously you have channels one to five at this point in time , marketing: But but industrial designer: It's just people are used to seeing that , so if we didn't have them then they might think it's project manager: But , well possibly but the the other thing is that with the current expansion of channels in the process of taking place , certainly the button up and down , but how many channels do we have to actual television channels do we have to prepare for ? I would have thought that it's forever expanding and at the moment we've got although you've onl you've got the five standard , you've got the B_B_C_ have come up with a further six industrial designer: project manager: and there's I don't know exactly how many channels there are on when you take into account Sky and various other various others . project manager: So I would've thought that we wouldn't , you know , rather user interface: . project manager: Okay , if the time of flicking from one to other , but presumably it'll take a second user interface: project manager: 'cause you have to be able to stop it . Maybe you could have a fast forward on the on the channels that w and then you could dispense with more otherwise . industrial designer: user interface: some remotes have kind of favourite options where if you always flick from channel one to channel six , if that's a favourite you just like by-pass two to five . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , I s I suppose in a sense you could have if you've got a hundred channels then if you had sort of an easy way of getting rather than having to go one to a hundred , you could go one to one to ten , ten to twenty industrial designer: user interface: . project manager: and then have a second button to get you to the actual channel you want marketing: user interface: But I think a lot of like Cable and Sky and stuff , that would be tuned to one channel , and then you'd have another remote for all of those channels . industrial designer: I suppose with nine you've got the the like the last one which makes the tenth means you it's like multiples you can put them together so you can make any number . industrial designer: So with that we'd kind of by-pass any problems with project manager: Yeah Well that's true , yeah , industrial designer: Yeah . I think that's just for a video , so we wouldn't need any of that at all . industrial designer: So we could get it down to what ? project manager: If it's just for T_V_ , which is what it is at the moment . industrial designer: So we get to How many buttons have we got ? We've just got ten , eleven twelve th We got fourteen that we need . Well we've we've got that it's remote for T_V_ only otherwise project would become too complex with which would endanger the time to market was one of the considerations . project manager: I'm I don't know d did you have that information behind the marketing , marketing: project manager: or was I meant to give you that information ? marketing: I'm not sure . project manager: Right , okay , so basically time to market seems to be important , therefore speed of delivery . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: Okay , so is everyone happy with that ? industrial designer: Ah yes yes , that seems good . industrial designer: marketing: Right , we've done some research into the functional requirements that people want out of their remote control . And first off we should state that th the remote control's for controlling the T_V_ and how do people use it ? We asked them sort of which buttons were useful for them . how d how does a remote control look and feel for them , and what improvements would would they like to remote control . And we did that by sort of giving them a questionnaire that we'd prepared and asking them to fill in the answers . And three quarters of them found that remote controls are ugly and that a sort of even higher proportion would spend more for a sort of s a fancier remote control And that of all the buttons on the remote control , the sort of setting buttons for sort of the picture picture and brightness and the audio settings , they weren't used very often at all . And young people were quite receptive to this , but as soon as we got sort of over about into a thirty five to forty age forty five age group and older , people people weren't quite so keen on speech recognition . There's a lot more th there's a lot lot more older people who didn't know whether they wanted it or not as well . we also asked what frustrated people about remote controls and the number one frustration was that the remote was lost somewhere else in the room and that they couldn't find it . And the second second biggest frustration what that if they got a new remote control , it was difficult to learn all the buttons and all the functions , and to find your way around it . Okay , so My personal preferences from the marketing is that we need to come up with some sort of sleek sort of good looking high high-tech A design which looks high-tech , basically . and that we should come up with fewer buttons than most of the controls on the market , and we should sort of concentrate on the channels and sort of power , and also volume and that sort of thing , as as Louisa said . we could maybe come up with a menu , a sort of a an L_C_D_ menu for other functions on the remote control . and maybe we could think about speech recognition as well , because sort of young people are perhaps the ones that are gonna buy buy our new product if we aim it at sort of you know sort of a high-tech design . And we could maybe think about using speech recogniti recognition as a way to find the remote control if it's lost in a room , rather than sort of having it to speech recognition to change the channels . 'Cause there's a problem with that in that the television makes noise , so it could end up talking to itself and changing its channel . project manager: What was that last wee bit there ? user interface: Do a lot of marketing: about speech recognition ? project manager: Speech recognition , user interface: marketing: Yeah . marketing: Youn young people pref Yeah , they s they said that they'd be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups , people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to , so . industrial designer: No what I maybe think is it seems the technology would be quite advanced for that and they might end up costing more than our twelve fifty budget for for the speech recognition . industrial designer: And possibly the thing about the about the remote being lost we could have You know with your mobile phone , you lose that and you can ring it . Maybe we can have some kind of sensor which is kept somewhere where you can some kind of buzzer system between the two . Yeah , we'd have t that would mean we'd have to put two products together as well , industrial designer: That is true , yes . user interface: There's key rings that you kind of whistle at or clap at , I can't remember , and then they whistle back , or something like that . So industrial designer: So I guess it'd be something we could like attach to the or like the same technology could be put inside the inside the remote . project manager: Well if you're trying to avoid having a second product 'cause obviously you could have a second product that gave you the right pitch which would set the remote off to say here I am sort of thing , you know without sound recognition . I dunno talking about vo obviously if you've got voice recognition then you can do it in that way because it'll recognise the voice and you can give it a command , a set command whatever that happened to be . project manager: But you've then got the point if if you're not going with voice recognition then industrial designer: you could have an option to turn it off . industrial designer: So that would solve the problems with the T_V_ kind of speaking to the remote and changing its own channels . marketing: project manager: So Any sugges Well , any conclusions ? marketing: would it take quite a while to sort of develop the speech recognition software in the remote control ? user interface: project manager: Well if it does then we can't . project manager: because we've got th th three primary requisites from from and email that was sent to me whereby we had The design logo was one , which we've already mentioned . We've got the remote was only for the television and not for because that would make it too complex and we have to get it market quickly . project manager: And the third thing was that teletext as far as the management is concerned , is becoming dated due to the popularity of the internet . project manager: So we're being focused effectively directly at a television and it seems to me that the management is wanting us to go down a narrow path and not opening out . project manager: So anything that is to be added , such as voice recognition et cetera has to be very simple and has to be very quick industrial designer: Has to be simple enough to project manager: because time to market is is critical . S industrial designer: I suppose if we could get something in which was quite quick and simple that would give us an advantage over the other remotes . project manager: Added extras would be nice , but the primary consideration is to get the project finished within this short time window , which effectively now is sort of four hours . d d I think I think first and foremost we've gotta get to the end and then get to the end with added extras if possible . project manager: and how we were planning to proceed so that at the next meeting each person that's got a a a task to do is clear from this meeting what that task is . And then we can report back at the next meeting and say right okay yes , we've achieved this or we haven't achieved this , this is how far we've progressed . project manager: So we have to come effectively to the decision on the remote functions so that you can decide what you're gonna be doing . And if dur between the time of this meeting finishing and the next meeting starting , if you get any additional information that only you have at that point in time you'd think would be relevant to other people in terms of their des decision making process , then we should communicate that as quickly as possible and not wait until the next meeting . project manager: so that rather than coming you know If you get the information just before the next meeting that's fine . Come along with it in the next meeting , we can discuss it then and take whatever action is appropriate . project manager: But if you get it well before the next meeting , let everybody else know 'cause that might have an impact on their on what they come up with effectively at the next meeting . project manager: Right , is there marketing: So do we need to decide on the functions now ? S project manager: I would guess so . user interface: Well I think it'd be really easy and it'd be a big advantage if we did have some sort of kind of whistle back kind of function . marketing: Yeah and Yeah and that was that was the number one sort of frustration that people said , so . user interface: marketing: I don't think there's anything else on the market that does that , so . project manager: I w well i industrial designer: Maybe we should concentrate just on the whistle back function at the moment , project manager: Something simple . if if our primary consideration is to get it there in time , time's short , industrial designer: and if something comes back project manager: you want something to meet the major concerns of the consumer so that we can have that as a selling point for the product , user interface: user interface: And that wouldn't put off the kind of older generation either , 'cause everyone can whistle or clap , and they wouldn't have to be kind of scared of this new technology . project manager: On the basis that if we've got if we're catering to the whole age range , you want something that's easy to do , industrial designer: project manager: now something that doesn't like whis marketing: No not everyone can whistle , can they , though ? project manager: Well I I I don't know . Well If you think that more people can whistle than clap then that's fine , then go for that option , user interface: project manager: but if I would have thought that more people could clap rather than whistle , marketing: No , industrial designer: I'd go more marketing: clapping , I think clapping , industrial designer: Yeah , f more for clap . user interface: 'Kay we've already decided that we don't need a teletext button , haven't we ? project manager: . Ef effectively that's what the that's what they're saying , user interface: Is that one of the project manager: that if if people are now using the internet then you don't need teletext , user interface: . industrial designer: and then the the little digit next to it which kind of enabled you to put them together . I think nowadays you can just get ones where it gives you a sort of a second or two to press another number , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Okay , ten numbers user interface: industrial designer: and then some kind of device to allow marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Did we decide anything about the other functions ? As in setting the audio and tuning it and stuff like that ? You had an had an idea about the menu ? marketing: we could possibly put an L_ a sort of a L_C_D_ menu in , but that again is probably an expense that industrial designer: But just thinking people probably you don't have you only have to probably tune in the T_V_ once , but you have to be able to tune it that once . industrial designer: So and if finally the T_V_ breaks , you get a new one , you're gonna have to be able to tune it . project manager: But the but that's relying on the television market changing to an automatic industrial designer: So that'll be in marketing: Yeah . But at the moment it's not , so it seems to me that you have to have a device that caters , 'cause otherwise it would make it your device would become inoperable , or only operable in certain circumstances industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: And it's also m it's the the product we've got is something that's at the I would have said the lower end of the s of the cost scale , so we're not really going for something that's terribly high-tech . I s I suppose if people are buying remotes , then they're probably buying it to replace another remote project manager: Possibly . marketing: we're maybe talking about replacing remotes for slightly older televisions , so we maybe need to keep the the tuning function in . industrial designer: Would you maybe have like one menu button , then you'd use the other buttons , maybe the number buttons to actually do the separate functions . user interface: and it was too dark , so I had to go through it and turn the brightness up . industrial designer: and then a menu function and maybe sort of a slightly more advanced instruction booklet to come with it , to guide Presu I think it'd be quite hard just for people to grasp just off like the menu use different buttons you maybe have to have like some better instructions of how that would actually work . marketing: I'm not sure whether the sort of having people have a booklet 'cause one the second most annoying thing that people found was having to learn the new one . marketing: So maybe next to each of the buttons , you know each of them could have a number and then also a function written next to it , so you're basically pressing industrial designer: that also goes back to the original design when we saw those two , and there was the one on the left hand side which had all like the double functions and stuff which kind of looked too busy and had too much on it , so . user interface: Well , if we're trying to keep it slee sleek and sexy as well , have you seen those remotes where kind of the bottom bit slides down , so there's kind of everything else revealed ? marketing: Okay . user interface: So you don't use it that much , you don't have to see it all the time . project manager: Right we've got five minutes before we wind up this meeting , so I've been told . And that'll be better for the older generation as well 'cause , well my dad doesn't like anything that you've got to kinda flick through a menu , project manager: Ah . industrial designer: So we're gonna have to have to work out what's gonna be on these other functions as as well . marketing: sorta project manager: That's right so we're dis So you've got which ones are gonna be on the front and which ones are gonna be on the back . industrial designer: So sh Should we decide in the next couple of minutes , and then marketing: user interface: I know it's probably like not an issue to raise here , but the whole thing about not using your standby because of the like waste of electricity . Have you seen the adverts ? Like if you boil the kettle that's full that's a waste . user interface: If you leave your telly on standby it powers Blackpool for a certain amount of time . project manager: So so are you having the stand-by on the front , then ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: We can send out a flier with the device saying that you shouldn't leave it on stand-by . industrial designer: are we gonna have the channel up and down as well as the number buttons ? marketing: 'cause yeah the market research said there is quite a lot of people do just zap around and flick , so . industrial designer: So we've got ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen there ? project manager: Channel up and down . project manager: What else have we got ? What was that , sixteen ? marketing: Numbers is ten , volume is twelve , project manager: Volume button . industrial designer: Maybe if we're gonna run out of time , one of us should come up with a list of these and then get back at the next meeting just at the start and say what they're gonna be . project manager: anything else ? You're also gonna have the channel tuner , as it were . marketing: And then maybe sort of an enter button for sort of s you know , saying that you want that particular thing tuned in . So you go up and down and then it pick it finds something and then you wanna press enter to select it , yeah . We don't really need any other audio funct functions because it's just volume up , volume down . user interface: So I think there's quite a lot of like Dolby surround studio , surround sort of things . industrial designer: Do they have their own do they have their own controls on their actual products , then , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: or do you have to do it via the remote ? user interface: I think they've got their own controls in this kind of like hidden panel . industrial designer: Yeah I suppose if we've got their if they've got their own controls then we can avoid it for ours just to keep it simple . user interface: Oh no , like there's kind of individual buttons for them , like on the T_V_ remote . industrial designer: Maybe unless something comes up then we should I think project manager: Well you might get some research

Marketing believes that the appearance of the remote should be cool and modern, and they suggest removing or combining buttons. They also propose incorporating a tracking device and speech recognition. Additionally, Marketing recommends focusing on the functions of changing channels and volumes, and using speech recognition to locate the remote if it's lost. They suggest developing a multi-purpose remote control to differentiate from other single-purpose remotes on the market. They recommend using technologies like radio waves and Bluetooth instead of infrared, as it can be easily obstructed. Another suggested feature is to inform users of upcoming programs. Marketing suggests targeting the low-end market due to budget constraints and describes the product as a cheap-end remote control. They believe that a high-end remote control with sophisticated functions would not be competitive in the low-cost market.

What were the important features of the remote control according to Marketing? What were Marketing's suggestions and recommendations regarding the functions and new useful features of the remote control? Who did Marketing believe should be the target audience for the remote control and why?

project manager: Will you guys first with your prototype before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: Yeah , there's good news ? project manager: industrial designer: Oh . user interface: one's based on the banana , one's based on the tomato project manager: Tomato ? What tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: I don't recall a tomato . Okay , so this is the non to non no buttons one , or as few buttons as possible , project manager: If you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there's some there , project manager: Okay . project manager: Okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: Yeah . can I have project manager: Well I like the feel of it , I like the feel of it . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: That's that's already got its stand that one . user interface: It does also lie flat , but that's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: Okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: yeah , that marketing: user interface: Well , we did think of that . user interface: Yeah , if it's standing up it's it's on there , but also we're gonna have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . These are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . We n were weren't sure about putting them there , because i it's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: Where you're , yeah , were you're holding it kind of user interface: Yeah . Well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: that's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . user interface: industrial designer: A a more friendly type of project manager: Okay , so so Barney the banana . It's to induce more television watching I suppose or project manager: Ah excellent , just what we need . project manager: 'Kay and user interface: So are there any improvements or issues or industrial designer: It won't stand . industrial designer: project manager: unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , it's gonna cost us fourteen point six Euros . project manager: So we have to industrial designer: What's on the on the left ? project manager: rea Sorry , I've accidentally highlighted somehow . So basically , in order to save our two Euros I was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . project manager: Yeah , it's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it wouldn't have to be curved sort of in and out . industrial designer: W why is the double curved two of them ? project manager: Oh , good point . Yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: That's sort of curve in and out . project manager: No , I think it means double curved as in user interface: Like an S_ shape . project manager: like a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . project manager: I don't think that counts as a curve , I think that's just a shape . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: Yeah , and why why I've got it two , I don't know , I can't seem to select any more however . project manager: It's meant to be one , yeah , I don't know why I put two in there , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: but Hold on till I find it , I think this shift button might be stuck again . project manager: okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: Should industrial designer: project manager: Oh that's fine . project manager: industrial designer: Maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . industrial designer: Does that work ? project manager: Yeah , I know , that just extends it as well . project manager: No , it's 'cause the the shift button's stuck , or something . industrial designer: Is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: Should we ask Meli project manager: marketing: Should we ask our technical expert Melissa ? project manager: No that's fine . Right , so that's finances and I dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? user interface: Well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: Well I suppose that's our that's that's our design that we've got . Yeah , if we're happy with the design there's no point in spending money , if we don't have to . user interface: But if there is anything you think we've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . Maybe obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: Yeah yeah . project manager: room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: W I think we were very creative . marketing: Yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . We discussed all the new ideas , but of course we couldn't reach any proper goals , we couldn't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . industrial designer: so let's talk about our bonuses and the raises we're getting for this , right . project manager: That's it , I think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . industrial designer: marketing: So project manager: Does it go back in , does it ? Reusable . industrial designer: Oh ok project manager: It didn't bother to tell me that on this marketing: S industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . user interface: It's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we've got . So of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . marketing: We will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . Then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? Means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . As we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: Sorry . marketing: So but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , yeah like keeping keeping in mind all the safety issues . project manager: The board working again , is it ? industrial designer: Do we have the the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: . user interface: marketing: So these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . I I will first I would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: I think Yeah , it did . marketing: S user interface: It had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: When the user requirement is essentially just to operate the T_V_ , user interface: Does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Seven is good , yeah , isn't it ? I can't True or false ? No sorry tr one is true . marketing: But I think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: No it's it's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: No that's false . marketing: d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: I think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i Interface Expert . marketing: But you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: yeah , I think i it might even exceed it . marketing: And what about you , Brian ? project manager: Oh , I'll go for a one . for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: Yeah th marketing: and user interface: yellow . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: But if a person doesn't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . project manager: Come on that was the tha marketing: No , don't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . user interface: Is that no is that not trends ? marketing: no , personally as a Marketing Expert I don't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . marketing: Some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . But in electronics , I think , it's not q always quite so you don't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: I think , you know , if you're going to buy a T_V_ maybe a company'll have That you're going to choose from , a company'll have two or three choices , but they're different designs . project manager: user interface: No , obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: I'm just trying to Okay . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . Three or four ? project manager: marketing: no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: Six . user interface: What are we doing ? industrial designer: What are we doing ? marketing: No sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: Adding them up ? industrial designer: We're gonna average them ? marketing: Yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: Can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: Sorry ? industrial designer: How it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: Yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the as a fruit shape or something . user interface: Well going on the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , I would give it , well , because it's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so I would actually give it a three . As far as the technology it its' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it's missing the screen , as we said , but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , but it doesn't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . project manager: Yeah , I am sort of pret Just the fruit does me in , it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but I'm just not swallowing the fruit , so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: also I would have liked to have seen the L_C_D_ screen in it . personally I wi I think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . And the second thing , now people don't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . industrial designer: Well , I think it's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . Pretty much kept to the company strategy , so I would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: . marketing: Yeah , and me also , like , this product me me me this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe <doc-sep>project manager: as you may have noticed I user interface: industrial designer: project manager: created separate folders because it was tending to get a little busy in our shared project documents folder . project manager: I don't know if everybody put their own documents in the right folder , which is for now the detailed design meeting . user interface: Didn't we just do that ? industrial designer: Yeah , save in the folder . project manager: Oh no , this is just one big document , so you can leave that wherever it is . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: what are we going to do ? I've opened it already . I'm still going to take some minutes , and if I'm right , you two are going to give a prototype presentation ? industrial designer: Oh , sorry . And then we have to look at something which is less nice , the finance aspect , whether we can afford what we have designed , user interface: Oops . project manager: and if we can we can commence the final part which is the production or project evaluation , how did we work together and what are the results , and how happy are we with those . And the R_ and R_ logo , it just says R_ and R_ now , but industrial designer: Okay ? user interface: Any questions so far ? marketing: Big microphone . user interface: Oh y you perhaps you should make it a bit big , so people know it's there and industrial designer: Do not forget it . using the scroll button on sides y I user interface: You push the scroll button industrial designer: Yeah , you push the scroll button user interface: and it's claps out if there's a industrial designer: and a drop down menu or a pull out menu comes out and you get you get the options becoming available . industrial designer: So you can scroll down too with the scroll button , as you can see oh , it's here , just push it in , the menu comes out like this and i it all becomes visible . And you could also touch it so that it comes out , industrial designer: Yeah , that's c user interface: and and use the the the scroll thing as a with your fingers . industrial designer: Okay , it's also nice to see that we made a small menu , the options menu becoming available when pressing the scroll button , and the opportunity to use the teletext , whi which is used which should still be used and we think that it's very handy to put it not under the options menu , but in Yes . project manager: So a separate button for for text , industrial designer: In a separate button , yeah . Would you like to make any comments about next user interface: well , this is the total interface that f of the L_C_D_ screen . just when you are one and you go to two , you can or if you go to five , you can go back to one with that button . marketing: user interface: And this is the the on off knop , the stand by knop . You can see very clearly now that the teletext and options menu isn't taking much it's taking much part of the screen , so it's very when you when you use it , doesn't become irritating to see . industrial designer: 'Cause if you put it on the top you always get see the the options menu . industrial designer: project manager: And I just missed when I was typing The R_R_ stands for ? industrial designer: user interface: That's the logo of the project manager: Logo , okay . It's th th right now it's only R_ R_ , but marketing: project manager: Okay well industrial designer: Full screen . 'Kay , my task was this time to put up a questionnaire by which we can evaluate the design of the remote control by the questions we requirements from the of the users . Questionnaire with seven point scale from one to seven , from true to false , user interface: Right . marketing: like question , is remote big enough , we can say it's true or it's false by steps . marketing: The three important things of refa are from th of this year is are , industrial designer: Sorry , user interface: industrial designer: you used the PowerPoint marketing: is the remote control fancy enough , user interface: Yeah . Is the design fancy enough ? user interface: Well marketing: Project Manager , what do you think ? project manager: Well it's looks fancy , especially with the green colour . project manager: Only what happened to the single curve we spoke about last meeting ? user interface: It oh it's in the background . industrial designer: Now the single curved idea was Yeah , okay , you ge user interface: Y you should make a sideways view . user interface: So it would be something like this from the side , but with a bit of curve here , industrial designer: it works . industrial designer: That's not very i it's also very handy if you make a side curve way to make the the remote control very thin at the bottom at a bottom at a bottom . make it rather thick on the top , because on the top it has the screen , which takes in some space , and the batteries can be located over there , user interface: Yeah . So you just make the back of this part a bit bigger , industrial designer: so user interface: so that it lays a bit o industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: Isn't going to be a little bit heavy at the top ? industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , that's a bit of problem maybe . marketing: With two batteries , the whole print plate and t and top , and if you're holding it quite a lot I think user interface: Yeah . I think yeah , the battery should be in here , because it's just nothing , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Okay , but we have to rate these things now ? user interface: 'Cause otherwise I think i marketing: Yeah , we have to rate . user interface: I if you don't make it green , then the elder people won't won't like it . marketing: I think Yeah , I have to agree , all the colour colours don don doesn't matter that m that much now , user interface: Yeah . project manager: Well I think especially because of the microphone and the L_C_D_ screen also . marketing: Yeah , I n used I wouldn I should use that one , but it doesn't industrial designer: user interface: But it's a one Maybe marketing: Okay , no it's two ? True is a one . marketing: Very true , is it very true or isn't that true ? project manager: Well I'd say two on a scale user interface: Well they think it's very true , but industrial designer: It's very true , because we designed it to be very fancy , marketing: Yeah , I think two . user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: so user interface: but industrial designer: It's very fancy , I think . user interface: We should perhaps industrial designer: Have you ever seen a remote control like this ? project manager: No , okay well , that's true . marketing: Then ? project manager: That doesn't matter that much , so make it a one . project manager: Yeah user interface: because it has an L_C_D_ screen , a mi microphone . project manager: m industrial designer: And the scroll is rubber , user interface: It's from rubber . Also huh -huh the buttons , are they easy to find ? That was a big requirement of the old people . industrial designer: With the ones marketing: Are all the buttons easy to find ? Not only this buttons , all the buttons . user interface: but if you touch the options then it's industrial designer: Take a harder look , yeah , sure . marketing: I think th it's industrial designer: It's easier than the regular remote control . marketing: easy t project manager: Yeah , and you use these buttons the most , marketing: Yeah , I think this is easy now . I think th I think the options buttons are not the the easiest way to to project manager: huh ? So industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: No they're not , but they're they're they are easy to find . industrial designer: Yeah , they are a lot easier to find than th than on the regular remote controls marketing: I would rate it a user interface: Oh . project manager: So industrial designer: So you have t you have to use the the the manual to understand most project manager: which marketing: But that's that's vantage of L_C_D_ screen , you can have text . project manager: Two , three and industrial designer: It's not perfect , but marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: And why is that ? marketing: I personally think , because I d I don't think i maybe it's easy to use , it has to be easy to find right away . I I think if you have the button at the right , I don't think you can find the option button that easy . user interface: Yeah , but you don't have t have to use the button on the right . marketing: Yeah , okay , but you have y then you have here s written option on here , the teletext button , user interface: Yeah . user interface: You can touch options project manager: A two , okay , user interface: and it's comes out . project manager: It's the box below it , industrial designer: the next question the next question . user interface: I think it's industrial designer: I think it's the most useful remote control ever to be manufactured . project manager: Okay , you're very enthusiastic about your own design , marketing: Also if you're sixty years old project manager: huh ? industrial designer: Yeah , but because it has the regular controls , li as you can see in the screen now , and you don't have all the other options always on your screen . You want these options to marketing: Also project manager: As well for the for the older people ? industrial designer: sure . marketing: Yeah , as well as your if you're fif sixty years old , you're holding one of those things in your hand user interface: Yeah , but Yeah , but they they don't want the extra options , right ? marketing: No , but we're going to th make this f for a all kind of people , user interface: So project manager: And would it be easy for them to use the speech recognition ? user interface: Yeah , okay , marketing: so it it it has to be user interface: but so they could I think it is . project manager: Because that might marketing: If you read the manual , user interface: Yeah , alright . user interface: Because it it's not it's not it's it's not difficult . industrial designer: because a lot of user interface: You say you say record to to the to the speech recognition , industrial designer: Channel one , channel four , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , well maybe that would make it even more easy to use for them . marketing: So industrial designer: Because all the people who can't user interface: I would make it two . industrial designer: That's definitely our user interface: Oh nee , oh seven is it ? It is . project manager: but I think you should make it one scale with with one being good and seven being bad , marketing: Yeah , I think isn't , this has to be something like isn't overwhelmed . project manager: because otherwise we can't calculate anything from the results , user interface: It's not overwhelmed . project manager: because we designed for that , huh ? marketing: Remote control has colours that different that meet different target groups . project manager: Yeah , and I though w we had about single colours , marketing: That's true . project manager: but you can also make a wood colour , not just one single colour but a wood-like thing , user interface: Yeah . project manager: can't you ? marketing: Also with rubber ? user interface: I think you can . project manager: Whether it looks like wood , it isn't w it isn't wood marketing: Yeah , okay . project manager: but user interface: It it feels like rubber , project manager: You can make a print on rubber , user interface: but project manager: can't you ? Yeah . project manager: So that's a one then , user interface: Well but then when you scratch it it does come off . marketing: Yeah ? project manager: huh ? marketing: That's a one ? user interface: So that's a bit industrial designer: Yeah , it is it is harder to marketing: Okay . project manager: Do you have many questions ? marketing: I have industrial designer: to like project manager: Oh , okay well marketing: user interface: Oh we have time . marketing: The material used is spongy , user interface: What ? marketing: that that's that's a one , that's m rubber . marketing: Yeah , user interface: Oh marketing: I th think it's not the most spongy thing . user interface: but not it's not very spongy , because it's hard rubber . industrial designer: because you want to make it rather flexible but not too flexible , user interface: Hard but Yeah . marketing: Y you can't you can't lose it if you're sixty years old . If first time see the thing you didn didn't adjust set the microphone , and then you lose it , then you have lost it . user interface: Yeah , it it is there's the project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: Isn't hard to lose . user interface: it's a six , you think ? industrial designer: Isn't hard to lose , yeah . marketing: Or if you're you're sixty years old , your demands project manager: Yeah , but a har A hard to lose is good . Yeah , so then this is it is almost true , industrial designer: This project manager: A two . marketing: Nah , the material isn't that user interface: It's it's much more younger . project manager: Well I think it's it's a lower number , so better because w we designed it for young people especially , user interface: Yeah . marketing: Yeah , project manager: didn't we ? user interface: I think it's a two marketing: but I user interface: but marketing: Okay , okay . project manager: What do you think ? marketing: I think because project manager: Questions ? industrial designer: A two ? I think it's two . user interface: What did marketing: Because younger peoples are cr critical and they wanted a lot of features on this thing . industrial designer: Well , n not exactly but if it had some games on it or something like that , user interface: Yeah bu but industrial designer: but it's for a remote control I think it i it would satisfy those needs . You could call to your industrial designer: Yeah , the speech possibility , user interface: yeah , and the screen , industrial designer: the colours . marketing: It's three features , basically , project manager: with marketing: the L_C_D_ touch screen is feature . user interface: aren't the features the microphone's feature and that you can change the channel's feature , and that you can change the volume is feature , project manager: Yeah . user interface: Enough features ? marketing: So I've chos I shou I think it's it's it's a one . I think once you've 'cause you have the channel features b you have the screen features , audio features , the you have all buttons on it which you'd like , microphone extra , L_C_D_ screen extra , scroll thing extra . marketing: Has user interface: it's not the colour , so maybe you should make two , but it has R_ and R_ . user interface: Yeah , project manager: Yeah , user interface: but not R_ and R_ yellow I think . Well m th but the logo is on on the front , industrial designer: Okay , true , yeah . project manager: so a two , yeah , user interface: One d on i it's the colours and the marketing: X_ marks spot . project manager: that's marketing: And the menu is avail that is available is easy to use . industrial designer: I think it's easier to use than a regular remote control , because when you push on the options menu , you get the the the various options entirely explained . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: Instead of just finding out what an icon means on a button . Yeah , user interface: And you can navigate easier , because wi with the you have to push the the the arrows and with a normal T_V_ remote . Well industrial designer: marketing: Let's go th for inhalation of air] user interface: Menu . project manager: Oh , well that's that's pretty good , user interface: We only have twos . project manager: let's see oh , it isn't asked to save but it did already industrial designer: Yeah . Well , the next part might be a little bit difficult to do in a group , but I am willing to try it . marketing: project manager: Because we are going to look at the finance and I have a nice Excel sheet to do that . and we're going to calculate the production costs , and if they are under or at twelve Euro fifty , user interface: Yeah . project manager: we're good , and if they're not we're going to re-design , user interface: Yeah . project manager: but we have to do that very very quick I think , user interface: So we're going to erase features or something . I don't know if I user interface: Do you have the cost project manager: put the Excel sheet in the user interface: or Let's hope . I think it's user interface: We're going to be here at eight o'clock . industrial designer: user interface: We're goin still going to be here at eight o'clock . user interface: it was in my my information , so industrial designer: It i It wasn't too much . user interface: Well , if it doesn't work project manager: maybe I could ask one of you to fill it in , so that I can also take minutes , user interface: I want to fill it in , but project manager: and maybe the other can use that thing to count numerous functions . user interface: But you should direct marketing: Count it ? Li like write it be project manager: Well we have to count some things and we have to think about some things . user interface: The number of marketing: project manager: No , count number of functions , because for every button you have to pay industrial designer: Oh okay . project manager: and there are different screen shots , so or different different screens , industrial designer: Well I dra marketing: Ah , okay , cool . industrial designer: Danny , Danny , I'll do that , marketing: Huh ? Yeah ? Oh , yea yeah , you design it . industrial designer: because I draw the project manager: so user interface: We've got a battery , one or t two batteries , or not ? nee one battery , with two small batteries . project manager: Yeah , but it's it's more about the energy source , huh ? Do you use a hand dynamo , a battery , kinetic or solar cells ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: Electronics , simple chip industrial designer: Hand marketing: We have user interface: advanced chip , right ? marketing: No , we have sample speaker . marketing: But b al but we also have sample speaker , do user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: But it isn't three dimensional , user interface: Oh the the industrial designer: it isn't curved in a l marketing: This one is user interface: it's not going to work people . industrial designer: No no no , project manager: rubber indeed ? industrial designer: single curved is like this . that's the only curve you made , marketing: Yeah , bu what industrial designer: not th curved like that . user interface: Thirteen ? marketing: There are two curves , right ? Oh , okay I understand , I understand . user interface: With a scroll wheel , industrial designer: Huh ? user interface: right ? Is he integrated ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: we gotta integrate scroll wheel and push button , because when you push it and you w it won't just pu makes possible to s user interface: Oh yeah , right , we want it to it's not it's not no . user interface: Oh , we don't have any buttons , so marketing: Eighteen and a half , user interface: Yeah , we need to marketing: damn . industrial designer: Yeah , if you can't push it you have to tap the the options window button here and then scroll down with the d with with the button . user interface: Yeah , but if you would i it is a new feature , it it's something special . industrial designer: Okay , so we don't exactly need the single We don't need a curve . marketing: But w d wha user interface: No , the curve doesn't really industrial designer: 'S possible to lose curve . marketing: Was that does that mean to it , single curve ? industrial designer: Yeah , that's meant with scr with s curve . industrial designer: If you make it a flat one , s n it's no curve , you got no curves . marketing: So we don't user interface: So we still marketing: Yeah , we also have to industrial designer: Is it possible to make user interface: Could could we do it on a regular chip on print or something ? marketing: No , otherwise we don't have an L_C_D_ screen . user interface: No ? Ma y you just can't do that , or industrial designer: No . project manager: And what did you change ? You changed the scroll wheel user interface: We changed th project manager: and user interface: Yeah , and the single curved to uncurved . Yeah , so that does doesn't doesn't that mu I think project manager: point , so maybe you should should user interface: No . marketing: That that's user interface: Yeah , but it's t marketing: Yes , four points . user interface: Yeah , but it is it it is a new feature , project manager: Or can't you ? user interface: it is something special . industrial designer: Yeah , becau when you lose the marketing: Yeah , but what what else what else do you want to scrap ? user interface: I don't know . project manager: Or make it on a hand dynamo , but I don't think that will work . industrial designer: marketing: Ma make it with wood instead of rubber ? industrial designer: No , that's no . industrial designer: Make it w when you made it a remote control of wood ? user interface: We could make it titanium instead of rubber . project manager: Yeah , but a wooden remote control only helps for old people we discussed , user interface: Oh . Oh can I ask something ? project manager: yes ? user interface: What is special colour ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: this , we have to have that one too ? industrial designer: It isn't . user interface: Th then we still have too much marketing: Yeah , okay , user interface: if we use the industrial designer: But m yeah , course , marketing: three . industrial designer: but user interface: Yeah , we we scrap that one ? industrial designer: What we'll have . marketing: Yeah , but a wood user interface: Make it marketing: we can make it brown , dark brown , not wood . user interface: Yeah , but it's it's special colour , is it a all kind of colours ? industrial designer: Yeah , special colours , fruity colours . marketing: Normal colours , yellow user interface: You have to add something to the rubber to make it green . marketing: Yeah , but then I d I don't think we can ever make to a twelve and half . user interface: Yeah , you can , you should you have to lose marketing: But then we have to scrap L_C_D_ display , we have to scrap user interface: No , it is the scroll wheel , I guess . No then we have to scrap everything we got because how many colours we gonna make ? industrial designer: If we lose the scroll wheel and make it totally depending dependent on the touch screen marketing: Five ? Then we have two . industrial designer: Okay , if you lose if you lose the user interface: It was such a great idea . industrial designer: You lose this one , you got eleven point five marketing: They can add two colours . how ma the colours like l she told , is that all the colours we add or industrial designer: How d how many colours ? user interface: What do you mean ? industrial designer: Special colours , all the colours you want , because you want to make p marketing: Yeah , but we we we are we have yellow , red , black , titanium . industrial designer: Yeah , but when you use more than one colour , it's a special colour . user interface: But I think when you use the colour that's not originally the rubber then you use special colour , industrial designer: I suppose . marketing: Yeah b Yeah , but we're gonna make it yellow red , and then you add you have two special colours on top of the one we have now . project manager: Yeah , but isn't it per remote that you pay ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: I then I think I p I don I don't think they me mean they're special project manager: Half ? user interface: Oh right , yeah . industrial designer: You don't need four of those four of those special colours in one in one remote . industrial designer: project manager: Because of thing user interface: Or not ? project manager: Yeah , well you can at least make it curved again . project manager: Because that was very important , user interface: It's too bad for the speaker . project manager: huh ? So it's curved , it's still that so we we dropped the speech recognition together with the speaker . user interface: Should we change that tha that that's a one if not , marketing: yep . user interface: or not ? Could you copy it ? project manager: And the rest is the same , user interface: And make it project manager: huh ? Am I right ? marketing: Y yea the scroll wheel is dropped . user interface: Would you ? industrial designer: Twenty minutes ? user interface: By the Perhaps you can save this one , and then copy or something . industrial designer: Okay , so you had this list at start ? project manager: ? No , I hadn't . and did you try to make a new design , or what were you trying to do ? user interface: Yeah , I tried to copy that one , but it didn't work . project manager: Oh , you can arrange industrial designer: You can only re erase ? user interface: Erase . user interface: When you saw th li Earlier when we selected it , w I couldn't erase anything . user interface: project manager: Well but that's also useful for the evaluation , because I think we have a prototype now marketing: Evaluation drops . project manager: which we can afford and we only need to draw a little bit to get a good design . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: Let's see , we can save this now . what did you think about the process ? How satisfied are we ? industrial designer: Deadlines were sometimes very short . marketing: I think we it should be b it would be better if we worked a little bit together . user interface: Yeah , you had information I didn't have marketing: something he said user interface: and then marketing: yeah , and you had information I also had , user interface: Oh right . marketing: so some some things I had in my presentation , they already told , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: And for me it sometimes was a surprise who was going to present what , huh ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: So yeah , that I don't think that is the best way to work at for such project . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , no , or maybe session of five minutes together or something , and then work separate . industrial designer: but but why not work here together , for example ? user interface: Yeah , you could industrial designer: Why should we be separated from each other in those difference different rooms ? user interface: Yeah . Then you can work together too by mail or by , I dunno , chat , something , project manager: No . I don't think that was the best way , but industrial designer: But the technology was fantastic . user interface: I I don't really like the board , it doesn't really work great . industrial designer: Work now ? marketing: Yeah okay , but I don I do I think becau that's because industrial designer: Perhaps it is e user interface: It does work , but sometimes it doesn't erase or it doesn't industrial designer: Yeah , perhaps it is easier to get one of those dig digital pens or so and to and lay it next to that keyboard over there . project manager: So you don't think the SMARTboard is is really useful user interface: But project manager: or user interface: Well industrial designer: It's useful , but not m user interface: it is useful , marketing: Yeah , it is useful , but user interface: but it doesn't really work all the time . user interface: Th the pen doesn't industrial designer: Because when you put this pen on the screen for exam and line is d being drawn at at two or three centimetres below . But industrial designer: The project because of the deadlines you didn't had the time to have , you didn't have time to to make a very qualitati qualitative presentation . industrial designer: So you used this the different PowerPoint presentations in which you put your material in the Oh . project manager: the means , we discussed the smart board , and what about this digital pen ? user interface: I I I used it , marketing: I didn't use it at all . project manager: Yeah , well industrial designer: But I didn't I project manager: I use it as a a normal pen and and and only you use it to get it on the computer , user interface: Yeah , I used it to y to project manager: huh ? user interface: Yeah , it did work pretty well . user interface: I don't think why you would want to use it actually , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: To make some designs , marketing: It is it is industrial designer: it is very easy . user interface: It's a bit industrial designer: Yeah , it's too big , it's too fat . industrial designer: project manager: Okay , and what about the teamwork ? user interface: I think it was great , marketing: Team work was okay . project manager: but that was it was our assignment , marketing: With some things that was only problem , user interface: Yeah , but it was because we didn't marketing: but project manager: huh ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: and maybe I should walk out of the room when you discuss this point , the leadership . project manager: And creativity ? Well , when we look at this I'd say we have been creative , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: huh ? But user interface: Well . industrial designer: Yeah , or the room for project manager: There was room for industrial designer: it was the idea to be creative , so user interface: Yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: The information was sometimes a little bit too late marketing: Little bit lo yeah . industrial designer: or marketing: it it it took a lot of time before you got your ema user interface: You just sit there for ten minutes . user interface: project manager: You did ? Well , user interface: Oh industrial designer: project manager: I didn't have time for that . user interface: did you ? Is it on there ? Is it on there ? marketing: Wha user interface: I didn't find the didn't look but project manager: At some times I Sometimes I received like like five emails at at one moment , industrial designer: Was searching and searching . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: I always user interface: I got like one email after ten minutes or something . marketing: So does this I think lik oh and information was a bit low I think , sometimes , user interface: And it not a lot marketing: in in in in the beginning I didn't understand what what to do . industrial designer: No , w I didn't know user interface: I didn't know marketing: Yeah , like I with with the remote and I never new we have t we had to yeah made a made a rec a remote control . user interface: And I didn't know what to do for the first ten minutes before we got here , marketing: Yeah , so user interface: so I went , right . project manager: And I was working and working and work user interface: Just looking at the screen and industrial designer: No . project manager: but after all we can say we are satisfied , but it it could've been better . industrial designer: First of all I didn't think that we were able to make an L_C_D_ screen first point , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Yea so tha actually you could make an L_C_D_ screen but no mic , or it could make mic but no L_C_D_ screen , when you look at that . project manager: And what were the other points to to improve this whole process ? marketing: user interface: I dunno . project manager: And so more time w might have improved the the quality of work , marketing: So project manager: is what you say . Yeah , but that It's now half past four half past three , so user interface: Yeah , but it's just the the off hours between that you will work alone . project manager: I just got my warning for the last five minutes , so I'll move on to I guess my last slide , user interface: You did ? Well marketing: project manager: yes , which is the closing . I don't know if that's the best way to when it isn't is it when it is too expensive to quickly re-arrange it and say , okay , this is it , user interface: Oh , right . project manager: but we had to do it , user interface: Well project manager: huh , because we have to have a design , and that is within the budget . Maybe we should re-evaluate the product , but we did that before , and we also evaluated the project . At least I am , with the results , user interface: project manager: so celebration , well , for the three of you , user interface: Yeah . marketing: project manager: But well , thank you very much for your co-operation , marketing: project manager: and I had a very nice day so far . user interface: I I think we have to fill in a questionnaire again , project manager: Yeah I have t user interface: but project manager: I think we also have to go to our own rooms again , but well user interface: We do ? industrial designer: . But maybe you can try to make a screen shot of this , so I can try to include it in the final report . user interface: Yeah , but it's it isn't a picture or , well , is it ? project manager: I know , we should remove this , industrial designer: You s file save as the J_ PEG J_ PEG . marketing: Can you find it as a J_ PEG ? user interface: No , industrial designer: No . marketing: Celebra user interface: How big do you want the images ? marketing: Or shouldn't I ? industrial designer: Let's have some fun <doc-sep>user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: And this design , detailed design meeting we will discuss the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . If you hold it and you press another button , the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen . marketing: is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: So Yeah . marketing: when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: that's just the normal as th as the normal remote controls So You put it you came in page one hundred . user interface: Oh yeah ? project manager: But I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . user interface: industrial designer: I think if you look at most controls , they've got more buttons than this . industrial designer: because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here . So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: Yeah , they're project manager: Just n normal plain buttons . user interface: it industrial designer: But they're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . Then because we only have thirty minutes left , I will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it's all possible what we wanna do . And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros . project manager: If we see I don't know if I've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see something wrong . project manager: I don't know , but I think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . project manager: Because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end . project manager: I think we can discard the help and the mute button by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . project manager: And this is marketing: d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: No those are one , I think . Where did marketing: Well , think actually there're two buttons , user interface: it's just one button . project manager: So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: Well I was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . user interface: So , project manager: Yeah w user interface: we've still got four buttons , but just So project manager: Yeah th I think they count the materials . user interface: You got not not a butt button itself , but on the project manager: Yeah on the chip there . Maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros . Also the L_C_ display , I think it's , I think it's too expensive for the display we use . project manager: I think they try t industrial designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: That's right , but what's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: Only the docking station , I guess . industrial designer: Which isn't the the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic . Don't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: So user interface: Are we gonna buy a a remote control when you can use it ? marketing: user interface: So Yeah . marketing: Well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . So project manager: I think it's difficult as well , marketing: Or b project manager: but marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . project manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . marketing: But how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: Then you will Or maybe you can scroll . So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . And the regular chip is not possible ? It has to be advanced ? industrial designer: If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: Yeah but I think that's That is a big advantage , user interface: So Yeah project manager: if we're user interface: Yeah it's a big advantage . project manager: But user interface: But , it's project manager: Can we use can't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: yeah . project manager: If you push it three times ? marketing: Well , think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: Yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: Yeah . user interface: But if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? Eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: I think that's the case on most user interface: It's One m one b , a few buttons . project manager: Ah that's not really that marketing: Well , that could be just like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . marketing: But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: No . marketing: Holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . project manager: I think if you make a good advertisement on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . industrial designer: If we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . industrial designer: So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: yeah . user interface: But , you can make a f quite a big remote remote control for just the same price as a small one . It's it's more the moulds in which they are being made , I think . , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? Freek , what do you think ? marketing: Well , I still think we should go for the single curve design . Yeah I'm ag marketing: I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: So people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: Yeah . project manager: No , but I think marketing: So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: I think the most user interface: But they know the scroll-buttons from old radios . project manager: We can let l user interface: So maybe it's project manager: We can stick it out , a bit . If they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and But we will see . marketing: Five more minutes ? project manager: No we've got fifteen minutes but marketing: Okay . What ? marketing: 'Kay so I did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . Innovative ? What new functions are there ? , easy to use ? , learnability is a very important factor here . , is it functional ? Are there not too many functions among the functions ? And are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? And the cost . If our company is If it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? And So we're supposed to evaluate it right now . Oh I have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . marketing: Is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: I think it's fancy . Sh marketing: I think so , with our L_C_D_ screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: So we've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: Should be do-able . project manager: Is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: Is the design functional ? , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: Yes . Oh , and do we take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? Like it getting lost and R_S_I_ influences ? user interface: m industrial designer: we haven't thought of that one . marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: Well they are now . project manager: No I think with our new radio button , I think it's I think it's better . marketing: I think project manager: I think it marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . I was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . marketing: Is this Like after this , are we done ? Or project manager: N We've gonna We're going to evaluate it . project manager: What is it ? marketing: Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here . industrial designer: Yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance marketing: Yeah , true . Was it clear what everybody had to do according to their roles and functions ? Yeah ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: Teamwork ? Did it work out ? Working together ? Also , you two of you with the last phase ? user interface: So industrial designer: Yes , was okay . industrial designer: The tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it's very easy . Were the means sufficient for the tasks we had to do ? Or were they too much ? user interface: . industrial designer: Well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but The digital the digital pen is very nice . industrial designer: A flip-over or a more precise digit user interface: A flipper's easier , so Yeah . user interface: But if you want to share of when you make a picture like this on the presentation , it's easier to share it with other people . user interface: you can sh save it and put it on the internet , or in shared f folder or sh shared directory . marketing: Yeah , user interface: So So marketing: I tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: Yeah ? No ? industrial designer: No . project manager: But I think you can user interface: T can can you export it like a Yeah . Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? Or user interface: yeah maybe when we n just give the numbers of of o one of out of s sev project manager: Yeah . user interface: it's easier to to do the th things that are like that on a computer . project manager: But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem , because it's very cheap to make as well . project manager: Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: Yeah , still I think if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: So you can also try to reach the younger people by putting fancy covers on on the market . marketing: Yeah , I think then it would be way more popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . I didn't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: I believe y project manager: Oh I think I have one now . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: Export as picture , I think . So project manager: Yeah , I'll just put it in My Documents marketing: Yeah , it probably will . marketing: Oh yeah , you're supposed to make a final project manager: And then I will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . marketing: Are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: maybe we have to fill another questionnaire <doc-sep>project manager: Hello , this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . project manager: the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . So , we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so basically I just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we've had from looking at some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , we've discovered that this year fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . marketing: so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that's really fancy , has lots of technolog tech technology in it . user interface: marketing: And that it's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the Real Reaction company . marketing: So fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: Okay . So I am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I think I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it later . generally , generally this remote control should be should be something , in my opinion , the first feature is just to be easy to use . So , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position inside the remote control . And s I can conclude like this , that we shouldn't need to learn how to use it . It should be we shouldn't need to es open a a t book and start reading and learning how to use this this remote control . So what I found out that as I said I think it's better to put more frequent ke buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . user interface: And maybe just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . And also f m because because customers doesn't like to buy lots of battery , it should not consume lots of energy . And my personal p preference is , as I said , just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used that much like settings button , like mobile phone . Usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put volume change or s ch can channel change buttons in the remote control . And if the user needed to do some more complex task he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . And also I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . For example , a sliding or rolling d stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with thumb . And I dunno but I think usage of a speech recogn r recogniser can be good . I know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . And I think it's good because it's something new and usually young people like something new . industrial designer: okay , so good news from me for me from Hamed , but bad news from Bob obviously , because spongy design , I don't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: Okay , so could you please , Fabien , open it . I Most of the things I have to write myself on the board , but project manager: This one , yeah . This this is just one thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just I just found this , that our company developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I'll just marketing: Inch . industrial designer: Yeah , seven seven inch T_ T_F_T_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . industrial designer: Okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . first thing is this will be the overall shape , no I'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can And if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which I found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can supply everything . I was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it's okay to use just two batteries and solar cells , so . the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . It depends where you put your screen , because the screen is seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . Then the graphical card for the T_F_T_ and the third unit is the I_R_ . The good news is that we can we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . So the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the T_F_T_ which is seven inches . I have to check what I wanted to from my point of view I don't care about the about the material used for the overall des ov all the device . project manager: Can you fit any for example a T_F_T_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? For example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , I can I can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: A all these things in in in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . Maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it's around the T_F_T_ then it's good , because it's just keeps it safe , project manager: Okay . user interface: Well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: This seven inch T_F_T_ screen , industrial designer: Yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: Well , seven to seven inches . industrial designer: marketing: have we decided that we're gonna use this T_F_T_ screen ? project manager: No , I don't think it's seven by seven , industrial designer: Yeah but project manager: I think it's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: To be honest , I was project manager: Usually when they say seven inch I think it's the diagonal . industrial designer: Yeah , honestly speaking I was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . industrial designer: So marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . marketing: So , what's the size of the device ? industrial designer: Ah well this is like this is almost nothing . marketing: Even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: Yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: Is it Can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: Because if it's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: A sm industrial designer: marketing: But is something that's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: W I I think so . I if the roller buttons are on the side you don't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow Well , that's that's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: So maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . , so I think we have a lot We have to take decision today , so I think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . first I think energy it's a key problem because it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . Because can we have L_C_D_ and speech recognition with battery , and it's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: Not J just a point to the energy th things . If we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it's okay for L_ speech recognition and L_C_D_ , project manager: Okay . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? Are are what Maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: Yeah I was thinking just common A_A_ cells . marketing: So if we use s solar cells , where is the sun if someone's watching T_V_ inside ? industrial designer: S d doesn't need to be sun . industrial designer: Yeah well I I suppose that I suppose that that this remote control won't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . project manager: At least when there is T_V_ you can get light from the T_V_ . industrial designer: Ah it's a it's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: At least it's new and maybe technology New technology . industrial designer: Yeah , that's why I wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . user interface: project manager: So I think before talking about the other thing , it's important thing it's the case . industrial designer: project manager: what what are gonna be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . For example for the for the L_C_D_ , if we choose to have a small device , we cannot use this a such a a a screen . Well what what would you guess as a shape ? Or what what would be the shape ? user interface: . And I prefer to is it shouldn't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . You can take some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it's it's designed for your f taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . So seven not seven but let's say five by ten it's I think it's that's my opinion . industrial designer: Yeah , I think it's feasib Well one How could we do it ? We could put the board next to , well , under the L_C_D_ and for example make the L_C_D_ be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . industrial designer: Like holding something , and the L_C_D_ to be just on top of it , you know somehow . I've I s I think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller L_C_D_ , if it's possible . industrial designer: Okay , so five to ten , I I think it's it's feasible . user interface: but I don't want to now invent something new , because we didn't discuss about it . So using some L_C_D_s we can touch , so we can remove keys and just having , I dunno the name , L_C_D_ responding to fingers . user interface: So But for now if we don't want to use such kind of screens I I think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: Yeah . user interface: because project manager: The problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we cannot do something very new . user interface: project manager: So let's go for a small L_C_D_ . marketing: So industrial designer: Okay , so Yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: A smaller s project manager: Yeah okay . something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? My first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , I thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: Seven to ten banana . marketing: Well it's it's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . user interface: marketing: what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: But it's just an idea . I dunno what you think about , but marketing: Do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Well , but If it's If it If the banana is big enough . Well user interface: project manager: Yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: I think this is not good . project manager: The screen has to be square ? Or it can be like a a shape , quite , with curves . industrial designer: But if it's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . But if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . I think that's more important than saving a bit of money on on the T_F_T_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit fatter than than the c c common one . Yeah , it should remember banana , but it's not doesn't have to b to be really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . project manager: So we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: Well it we'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: Okay . project manager: So , the last point we decided it's infra-red , I guess . You have other thing to add to this point , or no ? So , about the user interface , so we are going to use L_C_D_ . You talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: Like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: Yeah , peeling of the banana . marketing: industrial designer: First layer obviously spo Yeah , project manager: So industrial designer: w It's it's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah I think . project manager: Is it is it possible to do that ? It would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: project manager: Like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: I think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it's easy to make that , project manager: Yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: user interface: Yeah , some Something like a plastic cover covering some interface , U_S_B_ interface as in the in digital camera . You open a plastic cover and you see some U_S_B_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . So keys can be buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and when and when you open this cover it's like peeling a banana . project manager: Yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: Well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah it's a lic like a plastic cover , so . industrial designer: So I think if it's so then it's cool ? project manager: So , I dunno what you think , Bob , but it would be great for users I think , and very good for marketing . maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , I dunno how to do that technically , or . Yeah or a Yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover sticking to the to the all the stuff like with magnetic p magnetic magnetic materials in the border , so it's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . So you you can be sure that it will not be open while you're while while you are commonly using buttons on the banana . industrial designer: Well since since the since the things like the like the screen and how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we cannot b So we need that the that the peeling I dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . So , if if the solar cell won't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . So you're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: It is possible , but , well if it marketing: And a and a banana . industrial designer: I dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: And something we forgot , maybe , about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: Yes , I think . project manager: So we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: . marketing: user interface: project manager: And , yeah , I I think you should work together , s you Hamed and Peter , to work in a in a first prototype , and more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together

The Project Manager revealed that the new remote controls were initially priced at €14.60 each, exceeding the budget by €2. After a discussion, the team managed to reduce the cost to €11.60 by making adjustments to two parts of the design. This allowed them to incorporate additional designs into the existing models, ultimately setting the final cost at €12.50 per remote. In order to meet the tight budget, the group made several cost-cutting decisions, including reducing the number of batteries from 2 to 1 and choosing plastic as the case material. However, they retained the advanced chip, LCD screen, and docking station, which were considered the strengths of the product. The group also addressed the issue of buttons, realizing that it was a significant cost driver. As a quick solution, they eliminated the help and mute buttons, replaced the program buttons with a scroll-wheel, and removed a volume button and a channel button. Additionally, they discussed the concept of a spongy first layer that could be magnetic and act as a plastic cover for certain buttons or the USB interface, allowing users to peel it open like a banana. The Industrial Designer suggested eliminating the curve in the scroll wheel, while the Project Manager proposed removing speech recognition to further reduce costs. After considering various factors such as material, function, color, chip, LCD, and shape, the group decided to eliminate the scroll wheel function and microphone, change the color to green, and modify the shape to a single curve, resulting in a final cost of €12.50.

Summarize the group's discussion on cost control, finance, budget control, and detailed shape design.

industrial designer: Okay , project manager: Yeah ? industrial designer: how can I get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: Well it's you dumped the file in the in the sh in the project document folder . , diodes , bat batteries and LED lights , they're needed and they're everywhere available . It's a common technology , like I told , the circuit board , it's the most important part of the remote control . , we can use for that fibreglass with copper wires , it's it is can be made as fast as printing paper . project manager: But you don't think it's a problem to design the technical part of the remote control ? It's gonna be easy ? industrial designer: No . M user interface: With technical industrial designer: no , it's it's just a part of a known technology , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: But I kind of industrial designer: I don't think so , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: Yes . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard remote ? project manager: Well , we'll see . , well I don't know if you got the same pictures as I got , project manager: No . user interface: and I think they're we have to focus on the one hand the expert view or the novice user . th I think it's it's very much depending on the user requirements , I don't s know who's doing t project manager: Well , will there be some user requirements later on ? The ones I I've received from the account manager . user interface: Yeah , but it I think that's very important to watch what kind of functions there we want to put in a remote control . user interface: Yeah , well y we can put functions in it when yeah , when we get the user requirements and we can update it . we should we should choose one we should not compromise but really choose for expert viewer or novice v marketing: Yes , I agree . user interface: Well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . It's it's really depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n in use . Well , some of that will Yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the u some of the new requirements . project manager: So user interface: well , there are l at least basic functions , like just th the channels one till nine , on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . , most standard have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . Yeah , I just I thought Joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and I don't know if there are any if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it's com becoming less trendy or something like that . user interface: M you can just you can k marketing: I haven't really found a conclusion like that . , I th I thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier marketing: Design . project manager: user interface: Yeah ? marketing: user interface: well , that's all I have to say , I think . The working method there were hundred w h one hundred people , how do you say , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also filled out a questionnaire with a few questions . , ask whether common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and and stuff like that . So if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and very much used . And an important thing here , the most important customers , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . And elderly people , our market , are less interested in nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . We shouldn't implement too much features on on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them on one button and make them accessible in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it there are a lot of options there , so we can really make yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . marketing: And , if you want to implement V_C_R_ and D_V_D_ options , group them in the button , not too Yeah . Small buttons , so they won't be very , how do you say project manager: Visually presents . And a trendy look , well , although seventy percent of the market is consists of elderly people who don't really care for trendy looks or whatever , I guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . project manager: Well , then we I'm gonna show you some of the new project requirements and then we gonna discuss on what features we find important . Well , I think that may be so , but well , we can't just leave the teletext button off . project manager: So the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and don't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: Not too much , no . project manager: You know , it's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . Otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma the time to market . So maybe we should leave all D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ related features off completely . So you talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . project manager: But , well , they're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: I don't really agree actually , to be honest . It's a very small market which we will approach then if we want to reach customers younger than forty . project manager: Yeah , but it is it's is a dif it's a fact that the th th that bigger market you're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: Mayb yeah ? project manager: Our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . project manager: no no , but I think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . So maybe we can make a remote control that's primarily interesting for the younger group , but isn't that bad for an older person either . user interface: But what's our slogan ? project manager: Sorry ? Yeah , you will have to look that up . I thought it w might be , let's make things better or something , but user interface: Sense simplicity . Well , if I can make a start , I think it's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it's gonna be , and I already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . I think we're we're looking for some marketing: project manager: Yeah , we we're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic T_V_ functions . marketing: Well , to be honest , if our aim group is till forty , not older than forty , maybe that's not very yeah , we don't really need to have a simple remote control . marketing: I think we can implement more functions then , because basically the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: Yeah , but wha project manager: Yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: M yeah , that's why well a lot of the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , I think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: But project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no other s functions than just T_V_ , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: Yes . project manager: Well , ma user interface: Yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions aren't used . user interface: So why should j we put this function in ? marketing: Well , I think user interface: I think more I think people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than more functions . industrial designer: project manager: But I think you we can make some discuss distinctions in what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have Y Well you have different kind of equipment in your room , like a t T_V_ and a D_V_D_ player . project manager: You can , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the T_V_ set on your remote control with the with the , you know , audio settings and v screen settings . But w maybe we should put some func , I know that the younger people will most likely have a D_V_D_ player they want to , you know , they want to marketing: Yeah , control . user interface: Yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we're making . marketing: project manager: No , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the The new project requirements told us not to user interface: It's n Yeah . Maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: But you can put them under the same button . project manager: But what do you think ? marketing: So t project manager: Do th should we implement features that or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: No . project manager: No , you don't think so ? marketing: user interface: No , new requirements say no . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions don't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: Yeah , but project manager: You know , a lot of D_V_D_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: Yes , but we user interface: I i if it's too simple th they won't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . That's that's wha marketing: But but for for example , V_C_R_ , that's better example in this case . I think on a remote control for television you don't need to be able to programme the V_C_R_ to start recording at three P_M_ or whatever , project manager: No no , you don't No no , you don't need it . project manager: Okay , but we have to think w we have to think D_V_D_ I th , I guess , marketing: Yeah , I know , but project manager: so but from my experience it's kinda a lot of D_V_D_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . project manager: Maybe if we just leave the D_V_D_ functional m Well , I was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , I think we m should focus on the T_V_ then . user interface: Yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: And and it's just an a complimentary remote and not a universal one . It's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: Yes , but there are there are project manager: and it's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . project manager: but what televis industrial designer: But how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? There are a dozen of dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: Yeah , we we'll make w this one trendy . project manager: Well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . If you have a a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: Oh , okay . marketing: then I think it's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: Yeah , but I think that becomes too difficult , it's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . project manager: Yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but I've never heard of it in the first place . And user interface: Will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: Yeah , I , it's Sunday I always use it for the yeah , for the soccer project manager: Yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? Or do you think it I think it's a kind of very rare and special function . user interface: Well , when you when you look for example , a couple of weeks ago I looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: Yeah . Okay , it goes Yeah , but that's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . industrial designer: Yes , but you could put user interface: Yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to to access all the same pages . project manager: Well yeah , industrial designer: If you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: Yes . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , I guess . , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? Or do we I dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . marketing: I think the plus and the minus button should be quite present , project manager: Th that's that's that's considered to be trendy also . project manager: Or maybe you should place them on a , in a special way ? user interface: I don't know . project manager: Yeah , something or somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . project manager: Yeah , and it the buttons should make it possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . project manager: Oh , what should we decide on then ? I think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which weren't worked out already , but it w shouldn't be a problem then . user interface: Maybe project manager: No , okay , but we don't have to , when we don't want to control other devices , I think it makes it even more simple . project manager: I think that we should use d user interface: Yeah ? marketing: I think double A_ . project manager: th the most Well , it has to be simple , and I wi user interface: Yeah . How much time do we ha we have left ? M m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: I think about twenty minutes . But that's that's Do you have you have you think about tha thought about that ? How we can what the extra touch can be . Do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: Maybe th m project manager: Well , it was something about how we lose them . Maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: I think that's n that's more for a for an age range or ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: Nah , a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . It w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . project manager: Or maybe it w should have a big light that can flash or something on it , user interface: Yeah . I think it's very impor because we're gonna make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . marketing: Ye I think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . But and I think it's gonna be very it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . project manager: So maybe that's i I think that's when when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , it's very important to find something like this . project manager: also for you maybe , when t you it's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . project manager: So big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . project manager: Yeah , or just different colours would be I don't know if people also wanna spend more money on fronts for their remote control . project manager: It could be be Yeah , you never know , but user interface: Why not ? marketing: Yeah . If you want it to be something , you know , it's ha doesn't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you don't want to get it l make it marketing: Yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . Yeah , you have to put it on its So it's like a vase or something you put on a table . project manager: Yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: If you do that , but I don't know if that's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros . user interface: project manager: I I don't marketing: I in in the base we could like make a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . marketing: That's probably stupid , but as I found here , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: But that's that's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: Yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: No , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . marketing: If an a button in in that user interface: project manager: And then also you don't even need batteries , because you can make it chargeable . project manager: Yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro No , well I think that it might be t p Well , nee but we don't Yeah . project manager: Maybe you , but we don't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . Aye ? project manager: Yeah , but we would d ma we'd do it in Taiwan and So , it's not gonna be that expen user interface: Production . project manager: S some kind of be I've never seen that before , and you make it be , you see it with the mo the mouses nowadays . industrial designer: Yes , but is that handy ? project manager: Well , I well it's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . user interface: It's it's it's it's project manager: And you can always find your remote control up user interface: it's not the purpose to be handy , it's industrial designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last two years , three years , with with t two batteries . Well , maybe yeah , you could when that's when it's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: And then you project manager: but you will you do need also an , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . Or marketing: Well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . project manager: Yeah , but then it's very easy to make it also a rechargeab I don't think that is gonna cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . marketing: On the other hand , if you don't do it , we can also make a nice bay . , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: Yeah . marketing: but I think the bay is definitely project manager: I think it's a good idea . And make it , you know , we we Well , we it's it isn't a t a most costly remote control . We just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it that it lights up , marketing: Sure , why not . And if you put it away , I think it's w we have to we that's marketing: Yeah . And for twenty five Euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: Yeah . project manager: and we can't deliver that in r with regards to the functions , user interface: Yeah . project manager: because we aren't gonna put marketing: With eye candy , ear candy , whatever . And then when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . project manager: Oh , if it let's well , we will see what's possible concerning the the costs , and if it's possible we'll do that . project manager: And the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . And and what people just think about , well , I'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it's very annoying when your battery is empty . And you know then when you haven't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo I've experienced that that marketing: Most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . Well , we will we will I think we'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: Or just give a beep when the battery's out or down . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you're not very motivated to do something about it . project manager: You don't want to have ever have those problems , and you won't have if if you have the rechargeable . And you don't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people don't like it . project manager: Yeah , but it w , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that's a great idea , I'm gonna use it . And when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , I'll never put him in the recharger , I think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . Then when they look get m I I I know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they're seeking for the remote control , they wanna see something quick and just push the button and th , user interface: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , I've never it's so simple , but I've never seen it . project manager: Okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? These clocks aren't synched . marketing: project manager: Oh , now I've put well , it is twenty p user interface: Yeah , I'll project manager: Okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: Something like that , yeah . project manager: Oh okay , I'll make sure I'll I had some problems with the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes won't be a problem , but I'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it won't work , but you'll see . user interface: Can you make an a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . Yeah , because I I d I did the first minutes I did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . Then I did a s second one with a nicer layout , which I could , know , use for the other ones well , but I d think I forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second it's get it's not working when you try to write second paper or something . project manager: And then you you had to overwrite it or someth I don't know . Has anyone got a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: Do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: I don't , for one . user interface: A little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: The shape is nice , it's something different , and we want we want that . project manager: Well , I I I have to say , I have this can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: Yeah . user interface: project manager: or I think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . project manager: We shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but I don't think it I don't know if it exists already , you should like make Alessi or something design it . But that's gonna then you c then you don't marketing: Yeah , but twelve and a half Euros ? project manager: Yeah , but then you don't have t yeah it that's not something i that's in the production cost a one it's a one time , you know s was it's a single cost . project manager: Yeah , m but but then you can nah , I don't thin I think that it would be more expensive , because I've bought the Alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: Yes , volume and programme should be there I guess , because you hands wi y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: And and lights ? How we're g well , maybe s a ring of no , no , you have to Maybe on the side of it . project manager: Yeah , but I also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to locate your remote . And then you have a strip of lights or something user interface: Yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . industrial designer: marketing: Half and hour ? user interface: Okay , five marketing: I thought our next next individual round was half an hour <doc-sep>user interface: But we don't we don't we do think it's well what if with ease of use , w which prefers the which the the customer of the user prefers . And after a while they start to develop some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . industrial designer: They n they need to understand what how to change channels and change the volume , so it's easier for them project manager: Could could I see the scroll bar as as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well , industrial designer: Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's project manager: th maybe you could could industrial designer: Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our . And and the case is is rubber ? industrial designer: Yes , rubber ? project manager: And the buttons ? user interface: Plastic or rubber . project manager: and the colouring ? industrial designer: yellow with project manager: with with grey or black . project manager: Okay , user interface: project manager: we'll we'll come to that later . industrial designer: But marketing: Well , you could use two of them to programme the channels on the two channel button , industrial designer: Yes , but it marketing: 'cause you have to assign two channel new channels . industrial designer: Or not ? project manager: M m but maybe you do want a programme button to for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition . project manager: Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it you'd disable it with a little beep and and industrial designer: Yes . project manager: Okay , well marketing: So project manager: the then we'll switch to my presentation . project manager: Yeah , it's it's w way above above the the the twelve Euro fifty . user interface: Why does the price and and the s oh , one exa project manager: Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum . if you would user interface: And and does it project manager: if you look at the w w w what we could do to make it more to make it just between the twelve Euro fifty , then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , by not using the voice recognition feature , industrial designer: project manager: I I guess if we leave the if we leave this one out , user interface: So the button we can use plastic . user interface: And the pla And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas instead of rubber . industrial designer: Well , b basically it when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in an enhanced case with these dull functions . Maybe we should look at an focus on another industrial designer: So Type of m maybe another market segment . project manager: Yeah , m maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy basic industrial designer: Yeah . Although I think we yeah , but we could still make a remote control that ap applies more to young people by giving it another colour already . project manager: so it is possible to make a device that attracts a little bit more to young people . industrial designer: Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good . industrial designer: So project manager: Well industrial designer: Is it fancy ? project manager: I d it is it is marketing: industrial designer: marketing: Yay . industrial designer: I think I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing the casing . It would be even more project manager: You like tita user interface: industrial designer: oh , you really like titanium . user interface: project manager: Yeah , I know , marketing: Is it project manager: but but it but that's fancy in the way fancy has has a lot of industrial designer: It has to do with fashion , I guess . user interface: It's trendy trendy , fun industrial designer: So do marketing: And w user interface: yeah . user interface: It's not the ultimate fancy two , but industrial designer: I think I th I think it would have been I would have think it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar . user interface: Yeah , but that's sti that's industrial designer: So user interface: Looking at the user needs , we only don't we don't have the double-curved case . marketing: Okay , and was it innovative ? user interface: project manager: Well , marketing: project manager: with the voice recognition feature and user interface: But that's not in it . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic energy source , but it's it's way too marketing: Yeah , and project manager: That would have been a thrill . industrial designer: yes , but marketing: So also a two ? industrial designer: I think it's a two . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . industrial designer: So It's maybe it's not very easy for user interface: Wouldn't give it more . two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? ease of use does not only apply to the most basic functions . You're right in that , but I I guess an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use , project manager: Yeah . project manager: So I could make it e easy ? user interface: If you make it a four it will be three in general . Three ? marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: Two ? marketing: two , two , three project manager: No , user interface: And a three ? project manager: I haven't said anything yet . project manager: Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . industrial designer: That's not even project manager: Does it will so it will be a two point five . marketing: industrial designer: But that's not possible to fill in , project manager: Yes , it is . It's not about the content , it's about okay , is it easy to f Yeah , definitely . user interface: we haven't re re really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find . user interface: Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker industrial designer: Yes . Maybe you have to programme it once , so to that l respond to a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . marketing: project manager: Well , I industrial designer: So , I th project manager: we should not stay too long on this subject because of the time , but I personally give it a one . There are cases in which the outside casing is can be how d how do you prono is is moldable . user interface: Was it one of our options ? industrial designer: No , it's not one of our option , marketing: No . project manager: No okay , but but user interface: So , in the in industrial designer: but when you look in the market , when you look marketing: this this was a most spongy option . industrial designer: but that's not that's not what they are talking about , I think . user interface: But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could . industrial designer: Yes , but it's not good enough , project manager: I'll give it a one . industrial designer: You take one ? What do you give it ? marketing: Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could project manager: Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig a number . I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . user interface: project manager: Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ? marketing: Well , the basic layout doesn't offem offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . project manager: What what we didn't talk about is user interface: Yeah , but it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's If you ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is it has all the features a normal remote has . Bec because you can we didn't talk about it , but you do have remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . project manager: you place a a regular remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the the the the signals . project manager: So you could enter any comment you like , as long it's able to as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . But that that's its power , I guess , because a regular programmable remote control contains , well , really a lot of buttons . marketing: I think think a one , 'cause v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like industrial designer: Yes . I I've I think we've succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price . project manager: The product is is is b high qua has a high quality and and is advanced . But whether or not our clients are are willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is well , is not sure . user interface: But we could couldn't what what's the selling price ? Fifty ? project manager: Twenty five Euros . industrial designer: That's quite ex user interface: That's price , but w w industrial designer: well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , a Phillips remote control , y you pay industrial designer: Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . user interface: Yeah , I kn I know from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders . project manager: Bu but well yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros . industrial designer: And it's easier to use because those remote controls don't offer voice recognition project manager: . What did you think about the process , the project process ? Ruud ? marketing: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Try to translate that . project manager: Any any other , Roo ? user interface: Yeah , I think industrial designer: Well , I think marketing: Ye project manager: Roo . industrial designer: So And the the the well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too the the choice of components was way too narrow . industrial designer: So there was not really a process of project manager: So we could we we could be we could've been creative . industrial designer: We we thought of possibilities who are not possible with the the current offer of manufacturing components . project manager: Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ? user interface: No , no . project manager: I think so too , it's it's it's of course a laboratory environment . So user interface: marketing: project manager: Yeah , but but si w w w when taken in account the the situation , I think we performed pretty well . project manager: Because of the response industrial designer: It it's project manager: or user interface: Response industrial designer: The response is very slow user interface: and industrial designer: and the possibilities are very limited . The p the pointing of the pen is not the place where it it writes its where it marketing: Draws . project manager: Okay , so user interface: So project manager: it it had to be better aligned , or what's the word ? user interface: You to take in account that your you m project manager: yeah . user interface: It's too slow project manager: It it was calibrated just before this meeting . industrial designer: It is ? project manager: So it's not the calibration , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: Ruud , w did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ? marketing: No . user interface: If it has O_C_R_ , I think I would use , but I I just took notes for myself and and and that's it . user interface: So industrial designer: But I think it's a great solution for for a known problem , writing down some notes , some some inf information , and then forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information . industrial designer: Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way . What w Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ? marketing: Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit , project manager: Yeah . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or the other way around , that you could show but m industrial designer: Yes , yes . project manager: I know , but user interface: So it's almost project manager: I know , but we couldn't use that feature , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: And and w you were when you're using Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , which you can use for drawing . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: we're done , we're finished , I believe . Thank you for your industrial designer: But how much time did we get for this meeting ? project manager: Forty minutes . project manager: So , we can redesign our I would like to industrial designer: Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . industrial designer: No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market <doc-sep>project manager: I've made a presentation but I'll open it on the Smartboard , so we can all see it . project manager: So it's in the project documents because that's what we can find here . So I'm the Project Manager , so I had to fill it in , marketing: 'Kay . we'll do the opening and then we'll meet each other , what we already do , so , that's not very much trouble . I'll I'll show you the the tools we have here , so that we can all use them . marketing: project manager: We'll discuss about our first ideas about the project , and then we'll close the meeting , and then we can individually do our things and then we'll get back here . And Well it has to be a have the the right the right buttons on the right place , that kin those kind of things . so every time we we'll do some individual work , get meeting , talk about it , and then go into the next phase . well as I just showed , there's a project management folder , a project document folder on the desktop . You just click on the on the folder and you open the everything you you put in it with your laptop . and the w the r the rest also works the same so when you open a notepad you you just get your things , you can draw . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: Maybe you should try to write on the on the big white project manager: Yes I will industrial designer: Does it ? Yeah . project manager: just we can start a new one , and we just go on , and don't throw anything away . So we all are going to draw a nice animal on this board , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: not my idea . So I'm to going to have to draw a kangaroo , industrial designer: project manager: but I'm going d I'm not going to . industrial designer: I hope this was part of the assignment and not your project manager: Yeah , 'kay . project manager: but I am the Project Manager , industrial designer: project manager: and officially this is my idea . project manager: what ? marketing: We're losing time , but project manager: Ah the first the first meeting is just a bit loose , loosen up , a bit meeting each other industrial designer: so start marketing: Alright . project manager: I hope our Industrial Designer does this better because this is industrial designer: Don't count on it . marketing: Do we have to guess ? project manager: Yes yes marketing: A hippo ? project manager: guess . marketing: project manager: We're going back and now our Industrial Designer can draw its most favourite animal . project manager: what kind of animal is that then ? industrial designer: I think can I say it ? marketing: Yeah sure . marketing: project manager: No no save it and start a new save it and start a new black doc a blank document . industrial designer: These are very important documents , of course , these drawings , project manager: Yeah well we have to save everything marketing: Yes right . project manager: So well you should try it but marketing: I should have made mine a white rabbit . marketing: project manager: What the industrial designer: It looks like an project manager: just a duck . project manager: Is it a duck ? marketing: You're standing in front of it , industrial designer: It's it's project manager: Is it a plane ? marketing: I can't see it . Yeah it's a bird , but what kind of bird ? industrial designer: project manager: It doesn't draw circles that easy . industrial designer: But we have do we have to name the specific species of the bird ? marketing: Release your anger . project manager: and then user interface: marketing: project manager: And then a a new blank document for . industrial designer: Why do I have to do the difficult tasks ? project manager: No well first industrial designer: pen project manager: yeah . project manager: And then you go to format I think , and current colour industrial designer: current colour . Just a wa that's the way we do industrial designer: project manager: it's quite easy . project manager: industrial designer: Well if this isn't obvious project manager: Well well marketing: Just save it . project manager: Well it's terrific , eh ? user interface: industrial designer: Thanks for this exercise . We're we want to sell it at twenty five Euros internationally so but we dunno what exactly th i it is in dollars , but twenty five Euros . industrial designer: So project manager: we want to keep it our costs at twelve and a half Euros so , keep that in mind when we talk about our materials an f and stuff , and marketing research . project manager: Now then we all we can sit down and discuss what do we think about our current remote controls , first about design about aim in the market etcetera ? marketing: Right . We can take notes and Well who has some remarks about the current remote controls ? Please ? industrial designer: Well I I didn't have to prepare anything about project manager: No I did . industrial designer: it's not , it's it's not my task to talk about experience with current remote controls , but project manager: Well just w we're four if we if we would just have one then marketing: I think it's im it's important to look at the remote controls of our competitors . marketing: On our corporate site I saw a new D_V_D_ player we're gonna produce . marketing: Maybe it's important to make it compatible with the D_V_D_ player project manager: That would be a nice idea , yes . marketing: so you can use your television and your D_V_D_ player with the same remote control . marketing: Furthermore it's important to make it acceptable for the whole world , for different cultures , maybe , because we want to we want to well fifty million ? project manager: Yes fifty million is our aim to a profit , so . marketing: Yeah yeah user interface: marketing: so a lot of people have to be able to use it . industrial designer: No but the b the buttons have to have to have international recognisable buttons and marketing: So user interface: Easy to learn . project manager: I'll make notes and then maybe well I'll put it in the project folder when I'm done just now . project manager: Y y you don't use the half of them that's that's user interface: Precisely . marketing: Maybe we could make one button to switch between D_V_D_ player and T_V_ user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah so it doesn't become too complicated with too much buttons and marketing: Yeah right . project manager: Yep , and maybe we do we even have more than just a D_V_D_ player . Don't we have other ou user interface: Yeah we should make it compatible perhaps with everything we use , we we make ? project manager: . marketing: Yeah so but th that's kind kind of standard T_ television so it also works on that . user interface: And I think the people who who will buy our remote already have some experience with remotes . industrial designer: It doesn't project manager: It doesn't have to be , but we can . user interface: industrial designer: it doesn't have to be user interface: W well it's a n it's a new remote and you don't buy a remote if you don't have anything to to control with it . user interface: Yeah alright , but marketing: We need to to keep it consistent with other d project manager: Yeah because we look at competitors industrial designer: Well . project manager: and w if we pick up the good things about that and give it a nice design industrial designer: . industrial designer: you can make it triangle shaped , user interface: Well we we could make more more oval or something , and and industrial designer: but that's not very recognisable . project manager: Oo industrial designer: Oval ? project manager: N we can use it as a as a game pad . user interface: Yeah or so industrial designer: I project manager: So one hand has the beer , so the other hand user interface: Well yeah it's new . user interface: but young people want something different marketing: No user interface: and it is project manager: Well i we already marketing: Yeah but it's quite important that it fits . project manager: one of our aims is that it has to be original and trendy so user interface: Yeah . But you still have to know it's a remote and not another project manager: Well there has been done a lot of researches about remotes we have to we can imagine user interface: Yeah alright . project manager: for me personally I have a a lot of remotes at home but those ones that have a a round ending and well just an square middle I don't like to use them . project manager: When it falls over it and I just have and then the button that I use most has to be here . project manager: It f it fits your hands and then you just push the button that you use most with thumb . marketing: Nah I don't agree with the long box shape industrial designer: Why not ? marketing: it it has to be custom made for the hand . project manager: Tho tho those new D_V_D_ players on the market do have those . industrial designer: But it does fit in the hand if you hold it like this , and you can make it another shape , marketing: Yeah but if you shape it industrial designer: but then you have user interface: No if y if you look at new Phillips D_V_D_ with their remotes pl players they they are the new remotes aren't box shaped . marketing: industrial designer: W no w what else ? marketing: No that's ol old fashioned . industrial designer: Yeah well but what what what do you suggest then ? user interface: Yes marketing: I can imagine that us user interface: Well most of of them are are somewhat thicker at the end , and get yeah thinner towards the the other end . industrial designer: but it's still then the the long box , but then with some round round forms in it to fit your hand , user interface: Yeah it project manager: Well marketing: ? project manager: A it h it has it it has a that's tha th th shape that it fits your hand . industrial designer: but it's it's still Yeah yeah al alright project manager: That's industrial designer: but but it's still it's still sort of box , yeah . user interface: Yeah yea industrial designer: It it has round forms marketing: Well industrial designer: but it in the end it's still the box , so that's what . industrial designer: Yeah yeah I understand , but no no I don't mean an entire box like completely square marketing: It shouldn't be too boxy , you know . industrial designer: but in in in at the end it's still this long box shape with convenient round shapes to fit . project manager: marketing: Right maybe something like this industrial designer: Yeah yes marketing: and then a button here to switch between different systems like D_V_D_ player industrial designer: I thought about something like that . marketing: and so you can I've industrial designer: A big recognisable button on top or something . marketing: Yeah right , and I do think we have to keep this kind of idea with the with the numbers and user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: The buttons should also be not too small , not too big , of course , marketing: Right . marketing: But it should be possible to to make it ap apparent that there are two functions for every button . user interface: Yeah maybe we can just like on cell phones those well you can you can put on on them , industrial designer: Colours , yeah . user interface: and so you can customise your your own remote with different colours or or special paint jobs marketing: That's kinda trendy . user interface: I dunno but industrial designer: I think we have to talk also about the the materials for project manager: Well it's just about our first ideas now user interface: Well industrial designer: . project manager: so I think individually we'll have to come up with ideas for the next meeting about these materials and markets etcetera . But project manager: Yes ? industrial designer: Already thought about something tha marketing: I think it's it's important to notate all the the decisions that we make , project manager: Yes . industrial designer: we have some some minutes left I w wrote down that the case should be plastic of course , hard plastic , the buttons should be rubbery I think . project manager: Well I have had remotes that they had the function of the buttons was about a layer over the buttons user interface: . industrial designer: No n n project manager: and when I've had use it much it was gone . Is there an a universal universal way of transmitting from the remote to the television so it's all about industrial designer: I think so . industrial designer: It's a a common stan standard way project manager: It's not that in China it's different ? marketing: Yep . But y you can have of course different between D_V_D_s and televisions and between marketing: And you can use industrial designer: It it's a we we make an a universal remote so it ha has to work with all kinds of brands and things . But our T_V_s are mostly made in China and that sort of country , so project manager: Probably yes . user interface: industrial designer: And have well yeah I've wrote something down about how it works . The user presses a button and with an infrared beam it signals the television set accordingly , project manager: marketing: But are industrial designer: but that's pretty obvious , I think . project manager: user interface: marketing: Are we going w with the front fronts idea ? project manager: Well I think w we can look into that in the in the next thirty minutes . marketing: and you can always use a front front on it , you know ? You can use it just plain project manager: Yes . project manager: Well j just y you get a n a normal front with it , but you can change them when you buy the user interface: Yeah . project manager: And we should dispatch those kind of fronts fronts a a around the world so user interface: . user interface: Well you can make profit with them , and it's a way to make them trendy . project manager: Well th those fifty million don't don't se sells itself so we have to make some extra effort like fronts . industrial designer: Well but th but the standard front will be just grey or something user interface: Yeah alright . Yeah well it has to it h it has to fit the the te television and D_V_D_ set we are going to sell , user interface: No a colour everyone accepts . project manager: so if they are black and black black and silver we'll make them black and silver so user interface: . user interface: project manager: If you have a a a television room for little children and you make a if if you buy a a pink front they'll they'll love it . Well our user interface you can maybe I don't know what your specific instructions will be , but probably about the precision of the buttons and and those kind of things and what buttons will have to be on the remote . industrial designer: yeah also the the look and feel of the the remote's also my task , yeah . user interface: What's the url or the website 'cause I didn't get marketing: Right . marketing: It's Yeah yeah yeah just if you start up your Internet Explorer project manager: Well it it it's user interface: Yeah . project manager: if you industrial designer: It's the the the start starting page user interface: Oh oh right oh well I didn't use it . user interface: project manager: Well we're going to back back into our rooms so user interface: Yes . user interface: Next meeting is in project manager: In thirty minutes , but I think it will be you will be warned through your laptop to get over here . user interface: Yeah alright it's it's handy to know project manager: I'll have to restore my my desktop industrial designer: Very handy to know . project manager: Ma industrial designer: W marketing: Oh user interface: S project manager: W that was a nice meeting <doc-sep> I did took the minutes from the first meeting and I'll show them to you in a moment . I know each of you have a presentation and in thinking about the forty minutes , I thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there's I happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some decision on what functions it will have . and after the meeting there'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . I opened the meeting , the product was developed and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . and it had some implications , the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the Japanese . And we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting Anybody have any questions on those minutes ? Are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'Kay . industrial designer: I think so , project manager: Did I miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . I'm afraid I incorporated that when I said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of team building of of making the pictures , marketing: Okay , I accept the minutes . One of the the biggest issues I found about from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these remote controls and I think that this is an opportunity to really take Real Reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . So my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . some of the research in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . And if we devote some energy into this , I think the recent productions of Real Reaction , the I go everywhere power and the high definition D_V_D_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , I think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . And in fact I think the high definition D_V_D_ players and all of this will come along in the will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . fifty percent I think of all these numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . And eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of television , D_V_D_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: Could can I ask where these figures come from , is this market research we've marketing: it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: Now in between , as the Project Manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for T_V_ with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . Well I think we can I I think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the Real Reaction brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly don't advertise for the I go everywhere line . marketing: Now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and luck lucky for us have the cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . Very interesting , I I leave this up to the group to decide if we wanna use this if and you know , the the designers , project manager: . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: Is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: Well , I I I think especially in terms of growth , I think this would be a very smart group to target . s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and with the technologies improving , if we can get these project manager: In real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: Yeah . But would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did I know that it was it was an project manager: . industrial designer: marketing: I don't know if speech recognition should be should be included , project manager: . marketing: but I think it's an interesting I think that maybe shows more about being open to technology . user interface: it definitely needs a lot more research marketing: Shall I go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: How d I'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . I expect an Industrial Designer should know that , but if we're aiming to to build this thing for twelve Euros fifty , is that a lot or a little ? marketing: Exactly . I I I did not receive any information on that , but I think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what's in the pipeline is very very important , because there is a question about do you want an L_C_D_ screen and and that wasn't responded to , but some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something perhaps you all have seen the Osbournes where Ozzy Osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a a small tray . marketing: You know , project manager: marketing: it's I a and I think , you know industrial designer: He must be w one of a s small population . But I think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and they'll be project manager: But we're not looking at whether they're early adopters on that screen , marketing: . I yes , and I'm making and I'm making the the leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . marketing: I think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is up to the designers . industrial designer: And if you want it to go into slide show mode , it's that little button there . user interface: Can I not just do each one in order ? industrial designer: I you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: There we are . user interface: That ? industrial designer: Left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . well I think first off , basically I do agree with what Sarah has defined as as your personal preferences,yeah . And what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . If we can build on this with the speech recognition , that's not something I'd thought about at all , but it's also something we can discuss . user interface: and and I presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or D_V_D_ remote control , if this is only gonna be a , you know , satellite , cable , T_V_ remote control . It also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you'd expect from a , you know , like a Sky or cable remote control project manager: . but I think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , I don't think we need them at all . I think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and I think an an enter function where you can access it's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . user interface: So it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than than actual buttons project manager: Okay . user interface: o I was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and a menu that you can access . user interface: But we could go back to the pictures of the , what're they called ? The pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: Or if user interface: but maybe should hear what Kate has to say first . marketing: Maybe afterwards we could do a whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: I think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: user interface: Definitely less cluttered and but still it's project manager: It's there user interface: Sorry project manager: but it's user interface: I was just I'll just resume something else I was gonna say . user interface: I I I really think we need to not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . Okay , now I wanna bring us down to earth again I'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . basically I've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if I had a design team , I would've been discussing my ideas with 'em . But the the net result is that I've come up with a first cut for the working design that I'd like to discuss with you . And the the basic components we've got to build in for our twelve Euros fifty are an energy source , the user interface and which will in incorporate an integrated circuit that actually composes the message based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . I would have have hoped to do you a pretty PowerPoint slide of my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you'll bear with me I'll do it on the whiteboard . And the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . But those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? What do the buttons look like ? what does it feel like ? That's where the user interface is really coming into its own . project manager: The technical end is what's actually gonna be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . For example the battery energy source or what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? is there any because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for D_V_D_s , movies , whatever . does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: Well I may be wrong here , but I'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . industrial designer: that's that's , you know , that's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that's why I'm a bit concerned . I like the idea of speech recognition , that's a great idea , but I'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gonna need to hit . marketing: Do we have ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: Isn't that your job ? marketing: Because then project manager: Oh . industrial designer: I'm I'm I'm hoping that my personal coach is gonna give me some advice on that , if you're asking me , marketing: I I don't believe I know , . industrial designer: but marketing: Be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: It does it does seem as if we're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: Inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . user interface: Although what what suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two A_A_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . Could it be possible to have , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an M_P_ three player does ? With that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . user interface: You could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you don't have to worry with replacing A_A_ batteries , marketing: Well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . marketing: Yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: And it's not stuck down the back of the sofa . user interface: But then again I d I don't know if this is within our price range or not . industrial designer: Well I think that's a very interesting idea , but I'm not a very good industrial designer and I don't know much about what these things cost . industrial designer: Well solar may not be so good when you're watching T_V_ in the night , marketing: Yeah , yeah . user interface: Well it is just so annoying how marketing: Depen project manager: It would have to sor store up the energy marketing: . user interface: No , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: - user interface: but for long-term use it'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky A_A_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: user interface: and industrial designer: So do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: Definitely , project manager: . marketing: 'cause I'm thinking in terms of the loss and breakage of remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a a home , a a nest , a place to live , user interface: . marketing: So if you can dock it , you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: And the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . project manager: Are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? Pretty much , so that we'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: Well I I brought up some exactly , but I think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: . industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: You know , industrial designer: I was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because I ag I agree that there there're people with how can I put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: I I s usually put more money than brains . industrial designer: but Bu but what I was gonna say was , although they they may be buying , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: Oh oh oh I'll make a note of that , Kate . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying T_V_ remote controls ? Because they probably live in a household that has a T_V_ if they're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: Yeah . marketing: It might be good to know who , you know , who's actually buying televisions and are we in a s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: . I think we've got a big hill to climb here , haven't we ? we've gotta persuade people who've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . project manager: Or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? We sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . project manager: What would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: Yeah , and and some of our D_V_D_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . user interface: We're not gonna get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: Probably not . Our functions , we've so far decided , I think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . It has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wanna be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . marketing: Do we need let me project manager: Is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: Br actually , industrial designer: industrial designer: Do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: Throw some light on that . project manager: actually we're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: Okay , I I my only comment is I think maybe we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . Again , you know , project manager: Is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: Sorry , project manager: Would that industrial designer: H how does that work ? user interface: I was miles away . industrial designer: How so so how does that work , user interface: I was re I was reading the chart to be honest . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wanna press enter ? marketing: if you're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter project manager: Then you'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you've well I was thinking maybe you to turn it off you'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: Okay , yep , marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: It's not getting a bit complicated ? Could granny do this , marketing: Well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: Or y yeah . user interface: Who's got an iPod then ? industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , project manager: . Anyway , that was the only comment about some of the the decisions people have made , what's most important . user interface: Yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , I would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: Exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . user interface: I I wouldn't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: Yeah . project manager: I guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . project manager: As you said , you know , don't make it too hard for the granny . project manager: so are we agreed then of those things ? And let's go back to agenda marketing: D project manager: and hook me up . industrial designer: How do you do that ? How do you make it do both ? project manager: you have to keep doing the financi the the F_N_ and F_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: Ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . will be completed q questionnaire , then we'll have some time for individual work to continue our research and I'll put some minutes of this meeting together . your individual assignments are for Kate to do the components , for you , Steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . and you'd mentioned I I was just gonna say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: Okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a T_V_ , just to keep myself project manager: the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: So we're still in meeting , aren't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: Yeah , I think I've project manager: it's only to be for a T_V_ and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan marketing: Okay . Sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: It doesn't tell me

The team discussed the cost and difficulty of the working design, with the Industrial Designer believing that it would not involve specialized technologies. However, the User Interface pointed out that the technical functions should be based on user requirements. After deliberation, the team agreed that the remote control should be designed for novice users. The Project Manager suggested reviewing market research results and new requirements from Marketing, which clarified the design direction. The team agreed to include simple functions and certain large buttons. Despite their brilliant ideas, the group realized that the remote control they designed had high quality but low acceptance. Marketing proposed re-envisioning the remote control based on menu functionality, current technology, and interaction with other tools. They suggested discarding unnecessary buttons and incorporating speech recognition technology. User Interface argued for discarding the existing standard and keeping only basic and user-friendly functions like channel selection, volume, and enter key. They also discussed the conflicts between technology and price, considering the use of speech recognition and solar energy. Marketing suggested making the remote control a dock for placement. The team identified compatibility, appearance, and proper button design as desired features for the new TV remote controls.

Summarize the discussion on the technical functions, evaluation criteria, menu function and interaction with other tools, power source, and desired features of the remote control.

Then I'm going to talk about the project management , what I'm going to do , and , of course , I'm doing the project management and secretary both , okay , to take the minutes of the meeting . And I have come up with the management come with the new proposal , okay , and I have to discuss a few points on this . the one is the teletext becomes outmoded , okay because if because of the computer systems and the new technology . So we don't need to consider really about the teletext all in our new project design . And the third point , it's very very important to establish our marketing or corporate image , okay , with this new project or new product . So I will invite Agnes , can you go to the third slide ? user interface: No , this is the third slide . user interface: Do you want the mouse , or do you want me to industrial designer: I'll do the notes . project manager: industrial designer: So well I I figured we should identify some user requirements , and from my experience , I wanna , and from research I did , the the device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button , you can't can't have like waffling on this point , you know . project manager: industrial designer: Really have It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it . So , I also , since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product , thought we better look at things that are popular and ex go beyond those , and , as I said in the first meeting , and then we might wanna talk eventually about the materials that are appropriate to use in in the construction , especially in the the the outside of the product project manager: industrial designer: so that it gives the appearance , and it is reliable , and so forth . I did a little history on the the remote controls and when they were invented and so forth , so , I guess this guy Zenith created the Flashmatic , which I kinda like the idea , 'cause it made me think of maybe the remote control made a big flash when you turn the T_V_ on and off , that might be interesting . And so it was highly directional flash light that you could turn the picture on and off , and the sound on and off , and change channels c so I think those are still requirements we have today , fifty years later . industrial designer: And it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was sensitive to the sun , so that it would get would start off by the you'd get it would easily cause problems . So , I in addition to looking at the the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where they represent examples that are available today which I think the one in the middle is r really something to keep in mind . And it would y you'd you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else . And since I'm not really Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide . But I just took some different schematics and I put them into this , and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board . So , personal preferences , user interface: industrial designer: I think we could I I'm really thinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference . user interface: industrial designer: So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it . I think it could either be you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and kind of blend in with things , so you didn't have to have a problem with the th the decoration of the of the user's home . I think it needs to be waterproof , because sometimes they fall into cups project manager: industrial designer: and , you know , it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that . if you mi one of one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's done its job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing on the remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue . So , marketing: industrial designer: that's those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation . project manager: Yeah , let me interrupt you if you can add other facility , other feature , like unbreakable . project manager: Okay , because especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids , user interface: project manager: okay , and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and . Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your fabric whatever in your outline design okay , with unbreakable , okay , I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong . project manager: Okay , thank you Christine , and any questions or clarifications , or any discussion on the functional design ? user interface: Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ? 'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plastic would be harder , industrial designer: . user interface: whereas having something like , I dunno , steel or titanium isn't really economically viable . industrial designer: No , I haven't really I wanted feedback , I think we need to rate rank these , but we'll see what your personal preferences are and your thoughts . industrial designer: you know , nobody told me how mu what our financial objective is , so project manager: Yeah so industrial designer: It'd be hard to inflate something ou made out of titanium though . project manager: Yeah the the I'm sorry because the last meeting we supposed to discuss about the financial thing . marketing: I don't know , project manager: Okay , marketing: I think verbally we can we can pretty much sell . project manager: I will I will send you a mail , okay ? The project may be the the project aim , okay . Okay , that maybe Eddie will talk to you about how much the price and what's how much its cost for the manufacturing and how much it's going to be we sell in the market . This remote control , okay , it can be for like universal , to use for any T_V_ . Okay , and it will be slim , okay , and industrial designer: Not fat ? project manager: Not fat . But let's try it , okay , with the different the designs , okay , the functional designs . project manager: Okay ? So any other questions ? marketing: from her side , I don't think there's too many more questions . Thank you Christine for time being , marketing: If you can come to the project manager: so then Ed , so can you tell about marketing: Okay , from the marketing yeah , from the marketing side , just to to give an idea what the management is looking for , I was looking for a a remote control to have a s user interface: S 'scuse me for one sec . marketing: I have a sales price of twenty-five Euro , with a production price of twelve and a half Euro . For what I think from what we're trying to find , we're tr we're looking for , I don't think that price is exactly in the market . marketing: I'll explain myself here now in the sense that in a in the recent surveys , from the ages fr from fifteen to thirty-five , eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy . project manager: marketing: Twenty-five Euros , that's that's a preson reasonable price . Now if we're gonna take a risk , and push this up a bit , make it more expensive , project manager: Yep . But , I think there's one other thing interesting two things that are interesting is that from the fifteen to thirty-five year-old group , which always spends more money on trendy new things , speech recognition is requested . marketing: And we're talking between seventy-five to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote . That might be a possibility , even though it costs more , to be the first on the market to produce this . industrial designer: marketing: So maybe one word speech recognition commands , say remote , and there's a beep beep beep , and they can find it through , you know , ten tons of newspapers , magazines , whatever you have at home . project manager: marketing: But , in the cost that the management is looking for , that's not gonna be possible . But if it's trendy , if it's fancy , it's got some colour to it , if it's very easy easy to use , if it's got simple remote speech remote control , like I said , louder , softer , change channel , on , off , remote , it goes beep beep , I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset 'cause I can't turn the T_V_ on . So we're gonna have to look at it in a in this global idea , with the ideas of the industrial design . So what do you think about the design ? Do you think you can make it or industrial designer: D I'm sorry ? project manager: What do you think about the design , what he was talking about of the speech recognition ? marketing: Speech recognition . industrial designer: So might we can perhaps do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process , it could reduce th th the overall cost . And so , maybe what we'll have to do is add something where you can recharge it wirelessly so that y you know sen send power to it . So or maybe set it out in the sun and it , you know , gets , from the light , a a solar cell inside there user interface: . user interface: It seems also like with the speech recognition , yeah , it's a great feature , but if you're watching T_V_ , there's a lot of ambient sound , and it's words . It's actual speech , so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the T_V_ speech , and the the user's speech . user interface: But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing , all of a sudden , you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies , because they've triggered the remote control and it's turned off your T_V_ . So , I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems , then yeah , it'd be a really good marketing gimmick . marketing: Because tha w with speech recognition th I'm not that good at that idea user interface: marketing: but th if it's a one-word recognition , 'cause I know with telephones and cars and things I've seen in the States , user interface: Yeah . marketing: Because I think s with speech recognition , if the the remote or like the telephone it has a exact word that it has to hear . If somebody's speaking on the se the television , they're not gonna stop and say remote , user interface: No , I think it's a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements . No because I this is this is years ago in the United States where we're driving down and he said call home , and the telephone called immediately user interface: Yeah . project manager: Well , what I can suggest to you , Christine , okay , if you need some the technical feedback , or some training , okay , about this facility , especially for the speech recognition , I can recommend you some companies like Intel or I_B_M_ , okay , because they're already in this speech recognition part , okay . Okay , and if you want , I can coordinate , okay , to get some information , okay , and you can let me know , okay , so what kind of the details you require okay , to add this feature in this project . And we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop , apart from what today . marketing: From from your side , you're gonna have to go back the management and s be more s precise . marketing: a risk , take a risk on the market ? Something that's gonna cost more , but could very easily s make a boom in the market ? project manager: Yes . project manager: but end of the day , you're the sales guy , so I will come back and sit on your head because you are going to give your sales projection , marketing: user interface: project manager: okay . It's of course it's good to tell the management how much it's cost us marketing: And , so I don't mind to convince , okay , the management to spend some more money on the project , okay , if you can make out of marketing: Obviously . project manager: Yes , okay I don't mind to convince the the management , user interface: project manager: okay . project manager: The management says , okay , so they they don't want certain facilities , which it's already worked , okay , they want something new , okay . I think like speech recognit definitely they will agree , I don't think they'll say no for that , okay . So if you have any new ideas , okay , for your you can always come up and you can tell me if you need any s special , okay , coordination , okay , between any technical companies , which you can hide their technology backup , okay , for your functional design or technical design , okay , then I am ready to do that . And what's your comments about user interface: well , maybe if I go through my presentation , you can sort of see what the user perspective is , and how it ties into the other two comments . So , basically , the method that we usually use in the user interface design is that we need to look at what people like and what people don't like about existing products . And then , what the good ideas are , and what the bad ideas are , and why they're bad and good , which isn't always as obvious . We seem to have intuitions about why things are good or things are bad , but when you look , technically , at how it works , sometimes that's not the case . Then we need to decide what functionalities we really want to keep , 'cause that'll feed into both Ed's work and Christine's work . and then what the remote control should look like , obviously , once we've got a good idea of what the functionalities are . So , in terms of the functionalities that we need , you obviously need to be able to turn the T_V_ on and off . You need to be able to control the volume and then control any menus on the T_V_ to regulate contrast or whatever . So , the problems that people have expressed is that there's too many buttons on remote controls , in general . often , you need to know specific button sequences to get certain functionalities done , which you don't necessarily always remember , especially if it's a functionality that you don't use very often . So , here we've got two examples where here on the left-hand side , you can see a remote control that has lots and lots of buttons . they're hard to see , and okay , they're labelled , but the labels don't necessarily tell you too much . Whereas , on the other side , you have a much simpler remote control that I think basically has the minimum functionalities that are needed . So , I would be inclined to go sort of towards this , in terms of design , rather than this . And if there's specific functionalities that require more buttons , then we can figure out how to do it with existing buttons . So my personal preferences are to keep the number of buttons to a limit , or to a minimum , sorry , make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed , so like the on button being really obvious one , the channel changing and the volume , and to keep the design basically sleek and simple . so , that's pretty much it , an I don't know if you guys have any questions or industrial designer: Oh , it's , seems very understandable . industrial designer: and the only thing that I saw missing from your your research that we found was this ability to find the doggone thing when you need it . That's why we're all here at the table , so that if we think of it and our research indicates certain things and w we it's complementary . industrial designer: I also think that th f the the feel of it is , when you hold it , is something that was expressed more in in in in my design user interface: industrial designer: and that's logical and normal 'cause those are the parameters that an Industrial Designer's more thinking about , th th the look and the feel , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and , you're user interface: Oh , that's definitely a very important factor , especially to users who are gonna be buying the thing and then using it almost on an daily basis in a lot of cases , I think . project manager: So for anybody need any help , for time being , on this subjects , okay , so please come back to me , user interface: Oh project manager: and Christine , maybe I can try to help you to get some the technical the companies to help you for make a design slim , okay , and to add some features , like we are talking about , the speech recognition and all . user interface: Should we maybe make a decision about what features we actually want to include , project manager: Yeah . user interface: 'cause we've thrown a lot of features onto the table , but do we actually want to incorporate all of them , or have we missed anything ? marketing: . industrial designer: Do you wanna go back and look at the closing slide , maybe that would provide some guidance ? user interface: Sure . industrial designer: it says user interf so I'm supposed to do the components concept , supposed to work on the user interface concept , user interface: I think we should do as many features as start with all of them right now user interface: I thought industrial designer: and eliminate them later in the process , that's my suggestion . And I'll send you the the minutes of meet industrial designer: You can object if you want to user interface: No , I I'm just thinking in terms of time , marketing: She's objecting . No , I was just thinking is it really practical to start designing something with features that we're just gonna end up throwing away ? , it takes a lot of time and effort for everyone to consider different features , and s if we spend that time and effort on features that we're not gonna use , maybe it's better to spend it on the f thinking more about features that we actually do want , but industrial designer: I think we should take that as an action item for after the meeting , marketing: Oh th we s we still have user interface: guess industrial designer: 'cause w our meeting time has run out . project manager: Okay , what we'll do is now we'll take for lunch break , okay , then we can discuss furthermore , okay , with our areas , and then we will come back again in the in the next meeting . So thanks for coming and I'll send you minutes of meeting , and please put your all information in the sharing folder so everybody can share the information <doc-sep>I think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say the requirements that we've set out . Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on a small joystick , L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . So we'll just crack on , like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible . industrial designer: I'll just project manager: This meeting is the conceptual design phase and is Sorry about this . And is to cover things like what the parts might be made of , can we outsource these from elsewhere , will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: I have a presentation I just saved it in the the folder . joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it , could be plastic w or rubber even as well . can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else a solar powered one . project manager: the kinetic one , we've 'cause that's the ones where like you the movement causes it . project manager: the bat the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power , would be my one query . project manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you'd say ? industrial designer: . one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . the materials are tha there as you can see , but you can't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: Titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: which would be Yeah , marketing: Is it not also it's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . , I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: . project manager: could you maybe draw something ? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect , it's just 'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two . Well for a curved , well I was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . industrial designer: which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but you can't have it in titanium , which is a nice material . industrial designer: and for the buttons , it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s . but it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive . if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve control and it's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . But you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: Yeah . So , depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display . project manager: do you have any idea so far , like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_ , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? Or ? marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip . Yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah i project manager: Okay , should I go on , or go back ? industrial designer: marketing: if we only have twelve Pounds fifty , twelve Euros , not even twelve Pounds . Twelve Euros , what's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine Pounds ? project manager: Well we'd also be relying on the the bulk buying in producement and such . If you go to the one before that so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_ . the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then it'll send it to the tr the amplifier . industrial designer: And then the next slide just shows how the copper wires interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , to get sent to the chip . So in the information that you've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks ? industrial designer: I think we can do it if we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . project manager: I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm I don't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber for reasons I'll go into in more detail . Now I'm gonna have to work between the the slides and the and the white board project manager: Yeah . I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving various ideas from from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today . so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes , ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . and try and f and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on , so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . and what we've basically decided on was the the the joy the joystick , two function buttons and the L_C_D_ , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . I don't actually think we need the the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels , so if there's something f and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: Ah , okay . user interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then your V_C_ and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player . You must have two two modes , basic mode , where the joystick's left right left right for channels , up down for volume , and the and the menu mode for further functions . now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design , it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . project manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: basi basically what I basically what the what be having , I would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you're handing it from a lef left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the the L_C_ the L_C_D_ and the The joystick would be in the right place . And also this is a rather nicer de design gimmick that the the you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: Okay . project manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say , I guess . The Assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , hol holding the remote , the the joystick unit should rest over the the joint of the f of the four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb . and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for left or right handed users . You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . You just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . , and that marketing: Is this the joystick ? user interface: Th this part here is the joystick . And you then have , at the at the bottom , the L_C_D_ , and this would need to be articulated as well . And again , this part could be rotated , so it can So so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . So the t the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . And you could download programs for it from for T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers . though you i it would be necessary to have have a m have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet . We compared whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . And then we we research fashion trends in Europe , what's what's the new black , project manager: Okay . we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that's a bonus , but they don't care so much , you know . People want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . And easy to use , it it just so happens that from the second point to the third point is twice as important the second point is twice as important as the third point . People want it I is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . The fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . project manager: marketing: But I I see I come on to that in the next in the next slide . If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it's spongy , then can I skip the rest ? industrial designer: Oh yeah , I forgot to mention that . marketing: So so my personal opinion ? we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool , that's that's different , you know , that's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it's the up to the interface guy . So if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . It could be something like , I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do . I think maybe they were I don't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: So if we want something strong and sturdy , I say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it doesn't matter , it's spongy material , it's not gonna break , you know . I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable . So how do things fit it ? And if we are gonna use spongy , we can say it's long lasting , you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . So just to summarise , people want stuff that's cool , that's that looks like it's cool , and if it is cool then that's a bonus doesn't have to be people like fruit and veg . If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . So , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . project manager: Well , I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway . You always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway . project manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so I don't exactly what cost would be incurred . I can see your point about the number keypad , but I've I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: project manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of boxes as well having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: Yeah , actually if you've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it's you know if you're trying to remember what , you know , what number's the discovery channel or whatever . user interface: But if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components , say something like lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most small hand held devices now . Though I'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: Yeah , I I would say definitely , the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . So project manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? I can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in the structure , do you think ? user interface: . industrial designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . marketing: user interface: if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . If you then have a sort of outer skin of flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and I think would look rather co mi rather cool . my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but . industrial designer: project manager: However , one interesting point is , I don't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: It's an certainly a different colour from your average user interface: Make it harder to lose , as well . project manager: Was there anything in your research marketing: The noise for when you lose the banana , f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: I th if it I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , I I don't know . user interface: Well basi basically the for f for e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that the T_V_ responds to . user interface: So usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the remote , and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your ma find your manufacturer marketing: marketing: That's because televisions , they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . But if we had some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_ user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: booklet . This person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: Yeah . project manager: Doesn't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that's right , yeah . marketing: and it's user interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to to actually purchasing it , so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about . user interface: If you if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . project manager: Okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage . I think we've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of rubber and such , so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . So for example , I'll just start at the top , you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it'll be hard not to , obviously . The user interface design , They're kind of it looks they're the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: . project manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , I would say . but then again , the the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . So and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . marketing: Yeah , you see I don't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . project manager: I I think we'd be yeah , no , it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . project manager: so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar . project manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? marketing: Okay , sure . At this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . project manager: the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that's stylish , so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: And it's stylish . project manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then , they've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . project manager: Although of course at twenty five Euros , I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the device . U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . project manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming industrial designer: Oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_ , or are we gonna project manager: It's just for T_V_ , but for marketing: Different . project manager: programming it to use your T_V_ , you might hook it up to the P_C_ . project manager: I'm not sure , but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive . user interface: Yeah , marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something . marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . The other thing it it would need to ha it would need to have some sort of on board memory anyway . user interface: f for one for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be although you know , it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be o ought to be customisable and marketing: Different languages , different skins and stuff like that . How how how you want say the the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels . I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? So . marketing: It would make sense if you could project manager: and we'd better be careful about the time as well . project manager: So user interface: Where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: they're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: Yeah . user interface: I having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wanna keep the company brand as well , user interface: project manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on . Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . I was like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the on the top function button <doc-sep>project manager: No on the desktop you'll find you should find that there's a project documents link . We introduced ourselves , discussed the possibility of a macro facility , interac interacting the T_V_ a bit more , mentioning of bar-code , joystick for user manipulation , and ergonomics of the remote control as well . also key is the corporate image should stay recognisable , f your colour and slogan of course is down at the bottom there . Just to say quickly I would have thought that only being used for a television the macro facility may now not be required . I'd like to if possible hear from our Marketing Expert first , to help us gain an idea of where we're going to go . marketing: Okay , so we did some research , we asked one hundred people their opinions on remote controls . We asked some open ended questions , just , what are your opinions on the remote control , got a lot of re responses , and we asked some very specific questions , and we got a lot of good feedback . Please bear in mind this is only a hundred people , so even when the groups are divided into fifteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , there's only maybe ten people fifteen people in each group . I often lose my remote control , the back of the couch , some place , and even if it's not lost permanently , it takes me a few minutes to find it . I remember trying to load a D_V_D_ player recently , and there were so many buttons , it took me I don't know maybe ten minutes to to go through each button , 'cause you have to press the shift button to access the yellow buttons , you know there's just a lot of stuff that no one really uses . I've seen some remote controls that are big , they have a lot of buttons , you have to hold down more than one key at one time to do something , they're just not great to use . Between the age of fifteen and twenty five , most people would be willing to pay extra for voice recognition software . Most people'd be willing to pay for that most people want remote controls to be pretty , they want it to be fancy , th they they want it to be different , everybody has a white remote control with black buttons , and a red button and a green button , not everybody wants that . It's a bit sketchy at some times , you're not gonna get good always accurate results , but for a very fixed number of words , you know you have , how many different words can you have for a remote control , up , down , left , right , channel five , channel seven , you know , how many , you can't have that many words . But after a while people may wanna return it , because if you have to to say som most people use a remote control for switching to channels , and they say they do that about ninety eight percent of the time . Using the remote control , ninety eight percent of the time for changing channels , and that's for flickering through channels . So if you have to say up , up , up , up , if you have to do that all the time , then people might get a bit fed up with that and they may return it . However , oh , because the voice recognition software exists already , there's no need to spend money on research and development , but this does mean the need for microphones in the in the remote control , which is an unusual feature in my opinion . But if we do have the voice recognition thing , there's a lot of stuff that you can get rid of . Either you have voice recognition by itself , which I think is a bit impractical for like night time if you wanna be watching television and you wanna be quiet , or I don't know you have a visitor coming round and the remote's only trained for you , it's a bit impractical to have just voice recognition by itself . But imagine you got rid of the regular remote part , then you can design the remote to look any way you want it to look , because there are no restrictions on physical size , or shape , it it could be as fancy as you want it to be , you know , it could be like a lollipop or something like that , something weird like that . marketing: So we have the three birds , we have the design , that we have the the fancy bit , right , the voice recognition's fancy , it's cool , it's different , it's radical , so , and then we have an extra bit I don't remember so I'm pretty sure people will buy the remote , but is it practical to have a voice recognition system in a remote control , I think is a big question . , will people will people be willing to wait for the the period that it'll take to train the remote , 'cause I think it will the remote will get better over time with the same user user , but for the first week or for the first two weeks are you willing to wait , are you willing to have a bad remote control . And what if you have visitors come round , they stay the night , they wanna use the T_V_ , they can't use the remote because they speak differently to you . , will people return the remote control , I think a lot of young people will buy the remote control , if they have the money , you know , so , project manager: If you could marketing: do our audience have the money , but would they return it after a while because it's not as fast as pressing a button , it's not a practical . project manager: sor marketing: I think it's cool , project manager: if you could speed it up a bit , yeah . project manager: you've got your presentation now , industrial designer: How did where did user interface: Yeah , it's in the it's in the folder project manager: is it on the industrial designer: where did you get all your in information ? user interface: yeah . user interface: Okay , this is a brief run through of the of the technical functions of the remote . As is the the the presentation is already slightly obsolete because I had in mind something that would be i be aimed at controlling multiple devices but there's still stuff of relevance , so project manager: Okay . I've looked at looked at a num couple of other remote control models just for an idea of basic design principles . and wasn't really satisfied by what I saw I have to say so this is more sort of springboard for how these could be improved on . basically the job of the device is to send commands to an appliance , in this case the television set . On the one hand and this this particularly relates to its sort of earliest models where with you know i so so many buttons on it so about the size of the television set . And most of these functions are not going to be used , it creates a rather user unfriendly interface . And on the other hand there's a user focused approach that pares things down to just what what is most likely to get used . With a and a and of course there is a certain amount of sort of loss of function here obviously , but mostly that's relatively peripheral functions . And so you go for something that's fairly intuitive to use , and well f the for the most part for T_V_ remote it's tha that would be channel control and volume . and if you if you if you are wanting to incorporate control of a D_V_ D_V_D_ or V_C_R_ presumably into that then there's a play , pause , stop , rewind , fast-forward , record , so forth . but the pro I think the problem with a lot of the sort of user focused designs that are about is that they sort of make assumptions in advance about what what a given user's going to want mo want to do from want it to do most . So , something that's something that is more programmable , that perh perhaps has the full range of functions available to it but you can then specify yourself what you're most likely to want . so that those are then immediately accessible through fairly minimal number of controls , I liked Ebenezer's idea of including a joystick in that and possibly a sort of fairly minimal number of sort of function buttons , and have a disp you then have some sort of basic display on it so that if you're sort of cha changing from different modes for the device it'll tell you just exactly what you know each direction of the of the joystick's going to do or wha or what each function button's going to do . , this is actually a again slightly taking inspiration off of games controllers , you know the Playstation control where you have four basic function buttons marketing: . user interface: that are just marked with distinctive geometrical shapes but the and then dependent on what you're doing with it what game and so on those those functions are then sort of further specified . Click to save in where do I have to save it ? project manager: If you look on the desktop you'll find that there's a link to the project folder , or project documents . project manager: Are you finding it okay or ? industrial designer: I'm just closing it now . marketing: Well like if you go to one , whichever one you were working industrial designer: that's it there , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . industrial designer: right I'm responsible for working design , this is basically the inside going on of the the remote control . So we have the energy source , we have the user interface , this this is what I've seen . the sender will push the button , the chip will respond , and then the dig digital signal is sent to the T_V_ . So , if you go to next slide , you'll see you'll see what do we need on the user interface . Do we need many buttons , or do we need l many light bulbs that could be easier to to realise which appliances are on or not . , or would that take too much power , would we need more components in there to supply the power ? , the joystick is another thing , if we were gonna add that , there'd be more components to deal with that . industrial designer: so we need to I dunno exactly what That's the design of the the the layout of the electronic design , obviously there'll be more details once we've decided what we're putting on the user interface . marketing: industrial designer: I just used the it was a mess , I was just putting adding it together at the end there . industrial designer: so you have the energy source obviously connected to the chip , and the user interface obviously contains everything . You have the switch turn it on , infrared bulb , will contact the T_V_ and will have whatever device or D_V_D_ player , the bulb will turn on to say it's on . , so do we need on the control different buttons to decide , or different light bulbs , would it be easier ? , I dunno what we should decide on that . So , we've had some stuff put forward , along with the new user requirements , we've had a lot of kind of input I'd say so far . The power required , and the ability to the cost , it seems like for an embedded system , this could cause us issues . project manager: for example you see that there's fairly robust services on computers via via voice , I_B_M_ do drag and dictate , but these require a lot of memory marketing: voice activation could be an interesting idea but I think that our Ind Industrial Designer would probably upon some research say that it's maybe not feasible . project manager: however the idea of a joystick and then maybe an L_C_D_ which has been kind of put forward so far , it's almost like having a small T_ not T_V_ to say , but if you can control almost all of the functionality from the display , I don't know how much power an L_C_D_ would take , but it might be quite low ? marketing: . I industrial designer: L_C_D_ on the remote just telling you what's on , or , interactive L_C_D_ or project manager: Well literally if you can imagine the display maybe slightly larger than those on a a mobile phone , user interface: . project manager: something where you can read an an fair amount of information , traverse maybe quite a few menus , if we maybe used mobile phones as a good example , they usually incorporate they have the keypad , and then evr all the other functionality is usually associated inside by traversing around . and then we could have like say the common buttons as you say , volume control , changing channels user interface: . I I was thinking that the remote the sort of default functions for the joystick would be up and down for volume , left and right for channels . project manager: We industrial designer: Do you think that people will get mixed up , like , they'll be looking at this screen and that screen and then , you know , trying to get everything working , would it be a bit confusing ? user interface: I think probably for the first couple of hours of using it industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: though I w I would say that we could probably probably be required to mo most of the mobile phone displays you see these days are colour but we should probably try to stick to black and white . colour could be a sort of subsequent development but you know cost a bit of extra money f w w w w w once everyone's got the first , you know , oh colour's out , we'll have to replace it won't we . project manager: That would be my feeling as well , I think we could possibly create quite a useful user interface . now I don't marketing: Sure but the idea of a remote with a menu or and a joystick I think like I h if I was in the habit of buying remote controls then I would want one , project manager: sorry , go for it . marketing: but I think we don't have a specific audience , you know , like what is our target audience , what niche are niche are we trying to market and corner . You know , you know what I'm saying , like , for whom is this intended ? Everybody ? project manager: I think it could probably be aimed at most people who've used a mobile . project manager: if we are if we were to follow that avenue , we might be s you know we're kind of almost relying on their experience with a mobile phone I suppose . project manager: I imagine as well that the actual L_C_D_ and maybe to a certain extent the joystick as well would be for the additional functionality . Which maybe doesn't get used as often , maybe it makes it easy for them to figure out how to change the channels as in the frequencies and such for reprogramming it . project manager: and you can still have the main buttons that allow the people to turn the machine on and off , d up and down , it depends , maybe we have the fol the joystick as a separate one for the other functions then , that there's just a a small number of as you were saying buttons that have already been defined . And they can completely ignore most of the functionality which would be for say the o actual owner of the the T_V_ marketing: user interface: is that you you you then basically you can then basically put it for for T_ T_ for T_V_ remote alone , you could put there are like I say the the the main things people do with a T_V_ remote control is the volume and the channel . user interface: But but the but then o obviously if you know if you i if you wanted to access further functions i you you then get to sort of menu navigation . with things like ch with things like tuning and channels you know adjusting brightn brightness and fiddly things that no one really bothers with , most T_V_s these days actually have menus anyway so this would be a fairly rational way of integra project manager: if we are most of the of the replacement remote market is sort of remote control rationalisation . user interface: you want one wo y you want one that'll do the job of all of them . , if all you're replacing is one of the you know however many remotes you have in your living room , you know you still need separate remotes for everything else . user interface: I just think that possibly project manager: Well this is a requirement that we have to stick to I'm afraid , user interface: . project manager: So this is this is one of the solid ones that has to be obeyed , for now . project manager: So I can understand your point , and I would agree with you , but this is our design spec for now . user interface: Does that would that include access to say interactive functions on digital or cable ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: I would say so , yes , because then we have to be able to control the remote boxes , and that is a separate unit . I think that it I would say that the design spec we've been with is for the television only for now . Maybe we'll hear differently , but for now marketing: So the joystick is just for differentness . Try and sell it t sell it to them to supply with project manager: There is that possibility , yes . B However I don't know exactly where we'll be going with that , but it might not even be the avenue of the Marketing Expert , marketing: . It's just , the way I figure it , twelve point five Euros per unit , we have to sell at least like three million or something like that , project manager: marketing: not to account for all the the money we waste on remotes that no one buys , you know , like if we made a perf if we made a ks for every remote we made someone bought it , then we have to sell a lot of remote controls . marketing: We just Is this gonna be enough to to sell ? project manager: Well , something else that you brought up was the ability to lose a remote , which as you said you've done , in fact we've probably all done . project manager: I don't know if it's a gimmick or not , but have any of you ever seen those odd little key rings where if you whistle , it will beep and you tell you where it is . marketing: I had one of those , and my brother , and my dad , could have beat me up project manager: . project manager: well I was going to say clapping , digital telephones , for example , one unit has of course you have to have that base unit , somewhere where there's a button , but maybe it's a button that you attach to the T_V_ . project manager: Something which you when you press that , it would beep to give its location away , on the remote unit . project manager: And that way , because we're attaching what would be a small button to the T_V_ , again say what , it would be a small transmitter , watch battery type scenario I would say , or something that if it was problems enough you could actually even just I don't power that might be something that we could look into . Yeah , it's putting a lot on your shoulders there , so that could be something that separates us a bit from the market as well . Before we leave this meeting , it would be best to say this is what we're going this is the design we're gonna try and get , this is how we're gonna make ourselves look unique . project manager: Do we go for maybe a remote contro sorry , we're gonna go for a remote control obviously , do we go for a small joystick that would operate say changing channels , up and down , and then , what , another button that would say that it's now being used to manoeuvre round the L_C_D_ . project manager: We could use say the left and right for changing channels and the up and down for volume , user interface: For volume . project manager: and marketing: But we have a frequency of how what people use a remote control for most . marketing: power is used like once per hour , industrial designer: I marketing: channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight per hour , project manager: marketing: that's by far the biggest one , and then teletext , is still here , that's like fourteen , project manager: Vol Volume selection okay , yep , marketing: and volume selection . project manager: the teletext we're gambling with , and we're gonna say it's dead , the way of the dodo marketing: No , yeah , okay okay . Yeah , project manager: So we well , sorry , we could maybe even go as far as saying power button , small joystick , L_C_D_ , and then what maybe is it one more button to say that you're using the menu system , and with the possibility of pushing down on the joystick to say okay ? So we're having very very few buttons involved , user interface: Actually how project manager: but navigation around a menu for most things . user interface: Actually I would say maybe two two function buttons , the y we're now using the menus button and and an og and an okay button . certainly something I've found with the joystick on mo the joysticks on mobile phones is that a lot of the time th the device mistakes you trying to move it in one direction or the other for pushing down for okay . user interface: The o the o the other dis design constraint I think we should bear in mind is that people are you know very much used to using a remote control one handedly , so we need to make sure that e even with the joystick , you know something that can just sit comfortably in the palm of the hand and have the joystick just controlled by the thumb . Do we incorporate the idea of trying to f locate the remote control again via a beeping noise ? industrial designer: Yeah , think so . project manager: Do you mind looking ? marketing: I think because it's so small it might be an if we only have like two three buttons it might be essential to have to have that project manager: The ability to locate it again . project manager: So that would require a transmitter maybe attached to the T_V_ , just so that it says find me , and what , a basically a small microphone on the actual unit , can maybe hide it in the base . So so industrial designer: no ? project manager: Sorry ? user interface: a small speaker you mean . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Nah , you'd see it anyway , if you hear it . project manager: E us we might be better with the sound possibly we could maybe incorporate marketing: W those little key-rings have both , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: th e the true fact , considering the cost of an L_E_D_ , we could just incorporate it anyway . project manager: by the sounds of it , with what we're suggesting so far , your design the user interface is still quite open , you could go for quite an interesting design . project manager: Because we're only going to have a very few key and you've got you know a small L_C_D_ , joystick , e I think it leaves you open to a a potential wide range of shapes , something that can make it stand out slightly . project manager: if you could look into what we've suggested so far , the feasibility of small transmitter , and such , maybe if an L_C_D_ screen requires too much power , or such . Ebenezer , Marketing Expert marketing: Well I can give you the frequency , what people what options people use most often , I guess that's gonna be important in the ts defining the the software side of the interface , right . project manager: yeah if you could maybe as well see what people think about the idea of this minimalist approach that we've taken , where of a joystick to control the very basic functions , and then the idea of manipulating it like you would a mobile . project manager: I don't know how easy that will be within the time frame , marketing: Okay . project manager: Feel free to email me if you think that we've screwed something up and wanna get it rectified as soon as possible . industrial designer: So I should just look at the speaker , the speaker and an L_E_D_ . user interface: project manager: Speaker and L_E_D_ for locating , industrial designer: And marketing: Transmitter . , if we do end up trying to market this to television manufacturers then the then the transmitter could actually be built into the television . , and something that we can can easily be adopted at the last minute as well I'd say . project manager: The electronics could be s either placed externally or internally , makes no difference to the final product of the actual remote control , user interface: user interface: if it w if we get a major television manufacturer to say y oh yeah we'll have that , save us the bother , then that's you know vast amounts of sales . industrial designer: P project manager: Oh , one thing that we've almost not talked about at all , my apologies for that , user interface , we also need to maybe get the slogan in here , it's , industrial designer: Fashion . industrial designer: yeah , the slogan's we put the fashion in electronics , isn't it ? project manager: My apologies . , I think that's l almost the last minute thing industrial designer: 'S also look cool . project manager: So I'm not too concerned a that we haven't gone into depth about that . But it might be something you could consider when you're thinking about shapes ? user interface: project manager: In fact we might like to put a slogan on , and possibly the two R_s to signify the company <doc-sep>project manager: And you are ? In the project ? industrial designer: in the project I'm supposed to be the technic . user interface: My name is Hamed Getabdar , and I'm going to be Interface Designer in this project . project manager: So , so today we are doing a short meeting to present the project , so We are gooding we are going to present the tool we are we are going to use during all this project . We are talking about the project plan , and we are going to to discuss about st our first ideas and so on , and , yeah . So it should be , of course , new and original , and it should be trendy , and user friendly . So w it's we will try to do our best , and hopefully come with something very new and that people want to buy . So , So what's what are we going to do during this all this project ? So it's more like we are going to do inv individual work all in o in o our specialities and we are going to meet each other quite often to discuss and to find a good way . so now we are going to to get used t to to the tools we are going to use all during all this project . project manager: For example we can try to write what is our our favourite animal and write the f our favourite characteristics about it . Well sh should I draw the picture of the animal ? project manager: Yeah , yeah , you can draw the picture , of course . I had to first write it down because I am not absolutely sure if I can draw it , but ah . Can you recognise it as a bird ? project manager: marketing: industrial designer: Okay it's your turn to marketing: Okay , okay . project manager: user interface: marketing: I probably like cats the most because they're cuddly and furry and playful . C could we put it here , to make it as straight as possible ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Ah probably not . Should I clean ? marketing: user interface: Okay , I think like horses because they are strong and beautiful , so if I want to write it here , I think I can . industrial designer: You won't draw them , or ? project manager: You can draw it , if you want . I'm shameful project manager: marketing: Oh that's good , it's good . project manager: so we can start today to have a first idea of what we want to do what are our experiments with remote control , and any idea ? So , if you have some experience , good or bad , with remote controls you can share it and say what you f what is your idea . marketing: Well , from experience , I've had remote controls in the past that have had very they've had lots and lots of buttons and they've been very small , and it's been very hard to to to use , because there's so many buttons , and you know it's very hard to see which buttons do what , and the buttons are very small and very hard to press . and and normally you only every use , you know , on a T_V_ remote you only ever use , mostly , you know , f four or f six buttons . first would be that in current remote controls there is no back light , so if you are if you are playing with this in the dark room it's it's probably worth to to have something like back light . industrial designer: And maybe it could be also dependant on the the amount of of light in the room , so that if if it's in the day it doesn't need to be back lighted because it works on the battery , so . And the second thing , f second point from me would be that in a normal remote control there is there are two buttons for volume control . marketing: Is that because the of the discrete volume levels , or is that industrial designer: Yeah , but I can reach In one second I can mute it down , or or make a high volume . project manager: Are you not afraid that if you take your remote control you can move the slide and it could the the volume can go up very quickly marketing: Yeah . project manager: and it can industrial designer: If it drops to the floor then it starts to scream . project manager: Yeah , also if y when you take the the remote control , for example on the table , you take it and you push the button and everything is very loud , and industrial designer: Yeah , f It depends what what you feel about that . industrial designer: Yeah but we can we can think of these things afterwards , but if you have some more notes on that . project manager: Yeah so you can user interface: I Yeah , project manager: Do you have something ? user interface: just a simple experience . I I prefer remote control working with radio waves , because remote control working with infra-red rays you should you should you should keep it in a specific direction and then try it hard to tune . the the interface interface developer will work on the on the design of the remote control , start to to have new idea and industrial designer: Which i which is Hamed , ? project manager: read about industrial designer: Okay . project manager: So , marketing: project manager: For the User Interface Designer , which is Hamed , user interface: project manager: And for the Marketing Manager , I dunno , okay , which is Bob , you are going to try to to find the user requirements f for the remote control

The project manager's goal for the new remote control project was to design a trendy and user-friendly remote control that would be sold worldwide at a price of 25 Euros. Considering that remote controls are often played with or thrown by children, the project manager preferred the material used in the construction to be unbreakable, especially on the outside. Additionally, the remote control should be slim, simple, and universal, compatible with any kind of television. The idea of a joystick with an LCD menu screen was appreciated by the project manager, as it would consume low power and display a fair amount of information. Other functionalities would be accessed through the menu by traversing around. The project manager agreed with the user interface team that buttons should only be used for default functions like volume adjustment and channel flipping once a functional joystick was implemented. The marketing team initially did not understand the purpose of a programmable remote control, but the project manager explained that users would need to program specific commands into codes on the remote control if they used it for different devices. Furthermore, users could even create their own function names instead of searching for command codes on a computer.

Summarize the Project Manager's opinions on the goal, recommended features, joystick idea, and programmable remote control idea for the new remote control project.

professor b: So ne next week we 'll have , both Birger and , Mike Michael Michael Kleinschmidt and Birger Kollmeier will join us . professor b: and you 're you 're probably gonna go up in a couple three weeks or so ? When d when are you thinking of going up to , OGI ? phd d: Yeah , like , not next week but maybe the week after . So at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: - huh . So there was this conference call this morning , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: No , this I 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different Aurora people or just ? phd d: yeah . There were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , people were tired , I guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , included e including everything . W It 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the VAD at this point , phd d: . We probably should do that pretty soon so that we don't get used to it being a certain way . We have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency Well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . And i is the tandem network , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: no , I don't think so . phd d: It 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the MIPs , I think it fits , professor b: phd d: and I don't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in ROM , so it 's maybe not that expensive . But professor b: Ho - how much memory d ? H how many ? phd d: I d I d , I I don't kn remember exactly , but . I 'd like to see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . professor b: But I guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , t , server side . , mmm , and one of the trick was to , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the VAD network . , so apparently it looks better when , we use the silence probability from the VAD network professor b: Huh . So it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , that Sunil also tried , on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also . Yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , professor b: Could ? , I 'm I 'm really sorry . So there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: Yeah . phd d: And things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , given by the VAD network , professor b: Oh . phd d: professor b: The VAD network is ? phd d: Which is smaller , but maybe , So we have a network for the VAD which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . phd d: Maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we don't have infinite training data and professor b: We don't ? phd d: Well ! And so Well , things are not optimal professor b: Yeah . phd d: and Mmm grad e: Are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . , there was a p problem that we observed , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . phd d: Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I I I think , the number of insertions . professor b: So , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: professor b: Right ? Because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: And , if you have , f the distribution that you have from , f speech sounds is w sort of one source of knowledge . professor b: And this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . Well , there are other things that we should do but , it requires time and We have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better VAD . Of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and , but their noise estimation , professor b: back on the second stream , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . professor b: so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: But , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . So , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , might be good . Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th , maybe try to train , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the Aurora task and I think that people might , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: Right . Well , that 's something I would like to investigate further , but , I did , like , I did , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the SpeechDat - Car Italian and tried to transcribe them . phd d: but but still , what happens is is that , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: Yeah . , but what happens also is that if I listen to the , a re - synthesized version of the speech and I re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a LPC , filter professor b: Yeah . phd d: well , you can argue , that , that this is not speech , professor b: Yeah . But s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: Well , it 's phd d: eh professor b: There 's two problems there . , so so the first is that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . professor b: Right ? So it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . What if you had done analysis re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in . professor b: What would the percentage be then ? phd d: professor b: See , that 's the question . So , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , Let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . professor b: That would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . But professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve is pretty crummy " . professor b: So I I I 'm not sure I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . Well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , what I what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . And professor b: Well , you 're not doing the LPC phd d: in this case professor b: so so what if you did a phd d: Well , it 's not LPC , sure , professor b: What if you did LPC - twenty ? phd d: but LPC ? professor b: Twenty . professor b: So , all I 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , removal of pitch , you also are doing , a particular parameterization , phd d: professor b: so , let 's see , how would you do ? So , fo phd d: But that 's that 's what we do with our systems . Actually , we d we we don't , because we do we do , mel filter bank , for instance . Right ? phd d: Yeah , but is it that is it that different , ? professor b: I don't know what mel , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: I professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd a: Couldn't you t couldn't you , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: So , y , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with LPC - twelve it went to five . professor b: We were we were j It it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . professor b: And , i if you listen to them they still might not be very Even if you made something closer to what we 're gonna i it might not sound very good . professor b: and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , to understand than the LPC - twelve . So all I 'm saying is that the LPC - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: - huh . professor b: and is , It 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . And so it it isn't phd a: But professor b: But , I agree that it says that , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , a little bit , minimal . And that 's why I was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . So , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? If that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say " OK , it 's it 's in fact having , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , @ @ has the information that people can use , anyway . phd a: But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . professor b: Well , or it 's it 's phd a: Two two to six percent . professor b: Yeah , so It 's it 's one point four times , to , seven times the error , phd d: To f seven times , yeah . phd d: But but professor b: But that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: But the signal itself is like a mix of , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: So , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? Because phd a: In the LPC synthesis ? I think professor b: Yeah . professor b: So , and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . professor b: Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an LPC synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , periodic pulses . professor b: Right ? phd d: Yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . professor b: Well , it might be hard to do it phd d: So professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . professor b: But I 'm I 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what I would wanna test . professor b: I wan would wanna drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . professor b: And then that would tell you whether in fact it 's Cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . Maybe maybe , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . Evi professor b: But , other than that , I don't think it 's , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , that we 're throwing away that 's important . professor b: Right ? , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and phd d: If somebody was paying really close attention , you might get I would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . professor b: So it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . On the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . , while we 're still on Aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , Wall Street Journal things for it . They wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the Wall Street Journal , data . , I 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and I wrote a note to Joe asking him about it . , they on their web site they , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . So they 're professor b: This is on clean test set ? phd a: This is on clean on clean stuff . They they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , they don't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . professor b: What kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm the they 're showing word error rate . But on this one , I I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . professor b: phd a: So m I guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , they 're really high . professor b: I I I don't find that surpri phd a: So professor b: we W what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on , some of the higher error rates on , some of these w , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? What 's a ? phd d: . phd a: Correct ? phd d: And the baseline , eh phd a: Accuracy ? phd d: error rate . professor b: So if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: Yeah . professor b: Yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd d: The baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: Oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . professor b: It 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you can't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . , they 're I I 'm still waiting for them to release the , multi - CPU version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single CPU , which will take a really long time to run . But their s professor b: This is for the training ? phd a: I beli Yes , for the training also . So , as soon as they get that , then I 'll I 'll grab those too professor b: OK . I 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single CPU one , professor b: if the phd a: and I they they , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . So I can I can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . Is that about right you think ? phd d: we don't know yet , I I think . Did they say anything on the conference call about , how the Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be run ? Because I I thought I remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place , phd d: No . Well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: Oh , OK . phd d: and , professor b: Some phd d: frankly , I don't know because I d didn't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . But , did you do you still , get the mails ? You 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: I I don't get any mail about professor b: I have to say , there 's something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies doesn't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by Mississippi State . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . If you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . But phd d: You didn't get any answer from Joe ? phd a: I did , but Joe said , you know , " what you 're saying makes sense phd d: - huh . phd a: that 's th We had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gonna are you gonna run this data for different sites ? And , well , if if Mississippi State runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , But then he wasn't asked to run it for anybody . phd a: he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: So it could be , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , I think , that , one thing that we might wanna do The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . What could you do ? And , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , features . But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , @ @ the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: Nnn , the dist Yeah . professor b: But , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . But but , you know So because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we don't really know what the effect is at the other end . professor b: So , my thought was maybe , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a Gaussian shape than Gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . So , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of Gaussian when you take it 's log . And we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really can't change the word insertion penalty . But the other thing we could do is also we could , this this may not help us , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . We might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , " well , OK , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . " phd a: I wonder if it it might be possible to , simulate the back - end with some other system . So we we get our f front - end features , and then , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , you know , if we 're gonna take it to a root or to a power or something , we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . phd a: professor b: And just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , decides that that professor b: Well , we can probably use the real thing , can't we ? And then jus just , use it on a reduced test set or something . So , I I think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: professor b: And the knob that we use should , unfortunately , like I say , I don't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: grad e: Out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from Mississippi State ? phd a: w what do you mean when you say " what kind " ? grad e: Is it ? , is it like a Gaussian mixture model ? phd a: Yeah . phd a: It 's the same system that they use when they participate in the Hub - five evals . , they started off with , when they were building their system they were always comparing to HTK to make sure they were getting similar results . And so , it 's a Gaussian mixture system , professor b: Do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: I don't know . professor b: D Do you know what kind of tying they use ? Are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of Gaussians that they share across everything ? Or or if it 's ? phd a: Yeah , th I have I I I don't have it up here but I have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: OK . phd a: It 's some kind of a mixture of Gaussians and , clustering and , They 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . professor b: So the other , Aurora thing maybe is I I dunno if any of this is gonna come in in time to be relevant , but , we had talked about , Guenter playing around , over in Germany phd d: professor b: and and , @ @ , possibly coming up with something that would , fit in later . , I saw that other mail where he said that he , it wasn't going to work for him to do CVS . professor b: So if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: Yeah . I just saw the Eurospeech We we didn't talk about it at our meeting but I just saw the just read the paper . Someone , I forget the name , and and Ney , about histogram equalization ? Did you see that one ? phd d: it was a poster . It was something similar to n on - line normalization finally , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: Yeah . But it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? So they had like ten quantiles phd d: Yeah . professor b: So you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: N professor b: and then , So this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , I guess . And and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . professor b: You do this kind of piece - wise linear or , some kind of piece - wise approximation . They did a one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . And , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . And then they have s they have some kind of , a floor or something , grad e: . phd a: So is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: Or ? professor b: I think this i You know , I don't remember that . I Something like one per frequency band , professor b: One phd a: So , one histogram per frequency bin . phd a: So th professor b: And I don't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: Oh . phd d: and I didn't professor b: or whether it was FFT bins phd a: Huh . professor b: or phd a: And and that that , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: I don't remember that . And they do they said that they could do it for the test So you don't have to change the training . phd a: So they , Is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: I guess in pri Yeah . professor b: whether it was some , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . We 're sort of curious about , what are some things that are , u u , @ @ conceptually quite different from what we 've done . professor b: Cuz we you know , one thing that w that , Stephane and Sunil seemed to find , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . So , we 're not making any use of pitch , which again , might might be important , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . And and , And we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . So I guess , Guenter 's gonna play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: I dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: I don't have feedback from him , but professor b: Yeah . phd d: I guess he 's gonna , maybe professor b: Well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . professor b: So potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: - huh . So , why don't we just , I think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gonna be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . But , n not not so much in this meeting about Aurora , but but , maybe just , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with Michael . So Michael Kleinschmidt , who 's a PHD student from Germany , showed up this week . And he 's done some work using an auditory model of , human hearing , and using that f , to generate speech recognition features . And he did work back in Germany with , a toy recognition system using , isolated digit recognition as the task . , and he tried that on I think on some Aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . And he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a , a real speech recognition system . And , maybe I should say a little more about these features , although I don't understand them that well . And I 'm - I 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that isn't already modeled in something like , PLP . And then the second stage is , the most different thing , I think , from what we usually do . It 's , it computes features which are , based on sort of like based on diffe different w , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . So th he uses analysis functions called Gabor functions , which have a certain extent , in time and in frequency . And the idea is these are used to sample , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . And , that , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , in a a multi - scale way . You could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . So he 's interested in , Th - this is because it 's , there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , there are a lot of different possible basis functions . And so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . H What does he do to choose those ? grad c: The method he uses is kind of funny is , he starts with he has a set of M of them . , he and then he uses that to classify , he t he tries , using just M minus one of them . grad c: Whichever sub - vector , works the the best , I guess , he says the the fe feature that didn't use was the most useless feature , professor b: Y yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gonna randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: So it 's a professor b: So i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . grad e: It 's like a greedy professor b: But it 's but it 's , it 's there 's a lot number of things I like about it , let me just say . , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . But it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . The primary features , are in fact Yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , you know , PLP or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . We always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . , if you put in if you also include the RASTA in it i RASTA the filtering being done in the log domain has an AGC - like , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , auditory front - ends . , I would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . So , for instance , if you look at the LDA RASTA stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the LDA and they form filters out of it . But , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like " let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there " , and so forth . It 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: I it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: Yeah . , but it 's also , Hyn - when Hynek 's had people do this kind of LDA analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . I think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - D and that would be the closest to these Gabor function kind of things . And , the other thing that 's interesting the the , the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but I kinda like it . , eh , I remember people referring to it as old when I was playing with it twenty years ago , so I know it 's pretty old , called Stepwise Linear Discriminant Analysis in which you which I think it 's used in social sciences a lot . And what what Michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you don't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . So , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . , it still isn't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . professor b: And and and , the thing that I wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . professor b: so so that , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you don't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . And , And we 've also talked a little bit about , Shihab Shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , upward moving , energy and fre and frequency . But , I think we 're sorta gonna start off with what he , came here with and branch out branch out from there . grad e: As as we were talking about this I was thinking , whether there 's a relationship between , between Michael 's approach to , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . grad e: So , like , if we have , we have our we have our RASTA features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . grad e: Right ? And , and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . And then when you 're looking at the the , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , brain surgery by taking out , hidden units that don't really help at all . grad e: And this is k sorta like professor b: Right ? grad e: Yeah . professor b: y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , there 's a a , a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , nonlinearity that , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than Gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: grad c: professor b: so you could argue that in fact it But I I don't actually believe that argument because I know that , you can , computing features is useful , even though in principle you haven't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform You know , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . And so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . So that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . Because if it wasn't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . Well , if we had infinite processing power and data , I guess , using the waveform could grad e: Right . But but , i it 's With finite of those things , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , phd d: professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . And it and it it , not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , it just doesn't do nearly as well . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . So maybe just briefly , grad e: Well , that sort of segues into what what I 'm doing . grad e: so , the big picture is k , come up with a set of , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , improve speech recognition in that way . , so right now I 'm in in the phase where I 'm looking at at , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . And I 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , will help me to discriminate later down the line . And one of the ideas , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . And so , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . , and I 'm gonna to try to to look at those patterns to to see , from those patterns , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . And maybe maybe some , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of , that the neural net learns . professor b: Be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . professor b: So , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use P - RASTA - PLP or something for the the primary features , then this feature discovery , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . And , the other difference is that , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , spectral extent . Right ? And whereas in in this case you 're saying " let 's just do it unconstrained " . So they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . Yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . , the other one was , to , come up with a a a model , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we don't know anything about , but that through , s statistical training and the EM algorithm , at the end of the day , we have , we have learned something about these these latent , latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . Yeah , and so those are the the two directions that I 'm I 'm looking into right now . Should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: Oh , tea time ? professor b: Yeah . It 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: That 's ri professor b: We do the digits and then we get our treats <doc-sep>grad h: Yeah , so if So if anyone hasn't signed the consent form , please do so . phd a: Now you won't be able to walk or ride your bike , huh ? professor d: OK . grad h: And , shall I go ahead and do some digits ? professor d: we were gonna do that at the end , remember ? grad h: OK , whatever you want . Just just to be consistent , from here on in at least , that that we 'll do it at the end . professor d: OK Well , it ju it might be that someone here has to go , postdoc f: Testing , one , two , three . So , I had asked actually anybody who had any ideas for an agenda to send it to me and no one did . professor d: postdoc f: From last time I wanted to The An iss one topic from last time . professor d: Right , s OK , so one item for an agenda is Jane has some some research to talk about , research issues . professor d: I have a list of things that I think were done over the last three months I was supposed to send off , and , I I sent a note about it to to Adam and Jane but I think I 'll just run through it also and see if someone thinks it 's inaccurate or insufficient . phd a: A list that you have to send off to who ? professor d: to , IBM . , And , Anything else ? anyone wants to talk about ? phd a: What about the , your trip , yesterday ? professor d: No . professor d: Cuz that 's Cuz that was all all about the , I I I can chat with you about that off - line . , And , Anything else ? Nothing else ? , there 's a , there is a a , telephone call tomorrow , which will be a conference call that some of us are involved in for a possible proposal . , we 'll talk we 'll talk about it next week if if something grad h: Do you want me to be there for that ? I noticed you C C ' ed me , but I wasn't actually a recipient . So it sounds like the the three main things that we have to talk about are , this list , Jane and Jane and Adam have some research items , and , other than that , anything , as usual , anything goes beyond that . OK , Jane , since since you were sort of cut off last time why don't we start with yours , make sure we get to it . postdoc f: OK , it 's it 's very eh it 's very brief , just let me just hand these out . So , if you 've looked at this you 've seen it before , so Basically , as you know , part of the encoding includes a mark that indicates an overlap . It 's not indicated with , tight precision , it 's just indicated that OK , so , It 's indicated to to so the people know what parts of sp which which stretches of speech were in the clear , versus being overlapped by others . So , I used this mark and , and , divided the I wrote a script which divides things into individual minutes , of which we ended up with forty five , and a little bit . postdoc f: And , What you can see is the number of overlaps and then to the right , whether they involve two speakers , three speakers , or more than three speakers . And , and , what I was looking for sp sp specifically was the question of whether they 're distributed evenly throughout or whether they 're bursts of them . And it looked to me as though , you know y this is just eh eh , this would this is not statistically verified , but it did look to me as though there are bursts throughout , rather than being localized to a particular region . The part down there , where there 's the maximum number of of , overlaps is an area where we were discussing whether or not it would be useful to indi to s to code stress , sentence stress as possible indication of , information retrieval . professor d: What was what 's the the parenthesized stuff that says , like e the first one that says six overlaps and then two point eight ? postdoc f: Oh , th That 's the per cent . postdoc f: So , six is , two point eight percent of the total number of overlaps in the session . postdoc f: At the very end , this is when people were , you know , packing up to go basically , there 's this final stuff , I think we I don't remember where the digits fell . postdoc f: So , i it seems like it goes through bursts but , that 's kind of it . postdoc f: Now , Another question is is there are there individual differences in whether you 're likely to be overlapped with or to overlap with others . And , again I want to emphasize this is just one particular one particular meeting , and also there 's been no statistical testing of it all , but I , I took the coding of the I , you know , my I had this script figure out , who was the first speaker , who was the second speaker involved in a two - person overlap , I didn't look at the ones involving three or more . And , this is how it breaks down in the individual cells of who tended to be overlapping most often with who who else , and if you look at the marginal totals , which is the ones on the right side and across the bottom , you get the totals for an individual . So , If you look at the bottom , those are the , numbers of overlaps in which Adam was involved as the person doing the overlapping and if you look I 'm sorry , but you 're o alphabetical , that 's why I 'm choosing you And then if you look across the right , then that 's where he was the person who was the sp first speaker in the pair and got overlap overlapped with by somebody . postdoc f: And , then if you look down in the summary table , then you see that , th they 're differences in whether a person got overlapped with or overlapped by . phd e: Yeah Yeah postdoc f: Yes , very true very true grad h: Normalized to how much postdoc f: it would be good to normalize with respect to that . Now on the table I did take one step toward , away from the raw frequencies by putting , percentages . So that the percentage of time of the of the times that a person spoke , what percentage eh , w so . Of the times a person spoke and furthermore was involved in a two two - person overlap , what percentage of the time were they the overlapper and what percent of the time were they th the overlappee ? And there , it looks like you see some differences , that some people tend to be overlapped with more often than they 're overlapped , but , of course , i e this is just one meeting , there 's no statistical testing involved , and that would be required for a for a finding of any kind of scientific reliability . professor d: S so , i it would be statistically incorrect to conclude from this that Adam talked too much or something . grad h: No no actually , that would be actually statistically correct , professor d: Yeah , yeah . And I 'm you know , I 'm I don't see a point of singling people out , professor d: B I I I rather enjoyed it , but but this postdoc f: now , this is a case where obviously phd a: But the numbers speak for themselves . postdoc f: Well , you know , it 's like I 'm not I 'm not saying on the tape who did better or worse grad h: Yes , that 's right , so you don't nee OK . postdoc f: because I don't think that it 's I you know , and and th here 's a case where of course , human subjects people would say be sure that you anonymize the results , and and , so , might as well do this . grad h: Yeah , when this is what This is actually when Jane sent this email first , is what caused me to start thinking about anonymizing the data . postdoc f: And actually , you know , the point is not about an individual , it 's the point about tendencies toward you know , different styles , different speaker styles . postdoc f: And it would be , you know of course , there 's also the question of what type of overlap was this , and w what were they , and i and I and I know that I can distinguish at least three types and , probably more , the general cultural idea which w , the conversation analysts originally started with in the seventies was that we have this strict model where politeness involves that you let the person finish th before you start talking , and and you know , w we know that an and they 've loosened up on that too s in the intervening time , that that that 's that 's viewed as being a culturally - relative thing , that you have the high - involvement style from the East Coast where people will overlap often as an indication of interest in what the other person is saying . phd b: Exactly ! postdoc f: Yeah , exactly ! phd e: Yeah postdoc f: Well , there you go . And and , you know , in contrast , so Deborah d and also Deborah Tannen 's thesis she talked about differences of these types , that they 're just different styles , and it 's you you can't impose a model of there of the ideal being no overlaps , and you know , conversational analysts also agree with that , so it 's now , universally a ag agreed with . And and , als , I can't say universally , but anyway , the people who used to say it was strict , now , don't . they they also you know , ack acknowledge the influence of sub of subcultural norms and cross - cultural norms and things . So , Then it beco though so just just superficially to give a couple ideas of the types of overlaps involved , I have at the bottom several that I noticed . So , there are backchannels , like what Adam just did now and , anticipating the end of a question and simply answering it earlier , and there are several of those in this in these data where phd b: postdoc f: because we 're people who 've talked to each other , we know basically what the topic is , what the possibilities are and w and we 've spoken with each other so we know basically what the other person 's style is likely to be and so and t there are a number of places where someone just answered early . And places also which I thought were interesting , where two or more people gave exactly th the same answer in unison different words of course but you know , the basically , you know everyone 's saying " yes " or you know , or ev even more sp specific than that . So , the point is that , overlap 's not necessarily a bad thing and that it would be im i useful to subdivide these further and see if there are individual differences in styles with respect to the types involved . professor d: Well , of course th the biggest , result here , which is one we 've we 've talked about many times and isn't new to us , but which I think would be interesting to show someone who isn't familiar with this is just the sheer number of overlaps . professor d: That that Right ? that that , phd e: Yes , yes ! postdoc f: Oh , OK interesting . professor d: here 's a relatively short meeting , it 's a forty forty plus minute meeting , and not only were there two hundred and fifteen overlaps but , I think there 's one one minute there where there where where there wasn't any overlap ? grad h: Hundred ninety - seven . professor d: it 's throughout this thing ? phd a: It 'd be interesting professor d: It 's You have postdoc f: Well , at the bottom , you have the bottom three . grad h: S n are postdoc f: So four four minutes all together with none none . phd a: But it w professor d: Oh , so the bottom three did have s stuff going on ? There was speech ? postdoc f: Yes , - huh . professor d: OK , so if the this phd a: It 'd be interesting to see what the total amount of time is in the overlaps , versus postdoc f: Yes , exactly and that 's that 's where Jose 's pro project comes in . phd e: Yeah , yeah , I h I have this that infor I have th that information now . professor d: Oh , about how much is it ? phd e: The the duration of eh of each of the overlaps . professor d: O oh , what 's what 's the what 's the average length ? phd e: M I I haven't averaged it now but , I I will , I will do the the study of the with the with the program with the , the different , the , nnn , distribution of the duration of the overlaps . professor d: You don't know ? OK , you you don you don't have a feeling for roughly how much it is ? Yeah . phd e: The duration is , the variation the variation of the duration is , very big on the dat phd a: postdoc f: I suspect that it will also differ , depending on the type of overlap involved . postdoc f: So backchannels will be very brief phd e: Because , on your surface eh a bit of zone of overlapping with the duration eh , overlapped and another very very short . phd e: i probably it 's very difficult to to because the the overlap is , on is only the in the final " S " of the of the the fin the the end the end word of the , previous speaker with the the next word of the the new speaker . phd e: I considered that 's an overlap but it 's very short , it 's an " X " with a and the idea is probably , eh when eh when eh , we studied th th that zone , eh eh , we h we have eh eh confusion with eh eh noise . phd e: With eh that fricative sounds , but I have new information but I have to to study . phd g: You split this by minute , so if an overlap straddles the boundary between two minutes , that counts towards both of those minutes . , so le let 's think about the case where A starts speaking and then B overlaps with A , and then the minute boundary happens . And let 's say that after that minute boundary , B is still speaking , and A overlaps with B , that would be a new overlap . But otherwise , let 's say B comes to the conclusion of of that turn without anyone overlapping with him or her , in which case there would be no overlap counted in that second minute . phd g: No , but suppose they both talk simultaneously both a a portion of it is in minute one and another portion of minute two . In that case , my c the coding that I was using since we haven't , incorporated Adam 's , coding of overlap yets , the coding of Yeah , " yets " is not a word . since we haven't incorporated Adam 's method of handling overl overlaps yet then that would have fallen through the cra cracks . It would be an underestimate of the number of overlaps because , I wou I wouldn't be able to pick it up from the way it was encoded so far . professor d: I I postdoc f: We just haven't done th the precise second to sec you know , second to second coding of when they occur . professor d: Let 's say that in in second fifty - seven of one minute , you start talking and I start talking and we ignore each other and keep on talking for six seconds . professor d: So we go over So we were we were talking over one another , and it 's just in each case , it 's just sort of one interval . Right ? postdoc f: - ? professor d: So , we talked over the minute boundary . professor d: OK , so that 's good , i I think , in the sense that I think Andreas meant the question , phd b: That 's that 's good , yeah , cuz the overall rate is phd c: phd g: Yeah . postdoc f: I should also say I did a simplifying , count in that if A was speaking B overlapped with A and then A came back again and overlapped with B again , I I didn't count that as a three - person overlap , I counted that as a two - person overlap , and it was A being overlapped with by D . postdoc f: Because the idea was the first speaker had the floor and the second person started speaking and then the f the first person reasserted the floor kind of thing . postdoc f: These are simplifying assumptions , didn't happen very often , there may be like three overlaps affected that way in the whole thing . grad h: Cuz i i I find it interesting that there were a large number of overlaps and they were all two - speaker . grad h: what I thought what I would have thought in is that when there were a large number of overlaps , it was because everyone was talking at once , but apparently not . postdoc f: Yeah , there 's a lot of backchannel , a lot o a lot of grad h: This is really interesting data . phd b: I think what 's really interesting though , it is before d saying " yes , meetings have a lot of overlaps " is to actually find out how many more we have than two - party . postdoc f: I think so too , I think phd b: Cuz in two - party conversations , like Switchboard , there 's an awful lot too if you just look at backchannels , if you consider those overlaps ? it 's also ver it 's huge . It 's just that people haven't been looking at that because they 've been doing single - channel processing for speech recognition . professor d: - ? phd b: So , the question is , you know , how many more overlaps do you have of , say the two - person type , by adding more people . professor d: Well , but see , I find it interesting even if it wasn't any more , phd b: So . professor d: because since we were dealing with this full duplex sort of thing in Switchboard where it was just all separated out we just everything was just nice , phd b: - ? professor d: so that so the issue is in in a situation where th that 's phd b: Well , it 's not really " nice " . So if you were actually having , depends what you 're doing , if Right now we 're do we have individual mikes on the people in this meeting . So the question is , you know " are there really more overlaps happening than there would be in a two - person party " . professor d: - ? phd b: And and there well may be , but professor d: Let let m let me rephrase what I 'm saying cuz I don't think I 'm getting it across . What what I what I shouldn't use words like " nice " because maybe that 's too i too imprecise . But what is that , in Switchboard , despite the many many other problems that we have , one problem that we 're not considering is overlap . And what we 're doing now is , aside from the many other differences in the task , we are considering overlap and one of the reasons that we 're considering it , you know , one of them not all of them , one of them is that w at least , you know I 'm very interested in the scenario in which , both people talking are pretty much equally audible , and from a single microphone . And so , in that case , it does get mixed in , and it 's pretty hard to jus to just ignore it , to just do processing on one and not on the other . phd b: I I agree that it 's an issue here but it 's also an issue for Switchboard and if you think of meetings being recorded over the telephone , which I think , you know , this whole point of studying meetings isn't just to have people in a room but to also have meetings over different phone lines . phd b: Maybe far field mike people wouldn't be interested in that but all the dialogue issues still apply , professor d: phd b: so if each of us was calling and having a meeting that way you kn you know like a conference call . And , just the question is , y you know , in Switchboard you would think that 's the simplest case of a meeting of more than one person , professor d: phd b: and I 'm wondering how much more overlap of the types that that Jane described happen with more people present . So it may be that having three people is very different from having two people or it may not be . professor d: I think what I 'm All I 'm s really saying is that I don't think we were considering that in Switchboard . But but but professor d: Were you ? grad h: Though it wasn't in the design . professor d: Were you were you were you were you measuring it ? , w w were phd b: There there 's actually to tell you the truth , the reason why it 's hard to measure is because of so , from the point of view of studying dialogue , which Dan Jurafsky and Andreas and I had some projects on , you want to know the sequence of turns . phd b: So what happens is if you 're talking and I have a backchannel in the middle of your turn , and then you keep going what it looks like in a dialogue model is your turn and then my backchannel , professor d: Yeah . professor d: Yeah ? phd b: So , for things like language modeling or dialogue modeling it 's We know that that 's wrong in real time . professor d: Yeah ? phd b: But , because of the acoustic segmentations that were done and the fact that some of the acoustic data in Switchboard were missing , people couldn't study it , but that doesn't mean in the real world that people don't talk that way . phd b: Well , we 've als professor d: And and and , you you maybe wanted to look at it before but , for these various technical reasons in terms of how the data was you weren't . professor d: So that 's why it 's coming to us as new even though it may well be you know , if your if your hypothes The hypothesis you were offering eh phd b: . professor d: Right ? if it 's the null poth hypothesis , and if actually you have as much overlap in a two - person , we don't know the answer to that . The reason we don't know the answer to is cuz it wasn't studied and it wasn't studied because it wasn't set up . Right ? phd b: Yeah , all I meant is that if you 're asking the question from the point of view of what 's different about a meeting , studying meetings of , say , more than two people versus what kinds of questions you could ask with a two - person meeting . professor d: - ? phd b: It 's important to distinguish that , you know , this project is getting a lot of overlap but other projects were too , but we just couldn't study them . Right ? phd b: Well , there is a high rate , professor d: We do kn we don't know the numbers . It 's but I don't know how high , in fact phd a: Well , here I have a question . professor d: See , i i le let me t , my point was just if you wanted to say to somebody , " what have we learned about overlaps here ? " just never mind comparison with something else , phd b: professor d: what we 've learned about is overlaps in this situation , is that the first the first - order thing I would say is that there 's a lot of them . professor d: In in the sense that i if you said if i i i phd b: Yeah , I I don't di I agree with that . professor d: In a way , I guess what I 'm comparing to is more the common sense notion of how how much people overlap . you know the fact that when when when , Adam was looking for a stretch of of speech before , that didn't have any overlaps , and he w he was having such a hard time and now I look at this and I go , " well , I can see why he was having such a hard time " . All I 'm saying is that from the professor d: I 'm saying if I I 'm saying if I have this complicated thing in front of me , and we sh which , you know we 're gonna get much more sophisticated about when we get lots more data , But Then , if I was gonna describe to somebody what did you learn right here , about , you know , the the modest amount of data that was analyzed I 'd say , " Well , the first - order thing was there was a lot of overlaps " . In fact and it 's not just an overlap bunch of overlaps second - order thing is it 's not just a bunch of overlaps in one particular point , but that there 's overlaps , throughout the thing . phd b: I 'm just saying that it may the reason you get overlaps may or may not be due to sort of the number of people in the meeting . phd b: because some of the data say Switchboard , which isn't exactly the same kind of context , these are two people who don't know each other and so forth , But we should still be able to somehow say what what is the added contra contribution to sort of overlap time of each additional person , or something like that . professor d: Yeah , that would be good to know , phd a: What professor d: but w we postdoc f: OK , now . postdoc f: And the reason is because I think there 's a limit there 's an upper bound on how many you can have , simply from the standpoint of audibility . postdoc f: children don't adjust so well , if a truck goes rolling past , adults will well , depending , but mostly , adults will will will hold off to what to finish the end of the sentence till the till the noise is past . postdoc f: And I think we generally do monitor things like that , about whether we whether our utterance will be in the clear or not . postdoc f: And partly it 's related to rhythmic structure in conversation , so , you know , you you t Yeah , this is d also , people tend to time their their their , when they come into the conversation based on the overall rhythmic , ambient thing . And and , just to finish this , that That I think that there may be an upper bound on how many overlaps you can have , simply from the standpoint of audibility and how loud the other people are who are already in the fray . Now if it 's just backchannels , people may be doing that with less intention of being heard , just sort of spontaneously doing backchannels , in which case that those might there may be no upper bound on those . phd g: I I have a feeling that backchannels , which are the vast majority of overlaps in Switchboard , don't play as big a role here , because it 's very unnatural I think , to backchannel if in a multi - audience you know , in a multi - person audience . It 's interesting , so if you watch people are going like Right right , like this here , phd g: Right . professor d: u phd g: But but , it 's sort of odd if one person 's speaking and everybody 's listening , and it 's unusual to have everybody going " - huh , - huh " professor d: Actually , I think I 've done it a fair number of times today . So so actually , That 's in part because the nodding , if you have visual contact , the nodding has the same function , but on the phone , in Switchboard you you that wouldn't work . Your mike is phd a: So , in the two - person conversations , when there 's backchannel , is there a great deal of overlap in the speech ? grad h: That is an earphone , so if you just put it so it 's on your ear . phd a: or Cuz my impression is sometimes it happens when there 's a pause , phd b: Yes . phd a: you know , like you you get a lot of backchannel , when somebody 's pausing phd b: Yes . phd b: Sorry , what were you saying ? phd a: It 's hard to do both , huh ? no , when when when there 's backchannel , just I was just listening , and and when there 's two people talking and there 's backchannel it seems like , the backchannel happens when , you know , the pitch drops and the first person phd b: Oh . phd a: and a lot of times , the first person actually stops talking and then there 's a backchannel and then they start up again , and so I 'm wondering about h I just wonder how much overlap there is . Is there a lot ? phd b: I think there 's a lot of the kind that Jose was talking about , where , this is called " precision timing " in conversation analysis , where they come in overlapping , but at a point where the information is mostly complete . So all you 're missing is some last syllables or something or the last word or some highly predictable words . phd a: But maybe a just a small overlap ? phd b: But you know , from information flow point of view it 's not an overlap in the predictable information . phd g: So so phd b: Well , that 's exactly , exactly why we wanted to study the precise timing of overlaps ins in Switchboard , professor d: Yeah . , to distinguish between , say , backchannels precision timing Sort of you know , benevolent overlaps , and and and w and and sort of , I don't know , hostile overlaps , where someone is trying to grab the floor from someone else . I ju I I think that in this meeting I really had the feeling that wasn't happening , that the hostile hostile type . phd g: I could imagine that as there 's a fair number of cases where , and this is sort of , not really hostile , but sort of competitive , where one person is finishing something and you have , like , two or three people jumping trying to trying to trying to , grab the next turn . phd g: And so it 's not against the person who talks first because actually we 're all waiting for that person to finish . professor d: I have a feeling most of these things are that that are not a benevolent kind are are are , are are competitive as opposed to real really really hostile . phd a: postdoc f: Well , there are various things , you you have the professor d: a vote vote in Florida . phd e: Voting for professor d: o one thing I I wanted to or you can tell a good joke and then everybody 's laughing and you get a chance to g break in . You know , the other thing I was thinking was that , these all these interesting questions are , of course , pretty hard to answer with , u you know , a small amount of data . professor d: So , I wonder if what you 're saying suggests that we should make a conscious attempt to have , a a fair number of meetings with , a smaller number of people . Right ? we most of our meetings are , meetings currently with say five , six , seven , eight people Should we really try to have some two - person meetings , or some three - person meetings and re record them just to to to beef up the the statistics on that ? postdoc f: That 's a control . Well , it seems like there are two possibilities there , i it seems like if you have just two people it 's not really , y like a meeting , w is not as similar as the rest of the of the sample . It depends on what you 're after , of course , but It seems like that would be more a case of the control condition , compared to , an experimental condition , with more than two . professor d: Well , Liz was raising the question of of whether i it 's the number there 's a relationship between the number of people and the number of overlaps or type of overlaps there , postdoc f: professor d: and , If you had two people meeting in this kind of circumstance then you 'd still have the visuals . professor d: Yeah , acoustic is fine , but phd g: If if the goal were to just look at overlap you would you could serve yourself save yourself a lot of time but not even transcri transcribe the words . phd b: Well , I was thinking you should be able to do this from the acoustics , on the close - talking mikes , grad h: Yep . grad h: Well , that 's the that was my my status report , phd b: right ? postdoc f: You 've been working on that . , not as well as what , you wouldn't be able to have any kind of typology , obviously , professor d: Yeah . professor d: But what what do you think about that ? Do you think that would be useful ? I 'm just thinking that as an action item of whether we should try to record some two - person meetings or something . phd b: I guess my my first comment was , only that we should n not attribute overlaps only to meetings , but maybe that 's obvious , maybe everybody knew that , professor d: Yeah . phd b: but that in normal conversation with two people there 's an awful lot of the same kinds of overlap , and that it would be interesting to look at whether there are these kinds of constraints that Jane mentioned , that what maybe the additional people add to this competition that happens right after a turn , professor d: phd b: you know , because now you can have five people trying to grab the turn , but pretty quickly there 're they back off and you go back to this sort of only one person at a time with one person interrupting at a time . To answer your question I it I don't think it 's crucial to have controls but I think it 's worth recording all the meetings we can . phd b: D I wouldn't not record a two - person meeting just because it only has two people . phd g: Could we Could we , we have have in the past and I think continue will continue to have a fair number of phone conference calls . phd g: And , and as a to , as another c c comparison condition , we could see what what what happens in terms of overlap , when you don't have visual contact . phd g: So , phd b: Can we actually record ? grad h: It just seems like that 's a very different thing than what we 're doing . phd g: Or , this is getting a little extravagant , we could put up some kind of blinds or something to to remove , visual contact . grad h: Barriers ! phd b: That 's what they did on Map Task , you know , this Map Task corpus ? They ran exactly the same pairs of people with and without visual cues and it 's quite interesting . professor d: Well , we we record this meeting so regularly it wouldn't be that a little strange . That would professor d: Oh , th that was the other thing , weren't we gonna take a picture at the beginning of each of these meetings ? grad h: what I had thought we were gonna do is just take pictures of the whiteboards . phd a: Why why do we want to have a picture of the meeting ? phd b: Ee - you mean , transc no postdoc f: The because you get then the spatial relationship of the speakers . postdoc f: And that could be phd g: Well , you could do that by just noting on the enrollment sheet the the seat number . phd a: We can can't you figure it out from the mike number ? grad h: No . And even the jacks , I 'm sitting here and the jack is over in front of you . phd g: Yeah , but It 's it would be trivial grad h: It would be another task . grad h: So I 'm gonna put little labels on all the chairs with the seat number . grad h: But , phd g: Put them Like , put them on the table where they phd e: The chair Yeah . postdoc f: But you know , they the s the linguistic anthropologists would say it would be good to have a digital picture anyway , phd a: Just remembered a joke . Posture , and we could like , you know , block out the person 's face or whatever phd g: What people were wearing . postdoc f: but but , you know , these are important cues , phd g: Oh , Andreas was phd a: How big their heads are . postdoc f: the the how a person is sitting is professor d: But if you just f But from one picture , I don't know that you really get that . postdoc f: It 'd be better than nothing , is is i Just from a single picture I think you can tell some aspects . professor d: Think so ? postdoc f: I I could tell you , if I if I 'm in certain meetings I notice that there are certain people who really do eh The body language is very is very interesting in terms of the dominance aspect . postdoc f: But it 's just , you know , the the body phd a: He agreed . postdoc f: you know ? grad h: Of course , the where we sit at the table , I find is very interesting , that we do tend to cong to gravitate to the same place each time . I 'm sitting here so that I can run into the room if the hardware starts , you know , catching fire or something . phd g: Oh , no , you you just like to be in charge , that 's why you 're sitting grad h: I just want to be at the head of the table . grad h: Yeah , I 've been playing with , using the close - talking mike to do to try to figure out who 's speaking . So my first attempt was just using thresholding and filtering , that we talked about about two weeks ago , and so I played with that a little bit , and it works O K , except that it 's very sensitive to your choice of your filter width and your threshold . So if you fiddle around with it a little bit and you get good numbers you can actually do a pretty good job of segmenting when someone 's talking and when they 're not . But if you try to use the same paramenters on another speaker , it doesn't work anymore , even if you normalize it based on the absolute loudness . phd b: But does it work for that one speaker throughout the whole meeting ? grad h: It does work for the one speaker throughout the whole meeting . grad h: What do you mean ? phd a: wh what was the grad h: The algorithm was , take o every frame that 's over the threshold , and then median - filter it , and then look for runs . grad h: So there was a minimum run length , phd a: Every frame that 's over what threshold ? grad h: so that A threshold that you pick . grad h: So you take a each frame , and you compute the energy and if it 's over the threshold you set it to one , and if it 's under the threshold you set it to zero , so now you have a bit stream of zeros and ones . well , actually I guess depends on what you mean by long , you know , tenth of a second sorts of numbers . and that 's to average out you know , pitch , you know , the pitch contours , and things like that . postdoc f: OK grad h: And that works O K , if you fil if you tune the filter parameters , if you tune how long your median filter is and how high you 're looking for your thresholds . phd a: Did you ever try running the filter before you pick a threshold ? grad h: No . OK and then the other thing I did , was I took Javier 's speaker - change detector acoustic - change detector , and I implemented that with the close - talking mikes , and unfortunately that 's not working real well , and it looks like it 's the problem is he does it in two passes , the first pass is to find candidate places to do a break . And he does that using a neural net doing broad phone classification and he has the the , one of the phone classes is silence . And what looks like it 's happening is that the even on the close - talking mike the broad phone class classifier 's doing a really bad job . Does an do you remember , Morgan , was it Broadcast News ? professor d: I think so , yeah . grad h: So , at any rate , my next attempt , which I 'm in the midst of and haven't quite finished yet was actually using the , thresholding as the way of generating the candidates . Because one of the things that definitely happens is if you put the threshold low you get lots of breaks . But , like , it could be someone who isn't the person here , but the person over there or it can be the person breathing . But all of this is close - talking mike , so it 's , just just trying to get some ground truth . phd e: Only with eh , but eh I I I think , eh when when , y I I saw the the the the speech from PDA and , eh close talker . phd e: but eh I but eh I I that eh eh in the in the mixed file you can find , zone with , eh great different , eh level of energy . not phd e: I I think for , eh algorithm based on energy , eh , that h mmm , more or less , eh , like eh eh , mmm , first sound energy detector . When y you the detect the the the first at at the end of of the detector of , ehm princ . What is the the name in English ? the the , mmm , the de detector of , ehm of a word in the in the s in an isolated word in in the background That , grad h: I 'm I 'm not sure what you 're saying , can you try phd e: that when when you use , eh eh any phd a: I think he 's saying the onset detector . phd e: I I think it 's probably to work well eh , because , eh you have eh , in the mixed files a great level of energy . And probably is not so easy when you use the the PDA , eh that Because the signal is , eh the in the e energy level . I think that , grad h: Ah , in the clo in the P D A , you mean ? phd e: In the PDA . I think the , nnn , the , nnn , that the idea of using a neural network to to get a broad class of phonetic , eh from , eh a candidate from the the the speech signal . If you have , eh , I 'm considering , only because Javier , eh only consider , eh like candidate , the , nnn , eh the silence , because it is the the only model , eh eh , he used that , eh eh nnn , to detect the the possibility of a a change between the between the speaker , grad h: Right . phd e: another another research thing , different groups , eh working , eh on Broadcast News prefer to , eh to consider hypothesis eh between each phoneme . phd e: Because , I I I think it 's more realistic that , only consider the the the the silence between the speaker . phd e: I I found that the , eh silence in in many occasions in the in the speech file , but , eh when you have , eh eh , two speakers together without enough silence between between them , eh I think eh is better to use the acoustic change detector basically and I I I IX or , mmm , BIC criterion for consider all the frames in my opinion . Yeah , the you know , the reason that he , just used silence was not because he thought it was better , it was it was it was the place he was starting . professor d: and , e e you know , as as as is in your case , if you 're here for only a modest number of months you try to pick a realistic goal , phd e: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: But his his goal was always to proceed from there to then allow broad category change also . But , eh do do you think that if you consider all the frames to apply the the , eh the BIC criterion to detect the the the different acoustic change , eh between speaker , without , with , silence or with overlapping , I think like like , eh eh a general , eh eh way of process the the acoustic change . phd e: An - and then , eh eh without considering the you you you , you can consider the energy like a another parameter in the in the feature vector , eh . And if , if you do that , eh eh , with a BIC criterion for example , or with another kind of , eh of distance in a first step , and then you , eh you get the , eh the hypothesis to the this change acoustic , eh to po process grad h: Right . phd e: Because , eh eh , probably you you can find the the eh a small gap of silence between speaker with eh eh a ga mmm , small duration Less than , eh two hundred milliseconds for example professor d: phd e: and apply another another algorithm , another approach like , eh eh detector of ene , eh detector of bass - tone energy to to consider that , eh that , eh zone . of s a small silence between speaker , or another algorithm to to process , eh the the segment between marks eh founded by the the the BIC criterion and applied for for each frame . phd e: I think is , eh nnn , it will be a an an a more general approach the if we compare with use , eh a neural net or another , eh speech recognizer with a broad class or or narrow class , because , in my opinion eh it 's in my opinion , eh if you if you change the condition of the speech , if you adjust to your algorithm with a mixed speech file and to , eh to , eh adapt the neural net , eh used by Javier with a mixed file . phd e: With a m mixed file , grad h: With the what file ? phd a: " Mixed " . And and then you you , eh you try to to apply that , eh , eh , eh , speech recognizer to that signal , to the PDA , eh speech file , I I think you will have problems , because the the the the condition you you will need t t I I suppose that you will need to to to retrain it . professor d: u Look , I I think this is a One once It 's a I used to work , like , on voiced on voice silence detection , you know , and this is this kind of thing . professor d: If you have somebody who has some experience with this sort of thing , and they work on it for a couple months , they can come up with something that gets most of the cases fairly easily . Then you say , " OK , I don't just wanna get most of the cases I want it to be really accurate . So , the p the problem is is that if you say , " Well I I have these other data over here , that I learn things from , either explicit training of neural nets or of Gaussian mixture models or whatever . Well , what does that mean ? That that means you set some thresholds somewhere or something , phd e: Yeah . professor d: right ? and and so where do you get your thresholds from ? phd e: Yeah . So you always have this problem , you 're going to new data H how are you going to adapt whatever you can very quickly learn about the new data ? , if it 's gonna be different from old data that you have ? And I think that 's a problem with this . grad h: Well , also what I 'm doing right now is not intended to be an acoustic change detector for far - field mikes . What I 'm doing is trying to use the close - talking mike and just use Can - and just generate candidate and just try to get a first pass at something that sort of works . phd g: Or grad h: and I haven't spent a lot of time on it and I 'm not intending to spend a lot of time on it . phd g: but , I can imagine building a model of speaker change detection that takes into account both the far - field and the actually , not just the close - talking mike for that speaker , but actually for all of th for all of the speakers . phd g: If you model the the effect that me speaking has on your microphone and everybody else 's microphone , as well as on that , and you build , basically I think you 'd you would build a an that has as a state space all of the possible speaker combinations grad h: All the Yep . professor d: But Actually , Andreas may maybe maybe just something simpler but but along the lines of what you 're saying , grad h: Anyway . professor d: I was just realizing , I used to know this guy who used to build , mike mixers automatic mike mixers where , you know , t in order to able to turn up the gain , you know , as much as you can , you you you lower the gain on on the mikes of people who aren't talking , phd g: Mmm . professor d: right ? And then he had some sort of reasonable way of doing that , phd g: professor d: but , what if you were just looking at very simple measures like energy measures but you don't just compare it to some threshold overall but you compare it to the energy in the other microphones . grad h: I was thinking about doing that originally to find out who 's the loudest , and that person is certainly talking . I I have found that when when I I analyzed the the speech files from the , eh mike , eh from the eh close eh microphone , eh I found zones with a a different level of energy . because , eh eh depend on the position of the of the microph of the each speaker to , eh , to get more o or less energy i in the mixed sign in the signal . and then , if you consider energy to to detect overlapping in in , and you process the the in the the the speech file from the the the mixed signals . I I think it 's it 's difficult , only to en with energy to to consider that in that zone We have eh , eh , overlapping zone Eh , if you process only the the energy of the , of each frame . professor d: Well , it 's probably harder , but I I think what I was s nnn noting just when he when Andreas raised that , was that there 's other information to be gained from looking at all of the microphones and you may not need to look at very sophisticated things , phd e: Yeah . professor d: because if there 's if most of the overlaps you know , this doesn't cover , say , three , but if most of the overlaps , say , are two , if the distribution looks like there 's a couple high ones and and the rest of them are low , phd e: Yeah . professor d: by the way , I had an idea with while I was watching Chuck nodding at a lot of these things , is that we can all wear little bells on our heads , so that then you 'd know that phd e: Yeah . That 's cute ! phd b: I think that 'd be really interesting too , with blindfolds . The question is , like whether grad h: " what are you nodding about ? " phd b: Well , trying with and with and without , yeah . phd a: Actually , I saw a a woman at the bus stop the other day who , was talking on her cell phone speaking Japanese , and was bowing . phd b: It 's very difficult if you try while you 're trying , say , to convince somebody on the phone it 's difficult not to move your hands . I still think we should try a a meeting or two with the blindfolds , at least of this meeting that we have lots of recordings of grad h: phd b: maybe for part of the meeting , we don't have to do it the whole meeting . It 'll be too hard to make barriers , I was thinking because they have to go all the way professor d: W Yeah . postdoc f: Actually well also I I can say I made barr barriers for so that the stuff I was doing with Collin wha which just used , this kind of foam board . You can you can masking tape it together , these are you know , pretty l large partitions . phd b: But then we also have these mikes , is the other thing I was thinking , so we need a barrier that doesn't disturb the sound , postdoc f: It 's true , it would disturb the , the the long - range grad h: The acoustics . phd b: it sounds weird but but you know it 's it 's cheap and , Be interesting to have the camera going . grad h: Yeah , that 's right , we didn't tell them we would be blindfolding . professor d: That 's postdoc f: " Do you mind being blindfolded while you 're interviewed ? " professor d: that 's that 's that 's the one that we videotape . I did have this other agenda item which is , @ @ it 's a list which I sent to a couple folks , but I wanted to get broader input on it , So this is the things that I think we did in the last three months obviously not everything we did but but sort of highlights that I can can tell s some outside person , you know , what what were you actually working on . in no particular order , one , ten more hours of meeting r meetings recorded , something like that , you know from from , three months ago . , pilot data put together and sent to IBM for transcription , next batch of recorded data put together on the CD - ROMs for shipment to IBM , grad h: Hasn't been sent yet , but It 's getting ready . human subjects approval on campus , and release forms worked out so the meeting participants have a chance to request audio pixelization of selected parts of the spee their speech . preliminary analysis of overlaps in the pilot data we have transcribed , and exploratory analysis of long - distance inferences for topic coherence , that was I was wasn't sure if those were the right way that was the right way to describe that because of that little exercise that that you and and Lokendra did . postdoc f: What was that called ? professor d: I well , I I 'm probably saying this wrong , but what I said was exploratory analysis of long - distance inferences for topic coherence . so , I a lot of that was from , you know , what what what you two were doing so I I sent it to you , and you know , please mail me , you know , the corrections or suggestions for changing grad h: professor d: I I don't want to make this twice it 's length but but you know , just im improve it . professor d: " Bunch of stuff for s " OK , maybe maybe send me a sentence that 's a little thought through about that . grad h: So , OK , I 'll send you a sentence that doesn't just say " a bunch of " ? professor d: " Bunch of stuff " , yeah , " stuff " is probably bad too , grad h: Yep . and and you know , I sort of threw in what you did with what Jane did on in under the , preliminary analysis of overlaps . Thilo , can you tell us about all the work you 've done on this project in the last , last three months ? phd e: Yeah . Wh - what is " audio pixelization " ? professor d: audio pix wh he did it , so why don't you explain it quickly ? grad h: It 's just , beeping out parts that you don't want included in the meeting so , you know you can say things like , " Well , this should probably not be on the record , but beep " phd c: OK , OK . We we we spent a a a fair amount of time early on just talk dealing with this issue about op w e e we realized , " well , people are speaking in an impromptu way and they might say something that would embarrass them or others later " , and , how do you get around that phd c: OK . professor d: so in the consent form it says , well you we will look at the transcripts later and if there 's something that you 're unhappy with , yeah . professor d: But you don't want to just totally excise it because , well you have to be careful about excising it , how how you excise it keeping the timing right and so forth so that at the moment tho th the idea we 're running with is is h putting the beep over it . grad h: if someone is listening to it , there 's no mistake that it 's been beeped out , phd c: Yeah . You can you know , you could make a m as long as you keep using the same beep , people could make a model of that beep , postdoc f: . And I use it 's it 's , it 's an A below middle C beep , phd b: I think the beep is a really good idea . phd b: Also phd a: Yeah , it 's more obvious that there was something there than if there 's just silence . professor d: Yeah , that , he 's he 's removing the old thing phd e: Yeah professor d: and and and grad h: Yep . But if you just replaced it with silence , it 's not clear whether that 's really silence or grad h: Yeah , it 's not phd c: Yeah . postdoc f: Well , the other thing that you know , the the alternative might be to s grad h: Yeah . grad h: Sorry , and then the DARPA meeting I just excised completely , postdoc f: Yeah . professor d: Alright , so , I think we should , go on to the digits ? postdoc f: I have one concept a t I I want to say , which is that I think it 's nice that you 're preserving the time relations , grad h: OK . postdoc f: s so you 're you 're not just cutting you 're not doing scissor snips . phd b: So I guess if there 's an overlap , like , if I 'm saying something that 's bleepable and somebody else overlaps during it they also get bleeped , too ? professor d: Yeah . I d I did before we do the digits , I did also wanna remind people , please do send me , you know , thoughts for an agenda , grad h: Agenda ? professor d: yeah that that would be that 'd be good . professor d: Eh So that , people 's ideas don't get grad h: Thursday crept up on me this week . professor d: yeah , well it does creep up , doesn't it ? phd b: And , I wanted to say , I think this is really interesting analysis . grad h: I was gonna say " can you do that for the other meetings , phd b: It 's neat . phd a: Actually actually I I thought that 's what you were giving us was another meeting and I was like , " Oh , OK ! " phd b: Does it take postdoc f: Thank you . I have the script now , so , it can work off the , other thing , grad h: It 's As soon as we get labels , yep . phd a: But it has to be hand - labeled first ? postdoc f: but , well , yeah . postdoc f: But I I just worked off of my phd b: It 's really neat . I think what I what this has , caused me so this discussion caused me to wanna subdivide these further . I 'm gonna take a look at the , backchannels , how much we have anal I hope to have that for next time . grad h: Yeah , my my algorithm worked great actually on these , but when you wear it like that or with the , lapel or if you have it very far from your face , that 's when it starts failing . phd b: Well , I can wear it , if you grad h: It doesn't matter . grad h: right ? I I don't want to change the way we do the meeting . grad h: It 's so , it was just a comment on the software , not a comment on prescriptions on how you wear microphones . grad h: Get the bolts , " whh whh " postdoc f: Let 's do it . postdoc f: Do you want us to put a mark on the bottom of these when they 've actually been read , or do you just i i the only one that wasn't read is is known , so we don't do it <doc-sep> , I can say about just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU . , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . , and when they had the reverberation here , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , about nine DB . professor b: phd a: You mean , from the actual , recordings ? professor b: a fair amount of phd d: k phd a: It 's nine DB ? professor b: Yeah . , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at at , at OGI . , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , the the Aurora HTK system baseline system and the system that we were the the , other system we were using , the , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , hundred hertz high - pass . professor b: For some reason , Dave thought it was twenty , phd d: So the , center would be somewhere around like hundred professor b: but . professor b: But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ? phd d: At twenty hertz . professor b: Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ? phd d: Twenty hertz frequency Oh , it 's it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ? phd c: Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four . professor b: It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ? phd c: Yeah . professor b: Is this oh , from the from phd c: It This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four . professor b: Oh , so you , so you really set it to zero , the FFT ? phd d: Yeah , phd c: Yeah . So I wonder , is it @ @ Was there their experimentation with , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , phd d: throwing away the first ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is is , too , low . phd d: I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse . professor b: On what test set ? phd d: On the same , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora . professor b: phd d: So it was professor b: and on and on the , TI - digits also ? phd d: No , no , no . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room . professor b: Would that be more like Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you if you high - pass filter it from this room . professor b: So , the main the the phd a: So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah . phd a: So wha what is , what 's causing that ? professor b: Well , we got a a video projector in here , and , which we keep on during every every session we record , phd a: Yeah . professor b: which , you know , I I w we were aware of phd a: - huh . professor b: But but , So , those are those are major components , I think , phd a: I see . professor b: but , it , I guess , I maybe I said this last week too but it it it really became apparent to us that we need to to take account of noise . And , so I think when when he gets done with his prelim study I think one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , noise , processing stuff and and , synthesize some speech from it . phd a: When are his prelims ? professor b: And then , I think in about , a little less than two weeks . , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before It might even be in a week . I I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester professor b: week and a half . phd a: but they 'll do it any time , huh ? professor b: They seem to be Well , the semester actually is starting up . phd a: Is it already ? professor b: Yeah , the semester 's late late August they start here . , that that was sort of one , the overall results seemed to be first place in in in the case of either , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . And But if you had a a really big training set , a recognizer , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set I thought that One thing with the HTK is that is has the as we 're using the configuration we 're using is w s is being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . , so , that , that seemed to be So , if you have that that better recognizer that can that can build up more parameters , and if you , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , the right thing to do is just do u use speaker adaptation . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , the convolutional kind of things we were doing . phd d: That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ? phd a: No Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . phd d: Oh , there is another short sample set phd a: There was another short one , yeah . phd a: And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , put out yet . professor b: Is there any word yet about the issues about , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ? phd a: No , I I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . phd d: Cuz they have it phd a: Maybe I 'll send it to the list . phd d: Cuz they have , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what I feel . phd d: And , on that , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those phd a: And so they 've picked the values . professor b: For r w what test set ? phd d: p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal . professor b: But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ? phd c: So they 're , like So they are actually trying to , fix that those values using the clean , training part of the Wall Street Journal . phd d: they want to train it and then this they 're going to run some evaluations . professor b: So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ? phd d: Yeah . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters . professor b: but it 's still worth , I think , just since you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him professor b: phd a: or do you think I should send it to this there 's an a m a mailing list . , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think I think that , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to phd a: OK . professor b: @ @ you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what you know , what does he think about this and what what you know what could be done about it . professor b: if you get ten people in involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how phd a: Yeah . professor b: but if if if there is any , way to move in a way that would that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if if , if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where where political issues will come in . phd d: Because he there was some mail r saying that it 's may not be stable for Linux and all those . phd d: SUSI phd a: Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was phd d: yeah . professor b: but , I noticed , just glancing at the , Hopkins workshop , web site that , one of the thing I don't know Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a a , tool kit for doing , r , arbitrary graphical models for , speech recognition . professor b: So And Jeff , the two Jeffs were phd a: Who 's the second Jeff ? professor b: Oh , do you know Geoff Zweig ? phd a: No . professor b: so he did he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , for for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , inertia in the in the production system , and , phd a: . , so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , MFCC after noise compensation . professor b: What was it using before ? phd c: Before it was just P L phd d: phd c: So . phd c: Yeah , phd d: Yeah , yeah , yeah , phd c: noisy noisy features . phd c: This is what we get after This So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , nine frames of of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . phd a: Is that nine frames u s , centered around the current frame ? Or phd c: Yeah . professor b: S so , I 'm I 'm sorry , there 's there 's there 's how many how many inputs ? phd c: So it 's twelve times nine . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which actually shouldn't be a problem , even in in small phones . phd a: So , I 'm I 'm s so what is different between this and and what you phd c: It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh a es the estimation of the silence probabilities . phd c: So it 's it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large . professor b: What 's the latency ? phd c: Because the the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , the VAD is used , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ? professor b: I I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ? phd c: With two an two hundred and seventy . phd c: If Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation professor b: Oh . I the is this are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or phd c: The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , cleaning of the speech . phd c: Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is , professor b: One hundred milliseconds for smoothing . phd c: phd d: It 's like forty plus forty plus professor b: And then forty phd c: Mmm . phd c: Yeah , there are twenty that comes from There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . phd d: If you are using professor b: phd c: Plus the frame , phd d: t If you are using three frames phd c: so it 's two - twenty . phd d: If you are phrasing f using three frames , it is thirty here for delta . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine nine frames of professor b: And then ten milliseconds for phd d: Fi - There 's an LDA filter . professor b: ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ? phd c: For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty Yeah , well , it 's I guess it 's for the fr the professor b: OK . And then there 's delta besides that ? phd c: So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , main feature stream , professor b: OK . phd c: which is , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds . No , the after the noise part , the forty the the other hundred and eighty Well , Wait a minute . Some of this is , is , is in parallel , isn't it ? , the LDA Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - , VAD ? Or phd c: The VAD use , LDA filtered features also . professor b: so the delta at the end is how much ? phd c: It 's fifty . So phd c: But well , we could probably put the delta , before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference , phd a: What if you used a smaller window for the delta ? phd c: because phd a: Could that help a little bit ? , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to phd c: Yeah . phd c: Yeah , professor b: So phd c: but , nnn professor b: Yeah . So if you if you put the delta before the , ana on - line If Yeah phd c: phd c: Cuz i professor b: And then y then you don't have that additive phd c: Yeah , phd d: Yep . phd c: cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window , professor b: OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , sh pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? phd a: Is two hundred the d professor b: The hundred milla phd c: It could be eighty and and probably do @ @ phd c: Yeah , phd a: i a hun phd c: yeah . phd a: Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ? professor b: Well , we don't know . professor b: if it 's two if if it 's , if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could we could , meet it by moving the delta back . phd a: So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ? professor b: we don't , but it 's just , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it . professor b: And so , th , if if if a week before we have to be done someone says , " Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now " , it would be pretty frantic around here . professor b: phd a: But still , that 's that 's a pretty big , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're in terms of your delay , you 're , that professor b: He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were we were had were able to have the noise , stuff , and the LVA be in parallel . phd c: Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so . phd d: Yeah , the LDA LDA we don't know , is , like is it very crucial for the features , right ? phd c: No . professor b: so you could start pulling back , phd d: S s h professor b: but phd d: Yeah , professor b: But I think you have phd d: l professor b: you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ? phd c: Mmm . Well , in the proposal , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think . professor b: So , what you have now is fort , forty for the the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel , phd c: professor b: right ? So I think , phd c: professor b: you know , that 's that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ? phd c: Yeah . professor b: and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but , we 're s we 're not we 're not in terrible shape . professor b: It 's it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something . phd a: Where where is this where is this fifty - seven point O two in in comparison to the last evaluation ? professor b: Well , it 's I think it 's better than anything , anybody got . Yeah , and r and phd c: It would phd d: Yeah , so this is this is like the first proposal . , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but phd a: Yeah . professor b: but but , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So , our , Yeah , you can see the kind of kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , I think it 's just sort of sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction , professor b: Yeah . So actually , this is in between what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ? phd d: Yeah , it 's almost that . phd a: What was that ? Say that last part again ? phd c: So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , for dropping the frames , phd d: o o Or the best we can get . phd c: the best that we can get i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . phd a: So that would be even That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ? phd c: Yeah . So you you were get phd c: If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech , phd a: Yeah . phd c: then you wou you would go phd a: So that 's sort of the best you could hope for . professor b: And , and sixty - two with the the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . phd c: yeah , the next thing is , I started to play Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , cleaned MFCC . phd a: Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ? phd c: I don't have the comp Mmm ? phd a: Those two ? phd c: So there is just this feature stream , the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta . phd a: Yeah ? phd c: so it 's makes forty - five features that are used as input to the HTK . professor b: cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative , phd c: Yeah . Right now it seems that i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . , professor b: y phd c: like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case . professor b: You 're just using the full ninety features ? phd c: The professor b: Y you have ninety features ? phd c: i I have , From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . It 's i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . phd c: But we have to for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features . phd a: So , it seems funny that I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , but that adding features I guess I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then professor b: Well , yeah . professor b: But , just in general , adding information Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise . professor b: Right ? So so , Or or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier . professor b: Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel professor b: - huh . professor b: So , " highly mismatched condition " means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test . professor b: So having having , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , make things worse . If you have if you have , lots and lots of data , and you have and your your your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . professor b: So I wonder , Well , what 's your what 's your thought about what to do next with it ? phd c: I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the professor b: phd c: Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , noises , added . phd c: professor b: Well , we might , we might have to experiment with , better training sets . professor b: I The other thing is , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different The rest of it is different , right ? So , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other other path ? phd c: professor b: You don't necessarily know what phd a: What if you did the Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the phd c: Yeah . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it we we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT . phd c: And phd a: So you tried the global KLT before phd c: Well phd a: and it didn't really phd c: Yeah . phd c: The differences between these configurations were not huge , but it was marginally better with this configuration . professor b: And I guess if the These are all so all of these seventy - three features are going into , the , the . professor b: And is are i i are are any deltas being computed of tha of them ? phd c: Of the straight features , yeah . phd c: So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as Dan did in in his last work . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , now I lost track of what I was thinking . phd a: What is the You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ? phd c: phd a: What 's the relation between that limit and the , forty - eight , forty eight hundred bits per second ? professor b: Oh , I know what I was gonna say . phd a: So I I I don't understand , phd c: The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features . phd a: because i , if you 're only using h phd c: And generally , i it s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , cepstrum . professor b: The issue was that , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it it might be a concern how many parameters are use u used and so forth . What I was going to say is that , maybe maybe with the noise removal , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another . professor b: And , they 're being fed into these , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and and , phd c: professor b: so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , have , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it . phd d: What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ? phd c: It 's , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . So we found this this , this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good . professor b: So that 's i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is is just improving the training set . professor b: we were getting , lots better recognition using that , than Of course , you do have the problem that , u i we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , or anything to , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something . phd a: So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ? professor b: Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train . professor b: We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount , phd a: Right . , phd a: What what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ? phd c: It 's TIMIT with noise . phd c: So , yeah , it 's rather a small professor b: How big is the net , by the way ? phd c: it 's , five hundred hidden units . And professor b: And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it and that was that was sort of the threshold point . @ @ ? phd d: So is it is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , cleaning up that you that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ? phd c: phd d: So it 's i All the noises are from the TI - digits , phd c: Yeah . phd d: right ? So you i phd c: They k phd d: Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the the training set of TIMIT after clean s after you do the noise clean - up . phd d: So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net . phd d: But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ? phd c: Yeah . phd d: And is it something to do with the mismatch that that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch phd c: You mean the the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than phd d: professor b: but , you 're saying Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy . phd d: Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . phd d: And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car . professor b: Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation . phd c: Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we the problem was already there before . phd c: Because Mmm professor b: Yeah , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set . professor b: Right ? , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before , phd d: . professor b: but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch . professor b: So , this may be Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . I I just that could be seen from the TI - digits , testing condition because , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise phd c: Yeah . So phd d: So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch high mismatch like this phd c: Clean training , yeah . professor b: the Macrophone data , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but I think it 's it 's varied enough that if if doing this adjustments , and playing around with it doesn't , make it better , the most , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . , what we were the condition It it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , what we were going on here . But it was just I think just having a a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing . phd c: Yeah , actually to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . phd c: When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know how to interpret that , but , mmm professor b: Yeah . phd c: t phd a: And and did an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ? phd c: They p stayed the same , phd a: Roughly ? phd c: they maybe they are a little bit , lower . But professor b: Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ? phd c: professor b: And it Remind me again , the " highly mismatched " means that the phd c: Clean training and professor b: sorry ? phd c: It 's clean training Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , high speed , I think . professor b: Close mike training phd c: Well The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing . phd c: The feature are the same except that professor b: that 's right , that 's right . phd a: Well that that says that , you know , the , the models in in , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features . professor b: But , yeah , actually the TIMIT noises are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's it 's pretty different . " phd c: " Subway " , right ? and phd d: " Street " or " Airport " or something . phd c: So it 's mostly Well , " Car " is stationary , professor b: phd c: " Babble " , it 's a stationary background plus some voices , professor b: professor b: Well , I I think that if you run it Actually , you maybe you remember this . When you in in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , with the the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ? phd c: professor b: Was it about the same ? , w i phd c: It was b a little bit worse . professor b: So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and all these things , then professor b: They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing . phd c: Yeah , professor b: And and the thing I I have in mind is , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse . You know ? And , But if on the ha other hand , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and and and , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a of a , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow . professor b: If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on on , improving the the net . professor b: So what 's the overall effe , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's but of course that one 's weighted lower , phd c: Y yeah , oh . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . phd d: Well , it will overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five point two five eight . So the so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four , phd d: Is it like professor b: and and , in fact since the others are somewhat better phd d: Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same . phd a: In the , a lot of the , the Hub - five systems , recently have been using LDA . So there 's the the LDA is is right there before the H M phd d: Yeah . phd a: So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process . The LDA that you saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , and then do an LDA on it , phd a: Yeah . phd a: it 's you know , you 're just basically i phd d: Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency high cost frequency . So it 's like more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r phd a: Ah . So what i what about , i u what i w , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put ran the other kind of LDA , on your features right before they go into the ? phd d: it phd c: phd a: But , w but the other features that you have , th the non - tandem ones , phd c: . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but phd a: - huh . professor b: The a the argument i is kind of i in and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , we always have the prob , discriminative things are good . professor b: they 're good because you you you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . It PAC - PCA low - order PCA throws away pieces that are , maybe not not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically . professor b: But , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is is something else . professor b: And so , Stephane 's idea was , let 's feed , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make , phd a: Yeah . professor b: and then , you you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that that doesn't have that , phd a: - huh . And that that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the , what , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he he when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was was it didn't help at all in this particular case . But by having them both there The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you . professor b: And some of the time it 's going to hurt you , phd a: Right . professor b: and by combining two information sources if , you know if if phd a: So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that professor b: That i i I think that 's counter to that idea . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that . professor b: and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA . , we , we were getting ready to do the tandem , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , " Well , yeah , that i you know th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path . phd a: You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . professor b: or tha that 's a phd a: That 's what that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . phd a: it everybody believes it , professor b: Oh , no it 's a g phd a: but you know , we just professor b: No , no , but it might not not even be true . professor b: it 's it 's it 's it 's it 's a great idea . , one of the things that always disturbed me , in the the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , a lot of people Because neural nets were pretty easy to to use a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , looking at all into the linear , versions of them . professor b: And , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and You know , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it . phd a: Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this , professor b: Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years , phd a: but . professor b: but but but , phd a: Yeah , what is it 's it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , you know , LDA on their features . phd c: It 's the transformation they 're estimating on Well , they are trained on the same data as the final are . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that that you guys have . phd a: So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea . professor b: part of why I I think part of why you were getting into the KLT Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , you know , getting good orthogonal features was and combining the the different temporal ranges was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying I think you r , this is it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ? phd c: phd d: So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , with full band and multiple bands , m ps separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it if it can professor b: phd d: just like Which means that it 's it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD , professor b: phd d: so , professor b: But i d I 'm sorry , phd d: so u professor b: does it still have the median filter stuff ? phd d: It still has the median filter . professor b: So it still has most of the delay , phd d: So professor b: it just doesn't phd d: Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . professor b: Well , w i phd d: At the input of the neural net you have this , f nine frames of context plus the delta . phd d: so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output . So the the di the biggest The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car professor b: phd d: and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish . So there are there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds . phd d: So The I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the after the p clean up maybe , some , correlation auto - correlation or some s additional features of to mainly the improvement of the VAD . professor b: Now this this this , " before and after clean " , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That that , it you th think that the , the i it appears to be a good feature , right ? phd d: phd c: Yeah , eventually we could could just phd d: Yeah , so Yeah , so that 's the Yeah . phd d: Because they did that itself phd c: Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and phd d: There 's a threshold and Yeah . So if we if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then then that would be a , good thing . professor b: anybody has anybody you guys or or Naren , somebody , tried the , second th second stream thing ? . phd d: Oh , I just I just h put the second stream in place and , ran one experiment , but just like just to know that everything is fine . phd d: So it was like , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel log mel . phd d: And and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement . phd d: So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is But I I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is is is , put it into another neural net . phd d: The , other thing I was wondering was , if the neural net , has any because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional some four plus some f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually , phd c: phd d: instead of just h having c , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like The the We have the VAD flag . , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it it has some additional discriminating information at the input ? phd c: - ! professor b: Wh - , the the VAD what ? phd d: We have the VAD information also available at the back - end . phd d: So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes professor b: Yeah . phd d: Because most of it is sil , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ? professor b: So , by having an additional , feature which says " this is speech and this is nonspeech " , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net . phd a: What Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ? phd d: Well , we have we are transferring the VAD to the back - end feature to the back - end . phd d: Which is which is certainly giving a phd a: So you 're saying , feed that , also , into the neural net . The other thing you could do is just , p modify the , output probabilities of the of the , neural net , tandem neural net , based on the fact that you have a silence probability . professor b: So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize . professor b: But but , phd c: Yeah , so maybe , yeah , when phd a: But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ? professor b: Well , u Not sure . " Or you can say , " It 's silence ! Go away ! " , i Doesn't ? I think I think the second one sounds a lot more direct . So , what if you then , since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ? professor b: Well , phd c: That 's what phd a: Well , I guess that 's the same . professor b: Yeah , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously , phd a: But , train the net only on professor b: but it 's @ @ Well , no , you want to train on on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to to to generate , that it 's it has to distinguish between . phd a: But , if you 're gonna if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , would then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ? professor b: Well , yeah . Now the only thing that that bothers me about all this is that I I I The the fact i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions . But So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , professor b: Is too high . So maybe So phd c: If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by i by something ? phd d: It may not be it professor b: Yeah . phd d: Yeah , it it may be too it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , flat probability . phd d: So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech phd c: yeah . phd a: Be interesting to look at the Yeah , for the I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the the other ones , do you do you see more peaks or something ? phd c: Yeah . phd c: or professor b: But I bu phd c: It it seems that the VAD network doesn't Well , it doesn't drop , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then professor b: Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system , phd c: u professor b: cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ? phd c: But phd d: But but I I guess phd a: But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ? phd d: well . professor b: It 's kind of done in , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the with a tandem net . So maybe , if that doesn't work , But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And and and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well . professor b: But that 's Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , causing deletions by having this silence probability up up too high , phd c: phd c: So , m professor b: Cuz Well , the V A if the VAD said since the VAD is is is right a lot , phd c: Yeah . Yeah , and the other thing Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , well , do we want to , w n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ? phd a: For the tandem net you mean ? phd c: Well , I 'm Yeah . phd c: I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he he trained a network , not on phoneme targets but on the state targets . professor b: Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary , phd c: Yeah . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and come up with a a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and and Yeah . But I d I d it it i it 's all worth looking at , phd c: professor b: but it sounds to me like , looking at the relationship between this and the speech noise stuff is is is probably a key thing . phd a: So if , if the , high mismatch case had been more like the , the other two cases in terms of giving you just a better performance , how would this number have changed ? phd c: If if i phd a: y Like sixty ? professor b: Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five . phd c: Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's s Right ? If everything is five percent . phd c: I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so phd a: Yeah . phd c: It 's running it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon , phd a: . Well So I won't be here for phd a: When When do you leave ? professor b: I 'm leaving next Wednesday . , phd a: But you 're professor b: so I phd a: are you you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: This afternoon Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus . But , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . , phd a: What 's September sixth ? professor b: and , that 's during Eurospeech . Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . And and then , we 'll start up again with Dave and Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , twentieth . Thirteenth ? About a month ? phd a: So , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ? professor b: I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting starting next Wed - late next Wednesday . Is that right ? professor b: I won't it 's probably four because of is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . And the the third one won't probably won't be a meeting , cuz cuz , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here . So it 's just , the next two where there will be there , you know , may as well be meetings , phd a: OK . And then starting up on the thirteenth , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow . phd a: When is the evaluation ? November , or something ? professor b: Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth <doc-sep>grad g: So I think maybe what 's causing it to crash is I keep starting it and then stopping it to see if it 's working . postdoc b: And it looks like you 've found a way of mapping the location to the without having people have to give their names each time ? phd a: Sounds like an initialization thing . postdoc b: it 's like you have the So you know that grad g: No . postdoc b: are you going to write down that I sat here ? grad g: I 'm gonna collect the digit forms and write it down . u And I should say that , you just pau you just read each line an and then pause briefly . professor e: So , you see , Don , the unbridled excitement of the work that we have on this project . grad g: And I 'm surprised I sort of I 'm surprised I forgot that , professor e: Yeah , I I 'd I think it 's some grad g: but I think that would be a good thing to add . professor e: Yeah , well , that 's , so I I do have a a an agenda suggestion . , we I think the things that we talk about in this meeting tend to be a mixture of procedural mundane things and research points and I was thinking I think it was a meeting a couple of weeks ago that we we spent much of the time talking about the mundane stuff cuz that 's easier to get out of the way and then we sort of drifted into the research and maybe five minutes into that Andreas had to leave . So I 'm suggesting we turn it around and and sort of we have anybody has some mundane points that we could send an email later , hold them for a bit , and let 's talk about the the research - y kind of things . , so the one th one thing I know that we have on that is we had talked a a couple weeks before about the the stuff you were doing with with l l attempting to locate events , we had a little go around trying to figure out what you meant by " events " but I think , you know , what we had meant by " events " I guess was points of overlap between speakers . But I th I gather from our discussion a little earlier today that you also mean interruptions with something else phd d: Yeah . phd d: To professor e: So at any rate you were you 've you 've done some work on that phd d: right . professor e: and then the other thing would be it might be nice to have a preliminary discussion of some of the other research areas that we 're thinking about doing . , I think especially since you you haven't been in in these meetings for a little bit , maybe you have some discussion of some of the p the plausible things to look at now that we 're starting to get data , and one of the things I know that also came up is some discussions that that that Jane had with Lokendra about some some some work about I I I d I I don't want to try to say cuz I I 'll say it wrong , but anyway some some potential collaboration there about about the about the working with these data . Well , I don't know if we if this is sort of like everybody has something to contribute sort of thing , I think there 's just just a couple a couple people primarily but , wh why don't Actually I think that that last one I just said we could do fairly quickly so why don't you you start with that . postdoc b: so , he was interested in the question of you know , relating to his to the research he presented recently , of inference structures , and , the need to build in , this this sort of mechanism for understanding of language . And he gave the example in his talk about how , e a I 'm remembering it just off the top of my head right now , but it 's something about how , i " Joe slipped " you know , " John had washed the floor " or something like that . And I don't have it quite right , but that kind of thing , where you have to draw the inference that , OK , there 's this time sequence , but also the the the causal aspects of the floor and and how it might have been the cause of the fall and that it was the other person who fell than the one who cleaned it and it These sorts of things . So , I looked through the transcript that we have so far , and , fou identified a couple different types of things of that type and , one of them was something like , during the course of the transcript , w we had gone through the part where everyone said which channel they were on and which device they were on , and , the question was raised " Well , should we restart the recording at this point ? " And and Dan Ellis said , " Well , we 're just so far ahead of the game right now we really don't need to " . Now , how would you interpret that without a lot of inference ? So , the inferences that are involved are things like , OK , so , how do you interpret " ahead of the game " ? You know . So it 's the it 's i What you what you int what you draw you know , the conclusions that you need to draw are that space is involved in recording , grad g: metaphorically . postdoc b: that , i that i we have enough space , and he continues , like " we 're so ahead of the game cuz now we have built - in downsampling " . So you have to sort of get the idea that , " ahead of the game " is sp speaking with respect to space limitations , that that in fact downsampling is gaining us enough space , and that therefore we can keep the recording we 've done so far . grad g: So , do you think his interest is in using this as a data source , or training material , or what ? professor e: Well , I I should maybe interject to say this started off with a discussion that I had with him , so we were trying to think of ways that his interests could interact with ours grad g: professor e: and I thought that if we were going to project into the future when we had a lot of data , and such things might be useful for that in or before we invested too much effort into that he should , with Jane 's help , look into some of the data that we 're already have and see , is there anything to this at all ? grad g: professor e: Is there any point which you think that , you know , you could gain some advantage and some potential use for it . Cuz it could be that you 'd look through it and you say " well , this is just the wrong task for for him to pursue his " grad g: Wrong , yeah . professor e: And and I got the impression from your mail that in fact there was enough things like this just in the little sample that that you looked at that that it 's plausible at least . , he was he he you know We met and he was gonna go and you know , y look through them more systematically professor e: Yeah . postdoc b: So it 's , you know , not a matter of a professor e: Yeah . professor e: So anyway , that 's that 's e a quite different thing from anything we 've talked about that , you know , might might might come out from some of this . , he 's talking about just using text postdoc b: That 's his major I mentioned several that w had to do with implications drawn from intonational contours phd c: pretty much , or ? postdoc b: and that wasn't as directly relevant to what he 's doing . postdoc b: inferences that you draw i from professor e: he certainly could use text , but we were in fact looking to see if there is there is there something in common between our interest in meetings and his interest in in in this stuff . grad g: And I imagine that transcripts of speech text that is speech probably has more of those than sort of prepared writing . postdoc b: Yeah , I don't think I would make that leap , because i in narratives , you know , if you spell out everything in a narrative , it can be really tedious , grad g: grad g: Yeah , I 'm just thinking , you know , when you 're when you 're face to face , you have a lot of backchannel and And postdoc b: Oh . And so I think it 's just easier to do that sort of broad inference jumping if it 's face to face . , so , if I just read that Dan was saying " we 're ahead of the game " in that in that context , postdoc b: Well Yeah . grad g: I might not realize that he was talking about disk space as opposed to anything else . postdoc b: I you know , I I had several that had to do with backchannels and this wasn't one of them . postdoc b: This this one really does m make you leap from So he said , you know , " we 're ahead of the game , w we have built - in downsampling " . postdoc b: And the inference , i if you had it written down , would be grad g: I guess it would be the same . But there are others that have backchannelling , it 's just he was less interested in those . , I f f f I 've @ @ d A minute , several minutes ago , I , like , briefly was was not listening and So who is " he " in this context ? phd c: Yeah , there 's a lot of pronoun phd f: OK . So I was just realizing we 've You guys have been talking about " he " for at least , I don't know , three three four minutes without ever mentioning the person 's name again . Actually to make it worse , Morgan uses " you " and " you " phd f: So this is this is this is gonna be a big , big problem if you want to later do , you know , indexing , or speech understanding of any sort . phd f: You just wrote this ? phd c: and he never said Li - He looked grad g: Well , I think he 's doing that intentionally , phd c: Right , so it 's great . grad g: aren't you ? phd c: So this is really great phd f: Right . phd c: because the thing is , because he 's looking at the per even for addressees in the conversation , phd d: Yeah . phd c: Yeah , if you have the P Z Ms you should be able to pick up what a person is looking at from their voice . postdoc b: Oh , but you 'd have the phd c: Put Morgan always like this postdoc b: You 'd have fainter phd c: and postdoc b: Wouldn't you get fainter reception out here ? professor e: Well , these grad g: Sure , but I think if I 'm talking like this ? Right now I 'm looking at Jane and talking , now I 'm looking at Chuck and talking , I don't think the microphones would pick up that difference . grad g: So if I 'm talking at you , or I 'm talking at you . professor e: I probably been affect No , I th I think I 've been affected by too many conversations where we were talking about lawyers and talking about and concerns about " oh gee is somebody going to say something bad ? " and so on . professor e: And so I so I 'm I 'm tending to stay away from people 's names even though postdoc b: I am too . phd c: Even though you could pick up later on , just from the acoustics who you were t who you were looking at . grad g: or or is that just too sensitive ? professor e: No no , it isn't sensitive at all . postdoc b: Well professor e: I was just I was just I was overreacting just because we 've been talking about it . professor e: It 's OK to postdoc b: I I came up with something from the Human Subjects people that I wanted to mention . , it fits into the m area of the mundane , but they did say You know , I asked her very specifically about this clause of how , you know , it says " no individuals will be identified , " in any publication using the data . " OK , well , individuals being identified , let 's say you have a a snippet that says , " Joe s thinks such - and - such about about this field , but I think he 's wrongheaded . " Now , we 're we 're gonna be careful not to have the " wrongheaded " part in there , but but you know , let 's say we say , you know , " Joe used to think so - and - so about this area , in his publication he says that but I think he 's changed his mind . Then the issue of of being able to trace Joe , because we know he 's well - known in this field , and all this and and tie it to the speaker , whose name was just mentioned a moment ago , can be sensitive . professor e: b But I postdoc b: So I think it 's really really kind of adaptive and wise to not mention names any more than we have to because if there 's a slanderous aspect to it , then how much to we wanna be able to have to remove ? professor e: Yeah , well , there 's that . But I I think also to some extent it 's just educating the Human Subjects people , in a way , because there 's If You know , there 's court transcripts , there 's there 's transcripts of radio shows people say people 's names all the time . It 's just that i you 're right that there 's more poten If we never say anybody 's name , then there 's no chance of of of slandering anybody , phd c: But , then it won't , if we if we professor e: but grad g: It 's not a meeting . postdoc b: Well , my feeling on it was that it wasn't really important who said it , you know . phd f: Well , if you ha since you have to go over the transcripts later anyway , you could make it one of the jobs of the people who do that to mark grad g: Well , we t we t we talked about this during the anon anonymization . grad g: If we wanna go through and extract from the audio and the written every time someone says a name . professor e: So it 's postdoc b: So , we need to talk about this later . I sorta knew I was doing it but it was phd f: Well , I still don't know who " he " is . phd c: No , you have to say , you still don't know who " he " is , with that prosody . , I I would like to move it into into what Jose has been doing postdoc b: Yeah . I I remind that me my first objective eh , in the project is to to study difference parameters to to find a a good solution to detect eh , the overlapping zone in eh speech recorded . But eh , tsk , ehhh In that way I I I begin to to study and to analyze the ehn the recorded speech eh the different session to to find and to locate and to mark eh the the different overlapping zone . And eh so eh I was eh I am transcribing the the first session and I I have found eh , eh one thousand acoustic events , eh besides the overlapping zones , eh I I the eh breaths eh aspiration eh , eh , talk eh , eh , clap , eh I don't know what is the different names eh you use to to name the the n speech phd a: Nonspeech sounds ? phd d: Yeah . grad g: Oh , I don't think we 've been doing it at that level of detail . Eh , I I I do I don't need to to to mmm to m to label the the different acoustic , but I prefer because eh I would like to to study if eh , I I will find eh , eh , a good eh parameters eh to detect overlapping I would like to to to test these parameters eh with the another eh , eh acoustic events , to nnn to eh to find what is the ehm the false eh , the false eh hypothesis eh , nnn , which eh are produced when we use the the ehm this eh parameter eh pitch eh , eh , difference eh , feature grad g: phd a: You know I think some of these that are the nonspeech overlapping events may be difficult even for humans to tell that there 's two there . phd a: if it 's a tapping sound , you wouldn't necessarily or , you know , something like that , it 'd be it might be hard to know that it was two separate events . grad g: Well You weren't talking about just overlaps phd d: Ye grad g: were you ? You were just talking about acoustic events . phd d: I I I I t I t I talk eh about eh acoustic events in general , grad g: Someone starts , someone stops Yeah . professor e: How many overlaps were there in it ? No no , how many of them were the overlaps of speech , though ? phd d: How many ? Eh almost eh three hundred eh in one session grad g: Oh , God ! phd d: in five eh in forty - five minutes . postdoc b: Does this ? So if you had an overlap involving three people , how many times was that counted ? phd d: Yeah , three people , two people . Eh , I would like to consider eh one people with difference noise eh in the background , be professor e: No no , but I think what she 's asking is if at some particular for some particular stretch you had three people talking , instead of two , did you call that one event ? phd d: Oh . This th I I I con I consider I consider eh an acoustic event , the overlapping zone , the period where three speaker or eh are talking together . grad g: Well So let 's postdoc b: For grad g: So let 's say me and Jane are talking at the same time , and then Liz starts talking also over all of us . phd d: Yeah ? grad g: Is there an event right here ? phd d: Eh no . For me is the overlapping zone , because because you you have s you have more one eh , more one voice eh , eh produced in a in in a moment . If professor e: So then , in the region between since there there is some continuous region , in between regions where there is only one person speaking . professor e: Is it Are you calling the beginning or the end of it the event , phd d: Yeah . professor e: or are you calling the entire length of it the event ? phd d: I consider the the , nnn the nnn , nnn eh , the entirety eh , eh , all all the time there were the voice has overlapped . , I 'm not considering eh the the ehm eh , the fact of eh , eh , for example , what did you say ? Eh at first eh , eh two talkers are , eh speaking , and eh , eh a third person eh join to to that . For me , it 's eh it 's eh , all overlap zone , with eh several numbers of speakers is eh , eh the same acoustic event . Wi - but , without any mark between the zone of the overlapping zone with two speakers eh speaking together , and the zone with the three speakers . grad g: Well , but But you could imagine that three people talking has a different spectral characteristic than two . phd d: I I don't know what eh will will happen with the grad g: Yep . grad g: That 's a lot of overlap , phd d: Yeah ? professor e: So again , that 's that 's three three hundred in forty - five minutes that are that are speakers , just speakers . postdoc b: But a a a th professor e: So that 's about eight per minute . postdoc b: But a thousand events in twelve minutes , that 's phd d: Yeah , but Yeah . postdoc b: Well , but a thousand taps in eight minutes is a l in twelve minutes is a lot . phd c: Actually phd d: I I con I consider I consider acoustic events eh , the silent too . grad g: Silence starting or silence ending phd d: Yeah , silent , ground to bec to detect eh because I consider acoustic event all the things are not eh speech . silent , I I I I don't I I haven't the eh I I would like to to do a stylistic study professor e: Yeah . phd d: and give you eh with the report eh from eh the the study from the the the session one session . When eh eh I w I I was eh look at eh nnn , the difference speech file , for example , eh if eh we use the ehm the mixed file , to to transcribe , the the events and the words , I I saw that eh the eh speech signal , collected by the eh this kind of mike eh of this kind of mike , eh are different from the eh mixed signal eh , we eh collected by headphone . The the the I I I knew that eh the signal eh , eh would be different , but eh the the problem is eh , eh we eh detected eh difference events in the speech file eh collected by by that mike qui compared with the mixed file . And so if when you transcribe eh only eh using the nnn the mixed file , it 's possible eh if you use the transcription to evaluate a different system , it 's possible you eh in the eh i and you use the eh speech file collected by the eh fet mike , to eh to nnn to do the experiments with the the system , professor e: phd d: its possible to evaluate eh , eh or to consider eh acoustic events that which you marked eh in the mixed file , but eh they don't appear in the eh speech signal eh collected by the by the mike . The the reason that I generated the mixed file was for IBM to do word level transcription , not speech event transcription . grad g: So I agree that if someone wants to do speech event transcription , that the mixed signals here phd d: Yeah . grad g: if I 'm tapping on the table , you it 's not gonna show up on any of the mikes , but it 's gonna show up rather loudly in the PZM . So and I I I say eh that eh , eh , or this eh only because eh I c I I in my opinion , it 's necessary to eh to eh to put the transcription on the speech file , collected by the objective signal . phd d: the the the signal collected by the eh , the real mike in the future , in the prototype to to eh correct the initial eh segmentation eh with the eh real speech professor e: professor e: Yeah , well , just , just in that that one s ten second , or whatever it was , example that Adam had that that we we passed on to others a few months ago , there was that business where I g I guess it was Adam and Jane were talking at the same time and and , in the close - talking mikes you couldn't hear the overlap , and in the distant mike you could . So yeah , it 's clear that if you wanna study if you wanna find all the places where there were overlap , it 's probably better to use a distant mike . professor e: On the other hand , there 's other phenomena that are going on at the same time for which it might be useful to look at the close - talking mikes , phd d: Yeah . phd c: But why can't you use the combination of the close - talking mikes , time aligned ? professor e: so it 's grad g: If you use the combination of the close - talking mikes , you would hear Jane interrupting me , but you wouldn't hear the paper rustling . And so if you 're interested in phd c: I if you 're interested in speakers overlapping other speakers and not the other kinds of nonspeech , that 's not a problem , professor e: Some of it 's masking masked . grad g: Although the other issue is that the mixed close - talking mikes , I 'm doing weird normalizations and things like that . phd d: I I I think eh I saw the nnn the eh but eh I eh I have eh any results . I I I saw the the speech file collected by eh the fet mike , and eh eh signal eh to eh to noise eh relation is eh low . phd d: And I I found that nnn that eh , ehm , pr probably , grad g: Did Did you phd d: I 'm not sure eh by the moment , but it 's it 's probably that eh a lot of eh , eh for example , in the overlapping zone , on eh in in several eh parts of the files where you you can find eh , eh eh , smooth eh eh speech eh from eh one eh eh talker in the in the meeting , professor e: phd d: it 's probably in in that eh in in those files you you can not find you can not process because eh it 's confused with with noise . But eh my idea is to to process only nnn , this eh nnn , this kind of s of eh speech . I 'm not sure it 's a good idea , but eh professor e: No i grad g: Well , it 's more realistic but it 'll it 'll be a lot harder . professor e: Well , it 'd be hard , but on the other hand as you point out , if your if i if if your concern is to get the overlapping people people 's speech , you will you will get that somewhat better . professor e: Are you making any use you were you were working with th the data that had already been transcribed . professor e: Now did you make any use of that ? See I was wondering cuz we st we have these ten hours of other stuff that is not yet transcribed . professor e: Do you phd d: The the transcription by Jane , t eh i eh , I I I want to use to to nnn , eh to put i i it 's a reference for me . But eh the transcription eh for example , I I don't I I 'm not interested in the in the in the words , transcription words , eh transcribed eh eh in eh follow in the in the in the speech file , but eh eh Jane eh for example eh put a mark eh at the beginning eh of each eh talker , in the in the meeting , eh she she nnn includes information about the zone where eh there are eh there is an overlapping zone . But eh there isn't any any mark , time temporal mark , to to c eh to mmm e - heh , to label the beginning and the end of the of the professor e: Right , so she is phd d: ta I 'm I I I think eh we need this information to professor e: Right . So the twelve you you it took you twelve hours of course this included maybe some some time where you were learning about what what you wanted to do , but but , it took you something like twelve hours to mark the forty - five minutes , your grad g: Twelve minutes . professor e: I thought you did forty - five minutes of phd d: No , forty - five minutes is the is the session , all the session . phd d: Tw - twelve hours of work to to segment eh and label eh twelve minutes from a session of part of f professor e: Oh . I I consider all the all the session because eh I I count the nnn the nnn the overlappings marked by by Jane , professor e: Oh , OK . So it 's three hundred in forty - five minutes , but you have you have time , marked twelve minute the the the overlaps in twelve minutes of it . phd f: So , can I ask can I ask whether you found , you know , how accurate Jane 's labels were as far as grad g: Well , not just the overlaps , everything . phd f: you know , did she miss some overlaps ? or did she n ? phd d: But , by by the moment , I I don't compare , my my temporal mark with eh Jane , but eh I I want to do it . Because eh eh i per perhaps I have eh errors in the in the marks , I and if I I compare with eh Jane , it 's probably I I I can correct and and and to get eh eh a more accurately eh eh transcription in the file . phd c: Well , not only a word level , but actually phd d: Well phd f: I 'm expect I 'm not expecting phd d: No , it 's phd c: you didn't need to show the exact point of interruption , you just were showing at the level of the phrase or the level of the speech spurt , or grad g: Right . postdoc b: And and sometimes , you know , it was like you could have an overlap where someone said something in the middle , phd d: Yeah . postdoc b: but , yeah , w it just wasn't important for our purposes to have it that i disrupt that unit in order to have , you know , a the words in the order in which they were spoken , it would have it would have been hard with the interface that we have . postdoc b: Now , my a Adam 's working on a of course , on a revised overlapping interface , phd d: - huh . phd d: I I I think It 's it 's a good eh work , postdoc b: but phd d: but eh I think we need eh eh more information . phd f: I expect you to find more overlaps than than Jane grad g: Always need more for postdoc b: Yeah . I I have to go to phd f: because you 're looking at it at a much more detailed level . professor e: I have grad g: But if it takes sixty to one professor e: Well , I but I have a suggestion about that . , obviously this is very , very time - consuming , and you 're finding lots of things which I 'm sure are gonna be very interesting , but in the interests of making progress , might I s how how would it affect your time if you only marked speaker overlaps ? phd d: Only . professor e: but only mark speaker Do you think that would speed it up quite a bit ? phd d: OK . I I I I w I I wanted to professor e: Do y do you think that would speed it up ? , speed up your your your marking ? phd d: nnn , I don't understand very . professor e: Now , my suggestion was for the other thirty - three phd d: On - only to mark only to mark overlapping zone , but professor e: Yeah , and my question is , if you did that , if you followed my suggestion , would it take much less time ? phd d: Oh , yeah . professor e: Then I think it 's a good idea , because it phd d: Sure , because I I need a lot of time to to put the label or to do that . professor e: There 's there 's continual noise from fans and so forth , and there is more impulsive noise from taps and so forth phd d: Yeah . We know that all that 's there and it 's a g worthwhile thing to study , but obviously it takes a lot of time to mark all of these things . professor e: Whereas th i I would think that you we can study more or less as a distinct phenomenon the overlapping of people talking . Then you can get the Cuz you need If it 's three hundred i i it sounds like you probably only have fifty or sixty or seventy events right now that are really phd d: Yeah . professor e: And and you need to have a lot more than that to have any kind of even visual sense of of what 's going on , much less any kind of reasonable statistics . phd c: Now , why do you need to mark speaker overlap by hand if you can infer it from the relative energy in the grad g: Well , that 's That 's what I was gonna bring up . phd c: you shouldn't need to do this p completely by hand , professor e: OK , yeah . professor e: So the idea was that what he was going to be doing was experimenting with different measures such as the increase in energy , such as the energy in the LPC residuals , such as there 's a bunch of things , increased energy is - is sort of an obvious one . professor e: and , it 's not obvious , you could you could do the dumbest thing and get get it ninety percent of the time . But when you start going past that and trying to do better , it 's not obvious what combination of features is gonna give you the you know , the right detector . And so the i the idea of the manual marking was to say " OK this , i you know , it 's it 's really here " . phd a: But I think Liz is saying why not get it out of the transcripts ? phd c: What is get it from the close - talking mikes . phd c: A or ge get a first pass from those , professor e: We t we t w we t we talked about that . phd c: and then go through sort of It 'd be a lot faster probably to phd f: And you can grad g: Yeah , that 's his , professor e: We we we talked about that . s But so it 's a bootstrapping thing and the thing is , phd c: Yeah , I just professor e: the idea was , i we i i we thought it would be useful for him to look at the data anyway , and and then whatever he could mark would be helpful , phd c: Right . You know , do you bootstrap from a simple measurement which is right most of the time and then you g do better , or do you bootstrap from some human being looking at it and then then do your simple measurements , from the close - talking mike . phd c: Well , that 's what I wonder , because or how bad it is , professor e: Well phd c: be , because that would be interesting grad g: I 'm working on a program to do that , and phd c: especially because the bottleneck is the transcription . phd c: so it seems like one kind of project that 's not perfect , but , that you can get the training data for pretty quickly is , you know , if you infer form the close - talking mikes where the on - off points are of speech , professor e: Right , we discussed that . phd c: you know , how can we detect that from a far - field ? grad g: And postdoc b: Oh . grad g: I 've I 've written a program to do that , phd c: OK , I 'm sorry I missed the grad g: and it , professor e: It 's OK . And , it seems to work , I 've I 'm sort of fiddling with the parameters , to get it to actually generate something , and I haven't I don't what I 'm working on was working on was getting it to a form where we can import it into the user interface that we have , into Transcriber . I 've worked on it for about half a day , grad h: I have to go . grad g: so give me another half day and I we 'll have something we can play with . professor e: See , this is where we really need the Meeting Recorder query stuff to be working , because we 've had these meetings and we 've had this discussion about this , and I 'm sort of remembering a little bit about what we decided , phd c: Right . phd c: It professor e: So , I think it was partly that , you know , give somebody a chance to actually look at the data and see what these are like , partly that we have e some ground truth to compare against , you know , when when he he gets his thing going , grad g: But professor e: and phd c: Well , it 's definitely good to have somebody look at it . I was just thinking as a way to speed up you know , the amount of postdoc b: postdoc b: Was that there m there was this already a script I believe that Dan had written , that handle bleedthrough , cuz you have this this close you have contamination from other people who speak loudly . So I I haven't tried that , but that If It it might be something it might be a good way of cleaning it up a little . postdoc b: So , some thought of maybe having Yeah , having that be a preprocessor and then run it through yours . professor e: But but that 's a refinement postdoc b: That 's what we were discussing . professor e: and I think we wanna see try the simple thing first , cuz you add this complex thing up afterwards that does something good y y yo you sort of wanna see what the simple thing does first . professor e: But , having having somebody have some experience , again , with with with marking it from a human standpoint , we 're , I don't expect Jose to to do it for f fifty hours of of speech , but we if if he could speed up what he was doing by just getting the speaker overlaps so that we had it , say , for forty - five minutes , then at least we 'd have three hundred examples of it . professor e: And when when Adam was doing his automatic thing he could then compare to that and see what it was different . phd a: You know , I did I did something almost identical to this at one of my previous jobs , and it works pretty well . , i almost exactly what you described , an energy detector with a median filter , you look for runs . phd a: And so I think doing that to generate these possibilities and then going through and saying yes or no on them would be a quick way to to do it . grad g: Yeah , do you have a patent on it ? phd a: It was when I was working for the government . postdoc b: Well , is this something that we could just co - opt , or is it ? phd a: Nah . I think I think it 's phd a: Yeah , he 's it it doesn't take a long time . I just thought if it was tried and true , then and he 's gone through additional levels of of development . Although if you if you have some parameters like what 's a good window size for the median filter phd a: Oh ! I have to remember . phd f: They grad g: I was doing pretty short , you know , tenth of a second , sorts of numbers . professor e: I don't know , it if if we want to So , maybe we should move on to other other things in limited time . postdoc b: Can I ask one question about his statistics ? So so in the tw twelve minutes , if we took three hundred and divided it by four , which is about the length of twelve minutes , i , I 'd expect like there should be seventy - five overlaps . postdoc b: Did you find more than seventy - five overlaps in that period , or ? phd d: More than ? postdoc b: More than How many overlaps in your twelve minutes ? phd d: How many ? Eh , not @ @ I Onl - only I I transcribe eh only twelve minutes from the professor e: Yeah . phd d: but eh I I don't co eh I don't count eh the the overlap . phd d: I consider I I The the nnn The the three hundred is eh considered only you your transcription . grad g: I b I bet they 're more , because the beginning of the meeting had a lot more overlaps than than sort of the middle . grad g: Because i we 're we 're dealing with the , in the early meetings , we 're recording while we 're saying who 's talking on what microphone , and things like that , phd d: Yeah . professor e: So so I was gonna ask , I guess about any any other things that that that either of you wanted to talk about , especially since Andreas is leaving in five minutes , that that you wanna go with . phd c: Can I just ask about the data , like very straightforward question is where we are on the amount of data and the amount of transcribed data , just cuz I 'm I wanted to get a feel for that to sort of be able to know what what can be done first and like how many meetings are we recording professor e: Right so there 's this this There 's this forty - five minute piece that Jane transcribed . phd c: and professor e: That piece was then sent to IBM so they could transcribe so we have some comparison point . Then there 's s a larger piece that 's been recorded and put on CD - ROM and sent to IBM . phd c: How many meetings is that ? Like how many grad g: What 's that ? professor e: That was about ten hours , and there was about phd c: t ten It 's like ten meetings or something ? - huh . And then then we phd a: Ten meetings that have been sent to IBM ? phd c: And professor e: Yeah . grad g: Well , I haven't sent them yet because I was having this problem with the missing files . phd a: H how many total have we recorded now , altogether ? professor e: We 're saying about twelve hours . And we 're recording only this meeting , like continuously we 're only recording this one now ? or ? professor e: No . No , so the the that 's the that 's the biggest one , chunk so far , grad g: Nope . phd c: Do they meet every week , professor e: And then there phd c: or every professor e: they do . w w And we talked to them about recording some more and we 're going to , we 've started having a morning meeting , today i starting a w a week or two ago , on the front - end issues , and we 're recording those , there 's a network services and applications group here who 's agreed to have their meetings recorded , phd c: Great . So actually , we 're gonna h start having a a pretty significant chunk and so , you know , Adam 's sort of struggling with trying to get things to be less buggy , and come up quicker when they do crash and stuff things like that , now that the things are starting to happen . So right now , yeah , I th I 'd say the data is predominantly meeting meetings , but there are scattered other meetings in it and that that amount is gonna grow so that the meeting meetings will probably ultimately i if we 're if we collect fifty or sixty hours , the meeting meetings it will probably be , you know , twenty or thirty percent of it , not not not eighty or ninety . phd c: So there 's probably there 's three to four a week , grad g: That 's what we 're aiming for . professor e: Yeah and th the the other thing is I 'm not pos I 'm sort of thinking as we 've been through this a few times , that I really don't know maybe you wanna do it once for the novelty , but I don't know if in general we wanna have meetings that we record from outside this group do the digits . in fact , the morning group is really motivated cuz they 're working on connected digits , so it 's grad g: Actually that 's something I wanted to ask , is I have a bunch of scripts to help with the transcription of the digits . grad g: We don't have to hand - transcribe the digits because we 're reading them and I have those . grad g: And so I have some scripts that let you very quickly extract the sections of each utterance . , if I did that , is someone gonna be working on it ? professor e: yeah , I I think definitely s so Absolutely . grad g: is it something of interest ? professor e: Yeah , whoever we have working on the acoustics for the Meeting Recorder are gonna start with that . , I I 'm I 'm interested in it , I just don't have time to do it now . phd f: I was these meetings I 'm sure someone thought of this , but these this reading of the numbers would be extremely helpful to do adaptation . phd c: Actually I have o grad g: I I would really like someone to do adaptation . grad g: So if we got someone interested in that , I think it would be great for Meeting Recorder . professor e: Well , one of the things I wanted to do , that I I talked to to Don about , is one of the possible things he could do or m also , we could have someone else do it , is to do block echo cancellation , grad g: Since it 's the same people over and over . professor e: to try to get rid of some of the effects of the the the far - field effects . , we have the party line has been that echo cancellation is not the right way to handle the situation phd f: professor e: because people move around , and , if if it 's if it 's not a simple echo , like a cross - talk kind of echo , but it 's actually room acoustics , it 's it 's it 's you can't really do inversion , phd f: professor e: and even echo cancellation is going to be something It may you Someone may be moving enough that you are not able to adapt quickly and so the tack that we 've taken is more " lets come up with feature approaches and multi - stream approaches and so forth , that will be robust to it for the recognizer and not try to create a clean signal " . But it occurred to me a few months ago that party lines are always , you know , sort of dangerous . And so we haven't had anybody try to do a good serious job on echo cancellation and we should know how well that can do . So that 's something I 'd like somebody to do at some point , just take these digits , take the far - field mike signal , and the close mike signal , and apply really good echo cancellation . , there was a have been some nice talks recently by by Lucent on on their b phd f: . professor e: the block echo cancellation particularly appealed to me , you know , trying and change it sample by sample , but you have some reasonable sized blocks . And , you know , th phd a: W what is the the artifact you try to you 're trying to get rid of when you do that ? phd f: Ciao . professor e: so it 's it you have a a direct , what 's the difference in If you were trying to construct a linear filter , that would phd f: I 'm signing off . that would subtract off the parts of the signal that were the aspects of the signal that were different between the close - talk and the distant . You know , so so I guess in most echo cancellation Yeah , so you Given that Yeah , so you 're trying to So you 'd There 's a a distance between the close and the distant mikes so there 's a time delay there , and after the time delay , there 's these various reflections . And if you figure out well what 's the there 's a a least squares algorithm that adjusts itself adjusts the weight so that you try to subtract essentially to subtract off different different reflections . Right ? So let 's take the simple case where you just had you had some some delay in a satellite connection or something and then there 's a there 's an echo . phd a: So that would mean like if you were listening to the data that was recorded on one of those . , just the raw data , you would you might hear kind of an echo ? And and then this noise cancellation would get professor e: Well , I 'm I 'm I 'm saying That 's a simplified version of what 's really happening . What 's really happening is Well , when I 'm talking to you right now , you 're getting the direct sound from my speech , but you 're also getting , the indirect sound that 's bounced around the room a number of times . OK ? So now , if you try to r you To completely remove the effect of that is sort of impractical for a number of technical reasons , but I but not to try to completely remove it , that is , invert the the room response , but just to try to eliminate some of the the effect of some of the echos . , a number of people have done this so that , say , if you 're talking to a speakerphone , it makes it more like it would be , if you were talking right up to it . You say I I I want to use this this item but I want to subtract off various kinds of echos . So you construct a filter , and you have this this filtered version of the speech gets gets subtracted off from the original speech . phd a: Kind of a clean up thing , that professor e: It 's a clean up thing . professor e: So , echo cancelling is is , you know , commonly done in telephony , and and and it 's sort of the obvious thing to do in this situation if you if , you know , you 're gonna be talking some distance from a mike . phd a: When , I would have meetings with the folks in Cambridge when I was at BBN over the phone , they had a some kind of a special speaker phone and when they would first connect me , it would come on and we 'd hear all this noise . And then it was And then it would come on and it was very clear , professor e: Yeah . So it 's taking samples , it 's doing adaptation , it 's adjusting weights , and then it 's getting the sum . So , anyway that 's that 's kind of a reasonable thing that I 'd like to have somebody try somebody look And and the digits would be a reasonable thing to do that with . I think that 'd be enough data plenty of data to do that with , and i for that sort of task you wouldn't care whether it was large vocabulary speech or anything . postdoc b: Is Brian Kingsbury 's work related to that , or is it a different type of reverberation ? professor e: Brian 's Kingsbury 's work is an example of what we did f f from the opposite dogma . Right ? Which is what I was calling the " party line " , which is that doing that sort of thing is not really what we want . We want something more flexible , i i where people might change their position , and there might be , you know There 's also oh yeah , noise . It 's if you have a clean situation but you just have some delays , Then we 'll figure out the right the right set of weights for your taps for your filter in order to produce the effect of those those echos . But if there 's noise , then the very signal that it 's looking at is corrupted so that it 's decision about what the right you know , right right delays are is , is right delayed signal is is is is incorrect . And so , in a noisy situation , also in a in a situation that 's very reverberant with long reverberation times and really long delays , it 's it 's sort of typically impractical . So for those kind of reasons , and also a a c a complete inversion , if you actually I mentioned that it 's kind of hard to really do the inversion of the room acoustics . , that 's difficult because often times the the the system transfer function is such that when it 's inverted you get something that 's unstable , and so , if you you do your estimate of what the system is , and then you try to invert it , you get a filter that actually , you know , rings , and and goes to infinity . So it 's so there 's there 's there 's that sort of technical reason , and the fact that things move , and there 's air currents there 's all sorts of all sorts of reasons why it 's not really practical . So for all those kinds of reasons , we we we sort of , concluded we didn't want to in do inversion , and we 're even pretty skeptical of echo cancellation , which isn't really inversion , and we decided to do this approach of taking , just picking features , which were will give you more something that was more stable , in the presence of , or absence of , room reverberation , and that 's what Brian was trying to do . I guess you you actually already said this thing about the about the consent forms , which was that we now don't have to So this was the human subjects folks who said this , or that that ? postdoc b: The a apparently , we 're gonna do a revised form , of course . but once a person has signed it once , then that 's valid for a certain number of meetings . So I think from a s practical standpoint , maybe we could have them do it once every ten meetings , or something . It won't be that many people who do it that often , but just , you know , so long as they don't forget that they 've done it , I guess . , back on the data thing , so there 's this sort of one hour , ten hour , a hundred hour sort of thing that that we have . We have we have an hour that that is transcribed , we have we have twelve hours that 's recorded but not transcribed , and at the rate we 're going , by the end of the semester we 'll have , I don't know , forty or fifty or something , if we if this really Well , do we have that much ? phd c: Not really . professor e: Let 's see , we have phd c: So that 's what You know , that professor e: eight weeks , is phd c: So that 's not a lot of hours . professor e: Eight weeks times three hours is twenty - four , so that 's Yeah , so like thirty thirty hours ? phd a: Three Three hours . I was starting to think of some projects where you would use well , similar to what we talked about with energy detection on the close - talking mikes . There are a number of interesting questions that you can ask about how interactions happen in a meeting , that don't require any transcription . So what are the patterns , the energy patterns over the meeting ? And I 'm really interested in this but we don't have a whole lot of data . So I was thinking , you know , we 've got the room set up and you can always think of , also for political reasons , if ICSI collected you know , two hundred hours , that looks different than forty hours , even if we don't transcribe it ourselves , professor e: But I don't think we 're gonna stop at the end of this semester . phd c: so professor e: Right ? So , I th I think that if we are able to keep that up for a few months , we are gonna have more like a hundred hours . phd c: is there Are there any other meetings here that we can record , especially meetings that have some kind of conflict in them or some kind of deci , that are less well I don't , that have some more emotional aspects to them , or strong grad g: We had some good ones earlier . phd c: There 's laughter , I 'm talking more about strong differences of opinion meetings , maybe with manager types , or grad g: I think it 's hard to record those . phd c: To be allowed to record them ? postdoc b: It 's also likely that people will cancel out afterwards . professor e: Yeah , people will get postdoc b: But I but I wanted to raise the KPFA idea . So I I , I I 'd mentioned to Adam , and that was another thing I was gonna talk , mention to them before that there 's It it oc it occurred to me that we might be able to get some additional data by talking to acquaintances in local broadcast media . Because , you know , we had talked before about the problem about using found data , that that it 's just set up however they have it set up and we don't have any say about it and it 's typically one microphone , in a , or and and so it doesn't really give us the the the characteristics we want . But , it did occur to me that we could go to friends in broadcast media and say " hey you have this panel show , or this you know , this discussion show , and can you record multi - channel ? " And they may be willing to record it with phd c: With lapel mikes or something ? professor e: Well , they probably already use lapel , but they might be able to have it it wouldn't be that weird for them to have another mike that was somewhat distant . professor e: It wouldn't be exactly this setup , but it would be that sort of thing , and what we were gonna get from UW , you know , assuming they they they start recording , isn't als also is not going to be this exact setup . the other thing that occurred to me after we had that discussion , in fact , is that it 's even possible , since of course , many radio shows are not live , that we could invite them to have like some of their record some of their shows here . postdoc b: Wow ! phd c: Well Or The thing is , they 're not as averse to wearing one of these head - mount , they 're on the radio , grad g: Right , as we are . phd c: Th - that 's an a side of style a style that we 're not collecting here , so it 'd be great . professor e: And and the , the other side to it was the what which is where we were coming from I 'll I 'll talk to you more about it later is that is that there 's there 's the radio stations and television stations already have stuff worked out presumably , related to , you know , legal issues and and permissions and all that . So I think it 's something we should look into , you know , we 'll collect what we collect here hopefully they will collect more at UW also and and maybe we have this other source . But yeah I think that it 's not unreasonable to aim at getting , you know , significantly in excess of a hundred hours . The thing was , I was hoping that we could @ @ in the under this controlled situation we could at least collect , you know , thirty to fifty hours . And at the rate we 're going we 'll get pretty close to that I think this semester . Yeah I was mostly trying to think , " OK , if you start a project , within say a month , you know , how much data do you have to work with . And you you wanna s you wanna sort of fr freeze your your data for awhile so right now and we don't have the transcripts back yet from IBM right ? Do Oh , do we now ? professor e: Well , we don't even have it for this f you know , forty - five minutes , that was phd c: So , not complaining , I was just trying to think , you know , what kinds of projects can you do now versus six months from now professor e: Yeah . So I was thinking right now it 's sort of this exploratory stuff where you you look at the data , you use some primitive measures and get a feeling for what the scatter plots look like , grad g: Right . professor e: and and and and meanwhile we collect , and it 's more like yeah , three months from now , or six months from now you can you can do a lot of other things . phd c: Cuz I 'm not actually sure , just logistically that I can spend you know , I don't wanna charge the time that I have on the project too early , before there 's enough data to make good use of the time . phd c: anyway , I shouldn't say too much , but if someone came that was great and wanted to do some real work and they have to end by the end of this school year in the spring , how much data will I have to work with , with that person . And so it 's professor e: i Yeah , so I would think , exploratory things now . , three months from now , the transcriptions I think are a bit of an unknown cuz we haven't gotten those back yet as far as the timing , but I think as far as the collection , it doesn't seem to me l like , unreasonable to say that in January , you know , ro roughly which is roughly three months from now , we should have at least something like , you know , twenty - five , thirty hours . phd c: And we just don't know about the transcription part of that , professor e: So that 's postdoc b: Yeah , we need to I think that there 's a possibility that the transcript will need to be adjusted afterwards , phd c: so . , it postdoc b: and es especially since these people won't be used to dealing with multi - channel transcriptions . postdoc b: So I think that we 'll need to adjust some And also if we wanna add things like , well , more refined coding of overlaps , then definitely I think we should count on having an extra pass through . There 'd be no reason why a person couldn't get together several , you know , friends , and come and argue about a topic if they wanted to , right ? professor e: If they really have something they wanna talk about as opposed to something @ @ , what we 're trying to stay away from was artificial constructions , but I think if it 's a real Why not ? Yeah . postdoc b: You could do this , phd c: Well yeah , postdoc b: you know . phd c: or just if you 're if you ha If there are meetings here that happen that we can record even if we don't have them do the digits , or maybe have them do a shorter digit thing like if it was , you know , one string of digits , or something , they 'd probably be willing to do . grad g: We don't have to do the digits at all if we don't want to . phd c: Then , having the data is very valuable , cuz I think it 's politically better for us to say we have this many hours of audio data , especially with the ITR , if we put in a proposal on it . , whether it 's transcribed or not , is another issue , but there 's there are research questions you can answer without the transcriptions , or at least that you can start to answer . phd a: Would it help at all , we 're already talking about sort of two levels of detail in meetings . One is without doing the digits Or , I guess the full - blown one is where you do the digits , and everything , and then talk about doing it without digits , what if we had another level , just to collect data , which is without the headsets and we just did the table - mounted stuff . I 'm really scared grad g: It seems like it 's a big part of this corpus is to have the close - talking mikes . phd c: or at least , like , me personally ? I would I couldn't use that data . phd c: So it 's a great idea , professor e: Yeah , I I b By the by the way , I don't think the transcriptions are actually , in the long run , such a big bottleneck . phd c: and if it were true than I would just do that , but it 's not that bad like the room is not the bottleneck , and we have enough time in the room , it 's getting the people to come in and put on the and get the setup going . Right ? And and d Do you have any idea when when the you 'll be able to send the ten hours to them ? grad g: Well , I 've been burning two C Ds a day , which is about all I can do with the time I have . So early next week we send it to them , and then then we check with them to see if they 've got it and we we start , you know asking about the timing for it . professor e: So I think once they get it sorted out about how they 're gonna do it , which I think they 're pretty well along on , cuz they were able to read the files and so on . professor e: Right ? grad g: Yeah , but professor e: Well grad g: Yeah , who knows where they are . professor e: Yeah , but You know , so they they they have you know , they 're volunteering their time and they have a lot of other things to do , phd c: What if grad g: Yeah , you we can't complain . professor e: right ? But they But at any rate , they 'll I I think once they get that sorted out , they 're they 're making cassettes there , then they 're handing it to someone who they who 's who is doing it , and I think it 's not going to be I don't think it 's going to be that much more of a deal for them to do thirty hours then to do one hour , I think . phd c: Really ? So it 's the amount of professor e: It 's it 's just getting it going . phd c: I don't know , if there 's any way without too much more overhead , even if we don't ship it right away to IBM even if we just collect it here for awhile , to record you know , two or three more meeting a week , just to have the data , even if they 're not doing the digits , but they do wear the headphones ? professor e: But the lunch meetings are pretty much one person getting up and phd c: No , I meant , sorry , the meetings where people eat their lunch downstairs , maybe they don't wanna be recorded , but grad g: Oh , and we 're just chatting ? phd c: Just the ch the chatting . phd c: I actually I actually think that 's useful data , the chatting , grad g: Yeah , the problem with that is I would I think I would feel a little constrained to You know ? , some of the meetings phd c: but OK . phd c: Alright , so I 'll just throw it out there , if anyone knows of one more m or two more wee meetings per week that happen at ICSI , that we could record , I think it would be worth it . Well , we should also check with Mari again , because they because they were really intending , you know , maybe just didn't happen , but they were really intending to be duplicating this in some level . And there 's a lot of different meetings at UW really m a lot more than we have here right cuz we 're not right on campus , grad g: Right . phd a: Is the , notion of recording any of Chuck 's meetings dead in the water , or is that still a possibility ? professor e: they seem to have some problems with it . , but , again , Jerry is Jerry 's open So , we have two speech meetings , one network meeting , Jerry was open to it but I I s One of the things that I think is a little a little bit of a limitation , there is a think when the people are not involved in our work , we probably can't do it every week . You know ? I I I I think that that people are gonna feel are gonna feel a little bit constrained . Now , it might get a little better if we don't have them do the digits all the time . And the then so then they can just really sort of try to put the mikes on and then just charge in and grad g: Yep . phd c: What if we give people you know , we cater a lunch in exchange for them having their meeting here or something ? postdoc b: Well , you know , I I do think eating while you 're doing a meeting is going to be increasing the noise . postdoc b: But I had another question , which is , you know , in principle , w , I know that you don't want artificial topics , phd c: Alright , alright , alright . postdoc b: but it does seem to me that we might be able to get subjects from campus to come down and do something that wouldn't be too artificial . postdoc b: and i you know , people who are Because , you know , there 's also this constraint . We d it 's like , you know , the the goldibears goldi goldilocks , it 's like you don't want meetings that are too large , but you don't want meetings that are too small . And a and it just seems like maybe we could exploit the subj human subject p p pool , in the positive sense of the word . phd a: Well , even , coming down from campus is sort of a big thing , but what about postdoc b: We could pay subjects . phd a: or what about people in the in the building ? phd c: Yeah , I was thinking , there 's all these other peo phd a: there 's the State of California downstairs , and phd c: Yeah . grad g: I just really doubt that any of the State of California meetings would be recordable and then releasable to the general public . grad g: So I I talked with some people at the Haas Business School who are i who are interested in speech recognition phd c: Alright , well . grad g: and , they sort of hummed and hawed and said " well maybe we could have meetings down here " , but then I got email from them that said " no , we decided we 're not really interested and we don't wanna come down and hold meetings . phd a: What about Joachim , maybe he can professor e: But but we c But I think , you know , we get some scattered things from this and that . professor e: i I have better contacts in radio than in television , but phd a: You could get a lot of lively discussions from those radio ones . phd c: Well , and they 're already they 're these things are already recorded , grad g: Yep . phd c: we don't have to ask them to even and I 'm not sure wh how they record it , but they must record from individual professor e: n Well No , I 'm not talking about ones that are already recorded . I 'm talking about new ones phd c: Why why not ? professor e: because because because we would be asking them to do something different . I know for instance Mark Liberman was interested in in LDC getting data , and professor e: Right , that 's the found data idea . professor e: But what I 'm saying is if I talk to people that I know who do these th who produce these things we could ask them if they could record an extra channel , let 's say , of a distant mike . So , since I 'm interested in the distant mike stuff , I wanna make sure that there is at least that somewhere phd c: Right . professor e: and But if we ask them to do that they might be intrigued enough by the idea that they might be e e willing to the I might be able to talk them into it . We 're getting towards the end of our disk space , so we should think about trying to wrap up here . Well I don't why don't we why d u why don't we turn them turn grad g: OK , leave leave them on for a moment until I turn this off , cuz that 's when it crashed last time <doc-sep>grad e: I think it 's actually phd d: What is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: Ah . grad e: that I think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd b: When the power went out the other day and I restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: no , it doesn't it doesn't clear those necessarily , phd d: Oh wait It it doesn't clear them , OK . grad e: It 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . phd d: But that 's usually the meeting that I recorded , and it neve it doesn't crash on me . phd b: Well this wasn't Actually , this wasn't a before your meeting , this was , Tuesday afternoon when , Robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: Oh well . professor c: I don't know when would be a good excuse for it , but I just can't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . You know ? You wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . Everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: And we 'll just all leave , phd b: And then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd b: If you wanna know what professor c: Actually isn't that what we have been doing ? phd d: Yeah . professor c: What are we doing ? grad e: I Since I 've been gone all week , I didn't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: Yeah , and I 'm just grad e: Do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: I wouldn't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: What conference ? phd d: I had one question about grad e: Yeah , really . The next , phd d: Next weekend ? grad e: Next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: That is right . phd d: Sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: It 's like the grad e: A week from Saturday . phd d: So , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: No , but that would be a good idea . professor c: Why don't we w phd f: So so the deal is that I can , I can be available after , like ten thirty or something . I don't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: They 're not even gonna be here until eleven or so . grad e: Eurospeech is due on Friday and then I 'm going down to San , San Jose Friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late Saturday that 's a good thing . grad e: They 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: Yeah , and they 'll end up here . professor c: So , i I I will be , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: Oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but I still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . grad e: But , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: Well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next Thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: Will we have time to , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the IBM transcribers by then , or ? grad e: Oh yeah . grad e: So have you heard back from Brian about that , Chuck ? phd b: Yes , he 's I I 'm sorry , I should have forwarded that along . , oh I I think I mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be That 's easy for them to do . So , oh , though Thi - Thilo isn't here , but , I I have the program to insert the beeps . What I don't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . So do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: He 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to IBM and have them try it out ? postdoc a: He generated , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was Robustness rather than EDU so I guess depends on whether we 're willing to use Robustness ? phd b: Well for this experiment I think we can use pre pretty much anything . phd b: This experiment of just grad e: Well we had we had talked about doing maybe EDU as a good choice , though . phd b: Well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . phd b: But for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: Yeah , maybe it doesn't matter . phd b: I I don't think it matte postdoc a: I 'll I 'll I 'll , get make that available . grad e: OK , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: Oh , well , wait . grad e: Hand - checked ? Cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: Right , so we need to run Thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: That 's right . postdoc a: I think they 're coming phd b: And we probably don't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wanna send them a sample to try . What would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: I don't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: I don't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: Yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that didn't get at what you wanted for them It 's just dependent of how much grad e: Like I I guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , professor c: Yeah . phd b: I guess , the only thing I 'm not sure about is , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: phd b: and , is it pretty easy ? grad e: I think it 's gonna be one or two times real time at Wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? Cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: Can we pipeline it so that say there 's , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? , grad e: Well the other stuff is I B I 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . So the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: Right . professor c: OK , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , you would give IBM whatever was fixed . postdoc a: And have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: Right . professor c: Well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? So if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give IBM . The I guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to IBM , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? Let their professor c: Why wouldn't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why wouldn't we give them i are we trying to get something done by the time Brian comes ? phd b: Well I I , I don't know . professor c: So if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . grad e: Well , I don't think , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: I gue . grad e: I think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . I would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: If it 's got like for speakers then I guess if phd b: We 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: Or seven or eight . phd b: So it 's gonna be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , postdoc a: I guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: Well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it didn't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , the question is " should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? " And I th eh so far as I 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: That 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: What what aspect ? professor c: So you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: Yeah . professor c: So how do you grad e: So , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: Yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . grad e: Right , so so you 'll have to I phd d: It will miss them . It will it will miss grad e: - huh ! phd d: Yeah , you have to say " - huh " more slowly to to get c grad e: Sorry . phd d: So it will miss stuff like that which phd b: I grad e: Well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: Yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: That 's that 's what I 'm I 'm concerned about the part . phd b: Can't we couldn't we just have , I don't know , maybe this just doesn't fit with the software , but I guess if I didn't know anything about Transcriber and I was gonna make something to let them adjust boundaries , I would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: Oh they can grad e: Well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . grad e: Right ? Because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: And if phd b: But i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: - huh . postdoc a: w Well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: I just don't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . I 've I 've looked at the int , s I 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . grad e: Yeah , and I I think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: What you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? , I know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . Yeah , I found the same thing that when I was scanning through the wave form I could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . professor c: So I don't I 'm I 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: But professor c: So , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: Well , they have a choice . But I 've I 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it wasn't , grad e: Oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: But the procedure that you 're imagining , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: Yes . professor c: and they have multiple , well , let 's see , there isn't we don't have transcription yet . So but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: Yes . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: Oh , professor c: There 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: N the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with Thilo 's new procedure , then you don't have the correspondence of the times across the bins across the ribbons you could have professor c: And is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: Yes . professor c: OK , so The way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: Yeah . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . professor c: They they might look at it , right ? grad e: Well , the problem is that the the interface doesn't really allow you to switch visuals . grad e: The problem is that that the Tcl - TK interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . grad e: And so when I tried that that was the first thing I tried when I first started it , postdoc a: Oh , oh . You can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just can't get the visual display to show quickly . So you have to It takes , I don't know , three , four minutes to Well , it takes it takes long enough phd d: Yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: It takes long enough cuz it has to reload the I I don't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: That w grad e: Well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: But you can cancel that . grad g: Oh , really ? postdoc a: Now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: we we could do different interfaces , grad g: What if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? , so so we could use like X Waves instead of Transcriber , postdoc a: Yeah . grad g: What if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: Well that 's what I tried originally . grad g: like doesn't grad e: So I I actually before , Dave Gelbart did this , I did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . So you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go " kur - chunk ! " grad g: Oh , OK . postdoc a: You know , I am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a Transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . And it 's sort of a a hack but it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: I think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . professor c: So phd d: That 's actually what I thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: An But isn't grad g: . phd b: The problem is if if anything 's cut off , you can't expand it from the chopped up phd d: So . phd d: Right , but if you a at some point grad e: And wouldn't that be the same as the mixed signal ? phd d: No , the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . phd d: Cuz you don't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: Yeah . phd d: might be nice , cuz we save those out already , to be able to do that . But it won't work for IBM of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: Well , I I do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: Yeah . postdoc a: and , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there isn't something hidden from from audio view . Yeah , hopefully , The mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . The only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . phd d: I don't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: Right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . professor c: But right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? Is what she 's saying . professor c: So grad e: Right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did Dave Did Dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: Yes . postdoc a: I 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? Yeah , you can get that grad e: Yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , you can get it to switch audio ? , not last I tried , grad e: Yeah . grad e: We should get him to do that because , I think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . There 's a reason I disagree , and that is that , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . There 're times when I wanna hear the mixed signal , bu but I want to transcribe on the single channel . postdoc a: Maybe , I just don't I don't see that it 's a grad e: Just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: Well , that 's the i I I think that might be a personal style thing . grad e: Well it just seems to me that if you wanna quickly " well was that Jane , no , was that Chuck , no , was that Morgan " , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: Yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , th in the ideal world Yeah . grad e: What ? postdoc a: No I I agree that 'd be nice . professor c: So , Done with that ? Does any I forget , does anybody , working on any any Eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: I would like to try to do something on digits but I just don't know if we have time . Yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , what what what did it mean for , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: Right , and I haven't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: Oh , I haven't I haven't listened to them either , grad e: I was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , grad e: Well , Morgan and I were were having a debate about that . phd f: unless our grad e: Whereas I think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually Stephane 's results , I think confirm that . He s he did the Aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , fifteen to twenty percent average ? But then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? So that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . So I 'll I 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . phd b: Did you run the Andreas the r SRI recognizer on the digits ? grad e: Oh , I thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: Yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: No , I d I didn't . phd b: I it wasn't phd f: But , yeah , if you take grad e: It was bimodal . phd f: So if you Yeah , it 's actually , it it was trimodal , actually grad e: Oh , was it trimodal , OK . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: There 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: Yeah . phd b: This is error you 're talking about ? professor c: Oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: OK . And then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . phd f: I can't imagine that grad g: What is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: Just just something really wrong with grad g: I 'm sorry , I don't grad e: A bug is what , phd f: In the recording grad g: Oh . phd f: And there was this one meeting , I forget which one it was , where like , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad e: Which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: Right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: But grad e: or , I extracted it incorrectly , phd f: But grad e: it was labeled grad g: grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and I just haven't listened to it yet to find out what it was . phd f: So , if I excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: What we 're calling . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models weren't tuned for for it . phd b: And it didn't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: It was just a @ @ . I haven't split it up that way , phd d: But there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it shouldn't really matter . professor c: No , but there 's a little difference , phd f: So it should grad e: There 's a lot . professor c: And so , cuz because what he was what I was saying when I looked at those things is it it I was almost gonna call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . But if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: Yeah . phd f: And then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: I see . postdoc a: You did you have , something in the report about , about , for f , forced alignment ? professor c: Yeah . postdoc a: Have you have you started on that ? phd f: Oh , well , yeah , so I 've been struggling with the forced alignments . So the scheme that I drew on the board last time where we tried to , allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , most of the time it doesn't work very well . So , and the I haven't done , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into X Waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: . phd f: And it looks And so I looked at all of the utterances from you , Chuck , in that one conversation , I don't know which You probably know which one , it 's where you were on the lapel and Morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything Morgan says . phd f: But and and some of what you , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . So , I actually went through all of those , there were I think fifty - five segments , in in X Waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . So there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , you know , Chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , word of what he says , often " I " but it 's very reduced " I , " that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , in that segment , which is cross - talk . So , I 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we can't get clean alignments out of this out of those , channels , so . phd d: Right , but that 's , that was our plan , phd f: Yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from Dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . phd d: So so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , writing up the HLT paper and we wanted to use that , kind of analysis , professor c: Yeah . phd d: but the HLT paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . It 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . phd d: And , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because Dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . If it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , phd b: I didn't think that his message said it wasn't straight - forward . grad e: Well if we 'd just professor c: Well phd b: I thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , in the recordings professor c: Yeah . phd d: and phd b: So you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you can't you can't just look grad e: Well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software doesn't do time - synchronous ? Is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: That seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: I don't thi I d I don't think that was the issue . phd f: The issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: And it 's dynamic , so I guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and I don't know too much about this area where if people aren't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . phd d: but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it wasn't I guess it just wasn't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . So , so I don't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a Eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: Well , Andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: Yeah . phd f: we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends of contiguous speech . , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: Because really the the at least in terms of how we were gonna use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . phd b: We don't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: No , that 's how I 've been looking at it . phd f: I don't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: Yeah . phd f: but you don't wanna , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who didn't . So that 's why I was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: maybe if it doesn't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: Yeah . phd b: and phd f: I haven't I ha just haven't had the time to , do the same procedure on one of the so I would need a k I would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . grad e: ! phd f: So , I grad e: So a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then I would be willing to phd b: We c you know what ? Maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: Cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . And so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to Adam at one of the meetings phd d: Actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: From the insertions , maybe ? phd d: yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: It might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: Right . phd d: and , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . So so I guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . Another one was to try to get somehow align Thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . But then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . phd b: What what is why do you need the , the forced alignment for the HLT for the Eurospeech paper ? phd d: Well , I guess I I wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . Like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . But without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: So it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: To to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: Ah , OK . phd d: and I guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . So , if we d it might be possible to take Thilo 's output and like if you have , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: Ugh ! I forgot the digital camera again . phd d: grad e: Every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if Thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: phd d: Yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it doesn't really help you , so , phd b: Thilo 's won't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: Well it w it would , but , we don't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: Thilo 's will . phd d: and we don't really know , postdoc a: Well it 's a merging problem . If you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: I 've thought about this , and I 've discussed I 've discussed it with Thilo , phd d: if you have any ideas . I would postdoc a: the , I I in principle I could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: Well maybe Maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . grad e: You know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: Well they they can be stretched . postdoc a: I wouldn't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , " And then I " and there 's a long pause phd d: Yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the it 's it 's not a simple problem . But it 's really And then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that Thilo 's isn't perfect either . , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , not grad e: Right . ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . postdoc a: And so i and may you know , it 's I think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . I 've I 've discussed it with Thilo and in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: I guess in the future it won't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: Well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , interface , one month too late , phd d: So I 'm no I don't know if this grad e: Oh . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: Oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . grad e: I was just thinking about the fact that if Thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: But he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: Yeah . phd d: but that might be OK , an grad e: It might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . And you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: What do you think , Jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: If you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: Yeah . Cuz then then you just delete it , and you don't have to pick a time . phd d: I think it 's postdoc a: Well the problem is I you know I I it 's a it 's a really good question , and I really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . But , you know , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: Yeah , I guess the semantics aren't clear when you delete a segment , right ? Because you would say You would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: You could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: If it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put " X , " you know , like " not speech " or something , postdoc a: I think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get Yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: But I think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something So let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . Well , is that part of the speech ? Is it part of the nonspeech ? , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: There 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that Thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . Because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: Oh , I see . So then they could just like put Oh that 's what you meant by just put an " X " there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: So so all they So that all they would have to do is put like an " X " there . phd d: Yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: So blank for blank for silence , " S " " S " for speech , " X " " X " for something else . That 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: Well , like , I think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . phd d: Anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr , it 's grad e: Well , I think we 'll have to , eventually . grad e: But if we can't phd d: And maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: But if we can't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we can't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: Well , I 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . grad e: cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: Actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: We wouldn't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: Well , and also , I still haven't I still haven't given up on forced alignment . phd d: No , you 're right , actually postdoc a: I think that when Brian comes , this 'll be an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: When postdoc a: when Brian Kingsbury comes . And it 's like , " Who 's Ryan ? " postdoc a: Yeah , good question . phd d: no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: Yep . postdoc a: That 's what my hope has been , phd d: So we should at least try it even if we can't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the February meeting that I transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: On the table , right ? postdoc a: And and so I 'm hopeful that that 's possible . I know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: There 's postdoc a: but phd f: Yeah . phd d: we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . Right ? phd b: Yeah , we were never just gonna go with these as the final alignments . phd d: So we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: I 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , by using , acoustic adaptation . , the Right now I 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , manage to adapt the , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . , so phd b: Could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: That 's what he just said . phd b: Oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: Right . I don't think that would work , phd f: No , it grad e: right ? Because you 'd A lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd d: But what you do wanna do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the HLT paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: So you want to u phd d: Use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . I thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: It really it depends a lot . professor c: Well I know what we 're not turning in to Eurospeech , a redo of the HLT paper . professor c: That I don't wanna do that , grad e: Yeah , I 'm doing that for AVIOS . phd d: I think Morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: Excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: Yeah . phd f: Some good jokes in it ? grad e: Especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: Yeah . professor c: You know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: It 's full . grad e: He he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: Po - low power grad e: and Microsoft pops up a little window saying " Your batteries are now fully charged . grad e: I 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say " Your batteries are low " right when I 'm saying that . No , i in in your case , you were joking about it , but , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . Whereas HLT and and Eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so I I I can't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: Are too close , yeah . phd d: No , I d I don't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the HLT paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , professor c: Yeah . phd d: Well , yeah , it it 's probably wouldn't make sense , professor c: Or some or some , I would see Eurospeech if we have some Eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p , submissions . phd d: but professor c: These will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . I had , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , NSA meetings , and then I went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . I sent You know that one ? phd d: Oh , so grad g: The which one ? I 'm sorry . postdoc a: I 'm trying to remember I don't remember the number off hand . grad e: Those are all postdoc a: It 's one of the NSA 's . postdoc a: I 'm sure that that one 's accurate , I 've been through it myself . phd f: oh , Darn ! grad g: Yeah , that 's the problem with the NSA speakers . phd d: And e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: So . phd d: I bet the transcri , I have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: Yeah . phd d: so , postdoc a: I 'm sure that , they 're they 're accurate now . grad e: oh , before you l go I guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike I noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? Oh . postdoc a: Well I won I noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: Maybe it wasn't just tightened enough , or phd d: Maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: Actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's gotta go farther away which means the the balance is gonna make it wanna tip down . grad e: Cuz , I 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: Yeah . grad e: and if these aren't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: I think it 's com This is the first time I 've worn this , I find it very comfortable . grad e: I find it very comfortable too , but , it looked like Andreas was having problems , and I think Morgan was saying it professor c: Well , but I had it on I had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: Can I see that ? grad e: Oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: Yeah . phd b: I yeah , I don't want it on , I just I just want to , say what I think is a problem with this . If you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gonna want to pull it this way . phd b: Where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: It 's more balanced . postdoc a: Oh ! phd b: Then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: So we have to grad e: Well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: Ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it doesn't slide up . grad e: Yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: Yeah . phd d: So I 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: About heads ? phd d: but does seem , phd b: It would be an advantage . postdoc a: Well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: Well , we should We shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: I think probably it was Yeah . , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: The other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: What did you say ? phd d: A little , grad e: wh professor c: Hang a five pound weight off the off the back . grad e: We at Boeing I used I was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: Counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . If people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: Yeah ! professor c: and , grad e: Anyway . professor c: so , what was I gonna say ? Oh , yeah , I was gonna say , I had these , conversations with NIST folks also while I was there and and , so they they have their their plan for a room , with , mikes in the middle of the table , and , close - mounted mikes , grad e: Yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: And arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: And arrays , professor c: Yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . professor c: And yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: Fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven Because , there is , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a KEMAR head . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: Oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . professor c: So they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , I think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . And the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the KEMAR head if they go go with that . grad e: Yeah , h , J Jonathan Fiscus did say that , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: - grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . I was thinking phd d: But they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: Scenario - based . grad e: But it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: Yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gonna be real meetings , postdoc a: grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: Did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: phd b: What was the , the paper by , Lori Lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , I mea ba i i , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: Mmm , yeah . professor c: but , basically , it was about , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . , so in in fact it was pretty related to what Liz and Andreas did , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: Right . professor c: like I think they s didn't they start off with Broadcast News system ? And then they went to grad e: The - their Broadcast News was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . phd b: What was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: Yeah , read Wall Street Journal . phd d: Well , it 's it 's a good paper , professor c: Yeah , yeah . phd d: Bring the grad e: That It not only works , in some cases it was better , which I thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they didn't control for parameters . phd b: Did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models were a lot more complex . grad e: Yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task isn't fully doesn't have all the phones in it , professor c: Yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that I did ? That 's what I did . Yeah , and they have they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: Yep . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , I haven't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the Tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: Present . phd d: Well , the summarization stuff was interesting , I don't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , it 's sort of a far cry because they weren't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: Right . phd b: Do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . phd d: but , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , I I don't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: Was were there folks from BBN presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , Mitre , BBN , and , Prager grad e: Mitre , BBN , IBM . phd d: no it was grad e: Wasn't Who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was Wednesday morning . The sentence ordering one , was that Barselou , and these guys ? grad e: Ugh ! I 'm just so bad at that . phd d: Anyway , I I it 's in the program , I should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and I think like when Mari and Katrin and Jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: postdoc a: Well , I like the idea that Adam had of of , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: Right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: Someone who actually does take notes , I 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: But I think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: I always write down the wrong things . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: A judge . phd d: and phd b: Was SRA one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: Yep . One of those w grad e: And as I said , I like the Microsoft talk on scaling issues in , word sense disambiguation , phd d: Yeah . professor c: Yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: The professor c: I grad e: It it it was the only one It was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: The data issue comes up all the ti professor c: Well , I didn't have as much disagreement as I would have liked , grad e: So . professor c: but I didn't wanna I wouldn I didn't wanna get into it because , you know , it was the application was one I didn't know anything about , grad e: Yep . professor c: it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of But I mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , improperly , it was a nice study . , they were doing this it wasn't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: Yeah yeah yeah grad e: Well , it sort of was . grad e: But it was it was a very simple case of " to " versus " too " versus " two " and " there " , " their " , " they 're " phd d: And there and their and professor c: Yeah , yeah . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , that 's clearly statistically professor c: Right . professor c: And so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , argues about about , " Oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . " And , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . And then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: Them being beep , they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , I didn't I didn't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: Yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: You mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: Well , I think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from Wall Street Journal , is correct , and edit it . Of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that that you got better and better performance with more and more data . , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: This was my concern about the recognizer in Aurora . professor c: That phd b: That the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: Yeah . phd d: If you add more data ? Or phd b: You know ? professor c: Yeah . So so , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem I had with it was that the implications out of this was that , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as I know in in tasks I 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . What i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wanna know what those properties are . And someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still don't know what those properties are . We don't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: But doesn't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? Because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: You would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you can't get any better , right ? You get everything right . phd d: It 's just no grad e: But phd b: So they 're all approaching . phd b: But what I 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . phd b: But they 're all going the same way , right ? So you have to get closer . phd b: Oh they didn't ? professor c: Well grad e: They just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: Yep . professor c: but but , I think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , I think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in Switchboard than it is in in Broadcast News , phd d: Well it 's different for different tasks . phd d: So it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? You 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: Yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , test data then your training data , then that extra data wouldn't generalize , grad e: Right . w , I think one of them was that " Well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better " . Right ? Because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: Why are you sticking with a million words ? " , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . But anyway , I I I think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: But we could talk about this stuff , I think this would be fun to do . professor c: that , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that I thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: Machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or didn't realize data was important , but in fact th they didn't have it available . , but the other point to make a again is that , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: Right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: Or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: Yeah , or or , phd d: Or done another language , or , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: Yep . " professor c: And there 's cost ! phd d: So , these are like two different religions , basically . professor c: you know , so so these , th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gonna be better . because people , there isn't gonna be just one system that people train on grad e: Yep . She put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , " Can I see that slide again ? " professor c: Yeah . phd d: Yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , you know , " Before you dismiss forty - five years including my work " phd d: yeah . phd d: But th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? You look at the ACL papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , OK we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: Yep . grad e: Is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? Just , you you can't say phd b: Maybe they should have said " focus " or something . And I 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? For a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . And now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: And and then you hit this grad e: Except when they have a Eurospeech paper . grad e: Shall we read some digits ? Are we gonna do one at a time ? Or should we read them all agai at once again

Deleting segments of the recordings is expected to be time-consuming for transcribers, and more results are needed for Eurospeech'01 submissions. Speaker mn005 is currently working on detecting overlapping speech, reporting approximately 300 cases of overlap in a single transcribed meeting. Future work will involve manually deriving time marks from sections of overlapping speech and experimenting with different measures to identify speaker overlap. The team was using LPC to filter out white noise from the digit task, but there were concerns about LPC's representation of speech and its degradation. The addition of the neural net doubled the number of deletions, but the model did not significantly improve, leading to the decision for further experimentation. PhD G explained the data's representation of overlaps and proposed analyzing the distribution and average length of overlaps, as well as anonymizing and classifying overlaps by type. Postdoc F suggested conducting control experiments with smaller groups of people to gather useful data.

Summarize the challenges, speech overlap, LPC, deletions, improving the net, overlaps, control, and further modifications discussed before submission for Eurospeech'19.

user interface: Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ? marketing: The power light doesn't work . Okay , so I just show you the m the no the the the the the the minutes , minute . project manager: Okay , so we just talked about Oh you want me to show that there or user interface: No , industrial designer: no . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute button , and a text T_V_ button . project manager: So I just want to give you Mike again , the first presentation of your marketing: Shall I start ? project manager: Yeah . I searched the web , and I searched on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . but they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . And then that This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of L_C_D_ or speech recognition . marketing: But this is the second important aspect , and I think we must use some of the new technology , to be innovative . And it says fashion-watchers of Pari France and Italy , yeah , have detected the following trends . marketing: But the the next aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe is expected to be spongy . marketing: But spongy , what what does spongy says ? industrial designer: Spongy . project manager: because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . project manager: Is it a bit like like the the the the remote control ? user interface: How are you gonna make it ? project manager: R_ soft . industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: industrial designer: I've some material information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation . marketing: Okay ? project manager: marketing: What do I think ? because a fancy look is the most important thing for remote control control , I think about changeable fronts . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget . marketing: Intro project manager: Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control . user interface: So industrial designer: Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: and it's easy to implement . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so but marketing: user interface: if we implement speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well . So you can say , you can user interface: Since you have to configure speech thing . project manager: But that's definitely more expensive than user interface: Yeah , that's that's something I dunno . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros . user interface: Yeah , so we gotta de project manager: So user interface: We have to decide on that . That was this ? user interface: industrial designer: Oh I got an email And it says the chip can be simple , regular or advanced . So user interface: L_D_C_ doesn't require industrial designer: it's m the most expensive . industrial designer: I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but user interface: I'll I'll give you my design . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out both sides . project manager: Yeah , maybe the teletext tel user interface: Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . user interface: but it's marketing: No , I don't I don't like it . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control . industrial designer: Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom . user interface: They're on top ? project manager: Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . industrial designer: But I I think w you'll use the switch channels buttons more often than the normal channel buttons , like one two three . I dunno , but yeah we'll industrial designer: Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time . user interface: And if you don't light 'em up , they don't you don't see 'em very good . industrial designer: That's that's good , but user interface: I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . It's s We have to look what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use . user interface: I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half . Yeah , maybe industrial designer: But we we can switch those two , user interface: Those two , yeah . user interface: And , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . And well if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to switch it open . project manager: We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of project manager: Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the remote control . user interface: Yeah , it's project manager: So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow . industrial designer: Yeah , n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public . user interface: Yeah , but I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But project manager: We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but user interface: Yeah , okay . user interface: can't we use different fron fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So project manager: Yeah , it's cool . industrial designer: S user interface: You can Just like a mobile phone , you can make different fronts on it . user interface: A more Yeah , just marketing: project manager: That's better prob industrial designer: With the hard hard buttons . The the the new new modern remote controls , the buttons are part of the the style , I think is part of the remote control itself . it's n doesn't Is a button How do you say it ? industrial designer: Yeah , it's it's all on one level . marketing: It it didn't it i it don't come out of the on the background . project manager: basic remote control from normal plastic , marketing: project manager: and industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work . industrial designer: So if you put project manager: Y i if you The numbers could be can be user interface: you can just make them around the buttons project manager: Yeah , that's right . user interface: Or it runs the whole industrial designer: Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . user interface: Yeah , you can halfs transparent , industrial designer: Or no user interface: or just that it's comes out a bit . user interface: depends on the colour of the project manager: Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it . Is marketing: but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ? user interface: Yeah , it can . project manager: industrial designer: I don't know what it is , but it should be there I think . marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of things . project manager: Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so industrial designer: W So we d we just need this and this transistors and resonators . user interface: industrial designer: they they basically said that that's almost the same on any remote controls . project manager: We still want to have a recharger , don't we ? industrial designer: Yeah but project manager: Is that still the user interface: Yes . industrial designer: Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an How do you call it ? Accu . user interface: project manager: It's just batteries , industrial designer: so marketing: project manager: that's cheaper . So we need the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ . industrial designer: are are we using a a rubber case , or project manager: Oh just sk industrial designer: We haven't decided yet . It's user interface: I don't think a rubber case looks industrial designer: L marketing: but we have to do something about the trend . Or should we do it in the next meeting ? user interface: I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board . industrial designer: So we should did it here ? project manager: That's for th user interface: So we're staying here ? project manager: that I think that's the next next meeting . user interface: Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those . You see what ? industrial designer: What ? project manager: If I draw here It draws about four centimetres lower than industrial designer: Oh . industrial designer: I think you'll get a a lot of volume changing when it's not wanted . project manager: And industrial designer: Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . user interface: Yeah , maybe you just have to make it That's not scrollable too easy . And what's the channel choose ? Where do we put that ? Still on the bottom industrial designer: I think in middle . project manager: or user interface: wh what is the middle part ? project manager: That's the numbers . industrial designer: I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle . project manager: It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other . user interface: Use the dz project manager: Because you already have the volume here , so You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . project manager: So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . industrial designer: Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below . project manager: But that's not want to zap very quick , so user interface: Yeah , I think zapping is the highest priority . project manager: Yeah ? Is this a opportunity , user interface: And then you use those project manager: or you don't want a different user interface: Yeah , of course . industrial designer: but I think we we should bu put 'em on top of each other , so project manager: Why ? industrial designer: Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up project manager: But still the next It's still the next one . Doesn't make industrial designer: Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is If you put them project manager: Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . industrial designer: But but I I think left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with channel changing . user interface: Yeah , I think industrial designer: So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning time . I You already have the volume on the side , user interface: No , I think project manager: so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake . project manager: So it's user interface: I think it's s so simple industrial designer: I dunno . user interface: you just project manager: So but that's for that's for you , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: 'cause it's user interface: Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it . user interface: Think we need to work thirty minutes again ? marketing: Yeah , we have to care that it r looks really new . marketing: 'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside . user interface: No , you have It is industrial designer: Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape . marketing: Some some kind of bling bling can we have industrial designer: user interface: Where you can put a ve we have If we do it like that we have below have we a lot of room to put a nice logo . marketing: and how many fronts fronts do we put on the market then ? five or something ? project manager: Yeah , five . user interface: marketing: Or more or user interface: Maybe you can buy separate ones and marketing: And buy the product . industrial designer: No , tha that will be project manager: So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ? user interface: Yes . marketing: Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet . industrial designer: But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well . user interface: I think i marketing: user interface: Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . industrial designer: Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: It's a bit annoying , isn't it ? marketing: Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but marketing: Yeah , it project manager: industrial designer: Like in this kind of shape or marketing: it's very annoying . project manager: So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have . project manager: But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of Skip that one as well . user interface: and marketing: It's not not a lot of trends I I found project manager: Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just marketing: project manager: I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square . Yeah , marketing: It The th th industrial designer: I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand stuff . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal industrial designer: Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public . marketing: There is one There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can make it look not like the iPod itself . But you're If you look at the way remote controls are now project manager: But i it is it is it is already fancy . user interface: And if you make it look like the iPod marketing: Yeah , they're all the same . So that's already a very big change project manager: maybe maybe make the the the wha what's it called scroll wheel . Maybe we have to ask to the the to her if it has if it can work better than this . project manager: We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think project manager: Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a industrial designer: S user interface: Well project manager: advanced chip . marketing: industrial designer: And we we have to build in a microphone and user interface: Well that's very easy . We already have the beeping of the home station , industrial designer: Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that . user interface: so industrial designer: I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition , marketing: No . Becau project manager: Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well , marketing: Yeah . But project manager: okay ? user interface: So marketing: Ma user interface: shall we it open then ? project manager: Yeah . user interface: Oh yeah , I marketing: But we don't have any f information about the cost . marketing: We started with information about the cost was now th user interface: I just I just received the industrial designer: Yeah , I have I have some some information about the cost . marketing: And how much is the chip ? The the the industrial designer: I don't know how much , but user interface: Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit . industrial designer: Just in inexpensive or user interface: This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question . user interface: Yeah th that's just It's a marketing: Does it say does it say something back ? project manager: Okay , we have to stop it now . Yeah , it Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it . project manager: Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced industrial designer: But i it's a separate chip . user interface: I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well . industrial designer: Yeah , I don't know anything about this , marketing: project manager: Yeah , we just decide not to put it in , industrial designer: but Nah . project manager: Okay , just user interface: And there's a chip in it that will project manager: We have to stop it now <doc-sep>industrial designer: project manager: so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . industrial designer: Okay so I think I will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please open I'm participant two . project manager: industrial designer: Okay so the first thing I have done is to to made a review together with the manufactural department and have which components was available to build a remote control . So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and kinetic well kinetic technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: We also we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . But if we use battery industrial designer: Yeah b f well I meant by by battery I meant I will not have a a wire between the remote control and the energy source but I didn't fou we didn't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . But well it's not a a re well a real issue for the from the technical point of view . Concerning the interface we can we can put just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic energy collection is the is the better way to provide energy because I think solar energy wi won't work in a cluttered environment . For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it's trendy and it's it's well it's modern and user are are are will be very happy to have a a a nice remote . For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper . user interface: What is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: Well i i it's it's the the shape of the of the remote . user interface: So it's it's not industrial designer: You you will have the well the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: Yo l yeah . And the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it doesn't matter ? industrial designer: Yeah the that's the point . The kinetic one is y you can recharge by the user interface: That that's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: Yeah and by well by just by moving the ar your arm the well the remote will accumulate energy . industrial designer: But I d I don't know it's if it is feasible because I don't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote all the necessary energy . We we might check with our R_ and D_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . Wha industrial designer: So you're right we can see in our R_ and D_ if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . industrial designer: Oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: I take care , it's all right . user interface: So the titanium case is the normal case that I'll show you some pictures that I have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . There's another point I want to make , is that the well you've seen them I le na my presentation that I point out some why buttons are not the not the only ways you can use Yeah . So the user interface is i it uses the aspect of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . So you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . The idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . user interface: So some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way I receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . user interface: And it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . so somebody some people use some people use a spinning wheel th with the L_C_ display so instead of using the buttons you have a L_C_D_ screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . So s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . And then they also secure covers , to protect secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . I'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . So the adults might wanna have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . But for our product we don't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: user interface: T_V_ remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: And then , he will beeps and to say that I am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: We should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: Is it possible ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: ? industrial designer: Yeah but as Norman say if there is already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check to integrate it i into our new remote control . And , this is another one where you can the the the part that's a V_ standing for the volume . But you the see that in the V_ , the V_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: user interface: up arrow there's a V_ like as as if it's turning down so it's confusing interface , so I wanna avoid this kind of thing in the design . user interface: And here are is here is a s short summary that I summary that I compiled after the findings I found . Big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . user interface: And basically industrial designer: Well I I think you it's it's it's fine you have reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but well i if we consider that the user interface is displayed on the T_V_ screen I don't think we nee we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the T_V_ . So wi marketing: But people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: If the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . industrial designer: But wel well I think project manager: It's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . project manager: So marketing: it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: So it's the same marketing: Same remote with some project manager: Can be used by both kids and old people . Well what I s propose is that you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is a small device that looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: Maybe for kids , kids they like t no l they like to user interface: Small industrial designer: well . project manager: marketing: So we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . So seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they don't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . And eighty percent of the people they are always l they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they're not used most of the times . Most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the T_V_ . marketing: So they're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: And if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . marketing: So you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it's quite difficult to learn if it's too complex . marketing: So keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations I think this should be the solution for them . industrial designer: Well w well I I I don't really see the advantage of having L_C_D_ on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and display on the screen . industrial designer: It's marketing: - ? industrial designer: yeah of course it's fancy trendy and so on but it's it's expensive to produce and it's not really marketing: as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . marketing: So if we have a L_C_D_ on the remote , rather than looking onto the T_V_ you just look into a remote and navigate it . The thing marketing: We just play around industrial designer: Yeah but when you play with the iPod you don't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: You can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: Yeah . user interface: If you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the L_C_D_ , after all the L_C_D_ just to display project manager: . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the L_C_D_ , marketing: Yeah . marketing: So industrial designer: So I th I I well I think we we can focus on the on the fancy look on the user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but well I think L_C_D_ will will make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . So i is marketing: yeah we have project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an L_C_D_ will cost and then we'll decide again . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . industrial designer: And marketing: And it's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . marketing: the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . Yeah I think that marketing: Because they they just they're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . industrial designer: Yeah I I I think that well as we have seen in the in the presentation well about fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: Don't use the buttons . But project manager: But they are just less used compar marketing: They're not used much . industrial designer: But the the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the T_V_ screen user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: and you project manager: Or maybe we can u or maybe we can make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . marketing: industrial designer: But if i i if we if we could have a a a display g a user interface that is very complete on the T_V_ screen I think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: Yep . marketing: Or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a L_C_D_ on the remote not on the television . Because when you have the L_C_D_ onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: Yeah but marketing: So if you have then L_C_D_ in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the L_C_D_ displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . industrial designer: Yeah but if you look at the L_C_D_ you you don't look at the T_V_ screen marketing: And accordingly you can just increase or decrease . industrial designer: so i i it's not really worth to get to have the image if you don't look at , so . project manager: And I think it's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use L_C_D_ . user interface: I think that there's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you don't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wanna control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: Yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you don't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for L_C_D_ , marketing: Okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: better if we could just check all the cost with L_C_D_ user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like find user interface: . industrial designer: and when the remote control hears fine well yeah just to make him beep or t project manager: You will listen to a peep , special peep . marketing: it's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we don't use the remote control we put it in the charger . marketing: And when we're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the remote control beeps , wherever it is . marketing: it doe it also doesn't require a voice command , project manager: But you don't you don't have to move the the charger . user interface: That we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off T_V_ button , the off button , the remote there be s instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . user interface: because every time you're off the computer the T_V_ you are asked the the command the T_V_ com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . user interface: So it's it's it's all about strategy , y marketing: And of course the final point is a fancy look . marketing: As we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by Norman they weren't fancy , user interface: . marketing: I think we should have something it industrial designer: Well the last one with the yeah with the two parts was original , so user interface: With two two two parts controller . marketing: you see if it's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you can't avoid him . marketing: So just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he can't use even user interface: . industrial designer: Well we can think about having on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the T_V_ you can well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , things like that . project manager: Or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push kids button so it's automatically user interface: . marketing: I think these other four points they're the market demands and so it's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: So for project manager: Yeah . So for my part I will check the prices the the prices difference of what to use , where to use , and s and so on . marketing: Yeah I think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th these could be included . I think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: because if you want say we can sort by channels or sort by T_V_ programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: Well I think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like sports and then on the T_V_ you have a list with with well with sports program playing now user interface: . You see if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you've just say twenty five project manager: Yeah it's yeah . marketing: So I think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: Well but well e every possible word has a probability to come about of the T_V_ so . marketing: the the you just check all the probability that saying T_V_ twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . marketing: Ordinary twenty five you almost there's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: . marketing: and T_V_ twenty five I dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: But I I I think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . user interface: You say numbe channel number five of the T_V_ correspond to something else in the channel . user interface: ? project manager: Because you have to s t a ch user interface: Well , it's convenient for the user . marketing: Then project manager: Or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: The . user interface: I I think that I have I think there's another way you can do is that you can if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the T_V_ screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let's say it's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: Yeah , the . Just you have in the beginning you have t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . industrial designer: Well I I also project manager: By associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: I I also think about another problem , if if there is more than one person who is watching T_V_ project manager: And for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . industrial designer: Because I remember when I was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: . project manager: Or you have to s user interface: Yeah , I wanna watch this , I wanna watch that . industrial designer: so it's a pr it could be a problem if if well if someone passes by when you are watching T_V_ and say oh T_V_ thirty and just run , s user interface: . If we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad reputation for our company . marketing: So I think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: Yeah that's well I think that's a good a good option because it's simple and simple to implement also , so . industrial designer: marketing: Oh it came there on three minutes back so we are I think we can just press the okay <doc-sep>industrial designer: 'S to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is , marketing: Yeah . project manager: Okay , well marketing: It kinda does make sense , doesn't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we're kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background . project manager: Well how on the in this meeting then if we I'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . project manager: and we decided that it was gonna be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we're gonna group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , . And I told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the T_V_ , and trying to incorporate the the corporate colour and slogan . so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you're gonna want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we'll have all the discussion at the end . project manager: And so if we start off with Andrew and then Craig and then David , marketing: Okay . what did how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? We did we say we were gonna try maybe incorporate it but we hadn't made a definite decision on that ? industrial designer: Oh I should also point out that the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product . basically what I wanna do here , before we get into it too far , is I want to show you all the background information I have that I think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful . marketing: And and then sorta g go through some of the way that I've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . so I've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our p project plan that we have so far , and then initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other other elements of the of the project . marketing: I thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that's why I suggested we get in this . marketing: Okay so out of different figures and ratings ob of people in general , consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , b f f fancy . marketing: however , this is where we kinda have to be very , I think , creative about it . Okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary sort of functional bits to it . and third priority for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , quite user friendly while still having technology . So it I'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that I think what we should think about is how the about how the innovation contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it . marketing: For example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what , like , or it's got something else to it that just seems innovative project manager: -huh . So how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? Well that's I guess where we're gonna go with this . marketing: Okay then there's the other aspect of the back the the market research I have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we've agreed is a priority . top European fashion trend that I read about says there's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay , industrial designer: project manager: marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . And when I first saw that I thought , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it , project manager: Okay okay . marketing: do you know what ? So my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . 'cause I think what we're in what we're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , so I think we might wanna be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something , project manager: marketing: I think that would be pushing it . industrial designer: marketing: And then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . So probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , I think that'll be in our favour . innovative design technology's also a must in that it's seen it'd be seen to be cutting edge , but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . And then at the end there are vibrant natural colours that's the way I interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so I've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , Mac iPods , project manager: marketing: something which is , I'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there's like no buttons . marketing: You know what a Mac iPod is ? I'm thinking however Mac iPod is sort of last year's because it's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so I'm thinking if we imagine that we're taking some of the features of a Mac iPod and we're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . and then so this is w with all that information what I'm what I'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . Sort of like a I dunno like we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , sorta like a marketing identity . So so like I threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , I dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it's just an idea , 'cause I'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that . marketing: Like the ones the ones which I'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . Like I see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and project manager: Okay . marketing: I'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like like something to do with like lighting within it . Like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it lights up , q usually the buttons light up . marketing: How can we build on that ? Maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so . marketing: but hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into project manager: -huh . there's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , so I've taken the suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this So then this we're looking for suggestions on size th size of control and the buttons , the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control . user interface: what I found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . they're not very attractive to look at , and they're not very comfortable to hold , they're I just hold 'em like big bricks , and they're very easily lost . they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you can't really see them . I'm not sure if there's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . there's a problem that I've I've got couple of preferences for the the end control I get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that The buttons should be large . one of the examples given on the homepage was there's an up and down volume button but both of them have a V_ on them , project manager: user interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that's kinda confusing . if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere . user interface: obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea . Okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ? project manager: I think it's yellow marketing: I didn't know . project manager: because like the website is yellow and there's a band at the bottom is yellow , marketing: Okay . user interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they shouldn't be on the shouldn't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort . user interface: if we did decide to go for voice activation there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section making that something is wrong with it or with somebody's voice , maybe they got a cold or we should definitely avoid the big square block look . user interface: And we got an email from I think it's the the research department , and they've said th the voice control can now talk back if you ask it a question . user interface: So it sh it could be good to have them confirm any action you take project manager: Aye that's a good idea , yeah . you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they don't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or marketing: . marketing: It's a shame the cable wasn't just in the middle of the table , project manager: I know it'd be handy , wouldn't it . project manager: Do y do you wanna sit in the the line of sight of this industrial designer: Yeah okay . project manager: marketing: It takes a second , doesn't it ? industrial designer: 'Kay , that should be it . marketing: industrial designer: So just so you guys have some idea of what's involved in my process , and then you can just work through it marketing: industrial designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch depending on what your needs are . industrial designer: I think , like what you guys said , the most input that's needed is basically in the user interface . like you said time to market was a problem , and how many components are physically in there in cost . and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , they affect you in terms of the size of your device , and that would have some inte impact on how y I think more how you hold rather than the actual use using the the remote control because like we've said we've defined , like we only want the basic things that to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . these are the options that are available to you , I'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause I got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are . industrial designer: it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . industrial designer: well I could see the other email that they sent you , 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements , or different offerings of what components availa Okay so your basic components are buttons , user interface: Right . industrial designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel , project manager: . industrial designer: okay there's an L_C_D_ display , marketing: industrial designer: I think these are quite standard things . marketing: They're standard , aren't they ? industrial designer: No they're well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . It can actually be flat or it can be curved , and then the different types of materials that you can use , I don't think you can use them in a combination , but project manager: industrial designer: I could check back for you , but I don't think you can actually use them in a combination . project manager: We you couldn't have like plastic and rubber ? industrial designer: I think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , I wasn't I'm not very sure about the titanium . industrial designer: the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use , project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: so I think that there is some restriction on I think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium , project manager: industrial designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one . industrial designer: and the other components are logic chips , again I'll I'll go back to the component chips . The com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit and that impacts cost . I don't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size . Okay the second one I think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it's a wind-up you know , a crank . industrial designer: Yeah but that that might be something I think that's more of a look and feel decision because I don't think you can have one power source if you're using the alternative power sources . I think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause I don't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing . industrial designer: which may not be a great idea in Europe or any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you'd be dead . user interface: industrial designer: So like what I said , you probably need like a battery and something else . industrial designer: and the kinetic one I guess for me is the most interesting one project manager: industrial designer: because it's movement and people like to fiddle with their and it's a nice sales gimmick I think . industrial designer: From a marketing gimmick it it's a technology thing , marketing: industrial designer: it's a shake it it doesn't work , shake it , knock it or something . industrial designer: you have you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes , project manager: yeah yeah , I see . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber . industrial designer: You know just to if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: my from my role , I don't think that personal preferences but role preferences , I think something comfortable to hold , small and slim marketing: industrial designer: I guess that's more in the sense of small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you can't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone . industrial designer: and the other thing is from a production point of view the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . industrial designer: The user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the L_C_D_ panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . industrial designer: Okay with the titanium case , let me just check that , marketing: industrial designer: titanium case can't be curved , it has to be square . industrial designer: Okay there's no restriction on the plastic , and marketing: It can't be curved . industrial designer: So that's again , I don't think you can use them in a combination , especially the titanium project manager: Okay . Right can I marketing: question on can I ask a question ? project manager: Yeah well yeah it's just I'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we've left so but yeah you c ask away . Can we power a light in this ? Can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ? industrial designer: I think we could because the L_C_D_ panel requires power , and the L_C_D_ is a form of a light project manager: . industrial designer: so that marketing: So maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery . project manager: Why what kind of light do you want are you thinking of ? marketing: Well I'm thinking it might be That for this to be a high-tech thing it's gonna have to have something high-tech about it project manager: -huh . marketing: and that's gonna take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal I think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ? industrial designer: Are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know Frankenstein , it's alive . Well m I'm thinking along the lines of you're you're in the dark watching a D_V_D_ and you you find the thing in the dark and you go like this , industrial designer: Okay . marketing: and y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something . marketing: We're gonna need to put in a really good battery so people don't have to charge their r remote control every few days . industrial designer: that's why I think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch project manager: . marketing: But are people gonna wanna shake their movie controller ? industrial designer: it's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it . industrial designer: like I said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light project manager: Okay . industrial designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the marketing: Right . project manager: let's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . So yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product . project manager: So back to your idea about incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that . project manager: Does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? that's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ? user interface: I think we could go for like maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . project manager: So maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you'd hold onto comfortably or user interface: probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand . Colour-wise you made a re was it you or I can't remember who made the point about how if you've a nice bright colour you'll not lose it , was that industrial designer: I think he made that . project manager: Whose user interface: marketing: What's that ? project manager: about how if you have a bright colour you'll not lose it so much . project manager: and when the corporate colour is yellow , maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow I don't know . project manager: And then obviously the the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? That's all . marketing: Well I'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts , project manager: marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is the look and feel . marketing: So for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the the colour , project manager: if we think of something , like I was saying also lime and lemon you know , project manager: marketing: what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . We just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the project manager: Okay . industrial designer: Is there a particular shape that you're interested in ? Like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? marketing: industrial designer: Does it need with a square thing wha project manager: Oh you know like in circular in shape or industrial designer: Yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of marketing: Yeah . project manager: 'Cause I I I was kinda thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones , user interface: See I'm project manager: and they're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch . And then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it's gonna have to be boxy and rectangular and I think we might be moving away from that you know so Well I'm do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or marketing: No no no not at all . marketing: It's more more just that we we think about like what it is we're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with . project manager: Okay right well marketing: Do you know what ? project manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing . project manager: A snowman shape ? user interface: so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need . That's quite a distinctive shape , marketing: Right , project manager: that would be good marketing: sure . project manager: so yeah should we go with that ? marketing: can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a project manager: Do you wanna draw it on the board ? user interface: marketing: Can you like yeah just t we can visualize it . user interface: something like that you got two groups there maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside project manager: Ooh that'd be good . and colour-wise what does everybody think ? I think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . user interface: So I reckon it'd look quite nice if we just had this here , had a sorta background yellow , marketing: project manager: -huh . and also how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? The fact that it talks to you , it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , I dunno . Or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere . project manager: I d I d any thoughts on that at all ? user interface: I think that'd probably scare me . unless an a if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate an L_C_D_ display , where would we put that ? Would we put that on the inside or industrial designer: Do we need an L_C_D_ display ? user interface: industrial designer: What what's the functionality of that ? project manager: It's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , I would've thought . industrial designer: Yeah but the question is what are we using it marketing: What would it achieve ? industrial designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? Putting in lights is cheap but putting in an L_C_D_ panel just to make it glow is a bit of a marketing: Well L_C_ well I'd when you used to mention the L_C_D_ I'd think I wonder what that would be about . And the th the thing I could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with listings . marketing: So as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is . I think that will be a problem because we don't have an input device to get the listings into it , marketing: Right , okay . industrial designer: I I'm not saying there's no need for an L_C_D_ display , but it's what's what what would it tell the user , project manager: I think that would make it very complex . industrial designer: 'cause the L_C_D_ tends to be an output as as opposed to an input so does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? project manager: Yeah . marketing: not real industrial designer: We have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? marketing: project manager: I don't know if there is really , marketing: project manager: no industrial designer: project manager: I would say no need for a talk-back . project manager: so you're gonna have the three different sets of of functionalities , do you wanna group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you're thinking ? user interface: well I think the advanced ones the the ones you don't usually use could be hid inside . user interface: B I think the we had were fairly basic ones , they'd have to go on the the front somewhere . project manager: Okay right what else do you need to talk about ? marketing: Well i I was just industrial designer: Where would you physically position the buttons ? I think that that has some impact on on on many things . project manager: So I'm just gonna pop this in here 'cause I have a slide about decision making which I'd forgotten about . energy what do you think that's suggesting we're how we're powering the thing ? I really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power , marketing: Yeah , sure . project manager: what does anybody think about that ? marketing: I've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you're committing the user to moving it , industrial designer: No , like I said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it's not gonna charge the battery , it's just marketing: and watches yeah Sure , okay , right , okay . marketing: just it's just worth pointing out because like I've I've known I've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time , project manager: marketing: and it's just like magic because it's always powered and there's no battery . I've also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it's just too much of a nuisance because I don't wear it all the time . marketing: Like remote control is similar , you're away on vacation , I dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down . Well I suppose that if you're if you're away and you're not using it , then you're not using any power either . marketing: So we should think about project manager: So you'd have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea marketing: Yeah . project manager: I'm really sorry we're gonna have to wrap up quite quickly , we don't have as much time as I thought . project manager: Chip on print , is that that's an industrial design thing , is it David ? industrial designer: Yes yes . project manager: Okay as for the case , kind of discussed that marketing: And this size here , I'd suggest this be small , like quite small . marketing: just a a lot of the one of the things running through my mind right now , I realise we're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made , project manager: marketing: but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it's almost like we're reproducing the same old remote control that's out there . marketing: Should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly theme like what is it that we're u we're using to to achieve those goals ? project manager: Could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that . you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable , marketing: Yeah clear , project manager: Aye that would be a good idea . project manager: S so like cur slightly transparent case , so it's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it . project manager: Is that what you mean ? industrial designer: You know you have cordless mice and they don't eat that much power right . industrial designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , doesn't make it freaky . and then the other thing that we we're s we've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so I'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like some kind of an innovative concept about how the the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that's the main thing people will f wanna do . marketing: Could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ? industrial designer: The question is when you're rolling it , how do you wanna roll it ? marketing: Or industrial designer: Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'Cause in a mouse your hand's in a position to roll it , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally . project manager: Yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , couldn't you ? marketing: Well why don't we do it like a mouse then ? project manager: If you're holding it in your hand you could industrial designer: That's a very unnatural motion to project manager: Do you think ? industrial designer: yeah . it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: If you have a Telewest box you've got like , you don't have to buy all the channels , marketing: project manager: okay okay industrial designer: and I don't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it's confusing to the marketing: Yeah , sure . project manager: user interface: Well , but then for for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to to skip the channel button , the number part . industrial designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they're like Because that's becomes the most accessible thing in front of project manager: Okay . marketing: But that's not a bad thing is it ? project manager: Just marketing: Because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button . project manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . I'm all for them actually , I think they're quite you know th very quick to m to use . project manager: So does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? No . And the other thing was can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? marketing: Yeah like if we if if we keep coming back to this board here , project manager: -huh . marketing: I wouldn't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , I dunno , that it's within the shape of the hand , it's quite small project manager: -huh ooh okay , we really gotta wrap up marketing: I dunno . It's small , and that we've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side , project manager: Okay well if we can do that , great . marketing: well isn't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? project manager: Yeah let's let's try and get the slogan on there , and marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: So you wanna expand the shape of the marketing: And then like a jo And then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like I dunno like here , in with the industrial designer: That that might have one problem in terms of in terms of whether you're left handed or you're right handed you might be locking yourself in . industrial designer: Could I just could I just jump in and suggest something quickly ? project manager: Okay . Right I'm gonna have to user interface: marketing: A jog di project manager: I'm really gonna have to hurry you on here 'cause we're we're actually over time . It's kind of yeah project manager: Just for in closing just the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gonna hopefully be doing , I know that the designers are gonna be working with Play-doh on that . Anything at all you think we haven't discussed that we need to ? Is everybody kind of happy about what they're gonna be doing ? marketing: industrial designer: I think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that's gonna have quite a big impact on the thing marketing: Yeah I think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it , industrial designer: Yeah that's what I was thinking the marketing: that'd be great . industrial designer: There's lots of space for it project manager: That's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah . industrial designer: Yeah but it's also a a marketing and a function user interface: marketing: Sure , yeah , project manager: Okay . marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we'd do plastic and rubber , didn't we , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: and I think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that'd just be so standard . project manager: To make something flush with the case ? marketing: Something a bit more flush , yeah , project manager: Okay right . marketing: so that it has and also t plastic I've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand . user interface: marketing: They feel kind of like , you get pens now and then that you'd think that they were rubber but they're not , industrial designer: No like Yeah yeah . marketing: they're actually just plastic that's textured , industrial designer: Yeah yeah kinda like that yeah . marketing: kind of a little bit like project manager: Okay I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to call this to a close 'cause we're way over time . So that's really good , like we've s had much to talk about that pretty much run out of time to do so . marketing: industrial designer: Okay , can I just swipe your power cable , I don't think it matters . Okay lemme okay , I'm gonna pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . I'm gonna take the microphones , 'cause it's too lazy t take them off again <doc-sep>project manager: Hello , this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . project manager: the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . So , we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so basically I just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we've had from looking at some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , we've discovered that this year fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . marketing: so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that's really fancy , has lots of technolog tech technology in it . user interface: marketing: And that it's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the Real Reaction company . marketing: So fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: Okay . So I am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I think I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it later . generally , generally this remote control should be should be something , in my opinion , the first feature is just to be easy to use . So , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position inside the remote control . And s I can conclude like this , that we shouldn't need to learn how to use it . It should be we shouldn't need to es open a a t book and start reading and learning how to use this this remote control . So what I found out that as I said I think it's better to put more frequent ke buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . user interface: And maybe just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . And also f m because because customers doesn't like to buy lots of battery , it should not consume lots of energy . And my personal p preference is , as I said , just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used that much like settings button , like mobile phone . Usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put volume change or s ch can channel change buttons in the remote control . And if the user needed to do some more complex task he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . And also I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . For example , a sliding or rolling d stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with thumb . And I dunno but I think usage of a speech recogn r recogniser can be good . I know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . And I think it's good because it's something new and usually young people like something new . industrial designer: okay , so good news from me for me from Hamed , but bad news from Bob obviously , because spongy design , I don't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: Okay , so could you please , Fabien , open it . I Most of the things I have to write myself on the board , but project manager: This one , yeah . This this is just one thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just I just found this , that our company developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I'll just marketing: Inch . industrial designer: Yeah , seven seven inch T_ T_F_T_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . industrial designer: Okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . first thing is this will be the overall shape , no I'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can And if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which I found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can supply everything . I was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it's okay to use just two batteries and solar cells , so . the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . It depends where you put your screen , because the screen is seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . Then the graphical card for the T_F_T_ and the third unit is the I_R_ . The good news is that we can we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . So the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the T_F_T_ which is seven inches . I have to check what I wanted to from my point of view I don't care about the about the material used for the overall des ov all the device . project manager: Can you fit any for example a T_F_T_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? For example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , I can I can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: A all these things in in in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . Maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it's around the T_F_T_ then it's good , because it's just keeps it safe , project manager: Okay . user interface: Well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: This seven inch T_F_T_ screen , industrial designer: Yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: Well , seven to seven inches . industrial designer: marketing: have we decided that we're gonna use this T_F_T_ screen ? project manager: No , I don't think it's seven by seven , industrial designer: Yeah but project manager: I think it's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: To be honest , I was project manager: Usually when they say seven inch I think it's the diagonal . industrial designer: Yeah , honestly speaking I was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . industrial designer: So marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . marketing: So , what's the size of the device ? industrial designer: Ah well this is like this is almost nothing . marketing: Even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: Yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: Is it Can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: Because if it's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: A sm industrial designer: marketing: But is something that's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: W I I think so . I if the roller buttons are on the side you don't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow Well , that's that's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: So maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . , so I think we have a lot We have to take decision today , so I think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . first I think energy it's a key problem because it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . Because can we have L_C_D_ and speech recognition with battery , and it's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: Not J just a point to the energy th things . If we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it's okay for L_ speech recognition and L_C_D_ , project manager: Okay . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? Are are what Maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: Yeah I was thinking just common A_A_ cells . marketing: So if we use s solar cells , where is the sun if someone's watching T_V_ inside ? industrial designer: S d doesn't need to be sun . industrial designer: Yeah well I I suppose that I suppose that that this remote control won't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . project manager: At least when there is T_V_ you can get light from the T_V_ . industrial designer: Ah it's a it's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: At least it's new and maybe technology New technology . industrial designer: Yeah , that's why I wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . user interface: project manager: So I think before talking about the other thing , it's important thing it's the case . industrial designer: project manager: what what are gonna be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . For example for the for the L_C_D_ , if we choose to have a small device , we cannot use this a such a a a screen . Well what what would you guess as a shape ? Or what what would be the shape ? user interface: . And I prefer to is it shouldn't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . You can take some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it's it's designed for your f taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . So seven not seven but let's say five by ten it's I think it's that's my opinion . industrial designer: Yeah , I think it's feasib Well one How could we do it ? We could put the board next to , well , under the L_C_D_ and for example make the L_C_D_ be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . industrial designer: Like holding something , and the L_C_D_ to be just on top of it , you know somehow . I've I s I think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller L_C_D_ , if it's possible . industrial designer: Okay , so five to ten , I I think it's it's feasible . user interface: but I don't want to now invent something new , because we didn't discuss about it . So using some L_C_D_s we can touch , so we can remove keys and just having , I dunno the name , L_C_D_ responding to fingers . user interface: So But for now if we don't want to use such kind of screens I I think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: Yeah . user interface: because project manager: The problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we cannot do something very new . user interface: project manager: So let's go for a small L_C_D_ . marketing: So industrial designer: Okay , so Yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: A smaller s project manager: Yeah okay . something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? My first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , I thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: Seven to ten banana . marketing: Well it's it's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . user interface: marketing: what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: But it's just an idea . I dunno what you think about , but marketing: Do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Well , but If it's If it If the banana is big enough . Well user interface: project manager: Yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: I think this is not good . project manager: The screen has to be square ? Or it can be like a a shape , quite , with curves . industrial designer: But if it's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . But if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . I think that's more important than saving a bit of money on on the T_F_T_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit fatter than than the c c common one . Yeah , it should remember banana , but it's not doesn't have to b to be really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . project manager: So we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: Well it we'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: Okay . project manager: So , the last point we decided it's infra-red , I guess . You have other thing to add to this point , or no ? So , about the user interface , so we are going to use L_C_D_ . You talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: Like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: Yeah , peeling of the banana . marketing: industrial designer: First layer obviously spo Yeah , project manager: So industrial designer: w It's it's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah I think . project manager: Is it is it possible to do that ? It would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: project manager: Like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: I think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it's easy to make that , project manager: Yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: user interface: Yeah , some Something like a plastic cover covering some interface , U_S_B_ interface as in the in digital camera . You open a plastic cover and you see some U_S_B_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . So keys can be buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and when and when you open this cover it's like peeling a banana . project manager: Yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: Well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah it's a lic like a plastic cover , so . industrial designer: So I think if it's so then it's cool ? project manager: So , I dunno what you think , Bob , but it would be great for users I think , and very good for marketing . maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , I dunno how to do that technically , or . Yeah or a Yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover sticking to the to the all the stuff like with magnetic p magnetic magnetic materials in the border , so it's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . So you you can be sure that it will not be open while you're while while you are commonly using buttons on the banana . industrial designer: Well since since the since the things like the like the screen and how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we cannot b So we need that the that the peeling I dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . So , if if the solar cell won't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . So you're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: It is possible , but , well if it marketing: And a and a banana . industrial designer: I dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: And something we forgot , maybe , about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: Yes , I think . project manager: So we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: . marketing: user interface: project manager: And , yeah , I I think you should work together , s you Hamed and Peter , to work in a in a first prototype , and more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together

Marketing presented on market trends and suggested strategies for the remote control, emphasizing the importance of a fancy look and feel, as well as incorporating European fashion themes with fruit and vegetable shapes. They also highlighted the trend of using soft and spongy materials. The team discussed the results of a marketing survey on remote controls and agreed to design remotes with a more fancy outlook and fewer buttons. The goal was to make the remote easier to find and less complicated, reducing the time users need to learn its functionality. They also discussed implementing voice recognition and a scroller button, and decided to include a child lock feature that can be opened with a specific code. The team also discussed the set of vocabularies for the speech recognizer, deciding to include numbers and words. However, they acknowledged the challenge of making the speech recognizer distinguish between different voices and handle background noise, and planned to continue discussing it. From a marketing perspective, the highest priority was the fancy look and feel of the remote, followed by technological innovation and ease of use. The marketing team also emphasized the use of spongy materials for the remote's feel.

Summarize the presentation and discussion on market trends, specific details connected with market interests, the result of marketing research, and fashion trends.

We're here to have a kick-off meeting for the design of a f for the beginning of new project remote control for the design for a new remote control . marketing: project manager: So I'm first going to do an opening then we get used to one anothers and we speak about this tool we're going to design and try to make a project plan , some discussion and then we talk of the next meeting . marketing: project manager: I think the important points we have to t talk about are it's functional design , it's conceptual design , and desail detailed design . project manager: user interface: It's gonna be not my favourite one but the one I can draw . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: And it's gonna be you'll try to guess . marketing: A r a rabbit , oh oh yeah , where is the carrot ? project manager: user interface: That's it . project manager: You want to go ? industrial designer: marketing: I am not very good at this kind of stuff . industrial designer: marketing: My favourite animal is project manager: industrial designer: You wa marketing: user interface: Wow . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: What about you project manager: yeah Christa Pavlov . project manager: So they have to be waterproof maybe ? marketing: It has to be wha baby proof project manager: 'Cause they eat she ate it . marketing: because even if she's not very tall she's high enough so that when she throw it away it's industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: But how gonna okay , just but it's monochrome it's n it's not like industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah even we can change colours , no ? Like the marketing: Oh like the phones , industrial designer: like the phones and these things we c yeah . project manager: Small also ? Don't you think industrial designer: Huh not so big like yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , not too much buttons and marketing: Should it be , y you know these remote controls where they are what they call a universal ret remote control project manager: marketing: so y you can decide that now it's the remote control for the television , then it's the remote control for the the sound system , or for your refrigerator industrial designer: . project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: marketing: whatever project manager: that's marketing: I dunno if it's project manager: marketing: Or if we should have a targeted re remote control . marketing: So colour , robustness , easy to use , size , project manager: So , I think there's marketing: yeah , size matters , yeah . Colour , size , sh project manager: So you you think it's better if small than bigger . marketing: But what would be different from this , from the others ? I dunno if industrial designer: maybe we can change the colours that at least the frame . marketing: I think one thing important for instance in this remote control if you remember when people use it they're they never find a good button in the right place . marketing: For some reason they they they click the off button when they want to use the industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: So there's a problem in the design of that kind of remote control somehow , project manager: . So , some kind of idea with cellular phone with a a screen that will tell you what marketing: I dunno . marketing: Too expensive for twelve Euro ? user interface: And n maybe not too expensive , project manager: And too expensive . marketing: So ma I prefer to have the off button at the top right , industrial designer: Ye yeah . marketing: so I would have my own design of the remote control because it's in fact just a a full touch screen remote control , industrial designer: . industrial designer: it it's like marketing: I don't know if it makes sense , but project manager: industrial designer: it's like two types no ? people are right handed or left handed so y because I am left handed I use like this , say if you're right handed you use like this marketing: Yeah , for instance , . industrial designer: user interface: so how many actions do we need to implement in it ? industrial designer: huh . user interface: On off ? industrial designer: Maybe I think even we can keep two switches and then we can only make one working . industrial designer: We can adapt only one switch , suppose here like we can make two switches and if I'm left-hander I use this switch to follow the main operations . user interface: if it's less than three then we can make it like a industrial designer: Two . marketing: Three buttons you mean ? user interface: like three mental states , project manager: Three option . project manager: Maybe if it's more , if there is a software inside industrial designer: project manager: that ask you three user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: If it if we want a r universal remote control that we sa like we say before it may may need more than three three button , three possibilities , ye yeah . user interface: But for standard actions you usually what do you do , you change channels , you adjust volume , and nothing else . marketing: Yeah but for instance when you change channels you can have you can just go to the next one or go to channel twenty five . industrial designer: marketing: Because I'm only using three or four channels but industrial designer: Yeah . But they keep generally their t slash slash this thing and then the dash dash and then you can put yeah , you can only have one bit . I change channel like this , m I want to go to twenty five , and then to ten , -huh yeah . marketing: And then back to the one I was before , project manager: Also we can be here marketing: so there's whichever it was . project manager: marketing: Then you can watch what your ah you could also record your record your sequence of actions , industrial designer: . marketing: that becomes more complex , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: but you could look at what the other people have used there or remote controls . project manager: we're going to meet again in thirty minutes and I want you to work on these ideas and try to make a the ones , make to decide what what are the ones important and what are the one that we don't want . marketing: So what does M_E_ means ? M_E_ the user requirements ? Or that's that's for us ? user interface: Market Expert . user interface: marketing: Oh , of course yeah , the user requirement specifications , -huh , yeah <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: It's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . marketing: What ? user interface: No mouse needed ? marketing: I've got a touch-pad . marketing: Do you know how how I can wake it up ? user interface: A touch-pad ? marketing: No , my laptop . project manager: some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . You all received an email with a example of our explanation of what the particular level of design means to the different functions , and you p you probably read that already , so I don't have to tell you about that . project manager: Okay , first we're gonna gonna try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these meeting tools . You can upload your documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your PowerPoint presentations on this screen . , we're gonna skip through th user interface: Can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: No , no . user interface: No , I saw I saw the file , the smart-board that X_B_K_ but project manager: Oh , no . Is is if it's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so I don't think it's I don't know if it's important . , we well , we use the same file during the whole day , and you can make new sheets by by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . And you can make new fi new blanks , and you can change the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . And I like its overall aggressive look and Well , that's what I like about piranha . , I don't know what my favourite animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal I can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: I will marketing: project manager: marketing: You know , I thought of that actually . project manager: user interface: Yeah , it's the most simple animal I know , I think . user interface: M marketing: I haven't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: Pictionary . user interface: industrial designer: Which is not as the case with with bingwings and project manager: Well , you can have a piranha at home . industrial designer: It's not very very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: It's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: Ah , it's not scared . user interface: marketing: He's crying because it's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: What do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: it's i most cats are small . Okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are through the tool training , I guess . industrial designer: marketing: I wouldn't call it training , but project manager: Okay , this is something about the project finance . user interface: project manager: The market range is international , so it's gonna be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve Euro fifty per remote control . project manager: Okay , we're now gonna discuss some stuff when well , we're gonna brainstorm about what kind of kemoro romo remote control it's gonna be . Do you have know what good experiences with remote controls ? Or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: Yes . project manager: Are they difficult to understand , or maybe they don't interact with different kind of equipment very well ? user interface: . marketing: I don't th I don't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: Yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new T_V_ because their previous one was stolen or whatever . marketing: And then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . All th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one project manager: Different functions of of marketing: Well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . marketing: And same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: And , is it gonna be a remote control that's what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your T_V_ and your home stereo ? marketing: Well I was I was thinking since a T_V_ is mostly used together with a V_C_R_ or D_V_D_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , I think it should be good to include functions for V_C_R_s and D_V_D_ players , recorders . But , the D_V_D_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . project manager: Oh , it is only for televis user interface: I thought it was only for television . So so we probably don't have to have to have the functions for D_V_D_ player or V_C_R_ . marketing: Yes , it is only for television , but project manager: So wha what What wha what what document marketing: Well well we we're gonna brainstorm about that . project manager: But , where where did it Where did you find that ? user interface: in the email . industrial designer: Yes , marketing: But I was thinking since it is useful with D_V_D_ project manager: Yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . project manager: Okay , but we've gonna put some a is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: True . project manager: Well , this the maybe is some aspect of the , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . project manager: That w Well , then you're you're the usability man , so this gonna be a very important task for you then . Well , other ideas ? How can we make it trendy or something ? Do by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: to go with to go with fashion and project manager: Maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: For the bear . Or someth something special , like M_P_ three player inside of it , or user interface: I I , no I think it project manager: Oh , well then the production costs are gonna be too high probably . user interface: I th I think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . Maybe with different type of fronts or user interface: It's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: Well , m has to be something spectacular or one which makes it marketing: Well that's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly Well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . project manager: No , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand I guess . 'Kay , so you the technical part of the process is something you're gonna look after for , so you have to think about what kind of equipment you want to , you know , you want to manage with it . Well , and that's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . The the Industrial Designer will w or the working design , of course , we will Already s said that . project manager: Oh , and what does it said ? marketing: And it said five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: Oh , I don't project manager: W Okay , well user interface: I didn't get a message . project manager: And it's it's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . project manager: You can all Or we're all marketing: Project joc project documents is for showing on the white-board . project manager: or or sh or should we or is important that we leave at exact industrial designer: No . project manager: user interface: I don't think Oh marketing: Yes ? project manager: Yes <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: and , I'll be taking minutes on this one , and Being hooked up to the PowerPoint for this meeting isn't very necessary for myself , because it'll be more about , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . 'Cause I was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . industrial designer: so I was looking at how we're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . And it needs to allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . , from , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there're certain points that will make our product unique . And we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we're using a mobile phone , or something fam familiar . Or we could use fluorescent materials which would just take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . So if we lost the remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . , another thing I think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . , from previous researches I've carried out on other projects , we've learnt about smart materials where specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: So they can be heated and and cooled , and they change the shape of the metal . So , for example , a screw that's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . So , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , everything would spring apart . So , all the individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and I think that would be very important for products now . Especially 'cause there's much responsibility for all the companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'Cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: So that , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: And then Yeah . Yeah they would , you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it's the product's responsibility to get rid of what they've made . , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gonna wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . Something like the case , if it's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . Would we be the company that would break down these , or metals ? Or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: You could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . industrial designer: but project manager: One thing we have to consider is our one hundred percent turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . project manager: so we'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Well I the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they don't need to be manually de deconstructed . industrial designer: So I suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: Alright . project manager: I'm sorry , could you industrial designer: There we go project manager: Those were industrial designer: . , an' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . industrial designer: Okay ? So , now is it F_ eight again to escape ? Or escape ? There we go . Can you see ? marketing: Oh , user interface: Do you think Is it , function eight yeah ? project manager: Yeah . , in this case it's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . By taking inspiration from other similar designs , we'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . A single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . user interface: I think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it's easier to use . , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . And probably more sellable just because it's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . Does anyone have any questions ? marketing: So as far as we know , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: Well , it's just that , when we're creating it , we're , we have to make it compatible with different brands of devices . user interface: And it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: D_V_D_s and V_C_R_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: Right . project manager: Does everyone agree with this ? Does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: I was just wondering about the , what , what Genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . And that would probably , I d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . Do you think ? marketing: Yeah , I think I agree with the single design thing for now , because we're trying to do so much , that if we're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it's also multi also multifunctional , we're gonna go over budget for one thing . project manager: Alright , well , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation Genevieve ? marketing: Yes I am . Except you're not hooked up to the marketing: Oh , user interface: marketing: I'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? The functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . , I've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , and some internet research . project manager: I'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . marketing: Any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: . marketing: you know who's famous , what T_V_ shows are being watched , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: the other twenty five percent didn't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . project manager: I'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . You mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: Yeah , they're willing , they're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . marketing: As opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . project manager: And another thing with lots of surfing , we'd probably have to work on something that could be a lot more durable , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: because I find with channel-changers that , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they're printed on the button . marketing: And actually to go with that , I'm gonna give you some statistics on the relevancy of the buttons , how much they're used . , so obviously when commercials come on they're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that's not gonna run down . user interface: It has T_V_ has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . marketing: So like a running banner , underneath project manager: No it's a button that you press , and then you , like a menu pops up . industrial designer: It's like user interface: And you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it'll come up . industrial designer: Yeah , it's just information that , like television timetables , what's on , what's on now , what's on next , on every channel , and marketing: Right . Well I guess I'm not with it , because I wasn't But it's , it's being used fourteen times an hour . So it looks like something that we're gonna want to do some research on and include on our remote control . You know if you get a new T_V_ set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: To get the right reception and picture , I suppose . marketing: Is that what it is ? People with arthritis and such ? project manager: That's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: maybe our industrial designer: Oh , I'm guessing that's what it is . marketing: But we'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . Ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s Interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . So I guess we're gonna have to figure out what age group we're , we're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wanna look into . project manager: I agree with if we're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . project manager: and especially if we are trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . project manager: ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably won't be as concerned . I don't know if it'd be , if we'd still have a remote , or if you're talking to your television and saying change channel . marketing: So it m it may be too complicated for us , but it's something to keep in mind anyway . industrial designer: And if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: although in theory it doesn't tend to be when you're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific design . project manager: We need to decide if that is our intention is , is a simplistic design . project manager: because if , if it is then I think voice , voice-activated marketing: It looks like project manager: Yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they won't be using a , they won't be talking into a remote , I'm sure . an L_C_D_ screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this PowerPoint is working . industrial designer: What , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: I have no idea still . marketing: now that's , I , I dunno exactly what exactly we'd put on there . Could it it It would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . But that would probably be industrial designer: Like linked in with the teletext , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: marketing: Well I guess that's something we can all take back to our respective research . Every remote control looks the same , so in my opinion it should be , user-friendly and unique . user interface: marketing: So if we're , if we're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: . if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . But if we wanna make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . user interface: And we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five Euros to spend on a remote control . Like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they're just starting out marketing: you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah I'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that's three months allowance . marketing: so I I think , I think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . And if one of the largest , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: Twenties . project manager: I'm sure that something like an L_C_D_ screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . Before we go into more discussion on we want this design to look like , I've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . , for one thing , because Having controls with D_V_D_ , V_C_R_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . , we've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television function . Which is good as , as we've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . Another thing that might affect other decisions is that the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . industrial designer: Were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: well , we don't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: Yeah . This is for the design , the design of the product is that we wanna create , more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . So , all the remote controls must have our We'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . project manager: So , perhaps our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . project manager: it doesn't have to be the colour of our of our company industrial designer: Just project manager: but , another thing is that , industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . , I'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting I , I wasn't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . , so , now we need to discuss , and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . industrial designer: marketing: Okay , so I Are we going to write off the L_C_D_ option ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: I think it would be annoying though if I don't use teletext that much , but if it was on your T_V_ , you'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: Yeah , but another thing is that if we're reaching an international crowd , I know for one that in North America there is no such thing as teletext , so it'd be really superfluous . project manager: Do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: I don't know . industrial designer: But if Was it a management decision that we're having project manager: It was a management decision , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: so it's , it's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: Minimal marketing: And the What was the word they used ? F findability is important . project manager: 'Cause I'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: Yeah . user interface: Would you be able to , put the little device anywhere ? 'Cause isn't our remote control for all T_V_s , so industrial designer: If user interface: you'd ha industrial designer: Do you mean the the link between the user interface: Yeah , with the button that you pressed . user interface: C 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one T_V_ set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . project manager: Yeah , it would have t industrial designer: Maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be yeah not very obtrusive . Then it wouldn't , it probably wouldn't be able to use It would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control I guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . user interface: Would it need a battery then ? project manager: Maybe , industrial designer: Pr probably . industrial designer: Unless it could be project manager: That's your department you'll have to sort that out . , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the T_V_'s supplied from . project manager: Yeah , you'll have to industrial designer: So , more research into that one . project manager: Yeah , you'll have to investi Do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: Yeah . , alright , and I'm sure that , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , is a go ahead . Is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: Y marketing: On the buttons ? user interface: I I like the light up suggestion . user interface: 'Cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: it doesn't user interface: I would go for marketing: It could it could be a tactile thing as well . right , if w if we're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . industrial designer: Like a raised marketing: and I don't know what we could do for , for channels . S user interface: Well just the numbers could be embossed , couldn't it ? Like raised . user interface: Just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: Yeah marketing: Yeah . marketing: I just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . project manager: But industrial designer: And also y , Heather you mentioned before , like how it should be accessible to everybody . industrial designer: So like you say tactile might be better , because it'd be more available to everybody . Could we somehow We could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . project manager: 'Cause I d I don't think that glow-in-the-dark material , like the actual soft plastic , costs that much more than other colours . marketing: I guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you're s and then it goes , industrial designer: Yeah . I know , I'm thinking of mostly when you're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . marketing: And you don't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there's suddenly an explosion , and it's gonna wake up the baby . industrial designer: I project manager: for the meeting , but I think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . What were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: Oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell You know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . marketing: if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it's touched again . marketing: Yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: So , self-timed marketing: So if you have all the lights off in your living room , you'll , you'll temporarily see it . project manager: So , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? Do we have to kind of decide what we're gonna do with this . And as you're saying like numbers can wear off if they're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . And it could , if it's that softer rubber material it'll be , maybe , better for people with els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what's it called , R_S_I_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: Oh yeah . , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: project manager: Or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: If project manager: Like should we do both ? Or we can have one or the other ? Because it might , for , for our design purposes , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . industrial designer: Yeah , and we could marketing: whereas we're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: Yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: So industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . industrial designer: or like we've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: Right . user interface: I was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the Real Reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . And do you have anything marketing: What project manager: Do you have anything to say ? marketing: Oh sorry . So I I dunno if there's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . I dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . Interchangeable thing ? marketing: Yeah , project manager: Like an iPod or something ? user interface: That would be good . marketing: And I dunno if we'd want to go with like T_V_ show themes or something . user interface: Yeah , and then that would be more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . You could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: als project manager: You'd just get one mould , user interface: No . industrial designer: Interchan And also possible , we could gain out of that by advertising certain T_V_ shows , or project manager: Yeah . project manager: So , if it takes off then we'll , we'll , we'll try that out . project manager: Do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: I've project manager: Because we need to investigate the financial implications . Is it industrial designer: Let's project manager: Does it need to be decided on now ? Or should we industrial designer: I think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then <doc-sep>project manager: Are we we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ? project manager: Yeah , I've got marketing: Right , both of them , okay . project manager: I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . , we want it to be original , something that's people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , first is the functional design , this is where we all go off and do our individual work , what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and sum up the characteristics of that animal . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger . Where did this come from ? project manager: Is that your lapel then ? user interface: yep . , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ? marketing: A kind of dog ? project manager: user interface: Yep . It's your best friend and your you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . marketing: Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little , project manager: industrial designer: Alright , okay . industrial designer: Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random . project manager: Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is marketing: user interface: . project manager: industrial designer: Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be project manager: industrial designer: because that looks like a beak now , so . Is it gonna be marketing: user interface: industrial designer: Well it was it was an at first project manager: it's gonna be a bird . industrial designer: firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican marketing: O industrial designer: but it can be a crocodile now actually . marketing: Beauti that's industrial designer: scary , strong , yeah that's about it I think . , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills , industrial designer: marketing: mine's are dreadful . industrial designer: Wo marketing: I hope that clicks in , I'll just I'll hold it on , okay . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: Oops , oh dear , what happened there ? project manager: Technical help . marketing: Okay , Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , . industrial designer: Okay , some sort of bird marketing: That's my dreadful that's the worst yet , that's it's meant to be an eagle project manager: A seagu user interface: Eagle , okay . marketing: you can tell it's a flying animal could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . marketing: Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ? project manager: Eagle . industrial designer: marketing: I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ? industrial designer: It's about user interface: One point four or something like that . industrial designer: so that project manager: D fifteen ? industrial designer: yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that . marketing: Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ? project manager: I think so , I think so , industrial designer: But project manager: I'll be able to pull it up , marketing: Yeah , okay . industrial designer: Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway . I think marketing: so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ? project manager: Yeah , production cost's at twelve fifty , so industrial designer: . project manager: which is marketing: In our first year ? project manager: Yi yes , yeah , I presume so . user interface: So then marketing: You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a accessible and usable by sort of all age groups project manager: marketing: just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone project manager: No , yeah . project manager: yes , yes , I don't think we have to I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , making that a key point , marketing: No . project manager: just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I've got we got we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up user interface: project manager: so we got one of the universal remote controls , that you programme each of your things into , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: that c project manager: but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but that was quite good , the fact that you could You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you . user interface: Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like industrial designer: Yeah , user interface: Okay . industrial designer: 'cause you marketing: My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions , project manager: . marketing: I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well . project manager: Yeah , the main that's the main stuff anyway , marketing: project manager: and you don't want to I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do marketing: . When they're when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it . project manager: 'Cause it doesn't make when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at , marketing: . marketing: Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display , user interface: marketing: I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus . user interface: And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe . project manager: What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ? user interface: You mean to save it lesser number . project manager: my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that . project manager: I don't think they tape things , industrial designer: Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so project manager: I don't think they use marketing: Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps , project manager: yeah , the age gap . industrial designer: Yeah , what it just needs to be as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do . project manager: I don't know , I d industrial designer: But I don't know how project manager: I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system . project manager: I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but my friend got a new one marketing: Right . project manager: and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me . industrial designer: Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get , marketing: project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ? user interface: Okay . marketing: Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things marketing: project manager: and also and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over . S project manager: I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about industrial designer: Y user interface: It might marketing: Yeah ? user interface: it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small . marketing: And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ? project manager: . project manager: right , okay industrial designer: No project manager: we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation . industrial designer: about what you're saying about the does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui marketing: Ah right . industrial designer: and it'd look quite good but marketing: But yeah , it doesn't have to be that , you know th that was my main point , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper , project manager: . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter , marketing: Right <doc-sep>See , shall we wait ? I'm not sure if he's late or delayed or whatever , so I'm gonna start soon , we have now don't have much time anyway . project manager: have a little thoughts on what your vision is and on this project , so I put the minutes on the I made on the on the p the the project share , so if you wanna review them , they're there . I will do so after every meeting , so if you have some information you wanna take back you can find it there . after that I got some new project requirements from project board , so we're gonna go af go after over this later . marketing: there was a little problem with my computer so not the whole presentation project manager: Anyway , let's see what you have . The the method we used it it's not m not a slide , because it went wrong , but the method we use , we tested it w with a hundred men , and we asked them to w what the remote f feel like and what what's important . project manager: If I can cut in , is it people or men ? marketing: People , project manager: Is it people , okay . project manager: 'Cause I thought it was only men , marketing: Both women and men , project manager: so marketing: yeah . marketing: Yeah , and yeah , most th th they want to spend money for a better system , for better remote control , so we can do a l a little nice things with it , and they use yeah , they use zap a lot , fifty percent say they only So that's the most important things . marketing: oh yeah , not all of it is it on mine on my PowerPoint presentation , project manager: Okay , just talk ahead . marketing: they use it , but it's not very important on the scale of zero to ten they six and a half project manager: Okay , that's okay . user interface: marketing: and but not important is the channel selection , the the ? project manager: That's a little weird . marketing: Oh , user interface: Which channel selection ? marketing: the the no no no no no , that's very important , but w and not important in the audio settings , display settings project manager: Okay , marketing: and project manager: we can we can hide those under a menu or something , user interface: Oh , okay . beep to find your control , was project manager: That's like a button on your T_V_ ? marketing: that was in the test , the the most people f find it irritating when they cannot find a rem their remote control , project manager: Remote , okay . marketing: so I think it's a bee beep to sound it and you can find it . And another thing they want was speech recognition so they can say what they want to let's go to channel one and that's kind of things . marketing: And they want maybe an L_C_D_ screen to to look it wh what's on every channel and what do I want with it ? user interface: project manager: We wanna have a little preview on the remote control . my personal preferences is a button for my favourite channel , so I can I dunno , so I can zap to my f quick to my favourite channel wh what I so , the remote mu must see or must see wha what mine preferences are for which channel , project manager: Okay , you don't set it yourself , marketing: so I can zap t to project manager: it just remembers the channel that you are on most , for example . marketing: What ? project manager: You want the you want it to be programmed , for example y programmed f marketing: Yeah . project manager: Let's see , you you spend twenty minutes each day on that channel , marketing: Recognise project manager: so it recognises your favourite channel . project manager: Okay , so it's it it does it recognise itself , you don't have to set it marketing: No , project manager: Okay . marketing: the computer crashed , project manager: No problem , it's it's okay , marketing: so . user interface: It sounds really easy , what does the user do , what does the th remote control do , but there are quite some issues . So the things I'm going to concentrate on are the user aspect , because the technical aspect , that's pretty much covered . Where is the remote control ? We've all had it once , I want to watch some television , marketing: Yeah . user interface: where's the remote control ? That was one of your ideas which you posted in the network folder , marketing: Yeah . user interface: There's nothing more annoying than faded symbols , because you don't know which channel is this button , so possibly we could find something for that , project manager: Okay , so have it more make it more durable actually . So you press more once remote control goes kablouey or something like that , project manager: Okay , so the buttons should be user interface: so we have to pay attention not to put too mun too many buttons on the remote control . user interface: So this is basically what I h had in mind in the fade-proof symbols , locator , a sound , so clear we should stick to existing symbols , but maybe we could do a little investigation to see whether some symbols are need to be replaced by others . So what we want to go to is not this one , project manager: Yeah , it's true . user interface: This is not the final design , project manager: No , of course user interface: this is just a general idea of how I'd like to see basically the general idea . So we agree on the the part that we need to get something on the on the remote to find it somewhere and increase it the durability of of the thing , user interface: Yeah , I think it's a really good idea . project manager: The other aspects , we'll just see how what you came up with and what's possible for that budget . if it should be programmeab grammeale then we need something like a mode that you can switch it . industrial designer: And how big is the remote control going to be ? I'll tell you why that's important to me . there are a lot of technical parts in the remote control , so that's why I also would like to say go a little bit easy on the designs , I heard ab you talking about beeps and about video screens , but the material inside and the technical aspects are quite complex already . industrial designer: So keep in mind that everything that you keep think of , it has to b to be built . that is how it is done and all the remote controls work that way , I think we can just go on with that . industrial designer: Exactly , so if we make a circuit board with the the connections already on it , then that's cheaper . project manager: So you have industrial designer: This is what look like looks like if you press one button , so this is not the entire thing . The switch if you p press it then some electrical charge goes into the processor , that thinks over a Morse code , that's how you should see it . You have infrared and an interv how to say it ? a light in indication , light that you know that it's functioning . industrial designer: here again , that's my story about the different modes , if you do want to make remote universal , then the processor has to make up a different Morse code when some button is pressed . That makes it much more complex , so we really need to have a look , do we want that or not . I don't have any personal p preferences so far , except for the materials to be used light , that they are light . Like you said teletext is not not very popular anymore because the the internet , nowadays people don't use the teletext anymore or hardly , so it can either Well , I don't think we should remove the button , because there are always people who are using it . project manager: But I don't think it should be very it should be one of the big buttons for example . we're targeting young people now , because our This is a new product and with this new product we want to appeal to younger people , marketing: . project manager: that's also good with the fashion and everything , marketing: B project manager: so yeah . marketing: Yeah , and they want to pay for it project manager: They want to pay for it , people are willing to spend money actually to buy a remote that they like . marketing: and project manager: If they like the way it looks , the way it functions , so they're actually gonna spend spend money on it . marketing: in the project manager: see how far we can go with it anyway , so marketing: Yeah . project manager: And one thing that should be important is that the corporate l colour and slogan are recognisable , which is apparently black and yellow , but I'm not sure if we I think we should keep the the logo in mind , because with colours you can have a lot of fashionable colours and everything on it , which suits everybody's taste . So With that concept I started thinking , so why not just steal Nokia's idea and just make changeable covers for your user interface: Oh . project manager: those cost hardly anything I think , and people could even spend extra money on buying a cover industrial designer: Yeah . That's just a little marketing idea that could be applied , so you can p it appeals to really everyone . project manager: So that was that was my idea on what we could do to appeal this product to everyone . project manager: just I'm not sure if you came up with anything in the meantime , after making a presentation . industrial designer: But marketing: But oh ? user interface: Is it manageable ? Is it easy ? industrial designer: Go ahead . marketing: Yeah , with with an L_C_D_ screen you can project manager: Oh yeah . I think we should lose the L_C_D_ screen , industrial designer: Y Yes , I think so too . I think for example it's it's huge I think the L_C_D_ is huge , user interface: Yeah . user interface: And it costs too much to fabricate , project manager: It costs a lot , I think . industrial designer: Okay , project manager: What we could do , what could be possible , is maybe not an L_C_D_ screen but with a preview , marketing: Okay . project manager: just just a text only , not colour , just a little text thing industrial designer: I have to check that out , project manager: but maybe okay , make it industrial designer: I'm not sure . project manager: Yeah , find a little compromise in that , but What did I write down ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: I think the p yeah , the beep is a very simple thing to imple implement , just make a button on your T_V_ industrial designer: That must be possible . user interface: And it's industrial designer: whe where do you wanna hit the T_ you wanna we want a button on the television . project manager: I thin Yeah , where else should you put it ? industrial designer: In th okay , but that rules out a universal remote control . project manager: but how are you gonna use that if your if your remote control is lost , how are you gonna press where are you gonna press the button ? industrial designer: . user interface: Maybe just a slap-on sticker with a button which sends out a small signal . project manager: A little little box you can attach to your T_V_ is fine then , okay . industrial designer: Okay , then I'd I'd like to know now if we want the universal remote control or not , because that's determines everything I'm gonna do . I think we should go for universal , industrial designer: If not project manager: because apparently we're a separate company making separate c remote controls to sell to a lot of diverse people . marketing: Everyone wants to buy it , so we w project manager: Yeah , I think we're targeting everyone , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: And it's marketing: Or when you say one two i it it's enough , project manager: Yeah , but I don't see Arabian people speaking one , two whatever . user interface: Besides that , the technology isn't really super yet , so that is a problem in implementing this . project manager: It's not a mature technology , I think it takes a lot of memory and everything in in a remote control , marketing: Okay . project manager: so user interface: It's a good idea , but it's just not I don't think the market's ripe for that yet . project manager: maybe we don't have have to do all the buttons , but especially the ones that are the popular buttons , so those always fade first . industrial designer: If we make a remote control with changeable covers , then we can also make a cover for every language area . project manager: For example ? industrial designer: That's fo is especially for older people , that they can read it read it in their own language . project manager: Well , we're not we're not targeting older people , marketing: Yeah . project manager: You assume that that they read correctly and I think they're industrial designer: Huh . project manager: The most important thing about young people is that they're really sensitive to to trends that are passing through the world , marketing: But b project manager: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: But should the exchangeable covers include the buttons themselves or just the project manager: No , of course . No , I think it's just something you you put over them , because Yeah we c Yeah , you ca Well , industrial designer: . project manager: tha that's not a that's not a bad that's not even user interface: C marketing: But every user interface: that's a problem with the with the text then . , for example , if you're if you're into the durability issue you could user interface: industrial designer: . project manager: For example , if your buttons are faded , after if you make a durable remote , they are faded , you can just buy a new cover . industrial designer: but I know that the buttons are like a Nokia telephone on one sleeve , project manager: industrial designer: It works the same as a Nokia telephone , it's it's in my 'kay . project manager: Yeah , I know , it's just just a one one piece of rubber for example , marketing: Yeah . Either either change both the buttons and and the cover or just the cover , I'm not sure which which is easier , industrial designer: . project manager: so anyway , yeah , this is what we're gonna do afterwards , just lunch break and have more individual work after that , so let's see what we let's see we So you have to come up with a components concept , yeah . I want some you should do some trend-watching , because even if we're if we're gonna do those covers and everything , what people really want , that's what we need to know in this phase , marketing: Yeah . project manager: because that's gonna be the essential final design that we're gonna come up with . for example I bought a remote control last week with a new T_V_ , it was it l it's like all buttons and you have no idea what it does at first , industrial designer: project manager: and I'm total T_V_ new , anyway . So I think it should be have less or l very little buttons and maybe a second second level menu for the advanced things . Or maybe just stick 'em under a menu , like you said the the sound options and the surround and whatever , they're more complicated , just stick 'em under one menu and give it a just put it in in s in a software piece , you can menu and you can select everything you want to to set on your T_V_ . user interface: Is it techni technically possible to send a signal to a television and then pops up a menu , project manager: industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: because we're working with different types of television , so we're going to work with that ? project manager: That is true . user interface: It's an in-built menu , industrial designer: and if it doesn't know how , it's user interface: isn't it ? Yes . user interface: So basically project manager: I'm not sure if it's impossible , user interface: we project manager: but there's a chance it's not , so . user interface: Or we could use a double-sided for less used functions project manager: A double-sided remote control ? user interface: you project manager: I don't think that's useful . I it's basically an idea to overcome these issues , project manager: Yeah , but then you're gonna have a lot of wasted buttons . user interface: because project manager: For example you have a Sony T_V_ and the half of the buttons won't function if you have a for a Sony that won't for a Philips T_V_ . project manager: I don't think we should user interface: Because if we use a universal remote control , we're going to have to have most buttons on it , project manager: Yeah , for exam user interface: so project manager: I'm not s marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , for ex you have to make it a little decision between the part if you want a universal remote control that it should do what people usually do with their T_V_s , not not the very complicated settings industrial designer: . project manager: that you can usually do that with either a old old remote control if they really hate that thing , industrial designer: . project manager: but you can't you cannot take into consideration all the different brands of T_V_s . project manager: I think there's I think there is a standard for example between industrial designer: . 'Cause everybody I have a universal remote control and it can use the menu button , so I think industrial designer: . project manager: I'm not sure , if you can put some research into that , if it's possible . For instance , if your old remote control is broken and you buy ours , then you should be able to get everything out of the television that's in it . project manager: we need to put some research into that if if we can open the menu , I think it's possible , just the way how to . project manager: Yeah , then then you could do everything I suppose , because usually the T_V_s have tha that inside in this other little piece of software , so it's okay . For instance Sony makes all their remote controls exactly the same for all their devices , project manager: industrial designer: and you always grab the wrong one because formatting of the buttons is exactly the same , only the labels are different . Yeah I think it should be a little distinct from everything else , industrial designer: We should not do that . project manager: So user interface: I'll put some on paper and present them next time the ideas that I have . project manager: because we have forty minutes , I'm not sure how much time we have left for the meeting anyway , so . project manager: So anyway , yeah , we could do some i do some work now on on the design for example . what do you want , do you want , but user interface: Yeah , but we like some some curves or project manager: Yeah , may maybe something like this . Let's see what I think this should these are always on top of the of the control , so they should be here . user interface: Yeah , and since you're holding it like this , I suggest you put the channel up channel down and volume project manager: Think it's like this . So you have the up channel the down channel the volume , do we want that horizontal or vertical ? project manager: Do you take triangles or marketing: it's it's fine , I think . project manager: I think it should be I think it user interface: This is basically what people are accustomed to , project manager: Maybe we should make 'em bigger or whatever . industrial designer: Perhaps we should also make something like a flash on it , if you if it's lost , for people that are deaf . project manager: Yeah , but for example if it's lost in your armchair , we'll not see the flash . Yeah , it's true , but it's it's only has to do so when you press the button that it's lost . user interface: We could make a combination that it goes beep and that you that some light lights up . marketing: Just a light on it or user interface: So we have the basic channels we've got here , the power button somewhere over here ? project manager: Oh yeah , it's true . project manager: You shouldn't be you shouldn't press it by accident , but it shouldn't be stacked away somewhere . marketing: And user interface: What would you like to ? project manager: Yeah , I thought maybe we should move the buttons down marketing: But you r project manager: and put it here for example marketing: And you are reading from the t project manager: to marketing: you always read from the top to the the bottom of it . Yeah , that's true , marketing: Yeah , project manager: you should marketing: so it's project manager: I think the bu the power button should be on top , industrial designer: . user interface: Is that used often ? marketing: So i it's user interface: The mute button ? Do people use that often ? marketing: sorry ? project manager: Mute . user interface: 'Cause I'm pretty much accustomed to it right over here , at least in general , marketing: . user interface: but project manager: I don't think it's important , but I think it I think it should be you c user interface: It's not that important , no . project manager: No , because it Yeah , people are accustomed to that , marketing: Around not not at top at the around the volume selection . marketing: I don't know where exactly , project manager: Take this out and here see marketing: but project manager: are we gonna take triangles anyway ? I'm drawing triangles , but marketing: user interface: That's pretty much what people are accustomed to , project manager: Yeah , user interface: aren't they ? project manager: it's maybe a bigger lesser than thing . So anyway , I think this is should be the channels and or sh user interface: Well , marketing: Wha user interface: I'm accustomed to the channels being on top . industrial designer: Shall we also look if it's possible to make a rechargeable remote ? That you don't have to buy new batteries if every project manager: Well , marketing: Yeah . project manager: for that is it's on one part it's it's a good thing to recharge it marketing: Maybe it's more ex expensive . project manager: Maybe we should what what could be possible is one with rechargeable batteries for example . project manager: You have just put Penlite batteries that are rechargeable , because it's an it's it's it's very annoying . user interface: But isn't that expensive in the entire package ? industrial designer: But that's already possible . project manager: I'm not sure y I'm not sure it's if it's expensive , but just take a look at it , because it might be a very good idea . Because if it's it's useful to have it rechargeable , user interface: project manager: but at the same time , if you don't want recha if you forgot to recharge it and you wanna watch T_V_ now , you wanna be able to put different batteries in it , use it now and not in half an hour . you could make a device , but I'm not sure how that is possible with the costs , that you can put in normal batteries , rechargeable , project manager: I think I have a nice idea . industrial designer: You can put in normal Penlites , rechargeable Penlites , but they can also be recharged with the remote , with a wire . project manager: I think it's it's a pretty good idea to have like sort of a maybe a base station that you put on the T_V_ . industrial designer: So but marketing: Yeah , that's g industrial designer: But I think that will cost a lot . project manager: A what ? industrial designer: Like a like a P_D_A_ , a hand-held . You can just put it in the electricity and it charges itself , project manager: Well , we were talking about the fact that we wanted to insert either a beep or a flash into the thing with a little separate signal industrial designer: you don't need basic station . marketing: But Which project manager: It's a very small Yeah , I'm drawing it big now , but So you can put your remote on flat for example . user interface: 'Cause that means that we have to implement rechargeable batteries , a docking station industrial designer: project manager: I'm not sure if it costs a lot , that that's what he r industrial designer: . I'm not sure if there's information available on this , project manager: It's just an idea , we have to find out if it's possible . industrial designer: but marketing: But user interface: And do people actually want that ? To pay extra they want to pay for rechargeable ? marketing: Yeah , they want to pay for it . project manager: I'm not sure , you should find out if it's if rechargeable is important . marketing: But project manager: They want to pay for comfort , industrial designer: Well , this is comfort . project manager: we just assu we we could either make a separate station which just sends a signal to the remote control to either beep or flash to find it , marketing: But f . project manager: and Yeah , we have to either that or make it integrated with a with a docking station . marketing: project manager: So marketing: project manager: let's go through the industrial designer: I like the covers . So user interface: marketing: project manager: what we have is you have I think you have to do a lot of work on if it's possible for the cost . industrial designer: I hope if I have information about that , project manager: Maybe yeah , industrial designer: I'm gonna project manager: or maybe you can find out i what people are willing to pay . project manager: We are going for twenty five Euros sales price , industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , okay . project manager: but just try to find out what they're willing to pay for it , because if they're willing to pay more , we could lose a little profit and maybe attract more customers , marketing: Yeah yeah yeah . What it costs and what kind of materials that we can choose what we want in it project manager: Yeah , if you have some financial information that that'd be nice , industrial designer: and exactly , I need it . user interface: Could you post some other essentials of what people want , so that I can work with some buttons , where to put it project manager: marketing: Yeah . user interface: You seem to have information on that , I'd like to see some of it . industrial designer: Was it not possible to send emails around the office ? project manager: No , it wasn't wasn't allo user interface: No , it's not . So that's why I'm not sure that you're allowed to share documents on the on the draft . marketing: but I have the user interface: Well , I have your PowerPoint presentation , I can get some inf information out of that . marketing: Yeah , but I Here I have the the s the homepage of our internet , user interface: Let's see . project manager: Yeah , the oh , they inc marketing: and here is my project manager: they include the new one . user interface: Oh , where would we marketing: here is my marketing report , project manager: Oh marketing: maybe you ca you can look at that project manager: no , I didn't have that . marketing: and user interface: Where would we want the teletext button ? marketing: Ah yeah . project manager: All it tells just let's make make a new marketing: And one user interface: Do we put it somewhere over here ? project manager: tick the new one . Yeah , let's increase it a little because marketing: And wha what people want , I've user interface: Or maybe this is something for the next meeting , I can draw out some ideas . project manager: Yeah , draw us up some some designs of of possible marketing: I have another thing project manager: just keep in mind that the important buttons should be on top and either big , user interface: Yeah . project manager: so the more less important user interface: Well , we have decided more or less the basic structure . user interface: I can put the other buttons in project manager: Just play a little with this , put l shift a little up or down and we'll see what looks best . industrial designer: What what did you wanna say ? project manager: Or just po post your designs from time to time on the product share . marketing: what I al already said is the the the remote controls are always lost , user interface: Maybe another idea . marketing: but it it's also for people , they want to learn it fast , industrial designer: . marketing: not they want to project manager: Yeah , so we don't want we want very little buttons , just the buttons you use a lot . marketing: It's yeah , it's easy to learn user interface: Yes , but it should cover all the functions , marketing: wi and project manager: Well user interface: so possibly , just an idea that popped in project manager: what we had function that what people do , marketing: project manager: so . People change channels , people they change the volume and they they change channel , they turn T_V_ off and on , for example . That's the basic fu that's what you do I'm not sure who present that again , but those are the basic function that people use it for , so those should be very well represented . user interface: Yeah , but we could go a step further , marketing: And The If user interface: because some T_V_s have the possibility to adjust brightness , that kind of menus . user interface: Yes , but it Because we're making industrial designer: But that's the question , is it ? marketing: industrial designer: Because it needs to be configured in the television under the menu . project manager: Yeah , but industrial designer: If it isn't , then we cannot reach it . industrial designer: isn't there a possibility to do research on that , so we know that for sure ? If you rule out functions , then and that gets known , then people are not gonna buy it . marketing: user interface: No , I thi industrial designer: Then the consumer bond or something says you cannot do this and that with it . That's a bad bad com commercial marketing: If project manager: we'll we'll see what we can come up with . marketing: Another thing I want to say is that we are looking at the market for the age younger than forty . marketing: on my report , I didn't ish I didn't show it in my presentation , project manager: Yeah , project manager: shall we ? industrial designer: Do they realise how much that costs ? marketing: and industrial designer: That's almost undoable . user interface: Oh , we're not going to be able to sell it for twenty-five then , with an L_C_D_ screen . marketing: but project manager: That's all here , here it says industrial designer: No , that's that's . marketing: So user interface: marketing: we can project manager: Speech recognition is quite marketing: We can look at the possibilities for an L_C_D_ and project manager: Yeah , just look at the possibilities then , marketing: I dunno . project manager: it's supposed to be a luxurious remote , marketing: How much it will cost industrial designer: . Or find a compromise , maybe just a black and white or for some extra information on it , on your programmes . industrial designer: I user interface: Well marketing: user interface: I doubt it , but industrial designer: But I really need finance information . Even if you put it even if you put a different cover on it , it looks still looks boring , marketing: Different colours maybe . marketing: But all industrial designer: This is Philips , huh ? project manager: I have no clue . Oh , I realise if we make it small , then it needs to be a little thicker , project manager: I think it's a very industrial designer: because I need to put all the electronics in it . project manager: Sorry ? industrial designer: If we make it s smaller , less wide , then we need to m make it a little thicker , project manager: Yeah ? industrial designer: because I have to put all the electronics in it . project manager: Huh even if user interface: So project manager: in the worst case we can even user interface: what kind of project manager: Could you give me the pen back ? user interface: Yeah , sure . project manager: So let's say that people would want an L_C_D_ thing . We could let's say we have an L_C_D_ screen , people want an L_C_D_ screen . marketing: project manager: It doesn't have to be really big , but just just have to be has to be there . project manager: Think it's a good place , people don't marketing: If you're reading from top to bottom , I think it's better to put it at the top . project manager: No ? It's not that it's not the most important function , industrial designer: Me too . marketing: It's j project manager: it's just an extra thing , industrial designer: Ah project manager: it just you press the buttons on top , marketing: . But i if you if you are going to put the L_C_D_ on it , I think it's very important to use it , industrial designer: but . marketing: because it's use it project manager: How can you use an L_C_D_ screen ? marketing: But nee the function of it . project manager: if you t if you press a button , you can see it , industrial designer: . project manager: ri I'm not sure wha I'm trying to imagine myself what it would look like . marketing: so project manager: this looks a little user interface: I'm still not convinced of the marketing: you must use the maximum of it . project manager: if it's possible wi if it's not too expensive , we should include it , industrial designer: They want it . But industrial designer: Also keep in mind again , the L_C_D_ screen is very flat , but it needs transistors , resistors , I don't know what more and that needs space . user interface: So basically industrial designer: But if we user interface: can I project manager: we have green now user interface: what we have to decide now is what goes on top . Do we put the volume control and the channel control here , or do we put it on he Would we like to press it in the middle ? project manager: Or maybe we should m we could draw draw something a bit that has it on on on the bottom . user interface: Yes , but we do agree that we keep this at the centre , project manager: because it marketing: Yeah . project manager: We're not sure about the size anyway , user interface: So maybe you'd put them here . For example if you take user interface: Yes , but a big remote control probably not something which people would like . For example just industrial designer: If we have a a space issue , we can also lose one battery . project manager: I don't think if we if we even use an L_C_D_ screen , we need to , definitely . Yeah , but if we need two batteries and an L_C_D_ screen , that means a lot of space that we need . project manager: The L_C_D_ doesn't have to nee doesn't need to be very big . So either user interface: So would we like this or would we like the project manager: We either we have to decide what what people want . project manager: so if your basic function's here , we should like we decided before , programmes up and down , and volume here . marketing: Or And what about speech recognition project manager: Well you can just no , I'm not sure if we can do that , marketing: Yeah , yeah , project manager: but we could put a microphone in here for example . project manager: Just to do research into both , w what it costs and what it takes for space . industrial designer: One more thing I'd like to say , let's give this a name , and not like some vague serial number that no one understands , like with cars . marketing: Yeah , okay , yeah , industrial designer: Shall we all try to think about a name ? user interface: So I think of a name . project manager: Okay , at anyways , the the minutes will be on the on the web shortly , user interface: So project manager: so there we go . project manager: industrial designer: Yeah , I've Do we save the ? project manager: marketing:

The marketing team believed that the market would prefer a remote with convenient channel browsing and volume adjustment features, rather than complex programming or excessive buttons. The user interface team agreed and proposed a menu display to enhance user-friendliness. The design of the buttons was discussed, with a focus on volume, channel, power, and other essential functions. The team considered the size, placement, and arrangement of the buttons, ultimately deciding to place the power button on top. The idea of a mute button was also suggested, although the project manager did not see it as important. The team liked the idea of using fluorescent lights, but the user interface designer suggested making it tactile by using little arrows. They debated whether to use a battery or a naturally fluorescent material to power this function. Marketing suggested targeting elderly users who often struggle with remote controls and emphasized the need for clear button allocation. To address this, they proposed grouping the buttons based on their functions, a suggestion that the project manager agreed with.

What were the key decisions made regarding the style, design, and functionality of the remote control, including the incorporation of a menu display, button size and scale design, button grouping, and the use of a fluorescent button?

project manager: No on the desktop you'll find you should find that there's a project documents link . We introduced ourselves , discussed the possibility of a macro facility , interac interacting the T_V_ a bit more , mentioning of bar-code , joystick for user manipulation , and ergonomics of the remote control as well . also key is the corporate image should stay recognisable , f your colour and slogan of course is down at the bottom there . Just to say quickly I would have thought that only being used for a television the macro facility may now not be required . I'd like to if possible hear from our Marketing Expert first , to help us gain an idea of where we're going to go . marketing: Okay , so we did some research , we asked one hundred people their opinions on remote controls . We asked some open ended questions , just , what are your opinions on the remote control , got a lot of re responses , and we asked some very specific questions , and we got a lot of good feedback . Please bear in mind this is only a hundred people , so even when the groups are divided into fifteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , there's only maybe ten people fifteen people in each group . I often lose my remote control , the back of the couch , some place , and even if it's not lost permanently , it takes me a few minutes to find it . I remember trying to load a D_V_D_ player recently , and there were so many buttons , it took me I don't know maybe ten minutes to to go through each button , 'cause you have to press the shift button to access the yellow buttons , you know there's just a lot of stuff that no one really uses . I've seen some remote controls that are big , they have a lot of buttons , you have to hold down more than one key at one time to do something , they're just not great to use . Between the age of fifteen and twenty five , most people would be willing to pay extra for voice recognition software . Most people'd be willing to pay for that most people want remote controls to be pretty , they want it to be fancy , th they they want it to be different , everybody has a white remote control with black buttons , and a red button and a green button , not everybody wants that . It's a bit sketchy at some times , you're not gonna get good always accurate results , but for a very fixed number of words , you know you have , how many different words can you have for a remote control , up , down , left , right , channel five , channel seven , you know , how many , you can't have that many words . But after a while people may wanna return it , because if you have to to say som most people use a remote control for switching to channels , and they say they do that about ninety eight percent of the time . Using the remote control , ninety eight percent of the time for changing channels , and that's for flickering through channels . So if you have to say up , up , up , up , if you have to do that all the time , then people might get a bit fed up with that and they may return it . However , oh , because the voice recognition software exists already , there's no need to spend money on research and development , but this does mean the need for microphones in the in the remote control , which is an unusual feature in my opinion . But if we do have the voice recognition thing , there's a lot of stuff that you can get rid of . Either you have voice recognition by itself , which I think is a bit impractical for like night time if you wanna be watching television and you wanna be quiet , or I don't know you have a visitor coming round and the remote's only trained for you , it's a bit impractical to have just voice recognition by itself . But imagine you got rid of the regular remote part , then you can design the remote to look any way you want it to look , because there are no restrictions on physical size , or shape , it it could be as fancy as you want it to be , you know , it could be like a lollipop or something like that , something weird like that . marketing: So we have the three birds , we have the design , that we have the the fancy bit , right , the voice recognition's fancy , it's cool , it's different , it's radical , so , and then we have an extra bit I don't remember so I'm pretty sure people will buy the remote , but is it practical to have a voice recognition system in a remote control , I think is a big question . , will people will people be willing to wait for the the period that it'll take to train the remote , 'cause I think it will the remote will get better over time with the same user user , but for the first week or for the first two weeks are you willing to wait , are you willing to have a bad remote control . And what if you have visitors come round , they stay the night , they wanna use the T_V_ , they can't use the remote because they speak differently to you . , will people return the remote control , I think a lot of young people will buy the remote control , if they have the money , you know , so , project manager: If you could marketing: do our audience have the money , but would they return it after a while because it's not as fast as pressing a button , it's not a practical . project manager: sor marketing: I think it's cool , project manager: if you could speed it up a bit , yeah . project manager: you've got your presentation now , industrial designer: How did where did user interface: Yeah , it's in the it's in the folder project manager: is it on the industrial designer: where did you get all your in information ? user interface: yeah . user interface: Okay , this is a brief run through of the of the technical functions of the remote . As is the the the presentation is already slightly obsolete because I had in mind something that would be i be aimed at controlling multiple devices but there's still stuff of relevance , so project manager: Okay . I've looked at looked at a num couple of other remote control models just for an idea of basic design principles . and wasn't really satisfied by what I saw I have to say so this is more sort of springboard for how these could be improved on . basically the job of the device is to send commands to an appliance , in this case the television set . On the one hand and this this particularly relates to its sort of earliest models where with you know i so so many buttons on it so about the size of the television set . And most of these functions are not going to be used , it creates a rather user unfriendly interface . And on the other hand there's a user focused approach that pares things down to just what what is most likely to get used . With a and a and of course there is a certain amount of sort of loss of function here obviously , but mostly that's relatively peripheral functions . And so you go for something that's fairly intuitive to use , and well f the for the most part for T_V_ remote it's tha that would be channel control and volume . and if you if you if you are wanting to incorporate control of a D_V_ D_V_D_ or V_C_R_ presumably into that then there's a play , pause , stop , rewind , fast-forward , record , so forth . but the pro I think the problem with a lot of the sort of user focused designs that are about is that they sort of make assumptions in advance about what what a given user's going to want mo want to do from want it to do most . So , something that's something that is more programmable , that perh perhaps has the full range of functions available to it but you can then specify yourself what you're most likely to want . so that those are then immediately accessible through fairly minimal number of controls , I liked Ebenezer's idea of including a joystick in that and possibly a sort of fairly minimal number of sort of function buttons , and have a disp you then have some sort of basic display on it so that if you're sort of cha changing from different modes for the device it'll tell you just exactly what you know each direction of the of the joystick's going to do or wha or what each function button's going to do . , this is actually a again slightly taking inspiration off of games controllers , you know the Playstation control where you have four basic function buttons marketing: . user interface: that are just marked with distinctive geometrical shapes but the and then dependent on what you're doing with it what game and so on those those functions are then sort of further specified . Click to save in where do I have to save it ? project manager: If you look on the desktop you'll find that there's a link to the project folder , or project documents . project manager: Are you finding it okay or ? industrial designer: I'm just closing it now . marketing: Well like if you go to one , whichever one you were working industrial designer: that's it there , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . industrial designer: right I'm responsible for working design , this is basically the inside going on of the the remote control . So we have the energy source , we have the user interface , this this is what I've seen . the sender will push the button , the chip will respond , and then the dig digital signal is sent to the T_V_ . So , if you go to next slide , you'll see you'll see what do we need on the user interface . Do we need many buttons , or do we need l many light bulbs that could be easier to to realise which appliances are on or not . , or would that take too much power , would we need more components in there to supply the power ? , the joystick is another thing , if we were gonna add that , there'd be more components to deal with that . industrial designer: so we need to I dunno exactly what That's the design of the the the layout of the electronic design , obviously there'll be more details once we've decided what we're putting on the user interface . marketing: industrial designer: I just used the it was a mess , I was just putting adding it together at the end there . industrial designer: so you have the energy source obviously connected to the chip , and the user interface obviously contains everything . You have the switch turn it on , infrared bulb , will contact the T_V_ and will have whatever device or D_V_D_ player , the bulb will turn on to say it's on . , so do we need on the control different buttons to decide , or different light bulbs , would it be easier ? , I dunno what we should decide on that . So , we've had some stuff put forward , along with the new user requirements , we've had a lot of kind of input I'd say so far . The power required , and the ability to the cost , it seems like for an embedded system , this could cause us issues . project manager: for example you see that there's fairly robust services on computers via via voice , I_B_M_ do drag and dictate , but these require a lot of memory marketing: voice activation could be an interesting idea but I think that our Ind Industrial Designer would probably upon some research say that it's maybe not feasible . project manager: however the idea of a joystick and then maybe an L_C_D_ which has been kind of put forward so far , it's almost like having a small T_ not T_V_ to say , but if you can control almost all of the functionality from the display , I don't know how much power an L_C_D_ would take , but it might be quite low ? marketing: . I industrial designer: L_C_D_ on the remote just telling you what's on , or , interactive L_C_D_ or project manager: Well literally if you can imagine the display maybe slightly larger than those on a a mobile phone , user interface: . project manager: something where you can read an an fair amount of information , traverse maybe quite a few menus , if we maybe used mobile phones as a good example , they usually incorporate they have the keypad , and then evr all the other functionality is usually associated inside by traversing around . and then we could have like say the common buttons as you say , volume control , changing channels user interface: . I I was thinking that the remote the sort of default functions for the joystick would be up and down for volume , left and right for channels . project manager: We industrial designer: Do you think that people will get mixed up , like , they'll be looking at this screen and that screen and then , you know , trying to get everything working , would it be a bit confusing ? user interface: I think probably for the first couple of hours of using it industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: though I w I would say that we could probably probably be required to mo most of the mobile phone displays you see these days are colour but we should probably try to stick to black and white . colour could be a sort of subsequent development but you know cost a bit of extra money f w w w w w once everyone's got the first , you know , oh colour's out , we'll have to replace it won't we . project manager: That would be my feeling as well , I think we could possibly create quite a useful user interface . now I don't marketing: Sure but the idea of a remote with a menu or and a joystick I think like I h if I was in the habit of buying remote controls then I would want one , project manager: sorry , go for it . marketing: but I think we don't have a specific audience , you know , like what is our target audience , what niche are niche are we trying to market and corner . You know , you know what I'm saying , like , for whom is this intended ? Everybody ? project manager: I think it could probably be aimed at most people who've used a mobile . project manager: if we are if we were to follow that avenue , we might be s you know we're kind of almost relying on their experience with a mobile phone I suppose . project manager: I imagine as well that the actual L_C_D_ and maybe to a certain extent the joystick as well would be for the additional functionality . Which maybe doesn't get used as often , maybe it makes it easy for them to figure out how to change the channels as in the frequencies and such for reprogramming it . project manager: and you can still have the main buttons that allow the people to turn the machine on and off , d up and down , it depends , maybe we have the fol the joystick as a separate one for the other functions then , that there's just a a small number of as you were saying buttons that have already been defined . And they can completely ignore most of the functionality which would be for say the o actual owner of the the T_V_ marketing: user interface: is that you you you then basically you can then basically put it for for T_ T_ for T_V_ remote alone , you could put there are like I say the the the main things people do with a T_V_ remote control is the volume and the channel . user interface: But but the but then o obviously if you know if you i if you wanted to access further functions i you you then get to sort of menu navigation . with things like ch with things like tuning and channels you know adjusting brightn brightness and fiddly things that no one really bothers with , most T_V_s these days actually have menus anyway so this would be a fairly rational way of integra project manager: if we are most of the of the replacement remote market is sort of remote control rationalisation . user interface: you want one wo y you want one that'll do the job of all of them . , if all you're replacing is one of the you know however many remotes you have in your living room , you know you still need separate remotes for everything else . user interface: I just think that possibly project manager: Well this is a requirement that we have to stick to I'm afraid , user interface: . project manager: So this is this is one of the solid ones that has to be obeyed , for now . project manager: So I can understand your point , and I would agree with you , but this is our design spec for now . user interface: Does that would that include access to say interactive functions on digital or cable ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: I would say so , yes , because then we have to be able to control the remote boxes , and that is a separate unit . I think that it I would say that the design spec we've been with is for the television only for now . Maybe we'll hear differently , but for now marketing: So the joystick is just for differentness . Try and sell it t sell it to them to supply with project manager: There is that possibility , yes . B However I don't know exactly where we'll be going with that , but it might not even be the avenue of the Marketing Expert , marketing: . It's just , the way I figure it , twelve point five Euros per unit , we have to sell at least like three million or something like that , project manager: marketing: not to account for all the the money we waste on remotes that no one buys , you know , like if we made a perf if we made a ks for every remote we made someone bought it , then we have to sell a lot of remote controls . marketing: We just Is this gonna be enough to to sell ? project manager: Well , something else that you brought up was the ability to lose a remote , which as you said you've done , in fact we've probably all done . project manager: I don't know if it's a gimmick or not , but have any of you ever seen those odd little key rings where if you whistle , it will beep and you tell you where it is . marketing: I had one of those , and my brother , and my dad , could have beat me up project manager: . project manager: well I was going to say clapping , digital telephones , for example , one unit has of course you have to have that base unit , somewhere where there's a button , but maybe it's a button that you attach to the T_V_ . project manager: Something which you when you press that , it would beep to give its location away , on the remote unit . project manager: And that way , because we're attaching what would be a small button to the T_V_ , again say what , it would be a small transmitter , watch battery type scenario I would say , or something that if it was problems enough you could actually even just I don't power that might be something that we could look into . Yeah , it's putting a lot on your shoulders there , so that could be something that separates us a bit from the market as well . Before we leave this meeting , it would be best to say this is what we're going this is the design we're gonna try and get , this is how we're gonna make ourselves look unique . project manager: Do we go for maybe a remote contro sorry , we're gonna go for a remote control obviously , do we go for a small joystick that would operate say changing channels , up and down , and then , what , another button that would say that it's now being used to manoeuvre round the L_C_D_ . project manager: We could use say the left and right for changing channels and the up and down for volume , user interface: For volume . project manager: and marketing: But we have a frequency of how what people use a remote control for most . marketing: power is used like once per hour , industrial designer: I marketing: channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight per hour , project manager: marketing: that's by far the biggest one , and then teletext , is still here , that's like fourteen , project manager: Vol Volume selection okay , yep , marketing: and volume selection . project manager: the teletext we're gambling with , and we're gonna say it's dead , the way of the dodo marketing: No , yeah , okay okay . Yeah , project manager: So we well , sorry , we could maybe even go as far as saying power button , small joystick , L_C_D_ , and then what maybe is it one more button to say that you're using the menu system , and with the possibility of pushing down on the joystick to say okay ? So we're having very very few buttons involved , user interface: Actually how project manager: but navigation around a menu for most things . user interface: Actually I would say maybe two two function buttons , the y we're now using the menus button and and an og and an okay button . certainly something I've found with the joystick on mo the joysticks on mobile phones is that a lot of the time th the device mistakes you trying to move it in one direction or the other for pushing down for okay . user interface: The o the o the other dis design constraint I think we should bear in mind is that people are you know very much used to using a remote control one handedly , so we need to make sure that e even with the joystick , you know something that can just sit comfortably in the palm of the hand and have the joystick just controlled by the thumb . Do we incorporate the idea of trying to f locate the remote control again via a beeping noise ? industrial designer: Yeah , think so . project manager: Do you mind looking ? marketing: I think because it's so small it might be an if we only have like two three buttons it might be essential to have to have that project manager: The ability to locate it again . project manager: So that would require a transmitter maybe attached to the T_V_ , just so that it says find me , and what , a basically a small microphone on the actual unit , can maybe hide it in the base . So so industrial designer: no ? project manager: Sorry ? user interface: a small speaker you mean . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Nah , you'd see it anyway , if you hear it . project manager: E us we might be better with the sound possibly we could maybe incorporate marketing: W those little key-rings have both , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: th e the true fact , considering the cost of an L_E_D_ , we could just incorporate it anyway . project manager: by the sounds of it , with what we're suggesting so far , your design the user interface is still quite open , you could go for quite an interesting design . project manager: Because we're only going to have a very few key and you've got you know a small L_C_D_ , joystick , e I think it leaves you open to a a potential wide range of shapes , something that can make it stand out slightly . project manager: if you could look into what we've suggested so far , the feasibility of small transmitter , and such , maybe if an L_C_D_ screen requires too much power , or such . Ebenezer , Marketing Expert marketing: Well I can give you the frequency , what people what options people use most often , I guess that's gonna be important in the ts defining the the software side of the interface , right . project manager: yeah if you could maybe as well see what people think about the idea of this minimalist approach that we've taken , where of a joystick to control the very basic functions , and then the idea of manipulating it like you would a mobile . project manager: I don't know how easy that will be within the time frame , marketing: Okay . project manager: Feel free to email me if you think that we've screwed something up and wanna get it rectified as soon as possible . industrial designer: So I should just look at the speaker , the speaker and an L_E_D_ . user interface: project manager: Speaker and L_E_D_ for locating , industrial designer: And marketing: Transmitter . , if we do end up trying to market this to television manufacturers then the then the transmitter could actually be built into the television . , and something that we can can easily be adopted at the last minute as well I'd say . project manager: The electronics could be s either placed externally or internally , makes no difference to the final product of the actual remote control , user interface: user interface: if it w if we get a major television manufacturer to say y oh yeah we'll have that , save us the bother , then that's you know vast amounts of sales . industrial designer: P project manager: Oh , one thing that we've almost not talked about at all , my apologies for that , user interface , we also need to maybe get the slogan in here , it's , industrial designer: Fashion . industrial designer: yeah , the slogan's we put the fashion in electronics , isn't it ? project manager: My apologies . , I think that's l almost the last minute thing industrial designer: 'S also look cool . project manager: So I'm not too concerned a that we haven't gone into depth about that . But it might be something you could consider when you're thinking about shapes ? user interface: project manager: In fact we might like to put a slogan on , and possibly the two R_s to signify the company <doc-sep>I think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say the requirements that we've set out . Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on a small joystick , L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . So we'll just crack on , like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible . industrial designer: I'll just project manager: This meeting is the conceptual design phase and is Sorry about this . And is to cover things like what the parts might be made of , can we outsource these from elsewhere , will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: I have a presentation I just saved it in the the folder . joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it , could be plastic w or rubber even as well . can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else a solar powered one . project manager: the kinetic one , we've 'cause that's the ones where like you the movement causes it . project manager: the bat the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power , would be my one query . project manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you'd say ? industrial designer: . one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . the materials are tha there as you can see , but you can't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: Titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: which would be Yeah , marketing: Is it not also it's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . , I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: . project manager: could you maybe draw something ? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect , it's just 'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two . Well for a curved , well I was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . industrial designer: which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but you can't have it in titanium , which is a nice material . industrial designer: and for the buttons , it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s . but it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive . if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve control and it's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . But you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: Yeah . So , depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display . project manager: do you have any idea so far , like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_ , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? Or ? marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip . Yeah ? industrial designer: Yeah i project manager: Okay , should I go on , or go back ? industrial designer: marketing: if we only have twelve Pounds fifty , twelve Euros , not even twelve Pounds . Twelve Euros , what's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine Pounds ? project manager: Well we'd also be relying on the the bulk buying in producement and such . If you go to the one before that so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_ . the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then it'll send it to the tr the amplifier . industrial designer: And then the next slide just shows how the copper wires interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , to get sent to the chip . So in the information that you've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks ? industrial designer: I think we can do it if we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . project manager: I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm I don't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber for reasons I'll go into in more detail . Now I'm gonna have to work between the the slides and the and the white board project manager: Yeah . I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving various ideas from from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today . so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes , ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . and try and f and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on , so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . and what we've basically decided on was the the the joy the joystick , two function buttons and the L_C_D_ , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . I don't actually think we need the the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels , so if there's something f and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: Ah , okay . user interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then your V_C_ and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player . You must have two two modes , basic mode , where the joystick's left right left right for channels , up down for volume , and the and the menu mode for further functions . now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design , it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . project manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: basi basically what I basically what the what be having , I would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you're handing it from a lef left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the the L_C_ the L_C_D_ and the The joystick would be in the right place . And also this is a rather nicer de design gimmick that the the you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: Okay . project manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say , I guess . The Assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , hol holding the remote , the the joystick unit should rest over the the joint of the f of the four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb . and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for left or right handed users . You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . You just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . , and that marketing: Is this the joystick ? user interface: Th this part here is the joystick . And you then have , at the at the bottom , the L_C_D_ , and this would need to be articulated as well . And again , this part could be rotated , so it can So so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . So the t the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . And you could download programs for it from for T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers . though you i it would be necessary to have have a m have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet . We compared whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . And then we we research fashion trends in Europe , what's what's the new black , project manager: Okay . we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that's a bonus , but they don't care so much , you know . People want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . And easy to use , it it just so happens that from the second point to the third point is twice as important the second point is twice as important as the third point . People want it I is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . The fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . project manager: marketing: But I I see I come on to that in the next in the next slide . If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it's spongy , then can I skip the rest ? industrial designer: Oh yeah , I forgot to mention that . marketing: So so my personal opinion ? we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool , that's that's different , you know , that's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it's the up to the interface guy . So if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . It could be something like , I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do . I think maybe they were I don't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: So if we want something strong and sturdy , I say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it doesn't matter , it's spongy material , it's not gonna break , you know . I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable . So how do things fit it ? And if we are gonna use spongy , we can say it's long lasting , you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . So just to summarise , people want stuff that's cool , that's that looks like it's cool , and if it is cool then that's a bonus doesn't have to be people like fruit and veg . If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . So , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . project manager: Well , I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway . You always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway . project manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so I don't exactly what cost would be incurred . I can see your point about the number keypad , but I've I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: project manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of boxes as well having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: Yeah , actually if you've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it's you know if you're trying to remember what , you know , what number's the discovery channel or whatever . user interface: But if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components , say something like lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most small hand held devices now . Though I'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: Yeah , I I would say definitely , the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . So project manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? I can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in the structure , do you think ? user interface: . industrial designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . marketing: user interface: if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . If you then have a sort of outer skin of flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and I think would look rather co mi rather cool . my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but . industrial designer: project manager: However , one interesting point is , I don't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: It's an certainly a different colour from your average user interface: Make it harder to lose , as well . project manager: Was there anything in your research marketing: The noise for when you lose the banana , f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: I th if it I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , I I don't know . user interface: Well basi basically the for f for e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that the T_V_ responds to . user interface: So usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the remote , and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your ma find your manufacturer marketing: marketing: That's because televisions , they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . But if we had some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_ user interface: Yeah . project manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: booklet . This person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: Yeah . project manager: Doesn't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that's right , yeah . marketing: and it's user interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to to actually purchasing it , so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about . user interface: If you if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . project manager: Okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage . I think we've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of rubber and such , so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . So for example , I'll just start at the top , you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it'll be hard not to , obviously . The user interface design , They're kind of it looks they're the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: . project manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , I would say . but then again , the the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . So and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . marketing: Yeah , you see I don't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . project manager: I I think we'd be yeah , no , it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . project manager: so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar . project manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? marketing: Okay , sure . At this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . project manager: the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that's stylish , so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: And it's stylish . project manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then , they've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . project manager: Although of course at twenty five Euros , I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the device . U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . project manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming industrial designer: Oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_ , or are we gonna project manager: It's just for T_V_ , but for marketing: Different . project manager: programming it to use your T_V_ , you might hook it up to the P_C_ . project manager: I'm not sure , but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive . user interface: Yeah , marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something . marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . The other thing it it would need to ha it would need to have some sort of on board memory anyway . user interface: f for one for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be although you know , it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be o ought to be customisable and marketing: Different languages , different skins and stuff like that . How how how you want say the the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels . I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? So . marketing: It would make sense if you could project manager: and we'd better be careful about the time as well . project manager: So user interface: Where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: they're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: Yeah . user interface: I having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wanna keep the company brand as well , user interface: project manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on . Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . I was like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the on the top function button <doc-sep>user interface: ? marketing: industrial designer: I'm afraid I'm a bit too slow . project manager: we're supposed to develop a new remote control , that's both original , trendy and user-friendly . project manager: then we do some in individual work , then we have a meeting to discuss the results , etcetera etcetera . project manager: Okay and in the format menu you can select colour and line width , etcetera etcetera . industrial designer: Different pen widths , how do you do that ? user interface: project manager: with the format menu . project manager: And what's that supposed to be ? industrial designer: Are you serious ? marketing: Should it be one project manager: Oh yeah . marketing: so y you must save it at the end project manager: Yeah marketing: and then project manager: you can press the next button , which is yeah . user interface: industrial designer: How much time do we have to draw anyway ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: What is it ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: It's a it's a giraffe . Yeah I see a long neck user interface: Yeah , that's a project manager: but marketing: It's more like a dinosaur . user interface: industrial designer: Is this part of our a acquai or introduction to each other ? project manager: Yeah sorry , introduction and get acquainted marketing: project manager: and industrial designer: Alright . user interface: project manager: Yeah it's a bit slow , marketing: It's not that fast . user interface: 'Cause it's so project manager: You were slow too user interface: 'cause it's green . marketing: So some other line width industrial designer: Do you have a turtle pet ? project manager: user interface: marketing: No . marketing: Yeah ? project manager: Yeah not exactly legs but More like fins marketing: industrial designer: Stumpy stuff . user interface: marketing: or project manager: There's a a gum , marketing: Yeah ? Alright . industrial designer: And why did you choose this animal ? marketing: So project manager: He said it was slow . marketing: A cat who had an accident or project manager: Why a cat ? industrial designer: yeah I dunno . Yeah I'm not so good at drawing with this kind of project manager: The pen , industrial designer: st Oh shit . It's my favourite pet animal , 'cause they're cute , they're independent and cuddly , I dunno . industrial designer: Or do I need to use more colours and project manager: I think it's okay . Okay industrial designer: So we have to s project manager: now it's time for some discussion . project manager: did any of you already do some work on this part or industrial designer: Well I started making an overview for myself , what I had to do , 'cause we have three design steps and in every step I have a s specific task to perform or whatever . industrial designer: So I had to , I dunno , make an overview for myself about what I have to do , project manager: industrial designer: and kind of let it work in to get ideas about well how I have to fill it . And do you have any ideas about the product so far ? industrial designer: Well I started I started with the first phase , I think was the functional . industrial designer: And let's see I had to focus on the working design , which you said . industrial designer: and we ye use button presses to activate or deactivate certain functions on the T_V_ . Yeah I kept it global 'cause that it activates or deactivates specific functions , user interface: Okay , yeah . project manager: and what did the Marketing Expert do ? marketing: well from a marketing perspective , well the function des design phase consists out of the user requirements . marketing: what needs and desires are to be fulfilled ? So there are a few means to reach that by by doing research to see what existing products are there out in the market . marketing: especially what are their shortcomings ? Are there any new functions which can be added to our product ? project manager: For example for well what kind of applications do current remote controls support , and what are f featur features of current and future televisions ? project manager: Yep . What w what would they like to see on a new remote control ? especially for future users , project manager: Okay . marketing: I'm thinking of early adopters , because they they use new technology first , project manager: marketing: and they play with a lot of tools and stuff so maybe they have some good ideas to to add . project manager: but have you any idea so far as what the user requirements are ? marketing: No n not specifically . user interface: I got some requirements marketing: and project manager: Yeah ? user interface: it has it has to be user-friendly . user interface: really easy to use buttons , not not very small buttons , but not the the also the big big buttons , but just normal buttons . project manager: what do you mean by that ? user interface: the distance from your television to your remote control has to be , yeah yeah , quite a big distance . project manager: user interface: Are you going to put the the notes on the project manager: Yeah , in the project folder . industrial designer: Well no I'm just a bit wondering what we're gonna do the next session ? user interface: Yeah . Because then we have a user interface: After that we are going to the conceptual project manager: Yeah . project manager: Y you do some individual work , marketing: We're just working the three phases . And then I have to prepare I have to defend our design , user interface: project manager: so make it good . marketing: Better make it industrial designer: I am gonna work on the conceptual design already 'cause yeah it's fairly important to know what kind of components we want to put in . industrial designer: Do we , is it gonna be a multimedia control centre ? Do we want to be able to use the video recorder with it ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: I would first m industrial designer: So if I don't know what components to put in , it's kind of hard . marketing: Yeah project manager: You can always add a few marketing: well like l li like some like some some remotes who are out there , which I know , there's one button which is very easy to switch between devices . marketing: So you can switch to your video project manager: marketing: and then the same buttons control your video . marketing: And another function I'll think of switch to your media centre , because that's getting very popular . industrial designer: Yeah so marketing: And then use your Windows media centre under your T_V_ with the same remote control . industrial designer: Yeah I I know what you mean , but you'll ne need several other buttons for a video player . industrial designer: And and for a t teletext you need additional buttons as well , marketing: No . project manager: We could just start with the assumption that's only for T_V_ and video <doc-sep>project manager: I figured with the spam thing , if you can't beat it , join in . user interface: marketing: user interface: That's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive . project manager: Are you ready ? Okay , right , well , I take it that you are all ready now . which was we got together just to basically decide on well to talk about what it is that we were actually supposed to be doing , marketing: project manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , get bit more of an idea together of what's going on . what we are gonna talk about in this meeting is now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it's a T_V_ remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some R_ and D_ for that , that's research and development for those that haven't heard that before , user interface: marketing: yeah , we're gonna hear your th three little presentations , marketing: project manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want . Do you have any preference of order ? project manager: I'd like to hear marketing: project manager: o I'd like to hear who's g who's on the from from Catherine actually first . I want what I'd like to hear about is if we've finally decided on what sort of energy we're gonna be using and industrial designer: marketing: Batteries . project manager: It's just that yeah , let's let's hear from you first . industrial designer: Where is that thing ? user interface: Okay , it's marketing: It's here . industrial designer: so for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is which was used in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of which wouldn't be v wouldn't be v v project manager: I don't think any of us remember the fifties . marketing: industrial designer: You can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . industrial designer: Or you can use solar cells , but I'm not sure about that indoors , really , but user interface: Well , there's sometimes combinations , like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power . project manager: Do sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? marketing: . user interface: I think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but I don't know . industrial designer: And if we want something fancier , I think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice , marketing: . industrial designer: For the case of the remotes itself , they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . You can have a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what , so project manager: What's a double curved one ? industrial designer: You know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing . industrial designer: So then the case material itself , so it can be either plastic or latex , rubber , wood , or titanium . And th for each of them you have cases where for example titanium , you can't use it for if you if we're choosing a double curved case , we can't choose titanium . And if we are choosing solar cells then we can't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . And I think we discussed earlier on the R_ S_ I_ problem thing , so we could project manager: So that might be an idea of using the rubber , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but then it should , you know user interface: Let's have a squeezable remote . And also it doesn't break as easily maybe , project manager: when a T_V_ programme's got one industrial designer: I dunno user interface: project manager: watching the match and your team's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it'll bounce off the wall back at you . marketing: I think rubber's project manager: Rubber , we're all we're all going we're all liking that idea ? You think you can market that ? marketing: But after my after my fashion thing , I think you'll realise that rubber is more project manager: Ooh , we like rubber , ooh . And then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , or you could have L_C_D_ , which gives you a display . industrial designer: So if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . project manager: Well , we're gonna go with I think we've decided that it's gonna be a rubber case so industrial designer: So it's a constraint . Yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? If it's not a double curved , then we've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it's a double curve , we've gotta go for rubber push-buttons . user interface: If it's rubber , isn't it malleable anyway , it doesn't matter if it's double isn't a rubber case , mean it's completely flexed , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? Mean so what's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? project manager: rubble double double . industrial designer: No , but na le you see , you've got , okay , the energy that's one thing , project manager: I'll have a Big Mac , please . And that's we don't care if it's rub rubber or not , but then we've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . So if we've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it's flat , single curved or double curved . And I'm just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go I dunno why , but we need to go for rubber push-buttons . so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons . industrial designer: and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gonna be the cheapest . If we get an advanced chip which is used for the L_C_D_ , the display thing , then that's even more expensive . project manager: is , okay , advanced chip on print , which I presume is like one P_C_B_ and that's got all the electronics on one board including the infra-red sender ? industrial designer: . what a what alternatives do we have to that ? Y what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? industrial designer: Well , if if it's not chip on print then , I guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and doesn't include the infra-red . It's less expensive project manager: so it sounds industrial designer: Technically speaking , it's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . project manager: So , why would we not go for that ? If it's something that's inside the the unit . project manager: we wanna go for an i i all industrial designer: So let's not go for the project manager: so long as it works , industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . marketing: What about the just developed sample sensor ? user interface: I think push-buttons is project manager: What about what ? marketing: G there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing . industrial designer: Well project manager: Well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? marketing: I dunno . industrial designer: It'd be it'd be cool , but they are saying they've just developed it , user interface: Yeah . But it's gonna be the most expensive option , probably and project manager: S user interface: Th the the speech recognition option is it doesn't seem really very promising for us , project manager: Yeah . user interface: 'cause The yeah the example that they're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi That when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . So you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello Rick , or whatever . user interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the T_V_ on like , turn the T_V_ on , and i turns comes on , but it's not that . user interface: So , yeah , like what's the point of saying , Hello remote , hello , how how are you ? marketing: Oh , then then project manager: Yeah . marketing: I thought I thought it was when they said user interface: Yeah , if you're really lonely , it is it's marketing: I thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant like , industrial designer: Channel five . industrial designer: Okay , so I'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . project manager: It's cheap , it's cheerful , it's worked , does work . Then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? project manager: We were go we were going with the late with the the R_S_I_ rubber , weren't we ? user interface: Yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . industrial designer: Okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons , project manager: Yep , but we're going for the simple buttons . industrial designer: and that's fine ? project manager: And it's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it industrial designer: P user interface: Yeah . project manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that the the people have the R_ people were getting the complaining about R_S_I_ , and this is anti-R_S_I_ . You industrial designer: I thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a project manager: You see , you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen . project manager: It's the v it's the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement . industrial designer: project manager: But the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-R_S_I_ ps specific marketing: . marketing: Yeah , so they can sit there and go like user interface: Not that watching T_V_ should be that stressful . project manager: And you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children yeah . marketing: user interface: Oh yeah , I guess T_V_ can be stressful , yeah , if you're watching sports . I also took Reissa's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration , 'cause I think that's that's crucial as far as what keys we're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they're laid out . user interface: and so the manufacturing division sent some some samples of of interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , like the coffee machine . It would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the T_V_ . so yeah , they they also give the they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an M_P_ three player like iPod . user interface: so we've already addressed that and I think that would actually be worse for something like R_S_I_ you got that thumb movement that you're constantly doing . user interface: and I I have a feeling that we're interested in in something more general , but they suggested , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have lot of colours , the keys might be you know , funny or or , project manager: user interface: or something for the elderly , where the remote's very large and the buttons are very large and there's only a few buttons . But you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well . You don't want you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without always pressing the wrong one . And I didn't mention that we need a power button in our last I can give you an example here of , good layout and bad layout industrial designer: user interface: from our manufacturing department . So this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a V_ on both of them , so project manager: Yeah . user interface: And so , yeah , I th I think my personal preferences of we've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page . user interface: I didn't I didn't think the spinning-wheel or the L_C_ display were were crucial for us . Well let's so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? The The the the interface type we're going for user interface: So we're we're not gonna have any sort of display I think . user interface: ideally , a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad . And some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that . user interface: Well now that we've decided on our project manager: Are we gonna hav hav an are we d marketing: project manager: have we decided on whether w we're gonna s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we're not we're just gonna go for something user interface: it seems like we wouldn't wanna make it too busy and too sort of gaudy , project manager: We're marketing: Maybe we can user interface: but Yeah , I would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the R_R_ can be yellow , or something like that . Let's move over to user interface: I I guess the fact also that we are having a rubber case would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before . user interface: 'cause s so if we wanna have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button . user interface: But I think that should be , I can speak with the button department , but I think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other the other buttons from operating . Well , I'm just basically letting you know what's happening in the markets project manager: yeah . marketing: and also recent investigation that we've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to project manager: marketing: which we've already probably discussed . So the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have . So it has to be project manager: Yeah , why should people buy this when they're already got a remote that came with the T_V_ ? marketing: Yep . So project manager: What's that mean ? marketing: Technologically it should be like work , basically , I guess . user interface: Well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense , marketing: Should user interface: have something that's little more technologically advanced than what's on the market . project manager: Okay , now the trouble is is we've already decided that we're going with the stuff that works already , that's cheap . user interface: it's different , but I wouldn't say like a rubber remote is fancy . marketing: That's why I was thinking , Bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up Bluetooth , and it's like a Bluetooth remote control , everybody's gonna like , oh , 'cause Bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is , like people and when it comes to marketing like that's what people go for , they don't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not . marketing: Well , they do , but it's like it's not project manager: One hundred per cent , that's your first thing , you go , oh I'm not gonna buy that , 'cause I dunno if it works or not . project manager: Okay , well , what do you two think about this ? user interface: So is is the advantage of Bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other marketing: But like project manager: Yeah , what I don't understand what m user interface: electronics ? marketing: You could always insert , yeah . user interface: Yeah , that's basically what it allows you to do , project manager: Yeah , user interface: right ? project manager: and it this is just gonna all this is being used for is your television . marketing: Yeah , but , people like project manager: It would that would mean you'd need a television that has Bluetooth in it , which no no television does , marketing: Well , if you're looking at if you looking at something that's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art . industrial designer: Well project manager: does it ? That would mean we'd have to make a television as well . industrial designer: Bluetooth would , for example , enable you , I think , to connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you're being called by this person right now . industrial designer: No i user interface: Yeah , the that wouldn't be the remote so much , project manager: Yeah , user interface: project manager: and i industrial designer: No , but if you get Bluetooth on the remote , you'd be able to project manager: Nah , the televi the television would have to be a Bluetooth compatible , basically . marketing: Well , it doesn't project manager: An and there is no there is no such thing marketing: Like it doesn't have to be , you know , Bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . Whether it's a battery it could be something really really minor , you know , like but I think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people've already seen it , people've already got it . marketing: If we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and just go creative . It's been done for watches , but I haven't seen that for remotes , yet . marketing: project manager: The fact that it's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . Th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it . industrial designer: Yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . user interface: Yes , so can project manager: But yeah , by the squeezing it the marketing: I think , safety s user interface: Yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator . Next year's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . So next year people will be buying , I found this really funny , you know , strawberry shaped chairs , industrial designer: user interface: Okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a and an avocado key on them . and as it's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it's it's not quite spongy , but spongy , I would say is user interface: . And so personal what I was just saying like move away from the current remote controls like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company's image , basically . marketing: So we're moving in the right direction like project manager: Alright , yeah , no , this i this is good , user interface: Yeah . project manager: so through all that we've we go we're right , we're gonna go go back to going with the kinetic thing , industrial designer: Yep . project manager: that's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-R_S_I_ you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries , marketing: . project manager: industrial designer: sued the Beatles so user interface: Okay , we'll make it a pomegranate , a big pomegranate . industrial designer: project manager: Well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we haven't really finally agreed on is its image . Like , yeah , we're we're saying no we don't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be , user interface: . project manager: or like are we going yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? marketing: Well I think , if it's rubber it needs to be project manager: you said earlier on i it should be funky . I think , it's it should be , what do you associate with rubber ? You know like project manager: L keep it clean , keep it clean . industrial designer: marketing: Okay , sor I sorry , I used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? industrial designer: marketing: like I'm just thinking bright colours . Wanna make it different colours so anybody can choo like like project manager: Like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ? user interface: . Tha user interface: The one thing I'm wondering about , I hope that we're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having project manager: Yeah , we that's we we user interface: if somebody go goes into the store they're gonna see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato remote . user interface: what are ninety per cent of people gonna take ? marketing: Well I can say in this country , you'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . project manager: marketing: And parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it's like kids won't break it , it's not breakable if you throw it around . The only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but project manager: Well , it's it's gotta be chew proof . marketing: So user interface: marketing: so it's rea it's quite project manager: marketing: it's quite like user friendly industrial designer: marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , I think . Especially maybe younger girls if it's in pink they'll be like pink remote control for their room something . project manager: So , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different marketing: Yeah . project manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the industrial designer: That's yeah . marketing: So like you walk in , you're like , oh I like that remote control , because it's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh I can choose the colour wow . So it puts , I think , even the customer into more control over what they're buying instead of , you've got all colour it's either that or nothing . user interface: Yeah , that that seems to work well with for products like iPod , marketing: It's user interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing . industrial designer: Although I'd be curious to see how many marketing: D you've got the industrial designer: You know , there are some colours that I wouldn I would never choose , and I would be curious how many people choose that colour . project manager: Well that's that can be down to bit of market researching you know , user interface: Right . Well , we'll alright let's what we're gonna aim to get together by the next meeting then is from you Catherine wi your y y you know you're gonna be working on the the look and feel design . project manager: Gabriel , you're gonna be working on , you know come up with the the user interface design . project manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . project manager: We were kinda going , yeah , it's gotta feel nice , it's gotta look cool and that it's industrial designer: It is . project manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other . And I will be industrial designer: marketing: project manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and marketing: project manager: f fielding off some more spam and industrial designer: Great . So we know for definite we know we've we've now got some definite things going on . project manager: we definitely know that it's gonna be a simple buttons , we're not gonna be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we've we're keeping the costs down . project manager: People , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite , marketing: Yeah . you know , we're gonna we we're gonna as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things are there extra things this product have ? We'll look into this lock key user interface: Right . project manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , or is possible , I don't know , but something to look into . project manager: everyone know what they're doing ? 'Cause if you don't , you'll I'm sure you'll soon get an e-mail about it . project manager: It's we're we've still couple of minutes until our meeting's due to finish . But I got a note saying that you two who are gonna be working together marketing: project manager: so bef before you all disappear off just user interface: Okay , I'll stay in here . user interface: Does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that project manager: I think , it's , yeah , I think , it's gonna be par part more of a profit sharing on the product . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: So we're buying fut , we're getting futures in the company . project manager: Yeah , I think i I think that's I think that's the way it's gonna happen at the moment . user interface: I'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that's really doing well . user interface: Well I I did notice looking at , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the R_R_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable . user interface: if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it's not obvious . Well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it's doesn't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it's just sil silver and black . project manager: And the spaceship doesn't have the R_ have a massive R_ and R_ down the side of it user interface: No <doc-sep>project manager: I have some points I would like to some some issues I would like to point out . first of all , if you make minutes yourself as well , like Sebastian does , could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you wrote down , user interface: Yeah . the second thing , I was th s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . industrial designer: So project manager: the agenda for now are there any pre-discussion questions ? marketing: user interface: No . industrial designer: project manager: we wi we will have your individual presentations , then the decision on the remote control concept , and the closing . So I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , the progress you've made . project manager: I think it might be smart to look at Ruud's information first , because I understood there are some significant changes in the market situation . Ease of use is important , but innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is even more important . And some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their clothes , shoes and furniture , user interface: marketing: and that they want spongy material . But we since we are concentrating on the younger group project manager: w wait a sec wait a se industrial designer: Oh wait wait up . project manager: could you go to the previous slide ? because I'm taking minutes marketing: 'Kay . The feel of to be spongy industrial designer: so do you think when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ? marketing: Well , one example given was this , so I assume they just want something colourful . user interface: you said in the p industrial designer: marketing: No , the younger group likes more colourful objects . marketing: But user interface: I had industrial designer: But can you can you go back to that slide ? The marketing: Which one ? industrial designer: just one slide back , marketing: This ? industrial designer: no no no . industrial designer: Has it something to do with that natural feeling also , do you think ? project manager: marketing: well , it might . project manager: Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t it it shouldn't be too hard . marketing: Yeah , and like the older group likes familiar materials , user interface: Or we could make oh . But since we're conten concentrating on the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and make it colourful or like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers . industrial designer: project manager: Do you know the phone ? industrial designer: I don't know the phone , project manager: It's the Siemens C_ twenty five , industrial designer: but I can imagine it . project manager: I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank gave away , user interface: thirty five . project manager: the very user interface: And the b the light blue and it's also in yellow . project manager: You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th marketing: I've seen it , project manager: Okay . Okay , so the the m important findings are innovation is more important than ease of use for the our target group . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , because most of things we already said in the previous discussion . project manager: Okay , well it's good to to sum up the things we already thought about . user interface: the previous ideas were voice recognition and the round button for the p channel programming and volume . These are both with with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and just , well , a weird shape . user interface: So I suggest I couldn't I had a small mock-up sign on the on paper . But it's it's kind of it's kind of o organic , so that's very good . project manager: And what I'm thinking about , maybe we should make very light but a grip this is how you hold a remote control . project manager: it shouldn't be too glatt , too slippery , industrial designer: Slippery . project manager: s because user interface: But if you have something like the Siemens phone , it's rubber . There are there are also remote controls who have a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in , project manager: Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: Oh and to add on Ruud's information , in this interface we can have high-tech with the voice recognition and , well , the the fancy colours and and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . user interface: So if you have the voice recognition , you can you can programme like thirty thirty c controls on it . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: Okay , b but I think we'll industrial designer: Okay , but I'll I'll go into that , project manager: yeah . I had a talk with our manufacturing division , and we had a talk about all the different components who are in this design . that's the most common remote con control form we're used to is just a it ju it's just a box . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the big grey image you had in your presentation . industrial designer: But it's quite advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . We can use plastic , which is very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source source . project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: You really have to imagine like winding up your user interface: Great . project manager: Well , it would be very new to the market , industrial designer: I d marketing: project manager: but industrial designer: It would be very new , marketing: industrial designer: but it's a kind of a retro style , I think . So when you're watching T_V_ or when you're you you have to make some kind of energy kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: It have it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . project manager: I think , if if I can hook on to that , the kinetic thing is very funny . project manager: solar is of course it's nice , but it's , well , your your calculator has a solar panel . project manager: hand dynamo user interface: But if you're watching a movie , how many times you take the the remote control and and project manager: Well , maybe m user interface: if if you have a watch , you have the kinetic idea in a watch also . industrial designer: But you know you know from your own watch your watch uses a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . the the shaking of your body , which is almost every activity makes your body shake , it charges it . So I think you have a problem when you're watching a movie and you haven't moved the remote i remote control in a in an amount of time , and you want t to switch the channel or something , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: So , but maybe maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: and when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries . project manager: Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f a lot of power . industrial designer: And we of course have the traditional solar power , which is just a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . The user interface controls , of course we have the push-buttons and we also have scroll-wheels . in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means you can watch in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is currently user interface: So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four user interface: user interface: But I th I don't think the scroll-wheels I had some I had some information about it too . user interface: I don't think there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels . project manager: Well user interface: I d I can't see any scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ? user interface: Yeah , that's a possibility , industrial designer: it's do it's done before . user interface: But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for project manager: Volume ? industrial designer: Well , it's it well , i what he means is there's an button integrated in the scroll-wheel . project manager: Ruud , wha what do you thing about a scroll-bar ? scroll-wheel . But it's done before , there are many other devices like telephones and our radio , pocket radios . industrial designer: And Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now . project manager: Nokia has a well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this . user interface: Yeah , I believe if you have what we've earlier said , the grip places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb . user interface: So in that case the volume button on the side of the remote control would be perfect . industrial designer: Okay , we have to know , if you want to use these rubber double-curved c case , you must use these push push-buttons . We basically have three types of chips we can use and these chips incorporate all the Logica and hardware that is needed to send to send a signal . So so user interface: you programme it , you m mute and you g you give an an action to it that that's really the mute function industrial designer: okay . user interface: So you say mute , he repeats mute and you makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . And if we don't want to use any of these more advanced functions we can keep with the simple chip , which is a bit cheaper . project manager: d did we already decide on the display ? To industrial designer: no , but I think that's something for Roo here to think about . Well , I don't have I haven't looked for for information about it , but I don't think information y I don't think you need it on a display . user interface: Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think industrial designer: I I don't think either . user interface: 'cause all any T_V_ can can view a digit on on screen , industrial designer: No . Okay , well project manager: th industrial designer: my conclusion , unfortunately the market has decided the a little other than I thought . I thought the market would like a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural stuff . It's it's more advanced , but I'm I think you should combine it with batteries . project manager: Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy , industrial designer: Otherwise it will not too advanced , project manager: too industrial designer: well . industrial designer: It's in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries . user interface: But what about the markets wants colourfuls designs ? So if you use titanium project manager: No no , but the that's what Sebastian said . project manager: No , user interface: And I would think marketing: And project manager: r marketing: yeah , project manager: rubber with colours . industrial designer: Okay , well these scroll-wheels , I think they they can be they can be handy . user interface: And they can be implemented with a regular chip ? industrial designer: So Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple user interface: Okay , but we also we already need the regular chip for the sample sensor speaker industrial designer: Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an a different user interface: oh , project manager: But but do we want the curved design , user interface: evalu project manager: or industrial designer: I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple straight-forward not curve design , i it's too dull . industrial designer: And if you take the double-curved , then you cannot you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels . project manager: Okay , what about the issue I addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? the voice function w with the infrared issue . It's it's I I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device . But project manager: It depends also on your on your user interface: Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just to the other wall . project manager: But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue . industrial designer: I think it gives us the advantage of user interface: And and the scroll scroll-wheels . project manager: according to Ruud , the the the market likes new flashy technology , industrial designer: Technology . project manager: well , ok I know , but it's m it's less s standard marketing: Standard ? project manager: than than Well , we are not very w we do not know much about the the f the financial part . project manager: Because if we do have enough space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it , industrial designer: user interface: But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp the speaker the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours . I think i Ruud , do you have any anything you would like to add or or maybe thoughts or marketing: Nah , n no , I don't think so . M project manager: No ? Sebast nee , Roo ? Roo , do you have any other user interface: no . the n the next phase will be the not the project manager: Sebas industrial designer: what is the next phase f Flores ? project manager: Well , we we need to describe decisions now . project manager: So industrial designer: So i project manager: on the energy , well , we decided . project manager: User interface user interface: but can't scroll-wheels work with one one-curved case ? Yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: project manager: and the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard . user interface: The project drawing is for the next industrial designer: So you will be on the Bahamas . marketing: project manager: Yeah , it's it's when we come back in thirty minutes , you will have a prototype ready . So can you give us a summary of all decisions we've made ? project manager: Yeah ? I can . user interface: But can there be wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ? project manager: No , user interface: 'Cause if we have to choose project manager: they can be complementary . industrial designer: Well , project manager: Every device user interface: What if not ? industrial designer: It it should be . Okay , industrial designer: So project manager: th industrial designer: So just the energy source is the batteries and the solar . What about the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ? project manager: Yeah , with colourful rubber . project manager: if it's possible with different covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can can help us with with such a wish . Don't you think ? project manager: Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before . so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image industrial designer: . project manager: or or thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m c market group , I guess . marketing: industrial designer: Okay , marketing: industrial designer: but I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on the device . Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print , industrial designer: Oh , I've read . industrial designer: And th the they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too . marketing: user interface: What what did you say ? industrial designer: Well you can use well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too . Because it i what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy devices , or or i user interface: Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually . user interface: What I said in the in the first discussion , the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber . project manager: is that does our our supplier say so ? user interface: It is not something it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from marketing: didn't did we inc include the digi digits or leave them to the speech recognition ? user interface: No , but but it marketing: 'Cause things like volume could be placed next to the button . So still then , if you feel li if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting . project manager: No no , there's no painting , only yellow or But it's into the rubber . project manager: Yeah , but this is on the pla user interface: You have to draw the industrial designer: Yes , the signs . project manager: What about making this rubber and making this plastic ? industrial designer: I see what you mean . project manager: But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber . project manager: industrial designer: Well , I'm I'm not so sure , user interface: Y can you separate these these industrial designer: I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need to make these buttons all all of rubber . project manager: I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ? industrial designer: I think both . The side , but do you touch between the the these buttons ? user interface: I think Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have a lot of space to touch . project manager: because you have to make its prototype , and yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and user interface: Yeah . The chip is is not really industrial designer: The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . project manager: Yeah ? Yeah , if you write wrote anything down , could you put it on the shared folder ? industrial designer: Okay

Regrettably, Marketing did not receive specific user requirements at this time. However, User Interface provided valuable input during the discussion, highlighting the importance of a user-friendly remote control. Specifically, users expressed a desire for regular-sized buttons and a compact and convenient design. Additionally, they emphasized the need for a wide zapping range to ensure the remote control could function from a distance. The Industrial Designer proposed integrating scroll-wheels with buttons, but User Interface questioned its practicality. In response, the Project Manager suggested incorporating a scroll-bar on the side for muting the device. Since an LCD display was not necessary, a regular chip was deemed sufficient. User Interface presented a comprehensive overview of the buttons and layout for the remote control. The team collectively decided against implementing a speech recognition interface due to its cost and unnecessary nature. Ultimately, they agreed on a simple set of push-buttons, including power, channel up, channel down, volume up, volume down, numerical keypad, and a lock button or cover. The team also discussed additional features such as colors and gimmicky elements. User Interface proposed using black and yellow colors, with special parts like the RR logo in yellow. They also suggested incorporating a rubber case for safety reasons. During the presentation by Marketing, the user requirements were shared, based on market research conducted with 100 people. It was found that users were most frustrated when they couldn't locate their lost remote control. The research also indicated a need for a simplified interface, as users did not want to spend time learning how to use the remote control. Many buttons were deemed unnecessary, and teletext was considered outdated. Marketing expressed a negative view towards incorporating voice recognition. Furthermore, Marketing highlighted that customers generally expected the new remote control to be visually appealing and technologically innovative. The trendiest shape suggested was that of fruits and vegetables. Users also expressed a desire for a spongy texture. Marketing suggested that the team could consider a fruit-shaped remote control made of rubber material. In summary, the team discussed various aspects of the remote control design, taking into account user expectations and preferences. The focus was on creating a user-friendly and compact remote control with regular-sized buttons and a wide zapping range. The integration of scroll-wheels and a scroll-bar for muting were considered, along with the decision to forgo an LCD display. The final design included a simple set of push-buttons, with the option of a lock button or cover. The team also discussed the use of colors, such as black and yellow, and the incorporation of a rubber case for safety. Market research revealed the importance of a simplified interface and the negative view towards voice recognition. Additionally, customers desired a visually appealing and innovative remote control, potentially in the shape of fruits and vegetables with a spongy texture.

What were the group's discussions about the user requirements and user interface controls of the new remote control, including the presentation of buttons, layout design, and color?

professor b: So ne next week we 'll have , both Birger and , Mike Michael Michael Kleinschmidt and Birger Kollmeier will join us . professor b: and you 're you 're probably gonna go up in a couple three weeks or so ? When d when are you thinking of going up to , OGI ? phd d: Yeah , like , not next week but maybe the week after . So at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: - huh . So there was this conference call this morning , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: No , this I 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different Aurora people or just ? phd d: yeah . There were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , people were tired , I guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , included e including everything . W It 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the VAD at this point , phd d: . We probably should do that pretty soon so that we don't get used to it being a certain way . We have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency Well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . And i is the tandem network , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: no , I don't think so . phd d: It 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the MIPs , I think it fits , professor b: phd d: and I don't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in ROM , so it 's maybe not that expensive . But professor b: Ho - how much memory d ? H how many ? phd d: I d I d , I I don't kn remember exactly , but . I 'd like to see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . professor b: But I guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , t , server side . , mmm , and one of the trick was to , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the VAD network . , so apparently it looks better when , we use the silence probability from the VAD network professor b: Huh . So it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , that Sunil also tried , on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also . Yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , professor b: Could ? , I 'm I 'm really sorry . So there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: Yeah . phd d: And things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , given by the VAD network , professor b: Oh . phd d: professor b: The VAD network is ? phd d: Which is smaller , but maybe , So we have a network for the VAD which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . phd d: Maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we don't have infinite training data and professor b: We don't ? phd d: Well ! And so Well , things are not optimal professor b: Yeah . phd d: and Mmm grad e: Are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . , there was a p problem that we observed , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . phd d: Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I I I think , the number of insertions . professor b: So , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: professor b: Right ? Because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: And , if you have , f the distribution that you have from , f speech sounds is w sort of one source of knowledge . professor b: And this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . Well , there are other things that we should do but , it requires time and We have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better VAD . Of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and , but their noise estimation , professor b: back on the second stream , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . professor b: so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: But , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . So , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , might be good . Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th , maybe try to train , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the Aurora task and I think that people might , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: Right . Well , that 's something I would like to investigate further , but , I did , like , I did , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the SpeechDat - Car Italian and tried to transcribe them . phd d: but but still , what happens is is that , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: Yeah . , but what happens also is that if I listen to the , a re - synthesized version of the speech and I re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a LPC , filter professor b: Yeah . phd d: well , you can argue , that , that this is not speech , professor b: Yeah . But s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: Well , it 's phd d: eh professor b: There 's two problems there . , so so the first is that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . professor b: Right ? So it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . What if you had done analysis re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in . professor b: What would the percentage be then ? phd d: professor b: See , that 's the question . So , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , Let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . professor b: That would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . But professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve is pretty crummy " . professor b: So I I I 'm not sure I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . Well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , what I what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . And professor b: Well , you 're not doing the LPC phd d: in this case professor b: so so what if you did a phd d: Well , it 's not LPC , sure , professor b: What if you did LPC - twenty ? phd d: but LPC ? professor b: Twenty . professor b: So , all I 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , removal of pitch , you also are doing , a particular parameterization , phd d: professor b: so , let 's see , how would you do ? So , fo phd d: But that 's that 's what we do with our systems . Actually , we d we we don't , because we do we do , mel filter bank , for instance . Right ? phd d: Yeah , but is it that is it that different , ? professor b: I don't know what mel , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: I professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd a: Couldn't you t couldn't you , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: So , y , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with LPC - twelve it went to five . professor b: We were we were j It it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . professor b: And , i if you listen to them they still might not be very Even if you made something closer to what we 're gonna i it might not sound very good . professor b: and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , to understand than the LPC - twelve . So all I 'm saying is that the LPC - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: - huh . professor b: and is , It 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . And so it it isn't phd a: But professor b: But , I agree that it says that , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , a little bit , minimal . And that 's why I was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . So , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? If that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say " OK , it 's it 's in fact having , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , @ @ has the information that people can use , anyway . phd a: But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . professor b: Well , or it 's it 's phd a: Two two to six percent . professor b: Yeah , so It 's it 's one point four times , to , seven times the error , phd d: To f seven times , yeah . phd d: But but professor b: But that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: But the signal itself is like a mix of , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: So , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? Because phd a: In the LPC synthesis ? I think professor b: Yeah . professor b: So , and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . professor b: Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an LPC synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , periodic pulses . professor b: Right ? phd d: Yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . professor b: Well , it might be hard to do it phd d: So professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . professor b: But I 'm I 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what I would wanna test . professor b: I wan would wanna drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . professor b: And then that would tell you whether in fact it 's Cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . Maybe maybe , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . Evi professor b: But , other than that , I don't think it 's , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , that we 're throwing away that 's important . professor b: Right ? , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and phd d: If somebody was paying really close attention , you might get I would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . professor b: So it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . On the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . , while we 're still on Aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , Wall Street Journal things for it . They wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the Wall Street Journal , data . , I 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and I wrote a note to Joe asking him about it . , they on their web site they , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . So they 're professor b: This is on clean test set ? phd a: This is on clean on clean stuff . They they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , they don't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . professor b: What kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm the they 're showing word error rate . But on this one , I I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . professor b: phd a: So m I guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , they 're really high . professor b: I I I don't find that surpri phd a: So professor b: we W what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on , some of the higher error rates on , some of these w , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? What 's a ? phd d: . phd a: Correct ? phd d: And the baseline , eh phd a: Accuracy ? phd d: error rate . professor b: So if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: Yeah . professor b: Yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd d: The baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: Oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . professor b: It 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you can't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . , they 're I I 'm still waiting for them to release the , multi - CPU version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single CPU , which will take a really long time to run . But their s professor b: This is for the training ? phd a: I beli Yes , for the training also . So , as soon as they get that , then I 'll I 'll grab those too professor b: OK . I 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single CPU one , professor b: if the phd a: and I they they , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . So I can I can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . Is that about right you think ? phd d: we don't know yet , I I think . Did they say anything on the conference call about , how the Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be run ? Because I I thought I remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place , phd d: No . Well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: Oh , OK . phd d: and , professor b: Some phd d: frankly , I don't know because I d didn't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . But , did you do you still , get the mails ? You 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: I I don't get any mail about professor b: I have to say , there 's something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies doesn't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by Mississippi State . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . If you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . But phd d: You didn't get any answer from Joe ? phd a: I did , but Joe said , you know , " what you 're saying makes sense phd d: - huh . phd a: that 's th We had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gonna are you gonna run this data for different sites ? And , well , if if Mississippi State runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , But then he wasn't asked to run it for anybody . phd a: he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: So it could be , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , I think , that , one thing that we might wanna do The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . What could you do ? And , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , features . But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , @ @ the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: Nnn , the dist Yeah . professor b: But , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . But but , you know So because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we don't really know what the effect is at the other end . professor b: So , my thought was maybe , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a Gaussian shape than Gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . So , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of Gaussian when you take it 's log . And we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really can't change the word insertion penalty . But the other thing we could do is also we could , this this may not help us , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . We might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , " well , OK , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . " phd a: I wonder if it it might be possible to , simulate the back - end with some other system . So we we get our f front - end features , and then , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , you know , if we 're gonna take it to a root or to a power or something , we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . phd a: professor b: And just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , decides that that professor b: Well , we can probably use the real thing , can't we ? And then jus just , use it on a reduced test set or something . So , I I think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: professor b: And the knob that we use should , unfortunately , like I say , I don't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: grad e: Out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from Mississippi State ? phd a: w what do you mean when you say " what kind " ? grad e: Is it ? , is it like a Gaussian mixture model ? phd a: Yeah . phd a: It 's the same system that they use when they participate in the Hub - five evals . , they started off with , when they were building their system they were always comparing to HTK to make sure they were getting similar results . And so , it 's a Gaussian mixture system , professor b: Do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: I don't know . professor b: D Do you know what kind of tying they use ? Are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of Gaussians that they share across everything ? Or or if it 's ? phd a: Yeah , th I have I I I don't have it up here but I have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: OK . phd a: It 's some kind of a mixture of Gaussians and , clustering and , They 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . professor b: So the other , Aurora thing maybe is I I dunno if any of this is gonna come in in time to be relevant , but , we had talked about , Guenter playing around , over in Germany phd d: professor b: and and , @ @ , possibly coming up with something that would , fit in later . , I saw that other mail where he said that he , it wasn't going to work for him to do CVS . professor b: So if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: Yeah . I just saw the Eurospeech We we didn't talk about it at our meeting but I just saw the just read the paper . Someone , I forget the name , and and Ney , about histogram equalization ? Did you see that one ? phd d: it was a poster . It was something similar to n on - line normalization finally , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: Yeah . But it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? So they had like ten quantiles phd d: Yeah . professor b: So you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: N professor b: and then , So this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , I guess . And and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . professor b: You do this kind of piece - wise linear or , some kind of piece - wise approximation . They did a one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . And , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . And then they have s they have some kind of , a floor or something , grad e: . phd a: So is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: Or ? professor b: I think this i You know , I don't remember that . I Something like one per frequency band , professor b: One phd a: So , one histogram per frequency bin . phd a: So th professor b: And I don't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: Oh . phd d: and I didn't professor b: or whether it was FFT bins phd a: Huh . professor b: or phd a: And and that that , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: I don't remember that . And they do they said that they could do it for the test So you don't have to change the training . phd a: So they , Is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: I guess in pri Yeah . professor b: whether it was some , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . We 're sort of curious about , what are some things that are , u u , @ @ conceptually quite different from what we 've done . professor b: Cuz we you know , one thing that w that , Stephane and Sunil seemed to find , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . So , we 're not making any use of pitch , which again , might might be important , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . And and , And we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . So I guess , Guenter 's gonna play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: I dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: I don't have feedback from him , but professor b: Yeah . phd d: I guess he 's gonna , maybe professor b: Well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . professor b: So potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: - huh . So , why don't we just , I think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gonna be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . But , n not not so much in this meeting about Aurora , but but , maybe just , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with Michael . So Michael Kleinschmidt , who 's a PHD student from Germany , showed up this week . And he 's done some work using an auditory model of , human hearing , and using that f , to generate speech recognition features . And he did work back in Germany with , a toy recognition system using , isolated digit recognition as the task . , and he tried that on I think on some Aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . And he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a , a real speech recognition system . And , maybe I should say a little more about these features , although I don't understand them that well . And I 'm - I 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that isn't already modeled in something like , PLP . And then the second stage is , the most different thing , I think , from what we usually do . It 's , it computes features which are , based on sort of like based on diffe different w , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . So th he uses analysis functions called Gabor functions , which have a certain extent , in time and in frequency . And the idea is these are used to sample , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . And , that , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , in a a multi - scale way . You could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . So he 's interested in , Th - this is because it 's , there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , there are a lot of different possible basis functions . And so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . H What does he do to choose those ? grad c: The method he uses is kind of funny is , he starts with he has a set of M of them . , he and then he uses that to classify , he t he tries , using just M minus one of them . grad c: Whichever sub - vector , works the the best , I guess , he says the the fe feature that didn't use was the most useless feature , professor b: Y yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gonna randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: So it 's a professor b: So i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . grad e: It 's like a greedy professor b: But it 's but it 's , it 's there 's a lot number of things I like about it , let me just say . , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . But it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . The primary features , are in fact Yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , you know , PLP or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . We always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . , if you put in if you also include the RASTA in it i RASTA the filtering being done in the log domain has an AGC - like , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , auditory front - ends . , I would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . So , for instance , if you look at the LDA RASTA stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the LDA and they form filters out of it . But , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like " let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there " , and so forth . It 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: I it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: Yeah . , but it 's also , Hyn - when Hynek 's had people do this kind of LDA analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . I think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - D and that would be the closest to these Gabor function kind of things . And , the other thing that 's interesting the the , the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but I kinda like it . , eh , I remember people referring to it as old when I was playing with it twenty years ago , so I know it 's pretty old , called Stepwise Linear Discriminant Analysis in which you which I think it 's used in social sciences a lot . And what what Michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you don't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . So , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . , it still isn't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . professor b: And and and , the thing that I wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . professor b: so so that , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you don't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . And , And we 've also talked a little bit about , Shihab Shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , upward moving , energy and fre and frequency . But , I think we 're sorta gonna start off with what he , came here with and branch out branch out from there . grad e: As as we were talking about this I was thinking , whether there 's a relationship between , between Michael 's approach to , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . grad e: So , like , if we have , we have our we have our RASTA features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . grad e: Right ? And , and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . And then when you 're looking at the the , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , brain surgery by taking out , hidden units that don't really help at all . grad e: And this is k sorta like professor b: Right ? grad e: Yeah . professor b: y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , there 's a a , a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , nonlinearity that , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than Gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: grad c: professor b: so you could argue that in fact it But I I don't actually believe that argument because I know that , you can , computing features is useful , even though in principle you haven't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform You know , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . And so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . So that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . Because if it wasn't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . Well , if we had infinite processing power and data , I guess , using the waveform could grad e: Right . But but , i it 's With finite of those things , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , phd d: professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . And it and it it , not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , it just doesn't do nearly as well . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . So maybe just briefly , grad e: Well , that sort of segues into what what I 'm doing . grad e: so , the big picture is k , come up with a set of , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , improve speech recognition in that way . , so right now I 'm in in the phase where I 'm looking at at , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . And I 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , will help me to discriminate later down the line . And one of the ideas , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . And so , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . , and I 'm gonna to try to to look at those patterns to to see , from those patterns , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . And maybe maybe some , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of , that the neural net learns . professor b: Be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . professor b: So , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use P - RASTA - PLP or something for the the primary features , then this feature discovery , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . And , the other difference is that , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , spectral extent . Right ? And whereas in in this case you 're saying " let 's just do it unconstrained " . So they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . Yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . , the other one was , to , come up with a a a model , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we don't know anything about , but that through , s statistical training and the EM algorithm , at the end of the day , we have , we have learned something about these these latent , latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . Yeah , and so those are the the two directions that I 'm I 'm looking into right now . Should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: Oh , tea time ? professor b: Yeah . It 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: That 's ri professor b: We do the digits and then we get our treats

The team had a discussion about the technique of histogram equalization, which was mentioned in a recent paper by Ney. Guenter from Germany expressed his skepticism about using CVS for his work and mentioned his plan to work on histogram equalization. PhD A was curious about the specifics of the technique, particularly how the histogram represents energy levels and its implications for the model. The team engaged in a conversation about the paper and explored the potential applications of histograms.

Summarize the opinions and thoughts of PhD A on histogram equalization.

lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education committee this morning. We've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning. Can I ask if Members have got any declarations of interest they'd like to make, please? No? Okay. Item 2 this morning, then, is a further session on our follow-up on our 'Mind over matter' report. I'm very pleased to welcome Carol Shillabeer, who is chief executive of Powys Teaching Health Board, and who manages the Together for Children and Young People programme. Thank you very much for attending, and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning, so if it's okay we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start and ask you if you're satisfied with the progress that's been made since the programme was established in 2015. So, the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services. Other models that are very similar have been talked about as well, and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist CAMHS. It's some years ago now since this committee did the original report, and obviously Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the Wales Audit Office had done reports in the past, and I think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action. You'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas, and so therefore had to make a prioritisation. We have provided the committee with a red, amber or green rating of where we feel that we were, and that was just before submission of the evidence. Certainly over the last nine months or so, we've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work, which we're not actually leading now as a programme, although we facilitated the workshop held in September. But that's got a real momentum, and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward, and I'm sure we will come on to that in more detail. But we know there is more community workforce in specialist CAMHS, we know we're seeing children in a shorter time frame, and we know we're accepting more referrals, so our indicators are telling us we are making progress. And you referred to the work on the whole-school approach, which is very welcome, and I recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well. But I'm sure you'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people's mental health, and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance, then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme. Are there any particular areas where you feel you haven't made enough progress that you'd like to draw the committee's attention to? carol shillabeer: This is maybe about what the programme's done, but really around the broader sense as well. I'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies. I'm assured that we've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the Matrics Cymru framework developed for children and young people. I've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee, who have owned this, and we're working together more on this area. That's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas haven't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models, but that is an area we should have made, I think, earlier progress on. There's been a general reflection from myself and the Together for Children and Young People programme board over the phase of the programme. I think we started very strongly; I think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle, if I'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel, and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months, and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist CAMHS into that whole-school approach. But, if I could just agree with your comments about the whole system, it has to be the whole system and that's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical. If I can just say, in case I don't get a chance to say this later, I was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday, because what is clear is for that part, the early help and enhanced support, this isn't just about the NHS and it's not just about education, it's about every part of the system, really, which does make it more complex. But I just wanted to say that I think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it's needed and yesterday was a positive step. In terms of local primary mental health support services, what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people, and how much of this is due to an increase in demand? carol shillabeer: Yes, thanks very much. So, it's important to say, I think, at the outset, just by way of reminder, that the target, quite rightly, changed for children and young people. The target changed some years ago for adults, so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children. So, the services were working, a couple of years ago, with significant demand and then a change in the standard. I think you're absolutely right; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children, particularly within the 28 days. And we've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health Measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce, the staff, who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health, into a bit more of the secondary element, which is why the review being undertaken by the NHS delivery unit into primary care CAMHS is so critical, because, actually, if we don't have—and I believe we don't have—enough capacity in that part of the system, then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this. So, I think we will have seen, by the evidence submission, that demand has increased, not just in Wales but in the UK, and it has increased significantly. We are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so, we have more contacts, more staff, shorter access times, so that is a good news story. We've not got it completely sustained at this stage, and therefore the focus of the delivery unit's primary care CAMHS report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention. I know, from my own experience as a constituency AM, I have families who tell me that they can't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's—. And I don't like to put it in resource terms, but it's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family, but, obviously, in terms of cost as well. Do you find that that's a common theme across Wales? carol shillabeer: Yes. So, we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that's why this is a whole system, not compartmentalised. I think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist CAMHS, but can be supported, often by telephone, at that earlier stage. My sense of where we go next, in terms of, you know, you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle', as you referred to it in your report, is to make sure we've got a fully joined-up, multi-agency team approach to that. But yesterday's announcement about youth work, the Government's commitment to primary care, CAMHS, et cetera—that's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist CAMHS. And just a final note on that, if I may—at the beginning of the programme, we had a report from Hafal called 'Making Sense' and there were 10 key asks, if you like, of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service. They said, 'Please don't medicalise it'—I'm paraphrasing now, of course—'Please don't medicalise it; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then, when we really need help, please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level.' That's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme. What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented? And also, given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year, who, in your view, is best placed to forward this work stream, and what will be the biggest challenges? It's a bit of a long question, so, break it up however you like. janet finch-saunders am: And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face? carol shillabeer: Yes, I think that's helpfully laid out in three stages. So, you're absolutely right, there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support. It brought all of the agencies together, which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list, apparently, for places. In relation to the next steps, there is a planning group reflection in early July, in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop, and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage. One is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose. The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area, and then, thirdly, to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps. I'm pretty sure we'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards. There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work. But during the summer, then, we will be developing that framework approach, and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference in September, and then a follow-up workshop in October on this matter. On your question of 'Well, what happens after the programme?' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme. That will move, most likely, to the CAMHS network, which is part of the NHS mental health network. The whole-school approach element is already settled in Government and we've got a connection in to that. The question that's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go. I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work. I don't see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach, as we move forward. So, I'm not in a position to say, 'And the legacy arrangements will be—', but I am in a position to say that I'm having those discussions with Welsh Government officials. They know my view that we've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward, and I believe that they are supportive of that. lynne neagle am: Janet, I think those two questions have been touched on, the remaining questions. We are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements, but if I could just ask on psychological therapies: you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area, and the area hasn't been directly led on by the Together for Children and Young People programme. Do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area, because, you know, we've got different compartmentalising of actions, and this is absolutely key, isn't it, really? carol shillabeer: Yes. There is some refinement to be done, I think, in making sure the connections are there. So, I think, as we move to programme end, we'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging, so to speak. I am confident—I mentioned the mental health network board that I chair—that we have those strands nailed down, but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the NHS. So, this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that. So, in the evidence that I've provided, you'll see the First 1000 days, all the adverse childhood experiences work, the Cymru Well Wales partnership, et cetera, et cetera. So, there is a bit of what I would call tidying up of the landscape to be done, and this is the ideal opportunity to do that. We've got some questions now on specialist CAMHS—if I can just ask about the impact of the specialist CAMHS framework, and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people. Without wanting to go back too far in history, I remember coming into this area back in 2014 as I was asked to establish a CAMHS network. When we spin forward five years, I can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist CAMHS. The programme has helped; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand, actually, there is a good case for consistency in the main, with local variation. If I just give you an example—you'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish. We do have inconsistency in that, but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across Wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes, which helps to prevent admissions and then, where there are admissions, helps to support people to be at home. The key thrust of this is that there is a backbone, if you like, of a consistent approach with that local variation. So, things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is. So, if I just refer to the previous question that I had, and I talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out; that's been tried in one area, been evaluated—let's see the spread of that. So, you'll know my view on internet counselling, for example; I feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end. If that works in one area, why aren't we rolling that out to other areas? So, I think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together. You've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care, but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service, especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming. Wherever you live in Wales, is that help there for you now? carol shillabeer: Well, in your work to produce the 'Mind over matter' report, I clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police. We've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist CAMHS umbrella, to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that. For example, is it that because the CIT, CAT, COT, CITE—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area, that actually it's after that that the network of support isn't as strong, and, if that is the case, what are we going to do about that? There's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults' and children's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours. So, we are taking an extra look at this, because I could not be 100 per cent confident that, throughout the 24-hour period, we've got this fully settled. I continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they've not got that solid place to go, and we're following those through. hefin david am: I think, Chair, I should have declared an interest here, as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly. We're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals, and that will increase further in the future. Can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children? carol shillabeer: Thank you. I'm not sure that anyone really knows why, if I'm honest, although there is a lot of academic research going on. What we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through. So, in the information provided, I refer to the NHS digital prevalence report in England, which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder. Now, that sounds a bit shocking when we say that, but that's in the international classification scaling, and, of that, certainly, 2.5 per cent is around autism. So, if I just take my own health board for a moment, we usually have about 75 referrals per year. If I can just give you a sense of what we've done so far and then what I think is next, I want to recognise the work of Dr Cath Norton and the steering group that's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme. We now have a community-of-practice-type environment, and we're really getting into this. One is that most referrals that come through, the clinicians tell me, are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support. Now, that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that. So, if I just take my own example of 300 in the last year, we're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families, but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be. Because we've put these teams in, because we've got the new pathway, has that opened a gate and we've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern? hefin david am: Can I just ask a question there? carol shillabeer: Yes. hefin david am: So, with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that? carol shillabeer: In a year, yes. hefin david am: Did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected? carol shillabeer: I think we anticipated a few more, and just to say that in my— hefin david am: But not on that scale. And in my own health board—I'm just referring to my own, and I'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place. We had a NICE-compliant service already in place, but we knew we needed to expand that, which we have done, but we didn't anticipate 300. So, this is happening not just across Wales, actually, but across the UK—so, this greater recognition, the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route, which is really important. What I would also say, and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward, is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what I would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so, a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support. So, we've got a lot of people who are under that threshold, but that's a lot of people who still need help and support. I'm trying to very fairly and, I hope, appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme. It's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold, because there are needs elsewhere as well, and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support. Can I just mention a few more things, as I'm on roll on neurodevelopmental? hefin david am: It's up to the Chair. carol shillabeer: Is that all right? Sorry, I know it's a very long answer. There is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private Member's Bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there's a real—. Having the broadest view would be advised by them, and I think they're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call, say, a 'perfect world' would look like. In terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements, about what the big, big things are, we are still needing to tackle. hefin david am: I personally took a very personal decision when it came to the Member's Bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice I received. Because I didn't vote for that Bill, and I'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there. But what I do have concerns about is if the increase wasn't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the Together for Children and Young People programme has a duty to review capacity, after October who's going to make sure that that capacity's reviewed on a strategic basis? carol shillabeer: So, I should have probably added in that we've got a piece of work under way at the moment—Welsh Government commissioned it—by a person called Patrick Holton, and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental. I think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term. We know that money's been put into this and it has had an important impact, but we now need to be planning for the next three, five, 10 and many years beyond that. I think there are some conversations, when I talk about the landscape being quite busy, about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue. So, it's not just about a childhood thing; as people move through, we've got to get much better at that long-term planning. We will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that. It also connects to the early help and enhanced support, because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment don't meet a threshold for a certain category, that's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation. If we can just move on now to in-patient care, and if I can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of CAMHS in-patient care, particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in Abergele and Tŷ Llidiard. Again, quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients, and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units. I think, certainly, there is some recovery in the position in north Wales, and the programme did a peer review visit to north Wales, which I think was very helpful. In terms of where the programme has been on this issue, there is some work under way, at quite an advanced stage, around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services. This was quite a tricky thing to start off when you're in a position where, actually, there've been some restrictions, to then ask the service to think about going even further, but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce, get the right environment, et cetera, et cetera—so, that piece of work, the review of the specification about what could be possible. Clearly, we work very closely with Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee as the commissioner, so we don't commission that. But, if I can just say, probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children. We haven't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams; we've got social care and we've got healthcare. I've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of Care Inspectorate Wales, for example, and we have now got, I think, a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future. It has been largely successful, the work that has taken place over recent years, but not without its key challenges. And, just briefly on the new specification that WHSSC are developing, that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours. How concerned should we be about that being a challenge, particularly in Abergele, where staffing has been a major issue? carol shillabeer: Yes. I think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented. The peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment, where the unit is, the challenge across north Wales of the workforce. These are issues well known by the health board, by the way, so it wasn't a surprise to them. But that dialogue about how do we ensure that we've got the right workforce, because that unit, potentially, could—you know, it's an isolated unit, and they’ve been risk-managing. They've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they've got available, and that's been entirely the right thing to do. With regard to the increased CAMHS posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in CAMHS posts—we know that there's likely to be labour market demand, high labour market demand, in those instances, so are the vacancy rates higher in Wales than elsewhere, given the increase in those posts to be filled? carol shillabeer: So, you're absolutely right. There's been quite a lot of investment, and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service. We had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing Peter to pay Paul, to be quite frank. So, as new services were being developed, people would move from one part of the system to the other. That has improved slightly, but we're in a national context, particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine, of a national shortage, so this is not a quick fix. So, if I can mention psychology assistants, for example, my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team, rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based. We're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: More of what? carol shillabeer: They have more skill mix in their workforce. hefin david am: Just to clarify there, what you're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the Wales system and more psychological staff, experts, in the UK picture. So, England had a programme called IAPT, which is about psychological therapies, and had therefore looked at the skill mix. We've chatted to colleagues in England, trying to learn—we're all trying to make improvements in this area, of course; it's a UK and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach. Because of their vacancies they had to skill mix, and because of the money that they had available—they didn't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we've been able to secure. And if I can just make a plea, really, around recognising the input of the third sector—so, it doesn't always have to be an NHS-employed person to work in service provision, direct front-line service provision, and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services. And that is one that we will need to cultivate, because, to be quite frank, our recruitment challenges won't be solved overnight. We've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times, but, with the training time, it's not a quick fix. hefin david am: Does the workforce profile remain different, or are they starting to—? carol shillabeer: They're starting to come together. Each year we do the NHS benchmarking, and we can see where we are compared to others, and I would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing. hefin david am: So, if you compare a child in Wales with a child in England in the last two years who's been through this, would they have had a different experience as a result, and different clinical advice as a result, or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile? carol shillabeer: That's quite a big question. Hand on heart, could I tell you I absolutely know the detail of that? No, I couldn't. The practice in this area is guided by National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance, so it's pretty much guided. When you skill mix a team, you enable the right referrals to go to the right person, so you wouldn't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well, you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs. And we've seen some of that; if I just make reference to the panel approach in Gwent that's been developed, a multi-agency panel come together, a referral comes in, it's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented. So, we can be much more flexible in relation to that, and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person, because, if we've got a resource that is highly specialist, we want them to be dealing with those children and young people. hefin david am: And one of the things you're able to do—because there's a lot about the labour market you can't control, but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development. What other things are being done in addition, and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question, but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you? carol shillabeer: Thank you for that. I think there's a huge focus on staff retention now, not just in Wales but across the UK. What are the factors that affect retention? Actually, well-being, well-being at work—and you'll know that within 'A Healthier Wales' the focus on staff engagement, staff well-being, has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services, and, then, as you rightly say, training and development and career opportunities. I think the community of practice—it's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit, doing collective reflection on service improvement, and being very clear about learning from one another. And, if you're a clinician, that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward. So, I think we have the fundamental building blocks in place, but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate. hefin david am: What about the Welsh language in the health board? carol shillabeer: Thank you very much. In your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the Welsh language, and have we got enough Welsh language practitioners where we need them. I'm pleased to say that, over the last few years, I think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of Welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their Welsh-speaking communities are. We're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient CAMHS and community intensive services, because, particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable, they would choose the language they wish to choose. So, we will be in a position to, by the end of this programme, provide that position statement on what happens next. I would also say, of course, we've got the Welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment, and we've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards. Obviously, everything you've been speaking about already, particularly about workforce development, applies to children in care as well, where there's other work also going on in terms of support. Can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects, then, with the outcomes for the children in care work programme? carol shillabeer: Thanks very much for that. So, we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group, which is good. We also have a director of social services on our programme board and, obviously, they're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children. I just made reference to, under the question on specialist CAMHS in-patients, the need to bring those services together, and that, really, is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the Together for Children and Young People programme and the constituent parts. We've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that. suzy davies am: Can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground? Because it's great that people are talking together, but how would that affect, I don't know, individual members of the workforce, or, indeed, the children we're talking about? carol shillabeer: Yes. So, if I just give an example of a unit in south Wales that is a social care unit, we've been having discussions about, 'Well, actually, shouldn't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?' So, we haven't yet got an agreed position on how we're going to do this, but the position is that something needs to be done, and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change, I believe. But what it will mean, I think, in practice, is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors, or we could be designing services that are fully integrated. Now, there may be challenges in that, but, you know, let's get them out on the table. So, in terms of this seamless health and social care system for Wales, this is one of the tests of that, I would say: can we, within the next five years, 10 years, really bring that together? That will take quite a lot of work and commitment. On the looked-after children specifically, we have picked that up, particularly following your previous report, looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system. We are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be, particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances. That's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream, and we'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme. And you're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps don't have very frequent looked-after children reviews, because, from all other perspectives, things are going fairly well. And, of course, there's the edge-of-care work that the Government have been supporting, and, certainly in my own area, under the regional partnership board, we have a Start Well programme, which is the old Children and Young People's Partnership programme, where there's a significant investment in supporting children and young people, families, on the edge of care, which does pick up fostering. We've heard, not necessarily just in the context of this report, because we've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention, and I've in fact only recently—well, just this week, actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency, and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services. The transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now, and the programme was involved in developing that guidance. But what's your assessment of the impact that it's had? Because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps, aren't we? carol shillabeer: Yes, thank you for that. You're absolutely right; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that. And, in particular, I know that the children's commissioner is very focused on transition, not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support, but children in paediatric wards, and there is a working group with Welsh Government looking at this. The children's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say, 'Well, if this works, this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere'. If I were just to give an estimate of where I think this will land, I think it will have made improvements, but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing, supporting, auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance. So, I talked about community practice and clinical audit: is this something that we make, then, a mandatory audit, each year, that we do that double check? Because it's one of those things where we know when a child is 14, 15, 16, 17, so what's stopping us? If indeed the evaluation says it's not happening everywhere, it's not happening early enough, what is stopping us? We really need to get underneath that. So, my sense will be it will show us, it will be better, but there's some further work to do, and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who haven't had the guidance fully implemented, because it can make a real difference. dawn bowden am: Yes, and it seems to me—you've just talked about having a systematic approach, and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process, isn't it? So, it shouldn't be difficult. I know we're talking about in the health service things shouldn't be difficult and they are, and one of the gripes—I had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new IT systems and so on—let's not go there at the moment. But, really, this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services. It's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult. carol shillabeer: Can I add one other dimension in, which I think is going to be quite interesting? We talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it's not just in mental health, but it's elsewhere—then you start to think, 'What if we could reduce transitions?', so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better. We are doing a piece of work with Government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be. There are probably some pros and cons, but should we be moving to a 0-25. That is moving the transition at the age of 25, but at least it's not at the eighteenth birthday. What's the argument around what adolescent, young people and young adults services are, for example? That piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: You could probably have a gradual transition, then, couldn't you? carol shillabeer: Quite potentially. I've got some people who have joined my own health board who've worked in that 0-25-type service, and we're catching up—'Tell me what was good about it? Tell me what was not so good about it? What did the young people themselves think about that?'. Because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions, there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right, then. We've got some really important questions now about legacy, because throughout the session this morning you've referred to ongoing work, really, and that is a major concern for the committee. suzy davies am: Yes, thank you, Chair, we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work's not been completed. Obviously, we've got the Welsh Government's strategy for mental health running until 2022, which is a few years longer. Can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue, perhaps even if it's just for the same length of time as Together for Mental Health, or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system? carol shillabeer: Thank you for that. Can I just say, I've given this so much thought over the time, because I think you might have asked me this question when I came previously? There are two ways to look at this. I'm absolutely sure that the issue of children's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time. We have made a lot of progress, I think, as a society, in talking about this now. I talk to my own children and say, 'What's going on in your lives at school?', and they talk about this. This is not an issue, if you like, that I believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years. So, on the one hand, I think my view last year was that, when you have a programme of work, you should have a start, a middle and end, really—otherwise it's not a programme of work, it's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism. So, my position last year was, 'This will have been running for five years—we've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist CAMHS, we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this' et cetera. My position now is I want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work, if this programme is going to close. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. suzy davies am: Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue? carol shillabeer: Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon. carol shillabeer: There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over. suzy davies am: You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction? carol shillabeer: I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward. suzy davies am: Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—? carol shillabeer: If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—? lynne neagle am: Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point? carol shillabeer: I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about. lynne neagle am: And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this? carol shillabeer: I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that. suzy davies am: Anything particularly you want in addition to that? lynne neagle am: No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Education clarifying some issues around the Welsh network of healthy schools scheme, following the task and finish group. Paper to note 3: letter from the Minister for Education on the implementation of the Diamond reforms, and that's ahead of our session on 4 July. Papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children's commissioner and the Minister for Education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education. And then paper to note 6, paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children, to the First Minister, Children's Commissioner for Wales and the Association of Directors of Social Services. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 14thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. Chair, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, a report entitled "Democracy Matters, Debates Count: A report on the 2019 Leaders' Debates Commission and the future of debates in Canada. Chair, on behalf of all of us, I want to thank the Right Honourable David Johnston for his continued service. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented. It would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor. It also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which, in certain casesfor instance, inside Chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they're killed and used for transplantation. Petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204, and they want to see it passed as soon as possible. Chair, I am presenting a petition today signed by Canadians who are concerned that Bill C-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime, including the mandatory 10-day waiting period. Chair, these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living, not assisted dying. It asks that the Government of Canada recognize the Republic of Somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments, direct access of development aid, foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): Mr.Chair, I thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on Canadians. Canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times. While addressing Canadians, our right honourable Prime Minister showed us leadership, the importance of transparency, and integrity. His top priority was saving lives, along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life. Because of his outstanding leadership, we're admired across the world, which is another distinguished privilege of being Canadian. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): COVID-19 has emptied food banks across Canada, even in an agricultural community like Chatham-Kent, so Wes Thompson and James Rasmussen, along with Alysson Storey, Randi Bokor, Maureen Geddes, Chris and Terry Johnston, Jason King, Fannie Vavoulis and Brent Wilken, grew an idea into the community's largest-ever food drive. Project manager Morna McDonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the May 16 Miracle. Residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps, with drop-off centres organized for rural areas. They accidentally exceeded by over 20% the record in the Guinness World Records book for collected food in a single day. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): As much as I like seeing my friends on the big screens, there are no big screens yet, so we don't know who's on and who's not on. Here in Surrey Centre, and across Canada, the Filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape Canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today. Now more than ever, during these challenging times we must come together as Canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our Filipino neighbours. Throughout June, please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of Filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making Canada a better place for all of us. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. Today is World Milk Day, and I would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry. Let's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors. Enjoy the yogurts, cheeses and other products because it's true that milk is good. I would also like to thank BrunoLetendre, outgoing chair of the Producteurs de lait du Qubec, and I congratulate the new chair, DanielGobeil. The first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors, and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): Mr.Chair, June is Italian Heritage Month. The situation is special this year, since Italy has been hard hit by COVID-19, with more than 30,000deaths. Like me, many Italian Canadians still have family and friends in Italy, and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take, yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between Canada and Italy. During the pandemic, Canadians of Italian descent have been united to support anziani, our famiglie and our amici in Italy by participating in the fundraising campaign COVID-19 AiutiAMO lItalia to support the Italian Red Cross response activities. I send a special salute to to my cugino Giuseppe, who is still on the road to recovery from COVID-19. Chair, I would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in Saskatchewan and across Canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic. As soon as the pandemic hit, RDBID launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs, local initiatives and local success stories. They have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services, online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers. Through persistent communication and a lot of long hours, RDBID has helped businesses in downtown Regina to weather the storm. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): Mr.Chair, high-speed Internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th: an essential service. I would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government, but also about the work I've been doing as a member of Parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of ArgenteuilLa Petite-Nation. Aside from this essential service, our students, seniors, entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions. We have heard you, and I will continue to fight for you, so that you can have access to affordable high-speed Internet. Chair, a few days ago, we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in Minneapolis. For many of us, these images may seem shocking, but it's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the United States but also here in Canada, in my city of Gatineau and around the world, who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism. Mr.Chair, I can't know what it's like to be black in our society. What I do know, however, is that you and I, and everyone in this House, have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just. Black Canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us, and they expect more from us. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): Without a doubt, these past few months have been challenging, to say the least, from both a health and economic perspective, but, Mr. Chair, I have to say how proud I am of my community of StormontDundasSouth Glengarry. We continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and, just as importantly, we are making sure that we are here for each other, whether it is the Cornwall Optimists' GoFeedMe campaign, the Iroquois-Matilda Lions Club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local United Way, the Social Development Council or the Carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need. I rise today in the House of Commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all Canadians; to our essential front-line workers, our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge. I couldn't be more proud of my community and my residents, and it is an honour to serve as their member of Parliament. Chair, although Asian Heritage Month has just passed, we recognize the tremendous effort of all Asian Canadians on the front lines of this pandemic, as health care providers or as essential workers. I want to thank the many Asian organizations for donating to ScarboroughAgincourt's hospital, long-term care homes and food banks. As a Canadian born and raised in Scarborough, I'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting Asian-Canadian communities across this country. In budget 2019 we invested $45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy, which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat, because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed. As events continue to unfold in the United States, it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well. Whether it is anti-black or anti-Asian, racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in Canadafull stop. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Over the last few months, Canadians throughout New Brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community. Health care workers, truckers, farmers, business owners, pharmacists, grocery store staff, faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part. Chair, I would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors, who are among some of our most at-risk citizens. It has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable. Whether they be long-term care staff, personal care workers, health care professionals, family members or volunteers, thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors. Although we've come to the end of Asian Heritage Month, I'd like to acknowledge some unsung Chinese Canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation. I commemorate the 6,500 Chinese Canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite Canada. I pay respect to the many Chinese Canadians who died while building the CP Railway on the most dangerous terrains in the B.C. Adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists. There's no justification for racial slurs, physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community. I will continue to work together with other elected officials, the police and the RCMP to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): Ten years ago today, Cree youth leader Shannen Koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident. She was only 15 years old, yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination. Shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community, but her work carries on through the Shannen's Dream movement. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): Mr.Chair, for months now, thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected: three class action suits, a unanimous motion by the National Assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights. Air Canada, which confiscated $2.6billion from its customers, received more than $800million from Ottawa without any conditions. Yet, the company has a year's worth of cash in reserve, $6billion in its coffers, and is in the process of raising more than $1.4billion in the financial markets. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): Mr.Chair, I want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here, in the House, for close to 15years: MichelGauthier. Michel, in life, we meet a lot of people, but some of them leave their mark on us forever. From the first time I spoke with you two years ago, I immediately understood that I was talking with a man with heart, a passionate man, a man who had Quebec imprinted on his heart. Because of your decision to join the Conservative Party of Canada, I got to know you personally, and I am most grateful. I will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters. Michel, Canadians, Quebeckers and I will remember you forever, the great man you were, the outstanding speaker, a formidable parliamentarian, with integrity, passion, commitment and love for Quebec. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): Mr.Chair, the murder of GeorgeFloyd in Minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in Canada and also in the heart of Montreal North. At a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers, an event like this rekindles feelings of fear, powerlessness and injustice. It has happened once again in the UnitedStates, but we are not immune to such behaviour here, in Canada. Dear constituents of Bourassa, I know our stories, I feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person. There seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it's being transmitted, so let us make things run more smoothly. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. When the government first starting rolling out programs to help Canadians get through this pandemic, we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program. Well, Canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus. Here we are the first day of June and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs; it is still letting so many Canadians down. On April 20 we raised with the Minister of Finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss, and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy, even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that. I would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. Chair, I believe that a company with a fantastic Canadian history in the member's riding, Brandt Tractor, which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in Canada, is particularly affected by this. I know that in the case of Brandt Tractor, for example, officials from the Ministry of Finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues. It's the same answer we got two weeks before that, and it's the same answer we have been getting from day one. This is a very specific question: Will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program? hon. Chair, let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many, many Canadian companies and for many, many Canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program. Now, for sure there are always going to be companies which, because of specifics in their history, need specific attention, and that the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent, precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it. It's a yes-or-no question, and the minister still can't answer it. Along the same lines, we asked on April 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30% revenue loss using other metrics, such as loss of earnings, subscriptions and orders, in order to qualify. Chair, we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep Canadian businesses going and, crucially, to keep Canadian workers connected to their jobs, but I have a question for the member opposite. Half of the questions we hear from the Conservatives in question period are concerns that we're spending too much money, that the deficit is too high. We believe that when times were good, this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $50 million to Mastercard and $12 million to Loblaws. The fact of the matter is that the government left Canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility, and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more Canadians from getting the help they need. Again, on April 26, Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account can qualify. Chair, I'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for Canadians. Canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7. Canada has the fiscal firepower to support Canadians during this unprecedented crisis, and that is what we are going to continue to do. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and SMEs, to avoid closures and bankruptcy. Have I missed something? Is the Liberal Party on the verge of bankruptcy? Is it about to shut down? Does the Prime Minister consider that the Liberal Party is getting ready to close its doors? hon. More than 2million Canadians have benefited from this the chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille, you have the floor. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, the Liberal Party made $3million between January and March of this year. I'm wondering why the Liberal Party doesn't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. I would like to point out again that the purpose of the Canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across Canada and Quebec, to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, does the Deputy Prime Minister think it is moral, fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the Liberal Party of Canada out of their taxes? hon. There is still a lot to do, but we want to work with all the the chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, many struggling businesses in Quebec don't have access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy because they don't meet the eligibility criteria. Does the Deputy Prime Minister really think it's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees? hon. However, it's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support Canadians. More than eightmillion people are benefiting from the CERB, and more than twomillion the chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille, you have the floor. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, what I understand is not really complicated to understand. I understand that the Liberal Party has money, that it has money to pay its employees, but that it doesn't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election. It's as if it were telling us that it's indirectly financing itself for the next election. Will the Deputy Prime Minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I want to point out that our programs do not discriminate. They are there to help all workers across the country, and I want to point out to what extent our programs do that. Eight million people are currently benefiting from the CERB, and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy. Our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of George Floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner. Anti-black racism also impacts Canada, and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored. Will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of COVID-19's impact on communities, particularly black Canadians, and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence? hon. Chair, I would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in Canada and in fighting against it. I agree strongly with the member opposite that we, as Canadians, must be the opposite of complacent. We have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country, that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real. I have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus, and I hope I'll have a chance to do that in my next answer. Will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in Canada, particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding? Will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies, and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country? hon. First of all, on coronavirus, our government believes that disaggregated data, including when it comes to race, is extremely important. We will always work to uphold the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in Canada are protected. At the federal level, RCMP members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination. How many times did the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from March 25 to April 22, during the worst impacts of COVID-19 in long-term care homes? hon. Chair, at this moment I can only speak for myself, and I have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times. While seniors were dying in long-term care homes, the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government met with private, for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times. Why did the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem? Instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role, why didn't the Prime Minister and the Liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes? hon. chrystia freeland: Let me very clear about one thing, speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the Prime Minister. Our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country, and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces about facilities in Ontario and Quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: Now it's Mr.Rayes's turn. alain rayes: Mr.Chair, why is it that employers from industry, businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the Canada summer jobs program still haven't received the money they're entitled to? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): We are ensuring that the Canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced. We have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: Mr.Rayes has the floor. Given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work, how is it that the organizations haven't yet received the money they need to hire students? As we know, there have been some problems with the CESB. ahmed hussen: Our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of COVID-19. We recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year. That is why we have introduced flexibilities in the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers. Last year, there was no crisis and, as of April, all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money. Right now, community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students, to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity. Chair, we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the COVID-19 pandemic. As such, the flexibilities we've introduced into the Canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers, including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to Canadians. These changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the Canada summer jobs program. alain rayes: The young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying. Right now, there is a $240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs, and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility. Why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly, to help the economy recover and to help young people? hon. We are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth, and that it gives them the experiences they need. It is adapted better for the COVID-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program. It's a great program, and we're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits. Last week, the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work. This morning, an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted, but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring. When is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work? hon. Chair, I join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it. That is why we've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills, especially in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow Canadians. By its own numbers, PSPC has had to cut the number of N95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet Canadian standards. Will the minister commit to making domestic production of PPE, including N95 masks, a priority? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers. We have a contract with Medicom in Montreal for the production of N95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: We'll go back to Ms. Chair, Novo Textiles, a company in my riding, has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of PPE in Canada. Additionally, it will soon be producing quality made-in-Canada N95 masks using Canadian designs and Canadian-made machinery. My constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now, not just talking about it. Is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity, or is it all talk and no action? hon. anita anand: In reality, we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories. Chair, to make sure Canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic. Chair, I'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these, but as I said, we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: We'll have to go back to Ms. Chair, we have surgical masks being produced right here at home, as well as abroad, being brought into Canada the chair: Back to Ms. Chair, as I said, we have a contract with General Motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: Ms. It's been over a month, the I Want To Help platform has no details yet about eligibility, levels of funding, or how to apply. When can students expect to start applying for the CSSG so they can receive their grants? Thank you. Chair, I'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible. By visiting Canada.ca/coronavirus, you'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed. The coronavirus will not win, and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow. Last week the President of the Treasury Board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that, as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information, he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability, even in times of crisis. Does she agree with the President of the Treasury Board's directive? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time. The Government of Canada, along with provincial and territorial governments, have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of COVID-19, and to protect the health and safety of federal employees. These measures have had an impact on institutions' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests, since most employees are now working from their homes. john brassard: Frankly, I'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities is in the House, but I will ask this question. steven guilbeault: Treasury Board Secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to Access to Information Act and Privacy Act requests and to provide published content the chair: We'll go back to Mr. john brassard: Can the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities tell us who Pierre Lavalle is? the chair: The honourable minister. He was the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank since the beginning, but let's be clear: Crown corporations work at arm's length from the government and must have the chair: We'll return to Mr. john brassard: Can I ask the minister how well she knows her file: 50%, 75% or 100%? hon. What I know is that Canadians want infrastructure built, they want it built across the country, in the member opposite's riding and in ridings across the country. john brassard: How much of the $35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far? hon. Duclos' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency, I'd like to ask the minister how much Mr. Our government follows the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act when it comes to employee compensation, but remuneration ranges are publicly available. I'd note that this information for the bank's CEOs has been in the public domain the chair: Mr. As I say, the information about salary ranges is publicly available, but personal HR the chair: Mr. Lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75% of his base salary, which was $510,000 to $600,000 per year; or in year two, which he was in, zero to 120% of his base salary. catherine mckenna: The rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board. Will the government commit to reopening the House of Commons with its full powers, with social distancing, on Monday, September 21? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, as my colleague knows, we're meeting here four days a week, with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day. It has no powers to introduce supply day motions, no powers to test government confidence, no powers to do the usual things that Parliament does. At times of crisis, the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested, and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government. 6, and in the last election, they rigged the leaders' debates in their favour, and now they have suspended Parliament. Instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members, will the government commit to the full re-opening of this House with all its powers with social distancing on Monday, September 21? hon. pablo rodriguez: Mr.Chair, the government's objective is always to try to resume Parliament as it was before. Today, we have to live with this pandemic, but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible. Over the past few weeks, we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of Parliament and they have never responded. Chair, the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars, previous pandemics and the October crisis in 1970. It is failing to be strong and clear on Hong Kong and, while the situation today is not that of decades past, it is clear that Canada in the past stood for the rights of people in Hong Kong. There are some 300,000 Canadians living there, and they are looking for the government's support. government has? When will it speak up against the Communist Party of China's United Front workers operating here in this country? When will it do like Australia did in calling for an international investigation of COVID-19, and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend Hong Kongers and the violation of the Sino-British treaty? the chair: The honourable minister. We all know that the one country, two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in Hong Konghas made Hong Kong what it is today, a beacon when it comes to trade and financing. Again, on May 28, with the United States, with the United Kingdom and with Australia, Canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by Beijing would undermine the very foundation, the very principles that have made Hong Kong so successful. We said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement. We will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of Hong Kong, and we will do it with our allies. What's the point of having an advance payment program if there's no payment? Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us when these delays will end? the chair: The honourable minister. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, I can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators. I can assure you that, under the circumstances, they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. However, did the minister approve a policy change on April 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic, yes or no? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program. To make things easier for our administrators, we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic. Who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic? Or did she just go ahead and do this on her own? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we are constantly working with the administrators of the program. We are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country. larry maguire: Livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high. I told the Minister of Agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem, and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support. When will the Minister of Agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to AgriStability. It is now $100million for pork and beef producers alone, not counting the $77.5million for food processors. larry maguire: Livestock producers in my riding and several across Canada are still waiting for the Minister of Agriculture's promise for an AgriRecovery program. When will the Minister of Agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her AgriRecovery promise? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we have committed $50million to beef producers and $50million to pork producers through the AgriRecovery program. Here is how the program works: the federal government contributes up to60% and then the provinces implement it how they see fit. larry maguire: The funding announced by the Minister of Agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient, and what was promised has not been delivered. This has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, once again, we have significantly increased the amounts available through AgriRecovery. dominic leblanc: Mr.Chair, we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way. In some sectors, such as tourism, fishery, hotels and restaurants, we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly. Given that the CERB lasts 16weeks, they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing. Chair, we moved very quickly at the early onset of the COVID-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs, who were laid off, or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the Canada emergency response benefit. Chair, the workers that the honourable member identified, including those who were not eligible for the EI, were also covered by the Canada emergency response benefit. We recognized the urgency of the situation, which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the Canada emergency response benefit. louise chabot: Mr.Chair, are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times? The answer is simple. Can you do anything about it? Can I walk out of the House today and tell all those people that the CERB is going to be extended? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the honourable member for her question. Of course, we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position. People are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that, with a responsible reopening of the economy, we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people. the chair: We are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health. While we have a few seconds, I would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair, not directly to the ministers. Today, June 1, under the auspices of the Food and Agriculture Organization, we celebrate World Milk Day. World Milk Day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food, its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition; and to celebrate the dairy sector, from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace. Canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that, under supply management, provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers. Even under supply management though, dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic. Chair, to acknowledge World Milk Day, I'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk, but we can't do that. On the other hand, I must ask the Minister of Agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate World Milk Day next year with more vim and vigour. Today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country, caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality. The dairy sector in Canada is made up of more than 220,000 Canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us. While our society lives through unprecedented changes, the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system. It is why we increased by $200 million the borrowing capacity of the Canadian Dairy Commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs, giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate. Over the past few years, we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with Europe and Asia. Chair, last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the Minneapolis police. George Floyd's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police. Since his death, solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the United States and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people. I wish I could say we are, but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border. The same protests taking place in New York, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Berlin, Paris and London are also taking place in our own backyard. In cities like Montreal and Toronto, thousands of people have already taken to the streets, not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism. We don't have to wait for pain, suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act. As Canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better, can the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in Canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black Canadians? the acting chair (mr. If we as Canadians truly desire an inclusive Canada, every single one of us must step up, be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces, communities and public spaces safer. The open, transparent, merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting Canadians. We recognize the UN International Decade for People of African Descent; the applications for capacity building in black Canadian communities are being assessed; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for Canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems, including advancement opportunities; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence. Although our government is moving in the right decision, there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies, as partners. Chair, workers' unions, business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to COVID-19. For years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy, but has failed to deliver. Will this government fix the law before more Canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions? the acting chair (mr. I'd like to thank the member for Hamilton Mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file. I remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of Bills C-525 and C-377, which were anti-union legislation. Chair, the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and won't protect workers' and pensioners' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits. The government can protect severance, termination pay, pensions and benefits from corporate theft, but will they do it, yes or no? the acting chair (mr. Chair, we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019, including that the process for the CCAA be more open and transparent. One thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses, and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners. Will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers' and pensioners' rights? the acting chair (mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): Thank you very much, Mr. Twice, following negotiations with the NDP, the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities. I have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors, for instance, the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance, and it hasn't come. Why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now? I want to know the reason why this hasn't been announced yet. We're moving forward with the Canada emergency student benefit, which will provide $2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities. We have done a lot, but we will continue to do more, and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities. Their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic. When are they going to get around to it? Why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have? the acting chair (mr. Chair, that is precisely why we are listening closely to the COVID-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice. According to La Presse, federal cabinet ministers Steven Guilbeault , Catherine McKenna and Jonathan Wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift. True to form, this cabal around the Prime Minister has declared let's not let a good crisis go to waste. Can the Prime Minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer Canada's economy post COVID? the acting chair (mr. As we support Canadians through this time, we will also ensure our long-term economic, environmental and physical well-being. Our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable, prosperous future for our kids and grandkids. Just like science is guiding us in our response to COVID-19, science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change. greg mclean: The task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks, notably eight weeks when Parliament is, by this government's design, absent. Can the Prime Minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, our most urgent priority with respect to COVID-19 is the health and safety of Canadians. While supporting Canadians during this period, we must also ensure our economic, environmental and physical well-being in the long term. Our government remains committed to building a stronger, more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children. greg mclean: The task force is a who's who of academics and bureaucrats, but surprisingly, includes no one from the productive part of the Canadian economy. The task force is reviewing work produced by Smart Prosperity, a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government's own Canadian Institute for Climate Choices. How many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, our priority right now is the health and safety of Canadians. Just as science guides us in our response to COVID-19, it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change. Our priority is to support Canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental, economic and physical well-being in the long term. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but can the Prime Minister confirm if this is the same Gerald Butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force Canada's then justice minister into breaking the law? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, since the beginning of this crisis, our priority has been to support Canadians and their health and safety. We will continue to do so, because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting Canadians. mona fortier: Once again, Mr.Chair, it is important to talk to Canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first. Chair, is this the same Gerald Butts who, in his role as the principal secretary in the office of Ontario's then premier, advanced policies that now saddle Ontarians with the highest energy costs in North America? Is this is the same Gerald Butts who weighed down Ontario with the world's highest subnational debt burden, all for the benefit of new green jobs that, notably, have never arrived? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, for the past two and a half months, we have been supporting Canadians. chris d'entremont: Yesterday, the Minister responsible for tourism, ACOA and official languages was happy to close our national Tourism Week by announcing investments of $70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across Canada. Southern Ontario received $30 million, northern Ontario received $7 million and western Canada received $3.5 million. Knowing that we just had an announcement from the Minister of Transport that there will be no cruise ships in Atlantic Canada or anywhere in Canada this year, resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses, where is the program for Atlantic Canada? hon. I know he's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in Atlantic Canada, so I want to reassure him. Rather than doing marketing internationally, we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country, including in Atlantic Canada, to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local. chris d'entremont: That would be all great if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic and you can't even cross the Nova Scotia-New Brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks. In Saint John, New Brunswick, 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community. Prince Edward Island, which was expected to have a record attendance year, will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers, and $60 million to the province's economy will be lost. Chair, my question to the minister is this: Who is ACOA going to be working with, and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year? hon. It is a bit like the canary in the coal mine; it was the first impacted, and definitely it is still impacted. Again, recently I had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across Atlantic Canada, including Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador for the tourism sector. They wanted to have access to it until later in the summer, and it has been extended to the end of August. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, like the minister, last week, I spoke with Simon-Pierre Poulin, the director of Le Franco newspaper in Alberta, about the Sauvons Saint-Jean movement. He asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though Parliament is sitting in a different configuration. Unfortunately, I had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake Parliament. The Liberal government made a commitment to modernize the Official Languages Act in the first six months of its mandate. mlanie joly: Mr.Chair, it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that, when it comes to language rights, we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved. I had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in Alberta late Friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): Mr.Chair, some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the COVID-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the CERB. Today, I would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the CERB after October3. Chair, we ensured that those who switched over to the Canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it, whether they were EI eligible or not. We are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic. richard martel: According to a survey conducted by the Universit du Qubec Trois-Rivires' research institute on small and medium size businesses, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of COVID-19. In fact, in our region, the tourism industry generates more than $300million in economic activity, including $58million for the cruise industry alone. mlanie joly: Mr.Chair, it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected. We are also providing the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance, as well as the $40,000loans from the Canada emergency business account. I am having good talks with various stakeholders in Quebec, including Martin Soucy from the Alliance de l'industrie touristique du Qubec. richard martel: Mr.Chair, the tourism industry in the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders. Overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year, even though they will have to pay their bills every month. We really want to be able to reach these small businesses, of which there are many in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean, in Quebec and across the country. That is why the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have committed an additional $1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks. We need to respond now, and I will have more to say about it in the next few days. richard martel: Mr.Chair, I was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage. When I spoke with the blueberry growers in my area, they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them. Chair, we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the Canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it, including more businesses, as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program. richard martel: Mr.Chair, on May19, the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account. Chair, small businesses are the heart of all of our communities, and we've been working really hard to help them. On Tuesday, May 26, she gained a new resident when Brinnley Lisette Huby was born to parents Adam and Carina Huby. Carina is my daughter, and that makes Brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest Canadian. Dave Epp: Minister Jordan, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund, while you deny its competitor, our Ontario fisheries that fish on the Great Lakes, the similar right to apply. The Ontario inland fishers and the people in Ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies. We're making sure that we're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries. dave epp: Minister, will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund? hon. Chair, we're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund. We're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it. dave epp: According to Stats Canada, before my granddaughter turns one year old, her share of the federal debt will be over $39,000. What is Minister Morneau's fiscal plan for Canada so that the interest on this debt doesn't cripple Canada with higher taxes? hon. In that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. dave epp: Minister, when can Parliament, or this semblance of it, see that plan for economic prosperity? the acting chair (mr. We've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving Canadians an understanding of the investments that we're making through this pandemic. Chair, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations, like my granddaughter, will have to pay for it. Chair, coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the G7 countries is a function of our economy that's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of Canadians. dave epp: What is the budget for stopping illegal American guns from getting through our borders? hon. I can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border. dave epp: What's the budget, then, to fight government-trained and licensed Canadians in the court challenge that's now been triggered? the acting chair (mr. dave epp: What is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council? hon. Chair, I don't have the answer to that question, but obviously the government will defend its position. Chair, COVID-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks, we're in a storm. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities says they need $10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding, so do municipalities slash services, do they raise taxes, or will we be there for the municipalities? hon. chrystia freeland: Our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times, and particularly today, as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy. That is why the Prime Minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund. Many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients, as the government urged them to do. Thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently. Will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive? hon. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for the question, which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic. We know that the programs we've put forward, programs like the emergency business account, are supporting businesses, but the emergency rent approach, on which we've worked together with provinces, can also help significantly. Of course, the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that I've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months. Chair, this week marks the 31st anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in Hong Kong. In spite of this knowledge, the Harper Conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with China in 2012, the Canada-China FIPA. This Conservative deal gave Chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system. In the years since the FIPA was signed, with no vote in Parliament, Chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing Canadian assets and resources. These corporations can seek financial compensation from Canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking. Can the government tell us whether any of these Chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the FIPA to seek financial compensation from Canadian taxpayers? hon. franois-philippe champagne: As I'm sure the member will know, Canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in Hong Kong. As he knows, we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of Hong Kong. We know that the one country, two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of Hong Kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made Hong Kong a place where people want to do business, commerce and trade. I would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom. We have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by Beijing, if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally, would undermine the bedrock of what has made Hong Kong, and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. paul manly: That was a trick question, because this anti-democratic agreement states that we wouldn't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was, in fact, an investor-state dispute. Unlike NAFTA, which had a six-month period for renegotiation, the Harper Conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the FIPA and this anti-democratic agreement. Will the government re-engage the special committee on Canada-China relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this Conservative sellout of Canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. Canada will always pursue trade in the interest of Canadians, and we are in the process of reviewing our FIPA agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for Canadians to trade, with the interests of Canadians always top of mind. Will the government work with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets, including communities facing food insecurity now? hon. Chair, we've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector. One of the things we're doing primarily is the harvesters' benefit, which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through. We're also changing EI so they can now qualify for their EI benefits based on previous seasons, not this one, recognizing they're going to face challenges this year. We are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs. This government has sat by while the Canadian Transportation Agency issued a statement to back up the airlines' appalling actions. What is this government doing to fix this? Why aren't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for Canadians? hon. Chair, I certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of Canadians who would have preferred a refund. At the same time, at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets, it would have a devastating effect on the airlines. That is why the Canadian Transportation Agency, which is an independent body, recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years. It is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic, we must still have an airline industry in this country. Chair, in Victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit, but now people are particularly vulnerable to COVID-19. If you don't have a place to live, you don't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home. As part of the recovery, will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness? hon. Chair, very early in the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, our government provided $157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless Canadians. While the province has stepped up, it cost them $18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in Victoria. The $157.5 million, I must note, was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of Canada's most vulnerable. We are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. This government's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households, according to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. My question is simple: Coming out of the pandemic in the coming months, is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need, yes or no? hon. Regardless of the COVID-19 pandemic, the last time I checked, we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable. Does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer? If so, how will it do so? The government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery. Every day, we announce measures, of course, but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments. gabriel ste-marie: In my opinion, Mr.Chair, it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments; it is very important. As I said, when the situation is a little more stable, we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update. gabriel ste-marie: Once again, Mr.Chair, when the situation is more stable, it will be too late to do an economic update; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind. Speaking of the recovery, the Parliamentary Budget Officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan. Mr.Giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas, and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties' views. member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do, and to listen to people's ideas and opinions, not only in Parliament, but also from our society. Of course, with our approach, we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector. It would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery. At this time, it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy. Obviously, by gathering more information in Phase3, we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery. I understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time. Can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber? If not, will it be before or after that? hon. bill morneau: We continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery, and we are also listening to our colleagues in Parliament, of course. We were shocked to hear that his own Minister of Digital Government used WeChat, a Chinese social media site, to raise funds to sue a Global News reporterfor what? It was for daring to expose China's attempt to hoard PPE during the COVID crisis. Is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against Canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in China, and will the Prime Minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister? hon. As many members on all sides of the House know, WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the Chinese-Canadian community. In this case, the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group. Chair, Canadians have no reason to trust the Prime Minister on anything to do with China, especially when it comes to trade policy. Two and a half years ago, the Prime Minister travelled to China to commence free trade negotiations, and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment. Still the Prime Minister continues to cozy up to the Chinese regime, refusing to ban Huawei from our 5G network or to speak out convincingly against China's oppression in Hong Kong. Can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the Prime Minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with China about a free trade agreement? A simple yes or no will do. Any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of Canadians first. ed fast: I think Canadians will see that the minister didn't even answer a simple yes-or-no question, so I'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question. Is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with China, yes or no? hon. Chair, we will always do our work, including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work, with the interests of Canadians and Canadian businesses as our absolute top priority. Will the minister now assure Canadians that she and the Prime Minister's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with China, yes or no? hon. mary ng: Any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of Canadians and Canadian businesses. Will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like China is in Canada's best interests? hon. Free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law. In fact, China repeatedly flouts international trade rules, illegally dumps underpriced goods into Canada, and prevents Canadian canola, beef and pork from entering China. Will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with China, yes or no? hon. mary ng: We are not in discussions with China on a free trade agreement, and as my colleagues, including the Prime Minister and the foreign minister, have said many times in this House and outside of this House, our priority continues to be the immediate release of Canadians detained in China. bruce stanton): This will conclude today's sitting of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic

The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food assured that despite the challenges of staff working remotely, the government was making every effort to expedite advance payments. However, the opposition party raised concerns about a policy change that made it more difficult to qualify for these loans during the pandemic. The minister clarified that they were continuously collaborating with program administrators. The specialist CAMHS element would be integrated into the CAMHS network, while the whole-school approach had already been established by the government. The program aimed to establish a strong connection between referrals and the appropriate practitioners and services, with a focus on flexibility and resource optimization. The community had made progress in standardizing services and fostering collective reflection for improvement, although there was still room for improvement in the operating environment. The need to consolidate services for specialist CAMHS in-patients was identified as a priority. While guidance had been developed and the program was undergoing evaluation, further work was required to ensure a systematic approach to implementing the guidance for all individuals.

What were the reasons for the delay in the advance payment program and what were Carol Shillabeer's thoughts on various aspects of the program such as legacy arrangements, community of practice, intersection with outcomes for children, and development of transition guidance?

But we 're gonna try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . Agenda is according to this , is transcription status , DARPA demos XML tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: Does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: OK . grad h: phd d: I g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , could I get a hold of the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so I can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: Certainly . So I 'll I 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . grad h: and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . professor b: OK , wh phd d: I also got anot a short remark to the transcription . I 've just processed the first five EDU meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to IBM whenever they want them . phd d: but the other ones phd f: That 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . postdoc a: These are separate from the ones that phd f: As soon as postdoc a: these are phd f: They 're the IBM set . And so as soon as we hear from Brian that this one is OK grad h: Is my mike on ? Yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: Excellent . grad h: And so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: Yes , exactly . phd f: We 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: Yeah , I think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: Yeah . grad h: Right , which So I 've been working on using the THISL tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the THISL tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . So at least on the one meeting that I had the transcript for conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: What what kind of what does that look like ? The string that you type in . phd f: What are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: Keywords . grad h: Right ? And so and then it munges it to pass it to the THISL IR which uses an SGML - like format for everything . professor b: And then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: right now , I have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: Yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either So so that 's the other thing I wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? We have two tools that have already been written . grad h: the other option is Dan did the Tcl - TK THISL GUI front - end for Broadcast News professor b: Yeah . postdoc a: I Can I ask a question ? So as it stands within the the Channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . So e Are you So you 're adding like , I don't know , are they fuzzy matches or are they ? grad h: It 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based So it 's term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . grad h: and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . So it it 's postdoc a: It 's a lot more sophisticated than the the basically Windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a Google query or anyth anything else like that . grad h: So i it uses So it pr produces an index ahead of time so you don't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . Cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do wouldn't wanna do a search . grad h: you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . And so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well to get it to work on the UNIX systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . grad h: So that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . phd f: So what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: On which tool ? phd f: THISL . grad h: The THISL GUI tool which is the one that Dan wrote , Tcl - TK phd f: Yeah . grad h: you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . professor b: Mmm phd f: So if you typed in " small heads " or something you could grad h: Right , you 'd get phd f: get back a something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something You you 'd get to listen to " beep " . It 's too bad that that couldn't come into the grad h: You couldn't get a video . phd g: Guess who I practice on ? postdoc a: At some point we 're gonna have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . Yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable demo sort of format . grad h: And so I think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: That sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wanna add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . Dave Gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so I 'll work with him on it . And it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that I got the query system working . grad h: If we wanna get it to Windows it 's gonna be a little more work because the THISL IR , the information retrieval tool 's , I had difficulty just compiling them on Solaris . phd f: But you were saying that that the that there 's that set of tools , Cygnus tools , that grad h: So . grad h: But what those they what those do is provide sort of a BSD compatibility layer , professor b: phd f: And you have to have all the o grad h: But the problem is that that the THISL tools didn't use anything like Autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things aren't and different compiler work - arounds and so on . So the fact that it took me a day to get it c to compile under Solaris means it 's probably gonna take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under Windows . professor b: How about having it run under free BSD ? phd e: Well what you need grad h: Free BSD would probably be easier . phd e: All you need to do is say to Dan " gee it would be nice if this worked under Autoconf " and it 'll be done in a day . phd d: phd e: Right ? grad h: Actually you know I should check because he did port it to SPRACHcore phd e: Right . professor b: So grad h: I 'll check at that professor b: But it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: What I phd f: How does it play ? grad h: Yeah , right . professor b: If he has then you learn , if he hasn't then he 'll do it . So , and I 've been corresponding with Dan and also with , SoftSound guy , postdoc a: It 's amazing . professor b: Tony Robinson ? phd f: Tony Robinson ? grad h: Do Tony ? I guess I do . grad h: Which one do ? phd e: Steve Renals is not SoftSound , is he ? professor b: No . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: Assuming we 're phd e: Right . phd f: What about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: I think we 'll be OK with that . phd e: Why don't you try and merge Transcriber and THISL IR ? They 're both Tcl interfaces . grad h: Well this is one of the reasons This is the one of the reasons that I 'm gonna have Dave Gelbart Gelbart Having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the Transcriber stuff phd e: Right . But the point is that the Transcriber uses Snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: Yeah , yeah , I I think THISL THISL GUI probably uses Snack . Well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: And if it doesn't phd e: Right ? Do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: Right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . It might be fairly difficult to get that to work in the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . grad h: but professor b: The thing I was asking about with , free BSD is that it might be easier to get PowerPoint shows running in free BSD than to get this other package running in grad h: Yeah , we have to I have to sit down and try it before I make too many judgments , professor b: Yeah . grad h: so My experience with the Gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . grad h: It 's just , you know , just like all of them , the " include " files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . grad h: So I it might be a little easier but it 's not gonna be a lot easier . So there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about some other stuff which would basically be showing off the the Transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but , and part of that was showing off what the speech - non nonspeech stuff that Thilo has done s looks like . postdoc a: Can I ask one more thing about THISL ? So with the IR stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized ? grad h: phd g: So another idea I w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody work that Don 's been doing . phd g: actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . professor b: Well I think at at the very least we 're gonna want something illustrative with that phd g: I don't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz I 'm gonna want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: Yeah . professor b: pointing at something I don't know much about , phd g: you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: Are you looking at Waves or Matlab ? grad c: yeah I 'm starting to and Yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: Yeah def professor b: S so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wanna have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: I professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . The end of phd g: Oh , the end of this month or next month ? Oh , you mean like today ? grad h: This month . professor b: that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: Exactly . phd g: Yeah if d if Don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: Yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: Yeah . professor b: so , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . professor b: So that 's phd g: I don't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . So I 've been doing a bunch of XML tools where you we 're sort of moving to XML as the general format for everything and I think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of XML tools . So yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in XML because I 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . it works with Transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools because it doesn't mark start and end . , but I 've installed XML tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either information on users because the user database is that way I 'm converting the Key files to XML so that you can extract m various inf sorted information on individual meetings grad c: Cool . And so l just let me know there it 's mostly Java and Perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . Is do we have the the seat information ? In in the Key files now ? postdoc a: grad h: The seat information is on the Key files for the ones which postdoc a: Ah . phd g: Oh in For the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: OK . phd g: I 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when Morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: Yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the Key file ? grad h: Right . phd g: Cuz I haven't been putting it in and in by grad h: You haven't been putting it in . postdoc a: Isn't it always on the digits ? professor b: Some of these are missing . phd g: And professor b: Aren't they ? postdoc a: Isn't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: Some fall out of phd g: Well it grad h: Yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . phd g: they 're on th right , these , but I just hadn't ever been putting it in the Key files . phd f: Yeah I I never phd g: And I don't think Chuck was either phd f: I never knew we were supposed to put it in the Key file . phd g: cuz grad h: I had told you guys about it phd f: Oh really ? phd g: Oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: So grad h: this is why I wanna use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: OK . grad h: I think it 's Edit - key , command Did I show you guys that ? phd d: Yep . phd f: You mentioned it , grad h: I did show it to you , phd f: yeah . grad h: but I think you both said " no , you 'll just use text file " . grad h: Yeah , and so if you don't fill it in , you 're not gonna get it in the meetings . grad c: u grad h: Yeah and then the other thing also that Thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or Crown mike , phd g: Yeah . phd g: maybe I forgot to d phd f: Takes me no time at all to edit these . grad h: Yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: I 'm not doing anything . phd g: And I was I was looking at Chuck 's , like , " oh what did Chuck do , OK I 'll do that " . grad h: And then also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under " participants " they were filled in under " description " . Oh also I 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , that will flash yellow if the mike isn't connected . And it 's not quite ready to go yet because it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the Crown ones , are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . So I 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: Will that also include like batteries dying ? Just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . phd f: But with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: But grad h: Now phd d: y yeah . grad h: the other thing is as I 've said before , it is actually on the thing . postdoc a: It would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little L E Ds for grad h: buzzer . grad h: " Bamp , bamp ! " professor b: Small shocks postdoc a: Yeah . Oh grad h: OK , disk backup , et cetera ? I spoke with Dave Johnson about putting all the Meeting Recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said " yeah , you could do that if you want " but he thought it was a bad idea . In fact what he said is doing the manual one , doing NW archive to copy it is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . grad h: And so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: Well I guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gonna if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gonna burden things in the incremental backups . But he said that that we sh shouldn't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably OK . professor b: Really ? grad h: And , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and recording meetings . professor b: So I guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: Things that are recreatable easily and also Yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: Well I was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had phd e: I thought you guys were gonna burn C Ds ? grad h: unfortunately we could burn C Ds but first of all it 's a pain . grad h: Because you have to copy it down to the PC and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . And second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press don't last . grad h: So I think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . Can I add one top topic ? We have time ? I wanted to ask , I know that that Thilo you were , bringing the Channeltrans interface onto the Windows machine ? And I wanted to know is th phd d: Yeah it 's it Basically it 's done , postdoc a: It 's all done ? That 's g wonderful . grad h: Yes , since Tcl - TK runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: Yeah it Yeah , it was just a problem with the Snack version and the Transcriber version but it 's solved . Does this mean that the that this could be por ported to a Think - Pad note or some other type of phd d: Yeah , basically I did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: Wonderful . CrossPads ? CrossPads ? grad h: got an email from James Landay who basically said " if you 're not using them , could you return them ? " So he said he doesn't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: Once ? grad h: We we used them a couple times , postdoc a: phd f: Them ? There 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: Yeah . professor b: But grad h: My opinion on it is , first , I never take notes anyway so I 'm not gonna use it , and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: And I have so my my feeling on it is that I think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . On the other hand , I the down side for me was that I think the pen is really noisy . And I and I don't know if it 's audible on the but I I sort of thought that was a disadvantage . I do take notes , I could be taking notes on these things and I guess the plus with the CrossPads would be the time markings but I don't know . phd d: what is a CrossPad ? professor b: So it 's it 's it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad h: And then you can download it and they have OCR and searching and all sorts of things . grad h: But I don't take notes , professor b: And one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? And I think that was one of the things , phd d: Yeah . We 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . And then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: Yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was It 's phd g: grad h: Yeah that 's right . postdoc a: u but I guess the the other thing I 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing I wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: Oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: Because that 's summary . phd g: I think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: Summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the Well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wanna make an X and you don't wanna take notes and you 're you just wanna phd f: Doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you don't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a X and But in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . Also with I was thinking and I know Morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wanna let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wanna distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an X near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . I know we haven't been using it but I w I can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: Right . professor b: I guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . But then you don't you don't have the time reference that you 'd have if you had it live . And you don't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: Yeah . phd f: How do you synchronize the time in the CrossPad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the CrossPads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: grad h: You know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: Well when when I d grad h: and so you postdoc a: OK . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wanna do anything with this information . phd e: Why grad h: And so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: There is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: There is an alternative , it 's still , there 's you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it doesn't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . You c , I when I when I did it I synchronized it by voice , by whispering " one , two , three , four " onto the microphone grad h: . grad h: Well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: Right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: Yeah , it 's transcribed . phd g: Well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? Would h is there a big cau grad h: We can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but I it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: Well one thing that we might try is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe EDU is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . professor b: part of the reason I think part of the reason that Adam was so interested in the SpeechCorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: Yep . professor b: and so forth so and and Jane is more into it but eh you know I don't know if you wanna really do do this all the time so I think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . The p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to routinely use it , it just hasn't happened anyway . But maybe if we can get a person to phd g: Yeah I don't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wanna make a note of , like what Jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: Well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a PDA with a wireless card . And and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the Linux server and phd g: So what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , if you 're not worried about grad h: Buttons . phd g: You 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: Well well you have a PDA and may and you could have the same sort of X interface or whatever , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd e: if if all you really wanted was you didn't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a PDA with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . grad h: for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: M right . grad h: right ? You have the phd g: I don't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but I 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: I like this PDA idea . professor b: where like one one button was " - oh " and then another button was " that 's great " and another button " that 's f " phd g: Or like this is my " I 'm supposed to do this " kind of button , postdoc a: Yeah . phd g: Yeah something like that or postdoc a: And then grad h: I think the CrossPad idea is a good one . grad h: It 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . that 's part of the reason why it hasn't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: Yeah . grad h: and postdoc a: But it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: W postdoc a: doesn't it ? grad h: Well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: But , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it can't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: No , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: OK . postdoc a: I I guess what I 'm thinking is that the PDA solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a professor b: Right . You don't have to phd e: The transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: Oh , nicely put . phd g: Well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their P D As to the meeting eventually , right ? That 's why we have this little I don't know what I don't wanna cause more work for anyone but I can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we don't have to return it and we can keep it for a year I don't know . grad h: Well w we don't we certainly don't have to return it , as I said . All all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . The point is that we haven't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: So we have no but by I I would suggest you return one . phd g: We c professor b: We have some aspirations of using them phd g: One would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: Maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: Maybe Jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: Well , I 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: Yeah , yeah . phd g: Jeremy 's gonna be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but I think it should be cool , professor b: Yeah . phd g: You 're you 're gonna tease me ? grad h: Oh , equipment . grad h: And then at the same time I 'll probably rewire the room as per Jane 's suggestion so that the first N channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next N are far - field . professor b: You know what he means but isn't that funny sounding ? " We ordered more wireless . " It 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: I just it 's sort of a anachronism , it 's like It 's great . professor b: there 's there 's all this stuff going on between Andreas and and and Dave and Chuck and others with various kinds of runs recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . grad h: So just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: This is Yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: See all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: Oh . grad h: Should we do simultaneous ? phd g: Well , I 'm just thinking , are you gonna try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: Yeah . phd g: You have to plug your ears , by the way Eric , grad h: Well I have to , phd d: You don't have to

To ensure accurate recording of participants' locations and prevent unintended audio leakage, Grad G proposed the inclusion of seat information in key files. This would aid in identifying the source of voices picked up by other microphones. Additionally, Grad G suggested implementing a convenient bleeping feature for participants during the meeting. While a synchronized bleeping system would require infrastructure, a faster alternative could be explored. The postdoc agreed that collecting digital notes during the meeting was beneficial in theory, but expressed concerns about the added noise to the microphone. Instead, the postdoc proposed having transcribers take notes after the meeting. Overall, both Grad G and the postdoc recognized the value of notes in generating summaries.

What were the thoughts of Grad G and the Postdoc on meeting data quality and collecting notes and related data with meetings?

professor b: OK , so We we had a meeting with , with Hynek , in in which , Sunil and Stephane , summarized where they were and and , talked about where we were gonna go . phd e: D did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: Oh , yeah . professor b: What was the update ? phd a: What was the update ? So there is th then the all the new features that go in . These are the phd e: Is the , the CVS mechanism working well ? phd a: Yeah . phd e: Are are people , up at OGI grabbing code , via that ? phd d: I don't think I don't think phd e: Or ? phd a: I don't know if they use it , but . phd d: Yeah , I I don't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . professor b: I think it more likely that what it means is that when Sunil is up there he will grab it . professor b: But what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , Pratibha will come back from from , the east coast . professor b: And , and and I guess actually , after Eurospeech for a little bit , he 'll go up there too . So , actually everybody who 's working on it will be up there for at least a little while . phd e: So has Has anybody tried remotely accessing the CVS using , SSH ? professor b: Yeah . phd a: I don't know if Hari did that or You d phd d: I can actually do it today . , I can just log into phd e: Have you tried it yet ? phd d: No , I didn't . phd a: Actually I I tried wh while when I installed the repository , I tried from Belgium . phd a: I logged in there and I tried to import phd e: Yeah ? It worked good ? phd a: Yeah , it works . phd e: Oh , good ! phd a: But it 's So , right now it 's the mechanism with SSH . phd e: Great ! phd a: I don't s I didn't set up You can also set up a CVS server on a new port . phd e: right ? phd a: But I didn't do that because I was not sure about security problems . I I would have to phd e: So w when you came in from Belgian Belgium , using SSH , was it asking you for your own password into ICSI ? So if yo you can only do that if you have an account at ICSI ? phd a: Right . phd e: Cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous CVS right ? phd a: Yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a CVS server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: So the anonymous mechanism phd a: You can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . Because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous CVS and I 'm just wondering , for our transcripts we may want to do that . professor b: Yeah , for this stuff I don't think we 're quite up to that . So , phd e: What 's new ? professor b: Well , I think maybe the thing to me might be I me I 'm sure you 've just been working on on , details of that since the meeting , right ? And so phd a: Mmm , since the meeting , well , I I 've been I 've been train training a new VAD and a new feature net . professor b: But I guess maybe the thing since you weren't yo you guys weren't at that that meeting , might be just just to , sort of recap , the the conclusions of the meeting . Cuz that was sort of , we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: - huh . professor b: Since he 's going out of town like now , and I 'm going out town in a couple weeks , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: professor b: And , and what do we freeze ? And , you know , what do we ? So , . So then there 's something central and there aren't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . professor b: and then within that , I guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , a particular way , and decide on what things are gonna be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . So we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . phd e: Are you gonna use which of the two techniques ? phd a: So finally it 's it 's , Wiener filtering on FFT bins . And it uses , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . And after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty FFT bins . And , phd e: So this is on the , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: Yeah , yeah . phd e: This is phd a: It was professor b: This this smoothing is done on the estimate , of what you 're going to subtract ? Or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: Yeah . So we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd a: So professor b: Actually , let me int eh , Dave isn't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . This module , in principle , i , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . , well you don't I guess you don't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: We we do not fo professor b: but you could . phd a: Well well , we do , but we don't don't re - synthesize . In in the program we don't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . professor b: But you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . professor b: Yeah , I gu I guess my point is that , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . But for the real situation , problem is , is that you don't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . So in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . And , generate new files or whatever , and and , and then do the reverberation part . He 's , e phd e: I guess he 's busy with professor b: Yeah , prelims , right . professor b: but but , you know , that 'll , it 's clear that we , we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we can't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . And that 's , in the past we 've looked at , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , and additive noise , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . And we have , the , LDA stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . i i There 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . But now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . And , so Dave has something which , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . So we have to start Since any almost any real situation is gonna have , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . professor b: So , So there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: Yeah , well , the , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: So that 's again , that that 's the Wiener filtering , followed by , that 's done at the FFT level . And then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: Then the LDA filter , professor b: LDA filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: And then downsample , phd a: DCT , professor b: DCT , phd a: then , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . phd a: And finally frame dropping , which , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . And the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . So that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . So the things that we , I guess we sort of , There 's there 's some , neat ideas for V A So , in I think there 's sort of like There 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . There 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . But structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , are are gonna need to get worked on seriously are , a a significantly better VAD , putting the neural net on , which , you know , we haven't been doing anything with , the , neural net at the end there , and , the , opening up the second front . phd e: The other half of the channel ? professor b: Yeah , yeah , cuz we we have we have , half the the , data rate that they allow . phd e: That what you mean ? professor b: And , so the initial thing which came from , the meeting that we had down south was , that , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . We probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: phd e: So if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gonna freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: It , phd e: In terms of ranking ? phd a: Ri - right now it 's second . professor b: Although you you know , you haven't tested it actually on the German and Danish , have you ? phd a: No , we didn't . phd e: So on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: Yeah . Would it But When you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , that the best system before got on , also without German and Danish ? phd a: Yeah , yeah . professor b: Well ranking didn't before , but I 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the German and Danish , phd a: Yeah . phd e: Where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: Oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . And so , I guess by that we were third , but , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: We 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: See , no I think it 's also institutional , isn't it ? phd e: Still institutionally second ? professor b: Right ? , I think both of their systems probably phd a: we are between their two systems . professor b: And and , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . , one could argue about the LDA and so forth but I I think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . But what what phd e: So how did they fill up this all these these bits ? , if we 're u professor b: why are we using half ? Well , so you could you c phd e: Yeah . Or how are they using more than half , I guess maybe is what I professor b: Yeah , so I I think , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if I 'm wrong , but I I think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . And they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . phd e: So th So professor b: So that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . professor b: So phd e: So what if you didn't So do you explicitly downsample then ? Do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: Yeah . phd e: And what if we didn't do that ? Would we get worse performance ? phd a: Yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: I think it doesn't affect it , does it ? phd e: I see . So I think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . professor b: And , so I you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream , helps a lot . So that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though I 'm saying I think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . And you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , " oh , yeah , I understand " , is is very helpful . phd e: So you would you 're You 're thinking to put the , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: Well , that 's a question . It looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , remove the noise , and , phd e: Cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: Yeah . There 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . phd d: Well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the , the frame . professor b: If you do or don't normalize ? phd d: If yo if you don't normalize and if if you don't normalize . And then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , " OK , this much effect " , you don't want to change six things and then see what happens . And then saying , oh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . So , I would think you would wanna have some baseline that says , " OK , we don't normalize , this is what we get " , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . phd e: So this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: No , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: Para professor b: We 're not talking about computation time here . grad c: So with this , new stream would you train up a VAD on both both features , somehow ? phd d: No , I guess the VAD has its own set of features . that 's phd d: which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . phd a: And there is also the idea of using TRAPS , maybe , for the VAD , which , phd d: Yeah , that 's also phd a: Well , Pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at IBM , that it 's a good idea . grad c: Would would that fit on the handset , or ? Oh ! phd a: I have no idea . phd d: Well , it has t the th phd a: It would have to fit but Yeah . And so I guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based TRAPS , and and how big are they ? So that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: Cuz she also does the , the correlation - based , TRAPS , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: Right . professor b: Or a simple neural net , right ? , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . professor b: And so , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . professor b: So , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? Do you need to have an added layer or something ? In which case , potentially , you know , it could be big . phd e: So the meeting with Hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gonna freeze in this system ? Is that ? Or was there ? Were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: What to freeze and then what to do after we froze . And like I was saying , I think the you know , the basic directions are , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , the second stream . phd d: So , I 'll , I 'll actually after the meeting I 'll add the second stream to the VAD and maybe I 'll start with the feature net in that case . It 's like , you 're looking at the VAD , right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: OK , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: Yeah . But , yeah , I think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . phd e: What about the , the new part of the evaluation , the , Wall Street Journal part ? professor b: Right . Well you you may be called upon to help , on account of , all the work in this stuff here has been , with small vocabulary . So what how is the , interaction supposed to happen ? , I remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , people 's features and then running them or they were gonna give the system out or phd d: Yeah . professor b: Do we already have it ? phd d: Yeah , th I I guess it 's almost ready . phd e: So we 'll have to grab this over CVS or something ? phd d: It - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . professor b: Cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , all the digit stuff , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: OK . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , tweak Joe about or whatever , phd e: Sure . professor b: S phd d: So I 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . So I phd e: And it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: I I think they are still , tuning something on that . So they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: Are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? Or ? phd d: w I guess there is , time during which people are gonna make suggestions . phd d: So these sugges these this , period during which people are gonna make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: Yeah , so I th th certainly the thing that I would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . professor b: in which case , H Hari or Hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: And we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: Yes . , some of that may be , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing . Yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , it 's starting to seem to me now like November fifteenth is right around the corner . And , if they haven't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gonna be for this , when " deciding " is not just somebody deciding . , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . phd e: So wha what 's the significance of November fifteenth ? professor b: That 's when the evaluation is . So , yeah , so after But , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . But , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , I 'm I 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . There 's there 's not anybody OGI currently who 's who 's , working with this and and phd e: Is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: I I think it 's it 's , it depends how badly you do . phd d: b phd e: This is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: Yeah . Well , it 's it 's Conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if I 'm wrong , but my impression is that , they want it as a double check . That you haven't come across you haven't invented features which are actually gonna do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . professor b: the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: Seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . Y you passed the threshold or you didn't pass the threshold , and they shouldn't even care about what the score is . , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: Yeah . professor b: right ? It 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . So you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . So again , if you 're if you get If it doesn't help you much , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , you know , it may not hurt you that much . professor b: But if it if you don't if it doesn't help you much at all , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , if their strategies do , then phd e: So is this , ? , Guenter was putting a bunch of Wall Street Journal data on our disks . phd e: So that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: I I guess , I 'm not sure . professor b: No , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the H M Ms and and data for testing it . phd e: I just professor b: So I wouldn't So it it 's phd e: OK . But I think it 's trained on clean and Is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: The Wall Street ? professor b: Yeah . It 's training on a range between ten and twenty DB , I think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: It 's , It 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: and So the noise is There is a range of different noises also which are selected randomly and added randomly , to the files . When did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: I guess I guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: Oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: Yeah , it 's already there . phd e: OK , phd d: But they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , I think . phd d: So I guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . grad c: Is this their , SVM recognizer ? phd d: No , it 's just a straightforward . professor b: You know , their their They have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the SVM is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . phd d: Yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . phd e: So , just so that I understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? Is that the idea ? phd d: I I I think yeah , I I guess something like that . phd d: is what Do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then Just , phd e: I see . Somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju Yeah , I th I think . In fact , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable You know Joe , right ? Yeah . professor b: Just to sort of ask him about the issue of , different features having different kinds of , scaling characteristics and so on . So that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: OK . phd d: So sh shall we , like , add Chuck also to the mailing lists ? It may be better , in that case if he 's going to professor b: Yeah . phd d: Yeah , I guess maybe Hari or Hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to Joe . phd d: Well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: I I know him really well . professor b: Do you have Hari 's , ? phd e: I have Hari 's professor b: Yeah , so maybe just CC Hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , you know , phd e: OK . Why don't you just ask Joe but CC Hari , and then in the note say , " Hari , hopefully this is OK with you " . professor b: That way you can get started asking Joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and Yeah . phd d: And there is an , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , between these people among these people . phd d: So , like like , it 's , like professor b: Have you thought about how long would be , most useful for you to go up to OGI ? phd a: I don't know , . professor b: Oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: I professor b: it 's to you . professor b: I ju you guys are Well , y anyway , you don't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . And , I was looking at some of the work that , Sangita was doing on these TRAPS things . So she has , she has temporal patterns for , a certain set of phonemes , from from TIMIT , right ? the most common phonemes . , so she has , a TRAP for each one of the phonemes , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . And , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , is a clustering algorithm that , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters , corresponding to the number of data , patterns that you have in the data . phd e: And then you can pick , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: Right , usually it 's when , when the sol similarity measures , don't go down as much . And what she found was , sh , was there were five broad , broad categories , corresponding to , things like , fricatives and , vocalic , and , stops . , and , I was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these TRAPS and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , arbitrary windows in time , of varying length , and cluster those . grad c: And I 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , OK , thi this is a transition , this is a relatively stable stable point . grad c: and I 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , intermediate categories that , I 'll later classify . F , I 'm professor b: Cuz that 's what you 're gonna be using , right ? grad c: Yeah , yeah . I I haven't exactly figured out , the exact details for that but , the the representation of the data that I was thinking of , was using , critical band , energies , over different lengths of time . professor b: Yeah , it seems somehow that needs th , there 's a couple things that I wonder about with this . professor b: if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . , and then the other thing , is that I wonder about with it , and and don't take this in the wrong way , like I I know what I 'm doing or anything , grad c: Right . professor b: the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , unsupervised nearness of things , is actually better . professor b: and I don't know if that , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this isn't right , but it 'd be something I 'd be concerned about . Because , for instance , you can imagine , i i if you remember from from , from your your quals , John Ohala saying that , " buh " and " puh " differed , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . professor b: So , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . And yet , I would gue I would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , pfft , screwing up on this distinction . professor b: So , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . And the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they don't work as well as we 'd like . And since they sort of work , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , " how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? " grad c: professor b: Boy , I bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: professor b: So these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . So , what are we bringing to the party ? , in fact what we wanna do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , is better at distinguishing between , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . , I understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wanna have categories that , that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . But I think it 's also essential that you wanna look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , categories that , can clarify these confusions . professor b: So , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . Y y this is more like , you know , how does LDA differ from PCA ? , they 're the same sort of thing . professor b: But , you know and and , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . , well W actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: I guess I don't I don't , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which I think is right , with the way I 've been looking at it . But it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , is bottom - up . phd e: And and so I guess what I don't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: Well , here 's a here 's a , Here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , what do you really , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . Right ? Because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it doesn't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . professor b: So whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's gotta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: Right . professor b: right ? phd e: So the question is , how far down ? professor b: And phd e: We could stop at words , but we don't , right ? We go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: Right , but I me I I think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . You know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , metric of of goodness , i if our phd e: professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , maybe we should be looking at words . professor b: for for for very nice , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , that 's really , d w In many applications you wanna go further . You wanna go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . And and phd e: Yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you can't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? So you have to have some smaller set that you can use , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . But the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? So when you look at conversational speech , for example , you don't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . See , so her here 's maybe where If the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , then maybe it doesn't matter that we can't have enough phd e: professor b: what you wanna do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . professor b: And and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: Right . In some ways it 's really not a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . professor b: so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: Right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: - huh . professor b: and yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of don't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . professor b: You know , so that 's , wh what I called a useless comments because I 'm not really telling you how to do it . But , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: No , but I think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have , you know , categories . If you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters professor b: Now , that being said , I think that that if you have something that is , i Once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . professor b: If you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like TIMIT , then , you know , i i you the phones are gonna be right , actually , for the most part . Yeah , professor b: So so , it doesn't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . professor b: if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , the phones are , you know , it 's gonna be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , And it won't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: Mmm . So it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it doesn't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it doesn't really hurt , and I 'm not sure how how to build that in . professor b: Yeah , I guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results I think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , you know , between words if you want or or or , even phones in in in in read speech , say , when there is noise . You know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? Or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: professor b: I know one thing that happens is that you you you , you lose the , low energy phones . And if that if that is if it , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . But , I don't know , I w I would I would guess that you 'd grad c: Anyway , that 's phd e: I think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . phd e: You know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . And so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: but , even if you do , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really isn't an any information like that , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , than the machines are . If we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there

The team discussed the possibility of setting up a CVS server on a new port to enable remote access. However, they were unsure about the password mechanism required for this setup. They considered using an anonymous CVS to store transcripts, as it relied on open source software. The team also inquired about OGI's use of CVS to access the code and discovered that they were not using it. It was mentioned that no one at OGI was currently working on Aurora, but they were expecting Sunil to start working on it once he returned.

Summarize the team's discussion on CVS security and the relationship between OGI and CVS.

We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey? kirsty williams am: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair—I hope you'll be pleased to hear this—that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been? kirsty williams am: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage—and we always encourage—local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived? kirsty williams am: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors' reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. steve davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process—it gives it greater push and support around it. kirsty williams am: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. And because of the word 'toolkit'—the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist, 'Just do this and check list'. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that 'toolkit' gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. lynne neagle am: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Siân Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Siân. suzy davies am: Yes, the resource, thank you—about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like? kirsty williams am: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. suzy davies am: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all. steve davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince—and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them—that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box, 'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability—sometimes, the practitioners are like, 'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.' And I think that's been a part of the constant—not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do. lynne neagle am: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets? kirsty williams am: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that—you know—is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines—you know, 'We did this and it's resulted in that'—given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say, 'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that? kirsty williams am: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. So, our school improvement service—it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. huw irranca-davies am: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying 'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'? kirsty williams am: So, that system has evolved over time. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like 'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments—the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that—. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system—'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.' But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough—there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right? kirsty williams am: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right—absolutely right. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. huw irranca-davies am: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools? kirsty williams am: That's it—you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities' and school improvement services' knowledge about their schools. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve—more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school—and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government—as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school—requiring special measures or urgent improvement—and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment, 'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying—Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying, 'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?' It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it—that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually—I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. Steve, I don't know— steve davies: I think your important point is about, 'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?' And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness—not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again? kirsty williams am: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early—not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big, 'We must do something' and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense? lynne neagle am: I've got a couple of supplementaries on—. Sorry? kirsty williams am: Does that make sense? lynne neagle am: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Siân. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering—. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category—. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are— suzy davies am: That they don't know how to do this. kirsty williams am: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve—because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say, 'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.' And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities. sian gwenllian am: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward? kirsty williams am: I think, Siân, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around 'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?' You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority—those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account—have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools—11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales? kirsty williams am: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right—we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result—hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. steve davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups—they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues—leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12, 18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely—. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia—three words in it. Why haven't you done it? kirsty williams am: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that— hefin david am: It was only three words. kirsty williams am: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services—scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities. kirsty williams am: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective? kirsty williams am: The school improvement services? hefin david am: The four consortia. kirsty williams am: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly—and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that—and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate? kirsty williams am: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery. hefin david am: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do? kirsty williams am: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised. hefin david am: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working? kirsty williams am: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand—not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision. hefin david am: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances— hefin david am: What does that mean, though, 'seeking assurances'? kirsty williams am: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also. hefin david am: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then. kirsty williams am: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. hefin david am: Steve, did you want to say something? steve davies: Obviously—[Inaudible.]—that point. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand? kirsty williams am: So, that is the current model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way. hefin david am: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document— 'The implementation of this model will change over time'— is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view? steve davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. hefin david am: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier. hefin david am: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be? kirsty williams am: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. hefin david am: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about? steve davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago—just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum—that's a key part of it. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service—is it heading in that direction? kirsty williams am: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. sian gwenllian am: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense? kirsty williams am: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. sian gwenllian am: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends? kirsty williams am: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures—you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add. steve davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at—things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs—for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level—we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools. kirsty williams am: So, if we look at—level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children— sian gwenllian am: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures—I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge—whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children—and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals—were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison. sian gwenllian am: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis? kirsty williams am: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says, 'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.' That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think, 'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else? kirsty williams am: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data—I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. steve davies: Can I, very briefly—? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers. [Laughter.] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children—where they really are within that system. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children. suzy davies am: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research—I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation? kirsty williams am: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years. suzy davies am: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this £100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated? steve davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year. steve davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report—because it is an extensive report—to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into. kirsty williams am: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because—. Exams are important—of course they are, qualifications are important—but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important. lynne neagle am: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then? suzy davies am: In a whole-school approach. kirsty williams am: I absolutely—and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me. suzy davies am: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it? kirsty williams am: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing. suzy davies am: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time? kirsty williams am: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of 'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes? kirsty williams am: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says, 'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to—.' We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA. sian gwenllian am: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be. sian gwenllian am: But, this is despite the fact that there is £475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. kirsty williams am: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9.4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. sian gwenllian am: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon? kirsty williams am: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some £10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children—not FSM children; the national average for all children. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. lynne neagle am: Siân, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid. sian gwenllian am: Sorry? lynne neagle am: This is going to have to be the last question. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019? kirsty williams am: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.<doc-sep>Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. sian thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? meilyr rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions—we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically—a lot of funding is being spent on that—improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. llyr gruffydd am: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring—I think that's the term that they use—in terms of who is eligible. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I’m fairly comfortable. There is a specific question—I don’t know if you are going to ask this—regarding more able and talented pupils. meilyr rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. One of them is that there’s still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. llyr gruffydd am: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? meilyr rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. john griffiths am: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? mark reckless am: Yes. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask—? Would you look at one area regarding schools' engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? meilyr rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. Paul Flynn, I think, did the—no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework—looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. mark reckless am: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? meilyr rowlands: Yes, we've done that. claire morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. llyr gruffydd am: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? meilyr rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? meilyr rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership—that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation—that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. michelle brown am: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? meilyr rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? meilyr rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research—the Sutton Trust toolkit—and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of—the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils—all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools—the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students—are the ones that do that most effectively. claire morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils' skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? meilyr rowlands: Yes. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4—to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term—because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible—what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. michelle brown am: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? meilyr rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? michelle brown am: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? meilyr rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. hefin david am: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? meilyr rowlands: 'Crisis' is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. hefin david am: Of those students at key stage 4, 35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? meilyr rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. meilyr rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention— hefin david am: So, what—? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? meilyr rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. hefin david am: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? meilyr rowlands: Okay. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. claire morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. hefin david am: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? claire morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. hefin david am: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? claire morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. But there's also— hefin david am: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. hefin david am: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? claire morgan: I think it has the potential to. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Some of the answers that you're giving—they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. meilyr rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. hefin david am: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? meilyr rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say, 'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed—it's because they do that. michelle brown am: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? meilyr rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. meilyr rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? meilyr rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Do you think there hasn't been any—? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? meilyr rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging—the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying, 'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. darren millar am: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? meilyr rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? meilyr rowlands: I think what we found—we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. simon brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful— julie morgan am: For these particular groups? simon brown: Yes. And, as Claire said—she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. julie morgan am: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? claire morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? meilyr rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs—some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. julie morgan am: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on— julie morgan am: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? meilyr rowlands: I think there is some data available. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation—exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of— meilyr rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. julie morgan am: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. john griffiths am: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. mark reckless am: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant—the pupil deprivation grant—principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? meilyr rowlands: I think transition is appropriate—that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. mark reckless am: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. meilyr rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. mark reckless am: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the 'PLASS' data—. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the 'PLASS' description and what information system that that refers to? meilyr rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC—the pupil level annual school census—and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not—whether any children are adopted—isn't picked up in the data at the moment. mark reckless am: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? john griffiths am: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. meilyr rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. mark reckless am: Yes, I agree—I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? meilyr rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? meilyr rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. mark reckless am: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? meilyr rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. mark reckless am: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? meilyr rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. mark reckless am: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? meilyr rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. mark reckless am: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? meilyr rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. john griffiths am: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? meilyr rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations—of literacy and numeracy—moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. llyr gruffydd am: So, you think—and I'd agree—that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? meilyr rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers—there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system—I'm trying to avoid saying 'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole—have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that—all of those aspects need to be changed and improved—but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers—. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. llyr gruffydd am: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? meilyr rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually—? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. meilyr rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps 'revolutionary' is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. llyr gruffydd am: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. meilyr rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that— llyr gruffydd am: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. meilyr rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? meilyr rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. llyr gruffydd am: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? meilyr rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. mark reckless am: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? meilyr rowlands: Yes. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. But if you were to ask, 'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. mark reckless am: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? meilyr rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare—I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think—you know, where we're better than another country. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? meilyr rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. mark reckless am: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? meilyr rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils' work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. mark reckless am: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools—this relates to the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough—well, we say there wasn't enough training—or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. john griffiths am: Darren—is it on this? darren millar am: Yes, it is on this. , one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government—all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? meilyr rowlands: It's a good question. , specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase—I can't remember what it's called now—excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. There's one for mathematics—a national network for excellence in mathematics—there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. mark reckless am: When you say that— john griffiths am: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall—. meilyr rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. claire morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning—often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. mark reckless am: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? meilyr rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. mark reckless am: Do you support that policy? meilyr rowlands: Well, we do, actually. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like 'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? meilyr rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. mark reckless am: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? meilyr rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? meilyr rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools—that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. john griffiths am: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage—I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people—you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. john griffiths am: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? meilyr rowlands: Absolutely, yes. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment—and has been for some time—about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? meilyr rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children—you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. john griffiths am: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. meilyr rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? meilyr rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10—nearly three quarters—of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? meilyr rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. john griffiths am: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage—we haven't got a great deal of time left—if that's okay. julie morgan am: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools—whether you've got any views on that. meilyr rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. meilyr rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have—. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? meilyr rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS—that's education other than at school. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools—that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a  good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? meilyr rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. simon brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the 'good' or 'better'—as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better—has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is 'good' or 'better' in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. llyr gruffydd am: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? simon brown: But I think one sector that—. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning— llyr gruffydd am: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. As we said in the annual report, standards are 'good' or 'better' in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress—monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. llyr gruffydd am: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves,  or to what extent can Government and others do things? simon brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET—we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there—there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. john griffiths am: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. hefin david am: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? simon brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. hefin david am: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction—from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. simon brown: I'm sorry? hefin david am: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. hefin david am: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement—in the report. hefin david am: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement—is the statement that was made in the report. simon brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership—both political and officer-led leadership—and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. simon brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was—. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director—. The name of the course is the 'Welsh future leaders in education' course and 26 people have just finished that—aspiring directors. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. hefin david am: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context—I think that was the statement in the report—in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? simon brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that—. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together—for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities—from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? simon brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? simon brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers 'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting

Kirsty expressed the importance of understanding how Neath Port Talbot would support schools and teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW. She sought clarification on how this support would be provided outside of the organization and how the schools and students in Neath Port Talbot would be protected from any disadvantages. Kirsty emphasized the need for assurances from Neath Port Talbot and expressed disappointment in not yet receiving their plans. Claire Morgan suggested that headteachers in the best schools should see themselves as community leaders and engage directly with disadvantaged families and underachieving children. PDG funding would be used to appoint staff for this purpose. Meilyr Rowlands acknowledged the existing gap between primary and secondary schools, with a higher percentage of primary schools performing well compared to secondary schools. He attributed this gap to transitions between different stages of education. In conclusion, Meilyr Rowlands proposed considering various factors to better understand the identified gap.

What is the opinion and role of the PDG in intervening in Neath Port Talbot and ERW to address the issue of safeguarding their schools? Additionally, what was the PDG's involvement in working with families? Lastly, how did the rate of improvement differ between the primary and secondary sectors?

professor c: So , grad f: so I wanted to discuss digits briefly , but that won't take too long . OK , agenda items , we have digits , What else we got ? phd a: New version of the presegmentation . postdoc b: do we wanna say something about the , an update of the , transcript ? phd g: Yeah , why don't you summarize the professor c: Update on transcripts . phd g: And I guess that includes some the filtering for the , the ASI refs , too . professor c: Filtering for what ? phd g: For the references that we need to go from the the fancy transcripts to the sort of brain - dead . postdoc b: It 'll it 'll be basically it 'll be a re - cap of a meeting that we had jointly this morning . OK well , the , w as you can see from the numbers on the digits we 're almost done . You know , someone fills out the form and then they 're not at the meeting and so it 's blank . And so , once we 're it 's done it would be very nice to train up a recognizer and actually start working with this data . phd d: So we 'll have a corpus that 's the size of TI - digits ? grad f: And so One particular test set of TI - digits . grad f: So , I I extracted , Ther - there was a file sitting around which people have used here as a test set . It had been randomized and so on phd d: grad f: and that 's just what I used to generate the order . professor c: So , I 'm impressed by what we could do , Is take the standard training set for TI - digits , train up with whatever , you know , great features we think we have , for instance , and then test on this test set . grad f: professor c: And presumably it should do reasonably well on that , and then , presumably , we should go to the distant mike , and it should do poorly . professor c: And then we should get really smart over the next year or two , and it that should get better . grad f: so that the reason it 's not just a transcript is that there 're false starts , and misreads , and miscues and things like that . And so I have a set of scripts and X Waves where you just select the portion , hit R , it tells you what the next one should be , and you just look for that . You know , so it it 'll put on the screen , " The next set is six nine , nine two two " . And you find that , and , hit the key and it records it in a file in a particular format . professor c: So is this grad f: And so the the question is , should we have the transcribers do that or should we just do it ? Well , some of us . I 've been do I 've done , eight meetings , something like that , just by hand . professor c: what what do you think ? postdoc b: My feeling is that we discussed this right before coffee and I think it 's a it 's a fine idea partly because , it 's not un unrelated to their present skill set , but it will add , for them , an extra dimension , it might be an interesting break for them . And also it is contributing to the , c composition of the transcript cuz we can incorporate those numbers directly and it 'll be a more complete transcript . grad f: There is there is professor c: So you think it 's fine to have the transcribers do it ? postdoc b: grad f: There 's one other small bit , which is just entering the information which at s which is at the top of this form , onto the computer , to go along with the where the digits are recorded automatically . grad f: And so it 's just , you know , typing in name , times time , date , and so on . , which again either they can do , but it is , you know , firing up an editor , or , again , I can do . postdoc b: And , that , you know , I 'm not , that that one I 'm not so sure if it 's into the the , things that , I , wanted to use the hours for , because the , the time that they 'd be spending doing that they wouldn't be able to be putting more words on . postdoc b: But that 's really your choice , it 's your phd d: So are these two separate tasks that can happen ? Or do they have to happen at the same time before grad f: No they don't have this you have to enter the data before , you do the second task , but they don't have to happen at the same time . grad f: So it 's it 's just I have a file whi which has this information on it , and then when you start using my scripts , for extracting the times , it adds the times at the bottom of the file . And so , it 's easy to create the files and leave them blank , and so actually we could do it in either order . grad f: it 's it 's sort of nice to have the same person do it just as a double - check , to make sure you 're entering for the right person . Yeah just by way of , a , order of magnitude , we 've been working with this Aurora , data set . And , the best score , on the , nicest part of the data , that is , where you 've got training and test set that are basically the same kinds of noise and so forth , is about , I think the best score was something like five percent , error , per digit . So So the The point there , and this is car noise , things , but but real real situation , phd d: professor c: well , " real " , the there 's one microphone that 's close , that they have as as this sort of thing , close versus distant . but in a car , instead of instead of having a projector noise it 's it 's car noise . So , that 's that 's an indication , that was with , many sites competing , and this was the very best score and so forth , so . More typical numbers like phd d: Although the models weren't , that good , right ? , the models are pretty crappy ? professor c: You 're right . I think that we could have done better on the models , but the thing is that we got this this is the kind of typical number , for all of the , things in this task , all of the , languages . Anyway , just an indication once you get into this kind of realm even if you 're looking at connected digits it can be pretty hard . phd d: How did we do on the TI - digits ? grad f: Well the prosodics are so much different s it 's gonna be , strange . grad f: So I 'm I 'm not sure how much of effect that will have . phd d: H how do phd g: What do you mean , the prosodics ? grad f: just what we were talking about with grouping . That with these , the grouping , there 's no grouping at all , and so it 's just the only sort of discontinuity you have is at the beginning and the end . phd g: So what are they doing in Aurora , are they reading actual phone numbers , grad f: Aurora I don't know . phd g: or , a a digit at a time , or ? professor c: I 'm not sure how phd g: Cuz it 's professor c: no , no it 's connected it 's connected , digits , phd g: Connected . phd g: So there 's also the not just the prosody but the cross the cross - word modeling is probably quite different . phd d: H How grad f: But in TI - digits , they 're reading things like zip codes and phone numbers and things like that , phd g: Right . phd d: do we do on TI - digits ? grad f: so it 's gonna be different . grad f: One and a half percent , two percent , something like that ? professor c: I th no I think we got under a percent , but it was but it 's but . The very best system that I saw in the literature was a point two five percent or something that somebody had at at Bell Labs , or . It s strikes me that there are more each of them is more informative because it 's so , random , grad f: OK . professor c: But I think a lot of systems sort of get half a percent , or three - quarters a percent , grad f: Right . grad f: But that it 's really it 's it 's close - talking mikes , no noise , clean signal , just digits , every everything is good . phd g: It 's like the , single cell , you know , it 's the beginning of life , phd d: Pre - prehistory . grad f: OK , so , what I 'll do then is I 'll go ahead and enter , this data . And then , hand off to Jane , and the transcribers to do the actual extraction of the digits . One question I have that that , we wouldn't know the answer to now but might , do some guessing , but I was talking before about doing some model modeling of arti , marking of articulatory , features , with overlap and so on . The only thing is I 'm a little concerned that maybe the kind of phenomena , in w i i The reason for doing it is because the the argument is that certainly with conversational speech , the stuff that we 've looked at here before , just doing the simple mapping , from , the phone , to the corresponding features that you could look up in a book , isn't right . In fact there 's these overlapping processes where some voicing some up and then some , you know , some nasality is comes in here , and so forth . But , It could be that when we 're reading digits , because it 's it 's for such a limited set , that maybe maybe that phenomenon doesn't occur as much . Di - an anybody ? Do you have any ? Anybody have any opinion about that , postdoc b: and that people might articulate more , and you that might end up with more a closer correspondence . phd d: Sort of less predictability , grad f: That it 's just postdoc b: phd d: and You hafta grad f: It 's a Well Would , this corpus really be the right one to even try that on ? phd g: Well it 's definitely true that , when people are , reading , even if they 're re - reading what , they had said spontaneously , that they have very different patterns . phd g: So the fact that they 're reading , first of all , whether they 're reading in a room of , people , or rea you know , just the fact that they 're reading will make a difference . So , may maybe the thing will be do to take some very small subset , not have a big , program , but take a small set , subset of the conversational speech and a small subset of the digits , and look and and just get a feeling for it . postdoc b: H That could could be an interesting design , too , cuz then you 'd have the com the comparison of the , predictable speech versus the less predictable speech professor c: Cuz I don't think anybody is , I at least , I don't know , of anybody , well , I don't know , the answers . postdoc b: and maybe you 'd find that it worked in , in the , case of the pr of the , non - predictable . phd d: Hafta think about , the particular acoustic features to mark , too , because , some things , they wouldn't be able to mark , like , you know , tense lax . grad f: M I think we can get Ohala in to , give us some advice on that . postdoc b: Also I thought you were thinking of a much more restricted set of features , that professor c: Yeah , but I I I I was , like he said , I was gonna bring John in and ask John what he thought . It should be such that if you , if you , if you had o , all of the features , determined that you that you were ch have chosen , that that would tell you , in the steady - state case , the phone . grad f: Even , I guess with vowels that would be pretty hard , wouldn't it ? To identify actually , you know , which one it is ? postdoc b: It would seem to me that the points of articulation would be m more , g , that 's I think about articulatory features , I think about , points of articulation , which means , rather than vowels . phd d: Points of articulation ? What do you mean ? postdoc b: So , is it , bilabial or dental or is it , you know , palatal . phd g: Well it 's also , there 's , really a difference between , the pronunciation models in the dictionary , and , the pronunciations that people produce . And , so , You get , some of that information from Steve 's work on the on the labeling professor c: Right . That maybe , although I think the meeting context is great , that he has transcriptions that give you the actual phone sequence . And you can go from not from that to the articulatory features , but that would be a better starting point for marking , the gestural features , then , data where you don't have that , because , we you wanna know , both about the way that they 're producing a certain sound , and what kinds of , you know what kinds of , phonemic , differences you get between these , transcribed , sequences and the dictionary ones . professor c: Well you might be right that mi might be the way at getting at , what I was talking about , but the particular reason why I was interested in doing that was because I remember , when that happened , and , John Ohala was over here and he was looking at the spectrograms of the more difficult ones . One you know , one is going from a dictionary pronunciation of something , like , " gonna see you tomorrow " , grad f: And Or " gonta " . phd g: it could be " going to " or " gonna " or " gonta s " you know . And , that it would be nice to have these , intermediate , or these some these reduced pronunciations that those transcribers had marked or to have people mark those as well . phd g: Because , it 's not , that easy to go from the , dictionary , word pronuncia the dictionary phone pronunciation , to the gestural one without this intermediate or a syllable level kind of , representation . grad f: Well I don't think Morgan 's suggesting that we do that , though . professor c: Yeah , I I I 'm jus at the moment of course we 're just talking about what , to provide as a tool for people to do research who have different ideas about how to do it . So for instance , you might have someone who just has a wor has words with states , and has , comes from articulatory gestures to that . But , grad f: But What I 'm imagining is a score - like notation , where each line is a particular feature . grad f: so you would say , you know , it 's voiced through here , and so you have label here , and you have nas nasal here , and , they they could be overlapping in all sorts of bizarre ways that don't correspond to the timing on phones . professor c: this is the kind of reason why I remember when at one of the Switchboard , workshops , that when we talked about doing the transcription project , Dave Talkin said , " can't be done " . professor c: He was he was , what what he meant was that this isn't , you know , a sequence of phones , and when you actually look at Switchboard that 's , not what you see , and , you know . It , grad f: And in in fact the inter - annotator agreement was not that good , right ? On the harder ones ? professor c: yeah it was phd g: It depends how you look at it , and I I understand what you 're saying about this , kind of transcription exactly , professor c: Yeah . phd g: because I 've seen you know , where does the voicing bar start and so forth . phd g: All I 'm saying is that , it is useful to have that the transcription of what was really said , and which syllables were reduced . , if you 're gonna add the features it 's also useful to have some level of representation which is , is a reduced it 's a pronunciation variant , that currently the dictionaries don't give you professor c: phd g: because if you add them to the dictionary and you run recognition , you , you add confusion . phd d: So it would be it would be great if we had , either these kind of , labelings on , the same portion of Switchboard that Steve marked , or , Steve 's type markings on this data , with these . phd g: And Steve 's type is fairly it 's not that slow , I dunno exactly what the , timing was , but . professor c: Yeah u I don't disagree with it the on the only thing is that , What you actually will end en end up with is something , i it 's all compromised , right , so , the string that you end up with isn't , actually , what happened . But it 's it 's the best compromise that a group of people scratching their heads could come up with to describe what happened . And it 's more accurate than the than the dictionary or , if you 've got a pronunciation lexicon that has three or four , grad f: The word . professor c: this might be have been the fifth one that you tr that you pruned or whatever , phd d: So it 's like a continuum . phd g: an and in some places it would fill in , So the kinds of gestural features are not everywhere . phd g: So there are some things that you don't have access to either from your ear or the spectrogram , phd d: phd g: but you know what phone it was and that 's about all you can all you can say . phd g: And then there are other cases where , nasality , voicing phd d: It 's basically just having , multiple levels of of , information and marking , on the signal . grad f: Well the other difference is that the the features , are not synchronous , phd g: Right . phd g: Th - there 'll be no way for you to actually mark what was said completely by features . grad f: Well not with our current system but you could imagine designing a system , that the states were features , rather than phones . phd g: And i if you 're Well , we we 've probably have a separate , discussion of , of whether you can do that . postdoc b: That 's Well , isn't that I thought that was , well but that wasn't that kinda the direction ? grad f: Yeah . postdoc b: I thought professor c: Yeah , so , what , what where this is , I I want would like to have something that 's useful to people other than those who are doing the specific kind of research I have in mind , so it should be something broader . But , The but where I 'm coming from is , we 're coming off of stuff that Larry Saul did with with , John Dalan and Muzim Rahim in which , they , have , a m a multi - band system that is , trained through a combination of gradient learning an and EM , to , estimate , the , value for m for for a particular feature . And this is part of a larger , image that John Dalan has about how the human brain does it in which he 's sort of imagining that , individual frequency channels are coming up with their own estimate , of of these , these kinds of something like this . And the the th this particular image , of how thi how it 's done , is that , then given all of these estimates at that level , there 's a level above it , then which is is making , some kind of sound unit classification such as , you know , phone and and , you know . But that that 's sort of what I was imagining doing , and but it 's still open within that whether you would have an intermediate level in which it was actually phones , or not . , but , Again , I wouldn't wanna , wouldn't want what we we produced to be so , know , local in perspective that it it was matched , what we were thinking of doing one week , And and , and , you know , what you 're saying is absolutely right . That , that if we , can we should put in , another level of , of description there if we 're gonna get into some of this low - level stuff . phd d: Well , you know , if we 're talking about , having the , annotators annotate these kinds of features , it seems like , You know , you The the question is , do they do that on , meeting data ? Or do they do that on , Switchboard ? grad f: That 's what I was saying , postdoc b: W Well it seems like you could do both . postdoc b: I was thinking that it would be interesting , to do it with respect to , parts of Switchboard anyway , in terms of , professor c: postdoc b: partly to see , if you could , generate first guesses at what the articulatory feature would be , based on the phone representation at that lower level . phd d: Well cuz the yeah , and then also , if you did it on Switchboard , you would have , the full continuum of transcriptions . phd d: You 'd have it , from the lowest level , the ac acoustic features , then you 'd have the , you know , the phonetic level that Steve did , postdoc b: phd g: it is telephone band , so , the bandwidth might be phd d: It 'd be a complete , set then . So i we 'll see wha how much we can , get the people to do , and how much money we 'll have and all this sort of thing , phd g: Yeah . phd d: But it it might be good to do what Jane was saying , you know , seed it , with , guesses about what we think the features are , based on , you know , the phone or Steve 's transcriptions or something . grad f: Alright , so based on the phone transcripts they would all be synchronous , but then you could imagine , nudging them here and there . professor c: Well I think what I 'm I 'm a l little behind in what they 're doing , now , and , the stuff they 're doing on Switchboard now . But I think that , Steve and the gang are doing , something with an automatic system first and then doing some adjustment . So that 's probably the right way to go anyway , is to is to start off with an automatic system with a pretty rich pronunciation dictionary that , that , you know , tries , to label it all . postdoc b: So in in our case you 'd think about us s starting with maybe the regular dictionary entry , and then ? Or would we professor c: Well , regular dictionary , this is a pretty rich dictionary . It 's got , got a fair number of pronunciations in it postdoc b: But phd d: Or you could start from the if we were gonna , do the same set , of sentences that Steve had , done , we could start with those transcriptions . phd g: the problem is when you run , if you run a regular dictionary , even if you have variants , in there , which most people don't , you don't always get , out , the actual pronunciations , phd d: Yeah . phd g: so that 's why the human transcriber 's giving you the that pronunciation , postdoc b: Yeah . phd g: and so y they they I thought that they were professor c: Is that what they 're doing ? grad f: They are . professor c: Yeah , so I think that i i we also don't have , we 've got a good start on it , but we don't have a really good , meeting , recorder or recognizer or transcriber or anything yet , so . So , another way to look at this is to , is to , do some stuff on Switchboard which has all this other , stuff to it . professor c: And then , As we get , further down the road and we can do more things ahead of time , we can , do some of the same things to the meeting data . postdoc b: And I 'm and these people might they they are , s most of them are trained with IPA . professor c: Yeah postdoc b: They 'd be able to do phonetic - level coding , or articulatory . phd d: Are they busy for the next couple years , or ? postdoc b: Well , you know , they , they they 're interested in continuing working with us , so I , and this would be up their alley , so , we could when the when you d meet with , with John Ohala and find , you know what taxonomy you want to apply , then , they 'd be , good to train onto it . phd g: It might be grad f: you 'd you 'd want models for spreading . phd g: I was thinking it might be n phd d: Of the f acoustic features ? grad f: Yeah . phd g: Well it might be neat to do some , phonetic , features on these , nonword words . Are are these kinds of words that people never the " huh "s and the " "s and the " huh " and the These k No , I 'm serious . phd g: And some of them are , yeah , " - huh "s , and " "s , and , " ! " " " " OK " , " " Grunts , that might be interesting . professor c: new version of , presegmentation ? phd a: oh yeah , I worked a little bit on the on the presegmentation to to get another version which does channel - specific , speech - nonspeech detection . And , what I did is I used some normalized features which , look in into the which is normalized energy , energy normalized by the mean over the channels and by the , minimum over the , other . And to to , to , yeah , to normalize also loudness and and modified loudness and things and that those special features actually are in my feature vector . phd a: And , and , therefore to be able to , somewhat distinguish between foreground and background speech in in the different in each channel . And , eh , I tested it on on three or four meetings and it seems to work , well yeah , fairly well , I I would say . grad f: So I I understand that 's what you were saying about your problem with , minimum . phd a: Yeah yeah , then I I did some some some things like that , postdoc b: Interesting . phd a: as there there are some some problems in , when , in the channel , there they the the speaker doesn't doesn't talk much or doesn't talk at all . Then , the , yeah , there are there are some problems with with with n with normalization , and , then , there the system doesn't work at all . So , I 'm I 'm glad that there is the the digit part , where everybody is forced to say something , professor c: Right . And , the thing is I I , then the evaluation of of the system is a little bit hard , as I don't have any references . phd a: Yeah , that 's the one one wh where I do the training on so I can't do the evaluation on So the thing is , can the transcribers perhaps do some , some some meetings in in terms of speech - nonspeech in in the specific channels ? grad f: . postdoc b: Well , I have phd d: Well won't you have that from their transcriptions ? postdoc b: Well , OK , so , now we need grad f: No , cuz we need is really tight . postdoc b: so , I think I might have done what you 're requesting , though I did it in the service of a different thing . postdoc b: I have thirty minutes that I 've more tightly transcribed with reference to individual channels . postdoc b: And I could And And grad f: Hopefully that 's not the same meeting that we did . postdoc b: So , e so the , you know , we have the , th they transcribe as if it 's one channel with these with the slashes to separate the overlapping parts . postdoc b: And then we run it through then it then I 'm gonna edit it and I 'm gonna run it through channelize which takes it into Dave Gelbart 's form format . postdoc b: And then you have , all these things split across according to channel , and then that means that , if a person contributed more than once in a given , overlap during that time bend that that two parts of the utterance end up together , it 's the same channel , phd a: OK . postdoc b: and then I took his tool , and last night for the first thirty minutes of one of these transcripts , I , tightened up the , boundaries on individual speakers ' channels , phd a: OK . postdoc b: cuz his his interface allows me to have total flexibility in the time tags across the channels . phd a: so , yeah yeah , that that that 's great , but what would be nice to have some more meetings , not just one meeting to to be sure that that , there is a system , phd d: So , current This week . grad f: Yeah , so if we could get a couple meetings done with that level of precision I think that would be a good idea . , how how m much time so the meetings vary in length , what are we talking about in terms of the number of minutes you 'd like to have as your as your training set ? phd a: It seems to me that it would be good to have , a few minutes from from different meetings , so . postdoc b: OK , now you 're saying different meetings because of different speakers or because of different audio quality or both or ? phd a: Both both . professor c: Yeah , we don't have that much variety in meetings yet , we have this meeting and the feature meeting and we have a couple others that we have , couple examples of . grad e: Even probably with the gains differently will affect it , you mean phd a: not really as professor c: Poten - potentially . phd g: We can try running we haven't done this yet because , Andreas an is is gonna move over the SRI recognizer . phd g: cuz we 're running the evals and I just don't have machine time there . But , once that 's moved over , hopefully in a a couple days , then , we can take , what Jane just told us about as , the presegmented , the the segmentations that you did , at level eight or som at some , threshold that Jane , tha right , and try doing , forced alignment . phd g: And if it 's good , then that will that may give you a good boundary . Of course if it 's good , we don't then we 're we 're fine , phd a: Yeah . M phd g: but , I don't know yet whether these , segments that contain a lot of pauses around the words , will work or not . phd a: I I would quite like to have some manually transcribed references for for the system , as I 'm not sure if if it 's really good to compare with with some other automatic , found boundaries . postdoc b: Well , no , if we were to start with this and then tweak it h manually , would that that would be OK ? phd a: Yeah . phd g: but , I would have maybe a transciber , look at the result of a forced alignment and then adjust those . phd g: If they 're horrible it won't help at all , but they might not be horrible . postdoc b: How many minutes would you want from , we could easily , get a section , you know , like say a minute or so , from every meeting that we have so f from the newer ones that we 're working on , everyone that we have . phd a: If it 's not the first minute of of the meeting , that that 's OK with me , but , in in the first minute , Often there are some some strange things going on which which aren't really , well , for , which which aren't re re really good . What what I 'd quite like , perhaps , is , to have , some five minutes of of of different meetings , so . postdoc b: And , then I wanted to ask you just for my inter information , then , would you , be trai cuz I don't quite unders so , would you be training then , the segmenter so that , it could , on the basis of that , segment the rest of the meeting ? So , if I give you like five minutes is the idea that this would then be applied to , to , providing tighter time bands ? phd a: I I could do a a retraining with that , yeah . phd a: That 's but but I hope that I I don't need to do it . phd a: I 'm I 'm not sure , but , for for for those three meetings whi which I which I did , it seems to be , quite well , but , there are some some as I said some problems with the lapel mike , but , perhaps we can do something with with cross - correlations to , to get rid of the of those . Well well what I want to do is to to look into cross - correlations for for removing those , false overlaps . phd g: Are the , wireless , different than the wired , mikes , at all ? , have you noticed any difference ? phd a: I 'm I 'm not sure , if if there are any wired mikes in those meetings , or , I have have to loo have a look at them but , I 'm I 'm I think there 's no difference between , phd g: So it 's just the lapel versus everything else ? phd a: Yeah . postdoc b: OK , so then , if that 's five minutes per meeting we 've got like twelve minutes , twelve meetings , roughly , that I 'm that I 've been working with , then professor c: Of of of the meetings that you 're working with , how many of them are different , tha phd a: No . professor c: are there any of them that are different than , these two meetings ? postdoc b: Well oh wa in terms of the speakers or the conditions or the ? professor c: Yeah , speakers . postdoc b: just from what I 've seen , there are some where , you 're present or not present , and , then then you have the difference between the networks group and this group phd a: Yeah , I know , some of the NSA meetings , yeah . professor c: Do you have any of Jerry 's meetings in your , pack , er , postdoc b: no . professor c: No ? postdoc b: We could , you you recorded one last week or so . professor c: and and having as much variety for speaker certainly would be a big part of that I think . postdoc b: OK , so if I , OK , included include , OK , then , if I were to include all together samples from twelve meetings that would only take an hour and I could get the transcribers to do that right , what is , that would be an hour sampled , and then they 'd transcribe those that hour , right ? That 's what I should do ? professor c: Yeah . So they get it into the multi - channel format and then adjust the timebands so it 's precise . professor c: So that should be faster than the ten times kind of thing , postdoc b: Absolutely . postdoc b: Oh gosh , well , last night , I did about half an hour in , three hours , which is not , terrific , professor c: Yeah . postdoc b: but , anyway , it 's an hour and a half per professor c: Yeah . phd a: Do the transcribers actually start wi with , transcribing new meetings , or are they ? postdoc b: Well , they 're still working they still have enough to finish that I haven't assigned a new meeting , phd a: OK . postdoc b: but the next , m m I was about to need to assign a new meeting and I was going to take it from one of the new ones , phd a: OK . phd g: So they 're really running out of , data , prett that 's good . professor c: They 're running out of data unless we s make the decision that we should go over and start , transcribing the other set . postdoc b: And so I was in the process of like editing them but this is wonderful news . postdoc b: We funded the experiment with , also we were thinking maybe applying that that to getting the , Yeah , that 'll be , very useful to getting the overlaps to be more precise all the way through . So , Liz , and and Don , and I met this morning , in the BARCO room , with the lecture hall , professor c: OK . postdoc b: and this afternoon , it drifted into the afternoon , concerning this issue of , the , well there 's basically the issue of the interplay between the transcript format and the processing that , they need to do for , the SRI recognizer . And , well , so , I mentioned the process that I 'm going through with the data , so , you know , I get the data back from the transcri Well , s , metaphorically , get the data back from the transcriber , and then I , check for simple things like spelling errors and things like that . And , I 'm going to be doing a more thorough editing , with respect to consistency of the conventions . And , then , I run it through , the channelize program to get it into the multi - channel format , OK . And the , what we discussed this morning , I would summarize as saying that , these units that result , in a a particular channel and a particular timeband , at at that level , vary in length . But it 's really an empirical question , whether the units we get at this point through , just that process I described might be sufficient for them . So , as a first pass through , a first chance without having to do a lot of hand - editing , what we 're gonna do , is , I 'll run it through channelize , give them those data after I 've done the editing process and be sure it 's clean . And I can do that , pretty quickly , with just , that minimal editing , without having to hand - break things . postdoc b: And then we 'll see if the units that we 're getting , with the at that level , are sufficient . And if they do need to be further broken down then maybe it just be piece - wise , maybe it won't be the whole thing . So , that 's that 's what we were discussing , this morning as far as I Among phd g: Right . postdoc b: also we discussed some adaptational things , phd g: Then lots of postdoc b: so it 's like , phd g: Right . postdoc b: You know I hadn't , incorporated , a convention explicitly to handle acronyms , for example , but if someone says , PZM it would be nice to have that be directly interpretable from , the transcript what they said , professor c: It 's like y it 's and so , I 've I 've incorporated also convention , with that but that 's easy to handle at the post editing phase , and I 'll mention it to , transcribers for the next phase but that 's OK . , and also I 'll be , encoding , as I do my post - editing , the , things that are in curly brackets , which are clarificational material . So , it 's gonna be either a gloss or it 's gonna be a vocal sound like a , laugh or a cough , or , so forth . Or a non - vocal sound like a doors door - slam , and that can be easily done with a , you know , just a one little additional thing in the , in the general format . phd g: Yeah we j we just needed a way to , strip , you know , all the comments , all the things th the that linguist wants but the recognizer can't do anything with . , but to keep things that we mapped to like reject models , or , you know , mouth noise , or , cough . And then there 's this interesting issue Jane brought up which I hadn't thought about before but I was , realizing as I went through the transcripts , that there are some noises like , well the good example was an inbreath , where a transcriber working from , the mixed , signal , doesn't know whose breath it is , grad f: Right . phd g: and they 've been assigning it to someone that may or may not be correct . And what we do is , if it 's a breath sound , you know , a sound from the speaker , we map it , to , a noise model , like a mouth - noise model in the recognizer , and , yeah , it probably doesn't hurt that much once in a while to have these , but , if they 're in the wrong channel , that 's , not a good idea . And then there 's also , things like door - slams that 's really in no one 's channel , they 're like it 's in the room . phd g: And , Jane had this nice , idea of having , like an extra , couple tiers , grad f: An extra channel . So if they hear a breath and they don't know who breath it is it 's better to put it in that channel than to put it in the speaker 's channel because maybe it was someone else 's breath , or , so I think that 's a good you can always clean that up , post - processing . phd g: So a lot of little details , but I think we 're , coming to some kinda closure , on that . So the idea is then , Don can take , Jane 's post - processed channelized version , and , with some scripts , you know , convert that to to a reference for the recognizer and we can , can run these . So when that 's , ready you know , as soon as that 's ready , and as soon as the recognizer is here we can get , twelve hours of force - aligned and recognized data . And , you know , start , working on it , postdoc b: And phd g: so we 're , I dunno a coup a week or two away I would say from , if if that process is automatic once we get your post - process , transcript . I 'm just hoping that the units that are provided in that way , will be sufficient cuz I would save a lot of , time , dividing things . Just from I dunno how long were you did one ? grad e: I saw a couple , around twenty seconds , and that was just without looking too hard for it , so , I would imagine that there might be some that are longer . postdoc b: Well n One question , e w would that be a single speaker or is that multiple speakers overlapping ? grad e: No . No , but if we 're gonna segment it , like if there 's one speaker in there , that says " OK " or something , right in the middle , it 's gonna have a lot of dead time around it , phd g: Right . It 's not the it 's not the fact that we can't process a twenty second segment , it 's the fact that , there 's twenty seconds in which to place one word in the wrong place grad e: so it 's not postdoc b: Yeah . phd g: You know , if if someone has a very short utterance there , and that 's where , we , might wanna have this individual , you know , ha have your pre pre - process input . phd a: I I I thought that perhaps the transcribers could start then from the those mult multi - channel , speech - nonspeech detections , if they would like to . phd g: So that 's probably what will happen , but we 'll try it this way and see . We 'll probably get lots of errors because of the cross - talk , and , noises and things . postdoc b: Oh I wanted to ask one thing , the microphones the new microphones , professor c: Yeah ? K . postdoc b: when do we get , ? grad f: they said it would take about a week . phd g: So what happens to our old microphones ? professor c: They go where old microphones go . grad f: phd g: Do we give them to someone , or ? grad f: Well the only thing we 're gonna have extra , for now , phd g: We don't have more receivers , we just have grad f: Right , we don so the only thing we 'll have extra now is just the lapel . Since , what I decided to do , on Morgan 's suggestion , was just get two , new microphones , and try them out . grad f: Since they 're they 're like two hundred bucks a piece , we won't , at least try them out . phd d: So it 's a replacement for this headset mike ? grad f: Yep . phd d: What 's the , style of the headset ? grad f: It 's , it 's by Crown , and it 's one of these sort of mount around the ear thingies , and , when I s when I mentioned that we thought it was uncomfortable he said it was a common problem with the Sony . grad f: And I checked on the web , and every site I went to , raved about this particular mike . It 's apparently comfortable and stays on the head well , so we 'll see if it 's any good . postdoc b: You said it was used by aerobics instructors ? grad f: Yep . professor c: For the recor for the record Adam is not a paid employee or a consultant of Crown . professor c: I said " For the record Adam is is not a paid consultant or employee of Crown " . grad f: The P Z Ms are Crown , aren't they ? professor c: Yeah . professor c: So if we go to a workshop about all this this it 's gonna be a meeting about meetings about meetings . professor c: Oh , yeah , what Which 'll be the meeting about the meeting about the meeting . grad f: Cuz then it would be a meeting about the meeting about the meeting about meetings . phd a: S s grad f: Pause between the lines , remember ? grad e: Excuse me <doc-sep>grad b: Actually grad f: I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career . grad a: So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting . Yeah , I I I avoided that as long as I could for you guys , grad f: growl . grad d: Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ? grad f: Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man ! grad d: Nah . grad c: Oh yeah , Liz suggested we could start off by , doing the digits all at the same time . professor e: e grad a: Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ? professor e: Well , I think you 're supposed to OK . grad f: Are you being silly ? grad d: Oh wait do we have t professor e: Everybody 's got different digits , grad c: Yep . professor e: right ? grad d: Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping grad f: . grad a: And any rate ? professor e: e yeah , the grad f: Alright . professor e: Well , they they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us , grad a: Yeah , that 's true . grad a: Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ? professor e: No . grad d: Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that grad c: We could . grad d: Is professor e: Well , you you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . grad c: Not not rehearse , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it grad a: I haven't looked at it grad c: because grad a: yet , grad c: but you could always send me comments per electronic mail grad a: but I will . grad c: the It basically says , well " this is construal " , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what grad a: . grad c: ? grad d: OK , we can we can we can pass pass my , we can pass my extra copy around . grad d: Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it , grad f: Alrigh grad a: OK . grad c: actually this is the the newest version after your comments , grad f: OK . grad c: and professor e: Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that . grad d: Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I mine the w did the one you sent on the email have the professor e: Yeah . grad c: if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , up - to - d grad a: Oh . grad c: And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or grad a: grad c: readability grad f: There 's only one " S " in " interesting " . grad c: ? grad f: There 's only one " S " in " interesting " . And y , email any time , but most usefully before grad d: The twenty - first I 'm assuming . grad f: That 's grad d: What , today 's the twenty - first ? grad f: Well , better hurry up then ! grad d: Oh , man ! grad a: Before the twenty - ninth , grad c: The twenty - ninth . grad c: That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea . grad c: OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning The Cave Forty - Five is a is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that that time . grad c: they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? , which is probably not , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , SmartKom stuff , that we did , everth grad f: Oh , you 've got the parser done . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about , actually I have an example , probably . grad c: But they 're they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer , grad f: Oh , OK . grad c: the you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine . grad c: Yeah , you have to grad a: Wh grad f: The system breaking . , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , point out that it 's basically the same . , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , some first , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit as much as I can about the NTL story . I I wa I do wanna , I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net . Should I mention the fact that , we 're also actually started going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ? professor e: You certainly can . I y I you know , I don't know grad a: You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something . professor e: Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking grad c: Yeah . professor e: and , you know , the yeah , yeah and that the plan is to see to what extent the you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that grad c: professor e: which , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you you 've got an old one that that leaves that off . grad c: But , you know , it would But I don't think I I am capable of of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be you know , it would be nice to tell people how what 's happening there , plus how the , language learning stuff works , professor e: OK , so , so anyway , I I agree that 's not central . professor e: What you might wanna do is , and may not , but you might wanna this is rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there the there we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , how the construction and simulation that ho that whole th grad c: Yeah , th that that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide , grad a: OK , right . grad c: so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy , grad a: OK , I can give you a more recent if you want grad c: one of Nancy 's st grad a: well , that might have enough . grad c: I yeah , but I also have stuff you trash you left over , professor e: OK . professor e: You could get it out of there , or some grad a: Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little few changes , not a big deal . Sorry grad c: Well , I I don't feel bad about it at all grad a: No , you shouldn't . grad c: on the the , you 're that 's see , that 's you . grad c: I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so . grad a: It 's it 's certainly related , grad c: Because , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig . Would professor e: Yeah , it 's different , this is the , DNA building , or someth the double helix building . professor e: The yeah it was it turns out that if if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and grad d: Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA , grad a: What ? grad d: is that what you said ? professor e: Roughly , yeah . grad f: Oh ! Oh boy ! grad a: O professor e: Including cr cross - bridges , grad a: What ? professor e: and grad a: Oh my god ! grad f: That 's brilliant ! Hhh . professor e: You d you really now I I spent the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , grad a: Of what grad d: Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research , grad a: the building ? grad d: you know ? professor e: Right . grad c: Well , the the offices are actually a little the , think of , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in in the glass half - dome . grad c: But I th professor e: So , yeah , I think that 's that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , a lot of the this is interacting with , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . grad f: You might want to , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , misspells in your slides , there . grad f: unless there 's a person called " Jackendorf " , grad a: On that one ? professor e: No , no , no . grad a: I 'll probably I c might have I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . professor e: So I did note i i it looks like the , metaphor didn't get in yet . grad c: it did , there is a reference to Srini professor e: Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place Oh , did you put in something about , grad a: Metonymy and metaphor here , right ? professor e: the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , Oh yeah , OK . professor e: But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about we talked about is the , scalability that you get by , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . professor e: OK , so where where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look . grad c: but I I did not focus on that aspect but , Ehhh , it 's just underneath , that reference to metaphor . grad c: But that 's really grad a: That 's not about that , is it ? grad c: Yeah . professor e: No , it it it s says it but it doesn't say it doesn't it d it d grad c: Why . professor e: Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at at the base level , it should com , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work . professor e: And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then , compose with all of the constructions . professor e: And it to the extent that that 's true then then it 's a big win over anything that exists . grad d: So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them . So that , you know , for example , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff you can do the same grammar . But , the trick is that the the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , " trouble " isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container . So that 's that 's where this , grad d: So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule . So 's it 's it it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could . That is , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there you know , et cetera . grad c: But " walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , " and " walked into the cafe and broke his nose , " that 's sort of professor e: Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous . professor e: a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as as a obstacle , grad f: - huh . professor e: But it does say that , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle . professor e: And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading . grad d: You con you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , " Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? " , oh , grad f: He slipped on the wet floor . grad c: You don't find that usage , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus . grad c: The " walk into it " never really means , w as in walked smack professor e: But " run into " does . grad c: Yeah , but , y y if you find " walked smacked into the cafe " or " slammed into the wall " professor e: Yeah , no , but " run into " does . professor e: Because you will find " run into , " , grad d: Cars run into telephone poles all the time . grad a: Yeah , " run into " might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense . professor e: But Like , " run into an old friend " , it probably needs its own construction . , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else grad a: professor e: and maybe it is , but , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , I don't know . grad f: Sudden surprising contact , professor e: Yeah , but it 's it 's it 's it 's Right . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial professor e: Well , this is this motivated but yeah grad f: Yeah . professor e: oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated . grad a: There 's there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , this has gotten wh We don't need the words to that . grad a: What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there . professor e: anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got grad c: Well , professor e: We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it . grad c: Well there actually the i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , from our domain . grad a: wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff , grad c: How grad a: as well as , mappings ? grad c: w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something professor e: Right right r grad c: and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the to the domain . professor e: OK , f let 's let 's suppose you use " in " and " on " . professor e: So " in the bus " and " on the bus , " , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . grad c: I had two hours w with George on this , so it , professor e: OK , what did he say . Oh , h that 's grad c: " On the bus " is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on on that path and th w it 's he there 's a platform notion , professor e: Yeah , I I believe all that , it 's just grad c: right ? " he 's on the standing on the bus waving to me . grad c: But th the regular as we speak " J Johno was on the bus to New York , " professor e: Yeah . grad c: he 's that 's , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something , professor e: Yeah . grad c: where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight , professor e: Yeah . professor e: like " under the bus , " or something , where grad c: But it 's it 's unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . grad c: And there 's a lot of " out of " analysis , so , professor e: Right . grad c: could we capture that with a different construal of grad a: Yeah , it 's a little it 's , we 've thought about it before , t to use the examples in other papers , and it 's it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of there 's resource , grad f: Out of out of film , in particular . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource . grad f: yeah , grad a: It 's a little bit grad f: but and plus the fact that there 's also s , can you say , like , " The film ran out " you know , or , maybe you could say something like " The film is out " grad a: Yeah , is film the trajector ? grad f: so like the the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The the film the film is gone , right ? , I never really knew what was going on , I I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that that " I 'm out of film " means that I have left the state of having film or something like that , grad a: It 's weird . professor e: b but the difference grad c: Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it . professor e: But , grad f: ! professor e: Yeah , so so nob so no one has in in of the , professional linguists , grad a: . grad a: There was ? Who ? professor e: Well , there I thought or there was a paper on it . professor e: Huh ? grad f: There was one on on " out " or " out of " ? professor e: There was a Well , it may be just " out " . professor e: I think there was " over " but there was also a paper on " out " . grad f: Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner , grad a: Oh , yeah , you 're right . grad f: right ? The the " the syrup spread out " ? professor e: Yeah , and all that sort of stuff . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics , professor e: OK . So , grad a: It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes grad c: grad a: th these are you 're addressing like , computational linguists , professor e: OK . Or are you ? grad c: There 's gonna be four computational linguists , grad a: OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ? grad c: computer it 's More there 's going to be the just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes grad c: Oh , the thesis ! grad a: Oh , I meant this , professor e: it 's just for one guy . grad c: That 's that 's computa should be very computational , grad a: you know , like OK . grad a: You know , it 's an obvious one grad f: Totally weird stuff . grad c: the the old bakery example might be nice , grad a: but , grad c: " Is there a bakery around here " . grad a: Around ? grad c: No , it 's the bakery itself grad a: Oh . grad c: is it a building ? , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ? grad a: Oh , oh yeah . The question is d do you wanna do you wanna construe do you wanna constr - strue grad f: Sh grad d: It 's a speech - act . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that that i for example , if y grad a: Yeah . But the other is , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or , grad f: professor e: pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery grad f: Yeah . professor e: But , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples . grad a: So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that grad f: Yeah . professor e: So let 's so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the Though , the one you have isn't quite grad a: You mean the s You mean " the steak wants to pay " ? professor e: N no not that one , that 's that 's a the sort of background . grad c: How old is it ? How much does it cost ? grad d: Oh . grad a: To go in , that 's like grad f: Two hundred million dollars . grad a: Like , " it " doesn't refer to " thing , " it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist you could think of it that way , but . grad f: Well , shoot , isn't that , that 's what grad c: Well , my argument here is it 's it 's it 's the same thing as " Plato 's on the top shelf , " grad f: figuring that out is what this is about . grad c: I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using " Plato , " grad a: Yeah . No no , I I 'm agreeing that this is a good , grad c: and you can refer back to it , and so you can Castles have as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say " Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? " . grad c: So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so , grad a: . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of " where " in the tourist 's domain ? . professor e: So you know it 's you you can sometimes use " where " f for " when " grad f: O professor e: in the sense of , you know , where wh where where was , " where was Heidelberg , in the Thirty Years ' War ? " Or something . grad f: Like what side were they on , grad a: What ? professor e: Yeah . , grad a: Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could I guess you could get that . grad f: there 's also things like , s , I guess I could ask something like " Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah " in a sort of doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number professor e: Yeah . grad f: and I 'll call them or something like that ? professor e: You know , " Where could I learn its opening hours , " or something . professor e: So we 're thinking about , or we could also think about , grad c: Well , I I I professor e: How about " I 'm in a hurry " ? grad a: State . professor e: It i But it 's a state and the the issue is , is that it may be just a usage , grad f: ? professor e: you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know . grad a: I 'm really into professor e: Ah ! How about I I I you know , " I 'm in I 'm in a state of exhaustion " ? grad a: Do you really say that ? professor e: or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ? grad a: Would you really say that ? professor e: A st , well , you can certainly say , you know , " I 'm in overload . grad a: Yeah , I was gonna say , like grad d: professor e: Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's that that 's definitely a , grad f: Fixed . grad a: There 're too there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't like " I 'm out of sorts now ! " professor e: Right . grad a: Like " I 'm in trouble ! " grad c: Well I when , just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec professor e: Yeah . grad c: So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build professor e: Right . , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth . grad a: Why don't you want to use any of those ? grad c: ? grad a: So y you don't wanna use one that 's grad c: Yeah , well No , but this that 's what I have , you know , started doing . professor e: The castle the that old castle one is sort of grad c: Metonymy , polysemy . grad c: But I think the argument should be , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical , professor e: Yeah . grad c: construal still is , you know , completely , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , . So that 's that 's that 's a that 's a reasonable point , that it in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy . grad c: We , I with a I looked with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy . grad c: But OK this is just something we 'll we 'll see , professor e: Right . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions , grad c: maybe the " where is something " question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request . grad c: So , if we 're not talk about the lexic grad a: Location versus what ? grad c: instruction . grad a: Oh , I thought that was definitely treated as an example of construal . grad a: Right ? grad c: Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher . grad c: Also it would be nice to get ultimately to get a nice mental space example , professor e: We grad c: so , even temporal references are just in the spatial domain are rare . professor e: What was this p instead of wh what you know how was this painted , what color was this painted , was this alleyway open . grad c: We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth . grad d: For some reason when you said " feedback electronically " I thought of that you ever see the Simpsons where they 're like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ? grad a: Yeah

The presentation at EML will cover a theoretical framework, including NTL, mirror neurons, and relevant fMRI work. The neural aspect of the research is of interest to various groups. The language analysis will focus on image schemas. Additionally, feedback on the thesis proposal will be provided via email. The latest version of the construction formalism is necessary for the presentation. In terms of transcribing, a decision was made to delegate transcribers to label a subset of digits or Switchboard data for fine-grained acoustic-phonetic features. Speaker fe008 will analyze selected Meeting Recorder data using channelize to determine the adequacy of the resulting units. The group also discussed the possibility of conducting fine-grained acoustic-phonetic analyses on a subset of Meeting Recorder digits or Switchboard data. They explored pre-segmentation manipulations that allow for the segmentation of channel-specific speech/non-speech portions and the differentiation of foreground and background speech.

What were the discussions about the talk, neurons, transcriber pool, and acoustic-phonetic analyses?

I'll take this opportunity to welcome Dawn formally to the committee but also to place on record our thanks to John Griffiths for his service to the committee. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, Eluned Morgan, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, and Huw Morris, who is the group director of skills, higher education and lifelong learning. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in filling the places for secondary school training. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things are getting better? kirsty williams am: Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well? kirsty williams am: No. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it? kirsty williams am: Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have? kirsty williams am: Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers. llyr gruffydd am: You have your targets for 2021, in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system, which is positive, although, clearly, the report or the review itself said that, actually, we need to double the numbers, really. But it's not just the trends that are going down; it's a cataclysmic drop, really. We've lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh. So, it's a huge turnaround that we're looking for, and I'm not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you're giving here this morning reflect the level of action that's needed, really. kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, as I tried to illustrate to Suzy, the figures on their own tell one story, but there are additional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use— llyr gruffydd am: I think it's 40 per cent of those who are currently in the system who don't— kirsty williams am: —the language and skills. And if we look at qualifiers of ITE courses in Wales by degree type, actually, we see a different trend—we see numbers going up. That's why we have got the evaluation of provision in ITE and that's why we'll be taking that ambition forward. Clearly, there are statistics and there are statistics, so could you just explain to us which statistics you've used for your targets for growth over the next three years? kirsty williams am: Well, that comes as a result of the work done for the 2050— llyr gruffydd am: Upon which baseline are you basing the increases that you're projecting? kirsty williams am: We're using the baseline of 2012-13. llyr gruffydd am: That's the one I was using when I said '24 per cent reduction'. That's why, as I said, we're doing the work that we need to do to reverse that decline. In using those numbers, we also know that there are additional people in the system who are not captured in those figures and who do have the linguistic ability to use their language positively in school settings. So, what I'm saying is that that doesn't tell us the whole story, but I will be the first to admit that there is a significant job of work with our ITE providers to ensure that we will have the skilled professionals that we need to deliver on our ambitions, and I'm not hiding from that. eluned morgan am: Also, I just think it's worth saying that a lot of this is about building the confidence of those people who actually can speak Welsh, who are not teaching through the medium of Welsh, and to give them that support. First of all, we need to identify who these people are, so there is a job of work being undertaken now in terms of registration in particular—when people register, let's just make sure that we collect that kind of data. One of the recommendations of the report is that there is no consistent approach to understanding this baseline data and there's no consistent competency test that people start at the beginning of their course, so we need a national approach rather than leaving it to individual institutions. llyr gruffydd am: Have we missed any tricks, potentially, in terms of the reforms to accrediting ITE, for example, in terms of, maybe, strengthening aspects around the Welsh language and provision in that respect? kirsty williams am: No, I don't believe so. The accreditation process, which is independent of the Government—the accreditation process demands of our ITE providers that their provision will be able to meet the goals of our curriculum. Our curriculum is very clear about the equality of the language and the ability of our children, through all stages of their education journey, to be able to be bilingual children. llyr gruffydd am: So, that requirement, as far you're concerned, is there. lynne neagle am: Before I turn to Hefin, can I just clarify—? In answer to Suzy Davies, you said that 65 per cent of the places in Welsh training centres had been filled. hefin david am: The decision by the Education Workforce Council not to accredit the University of South Wales with the ability to deliver teacher training—what are your views and concerns about that? kirsty williams am: The process is independent of Government, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that, especially as I understand that there is an appeals process that may be being undertaken. What I would say is that from the very outset of our ITE reforms we have made it very clear that I expect very high standards in our ITE system, but the process is independent of this Government. I have confidence in the people who have been appointed by the EWC to undertake that process, but it is independent of me, and it's not appropriate for me to comment on that further. hefin david am: I fully understand that and the need for distance for the EWC, but there'll be an impact on students and staff. Students, first of all: are you concerned that the reduction in providers might have an impact on students, and those students going through the second year at USW? Would you have concerns about that issue? kirsty williams am: In terms of the overall numbers, we will be looking to commission from those institutions that have been accredited the number of training places that our planning tool says that we need. Clearly, there will be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensure that those students already in the system are able to complete their studies and their course, with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and to graduate from that programme. hefin david am: And what about the uncertainty for staff, or would you say that's an issue for the university itself? kirsty williams am: These are autonomous bodies. They have to act accordingly, in compliance with any employment law or any statutory responsibilities that they would have as an employer. That's not a matter for me; that is a matter for the institution that is an autonomous body. hefin david am: But I would be surprised if you weren't keeping an eye on this, given that it has been a key provider. Are you aware of when the appeal decision will be known? kirsty williams am: My understanding is that the appeals process is ongoing, and next month, perhaps. But as I said, this is a process that is independent of Government— hefin david am: But it will have an impact for what you do. kirsty williams am: It will potentially change the nature of the people from whom we commission places, but as I said, I do not have any concerns that we will not be in a position to commission the appropriate number of training places that we will need as a result of our planning. suzy davies am: It's not directly about USW; it's about the geographic spread of provision. I wonder if you could just give us a snapshot of what that looks like, and whether you think—certainly for PGCE or postgrad courses, anyway—that if they're not accessible geographically and we've got students who already have three years' worth of debt, they're not going to be looking to, necessarily, live away from home for a fourth year, and may want to study nearer home. Has there been any research done on the access to these postgrad courses, about where people are coming from and whether that's had an impact on the fact that some of these places haven't been filled? kirsty williams am: Currently, with our current providers, there is a significant geographical spread. There are centres here in the south-east, there are centres in the south-west, in mid Wales, and in north Wales. We do think that, for some students, accessibility is an issue, and of course that's why we are responding with our part-time PGCE route, which actually will be location neutral, because you will be able to study that as a distance learner, and so you will be able to remain in your community and undertake that course. So, if geographical disadvantage is stopping somebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher, our new part-time PGCE, as I said, will allow them to do that. We're going to move on now to talk about reform and reconfiguration of the post-16 education sector. There are some encouraging provisional signs regarding the demand for part-time undergraduate study for the first year of Diamond, but the £12.5 million reduction Higher Education Funding Council for Wales is having to make this academic year has potentially placed the funding for part-time provision under pressure. Is there a danger that, without maintaining and growing this funding, Welsh Government will undermine the Diamond reforms and increase the cost of part-time courses? kirsty williams am: Let's be absolutely clear what this Government has done for part-time students. We are unique, Janet: unique in the UK and, I believe, unique in Europe, in the parity of the support that is available for full-time and part-time students. So, Welsh part-timers have something that they do not get if they are in England or if they're in Scotland. It's too early to have definitive figures for the impact of Diamond on the number of people who are undertaking part-time study. I don't want to get into trouble by not having that verified data, and I know Members get testy with me for anecdotal evidence, but I can tell you this: there is one provider that is reporting at this moment a 40 per cent increase in the number of students that are registered to start part-time study with them this year, as compared to last year, and that reflects really, really well, compared to the onward downward trend that we see across the border for part-time. What this means, for us as a nation, is that people are able to take this opportunity to upskill themselves and to be able to develop their qualifications and to be able to move themselves up career ladders, and I think that's such an important economic factor for us. So, rather than feeling doom and gloom about the prospects for the part-time sector, the early indications, at least, show that the Diamond reforms are leading to an increase in demand and, more importantly, an increase in uptake—students taking advantage of that system to go away and study. Is the Welsh Government able to reassure the committee that its ambitions for the post-compulsory education and training reforms are still in line with the original Hazelkorn recommendations, and go beyond the Labour manifesto commitment of simply replacing HEFCW with a new funding body for HE and FE? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, you will be aware, Janet, that the agreement between myself and the First Minister that brought me into the Government and the Government's programme state very clearly about our desire to pursue the recommendations of the Hazelkorn report. I hope, by the end of this week, we will have published the responses to the technical consultation, and we will continue to move forward. And I would argue, certainly, that the reforms that we are intending to implement do go beyond just simply a body that replaces HEFCW and joins in FE. And, as I said, I believe we've had in the region of about 450 responses to the technical consultation and I'm pleased to say that there remains a consensus—we will always have some arguments about the details—but there remains a consensus on the direction of travel that we are pursuing. A summary of the consultation responses will be available to Members and will be published by the end of the week. Is the Welsh Government still committed to introducing the PCET Bill before the end of the fifth Assembly, and are you confident this will happen? kirsty williams am: Well, I'm absolutely determined that we will get the PCET legislation on the floor. So, it is a substantial piece of work, but I believe that we are on track to be able to do that by the end of this term. llyr gruffydd am: Can I just pick up on that? , it is going to be a big job, and, clearly, there's a strong focus on creating the commission and putting the structures in place, but, of course, one of the drivers is that we want to effect a cultural change in the way that people perceive post-16 education. When are we going to see this coming forward? Because I think we're putting structures in place, so there's a big discussion about the technical stuff, but I feel there's a bit of a vacuum in terms of the vision. kirsty williams am: Well, I would disagree with you, Llyr, because— llyr gruffydd am: Right, okay. kirsty williams am: Well, I would disagree with you because, of course, the technical consultation has followed what we had last year, which was a consultation on the vision, on what we needed to do to bring the sector together beyond just HE and FE, to the inclusion of sixth forms; work-based learning providers; apprenticeships; and bringing all of that together under one body. I believe that that gives us an opportunity to have better strategic planning; to help us prevent duplication; to help us bridge gaps that are not available for learners at the moment. My vision is that it will promote collaboration between institutions rather than simply having the market-based process that we see in other places where there's competition rather than collaboration. I want to see it strengthen links between schools, FE and HE, strengthen links between schools and employers and business, to make sure that we've got better information and advice services so that young people know what their pathways are and can make really informed choices about what's best for them, to help them make them. So, I think: we've done the vision, we're now doing the technical consultation, that will be published by the end of the week, and we'll move forward with our overarching vision that Hazelkorn elaborated and that we are now taking forward. llyr gruffydd am: So, you would be very concerned if FE institutions were saying that we really need to see the vision, that that's the next step, that we really need to understand the vision. As I said, I was with one of our excellent FE leaders just at the end of last week; it wasn't raised with me then. I think there's a shared understanding of the vision, but I understand and I do see some nervousness about, actually, in the end, will this just be HEFCW by another name, and, the opportunity for FE, will this be realised in this new body? We need to keep ensuring that, as we go forward and develop the policy, and as we develop, eventually, the legislation, that that parity of esteem and that true equality across all parts of the sector is realised. Your paper to the committee says that there's a need for more analysis and research into the outcomes for learners from different backgrounds. If you don't have the analysis, how can you be sure that the investment that's being made by the Welsh universities is actually going to have a positive outcome in the right places and lead to better outcomes for underrepresented groups? kirsty williams am: Okay. Well, of course, that would be one of the duties of the new commission set up as a result of our post-compulsory education and training reforms that I would anticipate. The universities are required, under the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015, to produce fee and access statements, and the £104 million that they have to take off their fees to be able to promote this work—those fee and access plans have to be signed off by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales as being robust and truly promoting equality of opportunity. We are looking at—. It's quite early days, still, for that new regulatory regime to come through, so we ask HEFCW, when I meet with HEFCW, about the adequacy of those plans. That's why we're introducing the Diamond reforms—so that those from the poorest backgrounds can be adequately financially supported and are not put off from going to a university. So, for instance, in the FE sector, we're introducing new joint monitoring for outcomes for sixth-form learners and FE learners, because we've never tracked them in the same way. So, we're introducing that now so that we can see the destinations for those two sectors, but the PCET reforms give us an opportunity to do that right across the board. Huw, is there anything else I need to add? huw morris: Well, I'd just reinforce the point the Cabinet Secretary made about the fee and access plans being the vehicle through which we get universities to specify what they're going to do, and the funding council tracks that. To make sure that we're doing that in a full and appropriate manner, periodically, we ask for that system to be reviewed. I think it was in 2017 that the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods—the research arm of Cardiff University—reviewed the system and looked at how widening access was being promoted by different institutions and whether that was working in all parts of Wales. The report from that group was considered by one of the sub-committees in HEFCW and they are revising the process as a consequence. So, I think we can be confident that there are ambitious targets that are monitored, and, periodically, the system as a whole is reviewed. michelle brown am: Can you tell us what sort of research and data the universities are basing those access plans on? I assume they'll all have slightly different methods—I appreciate that—but can you give us any idea of how they actually formulate these access plans? huw morris: So, there are data collected across the UK by a body called the Higher Education Statistics Agency. They produce detailed breakdowns, along with UCAS, of where applicants come from, which institutions did they study at, what courses, what their particular characteristics are, including their socioeconomic status, and that data is then analysed at a UK level and in Wales, through HEFCW and its agents, to track what's happening at different institutions at different stages, not just in terms of who's applying and who gets access, but who progresses and what happens to people once they've graduated. I'm just wondering how that data that's already there differs from the research and analysis that you were talking about in your paper. What specific analysis and research were you referring to in your paper? kirsty williams am: We use the HESA—. kirsty williams am: That's shorthand—the HESA data, and institutions use that. This is a source of real concern to me, that Welsh institutions may not be able to have the ready access to that data because of changes the OfS may be making. So, we supplement where we think that there's value to be added in additional breakdowns, or in additional slicing of data and understanding of what is motivating people to come forward. huw morris: And to give you a specific example of that as it applies in north Wales—. So, take a university like Wrexham Glyndŵr University; they have quite a large intake of mature students. The data that's collected and analysed at a UK level tends to look at people who are going into university at a young age, not a mature profile. So, some of the analysis that we do in Wales—indeed, the deliberations of the sub-committee that I spoke about earlier—is about how do we make sure that those differences in Wales are reflected in the data and reflected in the targets that are set. hefin david am: Cabinet Secretary, are you in favour of more university mergers? kirsty williams am: I wouldn't use the word 'agnostic', but what I'm in favour of is a healthy, strong and sustainable HE sector. If individual institutions wish to collaborate or, indeed, go further to a formal merger then, obviously, that is a matter for them. We're not pursuing or urging a policy of mergers, but, if individual institutions feel that is of benefit to them and their students, obviously, we would have an interest in that and making sure that they were robust plans, but that's a matter for individual institutions. kirsty williams am: Well, again, what HEFCW are interested in is a sustainable HE sector that is strong but, as I said, I do not have a burning desire or a set policy to try and pursue mergers. The reason I say it is because I was kind of on the inside when Cardiff Metropolitan University was under pressure from the then Minister to merge with the University of Glamorgan and Newport. You had the University and College Union and the Minister pushing it; the vice-chancellor of Cardiff Met at the time very much against it. So, do you think that it's really—? You're agnostic, but do you think perhaps it's not worth the disruption that can occur to staff and students? kirsty williams am: As I said, Hefin, I have no formal policy for reconfiguration or mergers. Going back to the issue of ITE, a very interesting programme came forward from Cardiff Met and Cardiff University for their ITE provision. So, I'm all for universities and institutions working together, but there's no formal policy. If they see that there is an advantage—I would hope for the student first, and, if we put the student at the front of this process, then we would obviously have an interest in that and making sure that that was the right thing to do. hefin david am: Just to be clear, then, that's likely to be a policy for the foreseeable future as well; you're not going to change that view. kirsty williams am: I have no intentions at this stage, but 'Events, dear boy'. [Laughter.] You know, sometimes there may be a situation that I cannot foresee at this moment that would necessitate, for the benefit of students, the benefit of Wales, a merger. So, never say never, but, at this point in time, I do not foresee us changing that policy. julie morgan am: Yes, just looking back at that time, which I remember very vividly— hefin david am: So do I. Do you feel there has been any disadvantage to Cardiff Met because that merger didn't go ahead? kirsty williams am: I, personally, am not aware of any disadvantage to Cardiff Met, but I would recognise—I would absolutely recognise—for staff and students caught up in those deliberations and those issues, then that would have had a personal impact on them. In terms of the institution going forward, I'm not aware that they are currently struggling with any disadvantage from that discussion. And, as I said, I'm really heartened by some of the really interesting collaborative work that Cardiff Met are interested in doing, and new partnerships and new collaborations between institutions, whether that be Cardiff Uni or local colleges, and I think that's to be welcomed. julie morgan am: So, following on from what Hefin said, was it worth all the fuss? kirsty williams am: Well, look, as it's turned out, we have a strong institution in Cardiff Met, and I think, rather than looking at the past, we need to look at the future. But, of course, there was some reconfiguration and we need to understand any lessons that arose out of reconfiguration, and HEFCW are currently doing some work, actually, to look at reconfiguration, the experience of reconfiguration that did happen, and were benefits realised and what are the lessons that can be learned from that process. So, they are doing a piece of work to reflect, and that will, perhaps, help inform us as we go forward. hefin david am: I'd just say—Julie Morgan was one of our heroes at the time, I've got to say. If I turn that on its head and have a look at University of South Wales, one of the concerns I'm getting from former colleagues and staff is that the Newport aspect—because it was a merger between Newport and the University of Glamorgan—has been somewhat denuded by the merger, and the amount of activity in the new Newport campus and elsewhere in Newport has been reduced by the merger. Are you aware of those concerns that staff may have? kirsty williams am: As I said, it's not for me to second-guess the judgment of previous Ministers who pursued— hefin david am: But it's happening now, . Obviously, one campus closed completely, and there are concerns about the level of activity at the new campus. And we continue to discuss with the University of South Wales and the local FE college what offer is available to the local population, but also the wider contribution that that institution can make to the rest of Wales, and we continue to have conversations with both the college and the university about utilisation of the facilities in Newport and opportunities that could be made available in Newport. hefin david am: That's interesting, because that's the first time I've heard it confirmed from the Government that those concerns that have been raised by former staff and colleagues in Newport are actually echoed by yourself, then. Clearly, going back to the point that I believe Suzy made about geographical coverage, we want to make sure that FE and HE opportunities are available for people throughout Wales, and we continue to work with providers in that area to explore what can be done to enhance the opportunities. hefin david am: And, from a financial point of view, they had £25 million for the merger. Are you satisfied that's value for money, and, at this point in the 10-year plan, that things are going as they should, with incomes being squeezed across the sector? kirsty williams am: Yes. , it's difficult, isn't it, to second-guess what would have happened, what might have happened, if the merger hadn't gone ahead, around the financial stability and sustainability of an institution. How do you prove that, if that hadn't happened, something worse or something better might have happened? It's difficult to do that and to second-guess those judgments, but, as I've said, what I am interested in—. And I can't change that decision that was made by a previous Minister—it wasn't my decision—but what I can do is to ensure that any lessons learnt, any evaluation of that particular set of circumstances, can be looked at and can help inform future policy, which is why HEFCW is doing the piece of work. When that's published, you and I will be in a better position to understand whether the aspirations of that particular merger were realised, not realised, and if we were in that situation again, could we do it better next time? hefin david am: Okay, so you'll reflect on that later. At this point in time, you don't have any concerns about the long-term sustainability of the University of South Wales. The Welsh Government's draft outline budget for 2019 states that it will continue to provide £20 million to further and higher education in 2019-20. Can you outline how this will be allocated between HE and FE and if conditions will be attached to the funding? kirsty williams am: Janet, you will have to wait until the end of the month, when the detailed, main expenditure group by main expenditure group lines of the budget are published, otherwise I will be stealing the finance Minister's thunder. There is a process by which the Welsh Government's budget is dealt with, and those details will emerge later on this month. kirsty williams am: But can I just say on conditions—? You will be aware that there are conditions attached to Government spend, both in the FE sector and in the HE sector. Those budgets will be subject to those existing arrangements; so, for instance, in the HE sector, the remit letter to HEFCW. We're— llyr gruffydd am: Can I just pick up on funding, generally? Sorry. Because, we did talk about HEFCW and part-time funding earlier, and I'm not sure that we addressed the issue of this £12.5 million cut in a specific budget line from HEFCW, because what they've done, if I understand correctly, is that they've put four priorities into one budget line, which includes part-time teaching, and cut that budget line by £12.5 million. Are you not concerned that that'll have an impact on part-time teaching, given that it's such a success story that you're proud of? kirsty williams am: HEFCW have to take cognisance of the remit letter, but then, ultimately, they are free to allocate resources as they see fit. What will drive part-time provision is the students taking it up, and universities responding to that desire and that need within their institutions. We're going to move on now to look at the parity of esteem between academic and vocational post-16 education. Welsh Government wants to achieve parity of esteem between academic and vocational education, and I think that's a very laudable aim. Higher apprenticeships are a key part of this, but Estyn's recent inspection found that only four providers from 17 were achieving good outcomes for learners. What action do you propose to take about this, to make sure that those learners have much better outcomes across the board? eluned morgan am: First of all, just to make it clear that that is very much our intention. I think we have got work to do to make sure that we do reach that parity of esteem, but let's be clear that, in relation to these higher level apprenticeships, we were concerned that, actually, we weren't doing as well, perhaps, as we should be, which is why we commissioned Estyn to look at this specifically, and what it was that we were doing well, and what we needed to improve on. One of the things that we found is that we are doing very well in relation to foundation courses in terms of attainment—we've got 83 per cent attainment levels—but if you look at that at higher level apprenticeships, then we've got 77 per cent, so what is going wrong there? But, also, it's worth underlining the fact that, actually, we're still miles ahead of England, who are only reaching levels of about 61 per cent. So, we're already doing much better than England, but we're ambitious, and we want to make sure that if we are serious about this parity of esteem, how do we get there if we're not offering the kind of quality that we'd like to see in those higher level apprenticeships? So, some of the recommendations in that report, we'll be taking up. I think we're also very keen to make sure that people don't repeat learning that they've already done. So, there are lots of these recommendations that now we'll set in motion, and I think the important thing for us then is to understand that, in relation to who's doing well and who's not doing well in the FE sector, the bulk of where that finance goes is actually doing quite well. It's pushing some of the private sector providers where we need to actually make sure that the quality is where we want it to be, and is, very importantly, matching the needs of employers. So, we've constantly got to be looking at the courses: are they responding to the needs of the market and what employers are looking for? And that means revising the offer sometimes in terms of the courses. michelle brown am: Where are the difficulties arising—? You refer to difficulties arising with the private providers. What are those difficulties? eluned morgan am: Well, some of it is about, perhaps, not giving the kind of guidance that we'd like them to give in-house. So, they're perhaps not doing the kind of on-the-job work that we'd like them to do. So, I think it's making sure that, when they're in the workplace, they are still being pushed to attain those levels. But I think it's clear that what we need to do is to also listen to what the advisory board that we've set up in relation to apprenticeships is also asking us, and we've got the Confederation of British Industry advising us on that as well. michelle brown am: Do you have a service level agreement with the private providers? eluned morgan am: Yes. , the whole thing is under a tender procedure, obviously, and we will be revising that soon. There'll be a new apprenticeship procurement process that we'll be undergoing and starting to look at that process next year. michelle brown am: Would you be willing to share the targets under the SLA with the committee? eluned morgan am: Well, I think the—. I can't see that there'd be a problem with that, so I'm sure we could do that, but I think the way to make people move, quite often, is through making sure that you put the finances where they need to be, and then they're likely to shift. And, so, I think, in responding to this Estyn report, we can then build that into the next framework. If we're going to get parity of esteem, we've got to, probably, get more investment in. Could you say why there isn't more investment in degree, and there doesn't seem to be any investment in Master's-level apprenticeships at universities? eluned morgan am: Well, I think we've got to be careful that what happens is that the state doesn't pick up what, currently, people are prepared to pay for themselves, and, so, we've got to just make sure that that balance is right. So, what's happened in England, for example, is lots of people who were previously sitting Master of business administration courses, for example, are now switching into apprenticeship programmes. So, the system—it means that, previously, they were prepared to pay and now the state is paying or the employer's playing it in a slightly different way. So, I think we've got to just be aware about how—making sure that we don't get employers passing that responsibility that, actually, they have to upskill and to uptrain their workers and pass it back on to the state, whereas, actually, they need to step up as well as employers. julie morgan am: So, how are you going to judge that? How are you going to tell when, maybe, you should start putting some money in? eluned morgan am: Well, what we are doing is we're putting money into areas where we know there are skills shortages. So, we're focusing where we want those apprenticeships—and particularly at the higher level—to be. So, that's where we'll be prioritising our funding, and that's what we're doing already. kirsty williams am: And that's for degree-level apprenticeships, not Master's. And then, in terms of getting data, could you clarify the progress on developing outcome and destination data for higher apprenticeships? Your plan seems to suggest that data won't be available until 2020-21, at the end of the programme. eluned morgan am: And that's because we're only just starting on this, and it takes a long time for people to complete an apprenticeship. So, we won't have anybody going from the higher level apprenticeship into a destination until around 2021, so there's no point in measuring that until that point. And then, can you tell us when you'll publish Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol's new operational plan to develop post-16 Welsh-medium provision, which was presented during July, and clarify if the plan requires additional funding? eluned morgan am: So, there is a report that was published in July, and we are waiting for the operational actions from that report to be published, probably within the next month. In terms of the implementation of that programme, some of that journey has already begun, so they're not waiting for the report to—. We're not waiting for the actions to be very clearly set out; actually, some of that work has been done. I think what's clear, and something that's very much driving me as the Welsh language Minister, is this understanding that you reach 16 and you get this fall off a cliff in terms of the number of people who actually speak and use Welsh. So, that's the thing that we need to address, and that's why moving now into that area of further education is crucial. And the report, written by Delyth Evans, did suggest that we do need to move into this area but, actually, there wasn't necessarily a need for further funding in that area. But it may be something that we will consider, but it's something that we'll try and absorb, perhaps, from within the department. kirsty williams am: A relatively modest amount of money was being made available this year to be able to kick-start some of this work, but we are mindful of the recommendations from the Evans report. So, future allocations will have to reflect the priorities within the implementation plan, and that's not just money that goes directly to y coleg, but also trying to get better alignment between other budget lines that support the Welsh language, and making sure that all budget lines that could help on this agenda are aligned to the recommendations and the implementation report. Just on coleg cenedlaethol's extended remit, have you had—? I haven't read the Evans report, but is there anything in there about the role of increased use of Welsh in adult community learning, for example? That's a further education pot, isn't it? eluned morgan am: Yes, it is, and we are very much in touch with adult community learning, and they are aware of the responsibilities they have in relation to the Welsh language. suzy davies am: Oh, yes, I don't mean the higher education sector that's taken over responsibility for this; I'm talking about community learning, low level, just having Welsh there. And, you know, as you mentioned yourself, post 16, people stop using it, so getting it in wherever you can as part of a strategy. They're aware of that responsibility and we— suzy davies am: They're free to choose partners, then, are they, to help them deliver that? eluned morgan am: And also to work with the new organisation that we've set up to promote the learning of Welsh, in particular, that is based in Carmarthen. So, that's something also that's being driven, and they're working closely, I think, on this. So, for instance, up in Wrexham, if a student has gone into the college to do A-levels, then they may decide to do those A-levels through the medium of English. But if they were previously in a Welsh-medium school, they are actively encouraged—indeed, persuaded—to do their Welsh baccalaureate through the medium of Welsh. So, they may be doing their A-levels in English, but if they've come from a Welsh-medium school, the college proactively seeks them out and makes sure that there is provision for them to do their Welsh bac qualification through the medium of Welsh, or, for instance, they are working very hard to form tutor groups. So, the tutor group—you might be doing your qualifications in English, but your tutor group will be a Welsh-medium tutor group, so that you are placed with other students who have come from Welsh-medium schools, and your tutor does all that tutor work through the medium of Welsh. So, there are other ways in which we can continue to help support children's linguistic ability, even if they have made a decision not to formally study their A-levels, for instance, or a course, through the medium of Welsh, and we're constantly looking at new ways. I think one particular aspect of the market—if we call it that word—that we're interested in are those students who've been to Welsh-medium schools, but at 16, perhaps, as I say, decide to go to a college. So, for instance, here in Cardiff, looking at childcare, and the opportunity—you know, there's a sector where we know we need a Welsh-medium workforce. kirsty williams am: So, again, it's trying to target those children, and track them from a previous Welsh-medium education into a college, capturing their language skills, and finding ways in which they can use them. Merthyr college—there's a Welsh-medium champion in Merthyr college actively looking for children who have come from a Welsh-medium background, and they are allocated roles as Welsh-medium champions within the college, to promote. So, there are lots of innovative ways, especially in the FE sector, that they're looking to keep children's linguistic skills relevant, and they're using them, even if they make that decision to switch the language of their tuition. My question was about community learning, where it's essentially older people who perhaps are coming back to education in a way that wasn't as formal as it was before, if I can put it like that—so we don't lose sight of them as well. I've still got an abiding worry that there's a cohort in the middle here of people who we might lose, and maybe pass on bad attitudes towards the Welsh language to their children, despite the fact that those children now have huge opportunities to absorb Welsh language skills and make the most of them. I'd like to ask about the regional skills partnership—partnerships, I should say—because they are having a direct influence now on courses and provision in FE, and with degree apprenticeships in universities as well. You, I believe, received the Graystone review back in March, so could you tell us a bit about what was in it, and what the recommendations are? eluned morgan am: So, some of the recommendations—. He did suggest that, actually, what they need to be producing is much shorter, sharper, focused reports. There was a suggestion of a lack of transparency, in terms of reporting from those regional skills partnerships, and that's obviously something now that we've undertaken to review. And there, I think, is an understanding that what we need to do now is to put in place those changes. But, on the whole, what we've done is to reinforce our commitment to the regional skills partnerships, and in particular now, through allocating £10 million to further education colleges to respond directly to the wishes and the desires of the regional skills partnerships, you can see actually the status of the regional skills partnerships has just grown significantly. So, you've seen quite a dramatic shift, I think, in the respect for regional skills partnerships over the past year. llyr gruffydd am: So, are there any recommendations in terms of governance as well— eluned morgan am: Yes. llyr gruffydd am: —because, clearly, there may have been concerns about the way that people ended up being members of the partnerships? You touched on transparency—clearly, that's an issue as well. eluned morgan am: So, on governance, I think there was an understanding that that needs to be looked at again, and that we need to get the right people around the table. And what is interesting is, I think, because it was a voluntary approach, because now people can see an outcome, we're getting different people now really showing an interest in being a part of the regional skills partnerships. So, governance is something again we're going to be addressing and following up the recommendations on in that Graystone review. Is there anything to add to that? huw morris: Well, I was just going to say, I don't see why we couldn't share the review with you. llyr gruffydd am: The normal course of action would be, of course, to have published it and then to publish a Government response. Any reason why that wasn't done? I find it quite strange that you're saying that you're actually actioning the report and you still haven't published it. There's nothing to hide here, so why wouldn't we? We're the people who commissioned the report— llyr gruffydd am: I'm the one asking the questions. huw morris: May I just say: we ask a number of people periodically to comment on what we do, and agencies we work with do the same. I don't suppose we'd anticipated there would be the interest in this issue that there is and so, as the Minister said, there's no problem that I can see with that. llyr gruffydd am: And do you have a timeline in terms of by when you want to introduce some of the reforms that you're looking at now, because of this report? eluned morgan am: Some of them have already been introduced, so we're not waiting. The transparency issue that I think there was a bit of concern about—that's already been introduced. So, it's just about making sure that people understand what is going on in these regional skills partnerships. I think that's really important— llyr gruffydd am: Well, quite, given the influence that they have now. Just another short one on the regional skills partnerships, really: how effective are they in supporting the planning and delivery of Welsh-medium provision in post-16? eluned morgan am: I think there's more we can do in relation to that. So, if you think about the care sector, for example, what we do need is more people who have those skills to speak through the medium of Welsh in the care sector. And, coming back to the point that was made earlier, what we're doing now is looking at the curriculum: to what extent can we include—? You don't have to do your whole course through the medium of Welsh, but there are aspects that would be very useful. One of the things that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol are looking at is building the resources that will be needed in order to mainstream those into, in particular, those front-line service areas where we have a skills shortage. Cabinet Secretary, you know that this committee has taken a very keen interest in the emotional and mental health of our young people. In the summer, the English universities Minister made an announcement about the development of a new mental health charter. Is Welsh Government expecting Welsh universities to sign up to that charter or are you planning to work on your own? kirsty williams am: Thank you for raising this. I think it's really important that whilst for many, many, many young people moving away from home and starting their degree course is an incredibly exciting time and something they look forward to hugely, it can bring significant stresses with it, especially for first-year students, who, as I said, are moving away, perhaps are suddenly responsible for finances in a way they've never been responsible for, for all the day-to-day living that perhaps they've relied on other people to assist them with. So, it is right that we look at how we can support health and well-being for students, especially mental health and mental resilience. So, I very much welcome the work on the mental health charter, and HEFCW are engaged and keeping a very close eye on what's going on to see the opportunities for Welsh universities to participate in that. But this was on a recent agenda item that I had with HEFCW, and indeed with the vice-chancellors, when I met them last week, or the week before last. So, they are developing their own strategic approach to well-being and health for students, which will be underpinned by a co-created action plan with the universities themselves on supporting students with mental health problems in particular. So, the strategic approach and the action plan are being developed by HEFCW at the moment and HEFCW are also meeting with colleagues from England and Scotland to see the opportunities for a universal approach across the UK to supporting students. The universities, when I met with them recently, all shared a commitment to do better in this particular area. One, because it's the right thing to do, but, actually, stopping people from dropping out and not completing their courses obviously is of a financial benefit to the institution. So, it's actually the right thing to do for their students, they want to do it for that reason, but, actually, there is a strong financial underpinning to ensure that students complete their studies. So, it's looking at, again, each university looking at individual approaches of how better they can do that. But it's not just responding to students who become unwell, it's actually, 'What can we do to in the campus to maintain good mental health?' So, rather than just trying to fix a problem once it's occurred, it's 'What can we do?' And you'll be aware of individual institutions taking different approaches. It's not something that we dictate, but individual institutions—when they do exams, how work is assessed and marked and graded—are taking different steps to promote well-being, as well as then responding to situations where students become unwell. We do know that financial pressures can be a source of huge stress for students, so we are constantly working with the Student Loans Company to make sure that the services that they offer to people are as good as they can be, and that there are no unnecessary delays that, perhaps, put a student under pressure or give students worries about their financial situation. And I would argue our Diamond reforms, which allow students access to a living wage—for some students, completely by a grant, for some students, a combination of grant and loan, with no expectation at all that your parents will contribute, which is not the case in other places where there is an expectation of parental contribution—that actually, hopefully, addresses some of those financial worries that some students may have. But I am aware that if people are waiting for their grant or people are waiting for their payments, that can be a source of stress. Are you able to give us any indication of timescale by which you'd expect HEFCW and the individual universities to actually have this work in place? kirsty williams am: I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer— kirsty williams am: You're right, that is the first answer. dawn bowden am: But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football? eluned morgan am: Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. , this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute? eluned morgan am: Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect? eluned morgan am: In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that? eluned morgan am: Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are. llyr gruffydd am: Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally. llyr gruffydd am: Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it? eluned morgan am: Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on. llyr gruffydd am: The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that? eluned morgan am: Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future. lynne neagle am: In relation to the pay dispute, it's the committee's understanding that ColegauCymru's position is that, in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers, an additional 3.5 per cent or £10.1 million is needed. Are you aware of that being their position? eluned morgan am: We are aware of their position, yes. hefin david am: You will have had, Cabinet Secretary, a letter from Professor Colin Riordan on 26 September regarding essay mills, in which he refers to the other letter that was sent by him and 39 vice-chancellors regarding essay mills and the fact that it's legalised cheating. In the letter—it was actually to me—that was copied to you, he says: 'We have requested the UK Government commission the QAA to publish a draft Bill by or before the beginning of the next parliamentary session. We've also requested the Department for Education give support to the establishment of a UK centre for academic integrity, which would research, analyse and combat academic misconduct. Any support that the Welsh Government can provide in this regard will also be appreciated, so I'm copying this letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Education.' Can you just give me your opinions on that, please? kirsty williams am: I think 'legalised cheating' is a polite way of describing what goes on. My officials have been in touch with their counterparts in the UK Government to see if we can co-ordinate a UK approach, which I think is necessary. I don't think there's any merit in us trying to do this on our own; it would be pointless. I hope that we can agree a formal approach as quickly as possible, and I will take every opportunity—. We're trying to establish a meeting with the UK Minister for HE before Christmas, and I will take every opportunity that I can to ensure that we can take some very, very strong action in this regard. I want people who attend our universities and who work hard to achieve the grades that they get not to be disadvantaged by people who look to find an easy way out and are not willing to put—. I think it undermines the individual effort of individual students who are doing the right things, as well as the integrity of our system. I'm proud of the quality of the system that we have in the Welsh HE sector, and I want that maintained. And in addition to the specifics regarding the quality assurance agency and the proposed centre for academic integrity, let's be clear: what we're talking about it outlawing those websites that offer to write essays for cash. [Laughter.] My understanding is— hefin david am: Well, they get through the system and they guarantee—. The websites, and I've experienced this, and I mentioned it in First Minister's questions— kirsty williams am: You did. hefin david am: The websites say to you, 'Unless you tell anyone, you won't get caught', and students are believing that. kirsty williams am: Absolutely, and, unlike you, I have no experience of this myself— hefin david am: Well, I have experience of it. [Laughter.] kirsty williams am: I'm so old, Hefin, that such internet sites didn't exist when I was a student. [Laughter.] But, you know, I'm sure you listened to it too: a recent article, on a radio station, where, actually, it was an experiment just like you did—a student deliberately went through this process to expose, but, actually, what they got in return wasn't even very good. It was a particularly poor essay on the portrayal of women in Victorian literature, so they weren't even getting very good value for their money. [Laughter.] But, clearly, this is a terrible and abhorrent practice in our system, and, as I said, I will do everything that I can to work with colleagues across the United Kingdom to find a solution to this. If I thought it would help if we did it on our own, we could do that, but it won't help if we act unilaterally. hefin david am: And just—final question—with regard to the representations you've made, do you feel that the UK Government is open to this course of action? kirsty williams am: Well, officials are the ones who have had those direct, face-to-face conversations, rather than me. Huw, would you like to comment? huw morris: We haven't had anything formally, but I understand from what I've heard in England that there is an interest to do something. Whether that will take the form of a Bill in the timescale you've outlined, I'm not sure, but as the Minister said, we'll be exploring that with officials through the ministerial meetings. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering all our questions? As usual, you'll have a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education regarding eligibility criteria for free school meals. Paper to note 2: a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3: also from that Minister, which is his response to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on the Bill. And the final paper to note is from Mind Cymru regarding the task and finish group on a whole-school approach to mental health, and I will update Members on that when we go into private. Happy to note those? Item 4, then: can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan and Dawn Bowden discussed the negotiation process of ColegauCymru. They agreed to closely monitor the situation and wait for the outcome of the negotiations before taking any further action. They had already engaged with ColegauCymru and were aware of the concerns raised by the unions. However, they were uncertain about the potential settlement at this stage. Eluned Morgan expressed the desire for pay equality in teaching, but whether the pay increase should apply to all staff or only teaching staff was a matter for ColegauCymru to negotiate and decide upon. They would wait for the outcomes of these discussions.

What is Eluned Morgan's opinion on the pay dispute situation and how did she respond to the question of whether she wishes to see greater pay equality between schoolteachers and FE?

so first of all , just to kind of make sure that we all know each other , marketing: marketing: And I'm Andrew and I'm our marketing user interface: I'm Craig and I'm User Interface . so we're designing a new remote control and Oh I have to record who's here actually . So that's David , Andrew and Craig , isn't it ? And you all arrived on time . project manager: Is that what everybody got ? industrial designer: Did you get the same thing ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: marketing: charac favourite characteristics of it ? Is that right ? project manager: Yeah . marketing: right , well basically high priority for any animal for me is that they be willing to take a lot of physical affection from their family . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Then they're small cute and furry , and when planet of the apes becomes real , I'm gonna be up there with them . project manager: You can take as long over this as you like , because we haven't got an awful lot to discuss . industrial designer: project manager: Ok oh we do we do user interface: project manager: Don't feel like you're in a rush , anyway . , well anyway , I don't know , it's just the first animal I can think off the top of my head . project manager: Do you ? user interface: project manager: Oh that's very good of you . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: he's very friendly and cheery and always pleased to see you , and very kind of affectionate and and he's quite quite wee as well so you know he can doesn't take up too much space . marketing: project manager: and And he does a funny thing where he chases his tail as well , industrial designer: project manager: which is quite amusing , so marketing: Is he aware that th it's his own cha tail he's chasing ? project manager: It is . He only does it after he's had his dinner marketing: project manager: and he'll just all of a sudden just get up and start chasing his tail 'round the living room . project manager: Yeah , so marketing: Probably when he was little he got lots of attention for doing it and has forever been conditioned . so according to the brief we're gonna be selling this remote control for twenty five Euro , and we're aiming to make fifty million Euro . And we don't want it to cost any more than twelve fifty Euros , so fifty percent of the selling price . project manager: because it's probably up to the the the retailer to sell it for whatever price they want . project manager: do you think the fact that it's going to be sold internationally will have a bearing on how we design it at all ? marketing: Yes . marketing: Well right away I'm wondering if there's th th , like with D_V_D_ players , if there are zones . industrial designer: It does make sense from maybe the design point of view 'cause you have more complicated characters like European languages , then you need more buttons . I'm thinking the price might might appeal to a certain market in one region , whereas in another it'll be different , so project manager: What , just like in terms of like the wealth of the country ? marketing: Just a chara just a characteristic of the project manager: Like how much money people have to spend on things like ? marketing: Just Or just like , basic product podi positioning , the twenty five Euro remote control might be a big hit in London , might not be such a big hit in Greece , who knows , project manager: Aye , I see what you mean , yeah . marketing: Right away I'm making some kind of assumptions about what what information we're given here , project manager: . marketing: thinking , 'kay trendy probably means something other than just basic , project manager: Yeah . so I'm wondering right away , is selling twenty five Euros , is that sort of the thi is this gonna to be like the premium product kinda thing or project manager: Yeah , yeah . project manager: Well twenty five Euro , that's that's about like eighteen pounds or something , isn't it ? Or no , is it as much as that ? marketing: project manager: I dunno , I've never bought a remote control , so I don't know how how good a remote control that would get you . project manager: But yeah , I suppose it has to look kind of cool and gimmicky . well d Does anybody have anything to add to to the finance issue at all ? Thin marketing: Do we have any other background information on like how that compares to other project manager: No , actually . That would be useful , though , marketing: other project manager: wouldn't it , if you knew like what your money would get you now . Yeah , interesting thing about discussing production of a remote control for me is that l as you point out , I just don't think of remote controls as somethin something people consciously assess in their purchasing habits . marketing: Like so sort of like how do you I one one way of looking at it would be , well the people producing television sets , maybe they have to buy remote controls . Or another way is maybe people who have T_V_ sets are really fed up with their remote control and they really want a better one or something . user interface: I know My parents went out and bought remote controls because they got fed up of having four or five different remote controls for each things the house . marketing: Okay so Right , so in function one of the priorities might be to combine as many uses project manager: Yeah . Right , so do you think that should be like a main design aim of our remote control d you know , marketing: I think so . project manager: do your your satellite and your regular telly and your V_C_R_ and everything ? marketing: Yeah , yeah . Well like , maybe what we could use is a sort of like a example of a successful other piece technology is palm palm pilots . They're gone from being just like little sort of scribble boards to cameras , M_P_ three players , telephones , project manager: So , like , I wonder if we might add something new to the to the remote control market , project manager: Yeah . marketing: such as the lighting in your house , or project manager: Or even like , you know , notes about what you wanna watch . Like you might put in there oh I want to watch such and such and look a marketing: Yeah , yeah . Like , p personally for me , at home I've I've combined the the audio video of my television set and my D_V_D_ player and my C_D_ player . marketing: So it's sort of ironic that that then they're in there you know , the sound and everything it's just one system . project manager: okay , I'd wel we're gonna have to wrap up pretty quickly in the next couple of minutes . so anything else anybody wants to add about what they don't like about remote controls they've used , what they would really like to be part of this new one at all ? industrial designer: And you keep losing them . industrial designer: it's usually quite small , or when you want it right , it slipped behind the couch marketing: project manager: W You get those ones where you can , if you like , whistle or make a really high pitched noise they beep . project manager: There is that something we'd want to include , do you think ? marketing: project manager: Dunno . Actually had a cable between it and the T_V_ project manager: marketing: and big like buttons that sort of like , like on a blender or something . marketing: And , you know , when I think about what they are now , it's better , but actually it's still kind of , I dunno , like a massive junky thing on the table . marketing: 'Cause it could b it could it could be that f it could be that functionally that doesn't make it any better , but that just the appeal of of not having project manager: It looks better . marketing: You know , these days there's a r pe things in people's homes are becoming more and more like chic , you know . project manager: Right , well so just to wrap up the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes . so inbetween now and then , as the industrial designer , you're gonna be working on you know the actual working design of it industrial designer: Yep . for user interface , technical functions , I guess that's you know like what we've been talking about , what it'll actually do . and marketing executive , you'll be just thinking about what it actually what , you know , what requirements it has to has to fulfil and you'll all get instructions emailed to you , I guess . marketing: project manager: Yeah , so it's th the functional design stage is next , I guess . Before we wrap up , just to make sure we're all on the same page here , project manager: marketing: do we We were given sort of an example of a coffee machine or something , project manager: -huh , yeah . marketing: right ? Well , are we at ma right now on the assumption that our television remote control may have features which go beyond the television ? Or are we keeping sort of like a a design commitment to television features ? project manager: Th Okay , well just very quickly marketing: I I don't know . project manager: you probably want some kind of unique selling point of it , so , you know marketing: Okay . project manager: Right , okay , we'll that's that's the end of the meeting , then <doc-sep>project manager: And you are ? In the project ? industrial designer: in the project I'm supposed to be the technic . user interface: My name is Hamed Getabdar , and I'm going to be Interface Designer in this project . project manager: So , so today we are doing a short meeting to present the project , so We are gooding we are going to present the tool we are we are going to use during all this project . We are talking about the project plan , and we are going to to discuss about st our first ideas and so on , and , yeah . So it should be , of course , new and original , and it should be trendy , and user friendly . So w it's we will try to do our best , and hopefully come with something very new and that people want to buy . So , So what's what are we going to do during this all this project ? So it's more like we are going to do inv individual work all in o in o our specialities and we are going to meet each other quite often to discuss and to find a good way . so now we are going to to get used t to to the tools we are going to use all during all this project . project manager: For example we can try to write what is our our favourite animal and write the f our favourite characteristics about it . Well sh should I draw the picture of the animal ? project manager: Yeah , yeah , you can draw the picture , of course . I had to first write it down because I am not absolutely sure if I can draw it , but ah . Can you recognise it as a bird ? project manager: marketing: industrial designer: Okay it's your turn to marketing: Okay , okay . project manager: user interface: marketing: I probably like cats the most because they're cuddly and furry and playful . C could we put it here , to make it as straight as possible ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: Ah probably not . Should I clean ? marketing: user interface: Okay , I think like horses because they are strong and beautiful , so if I want to write it here , I think I can . industrial designer: You won't draw them , or ? project manager: You can draw it , if you want . I'm shameful project manager: marketing: Oh that's good , it's good . project manager: so we can start today to have a first idea of what we want to do what are our experiments with remote control , and any idea ? So , if you have some experience , good or bad , with remote controls you can share it and say what you f what is your idea . marketing: Well , from experience , I've had remote controls in the past that have had very they've had lots and lots of buttons and they've been very small , and it's been very hard to to to use , because there's so many buttons , and you know it's very hard to see which buttons do what , and the buttons are very small and very hard to press . and and normally you only every use , you know , on a T_V_ remote you only ever use , mostly , you know , f four or f six buttons . first would be that in current remote controls there is no back light , so if you are if you are playing with this in the dark room it's it's probably worth to to have something like back light . industrial designer: And maybe it could be also dependant on the the amount of of light in the room , so that if if it's in the day it doesn't need to be back lighted because it works on the battery , so . And the second thing , f second point from me would be that in a normal remote control there is there are two buttons for volume control . marketing: Is that because the of the discrete volume levels , or is that industrial designer: Yeah , but I can reach In one second I can mute it down , or or make a high volume . project manager: Are you not afraid that if you take your remote control you can move the slide and it could the the volume can go up very quickly marketing: Yeah . project manager: and it can industrial designer: If it drops to the floor then it starts to scream . project manager: Yeah , also if y when you take the the remote control , for example on the table , you take it and you push the button and everything is very loud , and industrial designer: Yeah , f It depends what what you feel about that . industrial designer: Yeah but we can we can think of these things afterwards , but if you have some more notes on that . project manager: Yeah so you can user interface: I Yeah , project manager: Do you have something ? user interface: just a simple experience . I I prefer remote control working with radio waves , because remote control working with infra-red rays you should you should you should keep it in a specific direction and then try it hard to tune . the the interface interface developer will work on the on the design of the remote control , start to to have new idea and industrial designer: Which i which is Hamed , ? project manager: read about industrial designer: Okay . project manager: So , marketing: project manager: For the User Interface Designer , which is Hamed , user interface: project manager: And for the Marketing Manager , I dunno , okay , which is Bob , you are going to try to to find the user requirements f for the remote control

The interface developer and user interface designer were assigned to work on the design and technical functions of the remote control, respectively. The marketing team was responsible for gathering user requirements. At the first meeting, the group members introduced themselves, with Laura as the Project Manager, David as the Industrial Designer, Andrew as the Marketing expert, and Craig as the User Interface specialist.

Summarize the task allocation and job roles for each team member.

Well , of course we're new to each other , so I'd like to get acquainted first . So let's do that first , Let's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? You're our Marketing Expert . And I will see what the user wants and what we can do with the new produ project product . industrial designer: My name is Xavier Juergens , I'm the Industrial Designer , and there are three main questions that I have to find an answer to today . First one is what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is the apparatus made of , marketing: . So , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . It's We're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . Everybody has a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about So I'm gonna keep this short , since we had a technical problem . Every meeting we everybody can present their their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the SMARTboards here . I'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it's actually it's very easy . And so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wanna change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . We're just gonna keep using this board all the time , so I think it will be it's very clear for everyone , I suppose . Yeah , just just just stuff that you wanna share , just put it in the in the project folder , like I put my presentation now . I'll put the the minutes of every meeting , I'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . user interface: Well , I'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so I'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: Draw us a technical animal . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: This thing isn't doing what I'm What I want . project manager: marketing: user interface: I'll just finish up real soon , because I'm marketing: user interface: So it doesn't really look like a dolphin , project manager: Anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should It It's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . Do that in my spare time , so that's basically an project manager: What do you like ? Okay . It's big , it's strong , so Oh , it's a little bit user interface: It's not really that responsive , no . project manager: user interface: You picked a hard one , didn't you ? industrial designer: My drawing skills are really bad , so . project manager: marketing: What ? They are industrial designer: They are really bad , my drawing skills . industrial designer: I'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: these are stripes . project manager: What does it want ? industrial designer: well , basically it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . industrial designer: And it always goes for security , in seeking a hide spot and and doing everything , marketing: . So marketing: project manager: I'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so That's the coolest ant ever . user interface: You've done this before , haven't you ? industrial designer: project manager: I love to draw ants . You're supposed to make i make it different from from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . Well I guess we have a little little time extra , but Just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . What are y What are your first ideas for the new product ? What user interface: Well , I basically had a question . Do Are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? Is it just the T_V_ or do we want to in project manager: The project I got was just for a T_V_ remote control . marketing: But user interface: thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . user interface: No rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: Okay , so very intuitive design , I guess . So that was something I wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . Do we want people who are disabled in any way to , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: Yeah , we want I suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . So I think , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but I think it's a little take it into consideration . industrial designer: Only one thing that has to be added according to me is the the material it is made of , it should be something light . industrial designer: That's it speaks for itself , project manager: It should be light , okay . project manager: What do we This Quick What we're going to Selling price , twenty five Euros . Do you have anything you you came up with yet ? About marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: about what ? Marketing ? project manager: Marketing I'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . You have anything to share ? Or else we'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: no , not really yet , project manager: since we're supposed to stop . marketing: and I will say it project manager: Anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything

The manager introduced the SMARTboards, a new technical device, to the team members to enhance their presentation and information sharing tasks. To familiarize themselves with the device, the team was asked to draw animals, with each member selecting a different animal that symbolized their perspective on the product. One member chose a dolphin to represent freedom, as they had a deep love for the ocean and enjoyed swimming in their free time.

Summarize the members' acquaintance with the usage of SMARTboards and the reason for choosing to draw dolphins during the process.

lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Suzy Davies to the committee, and to thank Mark Reckless and Darren Millar, who have left us, for their service and hard work as members of the committee. We will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, and Eluned Morgan AM, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning. Can I just ask you to introduce your officials for the record, please? kirsty williams am: Bore da, Lynne, and thank you for the invitation to join you. Eluned and I are joined this morning by Huw Morris, who's the group director at SHELL—skills, higher education and lifelong learning—and Marie Knox, who is deputy director, overseeing European transition. I'd like to ask you both, if that's okay, a little bit about preparedness. But if I could start with higher education, I understand that—I don't know, it must be about 18 months ago now—Ken Skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done. Presumably, one of those was HE, because of the—well, Welsh Government had a presence, and still does, in Brussels, related to higher education. I don't know if you've got any comments on that research, or whether it's been brought to your attention yet. kirsty williams am: Well, Suzy, following the vote, I was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education, to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact. So, in terms of preparedness, we started that group in the September, and that work from that group, which includes both HE and FE, has been instrumental in helping the Government form its views, which were articulated in the Government's White Paper, 'Securing Wales' Future'. There has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in London and Europe becomes a little bit more clear, then it becomes a little less clear, and then a little bit more clear, but, bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field, we have been refining those approaches. Each institution has been looking at their own institution, because, as you can imagine, although we have an overview of the sector, the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure, for instance, to the number of European Union students that they have at their college, or the work that they might be doing with Horizon 2020, or their success—and there has been considerable success in the HE field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the EU, in a 'no deal' or in a 'deal' scenario, is very, very different. suzy davies am: Maybe just to use the 'no deal' scenario is probably the easiest, isn't it? kirsty williams am: The 'no deal'? suzy davies am: Well, yes, because that's the worst-case scenario, so let's look at that one. huw morris: As the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, the higher education Brexit working group's been meeting since September 2016 and has been looking at that in general. More recently, when the prospect of no deal became talked about, officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that. As you'll be aware, the funding for much of the activity is secured, we believe, even under a 'no deal' scenario, until December 2020; that's a letter we had from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I think the research you're referring to may be research that Cardiff University has been doing with the Bevan Foundation and others. suzy davies am: Well, that's really helpful because my understanding was that this Cardiff University research had superseded all those nine sector analyses. Certainly, there are published papers by Max Munday and a team at Cardiff University on the impact of Brexit on the Welsh economy, but for HE and FE and apprenticeship provision, it's as the Cabinet Secretary outlined. suzy davies am: So, are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise, for example? For HE and FE for that matter. kirsty williams am: Well, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales have been doing some specific work; I can't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared. We have been doing some broad analysis, as I said, for the sector, looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk, bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution, a principle that they guard really jealously, and rightly so. So, we have been, as Huw said, because the prospect of a 'no deal' has become, perhaps, more to the forefront, officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us, as people who fund part of their activity, that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios. So, for instance, we continue to work with officials in Westminster around Erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal' scenario, what a UK stand-alone project would look like, the impacts of a 'no deal' on Horizon 2020. So, we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that. suzy davies am: Well, if there is something that's shareable, I'm sure we'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: Anything that we've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with FE, actually, because, of course, we haven't got a HEFCW for FE; you're doing that regulation yourself. I'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within Welsh Government, and we would be able to see that then. suzy davies am: Yes, because the student thing isn't such an issue, is it? eluned morgan am: You've got to remember that the FE colleges are much more anchored within their communities, they're much more localised, and so, for example, the number of EU students in these colleges is significantly lower. The number of staff in these colleges—I think they've analysed that there are only about 71 people. So, we're keeping in touch with them and we're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the Home Office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. suzy davies am: What are they telling you about European social fund funding, though, because, as you say, they're locally anchored—the impact on FE of ESF funding is probably more significant than the issues we're talking about with higher education. How are you finding this out? Is this through one-to-one conversations? eluned morgan am: We are engaging with them all, and, obviously, we're engaging with ColegauCymru, who've done their own analysis, and what we found, in particular, is that the real problems are probably in relation to ESF funding and apprenticeships. But what you've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial. eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives, or if there's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of Brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer. So, it's those kinds of things, but at the moment I think it's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the FE sector just in relation to apprenticeships. suzy davies am: Can I just come back finally on that, before handing over? In both your areas of responsibility, there's going to be an impact on Welsh Government in how it responds to that, as well. Can you tell me a little bit about the European transition team, which I think is about building resilience within the Welsh Government to deal with the impacts of Brexit? Is that a formal arrangement you have with officials? I don't really know much about this team, but it seems to meet fortnightly to get Welsh Government ready for Brexit, so could you just give us some clues on this? marie knox: Yes, in terms of the European transition team, that's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on European transition. So, I attend that group in relation to higher education and further education, and, obviously, other representatives in terms of agriculture, transport, the economy, et cetera. suzy davies am: It's great that you're on that group, but what does it actually do? That's the bit I wasn't sure about. marie knox: I guess it provides the governance structure for the Welsh Government as a whole in relation to European transition. So, individual departments do their own work, and the European transition team provides the governance structure, and, also, they lead on the discussions with the Department for Exiting the European Union, No. 10, the Joint Ministerial Committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements. This discussion between HEFCW and higher education, these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come, and the work that the Government is doing with FE, I suspect, is happening at an organisational level. So, I just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students. kirsty williams am: So, we have a close working relationship with the National Union of Students. They have been very clear, and I think there is a huge amount of consensus between the Welsh Government, what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for. You'll have seen, only earlier this week, the very powerful campaign by NUS Wales about the importance of Erasmus+ arrangements. Many of us, I know, have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies, and there's a lot to be gained from it. We've been very clear from the outset, as have the sector and the student voice, about the importance of participation in that scheme. Our HE institutions, to a greater extent than FE, have faculty staff from the EU—it runs at about 11 per cent. They want to have the best teachers, they want access to the best learning opportunities, and we've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff, making sure we send very clear messages that they're very welcome and we value their contribution. Again, as far as we've been able to, we've been able to give messages about the security of funding for European students for the next academic year. We're working to the limits of what I feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from Westminster. So, we've been working closely with the student voice, and I think, Llyr, what's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the Government, the institutions and student voice. So, that is making sure we send very clear messages about Wales's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both EU and international students, that we value the contribution of faculty, and that we want to be able to continue in Horizon 2020. That's especially important if we're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system, as well as Erasmus+. As I said, there's a consensus, I think, between the Government, the institutions and the students about what we need the UK Government to achieve for us. lynne neagle am: Before we move on to student recruitment, it's increasingly the view of many experts that we're heading for a 'no deal' Brexit. Can I ask both of you what specific plans you've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal' Brexit happening and us crashing out next spring? eluned morgan am: Well, I think it's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal' Brexit, but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like, and I think that scenario planning is starting to happen. So, in relation to FE, what we do have is funding—ESF funding—which the UK Government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. So, in March next year, if there is no deal, the immediate impact on FE is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared. The problem then becomes: what exactly is the deal with the EU in future, because we will have some kind of relationship, and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally, and industries, to provide that link between training needs? So, the colleges, basically, are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships, and so if the number of companies reduces, then that is likely to have an impact. Farming is obviously one that we are concerned about, because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal. Health and social care—obviously, we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are EU citizens. What is the impact? Are they going to feel unwelcome? Are they likely, then, to return home? Where will that skills gap, therefore, be? So, that's a problem for us. So, one of the things we're doing is we've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers, 'What is it that you need in terms of skills development?' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need. So, rather than them just getting people through the college system, who are easy to get in because they're doing courses that they're excited about, let's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages. So, that is a new structure that we've developed that is already having an impact; there's a £10 million project there. In manufacturing, obviously, if there's no deal, the rules of origin, that could have an immediate impact. Just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there; and hospitality and tourism. So, those are the sectors we have most concerns about, and all of them have very strong links to the FE sector. kirsty williams am: From the HE perspective, from a point of principle, we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal. Although the prospect of no deal, maybe, has risen up the agenda, we have got to be consistent in our messages to the Westminster Government: we need a deal. If that worst-case scenario was to happen, because of the underwrite guarantee, actually, for European regional development fund and European social fund programmes in the HE sector, it would be business as usual. And because of the current underwrite guarantee, the forthcoming bids for Erasmus and Horizon 2020 would be covered, but they would be the last applications that could be made. You'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee, but from my understanding and our understanding of it, that would only give us third-country status for Horizon 2020 and Erasmus. What that does mean is that we would have limited access to the Horizon 2020 programme, and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the Welsh HE sector under that programme, that would mean that we'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work, because that's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing. As I've already said, we have made a guarantee for EU student support for the next academic year, but, without clarity from the Treasury, I don't think it would be prudent of me to commit Welsh Government to anything further than that. What can we do? You'll be aware that we have been working with Universities Wales to access resources under the European transition fund, under the Global Wales programme, to look to boost international marketing of the HE sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector. And we continue to look at other opportunities within the EU transition pot of money to assist the universities and the FE sector in that regard. We also continue to look to respond to the Reid review proposals, about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with UK Research and Innovation to make sure that, with any research money that comes out of that negotiation, Wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that. I'm going to, because we've got a lot of questions, appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible, please. hefin david am: How does the Welsh Government account for the fact that EU student applications in Wales this year—that Wales is the only country in the UK to have seen a significant drop? kirsty williams am: Okay, well, I think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until, first of all, November and then the true picture, because some institutions, as you would know, have two admissions dates—we won't get the full picture until the spring. I think it was inevitable, given the change in Government policy with regard to student support, which had previously allowed European students to benefit from a tuition fee grant, and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them, that that has had an impact on EU recruitment, and there's no point trying to hide from that. hefin david am: So, together with leaving the EU, that's a double-whammy effect that's hitting Wales harder than the rest of the UK. kirsty williams am: It just puts us in the same position as EU students applying to England, but it was inevitable. It was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy, and I think we see that reflected in the initial figure, although, as I said, we won't get the true picture until the first census in November, and then, ultimately, the final picture in the spring. hefin david am: How concerned are you by that? kirsty williams am: Clearly, we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the EU and from around the world. The fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on European Union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that Wales, up until now, has been successful in recruiting international students. So, the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students, because, actually, international students outside of the EU make up a bigger proportion of students not from the UK who come to our institutions. hefin david am: That's a fair point, but it's unfortunate timing, though, isn't it? kirsty williams am: I think, from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our HE sector, then both my priority and, I would say, the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of Diamond, which is what we have done. What about the fact that we've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the UK with regard to high, medium and low-tariff universities? We've got one high-tariff university, and they're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of EU students. Are you concerned about that balance of profile in the HE sector? kirsty williams am: As I said in answer to your question earlier, there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to EU and international students. I would argue that it's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector. If you look, for instance, at Swansea University—if you look at the work Swansea University has done, that shows you what is possible. hefin david am: What is Swansea's success, then? What can we learn from Swansea? kirsty williams am: What I think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what I think is really important is that we look to—. It's a combination, I believe, for all universities, of getting their offer right—so, having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study. It's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion, so high quality ratings for teaching, as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students. So, it's all about getting the offer right and providing what students, both domestically and internationally, want. hefin david am: But the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you've just outlined is happening in Swansea but it isn't happening in other institutions, and they're seeing a drop. kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, I think what we can see from Cardiff, Swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector. kirsty williams am: As I said, what we can see is that, if you get the offer right, I think we have something very special that the HE sector can market itself on. llyr gruffydd am: Just coming back to the drop in EU students, you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that's available to students coming here. So, does that suggest that, under the current regime, Wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we've lost that advantage? I know we're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system, but really we're not much different to England in terms of fees now, so why would they come to Wales as opposed to going anywhere else? kirsty williams am: I think you're right; there was an added incentive, potentially, to come to a Welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant. That advantage is no longer there, which is why we need to work alongside the sector, as we're doing with the Global Wales programme, to increase their ability to market HE in the round across the world. There's something for everybody, whether you want to be in a city like Cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like Aber. So, we've got a lot to offer and that's why it's really important that, although we have seen a change in the tuition fees, which may have an impact, we are investing with universities, for instance, in the Global Wales programme. lynne neagle am: In terms of the drop that we've seen in Wales, which is differential amongst institutions, will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent Brexit exacerbating that? kirsty williams am: We are working with HEFCW and individual institutions, as I said, to test their preparedness. We can't tell them what to do in that sense, but we can, because of our governance arrangements and HEFCW's monitoring arrangements, continue to test with them. I meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with HEFCW representatives, and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda. julie morgan am: The additional £6.4 million that went to HEFCW in the 2017-18 year, which I think you say is partly because of Brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges, what do you expect to see as a result of that spending? kirsty williams am: That funding was allocated, as I said, to enable HEFCW to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes, because we've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds, and the initial implications of EU transition. It was allocated as part of HEFCW's overall grant in aid, and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector. The money was brought forward a year, because, in conversations with HEFCW and the institutions, they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on. So, it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18, as opposed to 2018-19, because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later. With regard to additional resources, you'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees, and £5 million has been made available to HEFCW to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we're in a position to fully implement Diamond at the postgraduate level. kirsty williams am: The financial allocation, as I said, was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues, but if you'd like further details I can provide those as much as I'm able. julie morgan am: I think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and, of course, that money is now not available for the next financial year, so there's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it, presumably. kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, it was part of the overall allocation to HEFCW. With specific regard to dealing with the impact of Brexit, you'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the Global Wales initiative. This was an application that came in from Universities Wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time, and we're currently working with Universities Wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment. julie morgan am: And do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that? kirsty williams am: That is subject to continuing negotiations with Universities Wales before we let any contracts with them. What's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by Universities Wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting, specifically the United States of America and Vietnam. julie morgan am: And will this money be used equally between all the universities? kirsty williams am: We expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted, as well as the overall global branding from Universities Wales and the new Study in Wales initiative. I think we've covered the EU student fees, haven't we? lynne neagle am: Okay. Do you want to ask question 12? julie morgan am: Has the Welsh Government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and EU students who may wish to study here? kirsty williams am: Okay. Well, with regard to immigration, clearly, this is something, at the moment, that is out of our hands, and I have to say, it hasn't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of England, with no consultation with us and I don't believe with the Scottish Government either. So, we have campaigned, pushed, cajoled, lobbied, and I was very glad that in December last year, the Home Office did then make that scheme available to Cardiff and to Trinity Saint David. We continue to press the point that we do not believe that, first of all, international students should be included in any immigration targets. I think all the evidence suggests that the British public don't regard international students as immigrants, and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the UK Government. At the moment, you'll be aware that Welsh Government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for Wales, although I must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students. You'll be aware that this week the Government's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they don't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for EU students, as opposed to international students. But we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in Wales, and indeed the UK, to be able to do so. llyr gruffydd am: So, what are we doing from now on in then? Are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push? kirsty williams am: No—gosh—Llyr, we continue to push the case at the official level, and at the moment, I'm trying to convene a quadrilateral, if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that Northern Ireland aren't up and running—but certainly with officials from Northern Ireland. We're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself, the HE Minister for England and the new HE Minister for Scotland. If I can speak candidly, I don't believe that there's any difference between our view, with regard to the status of international students, and the views of English Ministers within the department in England. So, I don't think we need to persuade Sam Gyimah about the importance of this. Jo Johnson got, I think the current Minister gets it—it's a question of whether we can persuade the Home Office of that particular case. Firstly, with regard to higher education, we heard that, even without Brexit, higher education is in managed deficit, whilst the funding announcements from Diamond and Reid are awaited. So, is that a concern to Welsh Government, and could Welsh Government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the Diamond and Reid reviews? kirsty williams am: Welsh Government is fully committed, John, to implementing the Diamond review proposals. It's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the First Minister that brought me into the administration, and we have been very clear with HEFCW about our expectations and what the implementation of Diamond will mean for grant going to HEFCW. With regard to Reid, we continue within Government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of Reid, but one of the whole principles behind Diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the HE sector in the round, that is fair to students, encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so, especially from those from a poorer background, as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need. john griffiths am: So, you don't accept, then, that there hasn't been a clear funding commitment from Welsh Government to those reviews—the Diamond and Reid reviews? kirsty williams am: With regard to Diamond, I would absolutely refute that. We have been very clear and we have shown HEFCW our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'Diamond dividend', although the Diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the Diamond dividend to be. Now, with regard to Reid, those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the Government, but I think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to Diamond. The second question, really, is about HE and FE and it's about European funding, which, of course, has been and is on a multi-year basis, which gives, I think, a lot of security and comfort to the sectors, knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time. So, would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for HE, and indeed for FE, moving forward beyond Brexit? eluned morgan am: Shall I take this and give you a little bit of a break? She's not very well. People can plan, you can get staffing in place, you can have really strategic aims and I think that's really useful for the institutions involved. So, whilst I think we would, in an ideal world, like to see a better view of what's coming our way, it's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the UK Government. Of course, it's not just about ESF and apprenticeships—it's also about ERDF funding. So, you mustn't forget that, actually, there's been a lot of ERDF funding that's gone into these institutions. Also, FE colleges—we've got Coleg y Cymoedd, the college in Blaenau Gwent. It's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress. So, that will be a huge loss, but I think it's really important that we don't forget the ERDF aspect in addition to the ESF impact that there will be on these institutions. As far as further education is concerned, in your paper you state that it's a priority to support the FE sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under European Union funding. So, would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority, and—? I'll stop there for the moment. What we've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by EU funding. The UK Government have made us some promises and they've made some commitments, and we need to hold them to that, and so let's keep the pressure on. The moment we start saying, 'No, it's all going to be okay, we'll sort ourselves out'—I think that would be a huge mistake. We have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of Brexit, and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment. I think it was quite interesting to hear what Philip Hammond said yesterday when he was in Wales, saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy, which implies that he has no idea what's going to happen there, and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal. I think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the Brexit referendum. But, in terms of the replacements, we'd be looking at about £15 million a year, and that would be a huge impact for us, but we're not looking at that—I don't think we should be—because they made some promises. john griffiths am: So, could you say that, if they keep their promises, then at least that level of funding would be maintained? eluned morgan am: I think that would be a minimum, but that's just one aspect of it. suzy davies am: Yes, just very quickly on the multi-annual point, obviously I recognise that we're talking about six or seven-year cycles with Europe, and I completely take the point that you don't really know from year to year what your budget's going to be, but Welsh Government does make multi-annual commitments. How are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well, both your sectors, really? eluned morgan am: I think it's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue, so that's what would make the difference. The one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they're less likely, then, to be committed to those institutions. I think it's a really, really concerning thing, because what makes these institutions work well is their staff, so that makes life very, very difficult without that multi-annual commitment. suzy davies am: They also have to raise some of their own money as well—we mustn't forget that. eluned morgan am: No, I think that's right, and I think that there's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas. lynne neagle am: So, given the precarious state of planning for the finances, are you considering letting universities charge EU students international fees? kirsty williams am: We don't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students. They would be in a position to—[Inaudible.] They are in a position to set international fees at a rate that, I guess, they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students. I just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding, because the ESF—the commitments take us to 2023, which takes us beyond any transition period. So, I just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole, come what may. eluned morgan am: Well, we're fine until 2020, because we've had that guarantee from the Government. The issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the EU. So, there is a risk and there is concern, beyond 2020, that that would create problems if they don't agree to fund that, which is the expectation that we have. llyr gruffydd am: But it is a prospect that this wouldn't be achieved as you foresee. eluned morgan am: Well, we do hope, because we've had the pledges and commitments from the Government, that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding. llyr gruffydd am: So, to what extent does that undermine the current work? Because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on. Businesses want to know, if they're starting on some sort of journey, that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line. eluned morgan am: Well, as I said, because the guarantee is there until 2020, I think that, for now, people are willing to go into those agreements, and I hope that we'll have a better outlook by November of the direction we're moving in. You have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in Wales is rising, while they've collapsed entirely in England. So, it is important that we do continue, and it's important that we don't create an atmosphere here that's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace. llyr gruffydd am: Are you confident that the Government will achieve its targets in this context? eluned morgan am: Yes. But let's be clear: if there is a 'no deal' scenario, that will have an impact on the economy, and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the EU. llyr gruffydd am: Talking about the impact on the wider economy, on the point you made earlier that it's not just the direct effect on these institutions, but also on the businesses that they engage with, that is a concern in this context, that means, of course, that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the Government are doing, because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this. So, could you tell us a little bit about how you're working with Ministers and Cabinet Secretaries and other departments within the Government to safeguard these interests? eluned morgan am: So, as part of the employability programme, I have started going round every member of the Cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example, in health, and, certainly, the economy, but here are many other areas. What's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis, but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships. That's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding, on the ground, of what's needed by employers. And so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that's where we're focusing our work. So, we're asking, for example, health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships. llyr gruffydd am: Is there a danger that we're a little bit behind in this process? Because Brexit could be upon us in no time at all, and, of course, this work is still ongoing. eluned morgan am: Well, I have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk, and agriculture's one of those, of course—. We have been pushing to see what we can do further, so, for example, I'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because I do think it's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen. So, those preparations are in place as far as they can be, but, of course, it's very difficult without knowing to what extent it's going to impact on us. llyr gruffydd am: And each sector's running on its own timescale, I would presume. But, as you've mentioned rural skills, when do you foresee that that work will appear, and when will plans or schemes or whatever you're intending to put in place see the light of day? eluned morgan am: Well, we hope during this term that that will be published or announced. So, certainly, it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly, with the colleges, to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that, and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal. That's something that I think we have to learn and we need to convince the FE sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace. llyr gruffydd am: Yes, because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill. That is a live discussion across FE and HE, but you're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction. eluned morgan am: Well, it's helped that we've put £10 million on the table, because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for. So that has helped a lot in terms of focus and, of course, we're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund FE, and that will certainly be a part of that. Can I just go back—? kirsty williams am: Sorry, Chair, could I just clarify something? The last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: I was just going to go back to that, yes. There could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements, so, if a deal was reached with the European Union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements, then, obviously, the ability of the HE institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed. lynne neagle am: If there's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: If there's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven, international rates. I should have made it very clear that the answer I gave was in the context of no deal, which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning, but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements, then that ability, obviously, would be curtailed. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary, the Minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions? We very much appreciate your time. Members will see that there are 18 papers to note, so I'd like to suggest that we note them as a block, please, and just to flag that I would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private. Item 6, then, can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

The blame for the decrease in EU students applying to Wales universities this year was initially placed on the Wales government by Hefin David, but Kirsty Williams cautioned against jumping to conclusions before the first census in November. Kirsty Williams also highlighted that non-EU international students make up a significant portion of non-UK students in Wales institutions, suggesting that there is no need to be overly concerned about the current number of applications. Kirsty Williams praised Swansea University as a good example for other institutions to learn from, citing their attractive curriculum, desired courses, effective teaching, and appealing infrastructure as factors that successfully attract potential applicants. Julie Morgan mentioned that Wales universities were funded with 6.4 million dollars in 2017-18, and Kirsty Williams added that additional resources of £5 million were made available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees and kick-start postgraduate support. With adequate funding, Kirsty Williams believed that the fiscal problems of Wales universities would be alleviated. Initially hesitant about a new immigration policy, Kirsty Williams changed his stance and advocated for a new immigration system that treats EU students and other foreign students equally when seeking employment in Wales, as locals do not view foreign students as immigrants.

What were Kirsty Williams' views on the admission problems of Wales universities, corresponding solutions, funding to support universities, and the immigration policy?

professor b: U u u u , I meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what I meant , phd c: Oh . phd c: I did some experim , just a few more experiments before I had to , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: Great ! phd c: Was it last week or whenever ? , so what I was started playing with was the th again , this is the HTK back - end . And , I was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . And in the first round they do , I think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . And so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . It 's this program called H E professor b: But in HTK , what 's the difference between , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: OK . So what happens is , at each one of these points , you increase the number of Gaussians in the model . phd c: And so , in the final one here , you end up with , for all of the the digit words , you end up with , three mixtures per state , professor b: Yeah . So I had done some experiments where I was I I want to play with the number of mixtures . phd c: But , I wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . phd c: And so , I I ran a couple of experiments where I reduced that to l to be three , two , two , five , I think , and I got almost the exact same results . So , I I think m it only took something like , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: As opposed to ? phd f: Good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd c: So , even we don't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: And then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: And when you have your final thing , we go back to this . , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you don't do anything else . phd c: So it 's a very simple change to make and it doesn't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: So you you run with three , two , two , five ? That 's a phd c: So I , I I have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd c: I I thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: Oh , the other thing that I did was , I compiled the HTK stuff for the Linux boxes . So , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , as fast as , you know , five different machines . phd c: So , I 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but I can I can send email around about it . phd c: And so we 've got it now HTK 's compiled for both the Linux and for , the Sparcs . , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot CSHRC , it detects whether you 're running on the Linux or a a Sparc and points to the right executables . , and you may not have had that in your dot CSHRC before , if you were always just running the Sparc . phd c: I can I can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . phd c: So , together with the fact that we 've got these faster Linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd c: So after I did that , then what I wanted to do was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , see how how that affects performance . In fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: grad e: So at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: - huh . It goes from this , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . And I think what happens here is professor b: Might be between , shared , shared variances or something , phd c: Yeah . phd c: there because they start off with , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . I don't know yet the what happened Tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , things like the weights , professor b: Oh , this is a conference call for , Aurora participant sort of thing . professor b: Do you know who was who was since we weren't in on it , do you know who was in from OGI ? Was was was Hynek involved or was it Sunil phd a: I have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: Mmm , I just professor b: Oh , you don't know . So the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . phd a: Some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . , and the fact is that for right now for the English , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . And right now actually there is a thing also , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . phd c: How should that be done ? , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: phd c: Th - they 're professor b: But the but , the other thing phd a: In professor b: I don't know I haven't thought it through , but one one would think that each It it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: professor b: So phd c: Well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . But the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: Yeah . professor b: And the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . And so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , i it 's phd c: Why don't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? You know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . professor b: Well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . professor b: It 's just when you when you get all done , I think that they pro I m I I wasn't there but I think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . professor b: And , so they said " how much is significantly better ? what do you ? " And and so they said " well , you know , you should have half the errors , " or something , " that you had before " . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: Combine error rates and then professor b: Yeah . When when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: Oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , opinions about this . Some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and So , bu phd c: It sounds like they don't really have a good idea about what the final application is gonna be . professor b: Well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , if you really believe that was gonna be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . So , I think the hope would be that it would , it would work well for the good cases and , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . I I guess what I 'm , I I was thinking about it in terms of , if I were building the final product and I was gonna test to see which front - end I 'd I wanted to use , I would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that I was gonna be using the system in . professor b: I th phd c: So if if they don't know , doesn't that suggest the way for them to go ? , you assume everything 's equal . , y y , you professor b: Well , I I think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: Yeah . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , you improve the , the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: professor b: So , I guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: Yeah . professor b: So the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gonna try and do that , but you wanna see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , it 's a little different . phd c: So professor b: phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . That 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar Well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . professor b: are you gonna have w , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? Going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? On what kind of roads ? phd c: professor b: I I I think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . professor b: I think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . You wouldn't like that as soon as you step outside You know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: Well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: in these cases , if you go from the the , I don't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . professor b: You know , so , Yeah , the reference one , for instance this is back old on , on Italian , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . And so I think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean So you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you shouldn't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . professor b: So , you know , I I could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: it 's Yeah . Medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , I think , like on a highway and professor b: Right . phd a: So professor b: So it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: Same microphone but Yeah . But the way they have it now , it 's I guess it 's it 's They they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: Yeah . professor b: so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . professor b: Just say " OK , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens " . professor b: I think that that I I I gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any policy change because everybody has has , their own opinion phd a: Yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , MFCC but with a voice activity detector . So they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . phd a: And if we look at the result that Sunil sent , just putting the VAD in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e professor b: So nobody would be there , probably . professor b: So whose VAD is Is is this a ? phd a: they didn't decide yet . I guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so I don't know . , it 's not that the design of the VAD isn't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: Yeah . Per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , to make a good VAD you don't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . phd c: Wha - what do you mean ? phd a: Yeah , if i professor b: So y so you m s Yeah , but Well , let 's say for ins see , MFCC for instance doesn't have anything in it , related to the pitch . So suppose you 've that what you really wanna do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: Oh , oh . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , s region with speech . phd c: So there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the MFCC ? phd a: That 's not clear , but this e professor b: Well , for the baseline . professor b: So so if you use other features then y But it 's just a question of what is your baseline . Right ? What is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: I g Yeah . professor b: And so having the baseline be the MFCC 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good VAD phd c: I don't s But they seem like two separate issues . phd c: Right ? professor b: Unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what I think Stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the VAD . professor b: You should do both phd c: Right ? professor b: and and I I think that this still makes I still think this makes sense as a baseline . professor b: you know , we had the MFCC 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of HTK and made that the baseline . , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the VAD then that 's so be it . professor b: But , at least you have a starting point that 's , cuz i i some of the some of the people didn't have a VAD at all , I guess . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing wasn't so bad at all . And if it turns out that you can't improve on that , well , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use MFCC . , it seems like , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and MFCC 's , you know , or PLP or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , is gonna have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . They might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . phd c: It seems like whatever they choose they shouldn't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: Well , I think people just had phd c: You know ? professor b: it wasn't that they purposely brain - damaged it . professor b: And and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had V A Ds and half of them didn't , and the half that did did well and the half that didn't did poorly . So what happened since , last week is well , from OGI , these experiments on putting VAD on the baseline . And these experiments also are using , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , just after this . So I think spectral subtraction , LDA filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization doesn't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: Is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: I phd c: and ? phd a: I have no idea , because the issue I brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: Mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at OGI is one from from the proposed the the the Aurora prop , proposals , which might be much better . And what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: Right . professor b: When you say " we have that " , does Sunil have it now , too , phd a: I No . , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched when we put the neural network . And with the current weighting I think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . professor b: But how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: It 's like , fff , fff , ten percent relative . That 's phd a: - y w when I say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when I I , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . phd a: because it has , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , clean downsampling , and , what else ? , yeah , a good VAD . I I j , pr professor b: But the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd f: Isn't it phd a: And so professor b: So it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: And then I took this system and , mmm , w , I p we put the old filters also . So we have this good system , with good VAD , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , with the short filter it 's not worse . professor b: But what you 're saying is that when you do these So let me try to understand . professor b: that , on the i things are somewhat better , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . professor b: So does , when you say , So The th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: Yeah . Then we tried , to do something like proposal - two but having , e using also MSG features . So basically we try to , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , but it 's still , on the , t phd f: Oh , well , I have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with Matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: What sorts of phd f: Yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: We have some phd a: So we would be looking at , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: this , this , and this . So the So basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: OK . Yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as I recall , is you 're subtracting the the , the mel mel mel filter , spectrum from the FFT spectrum . phd a: So we have the mel f filter bank , we have the FFT , so we just professor b: So it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: No . phd f: We have here some histogram , phd a: E yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . So , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around O point three , and for voiced portion the mean is O point fifty - nine . phd c: How did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: We used , TIMIT and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: Yeah . We , use TIMIT on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th Yeah . phd f: But if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , I think . phd a: It seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . There could be also the , something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: Is this a a s a trained system ? Or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? Ho - how does it work ? phd a: Right now we just are trying to find some features . Hopefully , I think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: Because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced that seemed pretty encouraging . phd c: Well , y I I don't know that I would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from TIMIT labellings . phd c: Right ? So , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . phd c: i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . But another way of looking at it might be that , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . So another way of looking at it is that , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , give you the smooth spectrum . By going back to the FFT , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . So the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? So , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way I 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , classifier , phd c: professor b: but it 's more that , you know , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: Right . The the more obvious is that that well , using the th the FFT , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: Well , that 's the rea w w what I 'm arguing is that 's Yeah . professor b: But in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: Oh , sorry . professor b: and But what I 'm saying is that may be OK , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , th you know , structural reasons , like the one that Chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . professor b: So , what I 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . professor b: And your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , statistical characterizations of , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . professor b: obviously you have something about the excitation , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . So so I I would almost take a , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , I would almost just take a , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd c: So i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? Or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: I guess we don't know exactly yet . Th phd c: It 's not part of a VAD system that you 're doing ? phd f: No . phd a: Yeah , it could be , it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: professor b: But each one of the mixture components , you have , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . So it 's so , it seems l you know phd c: I think it 's a neat thing . , I know that , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the FFT and actually it wasn't wasn't wasn't so bad . , so it would s and and you know that i it 's gotta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: phd c: So how does , maybe I 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the FFT and the smoothed spectral envelope ? Wha - wh i i , how is that , ? phd a: we just How did we do it up again ? phd f: we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: phd f: And i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: S professor b: So you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd a: So we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm Yeah , it 's linear . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: Yeah . At the n at the center of the filter phd c: So you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the FFT vector ? phd a: Yeah . And I think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd a: Above , it seems that Well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and But professor b: Yeah . phd a: Well , it 's just professor b: No , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: So this is , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: Yeah . So i so i i this is , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: So this is Yeah . professor b: whatever it You - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: In log domain . But , anyway , and that 's phd c: So what 's th , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? I I don't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . What happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: Yeah . phd a: And the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the FFT because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the FFT , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . phd a: It 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: OK . So do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: So - It 's Y phd c: Is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? What does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: Yeah . This is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: Right . phd c: So , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: Fifteen p phd a: So it 's Yeah . professor b: to first order what you 'd what you 're doing , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd a: Do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: first order for speech recognition , you say " I don't care about the source " . professor b: The filters roughly act like a , a , a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . professor b: So if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . professor b: And the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: Yeah . professor b: And so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . And I call that lies because you don't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . professor b: That 's why I was going to the why I was referring to it in a more a more , conservative way , when I was saying " well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation " . This moved in the professor b: So so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . professor b: but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: Right . professor b: probably you wouldn't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying " OK , our feature set will be the FFT " , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . professor b: And then you go back to the intuition that , well , you don't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . professor b: And it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , in frequency , phd c: professor b: so , phd c: So you don't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: not here . professor b: But presumably you 'll see something that won't have this kind of , regularity in frequency , in the phd a: But Yeah . phd c: And so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: It seems , yeah . The mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: No , no , no . But th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: Oh ! phd a: So if if you take this frame , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: . Cool ! phd f: I have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: Oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: Oh , OK phd f: But they are a difference . phd a: Yeah , that 's phd f: Because here the FFT is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: Oh . phd a: because if we use the standard , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you don't really have you don't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: phd a: Yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: Oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . Well , it looks better , but , the thing is if if , if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j , need to do place along an FFT , it may be it may be pushing things . professor b: And and , phd c: Would you would you wanna do this kind of , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: maybe . The spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? Is it being done at the level of FFT bins or at the level of , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: I guess it depends . professor b: how are they doing it ? phd a: How they 're doing it ? Yeah . Filter bank , phd a: no ? It 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . So we 'll perhaps try to convince OGI people to use the new the new filters and Yeah . , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , source , phd a: not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but I wi I will call them and professor b: OK . phd a: now they are I think they have more time because they have this well , Eurospeech deadline is over phd c: When is the next , Aurora deadline ? phd a: and It 's , in June . professor b: Early June , late June , middle June ? phd a: I don't know w professor b: . , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , phd f: Yeah . , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: Oh , I I am doing this . I 'm sorry , but I think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that I don't speak . phd f: Because professor b: You know , we 'll get we 'll get to , Spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , you too . phd f: After the after , the result for the TI - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd c: Y professor b: We like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , Bourlard - Hermansky - Morgan , frame of mind . So it 's , anything to talk about ? grad d: N , not not not much is new . So when I talked about what I 'm planning to do last time , I said I was , going to use Avendano 's method of , using a transformation , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . , but , I decided not to do that after all because I I realized to use it I 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: grad d: and right now I think our feature computation is set to up to , take , audio as input , in general . So I decided that I I 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . Right ? grad d: or or even if I 'm using our system , I was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: Yeah ? grad d: because then I could just feacalc as is and I wouldn't have to change the code . , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: Right . professor b: but , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . But anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . So that 's That was it , huh ? grad d: That Yeah , e That 's it , that 's it . I went off on a little tangent this past week , looking at , modulation s spectrum stuff , and and learning a bit about what what , what it is , and , the importance of it in speech recognition . And I found some some , neat papers , historical papers from , Kanedera , Hermansky , and Arai . grad e: And they they did a lot of experiments where th where , they take speech and , e they modify the , they they they measure the relative importance of having different , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . grad e: And they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , is im important for speech recognition . professor b: And and , the the MSG features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: Yeah . professor b: But , I guess , I thought you had brought this up in the context of , targets somehow . professor b: But i m grad e: professor b: i it 's not , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: Mmm . professor b: or a grad e: I was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: So maybe , le phd c: Should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits <doc-sep>So , You can fill those out , after , actually , so So , I got , these results from , Stephane . I think s that , there were some other very good results that we 're gonna wanna compare to . phd a: I I 'm sorry ? I didn't professor d: I got this from you phd a: Yeah . professor d: and then I sent a note to Sunil about the cuz he has been running some other systems phd a: professor d: You know most of the time , even even though it 's true that the overall number for Danish we didn't improve it If you look at it individually , what it really says is that there 's , Looks like out of the six cases , between the different kinds of , matching conditions out of the six cases , there 's basically , a couple where it stays about the same , three where it gets better , and one where it gets worse . phd a: Y Actually , for the Danish , there 's still some kind of mystery because , when we use the straight features , we are not able to get these nice number with the ICSI OGI one , . We don't have this ninety - three seventy - eight , we have eight phd e: Eighty - nine forty - four . professor d: Oh , and and we have a little time on that and actually so phd a: ? professor d: We have a little bit of time on that , actually . professor d: We have a day or so , so When when when do you folks leave ? phd a: Sunday . professor d: Sunday ? So So , Yeah , until Saturday midnight , or something , we have W we we have time , yeah . , and , you know , i u when whenever anybody figures it out they should also , for sure , email Hynek because Hynek will be over there telling people what we did , so he should know . , even with these results as they are , it 's it 's it 's really not that bad . But but , And it looks like the overall result as they are now , even without , you know , any any bugs being fixed is that , on the the other tasks , we had this average of , forty nine percent , or so , improvement . And here we have somewhat better than that than the Danish , and somewhat worse than that on the German , but , it sounds like , one way or another , the methods that we 're doing can reduce the error rate from from mel ceptrum down by , you know a fourth of them to , a half of them . , I think that , one of the things that Hynek was talking about was understanding what was in the other really good proposals and and trying to see if what should ultimately be proposed is some , combination of things . , if , Cuz there 's things that they are doing there that we certainly are not doing . phd c: How much how much better was the best system than ours ? professor d: So Well , we don't know yet . professor d: first place , there 's still this thing to to work out , and second place second thing is that the only results that we have so far from before were really development set results . And the best result of any system was about fifty - four , where these numbers are the , relative , reduction in , word error rate . professor d: And here the the worst system still reduced the error rate by thirty - three percent , or something , in development set . professor d: So so , you know , sort of everybody is doing things between , well , roughly a third of the errors , and half the errors being eliminated , and varying on different test sets and so forth . professor d: So I think It 's probably a good time to look at what 's really going on and seeing if there 's a there 's a way to combine the best ideas while at the same time not blowing up the amount of , resources used , cuz that 's that 's critical for this this test . phd c: Do we know anything about who who 's was it that had the lowest on the dev set ? professor d: the , the there were two systems that were put forth by a combination of of , French Telecom and Alcatel . And , they they differed in some respects , but they e em one was called the French Telecom Alcatel System the other was called the Alcatel French Telecom System , which is the biggest difference , I think . professor d: you know ? So , my impression is they also did very well on on the the , evaluation set , but , I I we haven't seen you 've - you haven't seen any final results for that phd c: And they used the main thing that that they used was spectral subtraction ? professor d: yeah . And then then there was some p some modification of the cepstral parameters , where they phd a: Yeah , actually , something that 's close to cepstral mean subtraction . I 'm I 'm , So , basically , the mean is adapted during speech and not during silence . professor d: But some people have done exactly that sort of thing , of of and the it 's not To to look in speech only , to try to m to measure these things during speech , phd a: Yeah , yeah . But i it it so it looks like they did some some , reasonable things , and they 're not things that we did , precisely . We did unreasonable things , which because we like to try strange things , and and , and our things worked too . professor d: And so , it 's possible that some combination of these different things that were done would be the best thing to do . But the only caveat to that is that everybody 's being real conscious of how much memory and how much CPU they 're using phd c: professor d: because these , standards are supposed to go on cell phones with m moderate resources in both respects . phd c: Did anybody , do anything with the models as a an experiment ? Or professor d: they didn't report it , if they did . , now , one of the things that 's nice about what we did is , we do have a a , a filtering , which leads to a a , a reduction in the bandwidth in the modulation spectrum , which allows us to downsample . It it said the same amount because for convenience sake in the particular way that this is being tested , they were repeating the packets . So it was they were s they they had twenty - four hundred bits per second , but they were literally creating forty - eight hundred bits per second , even though y it was just repeated . professor d: So , in practice phd c: So you could 've had a repeat count in there or something . professor d: Well , n , this was just a ph phoney thing just to to fit into the the software that was testing the errors channel errors and so on . professor d: So so in reality , if you put this this system in into , the field , it would be twenty - four hundred bits per second , not forty - eight hundred . phd c: When is the development set , the , test set results due ? Like the day before you leave or something ? professor d: probably the day after they leave , but we 'll have to we 'll have to stop it the day before we leave . So phd a: Yeah , probably , well professor d: I th I think I I think they are , phd a: Yeah , well professor d: yeah . So , since we have a bit farther to travel than some of the others , we 'll have to get done a little quicker . , just exactly this sort of thing of , you know , why why these features seem to be behaving differently , in California than in Oregon . , we didn't we didn't have enough electrons here and , but , I think , you know , the main reason for having , it only takes w to run the the two test sets in just in computer time is just a day or so , right ? phd a: Yeah , professor d: So phd a: it 's very short interval . So , I think the who the whole reason for having as long as we have , which was like a week and a half , is is because of bugs like that . So Huh So , we 're gonna end up with these same kind of sheets that have the the percentages and so on just for the phd a: Yeah , so there are two more columns in the sheets , professor d: Oh , I guess it 's the same sheets , phd a: two . phd a: So , Hynek will try to push for trying to combine , different things ? Or ? professor d: well that 's yeah , I think the question is " Is there is there some advantage ? " , you could just take the best system and say that 's the standard . But the thing is that if different systems are getting at good things , a again within the constraint of the resources , if there 's something simple that you can do Now for instance , it 's , I think , very reasonable to have a standard for the terminal 's side and then for the server 's side say , " Here 's a number of things that could be done . " So , everything that we did could probably just be added on to what Alcatel did , and i it 'd probably work pretty well with them , too . And then on the terminal 's side , I don't know how much , memory and and CPU it takes , but it seems like the filtering , the VAD stuff they both had , right ? And , so and they both had some kind of on - line normalization , right ? phd a: yeah . professor d: Of sorts , yeah ? So so , it seems like the main different there is the is the , filtering . And the filtering I think if you can shouldn't take a lot of memory to do that , and I also wouldn't think the CPU , would be much either for that part . So , if you can if you can add those in then , you can cut the data rate in half . professor d: So it seems like the right thing to do is to on the on the terminal 's side , take what they did , if it if it does seem to generalize well to German and Danish , take what they did add in a filter , and add in some stuff on the server 's side and and and that 's probably a reasonable standard . phd a: They are working on this already ? Because yeah , Su - Sunil told me that he was trying already to put some kind of , filtering in the France Telecom . professor d: Yeah , so that 's that 's that 's what That would be ideal would be is that they could , you know , they could actually show that , in fact , a combination of some sort , would work even better than what what any of the systems had . , you can always have another standard after that , but this process has gone on for a while on already and and people might just wanna pick something and say , " OK , this is it . It 's just that , if you disobey them , then you risk not being able to sell your product , or And people often work on new standards while an old standard is in place and so on . The other hand , they might just say they just don't know enough yet to to declare a standard . So you you you will be you will become experts on this and know more far more than me about the tha this particular standards process once you you go to this meeting . , you 're done in the sense that , you may be able to get some new features from Sunil , and we 'll re - run it . , but other than that , you 're you 're basically done , right ? So , I 'm interested in hearing hearing your thoughts about where you think we should go from this . professor d: we tried a lot of things in a hurry , and , if we can back off from this now and sort of take our time with something , and not have doing things quickly be quite so much the constraint , what what you think would be the best thing to do . phd a: well Well , first , to really have a look at at the speech from these databases because , well , we tried several thing , but we did not really look at what what 's happening , and where is the noise , and professor d: OK . Actually , there is one thing that well , generally we we think that most of the errors are within phoneme classes , and so I think it could be interesting to to see if it I don't think it 's still true when we add noise , and so we have I I guess the confusion ma the confusion matrices are very different when when we have noise , and when it 's clean speech . phd a: And so , Yeah , so perhaps we could have a a large gain , eh , just by looking at improving the , recognition , not of phonemes , but of phoneme classes , simply . phd a: And which is a s a s a simpler problem , perhaps , but which is perhaps important for noisy speech . professor d: The other thing that strikes me , just looking at these numbers is , just taking the best cases , some of these , of course , even with all of our our wonderful processing , still are horrible kinds of numbers . But just take the best case , the well - matched , German case after er well - matched Danish after we phd a: professor d: the kind of numbers we 're getting are about eight or nine p percent error per digit . professor d: if you have ten digits for a phone number , every now and then you 'll get it right . , it 's it 's , So , the other thing is that , And and a and and also , part of what 's nice about this is that this is , a realistic almost realistic database . , it 's still not people who are really trying to accomplish something , but but , within the artificial setup , it isn't noise artificially added , you know , simulated , additive noise . And , the the training the training , I guess , is always done on the close talking phd a: No , actually actually the well - matched condition is still quite di still quite difficult . professor d: No ? phd a: it 's they have all these data from the close mike and from the distant mike , from different driving condition , open window , closed window , professor d: Yeah . phd a: and they take all of this and they take seventy percent , I think , for training and thirty percent for testing . phd a: So , training is done on different conditions and different microphones , and testing also is done on different microphone and conditions . So , probably if we only take the close microphones , I guess the results should be much much better than this . Wha - what about i in so the the phd a: Yeah , so there is this , the mismatched is , the same kind of thing , professor d: go ahead . phd a: but the driving conditions , the speed and the kind of road , is different for training and testing , is that right ? phd e: Yeah . So , yeah , so the high so the right so the highly mismatched case is in some sense a good model for what we 've been , you know , typically talking about when we talk about additive noise in And so and i i k it does correspond to a realistic situation in the sense that , people might really be trying to , call out telephone numbers or some or something like that , in in their cars phd a: Yeah . professor d: phd a: Actually , yeah , it 's very close to clean speech training because , well , because the close microphone and noisy speech testing , professor d: Yeah . And the well - matched condition is what you might imagine that you might be able to approach , if you know that this is the application . And then , when y you sell it to somebody , they will be a different person with a different car , and so on . So it 's this is a an optim somewhat optimistic view on it , so , you know , the real thing is somewhere in between the two . professor d: but phd a: But the , the th th professor d: Even the optimistic one is phd a: it doesn't work . So , in a way , that 's , you know , that 's sort of the dominant thing is that even , say on the development set stuff that we saw , the , the numbers that , that Alcatel was getting when choosing out the best single numbers , it was just you know , it wasn't good enough for for a a for a real system . professor d: and , I don't know So , looking at the data , where , you know what 's the what 's what 's th what 's characteristic i e yeah , I think that 's that 's a good thing . Does a any you have any thoughts about what else y you 're thinking that you didn't get to that you would like to do if you had more time ? phd e: Oh , f a lot of thing . professor d: Yeah , cuz a lot of time it 's true , there were a lot of times when we 've tried something and it didn't work right away , even though we had an intuition that there should be something there . And , one of the things I don't remember the details on , but I remember at some point , when you were working with a second stream , and you tried a low - pass filtering to cepstrum , in some case you got phd e: MSG Yeah . professor d: Well , but it was an MSG - like thing , but it wasn't MSG , right ? , you y I think in some case you got some little improvement , but it was , you know , sort of a small improvement , and it was a a big added complication , so you dropped it . But , that was just sort of one try , right ? You just took one filter , threw it there , phd a: Yeah , professor d: right ? And it seems to me that , if that is an important idea , which , you know , might be , that one could work at it for a while , as you 're saying . professor d: And , and you had , you know , you had the multi - band things also , and , you know , there was issue of that . phd a: Yeah , professor d: Barry 's going to be , continuing working on multi - band things as well . Kind of inspired by the stuff by Larry Saul with the , learning articulatory feature in I think , in the case of his paper with sonorance based on , multi - band information where you have a a combination of gradient learning an and , EM . professor d: and , so , I think that , you know , this is a , this is a neat data set . , and then , as we mentioned before , we also have the the new , digit set coming up from recordings in this room . and , what I like about it , in a way , is that , the results are still so terrible . But even after that it 's still , you know , so poor that that , no one could really use it . So , I think that 's great that because and y also because again , it 's not something sometimes we 've gotten terrible results by taking some data , and artificially , you know , convolving it with some room response , or something we take a very , at one point , Brian and I went downstairs into the the basement where it was it was in a hallway where it was very reverberant and we we made some recordings there . And then we we , made a simulation of the of the room acoustics there and and applied it to other things , phd a: professor d: and But it was all pretty artificial , and and , you know , how often would you really try to have your most crucial conversations in this very reverberant hallway ? So , This is what 's nice about the Aurora data and the data here , is that is that it 's sort of a realistic room situation , acoustics acoustic situation , both terms in noise and reflections , and so on and n n And , with something that 's still relatively realistic , it 's still very very hard to do very well . phd a: Yeah , so d well Actually , this is tha that 's why we well , it 's a different kind of data . So this would be the first thing , and then , of course , try to well , kind of debug what was wrong , eh , when we do Aurora test on the MSG particularly , and on the multi - band . What do you think ? phd c: About professor d: Anything phd c: About other experiments ? , now , I 'm interested in , looking at the experiments where you use , data from multiple languages to train the neural net . And I don't know how far , or if you guys even had a chance to try that , but that would be some it 'd be interesting to me . phd a: Yeah , but professor d: S b phd a: Again , it 's the kind of of thing that , we were thin thinking thinking that it would work , but it didn't work . And , eh , so there is kind of of not a bug , but something wrong in what we are doing , perhaps . phd a: something wrong , perhaps in the just in the the fact that the labels are phd c: Right . So one form of different data was is from different languages , but the other Well , i in fact , m in those experiments it wasn't so much combining multiple nets , it was a single net that had different phd a: Yeah . professor d: So , first thing is would it be better if they were multiple nets , for some reason ? Second thing is , never mind the different languages , just having acoustic conditions rather than training them all up in one , would it be helpful to have different ones ? So , That was a question that was kind of raised by Mike Shire 's thesis , and on in that case in terms of reverberation . Whe - when are you two getting back ? phd e: I 'm phd a: You on Friday or S on Saturday or ? phd e: Sunday phd a: S oh yeah , Sunday , yeah . You 've gotta S have a Saturday overnight , right ? phd a: I 'll be back on Tuesday . phd c: Where where 's the meeting ? professor d: Amsterdam , I think , yeah ? phd a: Yeah , Amsterdam . professor d: so Yeah , well , if we don't have an anything else to discuss , we should , turn off the machine and then say the real nasty things <doc-sep> , why don't we s again start off with with , Yeah , I 'll get it . And then , given that , Liz and Andreas are gonna be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . , what else ? grad f: professor d: What 's SmartKom ? SmartKom ? grad f: we wanna talk about if w if we wanna add the data to the mar Meeting Recorder corpus . professor d: What what what are we collecting here ? phd e: Data ? grad f: So why don't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: The SmartKom data ? professor d: Yeah , right . I think it was Andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on SRI recognition experiments . professor d: grad f: And then if ti if there 's time I wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so I can wait till next week . I think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wanna maybe focus on when An - Andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: And also the SmartKom thing should b professor d: SmartKom also , Andreas . professor d: So , I think they 'll be inter I 'll be interested in all this , but but , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . Or I guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: Yeah . phd b: maybe I said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: And I and I think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there won't be huge number of of added , phd b: Right . Not not much @ @ grad f: Although Dave basically said that if we wanna do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . phd b: Oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: Yep . So , I think we do need to talk a little bit about Well , we don't need to do it during this meeting . So , naming conventions and things like that , that I 've been trying to keep actually up to date . postdoc a: I 'm sorry , you 've been what ? Showing them ? professor d: OK . Well , maybe , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the IBM transcription status . So , we , we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . Chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes " beep one beep " and then the phrase , and then " beep two beep " and then the phrase . , I think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . grad f: And we did it with the automatic segmentation , and I don't think We ne we didn't look at it in detail . phd b: And grad f: I sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . grad f: And , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . phd b: And the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . phd b: And I think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there weren't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: Yeah , one interesting note is , or problem I dunno if this was just because of how I play it back , I say , SND - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd b: Yeah , and I I dunno if that 's an , artifact of playback phd e: Yeah . But with this new format , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it shouldn't throw them . grad f: Well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , certainly the software shouldn't do that , phd b: Yeah . phd b: I it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: Yeah . phd e: Yeah ? postdoc a: As long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . postdoc a: Well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: So th grad f: " Seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two " . postdoc a: Yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: Yes . Because , we don't we didn't In order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: We can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: Although we could tell them we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say " bracket digit bracket " phd b: huh . That 'd be what I 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . And then I wanted to talk about but as I said I we may not have time what we should do about digits . professor d: Le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that I I know Andreas is less interested in than Liz is , grad f: OK . It 's good grad f: Do we have anything else to say about transcription ? About IBM stuff ? phd b: Brian I I sent bresset sent Brian a message about the meeting and I haven't heard back yet . , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: We 're doing well . postdoc a: And , I 've prepared , a set of five which I 'm which I 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . She 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , the transcription of another transcriber . postdoc a: And , I 've moved on now to what I 'm calling set three . I sort of thought if I do it in sets groups of five , then I can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . postdoc a: And and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , the , DARPA demo , of twenty hours . So , I 'm gonna go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and and that 's that 's what my goal is . Package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . But I guess the other thing is that , that that 's kinda twenty hours ASAP because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . And and I don't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: Yeah , I guess the So the difference if if , if the IBM stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: Again . We 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: And I you know , I 've also d , discovered So with the new transcriber I 'm So , lemme say that my , So , At present , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . And , that sort of , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . Well , I realize that , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and wouldn't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? And so I 've , I , I 've trained the new one , the new the newest one , to , use the visual from the channel that is gonna be transcribed at any given time . Because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that didn't show up in the pre - segmentation . postdoc a: And that 'll be something like I it 's ver it 's interesting . A backchannel , or postdoc a: Once in a while it 's a backchannel . postdoc a: Sometimes it seems to be , similar to the ones that are being picked up . postdoc a: And they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . You just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . And , I think that we 're gonna end up with , better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: Yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . phd b: So they can they can , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: Yeah . So I think that that 's gonna , also eh , you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . grad f: so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . And , Liz and Andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . And , again , I don't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . But so , I was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . What about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: Well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . phd b: Right , Morgan ? professor d: phd b: Is that what you 're ? professor d: Yeah , I 'm I 'm not quite sure what I 'm talking about . And , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: so one option i professor d: Because people make mistakes and stuff . I was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , the SRI recognizer getting one percent word error , would we would we do better ? So , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: But that 's pretty uncommon . grad f: Well , I guess yeah , I guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . I 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's If grad f: But , Well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . You know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gonna transcribe it . professor d: Well grad f: And my my tendency right now is , well , if IBM comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: Yeah , it 's Y you raised a point , kind of , euphemistically but , m maybe it is a serious problem . Ho - what will they do when they go hear " beep seven beep seven three five two " , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: It 's pretty distinct . postdoc a: Well it it well , it 'd be preceded by " I 'm reading transcript so - and - so " ? phd b: Yeah . postdoc a: So , I think if they 're processing it at grad f: it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . grad f: So it sure , there there might be a place where it 's " beep seven beep eight beep eight beep " . But , you know , they they 're they 're gonna macros for inserting the beep marks . We 'll have to see , but I don't think it 's gonna be a problem . Well , I I I dunno , I I think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: We have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . Yeah , I phd i: You mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: Anything else ? Your mike is a little low there . So , You you have to go a little early , right ? At twenty phd i: Well , I can stay till about , three forty . professor d: So there was some In in Adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: Well , yeah . phd i: so , we had a discussion Don and Liz and I had discussion last week about how to proceed with , you know , with Don 's work , phd e: Ch phd i: and and and , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have Thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: So phd i: And , that should be fairly phd e: And how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? Yeah . So , there 's actually phd e: It 's not that phd i: Why do you ask ? grad f: I could phd i: No , actually , NIST has , m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , a time , grad f: Hand ones . phd i: You know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the the , you know , the the th phd b: It does all the work for you . phd i: So , it we just and we use that actually in Hub - five to do the scoring . phd e: So , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: So , we ha Yeah . phd g: Maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: So do phd e: OK . , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , What was the other problem ? Oh ! That Thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , speech detector . phd i: so that we could use , you know there wouldn't be so much hand labelling needed to , to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd i: So , you can you can phd b: It 'll give you a lot more data , too . So , it 's basically s I think , eight meetings or something which which I 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: That won't be perfect the alignments aren't perfect , phd e: Yeah . But phd i: but , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: Yeah . If you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . So , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , speech regions when it 's just like , breath or something like that , phd e: OK . phd g: and I 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain , phd e: Yeah . I 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: Yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . professor d: another one that we had on Adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about SmartKom ? grad f: Right . So , Rob Porzel eh , Porzel ? and the , Porzel and the , SmartKom group are collecting some dialogues . grad f: Basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . And , it involves starting I believe starting with a It 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , speech generation system . And they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . Should this be part of the corpus or not ? And my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . So , I just wanted to understand it , cuz I I 'm , hadn't quite followed this process . So , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions doesn't know that it 's , a machi not a machine ? phd i: Right . phd i: Actually actually , w w the the We do this I dunno who came up with it , but I think it 's a really clever idea . We simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , to a human . grad f: But of course they don't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: So , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: You might wanna try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer isn't up yet postdoc a: . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . " phd b: It 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: " No ! " phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a Windows machine . grad f: Abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: So did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: Yes . phd g: Cuz at first they weren't they weren't sa phd i: Yeah . grad f: and I said , " well that 's silly , if if we 're gonna try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . professor d: S phd e: We wer we just wanted to do phd i: No , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: Right . professor d: grad f: That that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd i: It 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the SmartKom system . phd b: Where does this ? professor d: phd g: Maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: Well , phd e: B phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: Right ? phd e: But but I 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . phd e: What they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: We 've never signed anything that said that we couldn't use anything that we did . professor d: I L look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: professor d: So should we save it ? grad f: And then professor d: Now th Yeah . professor d: anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . But it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . grad f: So it 's It it I guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . So if , at UW they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: I think it 's I I think I th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . phd g: What if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: No , it doesn't . phd g: And then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people won't , postdoc a: Well this professor d: Yeah . So so s so part of the reason that I wanted to bring this up is , do we wanna handle it as a special case or do we wanna fold it in , phd g: and Just give it a title . professor d: I think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user ID , give it session I Ds , let all the tools that handle Meeting Recorder handle it , or do we wanna special case it ? And if we were gonna special case it , who 's gonna do that ? phd e: So . phd i: Well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we don't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: It it it postdoc a: I think phd i: But as far as distributing it , we shouldn't label it as part of this meeting corpus . phd i: We should let it be its own corp postdoc a: Well it 's it well , because grad f: I don't see why not . professor d: It 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . professor d: But I I I have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gonna do , but I don't think i it it doesn't match anything that we 've described about meetings . professor d: Whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at UW and so forth really does . So w so what does that mean for how we are gonna organize things ? postdoc a: . professor d: You can you can Again , as as I think Andreas was saying , if you wanna use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . It 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . Right ? grad f: Yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: It might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: Yeah , I th professor d: Well , I don I wouldn't call reading digits " meetings " . Right ? , we we we were doing grad f: Well , but but , I put it under the same directory tree . professor d: Well grad f: You know , it 's in " user doctor speech data MR " . phd g: Can we just have a directory called , like , " other stuff " ? grad f: Other . My preference is to have a single procedure so that I don't have to think too much about things . professor d: O - You you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: If we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: All I 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gonna tell people that reading digits is meetings . And similarly we 're not gonna tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . But if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: There 's a couple other questions that I have too , professor d: You know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , consent issues ? And the other one is , what about transcription ? Are ? phd e: Transcription is done in Munich . phd i: That 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gonna follow the SmartKom transcription conventions and not the ICSI meeting transcription conventions . But I 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . Do we h do we have , American - born folk , reading German German , pla , place names and so forth ? Is that ? phd e: Yeah . professor d: Heidelberg grad f: So phd i: Exactly grad f: Disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , get some more disk pretty soon . grad f: We 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we shouldn't be on . So , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , seventy - five percent . phd b: Well , when I was looking for space for Thilo , I found one disk that had , I think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: Were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: Those were non - backed - up . The non - backed - up , phd b: I haven't looked to see how much of that we have . So , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: You can I shouldn't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . professor d: Yeah , I me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . professor d: We 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , I guess . phd i: Well , I think I think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , heavily accessed . It 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: It 's the back - up system . phd b: I think I think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . phd b: And we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of Abbott at once . phd i: I think I think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the What about putting the stuff on , like , C - CD - ROM or DVD or something ? grad f: Yeah . The the th phd i: But they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: Yep . grad f: But the r the write once , and the read - writes , don't last . postdoc a: Would it be ? professor d: Year or two ? grad f: Yep . phd i: But if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: Yeah . phd i: and professor d: yeah , all the L grad f: I I don't know many people who do it on CD . , they 're the most fo professor d: LDC - all the LDC distributions are on CD - ROM . grad f: They 're on CD , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . But if you go if you go k phd i: But , you know , we have phd g: But we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: We have all sorts of CD - ROMs from a long time ago . grad f: The the pressed ones last for phd g: usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . grad f: But , the burned ones , when I say two or three years what I 'm saying is that I have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: That 's what I grad f: On the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . But , I I you don't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: So how about ? So so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on DAT or some other medium that isn't risky ? grad f: I think th , we can already put them on tape . Well , if if if you if they last Say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you don't . Can't you just you just put them on ? grad h: So you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on CD as well ? phd i: Yeah . phd b: What 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the C Ds every year . professor d: Well grad f: Well , the C Ds are are an op phd e: Yeah . professor d: You know I would think grad f: So for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: One one thing I don't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , more than once . grad f: Well , regardless Well , first of all there was , a problem with the archive in that I was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they weren't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: grad f: and I was just , doing a minus R star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: But but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something hasn't changed and doesn't need to be backed - up again . professor d: The b I think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would kill that . grad f: Sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . So , what if we buy , what what do they call these , high density ? grad f: Well , why don't you have this have a this conversation with Dave Johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: No , no . Because this is maybe something that we can do without involving Dave , and and , putting more burden on him . How about we buy , one of these high density tape drives ? And we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . And we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we don't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: Actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . What kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: I dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: Is it is ? professor d: Wh The o the one that we have ? grad f: You just run a program to restore them . phd i: But it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: But professor d: No , we have s we Don't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: Something wi th that doesn't that isn't used by the back - up gang ? Don't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: Well they phd b: What kinda tape drive ? professor d: Just in ? Yeah . So your your point is , and I think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . professor d: Yeah , that 's basically what I was gonna say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . professor d: And we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd g: So , who 's gonna do these back - ups ? The people that collect it ? grad f: Well , I 'll talk to Dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: It 's probably gonna n grad f: There 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . That 's what I 'm wondering , if grad f: Well we 're g we 're gonna automate that . phd g: you don't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: No . phd i: Yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . phd i: Yeah , just give a dedi grad f: It we already have it there and it it 's phd i: Well , I 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to Dave , and and and ask him " can I use your tape robot ? " , he will say , " well that 's gonna screw up our back - up operation . He 'll say " if if that means that it 's not gonna be backed - up standardly , great . phd g: What about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . grad f: And then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wanna do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . grad f: NW ? postdoc a: You saying NW archive ? grad f: NW archive . postdoc a: Yep And if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . phd i: Well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: Well , but you can have it NW archive to you can have , a non - backed - up disk NW archived , grad f: Right . phd i: So that so that otherwise you don't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: So , that means we 'll probably wanna convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . professor d: another , thing on the agenda said SRI recognition experiments ? What 's that ? phd i: SRI recognition ? Oh . Chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: N I 'm successfully , increasing the error rate . So , I 'm just playing with , the number of Gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: Well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . It sai because , the meeting before , you said " OK , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent " . phd i: So so , when So I I had I ha grad f: That was a quick response . phd i: So , we had reached the point where phd g: I 'm well rehearsed . phd i: we had reached the point where , on the male portion of the development set , the , or one of the development sets , I should say the , the male error rate with , ICSI PLP features was pretty much identical with , SRI features . phd i: So , phd g: Is there less training data ? phd i: phd g: we don phd i: No , actually there 's more training data . So , so then Oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization didn't actually made things worse . phd i: So So professor d: So but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . And what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the SRI front - end . professor d: but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: Well , So I just d so the one thing that I then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the So , most most Hub - five systems actually band - limit the , at about , thirty - seven hundred , hertz . So , And I 'm now , trying the Oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . So , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . phd i: And you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . phd i: And so the It now helps , if you do it only on the test , and I 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . So But there 's It looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , for the females . phd i: And it is true that the , that the you know , we are using the But it can't be just the VTL , professor d: - huh . phd i: because if you don't do VTL in both systems , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the PLP features . phd g: Well , what 's the standard ? Yeah , so I thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . phd i: that ye overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . We 're looking at the discrepancy between the SRI system and the SRI system when trained with ICSI features . I 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: What 's Are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: You 're This is lemme ask a q more basic que phd g: Cuz professor d: is this , iterative , Baum - Welch training ? phd i: professor d: Or is it Viterbi training ? Or ? phd i: It 's Baum - Welch training . And how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: Well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . , which Eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze And it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . It might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: Or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . professor d: it 's it 's phd i: No , but with Baum - Welch , there shouldn't be an over - fitting issue , really . grad f: Well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: . professor d: It d if you if you remember some years ago Bill Byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: can't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . We can Well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: Yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: Do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: And in each case , ho grad f: What ? professor d: I 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? The , the , language , scaling , acoustic scaling , phd i: I I 'm actually re - optimizing them . And the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , Remember that one ? phd i: Pruning ? professor d: Well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of PLP versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: Pruning in the ? phd b: Yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the PLP . professor d: And so , there 's the question phd i: I you mean did you see this in the SRI system ? phd b: Well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: You can't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . professor d: But , still it 's a question phd i: So professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: Well , yeah . phd b: if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: We prune very conservatively . , as we saw with the meeting data , we could probably tighten the pruning without really So we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: Right ? Here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . Right ? But but but but , let 's suppose just for a second that , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , between the two . professor d: we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: Actually , there is the difference in that . grad f: And what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: Well , now it 's the same . But professor d: Before we i i th with straight PLP , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: Well But professor d: But then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . phd i: Since currently the Feacalc program doesn't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . phd i: And , I did the experiment on the SRI front - end where I tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . So , it 's not I don't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge difference . professor d: So , f i We 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , PLP , and and the reason PLP has been advantageous in , slightly noisy situations is because , PLP does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: So one thing I haven't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . So right now , we 're using a I don't know , forty ? I i it 's it 's eh it 's a f training set that 's about , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . phd i: And the Baum - Welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . phd i: And so , w so , just so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: Now the other que related question , though , is is , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: Th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . So we compute , So , we start with a , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . So we com we do a , you know , w We collect the , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . And then , from there we do , There 's a lot of , actually The way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . And then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: Yeah . This it migh Th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: phd i: Yeah , but professor d: you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though You know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . I 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: But but but , what I 'm what I 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: So , we e w f w For a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . phd i: And with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . phd i: And so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . phd i: So , what I 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . But it it I st still see it as , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: Yeah . professor d: but but I I I th I think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: Yeah . Anyway , I I I should really reserve , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , and until we 've seen the results with the with the VTL in training . At some point you also might wanna take the same thing and try it on , some Broadcast News data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . grad h: ! professor d: So , is there something quick about Absinthe that you ? phd i: With this said . Just what we were talking about before , which is that I ported a Blass library to Absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . grad f: I 'm in the process of doing it for Quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that I was estimating it should be , and I 'm not sure why . But the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll Absinthe will be a good machine . phd i: A few more processors ? How many are you shooting for ? grad f: There 're five now . grad f: And it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: Can you mix t , processors of different speed ? grad f: I don't think so . grad f: We 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , Netfinity server . And , so , these are the demos for the , July , meeting and , DARPA mee grad f: July what ? Early July ? Late July ? professor d: Oh , I think it 's July fifteenth . So , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that But I think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , I think , probably , Adam and and , Chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . Gets our grad f: Which is gonna be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . So , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: Alright . grad f: not between And , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gonna read everyone all at once

The team was using TIMIT to look for features and found that the feature classification had means of 0.3 for voiced and 0.59 for unvoiced on voice-unvoice, with high variance. The professor believed that the team's intuition was guiding them towards statistically characterizing what was missing from the spectral envelope, including things potentially lost in the smoothing process. In discussing the corpus, the team debated the extent of segmentation and which recordings to include, expressing the need to filter out breath and non-verbal sounds. They also considered creating a separate directory for two-person conversations and transcripts that deviated from the general meeting setup. While some systems in Aurora performed poorly, the Alcatel systems showed better results, although the Danish model did not improve overall. However, the team's models led to improvements, particularly in the Danish language.

Summarize the discussion on feature classification, meeting corpus structure, model errors, and the Professor's opinion on Danish and German models.

Can I welcome Members to the virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee this afternoon? In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Thursday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. Aside from the procedural adaptation related to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. Can I remind everyone that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David AM, and there is no substitution. Can I just note for the record that if for any reason I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Moving on, then, to item 2 this afternoon, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government in relation to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on health and social services as they relate to children and young people in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Vaughan Gething AM, the Minister for Health and Social Services; Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Albert Heaney, deputy director general of the health and social services group; Nicola Edwards, deputy director, childcare, play and early years; Jean White, chief nursing officer; and Tracey Breheny, who is deputy director of mental health, substance misuse and vulnerable groups. We've got lots of questions that we'd like to cover, which we'll go straight into, with questions from Siân Gwenllian. How much do we understand about how this virus impacts children and young people, and their role in transmitting the virus? And how important is it that this is considered in the Welsh Government's exit strategy, especially in the context of reopening schools? vaughan gething am: Okay. I think it's fair to say that our understanding is developing across all age ranges about the virus and its impact. It's still the case that children and young people are less likely to be affected significantly by COVID-19 than people with a range of healthcare conditions, and in particular the age grade that we've seen, and that's underpinned the advice we've given to the whole population about self-isolation by people in age categories, as well as the extremely vulnerable group we advise to shield. We still don't understand everything about the role that children have to play in the transmitting of the virus, and this is one of the difficulties we face. Because in cold and flu, children transmit the virus and they're also susceptible, in particular to the flu, as well; that's why we have a childhood immunisation programme for the flu as well. We do know that there's some developing evidence about what's called a Kawasaki-like syndrome, but that's affecting very small numbers of children. We have one possible case in Wales—a child who's in critical care—but that isn't confirmed. But the generals still apply—that children are less likely to be affected than older people, but can nevertheless still become unwell, and that's, if you like, one of the few positives in this condition. But as I say, we're still learning, so I won't try and present a fully accurate or finalised picture of knowledge in this area. sian gwenllian am: And in terms—[Inaudible.] vaughan gething am: Chair. Sorry—with apologies to the Member, my translation stopped after a while, so I heard the first part translated, and then it just fell off. I'm really sorry, but I didn't want to try to answer a different question to the one that may be being asked, and don't think that's fair to the Member or other members of the committee. lynne neagle am: Can we check that translation is back on, please, and maybe Siân could repeat her question? vaughan gething am: I can hear it, yes. lynne neagle am: Okay, Siân, would you mind repeating that, please? sian gwenllian am: Not at all. I was discussing NHS services, including critical care services, and I was asking whether there is sufficient capacity in place to manage any increase. We, of course, hope that there won't be any increase, but should there be an increase, particularly in paediatric cases of coronavirus—let's say such a thing were to happen and this rare syndrome that you mentioned did emerge here in Wales—do we have the capacity in place to deal with these, and with the impact of coronavirus more generally on children? vaughan gething am: At this point in time, the answer is 'yes', and there is always a significant caveat, though, and the 'but' that comes in there is that despite the fact that we've got a plan for surge capacity in paediatric care—. So, when we increased critical care right across the national health service, we of course looked at paediatric care as part of that as well. But the challenge in all of that this is—it's part of my caution and the Government's caution about moves out of lockdown. So, it's much easier to go into lockdown than to come out of it, and I know you heard evidence from the Minister for Education last week about the approach that she wants to take and the principles behind doing that. So, actually, we'll need to think carefully about if we are reopening schools, even on a limited basis, what that then does to the circulation of coronavirus within that group of children as well as within the wider community, and then to try to understand whether the current capacity we have planned for in surge capacity is still going to be enough, because, actually, one of the real success stories of the first stage of the fight with coronavirus is that we haven't had our critical care capacity filled up. It's been extended, and the extension has meant that we haven't been overtopped. If we hadn't done that, we definitely would have been. And we'll need to carry on testing ourselves and seeing what's happening and looking at the evidence and making sure that the plan we already have got that we published for paediatric critical care is still fit for purpose, and again to reconsider if we need to do things differently. But that's part of the difficulty of being a Minister at the moment—you don't know everything that's coming, and on this disease in particular, we do know that we're still learning with each passing day. lynne neagle am: [Inaudible.]—Siân? sian gwenllian am: Hello. Right, we'll move on now then to some question on access to health services from Dawn Bowden. Minister, just some concern that you will have heard about in terms of parents and carers maybe not taking their children into the healthcare system for other conditions while the coronavirus pandemic is with us. How are you monitoring that situation at the moment and have you had to look at your own commutation strategy in relation to that? vaughan gething am: We've had to look at some specifics around communication, so challenges about not just different languages, but about how we get messages to people in a very different environment, and it's really challenging. We've had to think about the way it works, and I had this conversation earlier this week with the chief nurse. I understand people's fear and anxiety, but that then means that their family, and in particular their child, isn't getting the sort of proactive care that we would want them to have. So, there's a real concern both at the professional leadership end and for the chief nurse and for Ministers as well about how we can get through. That's actually about rebuilding people's confidence in the service, and that isn't straightforward because there's a broader concern about coronavirus still circulating. But I think for us it's really important to reiterate that we have thought again about how to provide the service. We've thought about how to protect staff and families and the very clear message to parents is to please make sure that when health and care professionals are calling to help and support your family, please discuss your concerns with them. There are times you need to be physically in the same place, for example on routine vaccinations, because we certainly haven't stopped that programme either, and I really wouldn't want to see that one of the unintended consequences of what we've done is that if parents don't engage with that service, we could potentially see a rise in other diseases. We're all, I think—not just you in your constituency, but others who are on this call and others as well—seeing an occasional reappearance of measles, and that's because people didn't engage with the vaccination programme. I don't want, either myself or a different health Minister in the future, to be sat here talking about how in years to come the failure to engage in a vaccination programme has led to clearly avoidable but significant harm to children and young people and the communities they live in. So, I approached the immunisation lead in Public Health Wales to see exactly what has been happening recently and they said at the very beginning of the outbreak parents were very reluctant about coming forward for their routine immunisations, but recently, through lots of energy from the immunisation clinics and the leads within it reaching out to families, that trend seems to have turned and there's now a much better attendance. One of the most important things we can do to protect our children is to make sure they have their vaccinations. So, yes, there was a bit of a downturn, but it does seem to be improving at the moment. We're going to go on now to some questions about mental health from Siân Gwenllian. sian gwenllian am: It's a cause of great concern to us all, of course, in terms of the impact of this crisis on mental health and well-being among our children and young people. So, what assessment has the Government undertaken of the impact on these aspects in young people and what work is being done to understand the impact of the pandemic? What longer term measures will be put in place and what support services will be put in place? vaughan gething am: Again, I think it's helpful that you've already heard from the education Minister last week, because I think the first of her key principles for returning to school is the impact on the emotional health and well-being of children. So, children's mental health was a central concern and remains so for both myself and the education Minister. Part of the honest challenge, again, is that we don't fully understand the impact on the mental health and well-being of children but we do expect there will have been an impact. So, we're working together with both health boards and our own knowledge and analytical services across the Government to both try to further understand what that is and the difference. Until we have more contact with families, we may not fully understand that, and that's a real point of concern for me. In all of the unknowns within this, the impact on mental health and well-being is absolutely one of them, because we're looking at how we then develop not just a recovery plan for the economy but a recovery plan around mental health, how we support people, and that will have to be informed by the understanding of what's happening when we get more engagement with families about the level of need, and then how we need to think about that. Obviously, it's a key factor for their return to school, but, actually, for the life children and young people lead outside the school environment, and that will be difficult because we're going to phase out of lockdown—it's not going to be a one-hit measure. We're going to be looking at, at each point, what difference has been made, what more we can do. And, again, there are the efforts we're making to make sure that our online support services and our telephone support services—that we keep on reminding people that they're there and are available, and we want people to make use of them, because I know, as this committee said, we'd much rather be able to support people and intervene earlier rather than wait until there's a much bigger problem in a period of months in the future. sian gwenllian am: So, in reality, there's been no assessment undertaken because it's difficult to do that. So, the full picture in terms of the outcomes of the crisis—you don't know what they are at the moment as things stand. vaughan gething am: We can't know, because we don't have that level of contact. I wouldn't say that no work's being done, but I couldn't tell you honestly that that work is finalised and we have a definitive understanding of the picture. If I tried to say that, then I'm sure you'd ask me, 'How on earth can you say that? If you're not having regular contact with people, you can't possibly understand the picture.' And it's much better to say, 'We don't understand the full picture. We're working alongside health boards and others, but we'll know more as we carry on having more contact with families.' I'll look at a variety of different areas, again, both to reform the recovery plan, but also then to understand what we need to do at various points in the future, and the picture that we're seeing isn't straightforward and we need to make sure that we don't try to pretend to ourselves or to the public that there is a one-off measure that will allow us to be successful in all the areas that we'd want to be. sian gwenllian am: But can you give the committee an assurance today that this area of mental health and well-being is going to be a priority for you as health Minister? vaughan gething am: Of course. Not just on the work we've done in the past; not just because it's one of the key principles for the education Minister about the reopening of schools, but it is a real worry list for me about how we understand the impact on the mental health and well-being of children and young people, and to move forwards, that we don't end up with an entire generation of children and young people who grow up with a range of damage because we haven't thought about what that will look like. In amongst all the other priorities I have, I'm certainly not going to allow the mental health and well-being of children and young people to be forgotten. sian gwenllian am: And how does the current capacity in terms of child and adolescent mental health services compare to service capacity prior to the coronavirus outbreak in Wales? Have you had to shift some resources over from CAMHS, for example, in order to deal with more general aspects of coronavirus? vaughan gething am: No, we've actually got—. Maybe perhaps it might be helpful, Chair, if Tracey Breheny could say something about the way that we're monitoring the impact we have, in terms of we've got a reporting tool, but also weekly contact with leads in CAMHS services. Yes, on that question, we moved pretty quickly at the beginning of the pandemic phase to put in place, as the Minister said, a weekly monitoring tool of all local health boards, so through that tool, we look at that every week in terms of collecting information. Whilst national reporting's been stood down, we are picking up assurance through that tool on things like staff sickness in CAMHS services, referral numbers and so on, so we do have that tool in place, and at the moment, that's telling us that the system can meet the capacity; has the capacity to meet need. sian gwenllian am: Have CAMHS staff been shifted over to do other work during this virus outbreak? tracey breheny: There has been some movement, as I'm saying, around health boards, particularly where in the first phase of the epidemic the concentration was on in-patient provision, providing critical care, but my understanding is from the latest tool that we looked at last week, those staff are gradually not just returning to work from self-isolation or whatever, or from different parts of the system. sian gwenllian am: And then, what about the capacity for CAMHS primary mental health services? Has there been a reduction in that capacity since the beginning of the pandemic in terms of in-patients? Because that's what I'm hearing, that there has been such a reduction, but how are those patients then treated and served? tracey breheny: In terms of in-patient capacity, that is in the system in both the north Wales and in the south Wales unit at the moment. There were some discharges of young people, but we've had the assurance that that was only undertaken where it was clinically safe to do so and where the community support was in place. sian gwenllian am: And finally in this section from me, given that schools are of course closed and that schools are so very important in terms of signposting young people towards services, how can young people access appropriate services—online services, for example? How are they signposted towards those services at the moment? vaughan gething am: Well, we've not closed off general practice and, as you know, we've expanded the ability for people to access services in an online manner. We've expanded a range of telephone advice services, so the telephone advice service we already provide, we've made sure that's maintained, and both myself and the deputy Minister have referred to that on a number of occasions. I think the real struggle and the real difficulty is actually how you punch through different messages when the broader news agenda is so overwhelmingly focused on headline messages in other areas. That is, again, a worry for me, but the communications we have within the health and care system, people should know where to refer people to and how to provide access to both telephone and online support that continues to be available, and actually, as I say, we've expanded that right across our healthcare system. Whatever the post-COVID-19 world is, I don't want to miss out on the progress we have made in the online provision of services. Of course, most children and young people expect to be able to access services in an online manner already. sian gwenllian am: But, of course, there will be some who are missed; they may fall between two stools because they won’t know where to turn. vaughan gething am: Yes, and that, again, comes back to our challenge of how we help children and young people in their context, with their families, to know where support and advice and guidance is. Many people are defaulting to their general practitioner if they can't find advice somewhere else, so that's why there's the information we're providing through general practice to signpost people, so those pathways haven’t been closed off. It's about making sure that people have alternative means that they’re prepared to use at this point in time. If we go back to where we started this evidence session, we were talking about the difficulty of families who don't want to engage in a traditional person-to-person contact or being in the same room as someone else or allowing people into their home. So, there's a real challenge about how we make the service available, but then encourage people to take it up, so that we don’t see much greater harm that we have to try and resolve at a later point. I've got a supplementary from Suzy Davies, and can I remind Ministers about concise answers, please? Suzy. Just as we're speaking about children and young people's mental health, I wonder if you can confirm whether you've seen the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child's reports about what they call the grave physical and psychological effect on children and young people, and whether the operational guidance you've given out is responding to that in any way, or maybe there was something in that that you hadn’t thought of and you can respond to as we go along. vaughan gething am: I, personally, haven't read that advice, but the Government's already concerned about the direct physical and mental health impact of lockdown restrictions. You don't need to be a parent to recognise that that’s a potential issue for children and young people. I haven't read it, but that's been signposted, so I can check with officials if they have and if that would change the advice and the position that we're already adopting, because we do regularly look at a range of advice from a range of sources, including the UN, the World Health Organization and others. But, as you know, Minister, the prevention of young suicide is a cause that is very close to my heart. Can I ask what assessment the Welsh Government has made of an increase in suicide amongst children and young people during this pandemic and because of this pandemic? vaughan gething am: Apart from the general concern that I've expressed on mental health generally, we are already investigating, we're having a—. We've commissioned, through the Government, the delivery unit to work with the national advisory group, including Dr Ann John and other people, to review the current, unexpected deaths during the start of the pandemic here in Wales, because we want to try to understand the wider concerns about the potential effects of the restrictions on the mental health and well-being of children and young people, and if that is leading to a spike in suicide or not. So, that's why we've commissioned that review to be carried out with the current numbers of unexpected deaths that we have, so we're able then to provide a report to understand where we are. My understanding is that we should have a report on that review before the end of this month and, obviously, I know the committee’s got an interest, so if it's helpful we can write to you once we've had a chance to receive the report and to look at it. In terms of provision of crisis care, then, how has that been impacted by the pandemic? Are those crisis services available for children and young people who need them at the moment? vaughan gething am: Yes, they continue to be available. We've made clear that mental health services, including those for children and young people, are essential services to be provided. We have built up those crisis care services over a period of time, and the last thing we want to see is to see them disappear during this period of time when there are well-understood concerns about emotional and mental health. Moving on to perinatal mental health, this morning I hosted a round-table with the NSPCC where we heard about lots of good practice that's going on in terms of supporting new mothers and their families in this period, but I wonder if you can tell the committee what you are doing as a Government to make sure that there is consistent perinatal support for all women across Wales in what is a difficult time for any new mother, let alone in a pandemic. We've also been looking at how that's provided on a phone or online basis where possible, because again the same concerns exist about physical contact with people. So, we're looking to make sure that the progress isn't lost that we've made. And again, part of the challenge in all of this is about the pause or the interruption in work to create the in-patient capacity that I've previously committed to. So, I want to understand what that really means, but again the problem is, at this point in the pandemic, I can't give you an answer about what that means for that in-patient provision. We're still committed to it, but I'm concerned about the time frame—that is partly about the length and the extent. But again, I'm really impressed by the continuing commitment of our staff to deliver this service for women in what is a particularly uncertain time. It's difficult enough in terms of the challenge in terms of perinatal mental health in normal times, about people being prepared to come forward and then receiving the sort of response they'd want, and even more so now. lynne neagle am: Is the Welsh Government aware that there's apparently been a decrease in the numbers of women being willing to look at mother and baby unit provision, and will you be taking that into account in your planning? Because, obviously, we wouldn't want people to think that was because of a lack of need; it's down to fear and the lockdown. vaughan gething am: Yes, we're aware there's been a reduction in people wanting to make use of the service—or being prepared to make use of the service is probably a better phrase—because we know that's the same with a range of other areas. There aren't fewer people having strokes than there were at this period of time last year; the reason why the figures are different is the way that people are behaving because of their concerns about coronavirus. So, I certainly wouldn't be using this period of time to plan for the need that exists for a facility that we want to create. Obviously, we have the detail of the third sector resilience fund and the—there are two funds, aren't there, for third sector organisations? But can you give us some indication of how much of that support is being targeted to children and young people, and perhaps you can specifically mention how much of the £6.3 million for hospices is for children's hospices? I don't mind who answers that one. Certainly, I'm sure the committee is aware, as Suzy has said, of the funds that are available for third sector services. The Deputy Minister and the Chief Whip, of course, announced on 6 April the £24 million Welsh Government third sector COVID-19 response fund, and that of course is more than we would have had as a result of consequentials from the UK Government. They can also benefit from the £400 million economic resilience fund, but I am aware that some groups don't benefit from that and they may not qualify for that. So, we've also got third sector support being delivered by WCVA, such as the voluntary services emergency fund, which supports volunteering, and the third sector resilience fund, supporting organisations to stay afloat. We are working very closely with the third sector on issues such as support for fostering services, care leavers and repurposing funding so that they can support the crises. Voices from Care Cymru has developed a specific offer for care leavers, and the Fostering Network provides extended helplines. And, actually, about 50 per cent of contact with Childline at the moment is to do with COVID-19. The NSPCC UK helpline have also reported a decrease in calls resulting in a referral to children's social services at the start of the lockdown period, but, since then, the numbers have actually risen. Meic, Action for Children, and, of course, Voices From Care Cymru have come up with their own specific package. In terms of the actual percentage that is being spent on children, I can't give you an actual figure for that, but, certainly, there are a whole range of projects that are there helping children. vaughan gething am: It's about £1.5 million from the £6.3 million that's gone to Tŷ Gobaith and Tŷ Hafan, Suzy. Perhaps if you could ask the Deputy Minister, when she's in a position to do so, to let us have a note. Before we finish on this point, could I ask the Deputy Minister, again, about whether any of the things you've been talking about now is additional money, because, obviously, you mentioned yourself one of these funds is £24 million. So, again, if you don't have the answer to hand, perhaps you could send us a note in due course about how much extra is going in. I think most of those things I mentioned are things that are already there, and the £24 million is for support and extra help. dawn bowden am: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Deputy Minister, because one of the questions I was going to ask was around some of the work that you've been doing with the third sector on safeguarding and child protection, and I think you've covered that. But what I'm particularly keen to find out is how you're monitoring the impact of coronavirus on child protection and safeguarding in the round. I know the health Minister raised this as a concern in Plenary only recently, and it's really how we are monitoring it, what concerns have been identified, and how we're going to start to tackle some of those. Obviously, it is difficult to monitor if there's not easy access to the children that we're referring to, and that's why we have been trying to encourage the vulnerable children to go into school or childcare settings. The Minister, the director of education and the director of social services sent out a joint letter recently to all the local authorities, asking them to try to encourage the vulnerable children and the families to get the children to go to school. In fact, we've now got 890 vulnerable children attending school settings, and that's the highest number that we've had at all since the opening of the scheme. But, of course, there are a lot of children who are not attending school and the social services are not necessarily seeing. Those numbers are now beginning to go up, but there certainly was a significant drop, which is a great deal of concern. One local authority, in fact, reported a drop of 27 per cent in terms of safeguarding referrals compared to this time last year. So, I issued a written statement on 1 May, setting out the work taken forward under our cross-departmental vulnerable children, young people and safeguarding work stream, and encouraging people to report any safeguarding concerns there are. Because, obviously, we are dependent on the public authorities—you know, schools and health services—to report any concerns, and at the moment, obviously, they're not there to report them. So, we have made this public appeal for everyone to look out for each other, and I was very interested in what Siân Gwenllian told me about what was being done in Anglesey in terms of sending out a message via social media to get people to look and listen, and to raise their concerns, because, obviously, safeguarding is the concern of everybody in the community. But I think that we are reassured in terms of our contact with the local authorities that they are, in fact, keeping close touch, as far as they possibly can, with all the children that are vulnerable. For those where it is very critical, face-to-face contact is still taking place, and there are imaginative ways of trying to keep in touch with all the other children and families. So, it is a difficult situation and we are concerned about it, but I think as much as possible is being done. professor jean white: Just to add to what the Deputy Minister was saying, the health visiting service has not been stopped or stepped back. It has consolidated some of the ways that it does the Healthy Child Wales Programme, but, for those families that are identified as having particular need or have children that are particularly vulnerable, all the normal contacts have been maintained, so they're not unseen to the normal health visiting service. dawn bowden am: Thank you, Jean, for that, and, Deputy Minister, would there be any value at this point in actually revisiting the current Welsh Government definition and guidance around vulnerable children, in terms of who we identify as vulnerable? Because this opens up a whole new group of children that are not necessarily known to services but can still be vulnerable. Do you think that needs revisiting at all? julie morgan am: The definition of vulnerable children and young people includes those with a social worker and with statements of special educational needs, and the most vulnerable of these should be prioritised. But we have now looked at this again, and we've set out an expanded definition, and we intend to publish that this week. This does include discretion for local authorities to have some flexibility and to be able to offer a place for those who may be on the edge of receiving care and support if they are known to be vulnerable by the school or by family support services. Because, obviously, the children that we know about, we know about, but there are those other children who may be on the edge of care—the children that we've been trying very hard, as part of our policies in the Welsh Government, to keep with their families, with a lot of support. So, we are giving discretion to the local authorities in order to have a degree of flexibility, and that will be published this week. We're going to move on now, then, to talk about looked-after children and children on the edge of care, with questions from Janet Finch-Saunders. Can you set out the impact the coronavirus emergency has had on the care system, including edge-of-care services, and where have there been areas of concern? julie morgan am: Well, local authorities have obviously had to change their working practices in response to the COVID emergency, so a red-amber-green rating risk assessment was adopted by all local authorities at the start of the pandemic to ensure that vulnerable children and families receive the right way of receiving services and the frequency of contact from the services. This is being dealt with on a case-by-case basis, so every case that is known is being RAG rated and services are being linked to that. I can't speak too highly, really, about the amount of support and mutual work that has been going on. We've been assured that there have been no significant increases in the numbers of looked-after children, and the number of placement breaks are minimal. The other interesting good point is the children services workforce remains at 90 per cent plus, and, obviously, that is a great testimony to the dedication of the workforce. The children are all being monitored individually, and I think in the circumstances we're all doing what we possibly can. I know that Albert Heaney is able, probably, to respond in more detail to the contacts, if you'd like to have that. How is Welsh Government ensuring that vulnerable children have access to the necessary technology to maintain contact with their social workers and other support workers and networks? julie morgan am: It is normal practice to ensure that children and families do have appropriate access to technology to keep in touch with social workers, so that is part of our normal practice. We're very keen as a Welsh Government that no children are left behind in their education during this period. So, last month, as you will know, the Minister for Education announced £3 million of funding to help digitally excluded learners so that they've got access to the internet, so that they can fully participate in online learning. Can you set out the picture regarding children's residential care? What are the challenges these care settings are facing, and have any children's homes closed? julie morgan am: Residential children's homes are not really reporting any particularly difficult issues, and certainly they have been able to resolve any issues that have happened. We obviously expect all children in residential care to be supported, and to keep contact with their families and with their siblings, and that is going on, although it may be by technology rather than face to face. We know that some young people have found the social distancing a challenge, and I think it’s easy for us to understand that they have found that quite difficult. So, there have been a few issues related to that, but, where that has happened, local authorities have been able to resolve that on a case-by-case basis, and really there are not any major issues. There are fewer children and young people there, so, in fact, there's been an opportunity to give a great deal of attention to the children, and I think we've had very good reports about how that has happened. I also meet with the children's commissioner once a week, who is an independent source, and she said when I met her last week, 'Well, as far as we know, it's all good news'. Moving on to foster care, how is Welsh Government working with local authorities to meet the challenges set out by the Association of Fostering and Adoption Cymru and its fostering guidelines? julie morgan am: We have worked with the fostering organisations. We have had close communications with them, and we've supported AFA Cymru to develop guidance for foster carers, and that guidance has been very strongly welcomed across the sector. I think I mentioned before specific issues such as support for fostering services and, of course, care leavers. The Fostering Network has extended its helpline hours, and, of course, Voices from Care—I mentioned them before—have developed this particular offer of support for care leavers. I've been reassured, as well, from Voices from Care that the young people appear to be more stable now—that they have contact with. janet finch-saunders am: So, the final point on that, then: the Fostering Network and others, as you know, have called for foster parents who can temporarily no longer foster due to the current virus emergency to be paid a retainer, with all foster carers receiving extra financial support for additional expenses. What is your position on this, please? julie morgan am: Well, we haven't had any specific representations from local authorities asking for support for foster carers, but some local authorities have paid retainers and some people, I believe, have increased the amount of money that they are paying. They've also given support for various activities and things—have helped sometimes, I think, with broadband access and that sort of issue. And, obviously, foster carers who do require additional support should be approaching their local authorities or the independent fostering agency. The Minister has indicated that we are speaking weekly with heads of children's services, and we do now have a data collection that's been implemented to capture the critical data in relation to the children's services. I just wanted to have a quick answer from probably the Minister, I think, about the primary legislation and the regulations that followed, about which children's rights impact assessments have been done. Have any been done, and can they be shared with the committee if they have? Sorry, Deputy Minister—my mistake. julie morgan am: Well, it's been a very difficult time, as you appreciate, in terms of having to make legislation very quickly, and it hasn't been possible to do the impact assessments that we would normally do. And this is to try to get from children their views of what's happened, what we've been doing, and their views on the whole COVID-19 situation. So, we're doing this in conjunction with the children's commissioner and with Young Wales and with the Youth Parliament. So, this is an online survey that we hope will be going out to thousands of children, and we will get their response in terms of what are the important issues that have arisen for them, what they feel about what's happened during this period, what they feel about the way that we've dealt with the schools, the way that they've had to cope in not going school and being at home for so long. So, I'm very pleased that we're doing that, but, in terms of an impact assessment, it has been very difficult, as I'm sure you can imagine, to be able to do those at these times. Just to say for the committee, really importantly, that we haven't introduced any easements in relation to children's services legislation. So, from a Welsh context, the standards that are in place do remain, so therefore there wouldn't have been a necessity for us to do a children's rights impact assessment in relation to the primary legislation. I think that's particularly a strong point to us in Wales, both in terms of safeguarding arrangements, but also ensuring that children's rights are protected at a crucial time. In terms of childcare and education, we're obviously looking at the provisions under the coronavirus Act to allow us to maybe ease some of the statutory requirements, and we are going to be undertaking a full suite of impact assessments on those. Obviously, the coronavirus Act itself was UK Government legislation and they ran their own impact assessments, but, in terms of how we implement it in the childcare and education space—and I think Albert was just saying the same thing—we definitely will be looking at those impacts in terms of going forward. Well, just to come back on that then, are you saying to me that, as a result of the various coronavirus regulations that we've had, no assessments for children's needs have been postponed, cancelled or done very quickly online rather than in person? julie morgan am: Well, I think, as Albert said, that there was no relaxation of regulation for children's social care. There's no relaxation, but what's happening in practice? We're down on staff across all our councils and in our third sectors—who's doing the children's needs assessments, particularly for young carers? julie morgan am: Well, I—. Albert, can you answer that? albert heaney: I think the first thing to say to the committee is that, going back, we took a very strong line at the beginning that we weren't going to introduce easements in requirements to children's social services. Of course, through the way that practitioners and social work practitioners have to operate, they are having to operate through a different time. So, assessments are still taking place for child protection and safeguarding concerns; assessments are still taking place, and especially in relation to—as you mentioned—young carers, to support their needs. So, arrangements—[Inaudible.] But they're having to be slightly differently done—so, some of the technology, and keeping in contact and keeping those visits. So, we've used, for example, the St David's Day fund to make sure that care leavers are well supported in terms of having contact and are accessible and able to engage as well. So, we're having to be a little bit more—and social services departments are having to be a little bit more—innovative in the use of technology in the way that they've engaged as well. But personal visits are taking place, and visits especially, as the Minister mentioned earlier on—they actually individually assess each case to determine the frequency of visits, to make sure that those contacts are maintained with children at a critical time. I don't want to take this much further, but personal visits and social distancing could be slightly problematic. Have they been accepted by Government, and is it those that are driving the agenda of the task and finish group that you announced the other day, Deputy Minister? julie morgan am: Well, those will certainly be considered by the task and finish group. I've had a letter from the Carers Trust about those issues, and we are setting up this group, as you know, and we will be looking at those issues in the group. Any steal on when that might report? julie morgan am: I don't have that at the moment. Can I just say, we are running short of time? We did start late, so, if the Ministers are happy, we'll carry on until 2.10 p.m.—3.10 p.m.—if that's okay. sian gwenllian am: [Inaudible.] lynne neagle am: Hold on a sec, Siân, we've lost translation again. sian gwenllian am: You will know, Deputy Minister—because we have discussed this in private session—my major concerns with regard to the childcare sector, and what kind of childcare sector we will have at the end of this crisis, as families start to return to the workplace. There are still some childcare providers who are falling between the cracks and aren't receiving financial support. Do you agree—are there people who are still not being supported, and why isn't the Welsh Government able to provide that support for everyone in the childcare sector? julie morgan am: Thank you, Siân, for that question. Basically, we are aware that there are some sectors in the childcare sector that do fall through some of the loops. So, that is guaranteed to them, and they are able to take advantage of the Government's job retainer scheme, but that does mean that there is a problem, as I think we've discussed before, of the double funding issue, and that is something that we have been trying to resolve and there have been discussions with the Treasury in Whitehall about ways forward on this. I'm going to ask Nicola to come in in a minute, because she's much more up to date with the discussions about that, but, so far, I don't think very much progress has been made on that. But we are looking to see if there are any other ways that we can get help to the childcare sector, and I'm actually following this meeting with a meeting with the Deputy Minister for equality and chief whip, who is responsible for the voluntary sector, because obviously many of the groups that we're talking about would come under the voluntary sector, because they have voluntary committees, but they fall between many stools, because they rent premises rather than own premises and they don't have high turnovers that would qualify them for some of these grants. So, some childcare settings can access funding under the small business rate relief scheme, but certainly not all of them; some of them can access funding under the economic resilience fund, and, as the Deputy Minister said, we're following up for some of them to be able to access funding under the third sector resilience funding. All of the childcare settings can apply for the UK Government's coronavirus job retention scheme, but there are some complications around that in that it's a salary-based scheme and you can't claim two types of public funding for the same individual member of staff. So, if you were using funding under the childcare offer to pay for a particular member of staff's salary, you can't access CJRS and furlough that individual with Government money as well, and that has led to some confusion and complication about how that balances, which we're trying to work through with the sector and with local authorities around the rules and regulations that the Treasury and HMRC have put in place around that. Some of those are less attractive to some childcare settings, but they are still available and Business Wales is offering support and advice for settings on how they can help weather this storm and support their workers as best they can. We're also having some conversations now with our economy colleagues and with Business Wales about what happens next, the recovery and the return of the sector, and we've just come out of a meeting with the childcare sector around the support they think they would need to have in place to be able to return from this as well. sian gwenllian am: I'm sure you can share my concerns and the concerns of Cwlwm, which represents the childcare sector and the nursery school sector, that there are a number of providers that aren't receiving support at all and are likely to collapse as a result of this. What I can't understand is why you, in collaboration with the Minister for the economy, Ken Skates, can't devise a specific grant package for the providers that aren't currently receiving support, or we'll be facing a situation that is very difficult when people are seeking childcare for their children and those settings won't be available to them. Why isn't it possible to have a bespoke scheme for those that are falling between the cracks in this sector? julie morgan am: Well, that is what we're looking to see—if we can get a bespoke scheme. I absolutely agree with you: it is absolutely vital that we keep this sector going, because it is a fragile sector in any case, and I think about 50 per cent of the childcare settings have temporarily closed down and the reason they've given for closing down is because they haven't had enough children to make it viable to keep their settings going. They are heavily reliant on the fees that parents pay and, of course, with the social distancing and the lockdown, this has meant that we've had to discourage children from attending. So, that means the number of children they've had has been much reduced and it hasn't been viable for them to keep going, although obviously it's great that about half have stayed open so we have somewhere for the children of the critical workers and the vulnerable children to go. But, I absolutely agree with what you're saying, Siân, and we are looking for a solution, because we know it's vital not only for the children and their parents, but for the economy as well, that we do have that sector there, surviving after this is all over. So, I can assure you, we're working very hard, and I think Nicola's working day and night to try to achieve this. sian gwenllian am: And just finally from me, I'm very pleased that you are working on this, and I very much hope that we will see a support package that will reach everyone in the sector, because it's been weeks now since all of this started, and if there's still no light at the end of the tunnel for some of them, then that needs to be dealt with. But just to conclude, how effective has the provision been in general over this period in terms of providing support for key workers? julie morgan am: I think it's been crucial, because how would the majority of the key workers have been able to get to work and do all the wonderful things that they've been doing if it hadn't been for childcare for those who need it? And we were very pleased to introduce the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, which means that critical workers and families with vulnerable children are able to have free access to childcare aged 0 to 5, and I believe that we are the only country in the UK that is providing that free service to the vulnerable children, and so—. , that scheme has only really taken off now since Easter, so we don't have any particular statistics. nicola edwards: I do have some early numbers, if you'd like me to announce them? julie morgan am: Yes, that would be very good. In terms of the provision in schools, we're looking at around 4,000 children a day in schools at the moment. In terms of the children accessing the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, it has only been two weeks up and running really, so the numbers are quite low, but there were nearly 1,500 children accessing that childcare last week, and of those, just over 100 would fall within the definition of vulnerable children. So, it is picking up there; it was 900 children the week before that, so we are seeing some traction now that parents are aware that that support is there. And, can I just ask, in terms of the other vulnerable children, what assurance can you give that all the vulnerable children who need to keep in contact with social workers and other key workers are being provided with the necessary technology to do that? Is that happening in a uniform way? julie morgan am: Well, that is the intention—that everybody should have the opportunity to have the necessary technology, and certainly, that is what is intended. Suzy, very, very briefly, one question on the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, please. suzy davies am: Just generally, have you had any feedback on the effects on the family courts and the execution of the—well, the child arrangement orders, the various versions of that? julie morgan am: Yes. In terms of the family courts, as you probably know, a lot of the hearings are going on virtually, but the hearings that are more complex are being postponed to be heard at a later date. So, that's one of the issues, really—that we may expect a lot of demand on the court service after this period has finished. And obviously, the president of the family division has issued guidance on compliance with family court child arrangement orders, which were his guidance, and obviously, this is directed at separated families subject to the family court, and that offers general advice to parents, recognising that the circumstances for each parent and each family will be different. But of course, where parents have joint parental responsibility, as you know, the Government has said that children under 18 can be moved between the two households. With the other children, it's on a case-by-case basis, really, what actually happens. I have met with CAFCASS to see how their operations are going, and all the CAFCASS officials are not attending any courts at all; they're sending in any of their views virtually, but it appeared to be that there weren't any major issues arising. lynne neagle am: Okay, thank you, and we have definitely now come to the end of our time. So, can I thank the Ministers and officials for attending? We do recognise what an immensely pressurised time this is for Welsh Government, and we are very appreciative of having your time this afternoon, so thank you both to Ministers and officials. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you very much. This is, of course, our last formal business of the National Assembly for Wales before we become the Senedd tomorrow, and it seems fitting that the National Assembly's last formal proceedings are focused on children and young people, and I'm sure that we would all agree that it is vital that they continue to be at the centre of the work of our Parliament going forward<doc-sep>I've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Siân today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas? kirsty williams am: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could—? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. steve davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently—I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. kirsty williams am: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs. steve davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap. hefin david am: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents? kirsty williams am: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying, 'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.' So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. suzy davies am: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services' care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need. kirsty williams am: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate— kirsty williams am: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange, 'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.' My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. helen mary jones am: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group—and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the—. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. helen mary jones am: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad—. janet finch-saunders am: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses. lynne neagle am: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. dawn bowden am: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying, 'Well, what's going to happen to that?' Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff? steve davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing. dawn bowden am: So, would you anticipate—again, I know this is all a bit 'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings? janet finch-saunders am: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible.]—mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next—? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work? lynne neagle am: We've covered that, Janet. kirsty williams am: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. lynne neagle am: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think—? janet finch-saunders am: No, I heard that loud and clear. lynne neagle am: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. dawn bowden am: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. steve davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we’ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school. It’s likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that’s the right thing to do? kirsty williams am: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about. steve davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future. dawn bowden am: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again? kirsty williams am: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage? kirsty williams am: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses—people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates. hefin david am: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents' point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care. kirsty williams am: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially—and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan. janet finch-saunders am: Is this the Cylch question? lynne neagle am: Yes, please. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns—[Interruption.] lynne neagle am: We've lost Janet. kirsty williams am: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual—[Inaudible.]— around service-level agreements are off. [Laughter.] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. lynne neagle am: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams? kirsty williams am: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next. janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them? kirsty williams am: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England. kirsty williams am: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me— because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess? kirsty williams am: With regard to AS-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board—and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you. suzy davies am: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments? kirsty williams am: Well, potentially, as I said. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades. lynne neagle am: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis? kirsty williams am: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw? huw morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide? kirsty williams am: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector. suzy davies am: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet. kirsty williams am: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add. huw morris: No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis. huw morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio. helen mary jones am: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore? kirsty williams am: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault. helen mary jones am: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention? kirsty williams am: Yes. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment? kirsty williams am: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration. helen mary jones am: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home— kirsty williams am: It is their home. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need? kirsty williams am: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that. huw morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed? huw morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone? kirsty williams am: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them. helen mary jones am: Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time? kirsty williams am: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: Because it's not safe. kirsty williams am: —because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.' lynne neagle am: Okay, thank you. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point? kirsty williams am: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't— hefin david am: Can we have a clear line on that? kirsty williams am: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation. suzy davies am: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be? kirsty williams am: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely? kirsty williams am: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. kirsty williams am: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion. kirsty williams am: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago. suzy davies am: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked. kirsty williams am: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting

The group acknowledged that they were facing a unique and challenging situation, with the need for ongoing provision and a uniform system. They recognized the need to adapt and iterate as they navigated this rapidly-evolving problem on a scale not seen in a century. Concerns were raised about displacement activities during the holidays, prompting every head teacher to be present at school on Mondays with their staff. In terms of prioritizing the care of vulnerable children, an expanded definition was proposed to guide local authorities in identifying those in need. It was emphasized that the mental well-being of these children would be closely monitored, with weekly meetings among staff to ensure effective follow-up. To gain insight into the thoughts and perspectives of children regarding the COVID-19 outbreak, a survey was launched online. The survey aimed to gauge their willingness to return to school and their views on related issues. However, the group acknowledged the need for further evaluation of the coronavirus Act, suggesting a future-oriented perspective and closer examination of individual cases. Another survey was conducted to explore children's thoughts and demands during the pandemic, focusing on their activities during lockdown, opinions on government and school measures, and their desire for reschooling. Efforts were also made to assess the coronavirus Act and potentially ease statutory requirements to better support childcare and education in the future. It was recognized that some carers had to break social distancing laws to care for children in need, prompting a call for flexibility in these circumstances.

Summarize the discussions on the measures for normal holiday provision for children, the monitoring system for vulnerable children, and the evaluations on the legitimacy of children's rights, protection, and demands.

I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? julie morgan am: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important—for us to hear what your views are and what parents' views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a 'light smack' or a 'loving smack' or a 'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a 'light smack', what is a 'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation—that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says, 'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.' I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children—and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents—predominantly all of them, actually—said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? julie morgan am: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? julie morgan am: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. lynne neagle am: Do you want question 3? janet finch-saunders am: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that 'there is no definitive evidence that "reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? julie morgan am: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? julie morgan am: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries—as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. suzy davies am: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes—and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass—and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described—and we're very relieved to hear that—why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. julie morgan am: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but—. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. julie morgan am: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything— suzy davies am: No. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. Well, can I just finish—? julie morgan am: I know the point you're making. julie morgan am: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. suzy davies am: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but—. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes— suzy davies am: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. julie morgan am: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation— suzy davies am: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. suzy davies am: Basically, we need a question, 'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?' That's the core question. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking— suzy davies am: And it's for the future, not for now. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say, 'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? julie morgan am: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished—any sort of range of physical punishment—and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said: 'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. We recognise that's likely to happen.' So, I think— dawn bowden am: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than—? julie morgan am: Yes, they don't see that changing. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? julie morgan am: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's—. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. dawn bowden am: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? julie morgan am: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. dawn bowden am: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions—well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. julie morgan am: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. karen cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said—that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? julie morgan am: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. julie morgan am: Because, obviously, they’re going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. [Laughter.] But they do do a hard job, which isn’t always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence—many of them have said they don’t see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board—I think she came to you—said: 'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals…I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.' , there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others—I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there’d be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we’ll be giving to parents—we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed—and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it’s important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. So, we’re going to work very closely with social services—obviously, key members of our implementation group—and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. So, I don’t think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day—they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. dawn bowden am: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had—there was a similar kind of concern raised. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we’ve got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? julie morgan am: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. dawn bowden am: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so—? julie morgan am: Yes. dawn bowden am: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. julie morgan am: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps—. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary—CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted— julie morgan am: They sent a letter—that's right. suzy davies am: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? julie morgan am: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way—I think they investigate those already now. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation—so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. suzy davies am: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be— julie morgan am: I can't really be definitive about that. sian gwenllian am: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is  provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective—that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? julie morgan am: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. Give it time' campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. sian gwenllian am: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. Give it time' campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start—yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd—perhaps you are aware of it—Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. julie morgan am: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. hefin david am: Just to take it on the next step from what Siân Gwenllian was asking about—in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? julie morgan am: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it—obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. hefin david am: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? julie morgan am: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. hefin david am: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? julie morgan am: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. hefin david am: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? julie morgan am: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? julie morgan am: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. julie morgan am: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? karen cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. The things that are being raised so far—would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill—are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? karen cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the— julie morgan am: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that— julie morgan am: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. hefin david am: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach—sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? julie morgan am: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example—probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents' awareness. Do you think that's the case? julie morgan am: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. hefin david am: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? julie morgan am: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. karen cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. That figure— lynne neagle am: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to—. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that—will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher, 'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? julie morgan am: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. sian gwenllian am: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be—. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. sian gwenllian am: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. julie morgan am: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you—or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those—I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working— suzy davies am: That's what I wanted to ask you about. julie morgan am: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs' Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. suzy davies am: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint—even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a—we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different—you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? julie morgan am: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense—that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything— suzy davies am: But this is very sensitive, this area. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. So— suzy davies am: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn’t apply, and they’re likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I’m not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I’m literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. julie morgan am: Well, we have done some work on this, haven’t we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? karen cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we’re talking less than 1 per cent of cases— suzy davies am: One per cent of what figure though? karen cornish: —in the last year. suzy davies am: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount— karen cornish: So, it’s about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It’s information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it’s really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure—which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? karen cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. julie morgan am: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. Just before we move on, could I ask, then—? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. hefin david am: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs—those unforeseen costs—that might occur? julie morgan am: I feel that—. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say, 'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.' Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? julie morgan am: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. hefin david am: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? julie morgan am: I don't think it's possible to do that. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting—did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? julie morgan am: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign—that's £2.2 million over six years. And who were the discussions with? karen cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. karen cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. hefin david am: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? karen cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. Are you satisfied that that amount of money—£2.5 million over five years [correction: £2.2 million over six years]—is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around £7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but— karen cornish: I think it was about £4 million— lynne neagle am: £4 million— karen cornish: Something like that. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? karen cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. hefin david am: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? julie morgan am: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture: 'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.' In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life, 'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.' Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination—these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? julie morgan am: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. , I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. vikki howells am: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well—the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? julie morgan am: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87.5 per cent of voters voted 'no' in response to the question, 'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?' On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? julie morgan am: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. janet finch-saunders am: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents—those who are naturally charged with raising their children—against this Bill. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. julie morgan am: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill— janet finch-saunders am: But not from parents. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. lynne neagle am: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. sian gwenllian am: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups—women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? julie morgan am: Yes. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will—I know you want to move on—but we will write to you about anything more specific. lynne neagle am: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? julie morgan am: We will certainly consider it at that point. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. julie morgan am: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? suzy davies am: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Julie Morgan proposed legislation to ban all forms of physical punishment in order to protect children's rights. The bill had an implementation group consisting of representatives from the police, the crime commissioner, the Crown Prosecution Service, and social services, ensuring its effectiveness. Ongoing monitoring and public surveys were conducted to gauge public opinion, and further evaluation would be carried out in the next phase. The aim was to provide alternative methods for parents to raise their children without resorting to physical punishment, emphasizing the importance of understanding the impact of legislation.

Summarize the discussion on the bill to ban physical punishment, including Julie Morgan's perspective and the measures proposed to ensure its effectiveness.

marketing: user interface: I will also be responsible for the functional design phase , the conceptual design phase and the detailed design phase of the user interface design . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: I'll be telling you guys about the user requirement specifications for our new product . , I'll be doing some trend-watching in the conceptual design , and product evaluation for the design phase . project manager: Alright I'm Heather and I've I said I'm your Project Manager , Well you can pretty much read what it is that I'm doing . And tool training is one thing that we're going to be doing today , as well as planning the project , how we're going to , create this product , and , discuss , our aims and objects of this , Which brings us to our next subject , industrial designer: project manager: is , marketing: project manager: as a team we're going to be designing and creating a new kind of remote control . , we want this to be a marketable product that can be trendy , a completely new style , so that , can really appeal to a , to a generation that doesn't want a simple plain kind of , channel-changer . And , it needs to be user-friendly for , maybe , for an example , for people that , can't see the numbers as well , or , perhaps an ergonomic design . So this is a television remote control ? project manager: Yes , it's a television remote control . , the way that we're going to go about this is , we'll have a time where we can , come up with new ideas alone , and , and work on the project and then , after we've brainstormed and , and thought about , we can come together in a meeting and , and discuss what , what , what kind of functional design we want to use . So , making sure that it , it's usable , that as a , and that it's , it's feasible to create , and , to come up with a concept of it want , what we want it to look like . project manager: One thing that , we're going to do is become more acquainted with the , the tools that we have access to for our project . And , as a sort of team-building moment , I , I'd like us to , try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: why that , why that should be your favourite animal . project manager: 'Kay , what's my favourite animal ? industrial designer: project manager: Do come up . Oh , project manager: This is a team-building time industrial designer: are we all doing it individually ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: where , industrial designer: Okay , let's stand up and support you project manager: okay cool , industrial designer: project manager: My favourite animal , which changes all the time , okay , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: right now it is an elk . user interface: An elk ? marketing: project manager: alright , so user interface: A vicious project manager: And it goes like Yeah it's got like big antlers , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Do you have elk where you come from ? project manager: Yes . user interface: I'm quite project manager: This is my user interface: marketing: Oh , very shapely . project manager: That's a sketching of my my elk , and it , it is my favourite animal right now , 'cause it is a large beautiful majestic creature , user interface: project manager: that , that user interface: project manager: In a way it looks kind of awkward , because it's on spindly legs and it user interface: project manager: But it can really overcome harsh terrain , and although it's gorgeous it's also very dangerous , because it has strong antlers , and it can really combat its enemies , even like it it's a it's an herbivore but , it can really defend itself . industrial designer: project manager: Right , I'm gonna take minutes while , you guys express your favourite animals . like all sorts of animals , but for the moment I'm gonna draw a cat , in memory of my poor cat that died recently . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: Not as artistic as Heather's drawing . project manager: industrial designer: But I like cats because they're so independent , and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing . , but that doesn't mean they're completely not sociable , 'cause they enjoy interacting with humans as well , and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and , running around outside as well as being inside , and enjoying their food , and generally just , they just seemed so cool and they just know what they're doing . I think my favourite animal would be a dog , but I'm not really sure how to draw one . I'm tempted to draw a snail 'cause I draw them sometimes and they're really easy to draw . user interface: right it's gonna be a really funny dog , 'cause I'm not sure how to draw a dog . industrial designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs , so I'm sure it'll represent one kind of dog . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: A s I don't ev Oh , oh well . user interface: How do you draw a dog ? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god . , I like dogs because , they're so good to humans , like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeing-eye dogs , and they're just such friendly animals . project manager: marketing: user interface: But they're just so friendly and warm and nice animals , project manager: user interface: that don't look like that . I'm going to draw a butterfly , because I saw a butterfly yesterday , that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving . And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I've ever seen out in the wild , and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland . And then it kinda there was a green , I think it was a green ring , and there was like red going out like this . user interface: marketing: Yeah , it kinda was actually , 'cause it was This part of the body was really dull , and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever , and I'm like , wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March . So that's gonna be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here . project manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that ? marketing: Yes I do . marketing: project manager: So , now that we know how to use the whiteboard , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: the next , thing we need to address is our financial department , to meet our our budget , or not meet our budget but more , like what kind of , selling range we'll be looking at , wanna make this selling price of twenty five Euros . And so we have to , come up with a way to , to create a , a remote control , where we can like the price to create it will be significantly less . , one thing we'd have to think about internationally is in the design of , like different kinds of , V_C_R_s . , industrial designer: project manager: so now that , that is underway , industrial designer: project manager: it is discussion time . So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas , any suggestions that you may have so far , a your personal experiences with remote controls , and , areas you see that , could be improved in your experience with them . Does anyone have any initial thoughts ? marketing: I find that in the dark it's often hard to know what button you're pushing . So what's something we could , do to remedy that ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: Okay . project manager: industrial designer: It's always , where is the remote control ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was . user interface: Do yous not find that , like , there's a lot of , buttons on your remote control , and you don't know what half of them do . There's some remote controls where there's kind of a hidden panel , so all those buttons that you don't really use unless you're programming or something . marketing: So you just have like the number buttons , power button , T_V_ video button . Maybe it could be , instead of like a standard rectangular shape , it could be , something more interesting like marketing: project manager: Any ideas will do that you have at this point . Like , I've seen phones like a project manager: Well if it's a trendy original , aspect we're going for . project manager: you're the designers , you c , you can decide what kind of , direction you wanna go in , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but at this point in the , in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there . I suppose , if we're he heading to have it , like make a huge profit out of this , it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing . Like , a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than , like , a general kind of more acceptable user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: But we don't wanna go towards boring , 'cause that wouldn't sell either . project manager: U_I_D_ the technical functions design will , will be worked on the next thirty minutes . , maybe how this can be achieved , and , we need the user requirements from the manag Marketing Expert <doc-sep>Hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting for our new product that we're gonna be designing . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , or how about I just click ? Okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . tool training , we're going to , I guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . we're gonna make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . We're gonna make a new remote control that's original , trendy and also user-friendly . And how we are going to do it is each of us is going to We're gonna have discuss the functional design first , how is it gonna be used , what's the actual goal here , it has to operate T_V_ , blah blah blah . And then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . And the whiteboard thing , do you guys wanna give that a try even though the ink wasn't working or do you wanna do it on here . industrial designer: I think we should forgo the whiteboard since we can't actually see what we're writing . user interface: project manager: right now so we're all gonna draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: I draw like I'm in grade five . user interface: marketing: It's pretty cool , and they've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that's okay . industrial designer: I love cats because they're independent , they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: I had a roommate who was allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: Yeah , yeah , if you're around them for a long period of time project manager: it's weird . project manager: Why a badger ? user interface: I dunno , they're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: Are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: Well , a little bit like the Yes . project manager: No , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . I don't know even much about giraffes , but I just love the way they look . marketing: You don't really have to , if you like 'em project manager: Yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . user interface: project manager: the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five Euro , and our profit aim is fifty million Euro . We're going to make this an international product marketed in the States , in Europe , in Asia . Expe our experiences with remote controls , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . You wanna start us off ? Anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: Well , we wanna make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: Right . user interface: And everything being Wait , we have what , sound system , T_V_ , D_V_D_ , V_H_S_ , TiVo ? marketing: Right . user interface: if po if we're gonna do it marketing: It needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . Esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , D_V_D_ player , say , usually it doesn't work if it's not one of the user interface: Or if it's not like a Sony , if it's like a I don't know . industrial designer: So we'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . marketing: And what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . 'Kay , and another thing that I think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . If it's just flat and kind of boring th those don't Nobody wants to buy those any more . industrial designer: What about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: What kinda battery would we want to use ? Because battery changing is usually user interface: D Double A_ . project manager: Do some of them use triple A_s though ? marketing: Yeah some use triple A_s . user interface: Some but marketing: So double or triple ? user interface: Yeah , I guess then it's If we need to do triple A_ we can , but most people usually have double A_s around . project manager: Here we can marketing: Yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we'd probably wanna go with a triple A_ . But industrial designer: Can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it's okay , we don't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . the I_D_ , which is who ? Okay , you're going to think about the working design . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . project manager: And you're gonna get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while

The team engaged in a discussion about their favorite animals, taking turns drawing them on the whiteboard. The Project Manager chose an elk, admiring its majestic beauty and ability to navigate challenging terrain. The Industrial Designer selected a cat for its independence, while the User Interface designer opted for a dog due to its trainability and friendly nature. The Marketing team member chose a butterfly as a symbol of the arrival of spring. The Project Manager explained her choice of the elk, highlighting its strength and resilience. The team then proceeded to draw their own favorite animals, with Marketing choosing a fish for its unique water-vascular system and habitat, the Industrial Designer selecting a cat for its independence, and the User Interface designer picking a badger based on literary references. The Project Manager showcased a giraffe, emphasizing its individuality and distinctiveness.

Summarize the team building process and the discussion about favorite animals, including the Project Manager's favorite animal.

Two items , which was , digits and possibly stuff on on , forced alignment , which Jane said that Liz and Andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they didn't , phd f: OK , so there 's digits , alignments , and , I guess the other thing , which I came unprepared for , is , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the Saturday meeting . Yeah , it was grad e: Yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . professor b: With with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a Saturday . postdoc c: Have Have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? I , I don't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: No . phd f: No , actually I I have to I have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . And I don't have and I don't , have a cell phone phd d: A cell phone ? phd f: so I can't be having a conference call while driving . phd f: professor b: So we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , cell phone grad e: Ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: I let , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . , did everyone get the results or shall I go over them again ? that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it shouldn't have been as surprising as I as as I felt it was . And as Morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . professor b: Well , it 's Yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gonna be better on . professor b: The lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: Right . , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . grad g: Probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd f: D do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: There typically don't , no . phd f: Because I I suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: They have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . professor b: And th it 's and because you don't know how people are gonna put them on , you know . So , also , Andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . professor b: and and it was , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , the , the system that we had that was based on H T K , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in Aurora , was so much worse than the than the S R grad e: Everybody . professor b: And the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big . phd f: And we know Di - did I send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: No . grad e: Or if you did , I didn't include them , cuz it was professor b: So phd f: Yeah , I think I did , actually . A a a couple percent or some Well , I don't know it Overall , I I don't remember , but there was there was a significant , loss or win from adaptation with with adaptation . And then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives , win from doing , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . And I tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . professor b: But I think one thing is that , I would presume Hav - Have you ever t Have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual TI - digits test set ? phd f: This exact same recognizer ? No . Cuz my my cuz my sense , phd f: But but , I have , people people at SRI are actually working on digits . phd f: I could and they are using a system that 's , you know , h is actually trained on digits , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , training methods , and so forth , professor b: professor b: Yeah , bu although I 'd be I think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: Cuz our sense from the other from the Aurora , task is that grad e: And try it with TI - digits ? phd f: professor b: cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on TI - digits also with the tandem thing . professor b: One is , yeah , the SRI system is a lot better than the HTK phd f: . professor b: but the other is that , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording TI - digits . I think , you know , one reason for that , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . professor b: And another might be that , I 'd I would presume that in the studio , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they didn't include it , grad e: They didn't include it . grad e: Whereas , I took out the ones that I noticed that were blatant that were correctable . grad e: And then there was another one where Jose couldn't tell whether I couldn't tell whether he was saying zero or six . grad e: You know , so I just e edited out the first , i , word of the utterance . , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as TI - digits . grad e: Right ? So it would probably do even a little better still on the SRI system , but we could give it a try . But remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , on this , on this SRI system , so , I was I thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the , the noises , you know , in the the below and above the , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: phd f: and , I suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , use models that , were trained on wider - band data . And of course we can't do that or grad e: Wha - what 's TI - digits ? I thought t professor b: It 's wide - band , yeah . It 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: It is wide - band . grad e: I couldn't remember whether that was TI - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: See w grad e: So , Morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: Now , eh , does grad e: You might wanna move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that , the system has this , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm , you know , both in , mean and variance normalization and also in the VTL estimation . phd f: Do y ? Is ? So does so th so does does , the TI - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: Yep . phd f: And is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: That I don't know . professor b: Well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . , but I 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , the , VTL estimation . phd f: If you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , factor . But it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . phd f: So grad e: So , although I I sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that I 'll have to dig out . phd f: And there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . So there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , speaker , ID or something that can stand in as a speaker ID . So , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , speakers , in the in the , TI - digits database . And that , phd f: Or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . phd f: That would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: I might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . grad e: The other thing is , isn't TI - digits isolated digits ? phd f: Right . grad e: Or is that another one ? I 'm I looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . phd f: By the way , I think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , not starting with the Switchboard models but by taking the Switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . phd f: Because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . And then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: Channel adapted . But the thing is , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . And for for connected digits over the telephone you don't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: Well , I don't know . You don't don't , postdoc c: This is this that one 's better . phd f: but , you know , I , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , problem , . phd f: Right ? Then , eh because you you don't have any postdoc c: Yeah . phd f: That 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: I I guess I 'm saying I don't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: Other way . postdoc c: If you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . At any rate , I don't know if w postdoc c: I don't know . phd f: It is ? professor b: I don't know if we wanna use that as the postdoc c: Yeah . phd f: I I postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: I I already adjusted this a number of times . phd f: I I grad e: Yeah , I think these mikes are not working as well as I would like . phd f: can't quite seem to Yeah , I think this contraption around your head is not working so well . Anyway , what I was saying is that I I think I probably wouldn't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . The other thing that that , of course , what Barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . professor b: But , I think even even if there was , only a factor of two or something , like I was saying in the email , I think that 's that 's a big factor . professor b: N grad e: Liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . We we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: It 's this thing 's This is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: Yeah , basically your ears are too big . So , it doesn't you know , it 's sit phd f: postdoc c: Well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: OK . grad e: So the To get that , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . grad e: So if it doesn't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . I know what I was go w phd f: What k u By the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: Oh , no , no . phd f: professor b: It 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . professor b: And it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: That factor of two . I I know what I was thinking was that maybe , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . professor b: before I thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u phd f: phd a: Actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . But I 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in Switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: Yeah . Where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? And you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: Yeah . Right ? grad e: Could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: Yeah , do it with one of on grad e: Cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . There 's , You can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . Or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . Or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: But but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: In the H L T paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that " non - overlap " . professor b: But anyway so I think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the P Z phd a: Right . professor b: And then , you know , the thing is if we were getting , what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: Right . professor b: Or , does it use up so much memory we can't decode it ? phd a: It might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the PZM ? professor b: phd a: I don't know how different they are from each other . So we would then use that one , too , grad e: So phd f: Oh , OK . phd a: or ? professor b: You know , it 's so i but I would I 'd pick that one . It 'll be less good for some people than for other , but I I 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: Actually I sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: Right ? grad e: because that could be why the PDA is worse . professor b: But the other is , it 's very , even though there 's I 'm sure the f f the the SRI , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . professor b: So , even discriminating against it , I 'm sure some of it 's getting through . When you listen to it , the PZM and the PDA Yeah , th the PDA has higher sound floor but not by a lot . grad e: Th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a PDA . professor b: But , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . professor b: if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . professor b: You know , it 's They , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . So like I said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: So so , but where is this now ? , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: Yeah . phd f: we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: Well , I think what we wanna do is we want to eh , phd f: So what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . professor b: And then , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s , substituting for HTK . And then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . professor b: And then , also Dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , to , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: So so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: Right . And , es I don't know when Chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gonna professor b: H h He 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and wasn't gonna make it in today . phd f: It 's , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the SRI recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , like the , ICSI system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . So , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , dump out , you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . So , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . So I 've I grad e: So tha that 's exactly what the P - file is for . phd f: Yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: phd f: So for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . phd f: Just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . So the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: Oh . Yes , we have I don't know , did you wanna talk about it , or ? I can give a I was just telling this to Jane and and W we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a , I think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . We tried saying I don't know , I got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . They 're might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? But in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . And we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after Liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: Actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: No gain . phd a: It 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you don't lose anything . , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd f: because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . phd f: so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as Liz said the we f enforce the fact that , the foreground speech has to be continuous . , yeah , it isn't always true , and I think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: Yeah . And , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . And we also There was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , Jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , the word " mixed signal " and someone didn't understand , that you were saying " mixed " I think , Morgan . phd a: And the next turn was a lot of people saying " mixed " , like " he means mixed signal " or " I think it 's mixed " . phd h: Sh phd a: And Chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says " mixed " but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's " mixed " , phd h: Yeah . So there 's I think there 's some issues about u We probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . But , I guess Andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . Like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , occurring in the phd f: Well , the I I think you can do better by , cloning so we have a reject phone . And you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . , in general we actually phd f: And phd a: Right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd a: But then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . phd a: And another one is turns , like people starting with " well I think " and someone else is " well how about " . So the word " well " is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . But then that constraint of sort of , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: Is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: We we didn't phd a: Right now it 's a kluge . We it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that doesn't completely disallows it but discourages it . But , we just didn't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . phd f: And really the reason we can't do it is just that we don't have a we don't have ground truth for these . So , we would need a hand - marked , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , to op to get the best performance . professor b: G given I , I wa I wa I was gonna ask you anyway , how you assessed that things were better . phd a: Oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so And you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . phd a: that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you don't see a lot of words , phd h: Ju professor b: Yeah . phd a: And so the reject is also mapping and pauses So I looked at them all in Waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more I looked at it , I thought " OK , well it 's moving these words leftward and " You know , it wasn't that bad . So But , I don't , you know , have time to l to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use Waves , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . I have to ask you something , is i does it have to be Waves ? Because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , that would help . postdoc c: And then , the other thing is , I believe that I did hand So . One of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then I hand - marked it myself so that we do have , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . And also I went back to the original one that I first transcribed and and did it w , w , utterance by utterance for that particular one . So I think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , I think that you do have hand - marking for that . I used it in Transcriber phd f: U postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , Jane and I were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . You know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wanna be able to know really where the words are . And so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: Yeah , that 's right . Middle of the word , or phd a: and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the Transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: Well , I th I 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . postdoc c: if it 's if it 's phd a: You mean like Yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: Right . Isn't that what what you ? Well , see , Adam would be phd f: Yeah , whatever you use . phd f: we convert it to this format that the , NIST scoring tool unders , CTM . And and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: I think Transcriber , outputs CTM . phd a: So , postdoc c: It seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: Right . postdoc c: since our representation in Transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . phd a: Yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in Transcriber to see all the words , professor b: phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: So so if we e e even just had a a It sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: You mean on on the hand - marked , So we we only r hav I only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: Yeah . phd a: Not randomly phd f: We knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: It had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: Yeah . phd a: That Yeah , actually it wasn't the new new , it was the medium new . grad g: You did you adjust the the utterance times , for each channel ? postdoc c: Yes . And furthermore , I found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times I actually moved an utterance from Adam 's channel to Dan 's or from Dan 's to Adam 's . So there was some speaker identif And the reason was because I transcribed that at a point before , before we had the multiple audio available f so I couldn't switch between the audio . I I transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , I was at a at a terrific disadvantage . And finally I did it using the speakers of my , of you know , off the CPU on my on my machine cuz I didn't have a headphone . postdoc c: So it @ @ , like , Yeah , I , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got I should 've gotten a headphone . But in any case , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and I was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: Is that what you 're referring to ? , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . It 's a Yeah , I 've I 've I 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . grad g: Yeah , I can s phd a: " And then she said , and then he said . grad g: Is that what you 're talking about ? Or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a Adam was ? postdoc c: That was fixed , before i i i I think I I think I understood that pretty grad g: Yeah . Yeah , no , tha that That I think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: Yeah . So , with under , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , I got Adam 's voice confused with Dan 's and vice versa grad g: OK . The other thing that was w interesting to me was that I picked up a lot of , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: Right . But the other thing that I I hadn't thought about this , but I thou I wanted to raise this when you were , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's When I was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , I won't say " usually " but anyway , very often , I picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . S so , like , someone says " an and have you done the so - and - so ? " And then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . postdoc c: i it wouldn't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: No , that 's really interesting . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . I think it 's actually I think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . phd f: And if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . phd a: Well , actu Yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: Exactly . phd f: So then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: But in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and isn't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: H phd a: Right . professor b: I tell you , I say I say " - huh " a lot , phd a: It 's postdoc c: There you go . phd a: Well , but it 's interesting cuz , professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: just from We were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . phd a: And " - huh " is not as frequent as it sort of would be in Switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . And so I was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . And , that 's all , I I 'll stop there , cuz I I think what you say makes a lot of sense . And that would phd a: But it was sort of postdoc c: Well , an And what you say is the is the re , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you don't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: Right . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . We were I guess the other thing we 're we 're I should say is that we 're gonna , try compare this type of overlap analysis to Switchboard , where phd f: And phd a: and CallHome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we don't have the other channel in Switchboard professor b: y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a Eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: Yeah . Well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will Yes , we 're gonna try . phd a: And I was telling Don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: Do as I say , grad g: That 's r phd a: So , we will try . phd a: It 'll probably be a little late , grad e: Well phd a: but I 'm gonna try it . phd a: Well , I 'm no We may be in the same position , and I figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have We have this really nice database format that Andreas and I were working out that It it 's not very fancy . It 's just a ASCII line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: It 's the it 's the spurt format . I was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: . professor b: And that 's , I I was using that for a while when I was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: I would jus professor b: because I because I looked up in some books and I found OK , I wanna find a spurt in which phd a: Ah , right ! It 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . professor b: But how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: Right . phd a: Well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: It 's gonna grad g: you know " Burst " also ? grad e: Burst . grad g: Isn't " burst " is used also ? phd a: so grad e: Spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at ICSI . phd a: Well , well , Chafe had this wor I think it was Chafe , or somebody had a the word " spurt " originally , professor b: But but that just phd h: Here @ @ phd a: and so I But tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: Actually phd a: Was thi it 's Chafe ? postdoc c: Well , see , I know S Sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: So maybe we should talk phd a: Maybe it was Sue ? Y postdoc c: But , in any case , I think it 's a good term , phd a: So we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: Yeah . postdoc c: I know I know Ch - Chafe dealt with phd f: So s grad g: That 's cool . postdoc c: But maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: We postdoc c: and I just don't know . phd f: So what we 're doing , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: Mmm . We 're from each alignment we 're producing , one of these CTM files , postdoc c: Great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . Right ? phd f: And and and of course phd a: It 's just phd f: Right . Third column is the , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . Then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , various other things . phd a: So , Don sort of , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: Right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes , kept those in because we sort of wanna know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: So so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: And then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . So you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . phd f: And then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . And then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . So , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . phd a: I think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: And phd a: because even if you weren't studying overlaps , if you wanna get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gonna know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? You have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . phd a: I thi it 's just an issue we haven't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . phd f: So phd a: i I never thought about it before , grad e: Well phd f: And and we phd a: but grad e: Y yes . phd f: In grad e: s when I came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . Well , this is this is just phd a: Yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . It 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . All we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . So you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . phd f: But if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd f: It 's just it 'll just require more phd a: Just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: What 's interesting is it 's exactly what , i in discussing with , Sue about this , phd a: Yeah . postdoc c: she , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: and also I think as a human , like , I don't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . So I can have two foreground speakers , you know , Morgan an and , Adam and Jane could all be talking , and I could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what I heard . postdoc c: This is This is Bever 's Bever 's effect , phd a: Y Yeah . postdoc c: when where In psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: It 's sort of Yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that Not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . So it 's actually not even possible , I think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . , and the good thing is that we have It 's sort of a beginning of what Don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: Plus , mayb phd h: ? phd a: We - I ju Otherwise we won't get the work done on our deadline . Maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: No , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: Well , what I 'm thinking is phd f: Yeah . postdoc c: Well , my phd f: Well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually don't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: Forces you to do the work . phd f: because the professor b: Oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . postdoc c: I think we can ha phd f: bec b Nah phd a: So grad e: No . phd f: Well That 's another issue , professor b: By th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . The Aurora there 's a special Aurora phd a: phd f: When professor b: There 's a special Aurora session phd a: Oh . professor b: and the Aurora pe people involved in Aurora have till Ma - , early May or something to turn in their paper . phd a: Oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s Actually phd f: Well , then you can just Maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the Aurora session . professor b: It 's it 's not the Aurora , it it 's it 's actually the Aurora task . phd f: But but the people , a a paper that is not on Aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: Maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the Aurora task . If you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the Aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: This is not the Aurora task . So they just do a little grep for phd a: Do , d d Do not do not we are not setting a good example . Well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: This is not a phd f: . phd a: But the good thing is this does grad e: Well , I I don't know . , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the Aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: How well does an Aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: Different way . professor b: you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: professor b: w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: Well , that 's maybe why they don't f know that they have a crummy system . professor b: Oh , you don't like HTK ? phd f: If they phd h: Yeah . phd f: I don't h I don't have any stock in HTK or Entropic or anything . , this it it 's the HTK that is trained on a very limited amount of data . phd f: But so , if you But maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or professor b: Oh , yeah . And they i i phd f: If yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and don't look left and right , then you 're gonna grad e: But they they had professor b: i But grad e: They had something very specific in mind when they designed it . grad e: And so so you can you can argue about maybe that wasn't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: But , one of the reasons I have Chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that hasn't been touched . professor b: But , one of the reasons I have him messing around with that , because I think it 's sort of an open question that we don't know the answer to . People always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that doesn't mean anything , cuz it may not be show , because , you know , it doesn't tell you anything about the good system . You know , that if some peopl If you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . professor b: And in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . If we 're getting three percent error on , u , English , nati native speakers , using the Aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , th you know , the SRI system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: . professor b: You know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . And the Aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on Aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: Actually this this , So , there 's another paper . phd f: And he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it doesn't take weeks to train it . And got some very impressive results , with , you know , discriminative , Gaussian training . , you know , like , error rates go from I don't know , in very noisy environment , like from , I for now I OK , now I have the order of magnit I 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . Was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: H i it got it got better . I think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else Well , there 's a couple things . , one is anything that , anybody has to say about Saturday ? Anything we should do in prep for Saturday ? I guess everybody knows about , u , Mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . But , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you can't absolutely count on it . professor b: I think this is phd f: Are we recording it ? phd a: We won't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u No . professor b: We won we wanna , they 're there 's gonna be , Jeff , Katrin , Mari and two students . professor b: And Brian 's coming , phd f: But you know th professor b: so that 's six . phd a: We don't even have enough channel professor b: Well phd f: Because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: Yeah . phd f: that 's what I 'm professor b: Well phd f: But phd h: Yeah . professor b: I hadn't really thought of it , phd f: Maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some , professor b: Maybe part of it . phd a: That 's their initiation into our professor b: Any phd a: w grad e: Into our our our cult . phd a: Yeah , our Yeah , our phd f: Maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: So can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: OK . phd a: There 's a res Is it changed now , or ? professor b: But I hadn't heard back from Mari after I I u u , brought up the point abou about Andreas 's schedule . professor b: So , I 'll make a postdoc c: I 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . That 'd be , phd a: And w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: I 'd like to see that . phd a: I know about the first meeting , but the other one that you did , the NSA one , which we hadn't done cuz we weren't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: phd f: The , th the other good thing about the alignments is that , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it doesn't work . phd f: You can find , problems with with the transcripts , you know , grad e: Oh . phd a: Tha - There are some cases like where the the wrong speaker , these ca Not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: But phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . phd a: So these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . It also raises the possibility of , using that kind of representation , I don't know , this 'd be something we 'd wanna check , but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , representation , cuz it I think that the , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: Yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: And and but , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . Th - the other thing I had actually was , I I didn't realize this till today , but , this is , Jose 's last day . phd f: Oh ! grad e: You 're not gonna be here tomorrow ? phd h: My my last meeting about meetings . phd d: The last meeting meeting ? phd h: Because , eh , I leave , eh , the next Sunday . phd h: And I I would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at ICSI , phd f: And I 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , I haven't good results , eh , yet but , eh , I I pretend to to continuing out to Spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: - huh . phd h: eh , because I have , eh , another ideas but , eh , I haven't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: Yep . phd h: eh , and e i , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , in my opinion , there isn't professor b: Yeah . Maybe somebody else will come along and will be , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . But , eh , I I will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the Spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . You e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution in in in some few tim , months , eh ? OK . Eh , I I bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , with with you , phd a: Oh . I I hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , I I will be at Spain , to you help , . I guess , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: Digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: . professor b: get our last bit of , Jose 's Jose Jose 's digit phd d: Oops . grad e: Are we gonna do them simultaneously or ? phd h: You eh professor b: I 'm sorry ? phd h: Ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? Or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: Well , we have a time phd f: No , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . grad e: Well , we 've gotta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . grad e: So are we gonna do digits simultaneously phd a: You This is our reward if we do our digi professor b: Well ? Yeah . phd h: I I think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: We 're gonna we 're gonna do digits at the same phd a: Oh . professor b: Alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: We could do digits while other people eat . grad e: It 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: She is serious . phd d: Yeah ! grad e: without a lot of background noise , phd a: And it You have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so I 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . professor b: Actually actually kind of careful cuz I have a strong allergy to nuts , so I have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: That w Oh , yeah , they they might . phd a: This is You know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: Well phd h: Take take several . professor b: Well well , why don't we ? He he 's worried about a ticket . phd a: You laughed at me , too , the first time I sa said professor b: I did , phd a: You really shouldn't , te professor b: and now I love it so much . grad e: OK , everyone ready ? phd a: You have to sort of , Jose , if you haven't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: W wait wait a minute wait a minute . Oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: Hey , you 've done this before . phd d: That 's phd a: Together ? postdoc c: You 've read digits together with us , haven't you , at the same time ? phd a: I 'm not we we Oh , and you haven't done this either . phd a: I the first time is traumatic , professor b: We phd a: but professor b: Y Yeah , bu postdoc c: Oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: Mmm . So , phd f: You mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: No , no . phd f: No ? phd a: We - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: It 's like a like a Greek like a Greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: You know ? professor b: Yes . OK , why don't we go ? , one two three Go ! postdoc c: OK . grad e: Did you read it twice or what ? phd a: He 's try No , he 's trying to get good recognition performance <doc-sep>three two three four seven six five five three one six two four one six seven seven eight nine zero nine four zero zero three zero one five eight one seven three five three two six eight zero three six two four three zero seven four five zero six nine four seven four eight five seven nine six one five O seven eight O two zero nine six zero four zero zero one two Yeah , you don't actually n need to say the name . grad c: OK , this is Barry Chen and I am reading transcript professor f: That 'll probably be bleeped out . professor f: not that there 's anything defamatory about eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: OK . so here 's what I have for I I was just jotting down things I think th w that we should do today . This is what I have for an agenda so far , We should talk a little bit about the plans for the the field trip next week . a number of us are doing a field trip to OGI And mostly First though about the logistics for it . professor f: in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . If we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . So , and , then , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . And then , anything else anybody has that isn't in that list ? grad d: I was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and I should change it ? professor f: I think that means the battery 's O K . professor f: d do you grad d: Oh OK , so th phd a: Yeah , that 's good . I I it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . this is The reason I did it was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . So the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: I live in , the corner of campus . OK , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at , you know , six thirty . Would it be easier for you if you came here and I drove you ? Yeah ? Yeah , yeah , OK . It 'll take it it it won't be bad traffic that time of day and and phd a: I guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . professor f: And then Martin Luther King to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: Yeah . phd a: Oh , I professor f: So that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . So Great , OK so that 'll It 's , it 's still not going to be really easy but well Particularly for for for Barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we don't need to bring anything particularly except for a pad of paper and So , and , you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: OK . professor f: but you know , don't don't bring a footlocker and we 'll be OK So . I 'll I 'll I 'll I 'll give you my phone number , If I 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: Wake you up . I just , it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than I usually do . , I I I figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting until we talk about wh what 's been going on . phd g: So , it means that , well , it is , a digit French database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and I 've added noise to one part , with the actually the Aurora - two noises . professor f: OK , So the HTK base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? Yeah . professor f: And again , I guess the p the plan is , to then given this What 's the plan again ? phd g: The plan with these data ? professor f: With So So Does i Just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y You just described what you 've been doing . phd g: we actually we want to , mmm , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . So we have the , TI - digit task , the Italian task , the French task and the Finnish task . professor f: Yeah ? phd g: So we have numbers with systems neural networks trained on the task data . And then to have systems with neural networks trained on , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . professor f: So - so we had talked I guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language ID corpus ? phd g: Yeah . professor f: Is that a possibility for that ? phd g: Ye - Yeah , but , these corpus , w w there is a CallHome and a CallFriend also , The CallFriend is for language ind identification . This could be a a problem for Why ? Because , the the SpeechDat databases are not telephone speech . That 's really funny isn't it ? cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . phd g: Yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the Well , you don't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: professor f: Oh I see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's the features are computed locally , and so they aren't necessarily telephone bandwidth , or telephone distortions . phd a: Did you happen to find out anything about the OGI multilingual database ? professor f: Yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what I meant . phd g: Yeah , it 's professor f: I said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an OGI language ID , not the not the , the CallFriend is a is a , LDC w thing , right ? phd g: Yea - Yeah , there are also two other databases . One they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . professor f: But I 'm not sure phd g: So professor f: we ' r e e The bandwidth shouldn't be such an issue right ? Because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? So it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , I 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: Yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gonna be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . professor f: i i I I guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages , in there . Well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have English , Spanish and French , with microphone speech . professor f: So that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: Well . phd g: So w f for for Italian , which is close to Spanish , French and , i i , TI - digits we have both , digits training data and also more general training data . professor f: Well , we also have this Broadcast News that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for English . phd g: Yeah , and perhaps , We were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , so big of a issue . u So that th Well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: depen it depen it depends how you mean " using the net " . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: So , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you can't do that . But if we say , " No , you have to have a different feature set for each language , " I think this is ver gonna be very bad . , in principle , conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . professor f: So , we say " OK , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . " OK ? And so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . professor f: Cuz you don't know who 's gonna call , and you know , so it 's it 's it 's , how do you know what language it is ? Somebody picks up the phone . Someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: Well , I chh professor f: And and he he picks up the ph phd g: Yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: Yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . If it 's th in the phone , but professor f: But that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: It could be , phd g: and , well . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? So that 's that 's , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . But the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the , on the phone . We might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . Now , it 's the OGI , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . And they may very well be right , but I I was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . Maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth , that that that the rest doesn't matter . , the other thing is , this notion of training to which I I guess they 're starting to look at up there , training to something more like articulatory features . , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . professor f: but Yeah , so I don't th I know unfortunately I don't I see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , I think , but I don't think we can ignore it . , tr for instance training on English and testing on Italian , or Or we can train or else , can we train a net on , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: Test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: Yeah , so , there 's there 's , This is complex . So , ultimately , as I was saying , I think it doesn't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . professor f: from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , " OK , so you put in the German and the Finnish . professor f: now , what do you do , when somebody has Portuguese ? " you know ? , and , however , you aren't it isn't actually a constraint in this evaluation . So I would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , " Look , we did do this " . phd g: Mmm ? phd a: And so , ideally , what you 'd wanna do is you 'd wanna run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . phd a: And that way you can say , " Well , " you know , " we 're gonna build it for what we think are the most common ones " , professor f: Yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , " here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . " professor f: Yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are , al although there are thousands of languages , from , the point of view of cellular companies , there aren't . professor f: There 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? So , an and they aren't you know , with the exception of Finnish , which I guess it 's pretty different from most most things . I guess Finnish is a is is a little bit like Hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: I don't know anything about Finnish . professor f: Or is I think well , I kn oh , well I know that H , H , I 'm not a linguist , but I guess Hungarian and Finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former Soviet Union are in this sort of same family . professor f: But they 're just these , you know , countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have I guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: . I re - installed , HTK , the free version , so , everybody 's now using three point O , which is the same version that , OGI is using . And , so we 've been talking about this this , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , the Borge cube thing . , but I I 'm Am I professor f: So are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: Resistance is futile . , the the stuff that we 've been working on with TIMIT , trying to get a , a labels file so we can , train up a train up a net on TIMIT and test , the difference between this net trained on TIMIT and a net trained on digits alone . professor f: And again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: Yeah , yeah . professor f: And and the inputs are PLP and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: Well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , we 've talked about it being , PLP , M F C Cs , J - JRASTA , JRASTA - LDA phd g: . professor f: Yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: Yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: Which is PLP , or something ? grad c: I I haven't I haven't decided on on the initial thing . , so so you take PLP and you you , do it , you you , use HTK with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . professor f: And that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , I guess I 'm I 'm not any worse off . It sounds s I I get I think I get the general idea of it , grad c: Yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: So , when you said that you were getting the labels for TIMIT , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b May Oh , I 'm just I 'm just , transforming them from the , the standard TIMIT transcriptions into into a nice long huge P - file to do training . Were the digits , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: the the digits phd a: Or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: Oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by Dan using , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: I was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: - huh . phd a: I I think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . professor f: Well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: And I was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so I was just wondering if the fact that TIMIT you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from TIMIT might be confuse the results that you get . phd a: Right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: you know , I I I guess I 'm sounding cavalier , but , I think the point is you have , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand hand - marked . It would be another interesting scientific question to ask , " Is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? " phd a: And that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , I think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: Yeah . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: What about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: between languages ? phd a: No , between TIMIT and the the digits . Well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in TIMIT to to fifty - six , the ICSI fifty - six . grad c: And then the digits phonemes , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? Is that right ? phd a: Out of that fifty - six ? phd g: Yep . phd g: But , actually , the issue of phoneti phon phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: Yeah . phd g: because you Well , some phonemes are not , in every languages , and So we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , that includes , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: phd e: SAMPA phone ? For English American English , and the the the language who have more phone are the English . But n for example , in Spain , the Spanish have several phone that d doesn't appear in the E English and we thought to complete . But for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . phd b: Other than the language , is there a reason not to use the TIMIT phone set ? Cuz it 's larger ? As opposed to the ICSI phone set ? grad c: Oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: Yeah . I have professor f: I forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was Eric , afterwards who did that . phd a: Yeah , and I think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd a: I th I think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . professor f: Yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . And the ones that are gone , I think are I think there was they also in TIMIT had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: phd b: Well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: I don't know . professor f: i It 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . What there 's Can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: Yeah , w I th I think that 's a good idea professor f: grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: Yeah , yeah . , do you wanna do it ? professor f: OK , so even even though the meeting recorder doesn't doesn't , and since you 're not running a video camera we won't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: Yeah , I have the wireless . OK , well , professor f: he can't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . So the the training for HTK is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? That there 's some training data and some test data . And , yeah , the training for the HTK models is always , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . So , then I think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . grad c: Yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: And grad c: Yeah . phd a: What about mel cepstrum ? Or is that grad c: Oh , phd a: you don't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: Yeah databases . professor f: Well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: Yeah . at least at least conceptually , you know , it doesn't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: Yeah . phd a: It 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do MFCC with the neural net phd e: Without the phd a: and everything else the same . D Because I think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , mel cepstra , actually . phd a: Is that Was that distributed with Aurora , or ? grad c: One L or two L 's ? phd a: Where did that ? professor f: The newer one . And , oh yeah , and professor f: Is it French French or Belgian French ? There 's a phd g: It 's , French French . Yeah , Herve always insists that Belgian is i is absolutely pure French , has nothing to do with but he says those those those Parisians talk funny . grad c: right ? Spanish Oh , Spanish stories ? phd e: Albayzin is the name . phd a: What about TI - digits ? grad c: TI - digits all these Aurora f d data p data is from is derived from TI - digits . grad c: basically , they they corrupted it with , different kinds of noises at different SNR levels . professor f: y And I think Stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the French also ? phd g: Yeah , we cou we could use grad c: OK . phd b: Did the Aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: They they corrupted it , themselves , phd b: OK . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? Or phd g: Yeah . professor f: I 'm just curious , Carmen , I couldn't tell if you were joking or i Is it is it Mexican Spanish , phd e: No no no no . phd g: Yeah , the No , the French is f yeah , from , Paris , grad c: Oh , from Paris , OK . And , with within the training corporas , we 're , thinking about , training with noise . So , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , Aurora is in incorporating in their , in their training corpus . , I don't think we we 're given the , the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: I think what they were saying was that , for this next test there 's gonna be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . professor f: So , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: So , I guess we can't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . professor f: exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: the testing corporas are , just , the same ones as Aurora testing . grad c: we ' r we 're gonna get German , right ? Ge - At the final test will have German . professor f: Well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be German and Danish , phd g: yeah . professor f: Oh , there 's a there 's Spanish testing in the Aurora ? phd g: not yet , but , yeah , e phd e: Yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: and , well , according to Hynek it will be we will have this at the end of November , or . phd g: Yeah professor f: So that 's , three hundred and forty - three , different systems that are going to be developed . grad d: What a what about noise conditions ? professor f: What ? grad d: w Don't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: Are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: No , I just don't understand . grad c: Well , th , when when I put these testings on there , I 'm assumi professor f: I 'm just kidding . And they 're all they 're all gonna be test tested , with one training of the HTK system . grad d: And do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: no , no , phd e: Also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gonna be , training on the noise files that we do have . professor f: So , Yeah , so I guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? , it 's not totally crazy t , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute PLP , we have MSG , we have JRA you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , won't take a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . professor f: But how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these trainings ? grad c: That 's a good question . , cuz , so , for instance , I think the major advantage of MSG grad c: Oh ! professor f: Yeah , grad c: Och ! professor f: good point . A major advantage of MSG , I see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with PLP . grad c: Now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: Well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . professor f: Yeah , so , you don't wanna , Let 's see , seven choose two would be , twenty - one different combinations . phd b: It 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: Probably phd b: right ? It 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: What ? phd b: right ? grad c: No . Yeah , there 's grad c: That would be professor f: yeah , so PLP and MSG I think we definitely wanna try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd a: When you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . Do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: Well , so , so i it doesn't increase the number of trainings . phd a: No , no , I 'm I 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . Do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: I don't think so . phd b: There 's a computation limit , though , isn't there ? professor f: Yeah , it 's just more compu Excuse me ? phd b: Isn't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for Aurora task ? professor f: Oh yeah , we haven't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: No . What it is is that there 's there 's , it 's just penalty , you know ? That that if you 're using , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gonna have lots of memory . So it 's just that , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . But , yeah , I was just realizing that , actually , it doesn't explode out , It 's not really two to the seventh . But it 's but but i i it doesn't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . Right ? So , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , you can combine their outputs and do the KL transformation and so forth grad c: phd a: But wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: Well , you gotta do the KL transformation , phd g: Eight y professor f: but phd a: Is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: Necessary to put in . Right ? phd g: So , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . professor f: Yeah , so , I guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . professor f: Because the putting them in combination , I think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . But there is the testing also , which implies training , the HTK models phd e: The the model the HTK model . professor f: How long does it take for an , HTK training ? phd g: It 's around six hours , I think . professor f: No , I 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: Ravioli . phd g: Yeah , I I think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the TI - digits test data is about , how many hours ? , th , thirty hours of speech , I think , professor f: It 's a few hours . professor f: so , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . professor f: Right ? So so w we there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . So , I think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot , are we still using P - make ? Is that ? grad c: Oh , I don't know how w how we would P - make this , though . professor f: Well , you have a , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the , a all these combinations , grad c: Yeah . It 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of HTK . How long is it for training of of , the neural net ? grad c: The neural net ? . phd b: How big is the net ? phd e: For Albayzin I trained on neural network , was , one day also . professor f: And I think there there there 's I think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: Is it faster to do it on the SPERT , or ? professor f: don't know . grad c: It 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: Used to be . Or either Adam or or Dan did some testing and they found that the SPERT board 's still still faster . grad c: And the benefits is that , you know , you run out of SPERT and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: You could set up , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on SPERT different SPERT boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . So , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . professor f: So this is Yeah , I kind of like this because what it No grad c: OK . professor f: no , what I like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . You know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . And , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , " Well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort " that 's phd e: Yeah . But if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . So what I like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . And , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a Am I am I interpreting this correctly ? Is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: Mmm . professor f: So so then I think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , you know you know , talk to talk to , Chuck , talk to , Adam , sort out about , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . , and , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and , in in kind o some kind of structured way . , and , you know , when we go to , OGI next week , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . And , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: Mmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we won't be contributing that much . phd b: How big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: for the for nets trained on digits , we have been using , four hundred order hidden units . And , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . , w we 're gonna professor f: Oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y You mean more classes . professor f: Carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? We you haven't talked too much , and phd e: D I begin to work with the Italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the HTK program and the @ @ . And I trained eh , with the Spanish two neural network with PLP and with LogRASTA PLP . professor f: Well , JRASTA has the potential to do better , but it doesn't always . It 's it 's , instead of doing RASTA with a log , you 're doing RASTA with a log - like function that varies depending on a J parameter , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . So , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . It 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: and I think to to to recognize the Italian digits with the neural netw Spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the Spanish digits , the database of Spanish digits . Was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that I have , the Albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . professor f: I 'm sorry , phd e: I 'm sorry , professor f: I have a p I had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: Oh , also that professor f: So , OK , so let 's start over . professor f: So , TI TIMI TIMIT 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the Spanish ? phd e: The Spanish labels ? That was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . Yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , Feacalc , but no , l LabeCut , l LabeCut , but don't doesn't , eh , include the HTK format to convert . I ask e even I ask to Dan Ellis what I can do that , and h they he say me that h he does doesn't any any s any form to to do that . And at the end , I think that with LabeCut I can transfer to ASCII format , and HTK is an ASCII format . And I m do another , one program to put ASCII format of HTK to ase ay ac ASCII format to Exceed professor f: phd e: Actually that was complicated , professor f: So you phd e: but well , I know how we can did that do that . So it 's just usual kind of sometimes say housekeeping , right ? To get these get these things sorted out . professor f: So it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . And then , if if you work on getting the , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . And , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at OGI , so I think that i if What 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . , the first thing was , we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , not not in stages , but more along the the time axis . grad c: je - je - je - je - je check out the results and and go that way . No , I 'm just saying , I 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: - huh . professor f: right ? And so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: Yeah . professor f: And , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , concurrently on different machines , different SPERTs , and so forth , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , " OK , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , " you 'll probably find you can't do it all . professor f: OK , so then at that point , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . professor f: Which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and And , I still think we could do a lot of them . But , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . And I know that , Stephane 's working from an NT machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . We 're over the next year or two , we 're gonna be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: So , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . professor f: So , you you don't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do don't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . Now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what I just said . But the idea is that , suppose you 're working with , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . professor f: Then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . And then that way you you won't have the the network you won't be clogging the network for yourself and others . So , it 's gonna take us It may be too late for this , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , we 're , It 's gonna take us a couple weeks at least to get the , the amount of disk we 're gonna be getting . We 're actually gonna get , I think four more , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , put them on another another disk rack . We ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , primarily between this project and the Meetings Meetings Project . But , we 've put another I guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . But , are you saying So I don't know where you 're Stephane , where you 're doing your computations . If i so , you 're on an NT machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: Yeah , it , Well , to It 's Nutmeg and Mustard , I think , professor f: Do you know these yet ? phd g: I don't know what kind . , are these are these , computational servers , or something ? I 'm I 've been kind of out of it . professor f: Unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . Yeah , I 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said Nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: Mustard . Yeah , so basically , Chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and I 'll be the one who says , " OK , spend the money . Which , n these days , if you 're talking about scratch space , it doesn't increase the , need for backup , and , I think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . Right now it 's phd a: What you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a DF minus K , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd a: and if there is then , professor f: But wasn't it , I think Dave was saying that he preferred that people didn't put stuff in slash - scratch . It 's more putting in d s XA or XB or , phd a: Well , there 's different there , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: Right . So there 's the slash - X - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . And if it 's called " slash - scratch " , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . And so that 's the kind of thing where , like if , OK , if you don't have an NT , but you have a a a Unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , it 'll be called " slash - X - something " , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be " slash - D - something " if it is backed up . And if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called " slash - scratch " . It 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . So , you don't wanna put anything in slash - scratch that you wanna keep around for a long period of time . But if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it doesn't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . So tha that 's why I was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , Mustard and and Nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . Yeah , and we do have , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gonna run over them lots of times so you don't have to go to the network . professor f: Right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where Chuck is putting it all on the on the , file server , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y it is backed up on the other disk . phd a: Yeah , so , one of the things that I need to I 've started looking at , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: Sure . Dan David , put a new , drive onto Abbott , that 's an X disk , which means it 's not backed up . So , I 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a CD - ROM or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . We haven't deleted them off of the slash - DC disk that they 're on right now in Abbott , but we I would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , this new disk also . So , anything that that you don't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gonna need , you probably wanna have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something goes wrong . So far I 've I 've copied a couple of things , but I haven't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . So I I guess I 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . professor f: yeah , I I just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: . So that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , normalization scheme as OGI is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: Yeah , I think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it it 's if we do anything else , we 're gonna end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . So , I guess , yeah , th the other topic I maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . i i i it seems to me that we wanna do is flush out what you put on the board here . Like a s like a slide ? professor f: so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: OK . And , also , if you have sorted out , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gonna do . Anything else that I a a Actually started out this this field trip started off with with , Stephane talking to Hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? , I 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . And and the other the the last topic I had here was , d Dave 's fine offer to to , do something on this . he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . So the question is , " Where where could we , most use Dave 's help ? " phd g: yeah , I was thinking perhaps if , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well it 's , running programs professor f: Yeah . phd g: and , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , speech , noise detection or , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and Which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: I think that would be a I think that 's a big big deal . Because the you know , the thing that Sunil was talking about , with the labels , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? The That that really throws things off . You know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , speech detector , the the , What was it ? What was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: He was running through these models very quickly . professor f: The only problem , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem I have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . But I think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , an an additional , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . But if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of strapped for time We have we we 've , you know , only , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , to to get a lot done . If we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be The very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not , yeah , so that that 's the question . And we don't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd e: Yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between TIMIT and Spanish or something like that . professor f: So what we were just saying is that that , I was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and wasn't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . And so , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . See the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is I really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , or , you know , a so - so job . You can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . But I remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as I recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . So , And th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , even though we 're not we don't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , clearly there 's some limitation to it . So if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . , one I think one of the a lot of people would say , and I think Dan would also , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . Reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . So wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , from from , from TIMIT or something . What what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: Yeah , it would consist in , well , creating the the superset , and , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . professor f: creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: Well , creating the mappings , actually . phd g: Yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: Maybe for the other language because TIMIT have more phone . grad c: There 's , Carmen was talking about this SAMPA thing , and it 's , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , a machine readable IPA , sort of thing , right ? And , they they have a web site that Stephane was showing us that has , has all the English phonemes and their SAMPA correspondent , phoneme , professor f: Yeah . grad c: and then , they have Spanish , they have German , they have all all sorts of languages , mapping mapping to the SAMPA phonemes , which phd e: Yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for Albayzin is n the transcription are of SAMPA the same , how you say , symbol that SAMPA appear . phd b: I was gonna say , does that mean IPA is not really international ? grad c: No , it 's it 's saying phd a: It uses special diacritics and stuff , which you can't do with ASCII characters . professor f: What , Has OGI done anything about this issue ? Do they have Do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: I don't think so . Well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining , phoneme clusters , apparently . phd a: So they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: I think they 've not done it , doing , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , English nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in English nets with , kind of seventeen , I think it was seventeen , broad classes . But Hynek didn't add didn't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . phd g: But professor f: Is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . Right ? , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , our own . Right ? So , if i if if they s , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . And now we 're saying , " Well , how do we handle cross - language ? " And one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: I think that there 's something wrong professor f: OK . What w phd g: or Well , because Well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's OK for , classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , class . Although , you are not using this for the phd g: So , I 'm professor f: You 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: Yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: Yeah . phd a: So you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: Yeah . phd b: Fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? I think , Larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . grad c: So so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: But that 's what I thought they were gonna grad c: right ? professor f: Did they not do that , or ? phd g: I don't think so . Well , professor f: So phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: They 're talking about it , phd g: I d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w Yeah . professor f: Instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take So suppose y you don't really mark arti To really mark articulatory features , you really wanna look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gonna do that . So , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic , articulatory , features . You won't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: So the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: Articulatory features . phd a: But that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: Right . And , I don't know if our software this if the qu versions of the Quicknet that we 're using allows for that . Do you know ? grad c: Allows for ? professor f: Multiple targets being one ? grad c: Oh , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: is that we could we could , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . Now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , combinations . So , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . We could I don't know , if you had the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . phd a: So , if your net is gonna be outputting , a vector of basically of well , it 's gonna have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , I don't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . Eh , eh , what made me think about this is , I was talking with Hynek and he said that there was a guy at A T - andT who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . And because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: This was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . phd a: Well , Hynek said that that , I guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . phd a: So I was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . So that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . professor f: Although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: Yeah . phd a: And then you also don't know what error they 've got on the HTK side . phd b: The soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: To sum up to one . phd b: So you can't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . Is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig No , it 's actually sigmoid - X phd g: or ? Yeah . grad c: for the phd g: So if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's OK ? grad c: You , professor f: Did we just run out of disk , grad c: I think I think apparently , the , professor f: or ? phd b: Why don't you just choose linear ? Right ? grad c: What 's that ? phd b: Linear outputs ? grad c: Linear outputs ? phd b: Isn't that what you 'll want ? grad c: . Right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - X phd b: Oh , you Yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . professor f: So , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? About to be off the air .<doc-sep>We we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too not too hot , not too cold , they were you know , they were , far enough away that you got more background noise , and and so forth phd a: - huh . professor c: but they weren't so close that they got quite the you know , the really good No , th phd a: OK . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes , phd a: - huh . professor c: but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle . professor c: There 's , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we there seemed to be very strong opinions for , getting rid of lapels . phd a: The mike number is professor c: So , phd f: your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there . phd f: It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your phd a: OK . professor c: And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . phd f: So what we usually do is , we typically will have our meetings professor c: Yeah . One thing phd f: Sunil 's here for the summer ? professor c: Sunil 's here for the summer , right . , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe , and then just , I guess , progress reports individually , and then , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . phd f: I could say a few words about , some of the , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know . professor c: Yeah ? phd f: We So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , to use as sort of a compute farm . And , we ordered , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , in addition , we 're running So the plan for using these is , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to , run things using P - make and Customs . The simplest thing And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . , professor c: How about an email that points to the FAQ , phd f: there 's a c professor c: you know what I 'm saying ? phd f: Yeah , yeah . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can say " run dash command L S " , and , it 'll actually export that LS command to some machine in the institute , and , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and And that 's a simple way to get started using using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like " run command " , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're . professor c: So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines , phd f: So . Yeah , you know , I I sort of got started using the recognizer just recently and , I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , " , are you running two trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . grad g: I have I have a question about the , parallelization ? phd f: grad g: So , let 's say I have like , a thousand little little jobs to do ? phd f: grad g: how do I do it with " run command " ? do phd f: You could write a script , which called run command on each sub - job grad g: - huh . A thousand times ? phd f: right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that grad g: OK . , so , you know , you should you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , just because then it would keep other people grad g: Oh , too much file transfer and stuff . phd f: Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . phd f: so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use " run command " , to only have ten of those going at a time . , professor c: I remember I I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out . professor c: So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines phd f: professor c: and and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine . phd f: but , you can also If you have that level of parallelization , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use , P - make grad g: Just do P - make . phd f: and and you basically write a Make file that , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things , grad g: s phd f: and when you run P - make , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and and then a number , grad g: If you " Run command " , that I mentioned before , is doesn't know about other things that you might be running . phd f: So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once , phd d: Right . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run phd d: professor c: So " run command " doesn't use P - make , or ? phd f: It uses " export " underlyingly . But , if you i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running . professor c: So why would one use that rather than P - make ? phd f: Well , if you have , Like , for example , if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , an HTK training job that you know is gonna take , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , the machine you typically use , you can say " run command " and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and and run your job there . professor c: Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it phd f: Yes . And if you specify that , in in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from . phd f: But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and and they were at lunch , professor c: phd f: they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted your job will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . So which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus the attribute , you know , " no evict " , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . professor c: what what about I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you if something required if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ? phd f: professor c: and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ? phd f: Yeah , I I 'm not sure how that works . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev dev console or something . phd f: ? professor c: you sort of you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , " screw this " , phd f: Yeah , yeah . phd a: I need a little orientation about this environment and scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions phd f: OK . Yeah , and and also , Stephane 's a a really good resource for that if you can't find me . Well , why don't we , Sunil since you 're haven't haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully . phd a: yeah , after the submission the what I 've been working on mainly was to take take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in in ours . And then I found that , if if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . I just plug in I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . phd a: What I did was I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , narrow narrow band LDA filter that we submitted , I got new filters . And , so then after after that I I added , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that there there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a a mean and variance update time constant and which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But , I didn't I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . And , the other other thing what I tried was , I just , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the the w speech and nonspeech . And , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh . professor c: can you back up a second , I I I missed something , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , things got better again ? phd a: Yeah . phd a: With the different time constant I found that , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization , professor c: Oh . phd a: But I didn't play it with play play quite a bit to make it better than . The the other thing what I tried was the adding the , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the the second the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , use professor c: . phd f: So people won't even have to worry about , doing speech - nonspeech then . professor c: G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway , phd f: I see . professor c: and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what what are the best features that you should use . professor c: But but it might be In some ways it might be better t to rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with . phd f: So , are people supposed to assume that there is Are are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ? phd a: phd f: Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ? phd a: No . Like y you will you will You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you . professor c: So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better , phd a: Yeah . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . phd a: Yeah , so professor c: But but phd a: so that is when , the the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . phd a: Ye Yeah , and I I came back and I started working on , some other speech enhancement algorithm . , so I from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . phd a: so just to just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I I 've been working on this , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . phd a: So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . phd a: and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . professor c: S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So so now you 're you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here phd a: Yeah . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ? phd d: professor c: where you were also combining something both of you I guess were both combining something from the , French Telecom system with the u phd d: Right . professor c: I I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or ? phd d: phd d: we The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are , with noise removed . So then , one distinction is that , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to phd a: no there is a slight different . , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization professor c: Yeah . professor c: What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ? phd a: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features , phd a: Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like There may be a slight difference in the way phd d: right ? or ? phd a: because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . But , I th phd d: Yeah , well I think we should , have a table with all the result because I don't know I , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But , phd a: OK . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied , proposal - one system after this without well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the the LDA filters , phd a: - huh . phd d: and phd b: And the filter phd d: Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization ? phd a: Only LDA . So we just tried directly to to just , keep the system as it was and , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves , signif significantly . , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization . phd d: Because if we keep the value that was submitted , it doesn't help at all . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly phd a: Yeah . professor c: So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something phd d: Right . professor c: and see where i where the where they were different and what we can learn from it . phd d: because we change it the system to have phd a: Oh yeah , the the new LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off . phd d: And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , always better than it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , mainly because of , when you p you plug the , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and , phd a: Yeah . phd a: Because the your improvement on HM and will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . phd a: the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information . But they d the everything is like , but there that 's how they reduce why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some something on . professor c: But are they changing the weighting ? phd a: no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting . professor c: I guess I I haven't been part of the discussion , so , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual , phd a: Usual . professor c: Because , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ particular person 's car is like , or phd a: Mmm . phd a: Yeah , but actually the well well the well - matched , the the well - matched condition is not like , the one in TI - digits where , you have all the training , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . The well - matched has also some some mismatch in that which is other than the professor c: The well wa matched has mismatch ? phd a: has has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched phd f: Perfect to match . So remind me of what well - matched meant ? phd a: The the well - matched is like professor c: You 've told me many times . phd a: the the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing . phd a: It 's it 's phd d: Because it phd a: OK , it 's professor c: Yeah . So , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much You know , so it 's so it 's sort of saying if you phd f: It 's it 's not guaranteed though . phd a: the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually . professor c: Again , if you have enough if you have enough phd a: No yeah , yeah . professor c: So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , you you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and and record noise conditions , or something , and then I don't think that 's very realistic , I th phd a: professor c: I I you know , so I I I you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so . We are playing we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the , mel energies which I already tested but without the frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction . phd f: Is it is spectral subtraction typically done on the after the mel , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ? phd d: phd f: Does it matter , or ? phd d: I d I don't know . So - some of the proposal , we 're doing this on the bin on the FFT bins , phd f: . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's which one might be better or I phd f: . phd a: I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins . it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . phd d: Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both . phd a: The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement . phd a: And So , there 's something that is good about doing it , to cleaning it up once more . phd a: so we can phd d: So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing phd a: Yeah . That 's what professor c: Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing . professor c: maybe one or one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first . So , professor c: Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around , phd d: Yeah , professor c: you know ? phd a: So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace , phd d: phd a: just to see all some some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not . professor c: How is it I I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're that you 're adding together the two signals , how is how is that differ from signal subspace ? phd a: The signal subspace ? The professor c: Yeah . phd a: So , the the different the c the the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a phd a: Wiener filtering . Yeah , in general , you don't that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . , that was something that , Herve and I were talking about with , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy . phd a: So that that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage , professor c: Yeah . phd d: What was your point about about colored noise there ? phd a: Oh , the colored noise phd d: Yeah . phd a: the colored noise the the v the signal subspace approach has , it it actually depends on inverting the matrices . phd a: it has a it 's It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite . phd a: So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise professor c: Yeah . phd a: and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again . if you sort of you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid phd a: Yeah . professor c: and then you then then add a little bit l noise noise addition , that sort of what J JRASTA does , in a way . professor c: If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little adding a little noise , phd a: Huh ? - huh . And maybe we well we find some people so that , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , it 's it 's a nonlinear eh , transformation in the cepstral domain . phd d: And , there is a way to approximate this using , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect . professor c: Who is doing this ? phd d: w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada , phd b: Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend . professor c: Who 's the guy in Grenada ? phd d: phd b: Jose Carlos Segura . professor c: Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of , noise removal , with with these other things we have , phd d: But for sure there 's required to that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things professor c: Oh yeah . , professor c: Well one of the seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here , phd d: I professor c: cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too or I guess not next week , phd d: - huh . professor c: week and a half , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to to pick two pol two plausible things , and and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better , phd d: professor c: and then , you know , but , w , he 'll have some ideas on that too . phd a: The other thing is to , Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization to make it work @ @ . professor c: So they 're making there Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive artificially added noise or something ? phd a: Yeah , yeah . professor c: Sort of a sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ? phd a: Yeah . professor c: And then they 're they 're , generating HTK scripts to phd a: Yeah . There are they have there is no I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State , professor c: Mis - Mississippi State maybe , phd a: yeah . professor c: well we 've Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . professor c: and some of the focus conditions were noisy and and phd a: It had additive n professor c: But we but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi , multi - stream and and so forth . professor c: and and , that we have , for the , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just noisy and reverberant actually . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with with , connected digits . professor c: but , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard , Switchboard recognizer , phd a: Yeah . You just take the Switchboard trained ? Yeah , professor c: That 's that 's what we 're doing , phd a: yeah . professor c: but we 're hop , actually , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , some of the large vocabulary data . , I guess no one had done yet done test one on the distant mike using , the SRI recognizer and , phd f: I don't not that I know of . professor c: You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the the CPU or something trying to trying to do it , phd f: That 's right professor c: but , yeah . But , you 're right that that that 's a real good point , that , we we don't know yeah , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the in the evaluation . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end , phd b: I don't have good result , with the inc including the new parameters , professor c: or ? phd b: I don't have good result . phd a: With what what other new p new parameter ? grad g: You 're talking about your voicing ? professor c: Yeah . professor c: seeing as how Sunil , phd b: I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter , professor c: yeah . phd b: that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero phd a: phd b: and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for of the spec si , spectrum of the signal and and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank . phd b: and you have the on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank . phd b: You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal . phd b: because , suppose we we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n , noise . phd b: To to To The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound . And I did experiment I need to change to obtain this new feature I need to change the size the window size size . phd b: And I do I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence silence phd a: Unvoiced . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly . phd a: is it with TI - digits , or with ? phd b: And No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically . phd b: And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse . professor c: we 've had these discussions before , and and one of the things that struck me was that , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we whenever you condense things , in an irreversible way , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for particular , phonetic units . And so the question is , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking " oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice voiced property whatever . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , " well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? " So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network , phd b: To know professor c: and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or or whatever phd f: Wi - with what targets ? phd a: Voiced , unvoiced is like professor c: no . professor c: No the just the same same way we 're using , the same way that we 're using the filter bank . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or , adding probabilities , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here . professor c: Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination . professor c: But I I I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and and , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . professor c: but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it . professor c: So , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So , phd a: Yeah , d professor c: part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not . professor c: so anyway , it 's just a thought , that that if we if we had that maybe it 's just a baseline , which would show us " well , what are we really getting out of the filters " , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , phd d: professor c: you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . phd a: What one one p one thing is like what before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the th what we did was like , I I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the on that . phd a: That is just a binary feature and that seems to be improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . phd d: Wait I I 'm sorry ? phd a: Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline . Well , in in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech , phd d: Yeah . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech , phd a: OK . professor c: And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints . phd a: There was a paper in ICASSP this ICASSP over the extracting some higher - order , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . phd a: It wa it was taking the , It was about finding the higher - order moments of Yeah . professor c: Yeah , phd a: And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or professor c: cumulants , yeah . professor c: Yeah , but again You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does . professor c: So n neural network , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you phd a: trying to f to Moments , yeah . I can I can just , share a little bit Sunil hasn't hasn't heard about , what I 've been doing . grad g: so , I told you I was I was I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , trying to propose , your next your your following years of of your PHD work , trying trying to find a project to to define and and to work on . So , I 've been , looking into , doing something about r , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , the idea is you have all these these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , frication , that kinda stuff , building robust , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . , and , these these primary detectors , will be , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , doing things , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , graphical models to to detect these these , acoustic events . And , so I I been I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , exactly what what kind of acoustic events I need , what , what acoustic events will provide a a good enough coverage to in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , once I decide a set of acoustic events , h how do I how do I get labels ? Training data for for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the the models themselves , the the primary detectors . , so , I kinda see like , after after building the primary detectors I see , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into into a , Gaussian mixtures back - end , and doing recognition . grad g: professor c: By by the way , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at . professor c: you know , if you if a multi - band approach was helpful as as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced , grad g: And so , this this past week , I 've been , looking a little bit into , TRAPS , and doing doing TRAPS on on these e events too , just , seeing seeing if that 's possible . , and , other than that , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years . professor c: or , no ? grad g: well , s s som something like that . professor c: Suni - i d ' you v did did you find a place ? phd a: no professor c: Is that out of the way ? phd a: not yet . , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . And then , you 're coming back phd a: i , I I p I plan to be here on thirty - first . professor c: Thirty - first , phd a: Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to professor c: OK . professor c: They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for for for a while phd a: Yeah . grad e: You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . professor c: Do y wanna say anything about You you actually been , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were you were mentioning . Is that that something worth talking about , or ? grad e: it 's Well , it I don't think it directly relates . , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to , look at , how people respond to formant changes , I think . So he he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic , spectrum . And he wanted to look at , how the energy is moving over time in that spectrum and compare that to the to the listener tests . And to he he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . I found the roots of the , LPC polynomial to , track the peaks in the , PLP LPC spectra . phd a: well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the the Is that the aligned s professor c: It 's a r root LPC , of some sort . phd a: Oh , it 's like line sp professor c: Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they , phd a: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was was taking the LPC polynomial and and , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not . professor c: Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny values in in real speech , phd f: So you just You typically just get a few roots ? professor c: but . phd f: something like that ? professor c: And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but . So , if @ @ Every root that 's Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root is gonna be a c complex pair , phd f: So for each And if you look at that on the unit circle , one of these one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just So , f for the I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs professor c: Yeah . for real speech in real then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well . grad e: Mmm , professor c: And and what in in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK phd d: I professor c: because it was just a question of quantization . , we were just you know , storing It was We were doing , stored speech , quantization . professor c: But but , in your case , you know phd d: Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy grad e: But there 's some of that , yes . phd f: If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? h how is the speech created ? grad e: It was created from a synthesizer , and phd f: Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ? professor c: I bet it it might have may have been grad e: I d d this professor c: but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ? grad e: In in fact w we we could get , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , w one thing that the , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , is that I I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . grad e: but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . professor c: Yeah , so the actual So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . professor c: You 're getting something that is is , af strongly affected by the PLP model . So it 's a little It 's It 's It 's sort of sort of a different thing . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban , formant centers are phd f: Yeah . professor c: that 's Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as as what you grad e: professor c: But but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , band center and band width , and , But . So , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess , phd a: Yeah

The team had a discussion about the importance of the multi-lingual aspect of the model. While Grad G believed it was not very important, the professor disagreed, emphasizing the need for a robust model that could be applied to many languages. The team ultimately concluded that they only needed sufficient breadth in language coverage, focusing on the most commonly used languages in cellular phones. They found that the similarity between different languages would allow them to cover more ground with fewer languages. However, the recognizer faced challenges when dealing with segments labeled as 'overlap', where multiple speakers were talking at the same time. It performed well on segments labeled as 'non-overlap', where only one person was talking. PhD F admitted that he had mistakenly run his tasks on all available compute instances, leading to a shortage of computational resources. While new computers were on the way, it was important for everyone to learn to share resources until then. He also provided guidance on how to properly queue tasks.

What were the opinions of the Professor, Grad G, PhD A, and PhD F on cross-lingual data, the diversity of languages needed, overlaps, and computational resources?

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 13th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Chairs chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. We have amazing speakersand an amazing Speaker, but that's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber, and they do pick up everything. For those joining us via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you're not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel, and if you want to speak in French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today, so we'll continue to the presentation of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. They provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year, and the European Union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them, the neonicotinoids. This petition calls on the Government of Canada, for the sake of bees and our food security, to follow Europe's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in Canada. It raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations, which is what makes this first petition particularly timely. I am tabling a petition related to Bill C-7, the government's euthanasia bill, which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago. When some people are living in deplorable conditions, we cannot truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die. Especially in light of that new information, I commend this petition for the consideration of members of the House. The second petition is in support of Bill S-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking, put forward in the Senate. The bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor's consent. It relates to what I think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months. In this pandemic, there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more, and who are of course deemed essential services. The petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $20 an hour, in light of their service and the risks they're taking for all of us. She said that when we present petitions, we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table. the chair: I want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions, they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front, as opposed to going on for a long time. Now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes, and each statement will be for one minute. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): Thank you, Mr. Today I am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville who are part of the 52nd Mississauga Scouts. For over a decade, I've had the great opportunity to join the Scouts every year during the month of May for the door-to-door food drives. This year has been a lot different, owing to the COVID situation, but our Scouts are not used to saying the word impossible. David Chant, head leader for their cub pack, reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank. I say a big thank you to Scout leaders like David, who are strong role models for our youth, teaching them the importance of leadership, kindness and giving back. David and his group of Scouts raised over $46,000 worth of food last year for the Mississauga Food Bank and The Compass. Again, I give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young Scouts, who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): May 24 to May 31 is Tourism Week in Canada. This annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of Canada's tourism industry. This is a very important industry, and this year's Tourism Week is a little different from what it normally is. The ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel, and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns. Clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen. Operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening. While this Tourism Week is not a celebration like the one we had expected, I anticipate next year's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in Canada. Chair, Monday was a sad day in my riding of BonavistaBurinTrinity, and indeed our entire province. Please join me as I offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of St. Ed Norman, his son Scott Norman and his nephew Jody Norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past Monday. After a courageous search mission by Canadian Coast Guard auxiliary members and the Department of National Defence and Provincial Airlines, he is unfortunately still missing. Chair, I am sure the entire province of Newfoundland and Labrador, this parliamentary family and Canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men, along with their friends and families, during this difficult time. This builder of Quebec's political history drew his last breath at the age of91, late Sunday night. Mr.Dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in Jonquire. He first became involved in the Alcan employee's union in Arvida, then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor, then in the Quebec National Assembly as the member for Jonquire. He will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community, a man of integrity, a people person, who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in Quebec. On behalf of the people of the riding of Jonquire and all the people of Quebec, I offer my most sincere condolences to FrancisDufour's family and loved ones. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The pandemic has greatly affected Montreal East, particularly the riding of Hochelaga, which I represent. Today, I'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in Hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations, including Anonyme, CAP St-Barnab, CARE Montral, the Cuisine collective Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, Bouffe Action, the Centre Communautaire Hochelaga, Chic Resto Pop, Jojo Dpannage, Groupe d'Entraide de Mercier-Ouest and many others. I'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves, including the Coop Couturires Pop, to make masks. Allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours. Chair, I rise today to pay tribute to a great Albertan and former parliamentarian, Louise Feltham, who passed away this Monday after a lengthy battle with cancer. She inspired the family motto How hard can it be? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime. Her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural Alberta, the first female reeve in rural Alberta and the first woman born in Newfoundland to serve in this chamber. My thoughts and sympathies are with him, his wife Tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss. Chair, it is a great honour to speak to the House of Commons today from Whitehorse, Yukon, here on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dn First Nation and the Ta'an Kwch'n Council. As a great historic Canadian event last week, Yukon became home to Canada's first university north of 60. Yukon University will provide Yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home, expand our research capabilities and expertise on the Arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north. I encourage all students living in the northern half of Canada to look at the many programs and degrees at Yukon University to continue their studiesin some cases this year, virtuallyby remaining in the north. I want to congratulate the staff of Yukon College, who spent the last decade working towards this transition, and especially the outgoing president, Karen Barnes. First of all, from the Long Range Mountains, I too want to send my condolences to my colleague, Mr. We're all communities that rely on the sea, and we understand the importance and the tragedy, and the hard work it is being fishers. However, today, colleagues, I want to mention, as my colleague from across the way said, that it's national tourism week, so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings. The tourism economy was hit very hard, especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs. It's exciting to speak with them about how they're working on their new normal and how it's going to be developed and implemented here in the Long Range Mountains. Remember too that many of our national parks are opening on June 1, so get out and explore the park in your backyard. I look forward to working with the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, Destination Canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic, we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the COVID-19 crisis occurred. I would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of LvisLotbinire. Fine men and women committed to human dignity, volunteers, retirees, and you, who have wisely agreed to stay home, you have been part, to varying degrees, of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst. Many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again; our seniors are being cuddled, with great care, and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job. I say bravo, thank you and don't give up, even though you have already earned your place in heaven. From his laboratories at the Univerist de Montral, he worked with CHUM and the Centre hospitalier universitaire SainteJustine, renowned institutions in Outremont. They are Quebeckers, Canadians, who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives. Since coming into office, our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science. Recently, we announced new funding for COVID-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers. We are working very hard to find a vaccine for COVID-19, and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we don't even know the names of yet. Chair, citizens in my riding of AuroraOak RidgesRichmond Hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families, their friends and even strangers during this difficult period. The Aurora Chamber of Commerce and the Richmond Hill Board of Trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times. Organizations like The STEAM Project and Ganesha Temple are making and donating face masks for those in need. The Aurora Farmers' Market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us, but this year with one key person missing. Our community has lost one of the farmers' market's founders, our jam lady, Jan Freedman. My sincere thanks to everyone who's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits. We also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren, which is why it is important to be prudent, to make wise choices and, above all, to know where we are going. It's a shame that every time we ask the government a question, no minister can tell us how big the Canadian deficit is. In fact, last Tuesday, at a parliamentary committee meeting in the Senate, the Parliamentary Budget Officer made some very scathing remarks about the government. He said that there had to be a deadline or we'd be heading toward taxation levels that haven't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit. The Prime Minister needs to know that we can't play Santa Claus every day, because the bills in January come in fast, and they are high. That's why I'm so disappointed that the Liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women. Not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia, it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time. Now we've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors, when plasma is so critical in emerging COVID-19 research and treatment. More than 17 countries, including Argentina, Italy and Spain, have no deferral period for men who have sex with men. They know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules. I have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and I do so again today, but today I also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who cannot. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. On another note, the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses. In Rivire-des-Mille-les, as in many other ridings, we respond daily to businesses that don't have access to it. Unfortunately, there are people in our ridings who won't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer. It's so embarrassing that it's shameful, disrespectful and ridiculous. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. This week is Paramedic Services Week, and I would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives. Their efforts during COVID-19, like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care, such as personal support workers, doctors, nurses, janitorial and clerical staff, lab technicians and many others, have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty. I hope this week all Canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead. Chair, I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic, the cancellation of the Kinmount Fair, a renowned event that has been running since 1870. This year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary, but in true Kinmount spirit, this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the members of the Canadian Armed Forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities. Through the observations and testimonies of these members, we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time. Among many other loathsome details, they were left to starve, were abused and lived in filth, their cries of anguish ignored. It is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again. Usually there are a few extra seconds, which doesn't matter, but some of them have gone quite a bit over time, so starting Monday we'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds. I encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them, and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we don't go over our allotted time. I would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they're saying. I'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in, as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber. The government has consistently worked to shut down Parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by Zoom. However, for work of the G7 the Prime Minister said, theres no question that in-person meetings...are much more effective than even virtual meetings. By pushing to go virtual, is it the Prime Minister's goal to make Canada's Parliament less effective? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. In fact, I am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from Ottawa than I do have the opportunity to join us. Parliament plays an essential role in our democracy, and it's the chair: We will go back to Mr. A Saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online AgriStability calculator. He said that most farmers can't use it, that in fact they can't put in their inventory changes. Why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it doesn't actually work? hon. Chair, the agricultural sector is critical to our country, and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are, as Canadians, to be living in an agricultural superpower. When it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have, they should turn to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, who will be delighted to help. john barlow: Could the Deputy Prime Minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online AgriStability calculator? hon. chrystia freeland: What I can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator, but they've been told they would go broke before they received any money. Will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to Canadian farmers? hon. Chair, very many farmers, and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance, have worked with accountants for a very long time. The last time I questioned the Prime Minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data, they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the House. Will that be tabled today, in both official languages, to justify to Canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic? hon. I am proud of the sophistication of Canadian farmers, and I'm proud of the support we offer them. Some honourable members: Oh, oh! the chair: I want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via Zoom. I just want to make sure they're aware of what they're doing to our colleagues who are online. Chair, for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist Canada's energy sector. Small oil and gas companies still can't qualify for BDC loans, and last week's announcement for large employers, in my opinion, was nothing of exploitive. If the government doesn't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector, it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable Canadian jobs. After 64 days, when will the credit options be available to Canada's small and medium-sized energy companies? hon. Chair, I agree with the member opposite about one thing: The energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy, and we support them. One of the things I am most proud of is the $1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): Mr.Chair, I'll try not to spend too much time. Will the Liberal Party of Canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers, help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a no. The company doesn't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28% instead of30%. Does the Liberal Party of Canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of Val-Jalbert and Trillium Media? hon. member opposite what we're doing to support Canadians: more than 8million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers' pockets? It even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store. On the other side of the House, is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support Canadians and Quebeckers: 293applications for the Canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved. Over 2million Canadians today have the chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. It's fantastic! The money that the Liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty. When they go to get their election expenses reimbursed, they're going to get 60%of that money back. We think we all need to work together to continue to help Canadians and Quebeckers the chair: Order. alexis brunelle-duceppe: I don't know how to take it this time. I think it's necessary to stop, eject and throw the tape out, and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask. Can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question? Are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so, once again, make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, we've already seen a Duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the Liberal Party for the Liberal Party. colleague tell me if she's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they don't deserve the wage subsidy, because their loss of income is only28% or29%, while her party is dipping into the cookie jar, yes or no? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help Canadians in this historic crisis. Our economic support program is the largest program in Canada's history the chair: We will now continue with Mr. Will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, that's a very important question, and I would like to thank the member for asking it. Chair, experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors, there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors. Will the Liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors? hon. Chair, I want to start by saying one thing, and that is to publicly thank, in this House, Brigadier-General Conrad Mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in Ontario. What they did is historic, and we all need to the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. However, they don't need our thanks right now; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out. What is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own? hon. Chair, I agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week, all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in Canada in the future. jagmeet singh: If all the options are on the table, will the Liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care, particularly in the Revera long-term care homes, the second-largest number in Canada, which the government owns? Will it commit to removing profit from long-term care? hon. chrystia freeland: What we will commit to doand I hope with the support of all members of this Houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners, under whose jurisdiction this falls, to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, Revera is a Crown corporation owned by the government, so let's not hear excuses. Is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for? Is it providing for robust inspections, yes or no? hon. One of the strengths of Canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions, and they serve us extremely well. Will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in Revera? As we've seen, it is facing a $50-million lawsuit, and there's been horrible negligence. Chair, as I said at the outset, the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table. I also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing, which is to work very closely with the provinces, under whose jurisdiction this falls. In just the past 24 hours, I have spoken with Premier Ford, Premier Horgan and Premier Moe, and our conversation included long-term care facilities. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Today I join critics from the NDP, the Bloc and the Green Party who deal with women's issues and gender equality to ask where the $75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone. Last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls, so the simple question is this: Where is the money? hon. I agree that human trafficking, which is a crime of coercion and exploitation, is unacceptable, and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime. As the member knows, we have launched a new, comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking, and we've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: We'll go back to Ms. karen vecchio: With all due respect, it's great that we have a strategy, but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services, a strategy is nothing. Chair, let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking. I remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports, and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: We'll go back to Ms. What should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now? What is the answer from the government? hon. Chair, no one should have to live a life with violence, whether it's sexual, physical, financial or emotional, and that the government of Canada the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. Yesterday I happened to be part of the health committee, and the Battered Women's Support Services representative was there as a witness. She shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with, over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters, did not receive funding. They are receiving funds through Feminists Deliver, but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities, and we will have more to say soon. Chair, we know that calls to centres like Battered Women's Support Services have gone up by 300 times, so this is a huge concern I have. As I said, hundreds of organizations like the Battered Women's Support Services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days. Chair, some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400% with their capacity limited by 400%. We've centres and women's shelters, and 700 have received funds, with more to come soon. I appreciate that this Parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: We'll go back to Ms. karen vecchio: If we're talking about being a feminist government, I have one single question. Yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question, so I will ask the Minister for Women and Gender Equality. How can a feminist government support the Wet'suwet'en First Nation women whose titles were stripped from them? hon. We are happy to do that, and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward. karen vecchio: These women have lost their titles, and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs. Why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles? hon. Chair, I think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations, Inuit, and Mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws. Right now the Wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like. The Uyghur Human Rights Policy Act has passed both houses of Congress in the United States and is now on the way to the Oval Office for signature. What is Canada's position on this Muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the Communist Party of China? hon. Chair, we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the Uighurs and other minorities in China. Their Muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in Bangladesh, which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic. We will continue to call on the Chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people, including the freedom of religion, are fully respected. david sweet: Yesterday the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the Communist Party of China. mary ng: Canada, with our international partners in the U.S., Australia and the U.K., made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong. david sweet: Canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak. The Suez Canal, Cyprus, the fall of apartheid, child and maternal health in Africa, and Afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how Canada has weighed in significantly. Chair, with hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in Hong Kong's stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world. david sweet: I think the 300,000 Canadians who are in Hong Kong want a little bit more than interest from the government. What exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 Canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now? hon. Chair, Canada has expressed deep concern regarding China's imposition of the new security law for Hong Kong. We are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world. After being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday, 300 students were arrested in Hong Kong while peacefully protesting. Where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the CPC is doing in Hong Kong? hon. Chair, as we have said, we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on Hong Kong. Chair, I'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that I asked. Yesterday, the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill, undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the Chinese Communist Party. mary ng: Canada will continue to support Hong Kong's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the Basic Law and the one country, two systems framework. Canada and our international partners, with the U.S., Australia and the U.K., have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Steven Blaney: I am pleased to represent the city of Lvis, because it is a privilege, Mr.Chair. It is the city where Alphonse Desjardins, who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement, was born. We thought it was to improve the program, but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between April7 and9? hon. We have added flexibilities, including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until February of next year. It remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students, with 100% of them being subsidized at 100%. steven blaney: The minister confirms that the budget remains the same, but that by subsidizing each job more, they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic. Why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic, when our young people want to work? hon. Chair, I can assure the member, all members and all Canadians that despite the fact that he's singling out the Canada summer jobs program, we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy, with an additional 40,000 placements for students. I can assure the member that we are the chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blaney once again. steven blaney: How many jobs are vacant right now? The program is lagging behind compared to other years. Why, and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs? hon. We created flexibilities in Canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions. I can assure young Canadians that there is work for them there, and I encourage them to check out the job bank. steven blaney: The minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic, when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people. Why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the Canada summer jobs program, when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic? hon. We've increased the number of jobs funded through our government's youth programs by over 100%. We've added flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this. I can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer. steven blaney: When the minister says maximize, she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same, but that each position is funded more. My question is very simple: why not fund more jobs through the Canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the Canada emergency student benefit, which does not allow young people to get work experience? We need young people and they want to work. carla qualtrough: I agree, absolutely, that we need young people to work this summer. Canada summer jobs is being maxed out, and that's a good thing, because we've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs. I can assure the member that we're creating so many jobs, and it's so exciting for our young people. steven blaney: The Canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work, and employers have difficulty hiring them. Chair, I'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work. Yesterday my colleague asked the Minister of Public Safety a question, and he did not get a good answer. Why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when Canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the U.S.? hon. Chair, to correct an error that was just repeated, we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel. We currently have an agreement with the United States that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the United States. I have another citizen who's married to an American woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back. I also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they're not allowing custody arrangements between Canadians and Americans to continue. At the same time, we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of Canadians. We've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families. Chair, the Minister of Agriculture has known there's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing. We don't have a BSE exemption that would allow us to use American processors, and there's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): We have done a great deal for the meat sector lately. We have invested $100million in the beef and pork sectors through the AgriRecovery program. That's a significant increase, because in the last few years the program has provided between $7million and $15million only. We have also invested $77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: We'll go back to Ms. What is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling, especially in this pandemic? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, once again, we have helped the meat sector through the AgriRecovery program and we have put in place a $77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: We will go back to Ms. To the Minister of National Revenue, I've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed. When will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, we consider this to be a difficult situation for Canadians, and our government will do everything it can to support them. I can confirm that the CRA is still processing paper returns, but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing, Canadians can expect delays. We regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: We will go back to Ms.Gladu. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): Mr.Chair, I have a point of order. I'm not sure whether there's anything we can do now, but we'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting. Chair, obviously with COVID, many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief. The Canadian Grief Alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling. patty hajdu (minister of health): I'm not aware of that specific proposal, but I commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and I will take a look. Can the Minister of Health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering? hon. patty hajdu: I know I don't have much time, but let me repeat our infomercial to Canadians. They should visit Wellness Together Canada, the portal that will provide access for Canadians to a variety of mental health supports, including connection to professionals. Major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future, many event venues right now, such as concert halls and fairgrounds, are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue. I can think of many in my riding, such as the Saskatoon Fringe Festival, Shakespeare on the Saskatchewan, the jazz festival, the folk festival, along with WDM and the Aviation Museum. Can the Minister of Canadian Heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): As the member knows, we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector. We have provided advance help to a number of organizations from Canadian Heritage programs or the Canada Council for the Arts on top of the $500-million program, which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations. The reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation even more disturbing. I asked the minister on May 7 about these allegations, and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them. We can't afford to have a Crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country. Has the minister begun the investigation into the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and does he have any information that he can share with us here today? hon. steven guilbeault: As the member said, these are allegations, and as you well know, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is an independent body. Chair, is that these allegations against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation came from an organization in the minister's own province of Quebec, so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the CBC, or can the government's friends at the CBC simply get away with anything? hon. steven guilbeault: Allegations are allegations, whether they are made in Quebec, Ontario or Alberta. kevin waugh: When I last rose, on May 7, the committee responsible for the government's massive $595-million media bailout package had not met. Has the committee met? If yes, when can the media organizationsand I hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised? If it hasn't met, when is it going to meet? hon. steven guilbeault: As the member is well aware, this program is a tax-break program. In order for organizations to qualify, they had to file their income tax forms, which they have done over the last few weeks. The program is in place, and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer. kevin waugh: There was $30 million rolled out to media organizations, some 1,400 organizations. Has the $30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations? the chair: Honourable minister, go ahead for 20 seconds or less, please. I would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I'm feeling generous today, and I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Pierre-BoucherLesPatriotesVerchres. At the beginning of the crisis, the government called on entrepreneurs in Quebec and Canada, inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing. Many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security, enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind. However, on May22, despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the SUB program would still be in place when the CERB was introduced, they were surprised. Employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the CERB because of the alleged gains they had made under the SUB program. At SOPREMA, one of the large employers in the Drummondville region, 150employees are affected. At Bridgestone, in Joliette, 1,100employees are affected by this decision. At Goodyear, in Valleyfield, 150employees are affected, and there are dozens more. Does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period? hon. carla qualtrough: When we put in place the Canada emergency response benefit, the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for COVID reasons. We understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward, although let me clarify that SUB plans that existed prior to March 15 are definitely in place. We consider the fact that workers have access to $1,000 a month in addition to CERBand we've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way. martin champoux: Mr.Chair, employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented, despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the CERB. Does the government intend to fix this mistake, which would simply be the right thing to do? hon. Chair, I can assure the member opposite that the SUB plans that were in place prior to March 15 are indeed in place now. In addition, employees who are now on the CERB as an alternative have access to $1,000 of income in addition to their CERB. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. On April27, Option consommateurs sent a letter to the Minister of Transport to warn him that the airlines' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to Quebec's laws. marc garneau (minister of transport): Mr.Chair, I sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund, and I understand their frustration. A few hours ago, the following motion was passed unanimously: THAT the National Assembly ask the Government of Canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund. marc garneau: Mr.Chair, as my hon.colleague knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that, in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way, it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years. the chair: Mr.Barsalou-Duval, you have about 15seconds for a question. xavier barsalou-duval: Mr.Chair, I find it rather odd that the Minister of Transport and the Canadian Transportation Agency are telling the airlines that Quebec's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them. Theoretically, under the famous Canadian Constitution, which they imposed on us, that is not how it should work. colleague probably knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm's length from Transport Canada and the Government of Canada. We're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety, including myself. Chair, I'll be sharing my time with the member for GlengarryPrescottRussell. Minister, in Etobicoke Centre, we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville Care Centre. This week, we received a disturbing report from the Canadian Armed Forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes Grace Manor in Brampton. As I said in the House of Commons on May 7, we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care. The four other MPs who represent the residents of these homes and I wrote to Premier Ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations, to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the Government of Canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country. Minister, will you call on the Government of Ontario to establish a full public inquiry, and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across Canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve? the acting chair (mr. I think all Canadians were horrified, shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country. I know the Prime Minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors, no matter where they live. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): Mr.Chair, we know that farmers across Canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months. I was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, in these unprecedented times, our producers are working that much harder to feed Canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy, particularly in terms of access to labour. To help them, this week, the Prime Minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector. This is a $9.2-million investment that will help to attract young Canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector. In early April, the NDP asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords, but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord can't or does not want to apply. On Monday we wrote to ministers again, asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants can't be kicked out. Will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during COVID-19? the acting chair (mr. We recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular, as well as landlords, are facing during the course of COVID-19. We have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants. Of course, we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces, so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps, if any, in this regard. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this, which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants. If the government won't negotiate a moratorium, will it at least let tenants apply for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50% of their rent? hon. The federal government is working through the CMHC to provide support to landlords, which is conditional on their working with their tenants, but of course, it is a provincial area of jurisdiction, so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on. Chair, they talk about wanting to support small businesses, but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business. Many people in my riding could not make rent on April 1 and May 1, and June 1 is coming up. For businesses, of course, we've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program. leah gazan: I just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question I asked. In fact, the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question. I am monitoring that, and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over. In fact, we try to cut it off at the appropriate time, allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase, and that's the extent of it. Chair, Winnipeg Centre is the third-poorest riding in the country, and COVID-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness. Instead of bailing out its corporate buddies, when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets? the acting chair (mr. In addition to that, we have provided over $157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across Canada . How can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes? Will this government provide support, yes or no? hon. Chair, once again, we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses. In addition to that, we have moved additional dollars, in the amount of $157.5 million, to the most vulnerable, including the homeless population in Canada. rachael harder: As this pandemic began to spread, the government propagated China's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible. Chair, the member opposite's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting. I'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late December, and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting, the information changed. rachael harder: I'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading. Chair, since the very beginning, we have been advising Canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus. rachael harder: The minister also said that face masks weren't necessary, that they wouldn't help Canadians. Chair, as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus, as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence, we adapted to adjust our advice to Canadians. rachael harder: Why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the Canadian public misinformation? hon. rachael harder: Back in January when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of COVID-19, Conservatives asked the government if it would do the same. As the member opposite knows, we took strong measures at the border, as recommended by the international health regulations, and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time. rachael harder: I cannot agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is, in fact, incredibly wrong, which is why the government should simply apologize to the Canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep, that they didn't need to wear face masks, that we didn't need to close our borders, that human contact or contraction was impossible. Why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the Canadian public? Some hon. Chair, I maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward, that as new advice comes forward.... I'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously, now that she understands that they are misleading. Chair, I am so proud of Canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health. rachael harder: On February 3, Conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action. Unfortunately, Minister Hajdu scolded Conservative MPs, stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus. Chair, very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the Canadian community. We took strong action to assure those Canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in Canada. rachael harder: Would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the House somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is? hon. Tam was convening members of the Canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust Canadian response to an issue of potential concern. Chair, while the government has told the Canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about, that we didn't need to close the borders and that face masks weren't necessary, they were misleading the Canadian public. Now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth, spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online. Would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the Canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. Chair, I want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that Canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves. bruce stanton): I invite the honourable member for MganticL'rable to take the floor. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. One million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a CHSLD; it is a new fire station; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in Quebec. With $1million, the Liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. Does the Minister of Infrastructure agree with the bank's board, which is being so generous to its president with Canadians' money? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): Mr.Chair, I am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country. We are building by investing in renewable energy, green infrastructure and public transit, including in the member's riding. Chair, could the infrastructure minister explain to Canadians how it is better to give $1 million in bonuses to the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank than to invest in roads, schools, hospitals and long-term care homes? hon. Perhaps he isn't aware of our $33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the Government of Quebec to build infrastructure that's making a huge difference, including projects in the member's riding. On April3, the previous president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear. How much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the Canada Infrastructure Bank? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, the change of management at the Canada Infrastructure Bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank. We are working to build a modern, public infrastructure, to create jobs, and to make Canada more competitive internationally. What were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former CEO had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus, when few, if any, projects were financed by the bank? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the former CEO, Pierre Lavalle, for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution. luc berthold: Did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank? hon. catherine mckenna: As I have already said, the compensation range for the CEO is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. If the new president stays in the position for five years, he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $4million, in addition to his salary of $3million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money? hon. catherine mckenna: We have to build our country, create good short-term jobs, ensure that we have a cleaner future, invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges, public transportation the acting chair (mr. Chair, if the new CEO stays in office for five years, he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $4 million, in addition to his salary of $3 million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money, yes or no? hon. Chair, I'm very proud that we have Michael Sabia, who is now head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank as the board chair. We need to move forward in building infrastructure that's going to create jobs, including in the member's riding; that's going to help move us to a cleaner future; that's going to grow our economy and increase Canada's competitiveness. Chair, the COVID-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially. Christian Buhagiar of Supply Chain Canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency. Will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to COVID-19? the acting chair (mr. Chair, the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the Canada free trade agreement, focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers. Due to COVID-19, it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed. Chair, it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers, who have been meeting every week for more than two months, to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus. However, I agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade. Chair, while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic, two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection. Considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic, would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items? the acting chair (mr. I can assure you, as far as the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is concerned, that we are very open to that issue. Moreover, the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another. Does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, since we are discussing the food supply chain, let me remind you that we are committed to spending $50million, specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it, through the food bank network, to regions where the need is greatest. Chair, reports state that activists' rail blockades earlier this year cost the Canadian economy $275 million, and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down. The supply chain industry just caught up, and then the pandemic hit, creating new issues and backlogs. We are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country. Will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades? the acting chair (mr. Chair, I couldn't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country. Certain products are moving very well at the moment, including grain, potash and coal, but other goods haven't moved as quickly, because they have been affected by the pandemic. We are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible, whether it's by our railways, by trucks or by ships. Chair, at the standing committee for industry this week, David Montpetit of the Western Canadian Shippers' Coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months. This could backlog essential goods interprovincially, including food and medicine, if the capacity isn't there. With respect to trucking, we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country. Young and new farmers are struggling, as they don't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times. Price insurance is key, but the premiums are so expensive due to COVID that they can't participate. marie-claude bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair, we are encouraging the use of private programs, as well as the risk management programs. cathay wagantall: Has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure my colleague that I am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues. cathay wagantall: Is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, for insurance protection, our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk. cathay wagantall: Without price insurance, how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers. For example, we are providing $50million through the AgriRecovery program and $77.5million for food processors. cathay wagantall: On May 1, the Young Cattlemen's Council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day. We are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs, in addition to the risk management programs, of course. cathay wagantall: She didn't respond to the request of the Young Cattlemen's Council. The minister is telling farmers to access the BRM program, but just now I got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who's losing $250 to $300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis. The Farm Credit Canada lending capacity was increased by $5 billion, but only to service and manage loans of current customers. marie-claude bibeau: However, Mr.Chair, there is a whole range of programs for our producers, whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector, or the Canada emergency business account, the CEBA, the criteria of which have been broadened. This allows us to provide more loans, also with a forgivable portion of 25%, which could amount to $670million for the agricultural sector. cathay wagantall: What percentage of Canada's farmers are customers of Farm Credit Canada? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, Farm Credit Canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers. cathay wagantall: Of the 25% of farmers who use FCC and have applied, how many have received assistance? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I stand to be corrected but, according to the most recent information I have received, $4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began. cathay wagantall: Is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers aren't able to protect the value of their herds, which they cannot do, jeopardizing the future of the Canadian beef supply chain? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure you that I am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector. That is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones, especially in support of the meat industry. cathay wagantall: They made it clear that the BRM programs don't work and there's not funding in place to assist them. How many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this Liberal government? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Once again, Mr.Chair, we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect. The Minister of Employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities, similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on OAS and GIS. Could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made? When can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance? the acting chair (mr. Chair, we know that Canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by COVID in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have, or don't have, more specifically. We are three days away from National AccessAbility Week, the first week after we legislated it in the Accessible Canada Act. My office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program. How will the government ensure that the messaging for BCAP and similar programs is articulated properly? the acting chair (mr. Nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported. The lending program through BCAP is available through financial institutions; that's banks and credit unions across the country. Chair, members may not be aware, but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic, to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority. Can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation? the acting chair (mr. Thank you to my colleague for her important question, which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for Canadians, being mindful, of course, of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves, both personally and professionally. We know that, in particular, indigenous communities need that support, and particularly so in the context of the crisis. jody wilson-raybould: As current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes, something I would strongly support, can the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released? In asking this question, I certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic. There are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation. As we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report, we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited, plus. Despite the challenges of COVID-19, they have put in good initiatives, and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners. Wilson-Raybould, you're down to about the last 30 seconds, so please ask a short question. Does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers? I've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard. Chair, as I mentioned before, we're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment. However, the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time, and if they had to reimburse at this time, some of them could fail. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): Thank you very much, Mr. I want to begin by indicating that I'll be splitting my time with the member for SkeenaBulkley Valley. Across the country, a lot of Canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace, with the right procedures and the right equipment. For Canadians who are employed by them, that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they don't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities, and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they're not at work or because they will lose access to the CERB. I am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer hasn't done its due diligence, and are concerned about losing access to the CERB. Chair, we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we don't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work. We are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe, that they don't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts. Chair, I think the issue here is that Canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer, or an offer to come back to work, so that they wouldn't be on the CERB. Can Canadians be confident that they can stay on the CERB whether they go back to work or not, whether their employer makes them an offer or not? I think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it's a difficult time. When is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work? hon. Chair, we know that the provinces have their own workers' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms, but the point for us, here in government, is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe. Canadians depend on municipalities across Canada for vital services, especially during this pandemicservices like transit, drinking water, parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis. Local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help, yet mostly what we've heard are excuses. Does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time? hon. chrystia freeland: What we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times, and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy. We are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces, in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall. taylor bachrach: Through you to the minister, we've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way. We've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off, and it's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief. We are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in, and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning, particularly as we move into the restart. We're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces, as we are doing too. Are there emergency federal dollars on the table for Canada's cities, yes, or no? hon. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. At a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and Quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts, the Liberal Party, the government, is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it, not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters. At a time when the work in the House is even more essentialwe should be working even harder, just as we are asking the people to dothe government, with the complicity of the NDP, decides to suspend the work of the House. Can the government confirm to the House, and simultaneously to the NDP, that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do? It is not in its jurisdiction, so it is a measure that it cannot implement. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): Mr.Chair, in order to be part of any agreement, you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table. The Bloc Qubcois says it wants to make gains for Quebec, but in order to do that, it must be sitting at the table, not outside the room. It's like a hockey game; if you want to score goals, you have to be on the ice. The other day, I asked this question: how many of Guy Lafleur's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench? mrs. marilne gill: Let me shoot the puck back to the Leader of the Government in the House. But when you play a sport, when you are on a team, and when you are in Parliament, you still have to play by the rules. We have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the Bloc Qubcois. It was going very well, but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked. When you are not happy, you do not go off and sulk; you stay at the table and negotiate. When a player decides not to play by the rules, I do not let myself be taken in twice. I prefer to negotiate here, as we should be doing all the time in Parliament, not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word. I would just like the Leader of the Government in the House to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen. I could also ask him whether he found out from the Government of Quebec whether it agreed with the measure. What does she have against the fact that, from now on, people will be able to ask questions about anything, not just about COVID-19? What does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer? What is it that she does not like? the acting chair (mr. First, 37.5hours per week, as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees, is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us. pablo rodriguez: Mr.Chair, it all depends on government decisions, and clearly, we are having discussions with the provinces. However, I still do not understand what she has against having more time than I do to ask questions. bruce stanton): We will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Sweet, the member for Flamborough-Glanbrook, got up and was raising a number of issues about the Hong Kong protests, where 360 people have been arrested. The People's Republic of China, the regime in Beijing, and their rubber-stamp parliament, the National People's Congress, are circumventing Hong Kong legislation and the Hong Kong government in putting their own will upon the people of Hong Kong. Chair, I'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that Parliament can actually discuss this crisis, this human rights crisis, as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in Beijing. He may know, and for the benefit of other honourable members, that we're operating in this Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week. Of course, he'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared, so he might want to pursue that opportunity. Minister, I've been informed by some of my colleagues that CRA officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of Parliament to resolve CRA-related issues. Why on earth would CRA direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes? hon. You really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is, although I appreciate that. Also, on your website, it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to Canadians until June 5, and there is no further information about further live service. When will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need? the acting chair (mr. I've talked to my colleagues, and no chair, including the chair of the finance committee, has ever asked me to address a question through the chair. So with the greatest of respect, unless this is in fact Parliament, which I'm told it's not and the Parliament voted that it's not, we really should be able to address the witnesses directly, should we not? the acting chair (mr. This really is a question around the way in which this special committee on COVID-19 has been structured. We're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the House in an order that was passed and adopted on Tuesday of this week, so we're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way, and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon. So I ask you to abide by the rules of the committee, and we'll pursue that. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic COVID-19 period. I must tell you that CRA call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly. marty morantz: Some of my colleagues have spoken to the CRA about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations, citing COVID-19 as a reason. Has the CRA removed these boxes at all locations? Given this, will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free, since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations? hon. At the CRA, we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do. marty morantz: On the subject of paper returns, there have been numerous reportsin fact I asked you on May 10 for a written response at the government operations committee, OGGO, which I have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns. When will Canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I can confirm that the Canada Revenue Agency continues to process paper returns. Because of COVID-19, we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees. The minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head. How many successful prosecutions have there been in Canada for the illegal use of tax havens? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, as we have said, one of our government's priorities was to invest almost $1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion. bruce stanton): That concludes the 13thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Speaker Rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting, which will be next Monday, we'll be watching more carefully the time for members' statements. We ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute, as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you that, when speaking, you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking. I understand we don't have any ministerial announcements today, so we'll proceed to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, a future problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze, enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly, universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea is to be as concise as possible. The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the ever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of law-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. They're asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. There's been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. That period can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. The petitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended. Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term care facilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have made us stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. We have not been there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. the chair: Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. michael barrett (leedsgrenvillethousand islands and rideau lakes, cpc): During these trying times, the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge. They've made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe. It would be impossible to list everyone who has emerged as a community hero, but I'd like to highlight a few, like Lily, an eight-year-old from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank by building and selling squirrel picnic tables, and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who's making masks for long-term care facilities and selling others in support of the Breast Cancer Action centre. The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some $27,000 in support of charitable groups throughout the region. Who can forget our top-notch health care workers like Hannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID-19 testing centre? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great. Chair, the Indian Act enshrined racism into Canadian law in 1876, and, through residential schools, the child welfare system, our legal system and our police, we criminalized and tore apart indigenous peoples. The deaths of Chantel Moore and Rodney Levi and the assault on Chief Allan Adam are recent examples of systemic racism within the RCMP. Anti-black racism has resulted in more young black men being jailed, children being streamed or excluded from schools and negative police interaction due to profiling. It is now time to reimagine and rework our institutions, starting with our police, to ensure that all Canadians can achieve their truest potential. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. That's why the increase in the old age security benefit and the guaranteed income supplement must be extended beyond the pandemic. In three weeks, our seniors will receive their first cheque, when they should be receiving their second. A date must also be announced for the new horizons for seniors program, which helps several groups develop projects to break the isolation of seniors. In closing, I would like to mention the organization Justice alternative et mdiation that during the pandemic, along with other organizations in Shefford, has set up the project Une histoire pour la tienne, which also serves to mark this day. It's a virtual meeting between young people and seniors, allowing them to exchange some inspiring life experiences. Since age prejudice is very much present, I applaud this project, which aims to make us understand each other better and judge each other less. Chair, in the time of this terrible crisis affecting all Canadians, when we are all thinking about how best to deal with it, let's all think about the people around us. Let's show our representation not only to those in the sector of sanctioned workers, but also to all those Canadians who day by day stand up and make a difference. I want to acknowledge and celebrate all the contributions made by the people of Brampton Centre, all religious institutions, civil society and community organizations like Knights Table in my riding. Chair, whether graduating from elementary school, high school, Georgian College or graduating from colleges or universities across the country, I am proud of the accomplishments of all the graduates across BruceGreyOwen Sound. I would also like to congratulate and thank all the teachers and parents who have adapted to teaching online or from home and who have supported these graduates over the course of their academic careers. I'd like to extend special congratulations to Cameron Lovell, who just graduated from grade eight, as well as to Neebeesh and Neebin Elliott, originally from the Nawash unceded first nation on the Bruce Peninsula, who will be headed to Michigan State University, and to Jared Lumley from Owen Sound, who just graduated from my alma mater, the Royal Military College of Canada. The college motto of Truth, Duty, Valour is something all Canadians should aspire to live by. serge cormier (acadiebathurst, lib.): Today I pay tribute to RichardLosier, an entrepreneur, visionary and builder who died on June9, 2020, surrounded by his family. In1968, he co-founded St.Isidore Asphalte, a company that now has more than 200employees. He was unifying and generous, a philanthropist who cared about young people and never missed an opportunity to improve their lives. I met Mr.Losier when I was 14years old, and I can say that he has been a positive influence in my life. Every time I met him, he gave me a lot of advice and encouragement, which I've never forgotten. I offer my most sincere condolences to his children, Richard Jr., Ronald, Nathalie, Caroline and Stphane, and to his family and friends. julie dabrusin (torontodanforth, lib.): Hello from my community in east end Toronto. People talk about how a city the size of Toronto can be cold, but that's far from the truth in my community. Wong of Earl Grey Senior Public School, who delivered home-baked cookies and handwritten notes to all of his students, or Monsieur Steve, who's offering online French classes, or the teachers of Riverdale Collegiate, who paraded through our streets to celebrate our graduates. Our local Michael Garron Hospital put out a call for community members to sew masks and received over 60,000 masks, including those made by Lisa Tancre of Chartwell Avondale Retirement Residence. Restaurants, even while facing adversity, have been generously donating food, like the members of the Leslieville BIA or Mezes. There are so many more stories of generosity that I could share, but I'm out of time. Chair, on Saturday night, Calgarians, particularly those in the northeast, in my riding of Calgary Skyview, witnessed a devastating storm, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime. Homes, vehicles, community buildings and structures suffered significant damage due to large hail, floods and high winds. My heart aches for those who have been impacted by the storm in an already incredibly difficult time, but we are resilient. We know that in the coming weeks there will be a lot of cleanup required, both to personal property and in the community. I'd like to express my sincere gratitude to the people of West Nippissing who organized Pride activities to celebrate the LGBTQ community in June. I thank the public servants for their dedication to the Nickel Belt community and the Valley East and Rayside-Balfour areas. Chair, when COVID-19 began spreading across Ontario, Markham, like many other communities, was unprepared. When Markham residents heard about these shortages, my office was flooded with calls from people who had PPE and wanted to donate. Since then my office has been able to deliver tens of thousands of PPE supplies to front-line health care workers and five masks to each family in need. This pandemic has shown that no matter what the challenge is, the Markham community will overcome it. As we start to see local businesses reopen, it is important for all of us to remember to follow best practices outlined by local public health. It is important for all of us to respect social distancing, to protect all workers and their families. the chair: Again, my apologies for skipping over there, but now we'll to to Ms. Chair, in commemoration of Italian Heritage Month, I would like to pay tribute to the Colombo Lodge and Italian Cultural Centre in Kamloops, British Columbia. Recently they began Colombo Cares take-home dinners with proceeds distributed to different non-profit organizations throughout the region. Last month they very generously gave away hundreds of dinners to Royal Inland Hospital staff and paramedics for their tireless work throughout the pandemic. In their own words they say, Colombo Lodge is very proud of the Italians that have made Kamloops their home. Community members of Italian ancestrypast and presenthave helped and continue to help Kamloops prosper as a giving, welcoming and inclusive community. People are worried about what will happen when the CERB runs out in two weeks' time, and the coming tourism season looks very grim. The province itself is in serious financial crisis due to the pandemic and the decline in oil prices. The federal government must overhaul and enhance the fiscal stabilization program to help Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and other oil-producing provinces through this crisis. This is a challenge and an opportunity to transition to a sustainable energy future, but it will require significant investment and support by government to keep the industry strong and make this a just transition for workers. marie-hlne gaudreau (laurentideslabelle, bq): Mr.Chair, all 44elected municipal officials in the riding of LaurentidesLabelle and I have sent a letter to the government asking that cellular and high-speed Internet networks be made available to all. The territorial complexity of the Laurentians means that there are areas where the signal is weak, unstable or non-existent. Also, because of the lockdown, Internet failures are being felt, and they prevent distance learning, telemedicine and teleworking, among other things. How can our municipalities develop economically if they can't provide their community with adequate communication tools? We are therefore calling on the government to put the interests of its people first by investing massively right now in the construction of high-speed Internet and cellular infrastructure. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): I rise today to pay tribute to Sir Winston Churchill, the former prime minister of Great Britain and one of the greatest leaders history has ever known. In what can only be called a lifetime of service, Churchill's contributions to the Commonwealth and to the world are without equal. During the Second World War he led the allied forces in Europe against the tyranny and fascism of Adolph Hitler and his Nazi regime. When our world was in its darkest hour, Churchill's leadership was a beacon of hope and freedom. I am reminded of something he once said, All the greatest things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honour, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill himself embodied all of these great things and will forever be a symbol of freedom, democracy and hope. Chair, I would like to add my voice to the recognition and celebration of Pride Month, which is celebrated annually during June. However, I know the ongoing pandemic will not stop us from showing our love and support for the LGBTQ+ community. To celebrate Pride Month this year, my office distributed 3,000 pride maple leaf pins across the country; whoever asked received one. Although the majority was sent to constituents in my riding, over 500 pins were sent to the neighbouring ridings of LanarkFrontenacKingston, LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, and HastingsLennox and Addington. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, I am very pleased to take part in today's meeting of this parliamentary committee. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. I agree with him that Canada and Canadians are doing an excellent and difficult job in the fight against coronavirus. As for the economy, our government is there for Canadians, for workers and for businesses, and it will continue to be. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, Canadians know that the government is there to support them. grard deltell: Canadians and Quebeckers also know that the Government of Quebec will table its economic update this week. members and to Canadians what the government is doing for the economy the chair: We return to Mr.Deltell. Chair, it is a real pleasure for me to explain to the minister and everybody in the House of Commons that today the Saskatchewan government will table its economic update. Chair, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to share with Canadians what our government is doing to support workers, businesses and the economy. We see governments acting correctly for their people, except for the Liberal government, which cannot table an economic update. When will the Liberal government table an economic update, which Canadians would like to see? the chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister. Chair, I am delighted to share with the member opposite and with Canadians what we are doing practically that has meaning for Canadians. Everybody is working hard in Canada, and the business community would like to know where the Liberal government is going. I've spoken about the CEBA, and let me point out that more than $26 billion of support has been given through that essential program. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, this is starting to get interesting; the minister is revealing some of these expenses. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I will continue in French by explaining what our government is doing for Canadians and workers the chair: Mr.Deltell. Chair, this is a little bit concerning for all Canadians, because this government cannot say when they will table the economic update, cannot identify how much money they have spent in the last three months and cannot say what is the deficit of Canada. christine normandin (saint-jean, bq): Mr.Chair, there are times when Quebec and the provinces are not just two solitudes, but they get along and speak as one, such as when the time comes to tell the government to mind its own business. On reading section91 of the Constitution Act, 1982, which sets out the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government, nowhere do I find that the federal government must meddle by attaching conditions to health transfers. Will the government do the only thing within its authority, which is to take the cheque, sign it and put it in the mail? hon. We fully understand the importance of federal support for the provinces, especially in our national fight against the coronavirus. I would also like to point out the importance of the support of the Canadian Armed Forces, who are doing an important and excellent job in Quebec and Ontario today, right now. christine normandin: Mr.Chair, I am glad to see that there is recognition of the importance of transferring this money. My question is whether it can be transferred unconditionally; that's what I'm asking. In the past, we have seen that it takes a long time to negotiate conditions with the federal government. We saw it in the case of the Quebec City tramway, and we are still seeing it now in the case of transfers for housing in Quebec, for which there is no agreement and, therefore, no transfer of money. member said in her first question that the only thing the federal government had to do on health care was to sign the cheques. I can't agree because, today, at this time, at the request of the Premier of Quebec, the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today; they're there to save the lives of seniors the chair: We now return to Ms.Normandin. What I'm saying is that, at present, the provinces are unanimously asking that there be no conditions. This is where there should be negotiations so that we can work, among other things, to send money to people living with disabilities, to make sure we fight CERB fraud and to make sure that court time limits are effective in the current crisis. Can the government focus on the issue in order to respect the provinces and transfer money for health care? hon. member that the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today at the request of the Province of Quebec. member will agree with me that being there for Quebec's seniors, that saving the lives of Quebec's seniors, is much more than simply signing cheques. I think we all should thank these people who are working for Canada, for Quebec, and who are doing an important and excellent job. christine normandin: Mr.Chair, I think the Deputy Prime Minister misunderstood me when I was talking about the importance of acting quickly. Negotiations between the government and the provinces take an awfully long time because the federal government decides to place conditions where there shouldn't be any. Right now, the only important thing is to transfer the money quickly so that it can be used in our hospitals and our long-term care facilities, where the need is desperate. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to point out the extent to which the federal government is there to support the provinces, including Quebec. We have increased funding to the provinces and territories by $500million to help them prepare for COVID-19 outbreaks. This funding is in addition to the $40billion that we already provide annually to the provinces and territories. Chair, I thank the member opposite for the extremely important question, and I'll take this opportunity to acknowledge the work that he has done for many years fighting racism in Canada. Chair, I thank the Deputy Prime Minister very much for the response, but there are some specific actions we need to take. When someone is in need of a wellness check or a mental health check, money, financing and support should go to mental health workers and health care workers, not the police. Chair, the member quite rightly began his questions by speaking about systemic racism against indigenous people in Canada, and I would like to speak about that for a moment. Chair, will the Liberal government commit to a review of the use of force as outlined for the RCMP? Will the Liberals commit to that change? hon. Chair, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety had many conversations last week with the RCMP. Will the Prime Minister or the Liberal government commit to something simple and ensure that at the federal level, racial profiling, street checks and carding are expressly prohibited? hon. Chair, sadly, I can't agree that rooting out systemic racism is going to be simple, but I can agree that racial profiling is absolutely inappropriate. jagmeet singh: Well, I'm going to try to get another commitment from the government, because they don't seem able to commit to something as clear as ending racial profiling. We know that millions of Canadians in a couple of weeks are going to be faced with the reality of their CERB ending. These families are worried about how they're going to put food on the table, because they can't return to a job. Will the Liberal government commit today so that those families will have some concrete support, yes or no? hon. Chair, let me be clear, as I was in my previous answer, that our government clearly is opposed to racial profiling. We know that Canadian workers, Canadian families, continue to need the chair: We'll now pause for a short time to allow staff to change within the safety parameters for the COVID-19 virus, and as we resume, we will go to Ms. Chair, the Prime Minister has mandated his ministers, and I quote, to govern in a positive, open and collaborative way. Opposition parties have little opportunity to hold the ruling party to account, private members' bills cannot be tabled and legislation cannot be debated. Trudeau himself, help us understand how all of this fits into his definition of so-called open government? the honourable pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): Well, Mr. Chair, we're here, right? We're here, and the opposition is asking questions. They have more time than before, so I don't know why they're not happy about it. rachael harder: That's like when I'm asking for a full meal and your handing me a few jellybeans and saying, Why aren't you happy with that? Mr. It's like switching a light on and off when it's convenient for the Prime Minister and for the Liberal Party. Trudeau do the right thing, turn the lights on and get back to work for Canadians? hon. Chair, on this side of the House, we're all actually working very hard and we're answering the questions from the opposition. On the Liberal Party website, under the platform commitment, it says that Parliament works best when its members are free to do what they have been elected to do, and that is be the voice for their communities and hold the government to account. The thing is, I think we've reached a balance whereby MPs can come from different places, mostly around Ottawa, and ask questions; but also we can have colleagues from across the country asking questions. rachael harder: Does the Prime Minister value democracy, or does he still look up to China's basic dictatorship? hon. Chair, we're answering all the questions from the opposition, not only from the people in this room, but we're answering the chair: It's back to Ms. I'd like to know from her why it is not important to her that her colleagues participate directly. Trudeau wrote to his ministers and said to them that they continue to raise the bar on openness, effectiveness and transparency. Trudeau has shut it down and has prevented us from being able to do to the good work that Canadians expect us to do. Chair, do they want to talk about shutting down Parliament? How about the time they prorogued Parliament twicenot only once, but twice? The Conservative government shut down Parliament twice. I want to remind honourable members that questions and answers are being given, and we want to hear both sides. rachael harder: In 2014, the leader of the Liberal Party developed a policy resolution entitled Restoring Trust in Canada's Democracy. At the time, the Prime Minister said, Canadians want their Members of Parliament to be effective voices for their communities in Ottawa, and not merely mouthpieces in their communities for an all-too-powerful Prime Minister. Chair, I'd like to know why my colleague wants to shut down the voices of her colleagues who could not speak and could not participate in this room. Chair, how would we vote on private members' bills, for example? As you know, it is not a government vote or a party vote; it's per row. Chair, through youthat we have electronic voting, yes or no? the chair: We'll go on to Mr. Chair, we know that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has champagne tastes and London flats, but it's his champagne mortgages that Canadians are concerned about. Specifically, why did the minister only disclose the complete extent of his personal debt to the Chinese government on June 4 of this year? hon. Chair, as you know, since the minister entered politics, his two mortgages and other liabilities and assets have been fully disclosed to the Ethics Commissioner and placed on the online public registry. We're in the middle of a pandemic here, trying to help Canadians, and the best they can do is ask questions about the chair: We will go back to Mr. garnett genuis: When the minister owes over a million dollars to the Chinese government, people have a right to ask him questions. I still don't know why they ask the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Where is the minister? Why is he hiding? Why won't he answer questions about his personal debt to the Chinese government? hon. What is the impact on the decision-making? Three-quarters of Canadians don't want Huawei involved in our 5G network. Will the minister put the interests of Canadians ahead of the interests of his creditors and say no to Huawei? hon. We have been absolutely clear with allies and with Canadians that we never have and never will compromise Canadians' national interests. Chair, that is not an answer, and it is completely out of step with what our allies have already recognized. Reports are emerging of multiple deadly viruses exported from Winnipeg's microbiology laboratory to the Wuhan Institute of Virology right before scientists were expelled for policy breaches. In spite of that, scientific co-operation between Canadian institutions and the military-affiliated Wuhan Institute of Virology is continuing. Why hasn't the government put in place new guidelines to prevent the export of sensitive pathogens and information to China? hon. Chair, he's right that in 2019 the National Microbiology Laboratory shared lab samples with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The National Microbiology Laboratory routinely shares samples with other labs to help advance the international community's understanding of viruses and the research that is ongoing around those viruses. There are strict protocols in place for these transfers, and these samples were transported according to Canadian laws and regulations. Chair, I think Canadians would be concerned to hear that it's routine to transport viruses to Chinese military-affiliated labs. When Champagne was the parliamentary secretary for finance, the government decided to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, bankrolling Chinese state-controlled development projects in Asia with weak standards in labour, human rights and environment. Will the minister put Canadian taxpayers ahead of his personal creditors and support a pullout from the Communist Party-controlled development bank? hon. Chair, my colleague is trying to connect the dots, and I don't know exactly where he is going from here, but everything is public. I'm sure this exchange will also be available on Google, and the public can draw their own conclusions. We have failures on 5G, failures when it comes to the transport of deadly viruses and failures when it comes to giving over $400 million to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. It's time for the minister to settle his debt with the Communist government and not settle it on the backs of Canadians. michael barrett: Canada's ambassador to the United Nations sent a letter last week to all member states of the UN promising that Canada would consider providing more funding for UNRRA, the same UNRRA that is a front for Hamas, which allows weapons of terror to be stored in schools and provides textbooks that call for the destruction of Israel. Do these Liberals have no shame when it comes to their quest for a seat on the UN Security Council? hon. More than ever, Canada is playing a positive role by being a champion in diversity and inclusion, supporting the global fight against COVID-19, addressing climate change, leading peace and security efforts and helping the most vulnerable. A seat on the Security Council will allow Canada to be a strong voice for a fairer, more inclusive and prosperous the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, I received a letter from Bob Anderson this week, who's advocating for his neighbours like Jean Grevelding, who owns a cottage at Butternut Bay. Of course, our priority is and always has been and always must be the protection of the health and safety of Canadians. That's why we put in place these restrictions for non-essential travel and have required, through the Public Health Agency of Canada, a 14-day quarantine. I don't know the specifics of the person for whom you advocate, but we want to make sure that if they come into Canada, it is for an essential purpose and that they do it safely and respect the quarantine that has been put in place. michael barrett: With nine branches throughout my riding, the Royal Canadian Legion offers a great deal to veterans and rural communities alike. They have been experiencing hardship and a loss of revenue, to the point where they may be forced to shut their doors. The Zone G2 commander and local mayors such as Roger Haley have reached out to me expressing their dire need. Will the government offer support to Legions across the country so they can continue to carry out their vital work for our veterans? hon. Indeed, we're doing everything we can to make sure that we help the Legions and other groups that do so much to help veterans right across the country. michael barrett: On May 21, the minister stated that her team was working as quickly as it could to fill the gaps in CEBA. It has now been three weeks, and many business owners, such as mortgage broker Corinna Smith-Gatcke, are still left in the lurch amid the delays, which are pushing businesses closer to shutting their doors for good. Those businesses can absolutely have access to the loan at their financial institution this Friday, and I would encourage them to go and see their bank or credit union. I want businesses to know that nothing is more important for us than making sure they get the support they need during this difficult time. michael barrett: The County Road 43 expansion project is critical for my riding and the region as a whole. This project will widen the road, increasing safety for the 18,000 motorists who travel the road every day. It's been 334 days since the provincial and local governments announced funding, but there has been nothing from this Liberal government. Today, there is still nothing, and for the last month the minister's team has not even found the time to respond to my request for an update. We're always happy to work with members of Parliament, but they must also work with provinces and territories so that projects are advanced by them to our office. MacAulay read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes? hon. Wagantall, we'll freeze the time so that there's no extra time taken. MacAulay has read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes. I've done everything and worked with him in order to make sure that we bring the proper compensation to veterans the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. cathay wagantall: As a result of that study, are the financial outcomes Canada seeks to provide for ill and injured veterans now clearly defined within the Department of Veterans Affairs? hon. Chair, as the member would know, I am to bring a report to the veterans affairs committee, and there are a number of things done in order to make sure that report is the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. cathay wagantall: Then I would suggest that we get our committee up and going as it should be. lawrence macaulay: Well, of course, lockdown, but just under $90 million that the government put in supplementary estimates to make sure we address the backlog for Veterans Affairs. cathay wagantall: Minister, are Canadian Armed Forces members provided with a copy of this document? hon. In Ombudsman Dalton's recent report, did any one of these three provide the best compensation in all nine scenarios that were studied? hon. lawrence macaulay: Of course, as she knows, there's been a lot of work done in order to make sure that we provide the proper compensation to veterans. cathay wagantall: In the undisclosed settlement of Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says ...Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. lawrence macaulay: I can assure you that anybody is welcome to enter any discussion on compensation of veterans. We're always open to what we can do in order to make sure that we provide appropriate compensation. I don't think the term would be appropriate, but it would provide some compensation to veterans who truly deserve it. Ms.Larouche, did I understand correctly that the interpretation didn't work for both speakers? ms. andranne larouche: The sound didn't allow the interpreters to do their job. the chair: In that case, I would ask both members to maybe put their mike a little bit close to their mouth. cathay wagantall: On a point of order, quite often while I'm trying to speak, there are lots of other voices in the background. the chair: I would ask everyone to please be on mute, as well as for anyone in the chamber to please refrain from speaking loudly. cathay wagantall: You said next question, so we're not going backwards, Chair? the chair: Did we have an answer from Minister MacAulay? No? We'll go to Minister MacAulay to finish up the answer. Then, because of all of the confusion, we'll start at one minute and 45 seconds when we get going again. cathay wagantall: Should I repeat the question, sir? the chair: Please do. In the undisclosed settlement to Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says, Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. Anybody is quite open to indicate whatever they wish in order to make sure we provide as appropriate a compensation as possible. You can never totally compensate veterans truly for what they deserve, but we want to make sure we provide the best compensation possible. cathay wagantall: If that's the case, is Minister MacAulay aware of the practice of red-flagging veterans' files? hon. cathay wagantall: Since the deputy minister has indicated that he runs the department, will the minister ask him for the names of veterans and the dates and the reasons that they are, or have been, red-flagged by VAC? hon. I will do anything I can to make sure that the veterans the chair: We'll go back to Ms. cathay wagantall: Do the most ill and injured still receive from the pension up to $300,000 less for life? hon. Chair, as you know and as the Prime Minister indicated when the pension for life was put in place, it was stated that if anybody receives lessthe Prime Minister himself indicated it quite clearlythat must be adjusted. cathay wagantall: For veterans in similar circumstances, should the date of their application for compensation be a factor in determining whether they're treated equitably? hon. Retired Major Mark Campbell in my riding of Sturgeon RiverParkland lost both legs in the line of duty in Afghanistan. He is an avid sport shooter, but understandably, due to his disability, he is very limited in the kinds of firearms he can use, and all of these firearms have now been banned under the Liberal OIC. My question to the Minister of Public Safety is this: Did their department do a legal analysis and consider the section 15 charter rights of disabled Canadians not to be discriminated against when they passed their OIC? hon. bill blair: Yes, there was a very thorough analysis done by the justice department to ensure that the prohibitions we put in place were, in fact, charter compliant. We have prohibited them, and we believeand this has been echoed by many people across the countrythat this will make Canadians safer. Chair, is the minister aware that the AR-15 is the most popular sporting rifle in Canada, and is he aware that disabled veterans like Major Mark Campbell are unable to participate in the sport of sport shooting because of his OIC? hon. bill blair: I can assure the member that what I am aware of is that the AR-15 and other weapons like them have been used in mass killings in Canada on many occasions, such as at cole Polytechnique, at Dawson College, again at the Quebec mosque and in Moncton. The AR-15s in particular were also used at the terrible tragedy in places like Sandy Hook, where a bunch of kids were killed, so there is no place for the chair: We will go to Mr. Chair, it has been months since the Liberals shut down this Parliament and months since the Minister of Finance should have presented a budget or at least an economic update to Canadians. Well, that didn't stop Stephen Harper and the Conservatives from tabling a budget in the depth of the last great recession. We're working for Canadians and bringing forward supports to make sure that businesses, workers and Canadians can put food on the table and pay their rent. We will continue to support Canadians, and when we have a clear projection to present, we will do that. Chair, the results are in, and businesses aren't happy with the so-called support programs from these Liberals. When is the government going to recognize that their business support plans have been an absolute failure with only a fraction of the billions promised being accessible to businesses? hon. We had the BCAP, which is critically important to providing liquidity to support the SMEs that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We are helping hard-working Canadians, small businesses and large businesses right across the country, but in particular in our energy sector. He tweeted recently to praise the Alberta Carbon Trunk Line and the North West Redwater Partnership refinery in my riding. Can the minister tell us what, if any, support they have given to the innovative carbon capture and sequestration technology in this country? hon. Chair, we see carbon capture and sequestration as an integral part of lowering emissions, making emissions more competitive and making our oil and gas industry more competitive. dane lloyd: I note that the minister couldn't name a single example of government support for carbon capture, utilization and sequestration technology. We have spent a lot of time talking about the COVID-19 pandemic, but Canadians are living with another horrific reality, that being the intensifying opioid overdose epidemic. Reports indicate that in the past four years, 14,000 Canadians have died, and the numbers during COVID-19 have been skyrocketing, with British Columbia seeing a 39% increase this year alone. When is the government going to take this scourge seriously and take action to save the lives of Canadians? hon. Chair, I share the member's deep sadness about the number of lives we've lost to opioid overdose. Our government has been steadily making it easier for people who live with substance use to access medications to treat substance use, such as prescription Suboxone and methadone. We have made it easier to rapidly establish safe injection sites in communities and have supported community-based projects that work with people who are using substances. We need to understand that this is a complex issue, and we need to support people to get the help they need. carol hughes (algomamanitoulinkapuskasing, ndp)): The hon. louise chabot (thrse-de blainville, bq): MadamChair, I will come back to the bill introduced last week. As parliamentarians, we felt like we were watching a very bad play, as I imagine the public did. However, the government did not see fit to negotiate with the opposition parties, even though it is in a minority position. One of the things we proposed was to split the bill so that we could give this support to people with disabilities, but the Conservatives did not want to do that. We came back and asked for time to negotiate and give support to people with disabilities, but the government defeated the motion. We asked that the House be recalled today so that we could pass this part of the bill concerning support for people with disabilities, but we are still in the dark. We know this pandemic has deeply affected the lives and health of all Canadians and has disproportionately affected Canadians with disabilities in particular. From the very beginning, we've taken a disability-inclusive approach to our emergency response to ensure that Canadians with disabilities get the support they need. That is why we announced a one-time payment of $600 for persons with disabilities to address these expenses. We're confident that this measure, along with other investments, will benefit Canadians with disabilities, and we hope to get the support of the other parties very soon. louise chabot: MadamChair, I remind you that this measure wasn't passed because we weren't allowed to do so. We've tried here, in the House, to provide the means to give that support, so I ask again, can the government be counted on to give a response to people with disabilities? hon. It contained assistance for the disabled, of course, but it also contained assistance for our seasonal workers, as well as a number of other measures that the Bloc Qubcois opposed. They refused to debate and, when the question of splitting the bill came up, the Conservatives refused to do that. This bill proposed changes to the wage subsidy program, it was supposed to make the CERB more flexible, it proposed fines for fraudsters and, since there was a little section about a benefit for the disabled, the government took it for granted that we would support it without any negotiations with the parties. However, we set one very important condition: that the Liberal Party must get its hands out of taxpayers' pockets in terms of the wage subsidy. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, as we listen to the Bloc Qubcois members, we might think that they invented peanut butter and apple pie. This bill contained a number of measures that all Quebeckers and all Canadians needed, but the Bloc Qubcois refused to debate it. No, we did not follow the Bloc Qubcois' example in splitting the bill; we had thought of it a long time previously. louise chabot: We asked on a number of occasions for the House to be able to sit starting today to pass the part of the bill dealing with those with disabilities. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, my colleague knows very well that things are not as simple as that. I hope that, one day, we will be able to pass this bill and be able to provide assistance for those living with disabilities. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. Several measures have been implemented for phasing out coal, making polluters pay, providing climate incentives, investing in green technologies and much more, which all together have created a climate plan that is doing more to cut pollution than any other in Canada's history. One area of particular interest is our government's work to protect 25% of Canada's land and 25% of its oceans by 2025. Could the minister update this House on the new conservation projects announced on June 5, World Environment Day, and on how our government is protecting our environment? hon. seamus o'regan: Madam Chair, protecting nature is an important part of how we will address climate change and the very real challenges it presents. That's why on June 5, World Environment Day, our government announced over 60 conservation projects under development across Canada. They'll conserve Canadian nature and biodiversity and protect species at risk, enhance ecological integrity and connectivity, and enhance the size of Canada's vast network of protected areas. Nearly half of these projects are indigenous-led, with the aim of creating indigenous-protected conserved areas. Madam Chair, projects like these move us closer to our goal of protecting 25% of Canada's lands and oceans by 2025. By working together in partnership with the provinces, territories, municipalities, indigenous peoples and Canadians, together we can protect our natural environment for generations to come. Ratansi, since you have 25 seconds left, we will go to the honourable member for Surrey Centre. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): Madam Chair, there are many small and medium-sized businesses in my riding of Surrey Centre. They saw a decrease in business or needed to close their doors completely in order to adhere to public safety measures to manage the spread of COVID-19. These measures helped keep our most vulnerable citizens safe and ensured that our hospital and health care providers did not become overwhelmed with a sharp spike in cases. Thanks to our government's COVID-19 emergency response, many of these businesses have been able to keep their employees and access important liquidity through the Canada emergency business account, which provides loans to small businesses and non-profits, and the Canada emergency wage subsidy, which is helping businesses to keep and rehire their employees while their revenues are down by providing up to 75% of wages for up to 24 weeks. As we begin to reopen the economy and Canadians across the country return to the job market, those benefits will be even more important to help businesses and industries rehire their staff and make important adjustments to align with public health guidelines to gradually increase their operations. Can the minister please update the committee on how many Canadian businesses have taken advantage of CEBA and CEWS since applications for each have been opened? hon. mary ng: Madam Chair, I want to begin by thanking the member for Surrey Centre for all the work he does to support his constituents and small businesses. Canadians across the country need to know our government has been working tirelessly and will continue to work tirelessly on their behalf. This is why we put in place the important programs to help them get through this crisis during this difficult time, programs such as the wage subsidy program. The wage subsidy has helped these businesses keep their employees on the payroll and are now helping in their rehiring as they slowly and safely restart. There are 348,000 businesses being helped with the wage subsidy program, and this means that 2.6 million workers are being helped. Businesses are also being helped through the interest-free $40,000 loan they can access through CEBA to help stay afloat and pay their expenses during this crisis. I'm pleased to inform this House that to date more than 669,000 the acting chair (mrs. Madam Chair, with so many recent reports and videos of police using force, sometimes deadly force, and violence against indigenous and black people in Canada, I've called for the public safety committee to reconvene. If the members agree, will the minister come to the committee and provide concrete answers as to how the government intends to address racism inherent in Canada's law enforcement, and in particular the RCMP? hon. Madam Chair, indigenous people, black Canadians and other racialized people are far too often experiencing systemic racism and disparate outcomes within the entire criminal justice system. In order to respond appropriately, I think it's necessary to begin by acknowledging the lived experience of people who've known bias and discrimination at the hands of the police and our courts and within our prisons. We remain committed to working with all racialized people and all of the members of this House to ensure that we work toward social justice for all Canadians, and I look forward to discussing the member's motion further with him. jack harris: Will the minister and the government commit to facilitating such a meeting of this committee virtually? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, the decisions of the committee are the committee's, so I'm sure that this will be a discussion within the committee, but if called, I will certainly be pleased to come with my officials to provide the committee with whatever support and information it needs to contribute to this very important discussion. jack harris: In light of what we've seen with Chief Adam in Fort McMurray and the RCMP accepting that the actions were reasonable, will the minister commit to a full review of the use of force by the RCMP, in particular the philosophy, tactics and training that is given to RCMP officers in dealing with the public? hon. bill blair: I thank the member and I want to assure him, first of all, that this is work that is ongoing, not just in the RCMP but throughout the police community. May I also take this opportunity, Madam Chair, to say that I think all police training has to begin with one very important principle, and that's the preservation of all life and the respect for all Canadians. We're committed to continuing to work with indigenous communities, racialized communities and with police services and all participants in the criminal justice system to make sure that it is fair for all Canadians. lindsay mathyssen (londonfanshawe, ndp): Madam Chair, we need more justice for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. This government recognizes that systemic racism exists but refuses to collect race-based data that would allow us to quantify and truly address this injustice. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): Madam Chair, our government agrees that it's important that we collect data, and that's exactly why, in the anti-racism secretariat and the anti-racism strategy, there is a commitment to have money go to Statistics Canada to collect race-based data. lindsay mathyssen: Madam Chair, we know that Statistics Canada will start to collect job numbers based on race. This will allow us to identify systemic racism where it is and where we need to ensure a fair and more equal job market for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. Why is this government refusing to follow suit so we can tackle systemic racism everywhere, in every sector? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for her question. She's absolutely correct in her assessment that we need to collect more data, reliable data, data that will help us deal with some of the challenges we're seeing with systemic discrimination, but, more broadly, we want to make sure that we continue to engage with an anti-racism strategy that will allow us to collect that disaggregated data. That is why we allocated $6.2 million to that initiative through Statistics Canada, but we know we must do more and we will do more. lindsay mathyssen: We know that all people are susceptible to catching COVID-19, but health authorities are clear that parts of cities like Montreal and Toronto have been more impacted than others. For black and racialized people living in these cities, this data is a matter of life and death. Will the government collect and share disaggregated data so we can identify and erase systemic racism, yes or no? hon. bardish chagger: Madam Chair, making decisions based on science and evidence is essential for our government. It is exactly the step we will take moving forward and that's why we are making those investments to ensure that data exists. I look forward to continuing to work not only with all ministers, departments and agencies, but all allies and all parties to get this work done. carol hughes): Mr.Blaney, the honourable member for BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, has the floor. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): Thank you, MadamChair. Last week, my plumber told me that, each time Justin Trudeau comes down the steps to make announcements totalling several billion dollars, he feels like someone is rifling through his pockets. My question is simple and goes to the Minister of Finance: where is this money coming from? hon. steven blaney: The answer I would have liked is simple: we are borrowing the money and we are going to have to pay it back one day. That is another Liberal craze: they borrow money, they make campaign promises, and off they go. Under the Conservative government, the Chantier Davie in Lvis had 1,700workers for the supply ship Asterix. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): MadamChair, we are very proud of the Chantier Davie and we completely understand its role in the system. We are going to establish the process for the polar ice-breaker, which is essential for the work of the Coast Guard in northern communities, and we are going to make sure that the acting chair (mrs. There is money in the Canada summer jobs program: in my constituency alone, $150,000has been approved. What is the minister waiting for in order to confirm those positions? In my constituency, and everywhere else in the country, our young people want to work. What is the government waiting for in order to send some cash to the Canada summer jobs program? hon. We are introducing flexibilities into the system to enable employers to be able to hire summer students. The money is available; where is the announcement? MadamChair, our young people are not the only ones who want to work. Let me use Jessie Gito as an example; he has been working at Plate2000 in Saint-Anselme for years. When the time came to renew his work permit, he found out that he has to have some biometric tests. Is the minister going to allow Jessie Gito and the thousands of other temporary foreign workers who want to work to be able to do so until the government biometric testing centres reopen? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, it is important for the honourable member to recognize that we are in the early recovery stage of the pandemic. We will ensure that we support both our students and our temporary foreign workers to make sure we get the recovery right. We've introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that employers are able to take advantage of the program and give opportunities to young people. Then, when the government's biometric testing centres are open again, he will gladly go to one. Young people want to work in agriculture as well, and the minister has told us that the government wants young people working and that their files will be processed as quickly as possible. She wants to create 700positions and she knows that people can fill in an application on a first-come first-served basis. Of those 700positions, how many have been confirmed to date? The good weather has arrived, the corn is starting to grow, and this is the time when farmers need the young workers. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): MadamChair, the program for young workers in agriculture is open. This is a program that is not only intended to provide summer jobs, but also to interest young people in making a career in agriculture. doug shipley (barriespringwateroro-medonte, cpc): Thank you, Chair. Over the course of the pandemic, has the government been using all avenues possible to source much-needed PPE in Canada? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, we have been very clear that we have a made-in-Canada initiative that has engaged companies across the country. Over 700 companies have retooled and scaled up their operations for personal protective equipment to help front-line health care workers. doug shipley: Madam Chair, I need to ask very quickly which ministry and minister are responsible for the sourcing of PPE in Canada. I work with the Minister of Health and the minister for procurement , and we coordinate with the provinces and territories to make sure there are appropriate levels of PPE to help front-line health care workers and essential workers across the country. For over 37 years, it has provided front-line health care workers with an extensive line of PPE and other essential products required when dealing with respiratory illnesses. Southmedic currently employs over 700 people, and it has been recognized as one of Canada's best-managed companies by Deloitte on numerous occasions. Since the beginning of the pandemic, both I and the member for BarrieInnisfil have been attempting to obtain some assistance for Southmedic from the federal government. I received a letter back from the minister dated May 27 indicating that this issue of Southmedic falls under the mandate of the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. When will the federal government reach out and help this great Canadian company and therefore ensure that all front-line workers will have the proper PPE they require? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for his question. Since then, we've seen over 6,000 companies step up to offer solutions and ideas, and over 700 companies have retooled their efforts. I acknowledge that some companies are still engaging with the government, and we'll continue to explore all possible options to make sure we continue to procure the necessary levels of personal protective equipment to protect Canadians and to protect front-line health care workers. Moving on to a different issue, while walking to my office this morning, I stopped at my local small family-run coffee shop and was discussing the current economic situation with the two owners of the establishment. The only thing keeping them hopeful is that soon the public service will start returning to work, and therefore their business will begin to return. Could the government please give us some indication as to what the plans are for returning the civil service back to work safely, and when? hon. This is a very important topic, but I'd like to take the opportunity first to thank our public servants, who have worked very hard in the last few weeks, both personally and professionally. In fact, today is a wonderful day to say that, because today is the start of National Public Service Week. They've been at work for the last few monthsin different circumstances, but they have been working very hard to deliver the services and the support Canadians need and deserve. carol hughes): Next we'll go to the honourable member for SelkirkInterlakeEastman, Mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I want to thank the great men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces for the fantastic job they're doing in Operation LASER, serving on the front lines battling COVID-19. Can the Minister of National Defence give the House an update on exactly where we are at with the number of Canadian Armed Forces members who have been infected with COVID-19? hon. sajjan (minister of national defence): Madam Chair, I want to echo the member opposite's comments in thanking our Canadian Armed Forces members. Currently, we have 13 active cases in the Canadian Armed Forces, but in the long-term care facilities we currently have 50 cases. james bezan: Through you, Chair, Minister Sajjan, does that number of active cases include the active cases that are in long-term care facilities right now in Operation LASER? hon. sajjan: Madam Chair, as I stated, the 50 cases are strictly from the long-term care facilities. Sajjan say how many of those cases in long-term care facilities are active and how many are recovered? hon. What I can say to break it down further is that in Quebec we currently have 36 and in Ontario we have 14. The President of the Treasury Board has said, The Canadian Armed Forces will be present as long as their presence is needed in Quebec. This contradicts what Prime Minister Trudeau is saying, which is that we have a hard deadline of June 26 for the withdrawal of our troops for Operation LASER. We've been in very extensive discussions with the Province of Quebec, with my counterpart Minister Guilbault, and we are working very diligently to ensure we have a sustained, appropriate response to the request from Quebec for assistance. That response will result in a transition from the currently deployed Canadian Armed Forces to the deployment of paid volunteers, trained personnel who will take on the important role of providing services to those Canadians who need our help in Quebec. The Department of National Defence auditors have called out the Liberal government for mismanagement over the $553-billion investment in our Canadian military through the defence policy. This is a $553-billion investment in our armed forces, and only three people are managing it. Could the minister tell us how that is even possible? Is this the reason that over 100 projects are currently behind schedule? hon. sajjan: Madam Chair, first of all, I want to highlight the unprecedented investment that we're making in defence. When it comes to the management of this, it's conducted by me and the minister of procurement . Are we going to see more cuts because you have been unable to actually roll out these dollars? hon. carol hughes): Before I go to the next speaker, I want to remind members that they are to address their questions and comments directly through the chair. david yurdiga (fort mcmurraycold lake, cpc): Madam Chair, the Canada summer jobs program has many challenges. I've seen many indigenous communities in my riding rejected for funding even though they had received funding in previous years. Here are a few examples of communities that were rejected: Beaver Lake Cree Nation, Buffalo Lake Mtis Settlement and the Mtis Nation of Alberta, Region 1. Could the Prime Minister explain why so many indigenous communities have been denied funding from the Canada summer jobs program? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, we recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in our community across the country every year. We're working very hard to help employers adapt to the realities of the COVID-19 pandemic and are supporting young Canadians as they begin to look for summer employment. We are introducing increased flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth, while also providing more supports to employers that deliver essential services to Canadians. Why are so many indigenous communities left out of the Canada summer jobs program? This is very important to my community and to communities throughout the province. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we, of course, value the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in all communities, including indigenous communities in Canada. I will certainly have an off-line conversation with the honourable member, if he so wishes, about a particular issue, but I can assure him that in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had to assist employers to introduce flexibilities the acting chair (mrs. david yurdiga: Madam Chair, in my riding, the City of Cold Lake has been in dispute with the federal government for many years over payment in lieu of taxes. Could the Minister of Public Services and Procurement give me a rough estimate of when I will receive a response from the minister's office to my first letter, from 2017, and my letters from 2018, 2019 and 2020? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will go to the minister, and we will come back with an answer to his question. david yurdiga: How much longer does the minister intend to perpetuate the ongoing PILT dispute, which is in excess of $11 million, with the City of Cold Lake? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, once again, I can assure the honourable member that I will speak with the minister and get an answer to his question. david yurdiga: Well, do you know what? I've been writing letters to the department for many years. When you say you're going to get back to me, I really have a hard time believing that. Will the minister agree to follow the prior recommendations of the dispute advisory panel that were accepted by the minister? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will check with the minister and that she will return to the member in due course. david yurdiga: Madam Chair, the drug Trikafta has been proven to increase the quality of life for 90% of cystic fibrosis patients. Two weeks ago, my office sent a letter to the Minister of Health about the boy in my riding named Cael, who through the special access program is able to get Trikafta in Canada. I requested that the minister use her powers to fast-track Trikafta for commercial use, but I have yet to receive a response back. patty hajdu: Madam Chair, I'm glad to hear that Cael was able to access Trikafta through the special access program. In fact, that program is very helpful for people who are seeking access to medication that's not currently marketed in Canada. As the member opposite knows, Vertex has not applied to market Trikafta in Canada, but we look forward to their application, and I encourage him to write a letter to the manufacturer to also encourage them. I was very troubled to hear that a CBC radio host in the Yukon felt compelled to resign because, as an indigenous person, she could not speak her truth. While we know the Broadcasting Act states that the Canadian broadcasting system should reflect the linguistic duality and multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of indigenous peoples, it would seem there are some challenges. Therefore, does the Minister of Heritage share the concern of some journalists that problems of systemic racism in Canada are still existing within the institution of the CBC, and will the government now acknowledge the need to recognize the jurisdiction of indigenous governments? hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): Thank you, Madame Chair; and I thank the member for this important question. As stated by the Prime Minister on numerous occasions, our government recognizes that systemic racism exists in Canada, and we have made a commitment to do everything we can to combat it in whichever organization of the Canadian government. I understand these issues to be ones that challenge societal norms, that are not politically expedient to address because they can lose you votes, even though addressing them is morally right and a smart thing to do. In the justice system, examples include mandatory minimum penalties, defunding police, and even investing in restorative justice. Surely now these issues are politically less of a consideration than the tragic reality of even more slain indigenous Canadians at the hands of police, or thousands of indigenous people still incarcerated or living in poverty. Will this government please finally commit to the necessary work originally promised in 2015 and repeal in the justice system the vast majority of mandatory minimum penalties, assuring the necessary discretion for judges, and meaningfully invest in restorative justice measures? hon. david lametti: Madame Chair, I thank the honourable member for her question, as well as for her work as Minister of Justice, and indeed my predecessor. This is a time when we recognize systemic over-incarceration of indigenous peoples, of black peoples, in our criminal justice system. This is a time when we need to look at all potential options to reduce what is a shameful overrepresentation in our criminal justice system. Too often racialized peoples and indigenous peoples have experienced prejudice and systemic discrimination in our justice system, and that has to change. Many of the deaths are related to COVID-19 measures that have prevented people from accessing supervised consumption sites, so they are overdosing alone. While the provinces welcomed the federal backing of safe supply exemption back in March, it is to expire in September of 2020. Will the government provide the necessary supports to the province and help support safe supply initiatives in the provinces? hon. patty hajdu: It's been a pleasure to work with the Province of British Columbia on innovative ways to work on the tragic situation of opioid overdose. I remain committed to working with the province and in fact any province that wants to work towards solutions that treat people who use substances with the dignity they deserve. We're working closely with our partners to make sure that we can prevent more lives from being lost. carol hughes): We will go to the honourable member for South OkanaganWest Kootenay, Mr. richard cannings (south okanaganwest kootenay, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. They've been serving great food for 40 years, but now they're struggling, because they don't qualify for the emergency wage subsidy. The new owner can't use a year-to-year comparison to apply for the wage subsidy because he didn't own the restaurant last spring. He is forced to use receipts from January and February, the darkest doldrums of the restaurant year, to compare with the results from May, traditionally one of their best months. When will the government fix this inequity and let Theo's compete and survive? hon. mona fortier: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency wage subsidy is supporting over 2.5 million workers across the country. To help even more businesses support their workers and rehire people as they reopen, our government is extending the CEWS, and we will continue to extend the CEWS for an additional 12 weeks to August 29 to ensure that Canadian workers continue to have the support they need during these very difficult times. By extending eligibility, our government is ensuring that more Canadian workers in more sectors have the support they need. richard cannings: The owner just wants to be able to apply for the wage subsidy, and right now he cannot, and he will not be able to. Canada's forest sector has been declared essential during this pandemic, but it's been hit hard after a very difficult 2019. Despite soft markets and thousands out of work, government support programs have left many Canadian forest product companies behind. In my riding, the pulp mill in Castlegar is closing for the month of July because local sawmills aren't producing enough wood chips. What is the government going to do to finally support Canadian forestry workers and communities? the acting chair (mrs. carol hughes): The time is almost up, but I will allow for the answer from the honourable minister. In fact, in Quebec, partnering with Les Bois Francs DV Inc., we have widened market access to our products and updated technology systems. In Vancouver we're working with FPInnovations to create the indigenous forest sector technical support program. carol hughes): Now we go to the honourable member for SkeenaBulkley Valley, Mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to pick up where my colleague left off, with B.C.'s forest industry. are multiple rounds of mill shutdowns and start-ups, and in some cases this has made it difficult for forestry workers to qualify for EI. My question to the minister is this: Will the minister work to make the EI program more flexible for forestry workers, similar to what this government has done for oil and gas workers? hon. That has been key in the inactive and orphan well program, which we are working on with the provincial governments of Saskatchewan, British Columbia and Alberta. The focus on workers has assured that success, and we will continue to focus on workers in all the industries, particularly our natural resource industry, as they go through this extraordinarily difficult time. taylor bachrach: Madam Chair, reforestation is a very important part of the forest industry in the riding I represent, and people were keenly interested to hear this government's plan to plant two billion trees in the next 10 years. I'm wondering if the minister could tell us how many trees are going to be planted under this program by the end of this season. We are working with forestry associations, the industry and with individual companies to ensure this tree-planting season will be one of the largest the country has ever seen. rhal fortin (rivire-du-nord, bq): MadamChair, last week, the government introduced BillC-17 and the Minister of Justice sent us briefing notes in which he said that it was important to suspend a number of time limits and to extend others, and that the failure to do so could have important repercussions on Canadians, their families, their situations, their finances and their ability to exercise their rights. We have addressed the mandatory time limits in federal legislation as well as certain time limits that courts may not be able to handle. The minister's briefing notes say that, among other things, when it comes to divorcewhich means children are involved people are waiting on custody rights, child support and visitation rights. The minister pointed out that the national security review would require consultations if no decision is made in the prescribed time frame. rhal fortin: MadamChair, what a coincidence, because I beseech my colleague opposite to debate it with us. Last week, the leader of the Bloc Qubcois asked the Liberal government to debate BillC-17 today. Richard Wagner, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who is hardly a dimwit or greenhorn, told us that the justice system needs to be modernized. As recently as this past Saturday in LaPresse, Justice Wagner said that it is essential that the Criminal Code be amended to address the backlog of court proceedings. When will the Liberal government opposite pull up its socks, do its job, govern the federation, sit down with the opposition and discuss the vital matters in BillC-17? hon. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, if I were my colleague, I would be a little embarrassed, because the bill was sent to the Bloc Qubcois several days in advance. When we asked for the support of the Bloc Qubcois and the other parties to debate itwe were not even asking them to vote in favour of the billthey refused. For example, we asked the Liberals to put the money back into the wage subsidy fund and to commit to dip into it no longer. pablo rodriguez: Can my colleague explain to me what the emergency wage subsidy has to do with a bill about justice? This is an absolutely fundamental piece of legislation. rhal fortin: MadamChair, I would like nothing better than to explain it to him, but I must remind him that he is the leader of the party in power, the party that is supposed to govern the country. I am thinking of families, child support, child custody, labour law disputes in Federal Court, marine transportation, interprovincial transportation, aviation, banks, and those with grievances waiting for a Federal Court ruling. The whole system, the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal, everything is on hold because nobody in the government wants to do their job. However, when we asked the Bloc Qubcois if they wanted to debate the bill, they said no, instead of doing what they usually do and saying yes. When the CERB runs out, many workers in my riding of Essex will not have sufficient hours to collect their EI benefits. Because of the shutdown, a mom-to-be who had just returned to work in January, and several hundred of her fellow employees, may not have the 600 hours required for regular or EI parental benefits. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency response benefit has been providing much-needed help to Canadian workers across the country who have stopped working due to COVID-19. We know that there is still a lot of uncertainty for many Canadian workers, and we know that many will be exhausting their benefits in the weeks to come. We will have more to share soon, as early as this week, on our continuing efforts to support Canadian workers and make sure that help is available during this the acting chair (mrs. We will continue to make sure that we make the necessary investments in the EI delivery system and modernize it to continue to meet the acting chair (mrs. mary ng: Madam Chair, today we are seeing small businesses that have been helped, whether it is getting access to the small business loan, which some are also using in the restart as they are safely restarting, or getting help with their payroll, helping them keep their employees the acting chair (mrs. How will the government incentivize workers to return to their jobs when recalled? the acting chair (mrs. mary ng: The Canada emergency wage subsidy is an excellent program to help those employees stay employed and for those employers who are looking at rehiring them right now during this restart process. chris lewis: Madam Chair, many of my constituents are in a committed cross-border relationship and have not been able to see their partners in quite some time. bill blair: Madam Chair, as we said from the outset, we've implemented restrictions at the U.S. border on non-essential travel with a single purpose in mind: to protect the health and safety of Canadians. As the member is aware, just last week we introduced new measures that allow people in family relationships to stay together as long as they commit to the necessary 14-day period of quarantine. chris lewis: Madam Chair, with regard to child care, as our economy continues to open, parents are facing a stark choice: Who will care for their children? What's the plan to provide access to child care so parents can confidently return to work? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, we are of course committed to continuing to make the record investments that we've been making in child care. We're committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces. It sounds as though this government has a desire to force parents to choose between their job and care for their child

The government, led by Hon. Chrystia Freeland, expressed a strong commitment to eliminating barriers to interprovincial trade, a priority that has been discussed with the premiers. Despite the recent focus on the coronavirus, the government has been dedicated to this cause, meeting weekly for over two months. In addition, efforts have been made to improve access to medications for individuals with substance use disorders, including the establishment of safe injection sites and support for community-based projects. Furthermore, a made-in-Canada initiative has successfully engaged companies across the country, leading to the retooling and scaling up of operations for the production of personal protective equipment, which has greatly assisted front-line healthcare workers.

What steps did the Canadian government take to address trade barriers affecting interprovincial trade of essential goods during COVID-19? Additionally, how did the government ensure the safety and well-being of Canadians with disabilities in relation to the budget? Lastly, how did the government acquire the necessary personal protective equipment (PPE)?

We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear? alastair birch: Bore da—bore da, bawb. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure. Nothing to add at this stage, no? sally jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful? sally jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill? sally jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion. huw david: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales. sally jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. [Laughter.] dawn bowden am: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far? huw david: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed. sally jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it? sally jenkins: We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that— dawn bowden am: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections. alastair birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families. dawn bowden am: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it? alastair birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented? sally jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you? huw david: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales. dawn bowden am: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill? huw david: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation. dawn bowden am: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas. sally jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. There have been headlines that have said, 'Is it increased austerity?' That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to. alastair birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements. dawn bowden am: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools? alastair birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also—. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts. lynne neagle am: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked? sally jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: What, if a child is being smacked now? sally jenkins: Yes. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult. sally jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about—we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that 'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.' It also says, 'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition—' so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.' To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted? sally jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families' lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. janet finch-saunders am: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services—I know in my own authority—in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society—we don't want the two to be out of kilter. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC. Are there any comments from anyone else? huw david: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: Yes, where's that line. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in—we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions? sally jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. janet finch-saunders am: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated. lynne neagle am: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on? sally jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It’ll be where the level of harm that’s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services. janet finch-saunders am: I’m pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they’ve been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I’ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: But if you're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: And are they qualified people that are doing this? sally jenkins: Yes, absolutely. huw david: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it’s a multi-agency assessment. janet finch-saunders am: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked? sally jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. lynne neagle am: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover. huw david: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example— sally jenkins: Or prevention. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home, ‘There’s no role for children’s social services’, because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. And that’s a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it’s happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it’s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members. lynne neagle am: And are those services there, Huw? Because I’m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I’m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services. huw david: There’s not enough of those services, and, obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they’re only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we’ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months’ time, and that could escalate. And what I’d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. sally jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it’s not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child. alastair birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority—and it’ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o’clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that. janet finch-saunders am: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services? sally jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. janet finch-saunders am: Are they overstretched at the moment? sally jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted? alastair birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. It says in 'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that's what we're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into 'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure—and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw—that the services are key for families. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base—we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust? alastair birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust—it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually, 'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.' Some of the NFAs—the ones that don't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. The trust in the professionals—it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Siân Gwenllian. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work? sally jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense. sian gwenllian am: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that? huw david: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make—[Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: That's why I'm asking. huw david: I don't know whether that is necessary—I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent. But is it clear who would pay for all of that? huw david: I've suddenly changed my mind—[Laughter.] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers—absolutely. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin. hefin david am: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that? sally jenkins: I don't think so, no. hefin david am: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services—or doesn't? sally jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services—that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that. hefin david am: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. And I agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions. hefin david am: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services? sally jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into—. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable? sally jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Siân— lynne neagle am: Okay. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough? sally jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are. huw david: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced. sian gwenllian am: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that, 'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then, 'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.' We have to get the costs, surely. huw david: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.<doc-sep>Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children. barry hughes: Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children? sian gwenllian am: Yes. barry hughes: We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. sian gwenllian am: Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007. barry hughes: I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that? barry hughes: I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. sian gwenllian am: What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples? barry hughes: If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey? sian gwenllian am: But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. sian gwenllian am: But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying? barry hughes: If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case. lynne neagle am: We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that? barry hughes: Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that? barry hughes: Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other— dawn bowden am: And that would be primarily around the public interest issue. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation? barry hughes: My own personal involvement? dawn bowden am: Or the service's. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance. barry hughes: I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that. dawn bowden am: And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law? barry hughes: Not as of the present day. [Laughter.] dawn bowden am: But you would expect that to be something you would— barry hughes: Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes? barry hughes: They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision? barry hughes: I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that. suzy davies am: It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. sian gwenllian am: My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion? barry hughes: There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. sian gwenllian am: Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point? barry hughes: Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'? barry hughes: I understand your point. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that. barry hughes: And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door? barry hughes: From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. suzy davies am: Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law? barry hughes: I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little— suzy davies am: Sufficient. suzy davies am: So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this? barry hughes: If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. suzy davies am: That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children. lynne neagle am: Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18— barry hughes: Sixteen. barry hughes: I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink lynne neagle am: Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill? barry hughes: Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted. vikki howells am: Thank you, that's really useful, and— lynne neagle am: Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution? barry hughes: Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed. There is a body of law that— suzy davies am: A child can't consent to assault. barry hughes: Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option? barry hughes: We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited? barry hughes: The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction. vikki howells am: And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion? barry hughes: Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales? barry hughes: I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example? barry hughes: It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it. sian gwenllian am: Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident? barry hughes: Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures? barry hughes: I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean. sian gwenllian am: What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence? barry hughes: I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. Is that going to increase if we change the law? barry hughes: There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication. sian gwenllian am: Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law? barry hughes: No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. sian gwenllian am: Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58. sian gwenllian am: And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union. barry hughes: It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.] suzy davies am: [Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that? barry hughes: There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise? barry hughes: No. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.

Barry Hughes raised concerns about unintended consequences, specifically isolated incidences in Wales and performance measure targets. Other concerns included malicious reporting, adherence to the European convention on human rights, low prosecution rates, and a shortage of registered intermediaries. Huw David believed that with careful implementation and adequate resources, there would be no unintended consequences. He mentioned the increasing number of looked-after children in Wales, and Sally Jenkins provided reasons for this trend. Alastair Birch anticipated a greater focus on the UNCRC and emphasized the importance of involving children in discussions that would impact them. This could lead to positive unintended consequences, such as empowering children and revitalizing the voice of the child discourse. The rising number of children in care across England and Wales was attributed to various factors, including increased austerity, awareness of adverse childhood experiences, and understanding the impact of domestic abuse on children. Changes in practice within the judiciary, police service, and preventative services also played a role.

Summarize the group's discussion on the unintended consequences of the Bill, including the causes for the increase in the number of looked-after children.

grad a: So , I think this is gonna be a pretty short meeting because I have four agenda items , three of them were requested by Jane who is not gonna be at the meeting today . Does anyone besides Jane know what the transcription status is ? phd f: sort of , I do , peripherally . phd c: Is that English ? phd f: Well first of all with IBM I got a note from Brian yesterday saying that they finally made the tape for the thing that we sent them a week or week and a half ago phd d: That 's our system . grad a: Ugh ! phd f: and that it 's gone out to the transcribers and hopefully next week we 'll have the transcription back from that . grad a: C can I have a pen ? phd f: Jane seems to be moving right along on the transcriptions from the ICSI side . phd f: Yeah , so , I guess she 's hired some new transcribers phd d: Speaking grad e: Which meetings is she transcribing ? phd f: and well we 've we 've run out of E D Us because a certain number of them are , sort of awaiting to go to IBM . phd d: So does she have transcribers right now who are basically sitting idle because there 's no data back from IBM grad e: So we 're doing some in parallel . phd d: Because I I need to ask Jane whether it 's it would be OK for her , s some of her people to transcribe some of the initial data we got from the SmartKom data collection , which is these short like five or seven minute sessions . phd d: and we want it You know , we need The Again , we we have a similar logistic set - up where we are supposed to send the data to Munich grad a: Right . phd d: And so I wanted to ask Jane if if , you know , maybe one of their transcribers could could do since these are very short , that should really be , professor b: And it 's One session is only like seven professor b: So that should have ma many fewer And it 's also not a bunch of interruptions with people and all that , phd d: Right . And some of it is read speech , so we could give them the the thing that they 're reading professor b: right ? So . phd d: And so , I guess since she 's I was gonna ask her but since she 's not around I maybe I 'll professor b: Yeah , well it certainly seems phd d: if if that 's OK with you to to , you know , get that stuff to ask her for that , then I 'll do that . Yeah , if we 're held up on this other stuff a little bit in order to encompass that , that 's OK because I I , I still have high hopes that the that the IBM pipeline 'll work out for us , so it 's phd d: Yeah . phd f: Oh , yeah , and also related to the transcription stuff , so I 've been trying to keep a web page up to date f showing what the current status is of the trans of all the things we 've collected and what stage each meeting is in , in terms of whether it 's grad a: Can you mail that out to the list ? phd f: - , yeah I will . I That 's the thing that I sent out just to foo people saying can you update these pages grad a: Oh , OK , OK . phd f: and so that 's where I 'm putting it but I 'll I 'll send it out to the list telling people to look at it . So Jane also wanted to talk about participant approval , but I don't really think there 's much to talk about . professor b: You are going to grad a: I 'm gonna send out to the participants , with links to web pages which contain the transcripts and allow them to suggest edits . phd c: So but it 's just transcripts , not the not the audio ? grad a: Nope , they 'll have access to the audio also . phd f: So , the audio that they 're gonna have access to , will that be the uncompressed version ? Or will you have scripts that like uncompress the various pieces and grad a: Oh , that 's a good point . Yeah , it 's it 's probably going to have to be the uncompressed versions because , it takes too long to do random access decompression . Yeah , I was just wondering because we 're running out of the un - backed - up disk space on grad a: Well , that was the other point . phd f: Oh , was that another one ? grad a: Yep , that 's another agenda item . grad a: So , But that is a good point so we 'll get to that , too . I 've added some stuff that indes indexes by the meeting type MR , EDU , et cetera and also by the user ID . The back - end is , going more slowly as I s I think I said before just cuz I 'm not much of a Tcl - TK programmer . So I think Don and I are gonna work on that and and you and I can just talk about it off - line more . grad e: And , also , I was just showing Andreas , I got an X Waves kind of display , and I don't know how much more we can do with it with like the prosodic stuff where we have like stylized pitches and signals and the transcripts on the bottom grad a: Oh , cool . grad e: so , right now it 's just an X Waves and then you have three windows but I don't know , it looked pretty nice and I 'm sure it think it has potential for a little something , grad a: For a demo ? grad e: yeah , for a demo . grad e: So professor b: OK , so again , the issue is For July , the issue 's gonna be what can we fit into a Windows machine , and so on , but grad e: Oh . grad e: Well , we 'll see , phd c: I 've been putting together Transcriber things for Windows so i And I installed it on Dave Gelbart 's PC and it worked just fine . phd d: Really ? So is that Because there 's some people It would be cool if we could get that to work at at SRI phd c: Yeah . phd d: because the grad a: Well Transcriber is Tcl - TK , very generic with Snack , phd d: we have m m We have more Windows machines to run the phd c: Yeah . Yeah but But the problem is the version Transcriber works with , the Snack version , is one point six whatever and that 's not anymore supported . But I just wrote an email to to the author of to the Snack author and he sent me to one point six whatever library grad a: Well I thought it was packaged with Transcriber ? phd c: and so it works . Yeah , but then you can't add our patches and then the the new version is is totally different grad a: Oh . phd c: and you can't you can't access that so you have to install First install Tcl then install Snack and then install the Transcriber thing and then do the patches . Ugh ! phd d: I I wonder if if we should contribute our changes back to the authors so that they maintain those changes along phd c: Yeah . grad a: We have Yeah b it 's just hasn't made it into the release yet . phd f: So did you put the the NT version out on the Meeting Recorder page ? Or phd c: No , I haven't done that yet . professor b: So , can some of the stuff that Don 's talking about somehow fit into this , mean you just have a set of numbers that are associated with the grad e: Yeah . phd c: So grad e: Yeah , it 's basically ASCII files or binary files , whatever representation . Just three different It 's a waveform and just a stylized pitch vector basically so it 's phd d: So So Well grad e: we could do it in Matl - you could do it in a number of different places I 'm sure . phd d: But But it would be cool if the Transcriber interface had like another window for the you know , maybe above the waveform where it would show some arbitrary valued function that is that is you know time synchron ti ti time synchronous with the wavform . Again it 's it 's It 's more Tcl - T grad e: Yeah . grad a: So someone who 's familiar with Tcl - TK has to do it , phd d: Right . grad a: But it it seems to me that I c phd c: And grad a: It doesn't seem like having that real time is that necessary . grad e: What do you mean by real time ? Do you mean like phd f: Like being able to scroll through it and stuff for the demo . phd f: Is that what you mean ? grad a: It just seems to me jus grad e: It would be cool to see it phd f: Yeah . grad e: It would be cool like to see to hear it and see it , phd c: And to hear it . grad a: Sure , but I don't think I You can do all that just statically in phd c: Yeah . grad e: I think it would lose Yeah , y grad a: Just record the audio clip and show an image and I think that 's grad e: Right , right . , no , we 're talking about on the computer and and , I think when we were talking about this before we had littl this little demo meeting , grad e: Right . professor b: we sort of set up a range of different degrees of liveness that you could have and , the more live , the better , but , given the crunch of time , we may have to retreat from it to some extent . So I think For a lot of reasons , I think it would be very nice to have this Transcriber interface be able to show some other interesting signal along with it phd d: But , Anyway , jus just looking for ways that we could actually show what you 're doing , in to people . professor b: Cuz a lot of this stuff , particularly for Communicator , certainly a significant chunk of the things that we waved our arms about th originally had t had to do with prosodics It 'd be nice to show that we can actually get them and see them . So , we have a little bit of time before that becomes critical , but we are like ninety five percent , ninety eight percent on the scratch disks for the expanded meetings . grad a: And , my original intention was like we would just delete them as we needed more space , but unfortunately we 're in the position where we have to deal with all the meeting data all at once , in a lot of different ways . grad a: Yeah , there 're a lot of transcribers , phd c: Yeah . grad a: so all of those need to be expanded , and then people are doing chunking and I want to do , the permission forms , phd f: grad a: so I want those to be live , so there 's a lot of data that has to be around . One of the things I was thinking is we we just got these hundred alright , excuse me ten , SPARC - Blade SUN - Blades . grad a: And so it seems to me we could hang scratch disk on those because they 'll be in the machine room , they 'll be on the fast connection to the rest of the machines . phd f: Well , is there Why not just hang them off of Abbott , is there a grad a: Because there 's no more room in the disk racks on Abbott . phd f: You can put two phd d: Oh you mean you put them inside the pizza boxes for the grad a: Sure . grad a: So you can just go out and buy a PC hard drive and stick it in . professor b: But if Abbott is going to be our disk server it it file server it seems like we would want to get it , a second disk rack or something . What I 'm looking for is where do we s expand the next meeting ? phd c: Yep . professor b: Well , for the next meeting you might be out of luck with those ten , mightn't you ? , you know Dave Johnson is gone for , like , ten days , grad a: Oh , I didn't know he had left already . grad e: How much space do you need for these ? professor b: I don't know what his schedule is . phd f: I I thi grad e: I have I have an eighteen gig drive hanging off of my computer . grad a: Alright ! What 's your computer 's name ? grad e: So , Samosa . grad a: And you 're o you 're offering ? grad e: I 'm not doing anything on it right now until I get new meetings to transcri or that are new transcriptions coming in I really can't do anything . grad e: not that I can't do anything , I jus phd f: I I jus I just gave Thilo some about ten gigs , the last ten gigs of space that there was on on Abbott . And So but that But grad a: Which one was that , X G ? X G ? phd c: XG . phd d: That 's also where we store the The Hub - five training set waveforms , phd c: Oops . grad a: But that won't be getting any bigger , phd d: right ? phd f: No . grad a: will it ? phd f: I don't think that 's on XG . phd d: But I 've also been storing I 've been storing the feature files there and I guess I can s start deleting some because we now know what the best features are grad e: Well phd d: and we won't be using the old ones anymore . phd d: Oh thats XA Oh that 's X phd c: Isn't that XH ? phd f: I th grad a: Not not for long . grad e: I have a lot of space and it 's not it 's n There 's very little Yeah not for long . phd d: Maybe I 'm confu grad e: But it 's not going f phd d: Oh no I 'm sorry . grad a: Yeah , it 's probably Probably only about four gig is on X on your X drive , phd c: So . grad a: but we 'll definitely take it up if you grad e: I th phd d: I think you 're right . It 's XH and D grad e: I think it 's about four or five gig cuz I have four meetings on there , phd d: The b I 'm also using DG I got that confused . grad a: The " more disk space " button ? professor b: Just press Press each meeting saying " we need more disk space " " this week " . professor b: And And how much does each meeting take ? phd f: And it 's about a gig uncompressed . phd c: It 's It 's a little bit more as I usually don't do not uncompress the all of the PZM and the PDA things . So there 's what thirty some gig of just meetings so far ? professor b: So - so So maybe there 's a hundred gig or something . Well we We haven't uncompressed all the meetings , but grad a: I would like to . it 's just a question of figuring out where they should be and hanging them , grad a: Yep . professor b: but But , we could You know , if you want to get four disks , get four disks . Well I sent that message out to , I guess , you and Dave asking for if we could get some disk . phd f: I s I sent this out a a day ago grad a: And put it where ? professor b: Right . phd f: but and Dave didn't respond so I don I don't know how the whole process works . does he just go out and get them and if it 's OK , and grad a: Yep . And just say an - e just ask him that , you know , wha what should you do . And in my answer back was " are you sure you just want one ? " So I think that what you want to do is plan ahead a little bit and figure " well , here 's what we pi figure on doing for the next few months " . So this is a question that 's pretty hard to solve without talking to Dave , phd d: Th - The phd f: I think part of the reason why Dave can't get the the new machines up is because he doesn't have room in the machine room right now . phd d: One One On - One thing to in to t to do when you need to conserve space is phd f: So he has to re - arrange a bunch of stuff . phd d: I bet there are still some old , like , nine gig disks , around and you can probably consolidate them onto larger disks and and you know recover the space . An - and so , he always has a a lot of plans of things that he 's gonna do to make things better in many ways an and runs out of time . And so I think what he 's been concentrating on is the back the back up system , rather than on new disk . Basically , we can easily get one to four disks , you just go out and get four and we 've got the money for it , it 's no big deal . , but the question is where they go , and I don't think we can solve that here , you just have to ask him . grad a: Yeah , it 's just It 's not on the net , so it 's a little awkward phd d: The only phd f: . phd d: What do you mean it 's not on the net ? grad a: It 's not phd c: It 's not bad . grad a: It 's behind lots of fire walls that don't allow any services through except S S phd d: Oh because it 's because it 's an ACIRI machine ? grad a: Yep . grad a: And also on the list is to get it into the normal ICSI net , but Who knows when that will happen ? phd d: But that can't be that hard . phd d: grad a: No , the the problem with that apparently is that they don't currently have a wire running to that back room that goes anywhere near one of the ICSI routers . If there was a person dedicated to doing it they would happen pretty easily but it 's it 's jus every ever everybody everybody has a has grad a: But Dave has to do all of them . But at any rate I think that there 's a there 's a longer term thing and there 's immediate need and I think we need a a conversation with , maybe maybe after after tea or something you and I can go down and and talk to him about it Just say " wha you know , what should we do right now ? " phd f: How long is David gonna be gone ? professor b: eleven days or something ? grad a: Oh my ! professor b: Yeah basically tomorrow and all of the week after . The only oth thing other thing I was gonna add was that , I talked briefly to Mari and we had both been busy with other things so we haven't really connected that much since the last meeting we had here but we agreed that we would have a telephone meeting the Friday after next . And I I I wanted to make it , after the next one of these meetings , so something that we wanna do next meeting is is to put together , a kind of reasonable list for ourselves of what is it , that we 've done . just sort of bulletize o e do do I can I can dream up text but this is basically gonna lead to the annual report . grad a: This is the fifteenth ? So just a week from tomorrow ? professor b: that would grad a: OK . So , we can This So that 's an phd d: Is this gotta be in the morning ? professor b: phd d: Or Because you know I Fridays I have to leave like around two . So if it could be before that would be be professor b: No , no but I I I don't need other folks for the meeting . professor b: Yeah so what I meant was on the me this meeting if I wa something I I I 'm making a major thing in the agenda is I wanna help in getting together a list of what it is that we 've done so I can tell her . professor b: but but , and then the next day , late in the day I 'll be having that that discussion with her . phd d: One thing we in past meetings we had also a you know various variously talked about the work that w was happening sort of on the on the recognition side professor b: And I wondered whether we should maybe have a separate meeting and between you know , whoever 's interested in that because I feel that there 's plenty of stuff to talk about but it would be sort of maybe the wrong place to do it in this meeting if professor b: Think so ? phd d: Well , it 's that It 's just gonna be ver very boring for people who are not you know , sort of really interested in the details of the recognition system . professor b: Well , OK , so how many how many people here would not be interested in in a meeting about recognition ? phd c: Me too . phd d: Well I know Well , Jane an Well you mean in a separate meeting or ha ha talking about it in this grad a: No . professor b: Real grad e: Watch a ball game ? professor b: Yeah , real real real men " Real men do decoding " or something like that . phd d: it it 's sort of when when the talk is about data collection stuff , sometimes I 've you know , I I 'm bored . grad a: The Nod off ? phd d: So it 's I c I can sympathize with them not wanting to i to to be you know If I cou you know this could professor b: It 's cuz y you have a So you need a better developed feminine side . phd d: I 'm professor b: There 's probably gonna be a lot of " bleeps " in this meeting . You know , whatev or whenever we feel like we phd f: Right , I was Why don't we alternate this meeting every other week ? grad a: Or just alternate the focus . grad a: Oh sor phd f: But I do I don't a lot of times lately it seems like we don't really have enough for a full meeting on Meeting Recorder . phd f: So if we could alternate the focus of the meeting grad a: Let 's read digits and go . professor b: And then if we find , you know we 're just not getting enough done , there 's all these topics not coming up , then we can expand into another meeting . Let 's chat about it with Liz and Jane when we get a chance , see what they think and phd d: phd f: and there 's lots of things , you know , details and stuff that would I think people 'd be interested in and I 'd you know , where do we go from here kind of things and So , it would be good . professor b: Yeah , and you 're you 're attending the the front - end meeting as well as the others so you have you have probably one of the best you and I , I guess are the main ones who sort of see the bridge between the two . phd d: I jus So the latest result was that yot I tested the the sort of final version of the PLP configuration on development test data for for this year 's Hub - five test set . phd d: And the recognition performance was exactly , and exactly up to the you know , the first decimal , same as with the Mel Cepstra front - end . , well i there was a little bit of a phd f: Oh ! phd d: i overall . phd d: And then the really nice thing was that if if we combine the two systems we get a one and a half percent improvement . phd d: Which u actually uses the whole N - best list from both systems to mmm , c combine that . professor b: So except the only key difference between the two really is the kind of smoothing at the end which is the auto - regressive versus the cepstral truncation . phd d: And , the phd f: But a percent and a half ? grad a: Yeah , it 's pretty impressive . phd f: That 's phd d: And And so after I told the my colleagues at SRI about that , you know , now they definitely want to , you know , have a Next time we have an evaluation they want to do , you know , basically a at least the system combination . , and , you know , why not ? professor b: Sure , why not ? phd d: . phd d: w what do you mean ? More features in the sense of front - end features or in the sense of just bells and whistles ? grad a: No , front - end features . Let 's , you know , try RASTA and MSG , and phd d: Oh Yeah . That 's the the the There 's one thing you don't want to overdo it because y every front - end You know , if you you know you basically multiply your effort by N , where N is a number of different systems phd f: Oh . So one one compromise would be to only to have the everything up to the point where you generate lattices be basically one system and then after that you rescore your lattices with the multiple systems and combine the results and that 's a fairly painless thing . phd f: Do you think we 'd still get the one and a half phd d: I I think so . Maybe a little less because at that point the error rates are lower and so if You know , maybe it 's only one percent or something but that would still be worthwhile doing . Jus - You know , just wanted to let you know that that 's working out very nicely . phd d: And then we had some results on digits , with We We So this was really really sort of just to get Dave going with his experiments . But as a result , you know , we were sort of wondering why is the Hub - five system doing so well on the digits . phd d: And the reason is basically there 's a whole bunch of read speech data in the Hub - five training set . phd d: And you c And Not all of No it 's actually , digits is only a maybe a fifth of it . professor b: A fifth of it is how much ? phd d: The rest is is read is read TIMIT data and ATIS data and Wall Street Journal and stuff like that . But a fi a fifth is how much ? phd d: A fifth would be maybe two hours something . professor b: Yeah , so that 's actually not that different from the amount of training that there was . phd d: But it definitely helps to have the other read data in there professor b: Oh yeah phd d: because we 're doing professor b: w phd d: You know the error rate is half of what you do if you train only on ti TIMIT not TIMIT TI - digits , professor b: phd d: That 's e professor b: Because because , it was apparent if you put in a bunch more data it would be better , phd d: That was e Right , right . So we only for the Hub - five training , we 're only using a fairly small subset of the Macrophone database . grad a: I could also put in focus condition zero from Hub - four from Broadcast News , which is mostly prepared speech . So , you know that might be useful for the people who train the the digit recognizers to to use something other than TI - digits . They they they experimented for a while with a bunch of different databases with French and Spanish and so forth cuz they 're multilingual tests phd d: professor b: But but yeah certainly if we , If we knew what the structure of what we 're doing there was . professor b: Once we know , then the trainable parts of it it 'd be great to run lots of lots of stuff through . And then I th guess Chuck and I had some discussions about how to proceed with the tandem system and You wanna You wanna see where that stands ? phd f: Well , I 'm phd d: phd f: Yeah , so Andreas brought over the alignments that the SRI system uses . And so I 'm in the process of converting those alignments into label files that we can use to train a new net with . phd d: An - And one side effect of that would be that it 's that the phone set would change . So the MLP would be trained on I think only forty - six or forty - eight phd f: Right . phd d: which is smaller than the than the phone set that that we 've been using so far . phd d: And that that that will probably help , actually , phd f: So it 's a little different ? phd d: because the fewer dimensions e the less trouble probably with the as far as just the , Just You know we want to try things like deltas on the tandem features . And so , you know , fewer dimensions in the phone set would be actually helpful just from a logistics point of view . Although we , it 's not that many fewer and and and we take a KLT anyway so we could phd d: Right . And then we wanted to s just limit it to maybe something on the same order of dimensions as we use in a standard front - end . So that would mean just doing the top I don't know ten or twelve or something of the KLT dimensions . My impression was that when we did that before that had very little he didn't lose very much . phd d: But then And then something Once we have the new M L P trained up , one thing I wanted to try just for the fun of it was to actually run like a standard hybrid system that is based on you know , those features and retrain MLP and also the you know , the dictionary that we use for the Hub - five system . professor b: And the b And the base u starting off with the base of the alignments that you got from i from a pretty decent system . phd d: because you know , compared to what Eric did a while ago , where he trained up , I think , a system based on Broadcast News and then tra retraining it on Switchboard or s and professor b: Yeah . phd d: But he I think he d he didn't he probably didn't use all the training data that was available . We we made some improvements to the dictionary 's to the dictionary about two years ago which resulted in a something like a four percent absolute error rate reduction on Switchboard , which professor b: Well the other thing is , dipping deep into history and into our resource management days , when we were collaborating with SRI before , phd d: professor b: it was I think , it is was a really key starting point for us that we actually got our alignment . professor b: When we were working together we got our initial alignments from Decipher , at the time . Later we got away from it because because once we had decent systems going then it was it was typically better to use our own systems phd f: Yeah . professor b: cuz they were self consistent but but certainly to start off when we were trying to recover from our initial hundred and forty percent error rate . professor b: And we 're not quite that bad with our our Switchboard systems but it was they certainly aren't as good as SRI 's , phd d: OK . phd f: W What is the performance on s the best Switchboard system that we 've done ? Roughly ? professor b: Well , the hybrid system we never got better than about fifty percent error . And it was I think there 's just a whole lot of things that no one ever had time for . we always had a list of a half dozen things that we were gonna do and and a lot of them were pretty simple and we never did . professor b: we never did an never did any adaptation phd d: But that w Even that that number professor b: we never did any phd d: Right . And And that number I think was on Switchboard - one data , right ? Where the error rate now is in the twenties . phd d: So it would be So it would be good t to sort of r re professor b: Yeah . And the other thing that that would help us to evaluate is to see how well the M L P is trained up . phd d: So it 's sort of a sanity check of the M L P outputs before we go ahead and train up the you know , use them as a basis for the tandem system . Not phd f: Should we Should we bother with using the net before doing embedded training ? professor b: But . phd d: But phd f: should should we even use that ? phd d: Oh oh that 's a good question . phd f: Or should I just go straight to phd d: Yeah , we we weren't sure whether it 's worth to just use the alignments from the S R I recognizer or whether to actually go through one or more iterations of embedded training where you realign . You run it ? Keep keep both versions ? See which one 's better ? professor b: yeah . professor b: And while it 's training you may as well test the one you have and see how it did . You know , it 's phd d: But But so I grad a: Sort of given up guessing . phd d: Well but i But in your experience have you seen big improvements in s on some tasks with embedded training ? Or was it sort of small - ish improvements that you got professor b: well . professor b: because we 're coming from , alignments that were achieved with an extremely different system . grad a: Although , we 've done it with When we were combining with the Cambridge recurrent neural net , embedded training made it worse . phd d: So you you started training with outputs from a with alignments that were generated by the Cambridge system ? grad a: Yep . professor b: Oh ! phd d: No it 's weird that it did I 'm sorry . Tha - u we we 've see and wi with the numbers OGI numbers task we 've seen a number of times people doing embedded trainings and things not getting better . phd d: Oh actually it 's not that weird because we have seen We have seen cases where acoustic retraining the acoustic models after some other change made matters worse rather than better . professor b: But I But I would I would suspect that something that that had a very different feature set , for instance they were using pretty diff similar feature sets to us . professor b: I I would expect that something that had a different feature set would would benefit from phd d: professor b: sorry , it was the other thing is that what was in common to the Cambridge system and our system is they both were training posteriors . professor b: So , that 's another pretty big difference grad a: That 's another big difference . professor b: and , one bac at least Back at phd d: You mean with soft targets ? Or ? Sorry , I 'm sor I missed What What 's the key issue here ? professor b: Oh , that both the Cambridge system and our system were were training posteriors . And if we 're we 're coming from alignments coming from the SRI system , it 's a likelihood - based system . You know , there 's diffe different front - end different different , training criterion , I would think that in a that an embedded embedded training would have at least a good shot of improving it some more . I was wondering you know what size net I should Anybody have any intuitions or suggestions ? professor b: how much training data ? phd f: Well , I was gonna start off with the small train set . professor b: And how How many hours is that ? phd f: That 's why I was I I 'm not sure how much that is . phd d: I think that has about Well i you 'd would be gender - dependent training , right ? So So I think it 's that 's about mmm , something like thirty hours . phd f: In the small training set ? grad a: Hello ? phd d: I I think so . I 'll grad a: Excuse me ? phd d: It 's definitely less than a hundred grad a: Alright . It 's it 's th the thing I 'll I 'll think about it a little more phd d: It 's m It 's more than phd f: And a thousand is too small ? professor b: Oh let me think about it , but I think that that th at some point there 's diminishing returns . professor b: but it but but there is diminishing returns and you 're doubling the amount of time . phd d: Remember you 'll have a smaller output layer so there 's gonna be fewer parameters there . phd d: And then professor b: Fifty s Fifty four to forty eight ? grad a: Vast majority is from the input unit . grad a: Right , because you used the context windows and so the input to hidden is much , much larger . professor b: Yeah , so it 's it 'd be way , way less than ten percent of the difference . What am I trying to think of ? phd f: The The net that that we did use already was eight thousand hidden units and that 's the one that Eric trained up . professor b: So , yeah definitely not the one thousand two thousand fr the four thousand will be better and the two thousand will be almost will be faster and almost as good . a four thousand is well within the range that you could benefit from but the two thousand 'd be faster so phd d: Right <doc-sep>three two three four seven six five five three one six two four one six seven seven eight nine zero nine four zero zero three zero one five eight one seven three five three two six eight zero three six two four three zero seven four five zero six nine four seven four eight five seven nine six one five O seven eight O two zero nine six zero four zero zero one two Yeah , you don't actually n need to say the name . grad c: OK , this is Barry Chen and I am reading transcript professor f: That 'll probably be bleeped out . professor f: not that there 's anything defamatory about eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: OK . so here 's what I have for I I was just jotting down things I think th w that we should do today . This is what I have for an agenda so far , We should talk a little bit about the plans for the the field trip next week . a number of us are doing a field trip to OGI And mostly First though about the logistics for it . professor f: in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . If we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . So , and , then , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . And then , anything else anybody has that isn't in that list ? grad d: I was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and I should change it ? professor f: I think that means the battery 's O K . professor f: d do you grad d: Oh OK , so th phd a: Yeah , that 's good . I I it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . this is The reason I did it was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . So the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: I live in , the corner of campus . OK , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at , you know , six thirty . Would it be easier for you if you came here and I drove you ? Yeah ? Yeah , yeah , OK . It 'll take it it it won't be bad traffic that time of day and and phd a: I guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . professor f: And then Martin Luther King to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: Yeah . phd a: Oh , I professor f: So that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . So Great , OK so that 'll It 's , it 's still not going to be really easy but well Particularly for for for Barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we don't need to bring anything particularly except for a pad of paper and So , and , you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: OK . professor f: but you know , don't don't bring a footlocker and we 'll be OK So . I 'll I 'll I 'll I 'll give you my phone number , If I 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: Wake you up . I just , it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than I usually do . , I I I figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting until we talk about wh what 's been going on . phd g: So , it means that , well , it is , a digit French database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and I 've added noise to one part , with the actually the Aurora - two noises . professor f: OK , So the HTK base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? Yeah . professor f: And again , I guess the p the plan is , to then given this What 's the plan again ? phd g: The plan with these data ? professor f: With So So Does i Just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y You just described what you 've been doing . phd g: we actually we want to , mmm , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . So we have the , TI - digit task , the Italian task , the French task and the Finnish task . professor f: Yeah ? phd g: So we have numbers with systems neural networks trained on the task data . And then to have systems with neural networks trained on , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . professor f: So - so we had talked I guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language ID corpus ? phd g: Yeah . professor f: Is that a possibility for that ? phd g: Ye - Yeah , but , these corpus , w w there is a CallHome and a CallFriend also , The CallFriend is for language ind identification . This could be a a problem for Why ? Because , the the SpeechDat databases are not telephone speech . That 's really funny isn't it ? cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . phd g: Yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the Well , you don't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: professor f: Oh I see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's the features are computed locally , and so they aren't necessarily telephone bandwidth , or telephone distortions . phd a: Did you happen to find out anything about the OGI multilingual database ? professor f: Yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what I meant . phd g: Yeah , it 's professor f: I said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an OGI language ID , not the not the , the CallFriend is a is a , LDC w thing , right ? phd g: Yea - Yeah , there are also two other databases . One they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . professor f: But I 'm not sure phd g: So professor f: we ' r e e The bandwidth shouldn't be such an issue right ? Because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? So it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , I 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: Yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gonna be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . professor f: i i I I guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages , in there . Well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have English , Spanish and French , with microphone speech . professor f: So that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: Well . phd g: So w f for for Italian , which is close to Spanish , French and , i i , TI - digits we have both , digits training data and also more general training data . professor f: Well , we also have this Broadcast News that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for English . phd g: Yeah , and perhaps , We were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , so big of a issue . u So that th Well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: depen it depen it depends how you mean " using the net " . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: So , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you can't do that . But if we say , " No , you have to have a different feature set for each language , " I think this is ver gonna be very bad . , in principle , conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . professor f: So , we say " OK , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . " OK ? And so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . professor f: Cuz you don't know who 's gonna call , and you know , so it 's it 's it 's , how do you know what language it is ? Somebody picks up the phone . Someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: Well , I chh professor f: And and he he picks up the ph phd g: Yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: Yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . If it 's th in the phone , but professor f: But that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: It could be , phd g: and , well . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? So that 's that 's , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . But the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the , on the phone . We might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . Now , it 's the OGI , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . And they may very well be right , but I I was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . Maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth , that that that the rest doesn't matter . , the other thing is , this notion of training to which I I guess they 're starting to look at up there , training to something more like articulatory features . , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . professor f: but Yeah , so I don't th I know unfortunately I don't I see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , I think , but I don't think we can ignore it . , tr for instance training on English and testing on Italian , or Or we can train or else , can we train a net on , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: Test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: Yeah , so , there 's there 's , This is complex . So , ultimately , as I was saying , I think it doesn't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . professor f: from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , " OK , so you put in the German and the Finnish . professor f: now , what do you do , when somebody has Portuguese ? " you know ? , and , however , you aren't it isn't actually a constraint in this evaluation . So I would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , " Look , we did do this " . phd g: Mmm ? phd a: And so , ideally , what you 'd wanna do is you 'd wanna run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . phd a: And that way you can say , " Well , " you know , " we 're gonna build it for what we think are the most common ones " , professor f: Yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , " here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . " professor f: Yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are , al although there are thousands of languages , from , the point of view of cellular companies , there aren't . professor f: There 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? So , an and they aren't you know , with the exception of Finnish , which I guess it 's pretty different from most most things . I guess Finnish is a is is a little bit like Hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: I don't know anything about Finnish . professor f: Or is I think well , I kn oh , well I know that H , H , I 'm not a linguist , but I guess Hungarian and Finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former Soviet Union are in this sort of same family . professor f: But they 're just these , you know , countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have I guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: . I re - installed , HTK , the free version , so , everybody 's now using three point O , which is the same version that , OGI is using . And , so we 've been talking about this this , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , the Borge cube thing . , but I I 'm Am I professor f: So are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: Resistance is futile . , the the stuff that we 've been working on with TIMIT , trying to get a , a labels file so we can , train up a train up a net on TIMIT and test , the difference between this net trained on TIMIT and a net trained on digits alone . professor f: And again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: Yeah , yeah . professor f: And and the inputs are PLP and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: Well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , we 've talked about it being , PLP , M F C Cs , J - JRASTA , JRASTA - LDA phd g: . professor f: Yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: Yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: Which is PLP , or something ? grad c: I I haven't I haven't decided on on the initial thing . , so so you take PLP and you you , do it , you you , use HTK with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . professor f: And that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , I guess I 'm I 'm not any worse off . It sounds s I I get I think I get the general idea of it , grad c: Yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: So , when you said that you were getting the labels for TIMIT , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b May Oh , I 'm just I 'm just , transforming them from the , the standard TIMIT transcriptions into into a nice long huge P - file to do training . Were the digits , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: the the digits phd a: Or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: Oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by Dan using , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: I was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: - huh . phd a: I I think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . professor f: Well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: And I was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so I was just wondering if the fact that TIMIT you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from TIMIT might be confuse the results that you get . phd a: Right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: you know , I I I guess I 'm sounding cavalier , but , I think the point is you have , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand hand - marked . It would be another interesting scientific question to ask , " Is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? " phd a: And that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , I think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: Yeah . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: What about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: between languages ? phd a: No , between TIMIT and the the digits . Well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in TIMIT to to fifty - six , the ICSI fifty - six . grad c: And then the digits phonemes , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? Is that right ? phd a: Out of that fifty - six ? phd g: Yep . phd g: But , actually , the issue of phoneti phon phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: Yeah . phd g: because you Well , some phonemes are not , in every languages , and So we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , that includes , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: phd e: SAMPA phone ? For English American English , and the the the language who have more phone are the English . But n for example , in Spain , the Spanish have several phone that d doesn't appear in the E English and we thought to complete . But for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . phd b: Other than the language , is there a reason not to use the TIMIT phone set ? Cuz it 's larger ? As opposed to the ICSI phone set ? grad c: Oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: Yeah . I have professor f: I forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was Eric , afterwards who did that . phd a: Yeah , and I think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd a: I th I think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . professor f: Yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . And the ones that are gone , I think are I think there was they also in TIMIT had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: phd b: Well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: I don't know . professor f: i It 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . What there 's Can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: Yeah , w I th I think that 's a good idea professor f: grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: Yeah , yeah . , do you wanna do it ? professor f: OK , so even even though the meeting recorder doesn't doesn't , and since you 're not running a video camera we won't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: Yeah , I have the wireless . OK , well , professor f: he can't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . So the the training for HTK is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? That there 's some training data and some test data . And , yeah , the training for the HTK models is always , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . So , then I think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . grad c: Yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: And grad c: Yeah . phd a: What about mel cepstrum ? Or is that grad c: Oh , phd a: you don't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: Yeah databases . professor f: Well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: Yeah . at least at least conceptually , you know , it doesn't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: Yeah . phd a: It 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do MFCC with the neural net phd e: Without the phd a: and everything else the same . D Because I think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , mel cepstra , actually . phd a: Is that Was that distributed with Aurora , or ? grad c: One L or two L 's ? phd a: Where did that ? professor f: The newer one . And , oh yeah , and professor f: Is it French French or Belgian French ? There 's a phd g: It 's , French French . Yeah , Herve always insists that Belgian is i is absolutely pure French , has nothing to do with but he says those those those Parisians talk funny . grad c: right ? Spanish Oh , Spanish stories ? phd e: Albayzin is the name . phd a: What about TI - digits ? grad c: TI - digits all these Aurora f d data p data is from is derived from TI - digits . grad c: basically , they they corrupted it with , different kinds of noises at different SNR levels . professor f: y And I think Stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the French also ? phd g: Yeah , we cou we could use grad c: OK . phd b: Did the Aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: They they corrupted it , themselves , phd b: OK . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? Or phd g: Yeah . professor f: I 'm just curious , Carmen , I couldn't tell if you were joking or i Is it is it Mexican Spanish , phd e: No no no no . phd g: Yeah , the No , the French is f yeah , from , Paris , grad c: Oh , from Paris , OK . And , with within the training corporas , we 're , thinking about , training with noise . So , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , Aurora is in incorporating in their , in their training corpus . , I don't think we we 're given the , the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: I think what they were saying was that , for this next test there 's gonna be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . professor f: So , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: So , I guess we can't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . professor f: exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: the testing corporas are , just , the same ones as Aurora testing . grad c: we ' r we 're gonna get German , right ? Ge - At the final test will have German . professor f: Well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be German and Danish , phd g: yeah . professor f: Oh , there 's a there 's Spanish testing in the Aurora ? phd g: not yet , but , yeah , e phd e: Yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: and , well , according to Hynek it will be we will have this at the end of November , or . phd g: Yeah professor f: So that 's , three hundred and forty - three , different systems that are going to be developed . grad d: What a what about noise conditions ? professor f: What ? grad d: w Don't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: Are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: No , I just don't understand . grad c: Well , th , when when I put these testings on there , I 'm assumi professor f: I 'm just kidding . And they 're all they 're all gonna be test tested , with one training of the HTK system . grad d: And do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: no , no , phd e: Also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gonna be , training on the noise files that we do have . professor f: So , Yeah , so I guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? , it 's not totally crazy t , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute PLP , we have MSG , we have JRA you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , won't take a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . professor f: But how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these trainings ? grad c: That 's a good question . , cuz , so , for instance , I think the major advantage of MSG grad c: Oh ! professor f: Yeah , grad c: Och ! professor f: good point . A major advantage of MSG , I see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with PLP . grad c: Now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: Well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . professor f: Yeah , so , you don't wanna , Let 's see , seven choose two would be , twenty - one different combinations . phd b: It 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: Probably phd b: right ? It 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: What ? phd b: right ? grad c: No . Yeah , there 's grad c: That would be professor f: yeah , so PLP and MSG I think we definitely wanna try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd a: When you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . Do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: Well , so , so i it doesn't increase the number of trainings . phd a: No , no , I 'm I 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . Do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: I don't think so . phd b: There 's a computation limit , though , isn't there ? professor f: Yeah , it 's just more compu Excuse me ? phd b: Isn't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for Aurora task ? professor f: Oh yeah , we haven't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: No . What it is is that there 's there 's , it 's just penalty , you know ? That that if you 're using , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gonna have lots of memory . So it 's just that , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . But , yeah , I was just realizing that , actually , it doesn't explode out , It 's not really two to the seventh . But it 's but but i i it doesn't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . Right ? So , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , you can combine their outputs and do the KL transformation and so forth grad c: phd a: But wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: Well , you gotta do the KL transformation , phd g: Eight y professor f: but phd a: Is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: Necessary to put in . Right ? phd g: So , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . professor f: Yeah , so , I guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . professor f: Because the putting them in combination , I think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . But there is the testing also , which implies training , the HTK models phd e: The the model the HTK model . professor f: How long does it take for an , HTK training ? phd g: It 's around six hours , I think . professor f: No , I 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: Ravioli . phd g: Yeah , I I think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the TI - digits test data is about , how many hours ? , th , thirty hours of speech , I think , professor f: It 's a few hours . professor f: so , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . professor f: Right ? So so w we there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . So , I think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot , are we still using P - make ? Is that ? grad c: Oh , I don't know how w how we would P - make this , though . professor f: Well , you have a , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the , a all these combinations , grad c: Yeah . It 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of HTK . How long is it for training of of , the neural net ? grad c: The neural net ? . phd b: How big is the net ? phd e: For Albayzin I trained on neural network , was , one day also . professor f: And I think there there there 's I think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: Is it faster to do it on the SPERT , or ? professor f: don't know . grad c: It 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: Used to be . Or either Adam or or Dan did some testing and they found that the SPERT board 's still still faster . grad c: And the benefits is that , you know , you run out of SPERT and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: You could set up , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on SPERT different SPERT boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . So , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . professor f: So this is Yeah , I kind of like this because what it No grad c: OK . professor f: no , what I like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . You know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . And , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , " Well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort " that 's phd e: Yeah . But if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . So what I like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . And , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a Am I am I interpreting this correctly ? Is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: Mmm . professor f: So so then I think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , you know you know , talk to talk to , Chuck , talk to , Adam , sort out about , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . , and , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and , in in kind o some kind of structured way . , and , you know , when we go to , OGI next week , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . And , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: Mmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we won't be contributing that much . phd b: How big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: for the for nets trained on digits , we have been using , four hundred order hidden units . And , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . , w we 're gonna professor f: Oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y You mean more classes . professor f: Carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? We you haven't talked too much , and phd e: D I begin to work with the Italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the HTK program and the @ @ . And I trained eh , with the Spanish two neural network with PLP and with LogRASTA PLP . professor f: Well , JRASTA has the potential to do better , but it doesn't always . It 's it 's , instead of doing RASTA with a log , you 're doing RASTA with a log - like function that varies depending on a J parameter , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . So , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . It 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: and I think to to to recognize the Italian digits with the neural netw Spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the Spanish digits , the database of Spanish digits . Was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that I have , the Albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . professor f: I 'm sorry , phd e: I 'm sorry , professor f: I have a p I had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: Oh , also that professor f: So , OK , so let 's start over . professor f: So , TI TIMI TIMIT 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the Spanish ? phd e: The Spanish labels ? That was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . Yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , Feacalc , but no , l LabeCut , l LabeCut , but don't doesn't , eh , include the HTK format to convert . I ask e even I ask to Dan Ellis what I can do that , and h they he say me that h he does doesn't any any s any form to to do that . And at the end , I think that with LabeCut I can transfer to ASCII format , and HTK is an ASCII format . And I m do another , one program to put ASCII format of HTK to ase ay ac ASCII format to Exceed professor f: phd e: Actually that was complicated , professor f: So you phd e: but well , I know how we can did that do that . So it 's just usual kind of sometimes say housekeeping , right ? To get these get these things sorted out . professor f: So it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . And then , if if you work on getting the , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . And , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at OGI , so I think that i if What 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . , the first thing was , we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , not not in stages , but more along the the time axis . grad c: je - je - je - je - je check out the results and and go that way . No , I 'm just saying , I 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: - huh . professor f: right ? And so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: Yeah . professor f: And , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , concurrently on different machines , different SPERTs , and so forth , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , " OK , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , " you 'll probably find you can't do it all . professor f: OK , so then at that point , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . professor f: Which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and And , I still think we could do a lot of them . But , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . And I know that , Stephane 's working from an NT machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . We 're over the next year or two , we 're gonna be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: So , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . professor f: So , you you don't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do don't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . Now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what I just said . But the idea is that , suppose you 're working with , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . professor f: Then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . And then that way you you won't have the the network you won't be clogging the network for yourself and others . So , it 's gonna take us It may be too late for this , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , we 're , It 's gonna take us a couple weeks at least to get the , the amount of disk we 're gonna be getting . We 're actually gonna get , I think four more , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , put them on another another disk rack . We ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , primarily between this project and the Meetings Meetings Project . But , we 've put another I guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . But , are you saying So I don't know where you 're Stephane , where you 're doing your computations . If i so , you 're on an NT machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: Yeah , it , Well , to It 's Nutmeg and Mustard , I think , professor f: Do you know these yet ? phd g: I don't know what kind . , are these are these , computational servers , or something ? I 'm I 've been kind of out of it . professor f: Unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . Yeah , I 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said Nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: Mustard . Yeah , so basically , Chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and I 'll be the one who says , " OK , spend the money . Which , n these days , if you 're talking about scratch space , it doesn't increase the , need for backup , and , I think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . Right now it 's phd a: What you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a DF minus K , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd a: and if there is then , professor f: But wasn't it , I think Dave was saying that he preferred that people didn't put stuff in slash - scratch . It 's more putting in d s XA or XB or , phd a: Well , there 's different there , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: Right . So there 's the slash - X - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . And if it 's called " slash - scratch " , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . And so that 's the kind of thing where , like if , OK , if you don't have an NT , but you have a a a Unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , it 'll be called " slash - X - something " , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be " slash - D - something " if it is backed up . And if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called " slash - scratch " . It 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . So , you don't wanna put anything in slash - scratch that you wanna keep around for a long period of time . But if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it doesn't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . So tha that 's why I was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , Mustard and and Nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . Yeah , and we do have , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gonna run over them lots of times so you don't have to go to the network . professor f: Right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where Chuck is putting it all on the on the , file server , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y it is backed up on the other disk . phd a: Yeah , so , one of the things that I need to I 've started looking at , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: Sure . Dan David , put a new , drive onto Abbott , that 's an X disk , which means it 's not backed up . So , I 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a CD - ROM or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . We haven't deleted them off of the slash - DC disk that they 're on right now in Abbott , but we I would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , this new disk also . So , anything that that you don't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gonna need , you probably wanna have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something goes wrong . So far I 've I 've copied a couple of things , but I haven't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . So I I guess I 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . professor f: yeah , I I just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: . So that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , normalization scheme as OGI is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: Yeah , I think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it it 's if we do anything else , we 're gonna end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . So , I guess , yeah , th the other topic I maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . i i i it seems to me that we wanna do is flush out what you put on the board here . Like a s like a slide ? professor f: so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: OK . And , also , if you have sorted out , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gonna do . Anything else that I a a Actually started out this this field trip started off with with , Stephane talking to Hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? , I 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . And and the other the the last topic I had here was , d Dave 's fine offer to to , do something on this . he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . So the question is , " Where where could we , most use Dave 's help ? " phd g: yeah , I was thinking perhaps if , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well it 's , running programs professor f: Yeah . phd g: and , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , speech , noise detection or , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and Which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: I think that would be a I think that 's a big big deal . Because the you know , the thing that Sunil was talking about , with the labels , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? The That that really throws things off . You know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , speech detector , the the , What was it ? What was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: He was running through these models very quickly . professor f: The only problem , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem I have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . But I think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , an an additional , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . But if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of strapped for time We have we we 've , you know , only , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , to to get a lot done . If we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be The very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not , yeah , so that that 's the question . And we don't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd e: Yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between TIMIT and Spanish or something like that . professor f: So what we were just saying is that that , I was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and wasn't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . And so , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . See the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is I really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , or , you know , a so - so job . You can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . But I remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as I recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . So , And th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , even though we 're not we don't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , clearly there 's some limitation to it . So if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . , one I think one of the a lot of people would say , and I think Dan would also , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . Reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . So wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , from from , from TIMIT or something . What what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: Yeah , it would consist in , well , creating the the superset , and , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . professor f: creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: Well , creating the mappings , actually . phd g: Yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: Maybe for the other language because TIMIT have more phone . grad c: There 's , Carmen was talking about this SAMPA thing , and it 's , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , a machine readable IPA , sort of thing , right ? And , they they have a web site that Stephane was showing us that has , has all the English phonemes and their SAMPA correspondent , phoneme , professor f: Yeah . grad c: and then , they have Spanish , they have German , they have all all sorts of languages , mapping mapping to the SAMPA phonemes , which phd e: Yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for Albayzin is n the transcription are of SAMPA the same , how you say , symbol that SAMPA appear . phd b: I was gonna say , does that mean IPA is not really international ? grad c: No , it 's it 's saying phd a: It uses special diacritics and stuff , which you can't do with ASCII characters . professor f: What , Has OGI done anything about this issue ? Do they have Do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: I don't think so . Well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining , phoneme clusters , apparently . phd a: So they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: I think they 've not done it , doing , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , English nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in English nets with , kind of seventeen , I think it was seventeen , broad classes . But Hynek didn't add didn't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . phd g: But professor f: Is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . Right ? , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , our own . Right ? So , if i if if they s , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . And now we 're saying , " Well , how do we handle cross - language ? " And one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: I think that there 's something wrong professor f: OK . What w phd g: or Well , because Well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's OK for , classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , class . Although , you are not using this for the phd g: So , I 'm professor f: You 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: Yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: Yeah . phd a: So you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: Yeah . phd b: Fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? I think , Larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . grad c: So so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: But that 's what I thought they were gonna grad c: right ? professor f: Did they not do that , or ? phd g: I don't think so . Well , professor f: So phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: They 're talking about it , phd g: I d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w Yeah . professor f: Instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take So suppose y you don't really mark arti To really mark articulatory features , you really wanna look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gonna do that . So , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic , articulatory , features . You won't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: So the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: Articulatory features . phd a: But that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: Right . And , I don't know if our software this if the qu versions of the Quicknet that we 're using allows for that . Do you know ? grad c: Allows for ? professor f: Multiple targets being one ? grad c: Oh , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: is that we could we could , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . Now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , combinations . So , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . We could I don't know , if you had the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . phd a: So , if your net is gonna be outputting , a vector of basically of well , it 's gonna have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , I don't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . Eh , eh , what made me think about this is , I was talking with Hynek and he said that there was a guy at A T - andT who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . And because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: This was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . phd a: Well , Hynek said that that , I guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . phd a: So I was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . So that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . professor f: Although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: Yeah . phd a: And then you also don't know what error they 've got on the HTK side . phd b: The soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: To sum up to one . phd b: So you can't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . Is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig No , it 's actually sigmoid - X phd g: or ? Yeah . grad c: for the phd g: So if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's OK ? grad c: You , professor f: Did we just run out of disk , grad c: I think I think apparently , the , professor f: or ? phd b: Why don't you just choose linear ? Right ? grad c: What 's that ? phd b: Linear outputs ? grad c: Linear outputs ? phd b: Isn't that what you 'll want ? grad c: . Right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - X phd b: Oh , you Yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . professor f: So , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? About to be off the air .<doc-sep> , why don't we s again start off with with , Yeah , I 'll get it . And then , given that , Liz and Andreas are gonna be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . , what else ? grad f: professor d: What 's SmartKom ? SmartKom ? grad f: we wanna talk about if w if we wanna add the data to the mar Meeting Recorder corpus . professor d: What what what are we collecting here ? phd e: Data ? grad f: So why don't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: The SmartKom data ? professor d: Yeah , right . I think it was Andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on SRI recognition experiments . professor d: grad f: And then if ti if there 's time I wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so I can wait till next week . I think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wanna maybe focus on when An - Andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: And also the SmartKom thing should b professor d: SmartKom also , Andreas . professor d: So , I think they 'll be inter I 'll be interested in all this , but but , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . Or I guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: Yeah . phd b: maybe I said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: And I and I think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there won't be huge number of of added , phd b: Right . Not not much @ @ grad f: Although Dave basically said that if we wanna do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . phd b: Oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: Yep . So , I think we do need to talk a little bit about Well , we don't need to do it during this meeting . So , naming conventions and things like that , that I 've been trying to keep actually up to date . postdoc a: I 'm sorry , you 've been what ? Showing them ? professor d: OK . Well , maybe , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the IBM transcription status . So , we , we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . Chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes " beep one beep " and then the phrase , and then " beep two beep " and then the phrase . , I think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . grad f: And we did it with the automatic segmentation , and I don't think We ne we didn't look at it in detail . phd b: And grad f: I sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . grad f: And , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . phd b: And the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . phd b: And I think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there weren't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: Yeah , one interesting note is , or problem I dunno if this was just because of how I play it back , I say , SND - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd b: Yeah , and I I dunno if that 's an , artifact of playback phd e: Yeah . But with this new format , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it shouldn't throw them . grad f: Well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , certainly the software shouldn't do that , phd b: Yeah . phd b: I it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: Yeah . phd e: Yeah ? postdoc a: As long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . postdoc a: Well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: So th grad f: " Seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two " . postdoc a: Yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: Yes . Because , we don't we didn't In order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: We can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: Although we could tell them we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say " bracket digit bracket " phd b: huh . That 'd be what I 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . And then I wanted to talk about but as I said I we may not have time what we should do about digits . professor d: Le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that I I know Andreas is less interested in than Liz is , grad f: OK . It 's good grad f: Do we have anything else to say about transcription ? About IBM stuff ? phd b: Brian I I sent bresset sent Brian a message about the meeting and I haven't heard back yet . , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: We 're doing well . postdoc a: And , I 've prepared , a set of five which I 'm which I 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . She 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , the transcription of another transcriber . postdoc a: And , I 've moved on now to what I 'm calling set three . I sort of thought if I do it in sets groups of five , then I can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . postdoc a: And and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , the , DARPA demo , of twenty hours . So , I 'm gonna go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and and that 's that 's what my goal is . Package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . But I guess the other thing is that , that that 's kinda twenty hours ASAP because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . And and I don't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: Yeah , I guess the So the difference if if , if the IBM stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: Again . We 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: And I you know , I 've also d , discovered So with the new transcriber I 'm So , lemme say that my , So , At present , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . And , that sort of , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . Well , I realize that , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and wouldn't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? And so I 've , I , I 've trained the new one , the new the newest one , to , use the visual from the channel that is gonna be transcribed at any given time . Because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that didn't show up in the pre - segmentation . postdoc a: And that 'll be something like I it 's ver it 's interesting . A backchannel , or postdoc a: Once in a while it 's a backchannel . postdoc a: Sometimes it seems to be , similar to the ones that are being picked up . postdoc a: And they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . You just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . And , I think that we 're gonna end up with , better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: Yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . phd b: So they can they can , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: Yeah . So I think that that 's gonna , also eh , you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . grad f: so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . And , Liz and Andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . And , again , I don't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . But so , I was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . What about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: Well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . phd b: Right , Morgan ? professor d: phd b: Is that what you 're ? professor d: Yeah , I 'm I 'm not quite sure what I 'm talking about . And , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: so one option i professor d: Because people make mistakes and stuff . I was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , the SRI recognizer getting one percent word error , would we would we do better ? So , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: But that 's pretty uncommon . grad f: Well , I guess yeah , I guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . I 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's If grad f: But , Well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . You know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gonna transcribe it . professor d: Well grad f: And my my tendency right now is , well , if IBM comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: Yeah , it 's Y you raised a point , kind of , euphemistically but , m maybe it is a serious problem . Ho - what will they do when they go hear " beep seven beep seven three five two " , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: It 's pretty distinct . postdoc a: Well it it well , it 'd be preceded by " I 'm reading transcript so - and - so " ? phd b: Yeah . postdoc a: So , I think if they 're processing it at grad f: it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . grad f: So it sure , there there might be a place where it 's " beep seven beep eight beep eight beep " . But , you know , they they 're they 're gonna macros for inserting the beep marks . We 'll have to see , but I don't think it 's gonna be a problem . Well , I I I dunno , I I think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: We have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . Yeah , I phd i: You mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: Anything else ? Your mike is a little low there . So , You you have to go a little early , right ? At twenty phd i: Well , I can stay till about , three forty . professor d: So there was some In in Adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: Well , yeah . phd i: so , we had a discussion Don and Liz and I had discussion last week about how to proceed with , you know , with Don 's work , phd e: Ch phd i: and and and , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have Thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: So phd i: And , that should be fairly phd e: And how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? Yeah . So , there 's actually phd e: It 's not that phd i: Why do you ask ? grad f: I could phd i: No , actually , NIST has , m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , a time , grad f: Hand ones . phd i: You know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the the , you know , the the th phd b: It does all the work for you . phd i: So , it we just and we use that actually in Hub - five to do the scoring . phd e: So , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: So , we ha Yeah . phd g: Maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: So do phd e: OK . , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , What was the other problem ? Oh ! That Thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , speech detector . phd i: so that we could use , you know there wouldn't be so much hand labelling needed to , to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd i: So , you can you can phd b: It 'll give you a lot more data , too . So , it 's basically s I think , eight meetings or something which which I 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: That won't be perfect the alignments aren't perfect , phd e: Yeah . But phd i: but , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: Yeah . If you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . So , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , speech regions when it 's just like , breath or something like that , phd e: OK . phd g: and I 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain , phd e: Yeah . I 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: Yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . professor d: another one that we had on Adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about SmartKom ? grad f: Right . So , Rob Porzel eh , Porzel ? and the , Porzel and the , SmartKom group are collecting some dialogues . grad f: Basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . And , it involves starting I believe starting with a It 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , speech generation system . And they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . Should this be part of the corpus or not ? And my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . So , I just wanted to understand it , cuz I I 'm , hadn't quite followed this process . So , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions doesn't know that it 's , a machi not a machine ? phd i: Right . phd i: Actually actually , w w the the We do this I dunno who came up with it , but I think it 's a really clever idea . We simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , to a human . grad f: But of course they don't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: So , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: You might wanna try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer isn't up yet postdoc a: . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . " phd b: It 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: " No ! " phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a Windows machine . grad f: Abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: So did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: Yes . phd g: Cuz at first they weren't they weren't sa phd i: Yeah . grad f: and I said , " well that 's silly , if if we 're gonna try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . professor d: S phd e: We wer we just wanted to do phd i: No , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: Right . professor d: grad f: That that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd i: It 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the SmartKom system . phd b: Where does this ? professor d: phd g: Maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: Well , phd e: B phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: Right ? phd e: But but I 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . phd e: What they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: We 've never signed anything that said that we couldn't use anything that we did . professor d: I L look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: professor d: So should we save it ? grad f: And then professor d: Now th Yeah . professor d: anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . But it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . grad f: So it 's It it I guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . So if , at UW they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: I think it 's I I think I th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . phd g: What if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: No , it doesn't . phd g: And then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people won't , postdoc a: Well this professor d: Yeah . So so s so part of the reason that I wanted to bring this up is , do we wanna handle it as a special case or do we wanna fold it in , phd g: and Just give it a title . professor d: I think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user ID , give it session I Ds , let all the tools that handle Meeting Recorder handle it , or do we wanna special case it ? And if we were gonna special case it , who 's gonna do that ? phd e: So . phd i: Well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we don't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: It it it postdoc a: I think phd i: But as far as distributing it , we shouldn't label it as part of this meeting corpus . phd i: We should let it be its own corp postdoc a: Well it 's it well , because grad f: I don't see why not . professor d: It 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . professor d: But I I I have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gonna do , but I don't think i it it doesn't match anything that we 've described about meetings . professor d: Whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at UW and so forth really does . So w so what does that mean for how we are gonna organize things ? postdoc a: . professor d: You can you can Again , as as I think Andreas was saying , if you wanna use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . It 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . Right ? grad f: Yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: It might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: Yeah , I th professor d: Well , I don I wouldn't call reading digits " meetings " . Right ? , we we we were doing grad f: Well , but but , I put it under the same directory tree . professor d: Well grad f: You know , it 's in " user doctor speech data MR " . phd g: Can we just have a directory called , like , " other stuff " ? grad f: Other . My preference is to have a single procedure so that I don't have to think too much about things . professor d: O - You you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: If we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: All I 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gonna tell people that reading digits is meetings . And similarly we 're not gonna tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . But if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: There 's a couple other questions that I have too , professor d: You know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , consent issues ? And the other one is , what about transcription ? Are ? phd e: Transcription is done in Munich . phd i: That 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gonna follow the SmartKom transcription conventions and not the ICSI meeting transcription conventions . But I 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . Do we h do we have , American - born folk , reading German German , pla , place names and so forth ? Is that ? phd e: Yeah . professor d: Heidelberg grad f: So phd i: Exactly grad f: Disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , get some more disk pretty soon . grad f: We 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we shouldn't be on . So , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , seventy - five percent . phd b: Well , when I was looking for space for Thilo , I found one disk that had , I think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: Were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: Those were non - backed - up . The non - backed - up , phd b: I haven't looked to see how much of that we have . So , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: You can I shouldn't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . professor d: Yeah , I me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . professor d: We 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , I guess . phd i: Well , I think I think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , heavily accessed . It 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: It 's the back - up system . phd b: I think I think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . phd b: And we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of Abbott at once . phd i: I think I think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the What about putting the stuff on , like , C - CD - ROM or DVD or something ? grad f: Yeah . The the th phd i: But they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: Yep . grad f: But the r the write once , and the read - writes , don't last . postdoc a: Would it be ? professor d: Year or two ? grad f: Yep . phd i: But if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: Yeah . phd i: and professor d: yeah , all the L grad f: I I don't know many people who do it on CD . , they 're the most fo professor d: LDC - all the LDC distributions are on CD - ROM . grad f: They 're on CD , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . But if you go if you go k phd i: But , you know , we have phd g: But we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: We have all sorts of CD - ROMs from a long time ago . grad f: The the pressed ones last for phd g: usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . grad f: But , the burned ones , when I say two or three years what I 'm saying is that I have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: That 's what I grad f: On the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . But , I I you don't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: So how about ? So so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on DAT or some other medium that isn't risky ? grad f: I think th , we can already put them on tape . Well , if if if you if they last Say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you don't . Can't you just you just put them on ? grad h: So you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on CD as well ? phd i: Yeah . phd b: What 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the C Ds every year . professor d: Well grad f: Well , the C Ds are are an op phd e: Yeah . professor d: You know I would think grad f: So for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: One one thing I don't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , more than once . grad f: Well , regardless Well , first of all there was , a problem with the archive in that I was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they weren't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: grad f: and I was just , doing a minus R star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: But but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something hasn't changed and doesn't need to be backed - up again . professor d: The b I think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would kill that . grad f: Sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . So , what if we buy , what what do they call these , high density ? grad f: Well , why don't you have this have a this conversation with Dave Johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: No , no . Because this is maybe something that we can do without involving Dave , and and , putting more burden on him . How about we buy , one of these high density tape drives ? And we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . And we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we don't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: Actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . What kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: I dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: Is it is ? professor d: Wh The o the one that we have ? grad f: You just run a program to restore them . phd i: But it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: But professor d: No , we have s we Don't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: Something wi th that doesn't that isn't used by the back - up gang ? Don't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: Well they phd b: What kinda tape drive ? professor d: Just in ? Yeah . So your your point is , and I think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . professor d: Yeah , that 's basically what I was gonna say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . professor d: And we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd g: So , who 's gonna do these back - ups ? The people that collect it ? grad f: Well , I 'll talk to Dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: It 's probably gonna n grad f: There 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . That 's what I 'm wondering , if grad f: Well we 're g we 're gonna automate that . phd g: you don't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: No . phd i: Yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . phd i: Yeah , just give a dedi grad f: It we already have it there and it it 's phd i: Well , I 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to Dave , and and and ask him " can I use your tape robot ? " , he will say , " well that 's gonna screw up our back - up operation . He 'll say " if if that means that it 's not gonna be backed - up standardly , great . phd g: What about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . grad f: And then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wanna do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . grad f: NW ? postdoc a: You saying NW archive ? grad f: NW archive . postdoc a: Yep And if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . phd i: Well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: Well , but you can have it NW archive to you can have , a non - backed - up disk NW archived , grad f: Right . phd i: So that so that otherwise you don't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: So , that means we 'll probably wanna convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . professor d: another , thing on the agenda said SRI recognition experiments ? What 's that ? phd i: SRI recognition ? Oh . Chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: N I 'm successfully , increasing the error rate . So , I 'm just playing with , the number of Gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: Well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . It sai because , the meeting before , you said " OK , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent " . phd i: So so , when So I I had I ha grad f: That was a quick response . phd i: So , we had reached the point where phd g: I 'm well rehearsed . phd i: we had reached the point where , on the male portion of the development set , the , or one of the development sets , I should say the , the male error rate with , ICSI PLP features was pretty much identical with , SRI features . phd i: So , phd g: Is there less training data ? phd i: phd g: we don phd i: No , actually there 's more training data . So , so then Oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization didn't actually made things worse . phd i: So So professor d: So but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . And what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the SRI front - end . professor d: but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: Well , So I just d so the one thing that I then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the So , most most Hub - five systems actually band - limit the , at about , thirty - seven hundred , hertz . So , And I 'm now , trying the Oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . So , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . phd i: And you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . phd i: And so the It now helps , if you do it only on the test , and I 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . So But there 's It looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , for the females . phd i: And it is true that the , that the you know , we are using the But it can't be just the VTL , professor d: - huh . phd i: because if you don't do VTL in both systems , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the PLP features . phd g: Well , what 's the standard ? Yeah , so I thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . phd i: that ye overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . We 're looking at the discrepancy between the SRI system and the SRI system when trained with ICSI features . I 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: What 's Are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: You 're This is lemme ask a q more basic que phd g: Cuz professor d: is this , iterative , Baum - Welch training ? phd i: professor d: Or is it Viterbi training ? Or ? phd i: It 's Baum - Welch training . And how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: Well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . , which Eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze And it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . It might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: Or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . professor d: it 's it 's phd i: No , but with Baum - Welch , there shouldn't be an over - fitting issue , really . grad f: Well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: . professor d: It d if you if you remember some years ago Bill Byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: can't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . We can Well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: Yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: Do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: And in each case , ho grad f: What ? professor d: I 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? The , the , language , scaling , acoustic scaling , phd i: I I 'm actually re - optimizing them . And the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , Remember that one ? phd i: Pruning ? professor d: Well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of PLP versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: Pruning in the ? phd b: Yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the PLP . professor d: And so , there 's the question phd i: I you mean did you see this in the SRI system ? phd b: Well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: You can't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . professor d: But , still it 's a question phd i: So professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: Well , yeah . phd b: if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: We prune very conservatively . , as we saw with the meeting data , we could probably tighten the pruning without really So we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: Right ? Here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . Right ? But but but but , let 's suppose just for a second that , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , between the two . professor d: we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: Actually , there is the difference in that . grad f: And what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: Well , now it 's the same . But professor d: Before we i i th with straight PLP , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: Well But professor d: But then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . phd i: Since currently the Feacalc program doesn't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . phd i: And , I did the experiment on the SRI front - end where I tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . So , it 's not I don't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge difference . professor d: So , f i We 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , PLP , and and the reason PLP has been advantageous in , slightly noisy situations is because , PLP does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: So one thing I haven't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . So right now , we 're using a I don't know , forty ? I i it 's it 's eh it 's a f training set that 's about , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . phd i: And the Baum - Welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . phd i: And so , w so , just so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: Now the other que related question , though , is is , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: Th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . So we compute , So , we start with a , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . So we com we do a , you know , w We collect the , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . And then , from there we do , There 's a lot of , actually The way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . And then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: Yeah . This it migh Th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: phd i: Yeah , but professor d: you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though You know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . I 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: But but but , what I 'm what I 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: So , we e w f w For a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . phd i: And with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . phd i: And so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . phd i: So , what I 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . But it it I st still see it as , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: Yeah . professor d: but but I I I th I think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: Yeah . Anyway , I I I should really reserve , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , and until we 've seen the results with the with the VTL in training . At some point you also might wanna take the same thing and try it on , some Broadcast News data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . grad h: ! professor d: So , is there something quick about Absinthe that you ? phd i: With this said . Just what we were talking about before , which is that I ported a Blass library to Absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . grad f: I 'm in the process of doing it for Quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that I was estimating it should be , and I 'm not sure why . But the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll Absinthe will be a good machine . phd i: A few more processors ? How many are you shooting for ? grad f: There 're five now . grad f: And it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: Can you mix t , processors of different speed ? grad f: I don't think so . grad f: We 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , Netfinity server . And , so , these are the demos for the , July , meeting and , DARPA mee grad f: July what ? Early July ? Late July ? professor d: Oh , I think it 's July fifteenth . So , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that But I think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , I think , probably , Adam and and , Chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . Gets our grad f: Which is gonna be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . So , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: Alright . grad f: not between And , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gonna read everyone all at once

The team encountered challenges with the Spanish data not being in the desired HTK format, requiring processing. They also realized that data movement was slowing down their processes and sought faster machines. The team discussed incorporating various linguistic features and computational methods for linguistic analysis. In terms of storage, the current file system was running out of space, particularly for back-up capacity. They considered using the reliable tape system at ICSI but needed to consult the system administrator. The storage disks had arrived, but installation was pending. In the meantime, Grad E offered storage space on their computer. The meetings required substantial space, with 1.5 gigs uncompressed and .5 gigs compressed. The professor advised the team to speak with Dave, the person responsible for managing the organization's storage systems, to find a solution.

Summarize the discussion on data formats, logistics of training models, issues with data storage, storage disks, and computer connections.

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call the meeting to order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. They want us to follow the European Union model, under which the use of animals in cosmetic testing has been banned. Moving forward, they're calling for a ban on the sale and manufacture of animal-tested cosmetics and their ingredients in Canada. I rise today to table e-petition 2466, initiated by a constituent of mine in Stittsville, a beautiful west Ottawa community. Cara is now working tirelessly to amend the small vessel regulations to make it mandatory for children under the age of 14 to wear a life jacket or PFD while they are passengers in or drivers of small vessels covered under parts 2, 3, and 4 of the regulations. the chair: Seeing no further petitions to be presented, we'll continue, and we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): It was revealed yesterday that this government's policy was to ignore fraud. In fact, we've learned that over 200,000cases of suspected fraud have been identified in the benefit applications. Our children and grandchildren are going to pay back billions of dollars that he's borrowing to pay tax cheats. Will the Prime Minister protect taxpayers and immediately begin a review of these 200,000cases of suspected fraud? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): Our priority was to get money out quickly to all Canadians who needed it, and that's exactly what we've done. Chair, Conservatives agree that those who need help should get it, and no one is arguing that they shouldn't, but reports indicate that the Liberals have ordered public servants to turn a blind eye to 200,000 cases of suspected fraud. It's a simple question: Yes or no, did the government instruct any government department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases? right hon. Chair, the priority in this situation was getting money out to the millions of Canadians who needed it as quickly as possible, but of course fraud is unacceptable. That's why we have put safeguards in place to ensure that anyone who received that money fraudulently will have to repay it. Did the government give any kind of instruction to public servants in any department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases, yes or no? right hon. justin trudeau: The instruction to government officials was to get money out to those who needed it as quickly as possible. Chair, it is clear that he can't answer a yes-or-no question, so we can all assume what the answer must be. Small business owners who don't happen to have a CRA payroll number or a business account are ineligible for the government supports. Individuals, owner-operators, and those who are earning $1 more than $1,000 are being told that they don't qualify for the emergency response benefits. Does the Prime Minister think it's fair to tell people who are following all the rules no, while telling government officials to allow fraudulent cases to be processed? right hon. Chair, Canadians well know that this is an unprecedented situation, one in which we had to get help to as many Canadians as possible as quickly as possible. We continue to work very hard to fill gaps for people who should get money but haven't been able to, and, as I said, we have strong measures to counter fraud. Chair, when these programs were first designed, the Prime Minister said that he acknowledged that there were problems and that they would be fixed later. Well, here we are in May, and hundreds of thousands of Canadians are being told no for purely technical and bureaucratic reasons. Will the Prime Minister make the simple changes to allow business owners who don't happen to have a business bank account, who don't happen to have a CRA payroll number and individuals who are ineligible for the emergency response benefit because they've been paid by family members through dividends to qualify, or is he going to continue to let hundreds of thousands of Canadians down during this pandemic? right hon. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, we moved extremely rapidly to get help and support to millions of Canadians. That was the priority, and that's what we've been doing for the past two months. As we've said, we will continue to tweak and improve the programs to make sure that more people who need help will get it. We are working the best we can, as fast as we can, to help those millions of Canadians who need support. Chair, the Prime Minister indicated that he would support Taiwan's inclusion in the WHO only as a non-state observer. Will the Prime Minister support Taiwan's participation as a state observer? the chair: The Right Honourable Prime Minister has 15 seconds or less, please. Chair, we will continue with our one China policy, but we have always advocated Taiwan's meaningful inclusion in international bodies where it makes sense to do so, and that includes at the WHO. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you very much, Mr.Chair. On Friday, students in Quebec and Canada will be able to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit, which is a good thing. This program was necessary, particularly because the number of students who won't be able to get back their jobs from last year is much higher than the number of jobs that might be available to these young people. On April29, the Deputy Prime Minister made a formal commitment to ensure that these programs are accompanied by work incentives for youth and all CESB recipients. So that everyone knows what they're getting into, I'd like to know whether the employment incentives that will accompany the Canada emergency response benefit will be known by Friday. member for understanding the importance of supporting students who, for the most part, won't be able to get the summer jobs they were counting on. That's why we're setting up programs, including Canada summer jobs, but also another program with 76,000new jobs for young people in important sectors, so that young people can also get jobs. We will continue to work with youth and employers to ensure that gaps in the labour market are addressed, while ensuring that youth are well-supported. yves-franois blanchet: That's very interesting, but it doesn't answer my question at all. People in the fishing, tourism and agricultural sectors, as well as municipalities and, from the very beginning, of course, the Government of Quebec, more generally, have expressed fears that job gains will cause people to lose their benefits and discourage them from going to work. In fact, we propose that over the $1,000no-penalty limit, half of the earnings be exempt from penalty. Is this something that could be considered? Since it's been two weeks since the commitment was made and it's urgent, can we act now? The emergency shouldn't last eight months. This is an unprecedented situation, which is why we're working with seasonal industries and the different regions to make sure they have a sufficient workforce in their situation. Students can be part of it, but at the same time we must provide the necessary support for those who can't find a job. That's why we continue to work with the industries involved to ensure that they have a sufficient workforce while we support students. yves-franois blanchet: Unfortunately, the spirit of it doesn't seem to have been understood. I doubt that, even in the best-case scenario, the government will be able to get all the jobs needed in a timely manner for all these young people to decide to go ahead. If they earn less by working than they earn by not working, all the good faith in the world won't solve the problem. Can we make sure that people keep more money in their pockets as they work more? I think we can have a clear answer, given the timeframe. When they apply, they'll all be directed to a job bank that we've set up to make sure they know what jobs are available to get not only the money they need, but also the experience they need for their future, while helping our society in this crisis. Chair, one of the most devastating outcomes of this COVID-19 crisis has been the impact on seniors. Eighty per cent or more of the deaths during COVID-19 have been seniors living in long-term care homes. Despite all this, the Prime Minister has said recently that he doesn't feel it's the federal government's responsibility to find a solution. How can he say to families reeling with loss that it's not the federal government's responsibility to play a role in solving this problem? right hon. Chair, perhaps the fact that the NDP no longer has many seats in Quebec has caused it to forget the importance of respecting the Constitution and the areas of jurisdiction of provincial versus federal governments. We will be there to work with the provinces as they deal with challenges in their long-term care facilities. We are there as a partner, but we, on this side of the House, will always respect the jurisdiction of the provinces and be there to support them in fulfilling those responsibilities. jagmeet singh: Everyone across Canada has just heard this Prime Minister double down on the idea that he doesn't feel it's his responsibility, despite the fact that the Canadian military had to go into long-term care homes. We could also ensure that there's a national care guarantee, working with provinces to ensure that we are meeting the best standards. We could ensure that there's no more profiting off the backs of seniors when it comes to long-term care. justin trudeau: It will come as exactly no surprise to the vast majority of Canadians that the Liberal Party will always stand up for the Constitution of Canada. As I have said from the very beginning of this crisis, we will be there to help the provinces as they manage the challenges they're facing. The federal government does have a role to play, and it is a role to support the provinces in doing the things they need to do during this unprecedented time. jagmeet singh: I am glad to hear the Prime Minister is no longer trying to hide behind jurisdiction. We know that in long-term care homes, the for-profit long-term care homes have been the site of the worst conditions, where the greatest number of seniors have died. Will the Prime Minister join us in committing to remove profit from the long-term care system? Vulnerable seniors should not be subject to the profits of a company willing to cut services, staffing and quality of care instead of ensuring that seniors get the best care possible. justin trudeau: I think it has become clear for all Canadians that we need to improve the care offered to our seniors right across the country. We cannot look at these numbers we are seeing and these tragedies hitting so many families and not want to see us as a country do better. That is why we of course recognize that we will work with other orders of government, particularly the provinces in whose jurisdiction this area rests primarily, to support answering these questions for the long term on how we improve the way Canada supports our elders. jagmeet singh: At the CHSLD Herron in Dorval, 31seniors died in one month. The residents were left without food, dehydrated and without care, and those with COVID-19 symptoms were not isolated from the others. Families pay between $3,000 and $10,000 a month for their loved ones to be at the centre. How can the Prime Minister think that he doesn't have a role to play in finding a solution to this devastating problem? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, all Quebeckers and even all Canadians were stunned to learn of the tragedy at the Dorval CHSLD. We were very happy, as citizens, when the Government of Quebec reacted firmly and asked many questions in connection with this situation. We will support the Government of Quebec in its efforts to find answers and, most importantly, to ensure that, in the long term, the country will better support seniors in all regions. Chair, how many emergency response benefit cheques have been sent to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent? hon. I'd like to start by quickly saying that a total of 7.7million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit, which is absolutely essential for hon. pierre poilievre: How many emergency response benefits have been sent out to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent? hon. jean-yves duclos: Mr.Chair, I see that the pace will allow me to give a little bit of information for each question. As we said at the outset, there will be mechanisms the chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor. jean-yves duclos: We're working very hard to ensure the integrity of the mechanism while at the same time taking important steps to help Canadians. pierre poilievre: How many emergency response benefit cheques have been sent to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent? hon. jean-yves duclos: A total of 7.7million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit, and the agency is ensuring the integrity of the system. pierre poilievre: He's now claiming that it's all 7.7 million? That's crazy. Is 200,000 the correct number of cheques that have been sent out to people whose applications have been red-flagged as fraudulent, yes or no? hon. jean-yves duclos: Mr.Chair, I'm pleased to use the opportunity given to me by the hon. pierre poilievre: How many prisoners have received a Canada emergency response benefit cheque? hon. Some 7.7million Canadians have received emergency assistance in an emergency situation the chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor. pierre poilievre: So now he's claiming that 7 million Canadians are in jail? The question was this: How many prisoners have received a benefit cheque? hon. jean-yves duclos: Mr.Chair, jokes can be made about the plight of Canadians who are suffering tremendously in this crisis, but I'm not here to make the chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor. members that we're talking about an extremely serious situation, a situation that has called into question people's ability to make ends meet, a situation that required emergency measures. pierre poilievre: The question was, how many prisoners have received the cheques? hon. pierre poilievre: The Auditor General says that he's dropping half of his audits because the government refuses to provide him with funding. If the government has enough money to send 200,000 fraudulent applicants emergency cheques, why won't the government give the Auditor General the funding he requested? hon. It gives me the opportunity, in this emergency situation, to talk about the role of institutions, including that of the Auditor General, which we will continue to support because it helps us do things right. pierre poilievre: Then what does the Auditor General have to do to get the money to do his audits? Does he have to file a bunch of fraudulent applications for an emergency response benefit? hon. member well enough, I'm sure that he isn't givingand doesn't want to givethe impression that the Auditor General wants to commit fraud to do his job properly. pierre poilievre: I agree, and that's why he should get the money he needs to do his job. He did twice as many audits under the previous government as he is doing now, but he doesn't have the money to do the audits he needs to do to keep an eye on this government's extraordinary spending. Yes or no, will the government give the Auditor General the funding he has requested so he can get back to doing the same number of audits he did under the much more robust funding of the previous Harper government? the chair: The hon. Chair, the previous government cut funding to the Auditor General and caused the office to lay off dozens of employees. We recognize the important work the Auditor General needs to do, and that's why we increased the funding for the Auditor General. I do have my own chronograph here, so I'll take care of it from this end, but I appreciate the help. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, I fully agree with the Treasury Board President that we aren't here to make jokes, but to set the record straight for Canadians. Yesterday, the National Post reported on the front page that 200,000people had fraudulently used emergency assistance. A few minutes ago, I was reminding people in my region that, in the greater Quebec City area, about 200,000people had received this emergency benefit and that it was not for fraudulent reasons, but because they really needed it. grard deltell: The question is about fraudsters, and I know that there aren't many of them in Quebec City. jean-yves duclos: I know my colleague already knows this, but we announced at the outset that strong and rigorous mechanisms would be put in place quickly to ensure that this delivery would respect the importance of integrity in government. grard deltell: The integrity of the government must be upheld, and this must be done by telling the truth. jean-yves duclos: To set the record straight, the Minister of National Revenue, Ms.Lebouthillier, made it very clear that there was no tolerance for fraud in this system, that all mechanisms would be put in place to ensure that integrity would be respected. grard deltell: The Treasury Board President is one of the few Canadians to find that Ms.Lebouthillier was very clear yesterday. With respect to the Minister of National Revenue, I would point out that the member for RichmondArthabaska asked her a very clear question yesterday, which she was unable to answer. What does a person who has received the full CERB, $2,000, and returns to work this week have to do? Do they have to pay back the amount they aren't entitled to? Do they keep the$2,000? Do they have to wait and include it on their next year's tax return? Which of these three options should the person choose? hon. In fact, that person must contact Service Canada or the Canada Revenue Agency, depending on the system under which he or she received this benefit, and ensure that, in the circumstances that apply to him or her, the decisions and actions taken are appropriate. grard deltell: It's too bad, Mr.Chair, because it's the boss who is in front of me, here in committee. It's good that the citizen calls the public servant, but the public servant's boss is the Treasury Board President. Can he give a clear indication to citizens? What should they do now with the emergency assistance they received with this month's benefit? Should they keep it in full or pay it back now? I'd like a clear answer, please. What's clear here is that each person must make decisions based on his or her own circumstances, and the responsible way to act is to interact with public servants at Service Canada or the Canada Revenue Agency. Could the President of the Treasury Board, in very clear terms, tell the employees answering questions from Canadians what they have to say to those currently receiving the Canada emergency response benefit, but who are actually at work? These are honest people. jean-yves duclos: That is extraordinary, because my colleague focused on two key terms: honesty and hard work. In terms of the honesty of Canadians, in all cases, I am convinced that they will contact the appropriate officials. As for the hard work of those officials, they know what they have to do and they have been doing it in an exemplary way since the crisis began. grard deltell: And yet those good officials, whom I frequently commend on social media for their excellent work, have no clear instructions from their boss. The National Post said that 200,000Canadians have used the emergency assistance fraudulently, to the tune of $1.6billion. jean-yves duclos: I am sure that the honourable member is not questioning the ability of Canada Revenue Agency officers to follow the very clear directive of ensuring that the mechanisms reflect the importance of maintaining the integrity of the Government of Canada during the exceptional circumstances we are experiencing. I've been speaking with many business owners and business associations in my riding, and I'm hearing that they're not getting their orders for cleaning supplies. They do not know how they can possibly reopen if they are not meeting health cleaning standards or accessing PPE for their employees and customers. They are well aware of the issues arising from this government's reliance on Chinese manufacturing rather than building capacity here. What is the government doing to address these issues and ensure wholesale supply companies get products now so that they can distribute them to the businesses that need them? hon. Chair, our government is rapidly and aggressively buying life-saving equipment that Canada needs from a diverse range of suppliers. In terms of other areas of the economy, we are working with our federal and provincial counterparts to make sure that we can do so in collaboration with them. Chair, an ongoing concern I've heard from small business owners is that they are ineligible for CEBA because they don't have a business account. When I brought up this point to small business minister Ng at committee, she said it was the first time that she had heard of this issue and that she would follow up. navdeep bains (mississaugamalton, lib.): Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for her question. We have shown in the past that we're very flexible and nimble in accommodating the needs of businesses. I assure the member opposite that we are looking into this matter and will come forward with a resolution in a timely manner. Chair, I just read another email from a small business owner this morning who has been let down by the government. He chose to pay off debts instead of paying himself a wage; therefore, he's ineligible for CEBA, for that loan. Owner-operators have been eliminated from participating in government programs because they did not put themselves on the payroll. With regard to the program that she highlighted, we have shown flexibility in the eligibility criteria by decreasing the payroll threshold for individual companies that want to apply for this loan to $20,000 versus $50,000, and the upper limit has gone to $1.5 million versus $1 million. tracy gray: This government has left Canadian craft breweries out to dry, like the hops in their beer. On April 24, the Canadian Craft Brewers Association released a report on the effects of COVID-19 on the Canadian craft brewing industry. The report states that 38% of craft brewers did not qualify for the Canadian emergency wage subsidy in March, and 53% were either not sure or predicted that they would not qualify in April. Many a brew pub, like BNA in my riding, due to higher payrolls are also not eligible for the CEBA loan. Five per cent of these breweries have already closed permanently, and others are on the verge of doing so. navdeep bains: When it comes to the Canada emergency wage subsidy, we have demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness. The eligibility criteria to compare to the first two months of this year now also compare to the previous year as well. tracy gray: In my constituency, Okanagan fruit production is a huge industry, and many apple orchardists have brought concerns to me regarding high costs, apples from last season selling below cost, the CUSMA agreement not helping the industy, and low-priced Washington apples flooding our market. The BC Fruit Growers' Association has called the government announcements of measures for agriculture underwhelming. I questioned Minister Bibeau in the House a couple of months ago, and at the time she did not have an answer. marie-claude bibeau (comptonstanstead, lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. We began with measures to assist small, medium and large companies, and we are now going progressively sector by sector. Last week, we announced additional funding for agriculture the chair: We'll now go on to Mr. More than half of the respondents have not qualified for any of the programs, and the vast majority of them have said their businesses will not last more than another month. Will the government expand the eligibility for some of these programs to include sole proprietorships, or is the government still looking at refunding the GST paid by some of the businesses over the last year? hon. Chair, I want to highlight the fact that we have issued 590,000 loans through the CEBA account. Charlebois said that we are on the precipice of losing 15% of our farms and that 30,000 farm families are at risk of bankruptcy. Does the minister know the impact that losing 30,000 family farms will have on our food security and the price of groceries on the store shelves? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, the agriculture and agri-food sector is extremely important. I understand that producers would like the programs to be more generous, and we are ready to do more, but they first need to use those programs. Chair, business risk management programs don't apply to every single stakeholder and the programs are not working for the producers. When the minister renounced the AgriRecovery program, funds were set aside for cattle and pork producers. We added $77.5million to the program helping the processing sector and $50million on two occasions for our pork and beef producers under the AgriRecovery program. In recent years, an average of $15million have gone out of this program, whereas this year the chair: Mr. Chair, it is not new money; it has been budgeted year after year and it's budgeted again for next year. The cattlemen said that the set-aside funds that the minister is talking about are already gone and did not last even two weeks. If this government isn't assisting Canadian farmers, is the government's food policy to rely on food imported from foreign countries to feed Canadian families ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, the fund to assist our beef producers cannot have already disappeared because the criteria will be unveiled in the coming days. I can assure you that we are working as efficiently as possible so that the program can be rolled out and the money can be channelled to our beef and pork producers. Chair, producers across this country have said that an exemption from the carbon tax would help them greatly during this pandemic. When I asked the minister about any data that was available for the impact the carbon tax had on agriculture, the answer I got was that this information was secret. My staff and I looked everywhere last night, as did journalists, and that information could not be found. john barlow: If that data is available, then the minister must know the financial impacts that the carbon tax has on Canadian farmers. With the information that the minister apparently has, does she agree with the Prime Minister that Canadian farmers are much better off financially by paying the carbon tax? hon. Each organization analyzes different assumptions, methodologies and geographic areas, so the results give a broad range of estimated impacts. According to the organization that has provided information, in 2019, the estimated impacts of a $20-per-tonne price on pollution due to grain drying ranged the chair: We'll go back to Mr. john barlow: Does the minister agree with the Prime Minister that farmers are financially better off paying the carbon tax? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, the price on pollution is an extremely important measure for our economy in general and for our transition to a greener economy. We have already provided various exemptions to the agriculture sector: for gasoline, for the access card and for the greenhouse sector. pat kelly (calgary rocky ridge, cpc): Will the government fully fund the Office of the Auditor General? hon. jean-yves duclos: To continue my answer, and as the Prime Minister said just a moment ago, that has led to the hiring of 38 new staff members. That's great to hear, because they are doing even better than they used to before we came into power. pat kelly: No previous auditor general in Canadian history has ever had to tell a parliamentary committee that they had insufficient funds to do their job. jean-yves duclos: I'm glad again to be given the ability to say how important the work of the Auditor General is. pat kelly: Sadly, Michael Ferguson passed away in 2019, yet the government has refused to name a permanent replacement. Chair, this is another wonderful opportunity to remind all members of this House of the importance of these institutions. When we face these tragic deaths, we of course are very sad of the passing of the people, and we work the chair: Go ahead, Mr. pat kelly: Yesterday the Parliamentary Budget Officer said that Canada's debt could reach $1 trillion this year. Speaker, we remain committed to doing, as we've said, whatever it takes to support Canadians through this challenging time. We think this is extremely important, and we will continue to focus on the well-being of all Canadians. pat kelly: What is the estimated annual debt servicing cost of the aid measures announced so far? hon. Chair, there will be an opportunity for us to give a full outline of the costs and benefits of our measures, and we will do that when we have the ability to have the chair: Mr. Speaker, Canada came into this crisis with a very strong fiscal position, and of course we will experience challenges as we move forward, but we believe that we should experience those challenges as we support Canadians. pat kelly: What would the effect of a downgrade be on Canada's debt servicing costs? hon. Chair, we will continue to focus on how we can support Canadians and Canadian businesses as we get through this challenge. pat kelly: How many private sector bank loans have been funded for small and medium-sized businesses under the business credit availability program? hon. Chair, as the information on the business credit availability program becomes available, we are being fully transparent with the finance committee and with this House. Chair, I'm not in the habit of memorizing every single number available to us, but what I can confirm is that we will be transparent with this House on the numbers as they become available. pat kelly: Does the minister know the dollar amount or the approximate dollar amount so far lent and guaranteed by Export Development Canada? hon. Chair, one number that would probably be helpful for people to understand is that we've now had over 550,000 approved loans under the CEBA program, representing over 20 billion dollars' worth of money that's actually the chair: Mr. pat kelly: Will the government fix the CEBA program to include businesses that pay owner-operators through dividends? hon. Chair, I think the language fix is incorrect, for more than 500,000 businesses have received this loan. pat kelly: Will the government fix CEBA to cover small businesses that hire day labourers or subcontractors? the chair: The honourable minister. We will endeavour to make sure that more Canadians have access to this program, particularly small businesses in rural and remote communities. pat kelly: Will the government fix CEBA to cover business owners who use personal instead of business chequing accounts to operate their business? hon. Chair, I want to highlight the fact that this has been a very positive program and well received by many small businesses. Over 590,000 small business loans have been issued, and that's a testament to the design of the program. Last week, on Friday, Statistics Canada was to release labour force survey data at 8:30 a.m. eastern time, one of the most important and market-moving indicators of the month, but someone in the government leaked that information ahead of time, almost 45 minutes ahead of time, and exclusively to Bloomberg terminal users on Wall Street and on Bay Street, who pay thousands of dollars a month for those terminals. Moving markets, the Canadian dollar moved eight basis points in that short period of time and billions were made or lost on the market. Section 34 of the Statistics Act makes it a criminal offence for someone to leak information that might influence stock, bond or currency markets. Has the government notified the RCMP about what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act? the chair: The honourable minister. That is why we're going to make sure that a proper and thorough examination is done, and going forward we want to make sure that no such breach or leak occurs. Chair, Statistics Canada said that staffers and ministers' offices, including the Prime Minister's office, the finance minister's office, the employment minister's office and the industry minister's office, would have received this secret information no earlier than 2 p.m. navdeep bains: I'd like to remind the honourable colleague that our government has supported Statistics Canada. The member opposite knows that we'll be fully co-operative in any such investigation into any leak. Chair, the member opposite knows full well that there are proper processes and protocols in place when it comes to such sensitive matters, and we will ensure that those processes and protocols the chair: Mr. Chair, I hope there is no double standard for ministers' offices and the public service, because it was only about 13 years ago that a public servant was criminally charged and convicted for using top secret information in the markets. I hope that in this investigation, and in the release of the information concerning this investigation, ministers' staffers aren't held to a different standard than the public service has been held to. Our four allies have been telling us for years that one of the top two or three threats that democracies are facing is declining public confidence in our key institutions. Democracies have been blindsided by misinformation, disinformation and cyber-attacks, and now we are being blindsided by the misuse of information by this very government. The government's own national statistics-gathering agency doesn't trust this cabinet or this government, and that's why they announced several days ago that they would suspend the pre-release of information to the cabinet. I'd like to remind my honourable colleague that we are the government that brought forward legislation to strengthen the independence of Statistics Canada. We're the government that brought forward measures to make sure they have additional monies for conducting the proper mandatory long-form census as well. When it comes to the leak that the member opposite is talking about, we're not going to prejudge the outcome. Chair, I hope the government will call the RCMP and notify them about what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act, because it was a previous Liberal minister who himself was subject to a lot of misinformation and was a target of improper allegations about his office's use of information that leaked about the income trust changes that the previous Liberal government had brought in. The RCMP began an investigation and, in the course of the investigation, they charged a public servant who was ultimately convicted of breaching that secret information. I hope the minister holds his office and the offices of his cabinet colleagues to the same standard, calls in the RCMP and makes them aware of what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act. Chair? the chair: We're over the time, but I'm allowing 30 seconds so we can get a full hon. I want to remind the member opposite that we're not going to prejudge any outcome at this stage. Again, it is our government that has been consistently supporting Statistics Canada in its work through the previous years. When there's less than a minute left and the question goes over half the time left over, I'll just indicate to the person asking the question that we've reached the limit so that the other side can answer with the same amount of time and we have a fair playing field. First, let me remind you that, on March12, the government announced a first series of measures of about $1billion to adapt to what was at the time the beginning of the coronavirus crisis, including $500million in transfers to the provinces, with about $100million going to Quebec. Since that time, the commitments from the government have reached very probably around $300billion, making those first $500 million pale by comparison. In that context, and given what I heard the Prime Minister say a little earlier about respecting the areas of jurisdiction of the provinces, and of Quebec, can we expect a speedy increase in health transfers to Quebec and the provinces, an increase that would be permanent, and, of course, without conditions? the chair: The honourable minister has the floor. We continue to work with provinces and territories on a regular basis to make sure they're supported not just in the outbreak of this pandemic, but in the increased cost overall to health care across the country. Our investments have included investments for mental health, for home care and for the additional expenses that provinces and territories face as a result of an aging population. yves-franois blanchet: With all respect, Mr.Chair, that is a little disappointing. While the leader of the NDP wants the federal government to interfere massively in provincial jurisdiction over health, the Prime Minister replies in English. That is perfectly legitimate in this Parliament, but his reply in English is, no, the government absolutely respects provincial jurisdiction. That made me happy for a brief moment, and I am asking the Prime Minister, without wanting to interrupt his precious reading, to please repeat in French was he said just now in English, that he absolutely respects provincial jurisdiction over health, which is exclusive. Chair, just as I respect the member opposite's right to speak in his first language, I hope that he understands that I am trying to learn our second official language in a high-pressure situation, and it often creates anxiety. I will tell him, though, that we fully respect the jurisdiction of provinces and territories to address the needs of their constituents and their members, and we work very closely with Quebec and with all provinces and territories to make sure that the funds we transfer from the federal government can be utilized in a way that best meets the needs of their constituents. Let me proceed with a short and simple question: is health in the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces in the current crisis management situation? hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): Mr.Chair, I would like to tell my colleague that we have no first or second official language. yves-franois blanchet: Hearing that we have no first or second official language is better already. Let us take it one step further: is health in the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces? hon. Chair, we live in a federation where we work closely together with provinces and territories so that we can reach our mutually important goals, one of which is that all citizens of Canada, all members of Canada, have access to a public health care system that meets their needs. We continue to work within the constitutional framework the chair: Excuse me, but I have to interrupt you. Is health in provincial jurisdiction? Will there be an increase in the health transfers and will they come without conditions? hon. The federal government transfers money to the provinces, as he is well aware, to deliver health care, which is within each province's and territory's jurisdiction. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. As the member for Manicouagan, I would like to address the House today on a matter that is very important in my constituency. Regionally, I am also in eastern Quebec, which includes the Gasp, the Magdalen Islands, and the Lower St.Lawrence. Make no mistake, it is not the workers who are seasonal, it is the industry itself, as our former leader Gilles Duceppe so rightly used to say. Those industries are very important for that region of Quebec, but I see no measures to support them that accommodate all their uniqueness. A few minutes ago, I heard the Prime Minister say that he had intervened to help the companies and the workers in those seasonal industries. I would like to know what the specific assistance is and how it is tailored to the companies and the workers in the seasonal industries he mentions. navdeep bains: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank my colleague for her question. We know that the current situation is causing upheaval in the lives of Canadians from one end of the country to the other and that it is having a major impact on our small and medium businesses. We are continuing to have discussions and to tailor our measures so that as many Canadians as possible can take advantage of them. marilne gill: Mr.Chair, with all respect, I am hearing that nothing has been done. Measures have been proposed, but, as I understand it, they are not specific to the seasonal sectors. The fishers are currently going out, but right in the middle of the COVID-19 crisis. For example, would the government be prepared to let the Canada emergency response benefit provide workers with eligibility to employment insurance benefits? They could then get through the coming year and make it to next season. jean-yves duclos: Mr.Chair, I want to thank the member for speaking about the situation in all regions of Canada, particularly in Quebec. From the start, we've been implementing significant measures to support the millions of workers who are currently struggling. We're providing broader investments, such as the wage subsidy and emergency loans for small businesses, of which there are many in my colleague's constituency. We'll continue to work very hard so that the workers and businesses in her constituency can get through this crisis and emerge stronger and more united. The workers in the industry also don't feel any better when they see that, at the end of the summer, they'll have no job and no money to put food on the table. We're currently talking about the businesses in my constituency, but there are also businesses in the East. Quebec and Canada as a whole, both in terms of fishing and tourism the chair: The honourable President of the Treasury Board has the floor. The Canada Emergency Response Benefit is available to all individuals who haven't been receiving employment insurance benefits since December2019. A number of stakeholders in Canada and Quebec called for this, particularly in the places the chair: The next question goes to Mr. The Prime Minister announced the business bailout, and in that proposal, he said that there would be limits on CEO bonuses and share buybacks. By saying limits, the Prime Minister is suggesting that there would be some amount of bonuses or share buybacks that could be paid for with public dollars. As we provide that support, we've been very clear for large enterprises that share buybacks will not be allowed, period, and that there will, of course, be limitations on total compensation for senior executives in order to give Canadians confidence that we're doing the things we need to do to support them, but that we're not supporting executives. Chair, Germany has actually taken the lead and said that if a company wants public money, then its executives must commit to reducing their pay. Will Canada follow Germany to ensure that public dollars go to workers and not to enrich the executive suite, and commit that no public money will go to bonuses or increasing salaries for executives? hon. Chair, we are looking forward to releasing the complete details of the large employer emergency financing facility, and I think the member opposite will be quite pleased to see that we will be leading on behalf of Canada in advance of what Germany is doing. Chair, we know the PBO has said that $25 billion, at least, is being lost to our revenues because corporations are avoiding paying their fair share. Will the Prime Minister commit today very clearly that if a company is hiding its money by putting it in an offshore tax haven, that company will not receive public help, yes or no? hon. Chair, again with regard to this program, we want to be very clear that the support that goes to large businesses actually supports their Canadian enterprises and their Canadian employees. In that regard, we will not allow any company that has been convicted of tax evasion to have access to these funds, and we will carefully evaluate on an ongoing basis to make sure that companies remain eligible for this support based on their continuing investment in Canada. Chair, how many companies can the Minister of Finance name that have been convicted of tax evasion that would be denied help under this program? hon. We're trying to support Canadians, whether they're working for small or large businesses, so they can get through this, can support their families during this time, and come out with a job at the end of it. Those are simply fancy Liberal words saying that a company that has been convicted of tax evasion.... Why don't we follow what France has done and commit very clearly, not in Liberal fancy words but straight up, if a company is hiding its money by using offshore tax havens, it will not get public help. Chair, we've been working with France and other countries to make these rules stricter for businesses. The process around the common reporting standard and the base erosion profit shifting has made it more difficult for firms to move money into tax havens, and it has ensured that we have transparency in seeing when they do so. We'll continue to do that hard work to make sure that businesses abide by the rules and pay their appropriate part of taxes in our country. If a company is not convicted of tax evasion, but is putting its money in Barbados or Bermuda, for example, specifically to avoid paying taxesand we have a similar example of Loblaws doing something like thiswill that company, despite not having a conviction, but clearly having avoided paying their fair share by putting their money in an offshore tax haven, receive help, yes or no? hon. The Liberals hand-picked ambassador to China, Dominic Barton, stated that China's conduct during the pandemic is damaging to its own soft power. However, when asked if there should be an investigation into China's behaviour during the crisis, the health minister stated that's not for her to say because she doesn't have all the evidence about what China did or didn't do. Why is Canada's ambassador to China criticizing China's actions during the pandemic while this Liberal government is defending it? the chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister. Chair, Ambassador Barton is an excellent representative of Canada in China, and he is a member of our government and very much shares and helps to formulate our government's policy when it comes to China. Ambassador Barton, of course, shares our government's view that a post-crisis review is absolutely necessary. Chair, the government's March 27 duty deferral announcement has caused tension within the trade community. Customs brokers are being asked to shoulder tremendous liability as importers are not required to make duty payments until the end of June, when there is a real possibility that some of them may find themselves insolvent. Will the government commit to a liability exemption for customs brokers whose clients are unable to pay the duties at the end of June? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, we have worked hard to determine programs that we think can be supportive of individuals and businesses, including allowing for deferral of taxes through this period. That we believe is important with respect to the GST, which we've allowed to be deferred until July 1, and in terms of taxes for businesses, until the end of August. We think this helps businesses to get through this challenging time, and we'll continue to support businesses and individuals so we can have a strong economy when we get through this crisis. Chair, the following three questions are from constituents in my riding, so hopefully, I'll get some good answers for them. It's a family-owned operation, so he doesn't meet the payroll threshold for the wage subsidy benefit, nor does he qualify for any other announced loans or grants. Is the minister suggesting that they lie to get the funds, or will they make some changes so they qualify? the chair: The honourable minister. navdeep bains: I want to highlight some of the initiatives we have put forward to assist small businesses. The Canada emergency wage subsidy covers 75% of the wages of employees, and that way they can maintain their jobs. On top of that, I want to highlight the Canada emergency business account, which has issued 590,000 loans. As the Minister of Finance recently mentioned, we've deferred GST and HST and customs duty payments for businesses for the next three months. He tells me that Canadian custodians and building service contractors are not purchasing Canadian-made disinfectants because very few are included in the federal approval list for COVID-19, even though Canada produces many products that Health Canada has certified as disinfectants. In fact, we have been working very closely with producers of Canadian products as well as with our colleagues at Innovation, Science and Economic Development to make sure that Canadian companies have what they need to very quickly move through the approval process. Of course, there is an iterative process that requires companies to ensure that a product is safe for use in Canada. Chair, last week the government announced $252 million in assistance for Canadian farmers, which was largely seen as an insult, especially given that a good amount of this money was already budgeted. A constituent of mine, Tracy, from Melfort, wrote to me asking me to advocate for farmers and ranchers so they can get the support they need to continue to produce our food. When will the government start to prioritize farmers and ranchers? Will they continue to reform the business risk management program? hon. We did announce programs last week, and some of these new programs are designed specifically for the meat sector. A total of $77.5million is earmarked for processors and $50million for beef producers. Chair, provinces are reopening at different speeds, and that includes opening their provincial parks before the May long weekend. Will the Minister of Environment commit to opening national parks in harmony with provincial and territorial parks across Canada? hon. I am pleased that we were able to publish, on Tuesday, April 28, shared guidelines on the reopening, which were supported by the Prime Minister and all of the premiers of the provinces and territories the chair: Mr. Why is Parks Canada postponing the opening of lock operations and similar functions along our heritage waterways? hon. Chair, as I was saying in my answer to the first question, the question of coordinating national and provincial parks is a very good one. Chair, since the beginning of this pandemic, the minority Liberal government has been actively trying to push our democracy aside. It severely limited parliamentary sittings, attempted to take executive control of tax rates and used an order in council to ban lawfully acquired and responsibly owned firearms. When will the government stop using this pandemic as an excuse to run roughshod over our cherished democratic values? hon. pablo rodriguez: I don't understand this question at all, since we're meeting here to ask questions for twohours and 15minutes. Yesterday, there was the equivalent of two question periods, and tomorrow there will be the equivalent of two more question periods. There is more money made available to forcibly confiscate lawfully owned property than in emergency support for our hard-working farmers or our prosperity-creating oil and gas sector. The only consistent theme appears to be that sectors that do not traditionally vote Liberal are finding themselves left out in the cold. We're fully committed to our sectors, including the energy sector and the agriculture and agrifood sector. Chair, during the misinformation briefing, the public safety minister used Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom as examples for firearms policy. Does the public safety minister realize that these countries are islands and none share a border with anyone, least of which with the United States of America? Is my bringing this new-found evidence to the minister's attention going to change his focus to smugglers, gangs and criminals, instead of wrongfully blaming lawful gun owners? hon. I want to be very clear that those countries have recognized, like Canada has, that these weapons have no place in a civil society. They were not designed for hunting and sporting purposes, which are the lawful uses of a firearm in Canada, but rather for individuals to kill other individuals. Tragically, in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, that is precisely what they have been used for, and we have prohibited the chair: Mr. Chair, the nine o'clock gun is an iconic 12-pound cannon that has been fired daily in Vancouver in Stanley Park since the 1800s. Can the minister advise the public of the safety risks that this cannon, which was manufactured in 1816, poses to the public? hon. Chair, I was referring to the iconic, heritage 12-pound cannon that is mounted on a pedestal in Stanley Park. Any cannon that can be fired can be loaded with a projectile, so it meets the definition of a firearm, which means that every cannon in Canada, every heritage piece that might be in a museum, every heritage piece that might be in a collection, is now a prohibited firearm. We have prohibited weapons that were unfortunately widely available in Canada and were being used for purposes other than sporting activities, which is the only use of a firearm in Canada, for either hunting or target shooting sporting activities. Rather, they were being used to harm individual Canadians and, in some tragic cases, many individual Canadians. Not only is this a terrible loss for these communities of important community events, but it's also putting a significant financial strain on these agricultural societies. Chair, what we've done is we've put forward monies to support our regional development agencies. These agencies have the mandate and the ability to support local initiatives, including the events the member has highlighted. This is more than doubling the budget that currently exists, so that we have sufficient resources to support communities and these very important local events. In my riding alone we have the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music. The postponement and cancellation of the seasons of these important cultural institutions is having a massive impact on the hospitality industry, including local restaurants, hotels and bed and breakfasts. Many of these businesses are small businesses and owner-operated businesses that are falling through the cracks in the government's programs that have been introduced. How will the government address the blind spot in their programs for small businesses in communities like this, which rely on the tourism and the arts and culture industries? hon. That is why we allocated $500 million to respond to the specific financial needs of arts, heritage and sports organizations, to help them be more resilient through this difficult time. Last week we rolled out the funding of this announcement, and we look forward to engaging with communities across the country. No one wants to see the borders reopen until it's safe to do so, but can the government provide clarity on what criteria will be used to provide some information to these tourism operators of how, when and under what criteria international borders will be reopened? hon. Chair, I would like to thank the member opposite for his view that we need to be cautious and prudent and put the health and safety of Canadians first. When it comes to international borders, the health and safety of Canadians is absolutely the first criterion we are going to look at. Of course, we will be looking at the situation with coronavirus the chair: We'll go back to Mr. One of my constituents only recently returned to the workforce after spending many years out of the workforce raising her children. As such, she doesn't qualify under the $5,000 minimum requirement for income over the past 12 months. Chair, we are mindful of the very difficult circumstances in which many Canadians who have a foot in two places find themselves. We have a number of different measures to help them and we're going to continue to do so. Chair, it has been reported that as many as 15% of farmers and farm families in Canada could face going out of business and bankruptcy because of the massive impact that COVID-19 is having on agriculture in Canada. Business risk management programs are not working for these farm families, and the processing capacity is simply not there for farmers and for farm families, especially in the beef and pork industries. How will the government immediately address the short-term processing capacity issues found in the beef and pork sectors? When will they finally live up to the commitment of a complete review of the business risk management programs? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I've been holding discussions with my provincial counterparts to review the risk management programs. With respect to the AgriStability program, we've offered producers some accommodations and pushed back the enrolment date to July3. We've also increased, from 50% to 75%, the advance payment that they can obtain quickly, in provinces where this is possible. So before they say that the program isn't working, I encourage them to use this calculator to find out how much they can receive. Many don't qualify for the CEBA because they don't have a high enough payroll or because they don't have a business account. Will the government expand the criteria so that small businesses in my community and across Canada can qualify for the important assistance they need at this time? hon. Chair, I would like to remind my honourable colleague that we did expand the eligibility criteria threshold from $50,000 down to $20,000 so that more businesses could be eligible, and on the top end, for salaries, from $1 million to $1.5 million. Producers are telling me that they would use the western livestock price insurance program if the premiums were affordable, which they are not. Will the Minister of Agriculture work with the industry to make the premiums affordable so that producers can have price protection against these market fluctuations? hon. Chair, we're working closely with the industry and my provincial counterparts to identify the best programs to help producers in this difficult time. Last week, we announced specific programs for the meat sector: $77.5million for processors, $50million for beef producers and $50million for pork producers. Due to this growth and the eligibility criteria for the wage subsidy program, their revenues would have to decline much further than 30% in order for them to receive help. Will the Minister of Finance amend the eligibility for the wage subsidy program so that Chez Angela and similar businesses can apply? the acting chair (mr. Now businesses will only need to show a 15% decline in revenue, and businesses will have the option of using January and February as a reference period to show revenue losses, or of using the same time last year. This reflects, again, our ability to understand the needs of businesses, to act quickly and to make sure that they benefit from this very important initiative. The Blarney Stone restaurant in Killarney has repeatedly asked the Minister of Finance if they could refinance their loans through the Canada small business financing program. Will the Minister of Finance give small business owners the ability to refinance their existing loans through the program, yes or no? hon. Chair, again, we've demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness when it comes to these financing options. I'd also like to highlight another very important initiative that was mentioned earlier, the deferring of GST/HST and customs duty payments for businesses for the next three months. Again, it's another initiative to put more money in the pockets of businesses as they deal with this unprecedented health care crisis. Chair, the Liberals still haven't fixed the payroll eligibility problems for many small business owners who need to access the zero-interest loans available in CEBA. Can the minister provide any rationale for why countless small businesses are not being allowed to access these loans? hon. The Liberals' order in council on firearms will put an end to many Canadians being able to represent our country. Can the Minister of Public Safety list even one of these sport shooting competitions, which will now be illegal due to his order in council? the acting chair (mr. Chair, it's an important question because sport shooting is a very important tradition for many Canadian sport shooters. I want to assure the member opposite that the weapons we have prohibited by this order in council were not designed for sport shooting and are not used in the Olympics or Paralympic Games. Chair, statistics show that women are more likely to live paycheque to paycheque, so women continue to be disproportionately impacted by this pandemic in a negative way. We are making sure that many of our measures do not disproportionately impact women, because when women succeed, all Canadians succeed. maxime blanchette-joncas (rimouski-neigettetmiscouatales basques, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. It's a privilege to be here in the House today to represent the people of Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques, but also to serve as the BlocQubcois tourism critic. The tourism industry in Quebec generates over $15billion in economic spinoffs and employs more than 400,000workers. The tourism industry consists of over 30,000businesses, and two-thirds of these businesses are outside the major centres in the Quebec City and Montreal regions. I heard my honourable colleague on the other side of the House say that a plan was in place for the tourism industry. navdeep bains: Mr.Chair, I want to thank my colleague for his question. We'll continue to work with my colleague and the other members to find solutions that will improve the situation. maxime blanchette-joncas: Mr.Chair, I'm not sure that I fully understood the plan. However, I can say that the people in the tourism industry don't understand the plan, because they're still waiting for it. The assistance covers 75% of commercial rental payments under $50,000, and property owners pay the remaining 25%. That's why we've taken other measures, such as the measures related to credit and rent. We could see that the program was ineffective, particularly for seasonal businesses, including businesses in the tourism industry. Businesses need to have suspended operations or to show a decline of at least 70% in operations since the start of the public health crisis. How can a tourism business that hasn't yet launched operations show a decline of 70%? It doesn't make sense. A recent survey conducted by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business shows that only one in ten businesses can benefit from this assistance. Does the government believe that commercial rent assistance is effective even though only one in ten businesses can benefit from it? hon. Through the community futures development corporations and business development centres, we're providing $71million to businesses and organizations in rural communities by giving them much-needed access to capital. maxime blanchette-joncas: Mr.Chair, in my humble opinion, one out of ten businesses amounts to 10%. What does the government plan to do? Does it plan to implement an expanded program to support businesses in the tourism and seasonal industries to ensure that fixed costs are more fully covered? hon. We've helped the workers and we'll continue to work with the provincial governments to find solutions. We must work together, particularly in the tourism sector, because the situation in the sector is very serious. I'm sure that we can find solutions to help improve the situation for people in the tourism sector. Chair, I would like to inform you that I will be splitting my time with the member for Kingston and the Islands. We know that the COVID-19 pandemic has caused a great deal of stress and uncertainty for all Canadians and that during this uncertain time, it is normal for many people to feel increased anxiety, depression and mental health issues. In fact, a poll by the Canadian Mental Health Association's Ontario branch showed that 61% of respondents were worried about the mental health of a loved one and more than half of the respondents were worried about their own mental health. In the Standing Committee on Health, we've also heard from many witnesses that our front-line heroes, working around the clock to protect us from the virus and to help others recover, are at great risk of physical and mental burnout. This shows how seriously Canadians need supports for their mental health and well-being during this most trying time. Can the Minister of Health tell my constituents what the government is doing to support Canadians during this uncertain time? hon. In fact, we've been very worried about Canadians' mental health as resulting from the pandemic, but even prior to that we knew that we needed to create rapidly more tools for Canadians across the country, no matter where they lived. We've worked very closely with our provincial and territorial partners, for example, to amplify the work that they're doing through increased supports, financial supports. We also launched Wellness Together Canada, which is a digital portal, where all Canadians can get access to tools they can use to help with the circumstances they find themselves in and to get the information they need during COVID-19. It also allows Canadians to connect to paid professionals who can provide support in a variety of different ways, whether it's over the telephone, through email or by text, understanding that Canadians have different ways of connecting that work for them. We've also partnered with a number of organizations that provide supports to Canadians, many of the crisis hotlines, for example, that are working double-time or triple-time to try to keep up with the volume of demand. This is a difficult time for all Canadians and we will continue to work to ensure Canadians have the supports they need. As we know, thousands of post-secondary students depend on employment throughout the summer in order to pay for expenses throughout their academic year. Unfortunately the pandemic has resulted in the closure of many businesses and organizations that would normally employ students who work during the summer. Thousands of students are now left without the financial means they were depending on to pay for their post-secondary educational expenses. In response to the concerns raised by students, the government announced the creation of the Canada emergency student benefit, which will provide students with the assistance they need to make it through these uncertain financial times. I represent a riding that has multiple post-secondary institutions, and my constituents have been asking when they should expect to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit. Can the President of the Treasury Board please give us an update on the status of the Canada emergency student benefit, and in particular, when students will be able to start accessing this benefit, and also confirm if and how it may be retroactive? hon. Chair, I would first like to thank the member for Kingston and the Islands for his strong advocacy in favour of young Canadians in his riding and across Canada. Chair, our government is committed to ensuring that young Canadians have the support that they need during this very difficult time. That's why we are investing $9 billion to support students and recent graduates affected by COVID-19. The measures include doubling the Canada student grants, raising the cap on student loans, creating new employment opportunities for students and launching the Canada emergency student benefit. I'm pleased to share with the House that the application period for the Canada emergency student benefit will commence on May 15. This benefit will provide $1,250 a month to eligible students or $2,000 for students who have disabilities or dependants. Chair, when Canada emerges from this pandemic, we want to make sure that students are in a financial position to continue their studies so that they can pursue fruitful careers and help build a strong Canada. bruce stanton): We'll wait a few seconds before moving on to the next five-minute period to allow the console operator to switch with someone else. The government has been completely silent on this issue, and now funding to fight human trafficking is being taken away from front-line organizations. Chair, human trafficking is, as we all know, one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. To combat human trafficking, we've launched a comprehensive national strategy that brings together federal efforts under one strategic framework. We have backed that new move with $75 million in additional investments, and the new strategy now strengthens Canada's ability to fight this abhorrent attack on human rights and human dignity. We know that human trafficking hasn't stopped during this pandemic, and these front-line organizations have received the message that supporting them in fighting these heinous crimes is not a priority. We've made $75 million in additional investments, and this new strategy takes a whole-of-government approach. It empowers victims and survivors to regain their self-confidence and control over their lives, and it will prevent more of these crimes from taking place. It provides better protection and support for those most vulnerable to human trafficking, and it will ensure that police and prosecutors have the resources to prosecute these traffickers for their heinous crimes. Chair, we'll continue to work collaboratively with victims groups and to provide the supports that are required. There are effective medications that have been developed for those living with cystic fibrosis, yet this medication is not available here. We know that the pharmaceutical company has not been able to apply to market this drug in Canada because of the changes to the PMPRB, which have been heavily criticized by stakeholders and patients. Will the minister delay the July 1 implementation date and review the regulations so that drugs like Trikafta are made available in Canada? hon. Chair, there are two separate issues in that question, so I will talk about the PMPRB. As a government, we are committed, as you know, to increasing affordability of and accessibility to Canadian medications, to medications across Canada, and the PMPRB regulatory amendments will help Canadians to be able to afford their prescriptions. In fact, many countries with much lower prices for medicine gain access to new medicines in the same time frame as Canada, or even faster. We know the importance of lowering drug costs, but not at the cost of life-saving drugs not being available here in Canada. We also know that the nature of the disease makes those people more susceptible to contracting COVID-19, and they are at a higher risk of its being lethal. patty hajdu: I believe the member opposite is talking about the drug Trikafta, and many cystic fibrosis patient groups have been advocating having access to it in Canada. In fact, the manufacturer of Trikafta has not submitted an application to market this product in Canada. However, that said, we do have a special access program for drugs that are not marketed in Canada. As of May 6, Health Canada approved 95 applications for 98 patients to access Trikafta through the special access program. I would encourage all patients with cystic fibrosis to speak to their doctor to ensure that they too can apply through the special access program. One young woman from Calgary is a CF champion, fighting for her passion to be a famous opera singer. Her reality of living with CF has meant that she has had many visits to the hospital and had many health crises that have made singing impossible for a time. patty hajdu: I will just repeat that the manufacturer has not applied to sell this drug in Canada. On July 25, 2019, after the federal-provincial-territorial agriculture meeting, the agriculture minister promised big changes in 2020 for programs like AgriStability and AgriRecovery. Besides a pilot program in a couple of provinces and an application deadline, is there anything else you would like to report? hon. Since the July meeting in QuebecCity with the provincial and territorial ministers of agriculture, we've been working to improve the AgriStability program. However, at this time, we're responding to emergencies that go beyond what the various risk management programs can provide to our producers. The United States Department of Agriculture has allocated $19 billion to farmers, $16 billion of that in direct support. The program that was offered last week, $252 million, was a mere fraction of what the United States is getting. If the minister is telling farmers to bank on the existing business risk management program, it's not going to work. Countless numbers of pork farmers, just in my riding alone, have one thousand, two thousand, three thousand head of hogs ready to be shipped within the near future. That's why we announced specific programs for the meat sector: $77.5million for processors, $50million for beef producers and $50million for pork producers. One pork producer tried the calculator and told me that he could quickly receive $11 per head of hog. Alberta's agriculture minister even publicly stated that some producers could obtain the desired amount of $20 per head using the AgriStability program. There's a $59-per-head gap, times likely several thousand head of hogs in their barns. I know that the government has their position on the carbon tax, and I know that I'm not going to change it, but I want to give the members of Parliament across the way, the government, an idea of what a pork farmer might go through. They get no credit for any of the carbon sequestration and ethical environmental management on their farm, yet every month they are asked to pay a carbon tax. marie-claude bibeau: As you know, our pollution pricing policy is designed to build a clean economy. On one hand, emissions from animal and vegetable production are not subject to carbon pricing, and on the other hand, farm fuels and other fuels delivered to off-farm points-of-sale are exempt. We've also provided partial reimbursements for propane and natural gas used in commercial greenhouses. We encourage producers to take advantage of the business risk management programs, and we are ready to do more. What about pork farmers? What about chicken farmers? What about hens? What about drying in the fall? All those farmers pay a carbon tax, and there is no program for them. They pay and they pay and they pay, and what makes it worse is that they are given no credit for the environmental work they do on their farms. marie-claude bibeau: It's true that our producers work incredibly hard to protect the environment and ensure the well-being of their animals. That's important, to be sure, but I'd like to put the impact of pollution pricing into perspective. To put these estimates into context, AAFC used data from agricultural tax data programs to show the impact on a per-farm basis as a percentage of total operating costs. The estimates ranged from $210 to $819 per farm and 0.05% to 0.42% of total farm operating expenses. Being from a rural area, myself, I can assure you that people who live in rural communities are resourceful and resilient. Instead of staying cooped up in their homes, they are doing their best to retool and save the companies they work for. I want to know, not whether the government is going to help these Canadians join the 21st century, but when. Can you give us any assurances and, above all, a timetable for a real plan? hon. When, then, will people have Internet access? I'm simply asking you for a date now. navdeep bains: Mr.Chair, under the last budget, we launched a $1.7-billion program to support broadband infrastructure. We also introduced the connect to innovate program, which has helped 900communities all over the country. We will keep working to make the lives of people who live in rural areas better, and we will find solutions to provide high-speed Internet access. richard lehoux: Mr.Chair, you no doubt know that Beauce is the cradle of small and medium-sized businesses. On March27, the Prime Minister introduced the emergency wage subsidy to help businesses cope with the pandemic. Of the many constituents in my riding who have reached out to me on the subject, one, in particular, has contacted me three times since mid-April. navdeep bains: Mr.Chair, we announced in financial support for vulnerable small and medium-sized businesses that are not eligible for the measures already in place and that are struggling with cash flow issues. We've also invested $71million to support businesses and organizations by giving them access to capital in rural communities. As well, we've invested in programs for rural areas, and we will continue to make investments to help small and medium-sized businesses. The Canadian Federation of Agriculture asked the federal government for an agriculture and agri-food emergency fund of $2.6billion to help maintain food security in Canada in response to COVID-19. Will the minister address the federation's request? Minister, I'd like you to give us a date. marie-claude bibeau: We already have a host of business risk management programs, through which, $1.6billion is available to producers annually. I urge producers to apply for the AgriStability program and to use the funds in their AgriInvest accounts. bruce stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for LangleyAldergrove, Mr. Chair, the government's wage subsidy program is designed to help traditional companies, not high-growth companies. For example, I was talking to Ron, who operates an engineering firm in my riding that specializes in designing and building very expensive machines for their ever-expanding overseas markets. Of course not, since they're in high-growth mode, but just recently they had to lay off some very talented staff. Can the minister confirm that the wage subsidy program can be expanded or adapted to deal with high-growth companies that will play such a key role in Canada's economic relaunch? hon. We, the government, take enormous pride in our small businesses, particularly the start-ups and the high-growth firms. They're going to be absolutely essential for our economic recovery, and we know that some of them are ineligible for the wage subsidy. That is why we introduced a $250-million program in the industrial research assistance program through the National Research Council, strictly targeting and focusing on those high-growth firms that were ineligible for the wage subsidy, so that they can provide the wage support to keep those highly skilled individuals in Canada. Chair, there is another category of businesses that are falling through the cracks and feel they are being left behind by the wage subsidy program. For example, there is a trucking company in my riding that is significantly bigger this year than it was last year as a result of some key acquisitions and mergers late last year. All of the legacy companies by themselves would qualify individually for the wage subsidy, but the merged company does not. He is identifying unique pain points that exist within the overall economy with specific examples of companies that are not able to access some of the programming we have provided. I do want to highlight, when it comes to the wage subsidy, that we have made changes to the revenue thresholds to make more companies eligible. Chair, the government's commercial rent assistance program discriminates against certain tenants based solely on whether their landlord has a mortgage on the subject building. Some of these buildings have mortgages and some don't, and it all depends on what they were able to negotiate with their banker. Leslie is having a very hard time explaining to her tenants why some will qualify for the rental subsidy and some won't, depending on which building they are in. Can the government confirm that the nonsensical mortgage requirement in the rent subsidy program is gone? hon. Chair, the approach that was taken on trying to assist small businesses with rent is very much based on the fact that this is a provincial jurisdiction, so we have used the mortgage system as a way to do it. We expect that we will find a way to ensure that those landlords who don't have mortgages can work with the CMHC to have the appropriate approach to be eligible for this program. tako van popta: Many people in my riding have reached out to me to say they are quite disturbed that their favourite hunting and sport shooting firearms are now on the banned list. Can the minister inform Canadians how many Canadian taxpayer dollars are going to go to the buyback program for legal gun owners and how far that money would go if it were to be diverted to something useful, such as more border controls to stop the illegal importation of firearms? hon. Some weapons, quite frankly, are completely unsuitable for any sporting or hunting activity, such as weapons designed for soldiers to engage in combat with other soldiers. I look forward to a discussion in this House with the member opposite on how that can be done to ensure public safety and to ensure that we do it in as effective a way as possible. I'd like to thank the government and ministers present for the rapid relief that they've provided to Canadians. I'd like to thank them also for being responsive to the MPs who have brought forward gaps in the program. The CERB requirements recognize dividend income for eligibility for the Canada emergency business account, CEBA, but the Canada emergency business account does not recognize dividends or contract payments. I've been contacted by many small business owners who have been legally paying themselves with dividends for years, but these companies cannot apply for the CEBA even though this might save them from bankruptcy during this crisis. Will the government make the necessary changes to allow dividend income to be admissible for CEBA eligibility? hon. navdeep bains: I'd like to thank the honourable colleague for his very thoughtful question and his advocacy in looking for different solutions and in working with us to help small businesses, not only in his riding but across the country as well. He's absolutely correct that the Canada emergency business account has been successful, as 590,000 loans have been issued. That's a reflection of some of the changes that we introduced, which made the criteria more generous so that more businesses could obtain assistance. As I said before, we continue to work with Canadians and Canadian businesses and colleagues in this House to see how we can assist more Canadians, not less of them, and we'll continue to endeavour to do that. Many are being forced to make an impossible choice between sheltering in place overseas or separating from their spouse in order to return home. Will the government remove unnecessary barriers and allow these Canadians to return to Canada immediately with their spouses? hon. Chair, in an effort to flatten the curve and to protect Canadians, we've taken a number of extraordinary measures at the border and we have restricted non-essential travel of people coming into Canada. While Canadian citizens and permanent residents will always be admissiblesubject, of course, to a 14-day quarantine upon entry foreign nationals are subject to travel restrictions. For individuals to be eligible to travel to Canada, their travel must be considered essential travel, consistent with the emergency order put in place. I want to assure that each situation will be decided on a case-by-case basis based on the information made available to border service officers. Chair, the Alberta energy regulator has suspended a wide range of environmental monitoring requirements for oil sands companies during this pandemic. It includes wetland wildlife and bird monitoring, even though Canada is a signatory to the international migratory bird treaty. Will the federal government hold the Alberta government to account and withhold energy sector relief funding until these environmental regulations are reinstated? hon. Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question and for his very collaborative approach with our government on a number of issues. I would like to thank him for this particular question and his particular reference to methane, because it gives me an opportunity to highlight some very important progress that the federal government made this week in working with the Province of Alberta. This will allow us, in working with Alberta, to work on equivalency on methane, which will allow us to work towards standing down the federal system in those jurisdictions. This is tremendously important, because it will allow us to cut methane emissions by 45% by 2025. Chair, I was pleased to hear about extending the tax deadline to October 1 in yesterday's announcement for seniors. After many discussions with the Minister of Seniors, I was glad to hear that she was listening to the NDP and many others on making this happen. Chair, COVID-19 has been showing us in stark terms that Canadian seniors are struggling to make ends meet in Canada. Before enduring the crisis, it was clear that OAS and GIS benefits levels were just not enough for seniors to keep up with the cost of living, so we need to fix this now. Why is the government refusing to increase OAS and GIS benefits to lift seniors out of poverty on a permanent basis? hon. Chair, I want to thank my honourable colleague for giving me this opportunity to rise today and talk about how we are supporting Canadian seniors during this pandemic. Many Canadian seniors are facing significant health, economic and social challenges as a result of the pandemic. Our government is taking significant action to provide Canadian seniors with greater financial security and give them the help they need during this crisis. We're building on past measures by introducing a one-time tax-free payment of $300 for those who receive OAS and of $200 for those receiving GIS, totalling $500 to seniors who receive both. We are also supporting community-based projects to improve the quality of life for seniors through the New Horizons for Seniors program, and investing in other charities. Chair, I was glad to hear that the Minister of Seniors is acknowledging the financial burden that our seniors are taking on. She mentioned the prescription dispensing fees, the added costs of their groceries and the delivery charges. I was glad that the Prime Minister acknowledged the heavy toll seniors are facing, and that they helped to shape this country and now they need our help. A surprising statement that I heard yesterday was the Treasury Board and the seniors minister's admission in their press briefing that the level of assistance being provided to Canadian seniors is quite low. Why is the seniors minister acknowledging all the burdens they're trying to help the seniors with, but the response they're giving is just a very low way of handling it? hon. I just want to assure him that while the government remains committed to implementing policies in our platform, we are focused on this health crisis right now. We have provided financial support to seniors sooner through the GST credit top-up, and now with additional payments to OAS and GIS recipients. This year we are investing over twice as much on financial assistance for seniors as we committed to in our platform, which is $3.8 billion compared to $1.56 billion in the platform. Just to give some details, for those on OAS and GIS, they will get, in conjunction with the GST credit top-up, $875 per adult, and over $1,500 per couple. What I've heard from seniors is this is a one-shot deal and it's an insult to them. We did make an agreement about two weeks ago that help would be implemented without delay on the seniors issue and for people with disabilities. Why did yesterday's announcement include only the people who are seniors, but not people with disabilities? Why have they been omitted? When can they expect help to come? hon. On the one-time payment, we know that seniors need help now, and that's why it's important to get that money into seniors' accounts as soon as possible. That is why we're providing the one payment right away, instead of small amounts spread over months. I'll be sharing my time with the member for Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques. When I go back home, what am I going to tell the people of Chandler, Amqui, Bic, Saint-Simon, Tadoussac and Harrington Harbour? Am I going to tell them that the government supports the Bloc Qubcois's proposal? We propose giving seasonal workers access to employment insurance benefits until next season, regardless of whether they received the CERB, how many hours they worked or how many they accumulated. Should I instead tell them that the Liberal government has nothing in store for them as they suffer through the crisis? The government hasn't managed to bridge the employment insurance gap, and is even planning to bring it to six, if not eight, months. jean-yves duclos: Mr.Chair, I have three things to say in response to the member's important question. The work they do is fundamental so they can support their families and their communities in eastern Quebec and other regions. Second, the CERB delivers significant assistance to those often vulnerable workers, the majority of whom would be able or certainly eager to find another job. Third, and finally, before any longer-term investments are made, it's important to keep in mind that those who may have received employment insurance benefits but who lost them in recent weeks or who do seasonal work are eligible for the CERB. We've already announced some very important measuresand we'll continue to do soin support of tourism, culture, agriculture, fisheries, forestry and many other key contributors to regional development in Quebec and elsewhere. bruce stanton): The member for Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques, Mr.Blanchette-Joncas, has the floor. maxime blanchette-joncas: Mr.Chair, the situation my fellow member just described is of little comfort to those in Quebec's regions. According to the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, one in three businesses doesn't qualify for rent relief because it doesn't meet the 70% drop in revenues requirement. Half of businesses have indicated that their landlords won't be applying for the program because it's optional. How is that going to help businesses, Mr.Chair? We are still trying to figure that out. Will the government commit to reviewing the program, which is too restrictive for businesses and optional for landlords? The program must do more to help businesses, particularly seasonal ones, cover their fixed costs. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that businesses are, of course, very concerned about fixed costs. We haven't yet announced all the details, so it's much too soon to say that it's flawed. At that point, we hope to be on the right track when it comes to fixed costs and rent. What's more, the public health crisis has brought its share of change for businesses, particularly with the new health measures. They have to plan, implement preventative measures, have response plans, train staff and acquire the necessary equipment. In order to do those things, protect the public and reopen their doors, businesses have to assume the costs. Will the government commit to providing financial assistance to businesses, especially those in the tourism industry, so they can cover the costs of putting the new health measures in place? hon. That's why we've invested $71million in community futures development corporations, or CFDCs, and business development centres. Both of those will go a long way towards helping businesses in rural communities, and I have no doubt that we will continue working together to find other solutions. One of the terms for accessing the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance, CECRA, is that you must have a mortgage on the property. Will the Minister of Finance tell us if this program was designed for the benefit of landlords and tenants or for the benefit of banks? hon. I think that it's important to know that commercial rent and landlord-tenant relationships are provincial jurisdictions. Therefore, as we embarked on an approach that could enable landlords and tenants to get to an agreement that would help both, we used the CMHC as a vehicle from which we could do that. We think that we've come up with a program that provides advantages for the landlords and advantages for the tenants, and we will be announcing details that will include how mortgages can be put in place for those landlords who don't currently have them. greg mclean: Brookfield Properties, a large Canadian firm, announced that its rent collections on commercial properties for April were 15% of the lease terms. Luckily, Brookfield has another company, Brookfield Business Partners, poised to help by buying up the distressed equity of the firms that owe them money. Did the Minister of Finance design CECRA with this outcome in mind, washing out individual investors and small companies and transferring that value into the hands of vulture financiers who hold all the cards? hon. Chair, we designed this program exactly with the idea in mind of the challenge that we're seeing. We're seeing that in many cases commercial tenants are not actually able to pay their rent, so landlords are not getting the rent that's due. By providing funding through the mortgage system to those landlords, we recognize that we'll enable both of those two parts of the equation to come to an agreement that we think will be advantageous for the sector over the long term. greg mclean: In the past two months, the Bank of Canada has tripled the size of its balance sheet to almost $400 billion, with more to come, Mr. In the 2008 recession, the world's major economies endured quantitative easing on a previously unknown scale, most of which has not since been unwound. Canada endured a then-record $50-billion deficit, but we did not need to enter the uncertain world of QE, quantitative easing, as a result of the strength of Canada's oil and gas industry. Will the minister acknowledge that this government's oil and gas policy mismanagement has led to economic decline, necessitating hundreds of billions of dollars of quantitative easing? hon. Chair, let me challenge one assumption implicit in the honourable member's question, the assumption that our government fails to understand the importance of the oil and gas sector to our economy. Not all companies are going to need to tap into this sort of liquidity...but some that are normally high-quality, stable companies likely will be looking for this program to provide a certain amount of liquidity for them. CAPP understands that we are supporting Canadian companies, including in the oil and gas sector, and I would urge the members opposite to understand that as well. greg mclean: BlackRock is one of the world's largest investment companies, managing trillions of dollars of bonds. Is the Minister of Finance mindful of the conflict of interest that exists between the world's largest bond manager, BlackRock, and the advice it's giving the Bank of Canada on buying bonds? hon. Chair, the member opposite might know that the Bank of Canada is independent from the government, and as such we are not privy to those decisions and support the continuing independence of the Bank of Canada from the government. Will the minister endeavour to provide a more balanced program of benefits going forward for the sake of the entire Canadian economy, and not just the Brookfields, the BlackRocks and the big banks? hon. Chair, I think the notion that one sector is being advantaged versus another actually defies the facts. More than 550,000 loans have gone out to small businesses in the form of $40,000 loans per business over a very short time period. Canada is a leader in this regard, and we'll continue to support businesses all across Canada with loans and support as they need it to get ourselves through this difficult time. pierre poilievre: What is the total dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada? hon. Chair, the member for Carleton said that the previous government spent more on the Auditor General than the current government, and that is actually incorrect. pierre poilievre: What is the total dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada? hon. Chair, in fact, in the last full year of the Harper government, in 2014-15, the total spending on the Auditor General was $85.8 million. pierre poilievre: What is the dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada? hon. Chair, in the most recent year, 2018-19, the total spend was $92.4 million for the Auditor General, showing a 7.7% increase. Chair, I would just say it's shocking when people bring forward incorrect information to the House to try to make a point. Chair, we will continue to support Canadians through this time, with support not only for businesses but for individuals to get through and get a bridge to a better time. He's just the finance minister, after all, but what is the equity on the Government of Canada's balance sheet? hon. Chair, I would advise the member for Carleton to memorize those Auditor General figures for his next foray into the House of Commons. The minister doesn't know any of the three, so clearly he doesn't actually know anything about our balance sheet. According to the Auditor General, the negative net worth of our Government of Canada will be as much as $1 trillion by the end of this fiscal year. Can the minister, if he is familiar with any of these numbers, tell us if it is possible that his government will hit $1 trillion of debt this year? hon. Chair, I want to assure Canadians that our approach will be to continue to make investments on their behalf. That is available to us because of our strong fiscal position, but we will continue to take that approach, which we think is the appropriate one. Chair, I think what will happen as we do that is that we will allow ourselves to have a stronger economy at the end because of these investments. Chair, that these investments are not only supporting Canadians; they are supporting businesses so that we do have a strong economy and a strong fiscal position coming out of this. Chair, I will continue to focus our efforts, as we believe we should, on supporting Canadians through this time. Chair, we are continuing to make investments that we believe are prudent in the face of this economic challenge, supporting Canadians as we know we need to. pierre poilievre: What is the total dollar value of all the public and private debt in Canada? hon. Chair, we know that by supporting Canadians, by continuing to make investments, we will enable Canadiens to have less debt themselves because that the acting chair (mr. pierre poilievre: What is the total debt, public and private, as a share of GDP in Canada? hon. Chair, the important consideration here is that the federal government is taking a position that we should support Canadians so that they don't take on the debt themselves. The finance minister doesn't seem to know any of the basic numbers that would be required to govern the finances of the Government of Canada, so I will give him one last chance. Based on his latest briefings, what is the total size of Canada's national debt? If he doesn't know, can he have the humility and honesty just to say so? hon. Chair, I want to thank the member for slightly more time in this response to say that we think the best thing to do during this time period is to invest in Canadians. The government is in a fiscal position that enables us to take on debt at this time, which we think is appropriate to get our economy to a better position at the end of this crisis. I think we need to keep the interpreters in mind and the work they are doing, particularly when it comes to the flow and speed of questions. As the interpreters have already mentioned, they've suffered more injuries during this short time than during all of last year. bruce stanton): I'm not sure whether that constitutes a point of order, but it's certainly an important reminder for members of the House to respect interpreters' working conditions. Honourable members, please note too that pursuant to an order made on April 20, the House has been recalled

The government has been accommodating of small businesses in the past and will continue to do so, as emphasized by Bains. The threshold for individual companies has been increased, and further adjustments are expected. Bains also highlighted the efficacy of the CEBA program, which has already distributed 590,000 loans. Morneau stated that the government is committed to supporting Canadians and will face the challenges brought by the pandemic while supporting small businesses. Bains mentioned that the threshold for the program has been lowered to a 15% decline in revenue and businesses will have greater flexibility in comparing losses to more recent time periods. The government is actively listening to businesses and recognizes the need to be agile. Bains further claimed that $500 million has been allocated to arts and culture organizations, acknowledging the adverse effects of pandemic control efforts on these industries while prioritizing the health and safety of Canadians.

What were the statements made by Bains and Morneau regarding business loans, debt, the wage subsidy program, loan refinancing, and the arts, culture, and tourism industry?

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 12th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Members who have already participated in a virtual meeting of the special committee may actually not notice any change, except for the fact that some members are also participating from the floor of the House. An additional rubric, that of statements by members, was also added to the proceedings of the committee. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up in the chamber on either side of the Speakers chair. Sound amplification for virtual interventions will be available, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor sound or interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. For those of you joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by videoconference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their microphone and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificates off at the table once the petitions are presented. Chair, what an honour to be the first voice coming to you from the screens on either side of the Speaker of the House. I speak to you from SaanichGulf Islands on the traditional territory of the WSNEC people. I'm presenting a petition, number 431-00215, and it has been certified. The petitioners call on this House to take note of the fact that Canada is the only country with a universal health care system that does not include the provision of necessary prescription medications. They note that the system across Canada is a patchwork that leaves three million Canadians unprepared and uninsured to be able to purchase necessary medications. They call on the House assembled to put in place a system of universal national pharmacare, bringing down the cost of drugs through bulk purchasing. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr. This Senate public bill, been put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan in the Senate, would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad to receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It also has a mechanism by which somebody could be deemed inadmissible to Canada for being involved in the horrible practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill has been before various Parliaments for over 10 years, and petitioners are hopeful that this Parliament will be the one that finally takes action to address forced organ harvesting and trafficking. The second petition is put forward by folks who are concerned about Bill C-7, particularly the efforts by the government through Bill C-7 to remove vital safeguards that are currently associated with Canada's euthanasia regime. Petitioners are not happy about the fact that the government is trying to eliminate the 10-day reflection period and remove other safeguards that only four short years ago the government thought were essential for the euthanasia and assisted suicide system that they were putting in place. The petitioners call on the government to address that, and they are not supportive of these particular efforts to remove vital safeguards from that regime. the chair: Is anyone else presenting petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to statements by members. darrell samson (sackvilleprestonchezzetcook, lib.): Good afternoon, everyone. This spring has been a difficult one for Nova Scotia and the communities of SackvillePrestonChezzetcook. While residents have banded together to tackle the challenges presented by COVID-19, we have also had to mourn the passing of three remarkable local women: RCMP Constable Heidi Stevenson, well known by many in Cole Harbour and the surrounding areas; our own Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, who was based out of 12 Wing Shearwater; and Captain Jenn Casey of the Canadian Forces Snowbirds. These three brave women, who served with honour on land, at sea and in the air, represent the absolute best of us. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Canada needs a prime minister who will create jobs and opportunity, but instead we have a prime minister who is piling up crippling national debt. After five years with this debt, Prime Minister, Canada's national debt is set to hit $1 trillion, with almost nothing to show for it. Canadian workers need and deserve a prime minister who supports our energy sector and gets our natural resources and agriculture products to market, who supports small business and will make our tax system encourage job creation and growth, and who will bring advanced manufacturing jobs to Canada and keep the automotive industry growing. Most importantly, we need a Conservative prime minister who will get the government finances under control after the massive debt left by this prime minister. Since the COVID-19 outbreak, we've seen a disproportionate number of deaths in long-term care homes. I'm thankful for the Canadian Armed Forces who were deployed to the Altamont care home in my riding and four other facilities across the GTA. They include residents being given expired or improper doses of medication; not being cleaned or changed for a prolonged period of time; being forcibly fed, causing choking; being bed-bound for weeks; receiving inadequate nutrition, and much more. Chair, I call upon Premier Ford to place these five homes under a mandatory management order and to appoint a third party manager to address and rectify these violations. I also call upon the Premier to undertake an independent public inquiry into the tragedy we face in long-term care facilities across Ontario. Chair, we need to work with the provinces and territories to set national standards of care for the most vulnerable in our society. I hesitate to interrupt colleagues, but I'm concerned about the petition practice, which, as I understand it, is to summarize a petition but not make a speech. the chair: I will remind honourable members that when a petition is presented, we're expected to give a prcis and make it as concise as possible. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I would like to recognize the resilience of Quebeckers concerned for their jobs or their businesses during the COVID-19 crisis. That is why the Bloc Qubcois is demanding that the government present an economic update, and that it do so before June17. In closing, I would like to remind the government that one group is not really contributing to the public purse at the moment. I am talking about the tech giants, the GAFAM group, that have never before been used to the extent that they are now, and that are still not paying a cent in tax in Canada. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Peel region police, paramedic and firefighting services for keeping Bramptonians safe. Organizations such as the Khalsa Aid Society, the Interfaith Council of Peel, the Brampton YMCA, the Prayer Stone Peoples Church, Unity in the Community, Ste. Louise Outreach Centre, Knights Table, the Yogi Divine Society, Vraj Community Service, Regeneration Brampton and many more have made our community stronger during this difficult time. Like many Canadians, I was shocked by this report from the long-term care centres, including one in my riding. Chair, Canada's oil and gas sector is in crisis, made worse by five years of bad policies, red tape and barriers to pipelines. Active rigs dropped by 92% and tens of thousands of oil and gas workers lost their jobs, adding to the 200,000 since 2015. Energy is Canada's biggest investor, and exporting could lead the recovery if there are actions, not just words. On March 25, the finance minister promised help in hours or days, not weeks, but he's letting Canadians down. Sixty-three days later, small oil and gas companies still can't apply for BDC loans, and last week's large employer loan terms are predatory, with interest rates escalating to 14% by year five. The Liberals' death-by-delay tactics are doing exactly what foreign activists in other countries want: to shut down Canada's oil. lyne bessette (bromemissisquoi, lib.): Mr.Chair, in times of crisis, we stick together. In the last weeks, I have been calling volunteer action centres in my constituency so that they can tell me their news. I would like to take the time that I have to highlight the work that community organizations are doing tirelessly in my constituency. The crisis has made us realize the extent to which food banks and meals-on-wheels can not only relieve hunger, but also relieve thousands of shut-in seniors of their loneliness. Let me also highlight the devotion of the volunteers giving generously of their time, particularly the initiative of Mabel Hastings in the volunteer aid centre in Mansonville. Like me, she sends out a daily newsletter to keep the public informed about the many resources available for their support. COVID-19 is bringing out the best in our community and I am certain that, together, we will get through it. Chair, during the COVID-19 pandemic I have been inspired by the courageous work of so many essential workers. I want to thank everyone on the front lines for keeping us safe, keeping us fed and keeping our communities functioning. I want to make special note of one particular essential health care worker, a woman who is a quarantine manager with the Public Health Agency of Canada. Suchi, I love you, I am very proud of you and I thank you for all of the sacrifices you are making. I want to highlight another woman from my riding of ParkdaleHigh Park, Rachelle LeBlanc. When the pandemic broke, she saw the need for protective barriers for small shops in Parkdale, so she set about collecting donations. Rachelle's team has now delivered 25 free COVID protective shields to small shopkeepers in Parkdale, and the team is on track to building 100 more. It's the compassion of Canadians like Rachelle that gives meaning to the phrase we are all in this together. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): Mr.Chair, the school year has been shattered and our graduating classes must be proud of what they have achieved amid the COVID-19 pandemic. The current government has the obligation to promote the values that will lead you to become involved in your communities. I implore this government, which is unaware of the damage it is causing, to immediately announce all the positions that have already been approved under the Canada summer jobs program. Let us have confidence in our organizations, our companies, and let us support our youth, a rich resource that we must equip and motivate. I congratulate all the young graduates in the beautiful constituency of PortneufJacques-Cartier. greg fergus (hullaylmer, lib.): Mr.Chair, this pandemic lets us see what Canadians are made of. This coming Saturday, May30, more than 2,000Christians of all denominations are coming together virtually for prayer and for action. This Saturday, in more than 2,000 churches and homes, thousands of faith-filled Canadians are gathering to pray and act on those prayers as part of Stand United Canada. Then they are going to deliver much-needed support to at-risk Canadians who live in disadvantaged areas. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): The best way to safeguard the truth is to allow people to speak freely, but from the very beginning of this pandemic, the Liberals have silenced dissent. Early on, they propagated the notion that human-to-human transmission wasn't possible. It is undeniable that the Liberal government has put Canadians in danger by silencing alternative points of view and has spread misinformation. They are determining what is true and what is not, what is right and what is wrong, what is in and what is out. I call upon the government to restore the personal liberties that are granted under our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They provide employment and economic stability and are always the first to support community functions and activities, but small businesses have been particularly hard hit due to COVID-19. They have shut their doors temporarily, and now many worry they'll never be able to open their doors again. With the season cancellations at the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music, businesses in the tourism, hospitality, accommodation and retail sectors in PerthWellington are struggling. Every day, I talk to small business owners who can't access the Canada emergency business account, and others who find the convoluted commercial rent assistance program to be out of reach. Chair, the government needs to go back, fix these programs and ensure that support goes to the small businesses that need it. We can go backwards to so-called business as usual, with horrific conditions in long-term care homes, widespread inequality and no real action on climate change, or we can build for better. In Victoria, people in the community, organizations and municipal leaders have been calling for a new way forward. Organizations like Greater Victoria Acting Together; Common Vision, Common Action; and Kairos Victoria are exploring ideas for a sustainable and just recovery. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, in this time of pandemic, it is with heartfelt emotion that I want to highlight the excellent work of all the guardian angels at the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest. From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the entire staff, as well as the retirees who have come back to provide their assistance. I admire the managers, at all levels and in all services, working tirelessly so that their teams can answer the call in this difficult situation. My fellow managers and the management teams of the Support Program for the Autonomy of Seniors, both in home support and in residential care, you have my heartfelt congratulations for the herculean work you have done. My thoughts go particularly to Lyne Ricard and Vronique Proulx, managers working diligently with their teams of professionals to support the seniors living in intermediate resources, as we call them. I also warmly recognize the director of nursing services, Chantal Careau, who is facing the current challenge with passion and humanity. Once again, my congratulations go to the entire organization of the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest for their remarkable work in this difficult and very demanding time. john barlow (foothills, cpc): During the worst of times, we see the best in people. I cannot say enough about my constituents in Foothillsfront-line health care workers, grocery store clerks, restaurateurs, farmersfor all they are doing to keep our community safe and healthy. I want to shine a light on some of our hidden heroes, such as Owen Plumb, a grade 9 student in Okotoks who is using his 3D printer to build PPE for front-line health care workers. He partnered with the Rotary Club and Evergreen Solutions in Okotoks to help with the manufacturing and assembly. There is also Sam Schofield, the volunteer president of the Pincher Creek Chamber of Commerce, overnight built a resiliency website for COVID-19 by building training tools for businesses throughout his area. He also helped develop the Foothills Business Recovery Taskforce, which is a resource for businesses throughout southern Alberta in my riding. Finally, to the employees of Cargill Foods in High River, I know this has been a very difficult time and that many of you have lost loved ones. I want to say thank you for tirelessly doing all you can to protect our food supply and keep food on our table. scott simms (coast of bayscentralnotre dame, lib.): Thank you, Chair. I would like to take this time to salute those who go above and beyond the call of duty to provide care and comfort to others. In my 16 years in the House of Commons I have never experienced anything like this, when we find our lives are at a standstill and there is so much sorrow felt by families who suffer from the effects of COVID-19. Shanna and Fred Patey of Bishop's Falls, along with a few of their friends, spend hours next to the Trans-Canada Highway with just a barbeque and a cooler. There is also Mitch Strickland of Grand Falls-Windsor, who owns Appy's Diner. To all our front-line workers in grocery stores and delivery trucks, and to doctors, nurses, LPNs, paramedics, first responders and, of course, our brave women and men in the military, we will be forever grateful and blessed because of you. members: Hear, hear! the chair: That's all the time we have today for Statements by Members. Before going on, I just want to remind all the members that it is a one-minute statement, so if you don't mind, please time it before coming in because we do have limited time. I'm not here to judge anybody's way of speaking, but try to consider the translators and interpreters to make sure that everyone understands what is said, because they are working diligently to try to get both languages out. In sum, there are two things: please slow down and please make sure the statement is confined to one minute. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow the employees who are providing support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. In the early days of the pandemic and the lockdown that followed, Canadians were told by this government that programs would be rolled out very quickly and that gaps and shortcomings would be changed as time went on. While many Canadians are being let down by this government's response and its unnecessarily rigid programs, Conservatives identified solutions weeks ago, yet here we are, two and a half months later, and many of these programs still have not been improved. On April 26 the Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account could qualify for those types of programs. Chair, we knew from the beginning of this pandemic that we did need to move extremely quickly, and that's what we did. Eight million Canadians have had that as a replacement for paycheques lost because of COVID-19. We also moved forward on the wage subsidy and a range of other programs to support workers and small businesses. What we've done in terms of helping small businesses with the Canada emergency business account has had a massive impact on small businesses across the country, but we understand that certain companies and businesses have particularities that mean it's a little more difficult for them to qualify. We are working with them through their regional development agencies, and we encourage them to approach their local RDAs, which will be able to help them get the money they deserve. They're trying to get patted on the back for actions they took back in March, and yet they are letting so many Canadians down by not making these very simple changes. Will companies that have acquired another company still be allowed to use the wage subsidy to keep workers on the job, yes or no? right hon. We have moved forward on supporting as many of them as we possibly can, and we continue to work on filling gaps. I know the member opposite has talked to me a number of times about a tractor company in his riding. I can assure you that finance officials are engaged with that company to see if there's a way to make sure we're getting them the support they need. He can make this very clear, and save a lot of work, just by including the word acquisition. They're continuing to work with a range of businesses across the country that, for various reasons, are not able to apply for the help we have now. The government has set the parameters to qualify for the rent relief program for companies that have experienced a 70% revenue loss. There are untold thousands of businesses that have experienced a 50%, 55%, 60% or 65% loss that are ineligible but have no capacity to pay the rent. We called on the government weeks ago to have a more flexible sliding scale to allow more companies to access this program to keep more people on the job and more businesses open. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, our public servants and policy-makers have been moving creatively and quickly to try to get help to as many people as we possibly can, with our focus being on the people who need it the most. Obviously, this pandemic is affecting everyone and every business across the country in different ways, but our focus has been on ensuring that those who most need it are getting the help they can. We will, of course, continue to work with the parties opposite and all Canadians to ensure that we're getting help to everyone who needs it, but our focus has always been on the most vulnerable, first and foremost. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. If the Liberal Party of Canada had not taken advantage of the emergency programs, would it have laid off all its staff? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we recognized that a number of organizations and companies were facing difficulties because of COVID-19. People work for those organizations, as accountants, receptionists, assistants or labourers, and those people need to be supported. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party one of those organizations in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Any company or organization that can demonstrate a significant drop in its income, whether that be in donations, receipts, profits the chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blanchet. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: In the Magdalen Islands, fishing companies in difficulty and in need of assistance will not have the money that the Liberals are going to take. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have invested in assistance for fishers all across the country. Compared to that company, is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: If the program criteria establish that the Liberal Party is an organization in difficulty, does that mean that the criteria to determine whether an organization is in difficulty are poorly designed? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, all through this pandemic, our priority has been to be here for workers in difficulty so that they do not lose their jobs. yves-franois blanchet: Given the answers from the Prime Minister, let me ask this question: is the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: Restaurant owners on rue Ontario in Montreal feel that they will not make it through the crisis and that they will never open their doors again. By comparison, is the Liberal Party of Canada an organization in difficulty that will not open its doors again after the crisis? We can but hope. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established criteria for that program in order to help those working for various organizations. yves-franois blanchet: Is there a consensus in the Liberal Party caucus that the Liberal Party is in difficulty as an organization? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we are working every day to help Canadians and workers in difficulty. yves-franois blanchet: Does answering a question put the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, it is a pleasure to be here in the House and to answer questions from Canadians and from members of the opposition. yves-franois blanchet: You are going to answer a question from a Quebecker, I hope. Would those companies not deserve to be saved by the money that the supposedly struggling Liberal Party has taken? right hon. justin trudeau: I am always very happy to answer questions from all Canadians currently sitting in the House. yves-franois blanchet: If the Prime Minister is so happy to answer questions, I hope he will be delirious with joy to answer this one. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established a program to help those working in organizations and who could lose their jobs because of COVID-19. The conditions of seniors as outlined by the military were appalling, but seniors need more than just compassionate words. Will the Prime Minister stop hiding behind excuses and actually show leadership to fix long-term care? right hon. It lays out the divisions of powers and responsibilities, and we respect the provinces' jurisdiction over long-term care facilities. However, from the very beginning, we have indicated our willingness to support the provinces on this very important issue. We need to make sure our seniors right across the country are properly cared for, which is why we sent in the military and why we are there to help the provinces. Philpott, said, We need to stop using jurisdiction as an excuse to not have federal leadership. Now, we know from the military report that staff were afraid to use vital equipment because of the cost. Chair, over the past couple of days I've had very good conversations with the premiers of both Quebec and Ontario on this important issue. I look forward to discussing issues around long-term care with all the premiers of the provinces and territories tomorrow evening as well. Ontarians and indeed people right across the country are deeply preoccupied by what they've seen going on. jagmeet singh: The military report found that cockroaches and flies were present and that food was rotten. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards so that long-term care is governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. Chair, our priority right now is ensuring that we are supporting the provinces in their need to make sure that all seniors are protected right across the country in all those institutions. Going forward, we absolutely will need to have more conversations about how we can ensure that every senior across the country is properly supported. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards and for long-term care to be governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. This is something we all take very seriously, and all orders of government will work together to make sure that right now, and going forward, we improve our systems. We need a commitment at the federal level that the Prime Minister will push for things that people need, which is to remove profit from long-term care and to establish national standards. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, I will always be here to stand up for Canadians in all different situations. We are going to work with the provinces, fully respecting jurisdictions, to make sure that, all across the country, Canadians in long-term care are supported as required and receive the services and the care they deserve. The COVID-19 crisis should not be used as an excuse to avoid presenting solutions to the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls committee, in particular by delaying action on the calls for justice. This is the same government that would not recognize it as a genocide, the same government that delayed the United Nations declaration legislation and the same government that is still taking indigenous kids to court. Will this government commit to core funding for indigenous services to help women and girls and ensure that the calls for justice are implemented without delay? right hon. Chair, we continue to work very closely with partners on the calls for justice even as we act in many areas, including better funding for shelters and for victims of domestic violence. We will continue to work with those partners, but people will understand that many of those partners are very focused right now on helping front-line workers, not on establishing the report. We will continue to work with them on the report, but the COVID-19 situation has made that more difficult. the chair: I want to thank the honourable members who are shouting time, but I do have a timer here, and I am taking care of it. He was just talking about the tragic conditions in long-term care facilities in Ontario, and there was a report out from Quebec today. I want to commend the Canadian Armed Forces for witnessing these appalling conditions, putting it in the context of a report, and providing care to our loved ones in these long-term care facilities. The government is saying they didn't receive the report from the department until May 22, but this report came out on May 14. I then forwarded it to the Minister of Public Safety on the 22nd, and that report was then given to the provincial authorities very quickly afterwards. james bezan: I trust that you got the report on the 21st, but the report was written on the 14th, so what happened with that report for seven days? Why wasn't it acted upon? Could you just explain that? Our loved ones were at risk during that entire time. Chair, as we stated, this report was done and given up through the chain of command, and the appropriate leadership did their due diligence. Again, I want to commend our Canadian Armed Forces members for not only the tremendous work they are doing but also for doing their duty. james bezan: That report from Ontario documented appalling conditions, horrific care that was being given to the clients, and also the way that the staff conducted themselves. Minister, do you believe that the infection could have been transmitted from staff to our soldiers serving in long-term care facilities because proper protocols were not being followed? hon. Chair, when it comes to any type of activities that we send our Canadian Armed Forces on, we do our due diligence to make sure that we have the right protocols in place and the appropriate training. This is why we have taken the time to make sure our folks not only did the appropriate training but had the appropriate equipment. We have the right protocols in place, and we will make sure that our members who are infected by COVID will get the appropriate treatment as well. james bezan: Does the Minister of National Defence believe that our soldiers serving in Operation Laser, who have put themselves in harm's way in battling the COVID virus as a war, deserve to have hazard pay benefits? hon. Chair, when it comes to looking after Canadian Armed Forces personnel, yes, we are actually in the process as we speak of making sure that our members have the appropriate hazard pay. I would finally like to come back to the issue of the timeline from May 14 to May 21, when that report was in the department for one week. Will the minister take responsibility for that report sitting on someone's desk for seven days and not being turned over to the proper authorities? hon. Chair, I want to make it very clear: When it comes to the observations that were made, those were immediately reported to the appropriate management of the care facilities and to the appropriate links within the province. At the same time, this report was being compiled and pushed up to the chain of command, and they did their due diligence. As I stated, it was given to us, and on the same day it was forwarded to the Minister of Public Safety, who immediately then sent it to the provincial authorities. Chair, as stated, this will not only be given to the proper authorities but the appropriate steps will be taken now. rosemarie falk (battlefordslloydminster, cpc): Thank you, Chair. Yesterday it was revealed that the Minister of Digital Government has been promoting a fundraising campaign to sue Global News for their story criticizing the Chinese Communist Party. Why is the minister using her authority to support the Communist Party of China and threatening our media and freedom of expression? hon. WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chair: Now we'll go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister aware of the efforts that the United Front carries out on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party to influence how Canadians view the People's Republic of China? hon. The participation in the WeChat group, much like Facebook, is guided by posted the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister an active participant in the efforts by the Communists to muzzle a Canadian journalist and deprive Canadians of the facts about China? hon. I will say that the individual in question posted something outside of the guidelines of my WeChat group and is no longer the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Falk, I just want to point out that we do have interpreters listening and trying to interpret. joyce murray: I think the member knows very well that the people who post on WeChat are free to post what they choose within certain guidelines. rosemarie falk: Chair, Sam Cooper is an investigative Canadian journalist who has uncovered many different criminal rackets that can be linked back to Beijing. joyce murray: As we all know, community outreach is a very important part of the work of a member of Parliament. WeChat is one of many social media sites regularly used by members the chair: We go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Chair, when will the minister apologize to Sam Cooper and Global News? hon. Chair, I have been very clear that I do not share the views of the person who posted on my WeChat site, who operated outside of my the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Chair, I want to assure the member that we are always vigilant in any foreign interference in our national security or issues of political interference in our society. It's monitored carefully by the national security establishment, according to the law as it exists in this country, and we will remain vigilant. Will the Liberals hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated this part of the charter? hon. I think, as the minister has made very clear, she was not involved in this process and has no control over the individual who posted that matter. Will the government hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated their part of the charter? hon. Chair, I want to assure the member that our government remains committed to the rule of law and we will always work tirelessly to uphold the laws of this country. rosemarie falk: Still, was that a yes or a no? I'm not hearing a yes or a no. Chair, to answer the question for the House and to assure the member opposite that our government will always remain committed to the rule of law. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. bill morneau (minister of finance): Mr.Chair, we continue to be transparent with our measures. Of course, we want to make sure that our investments, our economy the chair: The floor is yours, Mr.Deltell. grard deltell: Let me ask my question to the honourable Minister of Finance once more, since he is talking about transparency. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, the Minister of Finance may not know what the deficit is, but one great Canadian does know. Could the Minister of Finance be very clear, very fluid and, above all, very transparent with Canadians? What is Canada's deficit? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I want to be very clear with Canadians: our economic situation is very difficult. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, with all due respect to the Minister of Finance, let me point out that, though he is not very clear, Canada's Parliamentary Budget Officer was clear yesterday. Why does the government not have the courage to state it clearly, as the Parliamentary Budget Officer did yesterday? hon. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, I know that the Minister of Finance is very good with figures. Perhaps he could comment on the statement that the Parliamentary Budget Officer made yesterday, that the emergency assistance must have an end date, and if it does not, we are heading to levels of taxation that have not been seen in this country for generations. What is the government going to do to make sure that Canadians will not be overtaxed after this crisis? hon. When we have more information, we will the chair: Mr.Deltell, you have the floor. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, will the minister commit not to raise taxes after the crisis? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I have said several times that we do not have a plan to raise taxes. grard deltell: Finally a clear answer! However, I'm not convinced that he will apply it. In fact, the Parliamentary Budget Officer himself has said that there isn't much ammunition left without shifting into a large structural deficit, which can lead directly to tax increases. If the Minister of Finance can't even say today what the deficit is today, how can he be credible when he says that he won't raise taxes? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I think what's most important is that during this pandemic, Canadians and companies across the country need the Government of Canada's help. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, all observers are expecting an economic update to know where we're going. Chair, the United States, Australia, India, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and Vietnam have created an economic prosperity group to diversify some of their key supply chains away from China. Indeed, we have been working diligently with all of these countries to make sure that we are keeping global supply chains open during this critical time. I think everyone agrees that keeping supply chains open for medical goods, critical agriculture and essential goods is absolutely essential and the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, this government is refusing to come to terms with what COVID-19 will mean for the future of international trade. Why is Canada not at the table with our largest trading partner protecting the viability of our international supply chains and capitalizing on the opportunities of others doing the same? the chair: Before we go to the minister, one of the members has his mike still on, and I would ask that he turn it off. Chair, Canada has unprecedented access to a number of markets around the world because of the extraordinary agreements that we have made to provide access to customers in those international markets. I have had two meetings with G20 trade ministers on the importance of keeping supply chains the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, is this payback for the Prime Minister snubbing these countries at the original TPP signing? hon. Chair, we have a CPTPP arrangement with these countries, and we are looking forward to making sure that we get Canadian businesses growing into those markets. will begin applying tariffs at the beginning of next year on Canadian exports such as seafood, beef and cars. I want to assure Canadian businesses that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the U.K. Chair, after CUSMA, this government guaranteed to the trade committee that they would publish the objectives of any new trade agreement. Chair, we look forward to working to ensure that those objectives are published as we get into future trade discussions. Chair, the resignation of the WTO director-general at this unprecedented time is concerning for the international trade community. Is the government committed to supporting a DG candidate who is dedicated to the massive reforms needed to get the WTO functioning again? hon. The Ottawa group, led by Canada, is working with like-minded countries on the reform of the WTO. I look forward to making sure that we are leading the way on those discussions with like-minded the chair: Mr. Has the government sought out and received assurances from the United States that no such action will apply to Canadian cattle? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. Chair, we have an excellent assurance of our trade with the United States, which is our new NAFTA trade agreement that we have negotiated, thanks to the unprecedented co-operation across this country. Chair, going forward post-COVID, there are a lot things that will be changing in supply chains. What is this government doing proactively to look at opportunities in these supply chains that Canadian businesses can take advantage of? hon. Chair, we continue to work with countries around the globe to ensure that Canada's supply chains and those global supply chains, particularly for essential goods, for agricultural products, for medical supplies, continue to remain open. Chair, on the agriculture side, canola farmers would like to know the status of canola going into China. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, I want to assure my colleague that we are continuing to work with our industry representatives, our allies and our trading partners in China. cathy mcleod (kamloopsthompsoncariboo, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Senior Canadian bureaucrats received very credible reports in early January that China was procuring and hoarding PPE. Chair, from the very beginning of the outbreak in early January we were aware of the challenges our health sector would face, and we immediately began to work with the provinces and territories to understand what the need would be and how we could best prepare. cathy mcleod: In April, the minister stated there were not enough supplies in the national emergency stockpile. Can she explain why she approved a donation of 16 tonnes of PPE for China on January 31, claiming it would not compromise our supply? She can't have it both ways. Chair, we are operating in a highly competitive global environment, and the reality is that we need to make sure we have multiple complementary supply chains operating at the same time, which we have been doing in the past weeks and months, to ensure our front-line health care workers have the supplies they need to keep Canadians safe. cathy mcleod: Unfortunately, this question was directed to the health minister, referencing things she actually stated in terms of the availability of our supplies. Before the she signed off on the donationand it was the health minister who signed off on the donationdid she consult with the health ministers in the provinces and territories? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, provinces and territories have their own stockpiles, which of course they use to prepare for incidences of outbreak and other illnesses across their jurisdictions. We've worked very closely with the provinces and territories since the beginning of the outbreak to make sure we can provide any particular additional support. cathy mcleod: Health care workers are now having to look at modified full-face snorkels as an alternative to N95 masks. Did it not occur to the minister that our hospitals and care homes could have used that PPE she shipped out, providing a longer opportunity for them to also get procurement done? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, the equipment that was donated when China was in its outbreak was an important donation of nearly expired or expired goods that it was in desperate need of in its effort to try to contain the virus. As the member opposite knows, we've been able to work successfully with provinces and territories to ensure they have what they need. Chair, I would suggest that during February and March our hospitals would have consumed that almost-expired product very efficiently, but I want to move on to another topic. When defending the sale of 22 seniors' homes to the Chinese government, the Prime Minister stated that we have a strong regulatory regime that imposes rigorous standards. Was the Prime Minister completely oblivious to the risks, or was he just too anxious to please the Chinese government when he sold those 22 homes? hon. Chair, the homes the member opposite is referring to are in the province of B.C., and I have to commend the province for the early work it did to protect seniors in those long-term care homes. As she knows, the review we did was entirely separate from the standards to which the province holds the care homes. cathy mcleod: The Prime Minister does not have authority over seniors' homes, which he has clearly stated, but he does have authority over the act in which he approved the sale. Chair, the long-term care homes in each province fall within the jurisdiction of their own particular act, and those provinces and territories are responsible for fulfilling the inspections required under that act. cathy mcleod: Under the Investment Canada Act, the government is obligated to review the sale for compliance. Since the government approved the sale, it is complicit in the care of our seniors in this country hon. That is why we follow the appropriate steps, outlined under the Investment Canada Act, to make sure that any measures we take keep seniors and their well-being first and foremost. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): Mr.Chair, during the pandemic, the government has given money to companies that don't pay a cent in tax because they use tax havens. During the pandemic, the government gave money to Air Canada, but Air Canada never reimbursed customers who did not get the services they paid for. Is the moral of the story that the government thinks that dipping into the pockets of taxpayers to spend money carelessly is no big deal? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, the fight against tax evasion is a priority for our government. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, when I see that it's the Minister of National Revenue answering me, I don't feel like buying a lottery ticket. The Liberal Party used two airplanes in its last election campaign, which seems to indicate that it isn't short of money. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we think it's very important to protect employees across the country and in every economic sector that's experiencing a significant drop in income. That's the approach we've taken to protect people and to ensure that there will be jobs in the future. alain therrien: It's especially important to protect the employees who work for the Liberals to ensure their re-election, yet the Liberal Party has raised more than $7million since the last election. We think that this principle is very important and that this approach must be maintained in order to have a better job market in the future. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, we still don't know exactly how much money the Liberals took from the cookie jar. How many SMEs could have been saved with the $1million that the Liberals took out of the jar and took away from SMEs? hon. We are protecting hundreds of thousands of SMEs through the emergency wage subsidy, the Canada emergency response benefit and all our programs. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, I will propose a choice of answers, or I won't get any. The first possible answer is that when the Liberals brought in the emergency wage subsidy, they set parameters allowing them to use it. The second is that when the Liberals saw the Conservative Partywhich is as rich as they are, but also sanctimonious and self-righteoustake advantage of the subsidy, they thought they could do it too. The third possible answer is that the Liberals hadn't planned to use the subsidy, but they pounced on the cookie jar when they saw it, because that's what they do. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we continue to think it is very important to protect employees in every sector of the economy and across Canada. That's our approach, and I believe it's the right one to protect and preserve jobs across the country during a pandemic. the chair: We are now going to suspend the proceedings for a few seconds to allow the employees who provide support for the meeting to replace each other safely. Chair, when the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces stepped in to provide support to five long-term care homes in Ontario at the request of the premier, they released a report that outlined their findings in detail. Almost 1,000 seniors so far have lost their lives in long-term care homes in Ontario alone, over 25 of them in my riding of MississaugaErin Mills. Can the Minister of Health please update the House on how our federal government is working with the provinces and territories to prevent further tragic occurrences from happening at long-term care homes and to ensure that our most vulnerable seniors are properly looked after and cared for? hon. I believe all Canadians were deeply horrified to read the details from the Canadian Armed Forces on the conditions in long-term care homes in Ontario. I had a very good conversation with my provincial and territorial counterparts last night about the work we can do at a national level to support their important work. We'll continue to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that they get the care and dignity they deserve. I will sadly report that my community of Pickering has experienced the largest number of deaths at a single COVID-19 outbreak location anywhere in this country. Yesterday, we received the horrific report from the Canadian Armed Forces detailing what they witnessed at Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes' Grace Manor in Brampton. The loved ones of those who have passed away, as well as the homes' workers, have asked for a full public inquiry from the Ontario government. I know that the responsibility for these facilities falls within provincial jurisdiction, but on behalf of our communities, can the Minister of Health update us on the work she is doing to ensure that the Ontario government takes action immediately and initiates a full, independent, non-partisan public inquiry and reverses its decision to create a government-led commission that won't even start until September? hon. Chair, I would say that all Canadians were shocked and horrified to hear about the conditions that existed in these particular care homes. We're so grateful to the members of the armed forces who not only improved conditions but also reported them quickly and appropriately to ensure amelioration of those conditions for those particular individuals. We also know that there are seniors all across the country who are struggling with care and with the appropriate level of care. I stand committed to working with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that we do better as a society. We know that there's a role we can play at the federal level with advice, with guidance, with support and, yes, with investments. We look forward to having those conversations about how best we can improve the care for all seniors amongst us. Canadians were horrified to hear the report yesterday from our armed forces about the appalling conditions experienced by seniors in our long-term care homes. Page after page detailed the filth, neglect, abuse and danger our seniors in care are exposed to on a daily basis. Shockingly they face injury and death through missed medications, expired medications, unsterile devices and violations of basic contagion rules to stop the spread of COVID-19. Given that evidence of possible criminal conduct was contained in the military's report, will the minister refer this matter to the RCMP for investigation immediately? hon. We understand in long-term care facilities both seniors and persons living with a disability face unique challenges, and the findings of this report are in fact deeply concerning and completely unacceptable. Considering the severity of this report, we promptly shared it with the Province of Ontario, and the Province of Ontario has initiated an investigation based on the report's findings. Their investigation includes alerting the province's chief coroner who has the authority to alert the police of jurisdiction. We will continue to work with the province to protect those living in long-term care facilities, and we continue to support them through the deployment of our outstanding Canadian Armed Forces and in our partnership with the Red Cross. Chair, that's a shocking answer considering there's clear evidence of criminal conduct and negligence in this. That this federal government is not taking immediate steps to refer this to the nation's RCMP is unacceptable. COVID-19 has exposed critical vulnerabilities across Canada's entire network of long-term care facilities. Not a single province or territory currently meets the benchmark of 4.1 hours of hands-on care per day. As a result Canada has the worst record of COVID-19 deaths in long-term care among 14 comparable countries, with over 80% of Canadian fatalities occurring in these facilities. Chair, the member opposite is exactly correct when he says that those who are hardest hit in terms of losing their lives and the negative effects of COVID are those who are living in long-term care homes. He's also correct when he indicates that COVID-19 has shown us what many of us have known for a long time, that we need to do better in long-term care and supports for seniors. As the member knows, we started those steps some four years ago or so when we began to make incredible investments in aging at home. We know that is one part of the solution, but we have to do better for those seniors who need a higher level of care. I'm working with my colleagues at the provinces and territories to make sure that we come up with a solution that will truly result in better standards for all. Chair, what we need is binding national standards, just like we set through the Canada Health Act in the health care sector generally. Gross fecal contamination, filthy medical equipment, insect infestations, ignoring patient cries for hourswe would never tolerate these conditions in Canada's hospitals. Will the minister move to bring long-term care facilities under the Canada Health Act, or similar legislation, with formal funds tied to acceptable standards of care for our seniors, just like we do for hospitals? hon. Chair, the member shares the disgust and concern of so many Canadians across the country, not only those who have read the report but many of those who have struggled to provide care to elders in those long-term care homes, regardless of the province in which they live. We know that collectively, at all levels of government, we must do better for those people who cared for us and nurtured us all of those years. The member has my commitment that I will work with provinces and territories to find a solution forward to ensure that every person has the right to age with dignity and safety. Davies, you have 15 seconds for another question, a short one, and leave time for a response. These failures are the product of systemic neglect often motivated by prioritizing profit over the provision of adequate care. Does the minister agree that we should not be putting profits above the health care needs of Canada's seniors? hon. Chair, I believe that, when we commit to taking care of people, we must do so with the utmost care that is required. We must all work together to protect those people in our lives who are most vulnerable, whether they be seniors, children or others. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. According to Vaughn Palmer in an editorial in the Vancouver Sun regarding the secret Wet'suwet'en deal, Palmer writes: The hereditary chiefs calculated the two governments would sign despite the objections from the elected chiefs. Can the minister describe another situation in which the federal government negotiated a secret deal of this magnitude with unelected people? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): I thank the member for his ongoing concern and I want to remind him that actually it is in keeping with the Supreme Court decision of 1997 that we were to now begin those conversations with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs who took the case to the Supreme Court. As we've said many times, this is not an agreement; this is an MOU that establishes the path forward for the substantive discussions towards a final agreement, which would describe the future governance and the implementation of Wet'suwet'en rights and title. Chair, if it is a shared commitment, why on the eve of the signing ceremony did the four elected chiefs denounce the hereditary chiefs for keeping them in the dark? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it's really important that the member understand that there was a process for the hereditary chiefs to go back to their communities and discuss with them. Any agreement after the good work that will happen now would have to go back and seek the approval of all of the communities. Chair, the Burns Lake Band members are openly wondering if they're still a band or if the few unelected hereditary chiefs will control everything now. Minister, can you assure them that going forward you will honour their concerns and take the time to listen? the acting chair (mr. carolyn bennett: Actually, the honourable member knows that the next steps include the further and ongoing engagement by the Wet'suwet'en in their house groups and that will include the six elected chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en nation, their community members and many others. Cynthia Joseph, a chief councillor with the Hagwilget First Nation says the MOU between Ottawa, the province and the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs was only shared with her community members on May 9, two days after it was published in the media. carolyn bennett: Walking the path of reconciliation means that we work with our partners and there is a way that they do the work within their communities. It is going to be an agreement to begin the work, but any final agreement is going to have to be approved by all members of the nation in terms of developing a consensus for the agreement the acting chair (mr. Does the minister have any concerns regarding claims by several former female hereditary chiefs that they were stripped of their hereditary status because they didn't agree with the men? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it is going to be really important that the work take place within the Wet'suwet'en nation to determine their future governance, to determine their way of working with Canada and to make sure the acting chair (mr. For some reason it seems to be a problem to stand up for these hereditary female chiefs who had their titles taken away. Does the minister plan on recognizing band council resolutions denying the authority of hereditary chiefs to sign any future agreements without consent of the elected chiefs and the 3,000 members within the Wet'suwet'en they represent? hon. carolyn bennett: I think the member must understand that, as we begin the work, the nation will do its work and then we will come to the table to determine what the governance would be. Will it be a hybrid model like at Heiltsuk, like Ktunaxa, like some of the communities developing their constitutions, developing their laws and deciding how they will determine their own governance and that partnership with Canada? the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The current restrictions on non-essential travel at the border do not prevent people from claiming refugee protection if they have family in Canada. We have heard from many constituents and members of Parliament from right across the country who are expressing concern about non-status spouses being denied entry into the country because their travel is deemed to be non-essential. I've recently been in touch with all of the provinces and territories because I think it's very important that we have their support for any changes the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus: If I understand correctly, Mr.Minister, you are talking to provincial representatives, but a case like that of ChantalTremblay, for instance, is unacceptable. For two months now, she has been trying to bring her spouse to Canada, but it isn't working. Is there a way to issue a directive to border services officers that married spousesit's often marriages with Americanscan cross the border to join their spouses in Canada? hon. bill blair: Just to be very clearagain, I thank the member opposite for the opportunity to clarify thisit is never our intention to separate families, but at the same time, we have imposed appropriate and necessary restrictions on non-essential travel. Our border services officers inquire of everyone coming to that border about the nature of their travel, and for non-citizens who come to that border seeking entry into Canada, if their entry is deemed non-essential, then they exercise their discretion not to allow the acting chair (mr. However, 100,000foreigners have entered Canada, even though the border is supposedly closed. How does the minister explain the fact that 100,000people arrived in Canada by plane? hon. We have imposed very significant restrictions on non-essential travel, but of course there are circumstances where individuals come to this country and their entry into Canada is deemed essential. For example, someone who is providing medical services and coming into Canada to provide those services would be deemed essential, because there is a great need among Canadians for those services. As you can see by the numbers, we have had a very significant reduction in the travel of all non-Canadians to Canada over the past two months. pierre paul-hus: So the minister confirms that the 100,000people who arrived by air were providing a service considered essential to Canada. I'm not talking about the people who crossed the land border, but the people who came to Canada by air. bill blair: What I can tell you is that at all points of entry, including our air borders, we apply the standard that the travel must be deemed essential, and that determination is utilized to see if a person is eligible to enter into the country. pierre paul-hus: We're now learning that the Correctional Service of Canada's investigation into the murder of MarylneLevesque is suspended due to the COVID-19 outbreak. Can the minister direct the Correctional Service of Canada to resume the investigation into the death of MarylneLevesque? hon. bill blair: Again, I thank the member for the question, because we know the concern of the people of Quebec, and the family of Ms. That's why we asked the Parole Board and the Correctional Service of Canada to convene a board of investigation. Clearly, during COVID transmission, the ability to conduct that investigation and to interview all of the witnesses became extremely difficult and has been temporarily suspended, but at the very earliest opportunity we remain resolute to resume that investigation and get to the bottom of it to provide the answers that the family deserves. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, victims of crime are one of the segments of the population most affected by the crisis. For the first time in its history, and to add insult to injury, the government has cancelled all activities related to Victims and Survivors of Crime Week, which was to take place next week. bill blair: Again, at the earliest days of COVID, until arrangements could be put in place, there were restrictions on victims participating. We have put the systems in place to allow victims to present their evidence virtually, either by video or by phone, to ensure that their voices are heard in these important things. We very much respect and support the role of victims in these determinations, and we're making every effort to ensure that they can participate. Chair, yesterday I asked the Minister of Small Business how many business credit availability guarantees were issued by EDC, and I didn't get a number. Money from this program is flowing, and businesses across the country are receiving the important support that they need. Chair, these are large loans, and they require important due diligence and adjudication by the financial institutions. mary ng: I want to assure the member that we're going to do everything possible to support businesses and workers during this very important time. james cumming: How many businesses have received funding under the BCAP co-lending program since March? hon. mary ng: The lending programs, particularly the program to help small businesses, have really helped lots of businesses. Over 630,000 loans have been issued, and this is really helping those the acting chair (mr. james cumming: Unfortunately, lots is not an answer for the businesses that I'm trying to talk to. Can you tell me, for the CEBA changes that were recently announced, when will we be able to see people who have income through a dividend able to apply? hon. Those small businesses that will meet the expanded CEBA criteria are working very diligently with the financial institutions to make sure that they can get access to those loans as quickly as possible. mary ng: The financial institutions are working very hard to make sure that they can make this available to businesses. mary ng: We will work very hard and very diligently to make sure that these businesses and those sole proprietors are supported. mary ng: There is nothing more important than making sure these businesses weather the difficult time of COVID-19, and our measures are the acting chair (mr. mary ng: Today, over 630,000 businesses have received the support to do things like pay for salaries, the 25% top-up for the wage subsidy, pay for rent and pay for insurance and utilities. james cumming: How many dollars are left in the program so businesses can have some certainty that the program will be available for some time? hon. mary ng: I think you will see that the businesses across the country that I have talked to really appreciate that the government has stepped up to help them during this difficult time. These include women with businesses, indigenous-owned businesses and those small businesses all across our communities, all across the country, that are getting the necessary help. mary ng: There are 630,000 businesses that are getting help, and thousands more businesses will be getting help with the expanded criteria. We're going to keep doing the work that we need to help our businesses across this country through this difficult time. james cumming: I heard from a constituent in my riding that they waited for over four hours on the portal for CECRA. james cumming: Finally, the Prime Minister yesterday said that a list of all organizations that have been receiving CEWS will be made public. mary ng: We have committed to making sure that those companies taking the wage subsidy program will be listed publicly. The Canadian Coast Guard is doing a search at this moment following the loss of a vessel off the coast of Newfoundland. From my community, which is a seafaring, fishing community, I just want to put my thoughts out there to the folks of Newfoundland. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): Thank you, Mr. I want to thank my colleague for his comments with regard to the tragic accident off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, where we saw the loss of life in a fishing accident. We have made available over half a billion dollars to processors and harvesters to make sure they can weather this storm. We have made sure that the harvesters are able to access the harvester benefit as well as the grant, recognizing the unique nature of their business and how they are not able to access some of our other programs. Chair, to continue along this vein for a moment, we are still looking at unstable markets for a longer period of time. The plants are filling up, and harvesters are worried that they might stop buying product before the season is complete. What can the fishermen expect, or what kinds of programs can they expect, if the season goes bust? hon. We also know that because of the decline in markets, we've had to make accommodations for the processing sector in order to help them be better able to support the harvesters. We have put in $62.5 million, which is allowing the processors to increase capacity in their refrigeration and freezers so that they will continue to be able to purchase product. As I said earlier, we will continue to monitor the situation and make sure we do everything possible to support our harvesters. Chair, I don't know whether this next question will go to the Minister of DFO or the Minister of Transport. For those who are far-sighted or nearsighted, you just have to put on your glasses to correct it. I don't know about space shuttles, but who knows? You can now wear colour-corrected lenses, but Transport Canada still does not recognize these for use. We have medical standards with respect to a number of different kinds of transportation-related jobs for pilots, mariners and those kinds of occupations, which have to be respected. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, the eligibility criteria for financial support include the need to demonstrate a significant loss of income during the months of March and April, yet several SMEs in the tourism industry can't qualify because their operations start with the tourist season, in late May or early June. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, before accessing the emergency wage subsidy, applicants must meet important criteria. However, as we explained last week, we will be adjusting the wage subsidy until the end of August, and we will be reviewing the criteria. bruce stanton): We're going to go to the west coast and the member for SaanichGulf Islands. My colleague, Jenica Atwin from Fredericton, held a press conference this morning in which she used the term echo pandemic. My question to the minister is this: Will we see direct funding to community mental health services as urgently requested by the Canadian Mental Health Association? hon. Chair, I read the honourable member's colleague's letter just today, and I want to reassure all members that we have invested in mental health supports for Canadians, obviously before the pandemic hit but certainly since we've been living with the pandemic. I'd like to remind all members to direct their constituents to the wellnesstogether.ca website and portal. There Canadians can find online resources, as well as connections to real and alive counsellors and other professionals who can help them with their various concerns. That's not just unprecedented over thousands of years; that's unprecedented over the last one million years. The recognized parties in the House have established standing committees to work, but not the committee on the environment. When will the recognized parties remember the June 2019 emergency resolution that we are in a climate emergency, and start making sure that we hit 2020 commitments under the Paris Agreement to improve our targets? hon. We realize that along with the COVID pandemic, which is the major problem that exists in the world today, there is another problem as well that affects the entire planet, and that is the problem associated with climate change. elizabeth may: My next question will be for Minister Blair, but as an aside, I will say that last answer completely fails to meet the legal requirements of the Paris Agreement to file a new target this year. To save some time, Minister Blair, let's pretend to go back to the questions from my colleague MP Paul-Hus and to your last answer. Could the minister please put out a directive, advice to every CBSA agent on the ground, that when a non-status entry point sees a non-status direct relativehusband, wife, child of a Canadian citizenthat relative be deemed to be entering Canada for an essential purpose? hon. At the same time, we've been working with the provinces and territories, listening to the concerns of Canadians about ensuring that travel across our international border, particularly with the United States, is limited to essential travel. As I've indicated, I've had a number of important conversations and necessary conversations with our provincial and territorial partners. I believe there is a consensus on the right way forward on this, and we're working very diligently to put it in place. I believe our border services officers have been doing an extraordinary job for us in the exercise of their discretion. At the same time, they have been doing the important work of ensuring the health and safety of Canadians at our border. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): Four out of the five homes listed in the armed forces report were for-profit. Will the minister admit that the for-profit model is failing our loved ones and commit to getting profits out of long-term care? hon. patty hajdu: As the member opposite notes, nobody can read that report or hear those stories without feeling absolute horror and disgust and without demanding better for the elders in our lives. As I have mentioned many times in the House, our government remains committed to working with provinces and territories to ensure that every elder person in our community can age with dignity and in safety. Will the minister make sure that the focus of long-term care homes is taking care of seniors and not taking care of owners' bank accounts? hon. patty hajdu: As the member will obviously know, long-term care remains in the jurisdiction of provinces and territories, and there is legislation that rules them as such. As the member also knows, we have stood by Ontario and all of the other provinces and territories throughout this outbreak. jenny kwan: Is the minister refusing to answer the question because she agrees that profit should come before care? hon. patty hajdu: I think it's unfortunate that the member is trying to place words in my mouth. What I do agree with, though, is that long-term care needs to be reformed, and I think all provinces and territories know, and all Canadians know, that we have to do a better job. Is she willing to defend for-profit care for our seniors? Is she in favour of for-profit private health care too? hon. patty hajdu: What I am willing to defend is the right for all Canadians to age with safety and dignity. jenny kwan: To the minister, what is the difference? Why sell out the care of our seniors? Will she commit that she will take profit out of long-term care? hon. Chair, I think the member opposite knows that the only way to actually reform long-term care is to work with provinces and territories, in fact, all levels of government, to ensure that the people who spent their lives caring for and nurturing us can end their lives with caring and nurturing the acting chair (mr. Since the government owns these homes, has the military been sent in there to see what's happening to seniors under their care? hon. Chair, we know that it is important to work with all of the provinces and territories under whose jurisdiction it falls to protect the seniors within those care homes. That's what we've been doing since the beginning of the outbreak of the coronavirus, and that's what we'll continue to do to protect the lives of seniors and strengthen their protection. Chair, work with the provinces and territories to have a longer-term plan so that all seniors can age with dignity and safety. What is the government doing to ensure the standards of care in these Revera homes that they own? hon. Chair, as I have repeatedly said, the jurisdiction for care of long-term care homes falls within the provincial and territorial realm. Chair, we have been there for provinces and territories since the outbreak of the coronavirus, and as the member opposite has clearly or likely heard the Prime Minister say, we will stand with provinces and territories as all elders have the right to age with dignity the acting chair (mr. Do you think that the families of the seniors in these homes want to hear those excuses about jurisdictional issues? Does the minister not think that the families want to hear that the federal government is doing all it can to care for their parents? the acting chair (mr. Quite frankly, I don't think that families care which level of government is responsible for caring for their elders. That's in fact what our government believes, and that's why we have willingly stepped up to say to provinces and territories that we will be there with you to make sure that all seniors in our lives have the right to age with dignity and care. bruce stanton): We will now give the floor to Mrs.Gill, from the riding of Manicouagan. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Mr.Chair, my question is for the Prime Minister who, earlier, clearly told us that the government's assistance is intended for those who are most in need and most vulnerable. I don't know if the PrimeMinister read the newspapers yesterday, but in Quebec, losses to the tune of $4billion are expected until March2021 in the tourism accommodation sector alone. How can I justify to my constituents the fact that a political party, which does not need it, has already seen money from the emergency wage subsidy, when people in my riding don't yet have access to it because of the seasonal nature of their work? These people haven't seen the money that is available through these programs. bill morneau: We think it is very important to protect the country's employees in all sectors of the economy. Through this approach, there will be more jobs after the pandemic, and the economic situation will be better. They are saying that they are protecting the jobs of the Liberal Party of Canada, which does not need the money. Another program was created for them, which isn't quite the same and doesn't really meet their needs. A government whose political wingnot the parliamentary wingdoesn't really need money takes money from the fund, but leaves fishers to make do with less generous programs that don't meet their needs. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that many sectors of the economy across the country are facing challenges. We will continue our approach because we believe it's the best way to protect employees and our economy. The government is saying that the best way to proceed is to give money to the political wing of the Liberal Party of Canada, when there are people who are getting nothing. What am I supposed to tell seasonal workers, who have absolutely no assurances for their future? I can't go back to my riding and say I'm proud of the work the government is doing or our efforts in the House. I have a very hard time accepting that the government is helping employees of the Liberal Party in preparation for the next election campaign, when communities in my region are dying because their economies revolve around a single industry. I can't tell them I'm not ashamed of what's going on as we speak. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we felt it was necessary to put emergency programs in place in response to the crisis during the pandemic. The emergency wage subsidy is a program that is clearly meant to ensure employees are protected and maintain their relationship with their employer. As for the Canada emergency response benefit, it means a lot to people who don't have a job. We are going to stick to our approach, which is to use consistent criteria to help all employees and all Canadians around the country struggling in any sector of the economy. marilne gill: Mr.Chair, I think the honourable Minister of Finance lives in an ivory tower. However, people who need that money, people who are actually losing money or who don't know if they'll even be working this summer are getting zilch. Are the Liberals going to return that money? Is the finance minister going to help all sectors of the economy, including tourism, fisheries and seasonal industries? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for her question. The emergency wage subsidy is meant for any sector of the economy where revenues have dropped by 30% or more. We are also providing the Canada emergency response benefit to other employees, meaning, those who have lost their income because of COVID-19. Consequently, we will keep up our approach to ensure we continue to fare as well as possible and the economy works well after the pandemic. bruce stanton): Now we'll go to our last group of interventions, and that will be from Ms. I'd like to begin with a shout-out to the brave waiters and waitresses at our local Earls restaurant and Browns Socialhouse, who have been opened again for on-site dining this week. we're beginning to find our new normal, and it was great to see how small businesses have so quickly adapted their establishments to keep their workers and patrons safe while allowing people to get back to the business of living. Chair, here in my riding I recently had contact with the mayor of Langley City who was wondering if I had any way of accessing personal protective gear, because our local firefighters were running out of stock. Then again yesterday, I spoke with one of our local homeless shelters that is also looking for PPE. Tam is telling all Canadians to wear masks in public, but I'm wondering if the Minister of Public Service and Procurement could tell us where exactly we're going to get all those masks with the current shortage. anita anand: I want to be clear that our priority as a federal government has been to respond to provincial and territorial requests for PPE that goes to front-line health care workers. That is our priority, and we've been procuring goods aggressively in domestic and international markets. We are now actively also exploring ways in which we can assist broader organizations across the country with PPE needs, and that is something that I'll continue to update the House on as we go forward. tamara jansen: A Globe and Mail article revealed that government orders for N95 masks have steadily been dropping. Chair, the number of N95 masks ordered, as reported on the department's website, does continue to fall. Will the minister tell us why we seem to continue to struggle to supply PPE to Canadians? hon. anita anand: It is no secret that we are in a global competition for N95 masks and other supplies, so the Government of Canada's approach is to diversify supply chains internationally and build up and retool domestic industry so that we can have these supplies going forward. In terms of the numbers on our web page, we have short-term and long-term contracts in place the acting chair (mr. tamara jansen: Yes, I understand that a number of Chinese mask manufacturers have been nationalized, and products for Canadians have been confiscated by the CCP government. Is the drop in N95 orders due to, in actual fact, contracts being cancelled? hon. anita anand: On N95 masks, I would like to assure the member and the House that we have multiple contracts in place for the procurement of N95 masks, including with 3M in the United States, whose masks are crossing our border weekly over the next month. We have our embassy and other firms actively ensuring that our supplies from the manufacturing source make their way to the warehouse. tamara jansen: We know many millions of N95 masks have arrived in Canada from China and have been substandard. Chair, as previously explained to the House, about eight million masks did not meet spec by the Public Health Agency of Canada and have been repurposed to some extent in other areas of the system. tamara jansen: In a previous committee, the deputy minister advised us that Medicom was shoulder-tapped by the government to consider producing PPE. anita anand: We have operated in a very urgent way in order to procure supplies for front-line health care workers. It's a multi-pronged approach, and our priority is to get supplies out to front-line health care workers in this time of crisis as quickly as possible. bruce stanton): Just before we adjourn, I think this another mark of accomplishment on behalf of the great team here at the House of Commons. My compliments to all members joining us here in the House and to all members who have joined by virtual conference<doc-sep>lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? darren millar am: Yes, I have a declaration of interest, Chair. I understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry. And, in addition, I'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video. So, item 2, then, today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils, which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers. The committee team has been out to take video evidence around Wales, and we're now going to watch the results of that on the screen. Well, I'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video. We'll move on now then to our evidence session, and I'm very pleased to welcome Gareth Pierce, chief executive of the WJEC, Mike Ebbsworth, assistant director educational support, WJEC, Philip Blaker, chief executive of Qualifications Wales, and Emyr George, associate director general qualifications at Qualifications Wales. So, thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions now, and if I can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in Wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and Welsh Government is. philip blaker: Shall I start? So, Qualifications Wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies, so we regulate awarding bodies. In regulating the awarding body, our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment. That said, when we are going through the design of the qualifications, we go through an approval process, so we develop approval criteria and we ask WJEC to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well. So, our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able, through the sample assessment materials and the specifications, to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations. So, that's setting out the knowledge, skills and understandings that will be assessed by WJEC when those exams are sat. So, during the last round of approvals, we pulled together interested parties in Welsh Government, regional consortia and WJEC to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources. Our other primary role is in maintaining standards. So, as the regulator of qualifications, what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so, the grades that people get—are fair. One of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so, the awarding process, the methods that will be used—and then we monitor WJEC's award of grades against those processes. During a period of change, we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach, largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this, where there's a change in a specification particularly, because there are any number of reasons, including resources, why performance may be different from one year to the next, but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that, all things being equal, if the cohorts have the same ability, the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next. Much of that has been related to the timelines that we've all had to deliver new specifications against, which have been far from ideal for everybody involved. We think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation isn't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness. In terms of the roles of others, Welsh Government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into Welsh medium. And there is, through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between England and Wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks. Now, that's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also, potentially, around a paradigm shift in what's expected of those materials. The WJEC does provide what's required in a regulatory sense, and there are two things there—the specification, which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching, and also exemplar assessments, which include marking, and those go to the regulator before they are published. The WJEC also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously. Each new course has substantial teaching guidance, which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils. And we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new, and then annually there is some charge for those events. Indeed, the regulations as they stand in Wales, Northern Ireland and England preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks, but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications. So, that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for Wales as we move forward, whether it would be possible—. As we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in Wales for GCSE and A-levels, in passing, that is something that I would want to suggest may deserve review. At the moment, these tend to be England-based—Hodder Education and Illuminate Education, for example—and then the Welsh Government does provide funding to the WJEC to support the process of providing Welsh-language versions for those textbooks. So, we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process, and also to pay for translation costs, and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology. We have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the WJEC, and we work closely with external translators too, and we use translation technology increasingly, which facilitates a great many things. Beyond that, I think the WJEC does see the need for flexibility, particularly when difficulties arise, and you heard there of some of the methods used by Mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions. And I should also note perhaps that, as the WJEC is very much involved with stakeholders, we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future. What is your view on that as a good use of teachers' time in Wales? gareth pierce: I think the question of translation is an interesting one. I think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because, as I mentioned earlier, there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time. Perhaps an interesting question is: is that source useful for teachers, being able to draw resources from two sources? Another interesting question, I think, is—. The Welsh language, of course, is a language that is used in an educational context, but we are in a big world that's an English language world. I'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies, as was mentioned in that video—they are available in English only. Therefore, I think another interesting question is: can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating? And, certainly, it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen Welsh-medium schools, for example, translating material from the same website independently of each other. If there are a few websites, or a few case studies, in this big external digital world that are worth translating, shouldn't we able to source those early? Because I don't think it's a good use of teachers' time. What is the vision in terms of teaching in a Welsh-medium class, in particular, perhaps, in the A-level classes? I'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages, as well as explaining those terms in their own language. But the impression I got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening, and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context. llyr gruffydd am: Just to pick up on your point on the additional materials, whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview, and then to respond to the demand? gareth pierce: Mike, in the WJEC, has conversations about resources in the team he's part of. That is extremely important—to identify, as Gareth has just said, those materials that need to be translated, and not everything needs to. We've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia, and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention. llyr gruffydd am: But would you—? The question I'm asking is: would you still see that as a core part of your work, although it's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you're required to provide? gareth pierce: Yes, we invest substantially from the WJEC budget into digital resources. So, through the types of conversations that Mike mentioned, in terms of identifying needs, deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas, that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation. llyr gruffydd am: And do we need further resources for that? gareth pierce: Well, it's an interesting question. The WJEC is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: Why isn't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen, then? gareth pierce: One can always do more, of course. The WJEC is trying to use its budget prudently, and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments. So, we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that Mike is undertaking. mike ebbsworth: There is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs, and that those are suited towards the requirements. Quite often a teacher—and I've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything. There has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years, and we've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment. lynne neagle am: Did you want to come in on any of this? philip blaker: I'm just going to say one thing. Teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources, and, in doing that, they'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language. I think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually, and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt. And what I wouldn't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse, different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative, which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate. But I think it is reasonable to expect for that core, common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default, and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that. The £500,000 funding for Welsh-medium educational resource that's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that's going to be spent? gareth pierce: Tthe WJEC has some information in terms of that budget. It is a Welsh Government budget, and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers, and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred. Now, there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources, and also, although this would be a very small part, a contribution towards seminars for publishers. But that isn't a full picture of the £500,000; I think you would have to ask the Welsh Government about the exact allocation of that total fund. We've just started this financial year; I'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource. We have contributed a list of publications, for example, that are ongoing, and they're aware of that, and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of Welsh. darren millar am: This is a huge mess, isn't it? It's a huge mess, which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers, lots of pressure and extra work for learners, and is affecting the well-being of students, at a time when they need to be mentally fit, in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up. We know that the problems are not confined to Welsh-medium resources; they're also being experienced in English language resources as well, particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks. You've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers, and I would agree with you on that front. But isn't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn, and swot up on, in advance of exams? gareth pierce: I think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently. But I think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them; perhaps the teacher uses them. There is an emphasis, for example, from one pupil there, on that traditional model of revision, namely class notes and his own revision notes, but that he personally also wanted a textbook. So, certainly, the content of a textbook is going to be important, and that that's available in some form or other. It was very interesting to know, for example, that when he was describing the traditional model of revision, he felt that he'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes. Much of that digital content, of course, corresponds to the content areas of a textbook, but it's just in a different form. And some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers don't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time. That doesn't happen so often in English medium, but we know about that gap in time in the Welsh provision. darren millar am: Well, it's happened fairly regularly in the English-medium textbook world, hasn't it? My daughter—she featured in that video—has got her RS qualifications coming up, and she only had a textbook over the Easter period. You mentioned digital resources; not everybody's got access to digital resources in their own homes, even, in Wales. So, aren't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook' method of revision and benefit from that? mike ebbsworth: We do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print. Most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use, to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time. If there are activities, then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home. gareth pierce: I think you're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture. The young people talk about websites and blogs, and we're talking about digital resources, so being able to reach those resources, I think, is vital in Wales. It's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters. One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work, while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable. Of course, the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that, in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables, we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later, but available digitally at an early stage. But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital, and access to that, and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well. darren millar am: Mr Blaker, you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification. philip blaker: I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest. darren millar am: So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students. darren millar am: But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort? philip blaker: The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination. darren millar am: I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important. gareth pierce: I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. darren millar am: I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly? gareth pierce: I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018. darren millar am: So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work? gareth pierce: Yes. philip blaker: I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by. gareth pierce: Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody. llyr gruffydd am: Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve? gareth pierce: That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work. lynne neagle am: Did you want to come in, Philip? philip blaker: I think one of the big differences is it's a tsunami we can see coming. So, young people will be assessed for the first time, assuming linear exams, in the summer 2027, which is some way away, and, actually, given the reform process historically, this is probably the most foresight we've seen of a big change like this. There is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum, because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum, so we do need to see something coming out of that. I think, for us, once we've seen the curriculum, and we've got better sight of it, we'll be able to plan things out. We've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications, and, ultimately, there'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made, probably in 2023, which would be that if the conditions don't appear right for safe implementation, then we would make a recommendation to Welsh Government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification, not in terms of the curriculum, for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up. So, we're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process, but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions. gareth pierce: Just one very brief comment in that context: I think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there. They emphasise, in the context of the curriculum, the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing, therefore I think we truly need to discuss that. Does that suggest that there won't be so much need for national resources, or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case? We need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail, I think. llyr gruffydd am: Yes, certainly, and one is concerned that that conversation isn't already happening, but, yes, okay, you've made that point clearly. If I could return, therefore, to the commercial issue—clearly, there is a shortage of providers in Wales, and we are reliant on others. You suggested that the WJEC may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed. I assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context. I think that I haven't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest: the interest is there, but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable, what the implications are of working in two languages, what kind of business model, perhaps, would be suitable for the publishers in Wales, how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work, because they would want to build their teams, and develop skills within those teams, and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing. And therefore, those are the sort of issues that we're starting a discussion on, in the hope of having a discussion in June to move that forward. Of course, Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion, not only WJEC, but we've been part of initiating that discussion. llyr gruffydd am: Is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing? gareth pierce: Yes, I think, and there is some enthusiasm. For example, a number of publishers in Wales are within an association describing itself as Cwlwm Cyhoeddwyr Cymru. Myrddin ap Dafydd is chair of Cwlwm at the moment, and there is enthusiasm and vision, certainly. So, there's a wonderful opportunity, I think, for Wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them. llyr gruffydd am: And we're talking here not just about translating but developing resources, and the point, I think, is an important one around some of the evidence that we've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning, rather than having to translate something. Because there have been comments that translations are clunky, difficult to follow and not—I'm not saying that they're not fit for purpose, but certainly don't facilitate teaching, perhaps, as easily as one would wish. gareth pierce: Yes, I would agee, and that begins with the authors, doesn't it? We must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: So, the expertise, and the same capacty with the publishers as well. gareth pierce: Yes, and we do want to nurture authors within Wales, particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a Welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects. So, we need authors who can be developed, and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers. llyr gruffydd am: Would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy, if it were to develop bilingually? Or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy? gareth pierce: Our view in the WJEC is that subsidy will be necessary. Why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the Welsh curriculum? And perhaps we would need a little more funding for that. But there will be organisations such as the WJEC who will still be interested in contributing, because we are a charity, and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in Wales. llyr gruffydd am: But in terms of where we are now, resources have to be translated. But also, how long is acceptable to wait for a translation, in your view? mike ebbsworth: We've done a great deal of work recently, over recent years, to ensure that that delay between having an English version and a Welsh version is reduced. We are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the Welsh and the English are available simultaneously. In those terms, we've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we've named this morning, so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced. The nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind, or edit as he or she is writing. Well, with that model, we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward, chapter by chapter perhaps, so that there would be no changes to be made from then on. At the end of the process, then, the publishers in England have agreed to hold the English version back for a period of time until the Welsh version is available, and then to publish both simultaneously. Unless that timetable is followed throughout the process, there are inherent risks in that process, of course, as I've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials, and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to. gareth pierce: And perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package, and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing, how the Welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that aren't text necessarily—pictures and so forth. So, eight weeks, I think, is the time that we've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the Welsh version in that period of time. So, you’re telling us, Mr Ebbsworth, that the WJEC has agreed with Hodder and Illuminate that, in future, even if an English textbook is available for publication, and it’s already late, you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the Welsh-medium textbook? mike ebbsworth: We can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed. Naturally, if something is late in English, then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken. But that's the hope: that when new textbooks are produced in English and authored in English, we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround. darren millar am: I understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach, which seems much more equitable. But to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you haven't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day, seems to be wholly inappropriate. Can I ask, also, why on earth it isn't possible to produce Welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to English on occasions? mike ebbsworth: We're entirely open to that and to that sort of model. darren millar am: So, why has that never ever been done? gareth pierce: Well, of course, it would happen with subjects that stem from Wales, but I think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors, therefore, tend to work through the medium of English. But, just to be clear, this idea of delaying an English version is something that the Welsh Government is eager for us to experiment with, but not with textbooks that are already late. They are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000. So, in a way, this is an experiment and the Welsh Government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available. darren millar am: So, you're being forced to do this by the Welsh Government, rather than— gareth pierce: Well, we've agreed to do it in discussion with them. darren millar am: So, are you happy with that approach? gareth pierce: Well, as long as the textbook isn't late in the first place, then yes; it's worth trying. There is a challenge on the eight weeks, there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the English version first of all, but we are willing to use this as a test bed, and we're working on two specific textbooks on this. lynne neagle am: I think the committee is struggling with this idea, so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that, then? Is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged? gareth pierce: Well, no, in a way, it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources. With the digital materials, the intention is that things are available in time and that they're available in both languages at the same time. So, trying to imitate that with printed text is what we're trying to do, but not with texts that are already late. So, if these books keep to the timetable, then they will be available in time in both languages, but that the English version has stayed before going out on the shelves. llyr gruffydd am: So, that's to say that the English version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation. mike ebbsworth: Well, ultimately, I may have used the wrong words in saying that we're holding the English back. The English version would still be in the process, just as the Welsh version would be, and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing. There is an element of editing the English as well as the Welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period. So, a draft form might be available, and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible, but then that has to be held up before publication. john griffiths am: Just on that, Chair, it's nonetheless the case, as we've heard, I think, and as the letter to the committee from Kirsty Williams has made clear, that there might be a situation where the English-language version of a textbook could be made available, but it isn't made available because there isn't a Welsh-language version. And, as the Chair said, is that about putting those students in Wales on the same footing, and if so, how does that relate to the fact that these students, including those who could have had earlier access to the English-language version, are competing with students over the border, as we heard on the video earlier, for those precious university places? Doesn't it place the English-language student using the English-language version at a potential disadvantage, compared to students over the border? gareth pierce: I think this is a point for Qualifications Wales to a certain extent, but applicants for qualifications in Wales are assessed as a national cohort, if truth be told, so, each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort. So, in discussion with Qualifications Wales, we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in Wales in any subject, be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason. philip blaker: Certainly, from a comparable outcomes perspective, the fewer differences that there are that are differential—. So, the idea of textbooks being available in English and Welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity. So, if we're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective, it makes the awarding easier if everybody's on a common playing field. It's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned. This subject has already been awarded at AS-level last year, so it has gone through an award and will go through the full A-level award this year. The comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year, in the absence of a textbook, and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level. Similarly, with other subjects that have gone through reforms, we've seen it with the GCSEs that were awarded last year, ASs that were awarded last year and A-levels that were awarded last year: we saw good comparability year on year. Is that okay, John? darren millar am: Just a very brief follow-up on that, at the cohort level, yes, you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected, but what you don't know and can't tell, because you're not able to drill down to the individual student level, is whether children, young people, were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers. philip blaker: I guess we're in a situation where there's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: The absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen. darren millar am: Well, I think you've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it's causing, and the concern that learners have about their outcomes. I think it would be very interesting, actually, to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes. Is that something that Qualifications Wales could do on a sample basis? philip blaker: Historically, that sort of evidence has been very unreliable. Certainly, back in my day at an awarding body they were provided, and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade. gareth pierce: No, we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable, because there are so many factors. But I think, at the end of the day, what we see is, yes, I agree there is evidence of stress, but I think there's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation, and tending to do that very well. That's the evidence that we've got, for example, in the AS religious studies last year, that the cohort did extremely well in fact. We can't disagree that there's evidence of stress, but I think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they've got: classroom notes, revision notes, as they mentioned, and the various other materials that they referred to. john griffiths am: Coming back to the effect of the lack of resources, we heard on the video, as you've just mentioned, Gareth, that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety, and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources, as we discussed. We know exam time is very, very stressful—I'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general, without any additional problems or perceptions of problems. So, with that sort of background, would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications? I know we've discussed this in terms of it being difficult, perhaps, to show cause and effect, but I think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted. There is evidence of their concern, isn't there? But as Philip said, what we don't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment, because there are so many factors, there are so many different kinds of resources that they've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks, they're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them. Of course, it's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard, so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned, yes, and as you've said, examinations are a stressful time in general, but they are also young people who are doing their level best, and usually do get the results that they have worked for. Coming back again to matters that we've already discussed, but just to put to you in a fairly focused way, would you accept that it isn't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having, depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they're studying through? Would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists? gareth pierce: Ideally, resources, digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis. But I think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail, different individuals would be able to say, 'There are different types of unfairness.' You referred earlier to the digital inequalities. Is there an economic inequality? There is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available. So, I think your question drives at a very important point: what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time? Ideally, each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled. So, I don't think I can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair, but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one, and therefore we're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own. john griffiths am: Could I put to you, finally then, what Estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks, marking criteria and specimen papers, that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately, and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils' achievement? Would you accept that? gareth pierce: It's interesting—they link three quite different things there, don't they? We've discussed the textbooks in some detail. When they refer to sample assessments, we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame, and they have to be approved. So, in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes, and they are statutorily available, in a way. One request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us. Of course, they're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time. But in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination, is marked by us, and is then made available. I would like to have a conversation with Estyn, indeed, to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to. emyr george: May I offer a comment on that quote from Estyn? They talk about a reduction in attainment and that, to some extent, brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we're talking about. That method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification, we know that performance in an exam can fall, and that is due to a number of different factors. Certainly, knowing that you're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination, and examinations are a matter of concern already. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate between those factors, but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils' performance in an exam, and that's why, when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades, we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can, on the level of the whole national cohort, to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam. gareth pierce: Could I just make a brief comment on the sample assessments? Now, interestingly, when the English, Welsh, maths, and maths and numeracy GCSEs were new, the Welsh Government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials. We had to produce one for the regulator, but they wanted to see us produce far more, and we did that. If we create more and more sample assessments, then does that create more risk of teaching to the test? And every time we produce one of these, of course, we are using robust assessment ideas, and they're out there to be used for test purposes. So, we need to be careful that we don't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners' good ideas in the sample material. So, it's an interesting theme, but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with Estyn on that. I think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms, particularly knowing that we've got some on the radar already, and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future. So, if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource, rather than a qualification resource, I think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced. So, going back to when I studied my A-levels in the 1980s, there was this common body of knowledge that was an A-level textbook in biology that wasn't focused around an individual awarding body. When we talked to unions about this on Monday, they said, 'Yes, when we used to teach many years ago, there were curriculum resources like that, and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification, we either did or didn't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum'. That's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that didn't get taught because it was no longer in the text, despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge. But I think if we can shift this paradigm—and I would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly, away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for, I would suggest, a much healthier model in the future. In the United States, for example, there are some states within the United States that produce a state textbook. Now, that can have issues, particularly if it's politically orientated—so, if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that's taught. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, they've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks. So, Hong Kong, which is a very high-performing jurisdiction, is trying to move away from that model in the future. gareth pierce: Could I just add very, very briefly— lynne neagle am: Very briefly, because I want to bring Hefin in. gareth pierce: I know that, in our letter to you, we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge. The assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation. So, therefore, we really do need resources that support that way of working, and I'm sure that lots of the young people we've heard from—what they're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content, but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively. In fact, an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator, maybe, is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall. Do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions, sometimes in both languages if they've learnt it in that way? Shouldn't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena? And then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation. hefin david am: I want to welcome these particular comments, because having come from a higher education background, what I've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules, where you're relying on academic journal articles and you're piecing together the story yourself, based on the curriculum you develop yourself. I fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet, when they go to university, they are not expected to repeat what's in the textbook; they're expected to do exactly as Gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument. So, therefore, I'm interested to know how you've worked with higher education to develop that approach. lynne neagle am: Can I ask for brief answers, please? gareth pierce: Yes, well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to HE and therefore what their learners want or, in some cases, they are HE people themselves. We do draw on a body of expertise, and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide. hefin david am: I think the difficulty and the difference is that, at HE level, the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at GCSE level. And I think, interestingly—I know we've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—I think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious. They would be described as scholarly, and I think some of the young people on the video made that point, didn't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes? But we need to assist them in doing so. We need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning. We recently published a report on the Welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate, and I think it's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education. Through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate, there's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills, particularly at the advanced level bacc, to make people really HE-ready so that they're better able to engage with that different style of learning. So, I think there's a huge opportunity that shouldn't be diminished within the advanced Welsh bacc. mark reckless am: Gareth, can I just put to you—? On the Estyn criticism, I think you've answered one aspect of their criticism that WJEC did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process, and I understand your position there, but they went on and said, 'At times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes' and also, 'It would be helpful if the WJEC ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification.' Do you have a response to those points? gareth pierce: Again, probably, I'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes, because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through Philip's team as well or his Welsh Government predecessors as regulators, depending on which qualifications they were. Very occasionally, somebody will identify an error, and obviously we then correct them, because these are available digitally online. So, if there is a problem, we want to hear about it and then we can correct it. But, yes, I agree with their fundamental premise, that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts, including, as we mentioned earlier, so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as WJEC free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching. We need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year. mark reckless am: So, what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from Estyn and having that conversation with them? Has that not happened? gareth pierce: We have met with Estyn a couple of times recently, actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit, and also when they were planning a review of some of the A-level work. Because we do have regular meetings with them, we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here I'm sure. mark reckless am: Looking at the structure and the relationship between Qualifications Wales and the WJEC—. I understand in the model in England—you've got Ofqual, the regulator, and you have various competing exam boards, some I think with for-profit motivation. We don't have that in Wales; there is a sole regulator and a single, dominant examination board. Does that mean that there's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies, particularly given WJEC is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in Qualifications Wales have? philip blaker: The roles are very distinct, so I'd tell you there's no overlap. What we try and do is try and make sure that there's a good connection between the work that we do. I would say a strength of the Welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely, because much of the work that Ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies doesn't lead to what's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards. Now, the opportunity that we have in Wales is, where we have a single awarding body, we can have a close and good working relationship with WJEC, but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at WJEC as one of our regulated bodies. gareth pierce: Can I make a general point? Perhaps the important opportunity in Wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations, such as the consortia, can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and CPD that will be required to support the new curriculum, and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed. The Learned Society of Wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the Welsh dimension of the curriculum. There will be a need for some financial resource from the Welsh Government—yes, certainly—and the WJEC can provide some resources, but I think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources. mark reckless am: But doesn't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that Philip was talking about earlier, where we had textbooks based on the curriculum, and there's that core, but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook wasn't there for the particular exam approach? If you have a single, dominant exam board, and you have a Welsh curriculum that's developed with that board, how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam? philip blaker: So, if we look at qualification, a qualification should be based on the curriculum that's being offered, because learning should be based around the curriculum, and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge, skills and understanding, the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop. Now, of course, what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed, there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for. I think what we're trying to say is, from an educational perspective, what we'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive, so that, if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge, skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create, they should succeed in the qualification. mark reckless am: And you suggested earlier that, if need be, the qualification could be pushed back a year, but not the curriculum. Does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification? philip blaker: It would be possible. mark reckless am: But satisfactory? philip blaker: Because, if we're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16, what Professor Donaldson said at the very beginning, with 'Successful Futures', was, actually, if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage, so that they're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment—. Ideally, you'd be in a position where you've got GCSEs that have been reformed to marry up to any change, but I don't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do. We would much rather be in a position of having reforms, but, equally, I'd want to see any reforms delivered safely, and I wouldn't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline. But I think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and I think as we get further into this we'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what's the right thing to do. darren millar am: Just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum—. So, who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources? philip blaker: I think, for a new model, that needs to be determined. They have responsibility for curriclum and they've already started work with the seminar last year, and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future. I think we need to evolve that approach, and I think Welsh Government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment. darren millar am: Are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere? philip blaker: Yes, there are models where you can have—. For example, in Northern Ireland, you have the regulator, the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof. So, you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in Northern Ireland with the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component. But, of course, in Wales, and also previously in England, the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum. I mentioned earlier that, in the past, the WJEC has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages. Certainly, key stage 3 is closely linked to GCSE, and, therefore, if the WJEC continues to be a player—as I hope it will—in the area of resources for GCSE and A-level, then the WJEC is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing, translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages. So, I'm sure that the WJEC would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area. Well, we're out of time, so can I thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions? I think it's been a very useful and informative session. In view of the time, can I ask whether Members are happy to note all those papers in a block? Can I just flag that I would like to return to paper to note 3, which is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on minority ethnic, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller learners, when we go into private, if that's okay with Members? Item 5, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.

The opposition party criticized the Canadian government for the unstable supply chain during the pandemic, accusing them of inaction. However, the minister assured that they would collaborate with other countries to keep Canada's supply chains, especially for essential goods, agricultural products, and medical supplies, open. In England, the publishers agreed to delay the release of the English version until the Welsh version was available, and then publish both simultaneously. Darren Millar AM disagreed with this decision, as it would further delay an already overdue textbook, potentially disadvantaging English and Welsh students. John Griffiths shared the same concern about the approach.

What was the discussion about imports, supply chains, and the delay between materials having an English version and a Welsh version? What was the decision of WJEC regarding the delay? Why did the council disagree with WJEC's decision?

professor b: So what what from what grad a: Hello ? professor b: Whatever we say from now on , it can be held against us , right ? phd e: That 's right . So I I the the problem is that I actually don't know how th these held meetings are held , if they are very informal and sort of just people are say what 's going on phd e: Yeah . phd e: We just sorta go around and people say what 's going on , what 's the latest professor b: Yeah . So I guess that what may be a reasonable is if I first make a report on what 's happening in Aurora in general , at least what from my perspective . professor b: And and so , I I think that Carmen and Stephane reported on Amsterdam meeting , phd d: o professor b: which was kind of interesting because it was for the first time we realized we are not friends really , but we are competitors . phd e: right ? that they were trying to decide ? professor b: There is a plenty of there 're plenty of issues . phd e: Like the voice activity detector , professor b: Well and what happened was that they realized that if two leading proposals , which was French Telecom Alcatel , and us both had voice activity detector . And I said " well big surprise , we could have told you that n n n four months ago , except we didn't because nobody else was bringing it up " . professor b: Obviously French Telecom didn't volunteer this information either , cuz we were working on mainly on voice activity detector for past several months phd e: Right . professor b: I said " well yeah , you are absolutely right , if I wish that you provided better end point at speech because or at least that if we could modify the recognizer , to account for these long silences , because otherwise that that th that wasn't a correct thing . " And so then ev ev everybody else says " well we should we need to do a new eval evaluation without voice activity detector , or we have to do something about it " . Because but in that case , we would like to change the the algorithm because if we are working on different data , we probably will use a different set of tricks . professor b: But unfortunately nobody ever officially can somehow acknowledge that this can be done , because French Telecom was saying " no , no , no , now everybody has access to our code , so everybody is going to copy what we did . " Yeah well our argument was everybody ha has access to our code , and everybody always had access to our code . We thought that people are honest , that if you copy something and if it is protected protected by patent then you negotiate , or something , phd e: Yeah . professor b: But And French Telecom was saying " no , no , no , phd e: professor b: there is a lot of little tricks which sort of cannot be protected and you guys will take them , " which probably is also true . , you know , it might be that people will take th the algorithms apart and use the blocks from that . But I somehow think that it wouldn't be so bad , as long as people are happy abou honest about it . professor b: And I think they have to be honest in the long run , because winning proposal again what will be available th is will be a code . So the the people can go to code and say " well listen this is what you stole from me " phd e: The biggest problem of course is that f that Alcatel French Telecom cl claims " well we fulfilled the conditions . " And e and other people don't feel that , because they so they now decided that that is the whole thing will be done on well - endpointed data , essentially that somebody will endpoint the data based on clean speech , because most of this the SpeechDat - Car has the also close speaking mike and endpoints will be provided . professor b: And we will run again still not clear if we are going to run the if we are allowed to run new algorithms , but I assume so . but since u u n u at least our experience is that only endpointing a a mel cepstrum gets gets you twenty - one percent improvement overall and twenty - seven improvement on SpeechDat - Car phd e: . professor b: So they agreed that there will be a twenty - five percent improvement required on on h u m bad mis badly mismatched phd e: But wait a minute , I thought the endpointing really only helped in the noisy cases . professor b: Yeah but you have the same prob MFCC basically has an enormous number of insertions . professor b: And so , so now they want to say " we we will require fifty percent improvement only for well matched condition , and only twenty - five percent for the serial cases . professor b: And and they almost agreed on that except that it wasn't a hundred percent agreed . And so last time during the meeting , I just brought up the issue , I said " well you know quite frankly I 'm surprised how lightly you are making these decisions because this is a major decision . For two years we are fighting for fifty percent improvement and suddenly you are saying " oh no we we will do something less " , but maybe we should discuss that . And everybody said " oh we discussed that and you were not a mee there " and I said " well a lot of other people were not there because not everybody participates at these teleconferencing c things . " However , there is only ten or fifteen lines , so people can't even con you know participate . " Immediately Nokia raised the question and they said " oh yeah we agree this is not good to to dissolve the the the criterion . professor b: So now officially , Nokia is complaining and said they they are looking for support , I think QualComm is saying , too " we shouldn't abandon the fifty percent yet . professor b: Next Wednesday we are going to have another teleconferencing call , so we 'll see what where it goes . phd e: So what about the issue of the weights on the for the different systems , the well - matched , and medium - mismatched and professor b: Yeah , that 's what that 's a g very good point , because David says " well you know we ca we can manipulate this number by choosing the right weights anyways . professor b: yeah , if of course if you put a zero weight zero on a mismatched condition , or highly mismatched then then you are done . So phd e: And they 're the staying the same ? professor b: Well , of course people will not like it . Now What is happening now is that I th I think that people try to match the criterion to solution . But it 's should happen at a point where everybody feels comfortable that we did all what we could . professor b: Basically , I think that that this test was a little bit bogus because of the data and essentially there were these arbitrary decisions made , and and everything . So what we are doing at OGI now is working basically on our parts which we I think a little bit neglected , like noise separation . so we are looking in ways is in which with which we can provide better initial estimate of the mel spectrum basically , which would be a l , f more robust to noise , and so far not much success . professor b: We tried things which a long time ago Bill Byrne suggested , instead of using Fourier spectrum , from Fourier transform , use the spectrum from LPC model . Their argument there was the LPC model fits the peaks of the spectrum , so it may be m naturally more robust in noise . And I thought " well , that makes sense , " but so far we can't get much much out of it . professor b: we may try some standard techniques like spectral subtraction and phd e: You haven't tried that yet ? professor b: not not not much . professor b: like for instance Dennis Klatt was suggesting the one way to deal with noisy speech is to add noise to everything . phd e: Oh ! professor b: So that makes th any additive noise less addi less a a effective , phd e: I see . It was kind of like one of these things , you know , but if you think about it , it 's actually pretty ingenious . So well , you know , just take a take a spectrum and and and add of the constant , C , to every every value . And if if then if this data becomes noisy , it b it becomes eff effectively becomes less noisy basically . professor b: But of course you cannot add too much noise because then you 'll s then you 're clean recognition goes down , but it 's yet to be seen how much , it 's a very simple technique . professor b: Yes indeed it 's a very simple technique , you just take your spectrum and and use whatever is coming from FFT , add constant , phd e: . That that Or the other thing is of course if you have a spectrum , what you can s start doing , you can leave start leaving out the p the parts which are low in energy and then perhaps one could try to find a a all - pole model to such a spectrum . Because a all - pole model will still try to to to put the the continuation basically of the of the model into these parts where the issue set to zero . phd e: ! What is that ? professor b: Ah , you don't know about TRAPS ! grad a: . phd e: The TRAPS sound familiar , I but I don't professor b: Yeah tha This is familiar like sort of because we gave you the name , but , what it is , is that normally what you do is that you recognize speech based on a shortened spectrum . professor b: Essentially L P - LPC , mel cepstrum , everything starts with a spectral slice . so if you s So , given the spectrogram you essentially are sliding sliding the spectrogram along the f frequency axis phd e: professor b: So you can say " well you can also take the time trajectory of the energy at a given frequency " , and what you get is then , that you get a p vector . Namely you can say i it I will I will say that this vector will eh will will describe the phoneme which is in the center of the vector . professor b: And you so you classi so it 's a very different vector , very different properties , we don't know much about it , but the truth is phd e: . But you have many of those vectors per phoneme , professor b: Well , so you get many decisions . professor b: Because if you run this recognition , you get you still get about twenty percent error twenty percent correct . professor b: on on like for the frame by frame basis , so so it 's much better than chance . But the latest observation is that you you you are you can get quite a big advantage of using two critical bands at the same time . Because there are some reasons I can I could talk about , will have to tell you about things like masking experiments which yield critical bands , and also experiments with release of masking , which actually tell you that something is happening across critical bands , across bands . And phd e: Well how do you how do you convert this energy over time in a particular frequency band into a vector of numbers ? professor b: It 's time T - zero is one number , time t phd e: Yeah but what 's the number ? Is it just the professor b: It 's a spectral energy , logarithmic spectral energy , phd e: it 's just the amount of energy in that band from f in that time interval . professor b: And that 's what that 's what I 'm saying then , so this is a this is a starting vector . professor b: for instance a question is like " how correlated are the elements of this vector ? " Turns out they are quite correlated , because , especially the neighboring ones , right ? They they represent the same almost the same configuration of the vocal tract . professor b: Then the question is " can you describe elements of this vector by Gaussian distributions " , or to what extent ? Because And and and so on and so on . professor b: But is the is the critical band the right dimension ? So we somehow made arbitrary decision , " yes " . Then but then now we are thinking a lot how to how to use at least the neighboring band because that seems to be happening This I somehow start to believe that 's what 's happening in recognition . Cuz a lot of experiments point to the fact that people can split the signal into critical bands , but then oh so you can you are quite capable of processing a signal in independently in individual critical bands . But at the same time you most likely pay attention to at least neighboring bands when you are making any decisions , you compare what 's happening in in this band to what 's happening to the band to to to the to the neighboring bands . That 's why the articulatory events , which F F Fletcher talks about , they are about two critical bands . professor b: You need to you need to compare it to something else , what 's happening but it 's what 's happening in the in the close neighborhood . So if you are making decision what 's happening at one kilohertz , you want to know what 's happening at nine hundred hertz and it and maybe at eleven hundred hertz , but you don't much care what 's happening at three kilohertz . phd e: So it 's really w It 's sort of like saying that what 's happening at one kilohertz depends on what 's happening around it . But it 's but for but for instance , th what what humans are very much capable of doing is that if th if they are exactly the same thing happening in two neighboring critical bands , recognition can discard it . grad a: Hey ! professor b: Hey ! OK , we need us another another voice here . professor b: And so so so for instance if you d if you a if you add the noise that normally masks masks the the the signal right ? phd e: professor b: and you can show that in that if the if you add the noise outside the critical band , that doesn't affect the the decisions you 're making about a signal within a critical band . If the noise is modulated , with the same modulation frequency as the noise in a critical band , the amount of masking is less . professor b: So the s m masking curve , normally it looks like sort of I start from from here , so you you have no noise then you you you are expanding the critical band , so the amount of maching is increasing . And when you e hit a certain point , which is a critical band , then the amount of masking is the same . professor b: But , if you if you if you modulate the noise , the masking goes up and the moment you start hitting the another critical band , the masking goes down . So essentially essentially that 's a very clear indication that that that cognition can take into consideration what 's happening in the neighboring bands . But if you go too far in a in a if you if the noise is very broad , you are not increasing much more , so so if you if you are far away from the signal from the signal f the frequency at which the signal is , then the m even the when the noise is co - modulated it it 's not helping you much . So things like this we are kind of playing with with with the hope that perhaps we could eventually u use this in a in a real recognizer . phd e: But you probably won't have anything before the next time we have to evaluate , professor b: Probably not . phd e: right ? professor b: Well , maybe , most likely we will not have anything which c would comply with the rules . professor b: latency currently chops the require significant latency amount of processing , phd e: professor b: because we don't know any better , yet , than to use the neural net classifiers , and and TRAPS . professor b: Though the the work which everybody is looking at now aims at s trying to find out what to do with these vectors , so that a g simple Gaussian classifier would be happier with it . professor b: or to what extent a Gaussian classifier should be unhappy that , and how to Gaussian - ize the vectors , and phd e: . Then Sunil is asked me f for one month 's vacation and since he did not take any vacation for two years , I had no I didn't have heart to tell him no . professor b: And phd e: Is he getting married or something ? professor b: well , he may be looking for a girl , for for I don't I don't I don't ask . Well , I 've known other friends who they they go to Ind - they go back home to India for a month , they come back married , professor b: Yeah . professor b: and then of course then what happened with Narayanan was that he start pushing me that he needs to get a PHD because they wouldn't give him his wife . And she 's very pretty and he loves her and so so we had to really phd e: So he finally had some incentive to finish , professor b: Oh yeah . phd e: huh ? professor b: Sort of figured that That was a that he he told me the day when we did very well at our NIST evaluations of speaker recognition , the technology , and he was involved there . So I I said " well , yeah , OK " so he took another another three quarter of the year but he was out . phd e: huh ? professor b: So I wouldn't surprise me if he has a plan like that , though though Pratibha still needs to get out first . professor b: And S and Satya needs to get out very first because he 's he already has four years served , though one year he was getting masters . phd e: So have the when is the next evaluation ? June or something ? professor b: Which ? Speaker recognition ? phd e: No , for Aurora ? professor b: there , we don't know about evaluation , next meeting is in June . But I , yeah , what I think would be of course extremely useful , if we can come to our next meeting and say " well you know we did get fifty percent improvement . If if you are interested we eventually can tell you how " , but we can get fifty percent improvement . Do you know what the new baseline is ? Oh , I guess if you don't have professor b: Twenty - two t twenty twenty - two percent better than the old baseline . But I assume that it will be similar , I don't I I don't see the reason why it shouldn't be . professor b: Cuz if it is worse , then we will raise the objection , phd e: Yeah . professor b: we say " well you know how come ? " Because eh if we just use our voice activity detector , which we don't claim even that it 's wonderful , it 's just like one of them . professor b: We get this sort of improvement , how come that we don't see it on on on on your endpointed data ? phd c: Yeah . phd c: because the voice activity detector that I choosed is something that cheating , it 's using the alignment of the speech recognition system , professor b: Yeah . C yeah phd c: and only the alignment on the clean channel , and then mapped this alignment to the noisy channel . professor b: Well David told me David told me yesterday or Harry actually he told Harry from QualComm and Harry brought up the suggestion we should still go for fifty percent he says are you aware that your system does only thirty percent comparing to to endpointed baselines ? So they must have run already something . But we think that we we didn't say the last word yet , that we have other other things which we can try . Because Nokia was objecting , with QualComm 's we basically supported that , we said " yes " . " The Guenter Hirsch who d doesn't speak for Ericsson anymore because he is not with Ericsson and Ericsson may not may withdraw from the whole Aurora activity because they have so many troubles now . phd e: Where 's Guenter going ? professor b: Well Guenter is already he got the job already was working on it for past two years or three years phd e: professor b: he got a job at some some Fachschule , the technical college not too far from Aachen . phd e: ! professor b: So it 's like professor u university professor phd e: professor b: you know , not quite a university , not quite a sort of it 's not Aachen University , but it 's a good school and he he 's happy . ! professor b: And he well , he was hoping to work with Ericsson like on t like consulting basis , but right now he says says it doesn't look like that anybody is even thinking about speech recognition . But this is being now discussed right now , and it 's possible that that that it may get through , that we will still stick to fifty percent . Which event es essentially I think that we should be happy with because that that would mean that at least people may be forced to look into alternative solutions phd c: professor b: but not phd c: Which would mean like sixty percent over the current baseline , which is professor b: Yeah . professor b: Is it like sort of is How did you come up with this number ? If you improve twenty by twenty percent the c the f the all baselines , it 's just a quick c comp co computation ? phd c: Yeah . phd c: Yeah , because it de it depends on the weightings professor b: Yeah , yeah . How 's your documentation or whatever it w what was it you guys were working on last week ? phd c: Yeah , finally we we 've not finished with this . phd d: Ma - nec to need a little more time to improve the English , and maybe s to fill in something some small detail , something like that , phd c: Well , we have a document that explain a big part of the experiments , phd d: Necessary to to include the bi the bibliography . phd e: So have you been running some new experiments ? I I thought I saw some jobs of yours running on some of the machine phd c: Yeah . We 've fff done some strange things like removing C - zero or C - one from the the vector of parameters , and we noticed that C - one is almost not useful at all . phd e: Eh Is this in the baseline ? or in phd c: In the No , in the proposal . professor b: So we were just discussing , since you mentioned that , in it w phd c: professor b: driving in the car with Morgan this morning , we were discussing a good experiment for b for beginning graduate student who wants to run a lot of who wants to get a lot of numbers on something phd c: professor b: which is , like , " imagine that you will you will start putting every co any coefficient , which you are using in your vector , in some general power . professor b: So if you put it in a s square root , that effectively makes your model half as efficient . professor b: And and i i i but it 's the mean is an exponent of the whatever , the the this Gaussian function . phd e: You 're compressing the range , professor b: So you 're compressing the range of this coefficient , so it 's becoming less efficient . Morgan was @ @ and he was he was saying well this might be the alternative way how to play with a with a fudge factor , you know , in the phd e: Oh . professor b: And I said " well in that case why don't we just start compressing individual elements , like when when because in old days we were doing when when people still were doing template matching and Euclidean distances , we were doing this liftering of parameters , right ? phd e: - huh . professor b: and it 's highly affected by frequency response of the of the recording equipment and that sort of thing , phd c: professor b: Bell Labs had he this r raised cosine lifter which still I think is built into H HTK for reasons n unknown to anybody , but but we had exponential lifter , or triangle lifter , basic number of lifters . But so they may be a way to to fiddle with the f with the f phd e: Insertions . professor b: Insertions , deletions , or the the giving a relative basically modifying relative importance of the various parameters . professor b: The only of course problem is that there 's an infinite number of combinations and if the if you s if y phd e: Oh . You need like a some kind of a professor b: Yeah , you need a lot of graduate students , and a lot of computing power . phd e: You need to have a genetic algorithm , that basically tries random permutations of these things . If you were at Bell Labs or I d d I shouldn't be saying this in on on a mike , right ? Or I IBM , that 's what maybe that 's what somebody would be doing . professor b: Oh , the places which have a lot of computing power , so because it is really it 's a p it 's a it 's it will be reasonable search phd e: professor b: but I wonder if there isn't some way of doing this search like when we are searching say for best discriminants . phd e: You know actually , I don't know that this wouldn't be all that bad . phd e: right ? And then these exponents are just applied to that professor b: Absolutely . Each each phd e: And is this something that you would adjust for training ? or only recognition ? professor b: For both , you would have to do . phd e: So you 'd actually professor b: Because essentially you are saying " this feature is not important " . professor b: Or less important , so that 's th that 's a that 's a painful one , yeah . phd e: So for each set of exponents that you would try , it would require a training and a recognition ? professor b: Yeah . You just may n may need to c give less weight to to a mod a component of the model which represents this particular feature . So if you Instead of altering the feature vectors themselves , you you modify the the the Gaussians in the models . You modify the Gaussian in the model , but in the in the test data you would have to put it in the power , but in a training what you c in a training in trained model , all you would have to do is to multiply a model by appropriate constant . But why if you 're if you 're multi if you 're altering the model , why w in the test data , why would you have to muck with the cepstral coefficients ? professor b: Because in test in test data you ca don't have a model . professor b: That is true , but w , so what you want to do You want to say if obs you if you observe something like Stephane observes , that C - one is not important , you can do two things . professor b: If you have a trained trained recognizer , in the model , you know the the the the component which I di dimension wh phd e: All of the all of the mean and variances that correspond to C - one , you put them to zero . But what I 'm proposing now , if it is important but not as important , you multiply it by point one in a model . professor b: But but but phd e: But what are you multiplying ? Cuz those are means , right ? grad a: You 're multiplying the standard deviation ? phd e: you 're grad a: So it 's professor b: I think that you multiply the I would I would have to look in the in the math , how how does the model phd e: I think you professor b: Yeah . phd e: Yeah , I think you 'd have to modify the standard deviation or something , so that you make it wider or narrower . professor b: Effectively you , you know y in f in front of the of the model , you put a constant . grad a: right ? professor b: And and and phd e: So by making th the standard deviation narrower , your scores get worse for professor b: Yeah . By making it narrower , phd e: Right ? professor b: y your phd e: there 's you 're you 're allowing for less variance . Because see what you are fitting is the multidimensional Gaussian , right ? phd e: professor b: It 's a it has it has thirty - nine dimensions , or thirteen dimensions if you g ignore deltas and double - deltas . professor b: So in order if you in order to make dimension which which Stephane sees less important , not not useful , less important , what you do is that this particular component in the model you can multiply by w you can you can basically de - weight it in the model . But you can't do it in a in a test data because you don't have a model for th when the test comes , but what you can do is that you put this particular component in and and you compress it . phd e: Couldn't you just do that to the test data and not do anything with your training data ? professor b: That would be very bad , because your t your model was trained expecting , that wouldn't work . After you train the model , you sort of y you could do you could do still what I was proposing initially , that during the training you you compress C - one that becomes then it becomes less important in a training . professor b: But if you have if you want to run e ex extensive experiment without retraining the model , you don't have to retrain the model . But after , you wh when you are doing this parametric study of importance of C - one you will de - weight the C - one component in the model , and you will put in the you will compress the this component in a in the test data . phd e: Could you also if you wanted to if you wanted to try an experiment by leaving out say , C - one , couldn't you , in your test data , modify the all of the C - one values to be way outside of the normal range of the Gaussian for C - one that was trained in the model ? So that effectively , the C - one never really contributes to the score ? phd c: professor b: No , that would be a severe mismatch , phd e: Do you know what I 'm say professor b: right ? what you are proposing ? N no you don't want that . But what if you set if to the mean of the model , then ? And it was a cons you set all C - ones coming in through your test data , you you change whatever value that was there to the mean that your model had . professor b: I see what you are sa saying , phd c: Right ? grad a: Saying . , no , the If you set it to a mean , that would No , you can't do that . phd e: Oh , that 's true , right , yeah , because you you have phd c: Wait . Which professor b: Because that would be a really f fiddling with the data , phd e: Yeah . professor b: But what you can do , I 'm confident you ca phd e: professor b: well , I 'm reasonably confident and I putting it on the record , right ? y people will listen to it for for centuries now , is what you can do , is you train the model with the with the original data . So what you will do is that a component in the model for C - one , you will divide it by by two . Then if you think that some component is more is more important then th th th it then then i it is , based on training , then you multiply this particular component in the model by by by phd e: You 're talking about the standard deviation ? professor b: yeah . professor b: Yeah , multiply this component i it by number b larger than one , phd e: phd c: Yeah , but , at the phd e: But don't you have to do something to the mean , also ? professor b: No . phd c: But I think it 's the The variance is on on the denominator in the in the Gaussian equation . If you want to decrease the importance of a c parameter , you have to increase it 's variance . phd e: And now you 're you 're you 're changing that by squaring it . phd e: Do you see what ? phd c: I think What I see What could be done is you don't change your features , which are computed once for all , professor b: - huh . phd c: And then if you want to decrease the importance of C - one you just take the variance of the C - one component in the in the model and increase it if you want to decrease the importance of C - one or decrease it phd e: Yeah . Yeah , but , but it 's it 's i it 's do - able , phd c: Well . phd e: to get this this the effect I think that you 're talking about , professor b: phd e: Yeah , because if you had a huge variance , you 're dividing by a large number , you get a very small contribution . grad a: Doesn't matter phd c: Yeah , it becomes more flat grad a: Right . grad a: Yeah , the sharper the variance , the more more important to get that one right . phd e: Yeah , you know actually , this reminds me of something that happened when I was at BBN . phd e: And this particular pitch algorithm when it didn't think there was any voicing , was spitting out zeros . So we were getting when we did clustering , we were getting groups of features professor b: p Pretty new outliers , interesting outliers , right ? phd e: yeah , with with a mean of zero and basically zero variance . phd e: So , when ener when anytime any one of those vectors came in that had a zero in it , we got a great score . phd e: So if you have very small variance you get really good scores when you get something that matches . So that 's a way , yeah , yeah That 's a way to increase the yeah , n That 's interesting . phd e: You you have a step where you you modify the models , make a d copy of your models with whatever variance modifications you make , and rerun recognition . phd e: That could be set up fairly easily I think , and you have a whole bunch of you know professor b: Chuck is getting himself in trouble . Huh ! grad a: Didn't you say you got these HTK 's set up on the new Linux boxes ? phd e: That 's right . professor b: Hey ! phd e: In fact , and and they 're just t right now they 're installing increasing the memory on that the Linux box . professor b: And Chuck is sort of really fishing for how to keep his computer busy , grad a: Right . professor b: that 's yeah , that 's a good thing grad a: That 's right . professor b: because then y you just write the " do " - loops and then you pretend that you are working while you are sort of you c you can go fishing . Then you are sort of in this mode like all of those ARPA people are , right ? phd e: Yeah . professor b: since it is on the record , I can't say which company it was , but it was reported to me that somebody visited a company and during a d during a discussion , there was this guy who was always hitting the carriage returns on a computer . professor b: So after two hours the visitor said " wh why are you hitting this carriage return ? " And he said " well you know , we are being paid by a computer ty we are we have a government contract . " It was in old days when there were of PDP - eights and that sort of thing . phd e: Oh , my gosh ! So he had to make it look like professor b: Because so they had a they literally had to c monitor at the time at the time on a computer how much time is being spent I i i or on on this particular project . phd e: Have you ever seen those little It 's it 's this thing that 's the shape of a bird and it has a red ball and its beak dips into the water ? professor b: Yeah , I know , right . professor b: It would be similar similar to I knew some people who were that was in old Communist Czechoslovakia , right ? so we were watching for American airplanes , coming to spy on on on us at the time , phd e: professor b: so there were three guys stationed in the middle of the woods on one l lonely watching tower , pretty much spending a year and a half there because there was this service right ? And so they very quickly they made friends with local girls and local people in the village phd e: Ugh ! professor b: and phd e: Yeah . professor b: and so but they there was one plane flying over s always above , and so that was the only work which they had . They like four in the afternoon they had to report there was a plane from Prague to Brno Basically f flying there , phd e: Yeah . professor b: so they f very q f first thing was that they would always run back and and at four o ' clock and and quickly make a call , " this plane is passing " then a second thing was that they they took the line from this u u post to a local pub . And they but third thing which they made , and when they screwed up , they finally they had to p the the p the pub owner to make these phone calls because they didn't even bother to be there anymore . At least they were sort of smart enough that they looked if the plane is flying there , right ? And the pub owner says " oh my four o ' clock , OK , quickly p pick up the phone , call that there 's a plane flying . professor b: There was no plane for some reason , phd e: And there wasn't ? professor b: it was downed , or and so they got in trouble . phd e: And we 'll just professor b: Well , at least go test the s test the assumption about C - C - one to begin with . It might be that phd e: Yeah , so the first set of variance weighting vectors would be just you know one modifying one and leaving the others the same . professor b: Because you see , what is happening here in a in a in a in such a model is that it 's tells you yeah what has a low variance is is is more reliable , phd e: That would be one set of experiment professor b: right ? How do we phd e: Wh - yeah , when the data matches that , then you get really professor b: Yeah . professor b: How do we know , especially when it comes to noise ? phd e: But there could just naturally be low variance . professor b: Yeah ? phd e: Because I Like , I 've noticed in the higher cepstral coefficients , the numbers seem to get smaller , right ? So d phd c: They t phd e: just naturally . professor b: Yeah that 's why people used these lifters were inverse variance weighting lifters basically that makes Euclidean distance more like Mahalanobis distance with a diagonal covariance when you knew what all the variances were over the old data . Turns out that the variance decreases at least at fast , I believe , as the index of the cepstral coefficients . professor b: So typically what happens is that you you need to weight the weight the higher coefficients more than the lower coefficients . When we talked about Aurora still I wanted to m make a plea encourage for more communication between between different parts of the distributed center . even when there is absolutely nothing to to s to say but the weather is good in Ore - in in Berkeley . I 'm sure that it 's being appreciated in Oregon and maybe it will generate similar responses down here , like , phd c: We can set up a webcam maybe . phd e: Is the if we mail to " Aurora - inhouse " , does that go up to you guys also ? professor b: I don't think so . professor b: We should definitely set up phd e: Yeah we sh Do we have a mailing list that includes the OGI people ? professor b: Yeah . And then we also can send the the dis to the same address right , and it goes to everybody phd e: professor b: Because what 's happening naturally in research , I know , is that people essentially start working on something and they don't want to be much bothered , right ? but what the the then the danger is in a group like this , is that two people are working on the same thing and i c of course both of them come with the s very good solution , but it could have been done somehow in half of the effort or something . reasonably good one , because he 's doing it for Intel , but I trust that we have rights to use it or distribute it and everything . phd e: ! professor b: u s And so so we we will make sure that at least you can see the software and if if if if it is of any use . He says " well you know it 's very difficult to collaborate if you are working with supposedly the same thing , in quotes , except which is not s is not the same . professor b: Which which one is using that set of hurdles , another one set is using another set of hurdles . professor b: Yeah because Intel paid us should I say on a microphone ? some amount of money , not much . And they wanted to to have software so that they can also play with it , which means that it has to be in a certain environment phd e: . professor b: they use actu actually some Intel libraries , but in the process , Lucash just rewrote the whole thing because he figured rather than trying to f make sense of including ICSI software not for training on the nets phd e: . professor b: but I think he rewrote the the the or so maybe somehow reused over the parts of the thing so that so that the whole thing , including MLP , trained MLP is one piece of software . professor b: Yeah ? grad a: I remember when we were trying to put together all the ICSI software for the submission . He said that it was like it was like just so many libraries and nobody knew what was used when , and and so that 's where he started and that 's where he realized that it needs to be needs to be at least cleaned up , grad a: Yeah . Well , the the only thing I would check is if he does he use Intel math libraries , professor b: e ev phd c: because if it 's the case , it 's maybe not so easy to use it on another architecture . professor b: n not maybe Maybe not in a first maybe not in a first ap approximation because I think he started first just with a plain C C or C - plus - plus or something before phd c: Ah yeah . I never checked carefully these sorts of professor b: I know there was some issues that initially of course we d do all the development on Linux but we use we don't have we have only three s SUNs and we have them only because they have a SPERT board in . In that way Intel succeeded with us , because they gave us too many good machines for very little money or nothing . phd e: The way that it works is each person goes around in turn , and you say the transcript number and then you read the digits , the the strings of numbers as individual digits . phd e: So you don't say " eight hundred and fifty " , you say " eight five oh " , and so forth

The professor shared news about Guenter Hirsch leaving Ericsson and the possibility of Ericsson withdrawing from Aurora. It was mentioned that Guenter Hirsch had been happily employed at a nearby technical college for the past two to three years. Additionally, the professor recounted a story about soldiers assigned to watch for spy planes, highlighting the importance of not making assumptions without verifying them. The soldiers, after establishing a pattern, stopped looking for the plane and spent time with the locals instead. However, they got into trouble when they reported the plane on a day it didn't show up. This story served as a lesson about the significance of testing assumptions even after making small changes.

What were the professor's comments about Guenter and the soldiers?

project manager: He he he industrial designer: So what can you ? project manager: You did work together didn't you ? industrial designer: Yeah we will yeah , so I will be able to to summarize our meeting , project manager: Yes . yes industrial designer: can we have a phone , project manager: but w we industrial designer: can someone project manager: Yes , maybe we should phone him . project manager: And well first thing I was I got an email from from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the twelve Euro and fifty cents . project manager: when you stay in it's good , when you don't stay in you have to redesign . marketing: Well we can't no we can't do evaluation 'til we have a design . So I will start by the the basic one that fits into eight Euros actually , right , seven eight Euros , marketing: industrial designer: and well first for both they have a special shape , maybe the designer can explain better than me , but it's like a surf board . industrial designer: And you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf T_V_ , maybe the web , and it's kind of interesting shape because unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff . Don't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we don't take user interface: Now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now . industrial designer: yeah L_A_ L_A_ L_E_D_ , user interface: L_E_D_ . industrial designer: How can you change from V_C_R_ to T_V_ , by the way ? user interface: Oh no no no , this is a single this this is a model with just the T_V_ one . user interface: No no just sorry , this is a standard T_V_ one , we are not talking about that . So and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits . And the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . marketing: it's it's t a very basic remote then , it's only user interface: It's a very basic minimal thing marketing: . user interface: which you can which is which is also available in the market , actually that's what it that it i industrial designer: user interface: and would cost us to build it about eight Euros . project manager: Exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons . industrial designer: user interface: Th this is a magic one but I know we don't want to talk about that , marketing: user interface: you know like industrial designer: user interface: i i i it is a very futuristic , it's like it's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come . user interface: So that then what we look t marketing: Did you wanna see ? user interface: yeah . Yeah no you can carry on , user interface: This is a model , project manager: I just look how it feels all . industrial designer: project manager: So but but continue with your user interface: so well project manager: user interface: then the this is the a more a little smooth industrial designer: user interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , in this way , so all we have th you see there are only six keys , but don't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here . user interface: and it's easy to use this and you have so this is a standard infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have , project manager: user interface: and then other than that you have channel up and down and f slow pause or s slow lo industrial designer: Play , pause . user interface: yeah s pause or stop , and then you can you have a L_C_D_ display , here project manager: user interface: and y this is a functional thing which can change like it's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it project manager: From D_V_D_ player to television or something . project manager: Yes and and and then you get feedback via the L_C_D_ yeah . user interface: The L_C_D_ can display what is that on that , industrial designer: Yes . user interface: and well you can have a integrated microphone over here , industrial designer: This is the orange button , the microphone . user interface: so which can basically you want to do a speech recognition and that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the on your on your display . user interface: And here is a small L_E_D_ which is like blinking one , project manager: user interface: which tells you like are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as I was talking earlier project manager: And well then we have a cover basically , basically you don't need much of the time this , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover project manager: . project manager: but but but but i in there when this is closed , will it also cover up the L_C_D_ screen ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: But but the L_C_D_ screen is a very well an eye-attracting feature industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: project manager: which shouldn't be shouldn't be user interface: Actually when you are watching the T_V_ , when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here , industrial designer: Oh actually well . user interface: you know , you want to and this gives a protection to the L_C_D_ actually , giving a cover to that actually . user interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec project manager: industrial designer: So the the cost is actually a bit more , it's it's it's sixteen Francs . project manager: But w industrial designer: But the the main point we we talk about that with our manufacturer . And they say basically that the S_R_ system would be something like three Francs per item user interface: Yeah . And marketing: That's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ? industrial designer: No no no , part of that , yeah . user interface: Well if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more some more keys if you want to you know project manager: industrial designer: it's too user interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything . marketing: What's this one on the side ? user interface: Ah that's for the it's kind of a L_E_D_ for indicating your battery industrial designer: Locati . project manager: Be before ta talking about the money and what's possible and what is not possible , maybe Anna you can give our give us your marketing: marketing: We just wanna make sure that we've taken into account project manager: Well marketing: Yep . marketing: So it's just a shortlist of criteria on the things that we've identified as being important to selling the product . marketing: we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so These are the things we identified as being important . the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components project manager: marketing: appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . And then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . So well do you wanna go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wanna discuss them further and then evaluate them ? project manager: n no why not why not discuss discuss it now , marketing: Okay . So the first one was really very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'Cause if we're only going to make it for eight Euros then we have a project manager: well my my personal view is w when when this one is eight Euros we must think how can we improve it . project manager: And then w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half Euro marketing: project manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik quite fixed on twenty five Euros industrial designer: project manager: so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer he can have for twenty five Euro . Oh , you following the idea of using the removable covers on these ? Is that part of both of them or ? project manager: well w w we can still discuss that . project manager: So , and together with evaluating this we we might come with new ideas marketing: project manager: adding things or removing of options because they are too expensive , marketing: project manager: No okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production production unit for several components , industrial designer: project manager: so we can see whether the the price is is within the twelve Euro fifty cents . user interface: project manager: In i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand , marketing: marketing: On the scale u it's between functional and fancy basically we're looking at , project manager: So maybe two . Ma ma ma ma maybe say say five marketing: so project manager: I It's my opinion , but I don't know what what user interface: Well I will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it's like the surf as you say marketing: industrial designer: If you press like this not like this then you marketing: No that's the industrial designer: user interface: No . user interface: C can you get the batteries ? No no the battery has fallen down , marketing: Battery's low , isn't it the ink ? user interface: that's i marketing: The b that's the that that one ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: But user interface: No no it's not that , it's how to close a battery . marketing: No it's It would still write project manager: Oh it will not marketing: but it wouldn't pick it up with the sensors . marketing: You got a second ? industrial designer: Try a marketing: Well we won't be able to tell . marketing: Because we'll be able to see it still even if it wasn't working , it's just a normal whiteboard marker industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . marketing: it's hard to tell from just the plasticine , project manager: I I I marketing: but project manager: When we want to include I I I'm doubting about this this component . industrial designer: maybe user interface: No actually this is this is not going to protrude actually , marketing: Okay . user interface: it it's n i it is jus industrial designer: It's not a button it's a led , it's a user interface: It's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve industrial designer: Ac actually yeah it should be embedded . marketing: 'Cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand , user interface: Yeah . user interface: No you it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that marketing: Okay . project manager: Well r r marketing: I'd say two or three for that one , personally . project manager: I think the look is better industrial designer: project manager: but the feel is is is worse . project manager: But w w do you what do you think ? user interface: it's fine I think . My just that the feel is that you right now you you don't see the feel because right for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it's embedded one . user interface: This is how embedded one will project manager: Yes , it basically is the same shape . user interface: You will be Except that in this c industrial designer: And the L_C_D_ makes it better . marketing: So , consensus ? Two or three ? project manager: Two ? marketing: Two ? project manager: . The first one , not really muc industrial designer: Basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market , marketing: . industrial designer: right ? marketing: Do we user interface: No but except for the design of the surf . marketing: What What features are we actually including ? user interface: You should be rea marketing: Are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? user interface: no marketing: There's nothing like that ? user interface: I think it's more of the feel . marketing: But th is there any there's no actual innovation in that at all , it's just a straight-out remote control . project manager: S so that marketing: So there's no this look and feel thing , though that's not a technological innovation . marketing: So what is it , what are the innovations with this ? Got the L_C_D_ screen . marketing: Is that in this one though ? Is this 'cause this is the Th th there were different options we discussed then , user interface: No , we ha marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget . marketing: So the cost for these were industrial designer: So marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? Eight Euros ? project manager: Eight . Innovation for this one is two ? One ? user interface: It's a two , I would say two . industrial designer: W W un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , I don't see project manager: Why it is one . project manager: This this is it w with the speech recognition ? industrial designer: It's using speech recognition , yeah . project manager: Gi given that that it works , marketing: Give it a one ? industrial designer: Yeah , one , yeah . project manager: marketing: Ease of use ? user interface: industrial designer: So the first one is really standard , marketing: . industrial designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it , user interface: He is used to it act marketing: Yeah . user interface: though it has more functionality I think it shouldn't be for the user to learn it actually . user interface: yeah , actually in fact I think it will be industrial designer: One me we hope user interface: Yeah industrial designer: maybe sometimes people get scared with the number of buttons . industrial designer: because it's n it's not like a big one with one hundred buttons or so , user interface: Yeah it's a project manager: No . user interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually , marketing: marketing: So three's project manager: What's the next ? marketing: how well it goes to the target demographic . So we're d we're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? project manager: So user interface: . project manager: Twe twenty to forty , yes that's marketing: That's industrial designer: This one would be for grandmothers . that's that's something which which has an appeal on this group I think , industrial designer: Yeah that's true . If it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then I can imagine it being applying to the the demographic project manager: but industrial designer: Yeah . That's it's still Ye project manager: w w w we after this we can can consider for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic marketing: . 'Cause we have got room , we've got some budget there to add a few things to it , project manager: . marketing: And project manager: Do you agree ? user interface: I industrial designer: Yeah because it's so important it's i it was written that it really so important , the the the look and taking care of its it targets , the right range of people , user interface: Well I think marketing: . marketing: But it's going to be cheap whatever though , industrial designer: But w user interface: So marketing: it was set with i we've got a set price . user interface: instead of a industrial designer: But for us it's yeah we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five Euros . There's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few Euros on that one rather than another one . marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? user interface: And the demographics of marketing: It's got the got the the toys in it , it's got the L_C_D_ screen project manager: Yeah tha tha tha tha tha that's marketing: and project manager: I think it's better , marketing: . project manager: because of the L_C_D_ screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the marketing: Yeah . And if you want to target yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , I think for this audience we need absolutely the L_C_D_ screen . marketing: I think especially if we're gonna n have an L_C_D_ screen on a low range product then that's good . project manager: Because it , ma maybe that's something to consider , yes , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Because then you you have it d you have lot of things which you can include marketing: Yeah . And especially I guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well , user interface: for the people to marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it's more of a a new fun toy . project manager: I think industrial designer: Spongy , that means that it goes in in the water . marketing: Well , project manager: marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well , user interface: marketing: I know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but I'm thinking one of the Nokias that's got like you ca it hasn't got individual buttons industrial designer: okay . project manager: And the then we can al marketing: Or is it just one industrial designer: Yeah . We can we can consider is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? marketing: Well they make it for mobiles , it can't be that much more complicated . user interface: But why do you want to cover that actually ? In that w in the mod project manager: Well just with the with the flexible plastic marketing: So you got the option of having different colours or different textures . project manager: I th I th I think user interface: y are you sure ? Yeah I think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah . project manager: so Maybe we can but we have to decide it , we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers marketing: marketing: I think the if we do the cover that's really going with the company's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion project manager: . marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it'll still be in fashion . 'Cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it's all black , marketing: . industrial designer: and it's quite conventional , and sometimes people don't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here . industrial designer: So maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard things . project manager: marketing: Although it is more with the spongy buttons on the on the other one . project manager: this one has spongy but buttons ? industrial designer: Yeah , the blue one spongy . marketing: Okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five nine by five , one point s eight ? project manager: Just add it . marketing: This one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two user interface: Four point four point two . But we still got a very different price for those two so they're not really comparable yet anyway . project manager: Because , when we choose for this one we have to we have to make it more attractive marketing: marketing: Well it's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out . project manager: But I'm now did y did you work with the same prices that I have here ? industrial designer: So I I give yeah I just give a call with the manufacturer and I explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen Fr Euros . So let's let's try to to model this this phone in this sheet , user interface: It's a it's a normal battery , or user interface: Yeah , it migh It it'll need more than a conventional one , it won't be just maybe you might use a A_A_ battery actually . What do you say , Mael ? industrial designer: For this one it's a normal battery . industrial designer: So which one are we talking to ? user interface: Are you talking about this or that ? industrial designer: Well marketing: Either of them . project manager: Oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape , user interface: industrial designer: Is it zero Franc ? user interface: A special colour ? project manager: special colour , now we leave it to the covers . user interface: marketing: So now we're either going button or L_C_D_s , L_C_D_ display . marketing: Is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ? project manager: Yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components . user interface: Yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ? industrial designer: No but for this one it's twelve Euro . industrial designer: There are twelve ? project manager: So , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , user interface: Yeah that's a scroll . project manager: So marketing: So we'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . user interface: project manager: So I think but th do you agree th that thi industrial designer: Wait a minute , it's not it's not double curved , it's single curved , right ? Because it's there is no like . marketing: But I thought it would be curved on two project manager: Yes I marketing: it's like it's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that's what I thought . project manager: Yes I'm I'm no I'm no I'm not sh sure . industrial designer: Well project manager: Yes I kno undes I understand what you mean , yes . industrial designer: it's you know this curve like this so , it's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are marketing: You talking about concave curves ? project manager: -huh . industrial designer: So I think we can put marketing: You think a single curved ? industrial designer: the single curved in the sixteen . marketing: We have more , we've got those the scroll wheel on the side industrial designer: So marketing: and yeah industrial designer: I had a bad bad estimation . user interface: Bad estimate , marketing: The sc project manager: W d user interface: right ? project manager: we have we haven't talk about a , but that's no a is very exp inexpensive I believe marketing: . marketing: We've got a scroll wheel for the volume don't we , or is it some other thing that's not on there . project manager: W ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides so for higher and lower ? industrial designer: No no no . marketing: 'Kay we've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast . industrial designer: Okay , user interface: industrial designer: so based on that , yeah , where is the es okay sample speaker user interface: That is the sample sensor and sample speaker . project manager: So industrial designer: But still , yeah it user interface: We just need that actually . project manager: We're We We could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we can't have the the speech recognition , yes ? Yes ? industrial designer: No we cannot , yeah . project manager: So so w when we w a industrial designer: So user interface: S project manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition . industrial designer: But the Yeah but if you have the near the L_C_D_ you can choose select between you know like uni universal between audio , T_V_ and V_C_R_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip . project manager: Transti industrial designer: Right , Matthew ? user interface: Oh I i it industrial designer: Or regular chip ? user interface: I think it's going to be y y industrial designer: I think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip . And what about the number of buttons buttons my Matthew ? project manager: Yes but that maybe Well we can just say user interface: industrial designer: project manager: one . project manager: Ca l we are just when we just want to to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty . industrial designer: But project manager: So is it possible ? marketing: But that's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material . user interface: That'll be then we have have to ask the user to press it several times . industrial designer: You cannot make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low , project manager: user interface: project manager: No no , marketing: Well project manager: he he he I I industrial designer: no ? user interface: marketing: So the L_C_D_ display is is three Francs , sorry three Euros , by itself . industrial designer: And we don't want to to change that right ? We we really want a L_C_D_ user interface: project manager: marketing: So twelve Euro fifty , we got two off of the battery , industrial designer: And I dunno marketing: we can't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an L_C_D_ dispra display , that's seven fifty , so we've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . marketing: So we're gonna have to scale this down to get within budget , there's no doubt about that . project manager: A industrial designer: So wha what what each of us think about the because it's measure point the L_C_D_ , Do you think it's important ? user interface: Or we could even replace them by buttons actually . industrial designer: Because sometimes whe when you watch the T_V_ in fact , you have a big display and maybe you don't need one more in your hands ? I dunno , I'm just asking . project manager: user interface: A actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it , marketing: Yep . user interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or and you'll have L_C_D_ display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two Euros at least . I think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the L_C_D_ display . user interface: Okay so we can get rid of it industrial designer: Yeah , it's true yeah . What do you think , L_C_D_ is a major feature , or ? project manager: . I marketing: For the price , it's gonna be what we can afford , and it's looking like we can't afford the L_C_D_ display , there's no way we can get it in there . project manager: I think we have to come to a decision now , just I I think we we what we just do i is vote about the the L_C_D_ display marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: You assume , you want a democratic voyt vote , project manager: Yes . project manager: S so who thinks the the L_C_D_ disply display should be i should be in it ? marketing: I th I'd like t it to be in but I can't see it happening . user interface: Yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that . project manager: So having an L_C_D_ s display is just have very very limited amount of buttons . user interface: W I I I just project manager: So hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve . industrial designer: Because one yeah th show me that actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three possibilities for each of the three here . user interface: No , it's okay , you cut the L_C_D_ screen project manager: Just user interface: and introduce two more buttons . So L_C_D_'s out , is speech rec out now ? We've industrial designer: The speech recognition is out . project manager: Okay w we now we can just marketing: So are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? Which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . Well that's that's project manager: My m my supervisor will be glad that it's fifty cents cheaper than he expected . marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment <doc-sep> then we'll do the evaluation , and then we can finish up after that with any changes that we'll need to make , or hopefully everything will fall right in line . Then we looked at the components the materials for the case , the different energy sources , the different types of chips , and made a decision on what we were going to use to make our remote . industrial designer: Can try to plug that in there user interface: There is our remo the banana . project manager: user interface: but it would be held in such a fashion , marketing: user interface: where it is , obviously it wouldn't be that floppy 'cause this would be hard plastic . So that's so that would hopefully help with grip , or like the ergonomics of it . user interface: And the the simplest functions would be almost identical to an iPod , where that one way ch through channels , that way th other way through channels . And then to access the more complicated functions you'd you sorta go , you press that and go through the menus . T that blue bits should be yellow , that that'd be where the batteries would be I suppose . user interface: Is there anything you want to add ? industrial designer: That's what we have there . you're supposed to hold it like that , but just if you grab it , take it from somewhere , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Right ? that's not project manager: industrial designer: I'd say a bit smaller would probably be nice . user interface: It's you know it's flimsy 'cause it's made out of heavy Play-Doh , marketing: project manager: Would you like to industrial designer: Right . so the criteria we're gonna be looking at are the complaints that we heard from the users who were interviewed earlier . So for the first one , we need to decide , did we solved the problem of the users who complained about an ugly remote ? industrial designer: . project manager: So if they think that what is out there is ugly , then yes I would say , I would say most definitely . industrial designer: I'd say , when it comes to the ergonomics , the form and stuff , yes that's definitely more beautiful than your average . industrial designer: So to answer that honestly I would rather say like , we have not solved the problem completely with the ugly remote because the colour is ugly , definitely . industrial designer: But project manager: Yeah something more modern to go a a modern colour to go with the modern form . You don't want your three feet huge L_C_D_ dis display in your living room that's hanging from the wall to be controlled with something like that . marketing: okay so , do you think , since we This was a a sign criteria , do you think maybe we should put it somewhere in the middle then ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: What do you think ? Three ? Four ? project manager: I would say marketing: Five ? project manager: four . Did we make it simple for new users ? industrial designer: It's very intuitive , I think yeah . 'Cause we've we've brought it down to basically four controls most common , which are channel and volume . project manager: So if we incorporate speech recognition into it then it could user interface: Just just to use , to find it when it was lost . But like I said , like I don't think you'd lose something so yellow so easily . user interface: And it's not gonna fall , like a rectangle would slip down behind things . That's gonna be a difficult shape to industrial designer: Well what project manager: And it is quite bright and user interface: Yeah . marketing: user interface: Maybe in the middle again , three or four or something ? project manager: industrial designer: S marketing: Okay . user interface: you know loo losing things is one of those things that people can lose , a million ways . user interface: You can pick it up and walk away with it and then you've lost it . project manager: But if we do go with the , with the speech recognition , then it , then our scale goes up quite a bit I think . If we eliminate the fact that you know it's impossible to guarantee that it's not gonna be lost then user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: With the speech recognition , which of course may be changed depending on budget . project manager: Which , which may be cheaper than speech recognition if it were just a industrial designer: Yes . marketing: Annoying alarm or something ? project manager: industrial designer: It's it's marketing: Yeah . user interface: So it can't be that industrial designer: the it's based on this anti anti-theft technology for suitcases and stuff , user interface: expensive . industrial designer: where you have one piece that's attached to your luggage , another piece that starts beeping . industrial designer: So that can also easily be integrated because these things are small enough to to hide , so you have one piece , you have to glue somewhere behind your stick it behind your T_V_ and the other user interface: stick it on the T_V_ . Are we adding one of these two features ? industrial designer: Let's add one of those features and say yes . industrial designer: user interface: don't get many mo remote controls with industrial designer: It's all just user interface: screens on . industrial designer: It's all just stolen technology when it comes down to user interface: Yeah it's stolen technology . project manager: But there's not a lot of yellow , there's not a lotta yellow . project manager: Course that wasn't really industrial designer: right user interface: Fa industrial designer: right right . marketing: But how many remotes do you see like this ? user interface: project manager: If we added the screaming factor then we go up . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: I would say we're probably at four . Because it's only got what , these parts are the grips and perhaps the back side the bottom the underneath on the back . marketing: And lastly , did we put the fashion in electronics ? project manager: industrial designer: Y yes . marketing: industrial designer: Well the recent fashion is rather displayed in the in the L_C_D_ and the way you operate it than the form and the colour , user interface: On the project manager: It's true . industrial designer: but it definitely is user interface: Be what we were told , and they'd say yeah , definitely . project manager: Two point marketing: project manager: two point four ? user interface: Is that some long division ? No . project manager: And what what is the acceptable criteria ? Is there like a scale that we have to hit ? marketing: Oh no . They just told me to industrial designer: marketing: pick my own criteria and have you guys evaluate it basically . industrial designer: project manager: The f the Wonder if I can make this industrial designer: project manager: What the Oh it won't let me do that . I can't 'cause I don't have my glasses on , industrial designer: project manager: but so we've got the energy source . and how many batteries do we think this will probably take ? user interface: project manager: Probably some e either two or four . industrial designer: At four it's gonna be too heavy , so that that's not our problem . industrial designer: project manager: Alright so for the electronics our choices are simpl simple chip-on-print , regular chip-on-print , advanced chip-on-print , sample sensor , sample speaker . user interface: We're advanced chip are we ? industrial designer: That's the advanced chip-on-print , yeah . project manager: Is that right or is it just one ? industrial designer: No that's just one . project manager: Maybe it's one because of the industrial designer: It's just one mo single mould , we can do that . project manager: I guess it doesn't matter 'cause the price on that one is zero , which is nice . We have pushbutton , scroll-wheel interface , integrated scroll-wheel pushbutton , and an L_C_D_ display . user interface: marketing: user interface: S industrial designer: S user interface: That's Yeah . project manager: So we actually have the L_C_D_ display marketing: user interface: And then project manager: and then is it the integrated or is it user interface: I'd say the integrated . project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Say mahogany or so marketing: It'd look really lovely . project manager: Well we only have one button so really we shouldn't be charged , industrial designer: just marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we shouldn't be charged anything for the the button supplements . We're gonna leave that one blank because we run on a L_C_D_ and scroll . So we'll go for the hand dynamo huh ? project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: So the only thing better than a banana-shaped remote is one that you shake . user interface: If it w What if we completely took out the the one single button we've got on . I suppose the L_C_D_ C_ display's the one that's pushing it up a bit though . project manager: Yeah 'cause the marketing: project manager: Well 'cause we have to have both right ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: let's let's face it , it also depends on the software on the on the television . industrial designer: You can have the the information that this thing transmits be being displayed on the on the screen . industrial designer: So s yeah let's take away the user interface: Yeah you could maybe take out the L_C_D_ dis display even , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: if it if it comes up on the computer itsel on the T_V_ itself . project manager: So we may not need the L_C_D_ display ? user interface: that is possible yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Okay , the user interface: marketing: project manager: Besides look at what the L_C_D_ does to our lovely remote . industrial designer: So we can just take away a heck of a lot of the marketing: user interface: marketing: . central ? marketing: What's the blue part ? user interface: That was just industrial designer: Oh that's just user interface: we ran out of yellow . project process , satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , new ideas found . project manager: Yeah I think user interface: We sort of knew where we were going straight away I thought . marketing: project manager: marketing: project manager: But as the day went along we had more idea of what we were doing . I think we tried a lotta different things and I think it was interesting as you guys brought up more information and studies that we were right on with a lot of those things . project manager: I had some problem with the pen I think , but minus your p marketing: Minus your PowerPoint fiasco . Incom industrial designer: they've just you know user interface: project manager: Have a industrial designer: Heads are gonna roll , believe me . And then we'll have to check with the main boss whether we can , what goes on after that <doc-sep>project manager: Yeah on your computer , or the industrial designer: But where ? project manager: What's the name ? industrial designer: project manager: What's the name of it ? industrial designer: It was about the working of the remote control . I just had an half an hour j to study it user interface: industrial designer: and I don't get it . industrial designer: First I will tell you something about the findings , what I discovered about the remote control . then I'll have some kind of map , and it's the top of the remote control . The remote control is a very difficult thing to to explain to just all of you wh who haven't seen a remote control inside . there's a lot of plastic on it , marketing: industrial designer: because its not so expensive . And there are a lot of wires , which connect the components in it , the battery , and there are switches and things like that . but we can also use it a bleep like something , when the battery's empty , then there is a bleep . And also the bleep , when what I told you about when you lost it , and you push a button , and then you hear bleep bleep , and we will find it . Why ? industrial designer: If we w if we use only just one small pen-light , then it will be cheaper than when we use two . When you use it on the television , you've you need the television , wh which can use it . But I think this our remote control is for the televisions we we sell in our company ? project manager: Okay . industrial designer: Or is it also for other company for other televisions ? project manager: I think we have to use it also on other televisions though . And on the other tele televisions , you can also use it , but then we won't use the project manager: Yeah but I don't I think it They are two different things though . But , to have a trendy remote control , we can also make something like the Nokia mobile phones . marketing: Will this will this add to the cost ? industrial designer: then it won't be will have just one cover on the original one . D does it make it more difficult to design ? industrial designer: I think it will be a little more difficult , but not too much . project manager: industrial designer: Yeah but then we'll have to to just put five covers on it , and see if it works . project manager: Yeah but are their profits bigger than their cost ? industrial designer: a p a a cover made in in China , it it won't be I guess so expensive I think . I don't think When you have a remote control , do you change the cover ? Would you change the cover ? industrial designer: Maybe . industrial designer: But maybe I think trendy people or like children where you can paint on it , and the the children think , oh this is my remote control , I made a picture on it . And the other people ? What do you think about it ? marketing: user interface: Yeah it's a good idea . But If if it Yeah , I don't I'm not sure if it will make profit enough to industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: user interface: I thought the the the technical function design was to for a remote control to to to have some influence on the T_V_ set . And and and and well basic operations like on and off , and switching channels , and and maybe teletext or something like that . But shall we make a basic remote control , just swapping channels and volume and power button and well nothing much more . any ideas about that ? Basic or multifunctional ? project manager: We'll got back on that later . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: So So I'm gonna have a presentation about the market , about yeah what people think . among them design , d d how d did they like the use of it , what frustrations they had while using remote controls . Which buttons find users very important and which which not ? And how much would they use them ? Well the most used button is the channel selection . not important they found the audio , that's not the volume but specific the the pitch , or the left or right . And to come back on the the swapping things , I don't think , I I think the younger will be most interest in it . If you have an L_C_D_ on the remote control , what would you think of it . Now if we look back at this graph , we can see that among the first group is about sixty percent . of course n saying we aim at the young group doesn't say that old people won't buy it . So if you make a remote control that is very easy to use , that's especially aimed at this group , even the young group will also be more interested . So you don't have to have a lot of audio options , or screen options to change the brightness . One thing I did not say I think , is that a lot of users also said then I would buy a good looking remote control if there will be one . industrial designer: If we aim for the younger people , and there will be a lot of features like L_C_D_ or the the the speech f recognising , the cost will be a lot of h a lot higher . user interface: And I don't I don't think twenty five Euros for a remote is really cheap or something . not everyone who is looking T_V_ can go to internet when they want to see the latest news . marketing: project manager: So what controls do we need ? Who first ? user interface: Well a power button ? marketing: project manager: Okay . Do we make a menu ? project manager: Menu ? yes the n newer televisions ha do have menus . project manager: And Hello ? That's ch marketing: I think it will be q quite easy to use , to have four arrows . And if you press the menu button you get into the menu , and you can use the same buttons . project manager: On the L_C_D_ screen , you mean ? marketing: well yeah that depends on if you have the menu on the T_V_ . project manager: Think it's better to have it on the remote control , 'cause it it has to work on all televisions . But well if you aim at the younger market , a as they as s as we seen in the usability lab , they will buy a nice looking remote control . So if we have a L_C_D_ sh screen , and not too many buttons , I think that will incre even when it's a bit more cost , it will still sell . industrial designer: And we don't yet have to decide what the remote control would look like ? Or project manager: No that's for the next phase <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: and , I'll be taking minutes on this one , and Being hooked up to the PowerPoint for this meeting isn't very necessary for myself , because it'll be more about , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . 'Cause I was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . industrial designer: so I was looking at how we're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . And it needs to allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . , from , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there're certain points that will make our product unique . And we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we're using a mobile phone , or something fam familiar . Or we could use fluorescent materials which would just take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . So if we lost the remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . , another thing I think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . , from previous researches I've carried out on other projects , we've learnt about smart materials where specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: So they can be heated and and cooled , and they change the shape of the metal . So , for example , a screw that's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . So , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , everything would spring apart . So , all the individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and I think that would be very important for products now . Especially 'cause there's much responsibility for all the companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'Cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: So that , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: And then Yeah . Yeah they would , you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it's the product's responsibility to get rid of what they've made . , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gonna wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . Something like the case , if it's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . Would we be the company that would break down these , or metals ? Or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: You could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . industrial designer: but project manager: One thing we have to consider is our one hundred percent turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . project manager: so we'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Well I the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they don't need to be manually de deconstructed . industrial designer: So I suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: Alright . project manager: I'm sorry , could you industrial designer: There we go project manager: Those were industrial designer: . , an' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . industrial designer: Okay ? So , now is it F_ eight again to escape ? Or escape ? There we go . Can you see ? marketing: Oh , user interface: Do you think Is it , function eight yeah ? project manager: Yeah . , in this case it's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . By taking inspiration from other similar designs , we'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . A single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . user interface: I think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it's easier to use . , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . And probably more sellable just because it's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . Does anyone have any questions ? marketing: So as far as we know , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: Well , it's just that , when we're creating it , we're , we have to make it compatible with different brands of devices . user interface: And it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: D_V_D_s and V_C_R_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: Right . project manager: Does everyone agree with this ? Does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: I was just wondering about the , what , what Genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . And that would probably , I d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . Do you think ? marketing: Yeah , I think I agree with the single design thing for now , because we're trying to do so much , that if we're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it's also multi also multifunctional , we're gonna go over budget for one thing . project manager: Alright , well , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation Genevieve ? marketing: Yes I am . Except you're not hooked up to the marketing: Oh , user interface: marketing: I'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? The functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . , I've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , and some internet research . project manager: I'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . marketing: Any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: . marketing: you know who's famous , what T_V_ shows are being watched , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: the other twenty five percent didn't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . project manager: I'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . You mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: Yeah , they're willing , they're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . marketing: As opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . project manager: And another thing with lots of surfing , we'd probably have to work on something that could be a lot more durable , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: because I find with channel-changers that , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they're printed on the button . marketing: And actually to go with that , I'm gonna give you some statistics on the relevancy of the buttons , how much they're used . , so obviously when commercials come on they're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that's not gonna run down . user interface: It has T_V_ has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . marketing: So like a running banner , underneath project manager: No it's a button that you press , and then you , like a menu pops up . industrial designer: It's like user interface: And you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it'll come up . industrial designer: Yeah , it's just information that , like television timetables , what's on , what's on now , what's on next , on every channel , and marketing: Right . Well I guess I'm not with it , because I wasn't But it's , it's being used fourteen times an hour . So it looks like something that we're gonna want to do some research on and include on our remote control . You know if you get a new T_V_ set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: To get the right reception and picture , I suppose . marketing: Is that what it is ? People with arthritis and such ? project manager: That's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: maybe our industrial designer: Oh , I'm guessing that's what it is . marketing: But we'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . Ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s Interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . So I guess we're gonna have to figure out what age group we're , we're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wanna look into . project manager: I agree with if we're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . project manager: and especially if we are trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . project manager: ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably won't be as concerned . I don't know if it'd be , if we'd still have a remote , or if you're talking to your television and saying change channel . marketing: So it m it may be too complicated for us , but it's something to keep in mind anyway . industrial designer: And if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: although in theory it doesn't tend to be when you're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific design . project manager: We need to decide if that is our intention is , is a simplistic design . project manager: because if , if it is then I think voice , voice-activated marketing: It looks like project manager: Yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they won't be using a , they won't be talking into a remote , I'm sure . an L_C_D_ screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this PowerPoint is working . industrial designer: What , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: I have no idea still . marketing: now that's , I , I dunno exactly what exactly we'd put on there . Could it it It would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . But that would probably be industrial designer: Like linked in with the teletext , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: marketing: Well I guess that's something we can all take back to our respective research . Every remote control looks the same , so in my opinion it should be , user-friendly and unique . user interface: marketing: So if we're , if we're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: . if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . But if we wanna make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . user interface: And we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five Euros to spend on a remote control . Like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they're just starting out marketing: you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah I'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that's three months allowance . marketing: so I I think , I think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . And if one of the largest , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: Twenties . project manager: I'm sure that something like an L_C_D_ screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . Before we go into more discussion on we want this design to look like , I've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . , for one thing , because Having controls with D_V_D_ , V_C_R_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . , we've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television function . Which is good as , as we've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . Another thing that might affect other decisions is that the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . industrial designer: Were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: well , we don't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: Yeah . This is for the design , the design of the product is that we wanna create , more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . So , all the remote controls must have our We'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . project manager: So , perhaps our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . project manager: it doesn't have to be the colour of our of our company industrial designer: Just project manager: but , another thing is that , industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . , I'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting I , I wasn't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . , so , now we need to discuss , and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . industrial designer: marketing: Okay , so I Are we going to write off the L_C_D_ option ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: I think it would be annoying though if I don't use teletext that much , but if it was on your T_V_ , you'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: Yeah , but another thing is that if we're reaching an international crowd , I know for one that in North America there is no such thing as teletext , so it'd be really superfluous . project manager: Do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: I don't know . industrial designer: But if Was it a management decision that we're having project manager: It was a management decision , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: so it's , it's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: Minimal marketing: And the What was the word they used ? F findability is important . project manager: 'Cause I'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: Yeah . user interface: Would you be able to , put the little device anywhere ? 'Cause isn't our remote control for all T_V_s , so industrial designer: If user interface: you'd ha industrial designer: Do you mean the the link between the user interface: Yeah , with the button that you pressed . user interface: C 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one T_V_ set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . project manager: Yeah , it would have t industrial designer: Maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be yeah not very obtrusive . Then it wouldn't , it probably wouldn't be able to use It would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control I guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . user interface: Would it need a battery then ? project manager: Maybe , industrial designer: Pr probably . industrial designer: Unless it could be project manager: That's your department you'll have to sort that out . , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the T_V_'s supplied from . project manager: Yeah , you'll have to industrial designer: So , more research into that one . project manager: Yeah , you'll have to investi Do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: Yeah . , alright , and I'm sure that , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , is a go ahead . Is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: Y marketing: On the buttons ? user interface: I I like the light up suggestion . user interface: 'Cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: it doesn't user interface: I would go for marketing: It could it could be a tactile thing as well . right , if w if we're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . industrial designer: Like a raised marketing: and I don't know what we could do for , for channels . S user interface: Well just the numbers could be embossed , couldn't it ? Like raised . user interface: Just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: Yeah marketing: Yeah . marketing: I just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . project manager: But industrial designer: And also y , Heather you mentioned before , like how it should be accessible to everybody . industrial designer: So like you say tactile might be better , because it'd be more available to everybody . Could we somehow We could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . project manager: 'Cause I d I don't think that glow-in-the-dark material , like the actual soft plastic , costs that much more than other colours . marketing: I guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you're s and then it goes , industrial designer: Yeah . I know , I'm thinking of mostly when you're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . marketing: And you don't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there's suddenly an explosion , and it's gonna wake up the baby . industrial designer: I project manager: for the meeting , but I think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . What were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: Oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell You know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . marketing: if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it's touched again . marketing: Yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: So , self-timed marketing: So if you have all the lights off in your living room , you'll , you'll temporarily see it . project manager: So , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? Do we have to kind of decide what we're gonna do with this . And as you're saying like numbers can wear off if they're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . And it could , if it's that softer rubber material it'll be , maybe , better for people with els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what's it called , R_S_I_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: Oh yeah . , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: project manager: Or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: If project manager: Like should we do both ? Or we can have one or the other ? Because it might , for , for our design purposes , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . industrial designer: Yeah , and we could marketing: whereas we're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: Yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: So industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . industrial designer: or like we've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: Right . user interface: I was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the Real Reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . And do you have anything marketing: What project manager: Do you have anything to say ? marketing: Oh sorry . So I I dunno if there's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . I dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . Interchangeable thing ? marketing: Yeah , project manager: Like an iPod or something ? user interface: That would be good . marketing: And I dunno if we'd want to go with like T_V_ show themes or something . user interface: Yeah , and then that would be more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . You could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: als project manager: You'd just get one mould , user interface: No . industrial designer: Interchan And also possible , we could gain out of that by advertising certain T_V_ shows , or project manager: Yeah . project manager: So , if it takes off then we'll , we'll , we'll try that out . project manager: Do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: I've project manager: Because we need to investigate the financial implications . Is it industrial designer: Let's project manager: Does it need to be decided on now ? Or should we industrial designer: I think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then <doc-sep>So just to try and roughly go over what we agreed in the last one , we're gonna go for something how was it ? The new black , I believe . project manager: something that looks good 'cause that seems to be in preference to actual functionality in the end , though we should never avoid functionality , of course . many of our components are gonna be standard , off the shelf , but it seemed like we were gonna require at least an advanced chip and we were still very much for the idea of using an L_C_D_ display . other things were we were hoping to use rubber , most likely gonna be double curved , etcetera . So due to your hard work , we might as well let the two designers go first , and show us the prototype . user interface: Okay , it's a project manager: Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm not sure , industrial designer: user interface: I think if we both step up project manager: but user interface: and outline our ideas . for one thing , it turned out that the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is is h i is down here for the L_E_D_ . As it turned out , the whole thing transfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the point of view of operating the function buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to a adjust the positions for the base of the joystick just a little bit for project manager: Okay . You could simply have a slightly ovoid shaped joystick that could then just be turn twisted round , so that the sticky so that the bit that sticks out a bit more is on one side or the other . But as you as you see with the with holding it in the left hand , the L_ the L_C_D_ is nowhere useful , so that would need to be articulated if we're going to retain ergonomic design . project manager: We'll go into that a bit more , user interface: this design could be done with with plastic casing . user interface: Though I would recommend around the grip part here in the middle , having maybe just a rubber grip over that which would allow for a slightly more sort of bio-morphic form , and a bit more ergonomic as well . As for the as for the single curve , well this edge and this edge , like I say it would be nice to have some curvature to it , but it's not absolutely necessary . Really the curve that's most needed is the underside so that the jo so that the joystick rests over the the edge of the hand like this . and you have the transmitter here and a wee speaker for the for the for the fi for the remote control finder . project manager: user interface: Any further comments ? industrial designer: obviously it's gonna be bulkier than how it looks , because it's gonna be flat on one side , so the L_C_D_ will be s sticking down like this , won't it ? user interface: industrial designer: And it's plastic as well , so it won't be as comfortable on the hand . with the with the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to the user's hand . user interface: One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , I though of was to have the rubber extend beyond the end of the of the rigid substructure . So it has a wee sort of tail that you just drape over your wrist so it stays in position nicely . So after we've finished doing all the ratings for each criteria , we average that and that will give us some type of confidence in our prototype . And the criteria based on Real Reactions' kinda goals and policies , marketing strategies , and also those I put together from the user requirements phase . And perhaps I could have put 'em a bit better , but you notice a few things that we've totally abandoned , which means that the product will score very badly on some of those points . So how well would you say the prototype is how well have we realised the dream of being able to stop remotes from from being lost , or to be able to find them once they are lost . , is the homing thing still the locator , is that still user interface: Yeah , that's still part of the design . project manager: but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have . marketing: Os on a scale of one to seven , how would you guys rate it for finding finding it once it's lost ? user interface: I'd say number one . user interface: I think w if it was just the sounder then th something I've found with w w with say tr trying to find a cordless phone or a m mobile , you can hear it , but you can't quite pin it dow pin down where it is . marketing: Yeah you can tell what room the mobile is user interface: Bu industrial designer: What about what if the the volume on the T_V_'s turned up massively and you just wanna turn down the volume can't find remote . project manager: just before we go through all of the steps here , well what we'll do is marketing: You wanna say something ? project manager: if we can look at the criteria you're gonna evaluate , and then we'll come back to the product evaluation if that's alright . project manager: so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you've covered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this . marketing: What do you mean cr is there anything I wanna project manager: I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ? marketing: a few . Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion . That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion . So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they really mean it they they're very big on fashion , project manager: Okay . And this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one . Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do . most of it stems from the use of the L_C_D_ which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well . the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a L_C_D_ , at which point we've removed a large part of how we were gonna interface , require more buttons , etcetera . Or what we did was that we we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure . changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the proposed costs and we're just scraping it in , we've got point two of a Euro left over there . Even then as well , there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I've used what I think's appropriate . With any luck that won't mean that we've incurred more cost than we can actually afford to . It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side , for example the possibility of having a U_S_B_ connection is definitely not viable now . We've got an advanced chip , we've got the use of the L_C_D_ . project manager: but what's something we need to decide on is how we're gonna go from here . We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be . I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design , possibly meaning that the L_C_D_ wouldn't be in this perfect place . It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person . user interface: - I suppose o one thing that could be done is h is have it circular and have it s so that the the pink actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger . marketing: Do you have any data on how much different prints cost ? can you get the entire thing printed with a design ? project manager: b b b da is you mean on the plastic , or ? marketing: . project manager: So as you can see here , for example , the battery really not very little choice in that one . plastic for some reason incurs no cost , which I've had to very much make advantage of , despite the fact that rubber's only got a value of two Euros per unit . if I've read this thing correctly , then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it's not per push button . That might make sense , because then a numeric keypad would come in at what , four point five Euros , which is an awful lot , so that could well be wrong . Even if we save point five there , it would just mean that we're most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit , which has had to be put to one side . As you can see , the use of an L_C_ display advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it's an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that wasn't quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick . marketing: Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That's quite significantly expensive . project manager: So I'm very much open to suggestions of where we go , but because we need to shed what was four Euros off of the the price of for what we really desired , this one comes in under price as you can see , but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design . The like we what about speakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ? industrial designer: . industrial designer: marketing: Is that gonna be a button , or project manager: That'll it literally would just be a button . project manager: We might have to industrial designer: That's too expensive isn't it ? project manager: It looks like almost nothing . marketing: Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: So if we're gonna go with the L_C_ display , then that's marketing: What's a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ? project manager: I believe so , yeah . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: That would probably not be in keeping with the the fashion statement and such , marketing: Technology . industrial designer: So basically the only new thing is the L_C_D_ on the remote now . marketing: And we couldn't replace the joystick , right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it , up down left and right , and that would be more expensive than a but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ? user interface: . project manager: Yeah it's just because there was no actual definition for what a joystick might be , that that's what I've labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation . industrial designer: So The L_C_D_ basically is the big selling point of project manager: If we remove the L_C_ display , we could save ourselves industrial designer: the remote . I think if we remove the the L_C_ display then there was absolutely no point to any of these meetings marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: isn't it ? user interface: and we just we could just put our branding on any other remote control . We should possibly have If we could've increased the price we could've manufactured that and we could've got something far closer to what we were hoping to . marketing: Does this does this bear in mind that it's a bit ridiculous that they're gonna charge us what is it , like this much money for three million if we're gonna buy three million components , project manager: Again , you'll have to argue with the accountants on that one . project manager: but for the purposes of this meeting , I'm we're gonna have to stick with these figures . project manager: So , I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we're gonna keep the L_C_ display 'cause it's about what really separates us , despite the cost it's gonna incur . project manager: are people maybe not happy with , but are willing to go ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case , to keep the L_C_D_ ? user interface: yeah one thing , ho how much extra would it be to to keep keep the the articulation ? project manager: It's hard to tell . I would say that you're at least gonna take double curved , user interface: This is what I'm wondering . project manager: and even then I'm not quite sure if that's incorporating the idea of articulation . user interface: no , I think I I it d that it needn't require it to be double curved . industrial designer: It can be s yeah , it can still be single curved , user interface: It's it's just it's just it's just that the case would come in t would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation . marketing: Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? 'Cause like we do we have re restrictions on software ? industrial designer: That's what we need for the joystick I think though . Yeah , marketing: Oh but there has to be user interface: and the if you look if you look closer at the at the prototype here , the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight . yeah , project manager: But the curves all o over hand , user interface: on the on the L_C_D_ although we've done it with a curve it project manager: is it ? user interface: could just as easily be done without curves . user interface: to put to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand . project manager: We wouldn't actually save a lot by reducing it anyway , so for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation . As long as so are we gonna say w we have to keep an eye on the time as well , but we're gonna say single curved design marketing: Oh , wait a minute . Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ? project manager: It could well be , user interface: no project manager: but at a cost of user interface: that's that voice response thing that we got the email about . user interface: B i basically it was saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could , you know , say hello to , and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice . marketing: We won't go with that one , did you say ? project manager: Yeah , that's voice recognition , so . So , okay yeah , battery definitely , marketing: So it looks like we're gonna get rid of the whole loca locator thing . project manager: It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros , . project manager: Maybe even slight well oh yeah , pretty much point two Euros , I'd say . we'll just have industrial designer: Are we going for a special colour at all ? project manager: It's a case of I'm slightly unsure . I'm not quite sure if they're I don't think they mean point five Euros per button . user interface: l let's say that and then we can have our special coloured case project manager: So user interface: and then we at least have make it a little harder to lose . user interface: Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room . marketing: W what's the default colour ? White or black ? project manager: Black's probably the normal colour you'd say , user interface: Or grey . project manager: I quite like that colour that you're fetching there , user interface: Yellow . industrial designer: marketing: So project manager: Just to give you an idea , you want to go maybe a bit quickly as well , I'm not sure how much time . user interface: It makes it stand out from you know it's lost in a big pile of crap , it stands out from the rest of the crap . We're down to t two buttons , is it ? user interface: Two buttons and a joystick . industrial designer: Are we going one on ? marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: I'd say we go two , 'cause like f the fanciest would be the double curved . project manager: I'd industrial designer: Wouldn't it ? marketing: w maybe you'd be a bit too project manager: Yeah . Well , we're getting rid of the locator thing project manager: Which is a shame . the menus thing is something you don't normally see on on a remote , marketing: 'Kay . marketing: And y what you're doing is moving the menu from the television to the remote control , so it's user interface: industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , w marketing: Sponginess is what they really would have wanted , apparently . marketing: project manager: because of the way that we've minimalised the number of buttons and such . industrial designer: Six ? project manager: marketing: Yeah , okay let's give it a six . user interface: Well I I I would sa I would say give a s give a selection of colours . marketing: I know , user interface: we went with yellow we went with yellow for the prototype marketing: but user interface: 'cause we had yellow . marketing: But by this I think it's more a case of fruit and veg , industrial designer: Yeah we gotta . I'd say the colour of the border there world you'd find that , that's that'd stand out . project manager: Is it inspired by clothing fashion ? marketing: But Th th they're referring to the fruit and veg thing . marketing: Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch no still , it's not shaped like a banana is user interface: That's kinda i project manager: It's kind o it user interface: it won't be when it's been project manager: probably marketing: Oh is that 'cause it's flat ? user interface: budgeted . marketing: What is what fruit or veg is flat ? user interface: I I think s I I think this isn't not particularly fruit and veggie . user interface: project manager: Well industrial designer: project manager: it's probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg , so , what , four ? marketing: Four ? Oh that's it's very ambitious , project manager: Is that being too generous ? user interface: . user interface: I'd g I'd rate I'd rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually . I m imagine we actually had some money invested in this and the amount that we invest is gonna be proportional to the marks . project manager: What would you think yourself ? marketing: I would say it's it's not at all , right ? In any way or shape or form . project manager: Well , it's kind of curved marketing: We didn't m project manager: and we can make it yellow , and that's pretty much banana like . Is that sound reasonable ? project manager: Am I do you think I'm stretching the the use of the banana ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'll go with five . marketing: project manager: right okay it's industrial designer: 'S bad design , that thing . project manager: considering the price we had to get this in , to have a positive you know , even based on the four of us being heavily biased , marketing: project manager: it was gonna be quite hard to get anything standing out I'd say possibly , based on the the cost features . marketing: Even if we were to increase this entire thing by by seven , we were to go down a grade to to four , we would have to do we didn't we weren't that kinda optimistic too optim overly optimistic . You know like we didn't we didn't add we didn't subtract a whole seven points from these things , so I think we're definitely on the good bit . user interface: marketing: Even if we gave this one seven and this one seven , that's still only three extra points over seven . Personally , I think given that the product only replaces a single remote control marketing: we did it w it was okay . user interface: that you've already got , are people really gonna shell out twenty five Euros for something that's only marginally good ? industrial designer: Well , it depends who your who's what the target people are , like you'd say maybe the fashion conscious project manager: Maybe it's been targeted industrial designer: women would be going , oh look at that , 's cool , it looks like a marketing: industrial designer: it's yellow , looks like a banana , it's cool it's gotta look good in the sitting room . industrial designer: Rather than the L_C_D_ whereas more technical like like more people in with the latest technology it's good , it's got an L_C_D_ screen 's only got two buttons and a joystick . So , which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ? project manager: Probably the people technologically . industrial designer: marketing: my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone , and she's had it for a long time , you know . So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick , that'll probably be the first one she decides not to buy , you know . marketing: She'd be like is this a remote control , I don't how do you use it , and stuff like that . So even if it is really user friendly to us , but we're used to using menus all the time . I s I suppose one thing is that b because it's technically innovative , for someone who's sort of technophobic , the fact that it simply looks unfamiliar would be daunting . marketing: I think it's totally radical to have a remote control with no no numbered buttons , industrial designer: Yeah . Does anybody want to do you have any opinions on any of them ? For example we'll work backwards I suppose . people made good use of the pen and paper ? user interface: Yeah , project manager: I would say user interface: got notes and doodles . project manager: I'm not quite sure what the advantage for us using a digital pen might be . user interface: Well I think this is a I think the digital pen's mostly for the benefit of the marketing: I think tracking . project manager: It must user interface: Though it would have been nice to be able to transfer the transfer our n our paper notes onto the computer ourselves . marketing: Well user interface: Unti until until accounts came along , project manager: Now , I think we got user interface: squish . project manager: Yeah marketing: We we're not lacking in ideas , you know it's that was not the problem . Not so much that we weren't full of ideas , but of ones that are gonna allow us to actually build the thing . project manager: If you're going to aim your a product maybe at the technological kind of sector , then you can afford to maybe jack the price up slightly from what it is . I th I think to r retaining the s the more sort of bio-morphic form in the articulation would gain more in s would gain more profit in sales than it would lose in project manager: first on the market . And would it have to be twice that ? It could be like coulda had the assembly like maybe fifteen Euro . project manager: I suppose these are all that will have to be taken up with a at a different group at I guess . project manager: So I dunno , I I think it's gone okay today , considering the information that we've had at our disposal , and such . marketing: Maybe the counts wou woulda been better if we had a list or more Yeah , to begin with . project manager: Probably would have mean we could have come up with a lot more solid design in the end , marketing: Yeah . It is very much a pity to get so far into the stage and then find out that maybe some of your ideas are just a bit too expensive . Are the costs within budget ? Well , industrial designer: project manager: they are now that we have our slightly less than capable product . project manager: We've evaluated it , and we can say that we came out with a value of three . user interface: Actually I want th one thing I would say project manager: user interface: something that could perhaps be part of the product the m product testing market research process would be to produce mock-ups of both versions and see just how much of a difference the over going over-budget m would make to sales . project manager: marketing: user interface: Wee cheapie version with the nice bio-morphic rubber . project manager: Right marketing: project manager: is there anything else that anybody would like to to add , anything they think that's not been covered , before I quickly write up a final report . We maybe aren't as happy with it as we'd like to be , but we've got something we think we can maybe stick onto the the market and sell . And of course something we have been avoiding talking about 'cause of we've no information is selling them directly to the manufacturers . project manager: we've briefly touched on it but we've no more knowledge then there's little we can say on that . So unless anybody's got anything they'd like to add , we can maybe round this up slightly earlier than we'd need to and then we can finish up the writing and such . marketing: I was actually kind of upset you know at the budget , and that we had to cut a lot of stuff <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: who's gonna give the prototype presentation ? You two guys ? Okay . The logo is is is pretty obvious to see on the on the remote control , user interface: industrial designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your company f to a level higher . And then we had just two buttons , we place them in the middle , the menu , and for the teletext project manager: Oh no , the the the mute button misses now . user interface: I thought that was th marketing: Alright , I project manager: Do y do you user interface: Oh , the mute button . project manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? industrial designer: But that marketing: Yeah . marketing: Alright , and you gotta point out which is the volume button and which is the programme button . industrial designer: Yes , user interface: Well , yeah mo mo industrial designer: we've disc user interface: Yeah , well most of them are right-handed . industrial designer: Most of the users marketing: Yeah , but you you gotta make it clear on the on user interface: Yeah well , I don't have time in anymore on the industrial designer: Yes , y there there will be a p a little a little P_ on that and a little yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: there are different ways for remote controls to do like marketing: project manager: d I call it teens and twenties . project manager: Yeah , but do we have do we need extra buttons , user interface: project manager: for example some some have to user interface: I think so . marketing: I think industrial designer: Yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be on it , th with the one and a double marketing: Yeah , I think you should add user interface: Zero ? marketing: A cross , or whatever . project manager: Yeah , but you don't you don't actually need them , user interface: May maybe here ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to press marketing: I do know so . user interface: Is it depending on television ? project manager: Nah , I don't think so really , marketing: Yeah . project manager: because you have a I know some remote controls that don't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty a number in the twenty or in the ten . industrial designer: Yes , but but a lot marketing: Yes , but no remote control nowadays are they come with the television . project manager: No , I think I really think it's n marketing: But project manager: because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and then a dash , it's the same thing as when you just push the one , marketing: Yeah . project manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that separate button you also had to apply . industrial designer: Yes , but marketing: Yeah , well but su If industrial designer: some televisions don't accept that that project manager: Yeah , because that's i it's for television . I in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it . project manager: The one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you don't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one . marketing: No , it it it works if you haven't got a special button for it , if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space . project manager: Yeah , but it's exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button . industrial designer: Yes , but some some old televisions you have to click on a special button , then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons . project manager: I think it's exact the same thing when y industrial designer: You want Yes , but some television don't support it . project manager: No , but then they would a would also support that button , because it's the same thing . user interface: But the ex project manager: Listen , with that that's that special but button you're talking about , eh ? That's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv T_V_ that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can still put another number on it . When you don't have that separate button , and you push y one , it's exactly the same thing . Do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had industrial designer: No , marketing: No , s some some televisions need the input first and and you c industrial designer: a remote can project manager: Yeah . That's the same thing as the button with the one and it marketing: No , that's not true . industrial designer: No , user interface: You you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait two seconds or something industrial designer: but marketing: project manager: And it's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one . Yeah , but I m but it's I I know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that doesn't sport these buttons , it still works . industrial designer: Yeah , it project manager: But okay , we we'll impl marketing: No , definitely not . marketing: user interface: I don't know I don't know if if it's it's necessary . project manager: Yeah but marketing: you can access that via zero , and then minus , I guess . What I said about the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true , marketing: Yeah . project manager: but I still think i it it all T_V_s in some ways support it , I don't know . I think it's more c is m maybe we don't we both don't really understand how it i how it really works , industrial designer: No , no . project manager: but I think there's more to in than wha than what you just said . project manager: I do think that m T_V_s support mur multiple kind of remote controls . M industrial designer: some N some televisions when when you want to go further than ten project manager: Th won't work wi with industrial designer: No , you have to you have to give the television two or more signals . industrial designer: When you make the technology that that it will give more signals , it could work , but Just a basic idea of of of the most most y most common and simple operations on the remote . It's here on the user interface: marketing: user interface: Well it industrial designer: user interface: yeah , there's nothing I think it's pretty basic , industrial designer: We came user interface: the the there's no fu industrial designer: Yes . user interface: there's one there's one button , marketing: No nothing really trendy about it . user interface: that's wha there's there's there's one function and that's n the one button when you want to find it . industrial designer: But maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station a bit standard for for the other products we sell , marketing: The button . So maybe we can use the docking station , for example , M_P_ three players or or marketing: Yep . industrial designer: Yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put when the when the when o the the the lowest part of it , when it's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same marketing: Yeah , of course . industrial designer: Yes , but we can make marketing: The technology and the voltage can be the same . marketing: Yeah , that's true , but industrial designer: When when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . Just have to be big enough for the biggest marketing: Yes , but I I g Shouldn't it fall then ? It isn't going to fall down ? That's a bit industrial designer: No , when you make it large enough no it it will not . marketing: yeah , I think industrial designer: But then it's a little bit marketing: No , but if if like this , I'll I'll point it out , if you got a a a base a base like this , industrial designer: But it's just an idea . If you got a base which is as big as this industrial designer: But it's flat it's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this . marketing: Yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can industrial designer: Yes , but when you make a bit of big user interface: But it's it's backwards . project manager: But user interface: marketing: you could make like a hole in it , you know , of in in the industrial designer: Yes , little holer littler , little products go deeper in it . project manager: Well let's ha let's talk about the docking station later , because maybe we have we have to consider the docking station anyway , because we have some cost issues still to come . industrial designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this remote control , because you always will pick up the remote control in the in the smallest area . industrial designer: Then your left thumb of your right thumb is near the programme button , which is the most common used function , and all the other buttons are available for your thumb . That's it ? industrial designer: Yes , on the side there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle there is a hard a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light behind it . industrial designer: Yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make light on it . user interface: lights ? industrial designer: But , it will also use batteries , marketing: Yeah , why not ? industrial designer: and do we want to marketing: Of course . industrial designer: The all the aspects of the interface buttons were project manager: Okay , but in the oh yeah , the colour , because we're gonna use one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , isn't it ? Then we're gonna do the buttons in the i are we're gonna have rubber buttons . project manager: And they're be a they'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side . And I think we should use a a darker colour for the plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff industrial designer: Yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use multiple lights , marketing: Yes . project manager: but may I dunno if that's important , but we'll talk about that later . project manager: the next p y you gonna give a presentation too ? , I have to see the agenda . marketing: We gotta do that on the right the most right-most screen , because the leftmost project manager: Evaluation criteria . Right , the remote is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so I said not ugly instead of ugly . user interface: marketing: what would you say , we we gotta give points to to all of these to evaluate that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys . How do you feel ? project manager: Yeah , I think four maybe would be appropriate , because it's Yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . project manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool . industrial designer: I think I think the the fronts will give it a more less uglier side , because you can make it in your own marketing: How do you guys feel ? The different designs . project manager: Yeah , but we d we didn't we're we're not planning to use fronts , I believe . marketing: And that's still , yeah , is is is a little personal touch , I guess . project manager: Okay , but Oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our marketing: What ? Yeah , wha wha what would you guys think ? Personally . marketing: I was I was thinking about three , so I guess project manager: I was thinking about four , so I think three is user interface: Okay , three . marketing: Antek , you agree ? user interface: Okay yeah , I'll I'll agree . user interface: I'm the I'm the usability , so marketing: I totally agree . project manager: But user interface: Well project manager: Well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something . project manager: And telete industrial designer: Also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits , project manager: Yeah , we don't know if the they're necessary . industrial designer: o they're used marketing: the the yeah , m well , you d you've got a point . project manager: Came a long way , but not we didn't not marketing: Two or three ? user interface: two . industrial designer: But you can't make a remote control without them , marketing: Two ? Antek . user interface: Because we got industrial designer: because marketing: Nay that that that's true , that's true . project manager: No , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is marketing: So we put it on a two ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah yeah , y i it's hard to say from this picture . project manager: But I do think it's more user interface: I will I will make it a three , because yeah . project manager: So so I think maybe it has to score higher on this than on the user interface: Yeah . marketing: I was planning to give it a two , where I give the not ugly project manager: A th a three . project manager: Yeah , but we you mean the rubber stuff ? marketing: Yeah , and the light . user interface: But project manager: And I don't u also it's also really not innovative , industrial designer: Lights lights are marketing: Well , I g project manager: it's more marketing: It's not seven ? project manager: No , six . industrial designer: Because we've tried to make it a little bit innovative , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but it but it project manager: it's depends on the on the maybe marketing: How ? industrial designer: With the lights it it's it's kind of future user interface: project manager: No , I think I think actually it's a seven maybe , but there's nothing innovative about it . , I agree , industrial designer: But still you can retrieve it when it's when it's gone , with the with marketing: m but user interface: Innovative in generally or just f original for marketing: I'll Yeah , you you didn't draw the docking station . project manager: N no no , marketing: Yeah , it it's I think I think with its project manager: t . user interface: A docking station is innova project manager: Yeah , the dock station , but but , I think the the docking station , it's gonna be a kind of a problem . project manager: But marketing: that that's n project manager: Well , let's leave it open for for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . project manager: No ? marketing: No , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so I think we project manager: Okay , for now it's a six or a seven , sev marketing: It's it's a six . project manager: because industrial designer: But the retrieval or the marketing: That m f project manager: Yeah , but I don't I don't know if it's very inno yeah . project manager: Yeah , v industrial designer: Yes , how would you innovate a remote control more ? project manager: Yeah , more through like function T_V_ functionalities and industrial designer: To put it on your head . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: You have must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your marketing: Yeah sure , but project manager: yeah . Yeah , it's marketing: But I d I definitely don't think it's a five , project manager: that's that's think about it la later on marketing: but project manager: and marketing: Remote control is easy to use . project manager: Remote control will be bought by marketing: It will be bought by people under the age of forty . project manager: Well industrial designer: In in and comparing with people of th of the age above ? marketing: No no no . marketing: Antek ? industrial designer: Yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly . marketing: W w industrial designer: When it succeeds , it can get a two , mu marketing: Right , the rem The remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan . marketing: Can we see the slogan ? project manager: Yeah , you can put that on the side if if we would like to . industrial designer: Yes , encrypted with project manager: Yeah , and I will I th still think it's gonna be a two or a three . Because of the slogan project manager: And marketing: Remote control's got a basic design intended for novice users . marketing: Alright , we project manager: Yeah , and that's mostly the inno marketing: yeah . So project manager: Because I I still think that the most important part of this meeting still has marketing: We did a pretty nice job until now . project manager: I'm gonna open the spreadsheet and we're gonna work this out together , because I didn't really fin I have a . project manager: we we indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . , I think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips industrial designer: it's it's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it . But industrial designer: The simple chip is e enough I I think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be marketing: I don't know project manager: Where did we find this information ? Was it marketing: I haven't got an idea on on which we need to use , really . project manager: I think it was your job in the first meet , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems . industrial designer: The the email I got said simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever device , it will cost a a bit more , like I think the advanced chip maybe . Did it point out what to use them for ? industrial designer: Bec No , the they didn't know about a retriever or a speaker in it . When we don't when we leave the retriever and such aside , what industrial designer: Then it's a simple chip . industrial designer: Yes , I I I s I marketing: Alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , I guess . project manager: Yeah , I don't know about the special colour , but I think w industrial designer: Otherwise , you get a standard plastic colour . user interface: I don't marketing: I don't know if it's very special . industrial designer: St project manager: I think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , isn't it ? user interface: Whoa , it's a little project manager: Well that's bit of a problem , industrial designer: Yes . project manager: because I re but I really don't understand that , because I can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it wouldn't be possible according to this sheet . industrial designer: No , it's only when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much . Yeah , it wouldn't marketing: The the the yellow row is the amount of project manager: Fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost I don't know . user interface: Is that one or is that nine buttons ? industrial designer: You can have project manager: And I count them like this . project manager: And plus these two , f plus the mute button , and it's will be eighteen . Y I do I don't get the point , because it's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons . user interface: Is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ? marketing: Fifty cents for one single stupid button . industrial designer: So , whe when you so then it project manager: Well , okay , well well let's make it just one . industrial designer: It's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of project manager: Here , now it's now it's already s marketing: Yeah , exactly . project manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to , user interface: project manager: because else we would really have a problem . It would be impossible to make it marketing: I can't user interface: It's way marketing: I I I couldn't understand it if it was fifty cents per per button . industrial designer: When you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . industrial designer: And then throw it marketing: Yeah , yeah , industrial designer: project manager: This is the most simple user interface: No , no no . industrial designer: But whe project manager: industrial designer: I've seen one one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with page up , page down and volume , project manager: marketing: No , really . user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: but but marketing: Yeah , but I d I wouldn't want to own that . industrial designer: but but it isn't fo Yes , it's for it's li it's just for a little user interface: Yeah , that's no option , that's no option . , I think we should mark the special form thing , because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , I guess . user interface: A special colour , why a special colour ? project manager: Because the buttons will be d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings . user interface: But wha what s what special ? project manager: I think that's the what they mean by a special colour . industrial designer: Otherwise it would be the marketing: I don't think the special form is really true . project manager: I think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that's what we were planning to do , making it industrial designer: Special form also , it says . project manager: Yeah , special material r also , marketing: Is it ? project manager: because i has rubber . project manager: 'Kay , but the problem now is that the There's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents . And and but we don't have to tell it , but what we can say of can almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: It but it then the docking station isn't relevant for this project anymore , but we can marketing: No . project manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we u need . project manager: Yeah , I think that's what what what they mean industrial designer: But for two Euros and thirty cents , we we don't get a docking station . project manager: But can we find out about this chips ? Because when we don't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip . Oh , n oh , still industrial designer: For project manager: oh , it's gonna get more expensive with . marketing: i i if you if it would cost two Euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , we're not gonna add a trip to Hawaii to it . user interface: But what what can we do project manager: Yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . user interface: But what can we do with the simple chip and what's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? project manager: Yeah that's what then what he has to find out . Maybe you can find it in your email right now , then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us . user interface: Regular chip and because we don't have special functions to use in advanced chip , for example . project manager: Yeah , bu bu but when we yeah , but when we skip when we when we don't use the do we're not gonna make the docking station , then we still yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special , marketing: I like the hand dynamo part . marketing: project manager: Yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe marketing: Wi wi without recharge project manager: It still is a special remote control cons you know , wi its form is special and material . marketing: Yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two Euros if you don't put the recharge function in it . project manager: Yeah , but for two Euros , then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip , marketing: Of course it has a shape , but i i project manager: then two Euros isn't even possible . marketing: Why should that not be possible ? project manager: Yeah , then because then we'd thirty cents left . marketing: No , for for the for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip . project manager: Yeah , but yeah , I don't know , because maybe d yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip . If we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f project manager: Yeah , and w and and we need f marketing: Yes . industrial designer: It isn't in my information , I I I've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about advanced chips or project manager: You can look at it for s presentation . industrial designer: I've got here in user interface: No no , they were mine , yeah . industrial designer: But that was my second project manager: Yeah , it was your second marketing: It's already open . industrial designer: project manager: this is n this is not this n user interface: Was it working design or components design ? marketing: Sorry . project manager: You know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires industrial designer: Ah , okay . project manager: it s only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . project manager: And what's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? industrial designer: Maybe you can say against the remote page f page up , page down . user interface: Yeah , lights , yeah , there's no marketing: Well , there're three , I guess . user interface: Can we do it wi within two two Euro ? marketing: I think we can make a docking station . project manager: Okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? But it isn't it hasn't got any innovative technology , we aren't gonna apply any innovated innovative te technology anyway , I think . I don't I don't see any possibility to do so , because it would wouldn't fit our defi design philosophy . Instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to know , so y so people wouldn't have to worry about their batteries anymore . marketing: M bu project manager: Maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it industrial designer: But but sometimes you put a project manager: Yeah , you leave the p yeah , I know , but still I they will think about that . if you u industrial designer: Kinetics aren't nowadays only used in watches and that's because you're always walking . project manager: The it's made for s people well , the they don't if it was r useless technology , they wouldn't put it as a possibility . project manager: And i it it th th the the target marketing: Or the hand dynamo dynamo project manager: the target group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking . project manager: Because I think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic power source , then it would be this one . Because it's one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot Hey that maybe that's cool that's a cool thing about it , you know . marketing: Yeah , but but if we ca project manager: I've never seen it before in a remote control . project manager: Yeah , we can als or also m we we can make one user interface: Wow , w why no li marketing: We can make a docking station for two thirty . project manager: we can still make user interface: Look at now , we got two industrial designer: Fo for a docking station . Ca can't we make a docking station of that ? marketing: We can make a docking station . project manager: Yeah , but be serious , then the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control . industrial designer: Wi with a button to user interface: Well , we we industrial designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep . project manager: Yeah , but we we don't inc we haven't looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff . industrial designer: Look at the case , project manager: Oh , because we industrial designer: the case the case of of of user interface: Yeah , then we don't have any innovation things . maybe it with the kinetic thing , I think we could do do a compromise with the kim kinetic thing . user interface: marketing: No , sta yeah industrial designer: No , then we have to sell it for thirty Euros . project manager: Yeah , I don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it like a I I I I still fee I also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: Yeah , and it is also not a good it's not you have to really do it only kinetic , you don't want it to think about batteries anymore . marketing: And I think only industrial designer: Yes , but when it's then when it marketing: Yeah , but only kinetic , then you gotta project manager: No no . industrial designer: then you have to shake it and all when it's when it's empty . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: When you use it your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it industrial designer: You asked for three d No , that's n that's not true . Becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it industrial designer: Yes , solar cells are also stated . project manager: Yeah , m but a w n a calculator also works on r on solar cells . industrial designer: Why don't we use solar cells then ? project manager: Because I think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when I move my remote control around and industrial designer: That's true . I guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating . project manager: Okay , then we d Okay , well y we don't have to do it , but what that would just have a lack of key features , you know . You have to make people buy it and We can really can do the docking thing , it's not yeah , we can do it , but it's would be a easy way out . project manager: Okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something , industrial designer: The c The case the case alone is is is project manager: because we only have a minute left or so . Okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it's this is then then our concept is ready . user interface: It w it won't tell , but industrial designer: But now marketing: No , this not gonna sell . marketing: We come back tomorrow , okay ? project manager: No no there's still there's still someth concept and something special left . project manager: we're gonna it's gonna excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and looks and feel . Yeah , and I would li I would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and I know it will work , but it's it's an They're they're not putting technologies on this , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen . industrial designer: Why not a hand dynamo then ? user interface: project manager: Okay , well we leave it like this . project manager: Okay , project e industrial designer: Is this it ? project manager: well , we were gonna what look take a look at the last sheet . I don't see why , but industrial designer: Where's the champagne ? marketing: I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest . user interface: Can we can't we do it here ? marketing: I don't think so

The team discussed the appearance of the prototype, acknowledging that it was subjective and dependent on individual taste. However, they agreed that the function allowing users to design their own front look added value and personalized touch. The team also emphasized the importance of prominently visible and relevant buttons on the remote, making it easy to use. They also incorporated a speaker into the device to address the issue of it being out of sight. However, the team found the lack of LCD display or other technology-related functions unsatisfactory. The Industrial Designer argued that adding LCD and speech recognition features would increase costs, but the Project Manager suggested considering the LCD option later. Overall, the team believed the product was intuitive and successfully incorporated their main goals. They were confident that customers would not lose the remote due to its large size, bright yellow color, and speech recognition feature. The Industrial Designer proposed an additional feature to raise the volume when the remote was far from the TV, but the team acknowledged the need to compare costs before implementing annoying alarms or other alternatives. They decided to focus the remote's functions solely on the television and removed features like teletext, LCD screen, and voice recognition. The team was satisfied with reducing the number of unused buttons and considered the user interface to be user-friendly. However, they acknowledged the need for improvement in the location function, technological innovation, material, and fashion style of the remote. The team found the case design to be moderate and acknowledged that it was not attractive or easy to hold for left-handed individuals. The Industrial Designer believed the first design lacked innovation compared to existing products, but the second design was highly innovative with scrolling buttons and automatic speech recognition. Both designs targeted specific customer groups, with the first design catering to older individuals and the second design targeting those between twenty to forty-five years old. In conclusion, the team felt they successfully embodied the company's philosophy of incorporating fashion into electronics.

What were the key points discussed by the team during the product evaluation, specifically regarding the new features and addressing customers' concerns?

lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education committee this morning. We've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning. Can I ask if Members have got any declarations of interest they'd like to make, please? No? Okay. Item 2 this morning, then, is a further session on our follow-up on our 'Mind over matter' report. I'm very pleased to welcome Carol Shillabeer, who is chief executive of Powys Teaching Health Board, and who manages the Together for Children and Young People programme. Thank you very much for attending, and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning, so if it's okay we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start and ask you if you're satisfied with the progress that's been made since the programme was established in 2015. So, the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services. Other models that are very similar have been talked about as well, and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist CAMHS. It's some years ago now since this committee did the original report, and obviously Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the Wales Audit Office had done reports in the past, and I think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action. You'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas, and so therefore had to make a prioritisation. We have provided the committee with a red, amber or green rating of where we feel that we were, and that was just before submission of the evidence. Certainly over the last nine months or so, we've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work, which we're not actually leading now as a programme, although we facilitated the workshop held in September. But that's got a real momentum, and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward, and I'm sure we will come on to that in more detail. But we know there is more community workforce in specialist CAMHS, we know we're seeing children in a shorter time frame, and we know we're accepting more referrals, so our indicators are telling us we are making progress. And you referred to the work on the whole-school approach, which is very welcome, and I recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well. But I'm sure you'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people's mental health, and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance, then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme. Are there any particular areas where you feel you haven't made enough progress that you'd like to draw the committee's attention to? carol shillabeer: This is maybe about what the programme's done, but really around the broader sense as well. I'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies. I'm assured that we've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the Matrics Cymru framework developed for children and young people. I've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee, who have owned this, and we're working together more on this area. That's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas haven't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models, but that is an area we should have made, I think, earlier progress on. There's been a general reflection from myself and the Together for Children and Young People programme board over the phase of the programme. I think we started very strongly; I think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle, if I'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel, and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months, and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist CAMHS into that whole-school approach. But, if I could just agree with your comments about the whole system, it has to be the whole system and that's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical. If I can just say, in case I don't get a chance to say this later, I was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday, because what is clear is for that part, the early help and enhanced support, this isn't just about the NHS and it's not just about education, it's about every part of the system, really, which does make it more complex. But I just wanted to say that I think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it's needed and yesterday was a positive step. In terms of local primary mental health support services, what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people, and how much of this is due to an increase in demand? carol shillabeer: Yes, thanks very much. So, it's important to say, I think, at the outset, just by way of reminder, that the target, quite rightly, changed for children and young people. The target changed some years ago for adults, so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children. So, the services were working, a couple of years ago, with significant demand and then a change in the standard. I think you're absolutely right; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children, particularly within the 28 days. And we've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health Measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce, the staff, who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health, into a bit more of the secondary element, which is why the review being undertaken by the NHS delivery unit into primary care CAMHS is so critical, because, actually, if we don't have—and I believe we don't have—enough capacity in that part of the system, then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this. So, I think we will have seen, by the evidence submission, that demand has increased, not just in Wales but in the UK, and it has increased significantly. We are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so, we have more contacts, more staff, shorter access times, so that is a good news story. We've not got it completely sustained at this stage, and therefore the focus of the delivery unit's primary care CAMHS report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention. I know, from my own experience as a constituency AM, I have families who tell me that they can't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's—. And I don't like to put it in resource terms, but it's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family, but, obviously, in terms of cost as well. Do you find that that's a common theme across Wales? carol shillabeer: Yes. So, we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that's why this is a whole system, not compartmentalised. I think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist CAMHS, but can be supported, often by telephone, at that earlier stage. My sense of where we go next, in terms of, you know, you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle', as you referred to it in your report, is to make sure we've got a fully joined-up, multi-agency team approach to that. But yesterday's announcement about youth work, the Government's commitment to primary care, CAMHS, et cetera—that's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist CAMHS. And just a final note on that, if I may—at the beginning of the programme, we had a report from Hafal called 'Making Sense' and there were 10 key asks, if you like, of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service. They said, 'Please don't medicalise it'—I'm paraphrasing now, of course—'Please don't medicalise it; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then, when we really need help, please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level.' That's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme. What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented? And also, given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year, who, in your view, is best placed to forward this work stream, and what will be the biggest challenges? It's a bit of a long question, so, break it up however you like. janet finch-saunders am: And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face? carol shillabeer: Yes, I think that's helpfully laid out in three stages. So, you're absolutely right, there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support. It brought all of the agencies together, which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list, apparently, for places. In relation to the next steps, there is a planning group reflection in early July, in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop, and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage. One is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose. The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area, and then, thirdly, to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps. I'm pretty sure we'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards. There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work. But during the summer, then, we will be developing that framework approach, and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference in September, and then a follow-up workshop in October on this matter. On your question of 'Well, what happens after the programme?' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme. That will move, most likely, to the CAMHS network, which is part of the NHS mental health network. The whole-school approach element is already settled in Government and we've got a connection in to that. The question that's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go. I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work. I don't see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach, as we move forward. So, I'm not in a position to say, 'And the legacy arrangements will be—', but I am in a position to say that I'm having those discussions with Welsh Government officials. They know my view that we've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward, and I believe that they are supportive of that. lynne neagle am: Janet, I think those two questions have been touched on, the remaining questions. We are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements, but if I could just ask on psychological therapies: you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area, and the area hasn't been directly led on by the Together for Children and Young People programme. Do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area, because, you know, we've got different compartmentalising of actions, and this is absolutely key, isn't it, really? carol shillabeer: Yes. There is some refinement to be done, I think, in making sure the connections are there. So, I think, as we move to programme end, we'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging, so to speak. I am confident—I mentioned the mental health network board that I chair—that we have those strands nailed down, but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the NHS. So, this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that. So, in the evidence that I've provided, you'll see the First 1000 days, all the adverse childhood experiences work, the Cymru Well Wales partnership, et cetera, et cetera. So, there is a bit of what I would call tidying up of the landscape to be done, and this is the ideal opportunity to do that. We've got some questions now on specialist CAMHS—if I can just ask about the impact of the specialist CAMHS framework, and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people. Without wanting to go back too far in history, I remember coming into this area back in 2014 as I was asked to establish a CAMHS network. When we spin forward five years, I can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist CAMHS. The programme has helped; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand, actually, there is a good case for consistency in the main, with local variation. If I just give you an example—you'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish. We do have inconsistency in that, but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across Wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes, which helps to prevent admissions and then, where there are admissions, helps to support people to be at home. The key thrust of this is that there is a backbone, if you like, of a consistent approach with that local variation. So, things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is. So, if I just refer to the previous question that I had, and I talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out; that's been tried in one area, been evaluated—let's see the spread of that. So, you'll know my view on internet counselling, for example; I feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end. If that works in one area, why aren't we rolling that out to other areas? So, I think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together. You've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care, but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service, especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming. Wherever you live in Wales, is that help there for you now? carol shillabeer: Well, in your work to produce the 'Mind over matter' report, I clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police. We've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist CAMHS umbrella, to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that. For example, is it that because the CIT, CAT, COT, CITE—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area, that actually it's after that that the network of support isn't as strong, and, if that is the case, what are we going to do about that? There's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults' and children's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours. So, we are taking an extra look at this, because I could not be 100 per cent confident that, throughout the 24-hour period, we've got this fully settled. I continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they've not got that solid place to go, and we're following those through. hefin david am: I think, Chair, I should have declared an interest here, as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly. We're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals, and that will increase further in the future. Can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children? carol shillabeer: Thank you. I'm not sure that anyone really knows why, if I'm honest, although there is a lot of academic research going on. What we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through. So, in the information provided, I refer to the NHS digital prevalence report in England, which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder. Now, that sounds a bit shocking when we say that, but that's in the international classification scaling, and, of that, certainly, 2.5 per cent is around autism. So, if I just take my own health board for a moment, we usually have about 75 referrals per year. If I can just give you a sense of what we've done so far and then what I think is next, I want to recognise the work of Dr Cath Norton and the steering group that's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme. We now have a community-of-practice-type environment, and we're really getting into this. One is that most referrals that come through, the clinicians tell me, are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support. Now, that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that. So, if I just take my own example of 300 in the last year, we're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families, but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be. Because we've put these teams in, because we've got the new pathway, has that opened a gate and we've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern? hefin david am: Can I just ask a question there? carol shillabeer: Yes. hefin david am: So, with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that? carol shillabeer: In a year, yes. hefin david am: Did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected? carol shillabeer: I think we anticipated a few more, and just to say that in my— hefin david am: But not on that scale. And in my own health board—I'm just referring to my own, and I'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place. We had a NICE-compliant service already in place, but we knew we needed to expand that, which we have done, but we didn't anticipate 300. So, this is happening not just across Wales, actually, but across the UK—so, this greater recognition, the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route, which is really important. What I would also say, and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward, is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what I would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so, a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support. So, we've got a lot of people who are under that threshold, but that's a lot of people who still need help and support. I'm trying to very fairly and, I hope, appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme. It's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold, because there are needs elsewhere as well, and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support. Can I just mention a few more things, as I'm on roll on neurodevelopmental? hefin david am: It's up to the Chair. carol shillabeer: Is that all right? Sorry, I know it's a very long answer. There is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private Member's Bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there's a real—. Having the broadest view would be advised by them, and I think they're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call, say, a 'perfect world' would look like. In terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements, about what the big, big things are, we are still needing to tackle. hefin david am: I personally took a very personal decision when it came to the Member's Bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice I received. Because I didn't vote for that Bill, and I'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there. But what I do have concerns about is if the increase wasn't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the Together for Children and Young People programme has a duty to review capacity, after October who's going to make sure that that capacity's reviewed on a strategic basis? carol shillabeer: So, I should have probably added in that we've got a piece of work under way at the moment—Welsh Government commissioned it—by a person called Patrick Holton, and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental. I think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term. We know that money's been put into this and it has had an important impact, but we now need to be planning for the next three, five, 10 and many years beyond that. I think there are some conversations, when I talk about the landscape being quite busy, about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue. So, it's not just about a childhood thing; as people move through, we've got to get much better at that long-term planning. We will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that. It also connects to the early help and enhanced support, because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment don't meet a threshold for a certain category, that's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation. If we can just move on now to in-patient care, and if I can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of CAMHS in-patient care, particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in Abergele and Tŷ Llidiard. Again, quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients, and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units. I think, certainly, there is some recovery in the position in north Wales, and the programme did a peer review visit to north Wales, which I think was very helpful. In terms of where the programme has been on this issue, there is some work under way, at quite an advanced stage, around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services. This was quite a tricky thing to start off when you're in a position where, actually, there've been some restrictions, to then ask the service to think about going even further, but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce, get the right environment, et cetera, et cetera—so, that piece of work, the review of the specification about what could be possible. Clearly, we work very closely with Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee as the commissioner, so we don't commission that. But, if I can just say, probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children. We haven't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams; we've got social care and we've got healthcare. I've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of Care Inspectorate Wales, for example, and we have now got, I think, a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future. It has been largely successful, the work that has taken place over recent years, but not without its key challenges. And, just briefly on the new specification that WHSSC are developing, that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours. How concerned should we be about that being a challenge, particularly in Abergele, where staffing has been a major issue? carol shillabeer: Yes. I think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented. The peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment, where the unit is, the challenge across north Wales of the workforce. These are issues well known by the health board, by the way, so it wasn't a surprise to them. But that dialogue about how do we ensure that we've got the right workforce, because that unit, potentially, could—you know, it's an isolated unit, and they’ve been risk-managing. They've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they've got available, and that's been entirely the right thing to do. With regard to the increased CAMHS posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in CAMHS posts—we know that there's likely to be labour market demand, high labour market demand, in those instances, so are the vacancy rates higher in Wales than elsewhere, given the increase in those posts to be filled? carol shillabeer: So, you're absolutely right. There's been quite a lot of investment, and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service. We had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing Peter to pay Paul, to be quite frank. So, as new services were being developed, people would move from one part of the system to the other. That has improved slightly, but we're in a national context, particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine, of a national shortage, so this is not a quick fix. So, if I can mention psychology assistants, for example, my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team, rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based. We're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: More of what? carol shillabeer: They have more skill mix in their workforce. hefin david am: Just to clarify there, what you're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the Wales system and more psychological staff, experts, in the UK picture. So, England had a programme called IAPT, which is about psychological therapies, and had therefore looked at the skill mix. We've chatted to colleagues in England, trying to learn—we're all trying to make improvements in this area, of course; it's a UK and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach. Because of their vacancies they had to skill mix, and because of the money that they had available—they didn't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we've been able to secure. And if I can just make a plea, really, around recognising the input of the third sector—so, it doesn't always have to be an NHS-employed person to work in service provision, direct front-line service provision, and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services. And that is one that we will need to cultivate, because, to be quite frank, our recruitment challenges won't be solved overnight. We've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times, but, with the training time, it's not a quick fix. hefin david am: Does the workforce profile remain different, or are they starting to—? carol shillabeer: They're starting to come together. Each year we do the NHS benchmarking, and we can see where we are compared to others, and I would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing. hefin david am: So, if you compare a child in Wales with a child in England in the last two years who's been through this, would they have had a different experience as a result, and different clinical advice as a result, or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile? carol shillabeer: That's quite a big question. Hand on heart, could I tell you I absolutely know the detail of that? No, I couldn't. The practice in this area is guided by National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance, so it's pretty much guided. When you skill mix a team, you enable the right referrals to go to the right person, so you wouldn't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well, you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs. And we've seen some of that; if I just make reference to the panel approach in Gwent that's been developed, a multi-agency panel come together, a referral comes in, it's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented. So, we can be much more flexible in relation to that, and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person, because, if we've got a resource that is highly specialist, we want them to be dealing with those children and young people. hefin david am: And one of the things you're able to do—because there's a lot about the labour market you can't control, but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development. What other things are being done in addition, and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question, but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you? carol shillabeer: Thank you for that. I think there's a huge focus on staff retention now, not just in Wales but across the UK. What are the factors that affect retention? Actually, well-being, well-being at work—and you'll know that within 'A Healthier Wales' the focus on staff engagement, staff well-being, has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services, and, then, as you rightly say, training and development and career opportunities. I think the community of practice—it's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit, doing collective reflection on service improvement, and being very clear about learning from one another. And, if you're a clinician, that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward. So, I think we have the fundamental building blocks in place, but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate. hefin david am: What about the Welsh language in the health board? carol shillabeer: Thank you very much. In your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the Welsh language, and have we got enough Welsh language practitioners where we need them. I'm pleased to say that, over the last few years, I think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of Welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their Welsh-speaking communities are. We're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient CAMHS and community intensive services, because, particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable, they would choose the language they wish to choose. So, we will be in a position to, by the end of this programme, provide that position statement on what happens next. I would also say, of course, we've got the Welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment, and we've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards. Obviously, everything you've been speaking about already, particularly about workforce development, applies to children in care as well, where there's other work also going on in terms of support. Can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects, then, with the outcomes for the children in care work programme? carol shillabeer: Thanks very much for that. So, we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group, which is good. We also have a director of social services on our programme board and, obviously, they're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children. I just made reference to, under the question on specialist CAMHS in-patients, the need to bring those services together, and that, really, is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the Together for Children and Young People programme and the constituent parts. We've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that. suzy davies am: Can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground? Because it's great that people are talking together, but how would that affect, I don't know, individual members of the workforce, or, indeed, the children we're talking about? carol shillabeer: Yes. So, if I just give an example of a unit in south Wales that is a social care unit, we've been having discussions about, 'Well, actually, shouldn't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?' So, we haven't yet got an agreed position on how we're going to do this, but the position is that something needs to be done, and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change, I believe. But what it will mean, I think, in practice, is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors, or we could be designing services that are fully integrated. Now, there may be challenges in that, but, you know, let's get them out on the table. So, in terms of this seamless health and social care system for Wales, this is one of the tests of that, I would say: can we, within the next five years, 10 years, really bring that together? That will take quite a lot of work and commitment. On the looked-after children specifically, we have picked that up, particularly following your previous report, looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system. We are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be, particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances. That's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream, and we'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme. And you're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps don't have very frequent looked-after children reviews, because, from all other perspectives, things are going fairly well. And, of course, there's the edge-of-care work that the Government have been supporting, and, certainly in my own area, under the regional partnership board, we have a Start Well programme, which is the old Children and Young People's Partnership programme, where there's a significant investment in supporting children and young people, families, on the edge of care, which does pick up fostering. We've heard, not necessarily just in the context of this report, because we've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention, and I've in fact only recently—well, just this week, actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency, and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services. The transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now, and the programme was involved in developing that guidance. But what's your assessment of the impact that it's had? Because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps, aren't we? carol shillabeer: Yes, thank you for that. You're absolutely right; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that. And, in particular, I know that the children's commissioner is very focused on transition, not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support, but children in paediatric wards, and there is a working group with Welsh Government looking at this. The children's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say, 'Well, if this works, this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere'. If I were just to give an estimate of where I think this will land, I think it will have made improvements, but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing, supporting, auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance. So, I talked about community practice and clinical audit: is this something that we make, then, a mandatory audit, each year, that we do that double check? Because it's one of those things where we know when a child is 14, 15, 16, 17, so what's stopping us? If indeed the evaluation says it's not happening everywhere, it's not happening early enough, what is stopping us? We really need to get underneath that. So, my sense will be it will show us, it will be better, but there's some further work to do, and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who haven't had the guidance fully implemented, because it can make a real difference. dawn bowden am: Yes, and it seems to me—you've just talked about having a systematic approach, and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process, isn't it? So, it shouldn't be difficult. I know we're talking about in the health service things shouldn't be difficult and they are, and one of the gripes—I had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new IT systems and so on—let's not go there at the moment. But, really, this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services. It's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult. carol shillabeer: Can I add one other dimension in, which I think is going to be quite interesting? We talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it's not just in mental health, but it's elsewhere—then you start to think, 'What if we could reduce transitions?', so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better. We are doing a piece of work with Government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be. There are probably some pros and cons, but should we be moving to a 0-25. That is moving the transition at the age of 25, but at least it's not at the eighteenth birthday. What's the argument around what adolescent, young people and young adults services are, for example? That piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: You could probably have a gradual transition, then, couldn't you? carol shillabeer: Quite potentially. I've got some people who have joined my own health board who've worked in that 0-25-type service, and we're catching up—'Tell me what was good about it? Tell me what was not so good about it? What did the young people themselves think about that?'. Because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions, there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right, then. We've got some really important questions now about legacy, because throughout the session this morning you've referred to ongoing work, really, and that is a major concern for the committee. suzy davies am: Yes, thank you, Chair, we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work's not been completed. Obviously, we've got the Welsh Government's strategy for mental health running until 2022, which is a few years longer. Can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue, perhaps even if it's just for the same length of time as Together for Mental Health, or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system? carol shillabeer: Thank you for that. Can I just say, I've given this so much thought over the time, because I think you might have asked me this question when I came previously? There are two ways to look at this. I'm absolutely sure that the issue of children's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time. We have made a lot of progress, I think, as a society, in talking about this now. I talk to my own children and say, 'What's going on in your lives at school?', and they talk about this. This is not an issue, if you like, that I believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years. So, on the one hand, I think my view last year was that, when you have a programme of work, you should have a start, a middle and end, really—otherwise it's not a programme of work, it's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism. So, my position last year was, 'This will have been running for five years—we've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist CAMHS, we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this' et cetera. My position now is I want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work, if this programme is going to close. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. suzy davies am: Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue? carol shillabeer: Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon. carol shillabeer: There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over. suzy davies am: You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction? carol shillabeer: I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward. suzy davies am: Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—? carol shillabeer: If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—? lynne neagle am: Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point? carol shillabeer: I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about. lynne neagle am: And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this? carol shillabeer: I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that. suzy davies am: Anything particularly you want in addition to that? lynne neagle am: No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Education clarifying some issues around the Welsh network of healthy schools scheme, following the task and finish group. Paper to note 3: letter from the Minister for Education on the implementation of the Diamond reforms, and that's ahead of our session on 4 July. Papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children's commissioner and the Minister for Education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education. And then paper to note 6, paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children, to the First Minister, Children's Commissioner for Wales and the Association of Directors of Social Services. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting

The progress of the in-patient care program and the challenge of the workforce were discussed by Carol Shillabeer in response to Lynne Neagle's question. Carol suggested the employment of more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team and the utilization of communities of practice to optimize resources. The use of the Welsh language was agreed upon, along with the need for an adequate number of Welsh language practitioners to cater to vulnerable individuals. Additionally, the focus was placed on the long-term collaboration between health and social care to achieve a more integrated and cohesive approach for children.

Summarize the discussion on the most important part of in-patient care and its workforce, including Carol Dhillabeer's perspective.

Item 2 this morning is the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill: Stage 2 proceedings. I'm pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, deputy director, children and families division at Welsh Government; and Emma Gammon, lawyer for Welsh Government. As I said, the purpose of the meeting is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. For these proceedings, Members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments, the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled, marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the Bill. The order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is, sections 1 to 3 and the long title. However, the order in which they're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list. Members will, therefore, need to follow the two papers, although I will advise Members when I call them whether they're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair I will move amendments in the name of the Deputy Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Deputy Minister wishes me to move all of her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Deputy Minister, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings. In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Deputy Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and, if necessary, we can adjourn. So, we will proceed, then, to group 1, which is the duty to promote public awareness. I move amendment 1 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group. My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences. I tabled these amendments in response to this committee's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report, so I have responded to that. I've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent, should the Bill be passed. I've considered amendments 1A to 1E, which have been tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, and which relate to the duty to raise awareness. We don't think, actually, that this adds anything to the Government amendment, which already mentions awareness. I understand, of course, that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive, well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change, and understand how to respond to it. But I don't think it's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups, such as visitors to Wales, on the face of the Bill—that's the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others. In relation to children, the committee will know that I'm fully committed to children’s rights, and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions. An additional due regard requirement, such as the one set out in amendment 1D, relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed. This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children’s rights at the heart of our policy making. Similarly, I don't think it's necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign, as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C. Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group, under the auspices of the Bill’s strategic implementation group, working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign. And, really, their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill. I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence; it does not create a new offence. And in this context, it doesn't make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished. As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point, safeguarding is everyone’s business, and, as now, the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child. I'm asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4, and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill. I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A: primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention. dawn bowden am: I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it's been passed? janet finch-saunders am: There's a lot of legislation. The first Assembly term when I was here— dawn bowden am: Yes, what I'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: I'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: What I'm asking for is: can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation? janet finch-saunders am: The very first term that I was an Assembly Member, we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation. Even today, as I sit here, the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation. So, therefore, I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved, and I shall speak now— dawn bowden am: With respect, Chair, that's not the question I asked. lynne neagle am: I can call you in the debate, if you'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this. janet finch-saunders am: The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications. And that's what we're talking about here, Members—the implications of removing this defence. Strikingly, the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following: 'the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation.' If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment, it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill. Additionally, the committee found that while the current Welsh Government's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt, future Governments may have less of a commitment. This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement. Furthermore, the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill quite clearly notes that, under section 2, the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment. [Interruption.] Should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: Are you taking an intervention? janet finch-saunders am: No. janet finch-saunders am: Should our amendment to be agreed, we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee's recommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children. During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales, Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports the committee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, at Stage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault. I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. In terms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven years after the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, to continue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think is genuinely a mistake. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, not professionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse. dawn bowden am: My comments, really, relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns, which I think all of us would want to see, and would appreciate in any changes in legislation. My point, really, is that we have a plethora of legislation that this Assembly has passed in the last 20 years, and I'm not aware of any legislation where, on the face of the Bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis. It seems to me that, for some reason, you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation. From what the Deputy Minister is saying—and perhaps I will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign. That awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it. It could also, I assume, Deputy Minister, be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns, and particularly in relation to visitors to Wales. Again, we have other pieces of legislation in Wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the UK. I am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into Wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they don't. And similarly, when we go to visit countries that have different legislation, we don't necessarily know what legislation we're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws. So, my key point, Chair, is just the necessity of an ongoing, endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the Bill. hefin david am: My comments follow logically from Dawn Bowden's comments, particularly in relation to amendments 1D and 1E. What you would be doing is that this Senedd, if this was on the face of the Bill, the duty on Ministers, would be putting the duty on Ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth Senedd, into the next Senedd term, and putting that duty on those newly elected Ministers after that, which, in principle, would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: Hefin, are you taking an intervention from Suzy? hefin david am: Yes, happy to. hefin david am: I'm happy to take it now, because I was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made, actually. You referred to this potentially binding Ministers in future Assemblies; at the moment, we've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this Act into the Assembly after next. I'm wondering if you're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on. hefin david am: Well, when we get to that amendment, I'll make comments if I feel it necessary. But at this point in time, we're talking about amendments 1D and 1E, and particularly in relation to 1D and 1E it just isn't necessary, given the fact that—I won't call it a concession, because I think you made a reasonable point about the Minister making a statement at Stage 3, and I think Dawn Bowden actually supported that as well. And that's my key point, really, which is why I wouldn't vote for those two amendments. I don't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign, as is outlined in 1A. I agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change, and therefore I'm very glad to see that the Government has brought forward amendment 1, and I do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change. In terms of amendment 1B, I do have sympathy with what is being said here, but I believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the Government, through various programmes, and it should not be an addition on the face of this Bill, which deals with a small change to the common law. And then, on 1D also, if I may—I don't agree with this either. Again, I believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children, but that should happen through the children's rights convention, as part of a broader programme to promote children's rights. julie morgan am: Thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today. I just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the Bill, and I absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the Bill. I'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee's interest and the work that you've done in this area of work. We're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from Royal Assent, and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign. Would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand? A two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: Six-year. suzy davies am: Oh, so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: Yes. Amendment 1B, about support available to parents and how to access it—again, this level of detail is not required on the face of the Bill. I just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group, who are working on all aspects of this Bill, many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee. I think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting, but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development, and they're not required on the face of the Bill. So, I'm not putting them down, I'm just saying that we don't need them to be there on the face of the Bill. And then amendment 1C—the information about how to raise concerns—I do repeat that safeguarding is everybody's business, and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed. Amendment 1D—Ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now, children's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making, and the entire Bill is about protecting the rights of children. Again, in terms of visitors, the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the Bill. And then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised, revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of Stage 3. The issue that was raised about the Scottish Bill, that it refers to 'understanding'—now, the Scottish Bill was not a Government Bill, it was a private Member's Bill, and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding'; 'awareness' is sufficient. So, basically, I think that the points made have been very useful, but I urge committee members to accept my amendments, but to reject those proposed by Janet Finch-Saunders, as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, I'll take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 1B. All those against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, as there's an objection, I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1? julie morgan am: I do. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection, so we'll take a vote by show of hands. We'll move on now then to group 2, which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation. I move amendment 2 in the Deputy Minister's name, and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments, and the other amendments in this group. The amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the Bill, and I believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee, so you strongly influenced this amendment. It's clear from Members' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at Stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment. I've already provided assurance that I agree with the importance placed on such a review, both in the explanatory memorandum and during Stage 1 scrutiny. I also made a commitment to bring forward a Government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the Bill. As I said in my responses to the Stage 1 committee report, and as set out in the explanatory memorandum, the post-implementation review of this Bill will not be a single piece of work, but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. Firstly, we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys, which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment. Secondly, through a dedicated task and finish group, we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the Bill and to consider the possible impact on services. Turning to amendment 2C, this amendment would require Welsh Ministers to prepare and lay before the Assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced. This amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what I think is a priority for the implementation of this Bill: that is, given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders. I also think this amendment is not required because, as I've already stated, we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising. In June, I shared the findings of a representative survey, which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation. I speak to amendments 2C, excluding 2D, to 2K, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment. Again, I must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment. Amendments 2E to 2K outline what we would expect to be within this report, and we would wish to see a commitment from the Deputy Minister to ensure the National Assembly for Wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report. Amendment 2C requests that the Welsh Government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the Assembly before section 1 commences. As I have outlined under my amendments in group 1, the understanding of the public about the implications of the Bill cannot be sidelined. Although the Deputy Minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign, we, as the National Assembly for Wales, must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins. As I noted under amendments 1B to 1E, there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the Bill's effect. I'm sure that the Deputy Minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the Bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness. It is, therefore, important for the Assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people. As will also be elaborated under amendment 2D, it is extremely important that we, as the Parliament of Wales, are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign's impact. Before we implement what will be a criminal offence, it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign's effects before section 1 commences. Deputy Minister, first of all, can I just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2B? I'll come to that a little bit later, if I may. I just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you'll be rejecting amendment 2C here. I actually don't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all. It's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that's in the draft Bill at the moment. So, failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well, rather than anything intrinsic in the Bill, so I'm not sure I can accept your argument on that. And, on 2D—very pleased to hear that you'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying' rather than 'publishing' at Stage 3, but, in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature, perhaps I could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage, because it doesn't make any difference. Your amendment is going to pass, and this amendment to it would be—I think the gesture there would be very much appreciated. I'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2A and 2B, but I want to begin, again, by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the Bill on the issue of reporting, because I know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity; you mentioned it earlier. But this is not a newid bychan, I'm afraid, Siân; the terms and the effect of this Bill are quite extensive, and it does need the reassurances, if you like, necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this Bill on families where parents' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute. I know that you're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the Bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment, and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear. But, if this were me bringing forward this Bill, I think I'd want to show the world that I was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do. Amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the Bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed. If you're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change, and I think that is what you're expecting—you know, showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment, reducing the number of, and indeed the likelihood of, parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—I really would have thought you'd want people to know sooner, or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that. Waiting five years, I think, will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years, and this is why I'm grateful to you for your offer, because there may be a way where we can overcome that. If the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so, basically, in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that's great, but there's a possibility it's going to reverse. For myself, I think one year would probably be enough, but I think three years is a reasonable compromise, as opposed to five years, for a reporting period. I can't see the reason for quite that length of time—I know you've talked about New Zealand—but neither can the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. When they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report, they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny. That's something I think we perhaps need to bear in mind now, as we enter this period of the consolidation of law. Five/seven years is really something of an outlier, and while that might have been appropriate, perhaps, in New Zealand, I don't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in Wales, and, of course, there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years, and I note that you haven't drawn on them in order to support your argument. So, can I urge Members and the Minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments? I don't think it's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point, Hefin—that we not only won't hear in this Assembly, we won't hear in the next Assembly, about the formal evaluation of this, unless I follow— hefin david am: I won't intervene; I'll speak. suzy davies am: Is that okay? hefin david am: Yes, I'll make the point. lynne neagle am: Okay, I've got— suzy davies am: Yes, I'll take the intervention. lynne neagle am: No, he doesn't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: I won't do an intervention; I'll speak. suzy davies am: Oh, apologies— hefin david am: Just to say— suzy davies am: I'll wait. The point I was making about 1D and 1E is they close down choices to Ministers in future Assemblies. An evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future Parliaments more options with regard to this Bill, so I think it's entirely consistent. I don't think the Minister, in putting in amendment 2, was trying to undermine my argument. Actually, I think she's being constructive by doing that, and I think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that's quite helpful, and its consequence will be to open up choices to future Parliaments, whereas my objection to 1D and 1E is they close those down. suzy davies am: Okay, well, as I say, I think, actually, the Deputy Minister's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this. Because I'm not 100 per cent sure I accept your argument, either, because it closes it down for the interim period if we don't move on with the Deputy Minister's suggestion—which I'll talk about now, actually. But I need some clarity on what you would allow this Assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report. Because you've been very clear that you don't want to accept the things that Janet Finch-Saunders has been talking about in a final report, and yet I can tell you we want to hear about these things. So, if you're in a position where you can give a commitment at Stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report, but that you will consult with, perhaps, this committee—I'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report, what we would want to see tested, then I'll be minded not to move amendment 2B. If you can't give me that reassurance, then I'm going to move it anyway and we'll return to it at Stage 3, if you don't mind. Just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable, and I do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to. Again, at Stage 3, I'm happy if you want to make three months six months, or something like that, but 'as soon as practicable' is open ended, and what you think is practicable may be very different from what I or my constituents think is practicable. So, I don't want to stick with what is practicable; I would like you to put a date on this. If it's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties, I think that's fairly reasonable as well, but I'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended. sian gwenllian am: Yes, I welcome adding to the Bill through amendment 2, and what you've said today also, that you're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the Bill, and to lay a report before the Assembly. I am interested in what Suzy is saying, and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods, and not say 'when it will be practicable'. Therefore, I would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the Minister regarding these issues. julie morgan am: Well, just to start off on that point, I think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss, I think I'm very happy to accept that. So, I'm happy to discuss that with you, and with the committee, before the third Stage. Well, just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised, on the issue of training now, I think Janet raised a number of points about training, and we do have an operations, procedures, processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work, and they are considering guidance and training requirements. There are many professional bodies represented on that group, many of whom I think have given evidence here today, and they've really got a chance to have their say. The officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at Stage 3, so there will be more information about training there. Generally, I think that all the contributions are very helpful, and I know they're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation. I can't support amendments 2A, 2C, and amendments 2E to 2K, because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the Bill already, or they're covered by the Government amendments that I've moved. But I do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough, multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services. Now, tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points, so there's no question there of having to wait; we'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes. Of course, I appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments, but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on? So, even if this is not a statutory commitment, what exactly from our list, our wish list here, would you be prepared to include in your evaluation? julie morgan am: Well, I would actually have thought all of them. Obviously, this is not a statutory thing I'm saying, but— suzy davies am: No, no, and this is not a— julie morgan am: Yes, but considering those points you've put forward, I think all of them have got a great deal of relevance. We will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you've suggested and, in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group, which is about developing methods to collect data, we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you've made on those issues. I'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—I think one of yours and it was one of Janet's, wasn't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage. Because I am sympathetic to your views on these matters, and I think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well. In line with the recommendations of the Finance Committee, further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at Stage 3. So, I think at this point I would ask that Members reject the non-Government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5, which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the Bill, with the exception, obviously, of those two amendments, which I'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote by show of hands. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 2A? suzy davies am: I move amendment 2A, yes. lynne neagle am: Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2E? janet finch-saunders am: I move. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2F? All those against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, can I see all those in favour of amendment 2G? All those against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2H? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Can I see all those in favour of 2J? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I'll therefore take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 2K? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 2B? suzy davies am: In view of the Deputy Minister's reassurances, I won't move this amendment today, but obviously I reserve the right to bring something back if we can't reach consensus. lynne neagle am: Does any other Member wish to move amendment 2B? Okay, no. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2? julie morgan am: I do. I move amendment 3 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group. Members will note that I've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the Bill, which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment. So, we're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here, basically. As a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a Welsh Minister to make an Order for commencement, the power to make transitory, transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the Bill coming into force would also be removed. So, I'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the Bill; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the Bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it, and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after Royal Assent. In fact, removing the power for the Welsh Ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by Order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended. These amendments are technical in nature and while I acknowledge that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied, their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied. The absence of an Assembly procedure does not mean that Ministers' decisions in relation to transitional powers cannot be scrutinised by the Assembly. This was a point made to CLAC and, as I say, their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power. Well perhaps, Deputy Minister, I can begin by saying that one person's technical issue is another person's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny. But I thank you for noting the Assembly's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this Bill—this time by CLAC, as you say. Moving this—and I'm glad actually that amendment 8, I think it was, has removed an Order provision and we're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here. I have to say that amendment 3A is something of a probing amendment, and I'll explain why now. Your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1, but it's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it's not a separate commencement power. And, actually, I've been listening to the rest of this debate, and thinking that, if you're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report, the chances are you're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas, I think. And I'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory, transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this Bill. I'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented, bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original, very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft. As I say, in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 I tabled this, in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the Assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1, when it comes into effect, onto the floor of the Assembly. Because while I completely accept that you've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on, it's still possible to do that without procedure, and so I have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure. Amendment 3A is a holding position, which we will return to you in Stage 3, because I think, again, this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you're looking for, because I think you probably need something that's beyond transitional, transitory and saving. lynne neagle am: Are there any other Members who wish to speak on this group? No. We don't actually think it's necessary to have wider powers, but we will keep this under review and at Stage 3, I think that—. When I was looking at this, I was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage, but I can understand that there may be links to other Bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers. So, basically, I don't think it is necessary to have wider powers, but I can assure you that we'll keep that in review coming up to Stage 3. suzy davies am: Can I just ask a question on the back of that? lynne neagle am: Will you take a brief intervention at the end, Minister? suzy davies am: Will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop? julie morgan am: I was going to end there, yes. suzy davies am: Right, okay, well, just before your full stop, would you just confirm that you're happy for us to discuss this before Stage 3? julie morgan am: Yes, very happy. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 3A? suzy davies am: I'll move it, yes. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, I'll take a vote by show of hands. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3? julie morgan am: I do. The committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. Can I welcome Members back? We will move on to group 4, which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding. As I outlined under amendments 2I and 2J, there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment. Now, it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic. As I have mentioned previously, these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services. Furthermore, the Welsh Local Government Association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are, those costs are met, because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. Now, during evidence, the Deputy Minister, when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated: 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate.' But you couldn't commit to a broad figure, instead telling us that: 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us.' And: 'We have to measure it as we go along.' Given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes, we only think it is fair for the Welsh Government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this Bill. Now, while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards, I note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by Welsh Government. Anticipating the Deputy Minister's response that few under this category, if any at all, would be affected by the Bill, we are pursuing a principle here, and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the Deputy Minister. The Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013: last year, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee found that the Wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of England's and one sixth of Holland's. Furthermore, the committee highlighted that the passing of the Act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes, but were constrained by the funding made available to them. Now, my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel Act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel Act to become a meaningful piece of legislation, and the same goes with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. This month, the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the Act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding. Outside of the Welsh Government's regional grant that cannot be spent on projects, councils often contribute through officer time or facilities, but resources and capacity to support those PSBs remain a key risk, as partners don't have the capacity to take on more. The reason that I wanted these amendments placed in here is I genuinely do not believe that you've even envisioned what, or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations, and certainly our local authorities and health boards, the impact this Bill is going to have. I can understand that the Member is concerned about the impact of this Bill on public services, but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the Bill that we've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this Bill before introduction. And as far as we're aware, no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation, and also comprehensively prepared for implementation. We've explored the published data, which is available from other countries, on the impact of measures they've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children. We've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in Ireland, New Zealand and Malta, who have legal systems similar to our own. And stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs, and I think we should trust their judgment on this. In fact, as this committee notes in its Stage 1 report, those delivering services on the front line have said, without exception, that 'this Bill will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales because it will make the law clear.' Sally Jenkins of the Association of Directors of Social Services said to this committee: 'In terms of thresholds for children’s services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. Jane Randall, chair of the National Independent Safeguarding Board Wales, said: 'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services, I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.' And Dr Rowena Christmas, Royal College of General Practitioners, said: 'I can't see it's going to lengthen consultations. I can't see that it's going to increase the number of consultations, and I don't think it's going to increase the number of referrals I make to the health visitor or to social services, because if I was worried, I'd make those referrals now regardless of the Bill.' I just want to say again that the Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault, which has formed part of the common law of England and Wales for a very long time. And social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted, including from health and education, so it's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them. As I've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments, we're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services, and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation. Welsh Government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications. I can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued, and I've asked officials to prepare a revised RIA, as recommended at Stage 2, and I expect to share an updated RIA with you in advance of Stage 3. Serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the Bill, but I think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given, particularly to this committee, from the professionals at the front line. What the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within Government, and it's not clear why, in the context of the evidence heard at Stage I, such provisions are necessary. I'm sure that Members will agree that future Governments need to be able to consider, within the context of the budget-setting process, what the priorities are, and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time, for example taking into account any issues that there are—UK Government actions, what happens in relation to Brexit, or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or Welsh society. Furthermore, as is the case now, the National Assembly for Wales scrutinises the Welsh Government budget annually, so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies, should it consider that this is required. I do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding, so I urge Members to reject these amendments, which I believe are unnecessary. janet finch-saunders am: Chair, could I ask a question? lynne neagle am: You can reply to the debate now, Janet, yes. When we were taking evidence, at an earlier stage, I noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across Wales. What discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead, the cabinet members, or, indeed, the head of service? I can speak from my own experiences, when going around my constituency, but when I've spoken to some of the family support groups, and, indeed, the departments themselves, they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision. They're already overstretched, and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden. So, how much have you engaged with them? julie morgan am: There's been extensive engagement. We've had meetings with the Association of Directors of Social Services, and they're represented on all our groups, and we're working very closely with them, because, of course, they represent all the local authorities. But I have to say, when I've been going round and meeting lots of different groups, the first thing they say is, 'I'm so glad that you're doing this', and they haven't mentioned any financial implications. But, obviously, we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up. I was hoping to see some commitment to—this Bill was going to go through, and it's one that could be implemented fully, because sufficient resources were there. Janet, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12? janet finch-saunders am: I move. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4? julie morgan am: Yes. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5? julie morgan am: Yes. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6? julie morgan am: Yes. lynne neagle am: I move amendment 6, then, in the name of the Deputy Minister. And I call Suzy Davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group. Amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing, but it's the lead amendment in the group, so I'll move it to begin the debate. You've said repeatedly, and I believe you, that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children. You could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement, but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law, where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted, but liability to prosecution, not just liability to civil sanctions. I'm sure you'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted, but that decision does not and cannot lie with you. You, like us, have no agency in this, because the powers and the duties of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service sit outside our competence. You cannot and we cannot, by law or otherwise, instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents. You've acknowledged to this committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee that revised CPS charging guidance and any other guidance on, for example, out-of-court disposals, are key to delivering your policy objectives. You'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group, is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like. So, you're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force, the frequency of the offence, any prior conviction, any prior reporting, not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced, or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest, let alone charging. And you argue that the rights of the child are what matter, and I agree with you here, but everybody, adult or child, has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure, and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage. I anticipate that that's unlikely, and I hope I'm wrong, but that's why Janet and I have tabled amendments 10 and 15, which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that CPS guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed. That reflects our recommendation 4, this committee's recommendation, as well as CLAC's recommendation 1. It gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment, even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded. I have to say, Minister, I think these points are so serious that I would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking Royal Assent for this Bill until the Assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and CPS. I'd have sought a Report Stage, if I could, so that we could consider that evidence. But I'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled, 10 and 15, so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately cannot control once this Bill has passed. Now, I know you've got the numbers to pass this Bill, whether you accept amendments or not, but I just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a Bill that changes a person's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that, and you're inviting this Assembly to fall into the same trap. Janet, do you want to speak? janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. As was clear during the committee's evidence sessions, present Welsh Government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage. For example, the capacity and reach of the Healthy Child Wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising, with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved, with 53.2 per cent of children in Wales reported as being contacted. Furthermore, existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas, such as Flying Start, and even the children's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children. Now, the Deputy Minister mentioned the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents. However, the Deputy Minister was challenged on this fact, that this is an online campaign only, and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake. Therefore, the Deputy Minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs. I've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during Stage 1. As a result, I have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law. My amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the Bill by Order of the Welsh Ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after Royal Assent. Up to then, we'd always said 'up to two years'—well, we're giving two years. This certainty will allow key partners, including the police, social services and the Crown Prosecution Service, to plan for changes to guidance, training and data-collection systems more effectively. My amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision, which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6, and we discussed those in the previous group. I've listened to the arguments put forward by Suzy Davies and Janet Finch-Saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled. These amendments are all about making the commencement of the Bill conditional on something else happening, whether it's waiting for the revision of Crown Prosecution Service guidance, or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system, or for the provision of parenting support services. As I set out in my letter of response to the Stage 1 report from the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, we've got good working relations with the CPS through the strategic implementation group, and we work very closely with them. But the CPS are an independent body, as Suzy Davies has said in her contribution, not answerable to Welsh Ministers or this legislature, and it's not appropriate for a Minister or the National Assembly to seek to influence the CPS guidelines. And, in fact, I think that these amendments—Suzy's amendments in particular—wouldn't just seek to influence the CPS, but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in Wales. I think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship, very close working relationship. And I think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence, or not, Assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty, I think, if we did go down that track, because I think this is very important Welsh legislation, which does have broad support across the Assembly. And I don't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation. I think the CPS is entirely independent of Government, and must be entirely independent of Government, and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance. In addition, you suggest we allow the UK Government to have a say in when Welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the Assembly. If these amendments passed, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to judge when section 1 could be commenced. This contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for, and raises huge uncertainty, which potentially jeopardises the Bill. And I want to assure you again, not only do we have good working relations with the CPS, but also very good working relationships with the police, who are, of course, the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues. My amendment to provide a two-year period between Royal Assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force. And then, when it comes to parenting support, the committee knows that I've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support, and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue. I have already said I will expand the age range of the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign, and I think—. For example, the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial, and that is a service that is for every child. And the expert group is considering what it'll recommend for the future, and it needs the time to be able to do that, to support the Bill as well as to support parenting more widely. So, as I said, I think these are important points that you have raised, but I don't think they are appropriate. So, I therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10, nor 13, 14 and 15. suzy davies am: Thank you very much, and thank you very much, Deputy Minister, as well. I'm disappointed that you haven't seen what's behind Janet Finch-Saunders's final amendment there, actually. Maybe it's something we'll raise again with you at Stage 3, or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then. But I want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that I've raised and your assertion that we're giving, or attempting to give, power to the CPS here. And this is why I go back to where my contribution to this started, and it's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or, sorry, to try and protect children's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence. This Bill—and, actually, you've said a couple of times in your response today that it's important that it's commenced on a certain date. My argument is: it shouldn't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence. And, while I claim no mischief on the part of the CPS or the police—obviously I don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the CPS, should they wish to do it, or indeed the police with their own guidelines, putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence. And, because of that, I ask you to consider, or balance, actually, two important things here: one is the rights of the child, obviously at the forefront of your argument on this, which I would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion; and, actually, the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you cannot allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing. The relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family, but that's something you ought to protect in what you're trying to do here, and by leaving it open, as you say, to completely different—sorry, undevolved, two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me. I know this isn't going to stop your Bill going forward, but I really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at Stage 3, because leaving, effectively, the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control, despite your great relationship with them, should worry us all as a legislature. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9? suzy davies am: Oh, because of the voting order—. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7? julie morgan am: I do. lynne neagle am: I move amendment 7 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8? julie morgan am: I do. Well, that has brought us to the end of our amendments, so can I thank the Deputy Minister and her officials for their attendance? As usual, you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy. Standing Orders make provision for the Deputy Minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of the amendments agreed today. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, following our meeting on 2 October. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services updating the committee on the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy. And paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services regarding early childhood education and care, following the session that we held on 2 October. Item 4, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting

Janet Finch-Saunders raised concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs in the regulatory impact assessment. She believed that the Deputy Minister had not fully considered the financial burden on organizations, local authorities, and health boards. The Deputy Minister defended their thorough analysis of the potential impacts of the Bill and argued that they did not anticipate a significant increase in funding demands. Ultimately, amendments 11 and 12 were rejected, while amendments 4 and 5 were approved. The Deputy Minister emphasized that the Bill was not introducing entirely new costly activities, as it was removing a defense to an offense that had long been part of the common law. She urged members to reject the unnecessary amendments.

Summarize the discussions, opinions, and response regarding amendments 11 and 12, which pertain to the duty of ensuring sufficient funding.

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 12th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Members who have already participated in a virtual meeting of the special committee may actually not notice any change, except for the fact that some members are also participating from the floor of the House. An additional rubric, that of statements by members, was also added to the proceedings of the committee. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up in the chamber on either side of the Speakers chair. Sound amplification for virtual interventions will be available, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor sound or interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. For those of you joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by videoconference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their microphone and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificates off at the table once the petitions are presented. Chair, what an honour to be the first voice coming to you from the screens on either side of the Speaker of the House. I speak to you from SaanichGulf Islands on the traditional territory of the WSNEC people. I'm presenting a petition, number 431-00215, and it has been certified. The petitioners call on this House to take note of the fact that Canada is the only country with a universal health care system that does not include the provision of necessary prescription medications. They note that the system across Canada is a patchwork that leaves three million Canadians unprepared and uninsured to be able to purchase necessary medications. They call on the House assembled to put in place a system of universal national pharmacare, bringing down the cost of drugs through bulk purchasing. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr. This Senate public bill, been put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan in the Senate, would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad to receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It also has a mechanism by which somebody could be deemed inadmissible to Canada for being involved in the horrible practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill has been before various Parliaments for over 10 years, and petitioners are hopeful that this Parliament will be the one that finally takes action to address forced organ harvesting and trafficking. The second petition is put forward by folks who are concerned about Bill C-7, particularly the efforts by the government through Bill C-7 to remove vital safeguards that are currently associated with Canada's euthanasia regime. Petitioners are not happy about the fact that the government is trying to eliminate the 10-day reflection period and remove other safeguards that only four short years ago the government thought were essential for the euthanasia and assisted suicide system that they were putting in place. The petitioners call on the government to address that, and they are not supportive of these particular efforts to remove vital safeguards from that regime. the chair: Is anyone else presenting petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to statements by members. darrell samson (sackvilleprestonchezzetcook, lib.): Good afternoon, everyone. This spring has been a difficult one for Nova Scotia and the communities of SackvillePrestonChezzetcook. While residents have banded together to tackle the challenges presented by COVID-19, we have also had to mourn the passing of three remarkable local women: RCMP Constable Heidi Stevenson, well known by many in Cole Harbour and the surrounding areas; our own Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, who was based out of 12 Wing Shearwater; and Captain Jenn Casey of the Canadian Forces Snowbirds. These three brave women, who served with honour on land, at sea and in the air, represent the absolute best of us. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Canada needs a prime minister who will create jobs and opportunity, but instead we have a prime minister who is piling up crippling national debt. After five years with this debt, Prime Minister, Canada's national debt is set to hit $1 trillion, with almost nothing to show for it. Canadian workers need and deserve a prime minister who supports our energy sector and gets our natural resources and agriculture products to market, who supports small business and will make our tax system encourage job creation and growth, and who will bring advanced manufacturing jobs to Canada and keep the automotive industry growing. Most importantly, we need a Conservative prime minister who will get the government finances under control after the massive debt left by this prime minister. Since the COVID-19 outbreak, we've seen a disproportionate number of deaths in long-term care homes. I'm thankful for the Canadian Armed Forces who were deployed to the Altamont care home in my riding and four other facilities across the GTA. They include residents being given expired or improper doses of medication; not being cleaned or changed for a prolonged period of time; being forcibly fed, causing choking; being bed-bound for weeks; receiving inadequate nutrition, and much more. Chair, I call upon Premier Ford to place these five homes under a mandatory management order and to appoint a third party manager to address and rectify these violations. I also call upon the Premier to undertake an independent public inquiry into the tragedy we face in long-term care facilities across Ontario. Chair, we need to work with the provinces and territories to set national standards of care for the most vulnerable in our society. I hesitate to interrupt colleagues, but I'm concerned about the petition practice, which, as I understand it, is to summarize a petition but not make a speech. the chair: I will remind honourable members that when a petition is presented, we're expected to give a prcis and make it as concise as possible. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I would like to recognize the resilience of Quebeckers concerned for their jobs or their businesses during the COVID-19 crisis. That is why the Bloc Qubcois is demanding that the government present an economic update, and that it do so before June17. In closing, I would like to remind the government that one group is not really contributing to the public purse at the moment. I am talking about the tech giants, the GAFAM group, that have never before been used to the extent that they are now, and that are still not paying a cent in tax in Canada. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Peel region police, paramedic and firefighting services for keeping Bramptonians safe. Organizations such as the Khalsa Aid Society, the Interfaith Council of Peel, the Brampton YMCA, the Prayer Stone Peoples Church, Unity in the Community, Ste. Louise Outreach Centre, Knights Table, the Yogi Divine Society, Vraj Community Service, Regeneration Brampton and many more have made our community stronger during this difficult time. Like many Canadians, I was shocked by this report from the long-term care centres, including one in my riding. Chair, Canada's oil and gas sector is in crisis, made worse by five years of bad policies, red tape and barriers to pipelines. Active rigs dropped by 92% and tens of thousands of oil and gas workers lost their jobs, adding to the 200,000 since 2015. Energy is Canada's biggest investor, and exporting could lead the recovery if there are actions, not just words. On March 25, the finance minister promised help in hours or days, not weeks, but he's letting Canadians down. Sixty-three days later, small oil and gas companies still can't apply for BDC loans, and last week's large employer loan terms are predatory, with interest rates escalating to 14% by year five. The Liberals' death-by-delay tactics are doing exactly what foreign activists in other countries want: to shut down Canada's oil. lyne bessette (bromemissisquoi, lib.): Mr.Chair, in times of crisis, we stick together. In the last weeks, I have been calling volunteer action centres in my constituency so that they can tell me their news. I would like to take the time that I have to highlight the work that community organizations are doing tirelessly in my constituency. The crisis has made us realize the extent to which food banks and meals-on-wheels can not only relieve hunger, but also relieve thousands of shut-in seniors of their loneliness. Let me also highlight the devotion of the volunteers giving generously of their time, particularly the initiative of Mabel Hastings in the volunteer aid centre in Mansonville. Like me, she sends out a daily newsletter to keep the public informed about the many resources available for their support. COVID-19 is bringing out the best in our community and I am certain that, together, we will get through it. Chair, during the COVID-19 pandemic I have been inspired by the courageous work of so many essential workers. I want to thank everyone on the front lines for keeping us safe, keeping us fed and keeping our communities functioning. I want to make special note of one particular essential health care worker, a woman who is a quarantine manager with the Public Health Agency of Canada. Suchi, I love you, I am very proud of you and I thank you for all of the sacrifices you are making. I want to highlight another woman from my riding of ParkdaleHigh Park, Rachelle LeBlanc. When the pandemic broke, she saw the need for protective barriers for small shops in Parkdale, so she set about collecting donations. Rachelle's team has now delivered 25 free COVID protective shields to small shopkeepers in Parkdale, and the team is on track to building 100 more. It's the compassion of Canadians like Rachelle that gives meaning to the phrase we are all in this together. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): Mr.Chair, the school year has been shattered and our graduating classes must be proud of what they have achieved amid the COVID-19 pandemic. The current government has the obligation to promote the values that will lead you to become involved in your communities. I implore this government, which is unaware of the damage it is causing, to immediately announce all the positions that have already been approved under the Canada summer jobs program. Let us have confidence in our organizations, our companies, and let us support our youth, a rich resource that we must equip and motivate. I congratulate all the young graduates in the beautiful constituency of PortneufJacques-Cartier. greg fergus (hullaylmer, lib.): Mr.Chair, this pandemic lets us see what Canadians are made of. This coming Saturday, May30, more than 2,000Christians of all denominations are coming together virtually for prayer and for action. This Saturday, in more than 2,000 churches and homes, thousands of faith-filled Canadians are gathering to pray and act on those prayers as part of Stand United Canada. Then they are going to deliver much-needed support to at-risk Canadians who live in disadvantaged areas. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): The best way to safeguard the truth is to allow people to speak freely, but from the very beginning of this pandemic, the Liberals have silenced dissent. Early on, they propagated the notion that human-to-human transmission wasn't possible. It is undeniable that the Liberal government has put Canadians in danger by silencing alternative points of view and has spread misinformation. They are determining what is true and what is not, what is right and what is wrong, what is in and what is out. I call upon the government to restore the personal liberties that are granted under our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They provide employment and economic stability and are always the first to support community functions and activities, but small businesses have been particularly hard hit due to COVID-19. They have shut their doors temporarily, and now many worry they'll never be able to open their doors again. With the season cancellations at the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music, businesses in the tourism, hospitality, accommodation and retail sectors in PerthWellington are struggling. Every day, I talk to small business owners who can't access the Canada emergency business account, and others who find the convoluted commercial rent assistance program to be out of reach. Chair, the government needs to go back, fix these programs and ensure that support goes to the small businesses that need it. We can go backwards to so-called business as usual, with horrific conditions in long-term care homes, widespread inequality and no real action on climate change, or we can build for better. In Victoria, people in the community, organizations and municipal leaders have been calling for a new way forward. Organizations like Greater Victoria Acting Together; Common Vision, Common Action; and Kairos Victoria are exploring ideas for a sustainable and just recovery. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, in this time of pandemic, it is with heartfelt emotion that I want to highlight the excellent work of all the guardian angels at the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest. From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the entire staff, as well as the retirees who have come back to provide their assistance. I admire the managers, at all levels and in all services, working tirelessly so that their teams can answer the call in this difficult situation. My fellow managers and the management teams of the Support Program for the Autonomy of Seniors, both in home support and in residential care, you have my heartfelt congratulations for the herculean work you have done. My thoughts go particularly to Lyne Ricard and Vronique Proulx, managers working diligently with their teams of professionals to support the seniors living in intermediate resources, as we call them. I also warmly recognize the director of nursing services, Chantal Careau, who is facing the current challenge with passion and humanity. Once again, my congratulations go to the entire organization of the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest for their remarkable work in this difficult and very demanding time. john barlow (foothills, cpc): During the worst of times, we see the best in people. I cannot say enough about my constituents in Foothillsfront-line health care workers, grocery store clerks, restaurateurs, farmersfor all they are doing to keep our community safe and healthy. I want to shine a light on some of our hidden heroes, such as Owen Plumb, a grade 9 student in Okotoks who is using his 3D printer to build PPE for front-line health care workers. He partnered with the Rotary Club and Evergreen Solutions in Okotoks to help with the manufacturing and assembly. There is also Sam Schofield, the volunteer president of the Pincher Creek Chamber of Commerce, overnight built a resiliency website for COVID-19 by building training tools for businesses throughout his area. He also helped develop the Foothills Business Recovery Taskforce, which is a resource for businesses throughout southern Alberta in my riding. Finally, to the employees of Cargill Foods in High River, I know this has been a very difficult time and that many of you have lost loved ones. I want to say thank you for tirelessly doing all you can to protect our food supply and keep food on our table. scott simms (coast of bayscentralnotre dame, lib.): Thank you, Chair. I would like to take this time to salute those who go above and beyond the call of duty to provide care and comfort to others. In my 16 years in the House of Commons I have never experienced anything like this, when we find our lives are at a standstill and there is so much sorrow felt by families who suffer from the effects of COVID-19. Shanna and Fred Patey of Bishop's Falls, along with a few of their friends, spend hours next to the Trans-Canada Highway with just a barbeque and a cooler. There is also Mitch Strickland of Grand Falls-Windsor, who owns Appy's Diner. To all our front-line workers in grocery stores and delivery trucks, and to doctors, nurses, LPNs, paramedics, first responders and, of course, our brave women and men in the military, we will be forever grateful and blessed because of you. members: Hear, hear! the chair: That's all the time we have today for Statements by Members. Before going on, I just want to remind all the members that it is a one-minute statement, so if you don't mind, please time it before coming in because we do have limited time. I'm not here to judge anybody's way of speaking, but try to consider the translators and interpreters to make sure that everyone understands what is said, because they are working diligently to try to get both languages out. In sum, there are two things: please slow down and please make sure the statement is confined to one minute. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow the employees who are providing support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. In the early days of the pandemic and the lockdown that followed, Canadians were told by this government that programs would be rolled out very quickly and that gaps and shortcomings would be changed as time went on. While many Canadians are being let down by this government's response and its unnecessarily rigid programs, Conservatives identified solutions weeks ago, yet here we are, two and a half months later, and many of these programs still have not been improved. On April 26 the Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account could qualify for those types of programs. Chair, we knew from the beginning of this pandemic that we did need to move extremely quickly, and that's what we did. Eight million Canadians have had that as a replacement for paycheques lost because of COVID-19. We also moved forward on the wage subsidy and a range of other programs to support workers and small businesses. What we've done in terms of helping small businesses with the Canada emergency business account has had a massive impact on small businesses across the country, but we understand that certain companies and businesses have particularities that mean it's a little more difficult for them to qualify. We are working with them through their regional development agencies, and we encourage them to approach their local RDAs, which will be able to help them get the money they deserve. They're trying to get patted on the back for actions they took back in March, and yet they are letting so many Canadians down by not making these very simple changes. Will companies that have acquired another company still be allowed to use the wage subsidy to keep workers on the job, yes or no? right hon. We have moved forward on supporting as many of them as we possibly can, and we continue to work on filling gaps. I know the member opposite has talked to me a number of times about a tractor company in his riding. I can assure you that finance officials are engaged with that company to see if there's a way to make sure we're getting them the support they need. He can make this very clear, and save a lot of work, just by including the word acquisition. They're continuing to work with a range of businesses across the country that, for various reasons, are not able to apply for the help we have now. The government has set the parameters to qualify for the rent relief program for companies that have experienced a 70% revenue loss. There are untold thousands of businesses that have experienced a 50%, 55%, 60% or 65% loss that are ineligible but have no capacity to pay the rent. We called on the government weeks ago to have a more flexible sliding scale to allow more companies to access this program to keep more people on the job and more businesses open. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, our public servants and policy-makers have been moving creatively and quickly to try to get help to as many people as we possibly can, with our focus being on the people who need it the most. Obviously, this pandemic is affecting everyone and every business across the country in different ways, but our focus has been on ensuring that those who most need it are getting the help they can. We will, of course, continue to work with the parties opposite and all Canadians to ensure that we're getting help to everyone who needs it, but our focus has always been on the most vulnerable, first and foremost. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. If the Liberal Party of Canada had not taken advantage of the emergency programs, would it have laid off all its staff? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we recognized that a number of organizations and companies were facing difficulties because of COVID-19. People work for those organizations, as accountants, receptionists, assistants or labourers, and those people need to be supported. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party one of those organizations in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Any company or organization that can demonstrate a significant drop in its income, whether that be in donations, receipts, profits the chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blanchet. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: In the Magdalen Islands, fishing companies in difficulty and in need of assistance will not have the money that the Liberals are going to take. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have invested in assistance for fishers all across the country. Compared to that company, is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: If the program criteria establish that the Liberal Party is an organization in difficulty, does that mean that the criteria to determine whether an organization is in difficulty are poorly designed? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, all through this pandemic, our priority has been to be here for workers in difficulty so that they do not lose their jobs. yves-franois blanchet: Given the answers from the Prime Minister, let me ask this question: is the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: Restaurant owners on rue Ontario in Montreal feel that they will not make it through the crisis and that they will never open their doors again. By comparison, is the Liberal Party of Canada an organization in difficulty that will not open its doors again after the crisis? We can but hope. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established criteria for that program in order to help those working for various organizations. yves-franois blanchet: Is there a consensus in the Liberal Party caucus that the Liberal Party is in difficulty as an organization? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we are working every day to help Canadians and workers in difficulty. yves-franois blanchet: Does answering a question put the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, it is a pleasure to be here in the House and to answer questions from Canadians and from members of the opposition. yves-franois blanchet: You are going to answer a question from a Quebecker, I hope. Would those companies not deserve to be saved by the money that the supposedly struggling Liberal Party has taken? right hon. justin trudeau: I am always very happy to answer questions from all Canadians currently sitting in the House. yves-franois blanchet: If the Prime Minister is so happy to answer questions, I hope he will be delirious with joy to answer this one. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established a program to help those working in organizations and who could lose their jobs because of COVID-19. The conditions of seniors as outlined by the military were appalling, but seniors need more than just compassionate words. Will the Prime Minister stop hiding behind excuses and actually show leadership to fix long-term care? right hon. It lays out the divisions of powers and responsibilities, and we respect the provinces' jurisdiction over long-term care facilities. However, from the very beginning, we have indicated our willingness to support the provinces on this very important issue. We need to make sure our seniors right across the country are properly cared for, which is why we sent in the military and why we are there to help the provinces. Philpott, said, We need to stop using jurisdiction as an excuse to not have federal leadership. Now, we know from the military report that staff were afraid to use vital equipment because of the cost. Chair, over the past couple of days I've had very good conversations with the premiers of both Quebec and Ontario on this important issue. I look forward to discussing issues around long-term care with all the premiers of the provinces and territories tomorrow evening as well. Ontarians and indeed people right across the country are deeply preoccupied by what they've seen going on. jagmeet singh: The military report found that cockroaches and flies were present and that food was rotten. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards so that long-term care is governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. Chair, our priority right now is ensuring that we are supporting the provinces in their need to make sure that all seniors are protected right across the country in all those institutions. Going forward, we absolutely will need to have more conversations about how we can ensure that every senior across the country is properly supported. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards and for long-term care to be governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. This is something we all take very seriously, and all orders of government will work together to make sure that right now, and going forward, we improve our systems. We need a commitment at the federal level that the Prime Minister will push for things that people need, which is to remove profit from long-term care and to establish national standards. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, I will always be here to stand up for Canadians in all different situations. We are going to work with the provinces, fully respecting jurisdictions, to make sure that, all across the country, Canadians in long-term care are supported as required and receive the services and the care they deserve. The COVID-19 crisis should not be used as an excuse to avoid presenting solutions to the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls committee, in particular by delaying action on the calls for justice. This is the same government that would not recognize it as a genocide, the same government that delayed the United Nations declaration legislation and the same government that is still taking indigenous kids to court. Will this government commit to core funding for indigenous services to help women and girls and ensure that the calls for justice are implemented without delay? right hon. Chair, we continue to work very closely with partners on the calls for justice even as we act in many areas, including better funding for shelters and for victims of domestic violence. We will continue to work with those partners, but people will understand that many of those partners are very focused right now on helping front-line workers, not on establishing the report. We will continue to work with them on the report, but the COVID-19 situation has made that more difficult. the chair: I want to thank the honourable members who are shouting time, but I do have a timer here, and I am taking care of it. He was just talking about the tragic conditions in long-term care facilities in Ontario, and there was a report out from Quebec today. I want to commend the Canadian Armed Forces for witnessing these appalling conditions, putting it in the context of a report, and providing care to our loved ones in these long-term care facilities. The government is saying they didn't receive the report from the department until May 22, but this report came out on May 14. I then forwarded it to the Minister of Public Safety on the 22nd, and that report was then given to the provincial authorities very quickly afterwards. james bezan: I trust that you got the report on the 21st, but the report was written on the 14th, so what happened with that report for seven days? Why wasn't it acted upon? Could you just explain that? Our loved ones were at risk during that entire time. Chair, as we stated, this report was done and given up through the chain of command, and the appropriate leadership did their due diligence. Again, I want to commend our Canadian Armed Forces members for not only the tremendous work they are doing but also for doing their duty. james bezan: That report from Ontario documented appalling conditions, horrific care that was being given to the clients, and also the way that the staff conducted themselves. Minister, do you believe that the infection could have been transmitted from staff to our soldiers serving in long-term care facilities because proper protocols were not being followed? hon. Chair, when it comes to any type of activities that we send our Canadian Armed Forces on, we do our due diligence to make sure that we have the right protocols in place and the appropriate training. This is why we have taken the time to make sure our folks not only did the appropriate training but had the appropriate equipment. We have the right protocols in place, and we will make sure that our members who are infected by COVID will get the appropriate treatment as well. james bezan: Does the Minister of National Defence believe that our soldiers serving in Operation Laser, who have put themselves in harm's way in battling the COVID virus as a war, deserve to have hazard pay benefits? hon. Chair, when it comes to looking after Canadian Armed Forces personnel, yes, we are actually in the process as we speak of making sure that our members have the appropriate hazard pay. I would finally like to come back to the issue of the timeline from May 14 to May 21, when that report was in the department for one week. Will the minister take responsibility for that report sitting on someone's desk for seven days and not being turned over to the proper authorities? hon. Chair, I want to make it very clear: When it comes to the observations that were made, those were immediately reported to the appropriate management of the care facilities and to the appropriate links within the province. At the same time, this report was being compiled and pushed up to the chain of command, and they did their due diligence. As I stated, it was given to us, and on the same day it was forwarded to the Minister of Public Safety, who immediately then sent it to the provincial authorities. Chair, as stated, this will not only be given to the proper authorities but the appropriate steps will be taken now. rosemarie falk (battlefordslloydminster, cpc): Thank you, Chair. Yesterday it was revealed that the Minister of Digital Government has been promoting a fundraising campaign to sue Global News for their story criticizing the Chinese Communist Party. Why is the minister using her authority to support the Communist Party of China and threatening our media and freedom of expression? hon. WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chair: Now we'll go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister aware of the efforts that the United Front carries out on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party to influence how Canadians view the People's Republic of China? hon. The participation in the WeChat group, much like Facebook, is guided by posted the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister an active participant in the efforts by the Communists to muzzle a Canadian journalist and deprive Canadians of the facts about China? hon. I will say that the individual in question posted something outside of the guidelines of my WeChat group and is no longer the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Falk, I just want to point out that we do have interpreters listening and trying to interpret. joyce murray: I think the member knows very well that the people who post on WeChat are free to post what they choose within certain guidelines. rosemarie falk: Chair, Sam Cooper is an investigative Canadian journalist who has uncovered many different criminal rackets that can be linked back to Beijing. joyce murray: As we all know, community outreach is a very important part of the work of a member of Parliament. WeChat is one of many social media sites regularly used by members the chair: We go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Chair, when will the minister apologize to Sam Cooper and Global News? hon. Chair, I have been very clear that I do not share the views of the person who posted on my WeChat site, who operated outside of my the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Chair, I want to assure the member that we are always vigilant in any foreign interference in our national security or issues of political interference in our society. It's monitored carefully by the national security establishment, according to the law as it exists in this country, and we will remain vigilant. Will the Liberals hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated this part of the charter? hon. I think, as the minister has made very clear, she was not involved in this process and has no control over the individual who posted that matter. Will the government hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated their part of the charter? hon. Chair, I want to assure the member that our government remains committed to the rule of law and we will always work tirelessly to uphold the laws of this country. rosemarie falk: Still, was that a yes or a no? I'm not hearing a yes or a no. Chair, to answer the question for the House and to assure the member opposite that our government will always remain committed to the rule of law. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. bill morneau (minister of finance): Mr.Chair, we continue to be transparent with our measures. Of course, we want to make sure that our investments, our economy the chair: The floor is yours, Mr.Deltell. grard deltell: Let me ask my question to the honourable Minister of Finance once more, since he is talking about transparency. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, the Minister of Finance may not know what the deficit is, but one great Canadian does know. Could the Minister of Finance be very clear, very fluid and, above all, very transparent with Canadians? What is Canada's deficit? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I want to be very clear with Canadians: our economic situation is very difficult. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, with all due respect to the Minister of Finance, let me point out that, though he is not very clear, Canada's Parliamentary Budget Officer was clear yesterday. Why does the government not have the courage to state it clearly, as the Parliamentary Budget Officer did yesterday? hon. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, I know that the Minister of Finance is very good with figures. Perhaps he could comment on the statement that the Parliamentary Budget Officer made yesterday, that the emergency assistance must have an end date, and if it does not, we are heading to levels of taxation that have not been seen in this country for generations. What is the government going to do to make sure that Canadians will not be overtaxed after this crisis? hon. When we have more information, we will the chair: Mr.Deltell, you have the floor. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, will the minister commit not to raise taxes after the crisis? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I have said several times that we do not have a plan to raise taxes. grard deltell: Finally a clear answer! However, I'm not convinced that he will apply it. In fact, the Parliamentary Budget Officer himself has said that there isn't much ammunition left without shifting into a large structural deficit, which can lead directly to tax increases. If the Minister of Finance can't even say today what the deficit is today, how can he be credible when he says that he won't raise taxes? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I think what's most important is that during this pandemic, Canadians and companies across the country need the Government of Canada's help. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, all observers are expecting an economic update to know where we're going. Chair, the United States, Australia, India, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and Vietnam have created an economic prosperity group to diversify some of their key supply chains away from China. Indeed, we have been working diligently with all of these countries to make sure that we are keeping global supply chains open during this critical time. I think everyone agrees that keeping supply chains open for medical goods, critical agriculture and essential goods is absolutely essential and the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, this government is refusing to come to terms with what COVID-19 will mean for the future of international trade. Why is Canada not at the table with our largest trading partner protecting the viability of our international supply chains and capitalizing on the opportunities of others doing the same? the chair: Before we go to the minister, one of the members has his mike still on, and I would ask that he turn it off. Chair, Canada has unprecedented access to a number of markets around the world because of the extraordinary agreements that we have made to provide access to customers in those international markets. I have had two meetings with G20 trade ministers on the importance of keeping supply chains the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, is this payback for the Prime Minister snubbing these countries at the original TPP signing? hon. Chair, we have a CPTPP arrangement with these countries, and we are looking forward to making sure that we get Canadian businesses growing into those markets. will begin applying tariffs at the beginning of next year on Canadian exports such as seafood, beef and cars. I want to assure Canadian businesses that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the U.K. Chair, after CUSMA, this government guaranteed to the trade committee that they would publish the objectives of any new trade agreement. Chair, we look forward to working to ensure that those objectives are published as we get into future trade discussions. Chair, the resignation of the WTO director-general at this unprecedented time is concerning for the international trade community. Is the government committed to supporting a DG candidate who is dedicated to the massive reforms needed to get the WTO functioning again? hon. The Ottawa group, led by Canada, is working with like-minded countries on the reform of the WTO. I look forward to making sure that we are leading the way on those discussions with like-minded the chair: Mr. Has the government sought out and received assurances from the United States that no such action will apply to Canadian cattle? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. Chair, we have an excellent assurance of our trade with the United States, which is our new NAFTA trade agreement that we have negotiated, thanks to the unprecedented co-operation across this country. Chair, going forward post-COVID, there are a lot things that will be changing in supply chains. What is this government doing proactively to look at opportunities in these supply chains that Canadian businesses can take advantage of? hon. Chair, we continue to work with countries around the globe to ensure that Canada's supply chains and those global supply chains, particularly for essential goods, for agricultural products, for medical supplies, continue to remain open. Chair, on the agriculture side, canola farmers would like to know the status of canola going into China. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, I want to assure my colleague that we are continuing to work with our industry representatives, our allies and our trading partners in China. cathy mcleod (kamloopsthompsoncariboo, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Senior Canadian bureaucrats received very credible reports in early January that China was procuring and hoarding PPE. Chair, from the very beginning of the outbreak in early January we were aware of the challenges our health sector would face, and we immediately began to work with the provinces and territories to understand what the need would be and how we could best prepare. cathy mcleod: In April, the minister stated there were not enough supplies in the national emergency stockpile. Can she explain why she approved a donation of 16 tonnes of PPE for China on January 31, claiming it would not compromise our supply? She can't have it both ways. Chair, we are operating in a highly competitive global environment, and the reality is that we need to make sure we have multiple complementary supply chains operating at the same time, which we have been doing in the past weeks and months, to ensure our front-line health care workers have the supplies they need to keep Canadians safe. cathy mcleod: Unfortunately, this question was directed to the health minister, referencing things she actually stated in terms of the availability of our supplies. Before the she signed off on the donationand it was the health minister who signed off on the donationdid she consult with the health ministers in the provinces and territories? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, provinces and territories have their own stockpiles, which of course they use to prepare for incidences of outbreak and other illnesses across their jurisdictions. We've worked very closely with the provinces and territories since the beginning of the outbreak to make sure we can provide any particular additional support. cathy mcleod: Health care workers are now having to look at modified full-face snorkels as an alternative to N95 masks. Did it not occur to the minister that our hospitals and care homes could have used that PPE she shipped out, providing a longer opportunity for them to also get procurement done? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, the equipment that was donated when China was in its outbreak was an important donation of nearly expired or expired goods that it was in desperate need of in its effort to try to contain the virus. As the member opposite knows, we've been able to work successfully with provinces and territories to ensure they have what they need. Chair, I would suggest that during February and March our hospitals would have consumed that almost-expired product very efficiently, but I want to move on to another topic. When defending the sale of 22 seniors' homes to the Chinese government, the Prime Minister stated that we have a strong regulatory regime that imposes rigorous standards. Was the Prime Minister completely oblivious to the risks, or was he just too anxious to please the Chinese government when he sold those 22 homes? hon. Chair, the homes the member opposite is referring to are in the province of B.C., and I have to commend the province for the early work it did to protect seniors in those long-term care homes. As she knows, the review we did was entirely separate from the standards to which the province holds the care homes. cathy mcleod: The Prime Minister does not have authority over seniors' homes, which he has clearly stated, but he does have authority over the act in which he approved the sale. Chair, the long-term care homes in each province fall within the jurisdiction of their own particular act, and those provinces and territories are responsible for fulfilling the inspections required under that act. cathy mcleod: Under the Investment Canada Act, the government is obligated to review the sale for compliance. Since the government approved the sale, it is complicit in the care of our seniors in this country hon. That is why we follow the appropriate steps, outlined under the Investment Canada Act, to make sure that any measures we take keep seniors and their well-being first and foremost. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): Mr.Chair, during the pandemic, the government has given money to companies that don't pay a cent in tax because they use tax havens. During the pandemic, the government gave money to Air Canada, but Air Canada never reimbursed customers who did not get the services they paid for. Is the moral of the story that the government thinks that dipping into the pockets of taxpayers to spend money carelessly is no big deal? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, the fight against tax evasion is a priority for our government. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, when I see that it's the Minister of National Revenue answering me, I don't feel like buying a lottery ticket. The Liberal Party used two airplanes in its last election campaign, which seems to indicate that it isn't short of money. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we think it's very important to protect employees across the country and in every economic sector that's experiencing a significant drop in income. That's the approach we've taken to protect people and to ensure that there will be jobs in the future. alain therrien: It's especially important to protect the employees who work for the Liberals to ensure their re-election, yet the Liberal Party has raised more than $7million since the last election. We think that this principle is very important and that this approach must be maintained in order to have a better job market in the future. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, we still don't know exactly how much money the Liberals took from the cookie jar. How many SMEs could have been saved with the $1million that the Liberals took out of the jar and took away from SMEs? hon. We are protecting hundreds of thousands of SMEs through the emergency wage subsidy, the Canada emergency response benefit and all our programs. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, I will propose a choice of answers, or I won't get any. The first possible answer is that when the Liberals brought in the emergency wage subsidy, they set parameters allowing them to use it. The second is that when the Liberals saw the Conservative Partywhich is as rich as they are, but also sanctimonious and self-righteoustake advantage of the subsidy, they thought they could do it too. The third possible answer is that the Liberals hadn't planned to use the subsidy, but they pounced on the cookie jar when they saw it, because that's what they do. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we continue to think it is very important to protect employees in every sector of the economy and across Canada. That's our approach, and I believe it's the right one to protect and preserve jobs across the country during a pandemic. the chair: We are now going to suspend the proceedings for a few seconds to allow the employees who provide support for the meeting to replace each other safely. Chair, when the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces stepped in to provide support to five long-term care homes in Ontario at the request of the premier, they released a report that outlined their findings in detail. Almost 1,000 seniors so far have lost their lives in long-term care homes in Ontario alone, over 25 of them in my riding of MississaugaErin Mills. Can the Minister of Health please update the House on how our federal government is working with the provinces and territories to prevent further tragic occurrences from happening at long-term care homes and to ensure that our most vulnerable seniors are properly looked after and cared for? hon. I believe all Canadians were deeply horrified to read the details from the Canadian Armed Forces on the conditions in long-term care homes in Ontario. I had a very good conversation with my provincial and territorial counterparts last night about the work we can do at a national level to support their important work. We'll continue to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that they get the care and dignity they deserve. I will sadly report that my community of Pickering has experienced the largest number of deaths at a single COVID-19 outbreak location anywhere in this country. Yesterday, we received the horrific report from the Canadian Armed Forces detailing what they witnessed at Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes' Grace Manor in Brampton. The loved ones of those who have passed away, as well as the homes' workers, have asked for a full public inquiry from the Ontario government. I know that the responsibility for these facilities falls within provincial jurisdiction, but on behalf of our communities, can the Minister of Health update us on the work she is doing to ensure that the Ontario government takes action immediately and initiates a full, independent, non-partisan public inquiry and reverses its decision to create a government-led commission that won't even start until September? hon. Chair, I would say that all Canadians were shocked and horrified to hear about the conditions that existed in these particular care homes. We're so grateful to the members of the armed forces who not only improved conditions but also reported them quickly and appropriately to ensure amelioration of those conditions for those particular individuals. We also know that there are seniors all across the country who are struggling with care and with the appropriate level of care. I stand committed to working with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that we do better as a society. We know that there's a role we can play at the federal level with advice, with guidance, with support and, yes, with investments. We look forward to having those conversations about how best we can improve the care for all seniors amongst us. Canadians were horrified to hear the report yesterday from our armed forces about the appalling conditions experienced by seniors in our long-term care homes. Page after page detailed the filth, neglect, abuse and danger our seniors in care are exposed to on a daily basis. Shockingly they face injury and death through missed medications, expired medications, unsterile devices and violations of basic contagion rules to stop the spread of COVID-19. Given that evidence of possible criminal conduct was contained in the military's report, will the minister refer this matter to the RCMP for investigation immediately? hon. We understand in long-term care facilities both seniors and persons living with a disability face unique challenges, and the findings of this report are in fact deeply concerning and completely unacceptable. Considering the severity of this report, we promptly shared it with the Province of Ontario, and the Province of Ontario has initiated an investigation based on the report's findings. Their investigation includes alerting the province's chief coroner who has the authority to alert the police of jurisdiction. We will continue to work with the province to protect those living in long-term care facilities, and we continue to support them through the deployment of our outstanding Canadian Armed Forces and in our partnership with the Red Cross. Chair, that's a shocking answer considering there's clear evidence of criminal conduct and negligence in this. That this federal government is not taking immediate steps to refer this to the nation's RCMP is unacceptable. COVID-19 has exposed critical vulnerabilities across Canada's entire network of long-term care facilities. Not a single province or territory currently meets the benchmark of 4.1 hours of hands-on care per day. As a result Canada has the worst record of COVID-19 deaths in long-term care among 14 comparable countries, with over 80% of Canadian fatalities occurring in these facilities. Chair, the member opposite is exactly correct when he says that those who are hardest hit in terms of losing their lives and the negative effects of COVID are those who are living in long-term care homes. He's also correct when he indicates that COVID-19 has shown us what many of us have known for a long time, that we need to do better in long-term care and supports for seniors. As the member knows, we started those steps some four years ago or so when we began to make incredible investments in aging at home. We know that is one part of the solution, but we have to do better for those seniors who need a higher level of care. I'm working with my colleagues at the provinces and territories to make sure that we come up with a solution that will truly result in better standards for all. Chair, what we need is binding national standards, just like we set through the Canada Health Act in the health care sector generally. Gross fecal contamination, filthy medical equipment, insect infestations, ignoring patient cries for hourswe would never tolerate these conditions in Canada's hospitals. Will the minister move to bring long-term care facilities under the Canada Health Act, or similar legislation, with formal funds tied to acceptable standards of care for our seniors, just like we do for hospitals? hon. Chair, the member shares the disgust and concern of so many Canadians across the country, not only those who have read the report but many of those who have struggled to provide care to elders in those long-term care homes, regardless of the province in which they live. We know that collectively, at all levels of government, we must do better for those people who cared for us and nurtured us all of those years. The member has my commitment that I will work with provinces and territories to find a solution forward to ensure that every person has the right to age with dignity and safety. Davies, you have 15 seconds for another question, a short one, and leave time for a response. These failures are the product of systemic neglect often motivated by prioritizing profit over the provision of adequate care. Does the minister agree that we should not be putting profits above the health care needs of Canada's seniors? hon. Chair, I believe that, when we commit to taking care of people, we must do so with the utmost care that is required. We must all work together to protect those people in our lives who are most vulnerable, whether they be seniors, children or others. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. According to Vaughn Palmer in an editorial in the Vancouver Sun regarding the secret Wet'suwet'en deal, Palmer writes: The hereditary chiefs calculated the two governments would sign despite the objections from the elected chiefs. Can the minister describe another situation in which the federal government negotiated a secret deal of this magnitude with unelected people? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): I thank the member for his ongoing concern and I want to remind him that actually it is in keeping with the Supreme Court decision of 1997 that we were to now begin those conversations with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs who took the case to the Supreme Court. As we've said many times, this is not an agreement; this is an MOU that establishes the path forward for the substantive discussions towards a final agreement, which would describe the future governance and the implementation of Wet'suwet'en rights and title. Chair, if it is a shared commitment, why on the eve of the signing ceremony did the four elected chiefs denounce the hereditary chiefs for keeping them in the dark? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it's really important that the member understand that there was a process for the hereditary chiefs to go back to their communities and discuss with them. Any agreement after the good work that will happen now would have to go back and seek the approval of all of the communities. Chair, the Burns Lake Band members are openly wondering if they're still a band or if the few unelected hereditary chiefs will control everything now. Minister, can you assure them that going forward you will honour their concerns and take the time to listen? the acting chair (mr. carolyn bennett: Actually, the honourable member knows that the next steps include the further and ongoing engagement by the Wet'suwet'en in their house groups and that will include the six elected chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en nation, their community members and many others. Cynthia Joseph, a chief councillor with the Hagwilget First Nation says the MOU between Ottawa, the province and the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs was only shared with her community members on May 9, two days after it was published in the media. carolyn bennett: Walking the path of reconciliation means that we work with our partners and there is a way that they do the work within their communities. It is going to be an agreement to begin the work, but any final agreement is going to have to be approved by all members of the nation in terms of developing a consensus for the agreement the acting chair (mr. Does the minister have any concerns regarding claims by several former female hereditary chiefs that they were stripped of their hereditary status because they didn't agree with the men? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it is going to be really important that the work take place within the Wet'suwet'en nation to determine their future governance, to determine their way of working with Canada and to make sure the acting chair (mr. For some reason it seems to be a problem to stand up for these hereditary female chiefs who had their titles taken away. Does the minister plan on recognizing band council resolutions denying the authority of hereditary chiefs to sign any future agreements without consent of the elected chiefs and the 3,000 members within the Wet'suwet'en they represent? hon. carolyn bennett: I think the member must understand that, as we begin the work, the nation will do its work and then we will come to the table to determine what the governance would be. Will it be a hybrid model like at Heiltsuk, like Ktunaxa, like some of the communities developing their constitutions, developing their laws and deciding how they will determine their own governance and that partnership with Canada? the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The current restrictions on non-essential travel at the border do not prevent people from claiming refugee protection if they have family in Canada. We have heard from many constituents and members of Parliament from right across the country who are expressing concern about non-status spouses being denied entry into the country because their travel is deemed to be non-essential. I've recently been in touch with all of the provinces and territories because I think it's very important that we have their support for any changes the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus: If I understand correctly, Mr.Minister, you are talking to provincial representatives, but a case like that of ChantalTremblay, for instance, is unacceptable. For two months now, she has been trying to bring her spouse to Canada, but it isn't working. Is there a way to issue a directive to border services officers that married spousesit's often marriages with Americanscan cross the border to join their spouses in Canada? hon. bill blair: Just to be very clearagain, I thank the member opposite for the opportunity to clarify thisit is never our intention to separate families, but at the same time, we have imposed appropriate and necessary restrictions on non-essential travel. Our border services officers inquire of everyone coming to that border about the nature of their travel, and for non-citizens who come to that border seeking entry into Canada, if their entry is deemed non-essential, then they exercise their discretion not to allow the acting chair (mr. However, 100,000foreigners have entered Canada, even though the border is supposedly closed. How does the minister explain the fact that 100,000people arrived in Canada by plane? hon. We have imposed very significant restrictions on non-essential travel, but of course there are circumstances where individuals come to this country and their entry into Canada is deemed essential. For example, someone who is providing medical services and coming into Canada to provide those services would be deemed essential, because there is a great need among Canadians for those services. As you can see by the numbers, we have had a very significant reduction in the travel of all non-Canadians to Canada over the past two months. pierre paul-hus: So the minister confirms that the 100,000people who arrived by air were providing a service considered essential to Canada. I'm not talking about the people who crossed the land border, but the people who came to Canada by air. bill blair: What I can tell you is that at all points of entry, including our air borders, we apply the standard that the travel must be deemed essential, and that determination is utilized to see if a person is eligible to enter into the country. pierre paul-hus: We're now learning that the Correctional Service of Canada's investigation into the murder of MarylneLevesque is suspended due to the COVID-19 outbreak. Can the minister direct the Correctional Service of Canada to resume the investigation into the death of MarylneLevesque? hon. bill blair: Again, I thank the member for the question, because we know the concern of the people of Quebec, and the family of Ms. That's why we asked the Parole Board and the Correctional Service of Canada to convene a board of investigation. Clearly, during COVID transmission, the ability to conduct that investigation and to interview all of the witnesses became extremely difficult and has been temporarily suspended, but at the very earliest opportunity we remain resolute to resume that investigation and get to the bottom of it to provide the answers that the family deserves. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, victims of crime are one of the segments of the population most affected by the crisis. For the first time in its history, and to add insult to injury, the government has cancelled all activities related to Victims and Survivors of Crime Week, which was to take place next week. bill blair: Again, at the earliest days of COVID, until arrangements could be put in place, there were restrictions on victims participating. We have put the systems in place to allow victims to present their evidence virtually, either by video or by phone, to ensure that their voices are heard in these important things. We very much respect and support the role of victims in these determinations, and we're making every effort to ensure that they can participate. Chair, yesterday I asked the Minister of Small Business how many business credit availability guarantees were issued by EDC, and I didn't get a number. Money from this program is flowing, and businesses across the country are receiving the important support that they need. Chair, these are large loans, and they require important due diligence and adjudication by the financial institutions. mary ng: I want to assure the member that we're going to do everything possible to support businesses and workers during this very important time. james cumming: How many businesses have received funding under the BCAP co-lending program since March? hon. mary ng: The lending programs, particularly the program to help small businesses, have really helped lots of businesses. Over 630,000 loans have been issued, and this is really helping those the acting chair (mr. james cumming: Unfortunately, lots is not an answer for the businesses that I'm trying to talk to. Can you tell me, for the CEBA changes that were recently announced, when will we be able to see people who have income through a dividend able to apply? hon. Those small businesses that will meet the expanded CEBA criteria are working very diligently with the financial institutions to make sure that they can get access to those loans as quickly as possible. mary ng: The financial institutions are working very hard to make sure that they can make this available to businesses. mary ng: We will work very hard and very diligently to make sure that these businesses and those sole proprietors are supported. mary ng: There is nothing more important than making sure these businesses weather the difficult time of COVID-19, and our measures are the acting chair (mr. mary ng: Today, over 630,000 businesses have received the support to do things like pay for salaries, the 25% top-up for the wage subsidy, pay for rent and pay for insurance and utilities. james cumming: How many dollars are left in the program so businesses can have some certainty that the program will be available for some time? hon. mary ng: I think you will see that the businesses across the country that I have talked to really appreciate that the government has stepped up to help them during this difficult time. These include women with businesses, indigenous-owned businesses and those small businesses all across our communities, all across the country, that are getting the necessary help. mary ng: There are 630,000 businesses that are getting help, and thousands more businesses will be getting help with the expanded criteria. We're going to keep doing the work that we need to help our businesses across this country through this difficult time. james cumming: I heard from a constituent in my riding that they waited for over four hours on the portal for CECRA. james cumming: Finally, the Prime Minister yesterday said that a list of all organizations that have been receiving CEWS will be made public. mary ng: We have committed to making sure that those companies taking the wage subsidy program will be listed publicly. The Canadian Coast Guard is doing a search at this moment following the loss of a vessel off the coast of Newfoundland. From my community, which is a seafaring, fishing community, I just want to put my thoughts out there to the folks of Newfoundland. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): Thank you, Mr. I want to thank my colleague for his comments with regard to the tragic accident off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, where we saw the loss of life in a fishing accident. We have made available over half a billion dollars to processors and harvesters to make sure they can weather this storm. We have made sure that the harvesters are able to access the harvester benefit as well as the grant, recognizing the unique nature of their business and how they are not able to access some of our other programs. Chair, to continue along this vein for a moment, we are still looking at unstable markets for a longer period of time. The plants are filling up, and harvesters are worried that they might stop buying product before the season is complete. What can the fishermen expect, or what kinds of programs can they expect, if the season goes bust? hon. We also know that because of the decline in markets, we've had to make accommodations for the processing sector in order to help them be better able to support the harvesters. We have put in $62.5 million, which is allowing the processors to increase capacity in their refrigeration and freezers so that they will continue to be able to purchase product. As I said earlier, we will continue to monitor the situation and make sure we do everything possible to support our harvesters. Chair, I don't know whether this next question will go to the Minister of DFO or the Minister of Transport. For those who are far-sighted or nearsighted, you just have to put on your glasses to correct it. I don't know about space shuttles, but who knows? You can now wear colour-corrected lenses, but Transport Canada still does not recognize these for use. We have medical standards with respect to a number of different kinds of transportation-related jobs for pilots, mariners and those kinds of occupations, which have to be respected. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, the eligibility criteria for financial support include the need to demonstrate a significant loss of income during the months of March and April, yet several SMEs in the tourism industry can't qualify because their operations start with the tourist season, in late May or early June. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, before accessing the emergency wage subsidy, applicants must meet important criteria. However, as we explained last week, we will be adjusting the wage subsidy until the end of August, and we will be reviewing the criteria. bruce stanton): We're going to go to the west coast and the member for SaanichGulf Islands. My colleague, Jenica Atwin from Fredericton, held a press conference this morning in which she used the term echo pandemic. My question to the minister is this: Will we see direct funding to community mental health services as urgently requested by the Canadian Mental Health Association? hon. Chair, I read the honourable member's colleague's letter just today, and I want to reassure all members that we have invested in mental health supports for Canadians, obviously before the pandemic hit but certainly since we've been living with the pandemic. I'd like to remind all members to direct their constituents to the wellnesstogether.ca website and portal. There Canadians can find online resources, as well as connections to real and alive counsellors and other professionals who can help them with their various concerns. That's not just unprecedented over thousands of years; that's unprecedented over the last one million years. The recognized parties in the House have established standing committees to work, but not the committee on the environment. When will the recognized parties remember the June 2019 emergency resolution that we are in a climate emergency, and start making sure that we hit 2020 commitments under the Paris Agreement to improve our targets? hon. We realize that along with the COVID pandemic, which is the major problem that exists in the world today, there is another problem as well that affects the entire planet, and that is the problem associated with climate change. elizabeth may: My next question will be for Minister Blair, but as an aside, I will say that last answer completely fails to meet the legal requirements of the Paris Agreement to file a new target this year. To save some time, Minister Blair, let's pretend to go back to the questions from my colleague MP Paul-Hus and to your last answer. Could the minister please put out a directive, advice to every CBSA agent on the ground, that when a non-status entry point sees a non-status direct relativehusband, wife, child of a Canadian citizenthat relative be deemed to be entering Canada for an essential purpose? hon. At the same time, we've been working with the provinces and territories, listening to the concerns of Canadians about ensuring that travel across our international border, particularly with the United States, is limited to essential travel. As I've indicated, I've had a number of important conversations and necessary conversations with our provincial and territorial partners. I believe there is a consensus on the right way forward on this, and we're working very diligently to put it in place. I believe our border services officers have been doing an extraordinary job for us in the exercise of their discretion. At the same time, they have been doing the important work of ensuring the health and safety of Canadians at our border. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): Four out of the five homes listed in the armed forces report were for-profit. Will the minister admit that the for-profit model is failing our loved ones and commit to getting profits out of long-term care? hon. patty hajdu: As the member opposite notes, nobody can read that report or hear those stories without feeling absolute horror and disgust and without demanding better for the elders in our lives. As I have mentioned many times in the House, our government remains committed to working with provinces and territories to ensure that every elder person in our community can age with dignity and in safety. Will the minister make sure that the focus of long-term care homes is taking care of seniors and not taking care of owners' bank accounts? hon. patty hajdu: As the member will obviously know, long-term care remains in the jurisdiction of provinces and territories, and there is legislation that rules them as such. As the member also knows, we have stood by Ontario and all of the other provinces and territories throughout this outbreak. jenny kwan: Is the minister refusing to answer the question because she agrees that profit should come before care? hon. patty hajdu: I think it's unfortunate that the member is trying to place words in my mouth. What I do agree with, though, is that long-term care needs to be reformed, and I think all provinces and territories know, and all Canadians know, that we have to do a better job. Is she willing to defend for-profit care for our seniors? Is she in favour of for-profit private health care too? hon. patty hajdu: What I am willing to defend is the right for all Canadians to age with safety and dignity. jenny kwan: To the minister, what is the difference? Why sell out the care of our seniors? Will she commit that she will take profit out of long-term care? hon. Chair, I think the member opposite knows that the only way to actually reform long-term care is to work with provinces and territories, in fact, all levels of government, to ensure that the people who spent their lives caring for and nurturing us can end their lives with caring and nurturing the acting chair (mr. Since the government owns these homes, has the military been sent in there to see what's happening to seniors under their care? hon. Chair, we know that it is important to work with all of the provinces and territories under whose jurisdiction it falls to protect the seniors within those care homes. That's what we've been doing since the beginning of the outbreak of the coronavirus, and that's what we'll continue to do to protect the lives of seniors and strengthen their protection. Chair, work with the provinces and territories to have a longer-term plan so that all seniors can age with dignity and safety. What is the government doing to ensure the standards of care in these Revera homes that they own? hon. Chair, as I have repeatedly said, the jurisdiction for care of long-term care homes falls within the provincial and territorial realm. Chair, we have been there for provinces and territories since the outbreak of the coronavirus, and as the member opposite has clearly or likely heard the Prime Minister say, we will stand with provinces and territories as all elders have the right to age with dignity the acting chair (mr. Do you think that the families of the seniors in these homes want to hear those excuses about jurisdictional issues? Does the minister not think that the families want to hear that the federal government is doing all it can to care for their parents? the acting chair (mr. Quite frankly, I don't think that families care which level of government is responsible for caring for their elders. That's in fact what our government believes, and that's why we have willingly stepped up to say to provinces and territories that we will be there with you to make sure that all seniors in our lives have the right to age with dignity and care. bruce stanton): We will now give the floor to Mrs.Gill, from the riding of Manicouagan. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Mr.Chair, my question is for the Prime Minister who, earlier, clearly told us that the government's assistance is intended for those who are most in need and most vulnerable. I don't know if the PrimeMinister read the newspapers yesterday, but in Quebec, losses to the tune of $4billion are expected until March2021 in the tourism accommodation sector alone. How can I justify to my constituents the fact that a political party, which does not need it, has already seen money from the emergency wage subsidy, when people in my riding don't yet have access to it because of the seasonal nature of their work? These people haven't seen the money that is available through these programs. bill morneau: We think it is very important to protect the country's employees in all sectors of the economy. Through this approach, there will be more jobs after the pandemic, and the economic situation will be better. They are saying that they are protecting the jobs of the Liberal Party of Canada, which does not need the money. Another program was created for them, which isn't quite the same and doesn't really meet their needs. A government whose political wingnot the parliamentary wingdoesn't really need money takes money from the fund, but leaves fishers to make do with less generous programs that don't meet their needs. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that many sectors of the economy across the country are facing challenges. We will continue our approach because we believe it's the best way to protect employees and our economy. The government is saying that the best way to proceed is to give money to the political wing of the Liberal Party of Canada, when there are people who are getting nothing. What am I supposed to tell seasonal workers, who have absolutely no assurances for their future? I can't go back to my riding and say I'm proud of the work the government is doing or our efforts in the House. I have a very hard time accepting that the government is helping employees of the Liberal Party in preparation for the next election campaign, when communities in my region are dying because their economies revolve around a single industry. I can't tell them I'm not ashamed of what's going on as we speak. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we felt it was necessary to put emergency programs in place in response to the crisis during the pandemic. The emergency wage subsidy is a program that is clearly meant to ensure employees are protected and maintain their relationship with their employer. As for the Canada emergency response benefit, it means a lot to people who don't have a job. We are going to stick to our approach, which is to use consistent criteria to help all employees and all Canadians around the country struggling in any sector of the economy. marilne gill: Mr.Chair, I think the honourable Minister of Finance lives in an ivory tower. However, people who need that money, people who are actually losing money or who don't know if they'll even be working this summer are getting zilch. Are the Liberals going to return that money? Is the finance minister going to help all sectors of the economy, including tourism, fisheries and seasonal industries? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for her question. The emergency wage subsidy is meant for any sector of the economy where revenues have dropped by 30% or more. We are also providing the Canada emergency response benefit to other employees, meaning, those who have lost their income because of COVID-19. Consequently, we will keep up our approach to ensure we continue to fare as well as possible and the economy works well after the pandemic. bruce stanton): Now we'll go to our last group of interventions, and that will be from Ms. I'd like to begin with a shout-out to the brave waiters and waitresses at our local Earls restaurant and Browns Socialhouse, who have been opened again for on-site dining this week. we're beginning to find our new normal, and it was great to see how small businesses have so quickly adapted their establishments to keep their workers and patrons safe while allowing people to get back to the business of living. Chair, here in my riding I recently had contact with the mayor of Langley City who was wondering if I had any way of accessing personal protective gear, because our local firefighters were running out of stock. Then again yesterday, I spoke with one of our local homeless shelters that is also looking for PPE. Tam is telling all Canadians to wear masks in public, but I'm wondering if the Minister of Public Service and Procurement could tell us where exactly we're going to get all those masks with the current shortage. anita anand: I want to be clear that our priority as a federal government has been to respond to provincial and territorial requests for PPE that goes to front-line health care workers. That is our priority, and we've been procuring goods aggressively in domestic and international markets. We are now actively also exploring ways in which we can assist broader organizations across the country with PPE needs, and that is something that I'll continue to update the House on as we go forward. tamara jansen: A Globe and Mail article revealed that government orders for N95 masks have steadily been dropping. Chair, the number of N95 masks ordered, as reported on the department's website, does continue to fall. Will the minister tell us why we seem to continue to struggle to supply PPE to Canadians? hon. anita anand: It is no secret that we are in a global competition for N95 masks and other supplies, so the Government of Canada's approach is to diversify supply chains internationally and build up and retool domestic industry so that we can have these supplies going forward. In terms of the numbers on our web page, we have short-term and long-term contracts in place the acting chair (mr. tamara jansen: Yes, I understand that a number of Chinese mask manufacturers have been nationalized, and products for Canadians have been confiscated by the CCP government. Is the drop in N95 orders due to, in actual fact, contracts being cancelled? hon. anita anand: On N95 masks, I would like to assure the member and the House that we have multiple contracts in place for the procurement of N95 masks, including with 3M in the United States, whose masks are crossing our border weekly over the next month. We have our embassy and other firms actively ensuring that our supplies from the manufacturing source make their way to the warehouse. tamara jansen: We know many millions of N95 masks have arrived in Canada from China and have been substandard. Chair, as previously explained to the House, about eight million masks did not meet spec by the Public Health Agency of Canada and have been repurposed to some extent in other areas of the system. tamara jansen: In a previous committee, the deputy minister advised us that Medicom was shoulder-tapped by the government to consider producing PPE. anita anand: We have operated in a very urgent way in order to procure supplies for front-line health care workers. It's a multi-pronged approach, and our priority is to get supplies out to front-line health care workers in this time of crisis as quickly as possible. bruce stanton): Just before we adjourn, I think this another mark of accomplishment on behalf of the great team here at the House of Commons. My compliments to all members joining us here in the House and to all members who have joined by virtual conference<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 14thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. Chair, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, a report entitled "Democracy Matters, Debates Count: A report on the 2019 Leaders' Debates Commission and the future of debates in Canada. Chair, on behalf of all of us, I want to thank the Right Honourable David Johnston for his continued service. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented. It would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor. It also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which, in certain casesfor instance, inside Chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they're killed and used for transplantation. Petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204, and they want to see it passed as soon as possible. Chair, I am presenting a petition today signed by Canadians who are concerned that Bill C-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime, including the mandatory 10-day waiting period. Chair, these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living, not assisted dying. It asks that the Government of Canada recognize the Republic of Somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments, direct access of development aid, foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): Mr.Chair, I thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on Canadians. Canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times. While addressing Canadians, our right honourable Prime Minister showed us leadership, the importance of transparency, and integrity. His top priority was saving lives, along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life. Because of his outstanding leadership, we're admired across the world, which is another distinguished privilege of being Canadian. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): COVID-19 has emptied food banks across Canada, even in an agricultural community like Chatham-Kent, so Wes Thompson and James Rasmussen, along with Alysson Storey, Randi Bokor, Maureen Geddes, Chris and Terry Johnston, Jason King, Fannie Vavoulis and Brent Wilken, grew an idea into the community's largest-ever food drive. Project manager Morna McDonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the May 16 Miracle. Residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps, with drop-off centres organized for rural areas. They accidentally exceeded by over 20% the record in the Guinness World Records book for collected food in a single day. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): As much as I like seeing my friends on the big screens, there are no big screens yet, so we don't know who's on and who's not on. Here in Surrey Centre, and across Canada, the Filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape Canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today. Now more than ever, during these challenging times we must come together as Canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our Filipino neighbours. Throughout June, please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of Filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making Canada a better place for all of us. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. Today is World Milk Day, and I would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry. Let's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors. Enjoy the yogurts, cheeses and other products because it's true that milk is good. I would also like to thank BrunoLetendre, outgoing chair of the Producteurs de lait du Qubec, and I congratulate the new chair, DanielGobeil. The first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors, and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): Mr.Chair, June is Italian Heritage Month. The situation is special this year, since Italy has been hard hit by COVID-19, with more than 30,000deaths. Like me, many Italian Canadians still have family and friends in Italy, and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take, yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between Canada and Italy. During the pandemic, Canadians of Italian descent have been united to support anziani, our famiglie and our amici in Italy by participating in the fundraising campaign COVID-19 AiutiAMO lItalia to support the Italian Red Cross response activities. I send a special salute to to my cugino Giuseppe, who is still on the road to recovery from COVID-19. Chair, I would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in Saskatchewan and across Canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic. As soon as the pandemic hit, RDBID launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs, local initiatives and local success stories. They have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services, online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers. Through persistent communication and a lot of long hours, RDBID has helped businesses in downtown Regina to weather the storm. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): Mr.Chair, high-speed Internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th: an essential service. I would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government, but also about the work I've been doing as a member of Parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of ArgenteuilLa Petite-Nation. Aside from this essential service, our students, seniors, entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions. We have heard you, and I will continue to fight for you, so that you can have access to affordable high-speed Internet. Chair, a few days ago, we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in Minneapolis. For many of us, these images may seem shocking, but it's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the United States but also here in Canada, in my city of Gatineau and around the world, who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism. Mr.Chair, I can't know what it's like to be black in our society. What I do know, however, is that you and I, and everyone in this House, have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just. Black Canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us, and they expect more from us. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): Without a doubt, these past few months have been challenging, to say the least, from both a health and economic perspective, but, Mr. Chair, I have to say how proud I am of my community of StormontDundasSouth Glengarry. We continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and, just as importantly, we are making sure that we are here for each other, whether it is the Cornwall Optimists' GoFeedMe campaign, the Iroquois-Matilda Lions Club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local United Way, the Social Development Council or the Carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need. I rise today in the House of Commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all Canadians; to our essential front-line workers, our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge. I couldn't be more proud of my community and my residents, and it is an honour to serve as their member of Parliament. Chair, although Asian Heritage Month has just passed, we recognize the tremendous effort of all Asian Canadians on the front lines of this pandemic, as health care providers or as essential workers. I want to thank the many Asian organizations for donating to ScarboroughAgincourt's hospital, long-term care homes and food banks. As a Canadian born and raised in Scarborough, I'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting Asian-Canadian communities across this country. In budget 2019 we invested $45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy, which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat, because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed. As events continue to unfold in the United States, it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well. Whether it is anti-black or anti-Asian, racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in Canadafull stop. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Over the last few months, Canadians throughout New Brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community. Health care workers, truckers, farmers, business owners, pharmacists, grocery store staff, faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part. Chair, I would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors, who are among some of our most at-risk citizens. It has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable. Whether they be long-term care staff, personal care workers, health care professionals, family members or volunteers, thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors. Although we've come to the end of Asian Heritage Month, I'd like to acknowledge some unsung Chinese Canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation. I commemorate the 6,500 Chinese Canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite Canada. I pay respect to the many Chinese Canadians who died while building the CP Railway on the most dangerous terrains in the B.C. Adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists. There's no justification for racial slurs, physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community. I will continue to work together with other elected officials, the police and the RCMP to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): Ten years ago today, Cree youth leader Shannen Koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident. She was only 15 years old, yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination. Shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community, but her work carries on through the Shannen's Dream movement. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): Mr.Chair, for months now, thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected: three class action suits, a unanimous motion by the National Assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights. Air Canada, which confiscated $2.6billion from its customers, received more than $800million from Ottawa without any conditions. Yet, the company has a year's worth of cash in reserve, $6billion in its coffers, and is in the process of raising more than $1.4billion in the financial markets. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): Mr.Chair, I want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here, in the House, for close to 15years: MichelGauthier. Michel, in life, we meet a lot of people, but some of them leave their mark on us forever. From the first time I spoke with you two years ago, I immediately understood that I was talking with a man with heart, a passionate man, a man who had Quebec imprinted on his heart. Because of your decision to join the Conservative Party of Canada, I got to know you personally, and I am most grateful. I will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters. Michel, Canadians, Quebeckers and I will remember you forever, the great man you were, the outstanding speaker, a formidable parliamentarian, with integrity, passion, commitment and love for Quebec. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): Mr.Chair, the murder of GeorgeFloyd in Minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in Canada and also in the heart of Montreal North. At a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers, an event like this rekindles feelings of fear, powerlessness and injustice. It has happened once again in the UnitedStates, but we are not immune to such behaviour here, in Canada. Dear constituents of Bourassa, I know our stories, I feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person. There seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it's being transmitted, so let us make things run more smoothly. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. When the government first starting rolling out programs to help Canadians get through this pandemic, we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program. Well, Canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus. Here we are the first day of June and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs; it is still letting so many Canadians down. On April 20 we raised with the Minister of Finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss, and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy, even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that. I would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. Chair, I believe that a company with a fantastic Canadian history in the member's riding, Brandt Tractor, which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in Canada, is particularly affected by this. I know that in the case of Brandt Tractor, for example, officials from the Ministry of Finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues. It's the same answer we got two weeks before that, and it's the same answer we have been getting from day one. This is a very specific question: Will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program? hon. Chair, let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many, many Canadian companies and for many, many Canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program. Now, for sure there are always going to be companies which, because of specifics in their history, need specific attention, and that the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent, precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it. It's a yes-or-no question, and the minister still can't answer it. Along the same lines, we asked on April 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30% revenue loss using other metrics, such as loss of earnings, subscriptions and orders, in order to qualify. Chair, we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep Canadian businesses going and, crucially, to keep Canadian workers connected to their jobs, but I have a question for the member opposite. Half of the questions we hear from the Conservatives in question period are concerns that we're spending too much money, that the deficit is too high. We believe that when times were good, this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $50 million to Mastercard and $12 million to Loblaws. The fact of the matter is that the government left Canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility, and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more Canadians from getting the help they need. Again, on April 26, Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account can qualify. Chair, I'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for Canadians. Canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7. Canada has the fiscal firepower to support Canadians during this unprecedented crisis, and that is what we are going to continue to do. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and SMEs, to avoid closures and bankruptcy. Have I missed something? Is the Liberal Party on the verge of bankruptcy? Is it about to shut down? Does the Prime Minister consider that the Liberal Party is getting ready to close its doors? hon. More than 2million Canadians have benefited from this the chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille, you have the floor. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, the Liberal Party made $3million between January and March of this year. I'm wondering why the Liberal Party doesn't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. I would like to point out again that the purpose of the Canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across Canada and Quebec, to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, does the Deputy Prime Minister think it is moral, fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the Liberal Party of Canada out of their taxes? hon. There is still a lot to do, but we want to work with all the the chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, many struggling businesses in Quebec don't have access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy because they don't meet the eligibility criteria. Does the Deputy Prime Minister really think it's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees? hon. However, it's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support Canadians. More than eightmillion people are benefiting from the CERB, and more than twomillion the chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille, you have the floor. claude debellefeuille: Mr.Chair, what I understand is not really complicated to understand. I understand that the Liberal Party has money, that it has money to pay its employees, but that it doesn't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election. It's as if it were telling us that it's indirectly financing itself for the next election. Will the Deputy Prime Minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I want to point out that our programs do not discriminate. They are there to help all workers across the country, and I want to point out to what extent our programs do that. Eight million people are currently benefiting from the CERB, and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy. Our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of George Floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner. Anti-black racism also impacts Canada, and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored. Will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of COVID-19's impact on communities, particularly black Canadians, and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence? hon. Chair, I would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in Canada and in fighting against it. I agree strongly with the member opposite that we, as Canadians, must be the opposite of complacent. We have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country, that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real. I have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus, and I hope I'll have a chance to do that in my next answer. Will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in Canada, particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding? Will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies, and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country? hon. First of all, on coronavirus, our government believes that disaggregated data, including when it comes to race, is extremely important. We will always work to uphold the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in Canada are protected. At the federal level, RCMP members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination. How many times did the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from March 25 to April 22, during the worst impacts of COVID-19 in long-term care homes? hon. Chair, at this moment I can only speak for myself, and I have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times. While seniors were dying in long-term care homes, the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government met with private, for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times. Why did the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem? Instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role, why didn't the Prime Minister and the Liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes? hon. chrystia freeland: Let me very clear about one thing, speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the Prime Minister. Our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country, and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces about facilities in Ontario and Quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: Now it's Mr.Rayes's turn. alain rayes: Mr.Chair, why is it that employers from industry, businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the Canada summer jobs program still haven't received the money they're entitled to? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): We are ensuring that the Canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced. We have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: Mr.Rayes has the floor. Given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work, how is it that the organizations haven't yet received the money they need to hire students? As we know, there have been some problems with the CESB. ahmed hussen: Our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of COVID-19. We recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year. That is why we have introduced flexibilities in the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers. Last year, there was no crisis and, as of April, all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money. Right now, community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students, to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity. Chair, we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the COVID-19 pandemic. As such, the flexibilities we've introduced into the Canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers, including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to Canadians. These changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the Canada summer jobs program. alain rayes: The young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying. Right now, there is a $240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs, and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility. Why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly, to help the economy recover and to help young people? hon. We are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth, and that it gives them the experiences they need. It is adapted better for the COVID-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program. It's a great program, and we're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits. Last week, the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work. This morning, an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted, but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring. When is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work? hon. Chair, I join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it. That is why we've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills, especially in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow Canadians. By its own numbers, PSPC has had to cut the number of N95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet Canadian standards. Will the minister commit to making domestic production of PPE, including N95 masks, a priority? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers. We have a contract with Medicom in Montreal for the production of N95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: We'll go back to Ms. Chair, Novo Textiles, a company in my riding, has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of PPE in Canada. Additionally, it will soon be producing quality made-in-Canada N95 masks using Canadian designs and Canadian-made machinery. My constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now, not just talking about it. Is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity, or is it all talk and no action? hon. anita anand: In reality, we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories. Chair, to make sure Canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic. Chair, I'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these, but as I said, we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: We'll have to go back to Ms. Chair, we have surgical masks being produced right here at home, as well as abroad, being brought into Canada the chair: Back to Ms. Chair, as I said, we have a contract with General Motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: Ms. It's been over a month, the I Want To Help platform has no details yet about eligibility, levels of funding, or how to apply. When can students expect to start applying for the CSSG so they can receive their grants? Thank you. Chair, I'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible. By visiting Canada.ca/coronavirus, you'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed. The coronavirus will not win, and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow. Last week the President of the Treasury Board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that, as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information, he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability, even in times of crisis. Does she agree with the President of the Treasury Board's directive? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time. The Government of Canada, along with provincial and territorial governments, have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of COVID-19, and to protect the health and safety of federal employees. These measures have had an impact on institutions' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests, since most employees are now working from their homes. john brassard: Frankly, I'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities is in the House, but I will ask this question. steven guilbeault: Treasury Board Secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to Access to Information Act and Privacy Act requests and to provide published content the chair: We'll go back to Mr. john brassard: Can the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities tell us who Pierre Lavalle is? the chair: The honourable minister. He was the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank since the beginning, but let's be clear: Crown corporations work at arm's length from the government and must have the chair: We'll return to Mr. john brassard: Can I ask the minister how well she knows her file: 50%, 75% or 100%? hon. What I know is that Canadians want infrastructure built, they want it built across the country, in the member opposite's riding and in ridings across the country. john brassard: How much of the $35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far? hon. Duclos' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency, I'd like to ask the minister how much Mr. Our government follows the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act when it comes to employee compensation, but remuneration ranges are publicly available. I'd note that this information for the bank's CEOs has been in the public domain the chair: Mr. As I say, the information about salary ranges is publicly available, but personal HR the chair: Mr. Lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75% of his base salary, which was $510,000 to $600,000 per year; or in year two, which he was in, zero to 120% of his base salary. catherine mckenna: The rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board. Will the government commit to reopening the House of Commons with its full powers, with social distancing, on Monday, September 21? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, as my colleague knows, we're meeting here four days a week, with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day. It has no powers to introduce supply day motions, no powers to test government confidence, no powers to do the usual things that Parliament does. At times of crisis, the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested, and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government. 6, and in the last election, they rigged the leaders' debates in their favour, and now they have suspended Parliament. Instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members, will the government commit to the full re-opening of this House with all its powers with social distancing on Monday, September 21? hon. pablo rodriguez: Mr.Chair, the government's objective is always to try to resume Parliament as it was before. Today, we have to live with this pandemic, but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible. Over the past few weeks, we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of Parliament and they have never responded. Chair, the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars, previous pandemics and the October crisis in 1970. It is failing to be strong and clear on Hong Kong and, while the situation today is not that of decades past, it is clear that Canada in the past stood for the rights of people in Hong Kong. There are some 300,000 Canadians living there, and they are looking for the government's support. government has? When will it speak up against the Communist Party of China's United Front workers operating here in this country? When will it do like Australia did in calling for an international investigation of COVID-19, and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend Hong Kongers and the violation of the Sino-British treaty? the chair: The honourable minister. We all know that the one country, two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in Hong Konghas made Hong Kong what it is today, a beacon when it comes to trade and financing. Again, on May 28, with the United States, with the United Kingdom and with Australia, Canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by Beijing would undermine the very foundation, the very principles that have made Hong Kong so successful. We said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement. We will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of Hong Kong, and we will do it with our allies. What's the point of having an advance payment program if there's no payment? Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us when these delays will end? the chair: The honourable minister. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, I can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators. I can assure you that, under the circumstances, they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. However, did the minister approve a policy change on April 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic, yes or no? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program. To make things easier for our administrators, we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic. Who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic? Or did she just go ahead and do this on her own? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we are constantly working with the administrators of the program. We are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country. larry maguire: Livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high. I told the Minister of Agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem, and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support. When will the Minister of Agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, I would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to AgriStability. It is now $100million for pork and beef producers alone, not counting the $77.5million for food processors. larry maguire: Livestock producers in my riding and several across Canada are still waiting for the Minister of Agriculture's promise for an AgriRecovery program. When will the Minister of Agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her AgriRecovery promise? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, we have committed $50million to beef producers and $50million to pork producers through the AgriRecovery program. Here is how the program works: the federal government contributes up to60% and then the provinces implement it how they see fit. larry maguire: The funding announced by the Minister of Agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient, and what was promised has not been delivered. This has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight. marie-claude bibeau: Mr.Chair, once again, we have significantly increased the amounts available through AgriRecovery. dominic leblanc: Mr.Chair, we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way. In some sectors, such as tourism, fishery, hotels and restaurants, we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly. Given that the CERB lasts 16weeks, they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing. Chair, we moved very quickly at the early onset of the COVID-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs, who were laid off, or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the Canada emergency response benefit. Chair, the workers that the honourable member identified, including those who were not eligible for the EI, were also covered by the Canada emergency response benefit. We recognized the urgency of the situation, which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the Canada emergency response benefit. louise chabot: Mr.Chair, are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times? The answer is simple. Can you do anything about it? Can I walk out of the House today and tell all those people that the CERB is going to be extended? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the honourable member for her question. Of course, we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position. People are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that, with a responsible reopening of the economy, we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people. the chair: We are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health. While we have a few seconds, I would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair, not directly to the ministers. Today, June 1, under the auspices of the Food and Agriculture Organization, we celebrate World Milk Day. World Milk Day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food, its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition; and to celebrate the dairy sector, from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace. Canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that, under supply management, provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers. Even under supply management though, dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic. Chair, to acknowledge World Milk Day, I'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk, but we can't do that. On the other hand, I must ask the Minister of Agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate World Milk Day next year with more vim and vigour. Today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country, caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality. The dairy sector in Canada is made up of more than 220,000 Canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us. While our society lives through unprecedented changes, the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system. It is why we increased by $200 million the borrowing capacity of the Canadian Dairy Commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs, giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate. Over the past few years, we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with Europe and Asia. Chair, last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the Minneapolis police. George Floyd's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police. Since his death, solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the United States and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people. I wish I could say we are, but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border. The same protests taking place in New York, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Berlin, Paris and London are also taking place in our own backyard. In cities like Montreal and Toronto, thousands of people have already taken to the streets, not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism. We don't have to wait for pain, suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act. As Canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better, can the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in Canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black Canadians? the acting chair (mr. If we as Canadians truly desire an inclusive Canada, every single one of us must step up, be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces, communities and public spaces safer. The open, transparent, merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting Canadians. We recognize the UN International Decade for People of African Descent; the applications for capacity building in black Canadian communities are being assessed; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for Canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems, including advancement opportunities; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence. Although our government is moving in the right decision, there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies, as partners. Chair, workers' unions, business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to COVID-19. For years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy, but has failed to deliver. Will this government fix the law before more Canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions? the acting chair (mr. I'd like to thank the member for Hamilton Mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file. I remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of Bills C-525 and C-377, which were anti-union legislation. Chair, the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and won't protect workers' and pensioners' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits. The government can protect severance, termination pay, pensions and benefits from corporate theft, but will they do it, yes or no? the acting chair (mr. Chair, we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019, including that the process for the CCAA be more open and transparent. One thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses, and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners. Will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers' and pensioners' rights? the acting chair (mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): Thank you very much, Mr. Twice, following negotiations with the NDP, the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities. I have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors, for instance, the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance, and it hasn't come. Why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now? I want to know the reason why this hasn't been announced yet. We're moving forward with the Canada emergency student benefit, which will provide $2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities. We have done a lot, but we will continue to do more, and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities. Their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic. When are they going to get around to it? Why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have? the acting chair (mr. Chair, that is precisely why we are listening closely to the COVID-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice. According to La Presse, federal cabinet ministers Steven Guilbeault , Catherine McKenna and Jonathan Wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift. True to form, this cabal around the Prime Minister has declared let's not let a good crisis go to waste. Can the Prime Minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer Canada's economy post COVID? the acting chair (mr. As we support Canadians through this time, we will also ensure our long-term economic, environmental and physical well-being. Our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable, prosperous future for our kids and grandkids. Just like science is guiding us in our response to COVID-19, science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change. greg mclean: The task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks, notably eight weeks when Parliament is, by this government's design, absent. Can the Prime Minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, our most urgent priority with respect to COVID-19 is the health and safety of Canadians. While supporting Canadians during this period, we must also ensure our economic, environmental and physical well-being in the long term. Our government remains committed to building a stronger, more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children. greg mclean: The task force is a who's who of academics and bureaucrats, but surprisingly, includes no one from the productive part of the Canadian economy. The task force is reviewing work produced by Smart Prosperity, a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government's own Canadian Institute for Climate Choices. How many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, our priority right now is the health and safety of Canadians. Just as science guides us in our response to COVID-19, it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change. Our priority is to support Canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental, economic and physical well-being in the long term. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but can the Prime Minister confirm if this is the same Gerald Butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force Canada's then justice minister into breaking the law? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, since the beginning of this crisis, our priority has been to support Canadians and their health and safety. We will continue to do so, because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting Canadians. mona fortier: Once again, Mr.Chair, it is important to talk to Canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first. Chair, is this the same Gerald Butts who, in his role as the principal secretary in the office of Ontario's then premier, advanced policies that now saddle Ontarians with the highest energy costs in North America? Is this is the same Gerald Butts who weighed down Ontario with the world's highest subnational debt burden, all for the benefit of new green jobs that, notably, have never arrived? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, for the past two and a half months, we have been supporting Canadians. chris d'entremont: Yesterday, the Minister responsible for tourism, ACOA and official languages was happy to close our national Tourism Week by announcing investments of $70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across Canada. Southern Ontario received $30 million, northern Ontario received $7 million and western Canada received $3.5 million. Knowing that we just had an announcement from the Minister of Transport that there will be no cruise ships in Atlantic Canada or anywhere in Canada this year, resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses, where is the program for Atlantic Canada? hon. I know he's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in Atlantic Canada, so I want to reassure him. Rather than doing marketing internationally, we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country, including in Atlantic Canada, to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local. chris d'entremont: That would be all great if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic and you can't even cross the Nova Scotia-New Brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks. In Saint John, New Brunswick, 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community. Prince Edward Island, which was expected to have a record attendance year, will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers, and $60 million to the province's economy will be lost. Chair, my question to the minister is this: Who is ACOA going to be working with, and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year? hon. It is a bit like the canary in the coal mine; it was the first impacted, and definitely it is still impacted. Again, recently I had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across Atlantic Canada, including Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador for the tourism sector. They wanted to have access to it until later in the summer, and it has been extended to the end of August. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, like the minister, last week, I spoke with Simon-Pierre Poulin, the director of Le Franco newspaper in Alberta, about the Sauvons Saint-Jean movement. He asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though Parliament is sitting in a different configuration. Unfortunately, I had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake Parliament. The Liberal government made a commitment to modernize the Official Languages Act in the first six months of its mandate. mlanie joly: Mr.Chair, it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that, when it comes to language rights, we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved. I had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in Alberta late Friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): Mr.Chair, some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the COVID-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the CERB. Today, I would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the CERB after October3. Chair, we ensured that those who switched over to the Canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it, whether they were EI eligible or not. We are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic. richard martel: According to a survey conducted by the Universit du Qubec Trois-Rivires' research institute on small and medium size businesses, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of COVID-19. In fact, in our region, the tourism industry generates more than $300million in economic activity, including $58million for the cruise industry alone. mlanie joly: Mr.Chair, it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected. We are also providing the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance, as well as the $40,000loans from the Canada emergency business account. I am having good talks with various stakeholders in Quebec, including Martin Soucy from the Alliance de l'industrie touristique du Qubec. richard martel: Mr.Chair, the tourism industry in the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders. Overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year, even though they will have to pay their bills every month. We really want to be able to reach these small businesses, of which there are many in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean, in Quebec and across the country. That is why the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have committed an additional $1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks. We need to respond now, and I will have more to say about it in the next few days. richard martel: Mr.Chair, I was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage. When I spoke with the blueberry growers in my area, they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them. Chair, we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the Canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it, including more businesses, as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program. richard martel: Mr.Chair, on May19, the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account. Chair, small businesses are the heart of all of our communities, and we've been working really hard to help them. On Tuesday, May 26, she gained a new resident when Brinnley Lisette Huby was born to parents Adam and Carina Huby. Carina is my daughter, and that makes Brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest Canadian. Dave Epp: Minister Jordan, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund, while you deny its competitor, our Ontario fisheries that fish on the Great Lakes, the similar right to apply. The Ontario inland fishers and the people in Ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies. We're making sure that we're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries. dave epp: Minister, will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund? hon. Chair, we're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund. We're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it. dave epp: According to Stats Canada, before my granddaughter turns one year old, her share of the federal debt will be over $39,000. What is Minister Morneau's fiscal plan for Canada so that the interest on this debt doesn't cripple Canada with higher taxes? hon. In that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. dave epp: Minister, when can Parliament, or this semblance of it, see that plan for economic prosperity? the acting chair (mr. We've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving Canadians an understanding of the investments that we're making through this pandemic. Chair, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations, like my granddaughter, will have to pay for it. Chair, coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the G7 countries is a function of our economy that's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of Canadians. dave epp: What is the budget for stopping illegal American guns from getting through our borders? hon. I can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border. dave epp: What's the budget, then, to fight government-trained and licensed Canadians in the court challenge that's now been triggered? the acting chair (mr. dave epp: What is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council? hon. Chair, I don't have the answer to that question, but obviously the government will defend its position. Chair, COVID-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks, we're in a storm. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities says they need $10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding, so do municipalities slash services, do they raise taxes, or will we be there for the municipalities? hon. chrystia freeland: Our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times, and particularly today, as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy. That is why the Prime Minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund. Many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients, as the government urged them to do. Thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently. Will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive? hon. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for the question, which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic. We know that the programs we've put forward, programs like the emergency business account, are supporting businesses, but the emergency rent approach, on which we've worked together with provinces, can also help significantly. Of course, the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that I've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months. Chair, this week marks the 31st anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in Hong Kong. In spite of this knowledge, the Harper Conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with China in 2012, the Canada-China FIPA. This Conservative deal gave Chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system. In the years since the FIPA was signed, with no vote in Parliament, Chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing Canadian assets and resources. These corporations can seek financial compensation from Canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking. Can the government tell us whether any of these Chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the FIPA to seek financial compensation from Canadian taxpayers? hon. franois-philippe champagne: As I'm sure the member will know, Canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in Hong Kong. As he knows, we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of Hong Kong. We know that the one country, two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of Hong Kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made Hong Kong a place where people want to do business, commerce and trade. I would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom. We have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by Beijing, if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally, would undermine the bedrock of what has made Hong Kong, and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. paul manly: That was a trick question, because this anti-democratic agreement states that we wouldn't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was, in fact, an investor-state dispute. Unlike NAFTA, which had a six-month period for renegotiation, the Harper Conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the FIPA and this anti-democratic agreement. Will the government re-engage the special committee on Canada-China relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this Conservative sellout of Canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. Canada will always pursue trade in the interest of Canadians, and we are in the process of reviewing our FIPA agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for Canadians to trade, with the interests of Canadians always top of mind. Will the government work with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets, including communities facing food insecurity now? hon. Chair, we've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector. One of the things we're doing primarily is the harvesters' benefit, which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through. We're also changing EI so they can now qualify for their EI benefits based on previous seasons, not this one, recognizing they're going to face challenges this year. We are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs. This government has sat by while the Canadian Transportation Agency issued a statement to back up the airlines' appalling actions. What is this government doing to fix this? Why aren't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for Canadians? hon. Chair, I certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of Canadians who would have preferred a refund. At the same time, at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets, it would have a devastating effect on the airlines. That is why the Canadian Transportation Agency, which is an independent body, recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years. It is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic, we must still have an airline industry in this country. Chair, in Victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit, but now people are particularly vulnerable to COVID-19. If you don't have a place to live, you don't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home. As part of the recovery, will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness? hon. Chair, very early in the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, our government provided $157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless Canadians. While the province has stepped up, it cost them $18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in Victoria. The $157.5 million, I must note, was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of Canada's most vulnerable. We are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. This government's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households, according to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. My question is simple: Coming out of the pandemic in the coming months, is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need, yes or no? hon. Regardless of the COVID-19 pandemic, the last time I checked, we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable. Does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer? If so, how will it do so? The government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery. Every day, we announce measures, of course, but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments. gabriel ste-marie: In my opinion, Mr.Chair, it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments; it is very important. As I said, when the situation is a little more stable, we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update. gabriel ste-marie: Once again, Mr.Chair, when the situation is more stable, it will be too late to do an economic update; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind. Speaking of the recovery, the Parliamentary Budget Officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan. Mr.Giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas, and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties' views. member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do, and to listen to people's ideas and opinions, not only in Parliament, but also from our society. Of course, with our approach, we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector. It would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery. At this time, it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy. Obviously, by gathering more information in Phase3, we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery. I understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time. Can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber? If not, will it be before or after that? hon. bill morneau: We continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery, and we are also listening to our colleagues in Parliament, of course. We were shocked to hear that his own Minister of Digital Government used WeChat, a Chinese social media site, to raise funds to sue a Global News reporterfor what? It was for daring to expose China's attempt to hoard PPE during the COVID crisis. Is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against Canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in China, and will the Prime Minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister? hon. As many members on all sides of the House know, WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the Chinese-Canadian community. In this case, the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group. Chair, Canadians have no reason to trust the Prime Minister on anything to do with China, especially when it comes to trade policy. Two and a half years ago, the Prime Minister travelled to China to commence free trade negotiations, and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment. Still the Prime Minister continues to cozy up to the Chinese regime, refusing to ban Huawei from our 5G network or to speak out convincingly against China's oppression in Hong Kong. Can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the Prime Minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with China about a free trade agreement? A simple yes or no will do. Any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of Canadians first. ed fast: I think Canadians will see that the minister didn't even answer a simple yes-or-no question, so I'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question. Is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with China, yes or no? hon. Chair, we will always do our work, including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work, with the interests of Canadians and Canadian businesses as our absolute top priority. Will the minister now assure Canadians that she and the Prime Minister's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with China, yes or no? hon. mary ng: Any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of Canadians and Canadian businesses. Will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like China is in Canada's best interests? hon. Free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law. In fact, China repeatedly flouts international trade rules, illegally dumps underpriced goods into Canada, and prevents Canadian canola, beef and pork from entering China. Will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with China, yes or no? hon. mary ng: We are not in discussions with China on a free trade agreement, and as my colleagues, including the Prime Minister and the foreign minister, have said many times in this House and outside of this House, our priority continues to be the immediate release of Canadians detained in China. bruce stanton): This will conclude today's sitting of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic

The minister emphasized the importance of transparency in investments and assured that the government would provide regular updates on the figures. They also promised that Canada's economy would recover and there would be no tax increases to address the deficit. In response, the opposition party demanded regular updates on the economy. Despite the pandemic, the government aimed to develop a comprehensive plan once the situation stabilized. The government's strong fiscal position and low debt among G7 countries allowed for investments on behalf of Canadians, and they pledged to maintain this approach. Furthermore, the minister assured that there would be no higher taxes.

What policy is the government planning to implement to address the deficit and manage the federal debt?

grad b: Could I hit hit F - seven to do that ? on the Robert ? grad a: I 'm grad b: Oh , the remote will do it OK . grad b: Cuz I 'm already up there ? grad a: in control here . grad b: So , we were Ah ! grad c: Johno , where are you ? grad b: OK . grad c: Should you go back to the first one ? grad b: Do I wanna go back to the first one ? grad c: Well grad b: OK . grad d: I 'm sorry I grad c: Well , just to grad b: OK . It 's basically talks about It just refers to the fact that one of main things we had to do was to decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were , grad d: I can read ! I 'm kidding . grad a: But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to click on the little light bulb . grad b: Although I 've I 've never I don't know what the light bulb is for . grad a: Do you wanna try ? grad d: Ach u grad b: I 'd prefer not to . Is that the idea ? grad a: Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ? grad d: OK . grad b: Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program grad a: Oh ! OK . grad b: You want me to Wait , what do you want me to do ? grad c: Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't doesn't appear ? grad a: No , It 's OK . grad b: Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up grad c: OK , fine . grad b: So then the features we decided or we decided we were talked about , right ? the the prosody , the discourse , verb choice . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line for space . " Nice walls " which we can look up because if you 're gonna get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to " business person " , " tourist " , or " unknown " , the time of day , and " open to suggestions " , isn't actually a feature . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that , in this particular domain you said be i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the that landmark - iness cor is correlated with grad b: Oh grad c: No . grad b: I either could put " nice walls " on its own line or " open to suggestions " off the slide . grad c: Like you could have a p grad d: And and By " nice " you mean grad c: You Like you could have a post office with you know , nice murals or something . grad b: Or one time I was at this grad d: So " nice walls " is a stand in for like architecturally it , significant grad b: But see the thing is , if it 's grad c: Architecturally appealing from the outside . grad b: Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from Like you m might be able to " Vista " it , grad a: grad b: Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something . grad b: But if you looked at it real close , you could see the the in intricacy of the of the walls . grad a: The grad d: Something you want to inspect at close range because it 's interesting . grad b: Robert ? grad a: Well there there is a term that 's often used . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as " landmark - iness " . There 's landmark for , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be Wouldn't couldn't they also be They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like non - tourist - y landmarks and grad a: Or it can be als grad b: direct navigational grad d: They 're not mutually exclusive ? grad b: Yeah . grad b: OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , because our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . grad b: And , so we Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . grad c: Well usually , you know , N If you have N features , then it 's two to the N or exponential in N . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was we have the features that we 've drawn from the communication of some Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like " I 'm " the the abstract idea being " I am a tourist I want to go to this place . " Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and what they 've said previously and whatnot . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist or whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . So then the hidden variables hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to like or th grad c: Want to do Vista , grad b: Right . grad c: right ? Because if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry . grad b: Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a like a navigational point to go to another place . right now it 's still kind of in a toy version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of or Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up . " Verb used " is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a Vista verb . grad c: Yeah , that one needs a lot of grad d: And are those mutually exclusive sets ? grad b: No . grad c: But that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter , grad d: Got it . grad c: so we decided that for the purposes of this it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs . Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am not that are not coming to my mind right now . grad c: OK , so Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . The " closed " is also not directly extracted I guess , from the grad b: Well i it 's grad c: . grad d: From the utterance ? grad b: it 's so it sort of is grad c: Actually , no , wait . grad b: because it 's because have the the time of day grad c: It is . grad c: Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all sort of you know probabilistically depends on the other things . So we haven't , managed Like we don't have nodes for " discourse " and " parse " , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net . grad c: But The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse , grad d: grad d: So some of the the top row of things What 's what 's " Disc admission fee " ? grad c: whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like " Can I get to this place ? " grad d: Oh . So that 's like a huge clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than to Tango or Vista , grad d: - huh . grad b: There were there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but you know , we didn't have grad d: So there are certain cues that are very strong either lexical or topic - based , concept cues grad b: From the discourse that Yeah . And then in that second row or whatever that row of Time of Day through that So all of those Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of either world knowledge or situational things . grad d: " Unmark @ @ Time of Day " grad c: Yeah , I m grad a: Yeah . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we we all , agree on what what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe what changes we grad b: Yeah , th OK . so one thing I I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus the " admission fee " thing set up . So one thing that we were thinking was by doing the layers like this , we kept things from directly affecting the mode beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the " admission fee " going directly to the mode pointing at " Enter " , grad a: grad b: right ? Versus pointing to just at " tourist " , grad d: grad b: But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted to point at the middle and then down . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible grad b: Right . grad c: Disc - " admission fee " is a binary thing , " time of day " is like morning , afternoon , night . grad b: That 's how we have it currently set up , grad a: Yep . grad b: but it could be , you know , based upon hour grad c: Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but , we are just using the particular part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess . grad c: So Right , grad d: Right ? grad c: so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed . grad a: The the So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ? grad c: and grad a: Or also unknown ? grad b: Or un unknown , grad a: OK . Unknown , right ? grad d: So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist , grad c: Which is th Which one ? grad d: but OK . so the the context being , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , " are you " the ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ? grad c: Yeah , it does . So then you just have some probabilities over grad c: Everything is probablistic , and There 's always grad d: OK . " Verb used " is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs . grad c: " nice walls " is binary , " closed " is binary " final destination " , again Yeah , all those are binary I guess . grad c: Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node . Right ? grad c: Which things ? grad a: Nice walls ? grad b: Wi grad d: grad b: It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted . grad a: So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ? grad c: Well , we To do that we would add another value for that . grad c: And that would require s updating the probability distribution for " mode " as well . grad d: So , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases grad a: Yeah , yeah . grad d: but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would that would help you Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that that would determine grad c: Right . grad a: well the the sort of the landmark is is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ? grad d: Usually . I I don't know if that 's always the case I I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . grad a: that 's always warping on something some entity , grad d: grad a: and maybe at this stage we will we do want to sort of get modifiers in there grad b: . grad a: because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not grad b: I want to get to the church quickly , grad c: Yeah . Do we have anything else to say about this ? grad c: We can do a little demo . grad a: No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s grad c: We can do a demo in the sense that we can , just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference . grad c: So we can , you know , set some of the nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes . grad c: just I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee grad b: OK . grad c: and the place has nice walls grad b: I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan . grad d: it 's starting to grow on me grad b: And the time of day is night ? grad c: Yeah , no wait . grad b: One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this . grad c: So that is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing . grad c: And grad d: So slightly biased toward " Tango " ing grad c: Yeah . grad b: If it 's night time , they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice . The reason I say the demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we observed everything in favor of taking a tour , and it came up as " Tango " , right ? Over and over again . grad c: Like , we totally hand - tuned the probabilities , grad d: Yeah . We were like " , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this , grad d: OK . grad a: Yeah but it it grad d: Maybe the bias toward " Tango " ing was yours , then ? grad b: Yeah , grad c: Yeah . grad b: that 's that 's at grad c: It 's So we have to like fit the probabilities . grad d: So , the real case ? grad a: However you know , it The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . grad a: And grad b: We would actually I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden nodes , grad a: grad b: No , I think we should have exponentially more middle nodes than features we 've extracted . Whether you 're It 's whether It 's not grad d: And are th grad c: I think it 's more like " Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a " grad d: Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context switch . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , " I want to go , see the the the castle and , et cetera . " grad a: Is it grad b: Well the I kind of thought of " doing business " as more of running an errand type thing . grad a: So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and and and you need to go to the AT grad b: So i wi th grad d: OK . grad a: " How do I get to the bank ? " grad d: I see . grad c: And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you kinda thing . grad c: Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a I don't know , like in d Do we wanna have Like it 's grad d: Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node . grad c: If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly , says something about whether whether or not they 're tourists . grad c: So what 's interesting is when it 's not when it 's set to " unknown " . grad a: We - what set the they set the context to " unknown " ? grad d: OK . grad c: Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities . grad a: And if we now do leave everything else as is the results should be the same , grad b: Oops . grad c: Well no , because we Th - the way we set the probabilities might not have Yeah , it 's it 's an it 's an issue , right ? Like grad a: Pretty much the same ? grad c: Yeah , it is . So the issue is that in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then " unknown " as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable , grad d: Yeah . grad c: But We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually grad b: We were thi Yeah , grad a: grad b: We were th grad c: But I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . grad a: Why don't we Can we , How long would it take to to add another node on the observatory and , play around with it ? grad c: Another node on what ? grad b: well it depends on how many things it 's linked to . If we create something that for example would be So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but they can never be entered ? So for example s a statue . grad a: So maybe we wanna have " landmark " meaning now " enterable landmark " versus , something that 's simply just a vista point , for example . grad a: Yeah ? , a statue or grad c: So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's " enterable or not " . grad b: Also you know , didn't we have a size as one ? The size of the landmark . grad c: What ? grad b: Cuz if it 's grad c: . grad b: For some reason I had that OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away . grad c: So you want to have a a node for like whether or not it can be entered ? grad a: Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ? grad c: Yeah . grad a: accessibility or something , yeah ? " Is it Can it be entered ? " grad c: . In the sense that , you know , if it 's Tom the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . grad a: Yeah ? and And these are very observable sort of from the from the ontology sort of things . grad b: Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable or not ? grad a: y y If If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not al w you 're not usually not allowed to m grad d: It seems like it would for , determining whether they wanna go into it or not . grad b: Well I can see why grad d: Cuz they grad a: Let 's get this b clearer . grad b: Whether it 's a Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's actually has a door . grad a: This is sort of grad b: So Tom Cruise 's house is not a public building grad d: grad b: OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary to distinguish between whether something has a door and is not public . Or , if something It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a and it grad a: grad b: Or " not public " and " not a door " are equivalent things , grad a: Yeah . So we would have What does it mean , then , that we have to we have an object type statue . grad a: And then we have , for example , an object type , that 's a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah . - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth , grad b: Excellent . So I guess your question is so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Let Let 's do a Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , a " has door " property or ? grad b: OK . grad c: What would it , connect to ? Like , what would , it affect ? grad a: I think , it might affect Oh actually it 's it it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ? grad c: What I was thinking was if you had a like grad a: Oh it 's it affects th The " doing business " is certainly not . grad b: You could affect Theoretically you could affect " doing business " with " has door " . grad a: right ? grad c: Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like it just overwrites everything . Whew ! grad c: Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . grad b: This grad c: What would be nice if it is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . grad b: Oh wait , it might be Did we w Yes , that 's not good . grad a: Maybe you can read in ? grad c: Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ? grad d: Yes . Really I ha I 've I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so grad c: OK . grad c: Like , we looked at sort of a page that had like a bunch of grad d: Yeah . grad c: in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's grad d: grad c: What ? grad b: Maybe it did a little bit of learning , grad c: OK . grad a: What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code grad b: The c grad a: or do you actually never have to write any code there ? grad c: Yeah . grad b: Oh man , grad c: Like , there 's the grad b: I didn't n Is there an ampersand in DOS ? grad c: Nope . grad c: It 'll ask you what you what it wants what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess . grad c: That 's Oh ! grad b: Maybe it was just grad a: Oh . grad b: I like I like Word Pad because it has the the returns , grad a: Wordpad ? I grad b: the carriage returns on some of them . grad b: You know how they get " auto - fills " I guess , grad a: Mmm grad b: It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of grad a: grad b: It just that it 's grad c: But they 're not very friendly . grad b: Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on grad c: So you 'd have to like figure out Like you have to go and grad d: Right . grad c: it 's not grad b: We were doing it grad c: Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for entering probability distributions easily , something like like a little script . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably grad c: The other thing is it is in Java grad d: Yeah , it 's Yeah . grad b: Or grad a: Do you have the true source files or just the class ? grad b: I don't know if he actually grad c: Yeah . we do grad b: Does he grad c: I I saw directory called " source " , grad b: Oh . grad c: I think it might it might be simpler to just have a script that , you know It 's , like , friendly , grad d: The d the data tables . grad a: But if th if there is an XML file that or format that it can also read it just reads this , right ? When it starts . grad b: Yeah I know there is an I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . grad c: The JavaBayes guy ? So but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ? grad b: Well th you can either you ca or you can read both . grad b: Because Well at least the I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but . grad a: So you got more slides ? grad b: Do I have more slides ? yes , one more . E That 's maybe , I don't know If grad b: that 's future future work . grad b: And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't have something that doesn't work at all , then you have " What I learned " , as a slide . grad b: I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room . So this means grad b: Should I pull up the net again ? grad d: Yeah . grad d: So a more general thing than " discussed admission fee " , could be I I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse might be I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way , there might be other cues that , say , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes , I don't know if that might be grad a: I think we grad d: and and into that node would be various various things that that could have specifically come up . grad a: I think a a sort of general strategy here You know , this is this is excellent because it gets you thinking along these terms is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before . And maybe there are two So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , which has two has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some kind of , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is , a more general version of the actual phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards grad b: So instead of single node , for like , if they said the word " admission fee " grad d: Exactly . grad b: " admission fee " , or maybe , you know , " how much to enter " grad d: Yeah . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , it 's more for a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a in a in a route , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that where you want to pass it . ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this again points to " final destination " , " doing business " , " tourist hurry " and so forth . we have a whole region " in a e grad d: That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer . grad d: Right ? grad a: So e because at the end the more we add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . They ra may have there own hidden layer that points to some of the the real hidden layer , or the general hidden layer . grad a: And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . grad b: One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I more I look at this is that the I guess , the fact that the there 's a complete separation between the observed features and in the output . grad b: For instance if the discourse does grad d: What do you mean by that ? grad b: well for instance , the " discourse admission fee " node seems like it should point directly to the grad d: - huh . grad b: or increase the probability of " enter directly " versus " going there via tourist " . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door . And if it if you do it If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that like " So how much has it cost to enter ? " and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says " Yeah I want to see it . " Yeah ? meaning " It 's way out of my budget " grad b: There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ? grad a: nothing comes to mind . But i you know , i we can Something Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer is s if we , you know , still , based on that result is never going to enter that building . So the discourse refers to " admission fee " but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse . you have to have some notion of not just there 's a there 's change across several turns of discourse grad b: Right . grad d: so I don't know how if any of this was discussed but how i if it all this is going to interact with whatever general , other other discourse processing that might be happen . grad b: What sort of discourse processing is are the How much is built into SmartKom and grad a: It works like this . The first thing we get is that already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us " OK here we have something that somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is is is happening , and , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , o one of the most elaborate elaborate modules . It 's it 's actually the the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what wh who said what , which was what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , because you say " OK , how can I get to the castle ? " Oh , how how much is it ? " and " yeah I would like to g let 's do it " and so forth . So even without an a ana anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here . so whenever the , person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in " No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV " What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model discourse model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen grad b: . grad a: so it 's a it 's a rather huge huge thing but we can sort of It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and and the turn before that or you know how deep we want to search grad b: OK . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? but we should try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty pretty you know concise and Anyway . grad d: So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the use of " admission fee discussion " as a cue for entry , is thinking about the plans that various people might have . This person is , finding out information about this thing in order to go in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place in order to do business . , because then anything that 's a cue for one of the steps would be slight evidence for that overall plan . They 're in in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , " OK , wha what plans is this a consistent with ? " and then get s some more information and then you see " here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into " . grad d: I I don't know how you know you 'd have to figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that . grad a: You know ? and it it 's fifty steps , grad d: grad a: huh ? just for buying a ticket at a ticket counter , you know , and and maybe that 's helpful to look at it to look at those . W when we talked we had the example , you know , of you being a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than " New York " , huh ? inferring everything from the context . , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ? grad d: Mmm . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ? grad b: I think grad a: Is that possible ? grad b: One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago , grad a: grad d: The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ? grad b: Yeah but I don't know if it 's still grad d: I think it has to exist somewhere . grad a: Well it never went all the way , right ? you always had to change trains at Omaha , grad d: Well most of the way . grad a: right ? One track ended there and the other one started at five meters away from that grad d: . grad a: yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ? grad d: I have . grad c: What ? Why ? grad b: I just They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak . grad a: But you know , I don't know whether it 's which ones are safer , you know , statistically . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's way better grad a: yeah I used Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . grad a: ? grad c: I I want to see what it does with " landmark - iness " . grad d: So by the way tha that structure that Robert drew on the board was like more , cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then some of the things we 're talking about here are more you know , we mentioned maybe if they talk about , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based . grad d: So I I don't know if there There 's obviously some m more than one way of organizing the variables into something grad a: I think that What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions . grad a: One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business , grad d: grad a: and and less in a hurry when you 're a tourist tourists may have never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so maybe what what what happened what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer , grad d: grad a: and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based . So , I suggest w to for to proceed with this in in the sense that maybe throughout this week the three of us will will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some some toy a observable " nodes " is that what th grad b: Refined y re just refine the grad a: What 's the technical term ? grad c: OK . For which ? grad a: For the nodes that are observable ? The " outer layer " ? grad c: Just observable nodes , grad b: The features , grad c: evidence nodes ? grad b: I don't know , whatever you grad a: Feature ma make up some features for those Identify four regions , grad c: Yeah . grad a: maybe make up some features for each region and and , and middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space grad c: Yeah . grad c: Yeah , this is totally like The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . but , they 're even like like , close to the end we were like , you know we were like really ad - hoc . grad c: Right ? Cuz if it 's like , If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like like a hundred and forty four or something possible things numbers to enter , grad d: And That 's terrible . grad b: Some of them are completely absurd too , like they want to enter , but it 's closed , grad d: That 's Well grad b: it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like grad c: Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like come here just to rob the museum or something to that effect . grad d: In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , and see appropriate action . Yeah , another thing to do , is also to , I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . grad d: Sorry , Wednesday , grad b: Who 's talking on Wednesday ? grad c: Maybe we can ask him about it . grad b: I haven't J Jerry never sent out a sent out an email , did he , ever ? grad c: No . grad d: Ben ? grad a: Ben , then , grad d: I think it 's Ben actually , grad a: Ben . I actually , have , also we can , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will grad b: Right . grad b: Do you want to trade ? grad a: no I I actually made a mistake because it it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot grad d: Oh , no . grad a: And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network . grad b: grad a: So we 'll do that t maybe grad c: But . But once you start sart start SmartKom you can be on You don't have to be on a network anymore . grad b: Why does SmartKom need a network ? grad a: it looks up some stuff that , you know , is is that is in the written by the operating system only if it if you get a DHCP request , so it you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ? grad b: Ah . grad a: And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth . grad a: She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . Jerry however suggested that we should have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data . grad c: So who would be the subject of this trial run ? grad a: Pardon me ? grad c: Who Will there be a Is one Is you one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you grad a: Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , which I think might be even better than us guys . grad a: If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of jump in . grad c: Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , see if they 're you know good . that 's what we wanna check , right ? grad a: grad d: Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject . grad c: Isn't that what it is ? grad d: It 's grad a: yes w we we would like to test the wizard , but you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic grad c: I guess that would be reasonable . grad d: I 'm sure if we , You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get other people around who don't know anything , if we want another subject . So , is it a experimental setup for the , data collection totally ready determined ? grad b: I like that . grad a: I think it 's it 's it 's experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room . grad a: But in terms of specifying the scenario , we 've gotten a little further grad d: grad a: but we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the ultimate sort of definition probe . So so if if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and getting all the details completely figured out . So the ideal task , will have whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net will af affect Like we wanna we wanna be able to collect as much of the variables that are needed for that , grad a: Mmm - yea - some . grad d: right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know . grad a: Bu - e e e I 'm even This this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario . So we wanted just to collect data , to get that that that elicits more , that elicits richer language . grad a: And we actually did not want to constrain it too much , grad d: And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with whatever engine we we come up with . So this this this is a parallel track , you know , there they hopefully meet , grad d: OK . grad a: but since grad d: It could it could be used for not just this task . grad a: It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being grad d: So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since Johno can't stop Tango - ing , we may actually include , you know , those those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with with sort of explicit grad d: grad a: not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter , grad d: grad a: and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture , grad d: grad a: Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . grad b: So is this the official end of the meeting now ? grad c: Yep . grad c: So what 's " Economics , the fallacy " ? grad a: Ma grad b: I just randomly label things . grad c: Oh , really ? grad a: Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue

Experiments for collecting new data will begin soon, as the team has already hired someone to recruit subjects and assist with running the experiments. Additionally, the design of the experiments has made significant progress.

Summarize the discussion about the hiring process.

project manager: and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first marketing: No y you do the minutes first , or ? project manager: What ? marketing: No ? project manager: I I think I will let our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan . The second concept is a fancy controller , so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g industrial designer: . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Yeah , it's very , you know project manager: It's very big , user interface: if you're project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . user interface: so maybe we should use technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and gesture recognition . project manager: I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition , user interface: Yeah . project manager: but as the expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ? user interface: Yeah , so project manager: Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ? user interface: Y marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ? user interface: I think some time it's very convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button . user interface: For example , if you cannot find your controller , you can just just just speak something such as , yeah , one two . project manager: I industrial designer: Oh yeah , that's a good that's a good point , so . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah but how how is how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ? project manager: Broken arm ? user interface: For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very marketing: Okay . project manager: Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: If you have one brother and one sister marketing: Yeah project manager: and they want to watch their favourite T_V_ programme , marketing: Yeah , but the project manager: so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time , industrial designer: Yeah but Yeah user interface: Yeah , it's very interesting . industrial designer: but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , marketing: I don't think it project manager: but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you . marketing: Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff . Even you h you have the controller , I can I can say channel three , industrial designer: It's it's marketing: No . user interface: so it's c come to channel three , marketing: No , but this is disadvant disadvantage . user interface: I don't have to project manager: Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage . industrial designer: And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to project manager: Yeah , but one other question . marketing: if you if if you use the basic user interface: No no we just have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field . project manager: So you think it won't cost an Not a lot for us ? Or ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's because this technology is for limited wor or limited wor lexical recognition , it's very project manager: Yeah , but user interface: it's yeah . It's marketing: But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . industrial designer: Well y y you have also the language problem , user interface: No it's Even for the f because the the vocabulary the industrial designer: you know when you project manager: project manager: Yeah , but there is one problem that Baba talked about is the international industrial designer: Yeah . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Yeah , the key , the key the key of our the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some adaptation marketing: Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or industrial designer: Yeah but you know . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . industrial designer: It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe project manager: okay . user interface: Yeah , project manager: And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ? user interface: it's industrial designer: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: Yeah , but how will you user interface: So industrial designer: Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one . industrial designer: because the for example for Se user interface: Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to industrial designer: Oh really ? That's project manager: Oh . marketing: but then w Yeah , industrial designer: Comple user interface: No , it's not so complex . marketing: we have to take care of the twelve Euros project manager: And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ? marketing: problem . project manager: And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ? user interface: No no no it's not I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , but we're marketing: No , but then it's it's like this project manager: here it's an object . project manager: Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . user interface: Yeah yeah just you just put the controller here , then you industrial designer: I if you say one , he switch to channel , user interface: you use your command project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: No no it's n y if you lose it industrial designer: So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one . project manager: Okay you so you can build a kind of black box industrial designer: Devic project manager: and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice . Or is it do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ? user interface: think it we should give the flexibility to the user and we think marketing: Okay , so you project manager: Yeah , user interface: yeah . user interface: No , project manager: And maybe it will be quite user interface: that's quite inter quite attractive . industrial designer: But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so although y y user interface: Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . marketing: What ? project manager: Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ? marketing: If if , I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition . industrial designer: Yeah , but marketing: But if if if it like doubles industrial designer: I think he need a control that is very reliable , marketing: no one would would be interested . project manager: So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . user interface: project manager: Just want to have something controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ? user interface: Yeah but if if you stick to stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ? industrial designer: Yeah . No , user interface: Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that marketing: industrial designer: It's not really the we marketing: Y industrial designer: we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so or something like that . But I think a user need user interface: Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function , marketing: No , user interface: but marketing: but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something , industrial designer: Don't have a the the Yeah user interface: Okay . user interface: But it's not the only the problem only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ . industrial designer: Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if marketing: Cause for example yeah . user interface: Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller , marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , but we want so user interface: but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition . user interface: the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our from other products . project manager: Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone . industrial designer: And for all the person of the family maybe , user interface: Yeah , project manager: You don't need to tune it . user interface: Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ? project manager: Yeah , why not ? If it's marketing: for example the goo y industrial designer: Because you have new marketing: you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller . marketing: I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . marketing: so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot . marketing: thi this , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition user interface: The then nn marketing: or user interface: no . marketing: if he has something that works fine and is really fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use . user interface: But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller . marketing: See user interface: That's the same marketing: That's the problem , user interface: yeah . , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever . marketing: But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product user interface: Yeah . project manager: Two ? industrial designer: Yeah , participant two project manager: Working ? industrial designer: Yeah , working design , user interface: industrial designer: so . marketing: industrial designer: So I think project manager: I can industrial designer: Can you go to the next one ? I it's not this one . industrial designer: It's oth the oth so I marketing: industrial designer: It's the working design . project manager: It's okay industrial designer: So this yeah so this is the described use project manager: industrial designer: What ? Are you inst project manager: I think there's something wrong with your user interface: It did didn't r receive it . project manager: It seems that we have a problem with the marketing: I dunno if you remember what you had to say or industrial designer: I can say it to you without . project manager: Yeah , so user interface: Yeah , maybe we can first come to project manager: No , I think it will be more interesting to start with user interface: to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides , marketing: I think it's more interesting what he says , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: exac marketing: project manager: You will had s some more information in industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with user interface: project manager: Okay , never mind . industrial designer: so It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r user interface: Okay . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside user interface: Okay . So I in fact the the f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use , project manager: industrial designer: so will it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . industrial designer: so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night , project manager: industrial designer: And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example d solar energy alimentation user interface: -huh . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come user interface: industrial designer: and so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example . project manager: Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers industrial designer: Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more , industrial designer: project manager: no ? industrial designer: Alrigh In fact , having them both will if we want to have battery , regular battery and and the solar energy battery it could be it'll it will add a little bit of the price , project manager: So . project manager: And what tha what about the materials ? industrial designer: And the materials , it depends for example you if you have a wooden material it can be more the plastic material is more common project manager: Impersonal , industrial designer: it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class , project manager: Yeah . marketing: Special for industrial designer: or you know , you can have some project manager: Yeah , and i if you we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood . industrial designer: Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood user interface: industrial designer: And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module . project manager: Yeah , we want something easy to use and so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough . project manager: And you think that we will be industrial designer: Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: project manager: And what about the buttons ? industrial designer: I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know lighted buttons because , you know , it's I don't know yeah , in the dark , it's fashion project manager: No it's fashion , yeah . industrial designer: and it's related to how beautiful it is or if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right . industrial designer: I think a touch screen will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so . , I think so , just Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next . project manager: marketing: So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and i i it sounds good technically user interface: . marketing: but it's it's not what they want and So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on . Wha what we really see this year is that everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables , industrial designer: Ah yes . marketing: okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing . And then if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . marketing: So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion from Milan and Paris industrial designer: And fruit and vegetables yeah . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch , industrial designer: Spongy 'Kay . industrial designer: Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ? marketing: Yeah thi this is this would be like industrial designer: Pla S marketing: plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like industrial designer: Very stuff Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . marketing: Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion . So , as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and with battery would be something interesting , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be enough to have something working well . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: No wood but Plastic ? marketing: Maybe not no wood , but ma maybe not the part you touching you know . industrial designer: Would some user interface: Pla project manager: Maybe you industrial designer: I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . marketing: But still y project manager: Th The feeling is natural , industrial designer: Yeah , it's natural marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol marketing: Yeah , it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view . marketing: But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: and what about the user interface concept ? industrial designer: Google and project manager: Google and fancy ? industrial designer: and fancy , f how about the the voice ? And project manager: Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this . industrial designer: maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested user interface: yes . industrial designer: But and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually , project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: so . industrial designer: But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so . project manager: So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller , marketing: I dunno . project manager: maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood . project manager: Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add . And pf what can we think a supplement to marketing: What interface ? project manager: Yeah , for the interface something added value . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of project manager: With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes so we'll you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the simple vocal commands recognition . project manager: you will have to work more , Baba , on the spongy way to to add spongy touch to the buttons industrial designer: expensive buttons Yeah , to make some new project manager: and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control . project manager: And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and the colour of the the society will be really it will be seen in the remote control . project manager: So you will have Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us modelling a cl a clay remote control , user interface: Yeah . Yep project manager: And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach <doc-sep>project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: - So , ready ? user interface: 'Kay marketing: No not really Just project manager: marketing: Crap . user interface: marketing: 'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ? project manager: So , we are user interface: Where ? marketing: user interface: It's here . project manager: So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan , user interface: Okay . project manager: So we'll have to evaluate the your proposed remote control , user interface: 'Kay . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: And in case if we're we all agree on the fabrica of building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the production . industrial designer: project manager: So maybe I will let the our two designers talk about so their user interface: I have slides . project manager: user interface: It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design . project manager: Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but user interface: Next a mo marketing: Yeah . In the traditional key traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel . this sta this triangle base is very stable , so so it's it's it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so project manager: Everything's mushroom . industrial designer: Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have you know like lemon shape , you know , centre is yellow and t d user interface: Yeah project manager: Okay . user interface: Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . project manager: industrial designer: I don't think I hope nobody will eat it You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the the in project manager: Oh . Inspira inspiration is industrial designer: And inspired colour project manager: industrial designer: and and very sophisticated material , so . project manager: industrial designer: So what we w what I can add is that , you know he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: it is a low level chip , and user interface: So we cut it to see . industrial designer: You know wi the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i user interface: Okay . Here ? project manager: And where is the solar solar cell ? user interface: marketing: But we say we sa we said solar . project manager: Where is the solar cell ? industrial designer: In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and project manager: Oh . Do you think it won't be It won't cris increase the price ? user interface: Okay marketing: industrial designer: I don't think so , project manager: Okay , we'll see after . So project manager: so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we had three keys key points to for this remote control design , user interface: marketing: and first one was project manager: marketing: So w we'll try to judge this feature with a one to seven scale , one being no , I think . marketing: Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ? user interface: Yeah , I think so . user interface: Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour marketing: I'll agree it's unique , but is it really industrial designer: Is it really fancy ? user interface: So it depend on how d do you define fancy . user interface: industrial designer: But it's you have the lemon aspect of this th this this thing . user interface: project manager: Maybe if you change if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that industrial designer: Do Don't do that , please . marketing: I dunno where the lemon is , but industrial designer: I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so user interface: marketing: it's not obvious . user interface: marketing: If industrial designer: Because i marketing: I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or project manager: Yeah . project manager: And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: What's the use for that ? industrial designer: I have no idea , so . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel . project manager: industrial designer: I have no idea what project manager: And where is the voice recognition ? marketing: Okay . user interface: This is microphone array marketing: First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel . Is it better like that ? marketing: project manager: Looks okay , industrial designer: So we can we can say t user interface: project manager: let's say it's a pineapple now . industrial designer: The colour , is the colour acceptable ? marketing: No , the colour is okay , that's fine . marketing: it's project manager: It looks like a marketing: but I would say there is more too much red . industrial designer: It's too much red ? marketing: if industrial designer: In the basement ? project manager: It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top . So , from one to seven ? industrial designer: I will give I will project manager: Seven is the ma the maximum ? industrial designer: I'll gi marketing: No , seven is false and one is true . marketing: Then let me industrial designer: What other marketing: The other criterion is is it technologically technologically in innovative . industrial designer: Is it easy to use ? project manager: Feasible ? You said previously that you there's microphone inside an industrial designer: Ye Embedded . project manager: and you have the there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ? user interface: Yeah , yeah . project manager: And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ? user interface: So you can capture voice yeah , you c industrial designer: Oh yeah , yeah . industrial designer: And I think you you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is I marketing: Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more I dunno , in the core , or single . industrial designer: I think technically it's acceptable , so project manager: Maybe two ? industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: So using the same scale , two ? project manager: Two ? I would say two industrial designer: Two , yeah , two . project manager: It's better like that , isn't it ? user interface: marketing: Now maybe the most critical one . industrial designer: Most marketing: L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ? industrial designer: Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . marketing: Yeah but this this turning can you can you just re explain me the project manager: industrial designer: As a principle . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ? user interface: You just tu turn d d industrial designer: I think maybe if you he project manager: Oh , ok I understand . marketing: Like if you want to go from user interface: project manager: You take take the remote , so industrial designer: If you hear some click project manager: and you can turn like that to change the channel ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: Yeah but imagine you y project manager: I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . user interface: marketing: Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ? industrial designer: Oh yeah , that's difficult . marketing: How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? user interface: No , no , no . industrial designer: Yeah but y how you need to know I marketing: But if you're fro from two ? user interface: I if if this is a channel one . industrial designer: And you you can marketing: Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels project manager: Oh yeah . user interface: So you got how many degree you you it project manager: Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go industrial designer: I think you can if you have a scale , so user interface: No no , you don't have to y no it's when you when you stop t when you stop , the the turn , project manager: How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ? user interface: It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the marketing: So you you count one degree , two degrees , no . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so marketing: Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main user interface: There's also a number , you know . project manager: Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel . project manager: But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it . project manager: Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: And but I'd user interface: And also you can , if you i project manager: yeah , what's what's this cherry ? user interface: You ca you can turn this . industrial designer: S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates user interface: This is from one channel to industrial designer: maybe one of the user interface: Yeah . project manager: marketing: Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas industrial designer: project manager: Most of the time you have the yeah it's a sleeping remote control . industrial designer: Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . marketing: So reasonably , is four , is one ? industrial designer: Three f three for me , it's o it's okay . user interface: project manager: And what's your opinion ? industrial designer: Will you give four ? marketing: we wouldn't say , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me . industrial designer: Five ? Yeah , so maybe if user interface: w w what do y what you compare with traditional tr traditional controller ? marketing: Yeah . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have you just turn the turn the ball . industrial designer: Yeah but y you know user interface: There's two kind of balls , marketing: So you have user interface: the smaller the the the so you can c you can c you can control the scale . user interface: But in the traditional controller , how do how can you control the scale ? marketing: by pushing zero after after the first one . user interface: Yeah , industrial designer: And that's user interface: yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here . user interface: Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one . project manager: Previously you said that turning this was the fine marketing: Yeah , if you're changing your mind . user interface: there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc marketing: Okay . marketing: Yeah but then when you turn turn it project manager: Oh user interface: project manager: Yeah , no no , no . You know tha that's the weak point , user interface: You use your y marketing: because with a traditional one you just have one hand . project manager: Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control . project manager: industrial designer: it's the next prototype , maybe we cou user interface: Okay okay , okay . project manager: marketing: Okay , so industrial designer: It need maybe some wo further work , but it's marketing: Yeah , especially on the easy to use industrial designer: Yeah , s yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , b I think project manager: But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros . project manager: And if not if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it . project manager: So , just have a look at the okay here is the Excel sheet , so industrial designer: project manager: so it has the energy source . project manager: Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose , industrial designer: No , project manager: but we have solar cells . project manager: how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or such as as number of branches ? industrial designer: I think in each ball you have three project manager: Three ? industrial designer: three yeah , three , yeah . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ? industrial designer: S s simple , simple , yeah . industrial designer: Is it marketing: industrial designer: Is sh it marketing: So we are all already nineteen . project manager: Okay , user interface: project manager: just keep on going , just to have an idea . industrial designer: Is Yes a wooden pl I and that's project manager: Well industrial designer: There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think . project manager: yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . project manager: wood ? industrial designer: But it's yeah , a a rubber marketing: Rather four buttons . industrial designer: Y you tu you turn you turn it , so user interface: No no no , it Okay . project manager: Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel . project manager: I think we s if we keep on adding things industrial designer: It's okay . project manager: so we have to marketing: Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells . project manager: Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ? marketing: Yeah . marketing: just imagine we have industrial designer: So user interface: We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think . project manager: no ? marketing: Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really user interface: Yeah it's the one it's project manager: Okay . industrial designer: Because it seems that this can be marketing: Yeah , if project manager: Or it would be better . project manager: So , do we need special colour ? marketing: Yeah , that's one of the requirement . user interface: We we can we can we c marketing: We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black . project manager: I think so we need if we try to have a kind of industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , one . project manager: So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's industrial designer: One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have yeah . marketing: Okay , so what's the bottleneck ? user interface: How about we change the sale ? marketing: Double curved . user interface: marketing: project manager: I think there's a problem with the push push button . project manager: So yeah , you will have marketing: So we have one button , industrial designer: One s one scroll wheel , so marketing: one wheel . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is user interface: Cou could we have look project manager: twelve fifty e user interface: Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ? marketing: Yeah y actually it's wrong . user interface: Wha what industrial designer: It's fine , twelve fifty user interface: yeah . industrial designer: The solar cells , r is i is it ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's not t t project manager: I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be industrial designer: Yeah , to be able to si to sell it . marketing: That's nice argument , industrial designer: Yeah , with mi marketing: but if it's it's still four our of twelve . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button . industrial designer: We've done it with it is under the if it was low , high or so . project manager: Now industrial designer: So So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ? project manager: So marketing: Well I think we have just have to discuss if industrial designer: Okay , okay , it's fine . project manager: Yeah ? Was it a nice way to create your remote control ? industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , it's it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . project manager: industrial designer: Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to from the beginning to the end . project manager: And for the marketing guy ? marketing: tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe . project manager: And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and and yellow . I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after a fruit T_V_ or I dunno . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: It can be an interesting I don't know project manager: Yes , just lemon . user interface: Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's industrial designer: It's flat , user interface: Yeah yeah it's flat , project manager: Squared ? user interface: yeah the shape is very boring . user interface: Could we come up with new T_V_ with such as this kind of T_V_ ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: So you can you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can marketing: project manager: Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control . industrial designer: But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product . marketing: If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for industrial designer: We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know . industrial designer: Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep user interface: marketing: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , you can keep the global appearan project manager: Yeah , and following industrial designer: The mood of persons , the fashions project manager: . project manager: It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of T_V_ with a a tr industrial designer: We int Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's user interface: Yeah . project manager: So user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: do you think you can celebrate your creation ? user interface: And you can celebrate your leadership . marketing: Yeah , I think it's project manager: It's maybe a little bit expensive . industrial designer: Wh really ? project manager: industrial designer: It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: I I think I like the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so project manager: But don't put sugar in it , it's not working . industrial designer: I p is th y project manager: Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more is most important , industrial designer: the the yellow ball thing that marketing: project manager: because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control . It's yeah but it I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere . industrial designer: f like y we can we can put some double R_ project manager: Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs . project manager: So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ . project manager: So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics , user interface: So we have to give a project manager: so we have the slogan too . project manager: Yeah industrial designer: project manager: th no , it's the it's the pineapple control remote control . industrial designer: Oh unid unidentified remote control , so marketing: It's more appropriate , somehow . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage user interface: Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_ industrial designer: Yeah I always lose my Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be user interface: so you need to buy one . project manager: One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on in your jacket . industrial designer: it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so . user interface: project manager: I think it it would be interesting to just to see if we can if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah . No ? project manager: So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control industrial designer: Okay

The solar cell, despite being the most expensive component, was deemed essential for the technological innovation of the controller. Additionally, the marketing team saw potential in using it as a selling point for extensive advertising. The incorporation of solar energy as a power source would provide convenience for people in remote areas to recharge the controller, potentially attracting ecologically-minded consumers. Although the design would raise production costs, the added value it brings would compensate for the increase.

Why did the group decide to incorporate both solar cells and classical battery in the industrial design discussion?

project manager: and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first marketing: No y you do the minutes first , or ? project manager: What ? marketing: No ? project manager: I I think I will let our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan . The second concept is a fancy controller , so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g industrial designer: . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Yeah , it's very , you know project manager: It's very big , user interface: if you're project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . user interface: so maybe we should use technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and gesture recognition . project manager: I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition , user interface: Yeah . project manager: but as the expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ? user interface: Yeah , so project manager: Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ? user interface: Y marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ? user interface: I think some time it's very convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button . user interface: For example , if you cannot find your controller , you can just just just speak something such as , yeah , one two . project manager: I industrial designer: Oh yeah , that's a good that's a good point , so . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah but how how is how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ? project manager: Broken arm ? user interface: For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very marketing: Okay . project manager: Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: If you have one brother and one sister marketing: Yeah project manager: and they want to watch their favourite T_V_ programme , marketing: Yeah , but the project manager: so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time , industrial designer: Yeah but Yeah user interface: Yeah , it's very interesting . industrial designer: but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , marketing: I don't think it project manager: but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you . marketing: Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff . Even you h you have the controller , I can I can say channel three , industrial designer: It's it's marketing: No . user interface: so it's c come to channel three , marketing: No , but this is disadvant disadvantage . user interface: I don't have to project manager: Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage . industrial designer: And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to project manager: Yeah , but one other question . marketing: if you if if you use the basic user interface: No no we just have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field . project manager: So you think it won't cost an Not a lot for us ? Or ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's because this technology is for limited wor or limited wor lexical recognition , it's very project manager: Yeah , but user interface: it's yeah . It's marketing: But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . industrial designer: Well y y you have also the language problem , user interface: No it's Even for the f because the the vocabulary the industrial designer: you know when you project manager: project manager: Yeah , but there is one problem that Baba talked about is the international industrial designer: Yeah . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Yeah , the key , the key the key of our the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some adaptation marketing: Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or industrial designer: Yeah but you know . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . industrial designer: It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe project manager: okay . user interface: Yeah , project manager: And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ? user interface: it's industrial designer: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: Yeah , but how will you user interface: So industrial designer: Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one . industrial designer: because the for example for Se user interface: Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to industrial designer: Oh really ? That's project manager: Oh . marketing: but then w Yeah , industrial designer: Comple user interface: No , it's not so complex . marketing: we have to take care of the twelve Euros project manager: And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ? marketing: problem . project manager: And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ? user interface: No no no it's not I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , but we're marketing: No , but then it's it's like this project manager: here it's an object . project manager: Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . user interface: Yeah yeah just you just put the controller here , then you industrial designer: I if you say one , he switch to channel , user interface: you use your command project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: No no it's n y if you lose it industrial designer: So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one . project manager: Okay you so you can build a kind of black box industrial designer: Devic project manager: and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice . Or is it do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ? user interface: think it we should give the flexibility to the user and we think marketing: Okay , so you project manager: Yeah , user interface: yeah . user interface: No , project manager: And maybe it will be quite user interface: that's quite inter quite attractive . industrial designer: But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so although y y user interface: Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . marketing: What ? project manager: Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ? marketing: If if , I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition . industrial designer: Yeah , but marketing: But if if if it like doubles industrial designer: I think he need a control that is very reliable , marketing: no one would would be interested . project manager: So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . user interface: project manager: Just want to have something controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ? user interface: Yeah but if if you stick to stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ? industrial designer: Yeah . No , user interface: Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that marketing: industrial designer: It's not really the we marketing: Y industrial designer: we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so or something like that . But I think a user need user interface: Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function , marketing: No , user interface: but marketing: but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something , industrial designer: Don't have a the the Yeah user interface: Okay . user interface: But it's not the only the problem only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ . industrial designer: Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if marketing: Cause for example yeah . user interface: Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller , marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , but we want so user interface: but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition . user interface: the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our from other products . project manager: Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone . industrial designer: And for all the person of the family maybe , user interface: Yeah , project manager: You don't need to tune it . user interface: Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ? project manager: Yeah , why not ? If it's marketing: for example the goo y industrial designer: Because you have new marketing: you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller . marketing: I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . marketing: so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot . marketing: thi this , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition user interface: The then nn marketing: or user interface: no . marketing: if he has something that works fine and is really fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use . user interface: But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller . marketing: See user interface: That's the same marketing: That's the problem , user interface: yeah . , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever . marketing: But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product user interface: Yeah . project manager: Two ? industrial designer: Yeah , participant two project manager: Working ? industrial designer: Yeah , working design , user interface: industrial designer: so . marketing: industrial designer: So I think project manager: I can industrial designer: Can you go to the next one ? I it's not this one . industrial designer: It's oth the oth so I marketing: industrial designer: It's the working design . project manager: It's okay industrial designer: So this yeah so this is the described use project manager: industrial designer: What ? Are you inst project manager: I think there's something wrong with your user interface: It did didn't r receive it . project manager: It seems that we have a problem with the marketing: I dunno if you remember what you had to say or industrial designer: I can say it to you without . project manager: Yeah , so user interface: Yeah , maybe we can first come to project manager: No , I think it will be more interesting to start with user interface: to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides , marketing: I think it's more interesting what he says , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: exac marketing: project manager: You will had s some more information in industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with user interface: project manager: Okay , never mind . industrial designer: so It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r user interface: Okay . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside user interface: Okay . So I in fact the the f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use , project manager: industrial designer: so will it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . industrial designer: so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night , project manager: industrial designer: And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example d solar energy alimentation user interface: -huh . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come user interface: industrial designer: and so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example . project manager: Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers industrial designer: Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more , industrial designer: project manager: no ? industrial designer: Alrigh In fact , having them both will if we want to have battery , regular battery and and the solar energy battery it could be it'll it will add a little bit of the price , project manager: So . project manager: And what tha what about the materials ? industrial designer: And the materials , it depends for example you if you have a wooden material it can be more the plastic material is more common project manager: Impersonal , industrial designer: it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class , project manager: Yeah . marketing: Special for industrial designer: or you know , you can have some project manager: Yeah , and i if you we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood . industrial designer: Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood user interface: industrial designer: And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module . project manager: Yeah , we want something easy to use and so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough . project manager: And you think that we will be industrial designer: Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: project manager: And what about the buttons ? industrial designer: I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know lighted buttons because , you know , it's I don't know yeah , in the dark , it's fashion project manager: No it's fashion , yeah . industrial designer: and it's related to how beautiful it is or if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right . industrial designer: I think a touch screen will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so . , I think so , just Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next . project manager: marketing: So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and i i it sounds good technically user interface: . marketing: but it's it's not what they want and So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on . Wha what we really see this year is that everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables , industrial designer: Ah yes . marketing: okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing . And then if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . marketing: So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion from Milan and Paris industrial designer: And fruit and vegetables yeah . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch , industrial designer: Spongy 'Kay . industrial designer: Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ? marketing: Yeah thi this is this would be like industrial designer: Pla S marketing: plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like industrial designer: Very stuff Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . marketing: Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion . So , as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and with battery would be something interesting , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be enough to have something working well . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: No wood but Plastic ? marketing: Maybe not no wood , but ma maybe not the part you touching you know . industrial designer: Would some user interface: Pla project manager: Maybe you industrial designer: I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . marketing: But still y project manager: Th The feeling is natural , industrial designer: Yeah , it's natural marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol marketing: Yeah , it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view . marketing: But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: and what about the user interface concept ? industrial designer: Google and project manager: Google and fancy ? industrial designer: and fancy , f how about the the voice ? And project manager: Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this . industrial designer: maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested user interface: yes . industrial designer: But and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually , project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: so . industrial designer: But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so . project manager: So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller , marketing: I dunno . project manager: maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood . project manager: Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add . And pf what can we think a supplement to marketing: What interface ? project manager: Yeah , for the interface something added value . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of project manager: With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes so we'll you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the simple vocal commands recognition . project manager: you will have to work more , Baba , on the spongy way to to add spongy touch to the buttons industrial designer: expensive buttons Yeah , to make some new project manager: and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control . project manager: And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and the colour of the the society will be really it will be seen in the remote control . project manager: So you will have Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us modelling a cl a clay remote control , user interface: Yeah . Yep project manager: And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach <doc-sep>project manager: for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about the work for each one . user interface: project manager: And take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . project manager: and I think we don't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . industrial designer: So Well I have a PowerPoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: Here . project manager: industrial designer: Right , so I will talk about the the w working design and user interface: F_ five . industrial designer: And well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: So I'm thin I think I I'll do a survey about what is what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . Then I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see with h how this little box would look look like . user interface: industrial designer: And how an and we can start troubleshooting first com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or things like that . Okay so can you go down So , wha what I think for now is we don't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so I think we u we can use a battery for the . And the communication with the T_V_ set is made through infrared communication So this is the the schema of the o of the future remote controls user interface: Did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: Wow . industrial designer: so you can you can see the components , battery and the two chips goes to the infrared connection to the T_V_ set . industrial designer: The one on top is for the well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: One is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , f transform the data into qu into the format to to to communicate with the T_V_ set . I think we should use a F_P_G_A_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: . What is F_P_G_A_ ? industrial designer: It's field programmable something array . user interface: So why's it how is it different from the Bluetooth ? industrial designer: Well , a F_P_G_A_ is just a chip you can you can pr programme it wi with wh whatever you want . industrial designer: And well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to make the communication between the two devices . So this are the they have to work together ? Or ? Do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: No . marketing: Or it's something like isn't hardware the first one ? And the second one is for the software . marketing: Okay , and how about the battery power ? you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: no no no no , I think we have to to have embedded b batteries in in the project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: And I I don't think it will need very much power to make it run , so user interface: . user interface: Because you are using because you are using Bluetooth , if some people have P_D_A_ they can use their P_D_A_ to control the T_V_ if they want to , right ? industrial designer: That's a good idea . marketing: project manager: Ma industrial designer: Also , but but I I I think the the goal is to sell our remote control . So the the purpose is to to find the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . user interface: and and I found that the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . user interface: For example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: G user interface: So I found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: This are usual functionality . industrial designer: user interface: But then loo but then I found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: And they are small . O on the right I tried to play with the problem is that if I have hundred channels I have I have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and I have to compose the number industrial designer: Yeah . And then I I look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we don't want that . You can navigate on T_V_ screen and we can the user's preference and we need to have the T_V_ connected to internet so we end in order to access the T_V_ programmes by X_M_L_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . From the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the T_V_ set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: And then we the speech recognition as Harry says we may just put in we may K_I_V_ . project manager: What do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the T_V_ user interface: Yeah , all the processing is done the T_V_ is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: So we have to t project manager: So we should have specific T_V_ ? Or ? We can use this . project manager: Yeah , we don't marketing: user interface: Yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . industrial designer: I think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the T_V_ set on recorders or thing like that user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: Okay . user interface: So i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: Yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any T_V_ , any conventional T_V_ sets ? project manager: we . project manager: Keep the navigation industrial designer: We d we don't we we don't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the T_V_ so project manager: but user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: It's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: Oh , but you have a catch there , assume that if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: Well , then y you you go to the main menu and you have go to channel user interface: . No , because you choose by channel , so you choose by T_V_ program industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: but I I think i i if you if you want to to make well a a big jump but well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: But project manager: So you are user interface: Ah . user interface: A mouse or industrial designer: Well , not a mouse but something that that says more clearly that right , left , up , down , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: . So it'll beep if you wanna find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we can't find it . project manager: user interface: you just shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . user interface: And responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , that's right . marketing: Okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here . user interface: marketing: And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that These are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a T_V_ remote but the technology We already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: Well I I think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to make a speech recognisers runs on the small ts user interface: project manager: marketing: An it does how feasible it is . I if you just recognise numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: And this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without adding buttons user interface: Yeah . And of course most of the people are interested in if it's less expensive , project manager: marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: But project manager: But do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: I no I I think that i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with reasonable cost . marketing: user interface: Maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: Little bit more if it's with extra features . industrial designer: Well , project manager: There is in the marketing: for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . industrial designer: marketing: Or they say movie name or I don't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: I think user interface: industrial designer: I well project manager: I think i industrial designer: it will be alright . project manager: What about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: Yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but I think not much people are really interested in this point if it's not really required . user interface: So you need s special T_V_ sets to do that ? Or it's it's done via this remote controller ? It's very complex . marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , I think it's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: yeah , it's for the industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it's going to be working or not . industrial designer: For our next product , our new T_V_ set with automatical sound adjustment light marketing: I think project manager: user interface: Yeah , then we can conclude that . So any things to to discuss ? Or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: I think as I discussed th that four points would be good for marketing . And regarding the teletext these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . marketing: And if you are a French guy watching an English movie you would like to have it in French . industrial designer: marketing: So , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: Yeah , but well what about the the new project's requirement ? I I I think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: I think we we can we is the . Well , so maybe we we can j we can already think about a way to to access the internet via the television . industrial designer: Because if user interface: Using the T_V_ to access the internet ? Or what ? I didn't quite understand industrial designer: Yeah , but we can think that in a few years there will be T_V_ set that can access the internet . industrial designer: So it's a good idea if i i if we i if if we think about how to to to build up our remote control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . industrial designer: So if we already have it in our remote control project manager: So you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible

The group made the decision to incorporate wood into the design of the electronics, as they wanted to infuse fashion into the product and wood was considered a more high-class and unique option compared to the common and impersonal plastic material. Additionally, the team planned to enhance the product with software functionalities using programmable chips, specifically FPGA, and opted for chargers instead of batteries.

What was the final decision regarding the material and design for the industrial product?

industrial designer: Should I bring my pen too ? project manager: Yeah just yeah , no , industrial designer: Or project manager: that's for me , I just have to make some notes . marketing: Can you hear me ? Hello ? project manager: actually my laptop doesn't work , marketing: Test . So the thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things or , not yet , user interface: Yes . So , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly that's what we're going to design . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it that's the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what the market is doing for what kind of remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is the detailed design and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . Okay so no , this is a these are two smartboards , with the f s an introduction of that one . And you already saw you know all that that you here can put things in the the red project map . You have to draw a favourite animal on the whiteboard marketing: project manager: and and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have this is just to try it out and we have to use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . project manager: I just h industrial designer: project manager: Something like this ? Oh no marketing: It look like a dinosaurs . project manager: Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Okay and then what's the colour ? How do I do project manager: It's in format . there has to be water , project manager: Just marketing: but project manager: No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's it should be a shna snake or something . marketing: Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water . marketing: Okay , who next ? project manager: do you have to write down why that doesn't matter , just it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay . project manager: Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that no , to the yeah . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: A sheep ? project manager: we d only have twenty five minutes , so . project manager: Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have user interface: No project manager: okay . project manager: I thought these pens would be just you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay . user interface: Yeah , that's right , project manager: But it's just user interface: it but you actually got to write on the paper . project manager: Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in typed words in Word , marketing: Yeah yeah , it's a real pen . project manager: so that's not user interface: Yeah , but it's just a picture . user interface: You really marketing: Y you can you can't edit in the edit it in Word . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure . marketing: project manager: Oh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: this is definitely the best one . project manager: Okay , so what we know is that we have to sell this remote control for about twenty five Euros . And we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to use a big market in Europe . project manager: So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . so we're gonna have a little discussion about what experience are with a remote control the and everything , so just have a look how it we think about remote controls . marketing: Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a a universal remote control ? project manager: Oh yeah , that's a good question . marketing: Because we sell it lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it apart . project manager: I think it's I'm not I'm not sure , marketing: So I project manager: it's not I think industrial designer: Yeah , it probably would be universal . marketing: Because user interface: And only television ? Or more devices ? project manager: I don't think you can buy a a a universal remote control for twenty five Euros , so not sure , but industrial designer: maybe , I don't know . marketing: Yeah , I know you can buy a re a universal control for only twenty Euros project manager: Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . industrial designer: And also for the V_C_R_ and D_V_D_ player project manager: Yeah , everything industrial designer: and project manager: just so a lot of buttons on the remote control . project manager: what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not nothing very special , but user interface: Well we can try to make it special . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user user interface: Well marketing: Well I th I thought about making it the same style as the television , we don't have the same television all the time , so that's no matter . if we control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it it has to be clear , because kids and elderly are gonna use it , so it's not only for the technical persons . I think it must be a very good control , so you can act use it from everywhere in your room , the the infrared thing must be from very good quality . user interface: It shouldn't be too big , marketing: I dunno user interface: but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so . user interface: Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer , marketing: Yes user interface: maybe more trendy . user interface: Fold open , project manager: Okay , user interface: where you can see more options . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something , industrial designer: Yeah marketing: Ah industrial designer: n marketing: that's that's project manager: if you just user interface: Yeah , something on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often . project manager: Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ? industrial designer: maybe be it's it's project manager: There are buttons on it . user interface: But that's industrial designer: like a a to have marketing: Yeah , but user interface: Yeah , I think it's much too expensive . project manager: marketing: And we have to care for the strength of the remote control , project manager: Yeah . marketing: because remote controls are most things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often broken . marketing: Yeah and a lots lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not kids project manager: No . industrial designer: And how about the batteries ? marketing: industrial designer: should you put it in a recharger or a just project manager: Oh maybe that's a good idea , marketing: Ma maybe a home station . project manager: just to put it on your television and just s recharge , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think . project manager: Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive is a normal recharger ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: Well how much is your standards mobile phone recharger ? project manager: I dunno . industrial designer: Yeah , if you buy it separately from your phone it's probably expensive , project manager: marketing: Ah yeah . marketing: user interface: Maybe have marketing: project manager: if you th look at the market , it's probably it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive . marketing: Yeah , but a home station is a really good idea , because lots of people are lose their remote control and don't know where it is , project manager: Yeah , that's right , yeah . marketing: Maybe it's Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive . industrial designer: Yeah , but I have a mouse that's also user interface: Rechargeable . industrial designer: Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station , user interface: Yeah . marketing: I I set something on paper already , size , looks , usable , the buttons on usable places , the the on off button must be on top , project manager: Yeah . marketing: you you have to project manager: Has it be has does it has to b have to be like a different form than a normal remote control marketing: Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know project manager: or user interface: Well I think we have to look at that , marketing: if we user interface: 'cause well you can do the standard way , but then you won't marketing: You can make it very special , to create our own looks , project manager: Yeah marketing: but it's very hard to industrial designer: N if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works . user interface: Well you can have the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume obviously on t on top , so you can see . user interface: But the rest is you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well . user interface: So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: And what we have to think about too is buttons that you use often are maybe like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you can still do the th the functions . project manager: Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine . marketing: on on top are the the basic options on top , industrial designer: But n user interface: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but i basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so , marketing: and if you fold it open project manager: But maybe it's user interface: Yeah . project manager: maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very what's it's called ? marketing: . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an the strength is not s as good as a normal remote control . project manager: Maybe it's hard t user interface: project manager: No , that's right . marketing: for m for me the Marketing Expert , the user requirements specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the user interface: No , what you want to do with it . project manager: Yeah , I think this if you you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . user interface: Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff project manager: Yeah , user interface: that you want on a project manager: no maybe not not , that's not a f that's something for for for yeah . project manager: what's in the market , what's normal , what kind of buttons do you have . user interface: What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control . project manager: For the next time you have to put it exactly on the square , so your laptop <doc-sep>project manager: I have some points I would like to some some issues I would like to point out . first of all , if you make minutes yourself as well , like Sebastian does , could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you wrote down , user interface: Yeah . the second thing , I was th s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . industrial designer: So project manager: the agenda for now are there any pre-discussion questions ? marketing: user interface: No . industrial designer: project manager: we wi we will have your individual presentations , then the decision on the remote control concept , and the closing . So I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , the progress you've made . project manager: I think it might be smart to look at Ruud's information first , because I understood there are some significant changes in the market situation . Ease of use is important , but innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is even more important . And some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their clothes , shoes and furniture , user interface: marketing: and that they want spongy material . But we since we are concentrating on the younger group project manager: w wait a sec wait a se industrial designer: Oh wait wait up . project manager: could you go to the previous slide ? because I'm taking minutes marketing: 'Kay . The feel of to be spongy industrial designer: so do you think when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ? marketing: Well , one example given was this , so I assume they just want something colourful . user interface: you said in the p industrial designer: marketing: No , the younger group likes more colourful objects . marketing: But user interface: I had industrial designer: But can you can you go back to that slide ? The marketing: Which one ? industrial designer: just one slide back , marketing: This ? industrial designer: no no no . industrial designer: Has it something to do with that natural feeling also , do you think ? project manager: marketing: well , it might . project manager: Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t it it shouldn't be too hard . marketing: Yeah , and like the older group likes familiar materials , user interface: Or we could make oh . But since we're conten concentrating on the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and make it colourful or like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers . industrial designer: project manager: Do you know the phone ? industrial designer: I don't know the phone , project manager: It's the Siemens C_ twenty five , industrial designer: but I can imagine it . project manager: I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank gave away , user interface: thirty five . project manager: the very user interface: And the b the light blue and it's also in yellow . project manager: You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th marketing: I've seen it , project manager: Okay . Okay , so the the m important findings are innovation is more important than ease of use for the our target group . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , because most of things we already said in the previous discussion . project manager: Okay , well it's good to to sum up the things we already thought about . user interface: the previous ideas were voice recognition and the round button for the p channel programming and volume . These are both with with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and just , well , a weird shape . user interface: So I suggest I couldn't I had a small mock-up sign on the on paper . But it's it's kind of it's kind of o organic , so that's very good . project manager: And what I'm thinking about , maybe we should make very light but a grip this is how you hold a remote control . project manager: it shouldn't be too glatt , too slippery , industrial designer: Slippery . project manager: s because user interface: But if you have something like the Siemens phone , it's rubber . There are there are also remote controls who have a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in , project manager: Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: Oh and to add on Ruud's information , in this interface we can have high-tech with the voice recognition and , well , the the fancy colours and and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . user interface: So if you have the voice recognition , you can you can programme like thirty thirty c controls on it . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: Okay , b but I think we'll industrial designer: Okay , but I'll I'll go into that , project manager: yeah . I had a talk with our manufacturing division , and we had a talk about all the different components who are in this design . that's the most common remote con control form we're used to is just a it ju it's just a box . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the big grey image you had in your presentation . industrial designer: But it's quite advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . We can use plastic , which is very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source source . project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: You really have to imagine like winding up your user interface: Great . project manager: Well , it would be very new to the market , industrial designer: I d marketing: project manager: but industrial designer: It would be very new , marketing: industrial designer: but it's a kind of a retro style , I think . So when you're watching T_V_ or when you're you you have to make some kind of energy kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: It have it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . project manager: I think , if if I can hook on to that , the kinetic thing is very funny . project manager: solar is of course it's nice , but it's , well , your your calculator has a solar panel . project manager: hand dynamo user interface: But if you're watching a movie , how many times you take the the remote control and and project manager: Well , maybe m user interface: if if you have a watch , you have the kinetic idea in a watch also . industrial designer: But you know you know from your own watch your watch uses a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . the the shaking of your body , which is almost every activity makes your body shake , it charges it . So I think you have a problem when you're watching a movie and you haven't moved the remote i remote control in a in an amount of time , and you want t to switch the channel or something , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: So , but maybe maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: and when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries . project manager: Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f a lot of power . industrial designer: And we of course have the traditional solar power , which is just a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . The user interface controls , of course we have the push-buttons and we also have scroll-wheels . in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means you can watch in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is currently user interface: So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four user interface: user interface: But I th I don't think the scroll-wheels I had some I had some information about it too . user interface: I don't think there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels . project manager: Well user interface: I d I can't see any scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ? user interface: Yeah , that's a possibility , industrial designer: it's do it's done before . user interface: But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for project manager: Volume ? industrial designer: Well , it's it well , i what he means is there's an button integrated in the scroll-wheel . project manager: Ruud , wha what do you thing about a scroll-bar ? scroll-wheel . But it's done before , there are many other devices like telephones and our radio , pocket radios . industrial designer: And Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now . project manager: Nokia has a well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this . user interface: Yeah , I believe if you have what we've earlier said , the grip places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb . user interface: So in that case the volume button on the side of the remote control would be perfect . industrial designer: Okay , we have to know , if you want to use these rubber double-curved c case , you must use these push push-buttons . We basically have three types of chips we can use and these chips incorporate all the Logica and hardware that is needed to send to send a signal . So so user interface: you programme it , you m mute and you g you give an an action to it that that's really the mute function industrial designer: okay . user interface: So you say mute , he repeats mute and you makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . And if we don't want to use any of these more advanced functions we can keep with the simple chip , which is a bit cheaper . project manager: d did we already decide on the display ? To industrial designer: no , but I think that's something for Roo here to think about . Well , I don't have I haven't looked for for information about it , but I don't think information y I don't think you need it on a display . user interface: Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think industrial designer: I I don't think either . user interface: 'cause all any T_V_ can can view a digit on on screen , industrial designer: No . Okay , well project manager: th industrial designer: my conclusion , unfortunately the market has decided the a little other than I thought . I thought the market would like a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural stuff . It's it's more advanced , but I'm I think you should combine it with batteries . project manager: Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy , industrial designer: Otherwise it will not too advanced , project manager: too industrial designer: well . industrial designer: It's in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries . user interface: But what about the markets wants colourfuls designs ? So if you use titanium project manager: No no , but the that's what Sebastian said . project manager: No , user interface: And I would think marketing: And project manager: r marketing: yeah , project manager: rubber with colours . industrial designer: Okay , well these scroll-wheels , I think they they can be they can be handy . user interface: And they can be implemented with a regular chip ? industrial designer: So Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple user interface: Okay , but we also we already need the regular chip for the sample sensor speaker industrial designer: Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an a different user interface: oh , project manager: But but do we want the curved design , user interface: evalu project manager: or industrial designer: I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple straight-forward not curve design , i it's too dull . industrial designer: And if you take the double-curved , then you cannot you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels . project manager: Okay , what about the issue I addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? the voice function w with the infrared issue . It's it's I I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device . But project manager: It depends also on your on your user interface: Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just to the other wall . project manager: But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue . industrial designer: I think it gives us the advantage of user interface: And and the scroll scroll-wheels . project manager: according to Ruud , the the the market likes new flashy technology , industrial designer: Technology . project manager: well , ok I know , but it's m it's less s standard marketing: Standard ? project manager: than than Well , we are not very w we do not know much about the the f the financial part . project manager: Because if we do have enough space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it , industrial designer: user interface: But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp the speaker the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours . I think i Ruud , do you have any anything you would like to add or or maybe thoughts or marketing: Nah , n no , I don't think so . M project manager: No ? Sebast nee , Roo ? Roo , do you have any other user interface: no . the n the next phase will be the not the project manager: Sebas industrial designer: what is the next phase f Flores ? project manager: Well , we we need to describe decisions now . project manager: So industrial designer: So i project manager: on the energy , well , we decided . project manager: User interface user interface: but can't scroll-wheels work with one one-curved case ? Yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: project manager: and the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard . user interface: The project drawing is for the next industrial designer: So you will be on the Bahamas . marketing: project manager: Yeah , it's it's when we come back in thirty minutes , you will have a prototype ready . So can you give us a summary of all decisions we've made ? project manager: Yeah ? I can . user interface: But can there be wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ? project manager: No , user interface: 'Cause if we have to choose project manager: they can be complementary . industrial designer: Well , project manager: Every device user interface: What if not ? industrial designer: It it should be . Okay , industrial designer: So project manager: th industrial designer: So just the energy source is the batteries and the solar . What about the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ? project manager: Yeah , with colourful rubber . project manager: if it's possible with different covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can can help us with with such a wish . Don't you think ? project manager: Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before . so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image industrial designer: . project manager: or or thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m c market group , I guess . marketing: industrial designer: Okay , marketing: industrial designer: but I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on the device . Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print , industrial designer: Oh , I've read . industrial designer: And th the they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too . marketing: user interface: What what did you say ? industrial designer: Well you can use well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too . Because it i what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy devices , or or i user interface: Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually . user interface: What I said in the in the first discussion , the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber . project manager: is that does our our supplier say so ? user interface: It is not something it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from marketing: didn't did we inc include the digi digits or leave them to the speech recognition ? user interface: No , but but it marketing: 'Cause things like volume could be placed next to the button . So still then , if you feel li if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting . project manager: No no , there's no painting , only yellow or But it's into the rubber . project manager: Yeah , but this is on the pla user interface: You have to draw the industrial designer: Yes , the signs . project manager: What about making this rubber and making this plastic ? industrial designer: I see what you mean . project manager: But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber . project manager: industrial designer: Well , I'm I'm not so sure , user interface: Y can you separate these these industrial designer: I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need to make these buttons all all of rubber . project manager: I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ? industrial designer: I think both . The side , but do you touch between the the these buttons ? user interface: I think Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have a lot of space to touch . project manager: because you have to make its prototype , and yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and user interface: Yeah . The chip is is not really industrial designer: The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . project manager: Yeah ? Yeah , if you write wrote anything down , could you put it on the shared folder ? industrial designer: Okay <doc-sep> I'm the Project Manager of this project , and , well I will tell you on what actually is the project . there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this isn't a pie , it's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . well user interface: Well industrial designer: project manager: I said I'm the Project Manager and I'm hoping for a good project and I'd like to hear who you are and what your functions are on this project . industrial designer: Okay , I'm I'm the Industrial Designer and I hope to look forward to a very pleasing end of this project . well I said we're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . As you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss our work so far . as you also noticed this presentation document is in our project folder and every document you put in this folder is it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . and yeah there are available on both smart boards but I think we will mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . the most functions we will use will be to to add a new page , to go back and forward between pages , and of course to save it every now and then . and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything's okay , user interface: project manager: but I first have to put it on the pen , you see I'm new to it too . project manager: As you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it's not such a fast board , it's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , erase things , so we have est left . project manager: Well you can erase it with the eraser , but you shouldn't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . marketing: S project manager: I will delete this one now because we don't use it yet . project manager: But you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but don't delete entire pages . And you can also let's see I think it's here change the colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and change the line width like to five . that's what you will need for our first exercise , because I'm going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: It's also to gets to know each other because I'm asking three things , for that drawing , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and I just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which I also showed you . Well I'm not very good at drawing , but I will go first and try to draw user interface: project manager: Or maybe you should guess what I'm drawing , eh . And I hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it as fast as we can . user interface: marketing: I think it's easy to r to recognise as a giraffe . marketing: Anything else you need to know ? project manager: Could you write the words , underneath it ? Or more words . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Well industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , I hope . project manager: industrial designer: I've I've user interface: industrial designer: Eraser . I can see we have some drawing talent in this group , industrial designer: user interface: Not really . And we're hoping for a aim of fifty million Euros and we are hoping to achieve that by aiming for an international market . what's your experience with remote controls , what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . marketing: Yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: Yeah , that's right . industrial designer: Yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could I thin there's a possibility to g to to put those buttons behind some kind of protection marketing: Flap user interface: Right . Yeah , okay , that's possible , industrial designer: That's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it'll get very big the the remote control . industrial designer: No n n no , just for example you got th the same size remote control you use everyday , but the usual buttons such as zapping as you call it in Dutch . Because things for teletext , I dunno , w industrial designer: marketing: - , of course . project manager: So you don't want to bother people with loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: No . user interface: But if if it's if it's international you should look in think in Britain they have different things they can do with the T_V_ , or so that you can choose what you want to see . I dunno if you should take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal T_V_s industrial designer: . marketing: Yeah I think that's the better one , user interface: And the B_B_C_ . marketing: because I think if you you're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only Britain then I think the cost will rise higher than the twelve fifty , I think . So I think when p when the customers will buy this remote control , they already have the remote control which companies with the the standards remote control with which comes with the television . user interface: Well industrial designer: In those in that user interface: but marketing: No but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . Yeah , th it it's I think that's not user interface: That's not industrial designer: Yeah but I but it is impossible to to accommodate accommodate all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . industrial designer: Because for example Sony television has the opportunity to s to make to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen teletext , and on the other side just n regular television . industrial designer: Because you can't use a Panasonic remote control on a on a Philips television . marketing: Yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . But I think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that's that's nowadays standard , I think . industrial designer: but I think that most people th will buy the remote control because because the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: Simplicity . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . our next meeting will start well we're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: In the meantime there's time for some individual actions . project manager: that's good , five minutes and the meeting's over , right on schedule . industrial designer: No , user interface: No industrial designer: the Industrial Designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the Yeah . industrial designer: and the in usability interaction user interface: project manager: Industrial Designer , okay , industrial designer: Yeah , okay . user interface: So So I should look at what you should be able to do with the remote , or , or how I don't really project manager: well those instructions will be in the email you will receive shortly , I hope . project manager: No ? Okay well I think then we have to head back to our offices and start working . marketing: Where does it says we have to make a remote , because I presumed She didn't know who . project manager: Okay , well I expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive shortly <doc-sep>Right , my name's Adam Duguid , we're here because of real reaction , we have in the group marketing: Oh , Ebenezer Ademesoye . Would you like me to spell that ? project manager: yeah , marketing: S project manager: go for it mate . project manager: And you're going to be the User Interface , user interface: User Interface Defin Designer , yes . So , the reason we're here , we're gonna design a new remote control , as you probably all know . Course , we'll have to go into a bit more detail than that , but personally I think that the original is gonna be a very key aspect to this design . , there's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we're gonna need something that's really gonna set it apart . We're gonna have the three kay phases , as you've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . Second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . What can I say ? Ebenezer , you wanna have a you wanna draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: Sure . Also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and I can't remember back when I used to live back in Nigeria , but I think I used to have a pet elephant . So elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter E_ , just like Ebenezer . project manager: Tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . industrial designer: Do we take them off ? marketing: I think you ga industrial designer: Oh right , project manager: You should also l have your the lapel mic on as well . Yeah , industrial designer: Now where do I put the marketing: Just somewhere project manager: Yep , the , it's just across there , that's it . project manager: You can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , I wouldn't worry too much . They're just they're big , they're biggest cats , I did a project on cats in the wild when I was a kid and it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . My dad used to talk about he's from Bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when I was a kid . The one f in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to well my I have a three three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as Miss Monkey . And fr and from from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . And and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . Also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but cats are one of my favourite animals , they're very independent , they're snotty as hell at the best of times , and , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . I think we've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . That's not a terrible lot as far as I'm aware , and we're hoping to sell them for twenty five . If we're aiming for fifty million Euros we're gonna have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: Oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that's the amount made , project manager: Yep . project manager: Well , fifty million , and if you're making twelve point five Euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . Any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: Well , one thing I'm aware of is , th there at the sort of v very high price end of the market there's there's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen L_C_D_ remotes that can be programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different the the the diff the different things that it's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one you know one macro to turn the you know turn the T_V_ to the right channel , get the re rewind the tape in the V_C_R_ and get it to play once it's rewound , for instance . user interface: b it occurs to me there might be a niche for for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . project manager: Okay , yeah , tha that's true , with the price range we're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: Absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: Yeah , I wouldn't like to say you g you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . project manager: Would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the T_V_ , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: For instance , let's say oh oh , or you know you pr you press say the play button for the D_V_D_ player and it turns the T_V_ on and onto the right channel as well , project manager: Okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . marketing: 'Kay project manager: Any takes on this ? marketing: Well I've noticed that gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , when I was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , keypad , for playing games . They they've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or to record things . Instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: Okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that's project manager: Yeah I've heard I've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: . marketing: Yeah , it's it's taken out the Y you don't have to be really clever to use a remote control . I think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: you wanna be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: we're beginning to run out of time now , so , we've got a couple of ideas , marketing: Yeah . project manager: we can we'll have to work fast , alright as you can see we've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , how the user interface might work , that'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . project manager: And we're gonna maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: What the user wants . Has anybody got anything they'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: Well when you're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: Oh . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: I I don't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it's probably an interface that most people are used to . The other key feature that that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . But of course , al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive sha shape for it overall , . So , user interface: A curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that's just a little different . Something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . I'd say we finish this one up , we get started , I'll get in , I'll write up what we've kind of quickly done , and I'll get that out to everybody . project manager: as far as I'm aware we leave the microphones here , unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

The group aimed to achieve a satisfying profit by setting the price of the remote control at 25 euros, which was relatively high. To mitigate the potential decrease in consumers, they decided to make it a universal remote control that could function on different TVs. Additionally, they planned to incorporate a touchscreen and include games for children. The energy source was also a point of discussion, whether to use rechargeable batteries or normal ones. The industrial designer suggested using a soft material for a natural feeling, which was agreed upon by the marketing team. The user interface proposed using rubber, which was accepted by the entire team. The project manager informed the team of their financial target of 50 million euros, with each remote control making a profit of 12.5 euros. The team had various ideas for the remote control design, including an integrated remote control for different devices and a barcode design to tap into the game market. The user interface suggested an integrated remote control to address the issue of losing and complexity. The industrial designer expressed the need for a user-friendly remote control that could work on different devices. The marketing team suggested considering different types of TVs, such as teletext. The project manager agreed and proposed making the remote control more fun and engaging.

Summarize the group's discussion on the conceptual design, material, functions, advanced techniques, project finance, and experience of the new remote control.

Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance? kirsty williams am: I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020? kirsty williams am: Okay. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire? claire bennett: Yes. sian gwenllian am: You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. kirsty williams am: The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me— kirsty williams am: Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. Some of the feedback that we've had is that— sian gwenllian am: So, will you be adding to those? kirsty williams am: Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention. Will they include mental health and well-being? kirsty williams am: Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out. lynne neagle am: They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law. kirsty williams am: Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system. kirsty williams am: Claire, am I explaining it okay? claire bennett: Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school. sian gwenllian am: Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying— kirsty williams am: So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. kirsty williams am: Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee— kirsty williams am: We're assuming so. sian gwenllian am: Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said? kirsty williams am: Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education— sian gwenllian am: Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it? kirsty williams am: Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response? claire bennett: It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education. And your response? kirsty williams am: And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that? kirsty williams am: Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. sian gwenllian am: —actually implemented in September— kirsty williams am: In 2022. kirsty williams am: And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David. hefin david am: Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton? kirsty williams am: I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap. And how do you respond, then—? , it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils? kirsty williams am: Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools. hefin david am: What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical. kirsty williams am: As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them. hefin david am: So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'. kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. hefin david am: Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' kirsty williams am: Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems. hefin david am: It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that? kirsty williams am: Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made— hefin david am: Bridges have been built. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on. hefin david am: I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv. kirsty williams am: And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know. hefin david am: And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. steve davies: As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform. kirsty williams am: The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay. hefin david am: When did that take place? kirsty williams am: Where? hefin david am: When. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know— suzy davies am: This isn't about assessment. suzy davies am: So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales? kirsty williams am: Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content— suzy davies am: Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this. steve davies: In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—? claire bennett: I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years. kirsty williams am: And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward. suzy davies am: Can I just have a quick—? lynne neagle am: Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough? kirsty williams am: I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. kirsty williams am: You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum. kirsty williams am: There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'? kirsty williams am: The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out— claire bennett: Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically. kirsty williams am: If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?' lynne neagle am: Okay. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools. sian gwenllian am: Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now? steve davies: I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. dawn bowden am: I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project? kirsty williams am: Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. dawn bowden am: So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals? lynne neagle am: Excellent, concise question. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. suzy davies am: Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming. suzy davies am: Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those? kirsty williams am: Oh, yes. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately? kirsty williams am: Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes? kirsty williams am: To accountability? suzy davies am: Yes. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors. suzy davies am: And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think? kirsty williams am: Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation. kirsty williams am: Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures? kirsty williams am: Well, because we will still—. kirsty williams am: Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated? kirsty williams am: Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn— suzy davies am: All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that? kirsty williams am: Yes, schools— steve davies: The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. steve davies: We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. kirsty williams am: And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn. lynne neagle am: Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum? kirsty williams am: Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum? kirsty williams am: Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period. kirsty williams am: Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded. sian gwenllian am: Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource? kirsty williams am: We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools? kirsty williams am: Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. sian gwenllian am: With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests? kirsty williams am: Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum— sian gwenllian am: Okay, so it's the timing. sian gwenllian am: So, later on, maybe when this is embedded— kirsty williams am: I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. kirsty williams am: There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally. sian gwenllian am: So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA. kirsty williams am: Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this. janet finch-saunders am: Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity? kirsty williams am: Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute. janet finch-saunders am: How will you monitor it? kirsty williams am: Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now. As we've just said— janet finch-saunders am: How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity? kirsty williams am: Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date? kirsty williams am: Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment. suzy davies am: So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail? kirsty williams am: Okay. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. suzy davies am: And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way. sian gwenllian am: I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear? lynne neagle am: Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 12th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Members who have already participated in a virtual meeting of the special committee may actually not notice any change, except for the fact that some members are also participating from the floor of the House. An additional rubric, that of statements by members, was also added to the proceedings of the committee. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up in the chamber on either side of the Speakers chair. Sound amplification for virtual interventions will be available, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor sound or interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. For those of you joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by videoconference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their microphone and state that they have a point of order. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificates off at the table once the petitions are presented. Chair, what an honour to be the first voice coming to you from the screens on either side of the Speaker of the House. I speak to you from SaanichGulf Islands on the traditional territory of the WSNEC people. I'm presenting a petition, number 431-00215, and it has been certified. The petitioners call on this House to take note of the fact that Canada is the only country with a universal health care system that does not include the provision of necessary prescription medications. They note that the system across Canada is a patchwork that leaves three million Canadians unprepared and uninsured to be able to purchase necessary medications. They call on the House assembled to put in place a system of universal national pharmacare, bringing down the cost of drugs through bulk purchasing. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr. This Senate public bill, been put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan in the Senate, would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad to receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It also has a mechanism by which somebody could be deemed inadmissible to Canada for being involved in the horrible practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill has been before various Parliaments for over 10 years, and petitioners are hopeful that this Parliament will be the one that finally takes action to address forced organ harvesting and trafficking. The second petition is put forward by folks who are concerned about Bill C-7, particularly the efforts by the government through Bill C-7 to remove vital safeguards that are currently associated with Canada's euthanasia regime. Petitioners are not happy about the fact that the government is trying to eliminate the 10-day reflection period and remove other safeguards that only four short years ago the government thought were essential for the euthanasia and assisted suicide system that they were putting in place. The petitioners call on the government to address that, and they are not supportive of these particular efforts to remove vital safeguards from that regime. the chair: Is anyone else presenting petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to statements by members. darrell samson (sackvilleprestonchezzetcook, lib.): Good afternoon, everyone. This spring has been a difficult one for Nova Scotia and the communities of SackvillePrestonChezzetcook. While residents have banded together to tackle the challenges presented by COVID-19, we have also had to mourn the passing of three remarkable local women: RCMP Constable Heidi Stevenson, well known by many in Cole Harbour and the surrounding areas; our own Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, who was based out of 12 Wing Shearwater; and Captain Jenn Casey of the Canadian Forces Snowbirds. These three brave women, who served with honour on land, at sea and in the air, represent the absolute best of us. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Canada needs a prime minister who will create jobs and opportunity, but instead we have a prime minister who is piling up crippling national debt. After five years with this debt, Prime Minister, Canada's national debt is set to hit $1 trillion, with almost nothing to show for it. Canadian workers need and deserve a prime minister who supports our energy sector and gets our natural resources and agriculture products to market, who supports small business and will make our tax system encourage job creation and growth, and who will bring advanced manufacturing jobs to Canada and keep the automotive industry growing. Most importantly, we need a Conservative prime minister who will get the government finances under control after the massive debt left by this prime minister. Since the COVID-19 outbreak, we've seen a disproportionate number of deaths in long-term care homes. I'm thankful for the Canadian Armed Forces who were deployed to the Altamont care home in my riding and four other facilities across the GTA. They include residents being given expired or improper doses of medication; not being cleaned or changed for a prolonged period of time; being forcibly fed, causing choking; being bed-bound for weeks; receiving inadequate nutrition, and much more. Chair, I call upon Premier Ford to place these five homes under a mandatory management order and to appoint a third party manager to address and rectify these violations. I also call upon the Premier to undertake an independent public inquiry into the tragedy we face in long-term care facilities across Ontario. Chair, we need to work with the provinces and territories to set national standards of care for the most vulnerable in our society. I hesitate to interrupt colleagues, but I'm concerned about the petition practice, which, as I understand it, is to summarize a petition but not make a speech. the chair: I will remind honourable members that when a petition is presented, we're expected to give a prcis and make it as concise as possible. martin champoux (drummond, bq): Mr.Chair, I would like to recognize the resilience of Quebeckers concerned for their jobs or their businesses during the COVID-19 crisis. That is why the Bloc Qubcois is demanding that the government present an economic update, and that it do so before June17. In closing, I would like to remind the government that one group is not really contributing to the public purse at the moment. I am talking about the tech giants, the GAFAM group, that have never before been used to the extent that they are now, and that are still not paying a cent in tax in Canada. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Peel region police, paramedic and firefighting services for keeping Bramptonians safe. Organizations such as the Khalsa Aid Society, the Interfaith Council of Peel, the Brampton YMCA, the Prayer Stone Peoples Church, Unity in the Community, Ste. Louise Outreach Centre, Knights Table, the Yogi Divine Society, Vraj Community Service, Regeneration Brampton and many more have made our community stronger during this difficult time. Like many Canadians, I was shocked by this report from the long-term care centres, including one in my riding. Chair, Canada's oil and gas sector is in crisis, made worse by five years of bad policies, red tape and barriers to pipelines. Active rigs dropped by 92% and tens of thousands of oil and gas workers lost their jobs, adding to the 200,000 since 2015. Energy is Canada's biggest investor, and exporting could lead the recovery if there are actions, not just words. On March 25, the finance minister promised help in hours or days, not weeks, but he's letting Canadians down. Sixty-three days later, small oil and gas companies still can't apply for BDC loans, and last week's large employer loan terms are predatory, with interest rates escalating to 14% by year five. The Liberals' death-by-delay tactics are doing exactly what foreign activists in other countries want: to shut down Canada's oil. lyne bessette (bromemissisquoi, lib.): Mr.Chair, in times of crisis, we stick together. In the last weeks, I have been calling volunteer action centres in my constituency so that they can tell me their news. I would like to take the time that I have to highlight the work that community organizations are doing tirelessly in my constituency. The crisis has made us realize the extent to which food banks and meals-on-wheels can not only relieve hunger, but also relieve thousands of shut-in seniors of their loneliness. Let me also highlight the devotion of the volunteers giving generously of their time, particularly the initiative of Mabel Hastings in the volunteer aid centre in Mansonville. Like me, she sends out a daily newsletter to keep the public informed about the many resources available for their support. COVID-19 is bringing out the best in our community and I am certain that, together, we will get through it. Chair, during the COVID-19 pandemic I have been inspired by the courageous work of so many essential workers. I want to thank everyone on the front lines for keeping us safe, keeping us fed and keeping our communities functioning. I want to make special note of one particular essential health care worker, a woman who is a quarantine manager with the Public Health Agency of Canada. Suchi, I love you, I am very proud of you and I thank you for all of the sacrifices you are making. I want to highlight another woman from my riding of ParkdaleHigh Park, Rachelle LeBlanc. When the pandemic broke, she saw the need for protective barriers for small shops in Parkdale, so she set about collecting donations. Rachelle's team has now delivered 25 free COVID protective shields to small shopkeepers in Parkdale, and the team is on track to building 100 more. It's the compassion of Canadians like Rachelle that gives meaning to the phrase we are all in this together. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): Mr.Chair, the school year has been shattered and our graduating classes must be proud of what they have achieved amid the COVID-19 pandemic. The current government has the obligation to promote the values that will lead you to become involved in your communities. I implore this government, which is unaware of the damage it is causing, to immediately announce all the positions that have already been approved under the Canada summer jobs program. Let us have confidence in our organizations, our companies, and let us support our youth, a rich resource that we must equip and motivate. I congratulate all the young graduates in the beautiful constituency of PortneufJacques-Cartier. greg fergus (hullaylmer, lib.): Mr.Chair, this pandemic lets us see what Canadians are made of. This coming Saturday, May30, more than 2,000Christians of all denominations are coming together virtually for prayer and for action. This Saturday, in more than 2,000 churches and homes, thousands of faith-filled Canadians are gathering to pray and act on those prayers as part of Stand United Canada. Then they are going to deliver much-needed support to at-risk Canadians who live in disadvantaged areas. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): The best way to safeguard the truth is to allow people to speak freely, but from the very beginning of this pandemic, the Liberals have silenced dissent. Early on, they propagated the notion that human-to-human transmission wasn't possible. It is undeniable that the Liberal government has put Canadians in danger by silencing alternative points of view and has spread misinformation. They are determining what is true and what is not, what is right and what is wrong, what is in and what is out. I call upon the government to restore the personal liberties that are granted under our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They provide employment and economic stability and are always the first to support community functions and activities, but small businesses have been particularly hard hit due to COVID-19. They have shut their doors temporarily, and now many worry they'll never be able to open their doors again. With the season cancellations at the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music, businesses in the tourism, hospitality, accommodation and retail sectors in PerthWellington are struggling. Every day, I talk to small business owners who can't access the Canada emergency business account, and others who find the convoluted commercial rent assistance program to be out of reach. Chair, the government needs to go back, fix these programs and ensure that support goes to the small businesses that need it. We can go backwards to so-called business as usual, with horrific conditions in long-term care homes, widespread inequality and no real action on climate change, or we can build for better. In Victoria, people in the community, organizations and municipal leaders have been calling for a new way forward. Organizations like Greater Victoria Acting Together; Common Vision, Common Action; and Kairos Victoria are exploring ideas for a sustainable and just recovery. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, in this time of pandemic, it is with heartfelt emotion that I want to highlight the excellent work of all the guardian angels at the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest. From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the entire staff, as well as the retirees who have come back to provide their assistance. I admire the managers, at all levels and in all services, working tirelessly so that their teams can answer the call in this difficult situation. My fellow managers and the management teams of the Support Program for the Autonomy of Seniors, both in home support and in residential care, you have my heartfelt congratulations for the herculean work you have done. My thoughts go particularly to Lyne Ricard and Vronique Proulx, managers working diligently with their teams of professionals to support the seniors living in intermediate resources, as we call them. I also warmly recognize the director of nursing services, Chantal Careau, who is facing the current challenge with passion and humanity. Once again, my congratulations go to the entire organization of the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest for their remarkable work in this difficult and very demanding time. john barlow (foothills, cpc): During the worst of times, we see the best in people. I cannot say enough about my constituents in Foothillsfront-line health care workers, grocery store clerks, restaurateurs, farmersfor all they are doing to keep our community safe and healthy. I want to shine a light on some of our hidden heroes, such as Owen Plumb, a grade 9 student in Okotoks who is using his 3D printer to build PPE for front-line health care workers. He partnered with the Rotary Club and Evergreen Solutions in Okotoks to help with the manufacturing and assembly. There is also Sam Schofield, the volunteer president of the Pincher Creek Chamber of Commerce, overnight built a resiliency website for COVID-19 by building training tools for businesses throughout his area. He also helped develop the Foothills Business Recovery Taskforce, which is a resource for businesses throughout southern Alberta in my riding. Finally, to the employees of Cargill Foods in High River, I know this has been a very difficult time and that many of you have lost loved ones. I want to say thank you for tirelessly doing all you can to protect our food supply and keep food on our table. scott simms (coast of bayscentralnotre dame, lib.): Thank you, Chair. I would like to take this time to salute those who go above and beyond the call of duty to provide care and comfort to others. In my 16 years in the House of Commons I have never experienced anything like this, when we find our lives are at a standstill and there is so much sorrow felt by families who suffer from the effects of COVID-19. Shanna and Fred Patey of Bishop's Falls, along with a few of their friends, spend hours next to the Trans-Canada Highway with just a barbeque and a cooler. There is also Mitch Strickland of Grand Falls-Windsor, who owns Appy's Diner. To all our front-line workers in grocery stores and delivery trucks, and to doctors, nurses, LPNs, paramedics, first responders and, of course, our brave women and men in the military, we will be forever grateful and blessed because of you. members: Hear, hear! the chair: That's all the time we have today for Statements by Members. Before going on, I just want to remind all the members that it is a one-minute statement, so if you don't mind, please time it before coming in because we do have limited time. I'm not here to judge anybody's way of speaking, but try to consider the translators and interpreters to make sure that everyone understands what is said, because they are working diligently to try to get both languages out. In sum, there are two things: please slow down and please make sure the statement is confined to one minute. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow the employees who are providing support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. In the early days of the pandemic and the lockdown that followed, Canadians were told by this government that programs would be rolled out very quickly and that gaps and shortcomings would be changed as time went on. While many Canadians are being let down by this government's response and its unnecessarily rigid programs, Conservatives identified solutions weeks ago, yet here we are, two and a half months later, and many of these programs still have not been improved. On April 26 the Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account could qualify for those types of programs. Chair, we knew from the beginning of this pandemic that we did need to move extremely quickly, and that's what we did. Eight million Canadians have had that as a replacement for paycheques lost because of COVID-19. We also moved forward on the wage subsidy and a range of other programs to support workers and small businesses. What we've done in terms of helping small businesses with the Canada emergency business account has had a massive impact on small businesses across the country, but we understand that certain companies and businesses have particularities that mean it's a little more difficult for them to qualify. We are working with them through their regional development agencies, and we encourage them to approach their local RDAs, which will be able to help them get the money they deserve. They're trying to get patted on the back for actions they took back in March, and yet they are letting so many Canadians down by not making these very simple changes. Will companies that have acquired another company still be allowed to use the wage subsidy to keep workers on the job, yes or no? right hon. We have moved forward on supporting as many of them as we possibly can, and we continue to work on filling gaps. I know the member opposite has talked to me a number of times about a tractor company in his riding. I can assure you that finance officials are engaged with that company to see if there's a way to make sure we're getting them the support they need. He can make this very clear, and save a lot of work, just by including the word acquisition. They're continuing to work with a range of businesses across the country that, for various reasons, are not able to apply for the help we have now. The government has set the parameters to qualify for the rent relief program for companies that have experienced a 70% revenue loss. There are untold thousands of businesses that have experienced a 50%, 55%, 60% or 65% loss that are ineligible but have no capacity to pay the rent. We called on the government weeks ago to have a more flexible sliding scale to allow more companies to access this program to keep more people on the job and more businesses open. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, our public servants and policy-makers have been moving creatively and quickly to try to get help to as many people as we possibly can, with our focus being on the people who need it the most. Obviously, this pandemic is affecting everyone and every business across the country in different ways, but our focus has been on ensuring that those who most need it are getting the help they can. We will, of course, continue to work with the parties opposite and all Canadians to ensure that we're getting help to everyone who needs it, but our focus has always been on the most vulnerable, first and foremost. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. If the Liberal Party of Canada had not taken advantage of the emergency programs, would it have laid off all its staff? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we recognized that a number of organizations and companies were facing difficulties because of COVID-19. People work for those organizations, as accountants, receptionists, assistants or labourers, and those people need to be supported. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party one of those organizations in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Any company or organization that can demonstrate a significant drop in its income, whether that be in donations, receipts, profits the chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blanchet. yves-franois blanchet: Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: In the Magdalen Islands, fishing companies in difficulty and in need of assistance will not have the money that the Liberals are going to take. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have invested in assistance for fishers all across the country. Compared to that company, is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: If the program criteria establish that the Liberal Party is an organization in difficulty, does that mean that the criteria to determine whether an organization is in difficulty are poorly designed? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, all through this pandemic, our priority has been to be here for workers in difficulty so that they do not lose their jobs. yves-franois blanchet: Given the answers from the Prime Minister, let me ask this question: is the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. yves-franois blanchet: Restaurant owners on rue Ontario in Montreal feel that they will not make it through the crisis and that they will never open their doors again. By comparison, is the Liberal Party of Canada an organization in difficulty that will not open its doors again after the crisis? We can but hope. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established criteria for that program in order to help those working for various organizations. yves-franois blanchet: Is there a consensus in the Liberal Party caucus that the Liberal Party is in difficulty as an organization? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we are working every day to help Canadians and workers in difficulty. yves-franois blanchet: Does answering a question put the Prime Minister in difficulty? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, it is a pleasure to be here in the House and to answer questions from Canadians and from members of the opposition. yves-franois blanchet: You are going to answer a question from a Quebecker, I hope. Would those companies not deserve to be saved by the money that the supposedly struggling Liberal Party has taken? right hon. justin trudeau: I am always very happy to answer questions from all Canadians currently sitting in the House. yves-franois blanchet: If the Prime Minister is so happy to answer questions, I hope he will be delirious with joy to answer this one. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established a program to help those working in organizations and who could lose their jobs because of COVID-19. The conditions of seniors as outlined by the military were appalling, but seniors need more than just compassionate words. Will the Prime Minister stop hiding behind excuses and actually show leadership to fix long-term care? right hon. It lays out the divisions of powers and responsibilities, and we respect the provinces' jurisdiction over long-term care facilities. However, from the very beginning, we have indicated our willingness to support the provinces on this very important issue. We need to make sure our seniors right across the country are properly cared for, which is why we sent in the military and why we are there to help the provinces. Philpott, said, We need to stop using jurisdiction as an excuse to not have federal leadership. Now, we know from the military report that staff were afraid to use vital equipment because of the cost. Chair, over the past couple of days I've had very good conversations with the premiers of both Quebec and Ontario on this important issue. I look forward to discussing issues around long-term care with all the premiers of the provinces and territories tomorrow evening as well. Ontarians and indeed people right across the country are deeply preoccupied by what they've seen going on. jagmeet singh: The military report found that cockroaches and flies were present and that food was rotten. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards so that long-term care is governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. Chair, our priority right now is ensuring that we are supporting the provinces in their need to make sure that all seniors are protected right across the country in all those institutions. Going forward, we absolutely will need to have more conversations about how we can ensure that every senior across the country is properly supported. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards and for long-term care to be governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act? right hon. This is something we all take very seriously, and all orders of government will work together to make sure that right now, and going forward, we improve our systems. We need a commitment at the federal level that the Prime Minister will push for things that people need, which is to remove profit from long-term care and to establish national standards. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, I will always be here to stand up for Canadians in all different situations. We are going to work with the provinces, fully respecting jurisdictions, to make sure that, all across the country, Canadians in long-term care are supported as required and receive the services and the care they deserve. The COVID-19 crisis should not be used as an excuse to avoid presenting solutions to the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls committee, in particular by delaying action on the calls for justice. This is the same government that would not recognize it as a genocide, the same government that delayed the United Nations declaration legislation and the same government that is still taking indigenous kids to court. Will this government commit to core funding for indigenous services to help women and girls and ensure that the calls for justice are implemented without delay? right hon. Chair, we continue to work very closely with partners on the calls for justice even as we act in many areas, including better funding for shelters and for victims of domestic violence. We will continue to work with those partners, but people will understand that many of those partners are very focused right now on helping front-line workers, not on establishing the report. We will continue to work with them on the report, but the COVID-19 situation has made that more difficult. the chair: I want to thank the honourable members who are shouting time, but I do have a timer here, and I am taking care of it. He was just talking about the tragic conditions in long-term care facilities in Ontario, and there was a report out from Quebec today. I want to commend the Canadian Armed Forces for witnessing these appalling conditions, putting it in the context of a report, and providing care to our loved ones in these long-term care facilities. The government is saying they didn't receive the report from the department until May 22, but this report came out on May 14. I then forwarded it to the Minister of Public Safety on the 22nd, and that report was then given to the provincial authorities very quickly afterwards. james bezan: I trust that you got the report on the 21st, but the report was written on the 14th, so what happened with that report for seven days? Why wasn't it acted upon? Could you just explain that? Our loved ones were at risk during that entire time. Chair, as we stated, this report was done and given up through the chain of command, and the appropriate leadership did their due diligence. Again, I want to commend our Canadian Armed Forces members for not only the tremendous work they are doing but also for doing their duty. james bezan: That report from Ontario documented appalling conditions, horrific care that was being given to the clients, and also the way that the staff conducted themselves. Minister, do you believe that the infection could have been transmitted from staff to our soldiers serving in long-term care facilities because proper protocols were not being followed? hon. Chair, when it comes to any type of activities that we send our Canadian Armed Forces on, we do our due diligence to make sure that we have the right protocols in place and the appropriate training. This is why we have taken the time to make sure our folks not only did the appropriate training but had the appropriate equipment. We have the right protocols in place, and we will make sure that our members who are infected by COVID will get the appropriate treatment as well. james bezan: Does the Minister of National Defence believe that our soldiers serving in Operation Laser, who have put themselves in harm's way in battling the COVID virus as a war, deserve to have hazard pay benefits? hon. Chair, when it comes to looking after Canadian Armed Forces personnel, yes, we are actually in the process as we speak of making sure that our members have the appropriate hazard pay. I would finally like to come back to the issue of the timeline from May 14 to May 21, when that report was in the department for one week. Will the minister take responsibility for that report sitting on someone's desk for seven days and not being turned over to the proper authorities? hon. Chair, I want to make it very clear: When it comes to the observations that were made, those were immediately reported to the appropriate management of the care facilities and to the appropriate links within the province. At the same time, this report was being compiled and pushed up to the chain of command, and they did their due diligence. As I stated, it was given to us, and on the same day it was forwarded to the Minister of Public Safety, who immediately then sent it to the provincial authorities. Chair, as stated, this will not only be given to the proper authorities but the appropriate steps will be taken now. rosemarie falk (battlefordslloydminster, cpc): Thank you, Chair. Yesterday it was revealed that the Minister of Digital Government has been promoting a fundraising campaign to sue Global News for their story criticizing the Chinese Communist Party. Why is the minister using her authority to support the Communist Party of China and threatening our media and freedom of expression? hon. WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chair: Now we'll go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister aware of the efforts that the United Front carries out on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party to influence how Canadians view the People's Republic of China? hon. The participation in the WeChat group, much like Facebook, is guided by posted the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Is the minister an active participant in the efforts by the Communists to muzzle a Canadian journalist and deprive Canadians of the facts about China? hon. I will say that the individual in question posted something outside of the guidelines of my WeChat group and is no longer the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Falk, I just want to point out that we do have interpreters listening and trying to interpret. joyce murray: I think the member knows very well that the people who post on WeChat are free to post what they choose within certain guidelines. rosemarie falk: Chair, Sam Cooper is an investigative Canadian journalist who has uncovered many different criminal rackets that can be linked back to Beijing. joyce murray: As we all know, community outreach is a very important part of the work of a member of Parliament. WeChat is one of many social media sites regularly used by members the chair: We go back to Ms. rosemarie falk: Chair, when will the minister apologize to Sam Cooper and Global News? hon. Chair, I have been very clear that I do not share the views of the person who posted on my WeChat site, who operated outside of my the chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Chair, I want to assure the member that we are always vigilant in any foreign interference in our national security or issues of political interference in our society. It's monitored carefully by the national security establishment, according to the law as it exists in this country, and we will remain vigilant. Will the Liberals hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated this part of the charter? hon. I think, as the minister has made very clear, she was not involved in this process and has no control over the individual who posted that matter. Will the government hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated their part of the charter? hon. Chair, I want to assure the member that our government remains committed to the rule of law and we will always work tirelessly to uphold the laws of this country. rosemarie falk: Still, was that a yes or a no? I'm not hearing a yes or a no. Chair, to answer the question for the House and to assure the member opposite that our government will always remain committed to the rule of law. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. bill morneau (minister of finance): Mr.Chair, we continue to be transparent with our measures. Of course, we want to make sure that our investments, our economy the chair: The floor is yours, Mr.Deltell. grard deltell: Let me ask my question to the honourable Minister of Finance once more, since he is talking about transparency. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, the Minister of Finance may not know what the deficit is, but one great Canadian does know. Could the Minister of Finance be very clear, very fluid and, above all, very transparent with Canadians? What is Canada's deficit? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I want to be very clear with Canadians: our economic situation is very difficult. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, with all due respect to the Minister of Finance, let me point out that, though he is not very clear, Canada's Parliamentary Budget Officer was clear yesterday. Why does the government not have the courage to state it clearly, as the Parliamentary Budget Officer did yesterday? hon. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, I know that the Minister of Finance is very good with figures. Perhaps he could comment on the statement that the Parliamentary Budget Officer made yesterday, that the emergency assistance must have an end date, and if it does not, we are heading to levels of taxation that have not been seen in this country for generations. What is the government going to do to make sure that Canadians will not be overtaxed after this crisis? hon. When we have more information, we will the chair: Mr.Deltell, you have the floor. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, will the minister commit not to raise taxes after the crisis? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I have said several times that we do not have a plan to raise taxes. grard deltell: Finally a clear answer! However, I'm not convinced that he will apply it. In fact, the Parliamentary Budget Officer himself has said that there isn't much ammunition left without shifting into a large structural deficit, which can lead directly to tax increases. If the Minister of Finance can't even say today what the deficit is today, how can he be credible when he says that he won't raise taxes? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I think what's most important is that during this pandemic, Canadians and companies across the country need the Government of Canada's help. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, all observers are expecting an economic update to know where we're going. Chair, the United States, Australia, India, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and Vietnam have created an economic prosperity group to diversify some of their key supply chains away from China. Indeed, we have been working diligently with all of these countries to make sure that we are keeping global supply chains open during this critical time. I think everyone agrees that keeping supply chains open for medical goods, critical agriculture and essential goods is absolutely essential and the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, this government is refusing to come to terms with what COVID-19 will mean for the future of international trade. Why is Canada not at the table with our largest trading partner protecting the viability of our international supply chains and capitalizing on the opportunities of others doing the same? the chair: Before we go to the minister, one of the members has his mike still on, and I would ask that he turn it off. Chair, Canada has unprecedented access to a number of markets around the world because of the extraordinary agreements that we have made to provide access to customers in those international markets. I have had two meetings with G20 trade ministers on the importance of keeping supply chains the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, is this payback for the Prime Minister snubbing these countries at the original TPP signing? hon. Chair, we have a CPTPP arrangement with these countries, and we are looking forward to making sure that we get Canadian businesses growing into those markets. will begin applying tariffs at the beginning of next year on Canadian exports such as seafood, beef and cars. I want to assure Canadian businesses that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the U.K. Chair, after CUSMA, this government guaranteed to the trade committee that they would publish the objectives of any new trade agreement. Chair, we look forward to working to ensure that those objectives are published as we get into future trade discussions. Chair, the resignation of the WTO director-general at this unprecedented time is concerning for the international trade community. Is the government committed to supporting a DG candidate who is dedicated to the massive reforms needed to get the WTO functioning again? hon. The Ottawa group, led by Canada, is working with like-minded countries on the reform of the WTO. I look forward to making sure that we are leading the way on those discussions with like-minded the chair: Mr. Has the government sought out and received assurances from the United States that no such action will apply to Canadian cattle? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. Chair, we have an excellent assurance of our trade with the United States, which is our new NAFTA trade agreement that we have negotiated, thanks to the unprecedented co-operation across this country. Chair, going forward post-COVID, there are a lot things that will be changing in supply chains. What is this government doing proactively to look at opportunities in these supply chains that Canadian businesses can take advantage of? hon. Chair, we continue to work with countries around the globe to ensure that Canada's supply chains and those global supply chains, particularly for essential goods, for agricultural products, for medical supplies, continue to remain open. Chair, on the agriculture side, canola farmers would like to know the status of canola going into China. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Mr.Chair, I want to assure my colleague that we are continuing to work with our industry representatives, our allies and our trading partners in China. cathy mcleod (kamloopsthompsoncariboo, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Senior Canadian bureaucrats received very credible reports in early January that China was procuring and hoarding PPE. Chair, from the very beginning of the outbreak in early January we were aware of the challenges our health sector would face, and we immediately began to work with the provinces and territories to understand what the need would be and how we could best prepare. cathy mcleod: In April, the minister stated there were not enough supplies in the national emergency stockpile. Can she explain why she approved a donation of 16 tonnes of PPE for China on January 31, claiming it would not compromise our supply? She can't have it both ways. Chair, we are operating in a highly competitive global environment, and the reality is that we need to make sure we have multiple complementary supply chains operating at the same time, which we have been doing in the past weeks and months, to ensure our front-line health care workers have the supplies they need to keep Canadians safe. cathy mcleod: Unfortunately, this question was directed to the health minister, referencing things she actually stated in terms of the availability of our supplies. Before the she signed off on the donationand it was the health minister who signed off on the donationdid she consult with the health ministers in the provinces and territories? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, provinces and territories have their own stockpiles, which of course they use to prepare for incidences of outbreak and other illnesses across their jurisdictions. We've worked very closely with the provinces and territories since the beginning of the outbreak to make sure we can provide any particular additional support. cathy mcleod: Health care workers are now having to look at modified full-face snorkels as an alternative to N95 masks. Did it not occur to the minister that our hospitals and care homes could have used that PPE she shipped out, providing a longer opportunity for them to also get procurement done? hon. Chair, as the member opposite knows, the equipment that was donated when China was in its outbreak was an important donation of nearly expired or expired goods that it was in desperate need of in its effort to try to contain the virus. As the member opposite knows, we've been able to work successfully with provinces and territories to ensure they have what they need. Chair, I would suggest that during February and March our hospitals would have consumed that almost-expired product very efficiently, but I want to move on to another topic. When defending the sale of 22 seniors' homes to the Chinese government, the Prime Minister stated that we have a strong regulatory regime that imposes rigorous standards. Was the Prime Minister completely oblivious to the risks, or was he just too anxious to please the Chinese government when he sold those 22 homes? hon. Chair, the homes the member opposite is referring to are in the province of B.C., and I have to commend the province for the early work it did to protect seniors in those long-term care homes. As she knows, the review we did was entirely separate from the standards to which the province holds the care homes. cathy mcleod: The Prime Minister does not have authority over seniors' homes, which he has clearly stated, but he does have authority over the act in which he approved the sale. Chair, the long-term care homes in each province fall within the jurisdiction of their own particular act, and those provinces and territories are responsible for fulfilling the inspections required under that act. cathy mcleod: Under the Investment Canada Act, the government is obligated to review the sale for compliance. Since the government approved the sale, it is complicit in the care of our seniors in this country hon. That is why we follow the appropriate steps, outlined under the Investment Canada Act, to make sure that any measures we take keep seniors and their well-being first and foremost. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): Mr.Chair, during the pandemic, the government has given money to companies that don't pay a cent in tax because they use tax havens. During the pandemic, the government gave money to Air Canada, but Air Canada never reimbursed customers who did not get the services they paid for. Is the moral of the story that the government thinks that dipping into the pockets of taxpayers to spend money carelessly is no big deal? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, the fight against tax evasion is a priority for our government. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, when I see that it's the Minister of National Revenue answering me, I don't feel like buying a lottery ticket. The Liberal Party used two airplanes in its last election campaign, which seems to indicate that it isn't short of money. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we think it's very important to protect employees across the country and in every economic sector that's experiencing a significant drop in income. That's the approach we've taken to protect people and to ensure that there will be jobs in the future. alain therrien: It's especially important to protect the employees who work for the Liberals to ensure their re-election, yet the Liberal Party has raised more than $7million since the last election. We think that this principle is very important and that this approach must be maintained in order to have a better job market in the future. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, we still don't know exactly how much money the Liberals took from the cookie jar. How many SMEs could have been saved with the $1million that the Liberals took out of the jar and took away from SMEs? hon. We are protecting hundreds of thousands of SMEs through the emergency wage subsidy, the Canada emergency response benefit and all our programs. alain therrien: Mr.Chair, I will propose a choice of answers, or I won't get any. The first possible answer is that when the Liberals brought in the emergency wage subsidy, they set parameters allowing them to use it. The second is that when the Liberals saw the Conservative Partywhich is as rich as they are, but also sanctimonious and self-righteoustake advantage of the subsidy, they thought they could do it too. The third possible answer is that the Liberals hadn't planned to use the subsidy, but they pounced on the cookie jar when they saw it, because that's what they do. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we continue to think it is very important to protect employees in every sector of the economy and across Canada. That's our approach, and I believe it's the right one to protect and preserve jobs across the country during a pandemic. the chair: We are now going to suspend the proceedings for a few seconds to allow the employees who provide support for the meeting to replace each other safely. Chair, when the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces stepped in to provide support to five long-term care homes in Ontario at the request of the premier, they released a report that outlined their findings in detail. Almost 1,000 seniors so far have lost their lives in long-term care homes in Ontario alone, over 25 of them in my riding of MississaugaErin Mills. Can the Minister of Health please update the House on how our federal government is working with the provinces and territories to prevent further tragic occurrences from happening at long-term care homes and to ensure that our most vulnerable seniors are properly looked after and cared for? hon. I believe all Canadians were deeply horrified to read the details from the Canadian Armed Forces on the conditions in long-term care homes in Ontario. I had a very good conversation with my provincial and territorial counterparts last night about the work we can do at a national level to support their important work. We'll continue to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that they get the care and dignity they deserve. I will sadly report that my community of Pickering has experienced the largest number of deaths at a single COVID-19 outbreak location anywhere in this country. Yesterday, we received the horrific report from the Canadian Armed Forces detailing what they witnessed at Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes' Grace Manor in Brampton. The loved ones of those who have passed away, as well as the homes' workers, have asked for a full public inquiry from the Ontario government. I know that the responsibility for these facilities falls within provincial jurisdiction, but on behalf of our communities, can the Minister of Health update us on the work she is doing to ensure that the Ontario government takes action immediately and initiates a full, independent, non-partisan public inquiry and reverses its decision to create a government-led commission that won't even start until September? hon. Chair, I would say that all Canadians were shocked and horrified to hear about the conditions that existed in these particular care homes. We're so grateful to the members of the armed forces who not only improved conditions but also reported them quickly and appropriately to ensure amelioration of those conditions for those particular individuals. We also know that there are seniors all across the country who are struggling with care and with the appropriate level of care. I stand committed to working with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that we do better as a society. We know that there's a role we can play at the federal level with advice, with guidance, with support and, yes, with investments. We look forward to having those conversations about how best we can improve the care for all seniors amongst us. Canadians were horrified to hear the report yesterday from our armed forces about the appalling conditions experienced by seniors in our long-term care homes. Page after page detailed the filth, neglect, abuse and danger our seniors in care are exposed to on a daily basis. Shockingly they face injury and death through missed medications, expired medications, unsterile devices and violations of basic contagion rules to stop the spread of COVID-19. Given that evidence of possible criminal conduct was contained in the military's report, will the minister refer this matter to the RCMP for investigation immediately? hon. We understand in long-term care facilities both seniors and persons living with a disability face unique challenges, and the findings of this report are in fact deeply concerning and completely unacceptable. Considering the severity of this report, we promptly shared it with the Province of Ontario, and the Province of Ontario has initiated an investigation based on the report's findings. Their investigation includes alerting the province's chief coroner who has the authority to alert the police of jurisdiction. We will continue to work with the province to protect those living in long-term care facilities, and we continue to support them through the deployment of our outstanding Canadian Armed Forces and in our partnership with the Red Cross. Chair, that's a shocking answer considering there's clear evidence of criminal conduct and negligence in this. That this federal government is not taking immediate steps to refer this to the nation's RCMP is unacceptable. COVID-19 has exposed critical vulnerabilities across Canada's entire network of long-term care facilities. Not a single province or territory currently meets the benchmark of 4.1 hours of hands-on care per day. As a result Canada has the worst record of COVID-19 deaths in long-term care among 14 comparable countries, with over 80% of Canadian fatalities occurring in these facilities. Chair, the member opposite is exactly correct when he says that those who are hardest hit in terms of losing their lives and the negative effects of COVID are those who are living in long-term care homes. He's also correct when he indicates that COVID-19 has shown us what many of us have known for a long time, that we need to do better in long-term care and supports for seniors. As the member knows, we started those steps some four years ago or so when we began to make incredible investments in aging at home. We know that is one part of the solution, but we have to do better for those seniors who need a higher level of care. I'm working with my colleagues at the provinces and territories to make sure that we come up with a solution that will truly result in better standards for all. Chair, what we need is binding national standards, just like we set through the Canada Health Act in the health care sector generally. Gross fecal contamination, filthy medical equipment, insect infestations, ignoring patient cries for hourswe would never tolerate these conditions in Canada's hospitals. Will the minister move to bring long-term care facilities under the Canada Health Act, or similar legislation, with formal funds tied to acceptable standards of care for our seniors, just like we do for hospitals? hon. Chair, the member shares the disgust and concern of so many Canadians across the country, not only those who have read the report but many of those who have struggled to provide care to elders in those long-term care homes, regardless of the province in which they live. We know that collectively, at all levels of government, we must do better for those people who cared for us and nurtured us all of those years. The member has my commitment that I will work with provinces and territories to find a solution forward to ensure that every person has the right to age with dignity and safety. Davies, you have 15 seconds for another question, a short one, and leave time for a response. These failures are the product of systemic neglect often motivated by prioritizing profit over the provision of adequate care. Does the minister agree that we should not be putting profits above the health care needs of Canada's seniors? hon. Chair, I believe that, when we commit to taking care of people, we must do so with the utmost care that is required. We must all work together to protect those people in our lives who are most vulnerable, whether they be seniors, children or others. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. According to Vaughn Palmer in an editorial in the Vancouver Sun regarding the secret Wet'suwet'en deal, Palmer writes: The hereditary chiefs calculated the two governments would sign despite the objections from the elected chiefs. Can the minister describe another situation in which the federal government negotiated a secret deal of this magnitude with unelected people? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): I thank the member for his ongoing concern and I want to remind him that actually it is in keeping with the Supreme Court decision of 1997 that we were to now begin those conversations with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs who took the case to the Supreme Court. As we've said many times, this is not an agreement; this is an MOU that establishes the path forward for the substantive discussions towards a final agreement, which would describe the future governance and the implementation of Wet'suwet'en rights and title. Chair, if it is a shared commitment, why on the eve of the signing ceremony did the four elected chiefs denounce the hereditary chiefs for keeping them in the dark? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it's really important that the member understand that there was a process for the hereditary chiefs to go back to their communities and discuss with them. Any agreement after the good work that will happen now would have to go back and seek the approval of all of the communities. Chair, the Burns Lake Band members are openly wondering if they're still a band or if the few unelected hereditary chiefs will control everything now. Minister, can you assure them that going forward you will honour their concerns and take the time to listen? the acting chair (mr. carolyn bennett: Actually, the honourable member knows that the next steps include the further and ongoing engagement by the Wet'suwet'en in their house groups and that will include the six elected chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en nation, their community members and many others. Cynthia Joseph, a chief councillor with the Hagwilget First Nation says the MOU between Ottawa, the province and the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs was only shared with her community members on May 9, two days after it was published in the media. carolyn bennett: Walking the path of reconciliation means that we work with our partners and there is a way that they do the work within their communities. It is going to be an agreement to begin the work, but any final agreement is going to have to be approved by all members of the nation in terms of developing a consensus for the agreement the acting chair (mr. Does the minister have any concerns regarding claims by several former female hereditary chiefs that they were stripped of their hereditary status because they didn't agree with the men? hon. carolyn bennett: Again, it is going to be really important that the work take place within the Wet'suwet'en nation to determine their future governance, to determine their way of working with Canada and to make sure the acting chair (mr. For some reason it seems to be a problem to stand up for these hereditary female chiefs who had their titles taken away. Does the minister plan on recognizing band council resolutions denying the authority of hereditary chiefs to sign any future agreements without consent of the elected chiefs and the 3,000 members within the Wet'suwet'en they represent? hon. carolyn bennett: I think the member must understand that, as we begin the work, the nation will do its work and then we will come to the table to determine what the governance would be. Will it be a hybrid model like at Heiltsuk, like Ktunaxa, like some of the communities developing their constitutions, developing their laws and deciding how they will determine their own governance and that partnership with Canada? the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The current restrictions on non-essential travel at the border do not prevent people from claiming refugee protection if they have family in Canada. We have heard from many constituents and members of Parliament from right across the country who are expressing concern about non-status spouses being denied entry into the country because their travel is deemed to be non-essential. I've recently been in touch with all of the provinces and territories because I think it's very important that we have their support for any changes the acting chair (mr. pierre paul-hus: If I understand correctly, Mr.Minister, you are talking to provincial representatives, but a case like that of ChantalTremblay, for instance, is unacceptable. For two months now, she has been trying to bring her spouse to Canada, but it isn't working. Is there a way to issue a directive to border services officers that married spousesit's often marriages with Americanscan cross the border to join their spouses in Canada? hon. bill blair: Just to be very clearagain, I thank the member opposite for the opportunity to clarify thisit is never our intention to separate families, but at the same time, we have imposed appropriate and necessary restrictions on non-essential travel. Our border services officers inquire of everyone coming to that border about the nature of their travel, and for non-citizens who come to that border seeking entry into Canada, if their entry is deemed non-essential, then they exercise their discretion not to allow the acting chair (mr. However, 100,000foreigners have entered Canada, even though the border is supposedly closed. How does the minister explain the fact that 100,000people arrived in Canada by plane? hon. We have imposed very significant restrictions on non-essential travel, but of course there are circumstances where individuals come to this country and their entry into Canada is deemed essential. For example, someone who is providing medical services and coming into Canada to provide those services would be deemed essential, because there is a great need among Canadians for those services. As you can see by the numbers, we have had a very significant reduction in the travel of all non-Canadians to Canada over the past two months. pierre paul-hus: So the minister confirms that the 100,000people who arrived by air were providing a service considered essential to Canada. I'm not talking about the people who crossed the land border, but the people who came to Canada by air. bill blair: What I can tell you is that at all points of entry, including our air borders, we apply the standard that the travel must be deemed essential, and that determination is utilized to see if a person is eligible to enter into the country. pierre paul-hus: We're now learning that the Correctional Service of Canada's investigation into the murder of MarylneLevesque is suspended due to the COVID-19 outbreak. Can the minister direct the Correctional Service of Canada to resume the investigation into the death of MarylneLevesque? hon. bill blair: Again, I thank the member for the question, because we know the concern of the people of Quebec, and the family of Ms. That's why we asked the Parole Board and the Correctional Service of Canada to convene a board of investigation. Clearly, during COVID transmission, the ability to conduct that investigation and to interview all of the witnesses became extremely difficult and has been temporarily suspended, but at the very earliest opportunity we remain resolute to resume that investigation and get to the bottom of it to provide the answers that the family deserves. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, victims of crime are one of the segments of the population most affected by the crisis. For the first time in its history, and to add insult to injury, the government has cancelled all activities related to Victims and Survivors of Crime Week, which was to take place next week. bill blair: Again, at the earliest days of COVID, until arrangements could be put in place, there were restrictions on victims participating. We have put the systems in place to allow victims to present their evidence virtually, either by video or by phone, to ensure that their voices are heard in these important things. We very much respect and support the role of victims in these determinations, and we're making every effort to ensure that they can participate. Chair, yesterday I asked the Minister of Small Business how many business credit availability guarantees were issued by EDC, and I didn't get a number. Money from this program is flowing, and businesses across the country are receiving the important support that they need. Chair, these are large loans, and they require important due diligence and adjudication by the financial institutions. mary ng: I want to assure the member that we're going to do everything possible to support businesses and workers during this very important time. james cumming: How many businesses have received funding under the BCAP co-lending program since March? hon. mary ng: The lending programs, particularly the program to help small businesses, have really helped lots of businesses. Over 630,000 loans have been issued, and this is really helping those the acting chair (mr. james cumming: Unfortunately, lots is not an answer for the businesses that I'm trying to talk to. Can you tell me, for the CEBA changes that were recently announced, when will we be able to see people who have income through a dividend able to apply? hon. Those small businesses that will meet the expanded CEBA criteria are working very diligently with the financial institutions to make sure that they can get access to those loans as quickly as possible. mary ng: The financial institutions are working very hard to make sure that they can make this available to businesses. mary ng: We will work very hard and very diligently to make sure that these businesses and those sole proprietors are supported. mary ng: There is nothing more important than making sure these businesses weather the difficult time of COVID-19, and our measures are the acting chair (mr. mary ng: Today, over 630,000 businesses have received the support to do things like pay for salaries, the 25% top-up for the wage subsidy, pay for rent and pay for insurance and utilities. james cumming: How many dollars are left in the program so businesses can have some certainty that the program will be available for some time? hon. mary ng: I think you will see that the businesses across the country that I have talked to really appreciate that the government has stepped up to help them during this difficult time. These include women with businesses, indigenous-owned businesses and those small businesses all across our communities, all across the country, that are getting the necessary help. mary ng: There are 630,000 businesses that are getting help, and thousands more businesses will be getting help with the expanded criteria. We're going to keep doing the work that we need to help our businesses across this country through this difficult time. james cumming: I heard from a constituent in my riding that they waited for over four hours on the portal for CECRA. james cumming: Finally, the Prime Minister yesterday said that a list of all organizations that have been receiving CEWS will be made public. mary ng: We have committed to making sure that those companies taking the wage subsidy program will be listed publicly. The Canadian Coast Guard is doing a search at this moment following the loss of a vessel off the coast of Newfoundland. From my community, which is a seafaring, fishing community, I just want to put my thoughts out there to the folks of Newfoundland. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): Thank you, Mr. I want to thank my colleague for his comments with regard to the tragic accident off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, where we saw the loss of life in a fishing accident. We have made available over half a billion dollars to processors and harvesters to make sure they can weather this storm. We have made sure that the harvesters are able to access the harvester benefit as well as the grant, recognizing the unique nature of their business and how they are not able to access some of our other programs. Chair, to continue along this vein for a moment, we are still looking at unstable markets for a longer period of time. The plants are filling up, and harvesters are worried that they might stop buying product before the season is complete. What can the fishermen expect, or what kinds of programs can they expect, if the season goes bust? hon. We also know that because of the decline in markets, we've had to make accommodations for the processing sector in order to help them be better able to support the harvesters. We have put in $62.5 million, which is allowing the processors to increase capacity in their refrigeration and freezers so that they will continue to be able to purchase product. As I said earlier, we will continue to monitor the situation and make sure we do everything possible to support our harvesters. Chair, I don't know whether this next question will go to the Minister of DFO or the Minister of Transport. For those who are far-sighted or nearsighted, you just have to put on your glasses to correct it. I don't know about space shuttles, but who knows? You can now wear colour-corrected lenses, but Transport Canada still does not recognize these for use. We have medical standards with respect to a number of different kinds of transportation-related jobs for pilots, mariners and those kinds of occupations, which have to be respected. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, the eligibility criteria for financial support include the need to demonstrate a significant loss of income during the months of March and April, yet several SMEs in the tourism industry can't qualify because their operations start with the tourist season, in late May or early June. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, before accessing the emergency wage subsidy, applicants must meet important criteria. However, as we explained last week, we will be adjusting the wage subsidy until the end of August, and we will be reviewing the criteria. bruce stanton): We're going to go to the west coast and the member for SaanichGulf Islands. My colleague, Jenica Atwin from Fredericton, held a press conference this morning in which she used the term echo pandemic. My question to the minister is this: Will we see direct funding to community mental health services as urgently requested by the Canadian Mental Health Association? hon. Chair, I read the honourable member's colleague's letter just today, and I want to reassure all members that we have invested in mental health supports for Canadians, obviously before the pandemic hit but certainly since we've been living with the pandemic. I'd like to remind all members to direct their constituents to the wellnesstogether.ca website and portal. There Canadians can find online resources, as well as connections to real and alive counsellors and other professionals who can help them with their various concerns. That's not just unprecedented over thousands of years; that's unprecedented over the last one million years. The recognized parties in the House have established standing committees to work, but not the committee on the environment. When will the recognized parties remember the June 2019 emergency resolution that we are in a climate emergency, and start making sure that we hit 2020 commitments under the Paris Agreement to improve our targets? hon. We realize that along with the COVID pandemic, which is the major problem that exists in the world today, there is another problem as well that affects the entire planet, and that is the problem associated with climate change. elizabeth may: My next question will be for Minister Blair, but as an aside, I will say that last answer completely fails to meet the legal requirements of the Paris Agreement to file a new target this year. To save some time, Minister Blair, let's pretend to go back to the questions from my colleague MP Paul-Hus and to your last answer. Could the minister please put out a directive, advice to every CBSA agent on the ground, that when a non-status entry point sees a non-status direct relativehusband, wife, child of a Canadian citizenthat relative be deemed to be entering Canada for an essential purpose? hon. At the same time, we've been working with the provinces and territories, listening to the concerns of Canadians about ensuring that travel across our international border, particularly with the United States, is limited to essential travel. As I've indicated, I've had a number of important conversations and necessary conversations with our provincial and territorial partners. I believe there is a consensus on the right way forward on this, and we're working very diligently to put it in place. I believe our border services officers have been doing an extraordinary job for us in the exercise of their discretion. At the same time, they have been doing the important work of ensuring the health and safety of Canadians at our border. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): Four out of the five homes listed in the armed forces report were for-profit. Will the minister admit that the for-profit model is failing our loved ones and commit to getting profits out of long-term care? hon. patty hajdu: As the member opposite notes, nobody can read that report or hear those stories without feeling absolute horror and disgust and without demanding better for the elders in our lives. As I have mentioned many times in the House, our government remains committed to working with provinces and territories to ensure that every elder person in our community can age with dignity and in safety. Will the minister make sure that the focus of long-term care homes is taking care of seniors and not taking care of owners' bank accounts? hon. patty hajdu: As the member will obviously know, long-term care remains in the jurisdiction of provinces and territories, and there is legislation that rules them as such. As the member also knows, we have stood by Ontario and all of the other provinces and territories throughout this outbreak. jenny kwan: Is the minister refusing to answer the question because she agrees that profit should come before care? hon. patty hajdu: I think it's unfortunate that the member is trying to place words in my mouth. What I do agree with, though, is that long-term care needs to be reformed, and I think all provinces and territories know, and all Canadians know, that we have to do a better job. Is she willing to defend for-profit care for our seniors? Is she in favour of for-profit private health care too? hon. patty hajdu: What I am willing to defend is the right for all Canadians to age with safety and dignity. jenny kwan: To the minister, what is the difference? Why sell out the care of our seniors? Will she commit that she will take profit out of long-term care? hon. Chair, I think the member opposite knows that the only way to actually reform long-term care is to work with provinces and territories, in fact, all levels of government, to ensure that the people who spent their lives caring for and nurturing us can end their lives with caring and nurturing the acting chair (mr. Since the government owns these homes, has the military been sent in there to see what's happening to seniors under their care? hon. Chair, we know that it is important to work with all of the provinces and territories under whose jurisdiction it falls to protect the seniors within those care homes. That's what we've been doing since the beginning of the outbreak of the coronavirus, and that's what we'll continue to do to protect the lives of seniors and strengthen their protection. Chair, work with the provinces and territories to have a longer-term plan so that all seniors can age with dignity and safety. What is the government doing to ensure the standards of care in these Revera homes that they own? hon. Chair, as I have repeatedly said, the jurisdiction for care of long-term care homes falls within the provincial and territorial realm. Chair, we have been there for provinces and territories since the outbreak of the coronavirus, and as the member opposite has clearly or likely heard the Prime Minister say, we will stand with provinces and territories as all elders have the right to age with dignity the acting chair (mr. Do you think that the families of the seniors in these homes want to hear those excuses about jurisdictional issues? Does the minister not think that the families want to hear that the federal government is doing all it can to care for their parents? the acting chair (mr. Quite frankly, I don't think that families care which level of government is responsible for caring for their elders. That's in fact what our government believes, and that's why we have willingly stepped up to say to provinces and territories that we will be there with you to make sure that all seniors in our lives have the right to age with dignity and care. bruce stanton): We will now give the floor to Mrs.Gill, from the riding of Manicouagan. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Mr.Chair, my question is for the Prime Minister who, earlier, clearly told us that the government's assistance is intended for those who are most in need and most vulnerable. I don't know if the PrimeMinister read the newspapers yesterday, but in Quebec, losses to the tune of $4billion are expected until March2021 in the tourism accommodation sector alone. How can I justify to my constituents the fact that a political party, which does not need it, has already seen money from the emergency wage subsidy, when people in my riding don't yet have access to it because of the seasonal nature of their work? These people haven't seen the money that is available through these programs. bill morneau: We think it is very important to protect the country's employees in all sectors of the economy. Through this approach, there will be more jobs after the pandemic, and the economic situation will be better. They are saying that they are protecting the jobs of the Liberal Party of Canada, which does not need the money. Another program was created for them, which isn't quite the same and doesn't really meet their needs. A government whose political wingnot the parliamentary wingdoesn't really need money takes money from the fund, but leaves fishers to make do with less generous programs that don't meet their needs. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that many sectors of the economy across the country are facing challenges. We will continue our approach because we believe it's the best way to protect employees and our economy. The government is saying that the best way to proceed is to give money to the political wing of the Liberal Party of Canada, when there are people who are getting nothing. What am I supposed to tell seasonal workers, who have absolutely no assurances for their future? I can't go back to my riding and say I'm proud of the work the government is doing or our efforts in the House. I have a very hard time accepting that the government is helping employees of the Liberal Party in preparation for the next election campaign, when communities in my region are dying because their economies revolve around a single industry. I can't tell them I'm not ashamed of what's going on as we speak. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, we felt it was necessary to put emergency programs in place in response to the crisis during the pandemic. The emergency wage subsidy is a program that is clearly meant to ensure employees are protected and maintain their relationship with their employer. As for the Canada emergency response benefit, it means a lot to people who don't have a job. We are going to stick to our approach, which is to use consistent criteria to help all employees and all Canadians around the country struggling in any sector of the economy. marilne gill: Mr.Chair, I think the honourable Minister of Finance lives in an ivory tower. However, people who need that money, people who are actually losing money or who don't know if they'll even be working this summer are getting zilch. Are the Liberals going to return that money? Is the finance minister going to help all sectors of the economy, including tourism, fisheries and seasonal industries? hon. bill morneau: Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for her question. The emergency wage subsidy is meant for any sector of the economy where revenues have dropped by 30% or more. We are also providing the Canada emergency response benefit to other employees, meaning, those who have lost their income because of COVID-19. Consequently, we will keep up our approach to ensure we continue to fare as well as possible and the economy works well after the pandemic. bruce stanton): Now we'll go to our last group of interventions, and that will be from Ms. I'd like to begin with a shout-out to the brave waiters and waitresses at our local Earls restaurant and Browns Socialhouse, who have been opened again for on-site dining this week. we're beginning to find our new normal, and it was great to see how small businesses have so quickly adapted their establishments to keep their workers and patrons safe while allowing people to get back to the business of living. Chair, here in my riding I recently had contact with the mayor of Langley City who was wondering if I had any way of accessing personal protective gear, because our local firefighters were running out of stock. Then again yesterday, I spoke with one of our local homeless shelters that is also looking for PPE. Tam is telling all Canadians to wear masks in public, but I'm wondering if the Minister of Public Service and Procurement could tell us where exactly we're going to get all those masks with the current shortage. anita anand: I want to be clear that our priority as a federal government has been to respond to provincial and territorial requests for PPE that goes to front-line health care workers. That is our priority, and we've been procuring goods aggressively in domestic and international markets. We are now actively also exploring ways in which we can assist broader organizations across the country with PPE needs, and that is something that I'll continue to update the House on as we go forward. tamara jansen: A Globe and Mail article revealed that government orders for N95 masks have steadily been dropping. Chair, the number of N95 masks ordered, as reported on the department's website, does continue to fall. Will the minister tell us why we seem to continue to struggle to supply PPE to Canadians? hon. anita anand: It is no secret that we are in a global competition for N95 masks and other supplies, so the Government of Canada's approach is to diversify supply chains internationally and build up and retool domestic industry so that we can have these supplies going forward. In terms of the numbers on our web page, we have short-term and long-term contracts in place the acting chair (mr. tamara jansen: Yes, I understand that a number of Chinese mask manufacturers have been nationalized, and products for Canadians have been confiscated by the CCP government. Is the drop in N95 orders due to, in actual fact, contracts being cancelled? hon. anita anand: On N95 masks, I would like to assure the member and the House that we have multiple contracts in place for the procurement of N95 masks, including with 3M in the United States, whose masks are crossing our border weekly over the next month. We have our embassy and other firms actively ensuring that our supplies from the manufacturing source make their way to the warehouse. tamara jansen: We know many millions of N95 masks have arrived in Canada from China and have been substandard. Chair, as previously explained to the House, about eight million masks did not meet spec by the Public Health Agency of Canada and have been repurposed to some extent in other areas of the system. tamara jansen: In a previous committee, the deputy minister advised us that Medicom was shoulder-tapped by the government to consider producing PPE. anita anand: We have operated in a very urgent way in order to procure supplies for front-line health care workers. It's a multi-pronged approach, and our priority is to get supplies out to front-line health care workers in this time of crisis as quickly as possible. bruce stanton): Just before we adjourn, I think this another mark of accomplishment on behalf of the great team here at the House of Commons. My compliments to all members joining us here in the House and to all members who have joined by virtual conference<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies, and I'm very pleased to welcome Angela Burns, who is substituting for Suzy this morning. Can I also welcome Siân Gwenllian to the meeting? Siân is joining us from her constituency office via video-conference. I'm currently registered as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University, although I haven't done any work for them for some time. We'll move on, then, to item 2 this morning, which is our evidence session on the higher education new academic year allocations. I'm very pleased to welcome David Blaney, who is chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and Bethan Owen, who is deputy chief executive of HEFCW. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions are from Angela Burns. I just wanted to talk about, really, the financial sustainability of the higher education sector because, as we know, there's been all sorts of things going on in the press. So, can I just start with, actually, quite a technical question and ask you what the financial indicators look like for the universities here in Wales, and are there particular indicators that are really flashing warning signals to you? dr david blaney: Well, shall I just start with a couple of contextualising comments and Bethan can come in then with some detail? It's undeniably the case there are financial challenges facing our universities. They result from three main causes: one is the impact of the demographic dip of 18-year-olds, which is deeper and longer in Wales than it is elsewhere in the UK. And, of course, we also have current uncertainty as a result of the Augar review in England, and whether that might play into Wales, and also Brexit. These challenges are not unique to Wales; the majority of the UK universities are actually taking out cost one way or another. Before the Diamond review of fees and funding in Wales, there was a pre-existing funding gap in resource between England and Wales, and even now, that's still the case. So, Welsh higher education institutions are approximately £40 million worse off than they would be in the English system. That's a challenge, and that is a result from a political decision to invest in students, and that's fine. We're not seeing a crisis; we are seeing some real challenges, and there is a distinction, I think, between—. We have to understand, though, that taking out cost to balance the books has a detrimental effect on the capacity. Obviously it impacts on the people who lose their jobs immediately, but there's a medium to longer term impact on the capacity of the system to deliver for Wales. They are taking out capacity; they're not cutting at fat now, they're cutting out core capacity. And so, the range of the curriculum, the range of research and innovation, the range of the contribution that universities can make will be diminished by that. And against that backdrop, the introduction of the Diamond reforms is hugely important—delivery of that is going to be really important—and we are really pleased to see the Minister able to meet her commitments in respect of that. This forthcoming year will be the first year we see an increase in the resource, through us, to higher education. There are some very tired staff in universities, and we've seen some stuff in the press recently about some of the impact of stress there as well. angela burns am: Can I bring you back to the financial element of that? Can I just ask a question: what are the university reserves looking like at present? dr david blaney: Here, I refer to my learned friend. There's a difference between the distributable reserves—I don't have those numbers before me, but looking at reserves, what is more important are those reserves that are available as cash or liquid cash. So, universities have reserves, but a large amount of that is tied up in their estates, so they're not immediately realisable. So, one of the key measures that we're looking at, which is even more important than surpluses and deficit, is the operating cash that our universities are generating at the moment. When we look at operating cash in 2017-18, they were generating, as a percentage of income, about 7.6 per cent, which contrasts with nearly 10 per cent for the same year for English institutions. And that represents their capacity to generate surplus cash to meet their costs, which now, increasingly, include the costs of servicing their borrowings. So, again, because capital funding has not been as available to universities as it was, they've invested in their estates and that's largely been funded by borrowings. The costs of those borrowings have to be met on an annual basis, so that's becoming an increasing proportion of the operating cash that universities have. angela burns am: I just asked that question because I know that about four years ago, the universities were sitting on substantial reserves and were less than keen to deploy them back into actually using them for the students—it was more about building up the war chest, if you like, of the universities. And I just really wanted to have an understanding of how that picture might have changed over the last four years and are they actually skinnier cats now, rather than before. bethan owen: We can get you that analysis, but even four years ago, I think the definition of exactly what's meant by reserves, it's really important to look at what are distributable reserves as opposed to the assets that universities have. bethan owen: And, there are also differences in the way that universities have secured funding for investing in their estates. So, for example, Cardiff University have had a bond rather than borrowing, which you draw down as you're spending. So, in the short term, the reserves of Cardiff will appear as though they have significant cash balances, but all of those are restricted for investment in the estate and, over the next two or three years, will be utilised for that. angela burns am: So, overall, you're painting a picture of a sector that's under a significant degree of financial stress, and this is obviously using your key financial indicators. Do you monitor each and every university, or do you wait for them to come back and tell you what their situation is? bethan owen: We monitor, we receive forecasts, five-year forecasts, and we meet frequently with all our universities now. It varies, depending on the risks of the universities, as to how frequently we meet, but we're actually meeting with every university because even the forecast that we received last July, the changes, even in the 12-month period, are significant enough for us to need a better understanding of what the latest position is. Although it had a turnover and income of £1.5 billion, which had increased, nonetheless it had a small deficit of 0.4 per cent of income in 2017-18, which was an improvement on the deficit the year before of 1.7 per cent, but notably, again, the sector in England were looking at surpluses of 3 per cent to 4 per cent in the same period. The forecasts that we had this time last year were indicating that, for 2018-19, we should have a sector that's roughly in a break-even position, but that has to be caveated with waiting for new forecasts in July, where there will have to be a reflection of the pension costs, and there have been significant changes in pension costs, both for the teachers' pension scheme and the universities' superannuation scheme as well, and those will be significant costs that universities have to build into their forecasts at a time when their income, certainly their fee income, is not increasing, and that is the challenge. angela burns am: Are we going to lose any universities in the next couple of years? dr david blaney: I don't think so. As I said earlier on, we're not seeing a crisis, we're seeing really challenging circumstances for institutions to manage. At the moment, our sense is they are managing them, so one of the things we try to do is to make sure that, insofar as we can see it, we are making sure that the institutions are alert to the challenges they're facing, and are actually engaging those challenges properly, and we are seeing that at the moment. So I think what we will see if the pressure continues unabated is more costs being taken out, so more jobs being lost, more capacity being lost, but that's not the same as falling over. There is always the possibility of structural change within the sector, and that might be one of the solutions that institutions think about, but it's not a policy position, and it's not always a good short-term response to crisis anyway, actually. But I think, as I say, we're in a managed situation, but the challenges are quite acute. angela burns am: When you talk about structural change, are you referring to the fact that certain offshoots or divisions might close? I bring this up because I'm the Assembly Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, and I have had multiple representations from students, and their parents, who are about to go to Lampeter and who've been told that courses are being restructured, there's a massive staff loss, and they have concerns about whether the three-year commitment they're about to make to a course is going to be able to be sustained. So I am trying to drill down a little bit, because I think it's only fair for the students to know what they're up against, and also it's a bit like in the great depression—you can start a run on something, can't you? Because if enough people believe it, then suddenly enough people will stop going to what is an excellent little university, really top-quality in medieval literature, in archaeology. And I'm just talking about one, but I know there are problems in other universities around Wales, so I just wondered if you could comment on that and also what processes you as HEFCW might have in place to protect any student who does find themselves in a situation where their course appears to be disappearing before their eyes. So, if we look at the debate that happened in the Senedd last week, from my reading of the transcript, it was actually quite a balanced debate where pretty much every contributor made reference to the contribution that higher education is making. There was reference to the national student survey scores, and in many ways Wales is the best place in the UK to come and be a student, because you are looked after properly in Wales. But there was also a perfectly legitimate exploration of whether or not there's a crisis, and if you look at the way in which that was represented in the media, the crisis bit stuck and the rest of it didn't. At the point where the sector is trying very hard to recruit students, it's really quite unhelpful that you get that sort of representation. So we do need to make sure, I think, all of us, that we try to avoid a situation where there can be media amplification of a problem that's not actually as acute as the media are portraying it, and that is very harsh. I'm not being critical of the political process here, but it has ripples and we do need to be careful that we don't start a run on this. In terms of the specifics at Lampeter, we understand that there are no plans to close any of the departments, and there certainly will not be plans to pull the rug out from under continuing students. So there's an absolute obligation on them to meet their commitments, and that's a contractual obligation anyway, so it's a legal obligation. But we also have a quality machinery that we operate where we would expect institutions to be able to demonstrate that they've put in place appropriate arrangements to ensure that students can finish their programmes of study. So they're not going to be recruiting students to programmes that they're not planning to continue—they just are not going to do that. And if you think about it in a market context, it would be suicidal for a university to treat their students like that. angela burns am: But I have to ask these questions because the auditor was very clear that there was a material uncertainty in Trinity Saint David's financial plans. dr david blaney: Yes, I understand that, so let’s come back to the material uncertainty. What I'm hoping to try and express is that we have absolute confidence that the institutions will not do the dirty on their students. They will look after their students and if they're recruiting to programmes, they are recruiting to programmes that they are planning to run, and run through to completion. And the expectations that we place on them in terms of our quality assurance machinery is precisely that—when they are engaged in portfolio change, they have to look after the interest of the students that they currently have. In terms of our oversight and monitoring, our primary consideration, again, is the interest of the students. They are the people who have, in many ways, least influence over what happens in terms of the way an institution is managed. Although, they do have a voice and, actually, the arrangements for the student voice in Wales are, again, better than elsewhere in the UK. But, nonetheless, we do not wish to see students becoming innocent victims of difficulties of management and financing. Our institutional risk review process is fundamentally designed to make sure that institutions are grappling with their problems before they become a crisis. So, we have machinery, which has 70/80 different factors and hundreds of questions that we ask twice a year, to interrogate the performance of the institutions and to make sure that we are seeing them managing the issues that they're facing. So, it's not the challenges you face, it's the way you face your challenges—it's a cliché—and, at the moment, they are managing them, but if we were in any way concerned that they weren't, the people who are most at risk in that context are the students and we will be intervening to make sure that they were cited, and we do intervene when we have to. angela burns am: Well, following on from what you said, I've just got two really specific technical questions, then, to ask, because you said that you look across the whole scope to make sure that they are meeting all of their correct liquidity ratios and so on. So, considering how much is invested in their estates, are you happy that each university's estates strategy and its financing is prudent and has appropriate governing-body oversight in place? dr david blaney: Yes, so the estates strategies that institutions operate are overseen by either the full governing body or relevant sub-committees in respect of every institution, so there is proper governance oversight. And in all of those instances, there is staff and student engagement as well in the strategic approach on estates. So, the machinery is in place— angela burns am: Because it's the big thing that drives most of university borrowing, isn't it? dr david blaney: Indeed, it is. angela burns am: So, if our universities are on a sticky wicket, we just need to know that the borrowing that they're undertaking is absolutely prudently assessed and is appropriate. So, as long as you're content, if I can hear you say that—[Laughter.] dr david blaney: Okay. We're content on two fronts: one is that the governance machinery within the institutions is structured appropriately to look at that, but also that if the institutions are wanting to engage in anything other than relatively trivial borrowing, they have to get our consent as well. And what we don't do is second-guess everything, but what we do do is make sure that the governing body, or its relevant committees, have been asking the right questions. bethan owen: Can I just add to that, then? angela burns am: Yes, of course. bethan owen: In asking for the forecasts, we have reinforced this year the importance of universities looking at different scenarios. So, to be looking at the demographic and maybe in the past, where there's potentially been growth in the system and universities have built that into their forecast, we have explicitly asked this year that we are provided—not just the governing body—with the scenario where there is no growth in the income. That's not the core forecast, but a scenario, so that it's quite clear how reliant the forecasts are on that growth, and if that growth doesn't come through, what the contingency plans are for ensuring that all the cost commitments can be met. And we should probably just differentiate between—we have a role before borrowings are entered into, but all the best forecasts in the world can never quite predict, certainly what's happened in the last two years, probably, in universities. So, there are significant borrowings that are now committed to and the key measures we are looking at are universities' capacity to meet their covenants and their repayments under those borrowings, because that's essential for maintaining their liquidity. angela burns am: Which actually, neatly, thank you, brings me to my last question, which is: have any universities broken those loan covenants or been close to breaking them, unable to pay their borrowings as and when they fall due? bethan owen: There was a significant change in accounting standards in 2015, financial reporting standard 102, so most universities had to renegotiate their covenants, but it was because the accounts were looking very different. The accounting standards brought about changes in how income was recognised and how some service concession arrangements, largely student accommodation arrangements, and pension costs, significantly, were recognised in the accounts. So, most universities have had to renegotiate covenants, but we're not aware of any who've had to renegotiate due to covenant breaches, other than one which the University of Wales Trinity Saint David disclosed in their financial statements—that they did need to renegotiate their financing arrangements, which they have done earlier this year, and they have now negotiated new covenants. It's a core part of financial management in universities now that you manage your relationship with your lender as well as with us. Breaching covenants in themselves is different to doing that with your lender being unaware and the factors being within your control. So, again, from that perspective, we have the covenants built into our forecasts, we require the forecasts to show how the university are planning to be within their covenants. The nature of those covenants vary, but most of them require a measure of cash flow, a ratio between the cash generated and the cost of debt, so there is close monitoring that is required because of the borrowing in the system, as well as our ongoing monitoring as well. Just before we move on to Hefin David, can I just ask you what your view, then, is on the statement included by auditors in the accounts of Trinity Saint David that there is material uncertainty? bethan owen: Yes, I'll pick up on that. The material uncertainty largely relates—there is a note in the accounts that explains the factors that are being taken into account, but it largely relates to some significant cash receipts that have been subject to timing delays and the fact that the timing of these is essentially outside the control of the institution. The main delay relates to the receipt of funding for the Egin project, which was due to be received from the Swansea city deal. That funding has been delayed, but the sums due to the university are still due to the university—it's the issue of the timing of those receipts that is causing a cash pressure. Just in terms of cash flows, all universities have to ensure that they are maintaining enough cash in their system to meet their payments as they fall due. Most of their costs are incurred on a monthly basis, staff costs in particular, but the income flows into universities are now less regular. In days gone by, that funding would largely flow from us and that would also come on a monthly basis. A quarter of that money comes in in October, a quarter in February, and the majority of it, half of it, doesn't come into the university in cash until May. So, that's quite a different cash management scenario for universities to manage; it requires holding cash balances to do it. Just before I bring Hefin in, we're going to need to have a bit of agility, as Dai Lloyd would call it, in our questioning and our answers if we're going to cover the ground that we need to cover. hefin david am: How can we be assured that governance arrangements across the eight institutions are sufficiently rigorous but also consistent? dr david blaney: So, the first point to make, of course, is that universities are autonomous, as you know— hefin david am: I've just written 'independent and autonomous'. The university governing body obviously is an important part of the machinery, particularly in terms of generating constructive challenge for the executive within universities. The governing bodies all are expected to behave in a way that is consistent with the guidance produced by the Committee of University Chairs, the CUC guide, which identifies good practice. Just in terms of governing bodies, it's also important that governing bodies engage in a process of continual refreshing, because that gives you a greater variety of perspectives, which is important. But it’s also important they have people who understand the higher education business as well as from other contexts. But I think our view would be that when you get an increase in the contextual pressures that we’ve been discussing already this morning, the role of the governing body actually becomes even more significant. So, we have encouraged the sector, both the chairmen of the university councils, but also the vice-chancellors, to engage in a process of an independent review of governance in Wales. And it hasn’t been hard for us to encourage that—they have been keen to take this opportunity to take stock. The Welsh higher education system is part of a UK system—they don’t want to be a million miles away from the rest of the UK in terms of expectations, but there is scope in Wales, given the scale of the sector, to actually construct something that is more challenging, I think, in terms of expectations, than might be the common denominator across the UK, and maybe some more exemplification. It’s going to be quite hard to do this, but I’m very keen that we engage—and the sector are up for this—in governance culture, because, actually, you can do process checks and you’ll have the right structure of committees and have the right sort of papers going, but, in the end, it’s the dynamic within that room and who’s asking which questions and how well informed they are, and whether it's an open culture or is it a defensive culture—these are really what influences the quality of decision making. hefin david am: And how different are those cultures across institutions? dr david blaney: I think it’s very hard to say. Typically, that’s at a point where there are sufficient difficulties going on that we feel that we need to— hefin david am: Do you have the option to observe at any point? dr david blaney: We can't insist, I don't think. But in the main, actually, our presence would change the dynamic of that anyway, so I'm not sure that's necessarily helpful. But we are keen to see what we can achieve with the sector in addressing these issues of what constitutes constructive challenge. Is your aim to see consistency in the same approaches, then? dr david blaney: I think we’d like to see a consistent minimum set of expectations. In the end, it’s about personalities, it’s about people’s background and it’s about their knowledge. And we have a role to play in this as well, so we have a toolkit that we produce for governors, which, essentially, is a set of information that locates their university in the context of the UK, across a number of factors. So, if they had been told something that is not perhaps as true as it might be by the executive, they can see that in the data. Whether that toolkit needs a refresh—I’m sure it probably does, it’s been there for a while now—. So, part of that is what information we can provide to help governing bodies be properly informed as well. This is quite distant from Government—unlike other institutions, where you can prescribe some of these approaches. dr david blaney: Yes, and in the end I don't think there's any pushback from the sector in terms of wanting to operate in accordance with best practice. hefin david am: So, what about risk appetite? Do you feel that any governing bodies are exhibiting what might be considered to be an imprudent risk appetite? dr david blaney: I don't think so, and this manifests itself in two ways. So, we would see this coming through in forecasts, and we would see it coming through in requests for borrowings, predominantly. Our links into institutions are many and various, and we have our formal stuff, but we all have links into institutions that are informal and we—. One of the beauties of the scale of the sector in Wales is we can see the institutions in a way that they can't hope to in England. But we have, in some instances, I think it's fair to say, helped institutions to think again about some of their aspirations. So, where we've seen things and we think, 'That just looks ridiculously optimistic,' we've just asked the questions. We don't say, 'No, you can't do that,' because they are autonomous, they make the decisions, but we try to make sure that they're asking the right questions. hefin david am: So, would you see that governing bodies are falling short in doing that themselves, in that, where they become strategic decisions that require due diligence, are the governing bodies themselves presenting that challenge? Or the fact you've just said that, does that suggest to us that, actually, they are falling short? dr david blaney: I think there's a mixture of things going on. We have a slightly different perspective and we have a perspective that is very intimately informed in terms of how the institution is performing. So, you have a governing body with a range of perspectives, and you will also have people who are very committed and very enthusiastic about the institution, and just occasionally it's helpful to get a slightly external perspective on these things. So, I don't think it's a shortfall as such, but I just think— hefin david am: The kind of honest broker role, kind of. dr david blaney: The machinery depends on having a body like HEFCW doing some of that role, and the people who lend money to institutions are absolutely clear about that. So, we have relationships with the banks; they come and see us every now and again—typically not to talk about individual clients but just to talk about what we do and how we do it. Interestingly, for example, when Michael Barber got up before Christmas and said there will be no bail-outs of universities, we had banks on the phone to us within a couple of days, wanting just to talk about how it is in Wales and is it still how it used to be. So, it's not really a governance failure; it's just that the machinery includes us. And one of the things, from a distance—, I've been involved in different ways in an institution, and looking at the institutions from a distance. Do you find that the relationships between executive teams and governors is effective, and are they sufficiently robust and challenging as well? Those executive permanent staff and the governors—is there challenge there? dr david blaney: I would say, in the main, yes. Occasionally, we help the governors to ask the right questions, so occasionally that external perspective we've just discussed is helpful in that regard. Actually, there are times when there are tensions between the executive and governing bodies, inevitably—that's not something that's remarkable—and we can feel that as well. hefin david am: And that can become apparent from a public point of view as well—you know, media reports and—. dr david blaney: Yes, sometimes these things can spill, and the governing bodies also include student representation, staff representation, who are typically union reps, and so, you know, there are all sorts of—. I'm not in any way saying that people are indiscreet, but there are all sorts of interests that are sitting around that table that have to be managed within a governance context. And these tensions are not all-out war, but there are sometimes differences of view and they have to be worked through, and that's governance working properly, I think. hefin david am: Okay, which is—some of the work you've suggested will help towards that. hefin david am: And a last question: you've identified one university as high risk, five as medium, and two as low in the short to medium term. You're obviously not going to tell us which, but what I'm interested in is the direction of travel, and whether those that are 'medium'—are they at any point at risk of becoming 'high' in the near future? dr david blaney: I think it's fair to say that the direction of travel is that we're seeing an increased risk profile in the sector in Wales, and it's about the financial pressures that we've already discussed this morning. And that is why the efforts that the Minister has gone to to secure the Diamond settlement, and, indeed, other bits of money now and again, are so important. So, she's doing what she can, and that's really good, but we always knew that, between the point of the Diamond recommendations being made and the full implementation, there was going to be a valley to cross. So, the amount of funding was always going to be under pressure; there's a demographic dip, and there are the other contextual factors we've discussed. And the institutions have been working very hard to try not to take cost out now that they really don't have to take out, because they don't want to reduce capacity, which they'll struggle to recover again when the financial position improves. So, they are seeing deficits, which are managed deficits, where they're spending more than their income in order just to keep the capacity in. hefin david am: And, if you're back in a year or two's time, the next few years, are we confident that there won't be more in the high-risk category? You said you don't see collapse, but are we confident there won't be more in the high-risk category? dr david blaney: Well, I think what I would always say about this process is that it doesn't guarantee 100 per cent accuracy. HEFCW is innately cautious as an organisation, so I'm not going to say we're confident, but that doesn't mean to say we're worried either. So, to answer my question: are we likely to see more in the high-risk category or not? dr david blaney: We might. bethan owen: And, just to add, I think the key bit of that is maintaining the attractiveness of Welsh universities to students, because a large proportion are coming not from just Wales, but from England and internationally—so, that's a key part—and also that our research portfolio is invested in, and that also brings economic benefits. So, I think those are the two that we are [correction: need to be] able to maintain: the institutions as attractive options for students, and that our research capacity is invested in. sian gwenllian am: Just in the interest of transparency, are you able to tell us which universities are in which categories of risk? dr david blaney: We don't publish that; we publish numbers. hefin david am: They didn't even try to—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.] lynne neagle am: Okay. Can you explain your overall approach to the 2019-20 allocations and what your priority for allocations has been? bethan owen: We publish our funding allocations, and we published the 2019-20 allocations on 4 June. For 2019-20, we're allocating £149 million, and, as David said, this is the first year that we've been able to start putting funding, additional funding, in from the Diamond recommendations for investment in the sector. So, that means we've been able to increase our recurrent teaching funding by £7 million—not a significant amount, but it's a start. And we have maintained QR, which is our funding for research, quality research, and postgraduate research, at least at the same levels of £76 million, as it's been that in previous years. We've increased part-time funding by £1 million to £26 million, and we've started to increase support for expensive subjects—that's medicine, dentistry and conservatoire provision—and higher cost subjects—those are the sciences and the STEM. So, we made a start on that and increased that support by about £6 million to £20 million in total. And, in addition to that, we have strategic funding that we're maintaining for Reaching Wider projects and the Sêr Cymru project. And then, in addition to our recurrent funding, we have had strategic funding in our remit letters for the last two years. So, we're developing programmes for civic mission, community engagement, collaborations between higher education and further education, and, more recently, we had funding at the end of March to start to implement the recommendations of Graeme Reid's report for research investment, and also for developing mental health and well-being. That strategic funding is very welcome, but to be able to build those activities into our core funding, which we hope Diamond will bring, would be more sustainable for institutions. How do your allocations to the 2019-20 academic year support and incentivise collaboration between HE and FE? dr david blaney: So, there are probably two dimensions to this. First of all, we have provided £3.5 million of separate funding specifically targeted to improve and increase collaboration between HE and FE. So, we put out a circular inviting proposals for that, and it was competitive, so we funded what was the best of the proposals, and we constrained it to be available only to pump-prime new activity or to add value to existing activity, but not just to keep things ticking over. We had seven bids submitted from across the three Welsh regions on a whole range of activities, which we probably haven't got time to go into now. I've got a long list here, but, for example, in south-east Wales, the University of South Wales is leading on a bid partnering with Cardiff University, Cardiff Met, with the Open University and all the FE players in the region. We tried to get it within regions, because that's how you get the biggest impact for learners in the area and also for smaller enterprises in terms of innovation work. And then we direct fund a couple of FE institutions for delivery of higher education for historical reasons, and we also have our funding going through to support franchise activity between HE and FE. There are about 5,000 students who are studying HE programmes under franchise in FE colleges in Wales, and our funding method has, historically for some time now, protected that money. So, we try to prevent universities from taking the money out of franchise and onto campus, because we think it's important to try to encourage local provision within particular localities. And, certainly in areas where public transport infrastructure is perhaps not what it might be, for people to move to universities can be quite a disincentive, so—. Then, finally from me, the council's remit letter for the 2019-20 academic year from the Minister does ask you to consider how you'd increase openness and transparency around the use of fee income. So, what are the issues here, and how will you take this forward? bethan owen: The reporting of the income and expenditure is largely provided, probably more so in narrative form in the accounts and the financial statements and annual reports of institutions. A number of institutions also provide graphs and more easily accessible information to understand the income and expenditure of universities. There are examples of good practice across the sector in presenting as simply as possible what the income sources are for universities and how they spend their money. And we're going to be working with the Welsh universities and sector bodies to improve the accessibility of that information for Welsh institutions. More transparent reporting of income and expenditure, and not just fee income, is actually very important for understanding how income cross-flows work in universities. Some reasonably simplistic analyses can assume that all the student fee just covers the direct costs of academic provision, but there's much more to the student experience than that, so there are costs: there are the infrastructure costs, the student support costs, even the community engagement and all the research activities bring benefits to the teaching and fee provision. So, more transparency of all the universities' income sources and expenditure and a better understanding of the income cross-flows and why you can't look at universities in isolation of student provision and research, you have to look at the whole—so, we'll be working with them to improve that information. We're going to go to Hefin David now for some questions on part-time student funding. hefin david am: Part-time student numbers are bucking the trend in Wales, as I understand it, and we are seeing a bigger increase in Wales of part-time numbers than elsewhere in the UK. How is that going to be sustainable within current arrangements? bethan owen: We've allocated £26.5 million in 2019-20 to support part-time provision, and we have been able in 2019-20 to fund some growth. So, there is growth in that funding to allow those institutions and incentivise those institutions who have recruited more students than last year to continue to do so. That came at an overall additional cost of £1.9 million, and, based on what we're hearing from student support, we're expecting to see that requirement increase. So, it's one of the areas where we'll need to look at how we prioritise Diamond funding. And at the moment, our intention—but subject to knowing the quantum of it—is to continue to support and fund growth in part-time provision. hefin david am: So, is it possible—? With the Welsh Government's policy of developing lifelong learning, is it possible that will be ever spread more thinly? dr david blaney: That is the challenge, and there's a piece of work that we have in our sights to look again at part-time and what it is and what the various drivers are. There's a temptation, I think, at times, to see it solely in terms of skills for an economy, and it is important for reskilling and upskilling, but actually, it's important for other things as well. If we see higher education solely in terms of skilling an economy, we've missed an important part of the contribution that higher education makes. But part-time is really quite difficult, because there's part-time that is about upskilling, part time that's about reskilling, there's part-time for social purposes, there's employer-supported part-time, there's student—. dr david blaney: Well, there is a sense that they are more price sensitive, yes, and so the support regime that the Government is putting in place is important, and that probably has made a difference to the numbers of part-timers entering the system this last year. But I think we need to stake stock of what is important about part-time, what the market will deliver, what the market won't deliver, what we should fund and so on. And there's a complexity around all that, as I've indicated, which we need to do a bit of work on with the sector, with the student body as well, just to take some stock of this over the next year or so. hefin david am: Could we end up seeing significant fee increases for part-time students? dr david blaney: My sense is we won't. The Government wishes us to monitor, so we monitor, and that in itself is not straightforward, actually. There's a limit to how much a fee increase would be acceptable to the part-time market. I don't think we'll see massive fee increases; we might see a bit, but we won't see masses, I don't think. We've got some questions now on funding for research and innovation, and also we'd like to talk a bit about a replacement for European Union funds. If I could turn specifically to research, we know, of course, that both the Diamond and Reid reviews called for QR funding to be maintained in real terms, but the allocation is exactly the same for 2019-20 as it has been for the past nine years. Have you carried out any kind of assessment of the impact of this level of research funding on universities and, indeed, on the Welsh economy? dr david blaney: I'm sorry; I missed the beginning of that because I couldn't hear this headset. I was talking about the Diamond and Reid reviews at the beginning of my question and the fact that they had recommended that QR funding should be maintained in real terms. The reason the sum hasn't increased is because we haven't had enough money to be able to increase it and still meet the obligations we have to other bits of the HE system. Both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid were very clear about the importance of being able to invest in our QR research funding, for a number of reasons. The capacity of the sector to be able to respond to funding opportunities elsewhere in the UK and across the rest of the world is itself determined by the size and the strength of the research base, which is sustained by QR funding. If they go for UK-based competitive research funding, that is typically constructed on the absolute assumption that QR will be part of that mix. So, they tend to fund to 80 per cent of the actual cost of the research, with the expectation that QR will plug the gap. And we know that, although the Welsh research base is extraordinarily productive, and really is punching above its weight in many ways—and I mentioned earlier the impact of the research base in the last research excellence framework—we know that, actually, it could do so much more, if it just had more scale. So, we fully endorse the reports from both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid that QR is important, and it's important also to be able to allow institutions to invest in research areas that emerge over time. It's almost impossible for a body like us, far less the Government, to know where these emerging strengths are going to come from, and QR provides the flexibility for institutions, which is absolutely fundamental to keeping the research base dynamic. sian gwenllian am: Therefore, you do have concerns that this isn't increasing—you have that concern of a lack of increase in the level of investment. But has any particular assessment been made of the impact of not increasing that funding? dr david blaney: So, there is—. Graeme Reid's report produced an assessment of the correlation between QR funding and capacity to generate funding from other sources, and there's a very close correlation— sian gwenllian am: Has HEFCW done any assessment to look at the effect of underfunding research, to all intents and purposes? dr david blaney: Not directly. sian gwenllian am: Your remit requires you to encourage universities to continue to develop one particular element of research, which is educational research. How does your allocation for 2019-20 contribute to that in terms of pedagogy and educational research specifically? dr david blaney: Bethan, did you want to say something on this? bethan owen: I was just going to add that, when we look at the funding that comes into our sector in Wales, compared with the rest of the UK, it's easy to see from the figures that our percentage of income that comes from research is smaller than in England, so the figures show that we receive less of the money that's available, which is a factor that results from us having less QR as a percentage, so we're in a situation where we get less of that UK funding that's available as well. sian gwenllian am: So, there's a knock-on to that; that's what you're trying to say. But from the point of view of my question on educational research—? dr david blaney: So, we have provided funding in 2017-18 and 2018-19 to WISERD Education, which is a research collaboration between a number of the Welsh universities, specifically looking at educational issues, and we're providing additional funding to that to add value to the Welsh Government's existing evaluation of the progress of pioneer schools in developing the three-to-15 curriculum in Wales. I won't go into the full detail of it now, but it's a five-partner project feeding into this with researchers from Cardiff, Cardiff Met, Trinity Saint David, Aber, Bangor and the University of South Wales. So, it's a collaborative effort, and we have, in the past, also funded WISERD Education, so it's an important research facility and increasingly being used, I'm delighted to say, by Welsh Government in underpinning its own policy thinking. sian gwenllian am: And likewise, in 2019-20, there will be allocations specifically for this. Well, could you provide the remit letter from—[Inaudible.]—do that? You have to do everything in the remit letters. dr david blaney: We do what we can to pay due regard to the remit letters, as the wording goes. sian gwenllian am: And then turning to the impact of the loss of funds were we to leave the European Union. Of course, this is going to have a far-reaching impact on future research, and the Reid review has made recommendations to mitigate this impact. So, what assessment have you made of how allocations will be able to help universities to transition away from EU funding? dr david blaney: So, again, the Reid review has done a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of an impact assessment for us. There has been an additional £6.6 million allocated for research very recently by the Government, which we have put out specifically in line with some of the recommendations from Reid. So, that's a start, but that's not sustainable funding, and it's not enough, really, but it is a good and welcome start. Reid was also not just talking about the money, but also talking about the way in which the Welsh research base both represents itself and also engages with UK-wide developments. And in response to that, we have recently issued our own vision for research and innovation, which was developed over a number of months, following the Reid report closely, working with stakeholders, including the Welsh Government, in order to try and set a vision for how we respond to the challenges facing research in the future, including the reduction, potentially, of access to EU funds. A lot of that requires investment in the Welsh research base in order to be able to go for competitive funding at a UK level. Since it seems possible at least, and possibly even likely, that any money retrieved from not having to invest in the EU will sit in London rather than necessarily being devolved to the devolved administrations—we understand fully the Welsh Government's position on that, and we don't disagree with it. But either way, we need a research base that's able to compete, and that's why the investment recommendations of Reid are so important. I think Reid was saying that there may be pots of money out there that aren't being accessed at the moment by Welsh universities. Are you able to help then within that process? bethan owen: One aspect that we do intend to fund—and this is from Diamond, as well as Reid—is to place funding back into the system for innovation. We're consulting currently, with the intention, if the funding is available to us, clearly, in the year 2020-21, to provide £15 million back into the sector in innovation funding. sian gwenllian am: Is that part of the UKRI funding? There is some £7 billion in the hands of that organisation, as I understand it, and there may be some possibilities there too. bethan owen: That £15 million will be money that comes from us, but the intention is that the money will go in in order to improve universities' ability to access that funding from UKRI. So, Innovate UK would be the part of UKRI—and that we improve our ability to get funding from outside Wales. And, then, Graeme Reid says the same thing in terms of research—that we need more funding to do the same thing there. dr david blaney: And, then, there's also the recommendation from Reid that Wales needs to be better embedded in the conversations that are going on on a UK-wide basis, so the Welsh Government has established a presence in London in respect of research, and we have a colleague in HEFCW who is fractionally embedded in the United Kingdom Research and Innovation specifically to respond to that recommendation. And that is actually paying dividends; we are strengthening our relationship with the UK machinery, which is essential if we're to understand where they're heading and what their funding bids are all about, and even to be able to influence those. lynne neagle am: Okay, Siân? sian gwenllian am: So, as far as research is concerned, it's not all doom and gloom. There is money coming in and if the Government, as it is able to, can find money and can invest in this area, then that will help. Just a couple of questions from me, then, before you close: what is your recent work on the 'basket of goods' show regarding student accommodation costs? And have any institutions used their 2019-20 fee and access plans to make commitments to more affordable accommodation for under-represented groups? dr david blaney: First of all, on the basket of goods, the work we're doing now—we're currently in train in terms of analysing the data in respect of the basket of goods, so this is slightly premature, but our early look at the data indicates that there are no increases in costs, accommodation or other, that would cause us concern. So, it doesn't look like institutions are succumbing to the temptation to up their income streams from other costs. In terms of the fee and access plans, the sector has committed over £28 million of investment in student support-related activities from the fee and access plans, and that includes, in many instances, bursaries that are designed to help students cope with the costs of accommodation and the cost of living more generally. The support is provided for a range of purposes, but a couple of examples, just very quickly: Trinity Saint David, since we've talked about them a lot today, they offer £1,000 bursary to care leavers, which is in addition to local authority support for care leavers. Bangor also offer targeted support for care leavers, and these are often also extended, so they apply not just in term time, but throughout the holiday time as well, because people still need to live during the holidays. And just one final question from me then, going back to Trinity Saint David: are you concerned that the governing body of Trinity Saint David has taken decisions that have led to that material uncertainty, and is that unprecedented in Wales? dr david blaney: My view is that the decisions that the governing body made were, in our view, perfectly rational decisions to have made, given the information they had at the time. So, what's happened is that a number of unforeseen events have arisen, which, actually, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to have foreseen, and it's just a combination of these that has caused the cash pressure. So, I don't see this as a governance failure, and they are engaging with those challenges. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you both for attending and for answering all our questions this morning? You did say that you would give the committee a note on reserves for the last four years, so we'd be grateful if we could receive that. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Deputy Minister requesting further information for our scrutiny of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from me to the Children's Commissioner for Wales also asking for further information to pursue our scrutiny of the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education asking for an update on the framework for young people educated other than at school. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to propose that we resolve to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting and for the whole meeting on 10 July<doc-sep>I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—? sharon davies: No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement? nick williams: Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions? sharon davies: When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools. lynne neagle am: So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in? sharon davies: I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system. nick williams: May I answer this in Welsh? lynne neagle am: Of course, yes. nick williams: The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS? nick williams: I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. lynne neagle am: And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales? sharon davies: I would say the majority have. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners. nick williams: Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. sian gwenllian am: May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions? sharon davies: In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools. sian gwenllian am: Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—? sharon davies: I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system. sian gwenllian am: But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act? sharon davies: Yes. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. sian gwenllian am: And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority? david hopkins: Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through. sian gwenllian am: And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions? sharon davies: As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on. nick williams: Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners? nick williams: Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa. janet finch-saunders am: Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. nick williams: But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on. In your view— lynne neagle am: Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. , how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education? sharon davies: As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible. david hopkins: I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. , that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what . It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that. lynne neagle am: And which authority is that? david hopkins: I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point. sharon davies: A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision? nick williams: Capacity— janet finch-saunders am: What? Sorry, I missed that. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status? nick williams: Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site? nick williams: I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision. janet finch-saunders am: And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent. nick williams: The schools would have to make sure that— janet finch-saunders am: But is that happening, do you know? nick williams: Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools? nick williams: Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. sharon davies: In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition? sharon davies: Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition? janet finch-saunders am: I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means. janet finch-saunders am: I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through— lynne neagle am: I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even. sharon davies: I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home. janet finch-saunders am: Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.] sharon davies: Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. janet finch-saunders am: What about if they're in a private setting? nick williams: If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using— janet finch-saunders am: Is that widespread around Wales? nick williams: I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. david hopkins: Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. lynne neagle am: What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee? nick williams: I think it's, you know— lynne neagle am: It was the WLGA paper, actually. nick williams: It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that? david hopkins: In general terms—. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess. sian gwenllian am: And does that worry you? david hopkins: Me? sian gwenllian am: The WLGA. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern. sian gwenllian am: In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered? nick williams: To be honest, we are— sian gwenllian am: In the PRUs? nick williams: To be honest, they are broad and balanced. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way. nick williams: They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. sian gwenllian am: No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements. sian gwenllian am: With the curriculum? nick williams: Yes, and in terms of collaboration. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. david hopkins: If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. dawn bowden am: There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that. nick williams: We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system. sharon davies: It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have. dawn bowden am: And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that? sharon davies: I think it's limited. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS? nick williams: Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. sharon davies: Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support? nick williams: Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. sian gwenllian am: But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. lynne neagle am: Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs? sharon davies: I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—? janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales? nick williams: Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking— janet finch-saunders am: What provision in the north? nick williams: I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south— janet finch-saunders am: Oh, sorry, north of Powys. nick williams: For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue. lynne neagle am: Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue? david hopkins: I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school. dr ian johnson: I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that? dr ian johnson: I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to. sarah stone: What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions? dr ian johnson: Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available. liz williams: I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. sarah stone: And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue. dr ian johnson: Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS? sarah stone: Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to. dr ian johnson: I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education? sarah stone: So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well. dr ian johnson: I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed? liz williams: I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important. sarah stone: And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture— janet finch-saunders am: It's very bad in north Wales. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. liz williams: Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—? dr ian johnson: The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be. dawn bowden am: I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision? dr ian johnson: I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done. dawn bowden am: I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals? liz williams: Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. dawn bowden am: You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common? liz williams: Absolutely, yes. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that. dawn bowden am: And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. dr ian johnson: If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all? dr ian johnson: We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that? sarah stone: Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. dawn bowden am: Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be? liz williams: I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about. dr ian johnson: There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population. sarah stone: Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this. I think some of them have been covered, but— sian gwenllian am: Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded? dr ian johnson: I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system. sian gwenllian am: And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support? dr ian johnson: The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at. liz williams: And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well. Any other questions? sian gwenllian am: Well, unless you want to sum up—? dr ian johnson: Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come. lynne neagle am: Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area? liz williams: Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations. Ian? dr ian johnson: I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations. sarah stone: I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

The key focus was on articulating the big ideas and ensuring consistency in the core content. The specific wording of the "what matters" statements would be addressed in secondary legislation, with the requirement to include them on the face of the Bill. This emphasis on the importance of mental health was highlighted. Lessons from the introduction of the Scottish curriculum were discussed, including challenges related to assessment and content. Professional learning and preparation for the changes were also emphasized. Funding issues and the need for training in PRUs were raised, with the committee seeking broader measures to support schools and local authorities. The opposition party accused the Minister of Digital Government of supporting the Chinese Communist Party and threatening media freedom, but the Minister clarified that community outreach on social media platforms like WeChat was a regular part of their work. The importance of having a body like HEFCW to monitor and connect different parts was suggested, along with the value of diverse opinions and input from various stakeholders. Despite differing opinions, the goal was to find a proper resolution.

What were the main topics discussed in the meeting regarding "what matters", the model of Scotland, funding issues, a particular fundraising campaign, and including more people in risk management?

project manager: I've made a presentation but I'll open it on the Smartboard , so we can all see it . project manager: So it's in the project documents because that's what we can find here . So I'm the Project Manager , so I had to fill it in , marketing: 'Kay . we'll do the opening and then we'll meet each other , what we already do , so , that's not very much trouble . I'll I'll show you the the tools we have here , so that we can all use them . marketing: project manager: We'll discuss about our first ideas about the project , and then we'll close the meeting , and then we can individually do our things and then we'll get back here . And Well it has to be a have the the right the right buttons on the right place , that kin those kind of things . so every time we we'll do some individual work , get meeting , talk about it , and then go into the next phase . well as I just showed , there's a project management folder , a project document folder on the desktop . You just click on the on the folder and you open the everything you you put in it with your laptop . and the w the r the rest also works the same so when you open a notepad you you just get your things , you can draw . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: Maybe you should try to write on the on the big white project manager: Yes I will industrial designer: Does it ? Yeah . project manager: just we can start a new one , and we just go on , and don't throw anything away . So we all are going to draw a nice animal on this board , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: not my idea . So I'm to going to have to draw a kangaroo , industrial designer: project manager: but I'm going d I'm not going to . industrial designer: I hope this was part of the assignment and not your project manager: Yeah , 'kay . project manager: but I am the Project Manager , industrial designer: project manager: and officially this is my idea . project manager: what ? marketing: We're losing time , but project manager: Ah the first the first meeting is just a bit loose , loosen up , a bit meeting each other industrial designer: so start marketing: Alright . project manager: I hope our Industrial Designer does this better because this is industrial designer: Don't count on it . marketing: Do we have to guess ? project manager: Yes yes marketing: A hippo ? project manager: guess . marketing: project manager: We're going back and now our Industrial Designer can draw its most favourite animal . project manager: what kind of animal is that then ? industrial designer: I think can I say it ? marketing: Yeah sure . marketing: project manager: No no save it and start a new save it and start a new black doc a blank document . industrial designer: These are very important documents , of course , these drawings , project manager: Yeah well we have to save everything marketing: Yes right . project manager: So well you should try it but marketing: I should have made mine a white rabbit . marketing: project manager: What the industrial designer: It looks like an project manager: just a duck . project manager: Is it a duck ? marketing: You're standing in front of it , industrial designer: It's it's project manager: Is it a plane ? marketing: I can't see it . Yeah it's a bird , but what kind of bird ? industrial designer: project manager: It doesn't draw circles that easy . industrial designer: But we have do we have to name the specific species of the bird ? marketing: Release your anger . project manager: and then user interface: marketing: project manager: And then a a new blank document for . industrial designer: Why do I have to do the difficult tasks ? project manager: No well first industrial designer: pen project manager: yeah . project manager: And then you go to format I think , and current colour industrial designer: current colour . Just a wa that's the way we do industrial designer: project manager: it's quite easy . project manager: industrial designer: Well if this isn't obvious project manager: Well well marketing: Just save it . project manager: Well it's terrific , eh ? user interface: industrial designer: Thanks for this exercise . We're we want to sell it at twenty five Euros internationally so but we dunno what exactly th i it is in dollars , but twenty five Euros . industrial designer: So project manager: we want to keep it our costs at twelve and a half Euros so , keep that in mind when we talk about our materials an f and stuff , and marketing research . project manager: Now then we all we can sit down and discuss what do we think about our current remote controls , first about design about aim in the market etcetera ? marketing: Right . We can take notes and Well who has some remarks about the current remote controls ? Please ? industrial designer: Well I I didn't have to prepare anything about project manager: No I did . industrial designer: it's not , it's it's not my task to talk about experience with current remote controls , but project manager: Well just w we're four if we if we would just have one then marketing: I think it's im it's important to look at the remote controls of our competitors . marketing: On our corporate site I saw a new D_V_D_ player we're gonna produce . marketing: Maybe it's important to make it compatible with the D_V_D_ player project manager: That would be a nice idea , yes . marketing: so you can use your television and your D_V_D_ player with the same remote control . marketing: Furthermore it's important to make it acceptable for the whole world , for different cultures , maybe , because we want to we want to well fifty million ? project manager: Yes fifty million is our aim to a profit , so . marketing: Yeah yeah user interface: marketing: so a lot of people have to be able to use it . industrial designer: No but the b the buttons have to have to have international recognisable buttons and marketing: So user interface: Easy to learn . project manager: I'll make notes and then maybe well I'll put it in the project folder when I'm done just now . project manager: Y y you don't use the half of them that's that's user interface: Precisely . marketing: Maybe we could make one button to switch between D_V_D_ player and T_V_ user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah so it doesn't become too complicated with too much buttons and marketing: Yeah right . project manager: Yep , and maybe we do we even have more than just a D_V_D_ player . Don't we have other ou user interface: Yeah we should make it compatible perhaps with everything we use , we we make ? project manager: . marketing: Yeah so but th that's kind kind of standard T_ television so it also works on that . user interface: And I think the people who who will buy our remote already have some experience with remotes . industrial designer: It doesn't project manager: It doesn't have to be , but we can . user interface: industrial designer: it doesn't have to be user interface: W well it's a n it's a new remote and you don't buy a remote if you don't have anything to to control with it . user interface: Yeah alright , but marketing: We need to to keep it consistent with other d project manager: Yeah because we look at competitors industrial designer: Well . project manager: and w if we pick up the good things about that and give it a nice design industrial designer: . industrial designer: you can make it triangle shaped , user interface: Well we we could make more more oval or something , and and industrial designer: but that's not very recognisable . project manager: Oo industrial designer: Oval ? project manager: N we can use it as a as a game pad . user interface: Yeah or so industrial designer: I project manager: So one hand has the beer , so the other hand user interface: Well yeah it's new . user interface: but young people want something different marketing: No user interface: and it is project manager: Well i we already marketing: Yeah but it's quite important that it fits . project manager: one of our aims is that it has to be original and trendy so user interface: Yeah . But you still have to know it's a remote and not another project manager: Well there has been done a lot of researches about remotes we have to we can imagine user interface: Yeah alright . project manager: for me personally I have a a lot of remotes at home but those ones that have a a round ending and well just an square middle I don't like to use them . project manager: When it falls over it and I just have and then the button that I use most has to be here . project manager: It f it fits your hands and then you just push the button that you use most with thumb . marketing: Nah I don't agree with the long box shape industrial designer: Why not ? marketing: it it has to be custom made for the hand . project manager: Tho tho those new D_V_D_ players on the market do have those . industrial designer: But it does fit in the hand if you hold it like this , and you can make it another shape , marketing: Yeah but if you shape it industrial designer: but then you have user interface: No if y if you look at new Phillips D_V_D_ with their remotes pl players they they are the new remotes aren't box shaped . marketing: industrial designer: W no w what else ? marketing: No that's ol old fashioned . industrial designer: Yeah well but what what what do you suggest then ? user interface: Yes marketing: I can imagine that us user interface: Well most of of them are are somewhat thicker at the end , and get yeah thinner towards the the other end . industrial designer: but it's still then the the long box , but then with some round round forms in it to fit your hand , user interface: Yeah it project manager: Well marketing: ? project manager: A it h it has it it has a that's tha th th shape that it fits your hand . industrial designer: but it's it's still Yeah yeah al alright project manager: That's industrial designer: but but it's still it's still sort of box , yeah . user interface: Yeah yea industrial designer: It it has round forms marketing: Well industrial designer: but it in the end it's still the box , so that's what . industrial designer: Yeah yeah I understand , but no no I don't mean an entire box like completely square marketing: It shouldn't be too boxy , you know . industrial designer: but in in in at the end it's still this long box shape with convenient round shapes to fit . project manager: marketing: Right maybe something like this industrial designer: Yeah yes marketing: and then a button here to switch between different systems like D_V_D_ player industrial designer: I thought about something like that . marketing: and so you can I've industrial designer: A big recognisable button on top or something . marketing: Yeah right , and I do think we have to keep this kind of idea with the with the numbers and user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: The buttons should also be not too small , not too big , of course , marketing: Right . marketing: But it should be possible to to make it ap apparent that there are two functions for every button . user interface: Yeah maybe we can just like on cell phones those well you can you can put on on them , industrial designer: Colours , yeah . user interface: and so you can customise your your own remote with different colours or or special paint jobs marketing: That's kinda trendy . user interface: I dunno but industrial designer: I think we have to talk also about the the materials for project manager: Well it's just about our first ideas now user interface: Well industrial designer: . project manager: so I think individually we'll have to come up with ideas for the next meeting about these materials and markets etcetera . But project manager: Yes ? industrial designer: Already thought about something tha marketing: I think it's it's important to notate all the the decisions that we make , project manager: Yes . industrial designer: we have some some minutes left I w wrote down that the case should be plastic of course , hard plastic , the buttons should be rubbery I think . project manager: Well I have had remotes that they had the function of the buttons was about a layer over the buttons user interface: . industrial designer: No n n project manager: and when I've had use it much it was gone . Is there an a universal universal way of transmitting from the remote to the television so it's all about industrial designer: I think so . industrial designer: It's a a common stan standard way project manager: It's not that in China it's different ? marketing: Yep . But y you can have of course different between D_V_D_s and televisions and between marketing: And you can use industrial designer: It it's a we we make an a universal remote so it ha has to work with all kinds of brands and things . But our T_V_s are mostly made in China and that sort of country , so project manager: Probably yes . user interface: industrial designer: And have well yeah I've wrote something down about how it works . The user presses a button and with an infrared beam it signals the television set accordingly , project manager: marketing: But are industrial designer: but that's pretty obvious , I think . project manager: user interface: marketing: Are we going w with the front fronts idea ? project manager: Well I think w we can look into that in the in the next thirty minutes . marketing: and you can always use a front front on it , you know ? You can use it just plain project manager: Yes . project manager: Well j just y you get a n a normal front with it , but you can change them when you buy the user interface: Yeah . project manager: And we should dispatch those kind of fronts fronts a a around the world so user interface: . user interface: Well you can make profit with them , and it's a way to make them trendy . project manager: Well th those fifty million don't don't se sells itself so we have to make some extra effort like fronts . industrial designer: Well but th but the standard front will be just grey or something user interface: Yeah alright . Yeah well it has to it h it has to fit the the te television and D_V_D_ set we are going to sell , user interface: No a colour everyone accepts . project manager: so if they are black and black black and silver we'll make them black and silver so user interface: . user interface: project manager: If you have a a a television room for little children and you make a if if you buy a a pink front they'll they'll love it . Well our user interface you can maybe I don't know what your specific instructions will be , but probably about the precision of the buttons and and those kind of things and what buttons will have to be on the remote . industrial designer: yeah also the the look and feel of the the remote's also my task , yeah . user interface: What's the url or the website 'cause I didn't get marketing: Right . marketing: It's Yeah yeah yeah just if you start up your Internet Explorer project manager: Well it it it's user interface: Yeah . project manager: if you industrial designer: It's the the the start starting page user interface: Oh oh right oh well I didn't use it . user interface: project manager: Well we're going to back back into our rooms so user interface: Yes . user interface: Next meeting is in project manager: In thirty minutes , but I think it will be you will be warned through your laptop to get over here . user interface: Yeah alright it's it's handy to know project manager: I'll have to restore my my desktop industrial designer: Very handy to know . project manager: Ma industrial designer: W marketing: Oh user interface: S project manager: W that was a nice meeting <doc-sep>The opening , which we are doing now , and the special note , I'm project manager but on the meetings I'm also the secretary , which means I will make minutes as I did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: And I also put these as fast as possible in the project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . if I'm right , there are three presentations , I guess each one of you has prepared one ? Good . project manager: And we will also take a look at new project requirements , if you haven't heard about them yet . And then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . marketing: Well , shall I go first with the users ? user interface: Well marketing: I think well okay no problem . project manager: Is there an order ? I haven't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: Ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . Huh ? Okay , project manager: And one question , your name Denni , is it with a marketing: E_I_E_ . when you press a button , that's when you do pr for example when you want to turn up the volume , a little connection is made the the rubber button just presses on a project manager: Sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate which makes a connection that gives the chips , which is mounted beneath those that plastic of a rubber button . senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau for example the the volume up or volume down button . the the chip makes a Morse code like signal which then is si signalled to several transistors which makes which sends the signal to a little let . the findings that I found searching up some detailed information about the remote controls , are that they are very easy to produce , it is pis it's possible to make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as printing a page , just fibreglass plate is b is covered with some coatings and and chips . user interface: industrial designer: and the technology's already available , we don't have to find out how remote controls have to work or how that how to make some chips that are possible to to to transmit those signals . project manager: Yeah , it's a little bug it's in the in the smart board . well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , I suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it's the button . when it is pressed down , the switch is ter is is switched on , so with the wire is sent to the to the chip in co-operation with the battery of course , because to make a a signal possible you have to have some sort of li a d ad electronic user interface: marketing: Infrared light . w after it's being composed by the chip the signal is transported to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a Morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in in the television set . Of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you don't have to wind it up or something , or just is it's it's very light to to make to use it . I personally pref prefer that it would be p come available in the various colours , and easy to use buttons . industrial designer: And it is possible for several designs and easy to use b sorry , easy to use buttons . Perhaps soft touch , touch screen buttons because the rubber buttons are always they slightly they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: so the numbers on the buttons are not possible to read anymore . industrial designer: Okay , well , that's my contribution to this meeting , and marketing: To this meeting . user interface: Well , my name's , and I looked at technical functions design of the remote . I did this by looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they they look , and information from the web that I found . well what I found was that th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you d what you described just early . And this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . play video , teletext , but also t play C_D_ if you use it your C_D_ player the remote control will that one . The one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of buttons etcetera . And not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but the the essential stuff is there . I guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they don't think it's usable they won't buy it . , well perf personal preferences is is a simple remote , with the basic functions that you can need that you could use . But keep in mind the new functions of T_V_ what we discussed earlier , split screen and is that a function that you should have ? Because all the T_V_s will have them . And then make it I would make so that you can could use it on more than one appliance . If you have one that does with the vi the the video , it could also work with with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . The shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you don't have to have a lot of buttons for anything . We're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just Yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: The methods I I prefer is we're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . Are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? And then tho that section we're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . Younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five years are more interested in fj features like L_C_D_ screens , speech recognition e etcetera . The elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that's two fifth , of the market share in that area . industrial designer: marketing: So we don't have to make it very small , like like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you don't lose it that much anymore . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or shouldn't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . Remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . The volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . So if that's k if that's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . L_C_D_ screen is easy because we have the L_C_D_ screen , we have the various options . Put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . So L_C_D_ screens should be easy , but an L_C_D_ screen , the problem with the L_ sc L_C_D_ screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years don't use the L_C_D_ screen a lot . So we have to that keep that in mind that if you're going to implement L_C_D_ screen , you don't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: L_C_D_ screen as in touch screen ? marketing: Yeah , touch screen , yeah . marketing: So we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . And on my personal preferences , I don't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like I said , L_C_D_ screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . Especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . project manager: then I think it's a good thing that I made a separate slide of them marketing: Ja , project manager: so you can all read them . project manager: So that's the first thing we I think we should pay less attention to teletext . the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , I think . our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . And a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . So , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what shouldn't ? user interface: Well you said it should only work with one appliance ? marketing: Be television . user interface: And the video also , or not ? project manager: Well it says only for television here , huh . user interface: Then it should have on , off , industrial designer: Yeah for user interface: and industrial designer: Standby options , marketing: Yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? yeah . And per perhaps marketing: oh teletext doesn't have to be ? user interface: No . user interface: Well yes yes s sh A button where you can change from one number to two numbers . user interface: Don't know if that's got a name , industrial designer: Yeah I understand what you mean . user interface: but marketing: I think it's I think it's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some T_V_s , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: It makes it twelve , yeah . marketing: and that's that's not relaxed industrial designer: Well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: d wh the Philip's television makes it possible in that indeed to press one and then two to make the tj to reach channel twelve . industrial designer: But all the television makes use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to to get marketing: Yeah . marketing: Our main targets' age are ? were ? Forty five plus , or ? user interface: Mute misschien also . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers of forty plus . marketing: Forties , okay because because younger people as younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in L_C_D_ screen . From twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so I think to Because on most recog remote controls the print plate will be broken how much , two years . marketing: With the L_C_D_ screen it's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to for fingerprint , industrial designer: Yeah , we we could yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: But Well is it possible to make an L_C_D_ screen , how was the information ? marketing: Yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like L_C_D_ screen . user interface: But , do you industrial designer: Yeah but will we not exceed our our production marketing: Yeah you don't know how much it costs . Yeah , you don't know how much it costs , the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: Is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: No , I don't have any costs here , industrial designer: You know ? marketing: I only have percentages . user interface: But if you would do an L_C_D_ screen do we have don don't you have any buttons ? Or because if it only directs at the T_V_ , then you only have I don't know what you want to do with the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: No , an L_C_D_ screen's just like like a drawn here . just displays several buttons , user interface: Yeah ? industrial designer: for example if you wanted the minimal use b buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h displays four buttons on the screen user interface: Oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it's possible to p press them down , just like a touch screen . marketing: Yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: Yeah yeah . project manager: So we're going for an L_C_D_ screen ? user interface: Yeah . marketing: I think it's the most easier thing , industrial designer: That's my project manager: And hoping that when we produce a lot it won't be too expensive . user interface: Any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: Well I suppose wi if the mar if our if the i if the young people are interested in L_C_D_ screens , we should make 'em . industrial designer: And if that is our d market share to and our goal to deliver those remote controls user interface: But But he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an L_C_D_ screen ? marketing: Yeah , but , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: Oh , so still a little bit people marketing: But our our our what's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . But you don't want to alienate the other marketing: No , that not now , but , so user interface: But if they also buy it then it's alright . marketing: Yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . project manager: Okay , so L_C_D_ it is ? user interface: An Yes . project manager: And what else ? industrial designer: I hope we h and let's hope to reach those those sales . marketing: Yeah , i i if it Yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . industrial designer: Yeah , can you s I think that that they will send you some information about the cost of L_C_D_ screens . user interface: But perhaps later , industrial designer: so if you user interface: so industrial designer: Yeah , so if you you receive an email about that , can you post it in the or shouldn't we post that in our projects mail folder . industrial designer: I user interface: Well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it's too expensive . industrial designer: user interface: The L_C_D_ ? Oh that's a bit of a problem . marketing: Yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . marketing: Yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific L_C_D_ remotes . project manager: Yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an L_C_D_ remote , marketing: So project manager: because it's new , as far as I know . marketing: And then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that's not a f question with the L_C_D_ screen . marketing: Only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . Okay ? project manager: Okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: A mute button . And marketing: The most important things on a f on an on an remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: But But shouldn't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: Other things are Sorry ? user interface: Remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . Yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the L_C_D_ screen for teletext . industrial designer: And there's also a marketing: And other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: Yeah , they are less important , but I think they should be there , marketing: Less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: Yeah , should be there , industrial designer: A sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . industrial designer: I think it's also important to make it possible to how do you call it in English , to not use batteries , and use ac bat batteries to to be project manager: So you can mount the the the marketing: Yeah , in a breath it's industrial designer: the remote control to project manager: user interface: We should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: Yeah , user interface: I don't know how much that's going to marketing: but we don't we don't have any costs now , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: because i when you get an L_C_D_ screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: Yeah . user interface: If you have an L_C_D_ screen that's burns all the time I dunno . user interface: You shouldn't on and off because that's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can project manager: industrial designer: marketing: Yeah , I think it's it's not that easy because I don't think people will like it who who that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: Nee that's that's yeah . marketing: so I think it's better when th the T_V_ shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: But then you can't industrial designer: And go to standby mode when you don't use it , user interface: Yeah . user interface: marketing: And then b that industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . marketing: Yeah , because when you're watching T_V_ , you're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: Yeah . Yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: No , marketing: and I don't think it industrial designer: when you when you're done with s w watching your television , you have to put it marketing: Yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: But you'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: Yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . industrial designer: so I marketing: Or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they're recharged . user interface: Well I think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: So . user interface: or not ? marketing: Yeah because you have b user interface: 'Cause marketing: but you have L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: High power user cell , i it should be a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you're done watching television , marketing: Yes . industrial designer: that's also a a a great advantage because you can't lose it anymore . Because you are obliged to put it in the charger and not to leave it in a couch between some cushions . user interface: But then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: Yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the T_V_ . industrial designer: Yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . project manager: Okay , well I've marketing: It has to be easy to use also , or things . industrial designer: Functional designs for the elderly you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: I think . industrial designer: Because we can look at perhaps forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: And you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: Speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: Hello . That's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . marketing: But then I I I project manager: Even bigger than for L_C_D_ . industrial designer: let's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: But they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: Sure why not why not marketing: Yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: Is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . user interface: Oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: I think an L_C_D_ screen should be suf sufficient . project manager: But when you look at the percentages marketing: Yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: Speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: Perhaps the options should be Why not ? user interface: project manager: Yeah , well , industrial designer: Why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but nobody knows how much it will cost . industrial designer: Let's hope to have some d user interface: I know marketing: No I think I think it's better to have L_ L_C_D_ screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want L_C_D_ screen and thirty five want speech recognition . user interface: With that marketing: If it should be done , if it could be done , I won't matter . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: Yeah . Then it's y it's yours to do a French and Dutch and English marketing: True . marketing: But that should also be with f should be also with L_C_D_ screen . marketing: Because then I think in Chinese is different written , volume is different written than Swahili or something . marketing: 'Kay , what else ? project manager: So , no speech recognition ? Or user interface: Well , if it could be done , we marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: Y it should be done . industrial designer: That's not so difficult at all , project manager: Okay , just make a separate remote for each industrial designer: because I already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to not all , but user interface: Well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . I think it can't be implemented , but maybe user interface: You could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . Well I've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , the digits from one to zero , huh . a digits button to switch between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . we're going to use a docking station and probably L_C_D_ and if there's enough money , speech recognition . user interface: I With teletext if it wasn't ver very important , it was but marketing: No , but user interface: You also now have colours . Yeah , marketing: Curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: S Shortcuts . marketing: I think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . marketing: D Mainly if you turn the remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . project manager: Okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: . industrial designer: So does it confuse the user ? user interface: You'll have to search for it . user interface: industrial designer: If you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options become available . project manager: Okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: I guess not . What else can you do with a television ? user interface: We've got anon project manager: Aren't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: Have got got two examples here , but I don't think there's anything we're missing . user interface: Well , we don't have the video orders marketing: Yes , so this is your presentation . user interface: Yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: Which ones were yours ? user interface: th th th th I don't know , technical functions . marketing: Techni user interface: They're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: Ping . user interface: And for a T_V_ ? Can you zoom in a T_V_ ? marketing: Yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: Or that you can put 'em on on on wide and marketing: yeah different user interface: yeah . user interface: Yeah , so you can program the marketing: So those four , and of course the main . user interface: Yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can go to marketing: Yeah . marketing: Something industrial designer: There are a lot of options depending on what kind of television you got . marketing: Yeah , if industrial designer: 'Cause if you don't got a wide screen television you don't need the the screen settings marketing: No , you don't yu a no you then you don't no ni don't industrial designer: for marketing: then you don't use it . industrial designer: Colours I think the main colour of the remote control is the colour of the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: I Because we don't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: Yeah , then defines itself . Because how many percent ? Eighty percent ? user interface: They think it's ugly , right ? marketing: Would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: Okay , so use very lot of peo user interface: Perhaps you can make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: Adjust with phones , yes user interface: You can But I don't think that industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: Yeah sea view , yes , Simpson's versions and marketing: Yeah , see through version . then we have separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: . user interface: but marketing: Or like you have a menu button , you press project manager: No , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: Yeah , but I marketing: Yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have main menu search all the all the settings . project manager: So we're having a a general menu with the most used functions , teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? Like large icons or small icons user interface: I don't know . project manager: and I don't know what else , marketing: project manager: but industrial designer: No . marketing: I think b because we don't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: Or do we have any buttons ? On the remote . marketing: I think the buttons Yeah , but but or like you have user interface: Which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . Those buttons you can you can project manager: Yeah , but on the L_C_D_ , user interface: But that's also in the L_C_D_ , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: So we don't have any normal buttons marketing: Yeah , th user interface: that marketing: No , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: Yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: But we don't need a special industrial designer: not button marketing: But I don't think project manager: we don't need a special options menu for the remote itself . If you have if you have industrial designer: Yeah sure , of course you need a settings button , or a settings option for the remote control . But isn't idea to use what you said , normal on and off button for the T_V_ , that you don't have to use a marketing: No no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: Yeah but but not for the remote but for the T_V_ , that you use marketing: Yeah , but a T_V_ of course , th that's the I think that's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: But a not as normal button , in the L_C_D_ , marketing: No . project manager: Well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the L_C_D_ , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you can't turn it on when the L_C_D_ is off . So how do you turn the thing on ? There has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: No you just tap I think . project manager: And then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: No , just the remote . user interface: But marketing: A television don't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: Yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then T_V_ should be available . I don't know whether it's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just rubber for for T_V_ , marketing: Separate . Otherwise you I don't know whether or not that's industrial designer: A A A normal button on the remote control , user interface: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: Of or you should put it in the L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah , because when you touch the L_C_D_ screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . industrial designer: Wh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: Well I I guess if you use the L_C_D_ screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you you you then turn it , and then the T_V_ goes on . But if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: Yeah , but I think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: I think it looks a lot more fancy if you use if you don't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . project manager: Okay , well that's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . project manager: Okay , well I guess we have to industrial designer: Oh , okay marketing: Yeah , if we can afford it . project manager: postpone further discussion to our next meeting , because we're running out of time . Okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: user interface: Should we put this back in our rooms , or ? industrial designer: Yeah , think so <doc-sep>project manager: and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? N user interface: . in this meeting I I'm going to discuss about the trend watching , how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . The met methodology to find out the trend was incl was done in a way We have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . So what are our findings ? In our in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that people l people do have preference for tho fancy mobi f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel good . So we should take into we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as the third factor . So this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv in our mark means in take in designing our rem remote controls . user interface: The last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: No the first one is the user interface: Oh , sorry . marketing: the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: Okay . marketing: the fancy design rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . We must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo remote controls are . So it should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . And the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: marketing: there shouldn't be too many buttons on this mobi remote control , it shouldn't be too complicated like this way . And it should be and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . marketing: Y yeah yeah , we have to , because d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: Okay . industrial designer: We should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it'd be it would be yellow . marketing: And people the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . marketing: So user interface: Okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: No it ca y a user interface: Do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: The rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: Okay . 'Cause we It shouldn't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: Okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: Alright , okay . marketing: so we don't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: -huh . marketing: user interface: And were there any factors that weren't important in the survey , that they said we don't want ? marketing: S we didn't find out any such point . marketing: yes , there could be , but we couldn't find out any , so project manager: -- so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what's good about them , what's bad about them , I looked at their flaws , so we're going to look at their flaws , everything . Okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . So I think for our remote control There is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but I think standard kind of shape and play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: Right , okay . user interface: I think , people find that important,'cause then it's easy to use . project manager: user interface: And we've got some pictures of some new remote controls to show you . user interface: Do I press Escape F_ five ? Or just project manager: no just escape should user interface: Escape , okay . user interface: There's an L_C_D_ thing , which we thought could I thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . user interface: This one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: - , like the middle button . user interface: and But I'm not exactly sure how you'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: Ah it's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: right , well , if I s if I'm thinking of the right one , I've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: -huh , that's like the L_C_D_ one , project manager: Right , okay . user interface: is it ? But the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . Again that's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , I think on that one . industrial designer: user interface: You can put it in there , it's for your kids , and it's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . user interface: And that's really easy to use , bright , so I like this one lot for our design . project manager: Yeah , I m the one thing I think about about these ones is these kl secured areas , I've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the T_V_ or something . And this one , the over-sized one , I don't know about you , but I think it's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: I guess so . I like some of these things the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . but the buttons on this I think are it's just showing you how you can have different different buttons . project manager: 'Kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , don't they ? user interface: Yeah , exactly . So we need to combine those ones industrial designer: user interface: and I've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . user interface: It's you program it like you say , record , and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that's And it's much Yeah . personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols I thought were good , the L_C_D_ , it does look smart , but I think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: The L_C_D_ user interface: Yeah . user interface: And the speech recognition , 'cause I think we're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: But in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . But our budget , we've project manager: It's still it's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: So even if we increase our cost little bit , within some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , I think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: I'm not sure if the if for twenty five Euros per twelve Euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . I can't see tha Although , th to be to be sure they have got they are going crazy with the L_C_D_ technology now , industrial designer: user interface: The L_C_D_ . project manager: so that you've got your L_C_D_ T_V_s and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: But like I I the black and white , I guess , it just doesn't look funky enough . industrial designer: project manager: but , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour L_C_D_ screens , user interface: No . industrial designer: But price price not withstanding , is it too complicated , is it gonna be too much just overload ? marketing: And the project manager: Twelve fifty . marketing: i it will be easy because there will be , on L_C_D_ s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: Possibly . user interface: Yeah , that's the thing , because industrial designer: But but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? You're looking at the T_V_ project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: It just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: And one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so I think I'm not sure about the L_C_D_ . user interface: It's a it's great , it's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we're trying to go for eas easy to use , it's not the thing we should go for , I think . Child-friendly , I thought this was good , as you pointed out the the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , I think . industrial designer: So which vegetable ? project manager: Well we could make a user interface: Yeah , I know , carrot . project manager: Well , si since we're going for the the k the sort of company colours , I think your lemon wasn't that far s industrial designer: The the lemon . project manager: And if it doesn't work you know , we've just made a lemon . And the mouse one , I thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . So they'd be able to use that , as I said I think i I'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: And that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the T_V_ maker , so user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: I guess there are a lot of options that we're gonna have to choose from among , project manager: Yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and I'll I'll give you the , I guess , technical considerations for those . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: And I'm gonna use the whiteboard , just 'cause we haven't used it . So , the way I'm gonna do this is we're gonna take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , reuse the the vital kind of essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we'll throw in our new innovations and keep it all within budget . project manager: industrial designer: you open it up , there's a circuit board inside , project manager: industrial designer: and there's a a chip , a processor , the T_A_ one one eight three five , which receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: So this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: Right , it's very they're very cheap remote . so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the to the L_E_D_ light , which I can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the project manager: Okay . So can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: R no , this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . So you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what's it gonna be , the board we have to use basically the same set-up , processor , we'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . so for the casing , this an e-mail I got from our manufacturing team , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , latex , double-curved , curved . industrial designer: what do we think ? or sponge , I guess , isn't on there , right . project manager: Well , like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , doesn't it . industrial designer: Yeah so project manager: so maybe s a sort of plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: Okay so , here are a a plastic , latex user interface: I like the rubber , the stress balls , I think , project manager: Oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it's good to hold and industrial designer: Oh right . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: Yeah , project manager: Or at least incorporating , yeah . project manager: I forgot i we're sort of I don't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: I think project manager: Other parts or user interface: . Yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there's gonna be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: user interface: or i if we're having buttons actually , industrial designer: So yellow for the body , user interface: I don project manager: . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: I quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: You do have ones like play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah or yeah a limit maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it doesn't look too childish , perhaps . if we are gonna make it a novel double-curved sounds good to me if we're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: 'kay so the shape we wanna go how exactly ? Maybe double user interface: Like an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you're thinking of , project manager: Yeah it's , yeah , that that'd be that's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you don't drop it . user interface: or just like a It's not industrial designer: What about a banana ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah ? Okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: Well , yeah , like industrial designer: 'cause it's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: Yeah , yeah . user interface: How would you point it ? industrial designer: Oh i it doesn't matter which end you point , I guess . user interface: What industrial designer: We could have a little L_E_D_s on each end . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people's choices . project manager: Huh ? user interface: y I'm I'm not sure about the banana idea . industrial designer: So a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: that that th user interface: Rubber banana . And what else did you say about fashions ? What was trendy ? marketing: the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: S industrial designer: See marketing: like people now project manager: And sponginess . industrial designer: So maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: And spongy , yeah . user interface: Like what's what's that , I don't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . industrial designer: Like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: . project manager: user interface: 'Cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: Yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . Well , I guess it's kind of dra you don't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: No . industrial designer: Okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: Yeah . marketing: Or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . And buttons would , did we say ? different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: I l I su for the specific functions , you know , up and down , play , stop . industrial designer: Okay , so project manager: They've got , they've got standard sort of intuitive industrial designer: so buttons . industrial designer: With the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: Yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: speech recognition , I think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: Where should I put the microphone ? project manager: ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: Yeah , I'm not sure . industrial designer: Okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: I couldn Yeah . project manager: And I think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: So should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: I would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it's Yeah . industrial designer: project manager: We really need really gonna need to hold it , if it's gonna be voice recognition . user interface: And so what else was there ? the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: What about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: I s I still like it . project manager: 'Cause like if we how good is the speech recognition thing ? Do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it's a fruit ? user interface: Then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: They can work from a project manager: Yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: You don't have to hold it . project manager: some I user interface: Yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like , I dunno , an apple . I quite like the design of that , 'cause that could sit on its own and it's quite got a quite steady base . user interface: project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we don't wanna be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . industrial designer: But yeah , about the speech thing , it doesn't have to be hand held or close . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . marketing: So whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: In that w project manager: It kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing user interface: Yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: S s sorry ? user interface: didn't you ? You said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . marketing: okay ? If somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . marketing: If somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . user interface: We still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: Yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: marketing: Yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: Oh , that's the other side . So from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . marketing: So in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . marketing: And project manager: I think tho I think if you're gonna have a facia then you'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: Okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . project manager: You know 'cause that'd be in the palm of their hand and they wouldn't be able to see it , user interface: Yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . And you've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: industrial designer: Okay , so marketing: project manager: So you've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s I guess we decided on material , right ? So that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: Yeah . Well , because Well , I I'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because I think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and because what project manager: Okay , so we stick with what we've got there . user interface: Yeah , w I think wh wha would we're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . They wanted something that looks fancy and I think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: 'kay . user interface: because al already we're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . project manager: So again like we could have , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: Okay . project manager: colour , but have user interface: Maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: e even if user interface: Because project manager: not necessarily that the the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . project manager: So you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . as for the energy source , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we don't have to be limited by that . I don't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: It's I think it's basically the more you move i it , it's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: So , this might be an idea for something that people really wanna grab , you can shake it if it's out of power . So if it if it's not working , I guess people's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: But but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: Yeah . marketing: Because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: It does leave them with an obligation to marketing: Yeah , to mo Yeah . marketing: because most of the people project manager: Then if it's just sitting on the user interface: Yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then Yeah . marketing: solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: I'm I'm with Raj on that , industrial designer: Okay , so probably just marketing: Yeah . project manager: I think , you know , marketing: What we w project manager: I've got I've got no I've got a north facing house , there's not really ever sun coming in my window . project manager: I w I w user interface: project manager: that idea that I thought just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: . project manager: is having a , user interface: And we're a very environmentally friendly company , aren't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: Yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but for using it as recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . What's chip on print ? What's industrial designer: ? project manager: Sorry , never mind . So the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: So yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . project manager: Yeah , and if we if we're just having buttons and the speech then we're getting our cheapest option of chipping . project manager: Okay , we're we're kind of we're kind of Excuse m I've just deleted that whole thing . Was that you ? industrial designer: Huh ? project manager: that was your bit's covered , industrial designer: Oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: and what I would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . project manager: yeah , I hope I can recover this , 'cause I've accidentally deleted it . project manager: Yeah , can you save that send that last one again , please , Raj , marketing: Yeah . project manager: as I still can't find it on the marketing: it was under a different name . project manager: that's that's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in Project Documents . But I cou can't open that , because it w asks for some username or password . project manager: Yeah , I don't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my on my agenda . okay , still didn't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and . no , I think that's us our discussion over unless anybody's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: No I'm good . project manager: we'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it's a user interface:

The company aims to create a TV remote that matches the color of the TV they sell, opting for black, gray, or silver as they believe people generally dislike bright colors. They also propose reducing the number of buttons on the remote and making them multifunctional and internationally recognized. The team considers the preferences of both young and old users, with the industrial designer suggesting LCD screens for young people and the user interface team considering the usability for older people. Marketing emphasizes the importance of targeting younger people and suggests using LCD screens, but also acknowledges the cost factor and agrees to consider rubber buttons if LCD screens are too expensive. The user interface team presents the idea of incorporating a scroll on the remote, allowing users to easily navigate and select items. Despite dissatisfaction with the existing remote's color, shape, and buttons, the team agrees that the scroll function is a good idea.

What were the team members' opinions on the color, buttons, LCD screen, and scrolling of the new remote control when discussing the desired features and comparing them to the existing remotes?

Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance? kirsty williams am: I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020? kirsty williams am: Okay. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire? claire bennett: Yes. sian gwenllian am: You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. kirsty williams am: The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me— kirsty williams am: Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. Some of the feedback that we've had is that— sian gwenllian am: So, will you be adding to those? kirsty williams am: Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention. Will they include mental health and well-being? kirsty williams am: Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out. lynne neagle am: They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law. kirsty williams am: Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system. kirsty williams am: Claire, am I explaining it okay? claire bennett: Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school. sian gwenllian am: Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying— kirsty williams am: So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. kirsty williams am: Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee— kirsty williams am: We're assuming so. sian gwenllian am: Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said? kirsty williams am: Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education— sian gwenllian am: Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it? kirsty williams am: Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response? claire bennett: It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education. And your response? kirsty williams am: And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that? kirsty williams am: Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. sian gwenllian am: —actually implemented in September— kirsty williams am: In 2022. kirsty williams am: And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David. hefin david am: Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton? kirsty williams am: I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap. And how do you respond, then—? , it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils? kirsty williams am: Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools. hefin david am: What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical. kirsty williams am: As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them. hefin david am: So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'. kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. hefin david am: Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' kirsty williams am: Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems. hefin david am: It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that? kirsty williams am: Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made— hefin david am: Bridges have been built. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on. hefin david am: I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv. kirsty williams am: And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know. hefin david am: And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. steve davies: As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform. kirsty williams am: The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay. hefin david am: When did that take place? kirsty williams am: Where? hefin david am: When. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know— suzy davies am: This isn't about assessment. suzy davies am: So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales? kirsty williams am: Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content— suzy davies am: Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this. steve davies: In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—? claire bennett: I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years. kirsty williams am: And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward. suzy davies am: Can I just have a quick—? lynne neagle am: Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough? kirsty williams am: I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. kirsty williams am: You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum. kirsty williams am: There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'? kirsty williams am: The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out— claire bennett: Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically. kirsty williams am: If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?' lynne neagle am: Okay. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools. sian gwenllian am: Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now? steve davies: I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. dawn bowden am: I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project? kirsty williams am: Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. dawn bowden am: So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals? lynne neagle am: Excellent, concise question. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. suzy davies am: Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming. suzy davies am: Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those? kirsty williams am: Oh, yes. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately? kirsty williams am: Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes? kirsty williams am: To accountability? suzy davies am: Yes. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors. suzy davies am: And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think? kirsty williams am: Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation. kirsty williams am: Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures? kirsty williams am: Well, because we will still—. kirsty williams am: Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated? kirsty williams am: Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn— suzy davies am: All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that? kirsty williams am: Yes, schools— steve davies: The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. steve davies: We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. kirsty williams am: And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn. lynne neagle am: Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum? kirsty williams am: Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum? kirsty williams am: Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period. kirsty williams am: Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded. sian gwenllian am: Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource? kirsty williams am: We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools? kirsty williams am: Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. sian gwenllian am: With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests? kirsty williams am: Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum— sian gwenllian am: Okay, so it's the timing. sian gwenllian am: So, later on, maybe when this is embedded— kirsty williams am: I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. kirsty williams am: There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally. sian gwenllian am: So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA. kirsty williams am: Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this. janet finch-saunders am: Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity? kirsty williams am: Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute. janet finch-saunders am: How will you monitor it? kirsty williams am: Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now. As we've just said— janet finch-saunders am: How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity? kirsty williams am: Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date? kirsty williams am: Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment. suzy davies am: So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail? kirsty williams am: Okay. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. suzy davies am: And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way. sian gwenllian am: I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation? kirsty williams am: Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear? lynne neagle am: Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you that, when speaking, you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking. I understand we don't have any ministerial announcements today, so we'll proceed to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, a future problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze, enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly, universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea is to be as concise as possible. The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the ever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of law-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. They're asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. There's been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. That period can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. The petitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended. Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term care facilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have made us stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. We have not been there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. the chair: Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. michael barrett (leedsgrenvillethousand islands and rideau lakes, cpc): During these trying times, the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge. They've made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe. It would be impossible to list everyone who has emerged as a community hero, but I'd like to highlight a few, like Lily, an eight-year-old from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank by building and selling squirrel picnic tables, and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who's making masks for long-term care facilities and selling others in support of the Breast Cancer Action centre. The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some $27,000 in support of charitable groups throughout the region. Who can forget our top-notch health care workers like Hannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID-19 testing centre? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great. Chair, the Indian Act enshrined racism into Canadian law in 1876, and, through residential schools, the child welfare system, our legal system and our police, we criminalized and tore apart indigenous peoples. The deaths of Chantel Moore and Rodney Levi and the assault on Chief Allan Adam are recent examples of systemic racism within the RCMP. Anti-black racism has resulted in more young black men being jailed, children being streamed or excluded from schools and negative police interaction due to profiling. It is now time to reimagine and rework our institutions, starting with our police, to ensure that all Canadians can achieve their truest potential. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. That's why the increase in the old age security benefit and the guaranteed income supplement must be extended beyond the pandemic. In three weeks, our seniors will receive their first cheque, when they should be receiving their second. A date must also be announced for the new horizons for seniors program, which helps several groups develop projects to break the isolation of seniors. In closing, I would like to mention the organization Justice alternative et mdiation that during the pandemic, along with other organizations in Shefford, has set up the project Une histoire pour la tienne, which also serves to mark this day. It's a virtual meeting between young people and seniors, allowing them to exchange some inspiring life experiences. Since age prejudice is very much present, I applaud this project, which aims to make us understand each other better and judge each other less. Chair, in the time of this terrible crisis affecting all Canadians, when we are all thinking about how best to deal with it, let's all think about the people around us. Let's show our representation not only to those in the sector of sanctioned workers, but also to all those Canadians who day by day stand up and make a difference. I want to acknowledge and celebrate all the contributions made by the people of Brampton Centre, all religious institutions, civil society and community organizations like Knights Table in my riding. Chair, whether graduating from elementary school, high school, Georgian College or graduating from colleges or universities across the country, I am proud of the accomplishments of all the graduates across BruceGreyOwen Sound. I would also like to congratulate and thank all the teachers and parents who have adapted to teaching online or from home and who have supported these graduates over the course of their academic careers. I'd like to extend special congratulations to Cameron Lovell, who just graduated from grade eight, as well as to Neebeesh and Neebin Elliott, originally from the Nawash unceded first nation on the Bruce Peninsula, who will be headed to Michigan State University, and to Jared Lumley from Owen Sound, who just graduated from my alma mater, the Royal Military College of Canada. The college motto of Truth, Duty, Valour is something all Canadians should aspire to live by. serge cormier (acadiebathurst, lib.): Today I pay tribute to RichardLosier, an entrepreneur, visionary and builder who died on June9, 2020, surrounded by his family. In1968, he co-founded St.Isidore Asphalte, a company that now has more than 200employees. He was unifying and generous, a philanthropist who cared about young people and never missed an opportunity to improve their lives. I met Mr.Losier when I was 14years old, and I can say that he has been a positive influence in my life. Every time I met him, he gave me a lot of advice and encouragement, which I've never forgotten. I offer my most sincere condolences to his children, Richard Jr., Ronald, Nathalie, Caroline and Stphane, and to his family and friends. julie dabrusin (torontodanforth, lib.): Hello from my community in east end Toronto. People talk about how a city the size of Toronto can be cold, but that's far from the truth in my community. Wong of Earl Grey Senior Public School, who delivered home-baked cookies and handwritten notes to all of his students, or Monsieur Steve, who's offering online French classes, or the teachers of Riverdale Collegiate, who paraded through our streets to celebrate our graduates. Our local Michael Garron Hospital put out a call for community members to sew masks and received over 60,000 masks, including those made by Lisa Tancre of Chartwell Avondale Retirement Residence. Restaurants, even while facing adversity, have been generously donating food, like the members of the Leslieville BIA or Mezes. There are so many more stories of generosity that I could share, but I'm out of time. Chair, on Saturday night, Calgarians, particularly those in the northeast, in my riding of Calgary Skyview, witnessed a devastating storm, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime. Homes, vehicles, community buildings and structures suffered significant damage due to large hail, floods and high winds. My heart aches for those who have been impacted by the storm in an already incredibly difficult time, but we are resilient. We know that in the coming weeks there will be a lot of cleanup required, both to personal property and in the community. I'd like to express my sincere gratitude to the people of West Nippissing who organized Pride activities to celebrate the LGBTQ community in June. I thank the public servants for their dedication to the Nickel Belt community and the Valley East and Rayside-Balfour areas. Chair, when COVID-19 began spreading across Ontario, Markham, like many other communities, was unprepared. When Markham residents heard about these shortages, my office was flooded with calls from people who had PPE and wanted to donate. Since then my office has been able to deliver tens of thousands of PPE supplies to front-line health care workers and five masks to each family in need. This pandemic has shown that no matter what the challenge is, the Markham community will overcome it. As we start to see local businesses reopen, it is important for all of us to remember to follow best practices outlined by local public health. It is important for all of us to respect social distancing, to protect all workers and their families. the chair: Again, my apologies for skipping over there, but now we'll to to Ms. Chair, in commemoration of Italian Heritage Month, I would like to pay tribute to the Colombo Lodge and Italian Cultural Centre in Kamloops, British Columbia. Recently they began Colombo Cares take-home dinners with proceeds distributed to different non-profit organizations throughout the region. Last month they very generously gave away hundreds of dinners to Royal Inland Hospital staff and paramedics for their tireless work throughout the pandemic. In their own words they say, Colombo Lodge is very proud of the Italians that have made Kamloops their home. Community members of Italian ancestrypast and presenthave helped and continue to help Kamloops prosper as a giving, welcoming and inclusive community. People are worried about what will happen when the CERB runs out in two weeks' time, and the coming tourism season looks very grim. The province itself is in serious financial crisis due to the pandemic and the decline in oil prices. The federal government must overhaul and enhance the fiscal stabilization program to help Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and other oil-producing provinces through this crisis. This is a challenge and an opportunity to transition to a sustainable energy future, but it will require significant investment and support by government to keep the industry strong and make this a just transition for workers. marie-hlne gaudreau (laurentideslabelle, bq): Mr.Chair, all 44elected municipal officials in the riding of LaurentidesLabelle and I have sent a letter to the government asking that cellular and high-speed Internet networks be made available to all. The territorial complexity of the Laurentians means that there are areas where the signal is weak, unstable or non-existent. Also, because of the lockdown, Internet failures are being felt, and they prevent distance learning, telemedicine and teleworking, among other things. How can our municipalities develop economically if they can't provide their community with adequate communication tools? We are therefore calling on the government to put the interests of its people first by investing massively right now in the construction of high-speed Internet and cellular infrastructure. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): I rise today to pay tribute to Sir Winston Churchill, the former prime minister of Great Britain and one of the greatest leaders history has ever known. In what can only be called a lifetime of service, Churchill's contributions to the Commonwealth and to the world are without equal. During the Second World War he led the allied forces in Europe against the tyranny and fascism of Adolph Hitler and his Nazi regime. When our world was in its darkest hour, Churchill's leadership was a beacon of hope and freedom. I am reminded of something he once said, All the greatest things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honour, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill himself embodied all of these great things and will forever be a symbol of freedom, democracy and hope. Chair, I would like to add my voice to the recognition and celebration of Pride Month, which is celebrated annually during June. However, I know the ongoing pandemic will not stop us from showing our love and support for the LGBTQ+ community. To celebrate Pride Month this year, my office distributed 3,000 pride maple leaf pins across the country; whoever asked received one. Although the majority was sent to constituents in my riding, over 500 pins were sent to the neighbouring ridings of LanarkFrontenacKingston, LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, and HastingsLennox and Addington. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, I am very pleased to take part in today's meeting of this parliamentary committee. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. I agree with him that Canada and Canadians are doing an excellent and difficult job in the fight against coronavirus. As for the economy, our government is there for Canadians, for workers and for businesses, and it will continue to be. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, Canadians know that the government is there to support them. grard deltell: Canadians and Quebeckers also know that the Government of Quebec will table its economic update this week. members and to Canadians what the government is doing for the economy the chair: We return to Mr.Deltell. Chair, it is a real pleasure for me to explain to the minister and everybody in the House of Commons that today the Saskatchewan government will table its economic update. Chair, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to share with Canadians what our government is doing to support workers, businesses and the economy. We see governments acting correctly for their people, except for the Liberal government, which cannot table an economic update. When will the Liberal government table an economic update, which Canadians would like to see? the chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister. Chair, I am delighted to share with the member opposite and with Canadians what we are doing practically that has meaning for Canadians. Everybody is working hard in Canada, and the business community would like to know where the Liberal government is going. I've spoken about the CEBA, and let me point out that more than $26 billion of support has been given through that essential program. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, this is starting to get interesting; the minister is revealing some of these expenses. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I will continue in French by explaining what our government is doing for Canadians and workers the chair: Mr.Deltell. Chair, this is a little bit concerning for all Canadians, because this government cannot say when they will table the economic update, cannot identify how much money they have spent in the last three months and cannot say what is the deficit of Canada. christine normandin (saint-jean, bq): Mr.Chair, there are times when Quebec and the provinces are not just two solitudes, but they get along and speak as one, such as when the time comes to tell the government to mind its own business. On reading section91 of the Constitution Act, 1982, which sets out the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government, nowhere do I find that the federal government must meddle by attaching conditions to health transfers. Will the government do the only thing within its authority, which is to take the cheque, sign it and put it in the mail? hon. We fully understand the importance of federal support for the provinces, especially in our national fight against the coronavirus. I would also like to point out the importance of the support of the Canadian Armed Forces, who are doing an important and excellent job in Quebec and Ontario today, right now. christine normandin: Mr.Chair, I am glad to see that there is recognition of the importance of transferring this money. My question is whether it can be transferred unconditionally; that's what I'm asking. In the past, we have seen that it takes a long time to negotiate conditions with the federal government. We saw it in the case of the Quebec City tramway, and we are still seeing it now in the case of transfers for housing in Quebec, for which there is no agreement and, therefore, no transfer of money. member said in her first question that the only thing the federal government had to do on health care was to sign the cheques. I can't agree because, today, at this time, at the request of the Premier of Quebec, the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today; they're there to save the lives of seniors the chair: We now return to Ms.Normandin. What I'm saying is that, at present, the provinces are unanimously asking that there be no conditions. This is where there should be negotiations so that we can work, among other things, to send money to people living with disabilities, to make sure we fight CERB fraud and to make sure that court time limits are effective in the current crisis. Can the government focus on the issue in order to respect the provinces and transfer money for health care? hon. member that the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today at the request of the Province of Quebec. member will agree with me that being there for Quebec's seniors, that saving the lives of Quebec's seniors, is much more than simply signing cheques. I think we all should thank these people who are working for Canada, for Quebec, and who are doing an important and excellent job. christine normandin: Mr.Chair, I think the Deputy Prime Minister misunderstood me when I was talking about the importance of acting quickly. Negotiations between the government and the provinces take an awfully long time because the federal government decides to place conditions where there shouldn't be any. Right now, the only important thing is to transfer the money quickly so that it can be used in our hospitals and our long-term care facilities, where the need is desperate. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to point out the extent to which the federal government is there to support the provinces, including Quebec. We have increased funding to the provinces and territories by $500million to help them prepare for COVID-19 outbreaks. This funding is in addition to the $40billion that we already provide annually to the provinces and territories. Chair, I thank the member opposite for the extremely important question, and I'll take this opportunity to acknowledge the work that he has done for many years fighting racism in Canada. Chair, I thank the Deputy Prime Minister very much for the response, but there are some specific actions we need to take. When someone is in need of a wellness check or a mental health check, money, financing and support should go to mental health workers and health care workers, not the police. Chair, the member quite rightly began his questions by speaking about systemic racism against indigenous people in Canada, and I would like to speak about that for a moment. Chair, will the Liberal government commit to a review of the use of force as outlined for the RCMP? Will the Liberals commit to that change? hon. Chair, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety had many conversations last week with the RCMP. Will the Prime Minister or the Liberal government commit to something simple and ensure that at the federal level, racial profiling, street checks and carding are expressly prohibited? hon. Chair, sadly, I can't agree that rooting out systemic racism is going to be simple, but I can agree that racial profiling is absolutely inappropriate. jagmeet singh: Well, I'm going to try to get another commitment from the government, because they don't seem able to commit to something as clear as ending racial profiling. We know that millions of Canadians in a couple of weeks are going to be faced with the reality of their CERB ending. These families are worried about how they're going to put food on the table, because they can't return to a job. Will the Liberal government commit today so that those families will have some concrete support, yes or no? hon. Chair, let me be clear, as I was in my previous answer, that our government clearly is opposed to racial profiling. We know that Canadian workers, Canadian families, continue to need the chair: We'll now pause for a short time to allow staff to change within the safety parameters for the COVID-19 virus, and as we resume, we will go to Ms. Chair, the Prime Minister has mandated his ministers, and I quote, to govern in a positive, open and collaborative way. Opposition parties have little opportunity to hold the ruling party to account, private members' bills cannot be tabled and legislation cannot be debated. Trudeau himself, help us understand how all of this fits into his definition of so-called open government? the honourable pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): Well, Mr. Chair, we're here, right? We're here, and the opposition is asking questions. They have more time than before, so I don't know why they're not happy about it. rachael harder: That's like when I'm asking for a full meal and your handing me a few jellybeans and saying, Why aren't you happy with that? Mr. It's like switching a light on and off when it's convenient for the Prime Minister and for the Liberal Party. Trudeau do the right thing, turn the lights on and get back to work for Canadians? hon. Chair, on this side of the House, we're all actually working very hard and we're answering the questions from the opposition. On the Liberal Party website, under the platform commitment, it says that Parliament works best when its members are free to do what they have been elected to do, and that is be the voice for their communities and hold the government to account. The thing is, I think we've reached a balance whereby MPs can come from different places, mostly around Ottawa, and ask questions; but also we can have colleagues from across the country asking questions. rachael harder: Does the Prime Minister value democracy, or does he still look up to China's basic dictatorship? hon. Chair, we're answering all the questions from the opposition, not only from the people in this room, but we're answering the chair: It's back to Ms. I'd like to know from her why it is not important to her that her colleagues participate directly. Trudeau wrote to his ministers and said to them that they continue to raise the bar on openness, effectiveness and transparency. Trudeau has shut it down and has prevented us from being able to do to the good work that Canadians expect us to do. Chair, do they want to talk about shutting down Parliament? How about the time they prorogued Parliament twicenot only once, but twice? The Conservative government shut down Parliament twice. I want to remind honourable members that questions and answers are being given, and we want to hear both sides. rachael harder: In 2014, the leader of the Liberal Party developed a policy resolution entitled Restoring Trust in Canada's Democracy. At the time, the Prime Minister said, Canadians want their Members of Parliament to be effective voices for their communities in Ottawa, and not merely mouthpieces in their communities for an all-too-powerful Prime Minister. Chair, I'd like to know why my colleague wants to shut down the voices of her colleagues who could not speak and could not participate in this room. Chair, how would we vote on private members' bills, for example? As you know, it is not a government vote or a party vote; it's per row. Chair, through youthat we have electronic voting, yes or no? the chair: We'll go on to Mr. Chair, we know that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has champagne tastes and London flats, but it's his champagne mortgages that Canadians are concerned about. Specifically, why did the minister only disclose the complete extent of his personal debt to the Chinese government on June 4 of this year? hon. Chair, as you know, since the minister entered politics, his two mortgages and other liabilities and assets have been fully disclosed to the Ethics Commissioner and placed on the online public registry. We're in the middle of a pandemic here, trying to help Canadians, and the best they can do is ask questions about the chair: We will go back to Mr. garnett genuis: When the minister owes over a million dollars to the Chinese government, people have a right to ask him questions. I still don't know why they ask the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Where is the minister? Why is he hiding? Why won't he answer questions about his personal debt to the Chinese government? hon. What is the impact on the decision-making? Three-quarters of Canadians don't want Huawei involved in our 5G network. Will the minister put the interests of Canadians ahead of the interests of his creditors and say no to Huawei? hon. We have been absolutely clear with allies and with Canadians that we never have and never will compromise Canadians' national interests. Chair, that is not an answer, and it is completely out of step with what our allies have already recognized. Reports are emerging of multiple deadly viruses exported from Winnipeg's microbiology laboratory to the Wuhan Institute of Virology right before scientists were expelled for policy breaches. In spite of that, scientific co-operation between Canadian institutions and the military-affiliated Wuhan Institute of Virology is continuing. Why hasn't the government put in place new guidelines to prevent the export of sensitive pathogens and information to China? hon. Chair, he's right that in 2019 the National Microbiology Laboratory shared lab samples with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The National Microbiology Laboratory routinely shares samples with other labs to help advance the international community's understanding of viruses and the research that is ongoing around those viruses. There are strict protocols in place for these transfers, and these samples were transported according to Canadian laws and regulations. Chair, I think Canadians would be concerned to hear that it's routine to transport viruses to Chinese military-affiliated labs. When Champagne was the parliamentary secretary for finance, the government decided to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, bankrolling Chinese state-controlled development projects in Asia with weak standards in labour, human rights and environment. Will the minister put Canadian taxpayers ahead of his personal creditors and support a pullout from the Communist Party-controlled development bank? hon. Chair, my colleague is trying to connect the dots, and I don't know exactly where he is going from here, but everything is public. I'm sure this exchange will also be available on Google, and the public can draw their own conclusions. We have failures on 5G, failures when it comes to the transport of deadly viruses and failures when it comes to giving over $400 million to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. It's time for the minister to settle his debt with the Communist government and not settle it on the backs of Canadians. michael barrett: Canada's ambassador to the United Nations sent a letter last week to all member states of the UN promising that Canada would consider providing more funding for UNRRA, the same UNRRA that is a front for Hamas, which allows weapons of terror to be stored in schools and provides textbooks that call for the destruction of Israel. Do these Liberals have no shame when it comes to their quest for a seat on the UN Security Council? hon. More than ever, Canada is playing a positive role by being a champion in diversity and inclusion, supporting the global fight against COVID-19, addressing climate change, leading peace and security efforts and helping the most vulnerable. A seat on the Security Council will allow Canada to be a strong voice for a fairer, more inclusive and prosperous the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, I received a letter from Bob Anderson this week, who's advocating for his neighbours like Jean Grevelding, who owns a cottage at Butternut Bay. Of course, our priority is and always has been and always must be the protection of the health and safety of Canadians. That's why we put in place these restrictions for non-essential travel and have required, through the Public Health Agency of Canada, a 14-day quarantine. I don't know the specifics of the person for whom you advocate, but we want to make sure that if they come into Canada, it is for an essential purpose and that they do it safely and respect the quarantine that has been put in place. michael barrett: With nine branches throughout my riding, the Royal Canadian Legion offers a great deal to veterans and rural communities alike. They have been experiencing hardship and a loss of revenue, to the point where they may be forced to shut their doors. The Zone G2 commander and local mayors such as Roger Haley have reached out to me expressing their dire need. Will the government offer support to Legions across the country so they can continue to carry out their vital work for our veterans? hon. Indeed, we're doing everything we can to make sure that we help the Legions and other groups that do so much to help veterans right across the country. michael barrett: On May 21, the minister stated that her team was working as quickly as it could to fill the gaps in CEBA. It has now been three weeks, and many business owners, such as mortgage broker Corinna Smith-Gatcke, are still left in the lurch amid the delays, which are pushing businesses closer to shutting their doors for good. Those businesses can absolutely have access to the loan at their financial institution this Friday, and I would encourage them to go and see their bank or credit union. I want businesses to know that nothing is more important for us than making sure they get the support they need during this difficult time. michael barrett: The County Road 43 expansion project is critical for my riding and the region as a whole. This project will widen the road, increasing safety for the 18,000 motorists who travel the road every day. It's been 334 days since the provincial and local governments announced funding, but there has been nothing from this Liberal government. Today, there is still nothing, and for the last month the minister's team has not even found the time to respond to my request for an update. We're always happy to work with members of Parliament, but they must also work with provinces and territories so that projects are advanced by them to our office. MacAulay read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes? hon. Wagantall, we'll freeze the time so that there's no extra time taken. MacAulay has read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes. I've done everything and worked with him in order to make sure that we bring the proper compensation to veterans the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. cathay wagantall: As a result of that study, are the financial outcomes Canada seeks to provide for ill and injured veterans now clearly defined within the Department of Veterans Affairs? hon. Chair, as the member would know, I am to bring a report to the veterans affairs committee, and there are a number of things done in order to make sure that report is the chair: We'll go back to Mrs. cathay wagantall: Then I would suggest that we get our committee up and going as it should be. lawrence macaulay: Well, of course, lockdown, but just under $90 million that the government put in supplementary estimates to make sure we address the backlog for Veterans Affairs. cathay wagantall: Minister, are Canadian Armed Forces members provided with a copy of this document? hon. In Ombudsman Dalton's recent report, did any one of these three provide the best compensation in all nine scenarios that were studied? hon. lawrence macaulay: Of course, as she knows, there's been a lot of work done in order to make sure that we provide the proper compensation to veterans. cathay wagantall: In the undisclosed settlement of Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says ...Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. lawrence macaulay: I can assure you that anybody is welcome to enter any discussion on compensation of veterans. We're always open to what we can do in order to make sure that we provide appropriate compensation. I don't think the term would be appropriate, but it would provide some compensation to veterans who truly deserve it. Ms.Larouche, did I understand correctly that the interpretation didn't work for both speakers? ms. andranne larouche: The sound didn't allow the interpreters to do their job. the chair: In that case, I would ask both members to maybe put their mike a little bit close to their mouth. cathay wagantall: On a point of order, quite often while I'm trying to speak, there are lots of other voices in the background. the chair: I would ask everyone to please be on mute, as well as for anyone in the chamber to please refrain from speaking loudly. cathay wagantall: You said next question, so we're not going backwards, Chair? the chair: Did we have an answer from Minister MacAulay? No? We'll go to Minister MacAulay to finish up the answer. Then, because of all of the confusion, we'll start at one minute and 45 seconds when we get going again. cathay wagantall: Should I repeat the question, sir? the chair: Please do. In the undisclosed settlement to Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says, Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. Anybody is quite open to indicate whatever they wish in order to make sure we provide as appropriate a compensation as possible. You can never totally compensate veterans truly for what they deserve, but we want to make sure we provide the best compensation possible. cathay wagantall: If that's the case, is Minister MacAulay aware of the practice of red-flagging veterans' files? hon. cathay wagantall: Since the deputy minister has indicated that he runs the department, will the minister ask him for the names of veterans and the dates and the reasons that they are, or have been, red-flagged by VAC? hon. I will do anything I can to make sure that the veterans the chair: We'll go back to Ms. cathay wagantall: Do the most ill and injured still receive from the pension up to $300,000 less for life? hon. Chair, as you know and as the Prime Minister indicated when the pension for life was put in place, it was stated that if anybody receives lessthe Prime Minister himself indicated it quite clearlythat must be adjusted. cathay wagantall: For veterans in similar circumstances, should the date of their application for compensation be a factor in determining whether they're treated equitably? hon. Retired Major Mark Campbell in my riding of Sturgeon RiverParkland lost both legs in the line of duty in Afghanistan. He is an avid sport shooter, but understandably, due to his disability, he is very limited in the kinds of firearms he can use, and all of these firearms have now been banned under the Liberal OIC. My question to the Minister of Public Safety is this: Did their department do a legal analysis and consider the section 15 charter rights of disabled Canadians not to be discriminated against when they passed their OIC? hon. bill blair: Yes, there was a very thorough analysis done by the justice department to ensure that the prohibitions we put in place were, in fact, charter compliant. We have prohibited them, and we believeand this has been echoed by many people across the countrythat this will make Canadians safer. Chair, is the minister aware that the AR-15 is the most popular sporting rifle in Canada, and is he aware that disabled veterans like Major Mark Campbell are unable to participate in the sport of sport shooting because of his OIC? hon. bill blair: I can assure the member that what I am aware of is that the AR-15 and other weapons like them have been used in mass killings in Canada on many occasions, such as at cole Polytechnique, at Dawson College, again at the Quebec mosque and in Moncton. The AR-15s in particular were also used at the terrible tragedy in places like Sandy Hook, where a bunch of kids were killed, so there is no place for the chair: We will go to Mr. Chair, it has been months since the Liberals shut down this Parliament and months since the Minister of Finance should have presented a budget or at least an economic update to Canadians. Well, that didn't stop Stephen Harper and the Conservatives from tabling a budget in the depth of the last great recession. We're working for Canadians and bringing forward supports to make sure that businesses, workers and Canadians can put food on the table and pay their rent. We will continue to support Canadians, and when we have a clear projection to present, we will do that. Chair, the results are in, and businesses aren't happy with the so-called support programs from these Liberals. When is the government going to recognize that their business support plans have been an absolute failure with only a fraction of the billions promised being accessible to businesses? hon. We had the BCAP, which is critically important to providing liquidity to support the SMEs that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We are helping hard-working Canadians, small businesses and large businesses right across the country, but in particular in our energy sector. He tweeted recently to praise the Alberta Carbon Trunk Line and the North West Redwater Partnership refinery in my riding. Can the minister tell us what, if any, support they have given to the innovative carbon capture and sequestration technology in this country? hon. Chair, we see carbon capture and sequestration as an integral part of lowering emissions, making emissions more competitive and making our oil and gas industry more competitive. dane lloyd: I note that the minister couldn't name a single example of government support for carbon capture, utilization and sequestration technology. We have spent a lot of time talking about the COVID-19 pandemic, but Canadians are living with another horrific reality, that being the intensifying opioid overdose epidemic. Reports indicate that in the past four years, 14,000 Canadians have died, and the numbers during COVID-19 have been skyrocketing, with British Columbia seeing a 39% increase this year alone. When is the government going to take this scourge seriously and take action to save the lives of Canadians? hon. Chair, I share the member's deep sadness about the number of lives we've lost to opioid overdose. Our government has been steadily making it easier for people who live with substance use to access medications to treat substance use, such as prescription Suboxone and methadone. We have made it easier to rapidly establish safe injection sites in communities and have supported community-based projects that work with people who are using substances. We need to understand that this is a complex issue, and we need to support people to get the help they need. carol hughes (algomamanitoulinkapuskasing, ndp)): The hon. louise chabot (thrse-de blainville, bq): MadamChair, I will come back to the bill introduced last week. As parliamentarians, we felt like we were watching a very bad play, as I imagine the public did. However, the government did not see fit to negotiate with the opposition parties, even though it is in a minority position. One of the things we proposed was to split the bill so that we could give this support to people with disabilities, but the Conservatives did not want to do that. We came back and asked for time to negotiate and give support to people with disabilities, but the government defeated the motion. We asked that the House be recalled today so that we could pass this part of the bill concerning support for people with disabilities, but we are still in the dark. We know this pandemic has deeply affected the lives and health of all Canadians and has disproportionately affected Canadians with disabilities in particular. From the very beginning, we've taken a disability-inclusive approach to our emergency response to ensure that Canadians with disabilities get the support they need. That is why we announced a one-time payment of $600 for persons with disabilities to address these expenses. We're confident that this measure, along with other investments, will benefit Canadians with disabilities, and we hope to get the support of the other parties very soon. louise chabot: MadamChair, I remind you that this measure wasn't passed because we weren't allowed to do so. We've tried here, in the House, to provide the means to give that support, so I ask again, can the government be counted on to give a response to people with disabilities? hon. It contained assistance for the disabled, of course, but it also contained assistance for our seasonal workers, as well as a number of other measures that the Bloc Qubcois opposed. They refused to debate and, when the question of splitting the bill came up, the Conservatives refused to do that. This bill proposed changes to the wage subsidy program, it was supposed to make the CERB more flexible, it proposed fines for fraudsters and, since there was a little section about a benefit for the disabled, the government took it for granted that we would support it without any negotiations with the parties. However, we set one very important condition: that the Liberal Party must get its hands out of taxpayers' pockets in terms of the wage subsidy. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, as we listen to the Bloc Qubcois members, we might think that they invented peanut butter and apple pie. This bill contained a number of measures that all Quebeckers and all Canadians needed, but the Bloc Qubcois refused to debate it. No, we did not follow the Bloc Qubcois' example in splitting the bill; we had thought of it a long time previously. louise chabot: We asked on a number of occasions for the House to be able to sit starting today to pass the part of the bill dealing with those with disabilities. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, my colleague knows very well that things are not as simple as that. I hope that, one day, we will be able to pass this bill and be able to provide assistance for those living with disabilities. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. Several measures have been implemented for phasing out coal, making polluters pay, providing climate incentives, investing in green technologies and much more, which all together have created a climate plan that is doing more to cut pollution than any other in Canada's history. One area of particular interest is our government's work to protect 25% of Canada's land and 25% of its oceans by 2025. Could the minister update this House on the new conservation projects announced on June 5, World Environment Day, and on how our government is protecting our environment? hon. seamus o'regan: Madam Chair, protecting nature is an important part of how we will address climate change and the very real challenges it presents. That's why on June 5, World Environment Day, our government announced over 60 conservation projects under development across Canada. They'll conserve Canadian nature and biodiversity and protect species at risk, enhance ecological integrity and connectivity, and enhance the size of Canada's vast network of protected areas. Nearly half of these projects are indigenous-led, with the aim of creating indigenous-protected conserved areas. Madam Chair, projects like these move us closer to our goal of protecting 25% of Canada's lands and oceans by 2025. By working together in partnership with the provinces, territories, municipalities, indigenous peoples and Canadians, together we can protect our natural environment for generations to come. Ratansi, since you have 25 seconds left, we will go to the honourable member for Surrey Centre. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): Madam Chair, there are many small and medium-sized businesses in my riding of Surrey Centre. They saw a decrease in business or needed to close their doors completely in order to adhere to public safety measures to manage the spread of COVID-19. These measures helped keep our most vulnerable citizens safe and ensured that our hospital and health care providers did not become overwhelmed with a sharp spike in cases. Thanks to our government's COVID-19 emergency response, many of these businesses have been able to keep their employees and access important liquidity through the Canada emergency business account, which provides loans to small businesses and non-profits, and the Canada emergency wage subsidy, which is helping businesses to keep and rehire their employees while their revenues are down by providing up to 75% of wages for up to 24 weeks. As we begin to reopen the economy and Canadians across the country return to the job market, those benefits will be even more important to help businesses and industries rehire their staff and make important adjustments to align with public health guidelines to gradually increase their operations. Can the minister please update the committee on how many Canadian businesses have taken advantage of CEBA and CEWS since applications for each have been opened? hon. mary ng: Madam Chair, I want to begin by thanking the member for Surrey Centre for all the work he does to support his constituents and small businesses. Canadians across the country need to know our government has been working tirelessly and will continue to work tirelessly on their behalf. This is why we put in place the important programs to help them get through this crisis during this difficult time, programs such as the wage subsidy program. The wage subsidy has helped these businesses keep their employees on the payroll and are now helping in their rehiring as they slowly and safely restart. There are 348,000 businesses being helped with the wage subsidy program, and this means that 2.6 million workers are being helped. Businesses are also being helped through the interest-free $40,000 loan they can access through CEBA to help stay afloat and pay their expenses during this crisis. I'm pleased to inform this House that to date more than 669,000 the acting chair (mrs. Madam Chair, with so many recent reports and videos of police using force, sometimes deadly force, and violence against indigenous and black people in Canada, I've called for the public safety committee to reconvene. If the members agree, will the minister come to the committee and provide concrete answers as to how the government intends to address racism inherent in Canada's law enforcement, and in particular the RCMP? hon. Madam Chair, indigenous people, black Canadians and other racialized people are far too often experiencing systemic racism and disparate outcomes within the entire criminal justice system. In order to respond appropriately, I think it's necessary to begin by acknowledging the lived experience of people who've known bias and discrimination at the hands of the police and our courts and within our prisons. We remain committed to working with all racialized people and all of the members of this House to ensure that we work toward social justice for all Canadians, and I look forward to discussing the member's motion further with him. jack harris: Will the minister and the government commit to facilitating such a meeting of this committee virtually? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, the decisions of the committee are the committee's, so I'm sure that this will be a discussion within the committee, but if called, I will certainly be pleased to come with my officials to provide the committee with whatever support and information it needs to contribute to this very important discussion. jack harris: In light of what we've seen with Chief Adam in Fort McMurray and the RCMP accepting that the actions were reasonable, will the minister commit to a full review of the use of force by the RCMP, in particular the philosophy, tactics and training that is given to RCMP officers in dealing with the public? hon. bill blair: I thank the member and I want to assure him, first of all, that this is work that is ongoing, not just in the RCMP but throughout the police community. May I also take this opportunity, Madam Chair, to say that I think all police training has to begin with one very important principle, and that's the preservation of all life and the respect for all Canadians. We're committed to continuing to work with indigenous communities, racialized communities and with police services and all participants in the criminal justice system to make sure that it is fair for all Canadians. lindsay mathyssen (londonfanshawe, ndp): Madam Chair, we need more justice for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. This government recognizes that systemic racism exists but refuses to collect race-based data that would allow us to quantify and truly address this injustice. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): Madam Chair, our government agrees that it's important that we collect data, and that's exactly why, in the anti-racism secretariat and the anti-racism strategy, there is a commitment to have money go to Statistics Canada to collect race-based data. lindsay mathyssen: Madam Chair, we know that Statistics Canada will start to collect job numbers based on race. This will allow us to identify systemic racism where it is and where we need to ensure a fair and more equal job market for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. Why is this government refusing to follow suit so we can tackle systemic racism everywhere, in every sector? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for her question. She's absolutely correct in her assessment that we need to collect more data, reliable data, data that will help us deal with some of the challenges we're seeing with systemic discrimination, but, more broadly, we want to make sure that we continue to engage with an anti-racism strategy that will allow us to collect that disaggregated data. That is why we allocated $6.2 million to that initiative through Statistics Canada, but we know we must do more and we will do more. lindsay mathyssen: We know that all people are susceptible to catching COVID-19, but health authorities are clear that parts of cities like Montreal and Toronto have been more impacted than others. For black and racialized people living in these cities, this data is a matter of life and death. Will the government collect and share disaggregated data so we can identify and erase systemic racism, yes or no? hon. bardish chagger: Madam Chair, making decisions based on science and evidence is essential for our government. It is exactly the step we will take moving forward and that's why we are making those investments to ensure that data exists. I look forward to continuing to work not only with all ministers, departments and agencies, but all allies and all parties to get this work done. carol hughes): Mr.Blaney, the honourable member for BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, has the floor. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): Thank you, MadamChair. Last week, my plumber told me that, each time Justin Trudeau comes down the steps to make announcements totalling several billion dollars, he feels like someone is rifling through his pockets. My question is simple and goes to the Minister of Finance: where is this money coming from? hon. steven blaney: The answer I would have liked is simple: we are borrowing the money and we are going to have to pay it back one day. That is another Liberal craze: they borrow money, they make campaign promises, and off they go. Under the Conservative government, the Chantier Davie in Lvis had 1,700workers for the supply ship Asterix. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): MadamChair, we are very proud of the Chantier Davie and we completely understand its role in the system. We are going to establish the process for the polar ice-breaker, which is essential for the work of the Coast Guard in northern communities, and we are going to make sure that the acting chair (mrs. There is money in the Canada summer jobs program: in my constituency alone, $150,000has been approved. What is the minister waiting for in order to confirm those positions? In my constituency, and everywhere else in the country, our young people want to work. What is the government waiting for in order to send some cash to the Canada summer jobs program? hon. We are introducing flexibilities into the system to enable employers to be able to hire summer students. The money is available; where is the announcement? MadamChair, our young people are not the only ones who want to work. Let me use Jessie Gito as an example; he has been working at Plate2000 in Saint-Anselme for years. When the time came to renew his work permit, he found out that he has to have some biometric tests. Is the minister going to allow Jessie Gito and the thousands of other temporary foreign workers who want to work to be able to do so until the government biometric testing centres reopen? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, it is important for the honourable member to recognize that we are in the early recovery stage of the pandemic. We will ensure that we support both our students and our temporary foreign workers to make sure we get the recovery right. We've introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that employers are able to take advantage of the program and give opportunities to young people. Then, when the government's biometric testing centres are open again, he will gladly go to one. Young people want to work in agriculture as well, and the minister has told us that the government wants young people working and that their files will be processed as quickly as possible. She wants to create 700positions and she knows that people can fill in an application on a first-come first-served basis. Of those 700positions, how many have been confirmed to date? The good weather has arrived, the corn is starting to grow, and this is the time when farmers need the young workers. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): MadamChair, the program for young workers in agriculture is open. This is a program that is not only intended to provide summer jobs, but also to interest young people in making a career in agriculture. doug shipley (barriespringwateroro-medonte, cpc): Thank you, Chair. Over the course of the pandemic, has the government been using all avenues possible to source much-needed PPE in Canada? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, we have been very clear that we have a made-in-Canada initiative that has engaged companies across the country. Over 700 companies have retooled and scaled up their operations for personal protective equipment to help front-line health care workers. doug shipley: Madam Chair, I need to ask very quickly which ministry and minister are responsible for the sourcing of PPE in Canada. I work with the Minister of Health and the minister for procurement , and we coordinate with the provinces and territories to make sure there are appropriate levels of PPE to help front-line health care workers and essential workers across the country. For over 37 years, it has provided front-line health care workers with an extensive line of PPE and other essential products required when dealing with respiratory illnesses. Southmedic currently employs over 700 people, and it has been recognized as one of Canada's best-managed companies by Deloitte on numerous occasions. Since the beginning of the pandemic, both I and the member for BarrieInnisfil have been attempting to obtain some assistance for Southmedic from the federal government. I received a letter back from the minister dated May 27 indicating that this issue of Southmedic falls under the mandate of the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. When will the federal government reach out and help this great Canadian company and therefore ensure that all front-line workers will have the proper PPE they require? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for his question. Since then, we've seen over 6,000 companies step up to offer solutions and ideas, and over 700 companies have retooled their efforts. I acknowledge that some companies are still engaging with the government, and we'll continue to explore all possible options to make sure we continue to procure the necessary levels of personal protective equipment to protect Canadians and to protect front-line health care workers. Moving on to a different issue, while walking to my office this morning, I stopped at my local small family-run coffee shop and was discussing the current economic situation with the two owners of the establishment. The only thing keeping them hopeful is that soon the public service will start returning to work, and therefore their business will begin to return. Could the government please give us some indication as to what the plans are for returning the civil service back to work safely, and when? hon. This is a very important topic, but I'd like to take the opportunity first to thank our public servants, who have worked very hard in the last few weeks, both personally and professionally. In fact, today is a wonderful day to say that, because today is the start of National Public Service Week. They've been at work for the last few monthsin different circumstances, but they have been working very hard to deliver the services and the support Canadians need and deserve. carol hughes): Next we'll go to the honourable member for SelkirkInterlakeEastman, Mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I want to thank the great men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces for the fantastic job they're doing in Operation LASER, serving on the front lines battling COVID-19. Can the Minister of National Defence give the House an update on exactly where we are at with the number of Canadian Armed Forces members who have been infected with COVID-19? hon. sajjan (minister of national defence): Madam Chair, I want to echo the member opposite's comments in thanking our Canadian Armed Forces members. Currently, we have 13 active cases in the Canadian Armed Forces, but in the long-term care facilities we currently have 50 cases. james bezan: Through you, Chair, Minister Sajjan, does that number of active cases include the active cases that are in long-term care facilities right now in Operation LASER? hon. sajjan: Madam Chair, as I stated, the 50 cases are strictly from the long-term care facilities. Sajjan say how many of those cases in long-term care facilities are active and how many are recovered? hon. What I can say to break it down further is that in Quebec we currently have 36 and in Ontario we have 14. The President of the Treasury Board has said, The Canadian Armed Forces will be present as long as their presence is needed in Quebec. This contradicts what Prime Minister Trudeau is saying, which is that we have a hard deadline of June 26 for the withdrawal of our troops for Operation LASER. We've been in very extensive discussions with the Province of Quebec, with my counterpart Minister Guilbault, and we are working very diligently to ensure we have a sustained, appropriate response to the request from Quebec for assistance. That response will result in a transition from the currently deployed Canadian Armed Forces to the deployment of paid volunteers, trained personnel who will take on the important role of providing services to those Canadians who need our help in Quebec. The Department of National Defence auditors have called out the Liberal government for mismanagement over the $553-billion investment in our Canadian military through the defence policy. This is a $553-billion investment in our armed forces, and only three people are managing it. Could the minister tell us how that is even possible? Is this the reason that over 100 projects are currently behind schedule? hon. sajjan: Madam Chair, first of all, I want to highlight the unprecedented investment that we're making in defence. When it comes to the management of this, it's conducted by me and the minister of procurement . Are we going to see more cuts because you have been unable to actually roll out these dollars? hon. carol hughes): Before I go to the next speaker, I want to remind members that they are to address their questions and comments directly through the chair. david yurdiga (fort mcmurraycold lake, cpc): Madam Chair, the Canada summer jobs program has many challenges. I've seen many indigenous communities in my riding rejected for funding even though they had received funding in previous years. Here are a few examples of communities that were rejected: Beaver Lake Cree Nation, Buffalo Lake Mtis Settlement and the Mtis Nation of Alberta, Region 1. Could the Prime Minister explain why so many indigenous communities have been denied funding from the Canada summer jobs program? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, we recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in our community across the country every year. We're working very hard to help employers adapt to the realities of the COVID-19 pandemic and are supporting young Canadians as they begin to look for summer employment. We are introducing increased flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth, while also providing more supports to employers that deliver essential services to Canadians. Why are so many indigenous communities left out of the Canada summer jobs program? This is very important to my community and to communities throughout the province. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we, of course, value the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in all communities, including indigenous communities in Canada. I will certainly have an off-line conversation with the honourable member, if he so wishes, about a particular issue, but I can assure him that in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had to assist employers to introduce flexibilities the acting chair (mrs. david yurdiga: Madam Chair, in my riding, the City of Cold Lake has been in dispute with the federal government for many years over payment in lieu of taxes. Could the Minister of Public Services and Procurement give me a rough estimate of when I will receive a response from the minister's office to my first letter, from 2017, and my letters from 2018, 2019 and 2020? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will go to the minister, and we will come back with an answer to his question. david yurdiga: How much longer does the minister intend to perpetuate the ongoing PILT dispute, which is in excess of $11 million, with the City of Cold Lake? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, once again, I can assure the honourable member that I will speak with the minister and get an answer to his question. david yurdiga: Well, do you know what? I've been writing letters to the department for many years. When you say you're going to get back to me, I really have a hard time believing that. Will the minister agree to follow the prior recommendations of the dispute advisory panel that were accepted by the minister? hon. david lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will check with the minister and that she will return to the member in due course. david yurdiga: Madam Chair, the drug Trikafta has been proven to increase the quality of life for 90% of cystic fibrosis patients. Two weeks ago, my office sent a letter to the Minister of Health about the boy in my riding named Cael, who through the special access program is able to get Trikafta in Canada. I requested that the minister use her powers to fast-track Trikafta for commercial use, but I have yet to receive a response back. patty hajdu: Madam Chair, I'm glad to hear that Cael was able to access Trikafta through the special access program. In fact, that program is very helpful for people who are seeking access to medication that's not currently marketed in Canada. As the member opposite knows, Vertex has not applied to market Trikafta in Canada, but we look forward to their application, and I encourage him to write a letter to the manufacturer to also encourage them. I was very troubled to hear that a CBC radio host in the Yukon felt compelled to resign because, as an indigenous person, she could not speak her truth. While we know the Broadcasting Act states that the Canadian broadcasting system should reflect the linguistic duality and multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of indigenous peoples, it would seem there are some challenges. Therefore, does the Minister of Heritage share the concern of some journalists that problems of systemic racism in Canada are still existing within the institution of the CBC, and will the government now acknowledge the need to recognize the jurisdiction of indigenous governments? hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): Thank you, Madame Chair; and I thank the member for this important question. As stated by the Prime Minister on numerous occasions, our government recognizes that systemic racism exists in Canada, and we have made a commitment to do everything we can to combat it in whichever organization of the Canadian government. I understand these issues to be ones that challenge societal norms, that are not politically expedient to address because they can lose you votes, even though addressing them is morally right and a smart thing to do. In the justice system, examples include mandatory minimum penalties, defunding police, and even investing in restorative justice. Surely now these issues are politically less of a consideration than the tragic reality of even more slain indigenous Canadians at the hands of police, or thousands of indigenous people still incarcerated or living in poverty. Will this government please finally commit to the necessary work originally promised in 2015 and repeal in the justice system the vast majority of mandatory minimum penalties, assuring the necessary discretion for judges, and meaningfully invest in restorative justice measures? hon. david lametti: Madame Chair, I thank the honourable member for her question, as well as for her work as Minister of Justice, and indeed my predecessor. This is a time when we recognize systemic over-incarceration of indigenous peoples, of black peoples, in our criminal justice system. This is a time when we need to look at all potential options to reduce what is a shameful overrepresentation in our criminal justice system. Too often racialized peoples and indigenous peoples have experienced prejudice and systemic discrimination in our justice system, and that has to change. Many of the deaths are related to COVID-19 measures that have prevented people from accessing supervised consumption sites, so they are overdosing alone. While the provinces welcomed the federal backing of safe supply exemption back in March, it is to expire in September of 2020. Will the government provide the necessary supports to the province and help support safe supply initiatives in the provinces? hon. patty hajdu: It's been a pleasure to work with the Province of British Columbia on innovative ways to work on the tragic situation of opioid overdose. I remain committed to working with the province and in fact any province that wants to work towards solutions that treat people who use substances with the dignity they deserve. We're working closely with our partners to make sure that we can prevent more lives from being lost. carol hughes): We will go to the honourable member for South OkanaganWest Kootenay, Mr. richard cannings (south okanaganwest kootenay, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. They've been serving great food for 40 years, but now they're struggling, because they don't qualify for the emergency wage subsidy. The new owner can't use a year-to-year comparison to apply for the wage subsidy because he didn't own the restaurant last spring. He is forced to use receipts from January and February, the darkest doldrums of the restaurant year, to compare with the results from May, traditionally one of their best months. When will the government fix this inequity and let Theo's compete and survive? hon. mona fortier: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency wage subsidy is supporting over 2.5 million workers across the country. To help even more businesses support their workers and rehire people as they reopen, our government is extending the CEWS, and we will continue to extend the CEWS for an additional 12 weeks to August 29 to ensure that Canadian workers continue to have the support they need during these very difficult times. By extending eligibility, our government is ensuring that more Canadian workers in more sectors have the support they need. richard cannings: The owner just wants to be able to apply for the wage subsidy, and right now he cannot, and he will not be able to. Canada's forest sector has been declared essential during this pandemic, but it's been hit hard after a very difficult 2019. Despite soft markets and thousands out of work, government support programs have left many Canadian forest product companies behind. In my riding, the pulp mill in Castlegar is closing for the month of July because local sawmills aren't producing enough wood chips. What is the government going to do to finally support Canadian forestry workers and communities? the acting chair (mrs. carol hughes): The time is almost up, but I will allow for the answer from the honourable minister. In fact, in Quebec, partnering with Les Bois Francs DV Inc., we have widened market access to our products and updated technology systems. In Vancouver we're working with FPInnovations to create the indigenous forest sector technical support program. carol hughes): Now we go to the honourable member for SkeenaBulkley Valley, Mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to pick up where my colleague left off, with B.C.'s forest industry. are multiple rounds of mill shutdowns and start-ups, and in some cases this has made it difficult for forestry workers to qualify for EI. My question to the minister is this: Will the minister work to make the EI program more flexible for forestry workers, similar to what this government has done for oil and gas workers? hon. That has been key in the inactive and orphan well program, which we are working on with the provincial governments of Saskatchewan, British Columbia and Alberta. The focus on workers has assured that success, and we will continue to focus on workers in all the industries, particularly our natural resource industry, as they go through this extraordinarily difficult time. taylor bachrach: Madam Chair, reforestation is a very important part of the forest industry in the riding I represent, and people were keenly interested to hear this government's plan to plant two billion trees in the next 10 years. I'm wondering if the minister could tell us how many trees are going to be planted under this program by the end of this season. We are working with forestry associations, the industry and with individual companies to ensure this tree-planting season will be one of the largest the country has ever seen. rhal fortin (rivire-du-nord, bq): MadamChair, last week, the government introduced BillC-17 and the Minister of Justice sent us briefing notes in which he said that it was important to suspend a number of time limits and to extend others, and that the failure to do so could have important repercussions on Canadians, their families, their situations, their finances and their ability to exercise their rights. We have addressed the mandatory time limits in federal legislation as well as certain time limits that courts may not be able to handle. The minister's briefing notes say that, among other things, when it comes to divorcewhich means children are involved people are waiting on custody rights, child support and visitation rights. The minister pointed out that the national security review would require consultations if no decision is made in the prescribed time frame. rhal fortin: MadamChair, what a coincidence, because I beseech my colleague opposite to debate it with us. Last week, the leader of the Bloc Qubcois asked the Liberal government to debate BillC-17 today. Richard Wagner, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who is hardly a dimwit or greenhorn, told us that the justice system needs to be modernized. As recently as this past Saturday in LaPresse, Justice Wagner said that it is essential that the Criminal Code be amended to address the backlog of court proceedings. When will the Liberal government opposite pull up its socks, do its job, govern the federation, sit down with the opposition and discuss the vital matters in BillC-17? hon. pablo rodriguez: MadamChair, if I were my colleague, I would be a little embarrassed, because the bill was sent to the Bloc Qubcois several days in advance. When we asked for the support of the Bloc Qubcois and the other parties to debate itwe were not even asking them to vote in favour of the billthey refused. For example, we asked the Liberals to put the money back into the wage subsidy fund and to commit to dip into it no longer. pablo rodriguez: Can my colleague explain to me what the emergency wage subsidy has to do with a bill about justice? This is an absolutely fundamental piece of legislation. rhal fortin: MadamChair, I would like nothing better than to explain it to him, but I must remind him that he is the leader of the party in power, the party that is supposed to govern the country. I am thinking of families, child support, child custody, labour law disputes in Federal Court, marine transportation, interprovincial transportation, aviation, banks, and those with grievances waiting for a Federal Court ruling. The whole system, the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal, everything is on hold because nobody in the government wants to do their job. However, when we asked the Bloc Qubcois if they wanted to debate the bill, they said no, instead of doing what they usually do and saying yes. When the CERB runs out, many workers in my riding of Essex will not have sufficient hours to collect their EI benefits. Because of the shutdown, a mom-to-be who had just returned to work in January, and several hundred of her fellow employees, may not have the 600 hours required for regular or EI parental benefits. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency response benefit has been providing much-needed help to Canadian workers across the country who have stopped working due to COVID-19. We know that there is still a lot of uncertainty for many Canadian workers, and we know that many will be exhausting their benefits in the weeks to come. We will have more to share soon, as early as this week, on our continuing efforts to support Canadian workers and make sure that help is available during this the acting chair (mrs. We will continue to make sure that we make the necessary investments in the EI delivery system and modernize it to continue to meet the acting chair (mrs. mary ng: Madam Chair, today we are seeing small businesses that have been helped, whether it is getting access to the small business loan, which some are also using in the restart as they are safely restarting, or getting help with their payroll, helping them keep their employees the acting chair (mrs. How will the government incentivize workers to return to their jobs when recalled? the acting chair (mrs. mary ng: The Canada emergency wage subsidy is an excellent program to help those employees stay employed and for those employers who are looking at rehiring them right now during this restart process. chris lewis: Madam Chair, many of my constituents are in a committed cross-border relationship and have not been able to see their partners in quite some time. bill blair: Madam Chair, as we said from the outset, we've implemented restrictions at the U.S. border on non-essential travel with a single purpose in mind: to protect the health and safety of Canadians. As the member is aware, just last week we introduced new measures that allow people in family relationships to stay together as long as they commit to the necessary 14-day period of quarantine. chris lewis: Madam Chair, with regard to child care, as our economy continues to open, parents are facing a stark choice: Who will care for their children? What's the plan to provide access to child care so parents can confidently return to work? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, we are of course committed to continuing to make the record investments that we've been making in child care. We're committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces. It sounds as though this government has a desire to force parents to choose between their job and care for their child<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 23rd meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those of you who are joining via video conference, I will remind you that when speaking you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking, and please use your headsets. I remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, I ask that they please come and drop their signed certificates off at the table once the petition is presented. I would ask members to be very brief and concise, and to summarize the exact content of the petition. The residents of SaanichGulf Islands are calling on the government to simplify the process for protection of marine protected areas. The marine protected area first proposed in the 1970s for the southern Strait of Georgia, now called the Salish Sea, has been awaiting designation for so long that it was originally endorsed by Jacques Cousteau. The second petition is from petitioners who are very concerned about our obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and our commitments under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action. They specifically reference the RCMP violation of UNDRIP in its actions on Wet'suwet'en territory and ask the government to commit to actually living the principles embodied in UNDRIP. I am presenting a petition on behalf of the one in a million Canadians who suffer severe and adverse effects from vaccinations. GuillainBarre syndrome is very debilitating, and this petition seeks the setting up of a no-fault accident or compensation system to help offset the loss of work, the loss of wages and the loss of quality of life that many of these people suffer. denis trudel (longueuilsaint-hubert, bq): Mr.Chair, culture is the soul of a people. Over the past 20years or so, culture, especially music, has never been as accessible as it is now. The advent of digital technology has completely overturned the system for distributing the wealth generated by creators for the benefit of various Web stakeholders, many of whom are billionaires. The third is for Internet and cell phone providers who sell their services as direct access to culture to share their profits with artists. Six thousand people have already signed the first version of this petition, launched last month by musician JordanOfficer and supported by singer BarbaraSecours. As an artist, I am proud to present this petition today because the issues it raises are fundamental to the survival of Quebec culture. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr. I will be as brief as you suggested, although I will observe that if some members are going on longer during petitions than they normally do, it might be because the government has taken away so many of the tools that opposition members normally have for raising important issues in the House. The petitioners are concerned that instead of focusing on improving medically assisted life, something that we know is a major issue in light of recent revelations, the government has put so much time and legislative energy into efforts to continually further expand euthanasia in Canada and remove vital safeguards. The reality of the way that bill applies is that people from certain backgrounds who wish to practise their faith are not able to fully participate in Canadian society if they are employed in the public service. This petition asks the government to provide a response on that issue, something it hasn't done in response to past petitions on this. The petitioners want to see the government take a strong response in dealing with illegal guns and gun smuggling. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in place substantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with Bill S-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that bill as soon as possible. These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to the OAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors. the chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they are asked to bring their petitions to the table. June 21 is National Indigenous Peoples Day, a day of acknowledgement and a day of celebration of the beautiful diversity of indigenous peoples across Turtle Island. I wish to recognize the leadership of Chief Shelley Sabattis of the Welamukotuk First Nation in Oromocto, New Brunswick. Each year she and her council, volunteers and staff go above and beyond to show appreciation for their members and to demonstrate pride and culture while promoting well-being. We gather in an event where all are welcome to take part, from traditional hand drum-making with elders to moose meat and tacos. This year we will celebrate a bit differently, but we will still stay connected, virtually and in spirit, to the vast network of indigenous peoples and allies. Chair, COVID-19 is an unprecedented challenge for all communities across Canada, but as we do our part to flatten the curve, I often think about those who suit up every morning to serve on the front lines of our health care system. Even before the crisis, they would often share the hardships they faced on a day-to-day basis. Share this message and say thanks to our front-line workers, participate in the 7 p.m. doug shipley (barriespringwateroro-medonte, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Slowly, we are getting back to some resemblance of normalcy, although unfortunately not soon enough for some of our great summer festivals. It will not be normal in BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte this summer without the iconic Boots and Hearts weekend music festival, Kempenfest, Oro World's Fair, the Elmvale Fall Fair, or the Midhurst Autumnfest. Because of the lack of Canada Day celebrations, I've created Happy Canada Day lawn signs that are available through my constituency office, free to all residents of BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte. I'm also hosting a drive-through party on Canada Day at the Royal Canadian Legion on St. Among the countless ordinary Canadians who have stepped up to do extraordinary work during COVID-19, I wish to draw attention to our teachers. My father was a teacher, and my daughter-in-law, Kelly Webb, is one now. I'm certain that my colleagues can all easily remember a teacher in their past who played an important role in helping them achieve their potential. This is not the school year anyone imagined, and what the next one will look like is unclear, but our teachers in London West and across Canada have shown that no matter what, they will be there to help our next generation shine. the chair: Before proceeding to the next presenter, I just want to remind the honourable members in the chamber that I realize that the six-foot limit makes it harder to whisper to each other, but we're hearing a bit of rumble, so I just want you to try to whisper at your best. stphane bergeron (montarville, bq): Mr.Chair, on July1st, we will be celebrating one of the most important events for the riding of Montarville: the 175thanniversary of the city of Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville. The theme Proud of our traditions will be the focus of this celebration for the people of Montarville. This is a good illustration of the rich history of this municipality nestled in the western foothills of Mont-Saint-Bruno. The seigneury of Montarville was granted in1710 to the illustrious former governor of Trois-Rivires, PierreBoucher. The parish of Saint-Bruno, which took root there and in which a village grew, became a municipal corporation in1845. To this day, it is one of the most prosperous localities, with a strong sense of belonging, a very dynamic community life and jealously preserved natural environments. A whole program had been drawn up for the celebration, but the current health crisis has taken over some of the planned activities, which has in no way diminished the pride and festive spirit of the people of Montarville. Chair, thank you for allowing me to take a moment to highlight an initiative that I started early on during the COVID-19 pandemic. The Heroes of EtobicokeLakeshore is an opportunity for citizens in my riding to recognize the contributions of those in their community who make life a bit easier. I'm pleased with the number of nominations I received that honour everyone from front-line workers to businesses that are innovating in these difficult times to volunteers who are finding new ways to reach out. I think of Daniel Lauzon who set up Food for Now, a mobile service that helps take care of the homeless. I think of Toni Varone, who helped his business clients by forgiving their rents, or young Lucas, who wanted to thank his teachers. I've been moved and inspired by the countless stories of generosity, strength, resiliency, kindness, incredible character and creativity. Chair, it gives me great pleasure to thank a local Richmond-based charity, the Social Diversity for Children Foundation, SDC, for its hard work both in raising funds for the purchase of personal protective equipment and in distributing this PPE to long-term care facilities and individual seniors' homes in the lower mainland of B.C. The COVID-19 relief fund is supported by a dozen other non-profits, businesses and community groups. It is amazing to have witnessed how the younger generation have gotten involved in caring for the elderly at this very challenging time. Chair, June is ALS Awareness Month, and 79 years after Lou Gehrig died from ALS little has changed. On June 21, Canadians will gather virtually to raise funds for ALS Canada in the Walk to End ALS. In Halton, normally we meet each year at Bronte Creek Provincial Park on the May long weekend to raise funds for ALS Canada. This year I will virtually join Tim's Titans, a team formed to honour Tim Robertson, my friend who died in 2016 after living with ALS for 13 years. I have a T-shirt, with a picture of Lou Gehrig, that says, Great Player...Lousy Disease and Tim's Titans...Great Team! ALS...Still a Lousy Disease. Join me on June 21 for the virtual Walk to End ALS to raise funds to support patients and their families and for ALS research. The peaceful protests that we're seeing across the country and around the world were not triggered by an isolated incident. They are fuelled by decades of ineffective action against something that is so insidious and deeply entrenched in our history, systems and institutions. It exists when a shocking report exposes the Peel District School Board's failure to work fairly with the black community. It exists when D'Andre Campbell, who was fighting mental illness, loses his life at the hands of the police. We need to dismantle the systems that allow this privilege and oppression to take form, and address the unconscious bias plaguing our institutions. Chair, a few months ago I rose in the House on the eve of our closure due to COVID-19. I told Canadians we must not give in to fear, that we would carry on and get through this crisis stronger than ever. Businesses are reopening, jobs are returning and our lives are starting to feel a bit normal again. Canadians pulled together, and because of that we did not see the devastating death toll that many had predicted. Life may be returning to normal, but unfortunately, here in this chamber of democracy, the people's voices continue to be shut down. In the words of my grandfather, it's time for the Liberals to get with the program and bring back the House. Chair, from in-person learning to virtual classrooms, COVID-19 has drastically changed the lives of students across the country, especially those in post-secondary education who are worried about covering costs like tuition or rent this coming fall. Our government recognized that students should not have to worry or put their futures on pause during this difficult time. If you're a high school student headed to a post-secondary school, or a current post-secondary student or a recent graduate, you can receive the Canada emergency student benefit every four weeks and have the financial support that you need to save for school. We also doubled Canada student grants and loans, enhanced the student loan program, increased supports for indigenous post-secondary education and introduced the Canada student service grant for those who wish to pursue it. I wish them all the very best, and I wish all of you, my colleagues and those across Canada, a very happy National Indigenous Peoples Day, which is coming up on June 21. the chair: I want to remind the honourable members to keep to their 60 seconds so that we don't go over the time. Chair, I rise today to once again implore the government to do something about the horrible lack of access to and crazy cost of rural Internet service. Right now, too many areas of my riding have no access to rural Internet service at all, and those who can get service are paying through the nose. I've even heard constituents say that during this pandemic, they are having to choose between feeding their kids and educating them. Is that too much to ask of the government? the chair: We'll now go to Mr. Chair, these last few months have been incredibly challenging for the residents of CowichanMalahatLangford, who have been forced to deal with the economic and social consequences of COVID-19. The pandemic has laid bare the inadequacies of our social safety net, the weakness in our supply chains and the dependence of our society on essential workers, who often work long hours for low wages, putting themselves and their families at risk. We've also been forced to confront the systemic inequality, poverty and racism that continue to hold so many people back from achieving their full potential. I will not dishonour the sacrifice that so many have made during this time by allowing us to go back to the status quo that got us here in the first place. I will not apologize for demanding that the most vulnerable in our society get the supports and opportunities they need to live with dignity, and I will not relent from pushing my political colleagues to summon the courage necessary to implement policies that lead to environmental, economic and social justice. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): Mr.Chair, here is a beautiful story, the story of a woman from Bellechasse, a courageous young mother from Saint-Malachie, Marie-ChristineGoupil. With three children, including the eldest daughter with a disability, and realizing that her daughter with a disability had special clothing needs, she decided to go into business to meet the needs of other parents who, like her, were facing their child's clothing challenges. Marie-ChristineGoupil has discovered a passion for entrepreneurship and has moved and inspired many people with her passionate and courageous attitude. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I lend my voice to the Chief of the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec-Labrador, GhislainPicard, whose message is as follows: There have been no fewer than 14reports and conclusions of commissions of inquiry since1967 highlighting major problems in relations between law enforcement agencies and indigenous people. Are you going to respond, as you too often do, by moving on to the next one, or are you going to do what we expect you to do, which is to recognize that the justice system discriminates against indigenous people and that we have no less right to security than the rest of the population? In three months, police interventions have claimed more victims among our members than the pandemic. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): Over the last few months, Canada's democracy has been disregarded and an autocracy has been resurrected in its place. In 2014, he professed that Canadians want their Members of Parliament to be effective voices for their communities in Ottawa, and not merely mouthpieces for an all-too-powerful Prime Minister. A government that does not allow for effective opposition is not functioning in the best interest of Canadians; it is operating in the best interest of itself and, even more so, the interest of the Prime Minister. Canadians deserve to flourish in a democracy, not merely survive under the autocracy that this Prime Minister has created. Chair, I would like to recognize the work of Agincourt Community Services Association and its tireless executive director, Lee Soda, who have been serving our community during the COVID-19 pandemic. Under more pressure than ever, their staff and volunteers continue to serve a community whose need was great even before the crisis. They have opened outdoor washrooms and hand-washing stations for vulnerable communities and are delivering groceries and other essentials to vulnerable seniors. ACSA is a bridge between those who can help and those who need help, and they are just one example of how our community has come together to meet this challenge. There are restaurants and businesses donating meals to front-line workers, residents answering the call to stock the food bank shelves and neighbours looking in on the vulnerable and isolated. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. Chair, for months Conservatives have been pointing out flaws in Liberal government programs that are preventing Canadians from getting the help they need. The Prime Minister has refused to make these very technical changes to get more help to Canadians who need it. For example, on the wage subsidy, more than two-thirds of the money allocated for that program has lapsed because businesses don't qualify. Will the Prime Minister change the program to allow companies who have made acquisitions to access the wage subsidy to keep more people working? right hon. Chair, from the very beginning we knew that as we rolled out measures, we would need to improve them and tweak them, and that's exactly what we've been doing over the past three months. But we continued to improve them, to make additions and amendments so that more people could get the help they needed, including with the proposed legislation last week that expanded the reach of the wage subsidy to more businesses. Chair, it was the Liberals who said no to the motion to allow this Parliament to sit to debate that motion, and even in that legislation they refused to allow businesses who have made acquisitions to access the program. Now, when we look at the rent relief program, it is so difficult to apply for it that many landlords are refusing to bother, leaving even more small businesses to fall through the cracks. In fact, of the $3 billion allocated to the rent relief program, only $39 million has been paid out. It's now June and he has refused to fix these programs and has successfully talked out the calendar on the days that the House of Commons could meet to discuss these programs. We recognize, in conversations with the premiers, how important it is to make sure that we're working together, the provinces and the federal government, on issues like rent subsidies where commercial rent is indeed a provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have moved forward with the eviction bans that are necessary to go along with this, and we'll continue to work with provinces to make sure that we're getting Canadians the help they need. He has run down the clock on parliamentary sittings and he still refuses to make these changes to get more help to Canadians. Some of these sites are very near sensitive government institutions, like government departments, the National Research Council, RCMP headquarters and the Bank of Canada. How long has the Prime Minister known that Huawei technology has been installed in the Ottawa area? right hon. Chair, first off, on the issue of Parliament, it has been meeting four times a week over the past many weeks, and members of the opposition have been able to continue to ask questions on COVID-19 and a broad range of subjects. Moreover, every two weeks the finance department puts forward at the finance committee the full transparent measures that we've taken, so that parliamentarians can study them. justin trudeau: in regard to Huawei technology there are strict rules for companies to follow and we assume they will all follow those. I want to remind the honourable members who are joining us virtually that heckling really does disrupt the whole session. Your face does come up and we do see who it is, so I just want to make sure that you're aware of that. Chair, throughout this unprecedented pandemic, we have been open and transparent about all of the measures we've put forward. Chair, the Prime Minister has pursued a policy of appeasement in pursuit of a personal vanity product at the UN. He's abandoned Israel and committed funding to UNRWA, an organization whose schools have been used as storage facilities for Hamas rockets against Israeli civilians, and whose facilities have served as breeding grounds for racism and anti-Semitism. He has apologized for the Iranian regime when it shot down a plane full of Canadian citizens, and he refuses to list the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist entity. What's the point of having a seat at the table if you have to sell out Canadian principles to get there? the chair: The Right Honourable Prime Minister. That's why, when we took office five years ago, we demonstrated the kind of leadership on values that Canadians expected. elizabeth may: This being a committee, we can have a point of order during what would have been question period. I am not sitting that far away from the Prime Minister, and I'm sorry, but Andrew Scheer used to be the Speaker of the House and should show better decorum. Chair, on the same point of order, it is disgusting for the leader of the Green Party to use decorum as an excuse to interrupt the Leader of the Opposition in the middle of critical lines of questioning. The leader of the Green Party knows the rules of the House and shouldn't be abusing them to advance a partisan agenda. andrew scheer: I appreciate the honourable leader of the Green Party, Elizabeth May, for that reminder. I just want to say to the member, and to all members, that the reason that I cannot control myself is that the Prime Minister used the word embarrassment in answering a foreign affairs question, and it just made me think of the India trip. yves-franois blanchet: Mr.Chair, while the Greens and the Conservatives are saying that they'll be waiting outside after the meeting, I will ask a question. The Prime Minister has extended the Canada emergency response benefit, and that's good news, but it's not enough. For us, it was also urgent to adjust the CERB to the needs of the tourism, arts and agriculture sectors. So what happened to the urgency of reforming the CERB? Why is the government refusing to talk to the opposition parties? right hon. We have unequivocally proposed to extend the debate to reach an agreement, which brings me to my second question. Last week, the issue of assistance to people with disabilities was also a pressing concern, and it's even more so a week later. The Bloc proposed to extend the discussions and split the government's bill in two to help people with disabilities. Why is the government refusing this assistance to people with disabilities, when it could have been debated with the opposition in a civilized and proper way in a Parliament in which it has a minority? right hon. justin trudeau: That was exactly what we wanted, but unanimous consent of the Chamber was required to debate this matter, and the Conservative Party of Canada voted against it. yves-franois blanchet: If the idea is so good and wonderful, why not start over and open the dialogue now? What's stopping the Prime Minister from being a rallying point and inviting us to take to each other and resolve the problem, rather than saying that he is going to pack up his toys and go home? The people with disabilities are the ones who will pay the price. Where was the Prime Minister on October21,2019? He received a minority mandate from Quebeckers and Canadians. Why is he behaving like something between a prime minister with a majority and a monarch by divine right? right hon. justin trudeau: I've heard the Conservative Party and the Bloc Qubcois throw their accusations around. They don't point out that the House of Commons did indeed give its consent to extend the mandate of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic until the end of June. Unfortunately, they too are part of a minority Parliament and must respect the voice of the majority of parliamentarians, just as we do. yves-franois blanchet: I might have been tempted, but that's unlikely to happen because the Prime Minister isn't me, he's him. In addition, the government wants to buy the right to interfere in provincial and Quebec jurisdictions for $14billion. However, Quebec and a number of provinces are refusing to allow it to interfere in their jurisdictions and are asking that this money be paid to them unconditionally. Is the Prime Minister trying to take advantage of the crisis or is he trying to create a constitutional crisis? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, the safety of Canadians is the responsibility of all levels of government. That's why we have proposed a $14billion agreement to ensure that all Canadians across the country experience a safe re-opening of the economy. This is a proposal that we are working on with the provinces because we know that there are needs across the country, including early childhood centres, screening and support for municipalities. Indigenous leaders have expressed a lack of confidence in the RCMP commissioner's ability to tackle full-scale systemic racism, but the Prime Minister has expressed his confidence in the commissioner. Chair, over the past two years, Commissioner Lucki has made significant strides forward on an issue where there is still much more to do. We know that systemic racism exists in all of our institutions across this country the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. jagmeet singh: This is the same RCMP commissioner who just recently said that they couldn't explain what systemic racism was. Why does the Prime Minister believe that the RCMP commissioner can tackle systemic racism in the RCMP? right hon. Chair, recent events have made it abundantly clear that to tackle the systemic racism at the level of the RCMP, we need a full-scale overhaul of the RCMP. Is the Prime Minister committed to a full-scale overhaul of the RCMP to root out systemic racism? right hon. Chair, I am committed to addressing systemic racism in this country and taking significant, bold actions to reduce the amount of discrimination that indigenous peoples, that racialized Canadians face on a daily basis. What it's saying is that we need to be better at where we spend our money, investing in communities and not policing. Will the Prime Minister commit to a review of the RCMP budget to allocate resources to community services and not to policing? right hon. Chair, over the past years we have been investing more directly and more money in community organizations, in the black community, and working with indigenous partners on the path to reconciliation. We have been investing in the kinds of community-based programs and solutions that are part of the solution. We know there is much more to do, and we will continue to look at all of our expenditures to make sure we're doing the right things. Chair, over the past few years, while the Prime Minister has been in office, the RCMP budget has increased by 31%. In recent events we've seen people who needed a health care response to a health care crisis been killed by the RCMP. Does the Prime Minister believe that we need to be investing in a health care response instead of a police response for people who are faced with a crisis? right hon. We need to make sure that our systems across the board, from our police systems to our judicial systems, to our health care systems, to our community systems, are actually addressing the systemic discrimination issues that are embedded within them That is exactly what we are going to continue to do in the coming years. Chair, with regard to the CERB extension, can the Prime Minister guarantee that everyone who is receiving CERB payments now will continue to do so without any gaps throughout the summer? right hon. Chair, I am happy to highlight that many Canadians who were on the CERB are now returning to work. We know that as the economy gets back to work, people will want to the chair: We will go back to Mr. jagmeet singh: Can the Prime Minister assure people who need it that they will continue to receive the CERB over the summer, yes or no? right hon. justin trudeau: We are very pleased to point out that we are going to extend the Canada emergency response benefit for at least another eight weeks, because a lot of people are going to need it. the chair: We're going to pause and suspend proceedings just for a few moments to allow our support staff to substitute for one another in a healthy and safe way. Chair, it was really a surprise in the middle of a pandemic to see the Prime Minister at his first campaign stop last week in Ottawa. He has a daily report show and he wants to sideline Parliament, dominate the news cycle and keep everyone in the dark about the state of the economy. According to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, there is no reason that he cannot provide the fiscal update during the COVID-19 pandemic, and the PBO has published a number of reports himself. Why won't the Prime Minister provide a fiscal update so we can all understand the state of our economy, or is that just not part of his campaign playbook? hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): Thank you, Mr. We will continue to be open and transparent about the actions that we are taking to support families, businesses, workers, our health care system and our economy. cathy mcleod: Chair, Canada's economy was in trouble prior to the COVID, with some of the worst numbers since 2009. Government revenues in March dropped by 7.2%, and it's shameful and, quite frankly, it's outrageous that they refuse to provide Parliament and Canadians with an economic update. Households during this challenging time know how much money is coming in and they know how much money is going out. mona fortier: The Canadian economy is going through a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID-19. We've continued to be open and transparent about the measures we've put in place for Canadians, workers and businesses. In fact, we have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of our plan's measures. As soon as it's possible to provide clear economic projections, we will provide a comprehensive update to Canadians the chair: We go back to Ms. cathy mcleod: Other governments have managed to provide updates for their citizens and carry out their responsibilities, but of course this government has sidelined Parliament with simply a question-but-no-answer period. The forestry industry was in crisis even before the pandemic, with mills closing down and thousands of jobs lost. Eight weeks ago, Minister Freeland said, I have had many discussions with leaders in our forestry sector and the provinces about what we can do to support the industry today. Meanwhile, we've had support going to the arts and we've had support going to fisheries, just to name a few, but arguably for the industry that was having some of the most numerous challenges, it has been radio silence. Can the government at least commit to releasing an updated softwood lumber transition plan before we rise? hon. Chair, we remain committed, of course, to the forestry industry and seeing it through this pandemic and this very uncertain time. The expanding market opportunities program, for instance, has helped Canada's forestry sector diversify, create jobs and open new markets. We've had new construction projects that are active today, using Canadian wood in key markets like Korea, Japan, China and the United States. Tomorrow this House will vote on our government's investment of $20.97 million for this program. It's part of our budget 2019 commitment to invest $251 million over three years, and I hope the opposition will support us in that. cathy mcleod: It was stated in a major newspaper this morning that this government is like a sexy sports carvroom, vroom, vroombut with a history of breakdowns and major repairs. The sector is also an essential link in the medical equipment supply chain, and we thank them for all the work they're doing. We're aware of the immense pressures faced by this sector, especially at this time, and Deputy Prime Minister Freeland and others are taking that seriously and working through this issue. duties on Canadian softwood lumber are unfair and unwarranted, and we will pursue all means in order to the chair: Before continuing, I want to remind honourable members who are at home to make sure that the boom on their headsets is down. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): Mr.Chair, before I ask my question, I'd like to pay tribute to the Minister of Justice, particularly to his versatility. I like Mr.Lametti very much, but I'd like Mr.Morneau to answer my question. Yesterday, in a Senate parliamentary committee, the Minister of Finance half-opened the door to an economic update. Based on what he said, it seems that, as we speak, a committee of the Department of Finance is working on an economic update. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, the Canadian economy is going through a period of extraordinary uncertainty. As soon as it's possible to provide clear economic projections, we will provide a full update to Canadians. Right now, we can say that we have supported workers, businesses and Canadians with the emergency measures we have put in place. We will continue to do so, because we need to be sure that Canadians can get through this crisis. We don't know when the economic update will take place, yet all across Canada, provinces are doing economic updates. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. In addition, 8.4million Canadians the chair: We are returning to Mr.Deltell. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for Canada? hon. mona fortier: Mr.Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an update the chair: Mr.Deltell has the floor. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost Canadians? hon. mona fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more than 2.5million the chair: Mr.Deltell has the floor. grard deltell: Mr.Chair, I have been trying for four minutes to get anything remotely resembling an answer, and I'm getting absolutely nothing. Why are the government and the Minister of Finance, Bill Morneau, not able to table an economic update when some provinces are able to? hon. We have continued to support businesses and Canadians during this time the chair: Mr.Deltell, you have time for a very brief question. grard deltell: The only thing that distinguishes the provinces that table economic updates and the current government is political will. As soon as it is possible to provide clear economic projections, we will provide Canadians with a full update. The difference between our government and the previous government is that we will actually consult with Canadians, including black Canadians, including Asian Canadians, to respond to the challenges, including with an anti-racism secretariat and an anti-racism strategy. Chair, this program was made possible by working with the provinces, and we will continue to encourage landlords and tenants to work together to make sure they have relief for this very difficult time in which they're living. We're continuing to monitor the CECRA program and we will make it possible for businesses to have access to the program. What is it going to take for the government to admit that the program is a disaster and needs changes? hon. Chair, we know our government has been working closely with the provinces and territories to deliver the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance. Although the tenant-landlord relationship is ultimately the responsibility of the provinces and territories, our government has stepped up to provide support through the tools we have and through CMHC so that small businesses can get the rent relief they need. At committee, we were told only around 5,500 of them are receiving COVID-19 rent relief. We will continue to monitor this program closely and ensure that Canada's small businesses are supported during this challenging time. Chair, I want to assure the honourable colleague that we are doing everything and will continue to do everything to help small businesses in our country. Chair, on May 27 the CBSA seized 65 small handguns at Pearson airport, the largest firearms seizure on record. Chair, I would point out that gun violence in any of our communities is unacceptable, and it's important that governments and communities take steps to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals. That's why we do important work at our border to keep guns from being smuggled into our country, but it also necessitates additional work. That's why our government has taken a very strong position and will strengthen gun control to keep Canadians safe. We know the Liberals' gun ban won't change anything, but a focus on smuggled guns and criminals will. Chair, stronger gun control laws are an effective tool, and that's been told to us by police leadership and communities across the country. is a strong partner of Canada, as is the European Union, and we're looking forward to continuing that strong relationship the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. With respect to the negotiations with the U.K., when will the minister publish her goals and objectives for this agreement? hon. Chair, we're going to continue to work to ensure that any future agreement is going to be based on the best interests of Canadians, and we will the chair: We will go back to Mr. randy hoback: Can the minister confirm whether they've entered into negotiations with the U.K. mary ng: Our government is analyzing the most-favoured-nation tariff regimes schedule the U.K. Chair, during the CUSMA negotiations, a deal was struck between the Liberal Party and the NDP that the government would notify this House 90 days before it starts any negotiations on any trade agreement. Right now, we are analyzing the most-favoured-nation tariff regimes schedule put out by the U.K. Has the minister discussed a WTO reform with the USTR, the United States trade representative? hon. mary ng: The Ottawa Group is a consensus-based group limited to WTO members who are committed to bringing forward ideas and proposals the chair: We'll go back to Mr. randy hoback: Just as with any other trade agreement, the minister has committed to this House that she will publish the list of goals and responsibilities for the negotiations. Chair, I'm thrilled that we had an excellent meeting of the Ottawa Group yesterday where, as a group, we agreed to take concrete action. randy hoback: Will the minister be releasing a list of Canada's objectives we would like to see the new WTO's director-general pursue prior to the upcoming DG election? hon. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robust mr. randy hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularly the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate. New Brunswick families and businesses are rapidly making adjustments to manage and live with the coronavirus pandemic. Chair, our government is committed to ensuring that Canadians continue to have access to the benefits that they rely on through Service Canada. We have redeployed over 3,000 additional staff to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to their benefits. We've established a 1,500-agent call centre to make sure that people can get access to the phone lines to get the help they need. Provincial governments are working hard to adjust to Canada's new normal by opening up businesses and front-line government services. Chair, we're currently working with our world-class public health experts to determine how best to reopen the Service Canada network for the public. Make no mistake: Our Service Canada employees have gone above and beyond to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to the services that they rely on and the benefits that they need. john williamson: Please don't hide behind health experts when the Prime Minister is appearing in the middle of large protests, yet is afraid to bring back the Parliament of Canada to do its business. Bills are being studied, opposition input is being heard and MLAs are voting on legislation, not rubber-stamping government bills. When will the government table an economic update so taxpayers understand what was spent, what is owed by our kids and grandchildren, and what the government's fiscal footing looks like? hon. The only reason my colleague is able to ask a question and I'm able to answer his question is that he's right there on the screen. We have this hybrid format that cares for MPs across the country, not only the ones sitting in the House. When will the government table an economic update so that taxpayers understand what was spent, what is owed by our kids and grandchildren, and what the government's fiscal footing looks like in today's environment? hon. We have been open and transparent about the measures we have been providing to support families, businesses and workers. Again I will ask when the government will table an economic update so that we can have an understanding of what the government's fiscal footing looks like. Chair, we have included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update. john williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to Parliament? hon. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2.5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. stphane bergeron: Mr.Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpicking? the honourable patty hajdu (minister of health): Mr.Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety recommendations for workplaces, we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program. stphane bergeron: The co-operation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal government's coffers. We see it with housing, for which Quebec has not received a dime of the $1.4billion it is owed. pablo rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around, no quibbling, nothing of the kind. There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to co-operate with Quebec and all the provinces. stphane bergeron: We don't want to bicker, we want the money to be paid out. There is $1.4billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the federal government's coffers. We are waiting for money for water treatment and water systems, but it is sitting in the federal government's coffers. What is the government waiting for to pay out the money so that we can get our economy rolling? hon. stphane bergeron: MadamChair, things are definitely at a standstill, because the money is owed and has not been paid out. We need more flexibility in the gas tax program and Quebec's contribution to allow municipalities to undertake work on city halls, community centres and fire stations. We need the federal government to contribute to funding public transit operations, which have become a real financial drain because of the drop in ridership. pablo rodriguez: When it comes to just talking, the Bloc Qubcois has a lot of experience, I admit. iqra khalid (mississaugaerin mills, lib.): Madam Chair, I'll be splitting my time with the member for GlengarryPrescottRussell. During a consultation with the business community in Mississauga, the concerns of businesses, big and small, included the need for stable, affordable and safe child care. With the lack of such child care spaces, an economic recovery plan post-COVID cannot be effective until and unless we make sure that people are able to get back to work. I've heard from parents across Mississauga that they're being forced to stay home because of inadequate child care and that they have to choose between putting food on the table and keeping family safe. More and more employers are realizing that good employees are unable to contribute to their business growth because of this challenge. Now more than ever, we need to find long-term sustainable solutions for Canadians who face challenges with regard to child care. I ask our Minister of Families, Children and Social Development this: What is our strategy to tackle this ever-growing need for a national child care plan? hon. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, I thank the honourable member for her question and for her important advocacy and work on this important issue. That is why we're committed to continuing to work with provinces and territories to renew our agreements on early learning and child care, and to provide, at the earliest opportunity, $400 million in support. In addition to that, the Prime Minister has already indicated that child care will be part of the $14-billion pledge to provinces and territories to assist them with respect to COVID-19 recovery efforts. Over the next decade, we will continue to invest $7.5 billion, and together we have achieved the goal of over 40,000 affordable child care spaces. We are also committed to continuing to create over 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces for kids under the age of 10. We will continue to work with our partners in the provinces and territories to ensure that Canadians can continue to have access to safe, quality and affordable child care. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): MadamChair, small businesses play a fundamental role in the Canadian economy. In an article in LaPresse, the Minister of Economic Development warned us that the economic crisis caused by severe lockdown measures could have more serious consequences in small municipalities than in large cities. Based on discussions with the chambers of commerce in my riding, it is clear that federal government assistance will be essential for the reopening of the economy, specifically for the rural economy. In fact, I would like to acknowledge the work of the Prescott-Russell community development corporation , under the leadership of John Candie. After announcing almost $57million to help SMEs adopt e-commerce, how does the minister plan to help SMEs and the business community in our rural areas? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): MadamChair, I also thank my colleague from GlengarryPrescottRussell for his important question. It is also why we have doubled the budget of CFDCs and Community Futures organizations across the country. In southern Ontario we have reinvested over $260million in the regional economic development agency FedDev. In the great riding of GlengarryPrescottRussell, which I am particularly fond of and where there is a very good member of Parliament, there is an additional $1million for entrepreneurs in the region. carol hughes): The honourable member for GlengarryPrescottRussell has 36seconds left. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): Thank you very much, Madam Chair. She has been working from home since late March, taking care of her child, who is out of school, and caring for her father, who is living with her and vulnerable to COVID-19. As a parent and a care provider to a vulnerable person, she's not comfortable with physically returning to work. Service Canada won't give Krystal a straight answer as to whether going on leave and collecting CERB would count as refusing a reasonable job offer. With Bill C-17 looming in the background, Krystal is worried about jail time and fines if she does right by her child and her father by applying for CERB. Can Krystal reasonably refuse to go back to work and collect CERB, or will she be considered a fraudster? That's my question for the minister that is specific to Krystal's case. As well, what is the minister doing to provide clear direction to Canadians and to Service Canada agents so that people can get a clear answer before making their decision about returning to work? hon. We recognize that Canadian workers will face various different situations, including those who are ineligible for the Canada emergency support benefit. We'll continue to work with workers to make sure they're able to be supported throughout this pandemic. daniel blaikie: Madam Chair, that answer is really not good enough, because the problem here is that Krystal needs to know whether she can continue receiving CERB or not. That's a federal government decision, and she needs to know whether the federal government is going to accuse her of fraud and put her in jail or assess fines against her if she refuses to go back to work because she wants to take care of her child and her father. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that if a Canadian has to take care of a loved one due to circumstances surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic, they are indeed eligible to receive the CERB and remain receiving that benefit. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): As we deal with the global pandemic, we cannot lose sight of the ongoing climate emergency. Canada has missed every single climate target it set, and we need to break the cycle of empty promises. Canadians want their government to be accountable, and environmental groups such as Ecojustice, CAN-Rac, Environmental Defence and West Coast Environmental Law, as well as the government's own climate institute, are all calling for legally binding climate targets. When will the government put its climate targets into law with legally binding milestones so we never miss another target again? hon. navdeep bains (mississaugamalton, lib.): Madam Chair, I thank my honourable colleague for her question. It is a priority not only for us as a government, but it should be a priority for all Canadians. That is why we have a comprehensive plan that also includes significant investments in clean technology, which will help reduce our carbon footprint. I am confident that these measures will enable us to not only meet but exceed our 2030 target and also allow us to achieve our net-zero 2050 target. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I think the fundamental issue here is having a plan when it comes to the environment. I'm confident that the measures that we have takenputting a price on pollution, investing in clean technology, and other key measures to reduce our carbon footprint, including the investment in infrastructureunderpin a plan the acting chair (mrs. laurel collins: This government is not meeting its targets, but it is meeting with oil and gas lobbyists. Are we going to choose a just recovery with good, sustainable jobs for Canadian workers, or are we going to keep subsidizing oil and gas companies to the tune of billions, subsidies that we know are ending up in the pockets of CEOs and shareholders? the acting chair (mrs. navdeep bains: Again, Madam Chair, this is the fundamental difference between us and the NDP. We fundamentally believe that the entire economy needs to work together, including the energy sector, to enable us to achieve those 2030 and 2050 targets. We are going to work together to support our workers, including in the energy sector, to reduce our carbon footprint. When I was last here in May, I was on my way back to Saskatoon from Toronto, and there was actually someone on my flight who tested positive for COVID-19. Why hasn't the government put rules in place requiring airlines to reach out to individuals like me who may have been exposed to COVID on their flights? hon. patty hajdu: Madam Chair, it's hard to speculate on what happened from such a vague description of his experience, but I will say that we have every confidence in local public health, which is doing the hard and heavy lifting of contact tracing and working very closely with all kinds of different sectors, including airline sectors, to make sure that close contacts of people who have tested positive for COVID-19 are found, are traced and are isolated. I assume that the member took appropriate precautions on the flight and I hope that he continues to do so. kevin waugh: Madam Chair, it was reported that the individual on my plane who had COVID was actually connecting in Toronto from an international flight. The Prime Minister announced last week that they would begin mandating temperature checks for those bound for Canada in July. Will international travellers be tested when they land in Canada, or will they be relying on the tests that take place in other countries? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, this is a very important question, because the protection and safety of all Canadiansin particular, Canadian travellersis a high priority for our government. That will initially be done primarily by the airlines that are in the best position to do it at this point in time. We are also now going to be including CATSA, the people who do the security screening, so that when people enter the airport, they will also be screened. kevin waugh: Madam Chair, last week five of the largest professional sports leagues in North America put out a statement of support for my private member's bill, the safe and regulated sports betting act. Given the struggles that clubs and leagues are facing due to COVID-19, including having no fans at all in the stands for the foreseeable future, the legalization of sports betting would be a welcome opportunity not only to engage fans but to generate much-needed revenue. Will the government commit now to supporting the sports and gaming industries by supporting my private member's bill, Bill C-218? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, I've had the opportunity on many occasions to speak to members of Parliament and also to mayors and councillors and people living in border communities where there are casinos. I would like to advise the member that I look forward to the opportunity for a careful examination of his bill. At the same time, we will examine his bill with all of the necessary attention to make sure it's given full consideration. kevin waugh: Madam Chair, it's the first time in history that we've had the five professional leagues in this country joining together for this bill. I've heard major concerns from a number of newspapers in this country about competition they're receiving today from Canada Post, which is offering massive free postage services. In fact, I have one of their ads here, which says that the first 6,000 pieces of postage are 100% free. If the government is genuine about wanting to ensure that newspapers and journals can succeed in this country, why are you allowing Canada Post to use its monopoly power to actually threaten local newspapers in this country? hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): Thank you, Madame Chair, and I thank the member opposite for his question. As you well know, a healthy news and media sector in Canada is a priority for our government, which is why we have put in place a number of measures before COVID-19 and during COVID-19, and we will continue to be there for them after this crisis has gone by. carol hughes): Before we go on, we will be taking a break to do a bit of a changeover. Blair stated yesterday here in the House that the AR-15 has been used in mass killings in Canada on many occasions. Blair, please provide just one specific instance in which an AR-15 was used in a mass killing in Canada. I think this is an excellent opportunity to point out to the member opposite how important it is to actually listen to what was said. If you go back and review that tape, and I would invite you to do so, you'll see that I said the AR-15 and other weapons like themreferring of course to military-style assault weaponshave been used in mass killings, and I actually cited a number of examples. Madam Chair, I think it would be very useful if the member's questions were based on facts. Blair that I actually have watched the video a couple of times, and he specifically states that the AR-15 was used in mass killings in Canada, yet he has yet to provide one. Out of the recently banned firearms on May 1, how many have been or are still currently in use by the Canadian Armed Forces? hon. bill blair: That's an excellent question, Madam Chair, because it's very important to provide Canadians with clarity. I asked him a question on whether any of them is being or ever has been used in the Canadian Armed Forces. Are any of the recently banned firearms still in use, or have they ever been in use, in any military in the world? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, I think it's important to also recognize that the basic origin, the provenance of the weapons that we have prohibited, was in their original design. As I've said previously, they were designed for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers. alex ruff: As someone who has used many military-style firearms and who is actually involved in helping define what we purchase in the military, I would use none of the ones that are currently prohibited. Can he please confirm whether Veterans Affairs has a plan to address the claims backlog, yes or no? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): Madam Chair, I appreciate my honourable colleague's question, and yes, we've indicated that it's a major priority. That's why I'm so pleased that the supplementary estimates contained just under $90 million to address hiring more staff, improving the process and making sure that we attack the backlog in an appropriate manner. lawrence macaulay: Well, Madam Chair, I can assure you that it's in the supplementary estimates, and of course, this money is the acting chair (mrs. lawrence macaulay: Madam Chair, I can tell my honourable colleague that the money is in the supplementary estimates, and with the money we're able to attack this problem in an appropriate manner, and that's what is important for our veterans. alex ruff: The deputy minister committed on March 10 that a written plan would be provided to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs within a month and made public. lawrence macaulay: Madame Chair, I'm sure my honourable colleague wants an appropriate plan and he would be fully aware this just under $90 million would make a big difference in the plan to attack the backlog. Therefore, my question is, if the deputy minister in the department provided him with an appropriate plan or a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is? I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan. lawrence macaulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs. carol hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. ahmed hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year. The summer camps association has given lots of feedback and my office has given lots of feedback, so I don't see what's confusing about this. However, I've become accustomed to not really getting answers to questions, so I will go to the next one. The Ontario government's regional reopening plan permits cruise boats to resume on Georgian Bay, yet the federal government is refusing to allow these vessels to operate until July 1. Therefore, small businesses such as the Island Queen cruiser in Parry Sound, which has only a very few precious weeks to operate in the first place, is losing yet another two weeks because of federal inaction. Will the Minister of Transport take a regional approach himself by lifting the federal ban on Georgian Bay, just like the Province of Ontario has done? the acting chair (mrs. There have been a number of very important discussions with the provinces, in particular with the Province of Ontario, around provisions regarding pleasure craft. We're working very closely with our provincial counterparts to address this issue, but we want to ensure that it will be done safely. scott aitchison: Madam Chair, I actually gave the minister a heads-up that I would be asking that question. He sent me an email today saying he was not going to be able to be in the House, and it's great of him to do that. He said that whoever was going to fill in for him would have an answer, but again, that was not really an answer. The next issue I would like to bring this government's attention to is the deplorable state of rural Internet service in Parry SoundMuskoka. Quite simply, there are too many gaps in service, and what is available is generally way too expensive. We have families trying to work and teach their kids from home on unreliable and outrageously expensive Internet service, and we have too many small businesses that either cannot access or afford reliable Internet services. Today Greg Rickford, the Ontario energy minister, and Laurie Scott, Ontario Minister of Infrastructure, announced $2.3 million for seven northern Ontario broadband projects. Minister, will when your government get serious and become a reliable partner for the Government of Ontario and the private sector to deliver this crucial modern-day infrastructure to rural Canadians? the acting chair (mrs. carol hughes): I remind the member that he needs to address the questions and comments to the chair. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): Madam Chair, in the best of times, life without access to high-speed Internet is hard. Our government's unprecedented investments are already connecting a million more Canadian households to this essential service, but until we achieve universal access our work is not done. We will work with our partners, including provinces across the country, to connect every Canadian household to high-quality Internet access that is affordable and reliable. I'm wondering, then, Madam Chair, since the Province of Ontario has used the Northern Ontario Heritage Corporation Fund to make this announcement, what about using FedNor to make the same kind of announcement, and partner with the province? the acting chair (mrs. mlanie joly: Obviously we believe in the importance of northern Ontario; that's why we nearly doubled the budget of FedNor. We will continue to invest in businesses and people all around Parry Sound, Muskoka and northern Ontario. If my colleague has specific projects in mind, please come and see me and let's have a conversation. carol hughes): The honourable member for Montmagny-L'Islet-KamouraskaRivire-du-Loup, Mr.Gnreux, has the floor. bernard gnreux (montmagnyl'isletkamouraskarivire-du-loup, cpc): Thank you, MadamChair. During this pandemic, we are realizing the extent to which reliable high-speed Internet service is needed for Canada's economy. There are still places where telework is not possible today because of the lack of adequate coverage. Benot Pilotto, who is the mayor of Saint-Onsime-d'Ixworth, in my riding, wrote to me a few days ago. That is why I am asking you what concrete results the government plans to achieve for our rural areas by the end of the year. maryam monsef: At the best of times, life without high-speed Internet access is difficult. bernard gnreux: MadamChair, I am simply asking the minister to tell me when the mayor of Saint-Onsime-d'Ixworth will be able to tell his residents when the Internet will be available in his municipality. What does the government plan to do so that rural municipalities across Canada can have access to the Internet as soon as possible? What is its plan? hon. maryam monsef: We are working with partners across the country to ensure that every Canadian household is connected to a high-quality, accessible and affordable high-speed Internet service. Madam Chair, I assure my colleagues that we share the same goal, and we will work with all our partners across the country to ensure every Canadian household has access the acting chair (mrs. According to the government's plan, when will rural Canadian businesses and households be connected? the acting chair (mrs. maryam monsef: Madam Chair, those plans are under way, and we will have more to share in the coming days. bernard gnreux: It seems that the Minister of Rural Economic Development plans to announce a new plan this week. Can she tell us how this program will differ from the Connect to Innovate program, which is already in place? Can the minister tell us whether her program will solve the problem of the 25square kilometre hexagonal zones, which unfortunately make many projects ineligible for the CRTC's broadband fund? hon. maryam monsef: Madam Chair, I'm pleased to share with my colleague that the model he's referring to, the hexagon model, is no more. bernard gnreux: MadamChair, this year, the Canada summer jobs program is a real fiasco. On May13, 100jobs were announced in my riding; on May20, 16jobs were announced; on May27, 13jobs were announced; on June3, 12jobs were announced; and on June10, only one job was announced. Can we have an announcement, once and for all? Let's stop the piecemeal announcements and finally confirm the remaining jobs today so that our organizations can have young people before the summer starts on the weekend. We recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program is playing in supporting employers and young workers in communities right across the country. Our government is working very hard to help employers adapt to the realities of the COVID-19 pandemic, and at the same time is supporting young Canadians as they begin to look for summer employment. We've introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that more young workers have opportunities to get employed. The honourable member also has to understand that we're in the COVID-19 pandemic, and as such it will take some time for businesses to equip themselves to hire students. Addiction is a health and social issue, but criminalization creates stigma, so people hide their drug use and die alone. Access to a safe supply of drugs and safe injection sites saves lives and puts addicts in daily contact with people who can help them. Will this government end the war on drugs by decriminalizing them, providing a safe supply and reallocating resources from policing addicts to providing treatment for them? hon. patty hajdu: Madam Chair, I think it's really important we make sure that when we speak about people who use substances, we remove stigmatizing language like the word addict. We can stand together, as this government has, with people who use substances and their families to ensure a range of options for people who are struggling with addiction, who are using substances in a way that is harming their health and their communities. Madam Chair, we're working with communities to make sure there are more community-based approaches to treating the acting chair (mrs. paul manly: Madam Chair, the Geneva Convention considers both tear gas and pepper spray to be chemical weapons and prohibits their use in war, yet our police forces use these weapons on Canadian civilians. Will the government prohibit the use of these weapons and require police to use de-escalation techniques to keep legal protests peaceful? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, the right to peaceful protest in this country is a constitutionally protected right. At the same time, Madam Chair, we recognize that the use of even less than lethal force can have significant impacts on people's safety. It's prohibited for non-police use, and for the police it is and should be highly regulated. paul manly: Madam Chair, in 2012 the RCMP spent $14 million on 18 armoured personnel carriers. Will the government rein in the RCMP budget and end wasteful spending on militarizing our civilian police forces? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, it's a very important tradition that our Canadian police are not militarized. At the same time, we've seen a number of tragedies when police have responded to situations in which people were armed with weapons designed for soldiers to kill soldiers, and they've been used to kill police officers. The militarization of our society, so strongly promoted by some, is the direct consequence of the militarization of the police. As we remove these weapons from our society and prohibit them, we'll make it safer for everyone and we can then move away from such a model of policing. paul manly: Madam Chair, the government spent $4.5 billion to buy an old, leaky pipeline. How much is this spill going to cost Canadian taxpayers to clean up? How much contingency funding has been budgeted to repair the environmental destruction from spills? hon. navdeep bains: Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable colleague for his question. He full well knows that the acquisition that we made with regard to the TMX initiative is a reflection of the fact that we want this initiative to move forward in a sustainable manner and in a manner that protects the environment. I'll continue to work with my colleagues to endeavour to make sure that we have the appropriate processes in place to protect the environment and at the same time create good-quality, middle-class jobs for Canadians. carol hughes): The honourable member for RosemontLa PetitePatrie, Mr.Boulerice, has the floor. alexandre boulerice (rosemontla petite-patrie, ndp): Thank you, MadamChair. In Montreal, the city and the police department have recognized this, and measures will be put in place. Although it spends $10million a day, we see no attempt to reform or change the RCMP. If the Prime Minister really wants to act, why is he delaying the action plan in response to the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls? hon. bill blair: Let me assure this House and the member opposite that we're not dragging our feet. Indigenous people, black Canadians and other racialized people are far too often experiencing systemic racism and disparate outcomes through the criminal justice system. It's incumbent upon all of us who work within the criminal justice system to take the steps and actions necessary to produce more equitable outcomes. All police services, including the RCMP, must be committed to ensuring that the people they're sworn to serve and protect are always treated with dignity and respect. alexandre boulerice: MadamChair, why are the Liberals taking indigenous children to court to challenge the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruling in their favour? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): Madam Chair, as the honourable member knows full well, a number of cases are pending, and we are currently negotiating with the parties. We are making progress, and I would be delighted to tell the member and the House about it in response to a later question. alexandre boulerice: We've been asking questions about it for months, and as I see it, we should keep doing so. The Prime Minister's new pipeline, which taxpayers were forced to buy with their hard-earned money, has leaked. Some 190,000litres of oil spilled, and we can't even make the company pay for it because the Liberals bought the pipeline. Trans-Mountain, KeystoneXL and the resumption of gas exploration and development off the coast of Newfoundland and Labradorare these the projects the Liberals had in mind for their green recovery? hon. Our priority was to protect the health and safety of Canadians throughout the pandemic, especially when it comes to the environment. That's why environmental and climate change laws aimed at protecting the environment, human health and conservation will remain in force. Unions, associations, artists and creators have all taken part in public demonstrations recently to condemn the lack of a specific plan for the living arts, performing arts and festival sector. alexandre boulerice: Well, that wasn't at all what the artists and creators who were out demonstrating in the streets a few days ago thought. The CERB extension announced by the government only brings us to September, but the cultural community is expecting the worst in the fall. steven guilbeault: I'm not so sure those who were protesting last week had issues with our government, but we'd certainly be happy to speak with them. As for a long-term plan, we are currently consulting arts and culture stakeholders to contemplate together how the government can help the sector in response to the ongoing crisis. We are working on finding solutions, but until we have long-term solutions, we have seen to it that our artists and organizations have access to funding until September. carol hughes): The honourable member for BeauportLimoilou, Mrs.Vignola, has the floor. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with the member for Montcalm. According to the latest news, Seaspan Shipyards will be spending an additional $1.5billion to build two ships. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): I'd like to thank the member for her question. Davie is certainly a strong and trusted partner that works very hard to help our government get results for Canadians. Building a new class of ships is highly complex, and it's not unusual for cost estimates to change throughout the procurement project. It's important to make sure additional funding is available for the joint support ships project to ensure the navy's vessels are delivered. In the beginning, eight years ago, the project was supposed to cost $2.6billion. Why haven't the ships been delivered yet? Why is Davie still not seen as a trusted partner? the acting chair (mrs. anita anand: Once again, I would point out that building a new class of ships is highly complex, and it's not unusual for the cost estimate to change for a procurement project as large as this one. carol hughes): It is now over to the honourable member for Montcalm, Mr.Thriault. luc thriault (montcalm, bq): Madam Chair, in Quebec, 12,000people have begun their training to work in residential and long-term care centres. The dedication of the members of the armed forces is paramount, and I want to extend my heartfelt thanks. What does the army have to do right now that is more important than helping our caregivers save lives? hon. pablo rodriguez: Madam Chair, I'm glad my fellow member recognizes the fundamental role the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces have played and continue to play in residential and long-term care centres and many other areas in support of our seniors. luc thriault: We are short 12,000people, so if the Red Cross wants to help us, all the better. I repeat my question: What does the army have to do 10days from now that is more important if it's not to help caregivers save lives? hon. The people at the Canadian Red Cross are well-trained paid workers who can perform the same work in partnership with the members of the armed forces, who can stay in Quebec as well. Right now, we are working with the Quebec government and discussing how we can keep the measure in place until September15. What does the army have to do that is more important than helping caregivers save the lives of those who built Quebec? the acting chair (mrs. carol hughes): The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons is asked to keep his answer brief. pablo rodriguez: Madam Chair, the Government of Canada is there and will continue to be there to help the people who built Quebec. Madam Chair, on May 14 I asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Liberal government would put aside its usual campaign rhetoric and recognize the very detrimental impact the carbon tax is having on farmers across this country. Minister Bibeau proudly noted that according to their data, the average cost of the carbon tax per farm across Canada is $210 to $819. The fact is that the Liberal government's own Parliamentary Budget Officer has estimated that at $25 per tonne, the cost for an 855-acre crop farm in Alberta is well over $6,000. When will this Liberal government come clean with Canadians and recognize the disastrous impact the carbon tax is having on Canada's critical agriculture and agri-food sector? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): Madam Chair, our pollution pricing policy is designed to grow a clean economy. Farm fuels and fuels from cardlock facilities are exempt, and there is a partial rebate for propane and natural gas used in commercial greenhouses. We will do a review of our pollution pricing system in 2020, focused on competitiveness issues in trade-exposed industries such as agriculture. It is also important to remember that this is about tackling climate change and that 100% of the revenues stay in the province. earl dreeshen: Madam Chair, Minister Bibeau keeps talking about wanting to protect Canadians' environment. Well, the truth is that Canada's farmers, ranchers and processors have for years demonstrated their ability to deliver meaningful reductions in emissions and to safeguard the environment through the adoption of new technologies, education and innovative management practices, but the government ignores these efforts. Will the minister at the very least admit to Canadians that Canadian farmers are unable to pass on the cost of the carbon tax to consumers and instead have to absorb those extra costs out of their own pockets? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Madam Chair, allow me to explain again our government's position on pollution pricing. Madam Chair, Minister Bibeau has repeatedly asked stakeholders to send her data about the impacts of the carbon tax on farmers, so this is exactly what they have been doing. The Atlantic Grains Council, the Grain Farmers of Ontario, Producteurs de grains du Qubec and the Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association issued a joint statement at the beginning of this year in which they estimated that the cumulative indirect inflation of carbon tax on farm costs will be $14.50 an acre this year, with that cost escalating by more than double by 2022 to almost $30 an acre. Why does the Liberal government continue to ignore the facts presented to it and continue to misrepresent the truth to Canadians? hon. marie-claude bibeau: Madame Chair, I can assure you that we have paid close attention to all the information that has been provided to us and that our calculation was also based on this information provided by provinces and different stakeholders. Marie-Claude Bibeau:as well as the 2019 agricultural tax data to estimate the average cost of pollution pricing associated with grain drying at up to 0.4% of overall operating costs. Dreeshen, I am watching the time, and the minister is allowed to answer for the same amount of time that you used to ask the question<doc-sep>lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? darren millar am: Yes, I have a declaration of interest, Chair. I understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry. And, in addition, I'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video. So, item 2, then, today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils, which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers. The committee team has been out to take video evidence around Wales, and we're now going to watch the results of that on the screen. Well, I'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video. We'll move on now then to our evidence session, and I'm very pleased to welcome Gareth Pierce, chief executive of the WJEC, Mike Ebbsworth, assistant director educational support, WJEC, Philip Blaker, chief executive of Qualifications Wales, and Emyr George, associate director general qualifications at Qualifications Wales. So, thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions now, and if I can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in Wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and Welsh Government is. philip blaker: Shall I start? So, Qualifications Wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies, so we regulate awarding bodies. In regulating the awarding body, our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment. That said, when we are going through the design of the qualifications, we go through an approval process, so we develop approval criteria and we ask WJEC to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well. So, our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able, through the sample assessment materials and the specifications, to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations. So, that's setting out the knowledge, skills and understandings that will be assessed by WJEC when those exams are sat. So, during the last round of approvals, we pulled together interested parties in Welsh Government, regional consortia and WJEC to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources. Our other primary role is in maintaining standards. So, as the regulator of qualifications, what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so, the grades that people get—are fair. One of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so, the awarding process, the methods that will be used—and then we monitor WJEC's award of grades against those processes. During a period of change, we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach, largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this, where there's a change in a specification particularly, because there are any number of reasons, including resources, why performance may be different from one year to the next, but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that, all things being equal, if the cohorts have the same ability, the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next. Much of that has been related to the timelines that we've all had to deliver new specifications against, which have been far from ideal for everybody involved. We think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation isn't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness. In terms of the roles of others, Welsh Government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into Welsh medium. And there is, through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between England and Wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks. Now, that's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also, potentially, around a paradigm shift in what's expected of those materials. The WJEC does provide what's required in a regulatory sense, and there are two things there—the specification, which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching, and also exemplar assessments, which include marking, and those go to the regulator before they are published. The WJEC also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously. Each new course has substantial teaching guidance, which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils. And we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new, and then annually there is some charge for those events. Indeed, the regulations as they stand in Wales, Northern Ireland and England preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks, but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications. So, that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for Wales as we move forward, whether it would be possible—. As we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in Wales for GCSE and A-levels, in passing, that is something that I would want to suggest may deserve review. At the moment, these tend to be England-based—Hodder Education and Illuminate Education, for example—and then the Welsh Government does provide funding to the WJEC to support the process of providing Welsh-language versions for those textbooks. So, we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process, and also to pay for translation costs, and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology. We have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the WJEC, and we work closely with external translators too, and we use translation technology increasingly, which facilitates a great many things. Beyond that, I think the WJEC does see the need for flexibility, particularly when difficulties arise, and you heard there of some of the methods used by Mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions. And I should also note perhaps that, as the WJEC is very much involved with stakeholders, we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future. What is your view on that as a good use of teachers' time in Wales? gareth pierce: I think the question of translation is an interesting one. I think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because, as I mentioned earlier, there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time. Perhaps an interesting question is: is that source useful for teachers, being able to draw resources from two sources? Another interesting question, I think, is—. The Welsh language, of course, is a language that is used in an educational context, but we are in a big world that's an English language world. I'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies, as was mentioned in that video—they are available in English only. Therefore, I think another interesting question is: can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating? And, certainly, it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen Welsh-medium schools, for example, translating material from the same website independently of each other. If there are a few websites, or a few case studies, in this big external digital world that are worth translating, shouldn't we able to source those early? Because I don't think it's a good use of teachers' time. What is the vision in terms of teaching in a Welsh-medium class, in particular, perhaps, in the A-level classes? I'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages, as well as explaining those terms in their own language. But the impression I got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening, and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context. llyr gruffydd am: Just to pick up on your point on the additional materials, whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview, and then to respond to the demand? gareth pierce: Mike, in the WJEC, has conversations about resources in the team he's part of. That is extremely important—to identify, as Gareth has just said, those materials that need to be translated, and not everything needs to. We've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia, and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention. llyr gruffydd am: But would you—? The question I'm asking is: would you still see that as a core part of your work, although it's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you're required to provide? gareth pierce: Yes, we invest substantially from the WJEC budget into digital resources. So, through the types of conversations that Mike mentioned, in terms of identifying needs, deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas, that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation. llyr gruffydd am: And do we need further resources for that? gareth pierce: Well, it's an interesting question. The WJEC is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: Why isn't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen, then? gareth pierce: One can always do more, of course. The WJEC is trying to use its budget prudently, and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments. So, we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that Mike is undertaking. mike ebbsworth: There is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs, and that those are suited towards the requirements. Quite often a teacher—and I've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything. There has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years, and we've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment. lynne neagle am: Did you want to come in on any of this? philip blaker: I'm just going to say one thing. Teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources, and, in doing that, they'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language. I think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually, and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt. And what I wouldn't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse, different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative, which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate. But I think it is reasonable to expect for that core, common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default, and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that. The £500,000 funding for Welsh-medium educational resource that's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that's going to be spent? gareth pierce: Tthe WJEC has some information in terms of that budget. It is a Welsh Government budget, and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers, and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred. Now, there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources, and also, although this would be a very small part, a contribution towards seminars for publishers. But that isn't a full picture of the £500,000; I think you would have to ask the Welsh Government about the exact allocation of that total fund. We've just started this financial year; I'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource. We have contributed a list of publications, for example, that are ongoing, and they're aware of that, and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of Welsh. darren millar am: This is a huge mess, isn't it? It's a huge mess, which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers, lots of pressure and extra work for learners, and is affecting the well-being of students, at a time when they need to be mentally fit, in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up. We know that the problems are not confined to Welsh-medium resources; they're also being experienced in English language resources as well, particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks. You've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers, and I would agree with you on that front. But isn't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn, and swot up on, in advance of exams? gareth pierce: I think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently. But I think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them; perhaps the teacher uses them. There is an emphasis, for example, from one pupil there, on that traditional model of revision, namely class notes and his own revision notes, but that he personally also wanted a textbook. So, certainly, the content of a textbook is going to be important, and that that's available in some form or other. It was very interesting to know, for example, that when he was describing the traditional model of revision, he felt that he'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes. Much of that digital content, of course, corresponds to the content areas of a textbook, but it's just in a different form. And some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers don't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time. That doesn't happen so often in English medium, but we know about that gap in time in the Welsh provision. darren millar am: Well, it's happened fairly regularly in the English-medium textbook world, hasn't it? My daughter—she featured in that video—has got her RS qualifications coming up, and she only had a textbook over the Easter period. You mentioned digital resources; not everybody's got access to digital resources in their own homes, even, in Wales. So, aren't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook' method of revision and benefit from that? mike ebbsworth: We do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print. Most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use, to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time. If there are activities, then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home. gareth pierce: I think you're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture. The young people talk about websites and blogs, and we're talking about digital resources, so being able to reach those resources, I think, is vital in Wales. It's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters. One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work, while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable. Of course, the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that, in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables, we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later, but available digitally at an early stage. But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital, and access to that, and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well. darren millar am: Mr Blaker, you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification. philip blaker: I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest. darren millar am: So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students. darren millar am: But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort? philip blaker: The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination. darren millar am: I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important. gareth pierce: I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. darren millar am: I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly? gareth pierce: I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018. darren millar am: So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work? gareth pierce: Yes. philip blaker: I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by. gareth pierce: Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody. llyr gruffydd am: Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve? gareth pierce: That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work. lynne neagle am: Did you want to come in, Philip? philip blaker: I think one of the big differences is it's a tsunami we can see coming. So, young people will be assessed for the first time, assuming linear exams, in the summer 2027, which is some way away, and, actually, given the reform process historically, this is probably the most foresight we've seen of a big change like this. There is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum, because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum, so we do need to see something coming out of that. I think, for us, once we've seen the curriculum, and we've got better sight of it, we'll be able to plan things out. We've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications, and, ultimately, there'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made, probably in 2023, which would be that if the conditions don't appear right for safe implementation, then we would make a recommendation to Welsh Government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification, not in terms of the curriculum, for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up. So, we're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process, but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions. gareth pierce: Just one very brief comment in that context: I think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there. They emphasise, in the context of the curriculum, the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing, therefore I think we truly need to discuss that. Does that suggest that there won't be so much need for national resources, or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case? We need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail, I think. llyr gruffydd am: Yes, certainly, and one is concerned that that conversation isn't already happening, but, yes, okay, you've made that point clearly. If I could return, therefore, to the commercial issue—clearly, there is a shortage of providers in Wales, and we are reliant on others. You suggested that the WJEC may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed. I assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context. I think that I haven't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest: the interest is there, but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable, what the implications are of working in two languages, what kind of business model, perhaps, would be suitable for the publishers in Wales, how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work, because they would want to build their teams, and develop skills within those teams, and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing. And therefore, those are the sort of issues that we're starting a discussion on, in the hope of having a discussion in June to move that forward. Of course, Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion, not only WJEC, but we've been part of initiating that discussion. llyr gruffydd am: Is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing? gareth pierce: Yes, I think, and there is some enthusiasm. For example, a number of publishers in Wales are within an association describing itself as Cwlwm Cyhoeddwyr Cymru. Myrddin ap Dafydd is chair of Cwlwm at the moment, and there is enthusiasm and vision, certainly. So, there's a wonderful opportunity, I think, for Wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them. llyr gruffydd am: And we're talking here not just about translating but developing resources, and the point, I think, is an important one around some of the evidence that we've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning, rather than having to translate something. Because there have been comments that translations are clunky, difficult to follow and not—I'm not saying that they're not fit for purpose, but certainly don't facilitate teaching, perhaps, as easily as one would wish. gareth pierce: Yes, I would agee, and that begins with the authors, doesn't it? We must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: So, the expertise, and the same capacty with the publishers as well. gareth pierce: Yes, and we do want to nurture authors within Wales, particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a Welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects. So, we need authors who can be developed, and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers. llyr gruffydd am: Would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy, if it were to develop bilingually? Or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy? gareth pierce: Our view in the WJEC is that subsidy will be necessary. Why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the Welsh curriculum? And perhaps we would need a little more funding for that. But there will be organisations such as the WJEC who will still be interested in contributing, because we are a charity, and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in Wales. llyr gruffydd am: But in terms of where we are now, resources have to be translated. But also, how long is acceptable to wait for a translation, in your view? mike ebbsworth: We've done a great deal of work recently, over recent years, to ensure that that delay between having an English version and a Welsh version is reduced. We are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the Welsh and the English are available simultaneously. In those terms, we've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we've named this morning, so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced. The nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind, or edit as he or she is writing. Well, with that model, we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward, chapter by chapter perhaps, so that there would be no changes to be made from then on. At the end of the process, then, the publishers in England have agreed to hold the English version back for a period of time until the Welsh version is available, and then to publish both simultaneously. Unless that timetable is followed throughout the process, there are inherent risks in that process, of course, as I've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials, and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to. gareth pierce: And perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package, and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing, how the Welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that aren't text necessarily—pictures and so forth. So, eight weeks, I think, is the time that we've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the Welsh version in that period of time. So, you’re telling us, Mr Ebbsworth, that the WJEC has agreed with Hodder and Illuminate that, in future, even if an English textbook is available for publication, and it’s already late, you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the Welsh-medium textbook? mike ebbsworth: We can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed. Naturally, if something is late in English, then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken. But that's the hope: that when new textbooks are produced in English and authored in English, we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround. darren millar am: I understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach, which seems much more equitable. But to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you haven't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day, seems to be wholly inappropriate. Can I ask, also, why on earth it isn't possible to produce Welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to English on occasions? mike ebbsworth: We're entirely open to that and to that sort of model. darren millar am: So, why has that never ever been done? gareth pierce: Well, of course, it would happen with subjects that stem from Wales, but I think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors, therefore, tend to work through the medium of English. But, just to be clear, this idea of delaying an English version is something that the Welsh Government is eager for us to experiment with, but not with textbooks that are already late. They are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000. So, in a way, this is an experiment and the Welsh Government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available. darren millar am: So, you're being forced to do this by the Welsh Government, rather than— gareth pierce: Well, we've agreed to do it in discussion with them. darren millar am: So, are you happy with that approach? gareth pierce: Well, as long as the textbook isn't late in the first place, then yes; it's worth trying. There is a challenge on the eight weeks, there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the English version first of all, but we are willing to use this as a test bed, and we're working on two specific textbooks on this. lynne neagle am: I think the committee is struggling with this idea, so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that, then? Is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged? gareth pierce: Well, no, in a way, it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources. With the digital materials, the intention is that things are available in time and that they're available in both languages at the same time. So, trying to imitate that with printed text is what we're trying to do, but not with texts that are already late. So, if these books keep to the timetable, then they will be available in time in both languages, but that the English version has stayed before going out on the shelves. llyr gruffydd am: So, that's to say that the English version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation. mike ebbsworth: Well, ultimately, I may have used the wrong words in saying that we're holding the English back. The English version would still be in the process, just as the Welsh version would be, and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing. There is an element of editing the English as well as the Welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period. So, a draft form might be available, and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible, but then that has to be held up before publication. john griffiths am: Just on that, Chair, it's nonetheless the case, as we've heard, I think, and as the letter to the committee from Kirsty Williams has made clear, that there might be a situation where the English-language version of a textbook could be made available, but it isn't made available because there isn't a Welsh-language version. And, as the Chair said, is that about putting those students in Wales on the same footing, and if so, how does that relate to the fact that these students, including those who could have had earlier access to the English-language version, are competing with students over the border, as we heard on the video earlier, for those precious university places? Doesn't it place the English-language student using the English-language version at a potential disadvantage, compared to students over the border? gareth pierce: I think this is a point for Qualifications Wales to a certain extent, but applicants for qualifications in Wales are assessed as a national cohort, if truth be told, so, each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort. So, in discussion with Qualifications Wales, we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in Wales in any subject, be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason. philip blaker: Certainly, from a comparable outcomes perspective, the fewer differences that there are that are differential—. So, the idea of textbooks being available in English and Welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity. So, if we're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective, it makes the awarding easier if everybody's on a common playing field. It's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned. This subject has already been awarded at AS-level last year, so it has gone through an award and will go through the full A-level award this year. The comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year, in the absence of a textbook, and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level. Similarly, with other subjects that have gone through reforms, we've seen it with the GCSEs that were awarded last year, ASs that were awarded last year and A-levels that were awarded last year: we saw good comparability year on year. Is that okay, John? darren millar am: Just a very brief follow-up on that, at the cohort level, yes, you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected, but what you don't know and can't tell, because you're not able to drill down to the individual student level, is whether children, young people, were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers. philip blaker: I guess we're in a situation where there's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: The absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen. darren millar am: Well, I think you've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it's causing, and the concern that learners have about their outcomes. I think it would be very interesting, actually, to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes. Is that something that Qualifications Wales could do on a sample basis? philip blaker: Historically, that sort of evidence has been very unreliable. Certainly, back in my day at an awarding body they were provided, and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade. gareth pierce: No, we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable, because there are so many factors. But I think, at the end of the day, what we see is, yes, I agree there is evidence of stress, but I think there's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation, and tending to do that very well. That's the evidence that we've got, for example, in the AS religious studies last year, that the cohort did extremely well in fact. We can't disagree that there's evidence of stress, but I think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they've got: classroom notes, revision notes, as they mentioned, and the various other materials that they referred to. john griffiths am: Coming back to the effect of the lack of resources, we heard on the video, as you've just mentioned, Gareth, that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety, and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources, as we discussed. We know exam time is very, very stressful—I'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general, without any additional problems or perceptions of problems. So, with that sort of background, would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications? I know we've discussed this in terms of it being difficult, perhaps, to show cause and effect, but I think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted. There is evidence of their concern, isn't there? But as Philip said, what we don't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment, because there are so many factors, there are so many different kinds of resources that they've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks, they're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them. Of course, it's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard, so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned, yes, and as you've said, examinations are a stressful time in general, but they are also young people who are doing their level best, and usually do get the results that they have worked for. Coming back again to matters that we've already discussed, but just to put to you in a fairly focused way, would you accept that it isn't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having, depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they're studying through? Would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists? gareth pierce: Ideally, resources, digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis. But I think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail, different individuals would be able to say, 'There are different types of unfairness.' You referred earlier to the digital inequalities. Is there an economic inequality? There is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available. So, I think your question drives at a very important point: what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time? Ideally, each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled. So, I don't think I can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair, but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one, and therefore we're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own. john griffiths am: Could I put to you, finally then, what Estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks, marking criteria and specimen papers, that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately, and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils' achievement? Would you accept that? gareth pierce: It's interesting—they link three quite different things there, don't they? We've discussed the textbooks in some detail. When they refer to sample assessments, we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame, and they have to be approved. So, in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes, and they are statutorily available, in a way. One request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us. Of course, they're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time. But in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination, is marked by us, and is then made available. I would like to have a conversation with Estyn, indeed, to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to. emyr george: May I offer a comment on that quote from Estyn? They talk about a reduction in attainment and that, to some extent, brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we're talking about. That method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification, we know that performance in an exam can fall, and that is due to a number of different factors. Certainly, knowing that you're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination, and examinations are a matter of concern already. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate between those factors, but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils' performance in an exam, and that's why, when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades, we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can, on the level of the whole national cohort, to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam. gareth pierce: Could I just make a brief comment on the sample assessments? Now, interestingly, when the English, Welsh, maths, and maths and numeracy GCSEs were new, the Welsh Government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials. We had to produce one for the regulator, but they wanted to see us produce far more, and we did that. If we create more and more sample assessments, then does that create more risk of teaching to the test? And every time we produce one of these, of course, we are using robust assessment ideas, and they're out there to be used for test purposes. So, we need to be careful that we don't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners' good ideas in the sample material. So, it's an interesting theme, but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with Estyn on that. I think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms, particularly knowing that we've got some on the radar already, and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future. So, if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource, rather than a qualification resource, I think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced. So, going back to when I studied my A-levels in the 1980s, there was this common body of knowledge that was an A-level textbook in biology that wasn't focused around an individual awarding body. When we talked to unions about this on Monday, they said, 'Yes, when we used to teach many years ago, there were curriculum resources like that, and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification, we either did or didn't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum'. That's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that didn't get taught because it was no longer in the text, despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge. But I think if we can shift this paradigm—and I would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly, away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for, I would suggest, a much healthier model in the future. In the United States, for example, there are some states within the United States that produce a state textbook. Now, that can have issues, particularly if it's politically orientated—so, if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that's taught. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, they've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks. So, Hong Kong, which is a very high-performing jurisdiction, is trying to move away from that model in the future. gareth pierce: Could I just add very, very briefly— lynne neagle am: Very briefly, because I want to bring Hefin in. gareth pierce: I know that, in our letter to you, we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge. The assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation. So, therefore, we really do need resources that support that way of working, and I'm sure that lots of the young people we've heard from—what they're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content, but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively. In fact, an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator, maybe, is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall. Do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions, sometimes in both languages if they've learnt it in that way? Shouldn't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena? And then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation. hefin david am: I want to welcome these particular comments, because having come from a higher education background, what I've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules, where you're relying on academic journal articles and you're piecing together the story yourself, based on the curriculum you develop yourself. I fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet, when they go to university, they are not expected to repeat what's in the textbook; they're expected to do exactly as Gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument. So, therefore, I'm interested to know how you've worked with higher education to develop that approach. lynne neagle am: Can I ask for brief answers, please? gareth pierce: Yes, well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to HE and therefore what their learners want or, in some cases, they are HE people themselves. We do draw on a body of expertise, and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide. hefin david am: I think the difficulty and the difference is that, at HE level, the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at GCSE level. And I think, interestingly—I know we've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—I think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious. They would be described as scholarly, and I think some of the young people on the video made that point, didn't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes? But we need to assist them in doing so. We need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning. We recently published a report on the Welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate, and I think it's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education. Through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate, there's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills, particularly at the advanced level bacc, to make people really HE-ready so that they're better able to engage with that different style of learning. So, I think there's a huge opportunity that shouldn't be diminished within the advanced Welsh bacc. mark reckless am: Gareth, can I just put to you—? On the Estyn criticism, I think you've answered one aspect of their criticism that WJEC did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process, and I understand your position there, but they went on and said, 'At times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes' and also, 'It would be helpful if the WJEC ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification.' Do you have a response to those points? gareth pierce: Again, probably, I'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes, because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through Philip's team as well or his Welsh Government predecessors as regulators, depending on which qualifications they were. Very occasionally, somebody will identify an error, and obviously we then correct them, because these are available digitally online. So, if there is a problem, we want to hear about it and then we can correct it. But, yes, I agree with their fundamental premise, that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts, including, as we mentioned earlier, so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as WJEC free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching. We need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year. mark reckless am: So, what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from Estyn and having that conversation with them? Has that not happened? gareth pierce: We have met with Estyn a couple of times recently, actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit, and also when they were planning a review of some of the A-level work. Because we do have regular meetings with them, we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here I'm sure. mark reckless am: Looking at the structure and the relationship between Qualifications Wales and the WJEC—. I understand in the model in England—you've got Ofqual, the regulator, and you have various competing exam boards, some I think with for-profit motivation. We don't have that in Wales; there is a sole regulator and a single, dominant examination board. Does that mean that there's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies, particularly given WJEC is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in Qualifications Wales have? philip blaker: The roles are very distinct, so I'd tell you there's no overlap. What we try and do is try and make sure that there's a good connection between the work that we do. I would say a strength of the Welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely, because much of the work that Ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies doesn't lead to what's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards. Now, the opportunity that we have in Wales is, where we have a single awarding body, we can have a close and good working relationship with WJEC, but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at WJEC as one of our regulated bodies. gareth pierce: Can I make a general point? Perhaps the important opportunity in Wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations, such as the consortia, can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and CPD that will be required to support the new curriculum, and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed. The Learned Society of Wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the Welsh dimension of the curriculum. There will be a need for some financial resource from the Welsh Government—yes, certainly—and the WJEC can provide some resources, but I think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources. mark reckless am: But doesn't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that Philip was talking about earlier, where we had textbooks based on the curriculum, and there's that core, but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook wasn't there for the particular exam approach? If you have a single, dominant exam board, and you have a Welsh curriculum that's developed with that board, how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam? philip blaker: So, if we look at qualification, a qualification should be based on the curriculum that's being offered, because learning should be based around the curriculum, and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge, skills and understanding, the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop. Now, of course, what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed, there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for. I think what we're trying to say is, from an educational perspective, what we'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive, so that, if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge, skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create, they should succeed in the qualification. mark reckless am: And you suggested earlier that, if need be, the qualification could be pushed back a year, but not the curriculum. Does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification? philip blaker: It would be possible. mark reckless am: But satisfactory? philip blaker: Because, if we're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16, what Professor Donaldson said at the very beginning, with 'Successful Futures', was, actually, if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage, so that they're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment—. Ideally, you'd be in a position where you've got GCSEs that have been reformed to marry up to any change, but I don't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do. We would much rather be in a position of having reforms, but, equally, I'd want to see any reforms delivered safely, and I wouldn't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline. But I think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and I think as we get further into this we'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what's the right thing to do. darren millar am: Just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum—. So, who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources? philip blaker: I think, for a new model, that needs to be determined. They have responsibility for curriclum and they've already started work with the seminar last year, and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future. I think we need to evolve that approach, and I think Welsh Government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment. darren millar am: Are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere? philip blaker: Yes, there are models where you can have—. For example, in Northern Ireland, you have the regulator, the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof. So, you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in Northern Ireland with the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component. But, of course, in Wales, and also previously in England, the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum. I mentioned earlier that, in the past, the WJEC has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages. Certainly, key stage 3 is closely linked to GCSE, and, therefore, if the WJEC continues to be a player—as I hope it will—in the area of resources for GCSE and A-level, then the WJEC is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing, translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages. So, I'm sure that the WJEC would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area. Well, we're out of time, so can I thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions? I think it's been a very useful and informative session. In view of the time, can I ask whether Members are happy to note all those papers in a block? Can I just flag that I would like to return to paper to note 3, which is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on minority ethnic, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller learners, when we go into private, if that's okay with Members? Item 5, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.

The Welsh Government, particularly Kirsty Williams AM, expressed their strong support for WISERD (Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods), emphasizing the need for further research in Welsh education. They believed that empowering teachers to be flexible in their teaching would lead to more engaging and relevant lessons for students. Gareth Pierce acknowledged the existence of different types of unfairness but found it difficult to determine the specific inequalities impacting young people's achievements. Christine Normandin raised concerns about the conditions attached to federal funding and questioned whether the money would be sent unconditionally. John Williamson criticized Service Canada for their insufficient efforts in helping people adjust to the post-pandemic situation and revive the national economy. Mona Fortier defended the government's support funds but acknowledged the public's desire for transparent and accurate statistics on financial assistance. Bergeron called for closer cooperation between the Canadian government and Quebec to ensure regional development and stability during the pandemic, particularly in terms of unconditional transfers for the healthcare system. The government was pressured to reconsider their collaboration with the armed forces in CHSLDs and their support for Quebeckers.

Summarize the government's valuation of different sectors, Gareth Pierce's perspective on digital inequalities as a form of unfairness, Christine Normandin's opinion on federal support for the provinces, and the inquiries regarding Service Canada's cooperation with Quebec. Additionally, explain John Williamson's disagreement with the government's inquiries towards Service Canada and Bergeron's view on the cooperation between the two levels of government in relation to the inquiries towards Service Canada and their cooperation with Quebec.

grad f: I 'm What ? Really ? Oh , that 's horrible ! Disincentive ! grad a: OK , we 're recording . So , So basically the result of m much thinking since the last time we met , but not as much writing , is a sheet that I have a lot of , like , thoughts and justification of comments on but I 'll just pass out as is right now . And so one on one side is on one side is a sort of the revised sort of updated semantic specification . grad e: This is just one sheet , right ? grad d: Ah ! Just one sheet . And in some ways it 's it 's it 's very similar to There are very few changes in some ways from what we 've , b done before but I don't think everyone here has seen all of this . , as usual the disclaimers are there are all these things are it 's only slightly more stable than it was before . grad f: And , after a little bit more discussion and especially like Keith and I I have more linguistic things to settle in the next few days , it 'll probably change again some more . grad f: maybe I will let 's start b let 's start on number two actually on the notation , because that 's , I 'm thinking , possibly a little more familiar to , to people . OK , so the top block is just sort of a sort of abstract nota it 's sort of like , listings of the kinds of things that we can have . grad f: So something like , Well , there 's an example the textual example at the end has clausal construction . So , just to show it doesn't have to be beautiful It could be , you know , simple old text as well . professor c: So so the current syntax is if it s if there 's a type it 's before construct grad f: Yeah , right . And as usual I guess all the constructions her all the examples here have only , tsk one type of constituent , that is a constructional constituent . But in general instead of the word " construct " , th here you might have " meaning " or " form " as well . OK ? So if there 's some element that doesn't that isn't yet constructional in the sense that it maps form and meaning . OK , the main change with the constructs which each of which has , the key word " construct " and then some name , and then some type specification , is that it 's it 's pro it 's often sometimes the case in the first case here that you know what kind of construction it is . So for example whatever I have here is gonna be a form of the word " throw " , or it 's gonna be a form of the word , you know , I don't know , " happy " , or something like that . Or , you know , some it 'll be a specific word or maybe you 'll have the type . You 'll say " I need a p spatial relation phrase here " or " I need a directional specifier here " . So a very common example of this is that , you know , in directed motion , the first person to do something should be an agent of some kind , often a human . Right ? So if I you know , the , run down the street then I I I run down the street , it 's typed , " I " , meaning category is what 's there . The the new kind is this one that is sort of a pair and , sort of skipping fonts and whatever . The idea is that sometimes there are , general constructions that you know , that you 're going to need . It 's it 's the equivalent of a noun phrase or a prepositional phrase , or something like that there . grad f: And then , you might know something much more specific depending on what construction you 're talking about , about what meaning what specific meaning you want . So the example again at the bottom , which is directed motion , you might need a nominal expression to take the place of , you know , " the big th " , you you know , " the big the tall dark man " , you know , " walked into the room " . grad f: But because of the nature of this particular construction you know not just that it 's nominal of some kind but in particular , that it 's some kind of animate nominal , and which will apply just as well to like , you know , a per you know , a simple proper noun or to some complicated expression . , so I don't know if the syntax will hold but something that gives you a way to do both constructional and meaning types . None of these examples have anything different for formal constraints ? But you can refer to any of the , sort of available elements and scope , right ? which here are the constructs , to say something about the relation . And I think i if you not if you compare like the top block and the textual block , we dropped like the little F subscript . So so by saying if I just said " Name one " then that means name one formal and we 're talking about formal struc Which which makes sense . , there are certain times when we 'll have an exception to that , in which case you could just indicate " here the meaningful for some reason " . Right ? Or Actually it 's more often that , only to handle this one special case of , you know , " George and Jerry walk into the room in that order " . grad f: So we have a few funny things where something in the meaning might refer to something in the form . But but s we 're not gonna really worry about that for right now and there are way We can be more specific if we have to later on . OK , and so in terms of the the relations , you know , as usual they 're before and ends . I should have put an example in of something that isn't an interval relation but in form you might also have a value binding . You know , you could say that , you know , " name - one dot " , t you know , " number equals " , you know , a plural or something like that . grad f: There are certain things that are attribute - value , similar to the bindings below but they 're just us usually they 're going to be value value fillers , right ? OK , and then again semantic constraints here are just are just bindings . And Johno and I I you you and I can like fight about that if you like ? but about changing it to " semantic n effects " , which I thought was a little bit too order - biased grad b: Well Th grad f: and " semantic bindings " , which I thought might be too restrictive in case we don't have only bindings . And so it was an issue whether constraints , there were some linguists who reacted against " constraints " , saying , " oh , if it 's not used for matching , then it shouldn't be called a constraint " . But I think we want to be uncommitted about whether it 's used for matching or not . Right ? Cuz there are I think we thought of some situations where it would be useful to use whatever the c bindings are , for actual , you know , sort of like modified constraining purposes . professor c: Well , you definitely want to de - couple the formalism from the parsing strategy . So that whether or not it 's used for matching or only for verification , I grad e: Yeah . professor c: but we don't want to grad f: Yeah , there was one time when when Hans explained why " constraints " was a misleading word for him . grad f: And I think the reason that he gave was similar to the reason why Johno thought it was a misleading term , which was just an interesting coincidence . , but , And so I was like , " OK , well both of you don't like it ? professor c: It 's g it 's gone . grad b: But grad f: So that that 's why That 's why I 'll stick with it . grad a: Well , you know what ? grad f: So grad a: If you have an " if - then " phrase , do you know what the " then " phrase is called ? professor c: Th grad f: What ? Con - , a consequent ? grad a: Yeah . Anyway , so the other the other strategy you guys could consider is when you don't know what word to put , you could put no word , grad f: grad b: So that 's why you put semantic constraints up top and meaning bindings down down here ? grad f: Oh , oops ! No . grad b: So this should be semantic and grad f: Sometimes I 'm intentionally inconsistent grad b: grad f: cuz I 'm not sure yet . grad b: Th - so this definitely should be " semantic constraints " down at the bottom ? grad e: Sure . grad f: Well , unless I go with " meaning " but i , I kind of like " meaning " better than " semantic " grad b: Or professor c: Oh , whatever . grad f: but I think there 's vestiges of other people 's biases . grad f: OK , so I think the middle block doesn't really give you any more information , ex than the top block . And the bottom block similarly only just illus you know , all it does is illustrate that you can drop the subscripts and and that you can drop the , that you can give dual types . grad f: So basically now , this is actually this little change actually goes along with a big linguistic change , which is that " designates " isn't only something for the semantics to worry about now . grad f: So we want s " designates " to actually know one of the constituents which acts like a head in some respects but is sort of , really important for say composition later on . So for instance , if some other construction says , you know , " are you of type is this part of type whatever " , the " designates " tells you which sort of part is the meaning part . OK , so if you have like " the big red ball " , you know , you wanna know if there 's an object or a noun . grad f: there is a slight complication here which is that when we talk about form it 's useful sometimes to talk about , to talk about there also being a designated object and we think that that 'll be the same one , right ? So the ball is the head of the phrase , " the r the " , " big red ball " , and the entity denoted by the word " ball " is sort of the semantic head in some ways of of this sort of , in interesting larger element . And there 's there 's ca some cases where the grammar depends on some form property of the head . grad f: And , you might be able to say things like if the head has to go last in a head - final language , you can refer to the head as a p the , you know the formal head as opposed to the rest of the form having to be at the end of that decision . grad f: So that 's a useful thing so that you can get some internal structural constraints in . Were you finished ? grad f: there was a list of things that isn't included but you you can you can ask a question . So , i if I understand this the aside from , construed and all that sort of stuff , the the differences are mainly that , we 've gone to the possibility of having form - meaning pairs for a type grad f: professor c: if we go back far enough grad f: Well , except for their construction meaning , so it 's not clear that , Well , right now it 's a c contr construction type and meaning type . A well , and a previous , you know , version of the notation certainly allowed you to single out the meaning bit by it . I don't think that it was often used to give an extra meaning const type constraint on the meaning , which is really what we want most of the time I think . grad f: I I don't know if we 'll ever have a case where we actually h if there is a form category constraint , you could imagine having a triple there that says , you know that 's kind of weird . grad e: I professor c: In fact , these are , as long as as Mark isn't around , these are form constraints . The fact that it 's n , a nominal expression I would say on most people 's notion of of f you know , higher form types , this i this is one . grad e: It 's that now , I 'm mentioned this , I I don't know if I ever explained this but the point of , I mentioned in the last meeting , the point of having something called " nominal expression " is , because it seems like having the verb subcategorize for , you know , like say taking as its object just some expression which , designates an object or designates a thing , or whatever , that leads to some syntactic problems basically ? So you wanna , you know you sort of have this problem like " OK , well , I 'll put the word " , let 's say , the word " dog " , you know . And then we have a construction that says , oh , you can have " the " preceding a noun . And so you 'd have this sort of problem that the verb has to meet the designatum . grad e: And you could get , you know , " the kicked dog " or something like that , meaning " kicked the dog " . grad e: so you kind of have to let this phrase idea in there professor c: That I I have no problem with it at all . Right , n s you may be you may not be like everyone else in in Berkeley , grad e: Yeah . grad e: we we we sort of thought we were getting away with , with , a p grad f: we don't mind either , so grad e: this is not reverting to the X - bar theory of of phrase structure . grad e: I just know that this is Like , we didn't originally have in mind that , that verbs would subcategorize for a particular sort of form . grad f: Well , there 's an alternative to this grad e: At least in English . grad f: which is , The question was did we want directed motion , professor c: Yeah . grad f: did we want it to worry about , anything more than the fact that it , you know , has semantic You know , it 's sort of frame - based construction . So one option that , you know , Keith had mentioned also was like , well if you have more abstract constructions such as subject , predicate , basically things like grammatical relations , grad e: grad f: those could intersect with these in such a way that subject , predicate , or subject , predicate , subject , verb , ob you know , verb object would require that those things that f fill a subject and object are NOM expressions . But it y y it 's yeah , just moving it moving the c the cons the constraints around . professor c: OK , so that 's grad f: But there does basically , the point is there has to be that constraint somewhere , right ? professor c: Right . professor c: And so that was the grad f: Robert 's not happy now ? grad a: No ! grad f: Oh , OK . professor c: OK , and sort of going with that is that the designatum also now is a pair . grad f: Yeah , the un sort of the un - addressed questions in this , definitely would for instance be semantic constraints we talked about . grad f: Here are just bindings but , right ? we might want to introduce mental spaces You know , there 's all these things that we don't professor c: The whole the mental space thing is clearly not here . grad f: Right ? So there 's going to be some extra you know , definitely other notation we 'll need for that which we skip for now . professor c: By the way , I do want to get on that as soon as Robert gets back . professor c: obviously , construal is a b is a b is a big component of that grad e: But sort of as soon as he gets back I think , we ought to grad f: grad e: So what 's the what 's the time frame ? I forgot again when you 're going away for how long ? grad a: Just , as a sort of a mental bridge , I 'm not I 'm skipping fourth of July . grad f: What ? You 're missing like the premier American holiday ? What 's the point of spending a year here ? grad a: I 've had it often enough . grad f: Construal , OK , so Oh , so there was one question that came out . , which is , so something like " past " which i you know , we think is a very simple , we 've often just stuck it in as a feature , professor c: Right . grad f: you know , " oh , this event takes place before speech time " , OK , is what this means . , it 's often thought of as it is also considered a mental space , professor c: Right . grad f: So there 's this issue of well sometimes there are really exotic explicit space builders that say " in France , blah - blah - blah " , grad e: grad f: and you have to build up you ha you would imagine that would require you , you know , to be very specific about the machinery , whereas past is a very conventionalized one and we sort of know what it means but it we doesn't don't necessarily want to , you know , unload all the notation every time we see that it 's past tense . grad f: So , you know , we could think of our , just like X - schema " walk " refers to this complicated structure , past refers to , you know , a certain configuration of this thing with respect to it . grad f: So so we 're kind of like having our cake and eating it professor c: Yeah . No , I think I think that i we 'll have to see how it works out when we do the details grad f: So , i i grad a: Do you want to do the same for space ? grad f: Wha - sorry ? grad a: Space ? grad f: Space ? grad a: Here ? Now ? grad f: Oh , oh , oh , oh , instead of just time ? grad a: So there are very conventionalized like deictic ones , right ? And then I think for other spaces that you introduce , you could just attach y whatever grad a: . grad a: well this this basically would involve everything you can imagine to fit under your C dot something grad e: N grad a: you know , where where it 's contextually dependent , grad f: Yeah . grad a: what is in the future , where is this , what is here , what is there , what is " grad f: we 'll we 'll get that on the other side a little , like very minimally . grad f: And you know , you could imagine for both of those are absolute things you could say about the time and place , and then there are many in more interestingly , linguistically anyway , there are relative things that , you know , you relate the event in time and space to where you are now . If there 's something a lot more complicated like , or so hypothetical or whatever , then you have to do your job , grad e: I 'm I 'm s curious about how much of the mental , I 'm not sure that the formalism , sort of the grammatical side of things , is gonna have that much going on in terms of the mental space stuff . You know , basically all of these so - called space builders that are in the sentence are going to sort of I think of it as , sort of giving you the coordinates of , you know assuming that at any point in discourse there 's the possibility that we could be sort of talking about a bunch of different world scenarios , whatever , and the speaker 's supposed to be keeping track of those . The , the construction that you actually get is just gonna sort of give you a cue as to which one of those that you 've already got going , you 're supposed to add structure to . grad e: So " in France , Watergate wouldn't have hurt Nixon " or something like that . , well , you say , " alright , I 'm supposed to add some structure to my model of this hypothetical past France universe " or something like that . The information in the sentence tells you that much but it doesn't tell you like exactly what it what the point of doing so is . So for example , depending on the linguistic con , context it could be like the question is for example , what does " Watergate " refer to there ? Does it , you know does it refer to , if you just hear that sentence cold , the assumption is that when you say " Watergate " you 're referring to " a Watergate - like scandal as we might imagine it happening in France " . But in a different context , " oh , you know , if Nixon had apologized right away it wouldn't you know , Watergate wouldn't have hurt him so badly in the US and in France it wouldn't have hurt him at all " . Now we 're s now that " Watergate " we 're now talking about the real one , grad f: They 're real , right . grad e: and the " would " sort of it 's a sort of different dimension of hypothe - theticality , right ? We 're not saying What 's hypothetical about this world . grad e: In the first case , hypothetically we 're imagining that Watergate happened in France . grad e: In the second case we 're imagining hypothetically that Nixon had apologized right away grad f: grad f: It seems like , the grammatical things such as the auxiliaries that you know introduce these conditionals , whatever , give you sort of the the most basi grad e: grad f: th those we I think we can figure out what the possibilities are , right ? grad e: And then how they interact with some extra thing like " in France " or " if such - and - such " , that 's like there are certain ways that they c they can grad e: Yeah . grad f: You know , one is a more specific version of the general pattern that the grammat grammar gives you . But , you know , whatever , professor c: Yeah , in the short run all we need is a enough mechanism on the form side to get things going . professor c: I , you you grad e: But the whole point of the whole point of what Fauconnier and Turner have to say about , mental spaces , and blending , and all that stuff is that you don't really get that much out of the sentence . An individual sentence could mean a hundred different things depending on , quote , " what the space configuration is at the time of utterance " . grad e: And so somebody 's gonna have to be doing a whole lot of work but not me , I think . Oh , I yeah , I , I think that 's Not k I th I don't think it 's completely right . , in fact a sentence examples you gave in f did constrain the meaning b the form did constrain the meaning , grad e: Yeah . professor c: and so , it isn't , grad e: Sure , but like what what was the point of saying that sentence about Nixon and France ? That is not there is nothing about that in the in the sentence really . professor c: that that that we 're not expecting much out of the , f grad e: Yeah . professor c: but , it seems to me that th these we we you know , we 've talked about maybe a half a dozen linguistics theses in the last few minutes or something . professor c: I , that that 's my feeling that that these are really hard , problems that decide exactly what what 's going on . grad f: OK , so , one other thing I just want to point out is there 's a lot of confusion about the terms like " profile , designate , focus " , et cetera , et cetera . grad f: for now I 'm gonna say like " profile " 's often used like two uses that come to mind immediately . So " hypotenuse " , you profiled this guy against the background of the right t right triangle . They use it to really mean , this in a frame th this is the profiles on the these are the ones that are required . Which which I 'm not saying one and two are mutually exclusive but they 're they 're different meanings . For us , OK , so how is it professor c: Does that Is that really what they mean in in grad f: so " designate " FrameNet ? professor c: I didn't know that . grad f: I knew that I thought that that would be something like there 's another term that I 've heard for that thing professor c: Right , OK . Anyway , so I think the the " designate " that we have in terms of meaning is really the " highlight this thing with respect to everything else " . But the second one seems to be useful but we might not need a notation for it ? We don't have a notation for it but we might want one . So for example we 've talked about if you 're talking about the lexical item " walk " , you know it 's an action . Well , it also has this idea it carries along with it the idea of an actor or somebody 's gonna do the walking . Or if you talk about an adjective " red " , it carries along the idea of the thing that has the property of having color red . So I d don't yet know , I have no commitment , as to whether we need it . It might be it 's the kind of thing that w a parser might want to think about whether we require you know , these things are like it 's semantically part of it professor c: N no , no . If you walk " in " , like well , in what ? professor c: Right , there 's grad f: You know , like you have to have the So so it 's only semantically is it it is still required , say , by simulation time though professor c: Right . So it 's that I meant the idea of like that the semantic value is filled in by sim simulation . I don't know if that 's something we need to spa to to like say ever as part of the requirement ? or the construction ? or not . professor c: Or , or or , so the grad f: Have it construed , professor c: Yeah , yeah . professor c: right , yeah , w this is gonna be a b you 're right , this is a bit of in a mess and we still have emphasis as well , or stress , or whatever . grad f: OK , well we 'll get , I we have thoughts about those as well . grad f: the I w I would just s some of this is just like my you know , by fiat . I don't - you know , there 's lots of different ways in the world that people use it . grad f: So , s I think that the way I we would like to think , I think is focus is something that comes up in , lots of basically this is the information structure . grad f: OK , it 's like , it 's not it might be that there 's a syntactic , device that you use to indicate focus or that there are things like , you know , I think Keith was telling me , things toward the end of the sentence , post - verbal , tend to be the focused focused element , grad e: Mmm . You know , if I " I walked into the room " , you tend to think that , whatever , " into the room " is sort of like the more focused kind of thing . grad f: And when you , you have stress on something that might be , you know , a cue that the stressed element , or for instance , the negated element is kind of related to information structure . , so so I think that 's kind of nice to keep " focus " being an information structure term . So , like " stress " , th stress is kind of a pun on you might have like whatever , like , accent kind of stress . grad f: And that 's just a , w we 'll want to distinguish stress as a form device . grad f: t , and distinguish that from it 's effect which is , " Oh , the kind of focus we have is we 're emphasizing this value often as opposed to other values " , right ? So focus carries along a scope . Like if you 're gonna focus on this thing and you wanna know it sort of evokes all the other possibilities that it wasn't . grad f: so my classic my now - classic example of saying , " Oh , he did go to the meeting ? " , grad e: Yeah . grad f: that was my way of saying as opposed to , you know , " Oh , he didn't g " or " There was a meeting ? " grad e: Yeah . grad f: And so , the like if you said he you know , there 's all these different things that if you put stress on a different part of it then you 're , c focusing , whatever , on , grad e: grad f: " he walked to the meeting " as opposed to " he ran " , or " he did walk to the meeting " as opposed to " he didn't walk " . grad f: so we need to have a notation for that which , I think that 's still in progress . But it did one one implication it does f have for the other side , which we 'll get to in a minute is that I couldn't think of a good way to say " here are the possible things that you could focus on " , cuz it seems like any entity in any sentence , you know , or any meaning component of anyth you know all the possible meanings you could have , any of them could be the subject of focus . grad f: But I think one the one thing you can schematize is the kind of focus , right ? So for instance , you could say it 's the the tense on this as opposed to , the the action . Or it 's , it 's an identity thing or a contrast with other things , or stress this value as opposed to other things . So , it 's it is kind of like a profile profile - background thing but I I can't think of like the limited set of possible meanings that you would that you would focu grad e: Light up with focus , yeah . Li - , the best thing I can come up with is that information has a list of focused elements . For instance , you Oh , one other type that I forgot to mention is like query elements and that 's probably relevant for the like " where is " , you know , " the castle " kind of thing ? grad e: grad f: Because you might want to say that , location or cert certain WH words bring you know , sort of automatically focus in a , you know , " I don't know the identity of this thing " kind of way on certain elements . So that 's onl there are there are many more things that are uncl that are sort of like a little bit unstable about the notation but it 's most I think it 's this is , you know , the current current form . Other things we didn't totally deal with , grad e: Oh , there 's a bunch . grad f: well , we 've had a lot of other stuff that Keith and I have them working on in terms of like how you deal with like an adjective . grad f: And , we should have put an example of this and we could do that later . grad f: But I think the not inherently like the general principles still work though , that , we can have constructions that have sort of constituent structure in that there is like , you know , for instance , one , you know , they they have constituents , right ? So you can like nest things when you need to , but they can also overlap in a sort of flatter way . So if you don't have like a lot of grammar experience , then like this this might , you know , be a little o opaque . But , you know , we have the properties of dependency grammars and some properties of constituents constituent - based grammar . So that 's I think that 's sort of the main thing we wanted to aim for grad e: This my f grad f: As a word ? grad a: No , as as Just don't don't think about it . grad f: As a What 's that ? grad a: If grad f: Sorry . grad a: canonically speaking you can if you look at a a curve over sentence , you can find out where a certain stress is and say , " hey , that 's my focus exponent . grad a: grad f: You mean t forget about stress , the form cue ? grad a: The form bit grad e: Yeah . grad a: because , as a form cue , not even trained experts can always well , they can tell you where the focus exponent is sometimes . grad f: OK , grad a: And all grad e: Yeah , I I 'm sort of inclined to say let 's worry about specifying the information structure focus of the sentence grad f: I believe you , yeah . Ways that you can get it come from th grad e: hhh , the phonology component can handle actually assigning an intonation contour to that . grad e: You know , later on we 'll worry about exactly how grad a: Or or map from the contour to to what the focus exponent is . grad e: But figure out how the grad a: But , if you don't know what you 're what you 're focus is then you 're you 're hopeless - - ly lost anyways , grad e: Yeah . grad a: and the only way of figuring out what that is , is , by sort of generating all the possible alternatives to each focused element , decide which one in that context makes sense and which one doesn't . So , you know , again , that 's something that h humans can do , grad f: Well , yeah , I wouldn't have assumed that it 's an easy problem in in absence of all the oth grad a: u u grad f: you need all the other information I guess . grad a: But it 's it 's what it , it 's pretty easy to put it in the formalism , though . grad a: you can just say whatever stuff , " i is the container being focused or the the entire whatever , both , and so forth . professor c: Yeah , so b b but I think the poi I 'm not sure I understand but here 's what I th think is going on . That if we do the constructions right when a particular construction matches , it the fact that it matches , does in fact specify the focus . professor c: k , at at the very least it constrai grad f: I think that 's that 's , th that 's certainly true . And depending on the construction it may or may not f specify the focus , right ? professor c: Oh , for sure , yes . There are constrai yeah , it 's not every but there are constructions , where you t explicitly take into account those considerations grad f: Yeah . grad a: And " John is on the bus " versus " was " , and e grad f: Is on . grad a: and will we have u is it all the same constructions ? Just with a different foc focus constituent ? grad f: Yeah , I would say that argument structure in terms of like the main like sort of , grad a: grad f: I don't know the fact that you can get it without any stress and you have some whatever is predicated anyway should be the same set of constructions . So , then you have a separate thing that picks out , you know , stress on something relative to everything else . professor c: oh , I 'm sorry , grad f: And it would professor c: go ahead , grad f: yeah , professor c: finish . grad f: and it w and that would have to it might be ambiguous as , whether it picks up that element , or the phrase , or something like that . grad f: So that should , you know , interact with it should overlap with whatever other construction is there . professor c: S s the question is , do we have a way on the other page , when we get to the s semantic side , of saying what the stressed element was , or stressed phrase , or something . Well , so that 's why I was saying how since I couldn't think of an easy like limited way of doing it , all I can say is that information structure has a focused slot professor c: Right . grad f: and I think that should be able to refer to professor c: So that 's down at the bottom here when we get over there . grad f: Yeah , and , infer and I don't have I don't have a great way or great examples professor c: I 'll - I 'll wait . grad f: but I think that something like that is probably gonna be , more more what we have to do . grad f: But , grad a: So grad f: OK , that was one comment . And you had another one ? grad a: Yeah , well the once you know what the focus is the everything else is background . It 's like , " oh ! " It was an epiphany that it you know , topic and focus are a contrast set . So topic is Topic - focused seems to me like , background profile , OK , or a landmark trajector , or some something like that . grad f: Now I don't know whether I n I don't have as many great examples of like topic - indicating constructions on like focus , right ? , topic it seems kind of you know , I think that might be an ongoing kind of thing . grad e: Yeah , that 's what " wa " is , just to mark which thing is the topic . grad f: and one thing that I didn't do consistently , is when we get there , is like indicate what kind of thing fits into every role . I think I have an idea of what it should be but th you know , so far we 've been getting away with like either a type constraint or , you know , whatever . You know , it 'll be it 'll be another predication or it 'll be , I don't know , some value from from some something , some variable and scope or something like that , or a slot chain based on a variable and scope . OK , so well that 's should we flip over to the other side officially then ? grad a: - , . Now we 'll go back to s OK , so this doesn't include something which mi mi may have some effect on on it , which is , the discourse situation context record , right ? So I didn't I I meant just like draw a line and like , you know , you also have , some tracking of what was going on . grad f: And sort of this is a big scale comment before I , you know , look into the details of this . But for instance you could imagine instead of having I I changed the name of it used to be " entities " . And " scenario " is essentially what kind of what 's the basic predication , what event happened . And actually it 's just a list of various slots from which you would draw draw in order to paint your picture , a bunch of frames , bi and bindings , right ? , and obviously there are other ones that are not included here , general cultural frames and general like , other action f grad e: The middle thing used to be " entities " because you could imagine it should be like really a list where here was various information . And this is intended to be grammatically specifiable information about a referent , you know , about some entity that you were going to talk about . So " Harry walked into the room " , " Harry " and " room " , you know , the room th but they would be represented in this list somehow . But the important things for grammatical purposes are for things like number , gender , ki the ones I included here are slightly arbitrary but you could imagine that , you need to figure out wheth if it 's a group whether , some event is happening , linear time , linear spaces , like , you know , are are they doing something serially or is it like , I 'm I 'm not sure . Because this partly came from , Talmy 's schema and I 'm not sure we 'll need all of these actually . But , and then the " status " I used was like , again , in some languages , you know , like for instance in child language you might distinguish between different status . So , th the the big com and and finally " discourse segment " is about sort of speech - act - y information structure - y , like utterance - specific kinds of things . So the comment I was going to make about , changing entity the entity 's block to reference is that you can imagine your discourse like situation context , you have a set of entities that you 're sort of referring to . And you might that might be sort of a general , I don't know , database of all the things in this discourse that you could refer to . And I changed to " reference " cuz I would say , for a particular utterance you have particular referring expressions in it . And and these could actually just point to , you know , the the ID in my other list of enti active entities , right ? So , th there 's there 's all this stuff about discourse status . You know , there 's this , hierarchy there 's a schematization of , you know , things can be active or they can be , accessible , inaccessible . grad f: It was the one that , you know , Keith , emailed to us once , to some of us , not all of us . It was like in this particular set , s you know , instance , it has been referred to recently or it hasn't been , grad e: Yeah . grad f: Yeah , they 're contex and for instance , I used to have a location thing there but actually that 's a property of the situation . And it 's again , time , you know at cert certain points things are located , you know , near or far from you professor c: Well , this is recursive grad f: and professor c: cuz until we do the , mental space story , we 're not quite sure Th - th grad f: Yeah . So I so for now I thought , well maybe I 'll just have in this list the things that are relevant to this particular utterance , right ? Everything else here is utterance - specific . , and I left the slot , " predications " , open because you can have , things like " the guy I know from school " . grad f: Or , you know , like your referring expression might be constrained by certain like unbounded na amounts of prep you know , predications that you might make . And it 's unclear whether , you could just have in your scenario , " here are some extra few things that are true " , right ? grad e: grad f: So it 's it 's a little bit different from just saying " all these things are true from my utterance " . grad e: Right , " this guy I know from school came for dinner " does not mean , " there 's a guy , I know him from school , and he came over for dinner " . Right ? So Or maybe that 's like a restrictive , non - restrictive grad e: Yeah . grad f: you know , it 's like it gets into that kind of thing for , but maybe I 'm mixing , you know this is kind of like the final result after parsing the sentence . grad f: So you might imagine that the information you pass to , you know in identifying a particular referent would be , " oh , some " you know , " it 's a guy and it 's someone I know from school " . grad f: So maybe that would , you know , be some intermediate structure that you would pass into the disc to the , whatever , construal engine or whatever , discourse context , to find you know , either create this reference , grad e: grad f: in which case it 'd be created here , and you know , so so you could imagine that this might not So , I 'm uncommitted to a couple of these things . grad a: But to make it m precise at least in my mind , it 's not precise . grad a: So " house " is gender neuter ? In reality grad f: it could be in grad a: or in professor c: Semantically . , it could be that , maybe you 'd maybe not all these , I wou I would say that I tried to keep slots here that were potentially relevant to most most things . grad a: No , just to make sure that we everybody that 's completely agreed that it it has nothing to do with , form . grad a: Then " predications " makes sense to to have it open for something like , accessibility or not . So maybe having made that big sca sort of like large scale comment , should I just go through each of these slots , each of these blocks , a little bit ? grad e: Sure . And just a note , which was that , s so when we actually ha so for instance , some of them seem more inherently static , OK , like a container or sort of support - ish . And others are a little bit seemingly inherently dynamic like " source , path , goal " is often thought of that way or " force " , or something like that . But in actual fact , I think that they 're intended to be sort of neutral with respect to that . And so , I think this came up when , Ben and I were working with the Spaniards , the other day the " Spaniettes " , as we called them , to decide like how you want to split up , like , s image schematic contributions versus , like , X - schematic contributions . And I think again , it 's gonna be something in the X - schema that tells you " is this static or is this dynamic " . , that , you know , is it , a state or is it a change of state , or is it a , action of some kind ? grad a: i i i is there any meaning to when you have sort of parameters behind it and when you don't ? grad f: . grad a: Just means grad f: Oh , oh ! You mean , in the slot ? grad a: grad f: no , it 's like X - sc it 's it 's like I was thinking of type constraints but X - schema , well it obviously has to be an X - schema . " Agent " , the the performer of the X - schema , that s depends on the X - schema . You know , and I in general it would probably be , you know grad e: So the difference is basically whether you thought it was obvious what the possible fillers were . grad f: " aspectual type " probably isn't obvious but I should have So , I just neglected to stick something in . " Perspective " , " actor " , " undergoer " , " observer " , grad b: Mmm . grad f: I think we 've often used " agent " , " patient " , obser grad e: " Whee ! " That 's that one , right ? grad f: Yeah , exactly . , and so one nice thing that , we had talked about is this example of like , if you have a passive construction then one thing it does is ch you know definitely , it is one way to for you to , you know , specifically take the perspective of the undergoing kind of object . And so then we talked about , you know , whether well , does that specify topic as well ? Well , maybe there are other things . I 'm gonna trail off on that one cuz it 's not that f important right now . professor c: N now , for the moment we just need the ability to l l write it down if if somebody figured out what the rules were . So by default it 'll be like " true " , I guess , you know , if you 're specifying events that did happen . You could imagine that you skip out this you know , leave off this polarity , you know , not don't have it here . But the reason why I left it in is cuz you might have a change of state , let 's say , where some state holds and then some state doesn't hold , and you 're just talking , you know if you 're trying to have the nuts and bolts of simulation you need to know that , you know , whatever , the holder doesn't and professor c: No , I th I think at this lev which is it should be where you have it . grad f: OK , it 's so it 's it 's it 's fine where it is . professor c: how you get it may may in will often involve the discourse grad f: So , OK . professor c: but but by the time you 're simulating you sh y you should know that . grad e: So , I 'm still just really not clear on what I 'm looking at . The " scenario " box , like , what does that look like for an example ? Like , not all of these things are gonna be here . It 's a grab bag of grad e: " part of what I 'm going to hand you is a whole bunch of s , schemas , image , and X - schemas . grad f: And for a particular instance which I will , you know , make an example of something , is that you might have an instance of container and path , let 's say , as part of your , you know , " into " you know , definition . grad f: So you would eventually have instances filled in with various various values for all the different slots . grad f: And they 're bound up in , you know , their bindings and and and values . Do you have to say about the binding in your is there a slot in here for that tells you how the bindings are done ? professor c: No , no , no . I let 's see , I think we 're we 're not I don't think we have it quite right yet . OK , then this says that when an analysis is finished , the whole analysis is finished , you 'll have as a result , some s resulting s semspec for that utterance in context , grad e: OK . professor c: So that that the who that this is the tool kit under whi out of which you can make a semantic specification . But B , which is more relevant to your life , is this is also the tool kit that is used in the semantic side of constructions . professor c: So this is an that anything you have , in the party line , anything you have as the semantic side of constructions comes , from pieces of this ignoring li grad e: OK . professor c: so that the , you know , goal of the , " source , path , goal " has to be the landmark of the conta you know , the interior of this container . These are all so far these structures , especially from " path " and on down , these are sort of relatively familiar , image schematic kind of slots . grad f: So you 'll say , " event one causes event B professor c: And and and and this this this again may ge our , and we and and , of course , worlds . , if y if I said " time " is , you know , " past " , that would say " set that this world " , you know , " somewhere , before the world that corresponds to our current speech time " . Yeah , so " cause " and Other frames that could come in , unfortunately you could bring in say for instance , " desire " or something like that , grad e: And actually there is right now under " discourse segments " , " attitude " ? grad e: So there are a couple things where I like , " oh , I 'm not sure if I wanted to have it there grad e: Well that 's grad f: or " Basically there was a whole list of of possible speaker attitudes that like say Talmy listed . And , like , well , I don't you know , it was like " hope , wish . And it 's like , well , I feel like if I wanted to have an extra meaning I don't know if those are grammatically marked in the first place . So if I wanted to I would stick in an extra frame in my meaning , saying , e so th it 'd be a hierarchical frame them , right ? You know , like " Naomi wants wants su a certain situation and that situation itself is a state of affairs " . So so , " want " itself can be i i i i i grad f: u Can be just another frame that 's part of your professor c: Well , and it i basically it 's an action . professor c: in in our in our s terminology , " want " can be an action and " what you want " is a world . , so anyway , Keith So is this comfortable to you that , once we have this defined , it is your tool kit for building the semantic part of constructions . professor c: And then when we combine constructions semantically , the goal is going to be to fill out more and more of the bindings needed in order to come up with the final one . professor c: And that 's the wh and and , that according to the party line , that 's the whole story . So , there 's this stuff in the off in the scenario , which just tells you how various what schemas you 're using and they 're how they 're bound together . And I guess that some of the discourse segment stuff is that where you would sa grad f: grad e: that 's OK , that 's where the information structure is which sort of is a kind of profiling on different parts of , of this . There 's almost , we keep coming back to how focus is like this this , trajector - landmark thing . grad e: So if I say , You know , " In France it 's like this " . You know , great , we 've learned something about France but the fact is that utterances of that sort are generally used to help you draw a conclusion also about some implicit contrast , like " In France it 's like this " . And therefore you 're supposed to say , " Boy , life sure " grad f: Right . grad e: And so grad f: S so I would prefer not to worry about that for right now grad e: OK . grad f: and to think that there are , grad e: That comes in and , grad f: discourse level constructions in a sense , topic topic - focus constructions that would say , " oh , when you focus something " then grad e: If you stressed , you know , " John went to the " , you know , " the bar " whatever , you 're focusing that grad e: grad f: So similarly for a whole sentence , you know , " in France such - and - such happens " . grad f: So the whole thing is sort of like again implicitly as opposed to other things that are possible . grad a: So that 's his that 's the best way of talking about focus , is I think his way . grad a: I never know how to pronounce his name because he 's sort of , professor c: S Swede ? grad a: he is Dutch professor c: Dutch ? grad a: and , but very confused background I think . grad a: But , I don't know where he is right now but alternative semantics is if you type that into an , browser or search engine you 'll get tons of stuff . grad a: And what I 'm kind of confused about is is what the speaker and the hearer is is sort of doing there . grad f: So for a particular segment it 's really just a reference to some other entity again in the situation , right ? So for a particular segment the speaker might be you or might be me . I guess that that that that 's not very clear from here grad a: Yeah , but you Don't we ultimately want to handle that analogously to the way we handle time and place , grad f: that 's not allowed here . grad a: because " you " , " me " , " he " , " they " , you know , " these guys " , all these expressions , nuh , are in in much the same way contextually dependent as " here , " and " now , " and " there " grad f: professor c: So it 's it 's Fred and Mary , grad f: So th professor c: so the speaker would be Fred and the grad a: Ah ! grad f: Right , so the constructions might of course will refer , using pronouns or whatever . grad f: In which case they have to check to see , who the , speaker in here wa in order to resolve those . But when you actually say that " he walked into " , whatever , the " he " will refer to a particular You you will already have figured who " he " or " you " , mmm , or " I " , maybe is a bett better example , who " I " refers to . , and then you 'd just be able to refer to Harry , you know , in wherever that person whatever role that person was playing in the event . grad a: And down there in the speaker - hearer part ? grad f: S so , that 's I think that 's just n for instance , Speaker is known from the situation , right ? You 're when you hear something you 're told who the speaker is , you know who the speaker is . In fact , that 's kind of constraining how in some ways you know this before you get to the you fill in all the rest of it . grad f: how else would you grad a: You know , it 's the speaker may in English is allowed to say " I . grad a: But wouldn't the " I " then set up the the s s referent that happens to be the speaker this time grad f: grad a: Or " you " grad f: So grad a: much like the " you " could n grad f: S so OK , so I would say ref under referent should be something that corresponds to " I " . And maybe each referent should probably have a list of way whatever , the way it was referred to . So that 's " I " but , should we say it it refers to , what ? , if it were " Harry " it would refer to like some ontology thing . If it were if it 's " I " it would refer to the current speaker , OK , which is given to be like , you know , whoever it is . So so again , this , this this is gonna to get us into the mental space stuff grad f: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: Except s it 's it 's trickier than that because , the reference for example So he where it gets really tricky is there 's some things , grad f: Yeah . professor c: and this is where blends and all terribl So , some things which really are meant to be identified and some things which aren't . So I thought of having like for each referent , having the list of of the things t with which it is identified . grad f: for instance , So , I guess , it sort of depends on if it is a referring exp if it 's identifiable already or it 's a new thing . grad f: If it 's a new thing you 'd have to like create a structure or whatever . If it 's an old thing it could be referring to , usually w something in a situation , right ? Or something in ontology . grad f: So , there 's a you know , whatever , it c it could point at one of these . professor c: I just had a I just had an an idea that would be very nice if it works . grad f: For what ? professor c: I haven't told you what it is yet . , we might be able to handle context in the same way that we handle mental spaces because , you have somewhat the same things going on of , things being accessible or not . professor c: it c it it , I think if we did it right we might be able to get at least a lot of the same structure . professor c: So that pulling something out of a discourse context is I think similar to other kinds of , mental space phenomena . And And professor c: I 've I 've I 've never seen anybody write that up but maybe they did . grad e: There 's things like ther you know , there 's all kinds of stuff like , in I think I mentioned last time in Czech if you have a a verb of saying then grad f: So so by default grad e: you know , you say something like or or I was thinking you can say something like , " oh , I thought , you are a republican " or something like that . grad e: you know , sort of the past tense being copied onto the lower verb doesn't happen there , so you have to say something about , you know , tense is determined relative to current blah - blah - blah . grad e: There 's languages where , if you have a verb of saying then , ehhh , where OK , so a situation like " Bob said he was going to the movies " , where that lower subject is the same as the person who was saying or thinking , you 're actually required to have " I " there . grad e: and it 's sort of in an extended function professor c: So we would have it be in quotes in English . grad e: it 's been analyzed by the formalists as being a logophoric pronoun , which means a pronoun which refers back to the person who is speaking or that sort of thing , right ? professor c: OK . grad e: but , that happens to sound like the word for " I " but is actually semantically unrelated to it . grad f: Oh , no ! professor c: Oh , good , I love the formali grad e: grad f: Really ? grad e: Yeah . , Mary Dalrymple , this book , a ninety - three book on , on pronoun stuff . And then the same thing for ASL where , you know , you 're signing and someone says something . And then , you know , so " he say " , and then you sort of do a role shift . So , the point is that pronoun references , you know , sort of ties in with all this mental space stuff and so on , and so forth . professor c: So that that d that does sound like it 's co consistent with what we 're saying , yeah . grad f: OK , so it 's kind of like the unspecified mental spaces just are occurring in context . And then when you embed them sometimes you have to pop up to the h you know , depending on the construction or the whatever , you you you 're scope is m might extend out to the the base one . grad f: It would be nice to actually use the same , mechanism since there are so many cases where you actually need it 'll be one or the other . grad f: It 's like , oh , actually , it 's the same same operation . grad e: It 's like it 's like what 's happening that , yeah , what what 's happening , there is that you 're moving the base space or something like that , right ? grad f: Yeah , yeah . grad e: So that 's that 's how Fauconnier would talk about it . grad e: things like pronoun reference and tense which we 're thinking of as being these discourse - y things actually are relative to a Bayes space which can change . professor c: cuz it it it to the extent that it works , it y grad f: Ties it all into it . grad f: Yeah , that 's why I said " point to Robert " , when I did it . Mmm , isn't , I 'm I was sort of dubious why why he even introduces this sort of reality , you know , as your basic mental space and then builds up grad e: grad a: d doesn't start with some because it 's so obvi it should be so obvious , at least it is to me , that whenever I say something I could preface that with " I think . grad a: So there should be no categorical difference between your base and all the others that ensue . professor c: No , but there 's there 's a Gricean thing going on there , that when you say " I think " you 're actually hedging . You can , th put just the phrase " I think " as a parenthetical in the middle of a sentence and so on , and so forth . grad e: So grad f: Actually one of the child language researchers who works with T Tomasello studied a bunch of these constructions and it was like it 's not using any kind of interesting embedded ways just to mark , you know , uncertainty or something like that . grad a: Yeah , but about linguistic hedges , those those tend to be , funky anyways because they blur professor c: So we don't have that in here either do we ? grad e: Yeah . grad f: Hhh , I there used to be a slot for speaker , it was something like factivity . grad f: But it 's something grad e: Well we were just talking about this sort of evidentiality and stuff like that , right ? grad f: we we were talking about sarcasm too , right ? Oh , oh . grad e: that 's what I think is , sort of telling you what percent reality you should give this professor c: So we probably should . grad e: Yeah , and the fact that I 'm , you know the fact maybe if I think it versus he thinks that might , you know , depending on how much you trust the two of us or whatever , grad f: Yeah . grad e: you know grad a: If you study how people use that it 's also grad f: What 's the word ? grad a: " about . professor c: And I think And I think y if you want us to spend a pleasant six or seven hours you could get George started on that . grad e: Would you believe that that paper lead directly to the development of anti - lock brakes ? grad f: What ? professor c: No . grad f: So , and and I think , someone had raised like sarcasm as a complication at some point . Yeah , let 's I I don't I think grad f: And we just won't deal with sarcastic people . professor c: Yeah , grad e: I don't really know what like We we don't have to care too much about the speaker attitude , right ? Like there 's not so many different hhh , I don't know , m grad f: Certainly not as some Well , they 're intonational markers I think for the most part . grad f: I don't know too much about the like grammatical grad e: I just mean There 's lots of different attitudes that that the speaker could have and that we can clearly identify , and so on , and so forth . grad e: But like what are the distinctions among those that we actually care about for our current purposes ? professor c: Right . grad f: Oh , yeah , do we have any ? grad e: Here it is three - fifteen already . professor c: so , I I don't know the answer but but , it does seem that , you know , this is this is coming along . It 's as far as I can tell there 's this one major thing we have to do which is the mental the whole s mental space thing . professor c: So we had started with the idea that the actual , constraint was related to this tourist domain and the kinds of interactions that might occur in the tourist domain , assuming that people were being helpful and weren't trying to d you know , there 's all sorts of God knows , irony , and stuff like which you isn't probably of much use in dealing with a tourist guide . So y , no end of things th that that , you know , we don't deal with . grad a: But it professor c: And grad a: i isn't that part easy though professor c: Go ahead . grad a: because in terms of the s simspec , it would just mean you put one more set of brack brackets around it , and then just tell it to sort of negate whatever the content of that is in terms of irony grad e: Yeah . grad f: Yeah , in model theory cuz the semantics is always like " speaker believes not - P " , you know ? professor c: Right . grad f: Right , right , but , professor c: Anyway , so so , I guess , let me make a proposal on how to proceed on that , which is that , it was Keith 's , sort of job over the summer to come up with this set of constructions . , and my suggestion to Keith is that you , over the next couple weeks , n grad e: Mmm . professor c: don't try to do them in detail or formally but just try to describe which ones you think we ought to have . professor c: And , so th these are this is a set of things that I think we ought to deal with . professor c: And then we 'll we 'll we 'll go back over it and w people will will give feedback on it . professor c: And then then we 'll have a at least initial spec of of what we 're actually trying to do . professor c: And that 'll also be useful for anybody who 's trying to write a parser . professor c: So a and we get this this , portals fixed and then we have an idea of the sort of initial range . And then of course Nancy you 're gonna have to , do your set of but you have to do that anyway . professor c: So so we 're gonna get the w we 're basically dealing with two domains , the tourist domain and the and the child language learning . And then my proposal would be to , not totally cut off more general discussion but to focus really detailed work on the subset of things that we 've we really want to get done . professor c: And then as a kind of separate thread , think about the more general things and and all that . grad a: Well , I also think the detailed discussion will hit you know , bring us to problems that are of a general nature and maybe even professor c: without doubt . professor c: But what I want to do is is is to to constrain the things that we really feel responsible for . professor c: So that that we say these are the things we 're really gonna try do by the end of the summer grad e: professor c: and other things we 'll put on a list of of research problems or something , because you can easily get to the point where nothing gets done because every time you start to do something you say , " oh , yeah , but what about this case ? " grad e: Anyways grad b: There 's that quote in Jurafsky and Martin where where it goes where some guy goes , " every time I fire a linguist the performance of the recognizer goes up . So , is is that does that make sense as a , a general way to proceed ? grad f: Sure , yeah . grad e: Yeah , yeah , we 'll start with that , just figuring out what needs to be done then actually the next step is to start trying to do it . The one big grad b: Ooo , can I ask a grad e: You ran out of power . grad a: Huh ? grad b: Can I ask a quick question about this side ? grad a: Yeah . grad b: Is this , was it intentional to leave off things like " inherits " and grad f: Oops . grad f: not really just on the constructions , right ? grad b: Yeah , like constructions can inherit from other things , grad f: grad b: am I right ? grad f: yeah . grad e: yeah , there should be I I wanted to s find out someday if there was gonna be some way of dealing with , if this is the right term , multiple inheritance , professor c: grad e: where one construction is inheriting from , from both parents , grad f: - huh . So let me grad e: Cuz the problem is that then you have to grad f: Yeah . professor c: my argument is there 's nothing you can do with that that you can't do by just having more constructions . professor c: It 's uglier and it d doesn't have the deep linguistic insights and stuff . grad e: No , by all means , professor c: And so I what I 'd like to do is is in the short run focus on getting it right . professor c: And when we think we have it right then saying , " aha ! , grad e: Yeah . professor c: can we make it more elegant ? " grad e: Yeah , that 's professor c: Can can we , What are the generalizations , and stuff ? grad e: Yeah . professor c: But rather than try to guess a inheritance structure and all that sort of stuff before we know what we 're doing . professor c: So I would say in the short run we 're not gonna b grad e: Yeah . And and it could be that half way through we say , " aha ! , we we now see how we want to clean it up . professor c: and inheritance is only one , that 's one way to organize it but there are others . , thanks to Eva on our web site we can now , if you want to run JavaBayes , you could see get download these classes . And then it will enable you she modified the GUI so it has now a m a m a button menu item for saving it into the embedded JavaBayes format . Do you want to say something about that , that it works , right ? With the grad d: I was just checking like , when we wanna , get the posterior probability of , like , variables . You know how you asked whether we can , like , just observe all the variables like in the same list ? You can't . grad a: OK , that 's that 's a bit unfortunate grad d: So Yeah . grad a: but for the time being it 's it 's it 's fine to do it grad d: You just have to have a long list of , you know , all the variables . grad f: all the things you want to query , you just have to like ask for separately . grad a: Well that 's probably maybe in the long term that 's good news because it forces us to think a little bit more carefully how how we want to get an out output . We 're really running late , so I had , an idea yesterday but , I don't know whether we should even start discussing . grad a: the construal bit that , has been pointed to but hasn't been , made precise by any means , may w may work as follows . I thought that we would , that the following thing would be in incredibly nice and I have no clue whether it will work at all or nothing . , imagine you you write a Bayes - net , grad f: Bayes ? grad a: Bayes - net , grad f: OK . grad a: You consult consult your ontology which will tell you a bunch of stuff , and parts , and properties , - - grad f: Grout out the things that that you need . grad a: then y you 'd simply write , these into onto your your white piece of paper . You won't get you won't really get any C P T 's , therefore we need everything that that configures to what the situation is , IE , the context dependent stuff . grad a: And that fills in your CPT 's with which you can then query , the the net that you just wrote and find out how thing X is construed as an utterance U . And the embedded JavaBayes works exactly like that , that once you we have , you know , precise format in which to write it , so we write it down . And the the nice thing about this idea is that you don't ever have to sit down and think about it or write about it . You may have some general rules as to how things can be can be construed as what , so that will allow you to craft the the the initial notes . professor c: it sounds to me like you want P R grad a: P R Ms - , PRM , since you can unfold a PRM into a straightforward Bayes - net professor c: Beca - because it b because No , no , you can't . So once you have instantiated the PRM with the instances and ther then you can then you can unfold it . In professor c: Well , no , but it matters a lot because you what you want are these generalized rules about the way things relate , th that you then instantiate in each case . professor c: Yeah , and that 's grad a: professor c: Yeah , that 's the only way it could work . I we have a our local expert on P R , but my guess is that they 're not currently good enough to do that . It 's related to the Hobbs abduction story in that you th you throw everything into a pot and you try to come up with the , grad a: Except there 's no no theorem prover involved . professor c: No , there isn't a theorem prover but there but but the , The cove the the P R Ms are like rules of inference and you 're you 're coupling a bunch of them together . professor c: And then ins instead of proving you 're trying to , you know , compute the most likely . But you yeah , it 's a good it 's a it 's a good thing to put in your thesis proposal . grad a: What 's it ? professor c: So are you gonna write something for us before you go ? grad a: Yes . So , what 's what when are we gonna meet again ? grad f: When are you leaving ? grad a: Fri - , grad f: Thursday , Friday ? grad a: Thursday 's my last day here . Do you mean by we , the whole ben gang ? professor c: N no , I didn't mean y just the two of us . But the question is do you want to , for example , send the little group , a draft of your thesis proposal and get , another session on feedback on that ? Or grad a: We can do it Th - Thursday again . Should we do the one PM time for Thursday since we were on that before or ? grad a: Sure . grad a: Thursday at one ? I can also maybe then sort of run through the , the talk I have to give at EML which highlights all of our work . grad a: If it 's equal for all ? What should we do ? grad f: Yeah , it 's fine . grad a: It 's equal to all of us , so you can decide one or four . grad a: Liz actually said she likes four because it forces the Meeting Recorder people to cut , you know the discussions short <doc-sep>grad d: grad e: What does your thing say on the back ? grad d: Testing . grad f: Yeah , well , I g guess it 's coming up then , or grad d: Cuz it 's That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one . grad d: Your mike number is what we 're t grad e: Look at the back . grad d: Ho ! grad b: So grad d: I 've bested you again , Nancy . Damn ! Foiled again ! grad d: So is Keith showing up ? He 's talking with George right now . , is he gonna get a rip rip himself away from from that ? grad b: He 'll probably come later . grad d: Oh , then it 's just gonna be the five of us ? professor c: Yeah . grad e: Well , he he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four . So , Eva just reported she 's really happy about the CBT 's being in the same order in the XML as in the be Java declaration format grad f: Yeah . The e grad e: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion . grad e: The , Java the embedded Bayes wants to take input , a Bayes - net in in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that 's output by the Java Bayes for the into the , E Bayes input . grad f: Actually , maybe I could try , like , emailing the guy and see if he has any something already . grad f: That 'd be weird , that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in grad d: But that 's some sort of conversion program ? grad f: Yeah . grad e: And , well pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list , I would have asked Keith how the " where is X ? " hand parse is standing . grad d: So the trees for the XML trees for the for the gene for the synthesizer are written . Just gonna be you know professor c: Oh ! You were gonna send me a note about hiring grad e: Yes . grad e: OK , so natural language generation produces not a just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but , a surface string with a syntax tree that 's fed into a concept - to - speech . grad e: Now and this concept - to - speech module has certain rules on how if you get the following syntactic structure , how to map this onto prosodic rules . grad e: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite , the German concept syntax - to - prosody rules grad b: I didn't know she spoke German . And therefore the , if it 's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week , then she 'll do that . grad d: What language is that written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me ? grad e: Yeah . grad d: She knows how to program in Scheme ? I hope ? grad e: No , I My guess is I I asked for a commented version of that file ? If we get that , then it 's doable , even without getting into it , even though the Scheme li , stuff is really well documented in the Festival . grad d: Well , I guess if you 're not used to functional programming , Scheme can be completely incomprehensible . But anyway , send me the note and then I 'll - I 'll check with , Morgan on the money . Oh , so this was You know , on the generation thing , if sh y she 's really going to do that , then we should be able to get prosody as well . grad d: Are we gonna Can we change the voice of the of the thing , because right now the voice sounds like a murderer . grad b: Wh - Which one ? grad d: The the little Smarticus Smarticus sounds like a murderer . grad e: It is , we have the choice between the , usual Festival voices , which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they 're really bad . grad b: Festival ? professor c: It 's the name of some program , grad b: Oh , oh . grad e: OGI has , crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we 're going to use that . grad d: Does OGI stand for ? Original German Institute ? professor c: Orego grad b: So . grad b: Oregon Graduate Insti professor c: Oregon @ @ Graduate Institute grad d: Oh . professor c: It turns out there 's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group . professor c: In fact , there 's this guy who 's basically got a joint appointment , Hynek Hermansky . And it 's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to , learn that as of twenty minutes ago , David and I , per accident , managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the , ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from one on my laptop to three . grad e: I suggested to try something that was really kind of even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked , but it worked . grad b: Will it work again , grad e: Maybe maybe maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing . It - it 's just like why why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working ? grad a: ! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer , right ? grad e: Which grad a: You know , and it 's cool , it works out that way . So , the the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again . grad a: What what thing is this ? grad e: Where is X ? grad a: OK . grad e: Oh , but by , we can ask , did you get to read all four hundred words ? professor c: I did . That professor c: You know , i Yeah , it grad d: Each paragraph is good , though . grad b: Yeah , I didn't know about it until Robert told me , like , professor c: Yeah , I I ra I ran across it in I don't even know where , you know some just some weird place . And , yeah , I I 'm surprised I didn't know about it grad b: Y yeah . I was like , why didn't Dan tell me ? professor c: since we know all the invited speakers , an grad a: Right . Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler , who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the , you know , using these structured belief - nets and stuff but starting in August , that she 's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we 'll figure out a way for you you to get seriously connected with , their group . So , And it looks to me like we 're now at a good point to do something start working on something really hard . grad a: Oh ! professor c: w Which is mental spaces and and - or grad a: ! grad b: It 's hard . But the other part of it is the way they connect to these , probabilistic relational models . So there 's all the problems that the linguists know about , about mental spaces , and the cognitive linguists know about , but then there 's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets . professor c: So there 's a term " dynamic belief - net " , doesn't mean that . But one of the things I w would like to do over the next , month , it may take more , is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be , but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences . So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models , they 're set up , in principle , so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other , and all that sort of stuff , so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you 've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate , belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate . But that 's g that 's , as far as I can tell , it 's it 's putting together two real hard problems . One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and and when you have a certain , construction , that implies certain couplings and other couplings , you know , between let 's say between the past and the present , or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it 's got , let 's say one in in , you know , different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs , or any of these other ones of of multiple models . So you know , in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both , in a way we that , you know , th hopefully turns out to be consistent , so that the . But anyway , so that 's , grad a: Oh yeah , like , I solved the the problem of we were talking about how do you various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote " count as a noun phrase " , you know , occur as an argument of a higher construction , but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way . grad a: and it would take a really long time to explain it now , but I 'm about to write it up this evening . I solved that at the same time as " how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase " to get something like " I the kicked dog " . No , I know , I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some , relatively clean rules , they 're just not context - free trees . professor c: And if we if the formalism is is good , then we should be able to have , you know , sort of moderate scale thing . And that by the way is is , Keith , what I encouraged George to be talking with you about . professor c: The p And Oh , another thing , there was this , thing that Nancy agreed to in a in a weak moment this morning that grad a: ! grad b: I was really strong . professor c: Anyway , that we were that we 're gonna try to get a , first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week . professor c: just trying to write up essentially what what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at . We 've talked about it , but only the innermost inner group currently , grad a: grad a: There 's The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno professor c: Well that that yeah th there 's one of the advantages of a document , right ? , grad a: Yeah . Anyway , so , with a little luck l let 's , let 's have that as a goal anyway . grad a: So , what was the date there ? professor c: And grad a: Monday or ? It 's a Friday . grad b: But , but but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th grad a: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah . Anyway , w let 's talk separately about how t grad a: Yeah , I have a busy weekend but after that Yeah , gung - ho . grad a: Great , professor c: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that 's fine . There 's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet that , that 's just fine . grad a: But at at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now . professor c: Right , t t if to the extent that we have it , let 's write it grad a: OK . professor c: and to the extent we don't , let 's find out what we need to do . professor c: So , grad e: Can we ? Is it worth thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain , that involves a a a decent mental space shift or setting up professor c: I think it is , but but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with " where is the Powder - Tower ? " or whatever grad b: Right . , what was supposed to happen ? I 've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones , so , you know , I don't have a write - up of or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were grad e: yeah . I think I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative paths that we two alternative ways of representing it . grad e: grad a: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic . grad a: so d ' you Is it clear what we 're talking about here ? grad b: I agree . grad a: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path . grad e: It 's grad a: or or whether the construction semantically , is clearly only asking for location grad e: Should we have a a a grad b: grad a: but pragmatically that 's construed as meaning " tell me how to get there " . grad e: So assume these are two , nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net . grad e: So these are either true or false and it 's also just true or false . If we encounter a phrase such as " where is X ? " , should that set this to true and this to true , and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely ? , or should it just activate this , have this be false , and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means ? professor c: w that 's a s grad b: Slightly different . professor c: So I a I I th I agree with you that , it 's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every , pragmatic reading , grad a: professor c: there there 's some that grad b: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one . But , you know , c almost certainly " can you pass the salt " is a construction worth noting that there is this th this this this grad a: Yeah . Is it is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever . grad e: One Or in some cases , it 's it 's quite definitely professor c: Yeah . Well the question is basically , is this conventional or conversational implicature ? professor c: Exactly . professor c: And I guess , see , the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it 's more important to know how we would treat technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B , than it is t to decide A or B r right now . professor c: So I guess In the short run , let 's let 's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be . grad e: And then the we had another idea floating around , which we wanted to , get your input on , and that concerns the But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it , and that 's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML who is going to be visiting us , the week before , August and a little bit into August . , and one of the reas one of the those ideas was , so , back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history and it said the word " admission fee " was , mentioned , it 's more likely that the person actually wants to enter than just take a picture of it from the outside . Now what could imagine to , you know , have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history , yeah ? That 's the really stupid way . Then there is the really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the , middle way that I 'm suggesting and that is you you get X , which is whatever , the castle . The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours , that they have admission fees , they have whatever . And then , this is We go via a thesaurus and look up certain linguistic surface structures that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity . We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side . But Keith suggested that a a much cleaner way would be is , you know , to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before , this just a continues to add up , you know , in th in a grad a: So if someone mentions admission f fees , that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what 's being talked about . And then when someone asks " where is X ? " you 've already got the the Enter schema activated grad b: Kind of a priming professor c: professor c: grad d: Well , is it doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a a thread , that you know , kept track of ho of the activity of , cuz it would the the thread would know what nodes like , needed to be activated , so it could just keep track of how long it 's been since something 's been mentioned , and automatically load it in . But here 's here 's a way in th in the bl Bayes - net you could you could think about it this way , that if at the time " admissions fee " was mentioned you could increase the probability that someone wanted to enter . grad d: We - yeah th th that 's what I wa I wasn't I was I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas . I was just professor c: Fair enough , OK , but , but , in terms of the c c the current implementation right ? so that grad b: It would already be higher in the context . professor c: th that th the the the conditional probability that someone So at the time you mentioned it This is this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation . professor c: It 's In some ways it 's not as good but it 's the implementation we got . Now Now my guess is that it 's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another intervening object has been mentioned . professor c: we could look at dialo this is Of course the other thing we ha we do is , is we have this data coming grad a: Yeah . professor c: but but skipping that so so but my guess is what what 'll probably will happen , Here 's a here 's a proposed design . is that there 're certain constructions which , for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the , standard way that that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever , but that 's sort of the most recent thing . And so it could be that when another , en tourist entity gets mentioned , you grad b: Renew professor c: re re essentially re - initiali you know , re - i essentially re - initialize the state . professor c: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have , you could keep track of what someone was saying about this and that . professor c: You know , " I wanna go in the morning grad a: " Here 's my plan for today . " professor c: Yeah , or Yeah , in the morning morning I I 'm planning t to go shopping , grad a: hypothetically . professor c: tal so I 'm talking about shopping and then you say , you know , well , " What 's it cost ? " or something . professor c: But I do th think that the It 'll turn out that it 's gonna be depend pretty much on whether there 's been an override . grad e: Yeah , if if you ask " how much does a train ride and and cinema around the vineyards cost ? " and then somebody tells you it 's sixty dollars and then you say " OK How much is , I would like to visit the " whatever , something completely different , " then I go to , you know , Point Reyes " , professor c: Yeah . grad e: it it 's not more likely that you want to enter anything , but it 's , as a matter of fact , a complete rejection of entering by doing that . grad b: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something , it 's only for that particular It 's relational , right ? It 's only for that particular object . Well , and and and the simple idea is that it 's on it 's only for m for the current , tourist e entity of instre interest . But that 's this this function , so , has the current object been mentioned in in with a question about concerning its professor c: No , no . Is When th When the this is mentioned , the probability of of , let 's say , entering changes grad b: Of that object . grad d: You could just hav , just basically , ob it It observes an er , it sets the a node for " entered " or " true " or something , professor c: Yeah . Now , But I think Ro - Robert 's right , that to determine that , OK ? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus grad d: " discourse enter " . professor c: and and So , if the issue is , if so now th this construction has been matched and you say " OK . Does this actually have any implications for our decisions ? " Then there 's another piece of code that presumably does that computation . professor c: But but what 's Robert 's saying is is , and I think he 's right , is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all you know , all the wo maybe . Well , it 's just another , sort of , construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the probabilities , and - or grad b: Guess it 's like I g The other thing is , whether you have a m m user model that has , you know , whatever , a current plan , whatever , plans that had been discussed , and I don't know , grad d: What , what 's the argument for putting it in the construction ? Is it just that the s synonym selection is better , or ? professor c: Oh , wel Well , the ar the The argument is that you 're gonna have the If you 've recognized the word , you 've recognized the word , which means you have a lexical construction for it , so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it 's a , you know , thirty percent increase in probability of entering . You So you could you could you could invert invert the whole thing , so you s you tag that information on to the lexicon grad d: Mmm . at at Yeah , and this is grad e: Even though the lexical construction itself out out of context , won't do it . grad e: " But I but I 'm not interested in the opening times " is sort of a more a V type . But , we 'll , we have time to This is a s just a sidetrack , but I think it 's also something that people have not done before , is , sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of , inferences , on whether anything relevant to the current something has been , has crept up in the dialogue history already , or not . And , I have the , If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom , I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there . professor c: So the point is , it 's very likely that Robert 's thesis is going to be along these lines , grad b: Oh , s professor c: and the local rules are if it 's your thesis , you get to decide how it 's done . So if , you know if this is seriously , if this becomes part of your thesis , you can say , hey we 're gonna do it this way , that 's the way it 's done . So h he 's got a th he 's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor . , this is this is , speaking of hard problems , this is a very good time , to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and you know , where c where the construction per - se ends and where construal comes in , grad a: But that 's part of what the f grad b: We have many jobs for you , Ro - Robert . professor c: is is because th it is gonna have implicit in it grad e: Was I ? In the room ? grad b: No , you weren't there on purpose . professor c: Yeah , that That 's the point , is is th grad a: Yeah . grad d: Yeah , but it he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis . So consequently don't I get to decide then that it 's Robert 's job ? professor c: No . grad b: Well , I 'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center and say it 's Robert 's . grad e: I 've always been completely in favor of consensus decisions , grad b: I can professor c: Right . professor c: not grad e: It it might even be interesting then to say that I should be forced to , sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the , out of the top hat professor c: Yes . grad e: Yes , and , it 's Ha - None of that is basically still around , grad b: I didn't get professor c: And a another draft OK . grad e: but it 's professor c: D i grad a: That 's normal . professor c: I i grad b: Oh , I guess it 's good I didn't read it . professor c: and grad e: Yeah , and I would like to d discuss it and , you know , get you guys 's input professor c: Right . professor c: So that , so th thi this , so this is the point , is we we 're going to have to cycle through this , grad a: Yeah . professor c: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is is going to tell us a lot about what we think needs to be done by construal . grad b: grad e: Meeting regular meeting time for the summer , we really haven't found one . It 's - it 's a coincidence that he can't do couldn't do it today here . professor c: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday , grad e: So professor c: cuz of of , grad e: Yeah , it was just an exception . professor c: Yeah , you weren't here , but but but s , And so , if that 's OK with you , grad a: It 's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon ? professor c: you would grad a: OK . How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays ? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we have things to discuss with other people , there they seem to be s tons of people around . professor c: The only disadvantage is that it may interfere with other grad e: Or subgroup meetings professor c: s you know , other other No , you , people in this group connecting with with grad b: Those people who happen to be around . I I you know I have no fixed grad a: To tell you the truth , I 'd rath I 'd , I 'd would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day , if possible . that grad e: The I 'd like to have them all in one day , grad a: Yeah , I can understand that . professor c: Well p grad e: so package them up and then professor c: people people differ in their tastes in this matter . I 'm always here anyway , grad e: It 's OK , that grad b: so It doesn't matter . grad e: Well , if one sort of thing is , this room is taken at after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection . grad e: So we just knew i grad b: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o ' grad e: No , he can . About the c the th grad b: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty ? Would that that be horrible ? grad e: No . grad b: Oh really ? grad e: Because , this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan . grad e: And the s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings grad b: OK , OK , OK . professor c: I I could grad b: we usually meet Tuesday or l like , linguists , at two . Do you want to meet again here bef grad d: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at on Tuesdays ? grad e: w Well , actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday . grad a: That doesn't apply to a grad d: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday er , take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping . ! grad b: Well , the linguists ' meeting i happens to be at two , but I think that 's . grad a: And , you know , of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room . grad e: Monday ? professor c: OK , whate What I think Robert 's saying is that grad a: Earlier in the week professor c: earlier we At least for next week , there 's a lot of stuff we want to get done , grad a: grad b: At o o o o one , two , three ? grad e: One , two , three ? Three 's too late . professor c: Oh , I i Yeah , I actually Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday . professor c: Here I 'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday . grad b: You guys will still remind me , right ? grad d: No way ! grad b: Y you 'll come and take all the the headph the good headphones first and then remind me . grad e: And grad b: Why do I have this unless I 'm gonna write ? grad e: do I get to see th , your formalism before that ? grad b: Fine . grad e: I wo I would like I would sort of get a get a notion of what what you guys have in store for me . professor c: Well m @ @ you know , w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put This is part of what we can do Monday , if we want . grad b: Yeah , so there was like , you know , m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version , like , everything I know . grad b: And then , w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know , that you know , see if they 're consistent . Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this . I might I might , grad e: You - y grad b: s You said you 're busy over th until the weekend , right ? grad a: Yeah , sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show . So , maybe I 'll send you some grad a: if you have time after this I 'll show you the noun phrase thing . OK , and we 'll You wanna m grad e: So the idea is on Monday at two we 'll we 'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions , grad a: Yeah . grad b: So that 's OK for you grad e: and do an on - line merging with my construal ideas . grad e: So it won't be , like , a for semi - formal presentation of my proposal . grad b: Cuz then you 'll find out more of what we 're making you do . Can you also write it up ? grad b: It 's like , " this is what we 're doing . " grad e: I 'll I 'll send you I 'll I 'll send you a style file , right ? grad b: OK . grad e: You just grad b: I already sent you my fi my bib file . grad a: Someday we also have to we should probably talk about the other side of the " where is X " construction , which is the issue of , how do you simulate questions ? What does the simspec look like for a question ? grad e: Yeah . professor c: Yeah , now , we we w grad a: We had to we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work . I professor c: OK ? So let 's think of a name for for whatever the this intermediate structure is . Oh , we talked about semspec , for " semantic spec specification " grad a: Mmm . grad a: It 's more general professor c: You know , so it 's a m minimal change . professor c: Right , a little substi substi You know , that 's what text substitution macros are for . professor c: Anyway , so let 's let 's for the moment call it that until we think of something better . professor c: And , yeah , we absolutely need to find Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there , incl including the questions grad a: professor c: We didn't we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in in , the semspec . grad b: Yeah , we 've talked a little bit about that , too , which , it 's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues , how they map onto this particular one , grad a: Yeah . professor c: But that 's part of the formalism is got to be , how things like that get marked . grad b: W do you have data , like the the You have preliminary data ? Cuz I know , you know , we 've been using this one easy sentence and I 'm sure you guys have , maybe you are the one who 've been looking at the rest of it grad a: I grad b: it 'd it 'd be useful for me , if we want to have it a little bit more data oriented . grad a: To tell you the truth , what I 've been looking at has not been the data so far , grad b: Yeah . grad a: I just sort of said " alright let 's see if I can get noun phrases and , major verb co , constructions out of the way first . grad a: So , I have not really approached a lot of the data , but obviously like these the the question one , since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that , you know , I ca can try and , run with that , you know , try and do some of the sentence constructions now . grad a: Oh yeah , the basic idea is that , you know , let 's see if I can formulate this . grad e: So you perform the mental sum and then , you know , " who fixed the car with a wrench ? " You basically are told , to to do this In the in analogously to the way you would do " someone fixed the car with a wrench " . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out what that , you know , grad a: Means . grad a: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says " and when you 're done , tell me who fills that slot " or w you know . And , you know , this is sort of a nice way to do it , the idea of sort of saying that you treat from the simulation point of view or whatever you treat , WH constructions similarly to , indefinite pronouns like " someone fixed the car " because lots of languages , have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever , grad b: Use actually the same one . So it makes sense professor c: Alright , which is grad a: professor c: Skolemization . professor c: In in logic , it 's it 's @ @ it 's actual Huh ? grad b: Right . professor c: That - that 's not that 's not saying it 's bad , grad a: Right . Anyway , but just that kind of thing and we 'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on , but professor c: Good . We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know , like , what we were talking about exactly , what the object of study was . Well , if if , i part of of what the exercise is , t by the end of next week , is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet . grad e: Well , if you if you do wanna discuss focus background and then get me into that because , I wo I w scientifically worked on that for for almost two years . grad b: Yeah , you should definitely , be on on that maybe maybe by after Monday we 'll y you can see what things we are and aren't grad a: Yeah . grad b: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily , Keith and Keith and me , but like in th the meeting , he sort of I thin like the last meeting we had , I think we were all very much part of it grad a: Yeah . grad b: but grad a: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a devil 's advocate type role or something , grad b: but different perspec Yeah . grad a: like " This make you know , I 'm going to pretend I 'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this . " And he 'll just go off on parts of it which definitely need fixing grad b: Right . grad a: but aren't where we 're at right now , so it 's grad b: Like like what you call certain things , grad a: Yeah . grad b: But in a sense , it 's good to know that he of all people professor c: OK . grad b: you know , like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions , so , you know , he 's like a relatively friendly linguist grad a: Yeah . professor c: OK , which was that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called " Towards a formal cognitive semantics " which was addressed to these linguists who haven't been following this stuff at all . professor c: So it could be that he 's actually , at some level , thinking about how am I going to communicate this story grad a: Yeah . professor c: But if he g if he turns is is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does connect with as many as possible of the other linguists in the world then then it becomes important to use terminology that doesn't make it hard grad a: professor c: it 's gonna be plenty hard for for people to understand it as it is , grad a: Yeah . I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him , and I wanted t to get a feeling for that . grad a: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly , you know . grad a: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we 're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view . grad b: I think it 's good when we 're when we 're into data and looking at the some specific linguistic phenomenon in in English or in German , in particular , whatever , that 's great , professor c: Yeah . grad b: and Ben and and Hans are , if if anything , more you know , they have more to say than , let 's say , I would about some of these things . grad b: But when it 's like , well , w how do we capture these things , you know , I think it 's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know , who have worried more about the grad a: That 's I I I think that should be the the core group grad b: s Which is fine . professor c: and that 's , you know , I think very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done . And then we 're gon we 're gonna because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is actually implementing this stuff ? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that . I was just gonna say , though , that , for instance , there was you know , out of a meeting with Johno came the suggestion that " oh , could it be that the meaning constraints really aren't used for selection ? " which has sort of been implicit in the parsing strategy we talked about . grad b: In which case we w we can just say that they 're the effects or the bindings . Which , so far , in terms of like putting up all the constraints as , you know , pushing them into type constraints , the when I 've , you know , propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me you know , we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work . professor c: Yeah , it has to in the sense that you 're gonna use them eventu it 's you know , it 's sort of a , generate and test kind of thing , grad b: if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use , in your initial matching then you 'll match some things grad b: professor c: I I d I don't think there 's any way that it could completely fail . It it could be that , you wind up The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because there were just vastly too many parses . And so th the concern might be that not that it would totally fail , but that grad b: Right ? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types , right ? professor c: it would still genera grad b: Like " conceptually these have to be construed as this , this , and this " might still give us quite a few possibilities professor c: Yeah . , cuz I think i I think it 's As you know , I think it 's real hard and if w if we Right . grad e: So , you your dance card is completely filled now ? grad a: Shoot . grad e: Why don't grad b: No , that 's not really true , grad a: Bummer . grad b: but like grad d: What about What about DDR ? grad b: It 's almost true . grad f: grad b: Oh , I don't have it this weekend , so , tsk don't have to worry about that . professor c: DDR , he asked ? grad b: Speaking of dance , Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I 'm It 's a it 's like a game , but it 's for , like , dancing . Hard to It 's like karaoke , but for dancing , and they tell you what It 's amazing . Well , y you know of it ? I i i it 's one of your hobbies ? It 's great exercise , I must say . They have , like , places instead of like Yeah , instead of karaoke bars now that have , like , DDR , like Yeah , yeah , I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend , who 's like " Oh , well , I can bring over the DDR if you want

The focus of the presentation will be on the Bayes-net, with the goal of completing a functioning prototype of the belief-net. To achieve this, the expansion of the Ontology and Discourse nodes will begin by working with a simple construction, such as "where is X?". By analyzing this basic utterance, the limits of the information derived from the construction can be determined, and the module can be designed to accommodate other constructions. In order to address mental spaces and context issues (such as time and space), mechanisms will be employed to create interconnected spaces with defined rules of interaction. However, it is important to limit the complexity of these mechanisms and define the scope of the constructions to be studied.

What are the problems associated with and the operation of mental spaces?

Now hopefully we've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . you should know that I'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as I was struggling to our last time and that'll be easier for me now because I'm not actually giving the whole presentation . the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that I forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . Here's the additional points I just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . project manager: So does anyone have any overall marketing: Well what comes up for me is that if we're gonna if we're gonna be marketing a product that is going to be having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we're not we're gonna be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . What are we gonna have that makes this thing better than project manager: Well tha that first point could also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the Internet there is the opportunity that's presented , I guess . marketing: So what I'm talking about is I see that one side we're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gonna be targeting our market that identifies our product as better than because it doesn't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . So we're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that's that's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . industrial designer: So we're gonna be removing the teletext out of any T_V_ that we people use our remote with . project manager: But there's also the potential for mark there's a market here for our lost teletext . project manager: For example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . marketing: That's what I'm that's what I'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gonna be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gonna be hap unhappy 'cause it took they can't ac access their teletext . 'Cause we're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . marketing: So so it's it's not that I'm criticizing the product at all . It's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? What are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: So then the double R_ will be our our project manager: On the product yeah . Can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: I think one of industrial designer: I tho I tho I thou I think Rol Ro Rolls-Royce might mind , but don't worry . user interface: I think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind when we're doing this our company's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . So I think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but I think one of the main selling points is that we don't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . We want something that looks nice and it's fashionable and so marketing: So you have this ? project manager: Nah . But click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , I'm the Industrial Designer . And we've some basic components that our remote is gonna need , just basically every remote'll need 'em . we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . we need a programmable digital signal processor to to take the input from the user and translate that into into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red L_E_D_ , which you aim at the television which and it receives that signal . And we also need to have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of T_V_s . So we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that'll require some memory as well . You ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red L_E_D_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . So those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much open to move around . marketing: Now is would this be considered just a standard user interface: I think any des marketing: This is not this is not cutting edge technology we're talking here . user interface: Yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gonna be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . We can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , that that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . project manager: Do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: well the most the most costly components are gonna be the chip and the th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gonna be expensive as well . user interface: the L_E_D_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they're they're pretty cheap . So depending on what we want our functionality to be , the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . user interface: depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . user interface: but and I think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , I think . project manager: And you wanna get industrial designer: When we're fighting over it's also more lot more fun . project manager: View a slide show , that's what you wanna do , yeah ? Just go up to view . you guys know me , Pedro , and what I found is we want to do fashion and I think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . If basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . project manager: industrial designer: And although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people won't won't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . So as for what I would recommend for the the interface design , and I will change the colours on the on the logo , but we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . and although I th I th I'm still here recommending the teletext so I'll remove that , I guess , but we should go for the project manager: But I t I think what the the management recommendation was less that there's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we shouldn't have it . So I I still think if it's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . project manager: Because otherwise we're just going to even if it's necessary or not , if you if you're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without when it really if it i if it isn't more expensive for us to k make because as far as I understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? So it should be in there . I in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there's gonna be the it's gonna be out-moded teletext . How does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? I don't understand that . project manager: Well maybe what we're getting into here is the the idea of Internet through the T_V_ for example . industrial designer: Yeah the they're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: Scheduling . marketing: Yeah 'cause , yeah , I just I don't see the cross-over between computers and television . I do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: Yeah , but it's not happen yet . marketing: So so if we make the cross-over and we're gonna view television on computers then we're then we're losing the the necessity of the remote . S user interface: Unless you have a project manager: Well there there is a for example on digital T_V_ systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: Yeah . project manager: A a family member of mine has got a system where you just you can Yeah , and there's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live T_V_ and things like that . They're just features from the Internet from computers are are coming into the T_V_ sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . project manager: So now the things to think here are that that there's gonna be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . And all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: I think a lot of that's proprietary anyways . If if it's , for example , a trainable one then we're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: Yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: . One way the other teletext was there but I guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: I think if it's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . marketing: I I don't see the logic in elimination of teletext , I just I I project manager: Yeah , and neither do I in fact . industrial designer: project manager: I'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wanna be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it doesn't affect the price . project manager: but I I think what they're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . project manager: I dunno I'm industrial designer: Yeah but we're not putting some there's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: So so w we can't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: Yeah . So if we drop if we are gonna choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: . So if we're keeping it basic we're loo loo what we're looking to sell it basically is it's just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . marketing: I don't I don't see it , and to me if I'm gonna market a product for b for beauty for for design I'm gonna I'm gonna try to market it at a much higher price . So I would market this product it at eighty-nine Euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but I don't think we have that flexibility . project manager: But i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five Euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard T_V_ so the place remote the then the place we're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . Does that make sense , huh ? marketing: No I no I I understand what you say , project manager: . marketing: but what I'm what I'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: Yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: We we're doing alright for time . marketing: and if I'm coming in with a with with twenty-five Euros , which is mid-market price , then what am I going to give these people for this ? project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: No just I I would I would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . as for , you know , the the case design maybe I'll come up with more concrete ideas . Right now it's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small user interface: Right . I'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . Where I think the largest portion of the market is just gonna you know they lost their T_V_ remote , they need another one that'll work with their T_V_ . They want something that looks nice , that that that isn't gonna break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it's it's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . user interface: I think that's gonna be where you're gonna find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: So we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . Is that user interface: I think the more bells and whistles we add , it's just gonna cut into our into our profits . user interface: Because I think as we as we add costs for things like for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , I think you know what percentage of the of the of the market is actually gonna use that ? project manager: . marketing: Oh P Pedro , I just want to say quickly I I would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: You know sell things come to my mind is something that's voice-activated . I know we're getting into some , I hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: I think that's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: 'Cause and I think of voice-activated I think of of how many times I've I've lost my my remote and I can't find it . So some way that I can I can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: I'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it's like , what are we gonna put in ? What makes this thing attractive ? And it's only for televisions . So we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their V_C_R_s , their D_V_D_s , their their televisions and we're coming out with one remote for television only . marketing: I I I don't s I really have to say I don't see the market niche for this product . I'm I I go along with this , because this is what we're given to try to market , but I I don't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . industrial designer: I think technology we'd we we're not in the price range to do it . We don't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: Okay well , so so that's up to you then to to make this box in something that's absolutely extraordinary . Does any of the the features that Pedro's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? In terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: I don't I think all these things are pretty standard . marketing: Well you know for marketing f marketing for me is and how do I go here ? Okay . user interface: No no no marketing: Is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . Yeah , what for me is it I d I don't know what I'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when I wrote this , I don't know what I'm marketing . I just know that I I was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a distributor t to other wholesalers . And so the th the twenty-five Euros that we've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . so what I did is I I decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . So I say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , something that in a sense will sell itself . cutting edge technology , I don't think we're gonna have that , these were ideas I was putting together , unless we come up with some New Age product a as far as the casing is concerned . I I wanna make this thing something that I can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some I I talked about environmentally sensitive , maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . I wanted to talk about who we are as a as a corporation , that we're new , we're aggressive , we're competitive , we're we're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . marketing: we're kind of in the middle of the market , but what I'm seeing is that the market is ready for I I identified new technology , but again , because what I see is budget restrictions and limitations , I don't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . user interface: And it's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it's a common issue . user interface: what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . Well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: But solar user interface: Like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you're not using it , so you'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . And also you can I I think it's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . You know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: But boy , we can sell this thing , because there's no batteries , it's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . I really see project manager: Now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: But the cost i No no . project manager: We we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because Can we dl can we do that without changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: There's I don't see it anyway . user interface: Well marketing: I my reaction is no , but user interface: what I can do is I can d look into ho well Pedro and I can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gonna have on our on our final numbers . project manager: Yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that's gonna be marketing: Well , see I I see I I'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . Let's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , high-tech design , ergonomics , all of this . If you don't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? Oh you've got one of those , oh fantastic , I want one of those too . user interface: I just don't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level I think we'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the D_V_D_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . And additionally we're m maybe not supporting teletext project manager: Nah , I think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: But I do think there are some basic features that we don't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: Yep , one one thing I don't understand is h they've they've given us this package , okay . I don't think it's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . I don't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder , but to me it's like , okay , you have got your here's our ideas , okay . marketing: And then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it's it's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca I I do not I do not see the market niche for the product that they're handing f handing us right now . I think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or who've broken their remote and don't wanna send back to the manufacturer , they just wanna run out to the store and get a remote , and then they're gonna look on the shelf and they're gonna see ours is the nicest looking remote . These aren't I I think that it project manager: And and th to get to back to another point , sorry for cutting in but , I th I think it's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple T_V_s , yeah , 'cause it's selling on its own . project manager: It's not going to be specifically for Hitachi T_V_s or or whatever . project manager: So technologically , if I understand it , T_V_s T_V_ remote's working exactly the same way as video remotes and D_V_D_ remotes . All you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: So saying that it works with all T_V_s is equivalent to saying that it'll work with D_V_D_s and other things . industrial designer: Yeah y y you you wouldn't marketing: They've identified this product limita project manager: We have done this . marketing: That's why I say I don't I don't see the market niche for this . marketing: If we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for D_V_D_s , V_C_R_s and everything , then I can see the market niche , project manager: marketing: And it's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: Well here's project manager: And I I'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: sorry . user interface: If you're in the market for this ultimate remote , you're not gonna go for just a television remote . If it can't control if it can't control your your D_V_D_ player and a al if y if you can't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . marketing: That's why I say I quest I q I question the marketability of the product . user interface: So that's what I'm saying project manager: The the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we're we're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where I'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . We're trying to get mind-share about Real Reaction to to the people who are gonna buy consumer electronics . We want people to eventually say , oh that's that's Real Reaction that's a good m make . And and we're gonna make it we're gonna win mind-share by either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . So if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking I think that's in itself an extremely big thing . marketing: W okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we're going into an a a new market area . So we can say low-cost good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . project manager: Is twenty-five Euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: Okay . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that's a mid-market price . In a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about eighteen , nineteen Euro , project manager: Okay . marketing: and that's for the multi-functions , D_V_D_ , V_C_R_ , catch-alls . And and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . We have to have something that will change people's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and I don't know what that is . project manager: Well I'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that's the way we really should play it . If we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: Yeah . marketing: Or my d project manager: And I can communicate this to to the more senior people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: What about the idea that I had with the cradle ? How do you feel about that ? project manager: Well how does everybody feel ? user interface: Or how does everybody feel ? marketing: I I well we g we're talking about the other end now . user interface: No , but I that's the thing I I don't think it's necessarily the other end . marketing: I like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: The other the o the problem with that in my mind I just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would I wanna buy that ? And I think maybe not because I've got a remote and I'll take it to different chairs , I'll take it to different user interface: It i if it is gonna be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: Right . So it's very good for some people but it's not a like user interface: Well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: You have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: project manager: I d I d I d I think it it in my mind it doesn't seem like something that oh I'd really want because of that fact . You know if we're gonna go in this direction , to me we're going to the other side of the cost range . marketing: Are we gonna make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gonna go to the lower side of the range ? Again I don't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: So what do we think maybe we should Pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: we should keep it simple , medium-low cost mar cost area and make it look good . marketing: W a question I have in in a 'cause I I I think I agree with you on , we gotta make it a box . marketing: Can can can we have multiple designs ? Have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . I don't know what that creates cost , or user interface: Well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . industrial designer: Yeah , complicated but user interface: but what we could do is some kind of well Yeah we we need to , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that I think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . I think w what's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: Yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and I think it's really important that it doesn't look cheap . I think I think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . marketing: What ab what ab what about a a remote that's that doesn't maybe look like a remote ? Just an idea . Maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that doesn't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: Or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: Doesn't matter , yeah . user interface: A pointer ? marketing: It That's the thing , I'm gonna keep thumping on . I really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that it's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you can't lose it on your own , I think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . user interface: Because I really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me I would want to have that just , because I know at the end of when I'm done watching T_V_ that when I'm done , oh I better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . project manager: there's al there's also remote controls I remember that that worked , this hasn't been done in a while I think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: As a watch ? project manager: Yeah , there is remote control watches , user interface: 'kay . project manager: but I think they're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . marketing: One thing I just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gonna be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: That's what I was saying . So how many remotes do they wanna buy ? Can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: Exactly . marketing: And so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: user interface: And also presumably they've marketing: And and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you'll ever need to buy . project manager: Well if if we're going down that then we can we don't need to go the user interface: Exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be quite expensive to make . project manager: Whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that's just done with mobile phones user interface: True . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . project manager: need to look into whether we can do that but I think we we have some m mobile phone-based products checking quickly our Internet . marketing: It's just it's that I think it's telling us to stop our meeting . marketing: So we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we're talking about . project manager: without it being too In fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that's already gonna be in place here . marketing: If if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: I think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery <doc-sep>project manager: So marketing: So project manager: I hope you're ready for this functional design meeting . we want to know to at the end to know the new project's requirement so we need to know the the user needs that we want to fulfil to fulfil the from the technical part we want to know how it going to work and third part I don't remember marketing: project manager: which is not very good . marketing: So I dunno if I can do that like this ? Yeah ? So it's being modified . I am the expert in marketing and I want to tell you about what people s want and like and dislike in remote controls , and I hope this is going to help you to to design it correctly . marketing: So basically what I suggest is that instead of deciding ourself what what could be and what should be a good remote control , let's ask people who are users of remote controls how they feel about w the current remote controls , what they like , what they don't like and and what they do with them by the way industrial designer: marketing: because they are supposed to be useful . So we've we've conducted a a survey on on the use of remote controls and I'd like to show you some of the results we found on this survey . Yeah , so basically what we found was that there are several things that the user don't like in remote controls . Current remote controls as you know they're the same as this one they're not nice colour , not nice shape , they're all the same , and they're not l good looking . what is interesting is that in fact it seems that they were people are ready to pay for nice and look and fancy looking remote control , so I think we should probably spend lots of time in and effort in that . And the other thing is that the the current remote controls are not so easy to use and it it the the current facilities that they offer do not match what people really want to use their remote controls . For instance we see that they zap very often so I think this is a very important functionality that it should be easy for them to to zap in one way or another . And most of the buttons on current remote controls are not used , so I think we should design something where some of the buttons which are those that are used should be easier to see and use than others that only a couple of people are using . Now people are very frustrated w with their remote controls industrial designer: marketing: and they for instance they don't even find it project manager: marketing: it's it's often lost somewhere in the in the in your home and nobody knows where it is . marketing: Maybe if we have something where we could ask the remote control please , where are you ? industrial designer: Yeah . of course phone you can always phone your phone project manager: marketing: but you can't phone your your remote control . industrial designer: marketing: And because of the fact that there are so many buttons in these remote controls that nobody use , industrial designer: . marketing: in fact they don't even know how to use them , so most of the the people say they they don't know how to they to use properly their r remote controls . And they are bad for R_S_I_ but I don't remember what is R_S_I_ . nobody has any idea about that ? Well I'll check with my industrial designer: Yeah , it's electromagnetic waves or something kind of maybe effect . marketing: I think it's a technical thing industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: which our industrial designer: because infrared uses some electromagnetic technology , project manager: industrial designer: and those waves have high marketing: So , it seems that it's a lot of people for a concept that we don't know user interface: But twenty six percent , do you know project manager: Or something we don't know . marketing: So anyway user interface: One of us marketing: that's for what the biggest frustration of the user and industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: s functions that may be used by u the user in the current available remote controls and well the tables look very nice to read but what is important is to understand that the power button is not used often because in general you use it only once per session , but it is very relevant . project manager: marketing: Ah now I remember what is R_S_I_ project manager: marketing: it's repetitivity stress injury . marketing: I continue my presentation so yeah , user interface: marketing: channel selection is very important , very often used . It seems that people find teletext teletext relevant , even if I personally never use it but seems that it's average relevant at least , so . project manager: I have been told that we don't consider teletext , that it's out of date now because of internet . marketing: I can tell you that in a l in a scale between one and ten relevant not relevant to relevant people scored a six on this , which is not as these these two one were had I think ten I think . marketing: Not very relevant , so if if there are good reason not to put teletext it's okay but just know that people find it somehow relevant . project manager: marketing: That's for the main functions I think and then we can ask ourself what people don't have that may be useful . One of the thing the trend that you are probably aware of is the possibility the eventual possibility of having speech recognition in your remote control , so you wouldn't have to tap tap in your buttons but just tell your remote control or whatever you need you have what you want . So we've conducted a survey about whether people would like or not to have this kind of functionality in their remote control and as we can see it really depends on the age . marketing: So now it really depends on the kind of targeting wha who are we targeting with this remote control ? industrial designer: 'Cause marketing: I think if we are targeting young people then it's probably something we have to consider . If we are targeting you very old people this is something they really don't know why they this should be so now project manager: And I don't have any conclusion , I didn't have time the meeting was very tight , so that's basically my findings . marketing: Yeah one question , user interface: you are a Market Expert marketing: yeah ? user interface: so marketing: I am . user interface: should we aim at the young people or not ? marketing: I think we should aim at the young people . marketing: In general the the early adopters of a new device are young people , less than more than user interface: Okay , then teletext is used less . project manager: So now I think it's the turn of the the I'm not sure marketing: project manager: Of the technical function , so marketing: So I think it's you , huh ? industrial designer: it's marketing: No ? user interface: That's me . project manager: what effect industrial designer: techni function of marketing: No , user requiremen industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: I have to do working design so project manager: So you're user interface: That's but this but number three , yes . marketing: user interface: However , Project Manager asked me to give you some presentation about technical functions design . , as I'm a more an artist marketing: project manager: user interface: that's gonna be less technical functions but more User Interface and current intentions and everything which is linked with this . marketing: project manager: user interface: 'Cause current remote controls they are never easy enough to use . marketing: project manager: user interface: It's quite a standard one , but it's not from a T_V_ , it's from a much easier device like air conditioning or something . Only buttons we need is on off , volume , channels and maybe some options or something else , and please make a click , compared to this one marketing: industrial designer: It's user interface: which one would you prefer ? I guess this . marketing: I would say the simplest one as long as there are the I find the buttons that I need every time I need a button . marketing: industrial designer: Maybe it can be yeah middle of like , between those two user interface: Yeah , and our method is going to be , provide simple industrial designer: li project manager: Oh sorry . user interface: Our question of the style , we should remember that our company marketing: user interface: puts fashion into electronics and we should never forget about it . user interface: it's very well , it's it's not an easy field to to play , you know ? So be simple . marketing: user interface: For personal preferences I think that to make a baby-proof remote control it got to be a titanium . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: It's a really good style , it going to be look like like this . And all these buttons should be easy to find and to click , 'cause when you watch a movie and you want to change something , you always try to find a good button and click it , but you should do it by touching it and finding it easily just by touch . So Press project manager: user interface: I would propose this concept for design , just few buttons , a screen with a back light which can change colours , titanium industrial designer: . And let us include two nice features into this device , first , power on and off can be made fully automatic . When you go to the sofa , take your control and point it to the T_V_ , project manager: It's off . marketing: And when does it turn off ? user interface: When you don't touch the control but you go out of the For for enough time marketing: Oh so you have a user interface: like you marketing: sensing sensor machine that knows user interface: It's a question to our technical design , our two engineers . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Tech user interface: And another nice feature that I would like to implement is volume control . Suppose you set u you set up some volume and then you move out or you move to the other corner of the room and take your control with you . Like , you want to to change the chair or you want to move to the armchair from the sofa or something , and then the volume changes . user interface: you just control the marketing: According to your distance to and the angle maybe , if you have a stereo system . So marketing: I'm not sure about the screen , wha what is the use usefulness of the screen ? is it a touch screen by the way ? user interface: I think it can be just a menu which can be controlled with a left , right , up , down and enter . user interface: which makes it easier to find , and each can it can respond for your voice , like it can turn on the light for you just to f find it easily , yeah ? project manager: . project manager: I see that you target several s application not only T_V_ but i like we talk about universal remote control . user interface: Let it be universal , so you want to use it for your hi-fi system . S user interface: All the rest , we sh we'll put it into this menu on the screen . Since we were targeting a really soon date for the the the i issuing of this remote control I think we will only concentrate on T_V_ for the moment and then maybe m make it more generalised yeah . marketing: So for instance if I want to go to directly to channel twenty five , how would I do can I do that with this ? user interface: twenty five . marketing: that's not so easy to go just next next next when you have hundreds of channels . marketing: Or is it ? user interface: Basically you use just four or five channels , right ? marketing: Most people user interface: Yeah . user interface: So set up your T_V_ set like channels that you use they're one , two , three and five , and you will never have to go to a twenty fives channel . marketing: In fact in in one remote control that I've seen , instead of doing that d you could just say these are the cha ch channel three , twenty eight , forty eight and sixty four are those that I want to by cycled with my next button . industrial designer: But even we can have some L_C_D_ display , like you can de you can just button the number marketing: Go to channel twenty five . industrial designer: and then it go marketing: One thing is that as I said in my presentation people really do like to z zap . marketing: So even if they are only watching four or five channels , I think they want to zap out of the one hundred channels , user interface: But otherwise like we can put some display on numbers and then they can just press suppose two five they just press two and five marketing: So it would be industrial designer: and then marketing: Okay . industrial designer: if you want to go for a universal then we ought to limit for functions for each of our devices . user interface: Could we carry out some research if we w really need this , like how many people really need to go to channel number twenty five and then to sixty four ? marketing: Well I could could have a look at that maybe . I am an expert in industrial design of all electronic devices and I previously devised many like digital calculators and electronic calculators . Well , as you know the basic function of remote control is sending some message to the the device , like T_V_ or V_C_R_ or D_V_D_ player etcetera . So we will have a p portable device which will send message to the the main device like T_V_ . So we need to have some energy source to do what to do the functions , what we want on this portable device . And usually this so to do these functions we need an interface , which basically some kind of pressing buttons or keys or like moving jack or something like that . And then these messages these key buttons can be transferred into some kind of message and then it will process by the chip and then it will generate some information to the main device . So , basically we need since we are focusing on our interface device remote control mainly the energy source like the battery and then we have user interface like the keypad and you know buttons we want , and then we have some chip , it's mainly digital signal processing chip because since we are I am one doing mostly digital devices we ought to have some kind of processor which take care of all these functions and put it in some digital format . And then we'll have the infrared L_E_D_ source which sends the information to the main device . Then we'll have switch in our main device to do particular operations , and we ought to do different codes for different T_V_s , project manager: industrial designer: so some T_V_s will have different encryption codes for doing s s channel changing and these things . industrial designer: Yeah yeah , because the people don't use one particular brand so project manager: . industrial designer: So we need to check their specifications and do their encryption that's passing information to the T_V_ device . industrial designer: Then , components , so we have the main energy source and then we will have some buttons and then we will have infrared source and then we have some inside some chip in in the device . And since I also want to know feedback from our Marketing Expert and User Interface , project manager: Yeah , I'm sure , because since our User Interface speech recognition and also Marketing Expert for the speech recognition is really handy , project manager: industrial designer: we can have another , like s simple speech recogniser on our D_S_B_ chip . industrial designer: Since we have some kind of energy this is our this normal battery , so this battery , once you s switch on it will take power and we can have some speech recognition and in our g generally small digital signal processing chip so that and we will put the small simple speech recogniser project manager: On industrial designer: and we can also train the speech recogniser for particular user so you just project manager: train it , okay . No , even in you can find even simple mobile device like any mobile brand you can have these voice dialers or these things , yeah . marketing: Think of a all these young people who would love to say that this remote control only works for them , user interface: Okay . project manager: And what about the price of this component ? industrial designer: So maybe we can make it in five Euros and even less than that , project manager: It okay . industrial designer: because we have only very few words like like power , switch on or some like project manager: industrial designer: then we'll have something like this we'll have volume and then we will have s particular channel , so users can listen . marketing: The user will just be able to say please can you pump up the vo pump up the volume project manager: industrial designer: Ye No , yeah , a user can use any kind of sender but they should have this prompt volume and then marketing: Okay . industrial designer: yeah volume and decrease or increase , so we try to only recognise those words marketing: Okay . industrial designer: and and because we can't really say user to say same wording marketing: Couple of words . industrial designer: And then we can have channel they can say , okay I want eight , because we don't know like users have different programmes , they don't really follow same channels strict so we just want channel number , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: we don't want like B_B_C_ or C_N_N_ or something else marketing: Of course it has to be industrial designer: because it will be complicated so we'll have only these three main basic anyway volume is not really speech recognition problem , marketing: Okay . user interface: No you know it's a conceptual question , 'cause now I see th this the picture in front of my eyes like a user taking his remote control and shouting into it , volume up , volume up , project manager: marketing: But then I think you you user interface: and and he's coming you know , he's really annoyed with this , down , up , down . project manager: marketing: First of all I I think this is not functionality that it is going to be instead of using the buttons . industrial designer: Yeah actually we we can have one switch to like switch on , on and off , this processor and This really , suppose like here we have our main chip which controls power , volume and this part and this D_S_P_s . industrial designer: Again , this to have some interaction like suppose people use D_S_P_ then it particularly sends some information to the chip like in some form , like volume and like this key . industrial designer: So it may not be like very expensive , because since we are only focusing on T_V_ remote control marketing: T_V_ . industrial designer: so and we have only few things here project manager: Sho to to train , okay . user interface: Like , if I want to put volume up I like do I take my remote control do like something like marketing: user interface: roll 'em up industrial designer: this point we didn't consider user interface: or roll 'em down . marketing: Very expensive , industrial designer: because it's it's very expensive marketing: no ? industrial designer: because v our target is only like twelve point five Euros project manager: And well , what about the idea of automatic on off on the button , yeah . user interface: why ? industrial designer: and user interface: That's just industrial designer: Yeah , marketing: And volume control . industrial designer: even automatic on off is also a bit problematic , because it different criteria for different people like so suppose people are really they just they don't touch the remote and y you don't know how much time you need to switch on or switch off marketing: So but industrial designer: and marketing: Sh should we target a a user personalised remote control ? So in in a given room there might be more than one remote control . Yeah that can be possible , especially for power settings , so user can say okay , suppose they're watching a tennis match or something then they can say okay after one hour I marketing: . project manager: Wouldn't that make arguments ? industrial designer: They can make marketing: Yeah , of course . project manager: I want user interface: industrial designer: Yeah we can have marketing: That's no problem , we will sell more . project manager: And we can increase this the strength user interface: We got a really good Market Expert . project manager: y you can buy one with user interface: Let's send more , let's sell more . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: I think , okay , we're just on time . project manager: Then we will work again for thirty minutes individual work , and we will meet again for the next meeting , and in this one want to to be more focused on the individual actions the on the components so you will focus on the component concept industrial designer: Yeah yeah . project manager: of course the U_I_D_ Mark will be focused on the user interface concept industrial designer: Mark will project manager: and our m Market Expert Sammy Benjo on the trend watching . And we have maybe we have to we say , only for T_V_ , not teletext ? marketing: project manager: I think automatic on off control it's not possible . user interface: should it be equipped with the , with speakers ? marketing: Speakers in the remote cont user interface: Like , you want to find it , you shout marketing: Oh yeah . project manager: yeah user interface: control , project manager: that's user interface: and it answers is I'm here ? Or marketing: It just beeps . project manager: yeah ? Think industrial designer: Yeah , especially the power , it really consumes project manager: -huh . industrial designer: because it should be all the time on and project manager: And marketing: Well I I heard of devices where you just whistle them and and they project manager: And it's answered . industrial designer: But it's a good feature I guess yeah we need to think about more how to incorporate it . user interface: Just don't interfere with other devices like 'cause like all these people do that their lights are turning on with clapping . marketing: Oh that's e that already exists user interface: Yeah , I got it at my home , like . Good project manager: So , marketing: we're done ? project manager: yeah , industrial designer: Yeah <doc-sep>And the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: Well , I think we should set the the points to to drive the project and user interface: . B did you send us an email about this ? project manager: not yet , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: but if you want user interface: Yeah , we we received an email about this d designs . project manager: Do you want do you want me to send you a mail ? industrial designer: user interface: Ah it's Okay . marketing: I think it's for your guys to how to design it all the aspects so you need that information . user interface: 'Kay , we can project manager: So there are so we have three user interface: So there are three kinds of designs , that's all . project manager: So , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? Any any volunteer ? industrial designer: I think our responsibilities will be assigned when we in our mail we received from the account manager . user interface: Are you using the you are doing the in industrial designer: Yeah I I'm I'm Well , maybe we have okay so I industrial design . It was a little confusion about my project manager: user interface: Ah industrial designer: but it's alright . industrial designer: Well , I think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done project manager: industrial designer: and what are your ideas about the project manager: About the design or Maybe we'll discuss this later , no ? industrial designer: Well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for T_V_ distribution I guess . industrial designer: Yeah , I dunno I project manager: And of course it should not be very costly . industrial designer: Well I I think that Norman and I would think about the technical points and we should discuss it in the next meeting , or user interface: Need to collect information . , what is most important in a in a remote control ? What is the most important function aspect ? . project manager: You won't user interface: Or or you can say for example , I want to list all the programme tonight . Y you know , instead of remote control it's doing the some searching for you , so you don't have to look for the channel you want . project manager: I I think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly . user interface: No , because no , project manager: S user interface: it's not very a lot . industrial designer: I I think if you want t to choose from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use w I dunno marketing: I'm a okay . marketing: the main function of remote control is to have something in the hand project manager: In the hand . marketing: If we are going to add a speech interface , I'm not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog user interface: Yeah . marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that I think the T_V_ itself could have it . industrial designer: marketing: we have some or something , different technology but project manager: This is it's user interface: Yeah , yeah . But th the main idea I wanted to s I wanted to say is that there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch T_V_ channel , there's a option you can choose , either T_V_ channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme . industrial designer: Yeah , yeah it's it's a good idea it's a good idea project manager: industrial designer: but I I think that technically it would be a little bit more tricky to to achieve this than just to user interface: No . They they are they are they are available in X_M_L_ format or whatever the format . user interface: And then there's there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . So I just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so you don't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons . industrial designer: Well I I I I think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to navigate through the Well channel programme or contents or in an easy way , so project manager: This is good idea . Yeah , so you don't have to display here , just display on the T_V_ screen , right ? industrial designer: Yeah in the dis display on the T_V_ screen user interface: Good idea . industrial designer: and just with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f user interface: I think I think that will be revol revolutionary . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Because all the T_V_ the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . So I think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff user interface: Okay . project manager: So we have five minutes to user interface: Ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board . project manager: Ah you can y you can you can use it if you so , can we industrial designer: user interface: Five minutes . marketing: And another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of user interface: Okay . marketing: So , if you're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark some dark scene , the lights adapt themself . industrial designer: Oh right so user interface: Okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: Be before before writing you can sit and that says what we what we said user interface: . So so the most functional des the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . The user can choose w which one they want , right ? industrial designer: Yeah , by content or by channel , user interface: By content or by channel . user interface: Okay , so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content . industrial designer: I think i it's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so user interface: Okay . And industrial designer: I think that's the the things to do user interface: The main thing . user interface: So we are we'll discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get the funct this is the functional designer ? That's the first aspect . project manager: So maybe we'll meet in maybe five minutes ? And we'll discuss the other other aspects <doc-sep>project manager: Yeah on your computer , or the industrial designer: But where ? project manager: What's the name ? industrial designer: project manager: What's the name of it ? industrial designer: It was about the working of the remote control . I just had an half an hour j to study it user interface: industrial designer: and I don't get it . industrial designer: First I will tell you something about the findings , what I discovered about the remote control . then I'll have some kind of map , and it's the top of the remote control . The remote control is a very difficult thing to to explain to just all of you wh who haven't seen a remote control inside . there's a lot of plastic on it , marketing: industrial designer: because its not so expensive . And there are a lot of wires , which connect the components in it , the battery , and there are switches and things like that . but we can also use it a bleep like something , when the battery's empty , then there is a bleep . And also the bleep , when what I told you about when you lost it , and you push a button , and then you hear bleep bleep , and we will find it . Why ? industrial designer: If we w if we use only just one small pen-light , then it will be cheaper than when we use two . When you use it on the television , you've you need the television , wh which can use it . But I think this our remote control is for the televisions we we sell in our company ? project manager: Okay . industrial designer: Or is it also for other company for other televisions ? project manager: I think we have to use it also on other televisions though . And on the other tele televisions , you can also use it , but then we won't use the project manager: Yeah but I don't I think it They are two different things though . But , to have a trendy remote control , we can also make something like the Nokia mobile phones . marketing: Will this will this add to the cost ? industrial designer: then it won't be will have just one cover on the original one . D does it make it more difficult to design ? industrial designer: I think it will be a little more difficult , but not too much . project manager: industrial designer: Yeah but then we'll have to to just put five covers on it , and see if it works . project manager: Yeah but are their profits bigger than their cost ? industrial designer: a p a a cover made in in China , it it won't be I guess so expensive I think . I don't think When you have a remote control , do you change the cover ? Would you change the cover ? industrial designer: Maybe . industrial designer: But maybe I think trendy people or like children where you can paint on it , and the the children think , oh this is my remote control , I made a picture on it . And the other people ? What do you think about it ? marketing: user interface: Yeah it's a good idea . But If if it Yeah , I don't I'm not sure if it will make profit enough to industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: user interface: I thought the the the technical function design was to for a remote control to to to have some influence on the T_V_ set . And and and and well basic operations like on and off , and switching channels , and and maybe teletext or something like that . But shall we make a basic remote control , just swapping channels and volume and power button and well nothing much more . any ideas about that ? Basic or multifunctional ? project manager: We'll got back on that later . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: So So I'm gonna have a presentation about the market , about yeah what people think . among them design , d d how d did they like the use of it , what frustrations they had while using remote controls . Which buttons find users very important and which which not ? And how much would they use them ? Well the most used button is the channel selection . not important they found the audio , that's not the volume but specific the the pitch , or the left or right . And to come back on the the swapping things , I don't think , I I think the younger will be most interest in it . If you have an L_C_D_ on the remote control , what would you think of it . Now if we look back at this graph , we can see that among the first group is about sixty percent . of course n saying we aim at the young group doesn't say that old people won't buy it . So if you make a remote control that is very easy to use , that's especially aimed at this group , even the young group will also be more interested . So you don't have to have a lot of audio options , or screen options to change the brightness . One thing I did not say I think , is that a lot of users also said then I would buy a good looking remote control if there will be one . industrial designer: If we aim for the younger people , and there will be a lot of features like L_C_D_ or the the the speech f recognising , the cost will be a lot of h a lot higher . user interface: And I don't I don't think twenty five Euros for a remote is really cheap or something . not everyone who is looking T_V_ can go to internet when they want to see the latest news . marketing: project manager: So what controls do we need ? Who first ? user interface: Well a power button ? marketing: project manager: Okay . Do we make a menu ? project manager: Menu ? yes the n newer televisions ha do have menus . project manager: And Hello ? That's ch marketing: I think it will be q quite easy to use , to have four arrows . And if you press the menu button you get into the menu , and you can use the same buttons . project manager: On the L_C_D_ screen , you mean ? marketing: well yeah that depends on if you have the menu on the T_V_ . project manager: Think it's better to have it on the remote control , 'cause it it has to work on all televisions . But well if you aim at the younger market , a as they as s as we seen in the usability lab , they will buy a nice looking remote control . So if we have a L_C_D_ sh screen , and not too many buttons , I think that will incre even when it's a bit more cost , it will still sell . industrial designer: And we don't yet have to decide what the remote control would look like ? Or project manager: No that's for the next phase

The User Interface team proposed a function where users could choose TV channels or program content instead of just selecting channels, making the remote control more powerful. This technology is already available on some websites. They also suggested expanding the remote control's capabilities to influence other devices like radios or video recorders, but the team was undecided on whether the remote should be basic or multifunctional. They agreed to revisit this decision later. To address the issue of losing the remote, User Interface recommended designing a power cradle for the controller, eliminating the need for batteries and ensuring that users always knew where the remote was. However, the cost implications of this idea needed further investigation. The User Interface designer proposed a screen with a backlight that could change colors, consolidating all options into this screen to minimize the number of buttons and enhance user-friendliness. They also recommended using titanium as the material for its durability and child-proof qualities. Additionally, the designer suggested making the power and volume controls fully automatic.

Summarize User Interface's main ideas and recommendations regarding the functional and technical design of the interface.

project manager: and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first marketing: No y you do the minutes first , or ? project manager: What ? marketing: No ? project manager: I I think I will let our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan . The second concept is a fancy controller , so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g industrial designer: . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Yeah , it's very , you know project manager: It's very big , user interface: if you're project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . user interface: so maybe we should use technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and gesture recognition . project manager: I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition , user interface: Yeah . project manager: but as the expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ? user interface: Yeah , so project manager: Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ? user interface: Y marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ? user interface: I think some time it's very convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button . user interface: For example , if you cannot find your controller , you can just just just speak something such as , yeah , one two . project manager: I industrial designer: Oh yeah , that's a good that's a good point , so . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah but how how is how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ? project manager: Broken arm ? user interface: For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very marketing: Okay . project manager: Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: If you have one brother and one sister marketing: Yeah project manager: and they want to watch their favourite T_V_ programme , marketing: Yeah , but the project manager: so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time , industrial designer: Yeah but Yeah user interface: Yeah , it's very interesting . industrial designer: but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , marketing: I don't think it project manager: but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you . marketing: Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff . Even you h you have the controller , I can I can say channel three , industrial designer: It's it's marketing: No . user interface: so it's c come to channel three , marketing: No , but this is disadvant disadvantage . user interface: I don't have to project manager: Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage . industrial designer: And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to project manager: Yeah , but one other question . marketing: if you if if you use the basic user interface: No no we just have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field . project manager: So you think it won't cost an Not a lot for us ? Or ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's because this technology is for limited wor or limited wor lexical recognition , it's very project manager: Yeah , but user interface: it's yeah . It's marketing: But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . industrial designer: Well y y you have also the language problem , user interface: No it's Even for the f because the the vocabulary the industrial designer: you know when you project manager: project manager: Yeah , but there is one problem that Baba talked about is the international industrial designer: Yeah . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Yeah , the key , the key the key of our the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some adaptation marketing: Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or industrial designer: Yeah but you know . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . industrial designer: It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe project manager: okay . user interface: Yeah , project manager: And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ? user interface: it's industrial designer: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: Yeah , but how will you user interface: So industrial designer: Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one . industrial designer: because the for example for Se user interface: Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to industrial designer: Oh really ? That's project manager: Oh . marketing: but then w Yeah , industrial designer: Comple user interface: No , it's not so complex . marketing: we have to take care of the twelve Euros project manager: And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ? marketing: problem . project manager: And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ? user interface: No no no it's not I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , but we're marketing: No , but then it's it's like this project manager: here it's an object . project manager: Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . user interface: Yeah yeah just you just put the controller here , then you industrial designer: I if you say one , he switch to channel , user interface: you use your command project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: No no it's n y if you lose it industrial designer: So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one . project manager: Okay you so you can build a kind of black box industrial designer: Devic project manager: and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice . Or is it do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ? user interface: think it we should give the flexibility to the user and we think marketing: Okay , so you project manager: Yeah , user interface: yeah . user interface: No , project manager: And maybe it will be quite user interface: that's quite inter quite attractive . industrial designer: But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so although y y user interface: Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . marketing: What ? project manager: Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ? marketing: If if , I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition . industrial designer: Yeah , but marketing: But if if if it like doubles industrial designer: I think he need a control that is very reliable , marketing: no one would would be interested . project manager: So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . user interface: project manager: Just want to have something controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ? user interface: Yeah but if if you stick to stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ? industrial designer: Yeah . No , user interface: Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that marketing: industrial designer: It's not really the we marketing: Y industrial designer: we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so or something like that . But I think a user need user interface: Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function , marketing: No , user interface: but marketing: but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something , industrial designer: Don't have a the the Yeah user interface: Okay . user interface: But it's not the only the problem only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ . industrial designer: Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if marketing: Cause for example yeah . user interface: Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller , marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , but we want so user interface: but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition . user interface: the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our from other products . project manager: Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone . industrial designer: And for all the person of the family maybe , user interface: Yeah , project manager: You don't need to tune it . user interface: Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ? project manager: Yeah , why not ? If it's marketing: for example the goo y industrial designer: Because you have new marketing: you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller . marketing: I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . marketing: so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot . marketing: thi this , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition user interface: The then nn marketing: or user interface: no . marketing: if he has something that works fine and is really fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use . user interface: But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller . marketing: See user interface: That's the same marketing: That's the problem , user interface: yeah . , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever . marketing: But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product user interface: Yeah . project manager: Two ? industrial designer: Yeah , participant two project manager: Working ? industrial designer: Yeah , working design , user interface: industrial designer: so . marketing: industrial designer: So I think project manager: I can industrial designer: Can you go to the next one ? I it's not this one . industrial designer: It's oth the oth so I marketing: industrial designer: It's the working design . project manager: It's okay industrial designer: So this yeah so this is the described use project manager: industrial designer: What ? Are you inst project manager: I think there's something wrong with your user interface: It did didn't r receive it . project manager: It seems that we have a problem with the marketing: I dunno if you remember what you had to say or industrial designer: I can say it to you without . project manager: Yeah , so user interface: Yeah , maybe we can first come to project manager: No , I think it will be more interesting to start with user interface: to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides , marketing: I think it's more interesting what he says , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: exac marketing: project manager: You will had s some more information in industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with user interface: project manager: Okay , never mind . industrial designer: so It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r user interface: Okay . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside user interface: Okay . So I in fact the the f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use , project manager: industrial designer: so will it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . industrial designer: so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night , project manager: industrial designer: And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example d solar energy alimentation user interface: -huh . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come user interface: industrial designer: and so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example . project manager: Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers industrial designer: Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more , industrial designer: project manager: no ? industrial designer: Alrigh In fact , having them both will if we want to have battery , regular battery and and the solar energy battery it could be it'll it will add a little bit of the price , project manager: So . project manager: And what tha what about the materials ? industrial designer: And the materials , it depends for example you if you have a wooden material it can be more the plastic material is more common project manager: Impersonal , industrial designer: it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class , project manager: Yeah . marketing: Special for industrial designer: or you know , you can have some project manager: Yeah , and i if you we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood . industrial designer: Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood user interface: industrial designer: And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module . project manager: Yeah , we want something easy to use and so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough . project manager: And you think that we will be industrial designer: Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: project manager: And what about the buttons ? industrial designer: I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know lighted buttons because , you know , it's I don't know yeah , in the dark , it's fashion project manager: No it's fashion , yeah . industrial designer: and it's related to how beautiful it is or if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right . industrial designer: I think a touch screen will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so . , I think so , just Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next . project manager: marketing: So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and i i it sounds good technically user interface: . marketing: but it's it's not what they want and So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on . Wha what we really see this year is that everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables , industrial designer: Ah yes . marketing: okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing . And then if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . marketing: So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion from Milan and Paris industrial designer: And fruit and vegetables yeah . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch , industrial designer: Spongy 'Kay . industrial designer: Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ? marketing: Yeah thi this is this would be like industrial designer: Pla S marketing: plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like industrial designer: Very stuff Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . marketing: Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion . So , as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and with battery would be something interesting , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be enough to have something working well . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: No wood but Plastic ? marketing: Maybe not no wood , but ma maybe not the part you touching you know . industrial designer: Would some user interface: Pla project manager: Maybe you industrial designer: I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . marketing: But still y project manager: Th The feeling is natural , industrial designer: Yeah , it's natural marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol marketing: Yeah , it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view . marketing: But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: and what about the user interface concept ? industrial designer: Google and project manager: Google and fancy ? industrial designer: and fancy , f how about the the voice ? And project manager: Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this . industrial designer: maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested user interface: yes . industrial designer: But and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually , project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: so . industrial designer: But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so . project manager: So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller , marketing: I dunno . project manager: maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood . project manager: Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add . And pf what can we think a supplement to marketing: What interface ? project manager: Yeah , for the interface something added value . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of project manager: With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes so we'll you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the simple vocal commands recognition . project manager: you will have to work more , Baba , on the spongy way to to add spongy touch to the buttons industrial designer: expensive buttons Yeah , to make some new project manager: and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control . project manager: And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and the colour of the the society will be really it will be seen in the remote control . project manager: So you will have Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us modelling a cl a clay remote control , user interface: Yeah . Yep project manager: And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: Okay ? So we are here for the functional design meeting so first I will show the agenda so we will I will take notes during this meeting so I will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then each of you will lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . Then we will take the decision on on the remote control needed functions and then I will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . So who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: F do you want to start ? user interface: Make a start yeah . project manager: You have PowerPoint ? user interface: Should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: Ah yeah maybe there . industrial designer: With the the whiteboard ? project manager: If you remember yeah user interface: Yeah . So most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and T_V_ and stuff like that . user interface: And but other people want th also remotes for controlling and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , so there's a project I think called X_ house or something like that that does that , you can integrate your remote with computers stuff . and th the buttons part would be a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . user interface: Yeah ? industrial designer: What do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: Like a video tape goes forward , backwards , fast and stuff yeah . project manager: and there's a fourth one no ? user interface: ? project manager: So the better now for special navigation ? user interface: Yeah . For special navigation for example you might have a T_V_ in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: Okay . user interface: So if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that project manager: Okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything generic but there are a lot of remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . We could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: Okay . Okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: . marketing: okay ? And here I have the results so you can see that seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . Eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it's not good . project manager: We can just keep doing that ? marketing: So it's not in theory but I I can I can say yeah . marketing: and fifty per cents of users say they only use ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . marketing: So all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have a use a real use project manager: Okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: Okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: But what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: Sorry ? user interface: What kind of task was it ? It was a T_V_ ? marketing: Yeah . Yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a T_V_ remote control according to new requirements I received from the management user interface: Huh . marketing: So there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said they lost often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: Yeah . marketing: and lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . marketing: And remote controls are bad for project manager: What is her other side ? marketing: R_S_I_ user interface: Other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: I dunno . industrial designer: marketing: Okay before that I I have some some some thing to say before project manager: Yeah . marketing: So it's better to put something very easy to set and and project manager: Yeah . marketing: and we asked this question if they prefer an L_C_D_ screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: Yeah . So you know that project manager: marketing: for the younger it's very important project manager: To have L_C_D_ and voice . And and the others is not so important but we know that people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot T_V_ and who who wh can use a lot this . project manager: Moreover th maybe those like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: . So as we say before , I think a remote control lightening in the dark it's it's a good thing . marketing: e easy to use a way to find it easily in the room and resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: project manager: Okay these are the user requi marketing: I dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: I'm just thinking of some thing . industrial designer: We want to have a no , I don't know if this is a good idea . project manager: Cos it would be costly and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . Because I received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should focus on T_V_ more where it seems that the market is more important . What's your opinion ? user interface: I have I've no idea I should know a bit more about how fast we can design it . marketing: user interface: I don't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: But basically yeah maybe I can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: Okay . project manager: Maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: If fact project manager: I don't know . project manager: industrial designer: Okay so I'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . We just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , I'm going project manager: Okay . Let's say that something like that , which could be a L_C_D_ let's say or an array of push button , something like that . So I say U_C_ and I feed that to L_E_D_ which is infrared which is a an infrared component . industrial designer: Y it's a it's this just a chip which does all the numerical project manager: Computation . We just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . we just have to define the processing power that we need especially if we want to do some speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: This will think this will take more time to develop also . project manager: To have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: No no no no , project manager: Standard button one . project manager: So do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: Ten years . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: I would say about eight months to have the first results . project manager: Even if we have a L_C_D_ display ? industrial designer: Yeah even . So who think it would be good to go for like speech recognition ? user interface: But we don't have time to market . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we shouldn't we shouldn't go up to twelve point five Euro per unit marketing: project manager: Euros . user interface: How muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . How much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: Usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . project manager: Because we are user interface: So you have any idea for a powerful one that has good enough for do speech recognition . Maybe we can we can look at the new requirement I receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . industrial designer: I just had a question do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: Yeah I I will continue . industrial designer: you say that I don't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that's it's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . industrial designer: Do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? To to marketing: Oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: Would j yeah w I I think they they say that it's difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it's it's okay . industrial designer: But yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? You say that I want , I have six button user interface: Mh A a lot of people are if you have the L_C_D_ screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: Yeah . I think the young people are th are marketing: user interface: Christine here said you have a industrial designer: Yeah . Maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . user interface: And there are another thing is that if we make something that's simple and easy to use that's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . user interface: Otherwise , if it's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: But also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . project manager: So we may just make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: Yeah . project manager: and maybe also some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . project manager: These these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to find when lost it will add a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . So we don't have to so this this is is in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we don't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: But teletext is just one button . project manager: Yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . So well user interface: So will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: Yeah . So anyway we don't have to include this feature because it's it's not used any more by users , user interface: So . If if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . Also so as as I told before it would be better if it's only for the T_V_ because we want to be quick on on the market . And then also we have to make very clear that this this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that they identify it as one of our product . marketing: project manager: So before finishing we can define what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . project manager: So do you so so from from the the Marketing Expert I think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so I think we have to do something very simple and I think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: user interface: Well if it is going to be just a T_V_ remote control it is going to be very simple . So few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: Well if it's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that I can see project manager: Yeah . project manager: Maybe switch T_V_ on and off user interface: industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: And that's all ? industrial designer: I know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . user interface: industrial designer: I know tha I discovered that when I did a quick look , they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: It's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is the previous channel which has come back . So we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and just the the traditional on off button . I I talk about that , yeah ? user interface: How should they how should we implement that ? Because could be numerical only or could be also incremental . This is incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . It's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . So if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: Maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: Maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: I dunno bec because if you have the user interface: Well if it's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you cannot you cannot cannot work with just memory being incremental . Because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it's not it isn't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . project manager: Maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: Yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: Yeah . user interface: Hey I just thought this thing industrial designer: You user interface: there is a you know there is are some with a wheel like this . project manager: So have a wheel for incremental , have the digits on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: project manager: and yeah I think this is the basi user interface: On the lower side I think it you have to turn it . industrial designer: Or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say to project manager: No , a wheel is better . user interface: So you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . project manager: Well also we have to decide so it should be lightening in the dark I think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 'S quite it's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . Even if i L_E_D_ or a if if it's the L_C_D_ feature industrial designer: A blue a blue L_E_D_ and we sell that . project manager: and do we put an L_C_D_ display ? marketing: user interface: Yeah . If you do not multi function then there is no p point in having L_C_D_ . project manager: And so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: Well if it's going to delay yeah industrial designer: Okay . Because a user could say C_N_N_ for example and it would go C_N_N_ . project manager: and Maybe we can just industrial designer: Ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: Okay . So I I will I will so I we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break here are the individual action you are required to do industrial designer: project manager: but you will be recalled to the actions by email I think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . project manager: and I I will make a summary of that meeting that I will put in the shared folder you can't see industrial designer: Okay . marketing: project manager: and and then you will you will be able to to see what has been has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . user interface: What is the folder that you put yours in ? And did it it did work ? marketing: No . Okay ? user interface: Okay what is your email ? project manager: So yeah I I'm it's in the first email so I'm participant one at AMI user interface: At participant one <doc-sep>So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and industrial designer: Industrial Design . project manager: And after that we will have the new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . project manager: No , industrial designer: Three three , it's three project manager: I'm participant one . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our remote T_V_ control . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . So how can we design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? , let's move to next slide . As we know Google it's a very successful because his powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . project manager: user interface: So my job is to design a Google T_V_ controller which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So industrial designer: user interface: That's the end of the talk the end of the presentation . user interface: With sophisticated functions , project manager: So powerful , user interface: but with very yeah powerful . marketing: So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both , industrial designer: To merge the two system huh . marketing: industrial designer: But But this is user interface: But if we have very very good user interface marketing: Yeah , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah you maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are or almost the same , so the sign . project manager: Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ? industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same . industrial designer: So you have to The sh the user there for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that So . project manager: Go on , go back and industrial designer: Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright . marketing: industrial designer: It you project manager: So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use . marketing: industrial designer: The rationale must be design , or project manager: So , Baba is the the Industrial Designer . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the project manager: industrial designer: how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . industrial designer: but I propose a nifra infrared base you know , so so for me I think that it is better it's bet it's better to control T_V_ project manager: marketing: industrial designer: so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to marketing: True . project manager: So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ? industrial designer: I think it's cheaper than laser , so . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen , marketing: What the cost is ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , I think for the cost we want for the cost we want it's better to have Let's see . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here project manager: You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so . project manager: What is this ? industrial designer: This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device . industrial designer: So and the next slide , it is the last one it's So it's I think it should be wire wireless re remote con Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless . industrial designer: Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ? marketing: What's the average price of this technology then ? industrial designer: Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the user interface: So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire with remote control ? industrial designer: You'd yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . project manager: So you think that a cable between the remote control and the T_V_ won't be a good idea . project manager: No it wou maybe it will be cheaper I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu marketing: But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , user interface: Wireless remote control . project manager: but marketing: I don't think well , yeah , I don't think he would , industrial designer: Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know , project manager: marketing: but in a sense industrial designer: sometime I want to have wire because you know . project manager: Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ? industrial designer: project manager: I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ? industrial designer: I don't think it will be too much . industrial designer: Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's I think that you know you can always you know project manager: Okay . industrial designer: I think wha wha with the wire it's cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not . marketing: Now the project manager: So industrial designer: Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , so it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question . project manager: I think it's would be easier to have a link between the remote control and the television , marketing: Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else . We had one hundred subjects , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , and see what was okay or not for them . actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls ugly , okay , so that's project manager: You mean the loo the look , the outside ? industrial designer: The look , how it look like . So this is where we could have yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more . And then yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . And users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . project manager: marketing: So this is from the experiments we've done , project manager: marketing: so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users . project manager: What is R_S_I_ ? marketing: R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same doing the same movement several times , then you get injured . marketing: Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . marketing: And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of functions , but less buttons , user interface: Functions . And just to have an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ? user interface: But I'm not sure project manager: Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know . project manager: I think the marketing: It's user interface: No you you can have a switch menu , so you can project manager: Yeah , but it has to be intuitive . Then for you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions . Okay , user interface: Then you you put the switch button , project manager: but user interface: then it switch to another category of functions . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your recorder . industrial designer: With a user interface: So there's a different functions , but i if you you there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . project manager: Yeah , but user interface: But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny look fancy , not funny . marketing: industrial designer: This is a question that should be asked to the If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people . user interface: marketing: Yeah , this is something we sh user interface: Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uniform colourful is fancy for some for other peoples , so . industrial designer: I think the solution is to have many colours of you know instead of having one grey standard project manager: Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control . user interface: Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control , industrial designer: Yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: And also f user interface: Maybe we can have di di we can have several options , marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases , marketing: Yeah , user interface: project manager: and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot . project manager: And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ . project manager: So I think you have quite lot of points to to think about industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ? marketing: Yeah , it's done , just yeah . If we would if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it . project manager: So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's user interface: project manager: It's is marketing: Lame , or project manager: No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext . project manager: So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control , industrial designer: Yep . project manager: and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not you won't be you won't had buttons to just to manipulate yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that . project manager: It's marketing: - project manager: because if we want to to do remote control user interface: . project manager: which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . project manager: So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy . project manager: And also we want the image of the real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan . project manager: that's if you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product . project manager: So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the user interface: Okay . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so . project manager: industrial designer: This is marketing: I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway . project manager: but mayb industrial designer: Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web . user interface: A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ . industrial designer: It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . industrial designer: the global usage , user interface: Global , industrial designer: so if people don't have the technology . project manager: So everybody is okay with the new requirements ? user interface: So I I so As as for the colour , what what do you think ? project manager: I think it has to be yellow . user interface: Yellow ? T_V_ remote control ? marketing: Min project manager: Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised . industrial designer: I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Doesn't need to be completely yellow , project manager: So you have to user interface: Okay . It's okay ? marketing: Regarding the first line , what So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext . Y you You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put pon marketing: Industrial Designer . project manager: And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder <doc-sep>project manager: Hello , this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . project manager: the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . So , we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so basically I just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we've had from looking at some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , we've discovered that this year fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . marketing: so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that's really fancy , has lots of technolog tech technology in it . user interface: marketing: And that it's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the Real Reaction company . marketing: So fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: Okay . So I am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I think I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it later . generally , generally this remote control should be should be something , in my opinion , the first feature is just to be easy to use . So , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position inside the remote control . And s I can conclude like this , that we shouldn't need to learn how to use it . It should be we shouldn't need to es open a a t book and start reading and learning how to use this this remote control . So what I found out that as I said I think it's better to put more frequent ke buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . user interface: And maybe just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . And also f m because because customers doesn't like to buy lots of battery , it should not consume lots of energy . And my personal p preference is , as I said , just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used that much like settings button , like mobile phone . Usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put volume change or s ch can channel change buttons in the remote control . And if the user needed to do some more complex task he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . And also I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . For example , a sliding or rolling d stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with thumb . And I dunno but I think usage of a speech recogn r recogniser can be good . I know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . And I think it's good because it's something new and usually young people like something new . industrial designer: okay , so good news from me for me from Hamed , but bad news from Bob obviously , because spongy design , I don't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: Okay , so could you please , Fabien , open it . I Most of the things I have to write myself on the board , but project manager: This one , yeah . This this is just one thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just I just found this , that our company developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I'll just marketing: Inch . industrial designer: Yeah , seven seven inch T_ T_F_T_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . industrial designer: Okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . first thing is this will be the overall shape , no I'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can And if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which I found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can supply everything . I was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it's okay to use just two batteries and solar cells , so . the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . It depends where you put your screen , because the screen is seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . Then the graphical card for the T_F_T_ and the third unit is the I_R_ . The good news is that we can we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . So the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the T_F_T_ which is seven inches . I have to check what I wanted to from my point of view I don't care about the about the material used for the overall des ov all the device . project manager: Can you fit any for example a T_F_T_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? For example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , I can I can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: A all these things in in in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . Maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it's around the T_F_T_ then it's good , because it's just keeps it safe , project manager: Okay . user interface: Well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: This seven inch T_F_T_ screen , industrial designer: Yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: Well , seven to seven inches . industrial designer: marketing: have we decided that we're gonna use this T_F_T_ screen ? project manager: No , I don't think it's seven by seven , industrial designer: Yeah but project manager: I think it's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: To be honest , I was project manager: Usually when they say seven inch I think it's the diagonal . industrial designer: Yeah , honestly speaking I was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . industrial designer: So marketing: industrial designer: Yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . marketing: So , what's the size of the device ? industrial designer: Ah well this is like this is almost nothing . marketing: Even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: Yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: Is it Can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: Because if it's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: A sm industrial designer: marketing: But is something that's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: W I I think so . I if the roller buttons are on the side you don't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow Well , that's that's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: So maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . , so I think we have a lot We have to take decision today , so I think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . first I think energy it's a key problem because it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . Because can we have L_C_D_ and speech recognition with battery , and it's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: Not J just a point to the energy th things . If we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it's okay for L_ speech recognition and L_C_D_ , project manager: Okay . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? Are are what Maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: Yeah I was thinking just common A_A_ cells . marketing: So if we use s solar cells , where is the sun if someone's watching T_V_ inside ? industrial designer: S d doesn't need to be sun . industrial designer: Yeah well I I suppose that I suppose that that this remote control won't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . project manager: At least when there is T_V_ you can get light from the T_V_ . industrial designer: Ah it's a it's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: At least it's new and maybe technology New technology . industrial designer: Yeah , that's why I wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . user interface: project manager: So I think before talking about the other thing , it's important thing it's the case . industrial designer: project manager: what what are gonna be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . For example for the for the L_C_D_ , if we choose to have a small device , we cannot use this a such a a a screen . Well what what would you guess as a shape ? Or what what would be the shape ? user interface: . And I prefer to is it shouldn't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . You can take some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it's it's designed for your f taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . So seven not seven but let's say five by ten it's I think it's that's my opinion . industrial designer: Yeah , I think it's feasib Well one How could we do it ? We could put the board next to , well , under the L_C_D_ and for example make the L_C_D_ be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . industrial designer: Like holding something , and the L_C_D_ to be just on top of it , you know somehow . I've I s I think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller L_C_D_ , if it's possible . industrial designer: Okay , so five to ten , I I think it's it's feasible . user interface: but I don't want to now invent something new , because we didn't discuss about it . So using some L_C_D_s we can touch , so we can remove keys and just having , I dunno the name , L_C_D_ responding to fingers . user interface: So But for now if we don't want to use such kind of screens I I think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: Yeah . user interface: because project manager: The problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we cannot do something very new . user interface: project manager: So let's go for a small L_C_D_ . marketing: So industrial designer: Okay , so Yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: A smaller s project manager: Yeah okay . something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? My first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , I thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: Seven to ten banana . marketing: Well it's it's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . user interface: marketing: what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: But it's just an idea . I dunno what you think about , but marketing: Do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Well , but If it's If it If the banana is big enough . Well user interface: project manager: Yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: I think this is not good . project manager: The screen has to be square ? Or it can be like a a shape , quite , with curves . industrial designer: But if it's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . But if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . I think that's more important than saving a bit of money on on the T_F_T_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit fatter than than the c c common one . Yeah , it should remember banana , but it's not doesn't have to b to be really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . project manager: So we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: Well it we'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: Okay . project manager: So , the last point we decided it's infra-red , I guess . You have other thing to add to this point , or no ? So , about the user interface , so we are going to use L_C_D_ . You talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: Like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: Yeah , peeling of the banana . marketing: industrial designer: First layer obviously spo Yeah , project manager: So industrial designer: w It's it's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah I think . project manager: Is it is it possible to do that ? It would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: project manager: Like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: I think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it's easy to make that , project manager: Yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: user interface: Yeah , some Something like a plastic cover covering some interface , U_S_B_ interface as in the in digital camera . You open a plastic cover and you see some U_S_B_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . So keys can be buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and when and when you open this cover it's like peeling a banana . project manager: Yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: Well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah it's a lic like a plastic cover , so . industrial designer: So I think if it's so then it's cool ? project manager: So , I dunno what you think , Bob , but it would be great for users I think , and very good for marketing . maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , I dunno how to do that technically , or . Yeah or a Yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover sticking to the to the all the stuff like with magnetic p magnetic magnetic materials in the border , so it's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . So you you can be sure that it will not be open while you're while while you are commonly using buttons on the banana . industrial designer: Well since since the since the things like the like the screen and how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we cannot b So we need that the that the peeling I dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . So , if if the solar cell won't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . So you're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: It is possible , but , well if it marketing: And a and a banana . industrial designer: I dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: And something we forgot , maybe , about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: Yes , I think . project manager: So we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: . marketing: user interface: project manager: And , yeah , I I think you should work together , s you Hamed and Peter , to work in a in a first prototype , and more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together <doc-sep> we will start with the Manager Expert wi who will talk about user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: Okay , so basically I'm gonna present some findings of a study we conducted into what users want in this remote control . Oh that's okay , it's jus marketing: so first of all we what we did is we conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . we put them in a in our usability laboratory and got them to , you know , play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they'd done that , to complete a questionnaire to tell us what they like and what they don't like in remote controls . So basically the major things we found out was that basically users don't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they'd used in the past were ugly . they they didn't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they're watching T_V_ . and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that are on remote controls . so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . And from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . and you can see they're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , while the user's watching T_V_ . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , all the other , all the other buttons , such as ch audio and picture selection configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . we also asked users which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . And basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that w the audio and picture settings were very weren't very important to them , and they used them very infrequently a as well . And fifty percent of the users said that what frustrates them is losing the remote control somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . they also said that it it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there's many buttons and it's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and cause u repetitive strain injury . We also asked some users about some specific features that they'd like to see in the on the remote control . In particular , do they want an L_C_D_ d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: basically our findings are that amongst a younger age groups the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . industrial designer: marketing: for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . Whereas the the trend was as users as users became older and older they were less likely to want these sort of features in a in a remote control . and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , I think we're focusing on the younger younger target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: So , maybe now we can talk about a user interface and about the technical function of this device . So Pet Peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: Well , okay , yeah . marketing: Yeah , it's true , but , you know , they're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it's industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: And our production cost of twelve fifty Euros per per unit is fairly high I think , user interface: industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: At least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . Okay , first what is a remote control ? Simply it's a device , as you know , for , for sending some commands by some waves to another device to to tell different commands with this device . And the main idea we don't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits making interface with keyboard and r reading keyboard and reading the keyboard commands . And then there should be an electronic circuit making electronic signals according to these commands and finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making making waves to transmit through the air and this air this wave will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to r to realise the command . Okay , about what I found about different these different blocks are , usually there are two different methods to for designing a remote control . This is this can be the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . And also as I understood , and I think it was a part of Bob , presentation , people prefer to have to have the remote control with less button . So for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on T_V_ and putting less lesser stuff on the on the remote control . And personal preferences , certainly a remote control with working with radio waves is preferred because you can pr you can take it in any direction and you don't need to tune it any way . marketing: Do you think radio waves will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: I don't think so , because we can make we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . So they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . project manager: So can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: Yeah , it should be okay . project manager: We have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: no but as I know , there is a range for for this f for for for this stuff , for designing this circuit . We can we can we can tune our transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we don't need to ask any permission . And what happen with radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? And so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: for this I'm not I I don't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting p password or something inside the wave , so the only your T_V_ can understand it project manager: Okay . A kind of identification , user interface: Yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: Yeah f I know about this , since it's my it's exactly my field , so . So industrial designer: It's kind of handshaking , when starting to when you start to communicate with the your T_V_ then then it's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . So industrial designer: So so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the T_V_ set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . A specific remote control has a specific f industrial designer: Yeah but we we don't have to think about this because I think as a function designer that we will use the already made circuits which we probably bu buy . I have only a couple of things because I had I struggled a bit with the software that I'm supposed to use in this in this company . what I have to do ? A look at what the other company Okay so presently I am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because I didn't work with these circuits so far so I have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the I_R_ circuits and so on , so I'm currently looking what is available on the web . And I wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , I would be glad if you can tell me about them . , okay findings , that's the point that I'm working on currently but so far I I was looking what what are the blue circuit , radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: So , I know that the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can you can make the T_V_ do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the T_V_ you probably won't need to to change the program and so on and so I am I am voting for s to stick to the infra-red control instead of R_W_ but we will discuss it later maybe . Components to use , I'm not exactly sure what I will use for the design of the circuit . It depends on whether we will use the L_C_D_ and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec Yeah ? marketing: Are we are we planning to take an off the shelf an O_E_M_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: No no no no no . This we this we buy I think , because it's rather cheap nowadays and it's not worth to construct ourselves . So , speech recognition well , L_C_D_ it's okay because it's common nowadays to use L_C_D_ , project manager: industrial designer: so I agree on using any kind of L_C_D_ , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . industrial designer: But the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . So what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: Yeah , I'm project manager: Or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: Oh . But if we use the L_C_D_ even the radio frequency communication with the T_V_ set and the backlight and related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . If we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we'll see afterwards . industrial designer: It depends of you if if the M_E_ or U_I_D_ , project manager: . industrial designer: I'm sorry about the names , I don't really know , want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not Because the the the electronic device's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . And my personal preference is yes , I would like also preferably to use R_W_ circuit , but from the point of view of the design and price , I would stick to I_R_s . project manager: Why ? Because it's simpler ? industrial designer: Because because the the range where you can use it is fair . industrial designer: Otherwise I don't care what I put there because it's the chip which I buy or which we buy . marketing: What how much more expensive ? Are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: Well , three to three to five . marketing: Or ten times more expensive ? Or industrial designer: N not ten times , marketing: Okay . marketing: because all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people don't expect anything other than infra-red . project manager: Well I , oh industrial designer: Th they are used to use it when they can see the T_V_ so , I don't know . project manager: we want to to have something new and So we I think we should still thinking about it . marketing: But I think , based on my usability studies I th I feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: So I have to inform you I receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . And Because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it's not useful to have teletext . the second thing is they suggest that that we should use the remote control only for T_V_ , not for D_V_D_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it's too complex and because we have not much time for this project we should stay on T_V_ on the only specific T_V_ remote control . , It's That mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is , we put fashion of in electronics . So , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it's from Real Reaction and he s they should recognise the company . So , So now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this on this remote control . industrial designer: Okay , so the available things are L_C_D_ , the buttons and everything . project manager: Yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: You should probably speak . Do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? those nine plus one or two ? project manager: Yeah . project manager: I think it would be a b industrial designer: Because it's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: On the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it's marketing: Yeah , I user interface: Yeah . project manager: Maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: Yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: industrial designer: Like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . Maybe we could have key buttons , like discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: You mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: If you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: So it requires the use of L_C_D_ probably , to to tell you project manager: Yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: We could maybe also c incorporate Petre's idea of the slider for the volume , with the channel . industrial designer: So we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: I think so . project manager: What about the settings of the T_V_ ? Because it's button we don't use very often , but it's we need it anyway . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we don't have any access to the to the T_V_ design or we can change some design . Because one solution for this ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: On the screen , you mean ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: And then marketing: I don't Oh , I don't but I don't think we're we're the ones . this remote control we're developing is a generic control for all T_V_s , I think . I don't know if it's possible to to watch something on T_V_ user interface: W I I think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the T_V_ to to to print these things . industrial designer: Well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the L_C_D_ and this stuff is no problem in the price . project manager: So , what are we doing with the settings ? Because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . Maybe with the L_C_D_ we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: Yeah . marketing: But then you don't want to make the L_C_D_ display too complicated at the same time . marketing: there's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: Yeah . marketing: So I think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they're required . project manager: In the menus of the L_C_D_ or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . industrial designer: Should should shouldn't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? Because generally project manager: It's it's a kind of setting , I think . marketing: well I think when they say power button they mean to turn the T_V_ on and off . project manager: No , I think it's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: Yes . Well I I project manager: I I think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: But if you're watching T_V_ for two hours , you don't want your T_V_ to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: You don't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . marketing: based on our usability studies again , pe people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . marketing: you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: Okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep keep the L_C_D_ and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the T_V_ and if you close it , it will project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Because , well it's maybe question for you t marketing: I think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your T_V_ , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the T_V_ off . marketing: and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: Yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . industrial designer: Yeah but since we have the L_C_D_ , we didn't need too much button too many buttons . user interface: industrial designer: Should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: For what ? industrial designer: power button . marketing: I think it should be a bu industrial designer: If it if it's a button or user interface: Yeah . marketing: S What about things like the clock and timers ? industrial designer: Do we still have the time ? I I just wonder . Well what w what was the question ? user interface: Clock or marketing: you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: Usually it's already on T_V_ or something like that . industrial designer: Yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: no ? Because if if the T_V_ turns on itself , it well you know , if the time The timer should be there . If we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: . project manager: W In my opinion we should have only useful thing and Because apparently they want The simpler it's is better . industrial designer: Did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the T_V_ , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well And based on your user interface: marketing: Very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: But I do use the I do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: . industrial designer: Yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . industrial designer: user interface: And do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: Yes yes . project manager: I think user interface: I I thin I think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it's not very difficult to put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . project manager: So maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time <doc-sep> I'm just gonna have a little PowerPoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . our agenda today is we are gonna do a little opening and then I'm gonna talk a little bit about the project , then we'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . And then we'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . First the functional design which will be first we'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . So , what we're gonna do is start off with let's start off with Amina . industrial designer: project manager: we're gonna do a little tool training , so we are gonna work with that whiteboard behind you . project manager: How do you spell your name ? industrial designer: A_ L_ I_ M_ A_ . Not necessarily 'cause it's my absolute favourite animal , but just that I think they're drawable . industrial designer: It's quite cool carry your home around where you go , quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , and they're easy to draw . industrial designer: No , user interface: I'll I should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: shouldn't I before I callously rub it off . marketing: Oh my god , it's better than what I'm gonna be able to do . user interface: and , yeah , the reason I like whales is 'cause they're well , first of all they're quite intelligent and also they're they're kind of mysterious , like we don't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . Maybe if I do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? Sort of give an idea . project manager: let's give it a little bit of a snout , I don't know , some teeth . industrial designer: project manager: I live I live right across the street from an open space in California . we have a couple we'd like to sell it for about twenty five Euro with the profit aim of fifteen million Euro from our sales and because this is such this is for television it's a we have a market range of Internet , like it's an international market range , we don't have to worry about specifics . in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty Euro . Okay , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project , I could I'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , your first ideas about creating a new r remote control , what would be the best like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you don't like , etcetera , so marketing: I hate when there's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the T_V_ like you have to do one for the power of the T_V_ and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , I don't know . Now they keep combining all different remotes together , and I don't know if I necessarily like that 'cause I feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: I've used , I've used remote controls , for things like T_V_ and the C_D_ player and video recorder and I I guess they're they're pretty neat neat little tools . user interface: So especially if you're someone really lazy like me they they're pretty nice . I find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if I'm watching T_V_ I have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the T_V_ , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . And also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they've got too many buttons on them too too sort of too sort of complicated when all I really wanna do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . My dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and I don't know how to work half of them . What's important for me , I guess , is that it's easy to use and that there's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you're doing . And one thing I particularly like is if you are not sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . industrial designer: but I know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: industrial designer: so i it's just simpler just to just turn around the T_V_ itself , and I think that's if we're gonna make a remote control , it should actually work for what it's doing . So marketing: What about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don don't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: I would imagine all of them , industrial designer: I know . project manager: but we could but it's possible we could use like a lithium battery that would last a lot longer than like double A_s . project manager: like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of M_P_ three players now and that kind of thing . Okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over to combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . So like you said you don't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you don't wanna have five remotes . industrial designer: Could we get something that just has No doesn't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that I'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: marketing: And maybe that spatially divides it , so it's like if you're looki if you're trying to get the T_V_ on that's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , I dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we're gonna make it , but if it's like all the T_V_ stuff was here , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: then all the V_C_R_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: . marketing: 'cause then you like , I don't even know what I'm turning on . industrial designer: Yeah , and if if you'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you wouldn't need to use every day . project manager: Okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . project manager: Because that is one thing that remotes tend to have buttons that the T_V_s no longer have as well . user interface: Can I ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: Good question . user interface: and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: I don't know that yet . user interface: or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: . user interface: marketing: I think it's just T_V_ , if it if we're taking it just new product a new television remote control that's not like doesn't say . user interface: So we should maybe we should assume that i t it's just a television that we're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: Well , I suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well I I don't know if that works technologically or not . If it's just a television then that it's a bit simpler , 'cause there's less buttons that would even need to be on it . If you have older people or people like me that aren't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . I believe we've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you'd like , industrial designer: . user requirements , so you'll be hearing about different trends , about different things that people need , I guess kind of the same discussion that we've been having , we'll get from the actual consum s consumers . I realised in this past one we we didn't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . user interface: project manager: Any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: What we're gonna be discussing at the next meeting ? Do we know that ? project manager: I haven't gotten an agenda yet , I'll put that together . project manager: and then because what we gonna do is first our individual actions and then we'll come back together . So I'm sure we'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: Yep . user interface: project manager: 'kay I'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . Can you e-mail your slides as well ? Is that possible ? project manager: Yes , I yes , I think I can . user interface: 'Kay project manager: Just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails

The group discussed the issue of having too many buttons on remote controls, with Marketing expressing concern about multimedia overload and the need for a simpler solution. User Interface agreed that multiple remotes could be annoying and suggested a set-top box for internet connectivity. However, the popularity of this technology posed a potential obstacle for global usage. Marketing focused on users' frustrations and expectations, including the need for a fancier look, shock-resistance, limited but usable buttons, easy visibility in the dark, and ergonomic design. LCD and speech recognition were also deemed important, particularly for younger viewers. The previous plan for a generic remote control failed due to development time constraints. The group then discussed the size and layout of the remote, aiming for a comfortable fit in the hand. Users expressed dissatisfaction with current remote designs and only utilized a small percentage of the available buttons, with channel selection and volume being the most commonly used. The marketing expert highlighted the importance of a fancy yet technologically innovative and user-friendly design. The group then brainstormed ways to implement these requirements.

Summarize the discussion on use cases, Internet connection, Marketing's presentation on user requirement, size of the device in relation to overall requirements, and the conclusion of experiments and questionnaire for user requirement.

We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey? kirsty williams am: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair—I hope you'll be pleased to hear this—that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been? kirsty williams am: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage—and we always encourage—local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived? kirsty williams am: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors' reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. steve davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process—it gives it greater push and support around it. kirsty williams am: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. And because of the word 'toolkit'—the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist, 'Just do this and check list'. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that 'toolkit' gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. lynne neagle am: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Siân Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Siân. suzy davies am: Yes, the resource, thank you—about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like? kirsty williams am: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. suzy davies am: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all. steve davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince—and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them—that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box, 'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability—sometimes, the practitioners are like, 'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.' And I think that's been a part of the constant—not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do. lynne neagle am: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets? kirsty williams am: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that—you know—is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines—you know, 'We did this and it's resulted in that'—given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say, 'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that? kirsty williams am: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. So, our school improvement service—it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. huw irranca-davies am: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying 'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'? kirsty williams am: So, that system has evolved over time. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like 'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments—the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that—. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system—'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.' But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough—there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right? kirsty williams am: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right—absolutely right. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. huw irranca-davies am: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools? kirsty williams am: That's it—you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities' and school improvement services' knowledge about their schools. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve—more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school—and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government—as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school—requiring special measures or urgent improvement—and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment, 'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying—Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying, 'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?' It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it—that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually—I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. Steve, I don't know— steve davies: I think your important point is about, 'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?' And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness—not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again? kirsty williams am: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early—not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big, 'We must do something' and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense? lynne neagle am: I've got a couple of supplementaries on—. Sorry? kirsty williams am: Does that make sense? lynne neagle am: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Siân. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering—. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category—. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are— suzy davies am: That they don't know how to do this. kirsty williams am: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve—because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say, 'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.' And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities. sian gwenllian am: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward? kirsty williams am: I think, Siân, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around 'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?' You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority—those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account—have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools—11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales? kirsty williams am: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right—we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result—hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. steve davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups—they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues—leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12, 18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely—. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia—three words in it. Why haven't you done it? kirsty williams am: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that— hefin david am: It was only three words. kirsty williams am: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services—scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities. kirsty williams am: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective? kirsty williams am: The school improvement services? hefin david am: The four consortia. kirsty williams am: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly—and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that—and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate? kirsty williams am: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery. hefin david am: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do? kirsty williams am: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised. hefin david am: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working? kirsty williams am: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand—not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision. hefin david am: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances— hefin david am: What does that mean, though, 'seeking assurances'? kirsty williams am: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also. hefin david am: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then. kirsty williams am: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. hefin david am: Steve, did you want to say something? steve davies: Obviously—[Inaudible.]—that point. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand? kirsty williams am: So, that is the current model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way. hefin david am: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document— 'The implementation of this model will change over time'— is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view? steve davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. hefin david am: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier. hefin david am: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be? kirsty williams am: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. hefin david am: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about? steve davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago—just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum—that's a key part of it. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service—is it heading in that direction? kirsty williams am: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. sian gwenllian am: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense? kirsty williams am: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. sian gwenllian am: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends? kirsty williams am: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures—you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add. steve davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at—things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs—for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level—we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools. kirsty williams am: So, if we look at—level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children— sian gwenllian am: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures—I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge—whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children—and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals—were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison. sian gwenllian am: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis? kirsty williams am: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says, 'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.' That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think, 'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else? kirsty williams am: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data—I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. steve davies: Can I, very briefly—? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers. [Laughter.] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children—where they really are within that system. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children. suzy davies am: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research—I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation? kirsty williams am: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years. suzy davies am: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this £100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated? steve davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year. steve davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report—because it is an extensive report—to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into. kirsty williams am: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because—. Exams are important—of course they are, qualifications are important—but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important. lynne neagle am: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then? suzy davies am: In a whole-school approach. kirsty williams am: I absolutely—and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me. suzy davies am: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it? kirsty williams am: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing. suzy davies am: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time? kirsty williams am: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of 'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes? kirsty williams am: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says, 'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to—.' We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA. sian gwenllian am: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be. sian gwenllian am: But, this is despite the fact that there is £475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. kirsty williams am: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9.4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. sian gwenllian am: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon? kirsty williams am: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some £10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children—not FSM children; the national average for all children. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. lynne neagle am: Siân, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid. sian gwenllian am: Sorry? lynne neagle am: This is going to have to be the last question. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019? kirsty williams am: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.<doc-sep>Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? kirsty williams am: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done—some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification—there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement—and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. julie morgan am: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? kirsty williams am: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. julie morgan am: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? kirsty williams am: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification—I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. julie morgan am: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—? kirsty williams am: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? kirsty williams am: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. andrew clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. lynne neagle am: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian. sian gwenllian am: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? kirsty williams am: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates— sian gwenllian am: Ten years? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. sian gwenllian am: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? kirsty williams am: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. sian gwenllian am: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? kirsty williams am: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. sian gwenllian am: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. kirsty williams am: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. lynne neagle am: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? kirsty williams am: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one— lynne neagle am: She wasn't. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? kirsty williams am: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. dawn bowden am: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. dawn bowden am: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. kirsty williams am: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well. lynne neagle am: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. suzy davies am: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now—that some students were being told, 'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.' I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said, 'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my "Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said, 'Under no circumstances are you to do that—no, that's not allowed.' This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be— suzy davies am: It's gaming. kirsty williams am: —denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. hefin david am: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that? kirsty williams am: I don't agree. hefin david am: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. kirsty williams am: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University— hefin david am: Who has influence over students. And, actually, Cardiff University—indeed, all Welsh universities—accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. hefin david am: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. kirsty williams am: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer—and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge—they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? kirsty williams am: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. hefin david am: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? kirsty williams am: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand—not via my officials, but first-hand—from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors—last year—with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. lynne neagle am: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail— hefin david am: No, I've said that. lynne neagle am: —we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. kirsty williams am: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. hefin david am: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? kirsty williams am: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics—some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative—that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities— hefin david am: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. What I’m saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. And therefore, I think it is a myth—I would go as far as to say that it’s a myth—that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. andrew clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. andrew clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don’t actually make it part of their offer. So, we’re still on a journey—that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. So, it isn’t just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. When it was a 'yes'/'no' qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. kirsty williams am: And that’s the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? kirsty williams am: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don’t regard it as a detriment to students. Siân wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. sian gwenllian am: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? hefin david am: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? sian gwenllian am: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. kirsty williams am: Well, it’s a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer—Welsh universities. sian gwenllian am: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can’t actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. kirsty williams am: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. suzy davies am: So, just briefly, you’ve said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it’s valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from—I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? kirsty williams am: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across—that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had—and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work—and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project—research based—qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work—those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. suzy davies am: Can I just add—? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities—which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. suzy davies am: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? kirsty williams am: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. suzy davies am: But not an obligation—that's the bit I'm trying to get at. kirsty williams am: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? kirsty williams am: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? kirsty williams am: Not at this stage. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well— suzy davies am: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say, 'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.' What we're saying is, 'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.' suzy davies am: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? kirsty williams am: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money—I think it was about £5 million that was going to the consortia in-year—will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? kirsty williams am: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. suzy davies am: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. kirsty williams am: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what . It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. kevin palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call 'the middle tier' to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning—so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. suzy davies am: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. lynne neagle am: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? kirsty williams am: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification—. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. lynne neagle am: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? kirsty williams am: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? kirsty williams am: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. janet finch-saunders am: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? kirsty williams am: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? kirsty williams am: Well, I don't think it's—. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. janet finch-saunders am: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. kirsty williams am: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? kirsty williams am: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. sian gwenllian am: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. lynne neagle am: Okay, you don't want to— suzy davies am: By all means you ask the others I had. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. kirsty williams am: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. suzy davies am: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? kirsty williams am: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? kirsty williams am: Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. lynne neagle am: What's a MOOC? [Laughter.] kirsty williams am: So, it is an online—a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? lynne neagle am: Okay. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? kirsty williams am: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. I think it's an individual case, this one— lynne neagle am: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? , that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. andrew clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? suzy davies am: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. hefin david am: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? lynne neagle am: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs— hefin david am: And it was obviously unanimous— lynne neagle am: —and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies, and I'm very pleased to welcome Angela Burns, who is substituting for Suzy this morning. Can I also welcome Siân Gwenllian to the meeting? Siân is joining us from her constituency office via video-conference. I'm currently registered as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University, although I haven't done any work for them for some time. We'll move on, then, to item 2 this morning, which is our evidence session on the higher education new academic year allocations. I'm very pleased to welcome David Blaney, who is chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and Bethan Owen, who is deputy chief executive of HEFCW. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions are from Angela Burns. I just wanted to talk about, really, the financial sustainability of the higher education sector because, as we know, there's been all sorts of things going on in the press. So, can I just start with, actually, quite a technical question and ask you what the financial indicators look like for the universities here in Wales, and are there particular indicators that are really flashing warning signals to you? dr david blaney: Well, shall I just start with a couple of contextualising comments and Bethan can come in then with some detail? It's undeniably the case there are financial challenges facing our universities. They result from three main causes: one is the impact of the demographic dip of 18-year-olds, which is deeper and longer in Wales than it is elsewhere in the UK. And, of course, we also have current uncertainty as a result of the Augar review in England, and whether that might play into Wales, and also Brexit. These challenges are not unique to Wales; the majority of the UK universities are actually taking out cost one way or another. Before the Diamond review of fees and funding in Wales, there was a pre-existing funding gap in resource between England and Wales, and even now, that's still the case. So, Welsh higher education institutions are approximately £40 million worse off than they would be in the English system. That's a challenge, and that is a result from a political decision to invest in students, and that's fine. We're not seeing a crisis; we are seeing some real challenges, and there is a distinction, I think, between—. We have to understand, though, that taking out cost to balance the books has a detrimental effect on the capacity. Obviously it impacts on the people who lose their jobs immediately, but there's a medium to longer term impact on the capacity of the system to deliver for Wales. They are taking out capacity; they're not cutting at fat now, they're cutting out core capacity. And so, the range of the curriculum, the range of research and innovation, the range of the contribution that universities can make will be diminished by that. And against that backdrop, the introduction of the Diamond reforms is hugely important—delivery of that is going to be really important—and we are really pleased to see the Minister able to meet her commitments in respect of that. This forthcoming year will be the first year we see an increase in the resource, through us, to higher education. There are some very tired staff in universities, and we've seen some stuff in the press recently about some of the impact of stress there as well. angela burns am: Can I bring you back to the financial element of that? Can I just ask a question: what are the university reserves looking like at present? dr david blaney: Here, I refer to my learned friend. There's a difference between the distributable reserves—I don't have those numbers before me, but looking at reserves, what is more important are those reserves that are available as cash or liquid cash. So, universities have reserves, but a large amount of that is tied up in their estates, so they're not immediately realisable. So, one of the key measures that we're looking at, which is even more important than surpluses and deficit, is the operating cash that our universities are generating at the moment. When we look at operating cash in 2017-18, they were generating, as a percentage of income, about 7.6 per cent, which contrasts with nearly 10 per cent for the same year for English institutions. And that represents their capacity to generate surplus cash to meet their costs, which now, increasingly, include the costs of servicing their borrowings. So, again, because capital funding has not been as available to universities as it was, they've invested in their estates and that's largely been funded by borrowings. The costs of those borrowings have to be met on an annual basis, so that's becoming an increasing proportion of the operating cash that universities have. angela burns am: I just asked that question because I know that about four years ago, the universities were sitting on substantial reserves and were less than keen to deploy them back into actually using them for the students—it was more about building up the war chest, if you like, of the universities. And I just really wanted to have an understanding of how that picture might have changed over the last four years and are they actually skinnier cats now, rather than before. bethan owen: We can get you that analysis, but even four years ago, I think the definition of exactly what's meant by reserves, it's really important to look at what are distributable reserves as opposed to the assets that universities have. bethan owen: And, there are also differences in the way that universities have secured funding for investing in their estates. So, for example, Cardiff University have had a bond rather than borrowing, which you draw down as you're spending. So, in the short term, the reserves of Cardiff will appear as though they have significant cash balances, but all of those are restricted for investment in the estate and, over the next two or three years, will be utilised for that. angela burns am: So, overall, you're painting a picture of a sector that's under a significant degree of financial stress, and this is obviously using your key financial indicators. Do you monitor each and every university, or do you wait for them to come back and tell you what their situation is? bethan owen: We monitor, we receive forecasts, five-year forecasts, and we meet frequently with all our universities now. It varies, depending on the risks of the universities, as to how frequently we meet, but we're actually meeting with every university because even the forecast that we received last July, the changes, even in the 12-month period, are significant enough for us to need a better understanding of what the latest position is. Although it had a turnover and income of £1.5 billion, which had increased, nonetheless it had a small deficit of 0.4 per cent of income in 2017-18, which was an improvement on the deficit the year before of 1.7 per cent, but notably, again, the sector in England were looking at surpluses of 3 per cent to 4 per cent in the same period. The forecasts that we had this time last year were indicating that, for 2018-19, we should have a sector that's roughly in a break-even position, but that has to be caveated with waiting for new forecasts in July, where there will have to be a reflection of the pension costs, and there have been significant changes in pension costs, both for the teachers' pension scheme and the universities' superannuation scheme as well, and those will be significant costs that universities have to build into their forecasts at a time when their income, certainly their fee income, is not increasing, and that is the challenge. angela burns am: Are we going to lose any universities in the next couple of years? dr david blaney: I don't think so. As I said earlier on, we're not seeing a crisis, we're seeing really challenging circumstances for institutions to manage. At the moment, our sense is they are managing them, so one of the things we try to do is to make sure that, insofar as we can see it, we are making sure that the institutions are alert to the challenges they're facing, and are actually engaging those challenges properly, and we are seeing that at the moment. So I think what we will see if the pressure continues unabated is more costs being taken out, so more jobs being lost, more capacity being lost, but that's not the same as falling over. There is always the possibility of structural change within the sector, and that might be one of the solutions that institutions think about, but it's not a policy position, and it's not always a good short-term response to crisis anyway, actually. But I think, as I say, we're in a managed situation, but the challenges are quite acute. angela burns am: When you talk about structural change, are you referring to the fact that certain offshoots or divisions might close? I bring this up because I'm the Assembly Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, and I have had multiple representations from students, and their parents, who are about to go to Lampeter and who've been told that courses are being restructured, there's a massive staff loss, and they have concerns about whether the three-year commitment they're about to make to a course is going to be able to be sustained. So I am trying to drill down a little bit, because I think it's only fair for the students to know what they're up against, and also it's a bit like in the great depression—you can start a run on something, can't you? Because if enough people believe it, then suddenly enough people will stop going to what is an excellent little university, really top-quality in medieval literature, in archaeology. And I'm just talking about one, but I know there are problems in other universities around Wales, so I just wondered if you could comment on that and also what processes you as HEFCW might have in place to protect any student who does find themselves in a situation where their course appears to be disappearing before their eyes. So, if we look at the debate that happened in the Senedd last week, from my reading of the transcript, it was actually quite a balanced debate where pretty much every contributor made reference to the contribution that higher education is making. There was reference to the national student survey scores, and in many ways Wales is the best place in the UK to come and be a student, because you are looked after properly in Wales. But there was also a perfectly legitimate exploration of whether or not there's a crisis, and if you look at the way in which that was represented in the media, the crisis bit stuck and the rest of it didn't. At the point where the sector is trying very hard to recruit students, it's really quite unhelpful that you get that sort of representation. So we do need to make sure, I think, all of us, that we try to avoid a situation where there can be media amplification of a problem that's not actually as acute as the media are portraying it, and that is very harsh. I'm not being critical of the political process here, but it has ripples and we do need to be careful that we don't start a run on this. In terms of the specifics at Lampeter, we understand that there are no plans to close any of the departments, and there certainly will not be plans to pull the rug out from under continuing students. So there's an absolute obligation on them to meet their commitments, and that's a contractual obligation anyway, so it's a legal obligation. But we also have a quality machinery that we operate where we would expect institutions to be able to demonstrate that they've put in place appropriate arrangements to ensure that students can finish their programmes of study. So they're not going to be recruiting students to programmes that they're not planning to continue—they just are not going to do that. And if you think about it in a market context, it would be suicidal for a university to treat their students like that. angela burns am: But I have to ask these questions because the auditor was very clear that there was a material uncertainty in Trinity Saint David's financial plans. dr david blaney: Yes, I understand that, so let’s come back to the material uncertainty. What I'm hoping to try and express is that we have absolute confidence that the institutions will not do the dirty on their students. They will look after their students and if they're recruiting to programmes, they are recruiting to programmes that they are planning to run, and run through to completion. And the expectations that we place on them in terms of our quality assurance machinery is precisely that—when they are engaged in portfolio change, they have to look after the interest of the students that they currently have. In terms of our oversight and monitoring, our primary consideration, again, is the interest of the students. They are the people who have, in many ways, least influence over what happens in terms of the way an institution is managed. Although, they do have a voice and, actually, the arrangements for the student voice in Wales are, again, better than elsewhere in the UK. But, nonetheless, we do not wish to see students becoming innocent victims of difficulties of management and financing. Our institutional risk review process is fundamentally designed to make sure that institutions are grappling with their problems before they become a crisis. So, we have machinery, which has 70/80 different factors and hundreds of questions that we ask twice a year, to interrogate the performance of the institutions and to make sure that we are seeing them managing the issues that they're facing. So, it's not the challenges you face, it's the way you face your challenges—it's a cliché—and, at the moment, they are managing them, but if we were in any way concerned that they weren't, the people who are most at risk in that context are the students and we will be intervening to make sure that they were cited, and we do intervene when we have to. angela burns am: Well, following on from what you said, I've just got two really specific technical questions, then, to ask, because you said that you look across the whole scope to make sure that they are meeting all of their correct liquidity ratios and so on. So, considering how much is invested in their estates, are you happy that each university's estates strategy and its financing is prudent and has appropriate governing-body oversight in place? dr david blaney: Yes, so the estates strategies that institutions operate are overseen by either the full governing body or relevant sub-committees in respect of every institution, so there is proper governance oversight. And in all of those instances, there is staff and student engagement as well in the strategic approach on estates. So, the machinery is in place— angela burns am: Because it's the big thing that drives most of university borrowing, isn't it? dr david blaney: Indeed, it is. angela burns am: So, if our universities are on a sticky wicket, we just need to know that the borrowing that they're undertaking is absolutely prudently assessed and is appropriate. So, as long as you're content, if I can hear you say that—[Laughter.] dr david blaney: Okay. We're content on two fronts: one is that the governance machinery within the institutions is structured appropriately to look at that, but also that if the institutions are wanting to engage in anything other than relatively trivial borrowing, they have to get our consent as well. And what we don't do is second-guess everything, but what we do do is make sure that the governing body, or its relevant committees, have been asking the right questions. bethan owen: Can I just add to that, then? angela burns am: Yes, of course. bethan owen: In asking for the forecasts, we have reinforced this year the importance of universities looking at different scenarios. So, to be looking at the demographic and maybe in the past, where there's potentially been growth in the system and universities have built that into their forecast, we have explicitly asked this year that we are provided—not just the governing body—with the scenario where there is no growth in the income. That's not the core forecast, but a scenario, so that it's quite clear how reliant the forecasts are on that growth, and if that growth doesn't come through, what the contingency plans are for ensuring that all the cost commitments can be met. And we should probably just differentiate between—we have a role before borrowings are entered into, but all the best forecasts in the world can never quite predict, certainly what's happened in the last two years, probably, in universities. So, there are significant borrowings that are now committed to and the key measures we are looking at are universities' capacity to meet their covenants and their repayments under those borrowings, because that's essential for maintaining their liquidity. angela burns am: Which actually, neatly, thank you, brings me to my last question, which is: have any universities broken those loan covenants or been close to breaking them, unable to pay their borrowings as and when they fall due? bethan owen: There was a significant change in accounting standards in 2015, financial reporting standard 102, so most universities had to renegotiate their covenants, but it was because the accounts were looking very different. The accounting standards brought about changes in how income was recognised and how some service concession arrangements, largely student accommodation arrangements, and pension costs, significantly, were recognised in the accounts. So, most universities have had to renegotiate covenants, but we're not aware of any who've had to renegotiate due to covenant breaches, other than one which the University of Wales Trinity Saint David disclosed in their financial statements—that they did need to renegotiate their financing arrangements, which they have done earlier this year, and they have now negotiated new covenants. It's a core part of financial management in universities now that you manage your relationship with your lender as well as with us. Breaching covenants in themselves is different to doing that with your lender being unaware and the factors being within your control. So, again, from that perspective, we have the covenants built into our forecasts, we require the forecasts to show how the university are planning to be within their covenants. The nature of those covenants vary, but most of them require a measure of cash flow, a ratio between the cash generated and the cost of debt, so there is close monitoring that is required because of the borrowing in the system, as well as our ongoing monitoring as well. Just before we move on to Hefin David, can I just ask you what your view, then, is on the statement included by auditors in the accounts of Trinity Saint David that there is material uncertainty? bethan owen: Yes, I'll pick up on that. The material uncertainty largely relates—there is a note in the accounts that explains the factors that are being taken into account, but it largely relates to some significant cash receipts that have been subject to timing delays and the fact that the timing of these is essentially outside the control of the institution. The main delay relates to the receipt of funding for the Egin project, which was due to be received from the Swansea city deal. That funding has been delayed, but the sums due to the university are still due to the university—it's the issue of the timing of those receipts that is causing a cash pressure. Just in terms of cash flows, all universities have to ensure that they are maintaining enough cash in their system to meet their payments as they fall due. Most of their costs are incurred on a monthly basis, staff costs in particular, but the income flows into universities are now less regular. In days gone by, that funding would largely flow from us and that would also come on a monthly basis. A quarter of that money comes in in October, a quarter in February, and the majority of it, half of it, doesn't come into the university in cash until May. So, that's quite a different cash management scenario for universities to manage; it requires holding cash balances to do it. Just before I bring Hefin in, we're going to need to have a bit of agility, as Dai Lloyd would call it, in our questioning and our answers if we're going to cover the ground that we need to cover. hefin david am: How can we be assured that governance arrangements across the eight institutions are sufficiently rigorous but also consistent? dr david blaney: So, the first point to make, of course, is that universities are autonomous, as you know— hefin david am: I've just written 'independent and autonomous'. The university governing body obviously is an important part of the machinery, particularly in terms of generating constructive challenge for the executive within universities. The governing bodies all are expected to behave in a way that is consistent with the guidance produced by the Committee of University Chairs, the CUC guide, which identifies good practice. Just in terms of governing bodies, it's also important that governing bodies engage in a process of continual refreshing, because that gives you a greater variety of perspectives, which is important. But it’s also important they have people who understand the higher education business as well as from other contexts. But I think our view would be that when you get an increase in the contextual pressures that we’ve been discussing already this morning, the role of the governing body actually becomes even more significant. So, we have encouraged the sector, both the chairmen of the university councils, but also the vice-chancellors, to engage in a process of an independent review of governance in Wales. And it hasn’t been hard for us to encourage that—they have been keen to take this opportunity to take stock. The Welsh higher education system is part of a UK system—they don’t want to be a million miles away from the rest of the UK in terms of expectations, but there is scope in Wales, given the scale of the sector, to actually construct something that is more challenging, I think, in terms of expectations, than might be the common denominator across the UK, and maybe some more exemplification. It’s going to be quite hard to do this, but I’m very keen that we engage—and the sector are up for this—in governance culture, because, actually, you can do process checks and you’ll have the right structure of committees and have the right sort of papers going, but, in the end, it’s the dynamic within that room and who’s asking which questions and how well informed they are, and whether it's an open culture or is it a defensive culture—these are really what influences the quality of decision making. hefin david am: And how different are those cultures across institutions? dr david blaney: I think it’s very hard to say. Typically, that’s at a point where there are sufficient difficulties going on that we feel that we need to— hefin david am: Do you have the option to observe at any point? dr david blaney: We can't insist, I don't think. But in the main, actually, our presence would change the dynamic of that anyway, so I'm not sure that's necessarily helpful. But we are keen to see what we can achieve with the sector in addressing these issues of what constitutes constructive challenge. Is your aim to see consistency in the same approaches, then? dr david blaney: I think we’d like to see a consistent minimum set of expectations. In the end, it’s about personalities, it’s about people’s background and it’s about their knowledge. And we have a role to play in this as well, so we have a toolkit that we produce for governors, which, essentially, is a set of information that locates their university in the context of the UK, across a number of factors. So, if they had been told something that is not perhaps as true as it might be by the executive, they can see that in the data. Whether that toolkit needs a refresh—I’m sure it probably does, it’s been there for a while now—. So, part of that is what information we can provide to help governing bodies be properly informed as well. This is quite distant from Government—unlike other institutions, where you can prescribe some of these approaches. dr david blaney: Yes, and in the end I don't think there's any pushback from the sector in terms of wanting to operate in accordance with best practice. hefin david am: So, what about risk appetite? Do you feel that any governing bodies are exhibiting what might be considered to be an imprudent risk appetite? dr david blaney: I don't think so, and this manifests itself in two ways. So, we would see this coming through in forecasts, and we would see it coming through in requests for borrowings, predominantly. Our links into institutions are many and various, and we have our formal stuff, but we all have links into institutions that are informal and we—. One of the beauties of the scale of the sector in Wales is we can see the institutions in a way that they can't hope to in England. But we have, in some instances, I think it's fair to say, helped institutions to think again about some of their aspirations. So, where we've seen things and we think, 'That just looks ridiculously optimistic,' we've just asked the questions. We don't say, 'No, you can't do that,' because they are autonomous, they make the decisions, but we try to make sure that they're asking the right questions. hefin david am: So, would you see that governing bodies are falling short in doing that themselves, in that, where they become strategic decisions that require due diligence, are the governing bodies themselves presenting that challenge? Or the fact you've just said that, does that suggest to us that, actually, they are falling short? dr david blaney: I think there's a mixture of things going on. We have a slightly different perspective and we have a perspective that is very intimately informed in terms of how the institution is performing. So, you have a governing body with a range of perspectives, and you will also have people who are very committed and very enthusiastic about the institution, and just occasionally it's helpful to get a slightly external perspective on these things. So, I don't think it's a shortfall as such, but I just think— hefin david am: The kind of honest broker role, kind of. dr david blaney: The machinery depends on having a body like HEFCW doing some of that role, and the people who lend money to institutions are absolutely clear about that. So, we have relationships with the banks; they come and see us every now and again—typically not to talk about individual clients but just to talk about what we do and how we do it. Interestingly, for example, when Michael Barber got up before Christmas and said there will be no bail-outs of universities, we had banks on the phone to us within a couple of days, wanting just to talk about how it is in Wales and is it still how it used to be. So, it's not really a governance failure; it's just that the machinery includes us. And one of the things, from a distance—, I've been involved in different ways in an institution, and looking at the institutions from a distance. Do you find that the relationships between executive teams and governors is effective, and are they sufficiently robust and challenging as well? Those executive permanent staff and the governors—is there challenge there? dr david blaney: I would say, in the main, yes. Occasionally, we help the governors to ask the right questions, so occasionally that external perspective we've just discussed is helpful in that regard. Actually, there are times when there are tensions between the executive and governing bodies, inevitably—that's not something that's remarkable—and we can feel that as well. hefin david am: And that can become apparent from a public point of view as well—you know, media reports and—. dr david blaney: Yes, sometimes these things can spill, and the governing bodies also include student representation, staff representation, who are typically union reps, and so, you know, there are all sorts of—. I'm not in any way saying that people are indiscreet, but there are all sorts of interests that are sitting around that table that have to be managed within a governance context. And these tensions are not all-out war, but there are sometimes differences of view and they have to be worked through, and that's governance working properly, I think. hefin david am: Okay, which is—some of the work you've suggested will help towards that. hefin david am: And a last question: you've identified one university as high risk, five as medium, and two as low in the short to medium term. You're obviously not going to tell us which, but what I'm interested in is the direction of travel, and whether those that are 'medium'—are they at any point at risk of becoming 'high' in the near future? dr david blaney: I think it's fair to say that the direction of travel is that we're seeing an increased risk profile in the sector in Wales, and it's about the financial pressures that we've already discussed this morning. And that is why the efforts that the Minister has gone to to secure the Diamond settlement, and, indeed, other bits of money now and again, are so important. So, she's doing what she can, and that's really good, but we always knew that, between the point of the Diamond recommendations being made and the full implementation, there was going to be a valley to cross. So, the amount of funding was always going to be under pressure; there's a demographic dip, and there are the other contextual factors we've discussed. And the institutions have been working very hard to try not to take cost out now that they really don't have to take out, because they don't want to reduce capacity, which they'll struggle to recover again when the financial position improves. So, they are seeing deficits, which are managed deficits, where they're spending more than their income in order just to keep the capacity in. hefin david am: And, if you're back in a year or two's time, the next few years, are we confident that there won't be more in the high-risk category? You said you don't see collapse, but are we confident there won't be more in the high-risk category? dr david blaney: Well, I think what I would always say about this process is that it doesn't guarantee 100 per cent accuracy. HEFCW is innately cautious as an organisation, so I'm not going to say we're confident, but that doesn't mean to say we're worried either. So, to answer my question: are we likely to see more in the high-risk category or not? dr david blaney: We might. bethan owen: And, just to add, I think the key bit of that is maintaining the attractiveness of Welsh universities to students, because a large proportion are coming not from just Wales, but from England and internationally—so, that's a key part—and also that our research portfolio is invested in, and that also brings economic benefits. So, I think those are the two that we are [correction: need to be] able to maintain: the institutions as attractive options for students, and that our research capacity is invested in. sian gwenllian am: Just in the interest of transparency, are you able to tell us which universities are in which categories of risk? dr david blaney: We don't publish that; we publish numbers. hefin david am: They didn't even try to—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.] lynne neagle am: Okay. Can you explain your overall approach to the 2019-20 allocations and what your priority for allocations has been? bethan owen: We publish our funding allocations, and we published the 2019-20 allocations on 4 June. For 2019-20, we're allocating £149 million, and, as David said, this is the first year that we've been able to start putting funding, additional funding, in from the Diamond recommendations for investment in the sector. So, that means we've been able to increase our recurrent teaching funding by £7 million—not a significant amount, but it's a start. And we have maintained QR, which is our funding for research, quality research, and postgraduate research, at least at the same levels of £76 million, as it's been that in previous years. We've increased part-time funding by £1 million to £26 million, and we've started to increase support for expensive subjects—that's medicine, dentistry and conservatoire provision—and higher cost subjects—those are the sciences and the STEM. So, we made a start on that and increased that support by about £6 million to £20 million in total. And, in addition to that, we have strategic funding that we're maintaining for Reaching Wider projects and the Sêr Cymru project. And then, in addition to our recurrent funding, we have had strategic funding in our remit letters for the last two years. So, we're developing programmes for civic mission, community engagement, collaborations between higher education and further education, and, more recently, we had funding at the end of March to start to implement the recommendations of Graeme Reid's report for research investment, and also for developing mental health and well-being. That strategic funding is very welcome, but to be able to build those activities into our core funding, which we hope Diamond will bring, would be more sustainable for institutions. How do your allocations to the 2019-20 academic year support and incentivise collaboration between HE and FE? dr david blaney: So, there are probably two dimensions to this. First of all, we have provided £3.5 million of separate funding specifically targeted to improve and increase collaboration between HE and FE. So, we put out a circular inviting proposals for that, and it was competitive, so we funded what was the best of the proposals, and we constrained it to be available only to pump-prime new activity or to add value to existing activity, but not just to keep things ticking over. We had seven bids submitted from across the three Welsh regions on a whole range of activities, which we probably haven't got time to go into now. I've got a long list here, but, for example, in south-east Wales, the University of South Wales is leading on a bid partnering with Cardiff University, Cardiff Met, with the Open University and all the FE players in the region. We tried to get it within regions, because that's how you get the biggest impact for learners in the area and also for smaller enterprises in terms of innovation work. And then we direct fund a couple of FE institutions for delivery of higher education for historical reasons, and we also have our funding going through to support franchise activity between HE and FE. There are about 5,000 students who are studying HE programmes under franchise in FE colleges in Wales, and our funding method has, historically for some time now, protected that money. So, we try to prevent universities from taking the money out of franchise and onto campus, because we think it's important to try to encourage local provision within particular localities. And, certainly in areas where public transport infrastructure is perhaps not what it might be, for people to move to universities can be quite a disincentive, so—. Then, finally from me, the council's remit letter for the 2019-20 academic year from the Minister does ask you to consider how you'd increase openness and transparency around the use of fee income. So, what are the issues here, and how will you take this forward? bethan owen: The reporting of the income and expenditure is largely provided, probably more so in narrative form in the accounts and the financial statements and annual reports of institutions. A number of institutions also provide graphs and more easily accessible information to understand the income and expenditure of universities. There are examples of good practice across the sector in presenting as simply as possible what the income sources are for universities and how they spend their money. And we're going to be working with the Welsh universities and sector bodies to improve the accessibility of that information for Welsh institutions. More transparent reporting of income and expenditure, and not just fee income, is actually very important for understanding how income cross-flows work in universities. Some reasonably simplistic analyses can assume that all the student fee just covers the direct costs of academic provision, but there's much more to the student experience than that, so there are costs: there are the infrastructure costs, the student support costs, even the community engagement and all the research activities bring benefits to the teaching and fee provision. So, more transparency of all the universities' income sources and expenditure and a better understanding of the income cross-flows and why you can't look at universities in isolation of student provision and research, you have to look at the whole—so, we'll be working with them to improve that information. We're going to go to Hefin David now for some questions on part-time student funding. hefin david am: Part-time student numbers are bucking the trend in Wales, as I understand it, and we are seeing a bigger increase in Wales of part-time numbers than elsewhere in the UK. How is that going to be sustainable within current arrangements? bethan owen: We've allocated £26.5 million in 2019-20 to support part-time provision, and we have been able in 2019-20 to fund some growth. So, there is growth in that funding to allow those institutions and incentivise those institutions who have recruited more students than last year to continue to do so. That came at an overall additional cost of £1.9 million, and, based on what we're hearing from student support, we're expecting to see that requirement increase. So, it's one of the areas where we'll need to look at how we prioritise Diamond funding. And at the moment, our intention—but subject to knowing the quantum of it—is to continue to support and fund growth in part-time provision. hefin david am: So, is it possible—? With the Welsh Government's policy of developing lifelong learning, is it possible that will be ever spread more thinly? dr david blaney: That is the challenge, and there's a piece of work that we have in our sights to look again at part-time and what it is and what the various drivers are. There's a temptation, I think, at times, to see it solely in terms of skills for an economy, and it is important for reskilling and upskilling, but actually, it's important for other things as well. If we see higher education solely in terms of skilling an economy, we've missed an important part of the contribution that higher education makes. But part-time is really quite difficult, because there's part-time that is about upskilling, part time that's about reskilling, there's part-time for social purposes, there's employer-supported part-time, there's student—. dr david blaney: Well, there is a sense that they are more price sensitive, yes, and so the support regime that the Government is putting in place is important, and that probably has made a difference to the numbers of part-timers entering the system this last year. But I think we need to stake stock of what is important about part-time, what the market will deliver, what the market won't deliver, what we should fund and so on. And there's a complexity around all that, as I've indicated, which we need to do a bit of work on with the sector, with the student body as well, just to take some stock of this over the next year or so. hefin david am: Could we end up seeing significant fee increases for part-time students? dr david blaney: My sense is we won't. The Government wishes us to monitor, so we monitor, and that in itself is not straightforward, actually. There's a limit to how much a fee increase would be acceptable to the part-time market. I don't think we'll see massive fee increases; we might see a bit, but we won't see masses, I don't think. We've got some questions now on funding for research and innovation, and also we'd like to talk a bit about a replacement for European Union funds. If I could turn specifically to research, we know, of course, that both the Diamond and Reid reviews called for QR funding to be maintained in real terms, but the allocation is exactly the same for 2019-20 as it has been for the past nine years. Have you carried out any kind of assessment of the impact of this level of research funding on universities and, indeed, on the Welsh economy? dr david blaney: I'm sorry; I missed the beginning of that because I couldn't hear this headset. I was talking about the Diamond and Reid reviews at the beginning of my question and the fact that they had recommended that QR funding should be maintained in real terms. The reason the sum hasn't increased is because we haven't had enough money to be able to increase it and still meet the obligations we have to other bits of the HE system. Both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid were very clear about the importance of being able to invest in our QR research funding, for a number of reasons. The capacity of the sector to be able to respond to funding opportunities elsewhere in the UK and across the rest of the world is itself determined by the size and the strength of the research base, which is sustained by QR funding. If they go for UK-based competitive research funding, that is typically constructed on the absolute assumption that QR will be part of that mix. So, they tend to fund to 80 per cent of the actual cost of the research, with the expectation that QR will plug the gap. And we know that, although the Welsh research base is extraordinarily productive, and really is punching above its weight in many ways—and I mentioned earlier the impact of the research base in the last research excellence framework—we know that, actually, it could do so much more, if it just had more scale. So, we fully endorse the reports from both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid that QR is important, and it's important also to be able to allow institutions to invest in research areas that emerge over time. It's almost impossible for a body like us, far less the Government, to know where these emerging strengths are going to come from, and QR provides the flexibility for institutions, which is absolutely fundamental to keeping the research base dynamic. sian gwenllian am: Therefore, you do have concerns that this isn't increasing—you have that concern of a lack of increase in the level of investment. But has any particular assessment been made of the impact of not increasing that funding? dr david blaney: So, there is—. Graeme Reid's report produced an assessment of the correlation between QR funding and capacity to generate funding from other sources, and there's a very close correlation— sian gwenllian am: Has HEFCW done any assessment to look at the effect of underfunding research, to all intents and purposes? dr david blaney: Not directly. sian gwenllian am: Your remit requires you to encourage universities to continue to develop one particular element of research, which is educational research. How does your allocation for 2019-20 contribute to that in terms of pedagogy and educational research specifically? dr david blaney: Bethan, did you want to say something on this? bethan owen: I was just going to add that, when we look at the funding that comes into our sector in Wales, compared with the rest of the UK, it's easy to see from the figures that our percentage of income that comes from research is smaller than in England, so the figures show that we receive less of the money that's available, which is a factor that results from us having less QR as a percentage, so we're in a situation where we get less of that UK funding that's available as well. sian gwenllian am: So, there's a knock-on to that; that's what you're trying to say. But from the point of view of my question on educational research—? dr david blaney: So, we have provided funding in 2017-18 and 2018-19 to WISERD Education, which is a research collaboration between a number of the Welsh universities, specifically looking at educational issues, and we're providing additional funding to that to add value to the Welsh Government's existing evaluation of the progress of pioneer schools in developing the three-to-15 curriculum in Wales. I won't go into the full detail of it now, but it's a five-partner project feeding into this with researchers from Cardiff, Cardiff Met, Trinity Saint David, Aber, Bangor and the University of South Wales. So, it's a collaborative effort, and we have, in the past, also funded WISERD Education, so it's an important research facility and increasingly being used, I'm delighted to say, by Welsh Government in underpinning its own policy thinking. sian gwenllian am: And likewise, in 2019-20, there will be allocations specifically for this. Well, could you provide the remit letter from—[Inaudible.]—do that? You have to do everything in the remit letters. dr david blaney: We do what we can to pay due regard to the remit letters, as the wording goes. sian gwenllian am: And then turning to the impact of the loss of funds were we to leave the European Union. Of course, this is going to have a far-reaching impact on future research, and the Reid review has made recommendations to mitigate this impact. So, what assessment have you made of how allocations will be able to help universities to transition away from EU funding? dr david blaney: So, again, the Reid review has done a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of an impact assessment for us. There has been an additional £6.6 million allocated for research very recently by the Government, which we have put out specifically in line with some of the recommendations from Reid. So, that's a start, but that's not sustainable funding, and it's not enough, really, but it is a good and welcome start. Reid was also not just talking about the money, but also talking about the way in which the Welsh research base both represents itself and also engages with UK-wide developments. And in response to that, we have recently issued our own vision for research and innovation, which was developed over a number of months, following the Reid report closely, working with stakeholders, including the Welsh Government, in order to try and set a vision for how we respond to the challenges facing research in the future, including the reduction, potentially, of access to EU funds. A lot of that requires investment in the Welsh research base in order to be able to go for competitive funding at a UK level. Since it seems possible at least, and possibly even likely, that any money retrieved from not having to invest in the EU will sit in London rather than necessarily being devolved to the devolved administrations—we understand fully the Welsh Government's position on that, and we don't disagree with it. But either way, we need a research base that's able to compete, and that's why the investment recommendations of Reid are so important. I think Reid was saying that there may be pots of money out there that aren't being accessed at the moment by Welsh universities. Are you able to help then within that process? bethan owen: One aspect that we do intend to fund—and this is from Diamond, as well as Reid—is to place funding back into the system for innovation. We're consulting currently, with the intention, if the funding is available to us, clearly, in the year 2020-21, to provide £15 million back into the sector in innovation funding. sian gwenllian am: Is that part of the UKRI funding? There is some £7 billion in the hands of that organisation, as I understand it, and there may be some possibilities there too. bethan owen: That £15 million will be money that comes from us, but the intention is that the money will go in in order to improve universities' ability to access that funding from UKRI. So, Innovate UK would be the part of UKRI—and that we improve our ability to get funding from outside Wales. And, then, Graeme Reid says the same thing in terms of research—that we need more funding to do the same thing there. dr david blaney: And, then, there's also the recommendation from Reid that Wales needs to be better embedded in the conversations that are going on on a UK-wide basis, so the Welsh Government has established a presence in London in respect of research, and we have a colleague in HEFCW who is fractionally embedded in the United Kingdom Research and Innovation specifically to respond to that recommendation. And that is actually paying dividends; we are strengthening our relationship with the UK machinery, which is essential if we're to understand where they're heading and what their funding bids are all about, and even to be able to influence those. lynne neagle am: Okay, Siân? sian gwenllian am: So, as far as research is concerned, it's not all doom and gloom. There is money coming in and if the Government, as it is able to, can find money and can invest in this area, then that will help. Just a couple of questions from me, then, before you close: what is your recent work on the 'basket of goods' show regarding student accommodation costs? And have any institutions used their 2019-20 fee and access plans to make commitments to more affordable accommodation for under-represented groups? dr david blaney: First of all, on the basket of goods, the work we're doing now—we're currently in train in terms of analysing the data in respect of the basket of goods, so this is slightly premature, but our early look at the data indicates that there are no increases in costs, accommodation or other, that would cause us concern. So, it doesn't look like institutions are succumbing to the temptation to up their income streams from other costs. In terms of the fee and access plans, the sector has committed over £28 million of investment in student support-related activities from the fee and access plans, and that includes, in many instances, bursaries that are designed to help students cope with the costs of accommodation and the cost of living more generally. The support is provided for a range of purposes, but a couple of examples, just very quickly: Trinity Saint David, since we've talked about them a lot today, they offer £1,000 bursary to care leavers, which is in addition to local authority support for care leavers. Bangor also offer targeted support for care leavers, and these are often also extended, so they apply not just in term time, but throughout the holiday time as well, because people still need to live during the holidays. And just one final question from me then, going back to Trinity Saint David: are you concerned that the governing body of Trinity Saint David has taken decisions that have led to that material uncertainty, and is that unprecedented in Wales? dr david blaney: My view is that the decisions that the governing body made were, in our view, perfectly rational decisions to have made, given the information they had at the time. So, what's happened is that a number of unforeseen events have arisen, which, actually, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to have foreseen, and it's just a combination of these that has caused the cash pressure. So, I don't see this as a governance failure, and they are engaging with those challenges. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you both for attending and for answering all our questions this morning? You did say that you would give the committee a note on reserves for the last four years, so we'd be grateful if we could receive that. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Deputy Minister requesting further information for our scrutiny of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from me to the Children's Commissioner for Wales also asking for further information to pursue our scrutiny of the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education asking for an update on the framework for young people educated other than at school. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to propose that we resolve to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting and for the whole meeting on 10 July

According to Kirsty, the local authorities had already recognized the value of the current model, although they were unable to convince the government to adopt a new national model. However, they were now in the process of conducting a comprehensive review of the national model and focusing on its implementation. There was a risk of losing focus due to the emphasis on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Kirsty clarified that there was no intention to hide data, but rather to use it effectively. The grading system was rigorous and equivalent to A-Level, with a UCAS tariff associated with it. The ability of individual students was evaluated by the system. The issue of resits was to be regulated by WJEC and Qualifications Wales. Kirsty assured the committee that the grading system emphasized independent thinking and defended the value of the Welsh baccalaureate by demonstrating its UCAS tariff. Dr. David Blaney suggested that the government relied on expert assessment for certain points, as external experts could be more effective than internal sector representatives.

Summarize the discussion and decisions made regarding actions towards the document "National model for regional working" in 2015. Was the decision to continue publishing local and regional level data consistent with what was said about consortia? What was the grading system used and was it considered fair? What were Kirsty Williams' thoughts on the grading system and its fairness? Has HEFCW conducted any assessment on the impact of underfunding research?

three two three four seven six five five three one six two four one six seven seven eight nine zero nine four zero zero three zero one five eight one seven three five three two six eight zero three six two four three zero seven four five zero six nine four seven four eight five seven nine six one five O seven eight O two zero nine six zero four zero zero one two Yeah , you don't actually n need to say the name . grad c: OK , this is Barry Chen and I am reading transcript professor f: That 'll probably be bleeped out . professor f: not that there 's anything defamatory about eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: OK . so here 's what I have for I I was just jotting down things I think th w that we should do today . This is what I have for an agenda so far , We should talk a little bit about the plans for the the field trip next week . a number of us are doing a field trip to OGI And mostly First though about the logistics for it . professor f: in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . If we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . So , and , then , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . And then , anything else anybody has that isn't in that list ? grad d: I was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and I should change it ? professor f: I think that means the battery 's O K . professor f: d do you grad d: Oh OK , so th phd a: Yeah , that 's good . I I it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . this is The reason I did it was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . So the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: I live in , the corner of campus . OK , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at , you know , six thirty . Would it be easier for you if you came here and I drove you ? Yeah ? Yeah , yeah , OK . It 'll take it it it won't be bad traffic that time of day and and phd a: I guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . professor f: And then Martin Luther King to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: Yeah . phd a: Oh , I professor f: So that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . So Great , OK so that 'll It 's , it 's still not going to be really easy but well Particularly for for for Barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we don't need to bring anything particularly except for a pad of paper and So , and , you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: OK . professor f: but you know , don't don't bring a footlocker and we 'll be OK So . I 'll I 'll I 'll I 'll give you my phone number , If I 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: Wake you up . I just , it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than I usually do . , I I I figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting until we talk about wh what 's been going on . phd g: So , it means that , well , it is , a digit French database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and I 've added noise to one part , with the actually the Aurora - two noises . professor f: OK , So the HTK base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? Yeah . professor f: And again , I guess the p the plan is , to then given this What 's the plan again ? phd g: The plan with these data ? professor f: With So So Does i Just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y You just described what you 've been doing . phd g: we actually we want to , mmm , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . So we have the , TI - digit task , the Italian task , the French task and the Finnish task . professor f: Yeah ? phd g: So we have numbers with systems neural networks trained on the task data . And then to have systems with neural networks trained on , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . professor f: So - so we had talked I guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language ID corpus ? phd g: Yeah . professor f: Is that a possibility for that ? phd g: Ye - Yeah , but , these corpus , w w there is a CallHome and a CallFriend also , The CallFriend is for language ind identification . This could be a a problem for Why ? Because , the the SpeechDat databases are not telephone speech . That 's really funny isn't it ? cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . phd g: Yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the Well , you don't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: professor f: Oh I see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's the features are computed locally , and so they aren't necessarily telephone bandwidth , or telephone distortions . phd a: Did you happen to find out anything about the OGI multilingual database ? professor f: Yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what I meant . phd g: Yeah , it 's professor f: I said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an OGI language ID , not the not the , the CallFriend is a is a , LDC w thing , right ? phd g: Yea - Yeah , there are also two other databases . One they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . professor f: But I 'm not sure phd g: So professor f: we ' r e e The bandwidth shouldn't be such an issue right ? Because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? So it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , I 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: Yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gonna be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . professor f: i i I I guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages , in there . Well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have English , Spanish and French , with microphone speech . professor f: So that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: Well . phd g: So w f for for Italian , which is close to Spanish , French and , i i , TI - digits we have both , digits training data and also more general training data . professor f: Well , we also have this Broadcast News that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for English . phd g: Yeah , and perhaps , We were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , so big of a issue . u So that th Well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: depen it depen it depends how you mean " using the net " . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: So , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you can't do that . But if we say , " No , you have to have a different feature set for each language , " I think this is ver gonna be very bad . , in principle , conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . professor f: So , we say " OK , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . " OK ? And so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . professor f: Cuz you don't know who 's gonna call , and you know , so it 's it 's it 's , how do you know what language it is ? Somebody picks up the phone . Someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: Well , I chh professor f: And and he he picks up the ph phd g: Yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: Yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . If it 's th in the phone , but professor f: But that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: It could be , phd g: and , well . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? So that 's that 's , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . But the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the , on the phone . We might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . Now , it 's the OGI , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . And they may very well be right , but I I was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . Maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth , that that that the rest doesn't matter . , the other thing is , this notion of training to which I I guess they 're starting to look at up there , training to something more like articulatory features . , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . professor f: but Yeah , so I don't th I know unfortunately I don't I see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , I think , but I don't think we can ignore it . , tr for instance training on English and testing on Italian , or Or we can train or else , can we train a net on , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: Test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: Yeah , so , there 's there 's , This is complex . So , ultimately , as I was saying , I think it doesn't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . professor f: from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , " OK , so you put in the German and the Finnish . professor f: now , what do you do , when somebody has Portuguese ? " you know ? , and , however , you aren't it isn't actually a constraint in this evaluation . So I would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , " Look , we did do this " . phd g: Mmm ? phd a: And so , ideally , what you 'd wanna do is you 'd wanna run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . phd a: And that way you can say , " Well , " you know , " we 're gonna build it for what we think are the most common ones " , professor f: Yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , " here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . " professor f: Yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are , al although there are thousands of languages , from , the point of view of cellular companies , there aren't . professor f: There 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? So , an and they aren't you know , with the exception of Finnish , which I guess it 's pretty different from most most things . I guess Finnish is a is is a little bit like Hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: I don't know anything about Finnish . professor f: Or is I think well , I kn oh , well I know that H , H , I 'm not a linguist , but I guess Hungarian and Finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former Soviet Union are in this sort of same family . professor f: But they 're just these , you know , countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have I guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: . I re - installed , HTK , the free version , so , everybody 's now using three point O , which is the same version that , OGI is using . And , so we 've been talking about this this , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , the Borge cube thing . , but I I 'm Am I professor f: So are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: Resistance is futile . , the the stuff that we 've been working on with TIMIT , trying to get a , a labels file so we can , train up a train up a net on TIMIT and test , the difference between this net trained on TIMIT and a net trained on digits alone . professor f: And again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: Yeah , yeah . professor f: And and the inputs are PLP and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: Well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , we 've talked about it being , PLP , M F C Cs , J - JRASTA , JRASTA - LDA phd g: . professor f: Yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: Yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: Which is PLP , or something ? grad c: I I haven't I haven't decided on on the initial thing . , so so you take PLP and you you , do it , you you , use HTK with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . professor f: And that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , I guess I 'm I 'm not any worse off . It sounds s I I get I think I get the general idea of it , grad c: Yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: So , when you said that you were getting the labels for TIMIT , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b May Oh , I 'm just I 'm just , transforming them from the , the standard TIMIT transcriptions into into a nice long huge P - file to do training . Were the digits , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: the the digits phd a: Or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: Oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by Dan using , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: I was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: - huh . phd a: I I think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . professor f: Well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: And I was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so I was just wondering if the fact that TIMIT you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from TIMIT might be confuse the results that you get . phd a: Right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: you know , I I I guess I 'm sounding cavalier , but , I think the point is you have , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand hand - marked . It would be another interesting scientific question to ask , " Is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? " phd a: And that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , I think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: Yeah . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: What about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: between languages ? phd a: No , between TIMIT and the the digits . Well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in TIMIT to to fifty - six , the ICSI fifty - six . grad c: And then the digits phonemes , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? Is that right ? phd a: Out of that fifty - six ? phd g: Yep . phd g: But , actually , the issue of phoneti phon phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: Yeah . phd g: because you Well , some phonemes are not , in every languages , and So we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , that includes , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: phd e: SAMPA phone ? For English American English , and the the the language who have more phone are the English . But n for example , in Spain , the Spanish have several phone that d doesn't appear in the E English and we thought to complete . But for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . phd b: Other than the language , is there a reason not to use the TIMIT phone set ? Cuz it 's larger ? As opposed to the ICSI phone set ? grad c: Oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: Yeah . I have professor f: I forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was Eric , afterwards who did that . phd a: Yeah , and I think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd a: I th I think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . professor f: Yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . And the ones that are gone , I think are I think there was they also in TIMIT had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: phd b: Well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: I don't know . professor f: i It 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . What there 's Can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: Yeah , w I th I think that 's a good idea professor f: grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: Yeah , yeah . , do you wanna do it ? professor f: OK , so even even though the meeting recorder doesn't doesn't , and since you 're not running a video camera we won't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: Yeah , I have the wireless . OK , well , professor f: he can't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . So the the training for HTK is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? That there 's some training data and some test data . And , yeah , the training for the HTK models is always , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . So , then I think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . grad c: Yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: And grad c: Yeah . phd a: What about mel cepstrum ? Or is that grad c: Oh , phd a: you don't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: Yeah databases . professor f: Well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: Yeah . at least at least conceptually , you know , it doesn't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: Yeah . phd a: It 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do MFCC with the neural net phd e: Without the phd a: and everything else the same . D Because I think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , mel cepstra , actually . phd a: Is that Was that distributed with Aurora , or ? grad c: One L or two L 's ? phd a: Where did that ? professor f: The newer one . And , oh yeah , and professor f: Is it French French or Belgian French ? There 's a phd g: It 's , French French . Yeah , Herve always insists that Belgian is i is absolutely pure French , has nothing to do with but he says those those those Parisians talk funny . grad c: right ? Spanish Oh , Spanish stories ? phd e: Albayzin is the name . phd a: What about TI - digits ? grad c: TI - digits all these Aurora f d data p data is from is derived from TI - digits . grad c: basically , they they corrupted it with , different kinds of noises at different SNR levels . professor f: y And I think Stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the French also ? phd g: Yeah , we cou we could use grad c: OK . phd b: Did the Aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: They they corrupted it , themselves , phd b: OK . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? Or phd g: Yeah . professor f: I 'm just curious , Carmen , I couldn't tell if you were joking or i Is it is it Mexican Spanish , phd e: No no no no . phd g: Yeah , the No , the French is f yeah , from , Paris , grad c: Oh , from Paris , OK . And , with within the training corporas , we 're , thinking about , training with noise . So , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , Aurora is in incorporating in their , in their training corpus . , I don't think we we 're given the , the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: I think what they were saying was that , for this next test there 's gonna be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . professor f: So , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: So , I guess we can't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . professor f: exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: the testing corporas are , just , the same ones as Aurora testing . grad c: we ' r we 're gonna get German , right ? Ge - At the final test will have German . professor f: Well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be German and Danish , phd g: yeah . professor f: Oh , there 's a there 's Spanish testing in the Aurora ? phd g: not yet , but , yeah , e phd e: Yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: and , well , according to Hynek it will be we will have this at the end of November , or . phd g: Yeah professor f: So that 's , three hundred and forty - three , different systems that are going to be developed . grad d: What a what about noise conditions ? professor f: What ? grad d: w Don't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: Are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: No , I just don't understand . grad c: Well , th , when when I put these testings on there , I 'm assumi professor f: I 'm just kidding . And they 're all they 're all gonna be test tested , with one training of the HTK system . grad d: And do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: no , no , phd e: Also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gonna be , training on the noise files that we do have . professor f: So , Yeah , so I guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? , it 's not totally crazy t , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute PLP , we have MSG , we have JRA you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , won't take a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . professor f: But how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these trainings ? grad c: That 's a good question . , cuz , so , for instance , I think the major advantage of MSG grad c: Oh ! professor f: Yeah , grad c: Och ! professor f: good point . A major advantage of MSG , I see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with PLP . grad c: Now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: Well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . professor f: Yeah , so , you don't wanna , Let 's see , seven choose two would be , twenty - one different combinations . phd b: It 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: Probably phd b: right ? It 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: What ? phd b: right ? grad c: No . Yeah , there 's grad c: That would be professor f: yeah , so PLP and MSG I think we definitely wanna try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd a: When you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . Do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: Well , so , so i it doesn't increase the number of trainings . phd a: No , no , I 'm I 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . Do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: I don't think so . phd b: There 's a computation limit , though , isn't there ? professor f: Yeah , it 's just more compu Excuse me ? phd b: Isn't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for Aurora task ? professor f: Oh yeah , we haven't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: No . What it is is that there 's there 's , it 's just penalty , you know ? That that if you 're using , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gonna have lots of memory . So it 's just that , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . But , yeah , I was just realizing that , actually , it doesn't explode out , It 's not really two to the seventh . But it 's but but i i it doesn't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . Right ? So , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , you can combine their outputs and do the KL transformation and so forth grad c: phd a: But wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: Well , you gotta do the KL transformation , phd g: Eight y professor f: but phd a: Is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: Necessary to put in . Right ? phd g: So , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . professor f: Yeah , so , I guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . professor f: Because the putting them in combination , I think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . But there is the testing also , which implies training , the HTK models phd e: The the model the HTK model . professor f: How long does it take for an , HTK training ? phd g: It 's around six hours , I think . professor f: No , I 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: Ravioli . phd g: Yeah , I I think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the TI - digits test data is about , how many hours ? , th , thirty hours of speech , I think , professor f: It 's a few hours . professor f: so , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . professor f: Right ? So so w we there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . So , I think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot , are we still using P - make ? Is that ? grad c: Oh , I don't know how w how we would P - make this , though . professor f: Well , you have a , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the , a all these combinations , grad c: Yeah . It 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of HTK . How long is it for training of of , the neural net ? grad c: The neural net ? . phd b: How big is the net ? phd e: For Albayzin I trained on neural network , was , one day also . professor f: And I think there there there 's I think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: Is it faster to do it on the SPERT , or ? professor f: don't know . grad c: It 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: Used to be . Or either Adam or or Dan did some testing and they found that the SPERT board 's still still faster . grad c: And the benefits is that , you know , you run out of SPERT and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: You could set up , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on SPERT different SPERT boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . So , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . professor f: So this is Yeah , I kind of like this because what it No grad c: OK . professor f: no , what I like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . You know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . And , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , " Well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort " that 's phd e: Yeah . But if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . So what I like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . And , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a Am I am I interpreting this correctly ? Is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: Mmm . professor f: So so then I think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , you know you know , talk to talk to , Chuck , talk to , Adam , sort out about , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . , and , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and , in in kind o some kind of structured way . , and , you know , when we go to , OGI next week , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . And , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: Mmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we won't be contributing that much . phd b: How big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: for the for nets trained on digits , we have been using , four hundred order hidden units . And , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . , w we 're gonna professor f: Oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y You mean more classes . professor f: Carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? We you haven't talked too much , and phd e: D I begin to work with the Italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the HTK program and the @ @ . And I trained eh , with the Spanish two neural network with PLP and with LogRASTA PLP . professor f: Well , JRASTA has the potential to do better , but it doesn't always . It 's it 's , instead of doing RASTA with a log , you 're doing RASTA with a log - like function that varies depending on a J parameter , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . So , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . It 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: and I think to to to recognize the Italian digits with the neural netw Spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the Spanish digits , the database of Spanish digits . Was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that I have , the Albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . professor f: I 'm sorry , phd e: I 'm sorry , professor f: I have a p I had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: Oh , also that professor f: So , OK , so let 's start over . professor f: So , TI TIMI TIMIT 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the Spanish ? phd e: The Spanish labels ? That was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . Yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , Feacalc , but no , l LabeCut , l LabeCut , but don't doesn't , eh , include the HTK format to convert . I ask e even I ask to Dan Ellis what I can do that , and h they he say me that h he does doesn't any any s any form to to do that . And at the end , I think that with LabeCut I can transfer to ASCII format , and HTK is an ASCII format . And I m do another , one program to put ASCII format of HTK to ase ay ac ASCII format to Exceed professor f: phd e: Actually that was complicated , professor f: So you phd e: but well , I know how we can did that do that . So it 's just usual kind of sometimes say housekeeping , right ? To get these get these things sorted out . professor f: So it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . And then , if if you work on getting the , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . And , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at OGI , so I think that i if What 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . , the first thing was , we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , not not in stages , but more along the the time axis . grad c: je - je - je - je - je check out the results and and go that way . No , I 'm just saying , I 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: - huh . professor f: right ? And so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: Yeah . professor f: And , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , concurrently on different machines , different SPERTs , and so forth , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , " OK , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , " you 'll probably find you can't do it all . professor f: OK , so then at that point , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . professor f: Which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and And , I still think we could do a lot of them . But , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . And I know that , Stephane 's working from an NT machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . We 're over the next year or two , we 're gonna be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: So , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . professor f: So , you you don't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do don't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . Now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what I just said . But the idea is that , suppose you 're working with , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . professor f: Then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . And then that way you you won't have the the network you won't be clogging the network for yourself and others . So , it 's gonna take us It may be too late for this , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , we 're , It 's gonna take us a couple weeks at least to get the , the amount of disk we 're gonna be getting . We 're actually gonna get , I think four more , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , put them on another another disk rack . We ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , primarily between this project and the Meetings Meetings Project . But , we 've put another I guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . But , are you saying So I don't know where you 're Stephane , where you 're doing your computations . If i so , you 're on an NT machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: Yeah , it , Well , to It 's Nutmeg and Mustard , I think , professor f: Do you know these yet ? phd g: I don't know what kind . , are these are these , computational servers , or something ? I 'm I 've been kind of out of it . professor f: Unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . Yeah , I 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said Nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: Mustard . Yeah , so basically , Chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and I 'll be the one who says , " OK , spend the money . Which , n these days , if you 're talking about scratch space , it doesn't increase the , need for backup , and , I think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . Right now it 's phd a: What you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a DF minus K , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd a: and if there is then , professor f: But wasn't it , I think Dave was saying that he preferred that people didn't put stuff in slash - scratch . It 's more putting in d s XA or XB or , phd a: Well , there 's different there , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: Right . So there 's the slash - X - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . And if it 's called " slash - scratch " , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . And so that 's the kind of thing where , like if , OK , if you don't have an NT , but you have a a a Unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , it 'll be called " slash - X - something " , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be " slash - D - something " if it is backed up . And if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called " slash - scratch " . It 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . So , you don't wanna put anything in slash - scratch that you wanna keep around for a long period of time . But if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it doesn't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . So tha that 's why I was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , Mustard and and Nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . Yeah , and we do have , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gonna run over them lots of times so you don't have to go to the network . professor f: Right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where Chuck is putting it all on the on the , file server , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y it is backed up on the other disk . phd a: Yeah , so , one of the things that I need to I 've started looking at , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: Sure . Dan David , put a new , drive onto Abbott , that 's an X disk , which means it 's not backed up . So , I 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a CD - ROM or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . We haven't deleted them off of the slash - DC disk that they 're on right now in Abbott , but we I would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , this new disk also . So , anything that that you don't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gonna need , you probably wanna have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something goes wrong . So far I 've I 've copied a couple of things , but I haven't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . So I I guess I 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . professor f: yeah , I I just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: . So that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , normalization scheme as OGI is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: Yeah , I think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it it 's if we do anything else , we 're gonna end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . So , I guess , yeah , th the other topic I maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . i i i it seems to me that we wanna do is flush out what you put on the board here . Like a s like a slide ? professor f: so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: OK . And , also , if you have sorted out , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gonna do . Anything else that I a a Actually started out this this field trip started off with with , Stephane talking to Hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? , I 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . And and the other the the last topic I had here was , d Dave 's fine offer to to , do something on this . he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . So the question is , " Where where could we , most use Dave 's help ? " phd g: yeah , I was thinking perhaps if , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well it 's , running programs professor f: Yeah . phd g: and , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , speech , noise detection or , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and Which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: I think that would be a I think that 's a big big deal . Because the you know , the thing that Sunil was talking about , with the labels , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? The That that really throws things off . You know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , speech detector , the the , What was it ? What was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: He was running through these models very quickly . professor f: The only problem , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem I have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . But I think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , an an additional , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . But if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of strapped for time We have we we 've , you know , only , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , to to get a lot done . If we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be The very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not , yeah , so that that 's the question . And we don't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd e: Yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between TIMIT and Spanish or something like that . professor f: So what we were just saying is that that , I was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and wasn't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . And so , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . See the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is I really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , or , you know , a so - so job . You can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . But I remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as I recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . So , And th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , even though we 're not we don't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , clearly there 's some limitation to it . So if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . , one I think one of the a lot of people would say , and I think Dan would also , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . Reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . So wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , from from , from TIMIT or something . What what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: Yeah , it would consist in , well , creating the the superset , and , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . professor f: creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: Well , creating the mappings , actually . phd g: Yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: Maybe for the other language because TIMIT have more phone . grad c: There 's , Carmen was talking about this SAMPA thing , and it 's , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , a machine readable IPA , sort of thing , right ? And , they they have a web site that Stephane was showing us that has , has all the English phonemes and their SAMPA correspondent , phoneme , professor f: Yeah . grad c: and then , they have Spanish , they have German , they have all all sorts of languages , mapping mapping to the SAMPA phonemes , which phd e: Yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for Albayzin is n the transcription are of SAMPA the same , how you say , symbol that SAMPA appear . phd b: I was gonna say , does that mean IPA is not really international ? grad c: No , it 's it 's saying phd a: It uses special diacritics and stuff , which you can't do with ASCII characters . professor f: What , Has OGI done anything about this issue ? Do they have Do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: I don't think so . Well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining , phoneme clusters , apparently . phd a: So they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: I think they 've not done it , doing , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , English nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in English nets with , kind of seventeen , I think it was seventeen , broad classes . But Hynek didn't add didn't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . phd g: But professor f: Is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . Right ? , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , our own . Right ? So , if i if if they s , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . And now we 're saying , " Well , how do we handle cross - language ? " And one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: I think that there 's something wrong professor f: OK . What w phd g: or Well , because Well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's OK for , classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , class . Although , you are not using this for the phd g: So , I 'm professor f: You 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: Yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: Yeah . phd a: So you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: Yeah . phd b: Fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? I think , Larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . grad c: So so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: But that 's what I thought they were gonna grad c: right ? professor f: Did they not do that , or ? phd g: I don't think so . Well , professor f: So phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: They 're talking about it , phd g: I d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w Yeah . professor f: Instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take So suppose y you don't really mark arti To really mark articulatory features , you really wanna look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gonna do that . So , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic , articulatory , features . You won't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: So the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: Articulatory features . phd a: But that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: Right . And , I don't know if our software this if the qu versions of the Quicknet that we 're using allows for that . Do you know ? grad c: Allows for ? professor f: Multiple targets being one ? grad c: Oh , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: is that we could we could , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . Now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , combinations . So , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . We could I don't know , if you had the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . phd a: So , if your net is gonna be outputting , a vector of basically of well , it 's gonna have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , I don't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . Eh , eh , what made me think about this is , I was talking with Hynek and he said that there was a guy at A T - andT who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . And because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: This was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . phd a: Well , Hynek said that that , I guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . phd a: So I was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . So that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . professor f: Although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: Yeah . phd a: And then you also don't know what error they 've got on the HTK side . phd b: The soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: To sum up to one . phd b: So you can't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . Is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig No , it 's actually sigmoid - X phd g: or ? Yeah . grad c: for the phd g: So if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's OK ? grad c: You , professor f: Did we just run out of disk , grad c: I think I think apparently , the , professor f: or ? phd b: Why don't you just choose linear ? Right ? grad c: What 's that ? phd b: Linear outputs ? grad c: Linear outputs ? phd b: Isn't that what you 'll want ? grad c: . Right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - X phd b: Oh , you Yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . professor f: So , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? About to be off the air .<doc-sep> , I can say about just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU . , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . , and when they had the reverberation here , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , about nine DB . professor b: phd a: You mean , from the actual , recordings ? professor b: a fair amount of phd d: k phd a: It 's nine DB ? professor b: Yeah . , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at at , at OGI . , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , the the Aurora HTK system baseline system and the system that we were the the , other system we were using , the , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , hundred hertz high - pass . professor b: For some reason , Dave thought it was twenty , phd d: So the , center would be somewhere around like hundred professor b: but . professor b: But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ? phd d: At twenty hertz . professor b: Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ? phd d: Twenty hertz frequency Oh , it 's it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ? phd c: Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four . professor b: It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ? phd c: Yeah . professor b: Is this oh , from the from phd c: It This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four . professor b: Oh , so you , so you really set it to zero , the FFT ? phd d: Yeah , phd c: Yeah . So I wonder , is it @ @ Was there their experimentation with , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , phd d: throwing away the first ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is is , too , low . phd d: I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse . professor b: On what test set ? phd d: On the same , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora . professor b: phd d: So it was professor b: and on and on the , TI - digits also ? phd d: No , no , no . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room . professor b: Would that be more like Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you if you high - pass filter it from this room . professor b: So , the main the the phd a: So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah . phd a: So wha what is , what 's causing that ? professor b: Well , we got a a video projector in here , and , which we keep on during every every session we record , phd a: Yeah . professor b: which , you know , I I w we were aware of phd a: - huh . professor b: But but , So , those are those are major components , I think , phd a: I see . professor b: but , it , I guess , I maybe I said this last week too but it it it really became apparent to us that we need to to take account of noise . And , so I think when when he gets done with his prelim study I think one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , noise , processing stuff and and , synthesize some speech from it . phd a: When are his prelims ? professor b: And then , I think in about , a little less than two weeks . , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before It might even be in a week . I I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester professor b: week and a half . phd a: but they 'll do it any time , huh ? professor b: They seem to be Well , the semester actually is starting up . phd a: Is it already ? professor b: Yeah , the semester 's late late August they start here . , that that was sort of one , the overall results seemed to be first place in in in the case of either , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . And But if you had a a really big training set , a recognizer , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set I thought that One thing with the HTK is that is has the as we 're using the configuration we 're using is w s is being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . , so , that , that seemed to be So , if you have that that better recognizer that can that can build up more parameters , and if you , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , the right thing to do is just do u use speaker adaptation . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , the convolutional kind of things we were doing . phd d: That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ? phd a: No Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . phd d: Oh , there is another short sample set phd a: There was another short one , yeah . phd a: And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , put out yet . professor b: Is there any word yet about the issues about , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ? phd a: No , I I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . phd d: Cuz they have it phd a: Maybe I 'll send it to the list . phd d: Cuz they have , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what I feel . phd d: And , on that , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those phd a: And so they 've picked the values . professor b: For r w what test set ? phd d: p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal . professor b: But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ? phd c: So they 're , like So they are actually trying to , fix that those values using the clean , training part of the Wall Street Journal . phd d: they want to train it and then this they 're going to run some evaluations . professor b: So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ? phd d: Yeah . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters . professor b: but it 's still worth , I think , just since you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him professor b: phd a: or do you think I should send it to this there 's an a m a mailing list . , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think I think that , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to phd a: OK . professor b: @ @ you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what you know , what does he think about this and what what you know what could be done about it . professor b: if you get ten people in involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how phd a: Yeah . professor b: but if if if there is any , way to move in a way that would that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if if , if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where where political issues will come in . phd d: Because he there was some mail r saying that it 's may not be stable for Linux and all those . phd d: SUSI phd a: Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was phd d: yeah . professor b: but , I noticed , just glancing at the , Hopkins workshop , web site that , one of the thing I don't know Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a a , tool kit for doing , r , arbitrary graphical models for , speech recognition . professor b: So And Jeff , the two Jeffs were phd a: Who 's the second Jeff ? professor b: Oh , do you know Geoff Zweig ? phd a: No . professor b: so he did he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , for for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , inertia in the in the production system , and , phd a: . , so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , MFCC after noise compensation . professor b: What was it using before ? phd c: Before it was just P L phd d: phd c: So . phd c: Yeah , phd d: Yeah , yeah , yeah , phd c: noisy noisy features . phd c: This is what we get after This So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , nine frames of of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . phd a: Is that nine frames u s , centered around the current frame ? Or phd c: Yeah . professor b: S so , I 'm I 'm sorry , there 's there 's there 's how many how many inputs ? phd c: So it 's twelve times nine . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which actually shouldn't be a problem , even in in small phones . phd a: So , I 'm I 'm s so what is different between this and and what you phd c: It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh a es the estimation of the silence probabilities . phd c: So it 's it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large . professor b: What 's the latency ? phd c: Because the the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , the VAD is used , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ? professor b: I I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ? phd c: With two an two hundred and seventy . phd c: If Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation professor b: Oh . I the is this are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or phd c: The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , cleaning of the speech . phd c: Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is , professor b: One hundred milliseconds for smoothing . phd c: phd d: It 's like forty plus forty plus professor b: And then forty phd c: Mmm . phd c: Yeah , there are twenty that comes from There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . phd d: If you are using professor b: phd c: Plus the frame , phd d: t If you are using three frames phd c: so it 's two - twenty . phd d: If you are phrasing f using three frames , it is thirty here for delta . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine nine frames of professor b: And then ten milliseconds for phd d: Fi - There 's an LDA filter . professor b: ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ? phd c: For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty Yeah , well , it 's I guess it 's for the fr the professor b: OK . And then there 's delta besides that ? phd c: So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , main feature stream , professor b: OK . phd c: which is , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds . No , the after the noise part , the forty the the other hundred and eighty Well , Wait a minute . Some of this is , is , is in parallel , isn't it ? , the LDA Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - , VAD ? Or phd c: The VAD use , LDA filtered features also . professor b: so the delta at the end is how much ? phd c: It 's fifty . So phd c: But well , we could probably put the delta , before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference , phd a: What if you used a smaller window for the delta ? phd c: because phd a: Could that help a little bit ? , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to phd c: Yeah . phd c: Yeah , professor b: So phd c: but , nnn professor b: Yeah . So if you if you put the delta before the , ana on - line If Yeah phd c: phd c: Cuz i professor b: And then y then you don't have that additive phd c: Yeah , phd d: Yep . phd c: cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window , professor b: OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , sh pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? phd a: Is two hundred the d professor b: The hundred milla phd c: It could be eighty and and probably do @ @ phd c: Yeah , phd a: i a hun phd c: yeah . phd a: Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ? professor b: Well , we don't know . professor b: if it 's two if if it 's , if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could we could , meet it by moving the delta back . phd a: So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ? professor b: we don't , but it 's just , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it . professor b: And so , th , if if if a week before we have to be done someone says , " Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now " , it would be pretty frantic around here . professor b: phd a: But still , that 's that 's a pretty big , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're in terms of your delay , you 're , that professor b: He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were we were had were able to have the noise , stuff , and the LVA be in parallel . phd c: Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so . phd d: Yeah , the LDA LDA we don't know , is , like is it very crucial for the features , right ? phd c: No . professor b: so you could start pulling back , phd d: S s h professor b: but phd d: Yeah , professor b: But I think you have phd d: l professor b: you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ? phd c: Mmm . Well , in the proposal , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think . professor b: So , what you have now is fort , forty for the the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel , phd c: professor b: right ? So I think , phd c: professor b: you know , that 's that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ? phd c: Yeah . professor b: and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but , we 're s we 're not we 're not in terrible shape . professor b: It 's it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something . phd a: Where where is this where is this fifty - seven point O two in in comparison to the last evaluation ? professor b: Well , it 's I think it 's better than anything , anybody got . Yeah , and r and phd c: It would phd d: Yeah , so this is this is like the first proposal . , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but phd a: Yeah . professor b: but but , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So , our , Yeah , you can see the kind of kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , I think it 's just sort of sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction , professor b: Yeah . So actually , this is in between what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ? phd d: Yeah , it 's almost that . phd a: What was that ? Say that last part again ? phd c: So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , for dropping the frames , phd d: o o Or the best we can get . phd c: the best that we can get i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . phd a: So that would be even That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ? phd c: Yeah . So you you were get phd c: If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech , phd a: Yeah . phd c: then you wou you would go phd a: So that 's sort of the best you could hope for . professor b: And , and sixty - two with the the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . phd c: yeah , the next thing is , I started to play Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , cleaned MFCC . phd a: Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ? phd c: I don't have the comp Mmm ? phd a: Those two ? phd c: So there is just this feature stream , the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta . phd a: Yeah ? phd c: so it 's makes forty - five features that are used as input to the HTK . professor b: cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative , phd c: Yeah . Right now it seems that i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . , professor b: y phd c: like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case . professor b: You 're just using the full ninety features ? phd c: The professor b: Y you have ninety features ? phd c: i I have , From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . It 's i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . phd c: But we have to for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features . phd a: So , it seems funny that I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , but that adding features I guess I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then professor b: Well , yeah . professor b: But , just in general , adding information Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise . professor b: Right ? So so , Or or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier . professor b: Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel professor b: - huh . professor b: So , " highly mismatched condition " means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test . professor b: So having having , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , make things worse . If you have if you have , lots and lots of data , and you have and your your your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . professor b: So I wonder , Well , what 's your what 's your thought about what to do next with it ? phd c: I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the professor b: phd c: Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , noises , added . phd c: professor b: Well , we might , we might have to experiment with , better training sets . professor b: I The other thing is , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different The rest of it is different , right ? So , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other other path ? phd c: professor b: You don't necessarily know what phd a: What if you did the Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the phd c: Yeah . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it we we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT . phd c: And phd a: So you tried the global KLT before phd c: Well phd a: and it didn't really phd c: Yeah . phd c: The differences between these configurations were not huge , but it was marginally better with this configuration . professor b: And I guess if the These are all so all of these seventy - three features are going into , the , the . professor b: And is are i i are are any deltas being computed of tha of them ? phd c: Of the straight features , yeah . phd c: So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as Dan did in in his last work . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , now I lost track of what I was thinking . phd a: What is the You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ? phd c: phd a: What 's the relation between that limit and the , forty - eight , forty eight hundred bits per second ? professor b: Oh , I know what I was gonna say . phd a: So I I I don't understand , phd c: The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features . phd a: because i , if you 're only using h phd c: And generally , i it s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , cepstrum . professor b: The issue was that , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it it might be a concern how many parameters are use u used and so forth . What I was going to say is that , maybe maybe with the noise removal , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another . professor b: And , they 're being fed into these , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and and , phd c: professor b: so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , have , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it . phd d: What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ? phd c: It 's , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . So we found this this , this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good . professor b: So that 's i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is is just improving the training set . professor b: we were getting , lots better recognition using that , than Of course , you do have the problem that , u i we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , or anything to , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something . phd a: So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ? professor b: Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train . professor b: We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount , phd a: Right . , phd a: What what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ? phd c: It 's TIMIT with noise . phd c: So , yeah , it 's rather a small professor b: How big is the net , by the way ? phd c: it 's , five hundred hidden units . And professor b: And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it and that was that was sort of the threshold point . @ @ ? phd d: So is it is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , cleaning up that you that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ? phd c: phd d: So it 's i All the noises are from the TI - digits , phd c: Yeah . phd d: right ? So you i phd c: They k phd d: Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the the training set of TIMIT after clean s after you do the noise clean - up . phd d: So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net . phd d: But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ? phd c: Yeah . phd d: And is it something to do with the mismatch that that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch phd c: You mean the the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than phd d: professor b: but , you 're saying Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy . phd d: Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . phd d: And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car . professor b: Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation . phd c: Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we the problem was already there before . phd c: Because Mmm professor b: Yeah , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set . professor b: Right ? , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before , phd d: . professor b: but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch . professor b: So , this may be Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . I I just that could be seen from the TI - digits , testing condition because , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise phd c: Yeah . So phd d: So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch high mismatch like this phd c: Clean training , yeah . professor b: the Macrophone data , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but I think it 's it 's varied enough that if if doing this adjustments , and playing around with it doesn't , make it better , the most , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . , what we were the condition It it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , what we were going on here . But it was just I think just having a a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing . phd c: Yeah , actually to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . phd c: When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know how to interpret that , but , mmm professor b: Yeah . phd c: t phd a: And and did an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ? phd c: They p stayed the same , phd a: Roughly ? phd c: they maybe they are a little bit , lower . But professor b: Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ? phd c: professor b: And it Remind me again , the " highly mismatched " means that the phd c: Clean training and professor b: sorry ? phd c: It 's clean training Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , high speed , I think . professor b: Close mike training phd c: Well The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing . phd c: The feature are the same except that professor b: that 's right , that 's right . phd a: Well that that says that , you know , the , the models in in , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features . professor b: But , yeah , actually the TIMIT noises are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's it 's pretty different . " phd c: " Subway " , right ? and phd d: " Street " or " Airport " or something . phd c: So it 's mostly Well , " Car " is stationary , professor b: phd c: " Babble " , it 's a stationary background plus some voices , professor b: professor b: Well , I I think that if you run it Actually , you maybe you remember this . When you in in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , with the the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ? phd c: professor b: Was it about the same ? , w i phd c: It was b a little bit worse . professor b: So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and all these things , then professor b: They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing . phd c: Yeah , professor b: And and the thing I I have in mind is , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse . You know ? And , But if on the ha other hand , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and and and , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a of a , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow . professor b: If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on on , improving the the net . professor b: So what 's the overall effe , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's but of course that one 's weighted lower , phd c: Y yeah , oh . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . phd d: Well , it will overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five point two five eight . So the so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four , phd d: Is it like professor b: and and , in fact since the others are somewhat better phd d: Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same . phd a: In the , a lot of the , the Hub - five systems , recently have been using LDA . So there 's the the LDA is is right there before the H M phd d: Yeah . phd a: So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process . The LDA that you saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , and then do an LDA on it , phd a: Yeah . phd a: it 's you know , you 're just basically i phd d: Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency high cost frequency . So it 's like more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r phd a: Ah . So what i what about , i u what i w , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put ran the other kind of LDA , on your features right before they go into the ? phd d: it phd c: phd a: But , w but the other features that you have , th the non - tandem ones , phd c: . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but phd a: - huh . professor b: The a the argument i is kind of i in and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , we always have the prob , discriminative things are good . professor b: they 're good because you you you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . It PAC - PCA low - order PCA throws away pieces that are , maybe not not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically . professor b: But , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is is something else . professor b: And so , Stephane 's idea was , let 's feed , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make , phd a: Yeah . professor b: and then , you you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that that doesn't have that , phd a: - huh . And that that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the , what , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he he when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was was it didn't help at all in this particular case . But by having them both there The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you . professor b: And some of the time it 's going to hurt you , phd a: Right . professor b: and by combining two information sources if , you know if if phd a: So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that professor b: That i i I think that 's counter to that idea . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that . professor b: and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA . , we , we were getting ready to do the tandem , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , " Well , yeah , that i you know th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path . phd a: You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . professor b: or tha that 's a phd a: That 's what that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . phd a: it everybody believes it , professor b: Oh , no it 's a g phd a: but you know , we just professor b: No , no , but it might not not even be true . professor b: it 's it 's it 's it 's it 's a great idea . , one of the things that always disturbed me , in the the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , a lot of people Because neural nets were pretty easy to to use a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , looking at all into the linear , versions of them . professor b: And , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and You know , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it . phd a: Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this , professor b: Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years , phd a: but . professor b: but but but , phd a: Yeah , what is it 's it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , you know , LDA on their features . phd c: It 's the transformation they 're estimating on Well , they are trained on the same data as the final are . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that that you guys have . phd a: So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea . professor b: part of why I I think part of why you were getting into the KLT Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , you know , getting good orthogonal features was and combining the the different temporal ranges was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying I think you r , this is it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ? phd c: phd d: So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , with full band and multiple bands , m ps separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it if it can professor b: phd d: just like Which means that it 's it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD , professor b: phd d: so , professor b: But i d I 'm sorry , phd d: so u professor b: does it still have the median filter stuff ? phd d: It still has the median filter . professor b: So it still has most of the delay , phd d: So professor b: it just doesn't phd d: Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . professor b: Well , w i phd d: At the input of the neural net you have this , f nine frames of context plus the delta . phd d: so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output . So the the di the biggest The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car professor b: phd d: and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish . So there are there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds . phd d: So The I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the after the p clean up maybe , some , correlation auto - correlation or some s additional features of to mainly the improvement of the VAD . professor b: Now this this this , " before and after clean " , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That that , it you th think that the , the i it appears to be a good feature , right ? phd d: phd c: Yeah , eventually we could could just phd d: Yeah , so Yeah , so that 's the Yeah . phd d: Because they did that itself phd c: Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and phd d: There 's a threshold and Yeah . So if we if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then then that would be a , good thing . professor b: anybody has anybody you guys or or Naren , somebody , tried the , second th second stream thing ? . phd d: Oh , I just I just h put the second stream in place and , ran one experiment , but just like just to know that everything is fine . phd d: So it was like , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel log mel . phd d: And and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement . phd d: So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is But I I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is is is , put it into another neural net . phd d: The , other thing I was wondering was , if the neural net , has any because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional some four plus some f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually , phd c: phd d: instead of just h having c , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like The the We have the VAD flag . , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it it has some additional discriminating information at the input ? phd c: - ! professor b: Wh - , the the VAD what ? phd d: We have the VAD information also available at the back - end . phd d: So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes professor b: Yeah . phd d: Because most of it is sil , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ? professor b: So , by having an additional , feature which says " this is speech and this is nonspeech " , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net . phd a: What Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ? phd d: Well , we have we are transferring the VAD to the back - end feature to the back - end . phd d: Which is which is certainly giving a phd a: So you 're saying , feed that , also , into the neural net . The other thing you could do is just , p modify the , output probabilities of the of the , neural net , tandem neural net , based on the fact that you have a silence probability . professor b: So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize . professor b: But but , phd c: Yeah , so maybe , yeah , when phd a: But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ? professor b: Well , u Not sure . " Or you can say , " It 's silence ! Go away ! " , i Doesn't ? I think I think the second one sounds a lot more direct . So , what if you then , since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ? professor b: Well , phd c: That 's what phd a: Well , I guess that 's the same . professor b: Yeah , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously , phd a: But , train the net only on professor b: but it 's @ @ Well , no , you want to train on on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to to to generate , that it 's it has to distinguish between . phd a: But , if you 're gonna if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , would then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ? professor b: Well , yeah . Now the only thing that that bothers me about all this is that I I I The the fact i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions . But So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , professor b: Is too high . So maybe So phd c: If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by i by something ? phd d: It may not be it professor b: Yeah . phd d: Yeah , it it may be too it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , flat probability . phd d: So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech phd c: yeah . phd a: Be interesting to look at the Yeah , for the I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the the other ones , do you do you see more peaks or something ? phd c: Yeah . phd c: or professor b: But I bu phd c: It it seems that the VAD network doesn't Well , it doesn't drop , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then professor b: Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system , phd c: u professor b: cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ? phd c: But phd d: But but I I guess phd a: But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ? phd d: well . professor b: It 's kind of done in , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the with a tandem net . So maybe , if that doesn't work , But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And and and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well . professor b: But that 's Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , causing deletions by having this silence probability up up too high , phd c: phd c: So , m professor b: Cuz Well , the V A if the VAD said since the VAD is is is right a lot , phd c: Yeah . Yeah , and the other thing Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , well , do we want to , w n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ? phd a: For the tandem net you mean ? phd c: Well , I 'm Yeah . phd c: I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he he trained a network , not on phoneme targets but on the state targets . professor b: Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary , phd c: Yeah . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and come up with a a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and and Yeah . But I d I d it it i it 's all worth looking at , phd c: professor b: but it sounds to me like , looking at the relationship between this and the speech noise stuff is is is probably a key thing . phd a: So if , if the , high mismatch case had been more like the , the other two cases in terms of giving you just a better performance , how would this number have changed ? phd c: If if i phd a: y Like sixty ? professor b: Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five . phd c: Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's s Right ? If everything is five percent . phd c: I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so phd a: Yeah . phd c: It 's running it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon , phd a: . Well So I won't be here for phd a: When When do you leave ? professor b: I 'm leaving next Wednesday . , phd a: But you 're professor b: so I phd a: are you you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: This afternoon Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus . But , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . , phd a: What 's September sixth ? professor b: and , that 's during Eurospeech . Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . And and then , we 'll start up again with Dave and Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , twentieth . Thirteenth ? About a month ? phd a: So , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ? professor b: I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting starting next Wed - late next Wednesday . Is that right ? professor b: I won't it 's probably four because of is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . And the the third one won't probably won't be a meeting , cuz cuz , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here . So it 's just , the next two where there will be there , you know , may as well be meetings , phd a: OK . And then starting up on the thirteenth , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow . phd a: When is the evaluation ? November , or something ? professor b: Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth <doc-sep>grad h: Yeah , so if So if anyone hasn't signed the consent form , please do so . phd a: Now you won't be able to walk or ride your bike , huh ? professor d: OK . grad h: And , shall I go ahead and do some digits ? professor d: we were gonna do that at the end , remember ? grad h: OK , whatever you want . Just just to be consistent , from here on in at least , that that we 'll do it at the end . professor d: OK Well , it ju it might be that someone here has to go , postdoc f: Testing , one , two , three . So , I had asked actually anybody who had any ideas for an agenda to send it to me and no one did . professor d: postdoc f: From last time I wanted to The An iss one topic from last time . professor d: Right , s OK , so one item for an agenda is Jane has some some research to talk about , research issues . professor d: I have a list of things that I think were done over the last three months I was supposed to send off , and , I I sent a note about it to to Adam and Jane but I think I 'll just run through it also and see if someone thinks it 's inaccurate or insufficient . phd a: A list that you have to send off to who ? professor d: to , IBM . , And , Anything else ? anyone wants to talk about ? phd a: What about the , your trip , yesterday ? professor d: No . professor d: Cuz that 's Cuz that was all all about the , I I I can chat with you about that off - line . , And , Anything else ? Nothing else ? , there 's a , there is a a , telephone call tomorrow , which will be a conference call that some of us are involved in for a possible proposal . , we 'll talk we 'll talk about it next week if if something grad h: Do you want me to be there for that ? I noticed you C C ' ed me , but I wasn't actually a recipient . So it sounds like the the three main things that we have to talk about are , this list , Jane and Jane and Adam have some research items , and , other than that , anything , as usual , anything goes beyond that . OK , Jane , since since you were sort of cut off last time why don't we start with yours , make sure we get to it . postdoc f: OK , it 's it 's very eh it 's very brief , just let me just hand these out . So , if you 've looked at this you 've seen it before , so Basically , as you know , part of the encoding includes a mark that indicates an overlap . It 's not indicated with , tight precision , it 's just indicated that OK , so , It 's indicated to to so the people know what parts of sp which which stretches of speech were in the clear , versus being overlapped by others . So , I used this mark and , and , divided the I wrote a script which divides things into individual minutes , of which we ended up with forty five , and a little bit . postdoc f: And , What you can see is the number of overlaps and then to the right , whether they involve two speakers , three speakers , or more than three speakers . And , and , what I was looking for sp sp specifically was the question of whether they 're distributed evenly throughout or whether they 're bursts of them . And it looked to me as though , you know y this is just eh eh , this would this is not statistically verified , but it did look to me as though there are bursts throughout , rather than being localized to a particular region . The part down there , where there 's the maximum number of of , overlaps is an area where we were discussing whether or not it would be useful to indi to s to code stress , sentence stress as possible indication of , information retrieval . professor d: What was what 's the the parenthesized stuff that says , like e the first one that says six overlaps and then two point eight ? postdoc f: Oh , th That 's the per cent . postdoc f: So , six is , two point eight percent of the total number of overlaps in the session . postdoc f: At the very end , this is when people were , you know , packing up to go basically , there 's this final stuff , I think we I don't remember where the digits fell . postdoc f: So , i it seems like it goes through bursts but , that 's kind of it . postdoc f: Now , Another question is is there are there individual differences in whether you 're likely to be overlapped with or to overlap with others . And , again I want to emphasize this is just one particular one particular meeting , and also there 's been no statistical testing of it all , but I , I took the coding of the I , you know , my I had this script figure out , who was the first speaker , who was the second speaker involved in a two - person overlap , I didn't look at the ones involving three or more . And , this is how it breaks down in the individual cells of who tended to be overlapping most often with who who else , and if you look at the marginal totals , which is the ones on the right side and across the bottom , you get the totals for an individual . So , If you look at the bottom , those are the , numbers of overlaps in which Adam was involved as the person doing the overlapping and if you look I 'm sorry , but you 're o alphabetical , that 's why I 'm choosing you And then if you look across the right , then that 's where he was the person who was the sp first speaker in the pair and got overlap overlapped with by somebody . postdoc f: And , then if you look down in the summary table , then you see that , th they 're differences in whether a person got overlapped with or overlapped by . phd e: Yeah Yeah postdoc f: Yes , very true very true grad h: Normalized to how much postdoc f: it would be good to normalize with respect to that . Now on the table I did take one step toward , away from the raw frequencies by putting , percentages . So that the percentage of time of the of the times that a person spoke , what percentage eh , w so . Of the times a person spoke and furthermore was involved in a two two - person overlap , what percentage of the time were they the overlapper and what percent of the time were they th the overlappee ? And there , it looks like you see some differences , that some people tend to be overlapped with more often than they 're overlapped , but , of course , i e this is just one meeting , there 's no statistical testing involved , and that would be required for a for a finding of any kind of scientific reliability . professor d: S so , i it would be statistically incorrect to conclude from this that Adam talked too much or something . grad h: No no actually , that would be actually statistically correct , professor d: Yeah , yeah . And I 'm you know , I 'm I don't see a point of singling people out , professor d: B I I I rather enjoyed it , but but this postdoc f: now , this is a case where obviously phd a: But the numbers speak for themselves . postdoc f: Well , you know , it 's like I 'm not I 'm not saying on the tape who did better or worse grad h: Yes , that 's right , so you don't nee OK . postdoc f: because I don't think that it 's I you know , and and th here 's a case where of course , human subjects people would say be sure that you anonymize the results , and and , so , might as well do this . grad h: Yeah , when this is what This is actually when Jane sent this email first , is what caused me to start thinking about anonymizing the data . postdoc f: And actually , you know , the point is not about an individual , it 's the point about tendencies toward you know , different styles , different speaker styles . postdoc f: And it would be , you know of course , there 's also the question of what type of overlap was this , and w what were they , and i and I and I know that I can distinguish at least three types and , probably more , the general cultural idea which w , the conversation analysts originally started with in the seventies was that we have this strict model where politeness involves that you let the person finish th before you start talking , and and you know , w we know that an and they 've loosened up on that too s in the intervening time , that that that 's that 's viewed as being a culturally - relative thing , that you have the high - involvement style from the East Coast where people will overlap often as an indication of interest in what the other person is saying . phd b: Exactly ! postdoc f: Yeah , exactly ! phd e: Yeah postdoc f: Well , there you go . And and , you know , in contrast , so Deborah d and also Deborah Tannen 's thesis she talked about differences of these types , that they 're just different styles , and it 's you you can't impose a model of there of the ideal being no overlaps , and you know , conversational analysts also agree with that , so it 's now , universally a ag agreed with . And and , als , I can't say universally , but anyway , the people who used to say it was strict , now , don't . they they also you know , ack acknowledge the influence of sub of subcultural norms and cross - cultural norms and things . So , Then it beco though so just just superficially to give a couple ideas of the types of overlaps involved , I have at the bottom several that I noticed . So , there are backchannels , like what Adam just did now and , anticipating the end of a question and simply answering it earlier , and there are several of those in this in these data where phd b: postdoc f: because we 're people who 've talked to each other , we know basically what the topic is , what the possibilities are and w and we 've spoken with each other so we know basically what the other person 's style is likely to be and so and t there are a number of places where someone just answered early . And places also which I thought were interesting , where two or more people gave exactly th the same answer in unison different words of course but you know , the basically , you know everyone 's saying " yes " or you know , or ev even more sp specific than that . So , the point is that , overlap 's not necessarily a bad thing and that it would be im i useful to subdivide these further and see if there are individual differences in styles with respect to the types involved . professor d: Well , of course th the biggest , result here , which is one we 've we 've talked about many times and isn't new to us , but which I think would be interesting to show someone who isn't familiar with this is just the sheer number of overlaps . professor d: That that Right ? that that , phd e: Yes , yes ! postdoc f: Oh , OK interesting . professor d: here 's a relatively short meeting , it 's a forty forty plus minute meeting , and not only were there two hundred and fifteen overlaps but , I think there 's one one minute there where there where where there wasn't any overlap ? grad h: Hundred ninety - seven . professor d: it 's throughout this thing ? phd a: It 'd be interesting professor d: It 's You have postdoc f: Well , at the bottom , you have the bottom three . grad h: S n are postdoc f: So four four minutes all together with none none . phd a: But it w professor d: Oh , so the bottom three did have s stuff going on ? There was speech ? postdoc f: Yes , - huh . professor d: OK , so if the this phd a: It 'd be interesting to see what the total amount of time is in the overlaps , versus postdoc f: Yes , exactly and that 's that 's where Jose 's pro project comes in . phd e: Yeah , yeah , I h I have this that infor I have th that information now . professor d: Oh , about how much is it ? phd e: The the duration of eh of each of the overlaps . professor d: O oh , what 's what 's the what 's the average length ? phd e: M I I haven't averaged it now but , I I will , I will do the the study of the with the with the program with the , the different , the , nnn , distribution of the duration of the overlaps . professor d: You don't know ? OK , you you don you don't have a feeling for roughly how much it is ? Yeah . phd e: The duration is , the variation the variation of the duration is , very big on the dat phd a: postdoc f: I suspect that it will also differ , depending on the type of overlap involved . postdoc f: So backchannels will be very brief phd e: Because , on your surface eh a bit of zone of overlapping with the duration eh , overlapped and another very very short . phd e: i probably it 's very difficult to to because the the overlap is , on is only the in the final " S " of the of the the fin the the end the end word of the , previous speaker with the the next word of the the new speaker . phd e: I considered that 's an overlap but it 's very short , it 's an " X " with a and the idea is probably , eh when eh when eh , we studied th th that zone , eh eh , we h we have eh eh confusion with eh eh noise . phd e: With eh that fricative sounds , but I have new information but I have to to study . phd g: You split this by minute , so if an overlap straddles the boundary between two minutes , that counts towards both of those minutes . , so le let 's think about the case where A starts speaking and then B overlaps with A , and then the minute boundary happens . And let 's say that after that minute boundary , B is still speaking , and A overlaps with B , that would be a new overlap . But otherwise , let 's say B comes to the conclusion of of that turn without anyone overlapping with him or her , in which case there would be no overlap counted in that second minute . phd g: No , but suppose they both talk simultaneously both a a portion of it is in minute one and another portion of minute two . In that case , my c the coding that I was using since we haven't , incorporated Adam 's , coding of overlap yets , the coding of Yeah , " yets " is not a word . since we haven't incorporated Adam 's method of handling overl overlaps yet then that would have fallen through the cra cracks . It would be an underestimate of the number of overlaps because , I wou I wouldn't be able to pick it up from the way it was encoded so far . professor d: I I postdoc f: We just haven't done th the precise second to sec you know , second to second coding of when they occur . professor d: Let 's say that in in second fifty - seven of one minute , you start talking and I start talking and we ignore each other and keep on talking for six seconds . professor d: So we go over So we were we were talking over one another , and it 's just in each case , it 's just sort of one interval . Right ? postdoc f: - ? professor d: So , we talked over the minute boundary . professor d: OK , so that 's good , i I think , in the sense that I think Andreas meant the question , phd b: That 's that 's good , yeah , cuz the overall rate is phd c: phd g: Yeah . postdoc f: I should also say I did a simplifying , count in that if A was speaking B overlapped with A and then A came back again and overlapped with B again , I I didn't count that as a three - person overlap , I counted that as a two - person overlap , and it was A being overlapped with by D . postdoc f: Because the idea was the first speaker had the floor and the second person started speaking and then the f the first person reasserted the floor kind of thing . postdoc f: These are simplifying assumptions , didn't happen very often , there may be like three overlaps affected that way in the whole thing . grad h: Cuz i i I find it interesting that there were a large number of overlaps and they were all two - speaker . grad h: what I thought what I would have thought in is that when there were a large number of overlaps , it was because everyone was talking at once , but apparently not . postdoc f: Yeah , there 's a lot of backchannel , a lot o a lot of grad h: This is really interesting data . phd b: I think what 's really interesting though , it is before d saying " yes , meetings have a lot of overlaps " is to actually find out how many more we have than two - party . postdoc f: I think so too , I think phd b: Cuz in two - party conversations , like Switchboard , there 's an awful lot too if you just look at backchannels , if you consider those overlaps ? it 's also ver it 's huge . It 's just that people haven't been looking at that because they 've been doing single - channel processing for speech recognition . professor d: - ? phd b: So , the question is , you know , how many more overlaps do you have of , say the two - person type , by adding more people . professor d: Well , but see , I find it interesting even if it wasn't any more , phd b: So . professor d: because since we were dealing with this full duplex sort of thing in Switchboard where it was just all separated out we just everything was just nice , phd b: - ? professor d: so that so the issue is in in a situation where th that 's phd b: Well , it 's not really " nice " . So if you were actually having , depends what you 're doing , if Right now we 're do we have individual mikes on the people in this meeting . So the question is , you know " are there really more overlaps happening than there would be in a two - person party " . professor d: - ? phd b: And and there well may be , but professor d: Let let m let me rephrase what I 'm saying cuz I don't think I 'm getting it across . What what I what I shouldn't use words like " nice " because maybe that 's too i too imprecise . But what is that , in Switchboard , despite the many many other problems that we have , one problem that we 're not considering is overlap . And what we 're doing now is , aside from the many other differences in the task , we are considering overlap and one of the reasons that we 're considering it , you know , one of them not all of them , one of them is that w at least , you know I 'm very interested in the scenario in which , both people talking are pretty much equally audible , and from a single microphone . And so , in that case , it does get mixed in , and it 's pretty hard to jus to just ignore it , to just do processing on one and not on the other . phd b: I I agree that it 's an issue here but it 's also an issue for Switchboard and if you think of meetings being recorded over the telephone , which I think , you know , this whole point of studying meetings isn't just to have people in a room but to also have meetings over different phone lines . phd b: Maybe far field mike people wouldn't be interested in that but all the dialogue issues still apply , professor d: phd b: so if each of us was calling and having a meeting that way you kn you know like a conference call . And , just the question is , y you know , in Switchboard you would think that 's the simplest case of a meeting of more than one person , professor d: phd b: and I 'm wondering how much more overlap of the types that that Jane described happen with more people present . So it may be that having three people is very different from having two people or it may not be . professor d: I think what I 'm All I 'm s really saying is that I don't think we were considering that in Switchboard . But but but professor d: Were you ? grad h: Though it wasn't in the design . professor d: Were you were you were you were you measuring it ? , w w were phd b: There there 's actually to tell you the truth , the reason why it 's hard to measure is because of so , from the point of view of studying dialogue , which Dan Jurafsky and Andreas and I had some projects on , you want to know the sequence of turns . phd b: So what happens is if you 're talking and I have a backchannel in the middle of your turn , and then you keep going what it looks like in a dialogue model is your turn and then my backchannel , professor d: Yeah . professor d: Yeah ? phd b: So , for things like language modeling or dialogue modeling it 's We know that that 's wrong in real time . professor d: Yeah ? phd b: But , because of the acoustic segmentations that were done and the fact that some of the acoustic data in Switchboard were missing , people couldn't study it , but that doesn't mean in the real world that people don't talk that way . phd b: Well , we 've als professor d: And and and , you you maybe wanted to look at it before but , for these various technical reasons in terms of how the data was you weren't . professor d: So that 's why it 's coming to us as new even though it may well be you know , if your if your hypothes The hypothesis you were offering eh phd b: . professor d: Right ? if it 's the null poth hypothesis , and if actually you have as much overlap in a two - person , we don't know the answer to that . The reason we don't know the answer to is cuz it wasn't studied and it wasn't studied because it wasn't set up . Right ? phd b: Yeah , all I meant is that if you 're asking the question from the point of view of what 's different about a meeting , studying meetings of , say , more than two people versus what kinds of questions you could ask with a two - person meeting . professor d: - ? phd b: It 's important to distinguish that , you know , this project is getting a lot of overlap but other projects were too , but we just couldn't study them . Right ? phd b: Well , there is a high rate , professor d: We do kn we don't know the numbers . It 's but I don't know how high , in fact phd a: Well , here I have a question . professor d: See , i i le let me t , my point was just if you wanted to say to somebody , " what have we learned about overlaps here ? " just never mind comparison with something else , phd b: professor d: what we 've learned about is overlaps in this situation , is that the first the first - order thing I would say is that there 's a lot of them . professor d: In in the sense that i if you said if i i i phd b: Yeah , I I don't di I agree with that . professor d: In a way , I guess what I 'm comparing to is more the common sense notion of how how much people overlap . you know the fact that when when when , Adam was looking for a stretch of of speech before , that didn't have any overlaps , and he w he was having such a hard time and now I look at this and I go , " well , I can see why he was having such a hard time " . All I 'm saying is that from the professor d: I 'm saying if I I 'm saying if I have this complicated thing in front of me , and we sh which , you know we 're gonna get much more sophisticated about when we get lots more data , But Then , if I was gonna describe to somebody what did you learn right here , about , you know , the the modest amount of data that was analyzed I 'd say , " Well , the first - order thing was there was a lot of overlaps " . In fact and it 's not just an overlap bunch of overlaps second - order thing is it 's not just a bunch of overlaps in one particular point , but that there 's overlaps , throughout the thing . phd b: I 'm just saying that it may the reason you get overlaps may or may not be due to sort of the number of people in the meeting . phd b: because some of the data say Switchboard , which isn't exactly the same kind of context , these are two people who don't know each other and so forth , But we should still be able to somehow say what what is the added contra contribution to sort of overlap time of each additional person , or something like that . professor d: Yeah , that would be good to know , phd a: What professor d: but w we postdoc f: OK , now . postdoc f: And the reason is because I think there 's a limit there 's an upper bound on how many you can have , simply from the standpoint of audibility . postdoc f: children don't adjust so well , if a truck goes rolling past , adults will well , depending , but mostly , adults will will will hold off to what to finish the end of the sentence till the till the noise is past . postdoc f: And I think we generally do monitor things like that , about whether we whether our utterance will be in the clear or not . postdoc f: And partly it 's related to rhythmic structure in conversation , so , you know , you you t Yeah , this is d also , people tend to time their their their , when they come into the conversation based on the overall rhythmic , ambient thing . And and , just to finish this , that That I think that there may be an upper bound on how many overlaps you can have , simply from the standpoint of audibility and how loud the other people are who are already in the fray . Now if it 's just backchannels , people may be doing that with less intention of being heard , just sort of spontaneously doing backchannels , in which case that those might there may be no upper bound on those . phd g: I I have a feeling that backchannels , which are the vast majority of overlaps in Switchboard , don't play as big a role here , because it 's very unnatural I think , to backchannel if in a multi - audience you know , in a multi - person audience . It 's interesting , so if you watch people are going like Right right , like this here , phd g: Right . professor d: u phd g: But but , it 's sort of odd if one person 's speaking and everybody 's listening , and it 's unusual to have everybody going " - huh , - huh " professor d: Actually , I think I 've done it a fair number of times today . So so actually , That 's in part because the nodding , if you have visual contact , the nodding has the same function , but on the phone , in Switchboard you you that wouldn't work . Your mike is phd a: So , in the two - person conversations , when there 's backchannel , is there a great deal of overlap in the speech ? grad h: That is an earphone , so if you just put it so it 's on your ear . phd a: or Cuz my impression is sometimes it happens when there 's a pause , phd b: Yes . phd a: you know , like you you get a lot of backchannel , when somebody 's pausing phd b: Yes . phd b: Sorry , what were you saying ? phd a: It 's hard to do both , huh ? no , when when when there 's backchannel , just I was just listening , and and when there 's two people talking and there 's backchannel it seems like , the backchannel happens when , you know , the pitch drops and the first person phd b: Oh . phd a: and a lot of times , the first person actually stops talking and then there 's a backchannel and then they start up again , and so I 'm wondering about h I just wonder how much overlap there is . Is there a lot ? phd b: I think there 's a lot of the kind that Jose was talking about , where , this is called " precision timing " in conversation analysis , where they come in overlapping , but at a point where the information is mostly complete . So all you 're missing is some last syllables or something or the last word or some highly predictable words . phd a: But maybe a just a small overlap ? phd b: But you know , from information flow point of view it 's not an overlap in the predictable information . phd g: So so phd b: Well , that 's exactly , exactly why we wanted to study the precise timing of overlaps ins in Switchboard , professor d: Yeah . , to distinguish between , say , backchannels precision timing Sort of you know , benevolent overlaps , and and and w and and sort of , I don't know , hostile overlaps , where someone is trying to grab the floor from someone else . I ju I I think that in this meeting I really had the feeling that wasn't happening , that the hostile hostile type . phd g: I could imagine that as there 's a fair number of cases where , and this is sort of , not really hostile , but sort of competitive , where one person is finishing something and you have , like , two or three people jumping trying to trying to trying to , grab the next turn . phd g: And so it 's not against the person who talks first because actually we 're all waiting for that person to finish . professor d: I have a feeling most of these things are that that are not a benevolent kind are are are , are are competitive as opposed to real really really hostile . phd a: postdoc f: Well , there are various things , you you have the professor d: a vote vote in Florida . phd e: Voting for professor d: o one thing I I wanted to or you can tell a good joke and then everybody 's laughing and you get a chance to g break in . You know , the other thing I was thinking was that , these all these interesting questions are , of course , pretty hard to answer with , u you know , a small amount of data . professor d: So , I wonder if what you 're saying suggests that we should make a conscious attempt to have , a a fair number of meetings with , a smaller number of people . Right ? we most of our meetings are , meetings currently with say five , six , seven , eight people Should we really try to have some two - person meetings , or some three - person meetings and re record them just to to to beef up the the statistics on that ? postdoc f: That 's a control . Well , it seems like there are two possibilities there , i it seems like if you have just two people it 's not really , y like a meeting , w is not as similar as the rest of the of the sample . It depends on what you 're after , of course , but It seems like that would be more a case of the control condition , compared to , an experimental condition , with more than two . professor d: Well , Liz was raising the question of of whether i it 's the number there 's a relationship between the number of people and the number of overlaps or type of overlaps there , postdoc f: professor d: and , If you had two people meeting in this kind of circumstance then you 'd still have the visuals . professor d: Yeah , acoustic is fine , but phd g: If if the goal were to just look at overlap you would you could serve yourself save yourself a lot of time but not even transcri transcribe the words . phd b: Well , I was thinking you should be able to do this from the acoustics , on the close - talking mikes , grad h: Yep . grad h: Well , that 's the that was my my status report , phd b: right ? postdoc f: You 've been working on that . , not as well as what , you wouldn't be able to have any kind of typology , obviously , professor d: Yeah . professor d: But what what do you think about that ? Do you think that would be useful ? I 'm just thinking that as an action item of whether we should try to record some two - person meetings or something . phd b: I guess my my first comment was , only that we should n not attribute overlaps only to meetings , but maybe that 's obvious , maybe everybody knew that , professor d: Yeah . phd b: but that in normal conversation with two people there 's an awful lot of the same kinds of overlap , and that it would be interesting to look at whether there are these kinds of constraints that Jane mentioned , that what maybe the additional people add to this competition that happens right after a turn , professor d: phd b: you know , because now you can have five people trying to grab the turn , but pretty quickly there 're they back off and you go back to this sort of only one person at a time with one person interrupting at a time . To answer your question I it I don't think it 's crucial to have controls but I think it 's worth recording all the meetings we can . phd b: D I wouldn't not record a two - person meeting just because it only has two people . phd g: Could we Could we , we have have in the past and I think continue will continue to have a fair number of phone conference calls . phd g: And , and as a to , as another c c comparison condition , we could see what what what happens in terms of overlap , when you don't have visual contact . phd g: So , phd b: Can we actually record ? grad h: It just seems like that 's a very different thing than what we 're doing . phd g: Or , this is getting a little extravagant , we could put up some kind of blinds or something to to remove , visual contact . grad h: Barriers ! phd b: That 's what they did on Map Task , you know , this Map Task corpus ? They ran exactly the same pairs of people with and without visual cues and it 's quite interesting . professor d: Well , we we record this meeting so regularly it wouldn't be that a little strange . That would professor d: Oh , th that was the other thing , weren't we gonna take a picture at the beginning of each of these meetings ? grad h: what I had thought we were gonna do is just take pictures of the whiteboards . phd a: Why why do we want to have a picture of the meeting ? phd b: Ee - you mean , transc no postdoc f: The because you get then the spatial relationship of the speakers . postdoc f: And that could be phd g: Well , you could do that by just noting on the enrollment sheet the the seat number . phd a: We can can't you figure it out from the mike number ? grad h: No . And even the jacks , I 'm sitting here and the jack is over in front of you . phd g: Yeah , but It 's it would be trivial grad h: It would be another task . grad h: So I 'm gonna put little labels on all the chairs with the seat number . grad h: But , phd g: Put them Like , put them on the table where they phd e: The chair Yeah . postdoc f: But you know , they the s the linguistic anthropologists would say it would be good to have a digital picture anyway , phd a: Just remembered a joke . Posture , and we could like , you know , block out the person 's face or whatever phd g: What people were wearing . postdoc f: but but , you know , these are important cues , phd g: Oh , Andreas was phd a: How big their heads are . postdoc f: the the how a person is sitting is professor d: But if you just f But from one picture , I don't know that you really get that . postdoc f: It 'd be better than nothing , is is i Just from a single picture I think you can tell some aspects . professor d: Think so ? postdoc f: I I could tell you , if I if I 'm in certain meetings I notice that there are certain people who really do eh The body language is very is very interesting in terms of the dominance aspect . postdoc f: But it 's just , you know , the the body phd a: He agreed . postdoc f: you know ? grad h: Of course , the where we sit at the table , I find is very interesting , that we do tend to cong to gravitate to the same place each time . I 'm sitting here so that I can run into the room if the hardware starts , you know , catching fire or something . phd g: Oh , no , you you just like to be in charge , that 's why you 're sitting grad h: I just want to be at the head of the table . grad h: Yeah , I 've been playing with , using the close - talking mike to do to try to figure out who 's speaking . So my first attempt was just using thresholding and filtering , that we talked about about two weeks ago , and so I played with that a little bit , and it works O K , except that it 's very sensitive to your choice of your filter width and your threshold . So if you fiddle around with it a little bit and you get good numbers you can actually do a pretty good job of segmenting when someone 's talking and when they 're not . But if you try to use the same paramenters on another speaker , it doesn't work anymore , even if you normalize it based on the absolute loudness . phd b: But does it work for that one speaker throughout the whole meeting ? grad h: It does work for the one speaker throughout the whole meeting . grad h: What do you mean ? phd a: wh what was the grad h: The algorithm was , take o every frame that 's over the threshold , and then median - filter it , and then look for runs . grad h: So there was a minimum run length , phd a: Every frame that 's over what threshold ? grad h: so that A threshold that you pick . grad h: So you take a each frame , and you compute the energy and if it 's over the threshold you set it to one , and if it 's under the threshold you set it to zero , so now you have a bit stream of zeros and ones . well , actually I guess depends on what you mean by long , you know , tenth of a second sorts of numbers . and that 's to average out you know , pitch , you know , the pitch contours , and things like that . postdoc f: OK grad h: And that works O K , if you fil if you tune the filter parameters , if you tune how long your median filter is and how high you 're looking for your thresholds . phd a: Did you ever try running the filter before you pick a threshold ? grad h: No . OK and then the other thing I did , was I took Javier 's speaker - change detector acoustic - change detector , and I implemented that with the close - talking mikes , and unfortunately that 's not working real well , and it looks like it 's the problem is he does it in two passes , the first pass is to find candidate places to do a break . And he does that using a neural net doing broad phone classification and he has the the , one of the phone classes is silence . And what looks like it 's happening is that the even on the close - talking mike the broad phone class classifier 's doing a really bad job . Does an do you remember , Morgan , was it Broadcast News ? professor d: I think so , yeah . grad h: So , at any rate , my next attempt , which I 'm in the midst of and haven't quite finished yet was actually using the , thresholding as the way of generating the candidates . Because one of the things that definitely happens is if you put the threshold low you get lots of breaks . But , like , it could be someone who isn't the person here , but the person over there or it can be the person breathing . But all of this is close - talking mike , so it 's , just just trying to get some ground truth . phd e: Only with eh , but eh I I I think , eh when when , y I I saw the the the the speech from PDA and , eh close talker . phd e: but eh I but eh I I that eh eh in the in the mixed file you can find , zone with , eh great different , eh level of energy . not phd e: I I think for , eh algorithm based on energy , eh , that h mmm , more or less , eh , like eh eh , mmm , first sound energy detector . When y you the detect the the the first at at the end of of the detector of , ehm princ . What is the the name in English ? the the , mmm , the de detector of , ehm of a word in the in the s in an isolated word in in the background That , grad h: I 'm I 'm not sure what you 're saying , can you try phd e: that when when you use , eh eh any phd a: I think he 's saying the onset detector . phd e: I I think it 's probably to work well eh , because , eh you have eh , in the mixed files a great level of energy . And probably is not so easy when you use the the PDA , eh that Because the signal is , eh the in the e energy level . I think that , grad h: Ah , in the clo in the P D A , you mean ? phd e: In the PDA . I think the , nnn , the , nnn , that the idea of using a neural network to to get a broad class of phonetic , eh from , eh a candidate from the the the speech signal . If you have , eh , I 'm considering , only because Javier , eh only consider , eh like candidate , the , nnn , eh the silence , because it is the the only model , eh eh , he used that , eh eh nnn , to detect the the possibility of a a change between the between the speaker , grad h: Right . phd e: another another research thing , different groups , eh working , eh on Broadcast News prefer to , eh to consider hypothesis eh between each phoneme . phd e: Because , I I I think it 's more realistic that , only consider the the the the silence between the speaker . phd e: I I found that the , eh silence in in many occasions in the in the speech file , but , eh when you have , eh eh , two speakers together without enough silence between between them , eh I think eh is better to use the acoustic change detector basically and I I I IX or , mmm , BIC criterion for consider all the frames in my opinion . Yeah , the you know , the reason that he , just used silence was not because he thought it was better , it was it was it was the place he was starting . professor d: and , e e you know , as as as is in your case , if you 're here for only a modest number of months you try to pick a realistic goal , phd e: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: But his his goal was always to proceed from there to then allow broad category change also . But , eh do do you think that if you consider all the frames to apply the the , eh the BIC criterion to detect the the the different acoustic change , eh between speaker , without , with , silence or with overlapping , I think like like , eh eh a general , eh eh way of process the the acoustic change . phd e: An - and then , eh eh without considering the you you you , you can consider the energy like a another parameter in the in the feature vector , eh . And if , if you do that , eh eh , with a BIC criterion for example , or with another kind of , eh of distance in a first step , and then you , eh you get the , eh the hypothesis to the this change acoustic , eh to po process grad h: Right . phd e: Because , eh eh , probably you you can find the the eh a small gap of silence between speaker with eh eh a ga mmm , small duration Less than , eh two hundred milliseconds for example professor d: phd e: and apply another another algorithm , another approach like , eh eh detector of ene , eh detector of bass - tone energy to to consider that , eh that , eh zone . of s a small silence between speaker , or another algorithm to to process , eh the the segment between marks eh founded by the the the BIC criterion and applied for for each frame . phd e: I think is , eh nnn , it will be a an an a more general approach the if we compare with use , eh a neural net or another , eh speech recognizer with a broad class or or narrow class , because , in my opinion eh it 's in my opinion , eh if you if you change the condition of the speech , if you adjust to your algorithm with a mixed speech file and to , eh to , eh adapt the neural net , eh used by Javier with a mixed file . phd e: With a m mixed file , grad h: With the what file ? phd a: " Mixed " . And and then you you , eh you try to to apply that , eh , eh , eh , speech recognizer to that signal , to the PDA , eh speech file , I I think you will have problems , because the the the the condition you you will need t t I I suppose that you will need to to to retrain it . professor d: u Look , I I think this is a One once It 's a I used to work , like , on voiced on voice silence detection , you know , and this is this kind of thing . professor d: If you have somebody who has some experience with this sort of thing , and they work on it for a couple months , they can come up with something that gets most of the cases fairly easily . Then you say , " OK , I don't just wanna get most of the cases I want it to be really accurate . So , the p the problem is is that if you say , " Well I I have these other data over here , that I learn things from , either explicit training of neural nets or of Gaussian mixture models or whatever . Well , what does that mean ? That that means you set some thresholds somewhere or something , phd e: Yeah . professor d: right ? and and so where do you get your thresholds from ? phd e: Yeah . So you always have this problem , you 're going to new data H how are you going to adapt whatever you can very quickly learn about the new data ? , if it 's gonna be different from old data that you have ? And I think that 's a problem with this . grad h: Well , also what I 'm doing right now is not intended to be an acoustic change detector for far - field mikes . What I 'm doing is trying to use the close - talking mike and just use Can - and just generate candidate and just try to get a first pass at something that sort of works . phd g: Or grad h: and I haven't spent a lot of time on it and I 'm not intending to spend a lot of time on it . phd g: but , I can imagine building a model of speaker change detection that takes into account both the far - field and the actually , not just the close - talking mike for that speaker , but actually for all of th for all of the speakers . phd g: If you model the the effect that me speaking has on your microphone and everybody else 's microphone , as well as on that , and you build , basically I think you 'd you would build a an that has as a state space all of the possible speaker combinations grad h: All the Yep . professor d: But Actually , Andreas may maybe maybe just something simpler but but along the lines of what you 're saying , grad h: Anyway . professor d: I was just realizing , I used to know this guy who used to build , mike mixers automatic mike mixers where , you know , t in order to able to turn up the gain , you know , as much as you can , you you you lower the gain on on the mikes of people who aren't talking , phd g: Mmm . professor d: right ? And then he had some sort of reasonable way of doing that , phd g: professor d: but , what if you were just looking at very simple measures like energy measures but you don't just compare it to some threshold overall but you compare it to the energy in the other microphones . grad h: I was thinking about doing that originally to find out who 's the loudest , and that person is certainly talking . I I have found that when when I I analyzed the the speech files from the , eh mike , eh from the eh close eh microphone , eh I found zones with a a different level of energy . because , eh eh depend on the position of the of the microph of the each speaker to , eh , to get more o or less energy i in the mixed sign in the signal . and then , if you consider energy to to detect overlapping in in , and you process the the in the the the speech file from the the the mixed signals . I I think it 's it 's difficult , only to en with energy to to consider that in that zone We have eh , eh , overlapping zone Eh , if you process only the the energy of the , of each frame . professor d: Well , it 's probably harder , but I I think what I was s nnn noting just when he when Andreas raised that , was that there 's other information to be gained from looking at all of the microphones and you may not need to look at very sophisticated things , phd e: Yeah . professor d: because if there 's if most of the overlaps you know , this doesn't cover , say , three , but if most of the overlaps , say , are two , if the distribution looks like there 's a couple high ones and and the rest of them are low , phd e: Yeah . professor d: by the way , I had an idea with while I was watching Chuck nodding at a lot of these things , is that we can all wear little bells on our heads , so that then you 'd know that phd e: Yeah . That 's cute ! phd b: I think that 'd be really interesting too , with blindfolds . The question is , like whether grad h: " what are you nodding about ? " phd b: Well , trying with and with and without , yeah . phd a: Actually , I saw a a woman at the bus stop the other day who , was talking on her cell phone speaking Japanese , and was bowing . phd b: It 's very difficult if you try while you 're trying , say , to convince somebody on the phone it 's difficult not to move your hands . I still think we should try a a meeting or two with the blindfolds , at least of this meeting that we have lots of recordings of grad h: phd b: maybe for part of the meeting , we don't have to do it the whole meeting . It 'll be too hard to make barriers , I was thinking because they have to go all the way professor d: W Yeah . postdoc f: Actually well also I I can say I made barr barriers for so that the stuff I was doing with Collin wha which just used , this kind of foam board . You can you can masking tape it together , these are you know , pretty l large partitions . phd b: But then we also have these mikes , is the other thing I was thinking , so we need a barrier that doesn't disturb the sound , postdoc f: It 's true , it would disturb the , the the long - range grad h: The acoustics . phd b: it sounds weird but but you know it 's it 's cheap and , Be interesting to have the camera going . grad h: Yeah , that 's right , we didn't tell them we would be blindfolding . professor d: That 's postdoc f: " Do you mind being blindfolded while you 're interviewed ? " professor d: that 's that 's that 's the one that we videotape . I did have this other agenda item which is , @ @ it 's a list which I sent to a couple folks , but I wanted to get broader input on it , So this is the things that I think we did in the last three months obviously not everything we did but but sort of highlights that I can can tell s some outside person , you know , what what were you actually working on . in no particular order , one , ten more hours of meeting r meetings recorded , something like that , you know from from , three months ago . , pilot data put together and sent to IBM for transcription , next batch of recorded data put together on the CD - ROMs for shipment to IBM , grad h: Hasn't been sent yet , but It 's getting ready . human subjects approval on campus , and release forms worked out so the meeting participants have a chance to request audio pixelization of selected parts of the spee their speech . preliminary analysis of overlaps in the pilot data we have transcribed , and exploratory analysis of long - distance inferences for topic coherence , that was I was wasn't sure if those were the right way that was the right way to describe that because of that little exercise that that you and and Lokendra did . postdoc f: What was that called ? professor d: I well , I I 'm probably saying this wrong , but what I said was exploratory analysis of long - distance inferences for topic coherence . so , I a lot of that was from , you know , what what what you two were doing so I I sent it to you , and you know , please mail me , you know , the corrections or suggestions for changing grad h: professor d: I I don't want to make this twice it 's length but but you know , just im improve it . professor d: " Bunch of stuff for s " OK , maybe maybe send me a sentence that 's a little thought through about that . grad h: So , OK , I 'll send you a sentence that doesn't just say " a bunch of " ? professor d: " Bunch of stuff " , yeah , " stuff " is probably bad too , grad h: Yep . and and you know , I sort of threw in what you did with what Jane did on in under the , preliminary analysis of overlaps . Thilo , can you tell us about all the work you 've done on this project in the last , last three months ? phd e: Yeah . Wh - what is " audio pixelization " ? professor d: audio pix wh he did it , so why don't you explain it quickly ? grad h: It 's just , beeping out parts that you don't want included in the meeting so , you know you can say things like , " Well , this should probably not be on the record , but beep " phd c: OK , OK . We we we spent a a a fair amount of time early on just talk dealing with this issue about op w e e we realized , " well , people are speaking in an impromptu way and they might say something that would embarrass them or others later " , and , how do you get around that phd c: OK . professor d: so in the consent form it says , well you we will look at the transcripts later and if there 's something that you 're unhappy with , yeah . professor d: But you don't want to just totally excise it because , well you have to be careful about excising it , how how you excise it keeping the timing right and so forth so that at the moment tho th the idea we 're running with is is h putting the beep over it . grad h: if someone is listening to it , there 's no mistake that it 's been beeped out , phd c: Yeah . You can you know , you could make a m as long as you keep using the same beep , people could make a model of that beep , postdoc f: . And I use it 's it 's , it 's an A below middle C beep , phd b: I think the beep is a really good idea . phd b: Also phd a: Yeah , it 's more obvious that there was something there than if there 's just silence . professor d: Yeah , that , he 's he 's removing the old thing phd e: Yeah professor d: and and and grad h: Yep . But if you just replaced it with silence , it 's not clear whether that 's really silence or grad h: Yeah , it 's not phd c: Yeah . postdoc f: Well , the other thing that you know , the the alternative might be to s grad h: Yeah . grad h: Sorry , and then the DARPA meeting I just excised completely , postdoc f: Yeah . professor d: Alright , so , I think we should , go on to the digits ? postdoc f: I have one concept a t I I want to say , which is that I think it 's nice that you 're preserving the time relations , grad h: OK . postdoc f: s so you 're you 're not just cutting you 're not doing scissor snips . phd b: So I guess if there 's an overlap , like , if I 'm saying something that 's bleepable and somebody else overlaps during it they also get bleeped , too ? professor d: Yeah . I d I did before we do the digits , I did also wanna remind people , please do send me , you know , thoughts for an agenda , grad h: Agenda ? professor d: yeah that that would be that 'd be good . professor d: Eh So that , people 's ideas don't get grad h: Thursday crept up on me this week . professor d: yeah , well it does creep up , doesn't it ? phd b: And , I wanted to say , I think this is really interesting analysis . grad h: I was gonna say " can you do that for the other meetings , phd b: It 's neat . phd a: Actually actually I I thought that 's what you were giving us was another meeting and I was like , " Oh , OK ! " phd b: Does it take postdoc f: Thank you . I have the script now , so , it can work off the , other thing , grad h: It 's As soon as we get labels , yep . phd a: But it has to be hand - labeled first ? postdoc f: but , well , yeah . postdoc f: But I I just worked off of my phd b: It 's really neat . I think what I what this has , caused me so this discussion caused me to wanna subdivide these further . I 'm gonna take a look at the , backchannels , how much we have anal I hope to have that for next time . grad h: Yeah , my my algorithm worked great actually on these , but when you wear it like that or with the , lapel or if you have it very far from your face , that 's when it starts failing . phd b: Well , I can wear it , if you grad h: It doesn't matter . grad h: right ? I I don't want to change the way we do the meeting . grad h: It 's so , it was just a comment on the software , not a comment on prescriptions on how you wear microphones . grad h: Get the bolts , " whh whh " postdoc f: Let 's do it . postdoc f: Do you want us to put a mark on the bottom of these when they 've actually been read , or do you just i i the only one that wasn't read is is known , so we don't do it

The team discussed the idea of conducting a cheating experiment to identify the most important features, recognizing that even if the results were not as impressive as expected, it would still be a valuable addition to their work. They proposed normalizing the features using a sigmoid function for their project. They also identified the distant microphone testing as the most noisy cases, where non-stationary background noises like car sounds, babble, or subway noise posed a unique challenge that could potentially be addressed with a neural network. Additionally, Grad H has been experimenting with using the close-talking microphone to determine the speaker. Their initial attempt involved thresholding and filtering, which proved to be sensitive to the choice of filter width and threshold. However, it effectively segmented when someone is speaking and when they are not.

What were the team's discussions about the cheating experiment and the most noisy cases, and what did they say about the experiments in general?

Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? kirsty williams am: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done—some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification—there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement—and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. julie morgan am: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? kirsty williams am: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. julie morgan am: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? kirsty williams am: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification—I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. julie morgan am: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—? kirsty williams am: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? kirsty williams am: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. andrew clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. lynne neagle am: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian. sian gwenllian am: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? kirsty williams am: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates— sian gwenllian am: Ten years? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. sian gwenllian am: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? kirsty williams am: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. sian gwenllian am: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? kirsty williams am: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. sian gwenllian am: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. kirsty williams am: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. lynne neagle am: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? kirsty williams am: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one— lynne neagle am: She wasn't. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? kirsty williams am: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. dawn bowden am: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. dawn bowden am: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. kirsty williams am: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well. lynne neagle am: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. suzy davies am: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now—that some students were being told, 'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.' I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said, 'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my "Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said, 'Under no circumstances are you to do that—no, that's not allowed.' This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be— suzy davies am: It's gaming. kirsty williams am: —denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. hefin david am: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that? kirsty williams am: I don't agree. hefin david am: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. kirsty williams am: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University— hefin david am: Who has influence over students. And, actually, Cardiff University—indeed, all Welsh universities—accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. hefin david am: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. kirsty williams am: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer—and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge—they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? kirsty williams am: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. hefin david am: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? kirsty williams am: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand—not via my officials, but first-hand—from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors—last year—with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. lynne neagle am: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail— hefin david am: No, I've said that. lynne neagle am: —we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. kirsty williams am: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. hefin david am: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? kirsty williams am: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics—some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative—that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities— hefin david am: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. What I’m saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. And therefore, I think it is a myth—I would go as far as to say that it’s a myth—that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. andrew clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. andrew clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don’t actually make it part of their offer. So, we’re still on a journey—that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. So, it isn’t just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. When it was a 'yes'/'no' qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. kirsty williams am: And that’s the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? kirsty williams am: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don’t regard it as a detriment to students. Siân wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. sian gwenllian am: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? hefin david am: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? sian gwenllian am: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. kirsty williams am: Well, it’s a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer—Welsh universities. sian gwenllian am: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can’t actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. kirsty williams am: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. suzy davies am: So, just briefly, you’ve said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it’s valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from—I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? kirsty williams am: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across—that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had—and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work—and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project—research based—qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work—those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. suzy davies am: Can I just add—? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities—which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. suzy davies am: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? kirsty williams am: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. suzy davies am: But not an obligation—that's the bit I'm trying to get at. kirsty williams am: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? kirsty williams am: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? kirsty williams am: Not at this stage. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well— suzy davies am: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say, 'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.' What we're saying is, 'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.' suzy davies am: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? kirsty williams am: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money—I think it was about £5 million that was going to the consortia in-year—will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? kirsty williams am: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. suzy davies am: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. kirsty williams am: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what . It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. kevin palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call 'the middle tier' to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning—so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. suzy davies am: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. lynne neagle am: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? kirsty williams am: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification—. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. lynne neagle am: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? kirsty williams am: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? kirsty williams am: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. janet finch-saunders am: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? kirsty williams am: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? kirsty williams am: Well, I don't think it's—. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. janet finch-saunders am: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. kirsty williams am: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? kirsty williams am: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. sian gwenllian am: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. lynne neagle am: Okay, you don't want to— suzy davies am: By all means you ask the others I had. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. kirsty williams am: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. suzy davies am: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? kirsty williams am: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? kirsty williams am: Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. lynne neagle am: What's a MOOC? [Laughter.] kirsty williams am: So, it is an online—a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? lynne neagle am: Okay. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? kirsty williams am: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. I think it's an individual case, this one— lynne neagle am: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? , that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. andrew clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? suzy davies am: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. hefin david am: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? lynne neagle am: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs— hefin david am: And it was obviously unanimous— lynne neagle am: —and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? darren millar am: Yes, I have a declaration of interest, Chair. I understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry. And, in addition, I'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video. So, item 2, then, today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils, which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers. The committee team has been out to take video evidence around Wales, and we're now going to watch the results of that on the screen. Well, I'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video. We'll move on now then to our evidence session, and I'm very pleased to welcome Gareth Pierce, chief executive of the WJEC, Mike Ebbsworth, assistant director educational support, WJEC, Philip Blaker, chief executive of Qualifications Wales, and Emyr George, associate director general qualifications at Qualifications Wales. So, thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions now, and if I can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in Wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and Welsh Government is. philip blaker: Shall I start? So, Qualifications Wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies, so we regulate awarding bodies. In regulating the awarding body, our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment. That said, when we are going through the design of the qualifications, we go through an approval process, so we develop approval criteria and we ask WJEC to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well. So, our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able, through the sample assessment materials and the specifications, to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations. So, that's setting out the knowledge, skills and understandings that will be assessed by WJEC when those exams are sat. So, during the last round of approvals, we pulled together interested parties in Welsh Government, regional consortia and WJEC to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources. Our other primary role is in maintaining standards. So, as the regulator of qualifications, what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so, the grades that people get—are fair. One of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so, the awarding process, the methods that will be used—and then we monitor WJEC's award of grades against those processes. During a period of change, we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach, largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this, where there's a change in a specification particularly, because there are any number of reasons, including resources, why performance may be different from one year to the next, but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that, all things being equal, if the cohorts have the same ability, the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next. Much of that has been related to the timelines that we've all had to deliver new specifications against, which have been far from ideal for everybody involved. We think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation isn't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness. In terms of the roles of others, Welsh Government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into Welsh medium. And there is, through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between England and Wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks. Now, that's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also, potentially, around a paradigm shift in what's expected of those materials. The WJEC does provide what's required in a regulatory sense, and there are two things there—the specification, which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching, and also exemplar assessments, which include marking, and those go to the regulator before they are published. The WJEC also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously. Each new course has substantial teaching guidance, which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils. And we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new, and then annually there is some charge for those events. Indeed, the regulations as they stand in Wales, Northern Ireland and England preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks, but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications. So, that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for Wales as we move forward, whether it would be possible—. As we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in Wales for GCSE and A-levels, in passing, that is something that I would want to suggest may deserve review. At the moment, these tend to be England-based—Hodder Education and Illuminate Education, for example—and then the Welsh Government does provide funding to the WJEC to support the process of providing Welsh-language versions for those textbooks. So, we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process, and also to pay for translation costs, and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology. We have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the WJEC, and we work closely with external translators too, and we use translation technology increasingly, which facilitates a great many things. Beyond that, I think the WJEC does see the need for flexibility, particularly when difficulties arise, and you heard there of some of the methods used by Mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions. And I should also note perhaps that, as the WJEC is very much involved with stakeholders, we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future. What is your view on that as a good use of teachers' time in Wales? gareth pierce: I think the question of translation is an interesting one. I think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because, as I mentioned earlier, there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time. Perhaps an interesting question is: is that source useful for teachers, being able to draw resources from two sources? Another interesting question, I think, is—. The Welsh language, of course, is a language that is used in an educational context, but we are in a big world that's an English language world. I'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies, as was mentioned in that video—they are available in English only. Therefore, I think another interesting question is: can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating? And, certainly, it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen Welsh-medium schools, for example, translating material from the same website independently of each other. If there are a few websites, or a few case studies, in this big external digital world that are worth translating, shouldn't we able to source those early? Because I don't think it's a good use of teachers' time. What is the vision in terms of teaching in a Welsh-medium class, in particular, perhaps, in the A-level classes? I'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages, as well as explaining those terms in their own language. But the impression I got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening, and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context. llyr gruffydd am: Just to pick up on your point on the additional materials, whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview, and then to respond to the demand? gareth pierce: Mike, in the WJEC, has conversations about resources in the team he's part of. That is extremely important—to identify, as Gareth has just said, those materials that need to be translated, and not everything needs to. We've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia, and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention. llyr gruffydd am: But would you—? The question I'm asking is: would you still see that as a core part of your work, although it's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you're required to provide? gareth pierce: Yes, we invest substantially from the WJEC budget into digital resources. So, through the types of conversations that Mike mentioned, in terms of identifying needs, deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas, that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation. llyr gruffydd am: And do we need further resources for that? gareth pierce: Well, it's an interesting question. The WJEC is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: Why isn't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen, then? gareth pierce: One can always do more, of course. The WJEC is trying to use its budget prudently, and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments. So, we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that Mike is undertaking. mike ebbsworth: There is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs, and that those are suited towards the requirements. Quite often a teacher—and I've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything. There has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years, and we've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment. lynne neagle am: Did you want to come in on any of this? philip blaker: I'm just going to say one thing. Teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources, and, in doing that, they'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language. I think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually, and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt. And what I wouldn't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse, different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative, which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate. But I think it is reasonable to expect for that core, common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default, and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that. The £500,000 funding for Welsh-medium educational resource that's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that's going to be spent? gareth pierce: Tthe WJEC has some information in terms of that budget. It is a Welsh Government budget, and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers, and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred. Now, there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources, and also, although this would be a very small part, a contribution towards seminars for publishers. But that isn't a full picture of the £500,000; I think you would have to ask the Welsh Government about the exact allocation of that total fund. We've just started this financial year; I'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource. We have contributed a list of publications, for example, that are ongoing, and they're aware of that, and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of Welsh. darren millar am: This is a huge mess, isn't it? It's a huge mess, which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers, lots of pressure and extra work for learners, and is affecting the well-being of students, at a time when they need to be mentally fit, in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up. We know that the problems are not confined to Welsh-medium resources; they're also being experienced in English language resources as well, particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks. You've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers, and I would agree with you on that front. But isn't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn, and swot up on, in advance of exams? gareth pierce: I think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently. But I think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them; perhaps the teacher uses them. There is an emphasis, for example, from one pupil there, on that traditional model of revision, namely class notes and his own revision notes, but that he personally also wanted a textbook. So, certainly, the content of a textbook is going to be important, and that that's available in some form or other. It was very interesting to know, for example, that when he was describing the traditional model of revision, he felt that he'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes. Much of that digital content, of course, corresponds to the content areas of a textbook, but it's just in a different form. And some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers don't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time. That doesn't happen so often in English medium, but we know about that gap in time in the Welsh provision. darren millar am: Well, it's happened fairly regularly in the English-medium textbook world, hasn't it? My daughter—she featured in that video—has got her RS qualifications coming up, and she only had a textbook over the Easter period. You mentioned digital resources; not everybody's got access to digital resources in their own homes, even, in Wales. So, aren't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook' method of revision and benefit from that? mike ebbsworth: We do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print. Most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use, to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time. If there are activities, then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home. gareth pierce: I think you're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture. The young people talk about websites and blogs, and we're talking about digital resources, so being able to reach those resources, I think, is vital in Wales. It's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters. One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work, while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable. Of course, the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that, in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables, we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later, but available digitally at an early stage. But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital, and access to that, and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well. darren millar am: Mr Blaker, you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification. philip blaker: I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest. darren millar am: So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students. darren millar am: But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort? philip blaker: The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination. darren millar am: I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important. gareth pierce: I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. darren millar am: I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly? gareth pierce: I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018. darren millar am: So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work? gareth pierce: Yes. philip blaker: I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by. gareth pierce: Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody. llyr gruffydd am: Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve? gareth pierce: That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work. lynne neagle am: Did you want to come in, Philip? philip blaker: I think one of the big differences is it's a tsunami we can see coming. So, young people will be assessed for the first time, assuming linear exams, in the summer 2027, which is some way away, and, actually, given the reform process historically, this is probably the most foresight we've seen of a big change like this. There is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum, because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum, so we do need to see something coming out of that. I think, for us, once we've seen the curriculum, and we've got better sight of it, we'll be able to plan things out. We've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications, and, ultimately, there'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made, probably in 2023, which would be that if the conditions don't appear right for safe implementation, then we would make a recommendation to Welsh Government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification, not in terms of the curriculum, for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up. So, we're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process, but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions. gareth pierce: Just one very brief comment in that context: I think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there. They emphasise, in the context of the curriculum, the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing, therefore I think we truly need to discuss that. Does that suggest that there won't be so much need for national resources, or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case? We need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail, I think. llyr gruffydd am: Yes, certainly, and one is concerned that that conversation isn't already happening, but, yes, okay, you've made that point clearly. If I could return, therefore, to the commercial issue—clearly, there is a shortage of providers in Wales, and we are reliant on others. You suggested that the WJEC may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed. I assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context. I think that I haven't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest: the interest is there, but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable, what the implications are of working in two languages, what kind of business model, perhaps, would be suitable for the publishers in Wales, how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work, because they would want to build their teams, and develop skills within those teams, and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing. And therefore, those are the sort of issues that we're starting a discussion on, in the hope of having a discussion in June to move that forward. Of course, Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion, not only WJEC, but we've been part of initiating that discussion. llyr gruffydd am: Is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing? gareth pierce: Yes, I think, and there is some enthusiasm. For example, a number of publishers in Wales are within an association describing itself as Cwlwm Cyhoeddwyr Cymru. Myrddin ap Dafydd is chair of Cwlwm at the moment, and there is enthusiasm and vision, certainly. So, there's a wonderful opportunity, I think, for Wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them. llyr gruffydd am: And we're talking here not just about translating but developing resources, and the point, I think, is an important one around some of the evidence that we've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning, rather than having to translate something. Because there have been comments that translations are clunky, difficult to follow and not—I'm not saying that they're not fit for purpose, but certainly don't facilitate teaching, perhaps, as easily as one would wish. gareth pierce: Yes, I would agee, and that begins with the authors, doesn't it? We must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: So, the expertise, and the same capacty with the publishers as well. gareth pierce: Yes, and we do want to nurture authors within Wales, particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a Welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects. So, we need authors who can be developed, and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers. llyr gruffydd am: Would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy, if it were to develop bilingually? Or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy? gareth pierce: Our view in the WJEC is that subsidy will be necessary. Why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the Welsh curriculum? And perhaps we would need a little more funding for that. But there will be organisations such as the WJEC who will still be interested in contributing, because we are a charity, and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in Wales. llyr gruffydd am: But in terms of where we are now, resources have to be translated. But also, how long is acceptable to wait for a translation, in your view? mike ebbsworth: We've done a great deal of work recently, over recent years, to ensure that that delay between having an English version and a Welsh version is reduced. We are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the Welsh and the English are available simultaneously. In those terms, we've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we've named this morning, so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced. The nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind, or edit as he or she is writing. Well, with that model, we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward, chapter by chapter perhaps, so that there would be no changes to be made from then on. At the end of the process, then, the publishers in England have agreed to hold the English version back for a period of time until the Welsh version is available, and then to publish both simultaneously. Unless that timetable is followed throughout the process, there are inherent risks in that process, of course, as I've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials, and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to. gareth pierce: And perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package, and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing, how the Welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that aren't text necessarily—pictures and so forth. So, eight weeks, I think, is the time that we've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the Welsh version in that period of time. So, you’re telling us, Mr Ebbsworth, that the WJEC has agreed with Hodder and Illuminate that, in future, even if an English textbook is available for publication, and it’s already late, you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the Welsh-medium textbook? mike ebbsworth: We can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed. Naturally, if something is late in English, then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken. But that's the hope: that when new textbooks are produced in English and authored in English, we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround. darren millar am: I understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach, which seems much more equitable. But to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you haven't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day, seems to be wholly inappropriate. Can I ask, also, why on earth it isn't possible to produce Welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to English on occasions? mike ebbsworth: We're entirely open to that and to that sort of model. darren millar am: So, why has that never ever been done? gareth pierce: Well, of course, it would happen with subjects that stem from Wales, but I think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors, therefore, tend to work through the medium of English. But, just to be clear, this idea of delaying an English version is something that the Welsh Government is eager for us to experiment with, but not with textbooks that are already late. They are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000. So, in a way, this is an experiment and the Welsh Government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available. darren millar am: So, you're being forced to do this by the Welsh Government, rather than— gareth pierce: Well, we've agreed to do it in discussion with them. darren millar am: So, are you happy with that approach? gareth pierce: Well, as long as the textbook isn't late in the first place, then yes; it's worth trying. There is a challenge on the eight weeks, there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the English version first of all, but we are willing to use this as a test bed, and we're working on two specific textbooks on this. lynne neagle am: I think the committee is struggling with this idea, so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that, then? Is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged? gareth pierce: Well, no, in a way, it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources. With the digital materials, the intention is that things are available in time and that they're available in both languages at the same time. So, trying to imitate that with printed text is what we're trying to do, but not with texts that are already late. So, if these books keep to the timetable, then they will be available in time in both languages, but that the English version has stayed before going out on the shelves. llyr gruffydd am: So, that's to say that the English version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation. mike ebbsworth: Well, ultimately, I may have used the wrong words in saying that we're holding the English back. The English version would still be in the process, just as the Welsh version would be, and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing. There is an element of editing the English as well as the Welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period. So, a draft form might be available, and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible, but then that has to be held up before publication. john griffiths am: Just on that, Chair, it's nonetheless the case, as we've heard, I think, and as the letter to the committee from Kirsty Williams has made clear, that there might be a situation where the English-language version of a textbook could be made available, but it isn't made available because there isn't a Welsh-language version. And, as the Chair said, is that about putting those students in Wales on the same footing, and if so, how does that relate to the fact that these students, including those who could have had earlier access to the English-language version, are competing with students over the border, as we heard on the video earlier, for those precious university places? Doesn't it place the English-language student using the English-language version at a potential disadvantage, compared to students over the border? gareth pierce: I think this is a point for Qualifications Wales to a certain extent, but applicants for qualifications in Wales are assessed as a national cohort, if truth be told, so, each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort. So, in discussion with Qualifications Wales, we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in Wales in any subject, be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason. philip blaker: Certainly, from a comparable outcomes perspective, the fewer differences that there are that are differential—. So, the idea of textbooks being available in English and Welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity. So, if we're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective, it makes the awarding easier if everybody's on a common playing field. It's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned. This subject has already been awarded at AS-level last year, so it has gone through an award and will go through the full A-level award this year. The comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year, in the absence of a textbook, and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level. Similarly, with other subjects that have gone through reforms, we've seen it with the GCSEs that were awarded last year, ASs that were awarded last year and A-levels that were awarded last year: we saw good comparability year on year. Is that okay, John? darren millar am: Just a very brief follow-up on that, at the cohort level, yes, you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected, but what you don't know and can't tell, because you're not able to drill down to the individual student level, is whether children, young people, were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers. philip blaker: I guess we're in a situation where there's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: The absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen. darren millar am: Well, I think you've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it's causing, and the concern that learners have about their outcomes. I think it would be very interesting, actually, to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes. Is that something that Qualifications Wales could do on a sample basis? philip blaker: Historically, that sort of evidence has been very unreliable. Certainly, back in my day at an awarding body they were provided, and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade. gareth pierce: No, we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable, because there are so many factors. But I think, at the end of the day, what we see is, yes, I agree there is evidence of stress, but I think there's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation, and tending to do that very well. That's the evidence that we've got, for example, in the AS religious studies last year, that the cohort did extremely well in fact. We can't disagree that there's evidence of stress, but I think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they've got: classroom notes, revision notes, as they mentioned, and the various other materials that they referred to. john griffiths am: Coming back to the effect of the lack of resources, we heard on the video, as you've just mentioned, Gareth, that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety, and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources, as we discussed. We know exam time is very, very stressful—I'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general, without any additional problems or perceptions of problems. So, with that sort of background, would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications? I know we've discussed this in terms of it being difficult, perhaps, to show cause and effect, but I think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted. There is evidence of their concern, isn't there? But as Philip said, what we don't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment, because there are so many factors, there are so many different kinds of resources that they've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks, they're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them. Of course, it's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard, so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned, yes, and as you've said, examinations are a stressful time in general, but they are also young people who are doing their level best, and usually do get the results that they have worked for. Coming back again to matters that we've already discussed, but just to put to you in a fairly focused way, would you accept that it isn't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having, depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they're studying through? Would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists? gareth pierce: Ideally, resources, digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis. But I think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail, different individuals would be able to say, 'There are different types of unfairness.' You referred earlier to the digital inequalities. Is there an economic inequality? There is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available. So, I think your question drives at a very important point: what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time? Ideally, each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled. So, I don't think I can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair, but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one, and therefore we're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own. john griffiths am: Could I put to you, finally then, what Estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks, marking criteria and specimen papers, that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately, and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils' achievement? Would you accept that? gareth pierce: It's interesting—they link three quite different things there, don't they? We've discussed the textbooks in some detail. When they refer to sample assessments, we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame, and they have to be approved. So, in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes, and they are statutorily available, in a way. One request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us. Of course, they're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time. But in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination, is marked by us, and is then made available. I would like to have a conversation with Estyn, indeed, to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to. emyr george: May I offer a comment on that quote from Estyn? They talk about a reduction in attainment and that, to some extent, brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we're talking about. That method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification, we know that performance in an exam can fall, and that is due to a number of different factors. Certainly, knowing that you're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination, and examinations are a matter of concern already. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate between those factors, but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils' performance in an exam, and that's why, when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades, we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can, on the level of the whole national cohort, to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam. gareth pierce: Could I just make a brief comment on the sample assessments? Now, interestingly, when the English, Welsh, maths, and maths and numeracy GCSEs were new, the Welsh Government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials. We had to produce one for the regulator, but they wanted to see us produce far more, and we did that. If we create more and more sample assessments, then does that create more risk of teaching to the test? And every time we produce one of these, of course, we are using robust assessment ideas, and they're out there to be used for test purposes. So, we need to be careful that we don't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners' good ideas in the sample material. So, it's an interesting theme, but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with Estyn on that. I think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms, particularly knowing that we've got some on the radar already, and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future. So, if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource, rather than a qualification resource, I think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced. So, going back to when I studied my A-levels in the 1980s, there was this common body of knowledge that was an A-level textbook in biology that wasn't focused around an individual awarding body. When we talked to unions about this on Monday, they said, 'Yes, when we used to teach many years ago, there were curriculum resources like that, and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification, we either did or didn't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum'. That's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that didn't get taught because it was no longer in the text, despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge. But I think if we can shift this paradigm—and I would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly, away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for, I would suggest, a much healthier model in the future. In the United States, for example, there are some states within the United States that produce a state textbook. Now, that can have issues, particularly if it's politically orientated—so, if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that's taught. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, they've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks. So, Hong Kong, which is a very high-performing jurisdiction, is trying to move away from that model in the future. gareth pierce: Could I just add very, very briefly— lynne neagle am: Very briefly, because I want to bring Hefin in. gareth pierce: I know that, in our letter to you, we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge. The assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation. So, therefore, we really do need resources that support that way of working, and I'm sure that lots of the young people we've heard from—what they're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content, but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively. In fact, an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator, maybe, is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall. Do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions, sometimes in both languages if they've learnt it in that way? Shouldn't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena? And then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation. hefin david am: I want to welcome these particular comments, because having come from a higher education background, what I've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules, where you're relying on academic journal articles and you're piecing together the story yourself, based on the curriculum you develop yourself. I fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet, when they go to university, they are not expected to repeat what's in the textbook; they're expected to do exactly as Gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument. So, therefore, I'm interested to know how you've worked with higher education to develop that approach. lynne neagle am: Can I ask for brief answers, please? gareth pierce: Yes, well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to HE and therefore what their learners want or, in some cases, they are HE people themselves. We do draw on a body of expertise, and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide. hefin david am: I think the difficulty and the difference is that, at HE level, the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at GCSE level. And I think, interestingly—I know we've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—I think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious. They would be described as scholarly, and I think some of the young people on the video made that point, didn't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes? But we need to assist them in doing so. We need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning. We recently published a report on the Welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate, and I think it's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education. Through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate, there's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills, particularly at the advanced level bacc, to make people really HE-ready so that they're better able to engage with that different style of learning. So, I think there's a huge opportunity that shouldn't be diminished within the advanced Welsh bacc. mark reckless am: Gareth, can I just put to you—? On the Estyn criticism, I think you've answered one aspect of their criticism that WJEC did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process, and I understand your position there, but they went on and said, 'At times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes' and also, 'It would be helpful if the WJEC ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification.' Do you have a response to those points? gareth pierce: Again, probably, I'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes, because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through Philip's team as well or his Welsh Government predecessors as regulators, depending on which qualifications they were. Very occasionally, somebody will identify an error, and obviously we then correct them, because these are available digitally online. So, if there is a problem, we want to hear about it and then we can correct it. But, yes, I agree with their fundamental premise, that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts, including, as we mentioned earlier, so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as WJEC free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching. We need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year. mark reckless am: So, what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from Estyn and having that conversation with them? Has that not happened? gareth pierce: We have met with Estyn a couple of times recently, actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit, and also when they were planning a review of some of the A-level work. Because we do have regular meetings with them, we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here I'm sure. mark reckless am: Looking at the structure and the relationship between Qualifications Wales and the WJEC—. I understand in the model in England—you've got Ofqual, the regulator, and you have various competing exam boards, some I think with for-profit motivation. We don't have that in Wales; there is a sole regulator and a single, dominant examination board. Does that mean that there's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies, particularly given WJEC is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in Qualifications Wales have? philip blaker: The roles are very distinct, so I'd tell you there's no overlap. What we try and do is try and make sure that there's a good connection between the work that we do. I would say a strength of the Welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely, because much of the work that Ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies doesn't lead to what's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards. Now, the opportunity that we have in Wales is, where we have a single awarding body, we can have a close and good working relationship with WJEC, but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at WJEC as one of our regulated bodies. gareth pierce: Can I make a general point? Perhaps the important opportunity in Wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations, such as the consortia, can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and CPD that will be required to support the new curriculum, and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed. The Learned Society of Wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the Welsh dimension of the curriculum. There will be a need for some financial resource from the Welsh Government—yes, certainly—and the WJEC can provide some resources, but I think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources. mark reckless am: But doesn't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that Philip was talking about earlier, where we had textbooks based on the curriculum, and there's that core, but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook wasn't there for the particular exam approach? If you have a single, dominant exam board, and you have a Welsh curriculum that's developed with that board, how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam? philip blaker: So, if we look at qualification, a qualification should be based on the curriculum that's being offered, because learning should be based around the curriculum, and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge, skills and understanding, the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop. Now, of course, what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed, there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for. I think what we're trying to say is, from an educational perspective, what we'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive, so that, if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge, skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create, they should succeed in the qualification. mark reckless am: And you suggested earlier that, if need be, the qualification could be pushed back a year, but not the curriculum. Does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification? philip blaker: It would be possible. mark reckless am: But satisfactory? philip blaker: Because, if we're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16, what Professor Donaldson said at the very beginning, with 'Successful Futures', was, actually, if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage, so that they're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment—. Ideally, you'd be in a position where you've got GCSEs that have been reformed to marry up to any change, but I don't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do. We would much rather be in a position of having reforms, but, equally, I'd want to see any reforms delivered safely, and I wouldn't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline. But I think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and I think as we get further into this we'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what's the right thing to do. darren millar am: Just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum—. So, who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources? philip blaker: I think, for a new model, that needs to be determined. They have responsibility for curriclum and they've already started work with the seminar last year, and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future. I think we need to evolve that approach, and I think Welsh Government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment. darren millar am: Are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere? philip blaker: Yes, there are models where you can have—. For example, in Northern Ireland, you have the regulator, the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof. So, you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in Northern Ireland with the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component. But, of course, in Wales, and also previously in England, the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum. I mentioned earlier that, in the past, the WJEC has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages. Certainly, key stage 3 is closely linked to GCSE, and, therefore, if the WJEC continues to be a player—as I hope it will—in the area of resources for GCSE and A-level, then the WJEC is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing, translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages. So, I'm sure that the WJEC would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area. Well, we're out of time, so can I thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions? I think it's been a very useful and informative session. In view of the time, can I ask whether Members are happy to note all those papers in a block? Can I just flag that I would like to return to paper to note 3, which is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on minority ethnic, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller learners, when we go into private, if that's okay with Members? Item 5, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.

Teachers' attention to students' preparation for the baccalaureate was questioned by Suzy Davies, who expressed concerns about them "spoon-feeding" students. However, Kirsty Williams argued that this was unlikely to happen because unlike A-Levels, the baccalaureate assessed personal projects and independent thinking skills. Gareth Pierce acknowledged the challenge of finding resources and case studies in English, while the educational context required the use of the Welsh language. He believed it was unfortunate that schools had to independently translate materials and suggested the need for translations in both languages. Additionally, Gareth Pierce advocated for a subsidy to produce resources in both languages for the curriculum.

Summarize Gareth Pierce's discussion on the occurrence of "spoon-feeding" in post-16 education, his thoughts on the translation of materials between the two languages, and his views on the subsidy for developing materials bilingually.

grad d: I tried to go for the EE Cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: Three three six zero zero . grad a: You ever seen " So I married an axe murderer " ? grad c: parts of it . grad a: There 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in San Francisco , and he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like " excuse me I ordered the large espresso ? " grad d: . grad a: Wait do are y So you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: No ? . There was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: Ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: Seems like Seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . Well , I was thinking if y you guys have plans for Sunday ? We 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this Sunday , but we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . grad a: Well , I 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , I 'll be out of town . grad d: So you 're going to the west Bay then ? No , grad a: No , the South Bay , grad d: south Bay ? grad a: yeah . Wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: They are gonna get more comfortable headsets . I actually , even though Liz was kind enough to offer to be the first subject , I sort of felt that she knew too much , so I asked Litonya . grad d: So , this is what she saw as part of as for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . , that was really difficult for her and grad c: Because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: The names and this was the first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and then of course the system broke down , and those were the l I should say the system was supposed to break down and then these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human . And now comes the This is the phone - in phase of grad c: Wait , can I I have a question . So there 's no system , right ? Like , there was a wizard for both both parts , is this right ? grad d: Yeah . grad d: One time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . Isn't this kind of obvious when it says " OK now you 're talking to a human " and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: No no no . And the wizard sometimes will not be audible , Because she was actually they there was some lapse in the wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: Is she mispronouncing " Anlage " ? Is it " Anlaga " or " Anlunga " grad d: They 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: OK . Well , if we we professor b: So , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: There was a strange reflex . , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gonna not they 're subjects are probably not gonna going to follow the order . professor b: S so if you just number them " one " , " two " , " three " it 's grad d: Yeah , and make it sort of clear in the professor b: OK . That is something that Fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . grad d: And , another suggestion , by Liz , was that we , through subjects , switch the tasks . So when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we haven't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we don't tell the person " ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah " they still try , or at least Litonya tried to repeat as much of that text as possible . grad d: And my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because I think she did a wonderful job , professor b: Great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , " How much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer " so this is gonna happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . grad a: I wasn't wasn't sure whether wizard was the correct term for " not a man " . grad c: There 's no female equivalent of grad d: But grad a: Are you sure ? grad c: No , I don't know . grad d: Well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: Yeah , that 's so @ @ . grad c: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking , but grad d: and professor b: Right . And So , some some work needs to be done , but I think we can And this , and in case no you hadn't seen it , this is what Litonya looked at during the while taking the while partaking in the data collection . , do you know exactly how to do that , or is Lila , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: I 'm completely clueless , but I 'm willing to learn . So anyway , grad d: N professor b: So why don't you ask Lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: Student - type worker , professor b: Well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . professor b: So i if Yeah , I agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was , more , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than I would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: This is sort of what I gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: Yeah . grad d: and I didn't even spell it out here and in some cases I I spelled it out a little bit more thoroughly , professor b: Right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and , so i if we give her even more , instruments to work with I think the results are gonna be even better . professor b: Oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . And also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . professor b: And , she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so I think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gonna need to know , to do her career . professor b: So , I my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . grad d: And I told her that we gonna figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . She also agrees that you know if it 's all just gonna be students the data is gonna be less valuable because of that so . professor b: Well , as I say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: We 're already Yeah . professor b: grad d: However , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . We could talk to the people who run it and see if they have a way that they could easily tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: Now , I signed us up for the Wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . professor b: So , my idea on that was , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly I did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: Yep . So my idea on on Wednesday is partly to you , what you did today would i is just fine . You just do " this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . " But then , the other thing of course is we should give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . So , I don't I don't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . I don't think you should you don't have to make any new PowerPoint or anything . The other two things is we 've can have Johno tell us a little about this professor b: Great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , M - three - L enhancement , and then that was it , I think . grad a: So , what I did for this this is , a pedagogical belief - net because I was I I took I tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what I did was I took I made these dummy nodes called Trajector - In and Trajector - Out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . And then I did similar things for our our net to with the context and the discourse and whatnot , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . Let 's go Slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: Yeah , there 's just one more node and it says " Mode " which is the decision between the grad d: Yeah . grad a: So basically all I did was I took the last belief - net professor b: So grad a: and I grouped things according to what how I thought they would fit in to image schemas that would be related . And the two that I came up with were Trajector - landmark and then Source - path - goal as initial ones . grad a: And then I said well , the trajector would be the person in this case probably . grad a: you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: Right . And then in terms of the source , the things the only things that we had on there I believe were whether Oh actually , I kind of , I might have added these cuz I don't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but whether the where I 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: And " usefulness " is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . " Travel constraints " would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wanna take a bus or something like that , right ? And then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . Similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . , and then if you go up , Robert , Yeah , so , in terms of Context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . , Discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . grad a: Prosody I don't really I 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so I just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . grad a: the Parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said " I need to get there quickly " or whatever . grad a: And , in terms of World Knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: What 's " tourbook " ? grad a: Tourbook ? That would be , I don't know , the " landmark - iness " of things , grad d: So let me see if I can ask grad a: Well , this is not a working Bayes - net . No , I understand that , but but So , what Let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and Oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . So , you could imagine w , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: I I 'd No , I was gonna wait until professor b: Oh , OK . So , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real Bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f , fill it @ @ in , then grad a: So we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the Mode . And and Bhaskara and I was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge , combinatoric input to the Mode thing . And grad a: Well I oh yeah , I unders I understand that , I just it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . Let me just mention something that I don't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , I I slipped a paper to Bhaskara and about Noisy - OR 's and Noisy - MAXes and there 're ways to sort of back off on the purity of your Bayes - net - edness . If you co you could ima and I now I don't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: So it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that OK . grad a: So in that case , the sum we 'd have we , these wouldn't be the summary nodes . We 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were I guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: Yeah . professor b: So what I was gonna say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . So , if you have some bottom line decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . professor b: And the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you don't get this combinatorics . So that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , OK ? then you could say " Aha , let 's have these three factors " , OK ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . professor b: And then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . So that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: OK . professor b: given that we 're not gonna screw with the technology and just always use sort of orthodox Bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . and grad a: So what I kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: " Eh - eh - eh . , so , Robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . professor b: and , I understand where this the this is a way of playing with this abs Source - path - goal trajector exp abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . professor b: I don't think our friends on Wednesday are going to be able to Well , maybe they will . This is sort of th the second version and I I I look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , UML diagram or , you know , as just a screen shot , not really as a Bayes - net as John Johno said . grad a: We could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . But the the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: Alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and professor b: and see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of a module , if you wanna call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll throw the dice for you , throw the die for you , because I integrated this into the existing SmartKom system in in the same way as much the same way we can sort of have this this thing . So if this is what M - three - L will look like and what it 'll give us , And a very simple thing . We have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . grad d: And this these this changed now only , It 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is " Approach " and could be , you know , more refined in many ways . grad d: Or we can have something where the goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type " Enter " . So this is just based on this one , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . And so in the f if this pla if the object type here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be " Vista " . And this is about as much as we can do if we don't w if we want to avoid a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify " OK , if it 's this and this but that is not the case " , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . You 're you 're grad d: ? professor b: It was much too quick for me . So , I I do understand that you can take the M - three - L and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about object types and stuff , and what I think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say " If it 's of type " Landmark " , then you take you 're gonna take a picture of it . Ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: Every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . grad d: W professor b: that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing " OK , here 's a another kind of minimal way of tackling this " . Add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , " pppt ! " You do that . , then the question would be Now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , OK ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: ? professor b: Right ? So we don't we don't use the discourse , we don't use the context , we don't do any of those things . professor b: Alright , but that 's but that 's OK , and it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . And that 's something the SmartKom people themselves would they 'd say " Sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont " Right ? grad d: Yeah . And this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , we have this this silly interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . grad d: Now , the content I whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the Vista , Schema , Source , Path , Goal , whatever . grad d: This will be a job to find ways of writing down Image schema , X - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called " Constructicon " . And and here is exactly where what 's gonna be replaced with our Bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . This decides whether it 's an whether action the the Enter , the Vista , or the whatever professor b: " approach " , you called it , I think this time . This is so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic like parameters for the for the X - schema ? professor b: For for for Yes . So that that i if you had the generalized " Go " X - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . professor b: And then , although we haven't worried about this yet , you might wanna worry about something that would go to the GIS and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . professor b: But , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: So the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: Aspects of the X - schema to add . professor b: Yeah , so the pro The immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . professor b: You know , what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: Right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: Yeah . professor b: The harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gonna get it ? And that the the that 's the hardest problem . So , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . The h So , I think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: OK . , and that 's so , getting back to here , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we don't want all the com grad a: There 's just too many factors right now . professor b: So we wanna think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: So what we really wanna do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wanna b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: Right . , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . So instead of in instead it should really be just be " intention " as a node instead of " intention business " or " intention tour " . professor b: OK ? So you Yeah , right , and then it would have values , " Tour " , " Business " , or " Hurried " . professor b: But then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wanna break this up , what really matters . grad a: I think what was going through my mind when I did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: Well , you you could do that . And it 's perfectly OK to insist that that , you know , th , they add up to one , but that there 's that that it doesn't have to be one zero zero . So you could have the conditional p So the each of these things is gonna be a a a probability . So whenever there 's a choice , so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: Well , see I don't think those would be mutually professor b: OK grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: Absolutely right . professor b: And so that you might want to then have those b Th - Then they may have to be separate . professor b: So that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . It 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward toward where we wanna go . grad d: Also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a , a specification for some interface , here that takes the normal M - three - L , looks at it . Then we discussed in our pre - edu EDU meeting how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so we we may wanna decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . But this information is just M - three - L , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the GRS , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history some s some stuff . Based on we we have I was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , " were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? " , professor b: grad d: " were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? " , grad c: Right . So this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: Yeah . grad d: and then professor b: There will be rules , but they aren't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . So they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that " Agent " , yeah , " Agent " , whatever you wan wanna say , yeah , that is rule - driven , and can can can do things like that . And there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and carries out the decision , so it probably will . My guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s more another vector , OK , which can then be applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . So on once you pull that out , it could be that that says " Ah ! Now that we know that we gonna go ask the ontology something else . " OK ? Now that we know that it 's a bus trip , OK ? we didn't We didn't need to know beforehand , how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we gotta go find out more . So this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is , and , I had one more thing , the it needs to do Yeah . I think we I I can come up with a a code for a module that we call the " cognitive dispatcher " , which does nothing , professor b: OK . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . So maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and get this part , professor b: Oh , OK . In particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . What you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . And that there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you don't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . grad d: There 're no primitives upon which professor b: u u What are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: So I y I 'm just just there saying eee well you I know how to do any individual case , right ? but I don't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use deep cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . professor b: grad d: Maybe we sho should we a add then the " what 's this ? " domain ? N , we have to " how do I get to X " . Then we also have the " what 's this ? " domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: Could . grad d: Johno , actually , does not allow us to call them " intentions " anymore . professor b: Well , I I don't like the term either , so I have n i i i y w i i It grad d: But , I 'm sure the " what 's this ? " questions also create some interesting X - schema aspects . I 'm not a I 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: So . professor b: I 'm just saying that I 'm gonna hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . Well , no the Bayes the Bayes - nets The Bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . But what I 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different Bayes - nets , be the general . So that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you shouldn't have to do that differently for going to something , than for circling it , for telling someone else how to go there , grad d: Getting out of professor b: whatever it is . So that that , the the decision processes are gonna be different What you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . So all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . And pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with SmartKom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's something about the intent you know , the actual what people wanna do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gonna use in a general way . You might be able to to say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's Let 's say there 's a cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . So just from this local construction you know that you 're gonna hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . So if you say " how do I get into the castle " OK , then Or , you know , " what is there in the castle " or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . professor b: Alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: professor b: grad d: It 's unfortunate also that English has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . professor b: Well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: Yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . grad d: Parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . Oh yeah , b But an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever belief - net , or " X " that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . So , are we gonna be meeting here from now on ? I 'm I 'm happy to do that . We we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: so far I think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: Oh yeah . No I I think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wanna look at . grad d: Yeah ? The , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: Right . grad d: and also the the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: Right . Yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l No , it was great . grad d: So I think that , w Looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . grad d: and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence " How do you get there ? " was pretty standard . Nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: Right . , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: Yeah

The professor proposed using a knowledge engineering trick to address the issue by narrowing down inputs. He suggested adding deterministic rules to properties with actions and retrieving property types from the ontology. Grad D suggested a different approach, which involved adding restrictive action types that are specific to the kind of object. For example, there would be specific actions relevant to a landmark.

What were the opinions of the Professor and Grad D regarding controlling and managing the size of the combinatorial input?

We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear? alastair birch: Bore da—bore da, bawb. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure. Nothing to add at this stage, no? sally jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful? sally jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill? sally jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion. huw david: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales. sally jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. [Laughter.] dawn bowden am: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far? huw david: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed. sally jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it? sally jenkins: We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that— dawn bowden am: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections. alastair birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families. dawn bowden am: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it? alastair birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented? sally jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you? huw david: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales. dawn bowden am: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill? huw david: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation. dawn bowden am: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas. sally jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. There have been headlines that have said, 'Is it increased austerity?' That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to. alastair birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements. dawn bowden am: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools? alastair birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also—. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts. lynne neagle am: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked? sally jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: What, if a child is being smacked now? sally jenkins: Yes. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult. sally jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about—we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that 'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.' It also says, 'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition—' so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.' To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted? sally jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families' lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. janet finch-saunders am: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services—I know in my own authority—in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society—we don't want the two to be out of kilter. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC. Are there any comments from anyone else? huw david: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: Yes, where's that line. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in—we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions? sally jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. janet finch-saunders am: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated. lynne neagle am: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on? sally jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It’ll be where the level of harm that’s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services. janet finch-saunders am: I’m pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they’ve been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I’ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: But if you're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: And are they qualified people that are doing this? sally jenkins: Yes, absolutely. huw david: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it’s a multi-agency assessment. janet finch-saunders am: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked? sally jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. lynne neagle am: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover. huw david: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example— sally jenkins: Or prevention. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home, ‘There’s no role for children’s social services’, because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. And that’s a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it’s happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it’s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members. lynne neagle am: And are those services there, Huw? Because I’m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I’m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services. huw david: There’s not enough of those services, and, obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they’re only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we’ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months’ time, and that could escalate. And what I’d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. sally jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it’s not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child. alastair birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority—and it’ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o’clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that. janet finch-saunders am: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services? sally jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. janet finch-saunders am: Are they overstretched at the moment? sally jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted? alastair birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. It says in 'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that's what we're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into 'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure—and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw—that the services are key for families. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base—we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust? alastair birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust—it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually, 'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.' Some of the NFAs—the ones that don't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. The trust in the professionals—it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Siân Gwenllian. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work? sally jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense. sian gwenllian am: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that? huw david: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make—[Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: That's why I'm asking. huw david: I don't know whether that is necessary—I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent. But is it clear who would pay for all of that? huw david: I've suddenly changed my mind—[Laughter.] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers—absolutely. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter.] sian gwenllian am: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin. hefin david am: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that? sally jenkins: I don't think so, no. hefin david am: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services—or doesn't? sally jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services—that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that. hefin david am: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. And I agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions. hefin david am: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services? sally jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into—. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable? sally jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Siân— lynne neagle am: Okay. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough? sally jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are. huw david: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced. sian gwenllian am: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that, 'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then, 'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.' We have to get the costs, surely. huw david: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.<doc-sep>Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children. barry hughes: Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children? sian gwenllian am: Yes. barry hughes: We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. sian gwenllian am: Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007. barry hughes: I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that? barry hughes: I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. sian gwenllian am: What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples? barry hughes: If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey? sian gwenllian am: But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. sian gwenllian am: But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying? barry hughes: If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case. lynne neagle am: We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that? barry hughes: Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that? barry hughes: Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other— dawn bowden am: And that would be primarily around the public interest issue. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation? barry hughes: My own personal involvement? dawn bowden am: Or the service's. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance. barry hughes: I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that. dawn bowden am: And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law? barry hughes: Not as of the present day. [Laughter.] dawn bowden am: But you would expect that to be something you would— barry hughes: Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes? barry hughes: They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision? barry hughes: I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that. suzy davies am: It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. sian gwenllian am: My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion? barry hughes: There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. sian gwenllian am: Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point? barry hughes: Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'? barry hughes: I understand your point. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that. barry hughes: And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door? barry hughes: From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. suzy davies am: Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law? barry hughes: I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little— suzy davies am: Sufficient. suzy davies am: So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this? barry hughes: If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. suzy davies am: That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children. lynne neagle am: Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18— barry hughes: Sixteen. barry hughes: I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink lynne neagle am: Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill? barry hughes: Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted. vikki howells am: Thank you, that's really useful, and— lynne neagle am: Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution? barry hughes: Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed. There is a body of law that— suzy davies am: A child can't consent to assault. barry hughes: Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option? barry hughes: We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited? barry hughes: The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction. vikki howells am: And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion? barry hughes: Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales? barry hughes: I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example? barry hughes: It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it. sian gwenllian am: Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident? barry hughes: Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures? barry hughes: I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean. sian gwenllian am: What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence? barry hughes: I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. Is that going to increase if we change the law? barry hughes: There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication. sian gwenllian am: Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law? barry hughes: No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. sian gwenllian am: Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58. sian gwenllian am: And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union. barry hughes: It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.] suzy davies am: [Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that? barry hughes: There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise? barry hughes: No. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.

Barry Hughes argued that children have fewer rights than adults, leading to the need for the law to protect them from physical assault. He suggested that the law should be updated to reflect the current social behavior. The discussion then shifted to the legal framework and its enforcement. The first stage involved assessing the evidence provided by the police to determine if there was a realistic chance of conviction. Only if this stage was satisfied, the second stage, which focused on the public interest, would be considered. Sally Jenkins emphasized the importance of collaboration with colleagues in education, social care, preventative services, as well as the Welsh Government and the National Assembly. She highlighted the various avenues for raising awareness, including preventative services, universal services, regional safeguarding boards, and national safeguarding boards. The goal was to raise awareness on a broader scale by utilizing all available channels.

Summarize the discussion on the efficacy of the law and how to clarify to parents that the legislation is not meant to criminalize them.

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call the meeting to order. Welcome to the third meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April20, the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements, allowing members to present petitions, and questioning ministers of the crown, including the Prime Minister, in respect of the COVID-19 pandemic. I understand there's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the Canadian Armed Forces who lost their lives last Wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of Greece. Colleagues, we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. As we do, Canadians, like everyone around the world, are doing their best to live their lives until things improve. Meanwhile, as we look towards the future, I believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history. Andrea McCrady, is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands by the Canadian Forces. In May 1945, Canadian Forces played a major role in liberating the Dutch people from Nazi occupation. May 5 is now a national holiday in the Netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries. Let me remind you that, as in the House or in committee, members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings. In order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings, I will outline a few rules. If you look at the bottom, you have a little flag that indicates whether it's English or French, and that's how we will be speaking. I would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions. In addition, to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented, the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous Parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. It includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person's consent. The petitioners urge the House of Commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia, and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people. Petitioners call on members of the House, and hopefully the Senate as well, to support Bill S-204, which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to Canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking. I want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us. If you don't have one, please talk to your IT ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible. The reason for them is not so much for what you hear, but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult. Part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset, which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members. The petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in Canada and that 2019, last year, was declared by the UN to be the year of indigenous languages. They draw attention to article 13 of the UNDRIP and to the TRC's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. Fundamentally, they call upon the Government of Canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of Canada and to have each language recognized nationally, with implementations on regional and provincial levels, acknowledging that many regions have different languages. Chair, I am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents, Myles Lynch of St. Myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years, and he's only 22 years old. One thing Myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation. I am proud to have this certified today, with 1,318 signatures, asking the Standing Committee on Health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program. I give kudos to Myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system. Chair, I'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of Toronto, Mississauga and Brampton, Ontario, who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of Canadians who have signed similar petitions. Given that Canadians are living through unprecedented, catastrophic climate events, and at the same time our society, as you know, is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of Canadian families are only $200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing, these petitioners are calling on the Government of Canada to support motion M-1, a made-in-Canada green new deal that I am presenting in front of the House of Commons. It calls on Canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency, and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy. Chair, it's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from CourtenayAlberni. Over 12,000 Canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources. They cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl. They are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources, with proper measures and bylaws, will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs. They are calling on the Government of Canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the Emergencies Act. They are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession, as has been done in Portugal and other countries, and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally, recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source. Chair, I'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of Canadians in my riding with the government's approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petition highlights that the Liberal government's December 5, 2019, Speech from the Throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in Canadian law; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions; that the experts, including chiefs of police, agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into Canada from the United States; and that the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities. The petitioners in MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed, RCMP-vetted Canadians; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement, on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs, on mental health and on providing the Canada Border Services Agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively. I would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair. I want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly, not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in Canada and its impacts, the Prime Minister is deceiving Canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners. justin trudeau (prime minister): Mr.Chair, I feel that all Canadians were affected by the massacre in Nova Scotia. During the last election campaign, we promised to ban military-style assault weapons, and that is exactly what we have done. It is a shame that, once more, the Conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country. However, I would like to know whether he considers that, with this order in council, organized crime, street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons. We are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities, to strengthen the control at our borders, and to implement other measures. member speak of those measures, because we are going to work together in the House to strengthen gun control. I hope that the Conservative Party will be part of that discussion in a positive way, in order to keep Canadians safe. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, I can simply say to the Prime Minister that the Conservative Party has always been committed to battling criminals, not law-abiding citizens. Speaking of criminals, we know that, even before the pandemic, the Prime Minister had asked the Parole Board of Canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly. The Minister of Public Safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older, but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released. justin trudeau: The protection, the safety and the health of all Canadians are important for the government. This is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected. We have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases, but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for Canadians. pierre paul-hus: So is the Prime Minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience COVID-19 within the walls? right hon. justin trudeau: There are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released. Is Canada going to stand by its allies in the Five Eyes and demand that the Chinese government be completely transparent? right hon. justin trudeau: We continue to stand in solidarity with our allies, including the Five Eyes, as they have stood in solidarity with Canada in terms of the two Canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in China. In the coming months and years, we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic, including questions that are important for China. At the same time, we are going to work hard to ensure that all Canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. For some days, discussions have been going on between people from the Bloc Qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in Quebec and Canada. The gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $25per week, or $110per month. The discussion has been going on for some time and it's a proposal that we made in the election campaign. Given that impatience, I realized I should not be the one answering them, it should be the Prime Minister. So here is my question for the Prime Minister: what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in Quebec and Canada in the very short term? right hon. justin trudeau: Clearly, seniors need support and significant services from us because of COVID-19. Our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of COVID-19. The most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the GST, which will help them very quickly. We have also channelled $9million through the United Way, to help the most vulnerable seniors. I am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians, including those in the Bloc Qubcois, to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term. In terms of the pandemic, they have concerns about their physical security, but also about their financial security. yves-franois blanchet: In the last few hours, the Prime Minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties, including the Bloc Qubcois, on a completely different matter. We are very open to that discussion, but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of Quebec. Seniors in my constituency, as in any other of the 338constituencies, are asking what we are doing. When will there be something for them? I want to be able to give them an answer of some kind. justin trudeau: There will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors, particularly the most vulnerable seniors. There are horror stories, whether about the CHSLDs, or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country. There are seniors who are alone, seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again. We have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war. Chair, every day I hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head. Instead of making sure that Canadians get the help they need, the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks. If the Prime Minister won't commit to a universal benefit, will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind? right hon. Chair, we knew, when this pandemic hit, that we needed to help Canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast, particularly the most vulnerable. That is why we moved forward rapidly with the Canada emergency response benefit, which has helped over seven million individual Canadians and has made a huge difference. We had to move very quickly to get this money out to people, and that is exactly what we did. That is why since that moment, we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well. However, because she didn't make $5,000 last year, when the pandemic hit she didn't qualify for any benefits. Chair, our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift Canadians out of poverty and will support them. Over the past five years, we've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country, and we've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we're doing. At the same time, we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million Canadians who successfully receive the CERB. We recognize there's more to do, and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation. Chair, the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need, but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help. If a company is cheating the public, using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share, it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits. Other countries, like Poland, Denmark and France, have made this commitment, and if they can do it, so can we. Will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens, it will not receive public funds? right hon. Chair, the measures we've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs, regardless of the companies they work for. It is a shame to hear the NDP, which used to be the party of workers, choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for. We have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers. That is help for the workers, and that has been our focus all the way through: ordinary Canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of COVID-19. I want to remind honourable members that we're trying to stay within committee rules, which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time. She has about 45 seconds left, and hopefully that's about half and half for the question and the answer. My community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit, and now people who are living on the streets or in parks don't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home. In Victoria, the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people, at least for the short term, in local hotels. Will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term, stable housing? the chair: The right honourable Prime Minister, in 25 seconds or less, please. Working with partners, we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country, but there is more to do. We recognize that during this pandemic there's even more to do for vulnerable Canadians, and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): A point of order, Mr.Chair. Could we please check so that I can hear in French what the Prime Minister is saying? the chair: Okay. I'm speaking English right now and I'm on the English toggle at the bottom of the screen. It does create a bit of a disjoint when we're speaking, but it's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone. Chair, as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum, I want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash. I know that I speak for all parliamentarians when I extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones. Chair, I want to raise with the Prime Minister an issue that I've raised several times before, and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program. Those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy, but because of rules that the government designed, together they do not. Even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible, so far they've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program. Will the Prime Minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for Brandt Tractor all across the country? right hon. justin trudeau: I thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding. As I told him when we spoke directly, Finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding. We recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy, but I know that Finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it, so that the workers in his community can get the support they need. andrew scheer: The Prime Minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well, so we're hoping for some good news. Just flagging the time and date, it is well into May now and important decisions have to be made in very short order. There are other aspects of the government's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks. As provinces start to open up, many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35% or 45% of regular revenues. They will not be able to access these programs and, in many cases, there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work. Will the Prime Minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more Canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead? right hon. Chair, we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country, and that's exactly what we did. We're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country. I am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work. We are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis. As different provinces move forward towards reopening, as we look at different paths forward, I know that I will be able to count on all members in the House and, indeed, on Canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way. the chair: We have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer. The problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well, but we're also going to see an additional challenge, where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit, who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours, are faced with a hard cap of $1,000 a month before they lose the CERB. Conservatives are proposing a progressive system, a more flexible system, where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored. Again, will the Prime Minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work? the chair: I believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up, but I'll give the right honourable Prime Minister about 30 seconds to answer that, please. Our priority was getting support for Canadians right across the country with the CERB, with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students, for seniors, for farmers and for agricultural producers. We are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen, to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it. However, our overarching priority was allowing Canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home, care for their loved ones, buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic. We've heard the Prime Minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down, rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing. Chair, after a lifetime of hard work, of course Canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security. Happily, their pensions and their benefits are still flowing, unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs, but it's still tough. People received a GST credit, a supplementary payment that was $400 on average for single seniors and $600 for couples. I think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question. the chair: I want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible. We see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the U.S. While we have Americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish, individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined. We have people who have purchased masts from Canadian producers for their boats, and who want to come and pick them up, who are not being allowed to do that. When will they clarify the rules to the CBSA agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce, including individual commerce, is understood? hon. Chair, we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by CBSA to stop all non-essential travel. At the same time, we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach Canada and we could put groceries on our shelves. The work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of Canadians, and we will continue with that work. We see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outEI, CERB, the wage subsidy, etc. What is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks? hon. Chair, first, let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult. The intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge. We are looking at ways that we can ensure that the Canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application. We are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process, recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact, and we will have more to say on that. Since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in Prince Edward Island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time, but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled, giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors. This double standard is severely unfair and Atlantic harvesters are furious, as demonstrated during the protests on the Canso Causeway yesterday. When will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23, 24 and 26? hon. Chair, when making decisions with regard to when seasons open, a number of factors are taken into account. They are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season, what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season, as well socio-economic impacts on the area. In the decisions we've made around the gulf, one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date. Maybe I'll start muting if it's necessary, but interrupting is not going to solve anything. West coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in British Columbia, especially in coastal communities, and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government. A year later, the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable, science-based solutions to conserve B.C.'s public fisheries. Does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support Canada's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain? the chair: The hon. That's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we're doing everything we possibly can to support them. During these extremely difficult times, we're working on measures with the fishery in B.C., as well as on the Atlantic coast and eastern Quebec, to make sure that we're delivering for them and that all of the issues they're having are being addressed. Chair, Canada's seniors, especially those on basic incomes, are being hard hit by the COVID-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services. Seniors require adequate caregiver supports, physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security. Why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing? Will the government support Canada's senior citizens? the chair: The hon. We have provided a GST credit supplement of $400 for single seniors and $600 for couples, for low- and modest-income seniors. We have also ensured that the Canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to COVID-19. On April 23, my colleagues and I called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in Canada's essential food supply chains. What has the government done to match students and other Canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors, including those in the fish and seafood sector? hon. Chair, we're doing all we can to make sure, using our existing employment programs, that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer. We know that this is going to be really tough, especially in areas like agriculture, so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government, and a number of different initiatives including Canada summer jobs, which I'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days. Arnold, it's the second time that I note you've threatened to cut off a Conservative microphone. I'm just wondering, given that this isn't the House of Commons and it's structured as a committee, what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of Parliament using a mute button. It seems a little dictatorial, and I was just wondering whether you could clarify that, based on the Standing Orders. the chair: I don't think I threatened to use mute, but thank you for bringing that up. I am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal, so that there are no interruptions on either side. Bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where I threatened, and we'll go over it, but I don't think this is the venue to do that. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): Canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government's initiative to put a gun ban in place. Does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in Nova Scotia? the chair: The honourable minister in 15 seconds or less, please. bill blair: We have heard from health professionals, women's rights organizations, victims groups and the police and our unions. They're all very supportive of the government's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people. rachael harder: It's interesting that the minister is misleading Canadians in that comment because the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort, that it actually will not protect Canadians. How many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the Liberal government? hon. The Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles. The chief in Toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety, and the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles. Absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the Liberals' legislation that's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms. Can the Prime Minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes? the chair: The honourable minister in 25 seconds or less, please. bill blair: Yes, to be very clear, the order in council actually is targeted at weapons, weapons that were designed for military use, and in their design and in their intent, to kill people, they've actually been used in this country, at cole Polytechnique; in Moncton; at a Quebec City mosque; in Fredericton; at Mayerthorpe and most recently in Nova Scotia. They are being used and have been used in Canada and around the world to commit mass murder, and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: We'll go on to Ms. Now I understand the Prime Minister has his food prepared for him at 24 Sussex Drive and then it's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives. Now, they're in a crisis right now, which means that regular Canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs. Why doesn't the Prime Minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep Canada fed? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. member that our government cares very, very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country. Let me just say I am grateful to all the farmers, like my dad, who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding. We, as Canadians, are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower, and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers. rachael harder: I'm confused as to why the Prime Minister didn't take my question, and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister doesn't feel it's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today. When we have farmers who produce for Canadians on a daily basis and they're asking some serious and some very important questions, and we don't even have a minister who's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation, that's shameful. Several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of COVID-19 and, as a result, farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected. Cattle producers in my region are spending more than $60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen. When will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in Canada? hon. Chair, let me just say that I feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me, the Deputy Prime Minister, answer questions about agriculture. I am actually very proud to speak up for Canada's amazing farmers, for our country's amazing ranchers, for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. I too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week. I'm sure that all members of the House stand shoulder to shoulder with the families, with the crew of the HMCS Fredericton and, indeed, with the entire Canadian Armed Forces community during this time of grief. Can the Minister of National Defence give us an update as to the Cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of Greece last week? hon. Our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them, and that's exactly what we are doing. I actually spoke with the Italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that's required. the chair: I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut you off there, if we're going by the rules that were pointed out by the House. I know that back in early January, military intelligence through CF Intelligence Command was reporting, through the chain of command, the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in Wuhan. On what date was he, as Minister of National Defence, given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in China? hon. We work with our Five Eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort, right from the beginning. Obviously, I can't discuss the intelligence in this forum, but I can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information. james bezan: Minister Sajjan, we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in National Defence. It was reported in the media that in early January the hierarchy within the Canadian Armed Forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak. As with all our intelligence, we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies. One thing I can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet. james bezan: What was that timeline? From the time you were first told, Minister Sajjan, about the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, what did you do with that intelligence? When did you give it to the Prime Minister or to Minister Hajdu as the Minister of Health? hon. Chair, let me say that our government's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of Canadian intelligence agencies throughout. In January, the Prime Minister convened a meeting of the incident response group, and in January we increased screening at all major airports. All of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community, and of course our work with our Five Eyes, NATO and NORAD allies. james bezan: I want to come back the chair: We now move to Mr.Ste-Marie. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): Can I go ahead, Mr.Chair? the chair: Yes, go ahead. In an interview with Grald Fillion, tax expert Andr Lareau, who specializes in tax havens, pointed out that $350billion Canadian is parked in just 12tax havens. Mr.Lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this Canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it. He said that it's time for Canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $250-billion deficit, and that if it doesn't act now to change things, it never will. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, as soon as we took office, in 2015, our government made cracking down on tax evaders in Canada and abroad a priority. I realize that my fellow member is impatient, but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue. Under our leadership, in three years, the Canada Revenue Agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the Conservatives were in power. As we speak, the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion. gabriel ste-marie: You're right, I am very impatient, because whenever I bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally, the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters. Since Parliament began sitting virtually, it's been mentioned a few times that Denmark and Poland have decided to deal with the issue. Even France's finance minister, Bruno LeMaire, said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance. We hear thePrime Minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers, so I'd like to cite another examplebanks. The government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities, and yet, the five major banks in Toronto, alone, are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens. This has nothing to do with wages for workers, and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets, cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after. Is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, our government is taking unprecedented steps through the Canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by COVID-19. What's more, any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount. Anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225% of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison. the chair: Mr.Ste-Marie, you have about 30seconds to ask your question, and about the same for the answer. Although completely immoral, the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the Income Tax Regulations. We are going to have a $250-billion deficit to pay off, and everyone is going to have to chip in, including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment, our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job, and we are starting to see results. I'm proud of how the Government of Canada has been beside Canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported Canadians when they needed it most. In BonavistaBurinTrinity and across our country, our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts. Last week, my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing Canada's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process, store, package and distribute healthy, high-quality products on to the plates of Canadians. The fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures. Chair, I want to thank my colleague from BonavistaBurinTrinity for keeping us well aware of what's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors. It's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that's why we want to be there to support them. We've already taken steps by making sure that the CERB is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers. As well, we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers EI are also able to qualify for it. We also have made an investment of $62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of COVID-19. We are working with our partners across industry to make sure we're hearing what their major concerns are. We will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days. Chair, in my riding of SurreyNewton, I'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: We have a point of order. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): Sorry, but there seems to be an issue with the audio. Chair, in my riding of SurreyNewton, I'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers, transport companies to warehousing. With provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy, there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen. With so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions, and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum, how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery? hon. One of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the Canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories. That's why I was so pleased that last week the Prime Minister, together with all the first ministers of the country, was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart. This is so important because, as my colleague has pointed out, all of our business, our economic activity, happens across the country. We have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus, and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen Canada. In Alberta, meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all COVID-19 cases. The government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with COVID-19. Now, two workers are dead, at least six more are in intensive care and COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities. On March 27, regarding the CERB, the Minister of Finance said that if workers don't feel comfortable in their work, if they decide to stay home, they can apply for the benefit, yet the website says differently. Will the minister guarantee that every Canadian receiving CERB, EI or the CESB will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to COVID-19? hon. chrystia freeland: Let me thank the member, first of all, for her really very important question. I think all of us share the concern for Canada's essential workers who are keeping us safe, putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions. When it comes to the Cargill plant, this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in. My colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant. To the question my colleague asked about workers, it is absolutely the case that no Canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe, and it is also very much the case that any Canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home. This is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: We will go on to Ms. heather mcpherson: I just want to be clear, because I'm not a hundred per cent sure that I got an answer in that response, so I'll try one more time. Knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work, can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work, they will be able to access the CERB, or was the Minister of Finance incorrect when he spoke on March 27? the chair: The honourable minister. chrystia freeland: In a time of coronavirus that is even more the case, and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions. the chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair to avoid back and forth, just to try to keep some order in the meeting. If the provincial government won't shut down the plant, will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the Canadian Food Inspection Agency? hon. Chair, on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, let me be very clear that my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has been in touch with provincial authorities. The duties of the food inspection agency, of course, are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe. We are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: We will go back to Ms. Can the finance minister please let us know if Cargill, a company that is owned by billionaires, with business in Luxembourg, a known tax haven, has received any federal funding this year for COVID-related support? hon. diane lebouthillier: This is a tough time for Canadians, and our government is doing everything it can to support them. More than 7million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit, which the Canada Revenue Agency and Service Canada administer. I want to say how proud I am of the work the agency is doing; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Potato farmers in New Brunswick and across Canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry, but due to the pandemic, they now have no customers. What is the Prime Minister's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season? hon. We are aware that the coronavirus, by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries, has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes. The program announced today by the Prime Minister and my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, will be very helpful for potato farmers, including with the surplus food program that starts with a $50 million fund, and that the chair: We'll go back to Mr. With an estimated $300 million worth of potatoes in storage, the announced funding from the government today simply doesn't go far enough. How does the Prime Minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need? hon. The program today is $252 million, which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers, of course, have access to. On potato farmers, in particular, I agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern. I think all Canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used, and that's why the $50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful. The $16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants. Does the government truly believe that the announced $125 million that is shared between beef, poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of Canadians? hon. Chair, I absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef, pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country. I am very pleased as a Canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves, but also enough food to feed the world. That is why the $125 million specifically to support our beef, pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful. Chair, the government's announcement of $252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture's request for immediate government relief for farmers. The president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, Mary Robinson, put it today something like this: that if the farmhouse is on fire, the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water. Does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need? When will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis? hon. Chair, I don't know about the honourable member, but where I come from, $252 million is not just crumbs. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today: the $77 million to support food processors, which will not only be important for the processors, but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them; and the $250 million that we would like to add to the Canadian Dairy Commission's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars, which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers. Chair, a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business, and they are on CERB. They were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified, and he is receiving $8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year. Why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes? hon. Chair, any individual who has lost work for COVID reasons is eligible for the CERB, regardless of their personal circumstances. If you made $5,000 in the past year and are a resident of Canada, you qualify for the CERB. This is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of COVID. cathay wagantall: Clearly, high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time. The government's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state, In all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence. Why is the Prime Minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our CBSA officers first, giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders? hon. Chair, I note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border, the member opposite voted against it. The evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used, and have been used, to kill innocent people. Countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdomhave all recognized that there's no place for these weapons in a civil society. There have been far too many people killed with these weapons, and even most recently, to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in Nova Scotia, the time to act is now, and we've acted. cathay wagantall: Last week the Minister of Agriculture said, Step by step we are giving our farmers...the tools they need to continue their...work. On April 30, the Canadian Federation of Agriculture called on the minister to create a $2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in Canada. This morning, the Prime Minister announced $252 million, hit-and-miss, across the agriculture sector. With all due respect, this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector. If the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place, how does she see it is right to be providing $9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector? hon. Chair, first of all, let me say I do not, as has now been suggested by two members opposite, consider it in any way shameful that I should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector. The $252 million of support is real and meaningful, and it is directed exactly where it is needed. As to the question about students, let me just point out that farm kids are students too, and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students. Meat packing plants like Quebec-based Olymel are extremely worried that they won't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic. In the summer, these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation. However, the Canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money. That's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors. carla qualtrough: I can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work. We are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through Canada summer jobs, through the the chair: There is a point of order. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, what the minister is saying is not being interpreted. carla qualtrough: Last week, as part of the measures announced around supporting our students, we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs, including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors. This is exactly what we're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy, and that's what we'll continue to do. richard lehoux: I'm not sure the minister understood my question about the Canada emergency student benefit. I am very concerned about the agricultural sector, but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind. A number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer. Minister, what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping? hon. We've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis. That's why we're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work. Pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country's shutdown triggered by the pandemic. For the past five years, the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved. When will the government make these changes, including the changes to agristability, and when can producers access them? hon. chrystia freeland: We announced over $77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus. To help livestock and pork producers, we established agrirecovery, a national initiative that will provide $125million to help producers adapt to market changes. The measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector, since the sector had asked for about $2.6billion. I think that it's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms, given the significant need for sovereignty. Many Canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear, as I was saying earlier. chrystia freeland: Our country, Canada, will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food. I want to mention another significant part of our announcement today, which is the $50million surplus food purchase program. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): We'll now move on to the next question. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): Madam Chair, how will the government's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the United States? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, in response to that, I would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society, so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people. We'll bring forward new authorities, new offences, new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border. We're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns. To deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally, there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences. blaine calkins: The government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts. A legal opinion that's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres. That is the same firearm that Olympic trap shooters, Olympic skeet shooters, duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis. First of all, we have prohibited large-bore weapons, such as grenade launchers, but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun, I would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width, both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on Friday. blaine calkins: Madam Chair, the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in Canada when it comes to firearms legislation. If the entirety of the barrel length is considered, then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres. There is no plan for a buyback program in this policy, and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms. Given this, and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners aren't committing any gun violence, what was the government's immediate benefit of making this announcement on May 1? hon. Along with the prohibition that we have put in place, we have also, using the order in council, established an amnesty period, but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons. They cannot be used, they can't be taken to the range for shooting, they can't be used for hunting, they can't be sold and they can't be transferred, so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use. We have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible, safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society. blaine calkins: Madam Chair, since January 1, 2002, any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until May 1 of this year. How many times was this most recent mass murderer here in Canada checked against a criminal database since January 2002? hon. bill blair: As the member is probably aware, there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms, and it's not appropriate to discuss that. However, I think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes. In the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder, they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to Canadians, and that's why we have prohibited them. I'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws, such as New Zealand, Australia and the United Kingdom, have also implemented very similar bans. I'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the HMCS Fredericton who died, and in particular to the family of Captain Kevin Hagen. Other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors, including in schools, on public transit and in stores. Taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces. Taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by COVID-19, and today it is number 119. Will Canada follow Taiwan's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get Canadians back to work? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for his question. There's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting Canadians' health and safety, but as the member has mentioned, there are many other aspects to ensuring that Canadians are safe no matter where they go. Social distancing can provide the most protection, in fact, when you're out in public or you're in another place where there are other people. Tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option, Canadians should consider wearing a mask. I'd like to give a shout-out to Martha and her team, who are doing a fundraiser for the SPCA by making masks for citizens in my riding. Madam Chair, many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan, including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income. Will the government make the CERB a universal benefit to ensure that all Canadians who need help get help? If not, will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their RRSP without penalties so that they can pay their bills? hon. We do recognize that OAS and GIS are very important parts of the retirement income of Canadians, particularly lower-income seniors. The CERB is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of COVID-19. We've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25%, and we've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable Canadians, including seniors the acting chair (mrs. paul manly: Many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer, particularly sole proprietorships. At the same time, we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services. Will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in Canada? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): I want to thank the hon. That is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in COVID-19. Whether it is a small business loan, a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance, or just lowering the cost by deferring GST or HST or customs duties, many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time. As we navigate this pandemic crisis, we are also in the middle of another major crisis: the climate emergency. Will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning? the acting chair (mrs. The focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken. As we look forward, we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon. Climate change is one of those, and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. First nations across northern Manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep COVID-19 out of their communities. Many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions, but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place, such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals. What is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility? Why isn't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in Berens River, a hospital in Cross Lake, a hospital in the Island Lake region? If the government couldn't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic, can it at least act in time for a potential second wave? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): Indeed, Madam Chair, one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we don't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading COVID-19. A lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations. In the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of COVID-19, there are many measures that Indigenous Services Canada and as a whole of government we will deploy, including surge capacity, increased PPE, and nurses and doctors. Obviously, we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem, and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of COVID-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures. niki ashton: Again, Madam Chair, to the Minister of Indigenous Services, many of us across northern Canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern Saskatchewan, centred in La Loche. Your government says it's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe, yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns. Will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now? hon. Members won't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing. We are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the Mtis and Dene communities in La Loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect. This is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute, and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources, along with Meadow Lake and the Northern Inter-Tribal Health Authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem. marc miller: One of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads, particularly the fear of clusters as communities, provinces, territories may choose to relax certain measures, is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it, particularly in northern and vulnerable communities. This is something for which we will need to have a serious approach, with both the Minister of Natural Resources and also our provincial counterparts, to make sure that we aren't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading COVID-19. Hundreds of fishers and their families here in Manitoba who work with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation are desperately calling for emergency support. Many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the FFMC to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing. When will your government announce support for inland fishers, including here in Manitoba, and will you work to ensure that their product, healthy fish, can be provided here at home for people who need it? hon. bernadette jordan: Madam Chair, we know that COVID-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities, especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance. Indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $306 million we've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses. The funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions. We also announced earlier that the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency has made available $15 million in non-repayable support for businesses. We know that there's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters. I don't want to talk about the $1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats. I want to ask the minister why she isn't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens, a legal but immoral practice in this day and age. Can she explain why she isn't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance, which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens? hon. diane lebouthillier: MadamChair, as soon as our government took office in 2015, we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats. Our government's historic investments of almost $1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work. claude debellefeuille: MadamChair, does the minister realize that she's being filmed and recorded and that she isn't answering my question? I don't want to talk about cheats. I want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens. Can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens? How much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism? The government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-COVID-19. Regarding tax evasion abroad, our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the Conservatives. However, I don't understand the government's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism, which is legal but completely immoral. The Fdration de la relve agricole du Qubec and the UPA approached the Minister of Finance two weeks ago and still haven't received a response regarding the following issue. As a result, these farms are being penalized because they aren't eligible for the $40,000 in loans available through the Canada emergency business account. To qualify for these loans, the farms needed a payroll of $20,000 to $1.5million in 2019. Does the Minister of Finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $40,000 in loans? hon. The tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis, yet despite the Prime Minister's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed Canadians who work in tourism, there's still been nothing from this government. I had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector, and clearly there's a lot of anxiety. We also had the chance to work with all the G20 ministers of tourism all together, and we know we have to act the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Tourism-based communities like the ones in Banff and Canmore, which I represent, are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85% or higher. They also don't qualify for a lot of the programs because they're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from May to October, so they're at risk of losing their entire season. Will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help? What does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic? hon. Obviously, the tourism sector has access to many measures, including the CEBA account, the $40,000 account. They will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies, and we'll be coming up with the details soon. Of course, in my colleague's riding of Banff, which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem, they will have access to the support through WD, western economic diversification. If there are particular cases you would like to raise with me, I would be more than happy to talk to you to see how, on the ground, we can help the tourism operators. It doesn't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they'll have after the pandemic. Another industry that's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry. It's another industry the Prime Minister has promised to help, but there hasn't been anything. The only so-called assistance there's been to help hurting Albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in. Will the Liberal government ever show any concern for Albertans? Will they bring forward a plan to preserve Canadian jobs? Will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of Canadian oil before oil coming in from places like Saudi Arabia? hon. Chair, the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry. We have the Canada emergency wage subsidy, which covers 75% of an employee's wages for the employer. We have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $15 million to $60 million from the Business Development Bank of Canada. We continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of COVID-19 on my province here in Newfoundland and Labrador and on Alberta and Saskatchewan. These three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time, a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with COVID-19. Chair, a lot of these things we're hearing about aren't going to actually help the industry to recover. Maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of Canadians back to work. Will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects? Will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of Canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like Saudi Arabia? hon. We have been working with labour, concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers. We're particularly proud of our orphan wells program, which was launched by the Alberta government in conjunction with us. I am pleased to inform this House that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the impact of COVID-19 on Canada. Several petitions were presented, including recognizing indigenous languages as official languages, improving the organ donation system, promoting a made-in-Canada green economy, decriminalizing drug possession for public health reasons, and protecting firearm ownership for law-abiding citizens. During the meeting, Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus expressed his opposition to gun-control legislation and the release of prisoners during the pandemic. However, the Prime Minister disagreed, stating that these measures were necessary for the safety of Canadians. Mr. Paul-Hus raised concerns about taking guns away from criminals and the quick release of dangerous inmates. The Prime Minister defended his position, citing his mandate to ban military-style assault weapons and the importance of protecting correctional services from the virus.

Summarize the discussion on the introduction of petitions and prioritization of government matters, including the opinions of Paul-Hus and the Prime Minister.

anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): We'll call this meeting to order. Welcome to the fifth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Pursuant to the order passed on Monday, April20, the committee is meeting today to consider ministerial announcements, to allow members of the committee to present petitions, and to question ministers, including the Prime Minister, about the COVID-19 pandemic. Tomorrow, May8, Dr.AndreaMcCrady, Dominion Carillonneur, will give a special recital to mark the 75th anniversary of Victory in Europe Day. Victory in Europe Day, VE Day, commemorates the formal acceptance of Germany's surrender by allied forces at the end of the Second World War. While the pandemic prevents us from gathering to celebrate in person, tomorrow at noon the voice of our nation will ring out in remembrance of this milestone in our history. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee. I would like to remind members that, as in the House of Commons or committee, they should not take photos of their colleagues or film the proceedings. In order to facilitate the work of the interpreters and to allow the meeting to proceed smoothly, I would ask you to follow some instructions. When you are ready to speak, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone, or hold the space bar down while you are speaking. If you release the bar, your microphone will revert to mute, just like a walkie-talkie. Honourable members, I would like to remind you that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should you need to request the floor outside of your designated speaking time, you should activate your mike and state that you have a point of order. If a member of the committee wishes to intervene on a point of order raised by another person, you should use the raised hand function to indicate to the chair that you wish to speak. Should any technical challenges arise, for example, in relation to interpretation, please advise the chair immediately by raising a point of order, and the technical team will work on resolving them. If you get accidentally disconnected, please try to rejoin the meeting with the information you used to join initially. Before we get started, please note that in the top right-hand corner of your screen is a button that you can use to change views. Speaker view allows you to focus on the person currently speaking; gallery view allows you to see a larger number of participants. You can click through the multiple pages in the gallery view to see who is on and how many more participants there are. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. In addition, to ensure a petition is considered properly presented, the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for a petition certified in a previous Parliament should be mailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. Chair, five years ago when Parliament passed Bill C-14, then justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould said that it represented a finely tuned balance between access and safeguards. Petitioners on the first petition I'm presenting are very concerned to see Bill C-7 before Parliament, which removes safeguards ahead of that five-year review. Petitioners specifically mention their concerns about the removal of the mandatory 10-day reflection period, which can already be waived in certain circumstances. They are concerned about reducing the number of witnesses required to oversee it and ensure that a request has been properly made. The second and final petition that I will be presenting today is with respect to Senate Bill S-204. This would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who did not consent. This responds specifically to concerns about organ harvesting in the People's Republic of China involving Falun Gong practitioners and increasing concerns that this is being or about to be applied to Uighurs as well. Petitioners are noting that in the previous Parliament there were bills on this, Bill C-350 and Bill S-240. Now, in this Parliament there is a bill, Bill S-204, and the petitioners hope that this 43rd Parliament will be the one that gets it passed. This is my first occasion to present a petition in our virtual format of the COVID-19 committee. The petition I am presenting today, which was previously approved, is from a number of constituents who are concerned that we pursue the Paris Agreement to hold the global average temperature increase to no more than 1.5C. The Paris Agreement itself embeds in it the concept of Just Transition with a capital J and a capital T, the concept of just transition ensuring fairness and support for all workers in the fossil fuel sector. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to move forward with an act to ensure just transition and to ensure adequate funding so that workers and communities dependent on the fossil fuel sector receive meaningful support to ensure security in their lives in the transition to more sustainable energy use. I want to thank the honourable members for their usual collaboration and now we'll go on to mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): On a point of order, Mr. Chair, on Tuesday, at our COVID-19 committee of the whole meeting, I was asking a question which started at 12:56:06 and was cut off at 1:00:32, so I still have 34 seconds of time remaining in my question time of five minutes. If you believe that my time was unjustly cut off and that it was unfair treatment of the official opposition when we were raising our points of order, I would ask that the 34 seconds be tacked on to the opening round for the opposition and credited to Rosemarie Falk, who will be leading off for the Conservatives. the chair: Normally what happens is the chair uses judgment, and with 35 seconds, there isn't enough time obviously for a full question or answer, most of the time. I want everyone to know that I do have a timer next to me and I am timing the questions, and I will be treating the answers the same way. We've taken a little bit of the chair's ability to give judgment on it, but it will be from now on. I would like to remind the honourable members that no member will be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair. Will the Prime Minister stand up for Canada's energy workers, or does he agree with the fringe left and those who want to destroy our country? ms. Chair, I believe that the language that the honourable member just used is unparliamentary mr. It is unacceptable to assert that anyone who wants to make a point about our economy is trying to destroy the country. As I pointed out this morning in my press conference, we cannot move forward on a transformation of our energy sector without supporting the workers in that energy sector. We need their innovation and we need their hard work if we are going to lower our emissions, if we are going to reach our the chair: We'll go to Ms. Chair, it has been 43 days since the finance minister promised Canada's energy sector liquidity through the Business Development Bank of Canada. If the government doesn't step up to support our energy sector, they are in effect doubling down on their support for foreign, unethically sourced oil. Chair, when will the credit options be available to Canada's small and medium energy firms? the chair: I want to remind honourable members that we do have interpreters who are listening and translating. Chair, from the very beginning, our priority through this pandemic and this crisis has been to support workers across the country. We have sent billions of dollars to workers right across the country, including Alberta, Saskatchewan, B.C., and Newfoundland and Labrador in the energy sector for them to be able to support their families through this difficult time. The announcements to date fall well short of what is needed to maintain a steady supply of affordable and healthy food. Instead of responding to specific COVID-19 challenges, our farmers are facing the Liberals' reannounced $125 million that was already budgeted in the AgriRecovery program. Will the Prime Minister finally step up and take our food supply chain seriously, or is agriculture just an afterthought for him? right hon. Chair, we take agriculture and our agricultural sector extremely seriously, which is why we announced hundreds of millions of dollars a couple of days ago to respond to pressing needs. We will continue to make investments to ensure both the safety of workers in our agricultural sector and the safety of our communities, as well as the continued flow of high-quality Canadian food onto our tables right across the country. Our farmers are faced with rising operational costs, a disrupted service industry, labour shortages and a reduced capacity at processing plants. When will the Prime Minister deliver adequate support to address the critical changes facing our ag industry? right hon. Chair, I would suggest respectfully that the honourable member take a look once again at the announcement we made, which actually highlights significant new investments to support our agricultural industry. Every step of the way in this unprecedented situation, we've been moving forward on doing more, on adjusting and on investing more. We need to support our agricultural sector and the people who work so hard to put food on Canadians' tables right across the country and we will continue to. Chair, Canadians expect to find healthy and affordable food at their grocery stores, but if the government does not take action now, that's not a given. It is an enormous hit to their bottom line, and the recent carbon tax hike is taking even more money out of the pockets of farmers at a time when they can afford it the least. Will the Prime Minister exempt all farm operations from the carbon tax and reimburse the money that they have already taken from them? right hon. Chair, it's a shame to hear the member opposite accidentallyunintentionally, I'm certainmislead the House and Canadians. This is the way of creating a better future for our kids and grandkids, which I know people in communities right across the country, including our farm communities, want to see happen. We are moving forward in a responsible way to put a price on pollution and put more money in average Canadians' pockets. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I am thinking about the lobster fishery in the Magdalen Islands, the crab fishery on the Cte-Nord or those fishing for herring in the south of the Gasp. Because imports have ceased, because the domestic market is weak and in decline because of the interruption of the tourism and restaurant industries, the fishing industry and its fishers must be supported. justin trudeau: Our fishers do exceptional work that is extremely important in feeding Canadians and in contributing to our economic success through their exports around the world. I know about the processing industry and the $62.5million to be used essentially for freezing products, but I am talking about the fishers themselves. In addition, they feel that they will be losing money, because of the drop in the price of their resource. They are just as essential as farmers, but they are going to have to work at a loss and they are not going to have workers to assist them. Are you going to do anything else, in addition to the assistance of $62.5million? Time is of the essence. We recognize the challenges that fishers must face in terms of social distancing and of work that is often seasonal. We are going to continue working with the industry, with the fishers, and with the coastal communities in order to ensure that people have confidence in their abilities and in their future. In times of crisis, it is important for the government to be there to support people, and that is exactly what we are going to continue to do. But, given the cyclical nature of the industry, some sectors have had to postpone for several weeks the preparations they need for fishing activities. The current program could be modified in a number of ways, to accommodate the cycle, the dates, and the size of the companies. They would really like to take advantage of the $40,000loan, but they cannot because of their payroll. I can already suggest a number of solutions to the government and to the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, that would bring help to those businesses very quickly. The fishers carry on, because it is a duty for them, because they want to help us and to be part of the effort at this time of crisis. I would really like to hear a guarantee that they will be supported, that they will be able to put food on the table this year, and that they will be able to support the communities that often depend on the fishing industry, a major industry in those communities. justin trudeau: Minister Jordan has been working with the fishers, the fishing industry and the communities affected by the crisis since the crisis began. From the outset, our priority has been to support the millions of Canadians from coast to coast who have lost their jobs. We have been able to do so, but we are going to continue to work for those who must now face difficulties. the chair: Before we move to the next question, I would like to remind members of the committee to speak slowly, and to address their remarks to the chair and not directly to each other. They've seen revenues plummet, and at the same time the cost of delivering municipal services has risen. As the Prime Minister knows, municipalities are unable to run deficits and so they are facing the reality of cutbacks and serious cuts to the services that Canadians depend on. They're going to be even more important during the recovery, especially when it comes to delivering on the infrastructure programs before us. My question for the Prime Minister is, when can they expect federal financial support to arrive? right hon. Chair, no government in Canada's history has done more to work with our municipalities, with our cities, with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to respond to the challenges they're facing and to partner with them. Things from infrastructure to investments have made a huge difference right across the country in the quality of life of Canadians in towns, large and small, from coast to coast to coast. As I'm sure the member well knows, our Constitution requires that most of the funding for municipalities flow through the provinces. We are working with the provinces, as we continue to work with the cities, to ensure that we're able to support this order of government that delivers the vast majority of services to Canadians with very little financial means. Chair, it would seem that the federal government has the fiscal capacity and the responsibility to help municipalities weather this crisis. Transit systems have been hit particularly hard and have seen the bulk of the layoffs in the municipal sector. These transit services carry essential workers to work, whether they are health care workers, grocery store workers, janitors or others. We will see service cutbacks precisely at a time when we want to be expanding transit and improving transit in our communities. Does the Prime Minister acknowledge that the federal government needs to step in to safeguard and protect Canada's transit services? right hon. Chair, this federal government recognizes how important it is to support all Canadians, which is why we put forward unprecedented measures to help millions upon millions of Canadians with the CERB and with the wage subsidy. I'll be having a conversation with all other first ministers tonight to talk about a broad range of issues. We have continued to engage with them, but again, it is important to respect the Constitution and understand that funding for municipalities and cities does go through the provinces. The federal government is happy to be there to support, but it must be the chair: We will go to Mr. Chair, I am wondering how the Prime Minister could explain to a bus driver in Vancouver who has been laid off that as a public sector worker, she can't access the federal wage subsidy, while an equivalent worker in the airline industry gets to keep her job with the federal help of that program. Chair, I'm happy to explain to the member and to all Canadians that our Constitution creates federal areas of jurisdiction and provincial areas of jurisdiction. The airline industry, like banking, like telecommunications, is a federal area of jurisdiction that we have been able to move forward on. More than that, we brought the Canada emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy to all industries across this country, because we knew that as the federal government, it was something that we needed to step up on the chair: We will go back to Mr. Faced with minimal health care capacity, remote indigenous communities in my riding are taking matters into their own hands. The Nuxalk have put up a checkpoint on Highway 20 to protect community members and prevent non-essential travel. In particular, it is to protect the three remaining fluent speakers of the Nuxalk language, these cherished elders in their community. The Haida on Haida Gwaii have set up a similar checkpoint, as have communities throughout British Columbia, yet federal support for indigenous communities amounts to only $39 million for all of the indigenous communities in B.C. Does the Prime Minister not agree that more support is warranted to help indigenous communities in my riding and across the country? right hon. Chair, from the very beginning, we made funds available to Canadians right across the country, particularly people in indigenous remote or northern communities who we knew would be facing more difficult challenges because of the existing vulnerabilities in their health care system and socio-economic circumstances. We have made unprecedented investments and we will continue to make the necessary investments, because we need to make sure that indigenous Canadians, and indeed all Canadians, have the supports they need to make it through this crisis. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): Thank you very much, Mr.Chair. I am going to keep talking about the area of jurisdiction that the Prime Minister likes to talk about, except that I want to point out the incompetence of the Liberals in keeping their commitments on infrastructure projects. As the provinces gradually restart their economies, can the Prime Minister tell us how many projects that the provinces have submitted are waiting for approval from his government? mr. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, I hope that the length of the pause will not be taken out of my time. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): I'm sorry, Mr.Chair, I was on mute. It is very important to build projects that will create good jobs the chair: We are returning to Mr.Berthold. How many projects are currently awaiting government approval? I know that the minister has been meeting virtually with the provinces over the last few days. Rather than wait for the right political opportunity to approve these files, will the minister commit today to respecting the provinces and approving by next week all the projects that are sitting on her desk? hon. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, I'm pleased with how we are working with the provinces and territories. We will announce the approval of projects because it's very important for our economy, our communities and creating good jobs. luc berthold: Does the minister understand that she hasn't told us how many projects are still pending? The construction season is very short. Approval of a project in July means that work can't begin until next year, which won't help revive our economy. catherine mckenna: I want to make it clear that we have approved hundreds of projects in the last few weeks. These projects are important for the economy and the environment, as well as for jobs the chair: We return now to Mr.Berthold. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, while the minister is calling for a green recovery of the country's economy, public transit is at risk. The Union des municipalits du Qubec estimates that the monthly losses are between $75million and $100million. catherine mckenna: Mr.Chair, we recognize the importance of public transit for our economy, since some essential workers use public transit. As the Prime Minister said, it's the provinces that must help because the money the chair: We return now to Mr.Berthold. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, once again, what we're hearing is that the government is passing the buck to the provinces. Unfortunately, the minister was unable to answer a single question about the number of infrastructure projects still on the federal government's desk, which is very important. In terms of the number of projects that we've approved, I would be happy to inform the hon. member of the exact number of all the approved projects that my department has been working very hard on over the past few months to approve projects to go forward. luc berthold: Mr.Chair, do I have any time left? the chair: No, your time is up. On March 28, the minister personally tweeted out a thank you to the People's Republic of China for donating PPE to Canada. More recently, Taiwan donated half a million surgical masks to Canada, yet here we are, two weeks later, and the minister has yet to personally thank Taiwan for its generosity. I can say, after my COVID foreign ministers call, that the world community has come together to make sure that supply chains will remain intact and that we will have transit hubs and air bridges. Chair, I didn't hear a thank you there, so I'm going to try again. On May 4, the Government of Taiwan delivered 25,000 surgical masks to the Government of British Columbia. Minister of Citizens' Services Anne Kang and Minister of State for Child Care Katrina Chen, who, as ministers, officially thanked the Government of Taiwan for its donation. Again, will the minister now do the right thing and, on behalf of Canadians, recognize the generosity of Taiwan and thank its government for that timely donation? hon. Chair, as I said to you before, Canada is grateful to all who have given supplies to Canada. As I said, when it comes to global health, when it comes to helping each other, I think it is a duty for all to come together. We are grateful and thankful for all those who have agreed to help Canada and Canadians from coast to coast to coast in times of need. I've repeated that and have said many times in many forums that we are grateful and thankful to all of those who are helping Canada. The Government of Taiwan has been the world leader in successfully fighting the COVID-19 pandemic. Sadly, the People's Republic of China continues to oppose Taiwan's membership in the World Health Organization. Will the minister now do the right thing and assure Canadians that he will fully support efforts to grant Taiwan membership in the World Health Organization? hon. That said, we support Taiwan to continue meaningful participation in international multilateral forums, particularly when it comes to health. We also believe that Taiwan's role as an observer in the World Health Assembly meeting is of interest to the international health community and we have been supportive of that. Can he tell us exactly how many Canadians remain abroad who have expressed a desire to be repatriated? hon. As of today, we have repatriated more than 20,000 Canadians on 232 flights from 87 countries. As the Prime Minister and I have said from the beginning, we will make our best effort to repatriate everyone who wants to come back home during the crisis. My office has received correspondence from Canadians concerned that trial delays due to COVID-19 may result in criminals walking free. As this government has been working overtime to criminalize law-abiding citizens with new and useless gun laws, will the Minister of Justice ensure that real criminals will not walk free as a result of delays in the justice system? hon. We have been working with my provincial counterparts across Canada, as well as with the various federal courts and also, through my provincial counterparts, with the superior courts and courts of appeal across Canada. Each particular jurisdiction has taken measures to ensure that basic essential services within the court system are maintained, through a variety of means, and we believe that we will be able to solve these various challenges. Chair, the regional relief and recovery fund was announced weeks ago as a way to help small and medium-sized businesses in rural communities, like those in my riding. Can the minister clarify whether we are days away or weeks away from this support flowing to the businesses that need it so desperately? hon. Chair, I had the chance to talk with many of the chambers of commerce and business owners throughout Atlantic Canada, and we hear their anxiety. That's why ACOA's doing great work on the ground to make sure we can help them through this very difficult period. We have increased the budget of ACOAgood newsand I'll be coming up with the details very soon. It will be a pleasure to collaborate with him to make sure that we can help many businesses and business owners across the Atlantic region. In particular, they are unable to access the emergency business account, because they do not have a payroll. There are hundreds and thousands of small businesses in this very situation, vital small businesses in our communities, but they do not meet this requirement. What does the Minister of Finance have to say to these small businesses that are suffering right now? hon. I want all the businesses that he is talking about and all of them throughout the country to know that we continue to work very hard to make sure they're supported through this difficult period. We know that businesses are being supported through getting access to the wage subsidy to keep their employees together, and they're getting help, whether it's with rent or to defray costs by deferring GST and HST or customs duty payments. Some have a personal account that they've dealt with over the years rather than a business account, and that makes them ineligible. Chair, small businesses are concerned about their ability to survive, and no amount of deferrals, loans or subsidies can substitute for their need to be open and servicing their customers. Can the government confirm that a sectoral risk analysis has taken place to assist the provinces in reopening the economy? hon. Chair, I can assure the member that we've been very clear in terms of our strategy around reopening the economy. We need to make sure that we follow the advice of the experts and the health authorities to do so in a manner that does not compromise the health and well-being of Canadians. We of course will have a sectoral lens, and as you can see by some of the initiatives and the support packages we've put forward the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Can the government confirm that the programs currently in place will be expanded to these hard-working Canadians? hon. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we continue to work with all of our small businesses and I want to thank him for raising this very important issue. I want to assure our Canadian small businesses that we are going to continue to do this work to make sure they are supported. james cumming: Can the minister give me a date when she will be able to announce to these businesses that they will be eligible? hon. mary ng: I want to assure our Canadian small businesses of their importance and of the importance of their contributions to all of our communities. I want them to know that we continue to listen and that we will ensure that they are supported and continue to be supported during this difficult time. Can you give me a date when I can tell these thousands of businesses they will be supported if they pay dividends or if they use contractors within their businesses? hon. The landlord says that he doesn't have the 25% needed to be eligible for the program because he's already paying for common area costs and deferrals on utilities, which he will have to pay on his mortgage. Will the government reform the rent relief program to focus on tenants and not just the landlords? hon. Chair, I want to let the member know that we are working to make sure that the details of the emergency program for rent are out there so that both tenants and landlords can understand the situation. We're seeing a significant number of both landlords and tenants coming forward to register for this program, and we are convinced that it will be in the best interests of landlords to move forward and give tenants this relief. Chair, we've been hearing, however, from small business owners that their landlords don't find the government's rent relief program appealing enough. Can the government confirm, given the program's low eligibility rate, that the program will be expanded and be more efficient in helping tenants? hon. Chair, we recognize that it's critically important that all of the details of this program be out there for landlords and tenants to understand. This is a program that we've put out within the last week, and we are confident that it's in the best interests of tenants and landlords. One easy way to do that would be to expand the Canada summer jobs program to businesses with over 50 employees. Will the government consider doing so to allow students to gain that very valuable work experience over the coming months? hon. The second uptake provided employers across the country with the ability to add their needs for students to the mix. During this pandemic, the government has consistently called for a team Canada, non-partisan approach, and I was glad to hear that said a little earlier today. However, at the same time, the current government has used a parliamentary back door to launch a poorly thought out gun ban. We have a government that didn't win the popular vote, and I'm just wondering how I explain to my residents, because I'm getting so many calls, that this is not a bloated response because, quite frankly, it is. Chair, I think the honourable member can explain to his constituents that the forming of regulations through order in council is actually the process prescribed in law in Canada under section 117.15 of the Criminal Code. I would also invite the member to advise his constituents that way back in 1991, when there were some Conservatives who called themselves Progressive, the Mulroney government brought forward, in Bill C-17, the authority under that section for an order in council to prescribe specific makes, models and variants of military firearms as prohibited or restricted. terry dowdall: I'm not sure, but I'm hoping, that I'll get an honest answer on this question from the minister, who has everything from rocket launchers to basically toy guns on the ban list. When will we get the cost of this buyback program? the chair: I want to remind the honourable members to please be careful in their language when they are referring to others. I won't comment on this one particularly, but I want all of you to be very, very careful when referring to other members. Chair, to respond to some of the obfuscations and deceptions that have been put out there. I think it's very clear, and I invite the member to look at the list of weapons that are the chair: We'll go back to Mr. bill blair: Actually, I'm very much looking forward to bringing forward legislation as soon as the House resumes. We will have a vigorous debate in Parliament about the form a buyback will take and we will bring forward a budget at that time. bill blair: If people are illegally in possession of the weapons and they're committing a crime, they will be dealt with for the crimes they commit. Canadians in my riding who suffer from cystic fibrosis are among the most vulnerable to COVID-19 infection. While these Canadians with existing lung conditions are incredibly worried about a virus that attacks the ability to breathe, the good news is that there are life-saving medicines for those with CF. I am wondering if and when the government will correct these guidelines and give access to life-saving medicines for our most vulnerable. Chair, as you know, the government has been very committed to improving access and affordability for prescription medications for all Canadians. The PMPRB regulatory amendments will help Canadians be able to afford their prescriptions, and Canada will continue to be an important market for new medicines. In fact, many countries with much lower medicine prices gained access to new medicines in the same time frame as Canada frame, or even faster, so we are excited to do this work. Chair, our seniors are being particularly hard hit right now during this pandemic, yet seniors have not been given any direct support. Funding to charities like the United Way is being labelled as support for seniors, but most won't see any of this support. Seniors in my riding have asked for an increase in their CPP and OAS, and to be able to make untaxed bulk withdrawals from their RRSPs while they still have some value. deb schulte (minister of seniors): I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic. the chair: You might want to try your space bar and keep it down while you're speaking. I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic. We've reduced the minimum RRIF withdrawal by 25%, and we've made the CERB available to working seniors who have lost their jobs due to the COVID pandemic. We know there's more work to do, and we'll have more to say in the future. the chair: I want to remind honourable members that if there are issues, we are taking note of them, and we'll hopefully resolve them by the next meeting. marie-hlne gaudreau (laurentideslabelle, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. In fact, we have been looking at a number of ways to support increased contact tracing across the country, including working with provinces and territories to boost their capacity through human resources and volunteer organizations. Anything we put forward as a digital tool to assist with contact tracing would be thoroughly considerate of Canadians' privacy rights. But you know as well as I do that the Privacy Commissioner has been calling us to task for a very long time now, because there is also a crisis of confidence. You know as well as I do that for 90%of Canadians, the misuse of their personal data is a cause for concern, whether it be for profiling or business development purposes. I'd like to know whether this commitment will be implemented quickly so that legislation can be passed on this issue, in this case the Privacy Act. We're talking about what is going on in Quebec, among other places, and I would like to make sure that the federal government commits to respecting the proposals regarding geolocation and contact tracing possibilities, with full respect for the right to privacy. We have worked very closely with provinces and territories for a long time before the outbreak, but certainly ever since the outbreak. We respect the rights of jurisdictional authorities to use tools that have been properly vetted through their own provincial and territorial legislation. marie-hlne gaudreau: Concerning privacy, there are 30million Quebeckers and Canadians who have had their personal data leaked. Why is it that our laws don't allow us to apply financial penalties so that we can then go further? The very basis is to be concerned about our fundamental rights. As the critic for access to information and privacy, I'd like a commitment that the federal government will deal not with what the provinces are doing, but with the Privacy Act. the chair: Your time is up, but I'll give the floor to the minister for 30seconds. Our government will ensure the privacy of Canadians is respected, support responsible innovation and take reasonable steps to strengthen enforcement powers. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, in my riding of Etobicoke Centre, we are mourning the loss of 40 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville long-term care centre. Of all Canadians who have died from COVID-19, 79% were living in long-term care homes. I understand that long-term care homes fall within the jurisdiction of provincial governments in Canada, but this is a crisis. What is the federal government doing right now to help protect our seniors who are living in long-term care homes from COVID-19? What will we do to reform our long-term care homes in the future to ensure that our seniors in Etobicoke Centre and across Canada get the care they deserve? hon. We are deeply concerned by the outbreaks of COVID-19 in long-term care facilities, and our thoughts are with those who have lost a loved one. As my colleague mentioned, while these facilities are regulated by provinces and territories, we have been focused on protecting the health and safety of long-term care residents and staff while working with our partners in a team Canada approach. We're working with the provinces and territories to cost-share a temporary salary top-up for long-term care workers. We are working through investing $2 billion to secure personal protective equipment for the health of workers, including those in the long-term care homes, and we've deployed the Canadian Armed Forces to assist 25 long-term care homes in Quebec and Ontario. We all have a role to play to stop the spread of COVID-19 and to protect our seniors and caregivers. At the finance committee, we've heard a lot of concerns from all sectors of the economy as a result of COVID-19 and we've been presented with quite a number of possible solutions as well, several of which the government has acted upon. It is very welcome support, but I sincerely believe the farm sector will be taking the Prime Minister up on the suggestion that $250 million should be seen as an initial investment. However, as a result of reduced processor contracts for next year, plus cancelled seed contracts, millions of dollars of seed and process potatoes have no home. How does the minister see Tuesday's announcement addressing potato farmers' concerns? Second, in 2013, long-term financial safety nets were gutted by the Harper government. We know the importance of our potato farmers, and that's why we are launching a first-ever surplus food purchase program, a $50-million fund designed to help redistribute existing inventories, such as potatoes, to local food organizations. On the financial safety net that we have in place for our farmers, called the business risk management program, we announced up to $125 million in funding through AgriRecovery and made changes to AgriStability that will help producers quickly. In the meantime, I want to reiterate that BRM programs, including AgriInvest, are there to help farmers in difficult times. Robyn, who has owned Arbutus Health in Tofino for over 13 years, can't apply for the Canada emergency business account loan, simply because she doesn't have a payroll of over $20,000. With no business income and without emergency financing, it is virtually impossible for her to pay her bills or come up with the 25% needed for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program. The government promised to be flexible and willing to adjust its COVID response rollout so that nobody falls through the cracks, but Robyn, like tens of thousands of proprietors who are the economic job creators of our communities, urgently needs the government's help now. Will the government amend its programs to help more business owners so that people like Robyn don't lose their businesses? hon. I know he and I have talked about this, and I appreciate the input and the feedback that he is providing from business directly. I want to assure Robyn and her businesses, and many businesses across the country, that we are absolutely listening, and we will continue to make sure we are supporting those businesses during this period. We also know that more has to be done, and we will continue to work with you and businesses across the country so that we can indeed give them that necessary support to weather this difficult period of COVID-19. I was talking to Heather last night, who also owns a business in Tofino, Basic Goodness Pizzeria, with her partner Marco. Like many proprietors of family businesses who aren't on payroll, they don't qualify for the business loans. Now with the new rollout of the rent support, they're not sure if their landlord is willing to play ball and even apply. Heather was in tears last night as she told me that they have done nothing wrong to deserve being excluded from these emergency programs. Will the government fix the rent support program so that tenants can apply, instead of leaving it up to landlords, and so businesses can get the help they desperately need? hon. We've been working on offering a response for small businesses and charities and non-profit organizations, and we are continuing to listen on the ground to how we can better assist the businesses that fall through the cracks. Chair, when the government rolled out its commercial rent support program, why didn't it negotiate an eviction moratorium with the provinces, as Australia and other countries did, to protect business owners? hon. We've recognized it and we've been working with the provinces and territories to implement the Canada emergency commercial rent the chair: We'll go back to Mr. gord johns: To qualify for the Canada emergency wage subsidy, a 30% drop in revenue has to be shown. Anyone who's owned a business knows that even with this program, it's going to be hard to survive. Why is the government using a 70% measurement drop to qualify for the rent support program, but a 30% drop for the wage subsidy? hon. We've been working with provinces and territories to provide forgivable loans to commercial property owners, who in turn lower the rents for their tenants by 75%. We're hoping that tenants and landlords will be working together so we can support businesses during this very difficult crisis. the chair: Before we move on to the next question, Mr.Berthold, did you have a question or a point of order? mr. I checked the clock from the first round of five minutes, and as you may recall, it took a very long time for me to get an answer from the government. During my first turn, it took 50seconds before a government minister deigned to answer my questions. After checking my time, I realized that the discussion between Ms.McKenna and I went on for four minutes and 14seconds, so I wasn't able to ask the minister one final question, a very important one. I would ask you to take that into account and allow me to ask MinisterMcKenna one last question, please. the chair: The person chairing the meeting uses their judgment and does their best to keep an eye on what's going on. I think it's more or less equal for all the members, but I apologize if the honourable member feels that he was denied a few seconds. bill blair: The decision to close the border was made in Canada by Canadians in the best interest of Canadians. todd doherty: When will the government be in a position to inform Canadians of any changes to the agreement? hon. bill blair: I'm pleased to advise the member that we're continuing to monitor the situation, but I'm strongly of the opinion that the circumstances on both sides of our border do not indicate that this is the right time to make a change in the restrictions. todd doherty: Can the government confirm whether there are any discussions about reopening the border to certain modes of transportation and restricting others? the chair: Before I go to the minister, I want to remind the honourable members that we do have translators, and they are trying to translate. With respect to them, I know we're trying to get as many questions in as possible, but they do have to translate them, so please be considerate of our interpreters. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Let me please inform the honourable member that we are, of course, aware that the current agreement expires. navdeep bains: We are engaged with the industry, and we are working with them on a solution, Mr. Chair, will this relief package include funding for airline ticket refunds similar to what other countries around the world have done? Yes or no? hon. Chair, I can confirm that Air Canada has now adopted a policy of checking temperatures for passengers boarding Air Canada flights. Last week I asked the Minister of Labour if they were aware of a letter written on April 6 by CUPE to the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Labour. Minister, were you aware of that letter? the chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair and not directly. todd doherty: On April 6, CUPE wrote a letter to the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Labour. Before that I had conversations with CUPE with respect to flight attendants and the use of personal protective equipment. todd doherty: Can the minister confirm whether or not they have provided PPE to the flight attendants and/or training for front-line staff for airlines and airports? hon. This has become a policy to ensure the safety not only of passengers on board but also of the flight attendants and flight crew. He stated that he couldn't give his small business tenants a break on rent because the government is penalizing him for paying off his mortgage. Chair, as you know, we laid out the CECRA program just last week, and we are encouraging landlords to take that opportunity to support the renters. Is the minister aware of this, and are they trying to revise the CECRA program? hon. mona fortier: As you know, we've been working with provinces and territories to present that program. We are asking, actually encouraging, landlords to do their part and help tenants, like the one you mentioned, go through this. It's been heartbreaking, frankly, to hear that everything they've built and sacrificed for is in serious jeopardy, and through no fault of their own. Your government has created programs that are supposed to help them, but many legitimate businesses aren't able to apply. I'm hoping to hear specifics, not just nice words, on what you're going to do to help them. First, businesses that recently incorporatedfor example, in late 2019are unable to apply their entire 2019 payroll. As a result, many are falling short of the $20,000 payroll threshold required to qualify for this loan. What is your government going to do about these three scenarios? the chair: I just want to remind honourable members to place their questions through the Chair and not directly to the minister. As well, please take into consideration the interpreters, who have to listen and translate, so that we can have this conversation. Right from the very beginning, we've always said that we will listen and that we will work to make sure that measures go out to help our Canadian small businesses. She's absolutely right: 98% of all our businesses in this country are small businesses, so they absolutely contribute enormously to our communities and are job creators. For the Canada emergency business account, over 550,000 small businesses have been approved and are getting that support. I can assure the honourable member that we will continue to do this work so that businesses, all businesses, are supported, whether it is helping keep your employees together, helping with rent support, helping to keep your business's expenses low, or of course helping with the capital that is needed so that you can pay your operating expenses and your bills through this difficult time. Moving on, there are two issues regarding the 50% commercial rent assistance subsidy, where landlords pay 25%, the government pays 50%, and the tenant is responsible for 25%. First, many of the small landlords aren't able to take a 25% hit to their income, and are unable to provide the subsidy to their tenants. Second, with the 70% decline in revenue threshold for small businesses to even be eligible for the rent assist, many restaurants are at 65% or 67% decline. What is the government planning to do to streamline this program for small businesses that can't access but desperately need the rent subsidy? hon. Chair, as the Minister of Official Languages, I just want to raise the fact that interpretation is very complicated right now. In order to make sure that we can continue to uphold bilingualism within the House, I would love it if my colleagues could take down the pace a bit. I just want to remind everyone again that when you're asking a question, make sure you are doing it at a pace at which you're considering the people who are interpreting ms. mona fortier: As you know, we've been working with the provinces and territories to provide this forgivable loan to commercial property owners, who in turn lower the rent of their tenants by 75%. It will be very important that we understand what happens across the country, and we will monitor and adapt the program as we ms. Chair, it has been in the media quite a bit that this rent subsidy is not helping many, many, many small business owners. It's falling short of everything that was announced, so I think it needs to be taken a bit more seriously than that. We know that some still fall through the cracks and we will look at how we can continue to support businesses across the country. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): We are now going to Mr. Three weeks ago, on April 17, the Minister of Canadian Heritage announced funding of $500 million to assist Canada's arts, sports and cultural sectors. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): Madam Chair, we will be releasing the details of that announcement, and how the money is going to be spent, in the coming days. kevin waugh: We all know that many media organizations, large and small, in Canada are struggling right now. Allegations have arisen that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, is currently engaging in predatory behaviour and taking advantage of the current situation to harm its competitors using rate cuts. kevin waugh: Local community and ethnic media outlets and papers have strong ties to their communities that often go much deeper than the major media outlets. Is the government currently using any local or ethnic media outlets to provide crucial coronavirus information through advertising? hon. We need to get the information to Canadians on COVID-19, which is why we have started an ad-buy campaign of $30 million, which is being distributed in more than 900 local, regional and national newspapers across the country and 500 radio and TV stations in 12 different languages, including Farsi, Mandarin, Spanish, Italian and many more. It has received two ads from an ad agency in connection with the $30 million the government is doling out to help media outlets. Is this the kind of money you're attempting to dole out to help media: two ads in eight weeks? hon. steven guilbeault: Madam Chair, we have been doing a number of things for our media in Canada over the last few months and will continue to do so. On top of that $30 million ad-buy campaign, we have been investing $50 million in local journalism. Just this year, it means that 200 journalists will be hired in areas across the country where journalism is more poorly defined. kevin waugh: Madam Chair, last week, as the minister would know, 15 community newspapers, including eight in Manitoba and seven in the province of Ontario, closed their doors for good. Is the government currently planning any further measures aimed at assisting community or ethnic media organizations? We understand that many more will close their doors within the next 30 to 60 days. steven guilbeault: We are planning a number of other measures, some of which will be included in the $500 million. Of the $595 million that the media will receive, we have a tax credit that has now entered into force, and the cheques should be in the mail by the end of the summer. So there are a number of things we've done and a number of things we will be doing in the coming months as well. kevin waugh: Well, finally, you have the five members associated with that committee to dole out the $595 million. colleague that in order for us to provide tax breaks for the 2019 period, media outlets had to file their tax returns so we could go ahead. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): Thank you, MadamChair. This being the first time I've had the floor during a virtual sitting of Parliament, I'd like to take this opportunity to greet my fellow members, all 259participants. I'd like to talk about the Prime Minister's appearance on the show Tout le monde en parle. This is what he had to say about his economic recovery plan: We are going to remain focused on the economy as a wholeinnovationresearch and science, the green economy and a fairer economyThere are things we are all reflecting on right now that reflection is going to continue. Can the government assure Canadians that it is being proactive and working on a plan to get the economy moving again? It must act now. Our government is wholly committed to restarting the economy, and we are working closely with the provinces to do just that. Last week, our government, together with the provincial and territorial premiers, released the principles that will guide efforts to restore economic activity across the country. jol godin: MadamChair, before we go any further, since it took a while for the minister, or the government, to answer the question, can I have that time back to ask questions? the acting chair (mrs. The Prime Minister's answer during his appearance on Tout le monde en parle didn't inspire much confidence and doesn't line up with the Deputy Prime Minister's comments. How can the government be proud of announcing $252million in assistance for the agri-food sector, when that is less than 1% of all the program funding the government has committed to help Canadians get through the COVID-19 crisis? Clearly, the government doesn't see the food supply chain as a priority and has no regard for farmers and pork and beef producers. Does the government realize that eating is vital to Canadians? When is the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food going to adjust the program and show respect for Canadian farmers? hon. This week, we focused on beef and pork producers and processors, as well as sectors with product surpluses that can be redirected to food banks. I can assure my fellow member that this is an additional step and that more supports are on the way in the weeks ahead. PortneufJacques-Cartier is home to a company that is already licensed by Health Canada and that, for 20years, has been manufacturing medical equipment including masks, face shields and thermometers. In mid-March, Health Canada reached out to the company to find out how much equipment it could manufacture to help fight COVID-19. The company confirmed that it could immediately start producing 200,000masks a week, ramping up to a million masks over the next few weeks. Can the health minister tell us why, 45days later, this company licensed by Health Canada hasn't received an order? hon. Industry and suppliers have enthusiastically answered our call to equip Canada with products and goods during the crisis. Seniors living alone are most at risk of economic insecurity, particularly single senior women, as gender inequality in the job market has translated all too often into inadequate retirement income. Madam Chair, can the minister commit to implementing a poverty reduction plan that addresses the unique challenges faced by older women? hon. deb schulte: Madam Chair, I want to assure the member that we are quite aware that this pandemic has typically affected single seniors, and many of those, given that they live longer, are single senior women. I want to assure her that we are working on this issue, and we have provided some supports already through measures such as the GST supplementary payment. jenica atwin: Madam Chair, older women represent a high proportion of residents in long-term care facilities. Having spent their lives caring for parents, children and often their partners, they find themselves needing care in nursing homes. Multiple outbreaks of COVID-19 in long-term care homes in Canada have highlighted systemic gaps that senior and elderly women may face in such facilities, as well as the working conditions of the female-dominated ranks of nurses and personal support workers. Madam Chair, can the minister commit to implementing a federal strategy for long-term care homes that recognizes quality of life for residents and working conditions for the employees, ideally one that goes hand in hand with a poverty reduction plan and enhanced home and community care investments across the country? hon. We are obviously deeply saddened by the outbreaks that have been going on in long-term care facilities and those who have lost their lives. We do recognize that the administration of long-term care and palliative care is the responsibility of provinces and territories; however, we have been taking a team Canada approach, and as you already know, we've been doing tremendous work with them to try to ensure that those who live in those facilities can be well cared for and safe. jenica atwin: Madam Chair, from May 4 to May 10, we are observing Mental Health Week. We know that our essential workers right now are experiencing unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety, on top of putting their own physical safety and health on the line. Most of these workers work in precarious jobs with no access to paid sick leave or vacation, and without any benefits to access mental health services. Apart from the very welcome investments in online resources, can the minister explain how the government will support these workers now and once the crisis is behind us? hon. I'm so glad that she's raising the issue of mental health and in particular how poor mental health is oftentimes connected to our socio-economic status. We do have new resources that are available to all Canadians free of charge through the Wellness Together portal, but there is more to do. I think the announcement of top-up wages, for example, which the Prime Minister spoke about today, is another example of how we're taking the health and wellness of all low-income Canadians very seriously. We know that mental health is not divorced from socio-economic status, and I look forward to working with her more on other measures that we can take together. jenica atwin: Madam Chair, we're all very aware of the importance of temporary foreign workers and their role in ensuring our food sovereignty across this country. How are we protecting them? Madam Chair, will the government take action to strengthen legislation and ensure Canadians have access to the food they need while the workers who help bring it to our tables have safe working conditions, regardless of where they are working in this country? hon. We are very concerned, as are countries around the world, that we support and create the environment for the health and safety of our temporary foreign workers and we value their contribution to our food supply chain here in Canada. We have issued guidelines to employers and are working very closely with local public health authorities in the provinces and territories to make sure workers are protected, that physical distancing and other recommendations are adhered to and that there are severe consequences if employers don't take care of their workers. alistair macgregor (cowichanmalahatlangford, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. My first question is this: Will the Liberal government prevent federal bailout funds from going to companies that use tax havens and avoid paying their fair share here in Canada, yes or no? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): We are working to make sure that anyone who tries to circumvent the rules faces serious consequences. Anyone who abuses the program could face fines of up to 225% of the subsidy amount as well as five years in prison. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, I didn't really hear a yes to that question, so I'll repeat it. Does the government really think it's appropriate for tax-avoiding corporations to receive funding provided for by taxpayers? hon. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, the agriculture funding announced by the government earlier this week amounts to less than 10% of what the Canadian Federation of Agriculture estimates will be required to help farmers weather this crisis. I have to remind my colleague that we have put in $5 billion through FCC, $50 million for the temporary foreign workers, two times $50 million for pork and beef producers this week, and $77 million for food processing. This is only the beginning, and we should not forget that the business risk management programs are still there to offer support. alistair macgregor: Yes, Madam Chair, but we're nearly two months into this pandemic and this announcement only came this week. marie-claude bibeau: Madam Chair, we are working closely with the farmers and their representatives to identify where the gaps are, but once again, we have made improvements to the AgriStability program. They can get, depending on the province, either 50% or 75% in advance payments, and they can also, right now, access their AgriInvest program. There is more than $2 billion ready to access today, if they have the acting chair (mrs. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, federal disability recipients and seniors on fixed incomes have been hardest hit by cost of living increases from COVID-19. If we acknowledge that $2,000 per month is the minimum needed to get through this time, why are they being asked to survive on far less? When can they expect assistance, and how much will they receive? hon. deb schulte: Madam Chair, I want to make sure people realize that we have provided some assistance through the GST supplementary benefit. We are also providing support to those who are still working, and we have done that by allowing them to access the CERB. alistair macgregor: Madam Chair, as I think we've heard through today's question period, there are countless example of this government designing programs to exclude many small businesses that desperately need help. Whether it's the payroll requirements or other eligibility, we still, to this day, almost two months into the pandemic, have too many small businesses falling through the cracks. Madam Chair, why has the government taken this approach and when can we finally expect fixes to the whole system? hon. mary ng: Madam Chair, right from the get-go, we have been committed to making sure that Canadians are helped through this crisis, and that small businesses get the support that they need, so that we are saving businesses and jobs in this country. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I hear the questions my fellow members are asking, and to be frank, I don't find the answers satisfactory. It is well and good to talk about existing programs, but they aren't working, so enough with that refrain. This morning, both farmers and processors came together for a press conference at the Union des producteurs agricoles's head office in Longueuil. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food therefore tell us when she will announce significant supports for the industry? hon. marie-claude bibeau: We have already announced significant amounts of support, and more is on the way. It's not that the programs aren't working; it's that they aren't generous enough in farmers' eyes. That's why I'm working with my provincial counterparts to make improvements to programming, including AgriStability. After using the online AgriStability benefit estimator, a pork producer found out that he would get $11 per head, as they say in the industry. Pork producers are calling for $20 per head, so it's a good start, even though it's not enough and it isn't what they are asking for. We want to keep working together, but farmers have to access the money available to them through AgriStability. Even before the crisis, we were hearing from people in the industry that the programs were neither suitable nor sufficient. A few days ago, the government announced $50million in funding for pork producers, even though they are asking for $20per hog for 27million hogs. When is the government going to announce a whole lot more in funding support? What's been announced so far is only 10% of what farmers are asking for. However, I would point out to the member that, when it comes to AgriRecovery, we made an exception to the rule. That's two funding envelopes of $50million each to help cover the additional costs from the decrease in plant processing capacity. As the Prime Minister said, we are going to do more, and we are moving forward step by step. yves perron: What we concluded in committee this week is that the $125million is not new money. The government can't say that programs already exist and, at the same time, claim that they are new programs. Everyone knows that the Canada-U.S.-Mexico Agreement came into force a month earlier than planned, despite the promises that had been made. An easy way to make money available without committing new spending is to provide compensation and announce programs for supply-managed sectors that got nothing. It seems to me that a time of crisis is a time for the government to practise some judo and announce measures. I am reaching out to the government, as I always do, but it has to come forward with announcements. marie-claude bibeau: Our commitment to farmers in supply-managed sectorsmeaning, egg, poultry and dairy farmersis as strong as it always was. Support for poultry and egg farmers is in the form of investment programs, which aligns well with the recovery. At this time, we are focusing on emergency programs to help farmers hardest hit by the COVID-19 pandemic. As you know, legislative changes are needed to grant the Canadian Dairy Commission's request and increase its borrowing limit by $200million so it can buy more butter and cheese. Chair, we're all inundated, as we've heard during this entire question period, with Canadians' concerns about the economic restrictions and the social restrictions that they're under. Over the last couple of months, the WHO has given one very consistent message in terms of coming out of those economic and social restrictions. Tedros said in his briefing, We have a simple message for all countries: test, test, test. On March 25, 44 days ago, he said, Aggressive measures to find, isolate, test, treat and trace are not only the best and fastest way out of extreme social and economic restrictionstheyre also the best way to prevent them. Does the minister agree with the WHO that relentless testing and tracing are critical to a successful economic and social relaunch strategy in Canada? hon. Absolutely, we agree that testing and contact tracing will form an important part of our response to living with COVID. We've been investing heavily in ensuring that we have the lab capacity, the collaboration across provinces and territories, and the variety of testing options to help us increase our capacity to test. We are aiming right now for a high volume of tests, but I will also say that in Canada we have one of the highest testing rates in the world. Although we're doing well, I can assure him that I am with him and I believe we need to do more. Chair, as I mentioned to his colleagues yesterday, we have currently the capacity to do approximately 60,000 tests per day across the country. Chair, it's hard for me to get that exact number, but I will get back to him with the exact number. She said, As a first tranche, roughly close to 60,000 is where the provinces can potentially expand to as a target already. Does the minister happen to know, ballpark, what the average number of daily tests in Canada has been since that statement? hon. patty hajdu: Your estimate was slightly higher than what my estimate was going to be, so that's a great piece of news. Listen, I will just say that I think if the premise here is that we could be doing more testing. I would agree, but I will also say that the provinces and territories are working incredibly hard on testing strategies that meet their own specific needs. Tam works with all the chief public health officers across the country to ensure that their testing strategy is going to be applicable and appropriate for their particular jurisdictions. mike lake: Following up on that, is there a jurisdiction in Canada where relentless testing is not the appropriate strategy as provinces consider relaunching? hon. For example, in British Columbia, where there are relatively fewer cases in general and less disease activity, they may have a different testing strategy than a province like Ontario, which is currently struggling with more outbreaks. mike lake: Given your comment that our current testing capability is 60,000, and acknowledging that only at one point in the entire history of our COVID response, over several months, has our weekly average been over 30,000it was about 31,000 for one day on a rolling basisMinister, are you satisfied with our current testing amounts right now, given that we're testing 50% of what the public health officer advises would be best? hon. patty hajdu: I'm so amazed by the work the provinces and territories have done in a very short time to increase their capacity. We are supporting them with the tools that they need to get more testing done, but also to have other components in place that will allow them to do the rapid tracing of positive cases. I think it's very important to remember that testing strategies will be different across the provinces, based on the outbreak disease epidemiology. Having said that, I know that we can all do better, and I'm certain that my counterparts feel the same<doc-sep>gareth rogers: Good morning, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Unfortunately, the Chair is unable to attend today, so in accordance with Standing Order 17.22 I call for nominations for a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting. gareth rogers: As there's only one nomination, I declare that John Griffiths has been appointed as temporary Chair. Thank you all very much, and item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We will move on then to item 2, and our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education, and our first evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales here today, and Dr David Blaney as chief executive, and Bethan Owen, director of institutional engagement. I wondered if we could start off with you telling us what evidence you can see that the Brexit process has had any impact on Welsh higher education so far. dr david blaney: Can I preface the response by just reminding you that we are, by contract and by role, apolitical, and a lot of the judgments about the impact of Brexit essentially reflect where people sit politically in terms of whether they think it's a good thing or a bad thing? We're not going to go there, obviously, today, so we'll stick to the facts as we can see them, and hopefully we'll be able to help you, but there are areas where we are unable to help. But even in terms of your assessment of whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing, a good impact or a bad impact, some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it, so we will be as careful as we can be on that. In terms of the impact of Brexit on higher education, clearly, the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales. So, we fund provision; we don't fund providers, technically, although obviously there's not much provision without providers. So, we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers, but fundamentally the issue is: what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales, and what impact might Brexit have on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales? So, we know that universities make annually about £5 billion of impact; 50,000 jobs. Of course, in Wales, all of that economic impact is really very significant, and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment. We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU, so EU students, structural funds, and EU research funding, and so on, from the EU. We can identify some of that, but, actually, what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about. We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I'll ask Bethan to share some details on that in a moment. We're also beginning to pick up, only anecdotally, some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector, and the Welsh sector as part of that, in playing in some of the EU collaborative research activities. And that, I think, just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period. We don't have data on that—that's anecdotal—but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult. In terms of the financial impact of that, clearly, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of the money—we're almost immediately straight into politics if you're not careful—but some of the money will be available back to the UK, and the extent to which Wales benefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Government. It's not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in that relationship, but that will become a matter of politics. There's a broader dimension, which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that. I think it's very hard for us to be definitive about how that's going to play out. But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how that plays for institutions remains to be seen. We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it. bethan owen: This is based on the UCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June, 30 June. The European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent, which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for English institutions, and non-EU—so international students, not from Europe—have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions, again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England. Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment? bethan owen: The funding position would be the main pressure. The recommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented, and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effect from this September. However, the recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. That funding, when it returns to institutions, is intended to re-establish funding for higher cost provision, both full time and part time; reinstate funding for innovation; and maintain, at the very least, the research funding in real terms. Universities, in the meantime, are trying to minimise the cost reductions that they're making in order to maintain the infrastructure, so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it. For the research and teaching grant, though, we are still funding at a lower level—£12.5 million less—then the starting point for the Diamond report, the 2015-16 starting report. But we expect to be able to start introducing funding from 2019-20 to make a start on implementing Diamond. And it's probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit, therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition to those that the Diamond report was addressing. There is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled and English-domiciled applications to Wales. And the other pressures include pay and pension costs, not least the issues around the universities superannuation scheme pension fund, where there's potentially a significant increase in cost. Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure and borrowing, which bring their own pressures. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding—the Augar review. john griffiths am: In terms of European Union students and enrolment, is Wales forecast to do less well than England and, if so, why might that be? bethan owen: They are not forecasting it. It's very difficult until the enrolments are made, and it's also very hard to see—the data that we see is the UCAS data. So, now, they have to find the full fee, whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students. So, I'm speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students' appetite to come. llyr gruffydd am: Well, that's straight into what I was going to ask, really, about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 per cent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales, where we see a 2 per cent increase in England. Is that it, or are there other things that you've taken into account? What's your assessment of the reasons behind this? dr david blaney: It's very difficult to be definitive about the reasons, but I think there are probably two. The one that Bethan has already indicated, which is the change in student support arrangements for EU students, will have an effect of perturbation. That's probably relatively temporary—let's hope it is—as that settles down because, actually, the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming into England. Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower, but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. The other dimension is that when you're in a highly competitive recruitment market, you have to do what you can to look attractive. Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities, and particularly buildings and kit, and the relative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that. Certainly, anecdotally I know, from my own family, that a lot of the choices have been made in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on. There's something rational about that, isn't there? If you've got a system that is relatively better invested, then you're likely to have a better student experience because the resources are likely to be better. We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the £9,000 fee maximum limit came in, and some institutions, mostly in England—there was one in Wales—chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low, relative to that £9,000, and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind. So, the price sensitivities work quite differently. So, again, if you've got a relatively better invested part of the system, then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive. llyr gruffydd am: That latter factor would affect the whole of the cohort, not just the international recruitment, of course. The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that's re-balancing where the policy of investment goes. mark reckless am: If I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the applications from non-EU students were also down by 8 per cent or 9 per cent. So, forgive me a certain scepticism about the explanation of the fall in the EU students being that they did get the fee grant and now they do not. If that's the explanation, why are we seeing the same fall in non-EU applications? dr david blaney: Well, I think the Welsh domiciled are also now having to face the prospect of finding a loan for the whole of the fee. There's also a demographic dimension here with the downturn in the 18-year-old school-leaver profile, and that actually is happening in Wales at a slightly later point than in England. mark reckless am: But this is non-EU students, and I think you said, Bethan, an 8 per cent or 9 per cent fall in them as well. mark reckless am: All English or all Welsh? bethan owen: Well, I contrasted the Welsh position with the English position where they were seeing growth. If you look, then—and we don't have the detailed information, but, again, what UCAS publish is some analysis by tariff. They analyse by type of institution—in other words, the grades that you need to get into institutions—and there is a trend for growth being in the higher tariff institutions. So, there's a mix effect in there as well, and I think there's undoubtedly an element of perception of how welcome overseas and international students are, and that's something that we know the sector are working on with Government. mark reckless am: Why would that affect Wales more than England? Do you think there's been perhaps too great a negativity about Brexit in the sector? bethan owen: I think it's the mix of institutions that we have. When we look at the mix of institutions that we have, we will probably see a differential impact between Cardiff University and others. john griffiths am: Okay, Mark? Sorry, David, did you want to add anything? dr david blaney: I was just going to say that we would expect to see quite differential performance in the English sector, so the overall numbers are being brought up by substantial increased performance with some of that sector, and it's a question of how many of that type of institution you have in Wales. mark reckless am: So, performance is increasing amongst the English universities, but not amongst the Welsh, you think. dr david blaney: I think performance is increasing, but increasing substantially with some of the English sector, not all of it. So, you get an average for the sector that is increased performance, but actually the stronger players within that sector, with the stronger international profiles, are bringing that up, and we have fewer in Wales that have that sort of presence. darren millar am: Would it be fair to say, then, that the universities over the border in England are better at selling themselves internationally than our Welsh institutions? Or is it just this fact that we've got fewer very high tariff universities versus the English market? dr david blaney: I suspect, and this is speculation—I suspect that it's a bit of both. I would then come back to the point I was making about the Anglocentric nature of the UK media. darren millar am: But, forgive me, don't international students just look at the UK as a whole? How are we comparing to Scotland, for example, or Northern Ireland, in terms of their universities? Do you have a comparative figure for Scottish universities? bethan owen: I haven't got that one with me for now, but there will be one in the data. bethan owen: Again, it's a combination of being part of the UK but differentiating, and the ability to differentiate the strengths of Wales, so attracting those students to Wales specifically, on top of the UK draw. dr david blaney: So, in terms of the efforts that have been made, there's a programme now that is being run by the sector in Wales—it's 'Study in Wales'. But that is a determined collective effort to present Wales as a good place to study, with particular messages about what distinguishes studying in Wales from studying more broadly in the UK. In a sense, that is responding to the need to increase the presence of Wales in an international market. It will take a while to actually have an impact, but I think that's exactly the sort of work the sector need to be doing more of. mark reckless am: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales? dr david blaney: One of them in particular is relative safety. We know that one of the considerations, particularly for parents of overseas students, is are they going to go to a safe environment, and we know that the perception of international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be. That's partly a function of the size of our larger cities—quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England. So, we've got a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, but it's available in a way that is safer and more supportive, I think is the messaging that's coming through. darren millar am: I just wonder to what extent you have been able to plan in your financial forecasts for the next few years ahead for the potential impacts of Brexit. What have you built in, if anything? bethan owen: In terms of our funding, we receive our funding annually, but the sector provides us with financial forecasts, and we use those for monitoring sustainability. We are due to receive a full forecast at the end of this month, and we obviously have updated information from institutions. darren millar am: And they're three-year forecasts that come through to you, aren't they? bethan owen: They are four plus the current year. So, we've got numbers to 2019-20 at the moment, and expect to go to 2020-21. darren millar am: And what are the universities expecting? What do they anticipate? bethan owen: Well, for 2017-18, which is the year we're about to end now, they were expecting £38 million income from European students, and approximately £91 million from the various European programme funding sources, and that's about 8 per cent of the total income—£1.5 billion—of the sector. The forecasts are assuming that that continues, albeit that institutions have various scenarios that they have for all sorts of scenarios that we can all speculate on, and, as I mentioned earlier, the balancing act of maintaining infrastructure and resources and staff in the short term is where we are at the moment, or where the sector is at the moment. And there are also signs that the banks and lending institutions are becoming a bit more risk-averse in providing borrowing to institutions, and of more differentiation between individual institutions being made than has possibly been the case in the past. The sector made an operating deficit, again looking at all Welsh institutions collectively last year, 2016-17, of £17 million. And we're expecting a similar collective level of deficit for this financial year, if not slightly higher. Now, these are managed deficits and we are not currently seeing critical short-term cash availability issues in the sector. However, the increase in funding from Diamond is a key part of enabling the sector to return to longer-term financial sustainability. You can manage in the short-term, but there comes a point when the big cost reductions and infrastructure reductions have to be made. And, again, having mentioned the pressures on pay, pensions and other challenges, it is difficult to gauge whether, if those factors come into play as well, some of these cost reductions may have to be made before funding comes in to replace—either Diamond funding or the European replacement funding. darren millar am: So, would it be fair to say that, in terms of the funding arrangements, and, in terms of the student numbers, one reason why we've got this recruitment problem is this lack of investment in the capital infrastructure that we've seen in recent years because of the financing arrangements from the Welsh Government, and the fee regime that we had previously, and the student finance regime that we had previously, not getting more cash into our Welsh universities perhaps, and that, over the next few years, there's going to have to be much more significant investment in capital if we're to raise the game and be more competitive, yes? bethan owen: Yes, that would be fair to say. darren millar am: So, to what extent are they planning for more capital investment in those financial strategies that they've been preparing and presenting to you? bethan owen: They are all planning for capital investment. This year, 2018-19, is the first time that we've had capital funding in our remit letter—so, we've got £10 million of capital funding, which is very welcome, with a prospect of a further £20 million. That will make a difference, particularly to those institutions who are not finding it as easy to borrow from financial institutions. However, there are internal governance processes that are putting tight restrictions and expectations of what that money will be invested in. But they all have plans to do it and they need the confidence that their forecasts and long-term future funding prospects are secure enough that they can get the confidence of borrowers then, and service the costs of those borrowers. What clarity is there from the Welsh Government at the moment in terms of how much they anticipate the Diamond dividend will be, and what proportion of that is going to be released to HEIs in the future? bethan owen: I was very carefully not describing it as a dividend—a re-establishing of funding that we had in the past for higher cost and innovation and maintaining research funding. The timescales are difficult, because we have an annual remit letter, and we can work with Welsh Government officials, and they can only give us a sense of when they think the funding will be released. But 2018-19 is the start of the system, and because of cohort protection—so, protecting those students who came in on a different deal to the deal from 2018-19—in the early years there is an element of double cost; there's a cost of seeing out the old system and the different cost of implementing the new system. So, at the moment, we're certainly not in a position to tell the sector with any degree of certainty what funding would be beyond what we've allocated for 2018-19, with some sense of what 2019-20 numbers we're working with because we allocate our money over an academic year—so, by definition, we've already made assumptions of four months of the 2019-20 funding, albeit that's not approved yet in the budgetary process. darren millar am: But you're not being given a steer at all as to what you expect the additional resource that you might have to make available to Welsh universities might be as a result of Diamond. dr david blaney: I think it's fair to say that officials have been as helpful as they can be with us, in terms of the planning assumptions we make and indications about whether or not we are being too ambitious or not ambitious enough. So, I think they're being very helpful; as Bethan said, they're constrained by the process—they can't pre-empt a budget process. The other question I think you asked was how much of the money released by the new arrangements will come into higher education. At the moment, we are expecting all of it to come into higher education, as the product of the arrangement between the current Cabinet Secretary and the current First Minister. The extent to which any changes there cause that to come under threat is something I can't judge at the moment. But we have had in our remit letter from the Cabinet Secretary a clear indication that we can expect our resource to grow over the next few years, as the Diamond process unfolds. llyr gruffydd am: Bethan said in an earlier answer that, I think, the financial forecasting from universities forecast something pretty consistent in terms of what they're hoping to be receiving in income, for example. So, does that tally, really, or are they going to be recruiting additional students from the UK market or—? What's the plan? bethan owen: I was reflecting on the last point when we had consistent information across the sector. bethan owen: I'm expecting that the forecast that we get at the end of this month will reflect the reduced applications we've seen, and an element of that will be reflected in reduced improvements as well. So, we don't really know, then, whether—it's unlikely that they are going to expect a consistent fee income, really. dr david blaney: I think it's fair to say we would expect them to respond to what they're seeing in the UCAS process. Even if they didn't, they would all, in any case, have sensitivities for what they would do if things don't come out in the way they hope. And if they didn't have that then we would be on their case, of course, because we want them to be properly sighted. darren millar am: Can I just ask, in terms of the impact of Brexit, have you done any assessment of what you think might happen, or have any of the institutions made available to you any assessments of what they think is likely to happen to their individual institutions, going forward? You've mentioned scenarios earlier on, David, so what scenarios have you set out? dr david blaney: There's a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group, which is chaired by one of the Government directors, and we sit on that. And we have provided that group with early summaries of the risks and the potential impact, in terms of the exposure of the sector to EU-sourced funding. We have, as part of that working group, explored those issues that it would be really very helpful for either the Welsh Government to try to put in place or for the Welsh Government to persuade UK Government to do. And I think, in our submission, we identified a number of areas of what we would consider to be a helpful action, and that has been worked through that working group. We know that it has informed Welsh Government's position, in terms of what it does and also in terms of the conversations that they have with Her Majesty's Government. Beyond that, what we haven't done in that working group is share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios. We are not able to do that here either because, inevitably, they would have varying degrees of unpalatability and they would have to be managed very, very carefully. You take cost out, which is essentially the response, you actually take people's jobs out, and all of that has to be managed carefully. So, that's not really a matter for public consideration, but we do know that the institutions are looking at a range of scenarios on what they would do. Bethan mentioned earlier on that the current deficit for the sector is a managed deficit—it's not something that has taken them by surprise. They are responding to what they see as the dip between where Diamond was reporting and where the money starts flowing. Similarly, I think we're comfortable that there is a managed approach to the scenarios that they're testing within institutions. The bigger issue really, in a public policy context, is the potential damage for the sector to be able to deliver for Wales in terms of research and skills development and all the other contributions. darren millar am: So, you're confident that they're taking a robust approach to planning for various scenarios, going forward, are you, as individual HEIs? dr david blaney: Yes, and as the deal becomes more clear politically, then they will obviously have greater clarity in terms of which of these scenarios they need to work up more fully, but they are sighted on it. Can I just ask about fee and access plans, and how Brexit might impact them? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted? dr david blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there. So, we're just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 2019-20 academic year. We, as part of that process, go through similar—we look at their financial sustainability, which is based on their forecasts—data to the stuff we've just been discussing. And also, of course, the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types, from different domains, are going to be recruited. So, clearly, if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment, then that will reduce the amount of fee income that's going to come in, unless they can find other students, and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans. If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they've submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality, then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan. If it's not fundamentally different, but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later—. We also monitor after the event and, if there are differences, we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences. Conversely, if they'd had more students, and potentially more investment, we'd want to know what they'd spent it on, and if they've done different things, we'd want to understand that as well. The only other thing that's perhaps worth saying is that, in the 2019-20 fee and access plans—they're not published yet, so I can't give you the full detail—five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact, and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues, so they're in there as well. darren millar am: But we've already said, haven't we, that it may be nothing to do with Brexit, this dip in EU recruitment, because there are other factors like the attractiveness of the estates and the environment that young people might be educated in? But they're making assumptions that it's linked to Brexit, are they? dr david blaney: Not really. There are things they want to do to enhance and to protect student mobility, and some of that will be funded through fee plan investment. So, the Brexit conversation between the EU and the UK Government might or might not sustain Erasmus engagement, and if it doesn't, then they need to find other ways of trying to support that sort of thing. What else do you do to assure yourselves that Welsh higher education institutions are effectively planning for Brexit? bethan owen: We've touched on contingency plans, but, in an environment of uncertainty, I think it's difficult for any of us to know what the right scenario is. I think rather than looking at worst-case scenarios, what the sector is also focusing on is the promotion and looking for additional or increased sources of funding. So, we touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales, so more focus on marketing Wales overseas, but also within the UK. The other area where the sector is working at a UK level very hard is making the arguments to UK Government for maintaining access to the successor to Horizon 2020, which is arguably a larger part of the whole funding infrastructure—students is one part, but the whole funding infrastructure for maintaining research capacity. So, working with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level for maintaining access to those sources of funding is also a part of what the institutions are doing. That group, which is the Welsh Government group, is being advised by members on it, and that's informing Welsh Government officials when they engage with UK Government as well. mark reckless am: Do universities seek your advice on what the risks and, indeed, opportunities of Brexit may be and what you think they should be doing to plan for them, or is your role more one of monitoring what they do as opposed to advising what they should do? bethan owen: They are autonomous institutions and ultimately their governing bodies are responsible for ensuring their sustainability. It's not a relationship where we would advise and direct, but it is a relationship where we would question the scenarios if we consider from our experience that we would have expected other scenarios to have been tested. mark reckless am: I understand you don't direct, of course, but my question was about advising. You're overseeing, or monitoring—or whatever you like to describe the role as—quite a number of institutions, and presumably you therefore have particular expertise within your organisation, and I just wondered whether higher education institutions are doing enough to draw on that. bethan owen: I think we can advise—we can advise based on data and information that we can see. The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario is the uncertainty and the extent to which our speculation is better informed than the governing bodies or the sector collectively is probably the issue. So, there's a relationship with the sector and there's a relationship with individual institutions, and they are different. So, some of these conversations are happening in various ways, where we're all gaining intelligence about what might be a sensible set of planning assumptions. Then, if we see an institution that is manifestly giving signs of not being sighted on some of these risks, either through their forecast or through other assurance activity, we will challenge. We have an annual cycle, with two points in the year where we reassess the overall risks of individual institutions, and that's based on a whole range of hard data but also a range of soft data. We have lots of conversations and we take all of that in the round and form an assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions but also the extent to which we think their governance and management arrangements are properly sighted and facing properly the challenges that they face. In some ways, we say it's not about the challenges they face; it's about how they face the challenges. Our alarm bells really ring when we get the sense that, actually, either an executive or a governing body hasn't really noticed. There are medium-term real challenges, both because of Brexit and because of other contextual factors, but at the moment the sector is a managed sector, which is good. It's not always like that, but we're in, I think, a good place at the moment. So, our role is definitely to challenge where we don't think they are making sensible assessments, but it's not to say that their assessment is wrong and ours is right; it's just to have a conversation about, 'Why have you done this and what has informed your thinking?' It's slightly more one step back and slightly more subtle, but it is, as you imply, us using the intelligence we gain from all of those conversations when we talk to individual institutions as well. We had evidence last week from some of the higher education institutions, including Cardiff University, and it's very interesting, in relation to Erasmus+ and the mobility funding for students that, I think, only 40 per cent of the mobility funding in Cardiff is paid for by Erasmus+. I note that you've been consulting on national measures for higher education performance and that one possibility is using international mobility as a performance indicator. I was just wondering whether you might go further and expect universities to actually make commitments to funding international mobility from their own fee incomes as part of that. bethan owen: Again, reflecting on the latest fee and access plans, seven of the universities are referring to mobility—either they have targets in them or are explaining what their plans are—so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income. However, Erasmus is such a well-established and long-term plan—if we were looking at a scenario where that infrastructure wasn't available, to implement anything similar to that would be much less efficient and much more costly. Ideally, you'd want something that all Welsh institutions could take part in, and that takes some investment and some co-ordinating. I think it's easy to underestimate the accumulation of time that has gone into establishing Erasmus. llyr gruffydd am: And the point was made clearly last week that the brand is internationally recognised. When you enter into Erasmus+, you know exactly what you're going to get, and all of that. But there have been criticisms as well about degrees of flexibility and this, that and the other, so I'm just wondering whether—and there is presumably going to be some change on that front although I'm hoping we can buy into it, as others have done who aren't in the EU—that emphasis on encouraging institutions to look more proactively at funding their own mobility efforts would be positive. dr david blaney: I think the— llyr gruffydd am: Sorry—especially if it means that they do more of it. I think the Welsh sector is definitely committed to trying to find ways of promoting and resourcing that sort of mobility. There are signs that some of the restrictive elements of the Erasmus programme are going to change anyway, because that's under development and that's positive. There have been positive noises as part of the Brexit negotiations about wanting to carry on being able to access the Erasmus programme. Nothing is agreed until it's all agreed apparently, so we'll have to see on that one. That would be far better, I think, as Bethan indicates, than trying to replace it with a made-in-Wales only, but you could have a made-in-Wales on top. All of these challenges also create opportunities because they stimulate thinking, and so the fact that seven of the eight universities are already now using their fee plans as a vehicle for thinking about this is positive, and I think we can take that on from there. llyr gruffydd am: Because that 40/60 split struck me as being the opposite to what I perceived the situation to be. A key part of your role is to work in partnership with students, so I'd just like to ask what work have you done with students, in terms of maybe protecting their interests as the Brexit scenario evolves? dr david blaney: Well, as you say, we do work with students. We were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales. So, we have close links with NUS Wales and we're very proud of that, and it's very productive. We we're, again, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. The UK-wide quality code also has elements in it where arrangements have to be specified about the protection of student interests. That is particularly, in essence, around circumstances where a provider gets into difficulties and they might wish to close a course or something more drastic and then what arrangements are in place to make sure that those students who are in train are protected. So, that is there and we've worked hard with the sector and with NUS Wales to get those measures in place. There's more development work in train at the moment, so we've asked Universities Wales to construct a protection that takes account of the approach to protecting the student interests in higher education. We're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important. The students who are HE students in FE are absolutely not second-best, and they should have the same protections. llyr gruffydd am: But is all this a general piece of work? It's not Brexit-specific, although, no doubt, it may—. The other dimension around Brexit is the immigration status of EU students, and that's, kind of, beyond our pay scale—that's a UK Government issue. llyr gruffydd am: Is that something that you have a view on? dr david blaney: It's clearly in the interest of the enrichment of the curriculum and the student experience for students in Welsh institutions to be able to have students from other EU countries in the mix. Now, of course, you have a statutory duty as well to assess the academic quality of the work in our higher education institutions, and I'm just wondering what potential impacts you think that Brexit might have on that particular aspect. dr david blaney: I think there are possibly a couple of things to say, and one, in a sense, echoes what I was just saying in the final part of my previous response, which is that part of the quality of the student experience is the richness that you get from having students in your cohort who have different backgrounds and different perspectives. So, if there is a continuing reduction in the number of EU students coming into Welsh institutions, then that richness deteriorates. That doesn't mean to say that the base or the threshold standard of what's required for a degree will come under pressure, it's just about the richness on top of that, which will be, in a sense, a quality-enhancement issue. That would be something that we would wish to try to protect against, but in the end you can't force EU students to come—you have to try and look attractive, and we've touched on that. The baseline requirement assessment of quality will not be affected by Brexit, except in so far as the machinery we use to discharge our statutory responsibility, which is through the Quality Assurance Agency, which themselves are accredited with European Association for Quality Assurance in Higher Education, the European machinery for higher education quality. And there's a set of standards around that, and we would obviously wish not to be in a position where our ability to use and adhere to those standards is adversely impacted upon. Those standards will still exist, and it will be possible for the British system to adhere to them, even if they're not actually able to play in the same way. Then the only other thing I would say is that one of the factors that can cause the quality of the learning and teaching experience to be likely to become inadequate is when institutions come under financial pressure, just because their capacity to maintain the same sort of student experience can get under pressure. So, clearly, we will be looking for and making sure that institutions manage the financial pressures, if there are any—and there are some at the moment, as we've described—and manage those carefully. And in all of that, we will expect institutions to do their duty to make sure that the commitments they've already made to students are carried through. So, where students have already started on the course, they need to be able to finish that course—you can't just pull the plug out. A lot of what you've told us in the last three quarters of an hour or so will have costs attached, depending on the impacts. Certainly, we're in choppy waters as a sector anyway, and the risk is that things will be even more choppy, if you'll excuse that level of political interpretation, over the years to come. I'm just wondering what advice you might have given the Welsh Government in terms of what level of transition funding, or Brexit transition funding, might be required by the sector, and if you have, what the Welsh Government might have told you. bethan owen: I mentioned earlier that, obviously, we've provided information in terms of the assumptions that the sector are making on income. I think the extent to which that needs to be replaced or supported with transition funding depends absolutely on what the final arrangements for Brexit are, but it's an appropriate point to refer to the report that Professor Graeme Reid has produced, commissioned by Welsh Government. But, again, the Reid recommendations in that report build on the Diamond recommendations, and as soon as Diamond is in place—and Reid is providing recommendations in addition, to establish funding on the basis that the funding needs to be available in Wales to maintain and develop and strengthen the research and innovation infrastructure that we have. llyr gruffydd am: Are you not worried, though, that the clock is ticking and that we really don't know what the situation is at this point? dr david blaney: Do you mean the Brexit situation? llyr gruffydd am: The Brexit clock, yes. dr david blaney: Uncertainty is unhelpful, because as I've said several times, the sector is a managed sector at the moment. We're not seeing maverick stuff, but actually you can only manage, really, what you can see and what you can reasonably predict. So, the longer the uncertainty persists, the more difficult that is for institutional management and, indeed, for the rest of the machinery to support them. darren millar am: Chair, can I just ask a question? john griffiths am: Yes, Darren. darren millar am: In terms of uncertainty, though, we've still got this uncertainty over whether the extra cash that the Government's going to have to spend as a result of Diamond being implemented is coming to the HE sector. They've given a political commitment, but you've got absolutely no other assurance of the sums of money that are coming in. We've got the reform of tertiary education arrangements in Wales, which are also under way, so it's a bit of a perfect storm for you, isn't it, really, with all of these three things happening at the same time? dr david blaney: We're certainly kept busy. darren millar am: But two of those things are in the gift of the Welsh Government to sort out for you, aren't they? dr david blaney: Well, the policy on the reform of the post-compulsory sector absolutely is a Welsh Government policy. The extent to which they can pre-empt a budgetary process and give us clear sight of the amount of money in future years is—. My understanding is that that's difficult for them to do, and I would repeat what I said earlier: officials have been as helpful as I think they can be in respect of that. , you're right, we've only got a political commitment between two people currently in post. darren millar am: that statement about the savings accrued from Diamond being reinvested wholly into the HE sector has not been repeated, frankly, has it, since the coalition deal was struck? dr david blaney: No, but it hasn't been rescinded either, so—. darren millar am: No, but there have been opportunities—repeated opportunities—in the Chamber, where the Cabinet Secretary's been asked to repeat that commitment, and the First Minister's been asked to repeat that commitment and has not given that commitment. That must concern you, and must concern your university sector even more than, perhaps, some of the elements of Brexit that we're discussing. dr david blaney: Bethan has outlined earlier on in this session the fact that institutions are currently running deficit budgets in order not to lose the infrastructure on the assumption that the Diamond money will come in. If anything were to cause significant perturbation, either to the timeline of that or to it coming in at all, then there would be much more of what Medwin Hughes calls 'houskeeping' that would be required, and that would be significant. So, at the moment—I don't like the expression 'valley of death', but there is a valley to cross, and I think the sector is reasonably confident about how wide and how deep that valley is. So, there are several valleys that they're crossing—the metaphor fails, doesn't it, really, but I think you get the drift? So, there are a number of challenges and they can see their way out of some of those challenges, but if any one of these starts to get significantly disrupted, then that would be a real issue for them. Could I go on to ask about other barriers to Welsh universities gaining more funding from UK research councils? What would you say those barriers are? dr david blaney: Well, I think there are a couple of things, really, to say. The first one—and we'll sound like a stuck record if we're not careful—is that there's an issue about investment and the Reid report makes this very clear. So, he has reaffirmed research that had been done previously that identifies that, actually, the quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them, and that, in the end, is a product of investment decisions. They have particularly looked at the deficit in science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas, and I always say that research is not just STEM. , STEM is important, and I'm not denying the deficit in that area, but we have to also remember that the research agenda for Wales is not just STEM—it's arts, humanities, it's social sciences. The Welsh impact in its research is better than anywhere else in the UK, so that's good. So, they do very well, and we just really need to invest a little bit further—so continue to do very well, but put it on a broader front. If you want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, then the investment has two dimensions to it. One is just having enough researchers to be able to play into those increasingly larger projects rather than small-scale projects. If you haven't got the critical mass, it's very hard to make the case that you can play. And the second thing is that UK-wide research pots nearly always fund at about 80 per cent of the total cost of the research, and the other 20 per cent is meant to be found from the core research funding for the university, and if you're in a situation where your core research funding is not competitive, then you're not going to be competitive at getting that money. I think it's fair to say that the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils, making sure they're in the various committees and so on. We are intending to do a bit of work to see if we can systematise that a bit better—that engagement—because there's no doubt about it: it's not to say that this system is in any way inappropriate, but the more you're in the conversations, the more likely you are to be better placed to respond to the research challenges that come up. One final question: in terms of the researcher collaborations and networks that exist, do you see potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of those, and are there any particular lessons to learn from Sêr Cymru II? dr david blaney: I think that there are two things to say here as well. First of all, the Brexit deal might or might not impact adversely on the capacity of Welsh and, indeed, UK research infrastructure to play into broader collaborative activity across Europe, and, in a sense, that's a function of the deal whatever the deal looks like, and we'll have to wait and see. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. It's not just the money, it's being in the club and it's the signalling that we're in the game. And then the other part of my response to this would be that, actually, Wales will need to continue to be good at the research it does, so maintaining the quality, maintaining the impact, and hopefully growing the critical mass. The Sêr Cymru initiative has been quite important in doing that, because it's been very focused, capturing key research players, and the attractiveness that that has then to other researchers around them, and to industry collaboration, and they have been areas of real strength that we've invested in. And I think they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market. darren millar am: Just very briefly, one of the pieces of feedback that the committee members received at a stakeholder engagement event, which took place prior to this inquiry starting, to receive oral evidence, was about the research funding that is available from the charitable sector, and how poorly Wales does in attracting some of that research. I think we had some figures from the British Heart Foundation, which said they have £100 million a year available for research grants, or something like that, and we're getting 1 per cent of that coming into Wales, which is obviously pretty low down. I appreciate that research into the type of activity that they want to put their money into, Wales may not be particularly good at, and there may be other opportunities with other charities and partnerships. What work are you doing in order to build the capacity that Wales has to attract more of that charitable sector research funding into Wales? bethan owen: One of the issues is the capacity to engage with that funding, because of the overhead issue that David mentioned. Again, that could be built in to our funding, if we had the capacity to increase our quality-related research funding. darren millar am: But that pressure's the same in other parts of the UK, is it not? So the overhead funding is still an issue in England, and in other places. bethan owen: There is an increased contribution, and I think it's an element that was increased this year to acknowledge that. I'm fairly certain that some of our institutions will be very strong with the cancer charities, possibly not the heart foundation. darren millar am: So, this gearing issue that you mentioned earlier on, for every £1 that somebody else puts on the table, they can draw in another £4 on top, because that £1 will cover the overheads, whereas the rest of the research cash—. You know, we sometimes get into a conversation about the unhypothecated nature of our research funding, but actually that creates a flexibility and the infrastructure investment that allows institutions to be able to respond to these other opportunities. Without that, they can't do it, because if you're not careful, you've got institutions engaging in UK-wide or charity-based research activities where they're actually having to pay for it themselves—they're running at a loss. darren millar am: So that's the main problem; it's not that Welsh universities aren't doing their best to get this cash in. Or is it a bit of both? dr david blaney: I think, in the main, universities and researchers will get their cash from wherever they can, so I don't think it's a lack of appetite. Well, thank you, both, for coming in to give evidence to the committee this morning. You will be sent a draft of the transcript, to check for accuracy. Okay then, the next item is item 3, papers to note, the first of which is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the school organisation code. The second is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Chair of the Finance Committee regarding scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for the forthcoming financial year, which we will be discussing under item 6 on the agenda. Paper to note 4 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on parental attitudes towards managing young children's behaviour. And the final paper to note, paper to note 5, is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the children and family delivery grant, which we will discuss later on in private session, if Members are content. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, and also for items 1 and 2 of the 20 September meeting<doc-sep>We've received apologies for absence from Julie Morgan, and I'm very pleased to welcome David Rees, who is substituting for her today. Item 2 this morning, then, is a session with the Minister for Children and Social Care on the Welsh Government's childcare offer. So, I'm very pleased to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, Minister for Children and Social Care, also Jo-Anne Daniels, director for communities and tackling poverty, and Owain Lloyd, deputy director for childcare, play and early years. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions come from Hefin David. How has it gone in the early implementer local authority areas, and is it something of a mixed bag? huw irranca-davies am: It's gone well, but I'm glad we've done it through this process of early implementer, actually piloting it, because we're learning lessons as we go along. It's been encouraging, to the extent that we're at the point where we're expanding—we've made announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons. But, in terms of what we're learning, one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we're taking, because it's being done on the seven early implementers. So, we're asking parents to come in, provide their wage slips, provide the birth certificates, and so on. You're dealing sometimes with parents and families with complex issues and complex backgrounds, so it's difficult. In one case, it's a whole authority, but it's only one—that's in Blaenau Gwent. So, we're having parents, generally, who are outside the areas entirely saying, 'Why haven't we got this yet? Can we please get into it?', which is encouraging. But the other thing we're having is people who are within pilot authorities, where it doesn't extend to the whole authority, saying, 'Well, hold on now, we think we qualify for something under universal care, we think we qualify for something on tax credits. Why don't we qualify for this?' 'Well, you're not in the pilot area.' So, we're learning about these things, but the biggest one, I have to say, is the administrative burden, and I think that's interesting in how we take this forward for a wider roll-out. hefin david am: What is the administrative burden? What specifically is that? huw irranca-davies am: It is that sheer burden on each local authority, and each pilot area, to administer a scheme where we are asking parents to prove eligibility, to bring in documents to prove their eligibility, to make adjustments as it goes forward based on what their changing work patterns are, what their salary slips say. So, yesterday, when we made the statement following the announcement of the introduction of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, we made clear that our preferred option, as put within that framework Bill, is actually to build on, and to learn from the lessons as well, the model of the HM Revenue and Customs type of model, where you actually have—and this, by the way, is supported by local authority providers out there—one system that is a centralised system, where there is clarity, that is handled, that has elements of information sharing between Government departments, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on, so that the work is done for the parents, and the work is done for the local authorities; much cleaner, much simpler. hefin david am: How confident are you that you can achieve that by 2020? huw irranca-davies am: We are very confident. But, as I say, I'm more confident in the fact that we're actually piloting it, and phasing this in, because I think we've learned from some of the experiences elsewhere, including just over the border in England, where they have a different version of a childcare offer, but they've gone for it in a big-bang approach. And it has led to technical issues, it's led to volume issues, where their anticipation of how many people would buy into it was overwhelmed by the numbers who actually then came forward for it, and the complexity, I have to say, of individual family situations, whereas what we are doing, Hefin, is taking this forward very, very carefully. Each roll-out, each expansion that we're doing of the pilot is not—and I know this has caused some people to come back and say, 'Why can't we all have it now?' It's because we're only rolling out to areas where we now need to learn a lesson about whether it's rurality or, as it will be within densely urban areas, where the cost might be slightly higher, and that's allowing us to have the confidence that we'll have it. We've expanded the whole offer across Gwynedd—the whole of Gwynedd, Anglesey and Caerphilly. Flintshire now have a cross-authority offer. Rhondda Cynon Taf is anticipating doing this by September. Swansea is planning to do it, they tell us, in due course—in short order—as well. So, we have the confidence now that, with that learning going on from different pilot areas, we'll have the full roll-out by 2020. hefin david am: Is it true to say that, in the early adopter areas, the intensity of demand for the services is not spread evenly across? huw irranca-davies am: Absolutely. hefin david am: And why is that? Is that going to cause a problem across Wales? huw irranca-davies am: No, it won't cause a problem. If we were doing this tomorrow, it would cause a problem, but what we're learning is that there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues. We're not finding a problem here with capacity, whether it's in English language provision or whether it's in Welsh language provision, whether it's in children with complex needs, we're not finding that as an issue. But what we are finding is, for example, one of the well-known ones—and I've spoken about this before—is that, in some of the south Wales Valleys constituencies, there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families. Grandparents, aunts, uncles and so on provide free, unregistered, unlicensed childcare of a sort. So, some of the aspects are cultural, but what we're also doing alongside this, whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot roll-out, is that communication with parents and providers and local authorities as well. It's about communicating what the offer is, how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to, and, critically, I think, how we do that national roll-out would be important as well. hefin david am: So, given the point you've made about grandparents and family, wouldn't it be sensible, then, to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care? huw irranca-davies am: Unregistered grandparents? hefin david am: Well, through some kind of analysis of that. huw irranca-davies am: Well, we don't think so and there are good reasons behind this. hefin david am: Is it because you say that they wouldn't be registered as carers for their own family member? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but there's a deeper reason behind that registration as well. The childcare offer isn't only to just provide childcare; it's the wider aspects that come with this. This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer. There's an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there's that 10 hours of the early education foundation years as well. So, there's an issue here with quality, about socialisation and how children learn in an environment, as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and uncles are—simply child-minding. So, the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers, which could be, by the way—because we do have them, and we're discussing this at the moment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by the care inspectorate? We're having those discussions. hefin david am: How many of them are there? huw irranca-davies am: We don't think there is a huge number, but we're trying to bottom this out at the moment. We haven't got the exact number, but we don't think they are huge numbers, but there are, in our constituencies, registered, licensed, inspected grandparents who look after other people's children in a little group of four or five or six or seven, but also their own grandchildren. Now that, I would say to you—and I know that Darren raised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedly different in the nature of it, because it's registered and licensed, than simply informal grandparents or aunts or uncles. I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us, 'I don't want to be paid for looking after my grandchildren; I look after my grandchildren because I look after them'. hefin david am: And what about the view, given that you said that capacity wasn't an issue, of the National Day Nurseries Association, which says that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Great Britain? huw irranca-davies am: I don't agree we have the most fragile, but the childcare offer gives us an opportunity to make it more resilient and more robust. We know from the early piloting, and as we roll it out, that there is the immense diversity within the childcare sector, and we're talking about everything from those very small terraced homes that have been licensed and registered to take six or seven children, to large, complex environments that perhaps are on maintained premises within school premises, provided by a voluntary or third sector organisation. So, there's immense complexity and we know that that differs across Wales, and we also know there's immense regional variation in the scale and the type of childcare offer. What the roll-out allows us to do, backed by £60 million of capital money behind it, in terms of capital development of childcare facilities, backed by a 10-year workforce development plan for childcare—and bear in mind this is bolted in as part of our foundational economy approach as well—that means, by 2020, we get to the point where we're putting the money into the capital development but also to the workforce development, because in some areas we're finding it's not to do with lack of provision and facilities, it's to do with lack of staff. hefin david am: That's fair enough, but is it realistic to think that there's going to be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, I think it is, absolutely, because, again, what we're finding is we've got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the development of this roll-out. One is the work that we're doing on the ground with the phased roll-out, so we're literally learning live time, and I have pretty much weekly or fortnightly updates on how things are going, but also there is a termly update as well. We've also commissioned additional work from Arad to look at this first phase of the roll-out that we've done to see what that tells us as well. But the feedback that we're getting from the childcare providers themselves, on the basis that we're now identifying where either the gaps in the workforce or the physical facilities are, is that, 'Yes, we can do this', because we're putting the money in, we have the strategy for the workforce development, and it's not going to be the same in all parts of Wales. It's not as if what we're saying is, 'Here's what we're going to do all of a sudden—flick a switch and we have a universality of the same type of provision everywhere.' So, let me give you one key example. Alongside this, alongside the £60 million capital fund, alongside the workforce development, we've also identified a separate strain of money into cylch meithrin. We're specifically putting money into developing that, and, in fact, the first one of those will be, from that new tranche of money, opening up, I think, in September. They anticipate, as part of our big strategy with Welsh language development, we'll have an additional 40 of those by— jo-anne daniels: Thirty. huw irranca-davies am: It's an additional 30 by 2020, and an additional doubling of that in the 10 years after that. We can't take this for granted, Hefin. hefin david am: The last thing from me: the £4.50 single national rate—is there a danger that we might be creating a kind of EasyJet-style nursery provision where you get the basics but the wealthier parents are going to be able to pay for better care within those settings because of the add-ons? huw irranca-davies am: We really mulled over this a lot and discussed it, I have to say, not only internally but with childcare providers out there and with parents as well and with local authorities. The first thing to say is the £4.50 rate that we've set has been welcomed, and it's been welcomed because it's unlike the much more complex offer that's in England, where there's a variable rate and there are lots of determining factors on it and it's added complexity and confusion. hefin david am: Can I just ask there, it's been welcomed perhaps in Blaenau Gwent, but has it been equally welcomed in Cardiff? huw irranca-davies am: No, because we haven't rolled it out in Cardiff yet, and that is a salient point. But will it be, then? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, it will be. Some of the more expensive areas like Cardiff and Newport are knocking on our door saying, 'Please can we have this offer?', and we are keen to give it to them. But, as I say— hefin david am: But do you anticipate a capacity problem with the £4.50 in those areas, compared to, say, the Cynon valley? huw irranca-davies am: We can't anticipate it yet, Hefin, but that's exactly the reason for going into that area and then assessing how it works. We're reasonably assured by the feedback that we're having that the £4.50 might work as a universal amount. But if we learn, when we roll it out in Cardiff and Newport, that there needs to be some variation, we can look at that, because we're not doing a big-bang approach. So, that is part of why we will move to roll it out within Cardiff and Newport and other more expensive areas and learn from it, but at the moment, I have to say, the £4.50 amount has been welcomed—it's appropriate. You touched on the other aspect, though, of the wider aspects of beyond the £4.50, because the £4.50 doesn't cover everything. The £4.50 is a contribution towards the wraparound childcare element but it doesn't cover—and we agonised over this—the issues of things like transport out on trips or food or snacks and things like this. Now, we did agonise a number of things that brought us to the conclusion where we are. I have to say, this hasn't been ivory-tower stuff; it's been in discussion with the providers but also parents. One: parents are quite used to—with childcare settings and play care settings and so on—the idea that providers are quite different. Some providers charge a fee that does everything in one; others provide simply the childcare element but they tell the parents—and I'm used to this as a parent myself, although mine are older now—'Mr Irranca-Davies, when you sign on, just to be aware, if we do take your kids down to St Fagans, there's going to be a little bit of a charge for that' and so on. hefin david am: That's fair enough, but it would be the lowest-income working families who would be most unduly affected by that, because the higher income families would be able to afford those add-ons, the lower income ones won't. Isn't that a concern? huw irranca-davies am: If money was absolutely no object, then I think you'd be looking at quite a different offer, but it has to be affordable within what we've got as well. The fact that parents, including those who are on lower incomes, are used to currently discriminating between providers, not only with childcare settings but also within school settings as well, where very often schools now will say, 'We're doing something extra'— hefin david am: That may be the case, but it's not fair, is it? huw irranca-davies am: In a pure argument about equity, and if funding was no object and if the burdens of austerity were released and we were told we had money—'You can do what you want'—I think you'd be looking at a very different approach. But within what we have, I think this works very, very well indeed, because it's very transparent for parents who are used to making these decisions. But within those additional hours, you may be with a local provider in the middle of Powys that actually says, "Within that we provide everything"; you may be with a provider that says, "Well, actually, we do a whistles and bells thing and we take them out on trips, but it's up to you if you want to come, and here's the additional cost—".' Parents are used to making that decision and realistically, in terms of what we can do with this offer, this is actually—the arguments around this have been well rehearsed both with providers and with parents and we're not getting any concerns that this is going to unnecessarily disadvantage. In a total fairness argument, would you make it universal and with no additional charges? Well, possibly you would. But we work within the realistic— hefin david am: Or have a lower top-end income limit. huw irranca-davies am: Depending on how the Bill progresses in the main Chamber and when it goes through committee, there's that flexibility built into the Bill that those things can be looked at over time and adjusted. For the moment, I think there is an attraction, in terms of the upper limit, of saying: one—'Let's try not to add additional complexity, let's go with a scheme that's already working its way through the system, which is, if you like, what they're doing in England, and not add additional complexity. But, secondly, there is an appeal to universality, curiously, in saying to all parents—and I say this regardless of political hues across the committee here—there's an attraction when you say, 'Let's make an offer focused on working parents as it is', as universal to those working parents as possible, and avoid the administrative costs of saying, 'Well, let's take the upper limit down to £80 or £60 or £55.' There's always the question of how much additional cost is incurred in actually doing that tweak of complexity. darren millar am: Just to ask, the labour market costs are changing, aren't they? You've got the national living wage increasing—[Inaudible.]—that's going to have a bearing, isn't it, on the affordability of this project in terms of the childcare offer and the suitability of the £4.50 per hour regime? By the time it's fully rolled out, of course, that £4.50 rate is going to be a number of years old, for example. Do you have plans to review that? Where is it headed? Because it's certainly not going to be enough in the future. huw irranca-davies am: It depends how far in the future you're looking. I have to say, the feedback that we're having at the moment from organisations like the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and from the National Day Nurseries Association Wales and others is that this is the right rate and it's suitable not only today but for the foreseeable future of rolling this out. darren millar am: But they've raised concerns about the national living wage implications, haven't they, as well? huw irranca-davies am: Of course, and I think it's incumbent on us as well to not— darren millar am: So, it's not fair to say that they haven't raised concerns about the rate. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but what they're not arguing for at the moment is for this rate to be raised. darren millar am: But they have suggested that in meetings— huw irranca-davies am: That in future— darren millar am: Absolutely. huw irranca-davies am: Well, of course, in future, any Minister, any committee, will want to come back and look at—is the hourly rate, as one element of the scheme, appropriate to the current financial challenges for the sector, and not least, by the way, as we try not only to develop the workforce, but to develop the career pathways through this as well? And I think that's the right discussion to be had, live time, as this is taken forward. But at this moment in time, we're not getting people saying within this part of the roll-out that we need to adjust this amount. darren millar am: So, have you forecasted for any adjustment in the rate going forward in terms of affordability of the project? Because you've still got this £100 million price tag on it, haven't you? huw irranca-davies am: Similar to the point that was raised with Hefin about Cardiff and Newport, if we identify that the rate is not appropriate, if it's—. I don't think anybody's going to come back to us and say that it's too little. But do bear in mind that it's above where the average England rate is, even though there's this complex variability within the English rate that has caused some confusion there, which is why the universal rate with us has been welcomed. If we find, as we pilot it, or if we find because there are more expensive areas for it to be delivered in, there needs to be adjustment, then we'll be back in front of the committee arguing why that needs to be the case. darren millar am: But that won't put the project at risk in terms of its finances? huw irranca-davies am: No, no. We are still very confident, looking forward, on the best projections we have, fed by the live input that's coming in from the pilot, which will be fed again in the autumn—the Arad report coming forward—that we have not only the capacity to actually deliver this—challenging as this is, we have the capacity to deliver it—but also that the funding that's available, on our best estimate—the estimate we've stood by, that broad ball park of that £100 million figure—it's deliverable within that. And if it changes, I'll have to be sitting down with my boss, Vaughan Gething, and with Mark Drakeford, to argue the case on it. But that rate, combined with the other elements of this childcare offer—there is sufficient there allocated to actually deliver the whole roll-out. mark reckless am: Minister, as a parent who's been researching childcare options, it's obvious to me that in Cardiff, and to a degree in Newport and Monmouthshire, costs are substantially higher than this, and I haven't been able to find anywhere that has a six-hour day for £27, which is implied by your rate. Isn't it the case that rents and wages are higher and therefore you're going to need a higher rate to make it work? Isn't that already obvious? Why are you postponing coming back and looking at this until some point in the future? huw irranca-davies am: Chair, my biggest fear is a parent who's actually involved in this area already, but, having been one myself—. Mark, you may be right, that's exactly why we're piloting it and that's why when we pilot in Cardiff and Newport, we know we have lessons to learn over the affordability and the £4.50 per hour rate. mark reckless am: But you're not piloting it in any of the high-cost areas that I've referred to. mark reckless am: When are you starting? huw irranca-davies am: Cardiff and Newport—September. The reason we've gone for the other areas first, by the way—please take this back to any authorities affected—is simply because we've done deep dives into areas that vary from very rural areas in mid Wales, areas in north Wales, areas around Welsh language provision, areas in deep valleys, understanding the cultural and the economic impacts. So, we've held back a little bit from going into what we know is an obvious challenge within the more expensive areas of provision. But it's coming, it's imminent, and we'll learn the lessons from it. And do you know, you may be right? And if you are right, that it's more expensive, and we need a higher rate within those areas, then we're going to have to come back and discuss it with the committee. lynne neagle am: Just before I bring David in on the issue that Hefin raised about the chargeable items, your paper says that providers can charge up to £7.50 a day for food, snacks, transport and consumables such as nappies. Now, that's £37.50 a week, which is a lot of money for parents, and I just wondered if you wanted to comment on that figure? But also, do you think there's a risk that providers who maybe aren't charging at the moment may start charging because of any new pressures that arise because of this scheme? huw irranca-davies am: I think they're the right areas to flag up, and if I thought that was going to happen I'd be concerned as we take this forward and design this scheme. I think part of the evaluation from Arad will also show us that—whether or not, within the pilot areas that we are already in, which are quite diverse, that is happening. We're only one term into learning the lessons, by the way, but I would want to make sure that we design a scheme where we are not heaping on disadvantage or where there was exploitation of disadvantaged families. I think also, by the way, that providers know that this is a collaborative effort to do this here. It's not in their interests, I have to say, as the umbrella bodies or individual providers, to see this as some way that they can unduly rake in additional income from this on the backs of poorer families. But especially, I have to say, the early evaluation that we've seen already suggests that the greatest proportion of those who are taking advantage of this scheme in the early parts—in the early evaluation—are those who are below the average working wage within in Wales. That's by far the greatest number of people who are doing it, and we don't want them then being priced out because of add-ons. So, there has to be some pragmatism, I have to say, and some open partnership working here with the sector, and we do have that. john griffiths am: I want to come back to the £4.50 rate, but in terms of working with the sector, briefly, if I might, Chair, I just wonder, Huw, in terms of that £4.50 figure and understanding the sector in Wales, to what extent are we talking about a market rate and to what extent are we talking about the increase in demand that will come from the scheme and how that relates to economies of scale and capacity? Is it purely a market rate or is there a conversation with the sector in terms of the benefits that will come from this scheme and how they should be recognised in terms of setting the rate? huw irranca-davies am: This has been a very open dialogue with the sector around affordability, around the hourly rate and around what might happen in future as well. This is not a pure hard data-driven analysis that says, 'Here we've calculated everything and this is the rate that will satisfy it', because we recognise that there's great diversity in provision out there, and we also recognise that things will change over time. I think we need to, as we take this scheme forward and look at the full roll-out, continue in that very open dialogue with the sector not about what is purely a market-driven amount but actually what is also affordable for the Welsh Government within the constraints that we have. Just to flag up one issue, it's right that we're focusing on those elements that aren't included within it, to some extent as well, and the effect of that on more disadvantaged families, but that has to be balanced with the pocket of affordability for this scheme as well. Let me give you a clear illustration: some of our calculations have suggested that if we included free food within this offer as well, it would add something like in the region of 50p to that £4.50 rate. That would have, at this moment, impacts on the affordability of this and the roll-out of it. I would need to be going back to my seniors and arguing the case now, okay? But, it's that open dialogue with the sector that says, 'There's one thing about what you're saying you demand as a market; there's another thing about what we're saying that we have affordability from taxpayers' money to actually put into this'. They also understand, John, that as well as an enabling policy—and we're seeing the evidence, by the way; I can cite it—of individuals who are being helped into more flexible options to get back into work, increase their hours and so on, this is also about building capacity in a fundamental foundation sector that is in every single part of Wales. The sector itself understands that if we boost the childcare offer in all its diversity, including, by the way, not just the independent sector but social enterprises and third-sector organisations, such as exist in Neath and elsewhere that I was involved in 20 or 30-odd years ago setting up—that has an economic impact that goes beyond that immediate family who are receiving the provision to the wider communities as well. So, it's an open dialogue on what the rate should be rather than purely, 'Our wonks have crunched the numbers and we've come up with £4.50.' lynne neagle am: David, you had a question on the pilots. Before I go to my question, I want to come back to Mark Reckless's question and the answer you gave. I got the impression that if there is a need to look at different rates because of the higher-end areas, you may therefore have different sets of rates and not a universal rate. Is that also on the cards? huw irranca-davies am: David, it's possible. I think our preference would be, I have to say, to stick with the universal rate, because we know it's—. One of the defining hallmarks of the way that we've taken this scheme forward is learning in live time as we pilot and expand the pilots into different areas and different types of provision. If we learn lessons from that that suggest we need to come back and look at a differential in more-expensive-to-provide areas, then we'll have to look at that, but there might be other ways of splicing it. We might find, Mark, we might find, David, that we go in and when everything is tallied up, the £4.50 per hour works in supporting provision there. If I can now remind you: I don't remember the word 'affordability' coming in the manifesto pledge of the Government. In the situation regarding Welsh-medium, you answered that a little bit earlier, but I have concerns about capacity. There's clearly a need to get more staff, because in your own paper you say that the report in 2016 said you do not have the childcare capacity in Wales at the moment. Do you believe that you can actually deliver the workforce to meet that capacity, first of all through the English medium, but secondly through the Welsh medium as well? Because there's a clear need to look at it. Do you actually think you've got that workforce capacity set up before this is fully rolled out? huw irranca-davies am: I hope, Chair, you'll appreciate that in our submission to you we've been very open. We have confidence that we can do this if everybody is working together across the sector, across the local authorities. Let me talk broadly about capacity, first of all, including English and Welsh-medium provision for children with complex needs, provision for children with disabilities—all of this. The work that we're doing to increase both capacity in terms of trained staff and qualified staff: we have the 10-year plan that I mentioned, which has already been announced. So, we're identifying not only broadly at a national level where we need to develop those qualifications, but also at a regional, geographic level as well, and that's being taken forward. As you can see from what I've said before, it's rolling out progressively, but with all 22 authorities we're working with them on their childcare sufficiency assessments to identify where their shortages are. david rees am: What have the pilot programmes actually shown you about this, and how are you going to move this forward? huw irranca-davies am: Well, it's precisely that. So, within the pilot areas, we have a greater depth of analysis now of where both the workforce and the physical provisions are. Whether those are maintained or non-maintained or third sector or school facilities or whatever, we've got a much deeper granulation of identifying where that is, and we're working, then, with those authorities, with the capital moneys that we've allocated to this and the workforce development, and with local colleges, to develop the workforce and the physical constraints. But we're also doing that with the other 22, with all the 22 authorities as well, in anticipation of the wider roll-out. And by the way, it's not only the Cardiffs and the Newports; it's all the other ones where there isn't full roll-out. We're engaged with them deeply at the moment with that analysis on their childcare sufficiency assessments, both in terms of workforce, but also physical provision. It doesn't mean, by the way, that we exclude the third sector or social enterprise approach, or the independent sector, but co-location could be key to the roll-out of this in the right areas where it can be done, because then we avoid any fracture between the education hours and the childcare hours: the physical transportation of children from one location to another. So, we're engaged with the 22 authorities on that: where could that be developed, who would be the providers that would do it and do they have the workforce to scale up to do it? If not, how do they talk to local colleges to do that? So, we're doing that at the moment. I mentioned we've put the £1 million additional funding into the meithrin over the next two years, targeting 40 new Welsh-medium groups by 2021, which pretty much coincides with the full roll-out of this. So, all of those things, David, give us a confidence that we're going to be in the right place. david rees am: But in particular, take the Welsh language—I understand Gwynedd, and I won't ask another question on that for obvious reasons at this point in time—but in some of the other areas where you've piloted, you've gone partial in some areas. When there's Welsh language education, and the three to five-year-olds go to schools, they go from all areas of the council, basically. They don't actually go necessarily from the local area, and therefore you're getting a different picture. Have you been able to assess the actual impact, properly, upon the Welsh-medium side of things? Because, for example, my grandchildren will go from my area, which may not be in one of the considerations, to a school that may be in that consideration, and that happens regularly. We know that historically we've got, across the country, a shortage of Welsh-language childcare provision—meithrin and so on—but we have not only a strategy in place, but the fact that we've got local authorities now doing their own assessments within their area, across the piste of childcare, but also in terms of Welsh language, that means then that we can start filling those gaps with the money we've put to it, and that includes in all parts of Wales, including those areas within south Wales and others that are less deep in their tradition of speaking Welsh over recent history, anyway, but where the demand for it is massive. So, local authorities are tasked with doing their own assessments of childcare sufficiency for this childcare offer. They're identifying the gaps, David, and we will work with them and with providers to fill those gaps, and that includes with the umbrella organisations for Welsh language childcare provision. And this does mean, Chair, that it will be different, as it currently is in different areas: the type of provision, where the provision is located. This offer won't happen unless the provision is there for those children with complex needs, children with disabilities, Welsh language provision, as well as more generic provision as well, but it will be diverse in its provision around areas. lynne neagle am: I do want to move on now, John, so if I can come back to your question. llyr gruffydd am: I would like to pick up on the last point, if I may. A question from me though, the wider question, is: how do we mainstream Welsh medium into childcare? Because, clearly, leaving it to meithrin is one way of doing it, but there's a lot of existing infrastructure out there that we need to upskill in terms of the provision of Welsh medium. So, it's not a question as such, but I'm sure you recognise that—that there is a challenge there. Because if we are to get to where we want to get to, it isn't about growing meithrin, or Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin; it's about mainstreaming Welsh-medium provision within the wider sector. So, looking at the manifesto commitment that was made in 2016, clearly the main or the principal aim of this policy is around removing some of the barriers to secure employment for parents, albeit with very positive outcomes for the children themselves, and we don't ignore or neglect that at any cost. But I'm just wondering: how would you then reconcile that with the findings of the Public Policy Institute for Wales report, which I mentioned to you yesterday, which was commissioned by the Government to look at policy options in this context, which concluded that there will be no 'substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children' and that 'the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers in families with a child of target age is extremely small'? huw irranca-davies am: Well, the first thing I would say is that what we're learning from the pilots is that it is having real-life impacts on parents, including in disadvantaged families, and we're having this fed back from real-life situations on the ground, where parents are making different choices in the areas where it's being piloted. So, the types of different choices they're making could be to expand the number of hours that they're in work, because they now have a choice, they're not constrained to certain hours or whatever, they have a wider choice, with a wider number of providers, and they're making that decision and they're able to expand their hours. Some, by the way, Llyr, I have to say—and, again, these are real-life situations—are saying, 'What we're doing is not expanding our hours, but, because of the increased provision of childcare and the increased offer, we are now able to actually spend more time with our children, because we're adjusting our hours of work, based on the childcare provision offer.' That in itself, I have to say, is a worthy aim. But I would say what we found out, in real-life examples—I'm not saying that in direct contrast to what that paper was saying— llyr gruffydd am: That's what I was going to ask; it sounds as if you're saying they were wrong. huw irranca-davies am: But what we have is the advantage of this phased roll-out, where we are learning, live time, and I think the Arad report in October—we're hoping to see the final report in October—will help put some flesh on this as well. It is already having an effect: the majority of parents who are taking advantage of this are actually in those groups that are below the average wage, they are making positive choices to get into this offer and to either expand, take more hours, adjust their own lifestyles around it or more. I can cite to you examples, because I've asked my own officials on this, of families who tell us they're saving up to £250 a week on the basis of this offer within the pilot areas, who've increased their hours of employment, who've changed their working patterns to suit their work life, but also to suit their families. llyr gruffydd am: So, in effect, you are saying that the PPIW report got it wrong, basically. huw irranca-davies am: No, I'm not saying that they got it wrong and it's wholly wrong, but it is interesting, within that report, that it did identify that there were a range of factors here that play upon this. It's not only the childcare; it is the transport, it's the training and education, it's the employment support and all of those. And we agree with that, but we do think, and what we're seeing, live time, at the moment—maybe at some point, somebody else will produce a report beyond the Arad report in October that will say, 'Well, actually, the way this is designed, that they've done it in Wales, is having a material effect on those families, particularly the most disadvantaged families.' llyr gruffydd am: But you're asking us to support a Bill here, albeit a framework Bill, to achieve a policy aim where you're giving us anecdotal evidence that it's having an impact, contrary to research that's previously been done, albeit with promises that, maybe, an evaluation sometime in the autumn might tell us a different story. huw irranca-davies am: We know, and we are constantly told—I'm sure this is commonplace in constituency surgeries, as well—by parents who say that the biggest mitigating factor for them, actually, either going into work at an earlier opportunity or expanding their hours is purely the cost of childcare in front of them. I think our further reports, both Arad and as we go forward with the pilots, will substantiate this more. It'll go beyond the anecdotal, it will show that parents are having an enhanced opportunity to balance their work life, to make better choices, either in terms of expanding the number of hours they're working and increasing their disposable income within their families, or actually making it simply better for them in their family situation, where they don't currently have that offer. So, I get the fact that we have one report out there, but it's one report. It's a report, and we're not dismissing it entirely, but what we are saying is: we are now working with real-life piloting of an offer, and we are seeing the benefits coming through. As we roll this out, we'll be back in front of this committee saying, 'Well, this is now what we're finding. We can go beyond the real-life stories that I'm relating to you now, and we can say, "Well, here's some hard data that goes with this, as well."' llyr gruffydd am: Okay. You reference in your paper, as well, another report, which is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report, 'Starting Strong 2017', and it highlights countries that have, maybe, the most similar childcare offer to what's being proposed here in Wales. I'm just wondering what assessment you've made of those similarities, because, clearly, there'll be different economic contexts in different countries and different levels of public expenditure, et cetera. huw irranca-davies am: We haven't done really detailed analysis of comparisons with other countries far from Wales, but we will be doing work that will be doing some benchmarking against, where we can find similar models, where appropriate—do some appropriate benchmarking. What we have been doing is looking at what's been happening across the border in England and trying to learn from the lessons there, and also the offer in Scotland as well, which are both close to hand. But we will do some work, Llyr, around benchmarking against good comparative international examples, where appropriate. llyr gruffydd am: Yes, there we are, because one of my concerns was that the focus in a number of the countries in the OECD report are for nought to three-year-olds, whereas, of course, the policy focus here is for a slightly older age group. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, and I fully get that, but again, and I know it can be said, 'Well, this is an example' but it's real-life examples. We are having people who are telling us that they're now making the choice to go to work earlier because this is extended to three-year-olds, but they would have delayed. There is a direct outcome there if this childcare offer enables somebody to say, 'Well, I'm going to go a year earlier back into work and bring income into the family.' llyr gruffydd am: Okay. So, moving on, then, to the impact on the child and this whole question around school readiness, of course, which is an important one to address. Clearly, one of the main outcomes of this policy will be the academic performance of children, hopefully, later on in life. I want to come back to this point that the Children's Commissioner for Wales and others have raised: the concern that, actually, the most disadvantaged—those from workless households—are being excluded from this policy. Isn't there therefore a risk that they'll be left even further behind? huw irranca-davies am: I've had long, detailed and positive discussions with the children's commissioner on this, and I know the children's commissioner would want a more universal offer, but I make two points on that: one is, that was not what the commitment in the manifesto was, and it's not the offer that's being taken forward now. It is a different thing, a universal offer, and there are issues around that with complexity, and also affordability. But it isn't the offer that we took forward into Government; this is what we're taking forward. I'd say two significant things on it: one is, this doesn't stand alone purely as 30 hours of childcare. Within this, there are 10 hours of the foundation years, educational input, which is there for everybody. But before that, particularly for those disadvantaged families, before we even get to that stage, you have schemes such as Flying Start, and I know this committee has looked in detail at Flying Start and has said that it would like to see it rolled out everywhere. If I had all the money under the sun, I would really do that, Chair; I would really do it. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but the fact that Flying Start, we know, is leading to those outcomes where those children, in quite challenged circumstances very often, are more ready to step up to the foundation year, are more ready, then, to step through into mainstream education in later years—those things tie together. So, there are the 10 hours of education provision that sits here for every family, by the way, within this offer, let alone the childcare. That doesn't mean that everybody's excluded, but it does mean, yes, that this offer is focused on working parents. In fact, it does overlap with other offers that other political parties were taking forward into the last election, which was focusing on how we support the biggest thing that we often have in our constituency mailbags, which is, 'I can't afford to go back to work because I can't afford the childcare. Don't tell me to go back to work, I can't afford it.' llyr gruffydd am: The majority of disadvantaged children don't live in Flying Start areas, do they? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, indeed. llyr gruffydd am: So, there's a missing cohort there that can't access one or the other, and the school readiness gap is growing, and, really, are we focusing our resources in the right place here? huw irranca-davies am: Well, yes, in terms of this scheme, but it doesn't sit alone as this scheme—it's the wider plethora of, I have to say, progressive and advanced initiatives that we have in Wales that take different forms. It's not only Flying Start that provides that other support for parents, and readiness not only for the parents and for their children, but also the support into work. So, if, for example, you look at the Parents, Childcare and Employment programme, which is separate from this, there is support there for every parent in terms of helping them get supported into work from disadvantaged families. If you look at the support for the children, we've got the 10 hours that sits within the sphere of the education, but we've also got all the other family intervention programmes that help with socialisation, education and so on and so forth. If you look at this solely on its own and say, 'Well, there is nothing else there; the rest of Wales is a desert and there's no support for parents, for getting parents back into work or for those parents who are not seeking to go back into work but also need the support and for their children in education', I'd be worried. But, actually, this fits as part of the jigsaw that we have in Wales, where I think we are well ahead of the other nations. Yes, we could do more, and I always say, Llyr; I always say, Chair, that if I had—I don't have a chequebook at all, because it's not in my gift—if I had a blank cheque I'd do a lot more, but we don't. But what we can do is get the right schemes in place, and if this helps drive more choices for working parents, including, by the way—. There are niceties within this as well; it doesn't have to be that both parents are working. darren millar am: I am surprised by the answer there, particularly given that one of the ambitions of the Government is to close this attainment gap later in life when schoolchildren get to their examinations, when they're 16 years old. Yet this appears to be driving a bigger wedge in terms of development, which could, of course, lead to a perverse outcome later on in life, but I don't want to ask you about that. If I can just very quickly ask you: has consideration been given to making free childcare available to parents where they're in 16 hours or more of education each week? So, they may not be entering the labour market, but, of course, one of those barriers to them getting back into the labour market could well be their education, so what arrangements are in place there? huw irranca-davies am: Darren, we have considered it, and we haven't included it within the scheme because this is designed to enable parents to go into work, not into training to enable them to get into work. There are other forms of support available for parents in terms of college and so on and so forth, but it's not this scheme. darren millar am: But it's not prescribed support, is it? You know, it's not universally available to people who might be wanting to get back into the labour market over that barrier. You must have done some costings, then, if you've considered it, and you must have tried to identify numbers. huw irranca-davies am: We haven't— darren millar am: So, you haven't considered it that much, have you? huw irranca-davies am: We have actually considered—. We consider it from the point of, 'What is this scheme set up to do?' It's very clear. But, very specifically, when you say you've considered it, what you mean is you thought about it but you've not costed it, you've not identified the numbers that might be involved— huw irranca-davies am: Absolutely, absolutely. darren millar am: And therefore you've not considered whether it might be affordable in addition to the policy objective that this is trying to meet. huw irranca-davies am: No, Darren, you're right: we haven't considered affordability because we've considered it on first principles to do with what this offer is trying to do. It doesn't fit within the offer so, as such, why would we do the costings? darren millar am: Perhaps I can frame my question in another way. Are you prepared to consider it if you're able to identify the numbers and potential cost? huw irranca-davies am: Ah, right, okay. We'd be interested in your thoughts as a committee, but it doesn't actually fit within the first principles of what the scheme is designed to do. Darren, can I just pick up on your point, in case you misinterpreted what I was saying to Llyr? I drew attention in my answer to Llyr to schemes such as the PaCE scheme. In Gwynedd, one of our pilot areas, they are combining the Team Around the Family with this childcare offer. It is not the case, as you've suggested then, that there is somehow more disadvantage being heaped on other families. What this does is tie in in those pilot areas with the existing provision, and that's the way we want to see it work. So, I wouldn't want you to be under any misapprehension that this makes conditions worse for families. Those families who have a registered carer in them where one parent works, and those families who have somebody on incapacity benefit will qualify for the scheme. All families will qualify for the 10 hours of education. In Gwynedd, they're wrapping the Team Around the Family with this offer— darren millar am: But on the other hand, Minister, you've also suggested that this will accelerate child development for those kids who are able to access it, and yet not all kids will be able to access it, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds. huw irranca-davies am: But all children can access the 10 hours, and they can access Flying Start— darren millar am: But 10 hours is very different to 30 hours, is it not? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, but they can access Flying Start or they can access the Team Around the Family— darren millar am: If they're in a Flying Start area. huw irranca-davies am: —or they can be in a children's zone area or they can— darren millar am: If they're in those areas. lynne neagle am: Right, I've got John and then David, and the questions and answers are going to have to be brief, please. In terms of child development and how this fits with wider Welsh Government strategy, Huw, I'd be interested in what you'd have to say about the quality of childcare. We're talking a lot about quantity, but obviously we want to up quality, and that's recognised by Welsh Government. I just wonder how that sits within the £4.50, because there could be pressures in the opposite direction there, and some tension between wanting to up the qualifications and quality of workforce whilst keeping affordability in place. huw irranca-davies am: John, you're absolutely right, and two things on that: I visited one of the facilities in the Valleys the other day that was taking this forward—a very good independent sector-run childcare provision, with Welsh language and English language running alongside each other, and I asked the point about the integration, curiously, but what they were doing was—. Their standard of staff was an exemplar of what we'd want to see: not only very well-qualified childcare staff who were qualified within not simply the child-minding but the wider child development aspects—. So, it was hard to differentiate, in some ways, what was happening there from what would be happening in a child development educational surrounding, and including the nutritional stuff and all of that. Now, that is the model we need to see, and the £4.50 seems to work, at the moment, for that. But the quality, I think, is key, and that's why we're focused very much on registered inspected providers, as opposed to every Tom, Dick and Harriet. john griffiths am: If we want to increase salary levels, though, which I think is a necessary part of this picture of improving quality, then obviously that might impact on the £4.50 rate. huw irranca-davies am: Yes, indeed, and we are cognisant—. It's interesting that we focus on whether the £4.50 is affordable, but the £4.50—you know, we're having an interesting discussion internally about how that £4.50 offer per hour sits alongside others, such as the foundation phase offer, and it's more generous. So, I think it's: how do we align, as time goes by, the child development aspects of the whole early years stuff? Now, we're doing some fascinating work that I think I've referred to on this committee before about aligning the early years development entirely. Now, this is an evolving piece of work, but I think the childcare offer should ultimately fit within that. How do you make sure that every offer that is Government-funded works on child development? It's not simply childcare. mark reckless am: In terms of child development and not accentuating disadvantage, another area where this may apply is the kids who are born in the summer term, compared to those who are born in Michaelmas. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that they start with a disadvantage at school and often don't make that up, even as they go through school. What is the rationale for providing the older children with five terms of this, compared to three terms for the younger children who already have the relative disadvantage? huw irranca-davies am: I'm looking to my colleagues here and— jo-anne daniels: Well, the criteria for eligibility for the offer are the term after the child's third birthday, which is equivalent to the eligibility criteria for the foundation phase early education offer. Clearly, then, the number of terms that a child is able to, or parents are able to, access the childcare offer will be influenced by when the child is born, but I think you may be referring to a sort of parallel question, which is about whether—. There have been questions raised about whether children who are summer-born should, in fact, start school in the term after they turn four, or whether actually they should be allowed the flexibility to start school at a later age, which I know is something that has been tested in England, and there is some mixed evidence about school starting age and the birth month of children. That's the compulsory school— jo-anne daniels: Well, that's the legal position, but, obviously, in practice, most children will start school in the term after they're four. mark reckless am: So, given the disadvantage we know that the younger children born in the summer have, relative to the older ones, why accentuate that by giving the older kids five terms of this project, which you tell us will have such positive effects on their child development, but the summer kids only get three? Doesn't that make the situation worse? jo-anne daniels: I'm not 100 per cent sure I understand the question. So, children will stop being in receipt of the childcare offer once they become eligible for a full-time school place, and most children will become eligible for a full-time school place in the term after their fourth birthday. mark reckless am: But the older kids become eligible for this five terms before they start school, where the younger kids, who're already disadvantaged, become eligible for it only three terms before, accentuating the problem, surely. Could more thought be given to this issue? huw irranca-davies am: We'll take that away. Minister, you got, or Welsh Government, really, got the Public Policy Institute for Wales to study this proposed policy and they concluded that it would have no substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children, and that the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers and families with a child of target age is extremely small. What do you say to that? huw irranca-davies am: Well, Mark, I can only refer to what I said earlier. Our real-life evidence that is accumulating now is showing us examples of where people are making savings and increasing disposable income—as I mentioned earlier, up to £250 per week within some poorer households; so, real-life examples—but also where it's enabling them to make much better choices about when they work because there's more childcare offer available, or, alternatively, to work their childcare provision and their working hours around being able to spend more time with their children, which they currently can't do. lynne neagle am: And I don't want to go back over Llyr's questions. They said if you had a work requirement, as you do, it would cost £61 million a year on their numbers, substantially less than you're saying, and then they said it would cost £144 million without a work requirement. Now, that implies to me that 57 per cent of the parents wouldn't be working and would continue not working even if there is this available with a work requirement. , are those numbers really credible from PPIW? huw irranca-davies am: It's not quite comparing like with like. Just to draw your attention, Mark, and the committee's attention to that the PPIW analysis was looking at a provision of 38 weeks. And the fact that we are having parents already saying to us that their ability to actually extend that into the 48 weeks—beyond the term time and so on—carries advantages that are not picked up in that report. mark reckless am: And what is your early assessment of the income levels of families who are finding this offer most attractive? huw irranca-davies am: I think, from recollection, we're one term in, so we're one term into the assessment, and I mentioned earlier that the majority of parents are below the average income of £26,000 in Wales— it's around about 60 per cent of families are those. It's disproportionately towards those below the average income, and many of them amongst the most disadvantaged families are opting in to this offer where it is being offered. mark reckless am: And what consideration have you given to integrating this Welsh Government offer with the UK Government offer of tax-free childcare that's applicable across the UK? huw irranca-davies am: Well, that offer, as you rightly say, is available across the UK and still is. The fact that it's more integrated within their scheme within England—the tax offer is more integrated—has caused them some problems in complexity and in the administration of this and the digital platforms that they've had. That offer is still available in Wales and it might well be that parents who opt in to that say, 'Well, we do want to buy additional hours beyond the 30 hours', but this 30 hours is there for every— mark reckless am: I wonder, Minister, whether what you're doing, in a very good way, to promote your project—people will see that as the childcare offer and, at least in my experience, very few parents are aware of the tax-free childcare on a UK basis. That's absolutely one of the lessons we've learnt from even this early stage of the early implementers, because there are elements of a childcare offer within the tax offer, within universal credit, within working tax credit. So, one of the lessons that we've learnt from the Talk Childcare communication strategy alongside this is the importance of communicating to parents and providers who the parents go to what is best for them to access, how they access it easily, and we'll learn more as these pilots roll by. mark reckless am: So, as you go into the Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs criteria—you have a £100,000 cap, as well as the £6,000 minimum wage cap, and you're getting HMRC to say whether people are eligible, which requires them to set up that account with HMRC—will you assure this committee that you will make sure that parents who are doing that are aware of the UK tax-free childcare offer, and that their providers also are? Because we've been looking, say, at the £7.50 extra per day, but, if someone's eligible for this offer, they should also be eligible for the UK tax-free childcare offer and have set up the account to do that. So, will you make sure that those parents know to pay their provider out of tax-free funds, rather than paying them the fully taxed amounts, which might otherwise happen? huw irranca-davies am: Yes, absolutely. owain lloyd: Yes, just to say, as I understand how things currently work with the English offer and TFC, when a parent applies, that automatically happens in terms of, on the one hand, they're given a 'yes' or 'no' in terms of their eligibility for the 30-hours offer in England, but they will also be told in terms of the parental account that's set up under TFC. So, that is integrated in the offer, and we'll be looking to do the same in terms of the Welsh offer. But, obviously, what we're not looking at doing in terms of the 30-hours offer is the setting up of the parental account to make the payment; the payment currently is very much between local government and the provider directly, rather than the TFC model, where the parent pays the provider. Can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending? You are, of course, back with us on 16 May for Stage 1 of the Bill, so we will look forward to seeing you then. So, if Members are content, I'd suggest that we note all of them in a block, if that's okay. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation the chair: I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): Thank you, Mr. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. dan albas (central okanagansimilkameennicola, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent? right hon. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. justin trudeau: Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no? right hon. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said? right hon. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued? right hon. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. justin trudeau: When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%? right hon. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic? right hon. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. jenny kwan: While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. justin trudeau: We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them ms. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously? right hon. justin trudeau: I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds? right hon. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. jenny kwan: I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians. candice bergen: Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle? the chair: The honourable minister. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. bill blair: It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. bill blair: Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. alain rayes: I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments?? hon. diane lebouthillier: I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. alain rayes: Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected? hon. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month? hon. diane lebouthillier: As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do. alain rayes: Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000? hon. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000? hon. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB? hon. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed? the chair: The honourable minister. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions. jamie schmale: Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement? hon. jamie schmale: The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils? hon. carolyn bennett: Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people. jamie schmale: I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. carolyn bennett: I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. jamie schmale: I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. carolyn bennett: Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS. stephanie kusie: Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. deb schulte: I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500. stephanie kusie: According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. stephanie kusie: According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. anita anand: Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields the chair: We'll have to go back to Mrs. stephanie kusie: A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE? hon. anita anand: I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters? the chair: The honourable minister. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): Thank you, Mr. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive? hon. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon. chris d'entremont: In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future? hon. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada? the chair: Honourable minister, the floor is yours. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector. simon-pierre savard-tremblay (saint-hyacinthebagot, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time? the chair: The honourable minister. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding? the acting chair (mr. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms. bruce stanton): We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. brian masse (windsor west, ndp): During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions? the acting chair (mr. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps. chrystia freeland: Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps. chrystia freeland: I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. chrystia freeland: Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. brian masse: Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides? hon. chrystia freeland: I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. brian masse: With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed? hon. chrystia freeland: Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done? the acting chair (mr. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers mr. brian masse: Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers? hon. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers. brian masse: Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19? hon. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half Mr. brian masse: Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's? hon. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed? hon. jacques gourde: Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force. jacques gourde: Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country? hon. jacques gourde: Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens? hon. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side. bruce stanton): Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no? the acting chair (mr. bill blair: The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded? the acting chair (mr. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work. corey tochor: Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do? hon. corey tochor: Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was the acting chair (mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. carla qualtrough: Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income. corey tochor: I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy? the acting chair (mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following: Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both: wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no? the acting chair (mr. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis. navdeep bains: As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that the acting chair (mr. ziad aboultaif: In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP? hon. navdeep bains: Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question. ziad aboultaif: Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP? hon. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward. ziad aboultaif: The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. navdeep bains: Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward. ziad aboultaif: There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld. david yurdiga (fort mcmurraycold lake, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help? hon. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production? hon. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program? hon. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit? hon. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well. elizabeth may: As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public. elizabeth may: Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue? hon. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. patty hajdu: I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care? hon. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors? hon. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity? hon. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy? the chair: The honourable minister has the floor. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus. monique pauz (repentigny, bq): There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking. the chair: Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians the chair: Mr.Simard has the floor. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector? hon. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that the chair: The next question will go to Mr. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic? hon. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen? hon. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment? hon. bill blair: It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold? hon. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): I have a point of order, Mr.Chair. alexis brunelle-duceppe: There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. the chair: As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time. steven guilbeault: I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members. the chair: I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities? the chair: The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking

Bethan Owen believes that they can provide advice based on visible data and information, as well as their own judgment. The uncertainty surrounding Brexit is a major concern. Dr. David Blaney explains that they have various connections to institutions and engage in conversations to gather information for assessing the financial sustainability, governance, management levels, and potential challenges of these institutions. During the meeting, the affordability of the universal amount of £4.50 and additional costs for specific cases were discussed. The group also examined the situations of families with different income levels and in different areas. It was suggested that the farm sector would take up the Prime Minister's proposal of an initial investment of $250 million. The government has implemented a financial safety net called the business risk management program, which includes $125 million in funding through AgriRecovery and changes to AgriStability to support farmers quickly. The agricultural sector, particularly farmers and related products, has been significantly impacted by Covid-19. The government has already provided various supports for this sector, with a focus on beef and pork producers, processors, and surplus sectors that can redirect products to food banks. The industry and suppliers have responded enthusiastically to the government's call for assistance during the crisis. During a discussion on fraudulence, Mr. Dan Albas questioned the Canadian government's handling of fraud cases, but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau emphasized that their priority is to provide support and help to Canadians. Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie raised concerns about the government supporting tax evaders through the large employer emergency financing facility. However, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau stated that their plans are focused on helping workers survive the pandemic and that overcoming the crisis is always their priority. Hon. Candice Bergen inquired about the handling of unopened mail at Service Canada and raised concerns about the government's decision to ban certain firearms. Hon. Bill Blair explained that the ban was implemented because these guns have been used in multiple murders in Canada. In summary, Bethan Owen and Dr. David Blaney provide advice based on data, information, and judgment regarding Brexit and the financial sustainability of institutions. The meeting discussed the affordability of the universal amount and additional costs for specific cases. The government has allocated an initial investment of $250 million for the farm sector and implemented a financial safety net program. The agricultural sector has been significantly affected by Covid-19, and the government has provided support to various sectors. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau emphasized the government's focus on supporting Canadians during the pandemic. Concerns were raised about fraudulence and the banning of certain firearms, with explanations provided by government officials.

What were the main topics discussed in the meeting regarding higher education institutions' preparations, hourly rates of the service, support offered to the agri-food sector, various supports for the agricultural sector, and issues related to petitions fraudulence, tax evasion, and violence handling?

then we'll do the evaluation , and then we can finish up after that with any changes that we'll need to make , or hopefully everything will fall right in line . Then we looked at the components the materials for the case , the different energy sources , the different types of chips , and made a decision on what we were going to use to make our remote . industrial designer: Can try to plug that in there user interface: There is our remo the banana . project manager: user interface: but it would be held in such a fashion , marketing: user interface: where it is , obviously it wouldn't be that floppy 'cause this would be hard plastic . So that's so that would hopefully help with grip , or like the ergonomics of it . user interface: And the the simplest functions would be almost identical to an iPod , where that one way ch through channels , that way th other way through channels . And then to access the more complicated functions you'd you sorta go , you press that and go through the menus . T that blue bits should be yellow , that that'd be where the batteries would be I suppose . user interface: Is there anything you want to add ? industrial designer: That's what we have there . you're supposed to hold it like that , but just if you grab it , take it from somewhere , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Right ? that's not project manager: industrial designer: I'd say a bit smaller would probably be nice . user interface: It's you know it's flimsy 'cause it's made out of heavy Play-Doh , marketing: project manager: Would you like to industrial designer: Right . so the criteria we're gonna be looking at are the complaints that we heard from the users who were interviewed earlier . So for the first one , we need to decide , did we solved the problem of the users who complained about an ugly remote ? industrial designer: . project manager: So if they think that what is out there is ugly , then yes I would say , I would say most definitely . industrial designer: I'd say , when it comes to the ergonomics , the form and stuff , yes that's definitely more beautiful than your average . industrial designer: So to answer that honestly I would rather say like , we have not solved the problem completely with the ugly remote because the colour is ugly , definitely . industrial designer: But project manager: Yeah something more modern to go a a modern colour to go with the modern form . You don't want your three feet huge L_C_D_ dis display in your living room that's hanging from the wall to be controlled with something like that . marketing: okay so , do you think , since we This was a a sign criteria , do you think maybe we should put it somewhere in the middle then ? industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: What do you think ? Three ? Four ? project manager: I would say marketing: Five ? project manager: four . Did we make it simple for new users ? industrial designer: It's very intuitive , I think yeah . 'Cause we've we've brought it down to basically four controls most common , which are channel and volume . project manager: So if we incorporate speech recognition into it then it could user interface: Just just to use , to find it when it was lost . But like I said , like I don't think you'd lose something so yellow so easily . user interface: And it's not gonna fall , like a rectangle would slip down behind things . That's gonna be a difficult shape to industrial designer: Well what project manager: And it is quite bright and user interface: Yeah . marketing: user interface: Maybe in the middle again , three or four or something ? project manager: industrial designer: S marketing: Okay . user interface: you know loo losing things is one of those things that people can lose , a million ways . user interface: You can pick it up and walk away with it and then you've lost it . project manager: But if we do go with the , with the speech recognition , then it , then our scale goes up quite a bit I think . If we eliminate the fact that you know it's impossible to guarantee that it's not gonna be lost then user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: With the speech recognition , which of course may be changed depending on budget . project manager: Which , which may be cheaper than speech recognition if it were just a industrial designer: Yes . marketing: Annoying alarm or something ? project manager: industrial designer: It's it's marketing: Yeah . user interface: So it can't be that industrial designer: the it's based on this anti anti-theft technology for suitcases and stuff , user interface: expensive . industrial designer: where you have one piece that's attached to your luggage , another piece that starts beeping . industrial designer: So that can also easily be integrated because these things are small enough to to hide , so you have one piece , you have to glue somewhere behind your stick it behind your T_V_ and the other user interface: stick it on the T_V_ . Are we adding one of these two features ? industrial designer: Let's add one of those features and say yes . industrial designer: user interface: don't get many mo remote controls with industrial designer: It's all just user interface: screens on . industrial designer: It's all just stolen technology when it comes down to user interface: Yeah it's stolen technology . project manager: But there's not a lot of yellow , there's not a lotta yellow . project manager: Course that wasn't really industrial designer: right user interface: Fa industrial designer: right right . marketing: But how many remotes do you see like this ? user interface: project manager: If we added the screaming factor then we go up . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: I would say we're probably at four . Because it's only got what , these parts are the grips and perhaps the back side the bottom the underneath on the back . marketing: And lastly , did we put the fashion in electronics ? project manager: industrial designer: Y yes . marketing: industrial designer: Well the recent fashion is rather displayed in the in the L_C_D_ and the way you operate it than the form and the colour , user interface: On the project manager: It's true . industrial designer: but it definitely is user interface: Be what we were told , and they'd say yeah , definitely . project manager: Two point marketing: project manager: two point four ? user interface: Is that some long division ? No . project manager: And what what is the acceptable criteria ? Is there like a scale that we have to hit ? marketing: Oh no . They just told me to industrial designer: marketing: pick my own criteria and have you guys evaluate it basically . industrial designer: project manager: The f the Wonder if I can make this industrial designer: project manager: What the Oh it won't let me do that . I can't 'cause I don't have my glasses on , industrial designer: project manager: but so we've got the energy source . and how many batteries do we think this will probably take ? user interface: project manager: Probably some e either two or four . industrial designer: At four it's gonna be too heavy , so that that's not our problem . industrial designer: project manager: Alright so for the electronics our choices are simpl simple chip-on-print , regular chip-on-print , advanced chip-on-print , sample sensor , sample speaker . user interface: We're advanced chip are we ? industrial designer: That's the advanced chip-on-print , yeah . project manager: Is that right or is it just one ? industrial designer: No that's just one . project manager: Maybe it's one because of the industrial designer: It's just one mo single mould , we can do that . project manager: I guess it doesn't matter 'cause the price on that one is zero , which is nice . We have pushbutton , scroll-wheel interface , integrated scroll-wheel pushbutton , and an L_C_D_ display . user interface: marketing: user interface: S industrial designer: S user interface: That's Yeah . project manager: So we actually have the L_C_D_ display marketing: user interface: And then project manager: and then is it the integrated or is it user interface: I'd say the integrated . project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Say mahogany or so marketing: It'd look really lovely . project manager: Well we only have one button so really we shouldn't be charged , industrial designer: just marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we shouldn't be charged anything for the the button supplements . We're gonna leave that one blank because we run on a L_C_D_ and scroll . So we'll go for the hand dynamo huh ? project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: So the only thing better than a banana-shaped remote is one that you shake . user interface: If it w What if we completely took out the the one single button we've got on . I suppose the L_C_D_ C_ display's the one that's pushing it up a bit though . project manager: Yeah 'cause the marketing: project manager: Well 'cause we have to have both right ? user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: let's let's face it , it also depends on the software on the on the television . industrial designer: You can have the the information that this thing transmits be being displayed on the on the screen . industrial designer: So s yeah let's take away the user interface: Yeah you could maybe take out the L_C_D_ dis display even , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: if it if it comes up on the computer itsel on the T_V_ itself . project manager: So we may not need the L_C_D_ display ? user interface: that is possible yeah . project manager: industrial designer: Okay , the user interface: marketing: project manager: Besides look at what the L_C_D_ does to our lovely remote . industrial designer: So we can just take away a heck of a lot of the marketing: user interface: marketing: . central ? marketing: What's the blue part ? user interface: That was just industrial designer: Oh that's just user interface: we ran out of yellow . project process , satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , new ideas found . project manager: Yeah I think user interface: We sort of knew where we were going straight away I thought . marketing: project manager: marketing: project manager: But as the day went along we had more idea of what we were doing . I think we tried a lotta different things and I think it was interesting as you guys brought up more information and studies that we were right on with a lot of those things . project manager: I had some problem with the pen I think , but minus your p marketing: Minus your PowerPoint fiasco . Incom industrial designer: they've just you know user interface: project manager: Have a industrial designer: Heads are gonna roll , believe me . And then we'll have to check with the main boss whether we can , what goes on after that

The Project Manager presented the budget, which was divided into different parts such as batteries, electronics, case materials, interface type, and button supplements. The team agreed that the push button, integrated scroll-wheel, and LCD display were expensive, but the case materials were all the same. Therefore, they decided to eliminate the LCD display since the information it provided could be displayed on the screen. They also decided to prioritize the recognition feature and make it prominent. Lastly, they chose to make the product pure yellow instead of having a blue button.

Summarize the team's discussion on the cost of the product.

Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of our remote controls and how we might pursue that . so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . project manager: Oh is that broccoli ? industrial designer: This one's broccoli . project manager: industrial designer: The it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits . I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but project manager: 'S a very bright strawberry . industrial designer: So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out . user interface: It's been a l project manager: user interface: It's been a little bit difficult to make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow . user interface: And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was or design yet actually , would be the thing the locator . user interface: Okay so that's just industrial designer: And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere user interface: So you have to have a button on your on your you have to attach the button to the industrial designer: Yeah we didn't design that . But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed industrial designer: project manager: we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be industrial designer: My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes . industrial designer: But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and d I dunno what that means . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Do you see anything that I've missed ? industrial designer: No I think that's alright . project manager: Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit . I think that's marketing: So I need where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually meets the standards we were set at the start . the method is we well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is everything's listed down . , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And we we have therefore in total We have five we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . marketing: so the que the questions I've given you c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own marketing: Yeah it's in the it's in the project documents . marketing: Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ? project manager: we can do it separately and then discuss it marketing: Yeah okay . project manager: Wait , one is true and marketing: project manager: so these are the questions we're answering . And one is marketing: yes it's if it's fancy you put one , project manager: One , right okay . Should be more like Are the batteries easy to insert ? industrial designer: I'm gonna say yes . project manager: Are we just about ready ? marketing: Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . It's marketing: We'll just do project manager: yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Yeah . project manager: Un unless you feel you need it t to marketing: I don't feel any project manager: okay okay . industrial designer: project manager: We'll user interface: marketing: right Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ? project manager: I I think we should industrial designer: It's four if you wanna do that . One point three is user interface: So it's a one was true and seven was false ? project manager: . industrial designer: Huh ? user interface: Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way marketing: Well industrial designer: Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top . user interface: I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? marketing: Yeah . Wait , is that two point one ? industrial designer: Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason . industrial designer: marketing: Okay I'll I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue . marketing: Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone . project manager: No no that's I think we should look at the ones that like where s where people said four , where it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote . marketing: do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? project manager: user interface: Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ? project manager: user interface: I think marketing: Four point two ? project manager: See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the is it gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It or bigger ? industrial designer: I think the wheel would probably be . project manager: Because user interface: What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: And like then it you could hold it in your hand better . industrial designer: I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of user interface: Yeah . project manager: but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat industrial designer: Well if they're that s stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . And would it even resemble fruit that way ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: Yeah like certain ones you'd have to limit the fruit selection , project manager: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: You could do , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like sorta like a joystick . So industrial designer: marketing: Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ? user interface: . marketing: despite the user interface: I think we needn't project manager: What if the it was just patterns on like we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber . project manager: But if we if we need marketing: Yeah and just have the colour match or something . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be user interface: project manager: if it if it in if it conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Yeah . user interface: Or like I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think see as like marketing: user interface: like you could if it was only this you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable . user interface: So like maybe that's just too big project manager: Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that , user interface: because project manager: which is a nice kind of user interface: Yeah it's sorta like a joystick . project manager: is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ? user interface: I guess project manager: 'Cause like kind of industrial designer: We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits . project manager: Or like even user interface: Dif industrial designer: We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough . project manager: And you could like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part . project manager: But it do we have any other ideas about that ? marketing: user interface: We could tr I don't know . Batteries easy to insert for some reason , industrial designer: marketing: which can be easily I think that's not a problem any more . project manager: The batteries are going in the back ? industrial designer: That everyone gave that a one or a two . project manager: The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip industrial designer: No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door , project manager: no you could Just like any other one . industrial designer: So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: so I can't think of any So we'll have to like . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like , industrial designer: It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape . project manager: I guess we're supposed to discuss the prod the process of the project and how satisfied oh , oh it's alright . marketing: It's alright yeah ? project manager: Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of industrial designer: Sure . marketing: user interface: The prototype making was very creatively stimulating industrial designer: user interface: and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria . project manager: And how was our leadership and teamwork ? industrial designer: I think it was good . industrial designer: Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters . project manager: Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: yeah , I thought we all worked very well together . user interface: Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like I don't know , all had ideas about it but project manager: Yeah . marketing: project manager: and the means for like the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard , industrial designer: project manager: we used industrial designer: Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff . project manager: Are you a Mac person ? industrial designer: No no I never touch Macs either . marketing: industrial designer: I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things . Well the problem is if you don't like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . user interface: I felt like my I dunno if it was just my role , but l but I di I thought that my the information that was available to me was kind of just like or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda it was kinda like okay , I don't really think I dunno what I'm doing here . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations , project manager: Yeah . user interface: But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , think it's kinda stupid . project manager: It industrial designer: My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works . marketing: I though it was brilliant no ? project manager: Really ? user interface: marketing: No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think . user interface: So like a f marketing: I think it depends on the role project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: no ? project manager: 'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like they'd put send you to sites and stuff right ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like industrial designer: project manager: you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things , marketing: project manager: 'cause I industrial designer: Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control . marketing: a whole system , industrial designer: marketing: 'cause of course they can't give you anything comparable to the internet for the project manager: Yeah . user interface: Yeah , it industrial designer: Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and marketing: Yeah , yeah . user interface: Yeah I kinda thought that I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated industrial designer: user interface: because project manager: Yeah . But project manager: Well we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ? industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: So it's industrial designer: If I hadn't been told that fruit was marketing: But I think that it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing . given certain information or Just marketing: Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input project manager: yeah . marketing: what's next ? Looks like oh no that's not project manager: What do you guys think of the pens ? marketing: It's quite project manager: It asks about that . industrial designer: user interface: I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the industrial designer: They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write . project manager: And new ideas found ? industrial designer: marketing: Yeah it's all very new , project manager: Yeah . user interface: I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like . user interface: I think , and I think that all this technology like I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company , user interface: or like I dunno . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . project manager: industrial designer: There's just there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company . industrial designer: And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know . industrial designer: It's like the there's just really not a lot of information that goes through . industrial designer: Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence . industrial designer: I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and project manager: Yeah . user interface: I guess it would be it's gotta be worth it to I 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p a ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: I dunno . project manager: Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? industrial designer: project manager: Any other ideas for marketing: What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ? project manager: we still have time if there's any other input . marketing: Is that the end ? industrial designer: project manager: the I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause we've all we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy <doc-sep>marketing: Hello project manager: like before we I have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: it was discussed in the last meeting which was opened by the presentation from the interface designer that looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: Designer . It should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal features she would like see d d to be integrated in this in this new remote . user interface: project manager: marketing: And she was challenged on that point project manager: that's right . industrial designer: project manager: But her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . She would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . And how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the to the generat to the generator amplification and the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature to to to consider . project manager: She would like this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . The marketing expert who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . From her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . To do that maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . And the decision that we took last time was that the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . industrial designer: and it's it's blue in colour bright and it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: industrial designer: and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: You used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: yeah and the material which we are going to use for the case is plastic and w which which is s strong and also for the the material is plastic and for the buttons it is s soft rubber and als marketing: Oh that's good , industrial designer: yeah . industrial designer: Yeah because you'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . industrial designer: And then for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: Now these features includes the s signal emitting signal it's the led or L_E_D_ the infrared . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: Now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . marketing: The next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: No , swapping is if if example you're you're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . user interface: And at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user's voice and then it'll act accordingly . user interface: give her suggestion whether it'll be sellable or it'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: Okay , well what what I really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: Yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you don't need two hands industrial designer: marketing: and it's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: Yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: The buttons are all raised project manager: Are raised , marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you don't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: Right . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: and I like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . project manager: Yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: Yeah , that's great . project manager: you don't have to g first go like oh yeah here it's on and yeah , the these buttons around here are the mute user interface: No , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . project manager: So if you're left-handed or right-handed it doesn't matter . marketing: And this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: Pardon me ? This is the menu yes , yes . marketing: This brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: A the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: Okay . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: Okay and now I'm supposed to project manager: Well , I have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: Yes , it will have these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . project manager: Will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and doesn't have to first learn it user interface: Yes , which can be easily recognised . marketing: Good point because we need the symbols 'cause we're going into an international market we can't have anything that's language dependent . But anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: That's right . user interface: And and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: Well you know I think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: project manager: Now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: So project manager: That's really the voice recognition that's really unusual marketing: I think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: . project manager: And then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: So I think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image play with the visual and then the voice recognition . project manager: Okay , now having said that marketing: I'm supposed to make a little presentation , aren't I ? project manager: No , now this was our evaluation criteria which we just have done . marketing: Ah , but in my instructions I think it said I was supposed to go to the board and do something . marketing: Can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? Or project manager: Oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: electronics , simple chip on print ? Is that's what we're using ? user interface: Yes . project manager: but , yes but industrial designer: I think that is f for rubbers that is yeah case material . project manager: That's just for the case material , user interface: Is this for the case ? Yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: Oh okay , the - , ' kay . marketing: 'cause we didn't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: No . project manager: button supplement special colour ? user interface: Speci Yes project manager: Special form ? user interface: Yes d we do have special form . user interface: One two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: ? industrial designer: Maybe it is it just n project manager: Eight , eight point two . marketing: Okay , well obviously my method for s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? And I think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we haven't thought of . marketing: We can't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . marketing: And show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we don't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we won't sell any . marketing: And then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it's good , we're gonna get behind it and sell it . Okay , now the things that I was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . I wanted the shape to be biomorphic , I didn't want anything with angles and all square , I wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we've got that . We wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it's gonna be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that's nice . And functionality I put last on my list because people aren't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: So paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel and the shape , that's what people are gonna get in the store . marketing: They don't have a television in the store , they can't play with it . The size is small and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these aren't i in how I feel . I think that it's I think that it's plenty small enough to sell but I think we're sort of right the scale is one to seven . And then functionality I think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we'd disturb something else so I would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . marketing: So I think that basically we've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: And I don't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: Well , we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: Eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: Eight twenty so marketing: And so we've got we've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: We have four euros , yeah project manager: maximum we have another four point three euros four thirty . Well that's project manager: But we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: Well as we know in today's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: I'm sorry to interrupt then but I just recog I just remembered that there was no that that was not included that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: Included , yeah . You wanna go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: well I isn't this my last slide ? project manager: I dunno . and we're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: Why ? Wh why you need that up ? marketing: ? Well because I can't remember what I put on there . Okay user interface: marketing: you're the designer , of course you wanna give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: Colour I marketing: Colour , I gave it a one . marketing: Okay , I gave it a three , two , user interface: I'll give three . marketing: And the next is functionality where I I admit I was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: Well it's also you can't really try it out the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: Yeah . the functionality's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . marketing: But otherwise I think we're we're ready to go to go with this product . Anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: . Is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: We can always improve , yes . I think they are quite big , so I think I we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . Well then again if we're gonna do the speech recognition thing we're gon there gonna be some buttons that are gonna have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . marketing: So that that's where we're gonna have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . marketing: and a couple of other th maybe comp consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: Y al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: user interface: And maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably can't , with this particular item , we probably can't just add a whole lot of more things . project manager: we need you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . project manager: So th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? , are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? I think personally I think I'm pretty happy . marketing: I'm pretty happy with it too , yeah , project manager: an industrial designer: Even I'm happy . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? marketing: I think you've done a good job , Miss leader . project manager: And I think team work I think was very very good , I think we really industrial designer: project manager: And I think we are we happy with the means we used ? We used whiteboard , we didn't use digital p well digital pens I guess are these things . marketing: Yeah maybe we could've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: Whiteboard more , yes , yes . , it's maybe not in the best position in the room you know like sometimes it's positioned so that it's much better visible for everybody and I think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . project manager: I think we we did , in more than one respect and so I think we did very well here . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: So I I thank you all very much . project manager: I always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: Do we do we have some time left ? you have user interface: They say it's forty minutes . project manager: Ah yes we have time later marketing: But we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . marketing: It'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace <doc-sep>I actually tried to transfer it to My Documents , but marketing: Yeah , you have to you have to close that window . marketing: project manager: Yeah , but I've ta marketing: project manager: right , I'll just re-do it . user interface: it's a bit more fun , isn't it ? And it's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like Apple Mac . What's this this one ? user interface: Yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: industrial designer: They're thinking user interface: But , we didn't have anything small enough to write . industrial designer: For the first time , well it was hard to get the h the actual labelling on the individual buttons . industrial designer: Hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: Yeah . And so when I done my thing on cost a I had assumed that the only button that would be a different colour would be the the red apple button . But , yeah so but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: I'll see if I can find them . project manager: and as I suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be open to debate , I suppose . industrial designer: Yeah , sis user interface: Well the colours wouldn't like that's they wouldn't be too important , marketing: Have user interface: but we didn't have any white Play-Doh . marketing: project manager: Right , okay so And the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: Yes , we'll have the slide-away . So So , we've got prototype presentation , which we've just done , evaluation criteria , and finance , so I guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various aspects that we're looking for from our previous meeting . user interface: project manager: So other than the fact that it doesn't have the second layer , but obviously obviously it would . We got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: Yes , yes . project manager: and whether it would marketing: So if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: This this is a user interface: that's it . marketing: That's the pr project manager: Right , so as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first considerations was to be in d under twelve fifty or two and a half twelve and a half Euros . So that should Right , so , seems to me that the thing that I have to do is is quickly find that industrial designer: Could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . marketing: Do you wanna plu do you wanna plug it in into the the back of that one . So , sh marketing: We could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: Okay , so , by the fact that we've got the simple chip and the kinetic energy source , we've got a single curved case . industrial designer: project manager: Well , originally , I thought there would just be one in there because it was the one red apple . But industrial designer: project manager: So the so the real w the real question then would come in . Do you make all the buttons marketing: Well do we'll do it on the prototype , project manager: O marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: We've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: And then we'd have project manager: so , I was originally , I was thinking rubber wasn't special , marketing: project manager: So And the r effectively we've got sixteen buttons that we're gonna have on there . I think you just do one , don't you , for the project manager: W I don't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore , what's the op The option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: I think I think it's just it's just a one . Else project manager: Whereas it would be the special colour would be for the So you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: I thi I think I think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: Okay , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , I guess . project manager: And when I plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . project manager: And if What happened ? marketing: You've just gone off the window into another one . user interface: Maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . user interface: project manager: Okay , so , but the point would be that if we if we just did special Sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . industrial designer: So that's nine point one there so we've got some project manager: So it Well , is it s is no , it's nine point seven I've got . industrial designer: Just give us a bit of project manager: So , that would that would work out fine if as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . project manager: And there's nothing else as far as I can see that we we had planned to put on . user interface: S marketing: industrial designer: I switching around those th on the electronics we got the sample sensor . industrial designer: I guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: We should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: Yeah . , if we Okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: So maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: But remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: Oh , I see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . D wouldn't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? You know how you turn that one to a zero , wouldn't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: Yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: Oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . industrial designer: We should Yeah , that would save us one , though we'd still be slightly ov project manager: But you reckon that i the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . Well , since it's the through the whole technology type thing , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . , whether they would figure the the s sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not You know what ? The the problem was the battery's running out and losing the losing the remote . project manager: But which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? In a sense , at the moment , we've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . The other option if we're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to make it originally , we're gonna make it a simple product . marketing: Shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: So , we've all got a note of it's thirteen point seven , isn't it , with everything we want on . Sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: Yeah , I just had a presentation to do . user interface: But I do think the v voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it's got no battery . project manager: Okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . Right okay , This is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we've got here . user interface: marketing: And so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we've formulated . And those ones are gonna be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , I guess . And do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it's neither true nor false , then that's four . So , I got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . so , We have to say whether it's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . So if we do a sort of a one So industrial designer: Okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product's quite good . industrial designer: then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: Of but I think What Is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: One's true . user interface: Yeah , 'cause we haven't got the double curve , so we can't like say it's completely true . So , false is seven , true is one , and So say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: Yeah . Well , it's just that saying something remember that when you look down , we've got solar power , we've got various other things you could have , and we're not going for these options . marketing: Yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: Okay . And , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: deciding between the kinetic power or the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . So , what about the pr The prototype as it is , industrial designer: marketing: we've got we've got the speech recognition on it , haven't we . marketing: Alright , so project manager: Didn't you ? Or marketing: So it doesn't It's pretty The prototype as it is isn't sort of fulfilling the industrial designer: No may is maybe about neutral user interface: Maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it's got something , but it hasn't got marketing: Okay . project manager: The problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . And if you're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'Kay . project manager: the other functions we've got in are are more at the The special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that's at the high end 'cause that's point six , whereas down at just special colours is point two . Now you're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you're going for the sample sensors speaker , you're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . project manager: And and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: project manager: and then you're looking to take out point two , marketing: S I'm just gonna check my email . user interface: How much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? Because we did say that we don't wanna follow the fashion too much . You could either you could have it If you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you'd be looking to take out point two . So you could fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: So it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: Yeah . project manager: Ye marketing: I just read the email again and it sort of says it's evaluate the design sort of as it is , I think , so I think we need to think about finance after we've sort of evaluated that design . project manager: Well , okay , but user interface: Well , I suppose it's rubber as it is , isn't it . marketing: So , does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we've got both the both the the speech project manager: We got we've we've got thirteen point seven user interface: Yeah . project manager: and we've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we're going to reduce down from that . project manager: But the current one , you'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . , for for innovation , so we've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: industrial designer: Yeah , m user interface: Maybe two ? industrial designer: Yeah , it was just doing it quite well . industrial designer: I think we're gonna have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it's project manager: Yeah , I woulda said two would seem reasonable . project manager: The product is a recognisable real r reaction product ? marketing: Yeah , this is industrial designer: the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: This project manager: industrial designer: and it's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . So this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: Does it fit in with our other other products , which are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: S user interface: marketing: user interface: well it's got the same speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: What do y industrial designer: Also it's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . So we're going for a two , marketing: So industrial designer: Maybe a kind of three ? d project manager: three ? user interface: Yeah , two or three . marketing: Two or three ? user interface: Well , the logo would be more recognisable on the actual thing . project manager: So we're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: Yeah . user interface: What does what do all them numbers mean then ? Do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: Yeah we s yeah , I think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gonna be I'm just gonna do this in my head . industrial designer: Yeah , so it's marketing: So So it's it's pretty good at the moment , but it's gonna get worse , isn't it . industrial designer: So should we get So are definite Was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: Do you wanna plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: Okay , well I put it back on . industrial designer: So I guess this Is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: I'm not sure . project manager: Okay , so what was it , control F_ eight , wasn't it ? user interface: Ah it's on . So , you can see there that the If you want to keep kinetic , right , you've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . industrial designer: Oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: That's right . Yeah , I was I was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . project manager: Okay , so industrial designer: And that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . So we'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: So we're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: Lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: Yep . industrial designer: Oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: And then industrial designer: Yeah , that's that's within the budget . Do we actually have Do we just have one special special forms down here ? project manager: Well , w there was debate as to how you would count them . industrial designer: project manager: Well originally I was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: And we we've we've got we've got enough for another user interface: Yeah , I think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: so we've got enough for another project manager: Well , we've got special form . Now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'Cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: Yeah , project manager: So so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: But the but but but the project manager: The other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: I think maybe the special colour , we've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: I guess we'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . industrial designer: Yeah , which I think we should Yeah , they'll still be fine for the for the price . marketing: Well I thin I think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it's just two supplements , you know . The one colour's gonna be moulded out of a piece of plas of rubber , isn't it . project manager: The rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be You were making these buttons down the bottom , I was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? Was that the idea ? industrial designer: Ne user interface: Yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . user interface: marketing: Okay , so tha industrial designer: So I think that should still be okay . industrial designer: So decide we've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: Yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we've kept the other attributes to the project manager: I woulda said so . marketing: So shall we do a Well , industrial designer: And specially it definitely could fits the the real product What was the what's the company name ? project manager: Real Reaction produ user interface: Real Reactions ? industrial designer: R yeah . user interface: industrial designer: it still seems definitely fit that p so that's like if that's the new age kind of inno innovative c type company , then having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: Yeah , so project manager: Yep I would s marketing: So it's w if we've if we've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . That would be poss seeing as seeing as it's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we've got , you know , we've made it a a special form , so project manager: You mean of industrial designer: marketing: And that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . And it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: Well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: So next year you could make next year's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . project manager: Yeah , we've the main thing we've changed really is the casing isn't it ? marketing: Is it industrial designer: That yeah , that was marketing: The rubber . industrial designer: I think we've saved quite a bit because we've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . industrial designer: So maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: But industrial designer: I dunno . marketing: So , we've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . So maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: And everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: Well , ease has certainly stayed . And what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: well we've still got the kinetic energy . We've maybe lost Hasn't it It's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: How it would play out , yeah . Whether whether that's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , I don't know . industrial designer: But I think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: But either way , I think we've made it fairly close to what marketing: Yeah . Okay , well user interface: Yeah , I don't see how we could make it any more . , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . user interface: But then what colour would you make the R_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . project manager: Well , but you've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . marketing: Hey , what what what's the company colour ? Did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: I'm still not quite sure we've established that . user interface: I just project manager: But but i but in the sense that , as you saw with the Windows logo badge , it doesn't really matter . user interface: project manager: There's virtually n The way that you frame , you know , the Windows badge on there , it really doesn't matter what colour it is , marketing: . project manager: so long as our company's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . So basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you've got effectively a double edging on the on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . 'Cause you've got sort of we've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . marketing: Or would that be t project manager: Well , we decided that the blue ones were the the standard colour . project manager: So you were talking about We're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: marketing: Shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: Well , yeah . Bu but but was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: I don't think they would really need to be . industrial designer: Yeah , maybe we've m user interface: Needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: Maybe for the the one they're gonna see all the time , we make it look good , and , fit the kind of idea of what they want . industrial designer: And then for the more functional buttons , we don't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it's hidden away anyway , you're not gonna see it at the start . it's the sort of thing that , you wanna pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: Yeah , well marketing: So , if it's dead obvious , then that's fine . But if you're opening the panel and you're looking and you're tuning , then you're paying a bit more attention . user interface: Shouldn't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'Cause we've lost the overall spongy feel . project manager: marketing: Well , but I think we said that w Because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit shape on one of the buttons . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: Did we decide what that was , which button it was ? On the volume ones ? marketing: I think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: Did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? Or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: You had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: So what bit are we on to ? user interface: can I just check if that's a cherry or an apple ? Did we decide against the apple because of Apple Mac ? And did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: Yeah . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: Oh drats , I've botched that , haven't I . user interface: So were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: Well , we're aiming for one for all of them . marketing: M but it really has to fit into the budget , so I guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the Which is fair enough . Yeah , I think industrial designer: As an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we've just about achieved everything . What's on the agenda ? project manager: Right , okay What's happened here ? Right , okay . So we got So we've done the the finance bit and the Excel project and the We've done the redesign . Now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . So , we're actually now , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . project manager: I suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which I will do . Well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: In you on your own . marketing: and they didn't the one meeting didn't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: marketing: and I don't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you'd do that . You know , you'd sort of you'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: The only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . So industrial designer: Yeah , I suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: Yeah . project manager: Whereas , this time , you're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . project manager: Anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: I've put , seemed okay . industrial designer: Is this go It kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: You have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: But think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . From the website it looks it's quite innovative , but we're coming up with some bucket shop product aren't we user interface: marketing: that's , you know , fifteen quid . Like , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: I th I d industrial designer: I don't know how it works but I guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: But the other thing is that they're I'm guessing that they're trying to use this software to to demonstrate how you could do a project . project manager: for you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . project manager: So what she's doing is she's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can ask whatever question . And then you or the idea is that the whichever person's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or or or come back , or go and see Joe Bloggs , or whatever . So , and that was a project I suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the computer software to enable to enable it to work . if you look at their products on their website here , Real Reaction , it's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . So project manager: Does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: You've got voice recognition computers , marketing: yeah . Okay , industrial designer: Yeah , so it's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . marketing: I don't think sort of the budget allowed us to do anything project manager: Bit bit arbitrary . marketing: Well , I don't think it I just don't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . , they've got all these sort of , you know , high definition D_V_D_ and portable seven inch d lightweight computer screens , project manager: marketing: and I'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control doesn't really fit in . project manager: So , we're m we're meant to comment on leadership and the means , E_ G_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: Surely they they should produ project manager: And and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: But we can't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the Project Manager . project manager: Now , I'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but I certainly didn't get this computer to work as well as I would have liked . marketing: project manager: However , Alright means , so whiteboard so really , it's equipment . marketing: Comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: But , I d I don't I'm not sure I see the value in these . , they record what you're writing , and then what do you do with it ? Where do you get the recording ? Do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: I think there's a little there's a little chi industrial designer: So it's not just for us , it's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: There's a little there's a little chip , I think you must plug it into something industrial designer: Should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: Sh user interface: Right . Whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you've written or something , and Page after page . project manager: and voice marketing: project manager: was it voice activated marketing: Voice recognition , yeah . marketing: To fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: Right , so , are the costs within budget , marketing: Oh no . Is that everything ? marketing: ? I think that we've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . , so we don't re So really I tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it didn't seem to have saved anywhere

The Project Manager's leadership style was a topic of discussion among the team members. While the Project Manager himself felt that his leadership was lacking, the Industrial Designer believed that he provided clear direction on when to start and end tasks, which is crucial for effective leadership. The User Interface team thought that the Project Manager did a good job because the team had a democratic process with no set roles. The Marketing team added that everyone blended well together. Overall, the team members agreed that the Project Manager did a good job in leadership. During the meeting, the team used a whiteboard, but they felt that they could have utilized it more. The team mostly relied on slides, as they were better positioned. However, the User Interface team pointed out that not all team members could fairly comment on leadership since the Project Manager was the leader and had more experience in that role compared to others.

What was the overall feedback on leadership, teamwork, and evaluation methods during the project?

marketing: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: No , no . Not all the small buttons , you don't know project manager: Is this positive or negative , that big buttons ? industrial designer: Big buttons , positive . industrial designer: All all small buttons like when you have like a hundred buttons on your remote control , you won't know what they're working for . What are your experiences ? user interface: well I think the the the goal of a remote control is that it's it it has an influence on the T_V_ set . And I I I think it's positive if there's a a LED a LED on the corner of the of the remote . And that if you push the button the LED gives a light , and and you see that it's working . project manager: So and do they always have that ? user interface: Yeah , but No no no . marketing: at home we have a T_V_ , a video recorder , a D_V_D_ player , and a satellite receiver . But i it it had a lot of buttons on it , and you didn't know which one was what . So what ideas do you have for it , for the new remote control ? What what does it have to have ? industrial designer: The weight . industrial designer: When you push a but a button on the T_V_ , then you hear some some sort of bleep . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah I think it from a marketing point of view , it also has to look nice . So you don't won't have to change the batteries once a week or once every two weeks <doc-sep>I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting , but I've prepared a little presentation once again or at least an agenda I think the biggest part of the presentation will be on your side . once again I will try to write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting placed inside our project folder , which was quite some typing . today we once again have three presentations , if I'm right , and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts . Okay , well industrial designer: project manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: Components design , first of all I would like to accommodate some of those things I elaborate some of the things I did . What should be said about the components , its properties and what kind of materials should we use to to make one of those r remote controls . well first of all I've d subtracted some of the components that is that are used are w w you know from what the remote control's formed . There's one of the because when you use a remote control a lot of people will will drop their remote control marketing: Drop it . titanium you have to paint it and with that it's possible to scratch it or yeah make it ugly . rubber the total piece of rubber that's sor that's that's used to make the case is the same colour , so if you scratch it it's still the same colour , perhaps it's a little bit damaged . I think it's it's best to draw oh user interface: It's a colour . user interface: industrial designer: So you get it doesn't lay flat down on the table , but it's c it's stands . industrial designer: Side view yes it's side view so I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling , user interface: industrial designer: but . marketing: industrial designer: it's just an idea I had so it's it's very so its also looks nice when it's on the table . I thought about the L_C_D_ touch screen , which is is easy to clean too . One of the great advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some or another cleaning cl some cleaning stuff . Well I already s explained some properties of that material and I think well we also we almost concluded about that this should be our button component . the batteries , we also thought about that already , will be chargeable with an option for a mount station so you can put the the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of plugging it in or something like that . industrial designer: And they should be long lasting , not not be empty in about two minutes or thirty minutes or forty minutes of use . And next step is the chip th the component that's makes or transmits the signal to the television . there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think because of our highly requiring requirements , there should be an advanced chip in it user interface: industrial designer: with also the ability to facilitate speaker speech recognition which unfortunately is still in a test phase , so there should be some more investigation on that side . my personal preferences I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use our own business colours . user interface: project manager: Well , business colours I thought it was the the slogan and the corporate image , so yeah , it needs colour , industrial designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind , project manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour . industrial designer: wasn't it ? Okay so it d it doesn't says to have the slogan ? project manager: It must be recognisable . so they are pretty boring , I suggest , because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours and also in a lot of possible colours , so it's possible to make very fancy remote controls which peopl who people in which people will find they're interesting . s as I said before rubber is is impossible to damage severely imp instead of of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that , but i if you drop it it's not broken right away s instead of using plastic , hard plastic or titanium . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: Alright so industrial designer: user interface: I thought a little bit about the interface . And we determined that will not be no buttons , but only an L_C_D_ screen , so I had to look on that . And so that it you say good morning , coffee maker , and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name . user interface: This and there's an easy way to program that you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer . industrial designer: user interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like industrial designer: Oh my God . I don't know if there is an icon for the program , but industrial designer: Not just a P_ . user interface: and then the buttons above and below marketing: user interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon . marketing: Where's where's the button for two ? user interface: I forgot that one . industrial designer: user interface: And and the numbers , that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth . And I thought the the button for teletext apar apart because it's not really options , I think . It's options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of thing . Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should , so that it's better in your hand or something . industrial designer: Oh okay , user interface: But and and a microph microphone for the speech recognition if we want to implement that . user interface: and then if you press the op options button , now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this . user interface: And it's also I thought think we discussed earlier that older people don't really want to use these extra settings . And older people a also don't really want to use this th this kind of option menus . So they want to u use one button and then something happens , and not choose with this kind of And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your remote , project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: Okay , I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching . The trends from the past years , what the people like , what the youngsters like , what the elderly people liked about shapes , colours , material and stuff . The method I used was Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours , shapes , material they wanted from elderly and young people . The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative , okay , like the L_C_D_ screen that's quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this . I think with only one menu , four button , channel , volume , it should also be enough for easy to use . The personal preferences for the young people , they liked fruity colours like banana yellow , strawberry red and stuff . industrial designer: marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like woods dark brown , red , deep reds and stuff . This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours , innovative , all the colours you see , the blue , the red , the white , the yellow , that stuff . And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like project manager: Oh y marketing: this or something . Because we decided to have two kind of remotes , two designs , or was it two colours ? user interface: It was one remote , I think , marketing: Different colours , yeah . I think like my colleague , you said , is that's e better , or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something , with round squares . marketing: That is my Yeah , like the older o older colours I can maybe user interface: You could you could change the colours , that was also the idea . marketing: Colours th the elderly people project manager: Yeah , I guess changing colours will be easier than changing user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , s project manager: industrial designer: round corners , but s but square , yeah . project manager: user interface: i i if you do it square , with round corners but a little in the middle of it i Do you know what ? industrial designer: Yeah I know what you mean , kind of like a . But that's industrial designer: It's also easy to to have to to put in your hand . user interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped , so that's But perhaps that's a good thing , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Yeah , kinda like old cars , marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance , medieval kind of things . project manager: marketing: So Sorry ? user interface: That's easy to do with the colours , I think . In material yeah rubber , rubber is , like I said , young people like more soft materials and spongy ones industrial designer: marketing: and the old people like plain wood . marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber , or soft rubber . user interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it , marketing: Or user interface: but industrial designer: It should shouldn't be . user interface: did you have something about marketing: Are you going to invite Sponge Bob , maybe he can industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it , marketing: user interface: and can decide . industrial designer: I also s can't help but notice that you used an you had a remote control user interface: industrial designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was rather small . marketing: Yeah user interface: Yeah marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like user interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit industrial designer: .. marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is industrial designer: new , blank . So when you get this user interface: marketing: user interface: Ooh industrial designer: kinda like this . industrial designer: Larger ? Because you want to put your hands user interface: But if you pu marketing: Yeah user interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen . industrial designer: You want marketing: becau because you have user interface: Perhaps that's best . industrial designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself , you'll you'll always get some user interface: You always touch it , industrial designer: You user interface: yeah . marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much ? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen . marketing: One to zero , the two digit , industrial designer: Yeah you don't want it too small . How yeah how large marketing: You have to you have to Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time . But if you wanna make it in international , Japanese people got rather small hands marketing: Yeah true , industrial designer: and we got these large marketing: but Yeah , we have we have the zoom option , right ? industrial designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course , yeah . user interface: Y you could include a pen industrial designer: You don't want marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Because if you lose the pen if you lose the pen you can't use marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen . project manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that marketing: Yeah the fingers , yeah . project manager: and industrial designer: user interface: Yeah I think this this is a good size for the screen . I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this , or something . project manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers , huh . Yeah , project manager: Okay well marketing: you can buy those at project manager: maybe , if I can interrupt you , maybe I should should show some points on which we should take a decision . How how should we supply the thing with energy and how are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put in it . marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries project manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting . marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead industrial designer: I kinda like your marketing: then you can re you can change them . user interface: not not like two or two marketing: Yeah , normal plain you No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop . what was with the chip on print ? industrial designer: The chip on print ? you gotta f Yeah . Didn't we ? project manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen ? You still have a print plate . industrial designer: Beg your pardon ? marketing: You always have a print plate , project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: It just was in there industrial designer: Well project manager: and I didn't have any information about it , industrial designer: chip on print , I think what they mean with the regular rubber buttons that you got , it's always clear for the remote control when you press a certain button . industrial designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen , with no with not the buttons are not always on the same place , marketing: Yeah , okay . But industrial designer: for example if you enlarge a button , or if you got several options appearing on your screen , the co-ordinations aren't always the same . industrial designer: When you got a regular button , th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the marketing: Yeah okay , but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: I don't I dunno I don't think that's industrial designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_ . industrial designer: Yeah because it has to b marketing: Yeah , it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen . industrial designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just you just want to turn up the volume . industrial designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_ user interface: industrial designer: to know in which state you are and which button you are pressing in at the right moment . user interface: industrial designer: And a touch screen makes it possible to to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen . industrial designer: And the case , yeah we already discussed the case , user interface: It's rubber . industrial designer: we wanted to make it from rubber user interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this ? industrial designer: and user interface: Or softer rubber or industrial designer: hard rubber I think . user interface: Yeah yeah this in different colours ? industrial designer: D marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes ? No I don't think , I think it's more round than square . marketing: Lower than forty years , I think industrial designer: Well and how about my idea of making it with one single curve ? marketing: it was . industrial designer: So i marketing: Oh yeah that that I think I thought that was a quite good user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off , of course . project manager: So industrial designer: Because it marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: you don't have to put it get it in your hand , you can put it next to you industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: So , so marketing: So project manager: Okay so industrial designer: you got user interface: And then industrial designer: Did you write that down ? got a single curved rubber f fancy coloured remote control . user interface: marketing: You can't you You can't oh , you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: It's pretty easy but And marketing: And load it on the the user the server . project manager: What about the user interface , there are also some some questions about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that . At least what we should also have on , I just remembered , a menu to go back through the first if if you touch options , you can't go back to this right away now . user interface: This marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal ? user interface: I don't know . user interface: I think it's marketing: I think it's easier than user interface: I don't know . user interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical ? marketing: For sound and channel . If you make it in a rectangle user interface: Right well if we make it like this , I think if you marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: I so it's it's it's it's user interface: put it like this industrial designer: Square . marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like Oh a button minus here , plus over here . marketing: The options and then you have something like the P_ over here , user interface: But I think I wou industrial designer: marketing: and the sound . user interface: but I think when you are holding it , you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus . marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb . industrial designer: W user interface: I don't know industrial designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then . user interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples industrial designer: user interface: 'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used . Volume selection four times an hour user interface: Yeah but But if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote . So not how much n not how often it's used , but marketing: user interface: W what's what's usual or normal . industrial designer: user interface: I think it's it's a marketing: I think because I have two televisions at home . user interface: I think the the the volume was usually above each other , because you go higher and down . user interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other , because you would go further and back . industrial designer: user interface: That's how it's is usually when I look here marketing: True . project manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons user interface: I don't know . user interface: This concept is in the actual design , but you should know where you would place a industrial designer: Okay , well le Yeah . user interface: And the speech shall we implement that ? Or project manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new technology , huh ? industrial designer: Technologies , . marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that , where are you , but then it says I'm here . user interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something . industrial designer: because a lotta you can make a very sensitive microphone , so it makes it possible to just put it arou underneath it or on the on the bottom of the remote . project manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important project manager: Yeah , yeah . industrial designer: Ah okay , sure , okay , user interface: Right ? industrial designer: well tha marketing: I think where it isn't seen industrial designer: Underneath ? Indeed . project manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out marketing: I i between the round of the R_ . project manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it , marketing: Yeah . project manager: because it is the the unique idea of our remote , huh , the the speech control . project manager: Well maybe where the one hand industrial designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it any more fancy because you get to see user interface: Yeah actually it does because it you can you can find it better if you use it . project manager: But are we talking about the button , or about the microphone ? user interface: About a microphone , project manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing , user interface: there is no button . project manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote . Yeah , well we already s discussed that , huh , the the L_C_D_ industrial designer: The L_C_D_ yeah , project manager: and user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: supplements well the supplement is to marketing: I think I thought the , like you said , like scroll next to the remote isn't that handy . marketing: I think it's better to just up what you'd like to do on the screen . If you want to go back you have to back button go back , industrial designer: user interface: Yeah . marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu . user interface: Or at least Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll , but the menu they like most , and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll industrial designer: Fast , yeah . So if you've got a settings , if you marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster . Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options , industrial designer: Yes . marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then user interface: But you have it's f industrial designer: You have a lot of options , user interface: we have five or four or something . industrial designer: because when you use Yeah you get w when you use the settings menu for example to look up some some channels on your on your television , you should scroll scroll down on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen . project manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . No , colours are clear , project manager: Everybody think they can can marketing: shape is clear , material is clear . industrial designer: Okay , what's the standard colour ? project manager: work for that ? marketing: And a standard , project manager: Is there a standard colour ? marketing: yeah we don't industrial designer: I I marketing: no we have different colour . industrial designer: You got you got different colours , marketing: How many colours are we going to user interface: You should you should have a black one industrial designer: but you should have a standard colour . industrial designer: Black ? With the with the yellow user interface: But if you want to be different , then marketing: Dark grey , something like this this colour or something . project manager: silver is new but also traditional , so marketing: I think we have silver , black and between those is like I dunno s five colours between them or something . project manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing , it industrial designer: Yeah y I think it's better to marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow , we have . project manager: Yeah I would think about colours like red , yellow , green , blue , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: just marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours , like red and brown , dark red and brown . project manager: Okay , so user interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one , or project manager: Who's pinging ? user interface: Is it project manager: You are pingin marketing: No . project manager: Okay , so that wraps it up ? Everybody knows what to do ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: Well I don't know what to do , industrial designer: Well not what to do . project manager: and especially notice that the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board , user interface: Ooh . marketing: S project manager: and of course to all four of us specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach . user interface: But do we have to We'll work together , but do we have to stay here , or do we project manager: Well I I'd say just wait for email and find out <doc-sep>user interface: project manager: and , I'll be taking minutes on this one , and Being hooked up to the PowerPoint for this meeting isn't very necessary for myself , because it'll be more about , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . 'Cause I was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . industrial designer: so I was looking at how we're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . And it needs to allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . , from , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there're certain points that will make our product unique . And we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we're using a mobile phone , or something fam familiar . Or we could use fluorescent materials which would just take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . So if we lost the remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . , another thing I think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . , from previous researches I've carried out on other projects , we've learnt about smart materials where specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: So they can be heated and and cooled , and they change the shape of the metal . So , for example , a screw that's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . So , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , everything would spring apart . So , all the individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and I think that would be very important for products now . Especially 'cause there's much responsibility for all the companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'Cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: So that , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: And then Yeah . Yeah they would , you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it's the product's responsibility to get rid of what they've made . , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gonna wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . Something like the case , if it's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . Would we be the company that would break down these , or metals ? Or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: You could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . industrial designer: but project manager: One thing we have to consider is our one hundred percent turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . project manager: so we'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: Well I the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they don't need to be manually de deconstructed . industrial designer: So I suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: Alright . project manager: I'm sorry , could you industrial designer: There we go project manager: Those were industrial designer: . , an' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . industrial designer: Okay ? So , now is it F_ eight again to escape ? Or escape ? There we go . Can you see ? marketing: Oh , user interface: Do you think Is it , function eight yeah ? project manager: Yeah . , in this case it's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . By taking inspiration from other similar designs , we'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . A single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . user interface: I think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it's easier to use . , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . And probably more sellable just because it's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . Does anyone have any questions ? marketing: So as far as we know , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: Well , it's just that , when we're creating it , we're , we have to make it compatible with different brands of devices . user interface: And it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: D_V_D_s and V_C_R_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: Right . project manager: Does everyone agree with this ? Does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: I was just wondering about the , what , what Genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . And that would probably , I d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . Do you think ? marketing: Yeah , I think I agree with the single design thing for now , because we're trying to do so much , that if we're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it's also multi also multifunctional , we're gonna go over budget for one thing . project manager: Alright , well , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation Genevieve ? marketing: Yes I am . Except you're not hooked up to the marketing: Oh , user interface: marketing: I'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? The functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . , I've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , and some internet research . project manager: I'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . marketing: Any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: . marketing: you know who's famous , what T_V_ shows are being watched , industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: marketing: the other twenty five percent didn't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . project manager: I'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . You mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: Yeah , they're willing , they're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . marketing: As opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . project manager: And another thing with lots of surfing , we'd probably have to work on something that could be a lot more durable , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: because I find with channel-changers that , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they're printed on the button . marketing: And actually to go with that , I'm gonna give you some statistics on the relevancy of the buttons , how much they're used . , so obviously when commercials come on they're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that's not gonna run down . user interface: It has T_V_ has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . marketing: So like a running banner , underneath project manager: No it's a button that you press , and then you , like a menu pops up . industrial designer: It's like user interface: And you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it'll come up . industrial designer: Yeah , it's just information that , like television timetables , what's on , what's on now , what's on next , on every channel , and marketing: Right . Well I guess I'm not with it , because I wasn't But it's , it's being used fourteen times an hour . So it looks like something that we're gonna want to do some research on and include on our remote control . You know if you get a new T_V_ set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: To get the right reception and picture , I suppose . marketing: Is that what it is ? People with arthritis and such ? project manager: That's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: maybe our industrial designer: Oh , I'm guessing that's what it is . marketing: But we'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . Ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s Interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . So I guess we're gonna have to figure out what age group we're , we're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wanna look into . project manager: I agree with if we're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . project manager: and especially if we are trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . project manager: ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably won't be as concerned . I don't know if it'd be , if we'd still have a remote , or if you're talking to your television and saying change channel . marketing: So it m it may be too complicated for us , but it's something to keep in mind anyway . industrial designer: And if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: although in theory it doesn't tend to be when you're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific design . project manager: We need to decide if that is our intention is , is a simplistic design . project manager: because if , if it is then I think voice , voice-activated marketing: It looks like project manager: Yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they won't be using a , they won't be talking into a remote , I'm sure . an L_C_D_ screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this PowerPoint is working . industrial designer: What , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: I have no idea still . marketing: now that's , I , I dunno exactly what exactly we'd put on there . Could it it It would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . But that would probably be industrial designer: Like linked in with the teletext , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: marketing: Well I guess that's something we can all take back to our respective research . Every remote control looks the same , so in my opinion it should be , user-friendly and unique . user interface: marketing: So if we're , if we're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: . if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . But if we wanna make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . user interface: And we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five Euros to spend on a remote control . Like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they're just starting out marketing: you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah I'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that's three months allowance . marketing: so I I think , I think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . And if one of the largest , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: Twenties . project manager: I'm sure that something like an L_C_D_ screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . Before we go into more discussion on we want this design to look like , I've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . , for one thing , because Having controls with D_V_D_ , V_C_R_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . , we've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television function . Which is good as , as we've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . Another thing that might affect other decisions is that the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . industrial designer: Were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: well , we don't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: Yeah . This is for the design , the design of the product is that we wanna create , more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . So , all the remote controls must have our We'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . project manager: So , perhaps our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . project manager: it doesn't have to be the colour of our of our company industrial designer: Just project manager: but , another thing is that , industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . , I'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting I , I wasn't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . , so , now we need to discuss , and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . industrial designer: marketing: Okay , so I Are we going to write off the L_C_D_ option ? industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: I think it would be annoying though if I don't use teletext that much , but if it was on your T_V_ , you'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: Yeah , but another thing is that if we're reaching an international crowd , I know for one that in North America there is no such thing as teletext , so it'd be really superfluous . project manager: Do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: I don't know . industrial designer: But if Was it a management decision that we're having project manager: It was a management decision , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: so it's , it's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: Minimal marketing: And the What was the word they used ? F findability is important . project manager: 'Cause I'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: Yeah . user interface: Would you be able to , put the little device anywhere ? 'Cause isn't our remote control for all T_V_s , so industrial designer: If user interface: you'd ha industrial designer: Do you mean the the link between the user interface: Yeah , with the button that you pressed . user interface: C 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one T_V_ set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . project manager: Yeah , it would have t industrial designer: Maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be yeah not very obtrusive . Then it wouldn't , it probably wouldn't be able to use It would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control I guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . user interface: Would it need a battery then ? project manager: Maybe , industrial designer: Pr probably . industrial designer: Unless it could be project manager: That's your department you'll have to sort that out . , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the T_V_'s supplied from . project manager: Yeah , you'll have to industrial designer: So , more research into that one . project manager: Yeah , you'll have to investi Do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: Yeah . , alright , and I'm sure that , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , is a go ahead . Is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: Y marketing: On the buttons ? user interface: I I like the light up suggestion . user interface: 'Cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: it doesn't user interface: I would go for marketing: It could it could be a tactile thing as well . right , if w if we're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . industrial designer: Like a raised marketing: and I don't know what we could do for , for channels . S user interface: Well just the numbers could be embossed , couldn't it ? Like raised . user interface: Just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: Yeah marketing: Yeah . marketing: I just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . project manager: But industrial designer: And also y , Heather you mentioned before , like how it should be accessible to everybody . industrial designer: So like you say tactile might be better , because it'd be more available to everybody . Could we somehow We could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . project manager: 'Cause I d I don't think that glow-in-the-dark material , like the actual soft plastic , costs that much more than other colours . marketing: I guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you're s and then it goes , industrial designer: Yeah . I know , I'm thinking of mostly when you're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . marketing: And you don't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there's suddenly an explosion , and it's gonna wake up the baby . industrial designer: I project manager: for the meeting , but I think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . What were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: Oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell You know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . marketing: if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it's touched again . marketing: Yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: So , self-timed marketing: So if you have all the lights off in your living room , you'll , you'll temporarily see it . project manager: So , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? Do we have to kind of decide what we're gonna do with this . And as you're saying like numbers can wear off if they're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . And it could , if it's that softer rubber material it'll be , maybe , better for people with els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what's it called , R_S_I_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: Oh yeah . , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: project manager: Or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: If project manager: Like should we do both ? Or we can have one or the other ? Because it might , for , for our design purposes , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . industrial designer: Yeah , and we could marketing: whereas we're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: Yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: So industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . industrial designer: or like we've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: Right . user interface: I was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the Real Reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . And do you have anything marketing: What project manager: Do you have anything to say ? marketing: Oh sorry . So I I dunno if there's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . I dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . Interchangeable thing ? marketing: Yeah , project manager: Like an iPod or something ? user interface: That would be good . marketing: And I dunno if we'd want to go with like T_V_ show themes or something . user interface: Yeah , and then that would be more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . You could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: als project manager: You'd just get one mould , user interface: No . industrial designer: Interchan And also possible , we could gain out of that by advertising certain T_V_ shows , or project manager: Yeah . project manager: So , if it takes off then we'll , we'll , we'll try that out . project manager: Do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: I've project manager: Because we need to investigate the financial implications . Is it industrial designer: Let's project manager: Does it need to be decided on now ? Or should we industrial designer: I think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then <doc-sep> we'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you're doing , what your what your role is . I am Corinne Whiting and I will be the Marketing Expert and in each of the three phases I will have a different role . In the function design phase I will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and I'll be doing research to figure this out . In the conceptual design phase I will be dealing with trend watching and I'll be doing marketing research on the web . And then finally in the detailed design phase I will be doing product evaluation and so I will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . And the detailed design sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , things like fashions , what makes wha how we're gonna make it special . In the functional design phase I'm I'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , we'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . industrial designer: And the detailed design in the detailed design I'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , so we're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . so we've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , acquaintance which we've kinda done . of course we're a not only a electronics company but a fashion conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy and we want it to be easy to use . we've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design which basically is is the three of you . do we have any ideas of of maybe d let's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we're gonna design it and and how we're gonna do the detailing on it . project manager: So we want it to be a T_V_ remote or I do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: Oh right . But , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . user interface: I think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like I don't actually know . But is it just infra-red ? Is that standard ? project manager: I I think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: So if there's a g a way of finding it quite easily , I thought that'd be quite good quite a good feature . Ch project manager: So we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a marketing: Like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: Oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: It makes a noise , user interface: and it'd beep . project manager: there's a button on the T_V_ that you press industrial designer: . industrial designer: So user interface: Generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . user interface: I thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'Kay . industrial designer: Well there are of course certain restrictions , you can't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: Yeah . however one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much . industrial designer: How sturdy is it gonna be ? Do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: Okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: Yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: Yeah . project manager: then it user interface: It could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . What else it what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to be universal . It's something that we're supposed to sell for about twenty five Euros and you know , goals for profits are I think somewhere around fifty million Euros , what they wanna make on it , so . Also since we're partners of the International Remote Control Association , maybe we wanna make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: So marketing , you know , how maybe marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally appealing remote control out there . industrial designer: marketing: And maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'Kay . project manager: Do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? Maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . Some ideas ? We want it to be a b a ball , user interface: I'd I could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we'll draw up we'll draw up the ball and maybe th where the buttons are located . user interface: My original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle Maybe a hinge that'll have to be the strongest part of it . If that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . Thing is inside I think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , as few buttons inside as possible . Just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . It's looking a bit like something out of Star Wars at the moment though , to be fair . industrial designer: user interface: That was that was a sorta simple idea I had project manager: -huh . One problem you'd get with this design is the ball is a nice idea because of it's stability really , user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it's a ball , it'll roll , so we'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: Yeah . The idea it didn't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: That's that's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . marketing: project manager: How would we go about making you know getting rid of our weak points ? What would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: Not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: E No no , project manager: but industrial designer: . project manager: What did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: N n marketing: project manager: You're the the Industrial Designer . industrial designer: I'm your Industrial Designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe I dunno . industrial designer: As as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between stability and design here , so . I can't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: Yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: It's not new , it's not innovative , it's you know , everybody does long remote because it's easy , user interface: Yeah . marketing: My idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: Yeah . user interface: maybe design something , that's sort of like suppose not everybody's everybody's hand's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . Because even I suppose even with the ball user interface: It still might be hard to project manager: it's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: But then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: Yeah . industrial designer: Well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . industrial designer: if it's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . So for that there's project manager: Okay , so industrial designer: So project manager: unfortunately we've got about five minutes here to come up with our remote control idea and start rolling with it . What if we had what if we had not only say we went with the ball the ball function , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s to make it easier to hold on to . But if we're gonna make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . So if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here I guess , and then flat And then we have the problem with the hinge . So if we're flat on the bottom , it's not gonna roll away , it'll stay where we want . industrial designer: The question is also , I dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: that's true . industrial designer: It's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so I don't know if a lid is a good idea . From stabil stability point of view it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , the more we sell . We just have a ball user interface: But then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . What if we flipped it around here , so that it were Sorry , that doesn't look anything like what you had there . project manager: Course then it's it's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . industrial designer: Question is what makes those game pads functional ? W I think that's pretty much the form for full hand . project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: You know , all project manager: because it doesn't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and Batteries go weak as well , so after a while you have to point it towards the towards the equipment you wanna control with it , right ? So , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: Is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? So that either way you're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: of course it'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it'll it'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: True . industrial designer: but it's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: Put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you don't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . user interface: Even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , isn't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . user interface: and there's your s you kn you know which way you're gonna pointing it . project manager: Okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some Are good ideas , what are not . user interface: Does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: Obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , I think <doc-sep>user interface: No I don't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . I thin industrial designer: Yeah but the the mic should not user interface: It's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: So w we will try to structure this meeting with an a with an agenda as presented here . So , We have been provided with some w technical tools to to communicate and to well , learn from each other's plans as I can say so w we will also try to to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me I don't know whether you worked with them before . You all know I hope how it's about the new r remote control we are going going to design . project manager: then we will discuss , well , how it should be and wh what what our new product should look lite like . Be we want to be distinguished , ? People want to when they look at the shelf want to think , well that's the product I I need . But then , it also should work user friendly and otherwise people well it will not be be rated very well in consumer articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: So , the general outline of new project will be we first go through a functional design phase . You all get certain task in this in this phase and then we will meet again and discuss this functional design . And the same holds for the ph two phases after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . In all in front of you you see the notebooks and w n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . project manager: And well it should work I've read it from my from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . I didn't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so industrial designer: Under documents in the shared folder . Do Do we have to say something about that ? I I I'm not fully updated about this shared folder . industrial designer: Yeah , I guess we'll have a shared folder with documents that we can share . Well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but I didn't find it yet . project manager: Well , yes , we we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . I I'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: Okay , shall I start ? marketing: . marketing: I think for us it's just like a normal whiteboard , but they'll be recording what we write down . user interface: industrial designer: But it's marketing: industrial designer: Actually , I think I cannot go with project manager: You you D doesn't it work ? Maybe someo Maybe maybe Anna , maybe you can start . project manager: So L Why don't you draw your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: user interface: You know ? Pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . project manager: So , marketing: It's not a cat , project manager: that's the cat . project manager: So but that's also kind of cat , user interface: Oh project manager: isn't it ? user interface: the dog doesn't have a tail ? marketing: It's got a tail then . d did you work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: And you guessed cats without a tail . industrial designer: right ? user interface: It'll still not extend , right ? It's not up to that . So marketing: Ah project manager: I suppose it user interface: Ah I think you can put that . user interface: I'll tell to get it off my project manager: Ma Matthew ? user interface: ? project manager: industrial designer: And we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: So you've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . user interface: The cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: With different pen widths . marketing: project manager: Oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: Good idea . user interface: you know it's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: Oh . So I dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually But user interface: You should go for the next one it seems to me . when we are and when w you are going to design w we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product will be about twenty five Euros , so when designing a project I also look at you Mael , keep in mind People user interface: Twenty four . industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p profit aim , about fifty million Euro . we will try to to get at a international market so it will be I think mainly Europe and Northern America , user interface: Ah yeah , the sale man , four million . also important for you all is the the product production cost must be maximal twelve twelve Euro and fifty cents . we still have to to make a profit , huh ? user interface: They have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: Of course . project manager: Excuse me ? user interface: Ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . project manager: So well I think w when we are working on the international market , in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: so when we have a good product we we could meet this this aim , I think . And now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . project manager: Yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality of a remote control . user interface: You need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: . Th th that's very handy I I always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: and industrial designer: And just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? Or marketing: I'm marketing . project manager: So user interface: I thi think you know me , industrial designer: so yeah Just on your web page but yeah not not face to face . project manager: Are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: So industrial designer: So I project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . user interface: And , you'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you project manager: Yes . project manager: well I I think w y you two should should , I think , think this over w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: Actually , yeah user interface: Let's Let's take industrial designer: w Of course , and first before designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . industrial designer: then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with T_V_ over I_P_ . But Ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . Keep k keep in mind i it's a it's a twenty five Euro unit , so the the very fancy stuff w we can leave that out , I think . project manager: So twenty five Euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . user interface: Oh in that case you can you always hook up with someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . project manager: Yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons that will be on it . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , user interface: L project manager: well , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . project manager: you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: Yeah , sure . project manager: eh ? Does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television interface

The group discussed the challenge of making the remote control small while still ensuring findability. The user interface designer suggested that the remote control could stick to a surface since it would only be linked to one TV set. To further reduce the size, the designer proposed that the remote control could charge within the socket using the TV's power source. The integration of cutting-edge features into the remote was desired by the user interface and industrial designers. However, marketing pointed out that most customers would primarily use the remote for standard functions like changing channels and adjusting volume, so those features should be prioritized. The project manager agreed, emphasizing the need for a well-functioning, normal remote at the proposed price of 25 Euros. The industrial designer proposed making the remote control from rubber and incorporating an LCD touch screen. They also suggested a chargeable remote with a mount station instead of a plug. The user interface stressed the importance of having both an LCD screen and necessary buttons on the remote. Marketing provided insights on trends in colors, shapes, and materials for remote controls based on past years. The group then discussed the target audience and made initial design decisions. The industrial designer advocated for a larger button on the remote, as big-sized devices are easier to use and less prone to breakage. The user interface suggested adding an LED to indicate battery usage and device functionality. Marketing proposed the idea of a universal remote control that can control multiple devices, and the team agreed. The user interface also suggested incorporating anti-loss design into the remote, with tracking devices and the addition of beeps or vibrations. The project manager emphasized the need for a trendy, interesting, and sturdy remote control design.

What were the group's discussions about the portability, prioritization of features, concept, functional design, and their experiences with remote controls?

lynne neagle am: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education committee this morning. We've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning. Can I ask if Members have got any declarations of interest they'd like to make, please? No? Okay. Item 2 this morning, then, is a further session on our follow-up on our 'Mind over matter' report. I'm very pleased to welcome Carol Shillabeer, who is chief executive of Powys Teaching Health Board, and who manages the Together for Children and Young People programme. Thank you very much for attending, and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning, so if it's okay we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start and ask you if you're satisfied with the progress that's been made since the programme was established in 2015. So, the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services. Other models that are very similar have been talked about as well, and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist CAMHS. It's some years ago now since this committee did the original report, and obviously Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the Wales Audit Office had done reports in the past, and I think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action. You'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas, and so therefore had to make a prioritisation. We have provided the committee with a red, amber or green rating of where we feel that we were, and that was just before submission of the evidence. Certainly over the last nine months or so, we've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work, which we're not actually leading now as a programme, although we facilitated the workshop held in September. But that's got a real momentum, and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward, and I'm sure we will come on to that in more detail. But we know there is more community workforce in specialist CAMHS, we know we're seeing children in a shorter time frame, and we know we're accepting more referrals, so our indicators are telling us we are making progress. And you referred to the work on the whole-school approach, which is very welcome, and I recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well. But I'm sure you'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people's mental health, and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance, then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme. Are there any particular areas where you feel you haven't made enough progress that you'd like to draw the committee's attention to? carol shillabeer: This is maybe about what the programme's done, but really around the broader sense as well. I'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies. I'm assured that we've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the Matrics Cymru framework developed for children and young people. I've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee, who have owned this, and we're working together more on this area. That's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas haven't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models, but that is an area we should have made, I think, earlier progress on. There's been a general reflection from myself and the Together for Children and Young People programme board over the phase of the programme. I think we started very strongly; I think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle, if I'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel, and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months, and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist CAMHS into that whole-school approach. But, if I could just agree with your comments about the whole system, it has to be the whole system and that's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical. If I can just say, in case I don't get a chance to say this later, I was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday, because what is clear is for that part, the early help and enhanced support, this isn't just about the NHS and it's not just about education, it's about every part of the system, really, which does make it more complex. But I just wanted to say that I think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it's needed and yesterday was a positive step. In terms of local primary mental health support services, what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people, and how much of this is due to an increase in demand? carol shillabeer: Yes, thanks very much. So, it's important to say, I think, at the outset, just by way of reminder, that the target, quite rightly, changed for children and young people. The target changed some years ago for adults, so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children. So, the services were working, a couple of years ago, with significant demand and then a change in the standard. I think you're absolutely right; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children, particularly within the 28 days. And we've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health Measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce, the staff, who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health, into a bit more of the secondary element, which is why the review being undertaken by the NHS delivery unit into primary care CAMHS is so critical, because, actually, if we don't have—and I believe we don't have—enough capacity in that part of the system, then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this. So, I think we will have seen, by the evidence submission, that demand has increased, not just in Wales but in the UK, and it has increased significantly. We are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so, we have more contacts, more staff, shorter access times, so that is a good news story. We've not got it completely sustained at this stage, and therefore the focus of the delivery unit's primary care CAMHS report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention. I know, from my own experience as a constituency AM, I have families who tell me that they can't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's—. And I don't like to put it in resource terms, but it's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family, but, obviously, in terms of cost as well. Do you find that that's a common theme across Wales? carol shillabeer: Yes. So, we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that's why this is a whole system, not compartmentalised. I think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist CAMHS, but can be supported, often by telephone, at that earlier stage. My sense of where we go next, in terms of, you know, you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle', as you referred to it in your report, is to make sure we've got a fully joined-up, multi-agency team approach to that. But yesterday's announcement about youth work, the Government's commitment to primary care, CAMHS, et cetera—that's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist CAMHS. And just a final note on that, if I may—at the beginning of the programme, we had a report from Hafal called 'Making Sense' and there were 10 key asks, if you like, of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service. They said, 'Please don't medicalise it'—I'm paraphrasing now, of course—'Please don't medicalise it; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then, when we really need help, please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level.' That's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme. What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented? And also, given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year, who, in your view, is best placed to forward this work stream, and what will be the biggest challenges? It's a bit of a long question, so, break it up however you like. janet finch-saunders am: And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face? carol shillabeer: Yes, I think that's helpfully laid out in three stages. So, you're absolutely right, there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support. It brought all of the agencies together, which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list, apparently, for places. In relation to the next steps, there is a planning group reflection in early July, in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop, and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage. One is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose. The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area, and then, thirdly, to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps. I'm pretty sure we'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards. There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work. But during the summer, then, we will be developing that framework approach, and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference in September, and then a follow-up workshop in October on this matter. On your question of 'Well, what happens after the programme?' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme. That will move, most likely, to the CAMHS network, which is part of the NHS mental health network. The whole-school approach element is already settled in Government and we've got a connection in to that. The question that's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go. I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work. I don't see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach, as we move forward. So, I'm not in a position to say, 'And the legacy arrangements will be—', but I am in a position to say that I'm having those discussions with Welsh Government officials. They know my view that we've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward, and I believe that they are supportive of that. lynne neagle am: Janet, I think those two questions have been touched on, the remaining questions. We are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements, but if I could just ask on psychological therapies: you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area, and the area hasn't been directly led on by the Together for Children and Young People programme. Do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area, because, you know, we've got different compartmentalising of actions, and this is absolutely key, isn't it, really? carol shillabeer: Yes. There is some refinement to be done, I think, in making sure the connections are there. So, I think, as we move to programme end, we'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging, so to speak. I am confident—I mentioned the mental health network board that I chair—that we have those strands nailed down, but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the NHS. So, this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that. So, in the evidence that I've provided, you'll see the First 1000 days, all the adverse childhood experiences work, the Cymru Well Wales partnership, et cetera, et cetera. So, there is a bit of what I would call tidying up of the landscape to be done, and this is the ideal opportunity to do that. We've got some questions now on specialist CAMHS—if I can just ask about the impact of the specialist CAMHS framework, and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people. Without wanting to go back too far in history, I remember coming into this area back in 2014 as I was asked to establish a CAMHS network. When we spin forward five years, I can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist CAMHS. The programme has helped; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand, actually, there is a good case for consistency in the main, with local variation. If I just give you an example—you'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish. We do have inconsistency in that, but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across Wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes, which helps to prevent admissions and then, where there are admissions, helps to support people to be at home. The key thrust of this is that there is a backbone, if you like, of a consistent approach with that local variation. So, things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is. So, if I just refer to the previous question that I had, and I talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out; that's been tried in one area, been evaluated—let's see the spread of that. So, you'll know my view on internet counselling, for example; I feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end. If that works in one area, why aren't we rolling that out to other areas? So, I think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together. You've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care, but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service, especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming. Wherever you live in Wales, is that help there for you now? carol shillabeer: Well, in your work to produce the 'Mind over matter' report, I clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police. We've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist CAMHS umbrella, to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that. For example, is it that because the CIT, CAT, COT, CITE—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area, that actually it's after that that the network of support isn't as strong, and, if that is the case, what are we going to do about that? There's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults' and children's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours. So, we are taking an extra look at this, because I could not be 100 per cent confident that, throughout the 24-hour period, we've got this fully settled. I continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they've not got that solid place to go, and we're following those through. hefin david am: I think, Chair, I should have declared an interest here, as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly. We're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals, and that will increase further in the future. Can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children? carol shillabeer: Thank you. I'm not sure that anyone really knows why, if I'm honest, although there is a lot of academic research going on. What we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through. So, in the information provided, I refer to the NHS digital prevalence report in England, which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder. Now, that sounds a bit shocking when we say that, but that's in the international classification scaling, and, of that, certainly, 2.5 per cent is around autism. So, if I just take my own health board for a moment, we usually have about 75 referrals per year. If I can just give you a sense of what we've done so far and then what I think is next, I want to recognise the work of Dr Cath Norton and the steering group that's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme. We now have a community-of-practice-type environment, and we're really getting into this. One is that most referrals that come through, the clinicians tell me, are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support. Now, that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that. So, if I just take my own example of 300 in the last year, we're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families, but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be. Because we've put these teams in, because we've got the new pathway, has that opened a gate and we've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern? hefin david am: Can I just ask a question there? carol shillabeer: Yes. hefin david am: So, with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that? carol shillabeer: In a year, yes. hefin david am: Did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected? carol shillabeer: I think we anticipated a few more, and just to say that in my— hefin david am: But not on that scale. And in my own health board—I'm just referring to my own, and I'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place. We had a NICE-compliant service already in place, but we knew we needed to expand that, which we have done, but we didn't anticipate 300. So, this is happening not just across Wales, actually, but across the UK—so, this greater recognition, the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route, which is really important. What I would also say, and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward, is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what I would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so, a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support. So, we've got a lot of people who are under that threshold, but that's a lot of people who still need help and support. I'm trying to very fairly and, I hope, appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme. It's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold, because there are needs elsewhere as well, and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support. Can I just mention a few more things, as I'm on roll on neurodevelopmental? hefin david am: It's up to the Chair. carol shillabeer: Is that all right? Sorry, I know it's a very long answer. There is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private Member's Bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there's a real—. Having the broadest view would be advised by them, and I think they're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call, say, a 'perfect world' would look like. In terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements, about what the big, big things are, we are still needing to tackle. hefin david am: I personally took a very personal decision when it came to the Member's Bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice I received. Because I didn't vote for that Bill, and I'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there. But what I do have concerns about is if the increase wasn't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the Together for Children and Young People programme has a duty to review capacity, after October who's going to make sure that that capacity's reviewed on a strategic basis? carol shillabeer: So, I should have probably added in that we've got a piece of work under way at the moment—Welsh Government commissioned it—by a person called Patrick Holton, and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental. I think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term. We know that money's been put into this and it has had an important impact, but we now need to be planning for the next three, five, 10 and many years beyond that. I think there are some conversations, when I talk about the landscape being quite busy, about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue. So, it's not just about a childhood thing; as people move through, we've got to get much better at that long-term planning. We will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that. It also connects to the early help and enhanced support, because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment don't meet a threshold for a certain category, that's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation. If we can just move on now to in-patient care, and if I can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of CAMHS in-patient care, particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in Abergele and Tŷ Llidiard. Again, quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients, and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units. I think, certainly, there is some recovery in the position in north Wales, and the programme did a peer review visit to north Wales, which I think was very helpful. In terms of where the programme has been on this issue, there is some work under way, at quite an advanced stage, around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services. This was quite a tricky thing to start off when you're in a position where, actually, there've been some restrictions, to then ask the service to think about going even further, but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce, get the right environment, et cetera, et cetera—so, that piece of work, the review of the specification about what could be possible. Clearly, we work very closely with Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee as the commissioner, so we don't commission that. But, if I can just say, probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children. We haven't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams; we've got social care and we've got healthcare. I've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of Care Inspectorate Wales, for example, and we have now got, I think, a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future. It has been largely successful, the work that has taken place over recent years, but not without its key challenges. And, just briefly on the new specification that WHSSC are developing, that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours. How concerned should we be about that being a challenge, particularly in Abergele, where staffing has been a major issue? carol shillabeer: Yes. I think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented. The peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment, where the unit is, the challenge across north Wales of the workforce. These are issues well known by the health board, by the way, so it wasn't a surprise to them. But that dialogue about how do we ensure that we've got the right workforce, because that unit, potentially, could—you know, it's an isolated unit, and they’ve been risk-managing. They've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they've got available, and that's been entirely the right thing to do. With regard to the increased CAMHS posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in CAMHS posts—we know that there's likely to be labour market demand, high labour market demand, in those instances, so are the vacancy rates higher in Wales than elsewhere, given the increase in those posts to be filled? carol shillabeer: So, you're absolutely right. There's been quite a lot of investment, and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service. We had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing Peter to pay Paul, to be quite frank. So, as new services were being developed, people would move from one part of the system to the other. That has improved slightly, but we're in a national context, particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine, of a national shortage, so this is not a quick fix. So, if I can mention psychology assistants, for example, my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team, rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based. We're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: More of what? carol shillabeer: They have more skill mix in their workforce. hefin david am: Just to clarify there, what you're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the Wales system and more psychological staff, experts, in the UK picture. So, England had a programme called IAPT, which is about psychological therapies, and had therefore looked at the skill mix. We've chatted to colleagues in England, trying to learn—we're all trying to make improvements in this area, of course; it's a UK and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach. Because of their vacancies they had to skill mix, and because of the money that they had available—they didn't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we've been able to secure. And if I can just make a plea, really, around recognising the input of the third sector—so, it doesn't always have to be an NHS-employed person to work in service provision, direct front-line service provision, and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services. And that is one that we will need to cultivate, because, to be quite frank, our recruitment challenges won't be solved overnight. We've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times, but, with the training time, it's not a quick fix. hefin david am: Does the workforce profile remain different, or are they starting to—? carol shillabeer: They're starting to come together. Each year we do the NHS benchmarking, and we can see where we are compared to others, and I would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing. hefin david am: So, if you compare a child in Wales with a child in England in the last two years who's been through this, would they have had a different experience as a result, and different clinical advice as a result, or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile? carol shillabeer: That's quite a big question. Hand on heart, could I tell you I absolutely know the detail of that? No, I couldn't. The practice in this area is guided by National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance, so it's pretty much guided. When you skill mix a team, you enable the right referrals to go to the right person, so you wouldn't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well, you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs. And we've seen some of that; if I just make reference to the panel approach in Gwent that's been developed, a multi-agency panel come together, a referral comes in, it's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented. So, we can be much more flexible in relation to that, and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person, because, if we've got a resource that is highly specialist, we want them to be dealing with those children and young people. hefin david am: And one of the things you're able to do—because there's a lot about the labour market you can't control, but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development. What other things are being done in addition, and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question, but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you? carol shillabeer: Thank you for that. I think there's a huge focus on staff retention now, not just in Wales but across the UK. What are the factors that affect retention? Actually, well-being, well-being at work—and you'll know that within 'A Healthier Wales' the focus on staff engagement, staff well-being, has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services, and, then, as you rightly say, training and development and career opportunities. I think the community of practice—it's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit, doing collective reflection on service improvement, and being very clear about learning from one another. And, if you're a clinician, that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward. So, I think we have the fundamental building blocks in place, but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate. hefin david am: What about the Welsh language in the health board? carol shillabeer: Thank you very much. In your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the Welsh language, and have we got enough Welsh language practitioners where we need them. I'm pleased to say that, over the last few years, I think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of Welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their Welsh-speaking communities are. We're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient CAMHS and community intensive services, because, particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable, they would choose the language they wish to choose. So, we will be in a position to, by the end of this programme, provide that position statement on what happens next. I would also say, of course, we've got the Welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment, and we've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards. Obviously, everything you've been speaking about already, particularly about workforce development, applies to children in care as well, where there's other work also going on in terms of support. Can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects, then, with the outcomes for the children in care work programme? carol shillabeer: Thanks very much for that. So, we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group, which is good. We also have a director of social services on our programme board and, obviously, they're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children. I just made reference to, under the question on specialist CAMHS in-patients, the need to bring those services together, and that, really, is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the Together for Children and Young People programme and the constituent parts. We've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that. suzy davies am: Can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground? Because it's great that people are talking together, but how would that affect, I don't know, individual members of the workforce, or, indeed, the children we're talking about? carol shillabeer: Yes. So, if I just give an example of a unit in south Wales that is a social care unit, we've been having discussions about, 'Well, actually, shouldn't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?' So, we haven't yet got an agreed position on how we're going to do this, but the position is that something needs to be done, and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change, I believe. But what it will mean, I think, in practice, is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors, or we could be designing services that are fully integrated. Now, there may be challenges in that, but, you know, let's get them out on the table. So, in terms of this seamless health and social care system for Wales, this is one of the tests of that, I would say: can we, within the next five years, 10 years, really bring that together? That will take quite a lot of work and commitment. On the looked-after children specifically, we have picked that up, particularly following your previous report, looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system. We are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be, particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances. That's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream, and we'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme. And you're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps don't have very frequent looked-after children reviews, because, from all other perspectives, things are going fairly well. And, of course, there's the edge-of-care work that the Government have been supporting, and, certainly in my own area, under the regional partnership board, we have a Start Well programme, which is the old Children and Young People's Partnership programme, where there's a significant investment in supporting children and young people, families, on the edge of care, which does pick up fostering. We've heard, not necessarily just in the context of this report, because we've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention, and I've in fact only recently—well, just this week, actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency, and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services. The transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now, and the programme was involved in developing that guidance. But what's your assessment of the impact that it's had? Because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps, aren't we? carol shillabeer: Yes, thank you for that. You're absolutely right; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that. And, in particular, I know that the children's commissioner is very focused on transition, not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support, but children in paediatric wards, and there is a working group with Welsh Government looking at this. The children's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say, 'Well, if this works, this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere'. If I were just to give an estimate of where I think this will land, I think it will have made improvements, but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing, supporting, auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance. So, I talked about community practice and clinical audit: is this something that we make, then, a mandatory audit, each year, that we do that double check? Because it's one of those things where we know when a child is 14, 15, 16, 17, so what's stopping us? If indeed the evaluation says it's not happening everywhere, it's not happening early enough, what is stopping us? We really need to get underneath that. So, my sense will be it will show us, it will be better, but there's some further work to do, and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who haven't had the guidance fully implemented, because it can make a real difference. dawn bowden am: Yes, and it seems to me—you've just talked about having a systematic approach, and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process, isn't it? So, it shouldn't be difficult. I know we're talking about in the health service things shouldn't be difficult and they are, and one of the gripes—I had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new IT systems and so on—let's not go there at the moment. But, really, this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services. It's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult. carol shillabeer: Can I add one other dimension in, which I think is going to be quite interesting? We talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it's not just in mental health, but it's elsewhere—then you start to think, 'What if we could reduce transitions?', so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better. We are doing a piece of work with Government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be. There are probably some pros and cons, but should we be moving to a 0-25. That is moving the transition at the age of 25, but at least it's not at the eighteenth birthday. What's the argument around what adolescent, young people and young adults services are, for example? That piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: You could probably have a gradual transition, then, couldn't you? carol shillabeer: Quite potentially. I've got some people who have joined my own health board who've worked in that 0-25-type service, and we're catching up—'Tell me what was good about it? Tell me what was not so good about it? What did the young people themselves think about that?'. Because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions, there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right, then. We've got some really important questions now about legacy, because throughout the session this morning you've referred to ongoing work, really, and that is a major concern for the committee. suzy davies am: Yes, thank you, Chair, we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work's not been completed. Obviously, we've got the Welsh Government's strategy for mental health running until 2022, which is a few years longer. Can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue, perhaps even if it's just for the same length of time as Together for Mental Health, or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system? carol shillabeer: Thank you for that. Can I just say, I've given this so much thought over the time, because I think you might have asked me this question when I came previously? There are two ways to look at this. I'm absolutely sure that the issue of children's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time. We have made a lot of progress, I think, as a society, in talking about this now. I talk to my own children and say, 'What's going on in your lives at school?', and they talk about this. This is not an issue, if you like, that I believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years. So, on the one hand, I think my view last year was that, when you have a programme of work, you should have a start, a middle and end, really—otherwise it's not a programme of work, it's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism. So, my position last year was, 'This will have been running for five years—we've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist CAMHS, we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this' et cetera. My position now is I want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work, if this programme is going to close. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. suzy davies am: Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue? carol shillabeer: Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon. carol shillabeer: There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over. suzy davies am: You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction? carol shillabeer: I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward. suzy davies am: Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—? carol shillabeer: If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—? lynne neagle am: Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point? carol shillabeer: I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about. lynne neagle am: And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this? carol shillabeer: I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that. suzy davies am: Anything particularly you want in addition to that? lynne neagle am: No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Education clarifying some issues around the Welsh network of healthy schools scheme, following the task and finish group. Paper to note 3: letter from the Minister for Education on the implementation of the Diamond reforms, and that's ahead of our session on 4 July. Papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children's commissioner and the Minister for Education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education. And then paper to note 6, paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children, to the First Minister, Children's Commissioner for Wales and the Association of Directors of Social Services. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video conference. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen? kirsty williams am: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children. hefin david am: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be? kirsty williams am: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. And we also have to look at—and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic. hefin david am: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return? kirsty williams am: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence. hefin david am: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities? kirsty williams am: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters. hefin david am: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only. kirsty williams am: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Siân Gwenllian. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly? kirsty williams am: First of all, thank you very much, Siân, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front? kirsty williams am: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Siân Gwenllian. sian gwenllian am: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children? kirsty williams am: Thank you very much, Siân. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations? kirsty williams am: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground. sian gwenllian am: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive? kirsty williams am: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions? kirsty williams am: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden. Just following on from your answer to Siân Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs? kirsty williams am: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments—myself, obviously, and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable' is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs? kirsty williams am: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate—so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available—recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities—and the vast, vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. steve davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school? kirsty williams am: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them. dawn bowden am: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that. lynne neagle am: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling—sorry, vulnerable children doubling—after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown? kirsty williams am: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that—. The initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position—I've heard from them. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it? kirsty williams am: I don't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: But there are many others in this position. kirsty williams am: —but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available. dawn bowden am: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out? kirsty williams am: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later. lynne neagle am: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think—we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are—to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment? kirsty williams am: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. Stay Learning' policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question? lynne neagle am: No, that's fine. suzy davies am: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported? kirsty williams am: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—I hope I've explained that correctly—and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer? kirsty williams am: Well, Janet, I understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website—how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching? kirsty williams am: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well—I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across—that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children—'children'; they're all children to me—young people can get themselves—. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like? kirsty williams am: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely— suzy davies am: [Inaudible.] kirsty williams am: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb? suzy davies am: Well, that's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. suzy davies am: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time. suzy davies am: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter—not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter? lynne neagle am: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time. kirsty williams am: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay<doc-sep>I'm very pleased to welcome Meilyr Rowlands, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, Estyn; Jassa Scott, strategic director at Estyn; and Claire Morgan, strategic director at Estyn. Thank you for the papers upfront, in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system, looking forward, of course is the curriculum and the change that that's bringing. How can we be sure that, during this period of change, standards don't slip? And also, from the point of view of scrutiny, will we be back in a situation where we're being told, 'You can't compare one set of results against the previous year's results, because of the nature of the change'? meilyr rowlands: Bore da, bawb. I think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it, particularly if those changes were made too quickly. I think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now, so I think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping. So, overall, I think we can be fairly confident that standards won't slip during this period of preparation. suzy davies am: Can I just ask: is that based on your evidence around primary schools, where the sort of ethos that we've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase? meilyr rowlands: The track record I'm talking about is across the board, so it's very difficult to think of anything that's actually got worse over the last three or four years, so it's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping. It might not be improving as quickly as we would like, but the purpose of major curriculum and, more generally, educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement. A large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work, as well as doing the day job. I think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform, and engagement with wider education reform, is to be congratulated. So, I think going forward, we must make sure that that is continued; that this process that's called co-construction—engaging with the profession, making sure that they're behind all the changes—continues. I think that's what's going to make sure that we don't see any slippage. suzy davies am: Okay, and on that point of comparing year on year, we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then? meilyr rowlands: Yes, certainly, in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work, yes. Can I just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools, which I've just mentioned previously, and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well? Because we're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds, sometimes that's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up, but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that, overall, secondary schools are in deficit. Is there a correlation between those two positions, that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools? meilyr rowlands: I think it's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum. With any sort of education reform, you've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand, and on the other hand you need time to pilot things, to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth. suzy davies am: Sorry, that could be difficult to do if a school doesn't have money to create that space, couldn't it? meilyr rowlands: Yes. One, about the difference between primary and secondary: I think what I'm saying there is I think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary, but it's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference. In terms of funding, probably everyone in this room, and certainly me included, would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that. But, you know, that is a decision for local and central Government to decide how much they can afford. suzy davies am: Can I ask, just to keep it on track, are you finding that that's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum? meilyr rowlands: I don't think you can make that straightforward correlation. But if you do look at surpluses and reserves, they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time, but they have declined for secondary schools. So, I think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because, overall, they're in deficit now. The other thing that's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage. So, you know, if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant, it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school. But also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they're looking at these financial and staffing issues. The final question from me is: there's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment, particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well. How do you think we can improve that? What impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this? meilyr rowlands: Obviously, the most important resource for the education system is the teachers. So, it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit. And we're not seeing them hit, if I remember correctly, even in primary, let alone secondary. So, there is a challenge, and I think we've got to look at this in the round. We've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this. So, long term, we've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into. I think there's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda, that people need to take that seriously, and there's work going on regarding the workload issue. suzy davies am: I suppose what I'm coming to, and I will finish with this, Chair, is, we're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they've barely got time for lunch as it is. Do you think that's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this, albeit that there'll be a phasing in? meilyr rowlands: Yes. I think the new curriculum, one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession. And one of the reasons why teaching maybe hasn't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum, and now they've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach. I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching, so I welcome some of the part-time Open University courses, for example. So, there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary, particularly in Welsh-medium, where there's a shortage. Just before going on to that, just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training. Has Estyn done any themed work on that particular issue, or do you intend to do anything on that? Also, looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England, for example; do we need, perhaps, to think about financial incentives, not just for specific subjects, but for going to schools where there are particular issues, perhaps? meilyr rowlands: Well, yes, there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers. I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently, and we've had the discussion with him. Now, we are, of course, looking at initial teacher training, but we haven't looked at the first couple of years for many a year. And for your information, I've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue, and that work will be published in due course. sian gwenllian am: In terms of the secondary schools, that’s where the problem lies, isn’t it, rather than the primary sector. How much of a concern is it to you that children’s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50, and that, indeed, over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under Estyn review? How much of a concern is that to you? meilyr rowlands: Well, it is of concern to us, of course. I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales, because there are a number of good things we can report also. The primary sector, the special sector, post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well, and I think a story that's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving. We have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year, and we've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools, which is also a sector—. But, you're right, of course, the biggest concern for the system, I would say, is secondary schools, and that is an issue of leadership, and also of the quality of the teaching and learning. So, I believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution, as I mentioned previously, and also a short-term solution to this problem. In the long term, to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well, that’s the main aim of the new curriculum. It will take time, as we mentioned previously; it will take longer in secondary schools, and that's for a number of reasons, and I have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports. It’s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children, and that’s an important factor. That’s one of the reasons why I believe it’s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school’s life and take an interest in the education of their children. We also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools’ mindsets, and, in some cases, perhaps excessively so. So, we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum, and, of course, Qualifications Wales is carrying out that work currently. In primary schools, for example, the greatest and most obvious difference, I would say, is that you’ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year, and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time, getting to know the child and, possibly, the family very well. It’s much more complicated for secondary school to do that; there have to be systems put in place for that. But in the short term, what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support, and that is why I am glad and do welcome what's being piloted currently, which is a system of supporting these schools, the multi-agency approach, that is. So, that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago. sian gwenllian am: You said previously that it's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough. Are there signs that that's improving? meilyr rowlands: Well, one of the things that's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme, that is, the schools that we have identified, through inspections, as needing to be put in a statutory category. So, there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern. I believe that it's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet. I think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that, and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents, staff leaving, a change in leadership. We use surveys with the children, for instance, and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties. So, there's not one single criteria alone that will tell you, 'This is a school that is at risk of causing concern', but taken together, having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools, I believe. Well, we'll be coming on to that middle tier later on, and perhaps that's where the problem lies, namely that if there isn't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves, perhaps that's where the focus needs to be. meilyr rowlands: I would say that it's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem. The greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support, where all the agencies that support these schools are working together. sian gwenllian am: Well, how long does it take, therefore, for a school to move from an improvement category, in terms of special measures, to be escalated then? Because one sees sometimes that there's an excellent school, and within five years' time, it's in the red. meilyr rowlands: Well, that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red. claire morgan: On average, secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years, on average. With primary schools, of course, it's much shorter because the issues are far less complex; it's easier to bring about improvements in teaching. When you've got large numbers of staff, you've got large secondary schools, it takes time to actually bring about those improvements, but it is a long time, just over two years, when you think that some pupils, maybe in key stage 4 for the two years—. Certainly, we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker, and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step. They focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest, and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is: ourselves, the regions, local authorities, the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement. So, it's getting an agreement on what the issues are, and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication, but that we support the school in the areas they need more support. But, as Meilyr already said, there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern. And just finally from me, for the time being at least, the financial situation; we've spoken about that already this morning. If funding was injected into the system tomorrow, say, what would you spend it on? What aspects would benefit from that additional funding? meilyr rowlands: Were you asking about something specific there? sian gwenllian am: In the schools themselves, if you were a school leader, what would you— meilyr rowlands: Oh, if I were a school leader. How would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school? meilyr rowlands: It's difficult to make that decision, because every school is different. It is important, of course, that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves. But, certainly, in the short term, the type of thing I would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum. The schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they've had plenty of time to think about this. So, it's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in Wales to start to think. Because I think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools. But that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and, in that thinking, to contact the community, to talk to their children as well, to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum, because it's up to every school. Although the new curriculum sets a framework, it is up to each and every school to decide what they're going to teach, and what they're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century. Therefore, to give you a somewhat superficial answer, I would be setting time aside for the training of teachers. jassa scott: Can I just add one thing there? I think what we've seen over the years recently is that local authorities, to some extent, have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools, but the effect of that is that we've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services; for example, those services that support well-being, that promote attendance, and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools. So, I think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils, and to improve themselves. So, I think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority, if funding is available, it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed. lynne neagle am: Just before we move on to the middle tier, if I can just ask about the quality of teaching? There's been a consistent message from Estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in Wales. The Government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area, yet it's still an issue again in your annual report. What is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching? meilyr rowlands: I think, in nearly all the elements of our framework, the picture is fairly similar. So, in terms of quality of teaching, we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary. In secondary, it's more or less level; we haven't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse. One of the things that's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching. It is about the teaching and learning; those are two sides of the same coin, if you like. From the perspective of the pupil, it's the learning; from the perspective of the teacher, it's the teaching. I think there's no doubt and I think there's general agreement that, in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning—. I think it was Einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing, you'll get the same result. So, you're going to have to change something, and what's changing is the curriculum. And that's exactly what all schools need to do now: to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school, in their particular circumstances, in the context of their particular children. How can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school? lynne neagle am: Siân. sian gwenllian am: It does cause one concern, because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector, and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under Estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures, we're talking about half of the schools almost, and no improvement in the teaching quality in general. So, there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation, and then there's a new curriculum that comes in. I see the opportunities, but these schools that are doing well are going to go, 'Wow, up there', but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools. Isn't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that's allocated? You talked about releasing teachers for training, but perhaps it's in those particular schools that we need to focus. meilyr rowlands: I do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more. But then, with regard to the other schools, in a way, there are two very broad categories, which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve—. And I believe that the new curriculum and the general support that's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools. But you're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support, and they're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult, because they'll also have many other problems. And you're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in Wales, so that percentage is relatively small, the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support. I don't think it's enormous, but certainly there's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support. The Minister recently told the committee that a number of recent Estyn inspections of local authorities' education services have been disappointing. Do you agree? That, of course, is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle. But of those nine we've put three into category—we've identified them as causing concern—and they're Pembrokeshire, Powys and Wrexham. So, we've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning, and I think that, again, is a factor in those local authorities. You say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole. Which local authorities are these—you've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle? meilyr rowlands: I think you're taking about three secondary schools in a category in Pembrokeshire, Wrexham and Torfaen. So, we've inspected Pembrokeshire and Wrexham already, but we haven't inspected Torfaen yet. And we've inspected Powys and Newport, but we haven't inspected Gwynedd yet. So, in answer to your question: we've inspected most of those, but not all of them. What is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement? Does this vary across the different regions? meilyr rowlands: It certainly does vary, but I'll ask Jassa to go into more detail. jassa scott: We haven't directly inspected the regional consortia since—I think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them. But I think, over the last three years, we do feel that they've improved their knowledge. So, they did take a little while to embed, and I think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. But, more recently, they've improved their knowledge of individual schools' strengths and areas for improvement, and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools, and particularly schools causing concern. But obviously, as we've been talking about this morning, there's still work to do. I think they've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy, but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker. Even though we've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there, we haven't seen quite the focus that we've seen on other areas. I think for schools causing concern, what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection, so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they're not always focused, in those schools causing concern, on improving teaching and learning, so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there. I think, generally, their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools, and I think sometimes that's because they're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists, to support with secondary, or perhaps they don't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region. So, they're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice, to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools. We will be, over the next year, looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work. But that's one of the areas we've discussed, about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth. janet finch-saunders am: So, what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia, and how robust are those inspections? What areas do you cover? jassa scott: Well, regional consortia aren't actually statutory entities at the moment, and we don't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia. So, on each of our local authority inspections, there will be, usually, an area that we're looking at that relates to school improvement, and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned. What we've agreed with Welsh Government is that, over the next few years, we will take a thematic approach. So, the first area that we've said is that we'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform, and report on that. So, that will report specifically on the different ones, but it wouldn't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time. janet finch-saunders am: Should they be on a statutory footing? jassa scott: Well, I think that's something to be discussed over the next few years. There's, obviously, local government legislation that has been debated recently, which has the potential to create corporate joint committees, and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there. So, there may be an opportunity, if that's created, to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that. I think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and, ultimately, it's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that's the important bit, I think, ultimately, to see the impact there. So, we are looking at them in that way, and then taking that thematic approach, but we'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years. And what are Estyn's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid Wales? Would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium, Education through Regional Work, rather than each local authority employing their own, as is the case at present? meilyr rowlands: If I can just go back to the last question as well, what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014, I think, for about three years. So, then, we spent time looking at regions, basically, because we didn't have the resource to do both at the same time. So, we're in negotiation with Welsh Government currently, so that, going forward, we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time. If regions become statutory entities, that would be in legislation, and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them, which we don't currently have. But, as Jassa said, currently, what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that. In terms of ERW, they were the region that, at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections, we were still monitoring. So, for example, the chair of the joint committee has resigned, the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership. Some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left. The budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled. So, we are particularly worried about ERW, and, because of that, we will be going in to visit them in April—next month—and we'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward. jassa scott: Yes, I think you asked a specific question about, you know, which is better. I think our view has been that, generally, the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services, particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment. We felt last summer, when we went to ERW, that they'd managed to reach the best possible model, given the constraint they've placed, collectively, on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally, through the local authorities, and have some central capacity. So, we felt that, given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally, enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable. There were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as Powys. Unfortunately, as Meilyr has described, some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back, so I think it is a key risk, particularly for some of those authorities you've talked about that are causing concern, such as Powys or Pembrokeshire—that they haven't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern. So, you've got some concerns within school capacity and you've got concerns about local authority capacity, and what you don't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them. So, that's why we're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently. Our understanding is that there's a joint committee meeting of ERW on 19 March, so, hopefully, after that point, we'll have a little bit more information about how they're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it's a little bit of an unknown at the moment. meilyr rowlands: You were asking, 'Would it be better for every authority to have their own team?' But, before regions were invented, if you like, we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small. So, you had Cynnal in the north west, you had the Education and School Improvement Service, you had Gwent—so, they naturally did come together in groups, maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions, but they, of their own accord, produced something not very dissimilar to a region. lynne neagle am: Siân, did you have a supplementary? sian gwenllian am: Yes, just on ERW. Does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children? Are the children in south-west and mid Wales affected by this? Are standards decreasing in that part of Wales? meilyr rowlands: Well, it's difficult to say directly, but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area, so, the lack of support at that level, as Jassa was saying, may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties. jassa scott: And it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues. Any reorganisation does take energy out of the system, so it is clear that that time isn't then being spent, perhaps, on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools. So, as Meilyr says, it's not clear, but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing. janet finch-saunders am: What disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW? And I've got to be honest, up in the north, I know that there are concerns about regional consortia, and when local authorities are under pressure financially, it questions, sometimes, the value of regional consortia. So, what disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW? meilyr rowlands: I think we've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own. In general terms, you can't say that any particular authority couldn't, maybe, put things together in such a way that it's effective. Also, it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium, if one withdraws. I don't know whether, Jassa, you've got anything to add to the general points we've made. jassa scott: I think, what you've alluded to there, it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we've got for supporting school improvement at a time where Welsh Government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we've talked about. So, I think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally. And I think it's just what I've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they're confident in where they need to go for support. I should say that we're planning, as part of that visit that we do in April, to survey schools in that region about the support that they're getting, be that from their authority or from the central teams in ERW. That's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously, and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling, really. And then, finally, for me:what involvement has Estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by Professor Dylan Jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier? meilyr rowlands: We've been members of that group right from the beginning. I personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well, and I'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well, and Estyn has given several presentations to that group. The rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room, but it had never been done before, as far as I know. I'm a very firm believer in making those relationships, building those relationships, so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system. We need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we're clear about what each of our roles is. In your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective, that children begin to feel at a very early age that they can't do certain things. I don't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever, it's quite worrying. But what do you think the long-term effect on a child's development has in that respect? claire morgan: It's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings. But in a minority of schools and settings, as you've picked up, children are often introduced to things too early. So, they're introduced to phonics, they're introduced to learning to read, when they're not at that developmental stage. And really, long term, it means the children lose confidence, because if they're introduced to these things too early they don't succeed, they tend to need additional support, and it can give them a negative impression, it can give them negative thoughts about their ability. So, we need to address that, and really it's about— dawn bowden am: Sorry, what sort of age range are we talking about here? claire morgan: These would be children from three to five. dawn bowden am: And is there something, then, in that—and I don't think there's much we can do about that, but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year's difference in their age group, so they're born just before 1 September or just after 1 September? So, that's a huge gap, isn't it, at that point in their development? claire morgan: Yes. dawn bowden am: Is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age? claire morgan: Yes. In terms of reading and literacy skills, we still remain quite low in the Programme for International Student Assessment ratings for reading, and I know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard. What do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy? meilyr rowlands: I think literacy has been, and still is, and still needs to be a top priority. , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education, so it really does need to be a top priority. For example, we've given a lot of attention to writing over the years, and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way, not just short sentences, but having the opportunity to have extended writing, and there's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect. So, it's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books. So, I gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention. I think the other thing I would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase, it's not just for very young children—it's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school. One of the things we have been worried about, and I think there was some reflection of this in PISA, is that there are strengths in reading in Wales. So, PISA, for example, said that children in Wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets, but what they're saying, and they're saying this themselves, is that the love of books is decreasing, and the number of children who read regularly whole books. So, I think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example, to show their own interest in reading, to encourage children to read themselves. dawn bowden am: It's probably a wider societal problem as well, isn't it? I'm thinking about gaming, electronic gaming, computers. I think there is some sort of link with the digital world, and the way people read—the actual technique of reading, is evolving. But I think reading is so important, and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate, in order to get a good job, to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important. We ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future, so we're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition, which will cover some of this next year. Every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do, and we try to support that with a conference. So, that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition. Just one other supplementary on that, I guess, is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so, those that are not staying on to do A-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white. Do we know what the figure is for that? meilyr rowlands: I can't tell you that off the top of my head, but I'm sure that there will be evidence. jassa scott: There has been a shift in that there's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up. In apprenticeships they'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well, so there is an emphasis. I think one of the worrying indications, maybe, that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a GCSE, potentially in English or a literature subject, they don't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well. Could I just move you on—? Sorry— meilyr rowlands: The only thing I would add to that is, I guess, it's quite small, the number of people who don't have basic reading. I think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life, and what we need to do is to develop, in particular, pupils' higher level reading skills. The fact that they can just read isn't the end of the story; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read, and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level. meilyr rowlands: Absolutely, yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things. Can I just move you on, then, to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you're satisfied with the progress in numeracy, because I think we were doing better on the PISA results in maths in Wales than we did previously? So, what are your thoughts on that? meilyr rowlands: I think there is a fairly clear good news story here. PISA shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed, I think, to the new GCSE mathematics numeracy. I think there's much less predictability in that work; you can't approach it in a formulaic way, either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it. It's about applying what you've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum. I think that that GCSE numeracy has built on the work that's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework, which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation. My final question, Chair, is: in your view, to what extent is Wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for PISA? meilyr rowlands: I think that that target is somewhat arbitrary, but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—I think we would expect to see those improvements we've seen in science and in mathematics to continue. The only other thing I would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading, and the reason for that is you don't do a lot mathematics or science in the home. But the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors, more so, maybe, than mathematics and science. So, I think that's another reason why I think a community-school approach is really important. You need to get everybody on board; it's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important. dawn bowden am: Just on numeracy, it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work. So, they're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working, which I thought was quite good. lynne neagle am: We've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils. If I can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years, especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment. I think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things I've noted in the annual report. I think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries, for example, in PISA, we do compare quite well in terms of equity. There's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased, so that we're in a way running to keep still. So, there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap hasn't closed, but that's not to say that schools can't do something about it, and I've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach. I think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning, better teaching and learning, helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately. So, I think improving teaching and learning, and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom. So, that's one approach, and then the other approach, which I've also mentioned earlier, is having a community-focused approach to schools. It's very difficult for children to do well in school if they've got all kinds of things happening in their background. So, it's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them. It's challenging for schools to go down this route, and I think the more help we can give schools to take that approach, the better. They have better engagement from parents, from the families, and that then reflects back on the work of the children. jassa scott: And we've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners, and we'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we'll publish in the next couple of months. So, we've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail. Obviously, I think we've all been to schools where the PDG is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say. But I just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit, because, of course, even though, as you say, there's perhaps more equity in Wales, one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well, and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the United Kingdom. So, whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful, that's one of the reasons—that our better-off children aren't doing as well as perhaps they might do. Is that a concern as well? We don't want this rush to the middle, do we? meilyr rowlands: I think it's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can, absolutely. So, it's not quite the same issue, but we've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well. meilyr rowlands: They're not the same, clearly, because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds. Differentiation is a challenge for schools, but it's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can. So, in things like PISA, in terms of reading, for example, we can't just say it's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve. And I think that's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have, whether they’re more able, whether they're advantaged or whether they're disadvantaged. Pupils' confidence in their school's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that's been a consistent theme as well from your reports. As we mentioned earlier, we do pupil surveys before all our inspections, and across a number of those indicators, like, 'How well does the school listen? Do adults in school care about me? How well does the school deal with bullying?'—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off. Nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence, down to half at key stage 4, as you say. And I think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that: I think one of the factors is that pupils face, sometimes, more challenges as they get older in those teenage years, but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning. And I think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons, in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on. So, they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school, but the pupils don't notice. I think we've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that, at primary school, you would tend to have a go-to adult, which is your teacher. The best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people, but it's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens, because of the way they're operating. We still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support, which we've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports, but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports. And I think I already touched upon the fact that sometimes, when the budget is tight, it can be some of those—they're not peripheral in their importance, but they're not the teacher in the classroom: well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding. So, I think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job, but perhaps they're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment. So, I think there's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally, as they get older. And that might explain some of the difference with primary, where, generally, they're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask. lynne neagle am: So, it's not that secondary schools—because you've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being. jassa scott: I think there's an element that it's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges. And one of the pieces of work we've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences, and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it. So, maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding, but also those staff aren't spending the same amount of time with pupils. So, in terms of getting to know pupils, picking up on signs that they may be struggling, or that there might be concerns—it's much more of a challenge. You've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of  information together to actually mean that you can target support where it's needed. Obviously, we've had one case in north Wales, in an independent school, where there were serious concerns. What's that done to your desire to monitor and check what's going on in these independent schools? Are they regulated sufficiently? jassa scott: I'll pick up on that as well. So, some have boarding provision, and where they have boarding provision, Care Inspectorate Wales would look at the boarding side of it, we'd look at the educational side of it. There are others where they may have a linked children's home, which can be another room in the same house, or it can be a number of miles away, and similarly there CIW would look at the residential aspects of the care and we'd look at the school. So, I think, there's a focus in the independent school standards regulations, which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration. There is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils, and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant, and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well. What we do find in our inspections is that, overall, we generally find that pupils' well-being develops, they make good progress, and that care, support and guidance that schools give is good. What we mean by that, really, practically, is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem. In special schools, this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour, which may be one of the reasons why they're in that specialist setting. In mainstream independent schools, what we find is that people develop their tenacity, their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way. For example, there was one school where we found that they weren't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services. So, these schools do operate independently by their nature, and their awareness, perhaps, of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes, maybe, there can be more to be done, and I think we've talked to Welsh Government about that. suzy davies am: What's Estyn's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools? jassa scott: I think we do through our inspection guidance, and the independent school standards do refer to Welsh Government guidance—it's something like 'Keeping learners safe', which is a really key document, which supports safeguarding and caring across schools. So, I think the other area is that sometimes we don't have the intelligence about what—. So, for example, if there's been a safeguarding referral from a school, we don't necessarily always get that information, which means that when we do go to inspect, we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity. So, that's something we've raised— lynne neagle am: [Inaudible.]—be brief and brief in answers. Do you mind if I move on to the next question? lynne neagle am: We're going to have to skip those, I'm afraid, and talk to the last set of questions, just because of the time pressures. What role, if any, did Estyn have in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited Wales in late 2019? meilyr rowlands: Well, we were interviewed. Therefore, the three of us had an interview with the OECD officials and we offered evidence to them. And I think that, when the report is published, you will see that the OECD does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports. How significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards? meilyr rowlands: I think that it's very important. It's Claire who has been specifically tasked with that, so I'll ask Claire to speak about it. claire morgan: I think working together with the practitioners, the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach, because we know across Wales there's some excellent practice, but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement. So, this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation, but, more importantly, how they can bring about that improvement. Half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start, and 22 new schools have come on board this year. But we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school, primaries, secondaries, PRUs and special schools. But it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement, that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development. So, we're hoping that this tool—it's still currently in development, but we hope that that will support schools really well. And, with regard to comparison of performance, does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools? meilyr rowlands: Not really, no. I think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for Estyn, but actually it never has been. We look at standards, we look at teaching and learning in the classroom, we look at well-being, we look at care support and guidance, we look at leadership, we look at all of these things, and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom. So, we're quite happy to continue to inspect schools, and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because, although data is useful, and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate, we don't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for your attendance? As usual, you'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in Wales—next steps for 'Mind over matter'. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government regarding teachers' pay and pensions, and paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education from us regarding the school funding review. Can I then propose under Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Great<doc-sep>I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—? sharon davies: No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement? nick williams: Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions? sharon davies: When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools. lynne neagle am: So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in? sharon davies: I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system. nick williams: May I answer this in Welsh? lynne neagle am: Of course, yes. nick williams: The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS? nick williams: I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. lynne neagle am: And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales? sharon davies: I would say the majority have. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners. nick williams: Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. sian gwenllian am: May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions? sharon davies: In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools. sian gwenllian am: Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—? sharon davies: I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system. sian gwenllian am: But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act? sharon davies: Yes. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. sian gwenllian am: And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority? david hopkins: Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through. sian gwenllian am: And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions? sharon davies: As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on. nick williams: Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners? nick williams: Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa. janet finch-saunders am: Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. nick williams: But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on. In your view— lynne neagle am: Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. , how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education? sharon davies: As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible. david hopkins: I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. , that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what . It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that. lynne neagle am: And which authority is that? david hopkins: I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point. sharon davies: A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision? nick williams: Capacity— janet finch-saunders am: What? Sorry, I missed that. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status? nick williams: Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site? nick williams: I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision. janet finch-saunders am: And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent. nick williams: The schools would have to make sure that— janet finch-saunders am: But is that happening, do you know? nick williams: Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools? nick williams: Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. sharon davies: In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition? sharon davies: Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition? janet finch-saunders am: I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means. janet finch-saunders am: I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through— lynne neagle am: I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even. sharon davies: I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home. janet finch-saunders am: Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.] sharon davies: Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. janet finch-saunders am: What about if they're in a private setting? nick williams: If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using— janet finch-saunders am: Is that widespread around Wales? nick williams: I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. david hopkins: Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. lynne neagle am: What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee? nick williams: I think it's, you know— lynne neagle am: It was the WLGA paper, actually. nick williams: It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that? david hopkins: In general terms—. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess. sian gwenllian am: And does that worry you? david hopkins: Me? sian gwenllian am: The WLGA. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern. sian gwenllian am: In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered? nick williams: To be honest, we are— sian gwenllian am: In the PRUs? nick williams: To be honest, they are broad and balanced. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way. nick williams: They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. sian gwenllian am: No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements. sian gwenllian am: With the curriculum? nick williams: Yes, and in terms of collaboration. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. david hopkins: If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. dawn bowden am: There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that. nick williams: We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system. sharon davies: It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have. dawn bowden am: And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that? sharon davies: I think it's limited. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS? nick williams: Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. sharon davies: Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support? nick williams: Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. sian gwenllian am: But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. lynne neagle am: Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs? sharon davies: I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—? janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales? nick williams: Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking— janet finch-saunders am: What provision in the north? nick williams: I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south— janet finch-saunders am: Oh, sorry, north of Powys. nick williams: For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue. lynne neagle am: Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue? david hopkins: I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school. dr ian johnson: I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that? dr ian johnson: I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to. sarah stone: What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions? dr ian johnson: Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available. liz williams: I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. sarah stone: And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue. dr ian johnson: Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS? sarah stone: Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to. dr ian johnson: I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education? sarah stone: So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well. dr ian johnson: I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed? liz williams: I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important. sarah stone: And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture— janet finch-saunders am: It's very bad in north Wales. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. liz williams: Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—? dr ian johnson: The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be. dawn bowden am: I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision? dr ian johnson: I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done. dawn bowden am: I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals? liz williams: Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. dawn bowden am: You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common? liz williams: Absolutely, yes. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that. dawn bowden am: And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. dr ian johnson: If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all? dr ian johnson: We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that? sarah stone: Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. dawn bowden am: Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be? liz williams: I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about. dr ian johnson: There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population. sarah stone: Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this. I think some of them have been covered, but— sian gwenllian am: Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded? dr ian johnson: I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system. sian gwenllian am: And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support? dr ian johnson: The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at. liz williams: And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well. Any other questions? sian gwenllian am: Well, unless you want to sum up—? dr ian johnson: Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come. lynne neagle am: Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area? liz williams: Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations. Ian? dr ian johnson: I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations. sarah stone: I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.<doc-sep>Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. sian thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? meilyr rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions—we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically—a lot of funding is being spent on that—improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. llyr gruffydd am: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring—I think that's the term that they use—in terms of who is eligible. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I’m fairly comfortable. There is a specific question—I don’t know if you are going to ask this—regarding more able and talented pupils. meilyr rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. One of them is that there’s still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. llyr gruffydd am: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? meilyr rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. john griffiths am: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? mark reckless am: Yes. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask—? Would you look at one area regarding schools' engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? meilyr rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. Paul Flynn, I think, did the—no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework—looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. mark reckless am: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? meilyr rowlands: Yes, we've done that. claire morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. llyr gruffydd am: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? meilyr rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? meilyr rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership—that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation—that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. michelle brown am: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? meilyr rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? meilyr rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research—the Sutton Trust toolkit—and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of—the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils—all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools—the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students—are the ones that do that most effectively. claire morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils' skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? meilyr rowlands: Yes. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4—to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term—because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible—what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. michelle brown am: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? meilyr rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? michelle brown am: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? meilyr rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. hefin david am: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? meilyr rowlands: 'Crisis' is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. hefin david am: Of those students at key stage 4, 35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? meilyr rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. meilyr rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention— hefin david am: So, what—? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? meilyr rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. hefin david am: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? meilyr rowlands: Okay. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. claire morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. hefin david am: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? claire morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. hefin david am: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? claire morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. But there's also— hefin david am: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. hefin david am: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? claire morgan: I think it has the potential to. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Some of the answers that you're giving—they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. meilyr rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. hefin david am: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? meilyr rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say, 'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed—it's because they do that. michelle brown am: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? meilyr rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. meilyr rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? meilyr rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Do you think there hasn't been any—? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? meilyr rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging—the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying, 'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. darren millar am: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? meilyr rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? meilyr rowlands: I think what we found—we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. simon brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful— julie morgan am: For these particular groups? simon brown: Yes. And, as Claire said—she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. julie morgan am: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? claire morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? meilyr rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs—some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. julie morgan am: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on— julie morgan am: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? meilyr rowlands: I think there is some data available. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation—exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of— meilyr rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. julie morgan am: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. john griffiths am: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. mark reckless am: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant—the pupil deprivation grant—principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? meilyr rowlands: I think transition is appropriate—that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. mark reckless am: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. meilyr rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. mark reckless am: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the 'PLASS' data—. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the 'PLASS' description and what information system that that refers to? meilyr rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC—the pupil level annual school census—and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not—whether any children are adopted—isn't picked up in the data at the moment. mark reckless am: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? john griffiths am: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. meilyr rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. mark reckless am: Yes, I agree—I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? meilyr rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? meilyr rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. mark reckless am: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? meilyr rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. mark reckless am: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? meilyr rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. mark reckless am: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? meilyr rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. mark reckless am: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? meilyr rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. john griffiths am: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? meilyr rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations—of literacy and numeracy—moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. llyr gruffydd am: So, you think—and I'd agree—that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? meilyr rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers—there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system—I'm trying to avoid saying 'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole—have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that—all of those aspects need to be changed and improved—but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers—. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. llyr gruffydd am: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? meilyr rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually—? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. meilyr rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps 'revolutionary' is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. llyr gruffydd am: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. meilyr rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that— llyr gruffydd am: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. meilyr rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? meilyr rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. llyr gruffydd am: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? meilyr rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. mark reckless am: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? meilyr rowlands: Yes. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. But if you were to ask, 'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. mark reckless am: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? meilyr rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare—I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think—you know, where we're better than another country. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? meilyr rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. mark reckless am: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? meilyr rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils' work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. mark reckless am: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools—this relates to the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough—well, we say there wasn't enough training—or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. john griffiths am: Darren—is it on this? darren millar am: Yes, it is on this. , one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government—all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? meilyr rowlands: It's a good question. , specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase—I can't remember what it's called now—excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. There's one for mathematics—a national network for excellence in mathematics—there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. mark reckless am: When you say that— john griffiths am: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall—. meilyr rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. claire morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning—often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. mark reckless am: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? meilyr rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. mark reckless am: Do you support that policy? meilyr rowlands: Well, we do, actually. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like 'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? meilyr rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. mark reckless am: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? meilyr rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? meilyr rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools—that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. john griffiths am: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage—I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people—you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. john griffiths am: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? meilyr rowlands: Absolutely, yes. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment—and has been for some time—about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? meilyr rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children—you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. john griffiths am: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. meilyr rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? meilyr rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10—nearly three quarters—of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? meilyr rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. john griffiths am: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage—we haven't got a great deal of time left—if that's okay. julie morgan am: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools—whether you've got any views on that. meilyr rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. meilyr rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have—. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? meilyr rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS—that's education other than at school. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools—that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a  good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? meilyr rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. simon brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the 'good' or 'better'—as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better—has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is 'good' or 'better' in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. llyr gruffydd am: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? simon brown: But I think one sector that—. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning— llyr gruffydd am: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. As we said in the annual report, standards are 'good' or 'better' in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress—monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. llyr gruffydd am: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves,  or to what extent can Government and others do things? simon brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET—we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there—there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. john griffiths am: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. hefin david am: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? simon brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. hefin david am: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction—from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. simon brown: I'm sorry? hefin david am: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. hefin david am: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement—in the report. hefin david am: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement—is the statement that was made in the report. simon brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership—both political and officer-led leadership—and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. simon brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was—. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director—. The name of the course is the 'Welsh future leaders in education' course and 26 people have just finished that—aspiring directors. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. hefin david am: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context—I think that was the statement in the report—in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? simon brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that—. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together—for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities—from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? simon brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? simon brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers 'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting

The PRU staff in a private setting was responsible for providing education to students whose needs couldn't be met at school. This education had to be different from the limited provision offered by agency staff or local libraries. To address the problem, a two-pronged approach was taken. The first was implementing a new curriculum to improve teaching and learning in the classroom, with a focus on benefiting disadvantaged students. The second approach involved a community-focused approach to schools, providing support to students and their families. During a discussion, Carol Shillabeer mentioned the intersection between the Together for Children and Young People program and the Outcomes for Children Group program. Transition guidance was also being developed to reduce and better manage transitions. Kirsty Williams AM highlighted the challenges faced by a group of children whose educational journey was different from others. To address this, investments were made in the Hwb digital learning platform, as well as in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, ensuring equal access to learning for all families. Meilyr Rowlands acknowledged the difficulty in identifying the cause and effect of the PDG, but improvements were evident. Secondary schools were driven by performance indicators, resulting in satisfactory outcomes.

Summarize the conclusions and discussions on the intuition in a private setting, the poverty gap between pupils, looked-after children and transitional arrangements, narrowing the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers, and the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals.

I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—? sharon davies: No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement? nick williams: Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions? sharon davies: When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools. lynne neagle am: So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in? sharon davies: I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system. nick williams: May I answer this in Welsh? lynne neagle am: Of course, yes. nick williams: The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS? nick williams: I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. lynne neagle am: And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales? sharon davies: I would say the majority have. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners. nick williams: Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. sian gwenllian am: May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions? sharon davies: In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools. sian gwenllian am: Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—? sharon davies: I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system. sian gwenllian am: But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act? sharon davies: Yes. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. sian gwenllian am: And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority? david hopkins: Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through. sian gwenllian am: And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions? sharon davies: As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on. nick williams: Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners? nick williams: Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa. janet finch-saunders am: Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. nick williams: But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on. In your view— lynne neagle am: Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. , how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education? sharon davies: As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible. david hopkins: I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. , that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what . It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that. lynne neagle am: And which authority is that? david hopkins: I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point. sharon davies: A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision? nick williams: Capacity— janet finch-saunders am: What? Sorry, I missed that. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status? nick williams: Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site? nick williams: I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision. janet finch-saunders am: And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent. nick williams: The schools would have to make sure that— janet finch-saunders am: But is that happening, do you know? nick williams: Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools? nick williams: Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. sharon davies: In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition? sharon davies: Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition? janet finch-saunders am: I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means. janet finch-saunders am: I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through— lynne neagle am: I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even. sharon davies: I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home. janet finch-saunders am: Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.] sharon davies: Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. janet finch-saunders am: What about if they're in a private setting? nick williams: If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using— janet finch-saunders am: Is that widespread around Wales? nick williams: I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. david hopkins: Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. lynne neagle am: What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee? nick williams: I think it's, you know— lynne neagle am: It was the WLGA paper, actually. nick williams: It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that? david hopkins: In general terms—. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess. sian gwenllian am: And does that worry you? david hopkins: Me? sian gwenllian am: The WLGA. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern. sian gwenllian am: In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered? nick williams: To be honest, we are— sian gwenllian am: In the PRUs? nick williams: To be honest, they are broad and balanced. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way. nick williams: They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. sian gwenllian am: No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements. sian gwenllian am: With the curriculum? nick williams: Yes, and in terms of collaboration. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. david hopkins: If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. dawn bowden am: There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that. nick williams: We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system. sharon davies: It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have. dawn bowden am: And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that? sharon davies: I think it's limited. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS? nick williams: Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. sharon davies: Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support? nick williams: Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision. david hopkins: I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. sian gwenllian am: But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. lynne neagle am: Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs? sharon davies: I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—? janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales? nick williams: Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking— janet finch-saunders am: What provision in the north? nick williams: I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south— janet finch-saunders am: Oh, sorry, north of Powys. nick williams: For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue. lynne neagle am: Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue? david hopkins: I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school. dr ian johnson: I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that? dr ian johnson: I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to. sarah stone: What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions? dr ian johnson: Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available. liz williams: I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. sarah stone: And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue. dr ian johnson: Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS? sarah stone: Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to. dr ian johnson: I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education? sarah stone: So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well. dr ian johnson: I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed? liz williams: I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important. sarah stone: And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture— janet finch-saunders am: It's very bad in north Wales. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. liz williams: Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—? dr ian johnson: I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—? dr ian johnson: The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be. dawn bowden am: I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision? dr ian johnson: I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done. dawn bowden am: I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals? liz williams: Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. dawn bowden am: You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common? liz williams: Absolutely, yes. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that. dawn bowden am: And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. dr ian johnson: If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all? dr ian johnson: We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that? sarah stone: Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. dawn bowden am: Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be? liz williams: I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about. dr ian johnson: There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population. sarah stone: Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this. I think some of them have been covered, but— sian gwenllian am: Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded? dr ian johnson: I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system. sian gwenllian am: And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support? dr ian johnson: The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at. liz williams: And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well. Any other questions? sian gwenllian am: Well, unless you want to sum up—? dr ian johnson: Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come. lynne neagle am: Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area? liz williams: Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations. Ian? dr ian johnson: I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations. sarah stone: I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

The students nearing the end of their compulsory education face a significant challenge, as it becomes increasingly difficult for them to reintegrate into mainstream education after the age of 15 or 16, not to mention the transition to further education like colleges. Sharon Davies suggested adopting a team-around-the-family approach to ensure the necessary support for learners to return to school, while also considering what the school can provide. She emphasized the importance of a comprehensive support system that encompasses not only the learners but also their families. As an example, she mentioned the partnership between a school and a PRU student in Oxford, highlighting the responsibility of schools and the value of school involvement.

What was the major challenge faced during the transition of the excluded students and how was it resolved?

project manager: in the last meeting the marketing manager had presented her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market this this product at the within the budget that was given . In addition to that to make it sell , of course , the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that's a very important fact , 'cause if they say , well , I go home and think about it , that won't work . project manager: Our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . If too many buttons are pressed , child lock and maybe a display clock so that people could you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . So the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder for the for the item . project manager: interface designer has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . marketing: project manager: And even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite program on th right from the remote . project manager: are we all in agreement that that's about what we discussed last time ? Okay . And I don't know whether the order matters much , I don't I don't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: Okay , I can start first . user interface: Now as an interface designer , I would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . This messages could be switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: Nine what ? Nine channel switches ? user interface: Pardon me ? project manager: Nine channel switches ? Is Yeah . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you don't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . Then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on v eh scrolling the channels one by one . user interface: Then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . user interface: Then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . For example , if you are watching a French program and you would like to have a subtitles in English , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see the the subtitles on the screen . user interface: Then there should d there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . Suddenly if if if viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he doesn't want to switch off the T_V_ , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can while talking he can watch the T_V_ . So a remote can be th can be designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , th now the the yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . user interface: So the T_V_ will have some recogniser which will recognise the user's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . user interface: Then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . user interface: So sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . Yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . marketing: user interface: And this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for T_V_ , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for V_C_R_ , D_V_D_s and audio . project manager: user interface: Can you go on to the next slide ? Yeah , now this is an interface for a chil for a remote which a child can use . user interface: this is user-friendly , it's very attractive and children can use it as well as they can play with it . user interface: And this this child interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . Now this is a big over-sized remote which cannot be misplaced or it's impossible to misplace . user interface: project manager: user interface: So this is No this is a very big , you cannot misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: So this is a jumbo universal remote control and it's impossible to im misplace or lose . And the personal preference would be a spe to incorporate speech recognisers which will respond to user's voice for a particular function . any comments on her presentation ? marketing: Well , looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . I don't think that we can get The T-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , I think it's just funny . marketing: I don't think that's gonna be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . user interface: project manager: No , I think the these are her presentations , but as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: Yeah . project manager: but if I just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . industrial designer: this time I'm I'm going to concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: industrial designer: the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it's like it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just , you know , if you if it falls down , then it doesn't break . industrial designer: yeah , and also using of colouring compon components like if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so we have to use some colouring compone compone components . marketing: industrial designer: which we can use a highly sophisticated one because it's like the it's like the heart of the remote controller . If it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be like the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . Suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should be able to re resist the temperature highs and high temperatures and low temperatures . And the other component we should we have in the remote controller is a resistor which is like i it is very very much important for the electricity flow through through through the remote controller and also a capacitor which is a b which is a m I think it's it's like a battery , capacitor . industrial designer: a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this technical electri electronic compons components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . A battery , I would like to suggest one thing if we if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it can't l it can't charge much . Then also we can If it is a rechargeable one , then people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . Suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: It pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . Suppose the user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the L_E_D_ which translates the signal into infrared light . It will amplify the signal and it will send it to the L_E_D_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . The sensor on the T_V_ can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will it will know which what what action it has to do . When you look at the remote controller it's it's it this is a normal remote controller . And if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: industrial designer: and also a capac a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator yeah , and di and a diode transistor . industrial designer: The electronic components all of the electronic components have all those things like a chip and d diode transistors an Yeah , di can y you can see the T_A_ double one eight three five labelled chip . industrial designer: you can also see the the green two green things are these are they are they are resistors , user interface: industrial designer: and just beside that you can see a transistor , and a cylinder shape , that one is a capacitor . Actually , building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty easy and also it's a it's a l l inexpensive . it's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because when you when you are building some circuits some circuits and also wires , it's it's better to go for printing , because you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it's just printing , nothing like , you know , you don't need to use wires and all . So th that green thing is a circuit board , and also you can see there are b s like access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , integrated circuit . And like we have designed before we have seen some few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . industrial designer: and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious hard dynamo , a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . Like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we can't use . and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular re or an advanced chip on the print , also infra it includes the infrared se sender . project manager: Any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: No , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , which which we used to do before ten ten years before , I think . industrial designer: Now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . project manager: We don't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: alright , my method is I'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wanna see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so I've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . And then when I'm out in people's houses or at meetings or anything like that , I try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it's convenient in the conversation I ask about it . They don't want to have to squint at small print , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want as few buttons as possible , and they don't care for the mode thing . and our preference is , as far as I'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . Ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their Christmas item . If we try to tell people it has too many great features , the consumer just gets confused and we don't get anywhere . So we've gotta narrow our selection down to li two things , I think , that we gonna say are really great about our our our new product . They are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . project manager: And so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: You wanna try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: Y user interface: yes , I would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . marketing: So speech recognition is most important as far as you're concerned ? user interface: This could be one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: Yeah , but w marketing: Yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . industrial designer: Yeah , but but I what I'm very very much doubtful how how far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own problems , issues . marketing: Distance problem ? industrial designer: Yeah , it's not distance problem it it's recognising a person's voice , user interface: industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it's everything so i marketing: . project manager: Well , you you teach You have to teach industrial designer: So to get a good recogni recognising system , it's a costly thing , I think . marketing: user interface: No , it's it's , yeah , it it's like your recording of all a question already , and then you're expecting an answer from th For example , you have a T_V_ system , I'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: user interface: I will already record a question like , good morning , industrial designer: Yeah , but Yeah . user interface: So I'll say just good morning and the T_V_ will switch on . project manager: Okay , before we get too far off here , the components of the concept is the energy . project manager: User interface concept , interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: That will be your area I think , right , Jana . user interface: Supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: Well , I think that Yeah , project manager: Oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . marketing: Okay , so why don't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the I_D_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and the U_I_D_ is supposed to come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: project manager: In this phase , the two of you , Jana and Francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . project manager: if you have any questions , you know , you you can always contact me or or your coach , I suppose . user interface: marketing: Wherever they're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: so I think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in thirty minutes , according to our timetable here <doc-sep>Okay , so Right well from the last meeting I was trying to send you the minutes , but it didn't work out too well , so maybe in sort of quick summary of the last meeting , I can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: right , so Wishing I hadn't closed the damn Right so we had the fact that we're gonna have the the logo the company logo in its colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . We had made our decisions about made our decisions about the device itself , that it was gonna be simple to make it enable us to complete the project in time . We're gonna have effectively two pages , a front page which had the features that the the customers most wanted , and then the the backup features on the second page so that it could meet the technical requirements . So basically what decisions have we made ? have there been any changes ? industrial designer: I think we all have a presentation again , project manager: Right . For the components design , next step is basically the the way the remote's gonna work is still the same idea as before . There's a kinetic option , which if any of you've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries wouldn't have to be replaced . For the buttons , we have an integrated push button , which is Oh just to say all all these are supplied by Real Reaction . So I guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . industrial designer: so for the buttons there's an integrated push button , which I guess is just the same as the standard ones . This says it's similar to the button on the mouse for a normal for like like modern computer . there's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . industrial designer: one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . moving on to the printed s project manager: What would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: that's on the next project manager: industrial designer: I th I think the there wasn't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . Basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual of the remote . So if we've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard push button . There's a small unit available through the company which obviously would be an extra cost , but it wouldn't affect the size of the remote too much . and I guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . going to my personal preferences , I thought possibly for power we could use kinetic which is the idea of the watches that you move you move the remote around to power it up . for the buttons , I thought we'd probably get away with just having the standard push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . So if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , then we'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . industrial designer: i it kind of depends if we're gonna have the speech recognition , we'd have to probably get an advanced one . industrial designer: but I don't know , so that is something I'll have to look into . project manager: So are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we're discussing that issue , industrial designer: Yeah yeah . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . Maybe w user interface: Yeah , that's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'Cause at that point then you've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . Then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: . project manager: industrial designer: As I say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: project manager: No the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: Yeah if if you down . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . The display requires an advanced chip user interface: I think the scroll wheel project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: And note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . user interface: Yeah , and if we're going for sleek and sexy , I think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: user interface: I I've got pictures well I've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: Right . So is marketing: So are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: Yeah , a simple pushbuttons . industrial designer: Did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? The it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message and replies to you . Maybe we should go on what we're certain of rather than project manager: So if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? Or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: if it's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . But is there any other okay , that's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . And so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . But marketing: I suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . user interface: But the way that I interpret that it doesn't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . industrial designer: Okay , so we'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: And I don't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . user interface: 'Cause the example that they've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning Jo . project manager: user interface: But I think that's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: Okay . industrial designer: Yeah that makes sense , so we'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: And it says that project manager: You were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . industrial designer: yeah I I thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: And how does it get charged up ? industrial designer: It's I think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . It's it's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . industrial designer: So you'd you'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: So the speech recognition was Are we going for speech recognition ? No ? 'Cause that required the advanced user interface: I think it would be helpful to find it , but I don't think it'd marketing: Just industrial designer: yeah I think did we decide it didn't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: Yeah , I think so . industrial designer: It was just project manager: I had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: Oh no th that's what that's what I thought , but maybe maybe it doesn't . marketing: 'Cause it's s it's separate isn't it , project manager: Speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it's not part of the industrial designer: It's it's just an addition thing it's yeah . project manager: And so we would want it in as an extra because it doesn't appear to cost too much . industrial designer: 'Kay shall I pass on to you now ? user interface: I think project manager: In fact , it wouldn't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: I'll just just check what it said . Actually I don't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it's already in the coffee machines , so like it's already kind of marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: I assume it would cost extra , but Maybe we maybe we'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . From looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly sleek and sexy . I haven't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , but there's some curved cases that you can see , a range of sizes . Does that move it ? project manager: Sorry ? user interface: It just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . some of the remotes that I looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could where it was connected to the remote control functions . And it was quite a swish model , where it can control four devices , T_V_ , cable , satellite , video , D_V_D_ , audio . So maybe it's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . the scroll buttons , as you've already mentioned , there's examples of those , but they don't look as sleek as other models . And there's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it's not great . There was children's remote , where they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b bright and colourful and you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . user interface: but I don't know if that's really in our field ? industrial designer: I guess I guess we're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: But that's something that's out there . industrial designer: but Was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: Well we're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that wouldn't necessarily preclude user interface: . So you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a You'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . project manager: industrial designer: So maybe the children's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe I dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: Anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one I'm reckoning that we're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . project manager: Is that user interface: Right well that's something that we can be aware of . I think because there's already very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a finder function . industrial designer: So you also said for going for the international market that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . user interface: Yeah , 'cause I think you program this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . marketing: Yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so I don't know how much we'll be able to put into it . And you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: yeah I think I think we've decided that it's gonna increase the cost project manager: Okay . project manager: Alright , so we're just gonna have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: Yes yes . user interface: and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably don't want to focus on those like such as the children's remote . So it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a V_ on for volume , let's think how they did this . project manager: Good in in Flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . So that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . What did they say ? I think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that's the first thing that they see project manager: Right . user interface: Actually that can't be right , can it ? Oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that's gonna turn the volume down , project manager: user interface: whereas the actual button's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . user interface: So , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: So maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: Yeah . So maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: And 'cause the idea was to have limited it was to have sizable amount of information on it . project manager: 'Cause it was sixteen buttons , wasn't it that were industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: so what was the decision on the design of the volume button ? industrial designer: Are we are we gonna go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gonna t marketing: I've I've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . Right , I've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the research into the remote control market the the one that's the one I talked about last time , that we'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . And we've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . marketing: So user interface: marketing: So just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . And then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . And apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . project manager: user interface: marketing: So we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . And then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . And then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that's as a third priority , so perhaps fewer fewer buttons and functions as we've as we've discussed . user interface: marketing: And then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people's imaginations . So maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , somehow . And then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . project manager: marketing: How how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: I think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: Well you were just talking about you've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you're can mis-direct people . And I would've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: Maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . user interface: And then that wouldn't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it wouldn't confuse the numbers . No th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you're looking for functionality . industrial designer: Well I dunno I I guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: But what are they gonna be next Yeah . S project manager: But but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr If y if you change all the buttons then you've got the problem that this year's fruit and veg , next year's I was gonna say animals or elephants or w whatever . Yeah , project manager: That means you're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: I'm not project manager: and you've gotta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: Yeah . marketing: I'm not I'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we're thinking of selling the product over is . industrial designer: it just seems realistic that the remote control market isn't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . project manager: Well user interface: But I suppose as long as it's quite a subtle design , marketing: industrial designer: Maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: Was that in the sort of fashion sense that this Or was the spongy feel was that sort of fashion ? It was , wasn't it ? marketing: Yeah . project manager: So the user interface: It seems like you're gonna have rubber cases , as well as buttons . user interface: And that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: Oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . industrial designer: oh no no no user interface: Oh right , that fits , doesn't it ? industrial designer: sorry it's if you use the rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . user interface: And that would fit in with what we want , wouldn't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . The m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'Cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: project manager: 'cause if you've got fashion changes and that you're incorporating , then it means that your stock is is last year's stock marketing: project manager: and therefore you're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you wouldn't want to do . Whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . project manager: You're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: I suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: project manager: Well you two are obviously gonna find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to how much pl how much how much how pliable is Plasticine . user interface: industrial designer: Maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the Nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . industrial designer: Yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: user interface: Yeah and then you could have Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: Yeah , that's true . project manager: Yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah that's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it's black ? user interface: . user interface: But we are supposed to use the company colour scheme , aren't we ? project manager: Yes oh that's true user interface: We haven't really seen that yet industrial designer: Oh okay yes project manager: that might no marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: It might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: Well not necessarily , because you could have your company We're we're meant to be finishing up . a lot of computers for instance like like on the one you've got there , it actually has a sort of stick on badge marketing: project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . project manager: And in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own badge over the top . project manager: And in fact the way they've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the the Windows badge , you'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing product . industrial designer: And whether we'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . project manager: user interface: Well if it's for young people , like the phone generation , that sort of thing'd probably go down well , marketing: user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , hasn't it ? marketing: Yeah , it's people say that it's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but I'm Yeah . I think with the mobiles , it's the , you know it's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: Yeah I suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: It's in in the house , isn't it , I suppose . user interface: Okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: I think project manager: So don't change case . user interface: Did we decide on the rubber case ? The spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: Well , it was different last year . I don't know whether it's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: Yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you're gonna end up hating in a year , you know . If you're going for fashion trends like that they'll need t you'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: So then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone's gonna have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: . There's flat , marketing: user interface: there's single-curved and there's double-curved . industrial designer: Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? But the double curve wouldn't require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: Well it says that marketing: When you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: I'm not exactly sure . See how the one Oh I'm not plugged in , am I ? marketing: No you're not connected to me anymore . project manager: One one thing to cons user interface: Shall I just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: That should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . project manager: Whereas if you do fancy things with it , you then gotta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . And the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: So shall we go through quickly and just work out what we've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: So but marketing: Yeah . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one where there's a curve there . user interface: I'm not exactl I don't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: That's what I was trying to work out . S so do you wanna go for curves , more curves ? marketing: Shall we industrial designer: project manager: We're meant to be f we're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: Shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: We'll go for single curve , yeah . industrial designer: So did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? The one you move around ? user interface: Yeah . user interface: and we don't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: Oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: Yeah yeah , we'll still have the Are we gonna go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? I th I think we can by by not having anything too complicated . Yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that can't we , just to find it . industrial designer: And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that's just something to that we seemed to leave out . user interface: Yeah that sounds like it wouldn't do too much harm in a couple of years . what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: So we've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: Don't know , maybe just project manager: As well as or w or was that marketing: Yeah . project manager: So it's rubber buttons , industrial designer: Yeah , it was just project manager: so it's not really spongy feel buttons , it's just rubber buttons . marketing: project manager: Okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: Yeah . user interface: Shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: We will go for the a a a apples apples . user interface: Anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: Apple apple a a qu Quite a big one , as well . project manager: A red apple ? Is it ? user interface: Yeah 'cause we wanna incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out industrial designer: Okay . And then we're gonna are you gonna work on keeping the button design quite simple ? Just like the Just working out what we're gonna do for the next time . project manager: Sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . I thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: Ah just the shape of the buttons . industrial designer: And j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well

The Industrial Designer presented his findings on the various components of the remote control, including the power supply, buttons, circuit board, and speech recognition system. After a discussion, the team agreed to use a kinetic power supply, simple push buttons, and a simple circuit board. They also decided that a finder feature would be more suitable than voice recognition. The team further discussed the material and shape of the remote, concluding that the case and buttons should be made of rubber and have a simple design. They emphasized the need for a strong and recyclable case, avoiding harmful materials like plastic. The remote should include components such as a resistor, capacitor, diode, transistor, circuit board, resonator, timer, and alarm facility. The integrated circuit could be highly sophisticated for improved efficiency and resistant to extreme temperatures. Different colors could be used for the remote, and rechargeable batteries were preferred for long-term use and cost savings. The team also considered using materials like plastic, rubber, or wood for the remote, and the possibility of different cases. However, speech recognition required further research due to cost concerns and doubts raised by the Industrial Designer regarding its effectiveness in recognizing different voices.

Summarize the group's discussion on the components and design of the remote control, and provide the conclusion of the discussion.

project manager: and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first marketing: No y you do the minutes first , or ? project manager: What ? marketing: No ? project manager: I I think I will let our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan . The second concept is a fancy controller , so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g industrial designer: . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: Yeah , it's very , you know project manager: It's very big , user interface: if you're project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . user interface: so maybe we should use technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and gesture recognition . project manager: I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition , user interface: Yeah . project manager: but as the expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ? user interface: Yeah , so project manager: Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ? user interface: Y marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ? user interface: I think some time it's very convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button . user interface: For example , if you cannot find your controller , you can just just just speak something such as , yeah , one two . project manager: I industrial designer: Oh yeah , that's a good that's a good point , so . industrial designer: marketing: Yeah but how how is how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ? project manager: Broken arm ? user interface: For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very marketing: Okay . project manager: Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ? user interface: Yeah . project manager: If you have one brother and one sister marketing: Yeah project manager: and they want to watch their favourite T_V_ programme , marketing: Yeah , but the project manager: so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time , industrial designer: Yeah but Yeah user interface: Yeah , it's very interesting . industrial designer: but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , marketing: I don't think it project manager: but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you . marketing: Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff . Even you h you have the controller , I can I can say channel three , industrial designer: It's it's marketing: No . user interface: so it's c come to channel three , marketing: No , but this is disadvant disadvantage . user interface: I don't have to project manager: Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage . industrial designer: And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to project manager: Yeah , but one other question . marketing: if you if if you use the basic user interface: No no we just have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field . project manager: So you think it won't cost an Not a lot for us ? Or ? user interface: Yeah , I think it's because this technology is for limited wor or limited wor lexical recognition , it's very project manager: Yeah , but user interface: it's yeah . It's marketing: But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . industrial designer: Well y y you have also the language problem , user interface: No it's Even for the f because the the vocabulary the industrial designer: you know when you project manager: project manager: Yeah , but there is one problem that Baba talked about is the international industrial designer: Yeah . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English , user interface: Yeah . user interface: Yeah , the key , the key the key of our the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some adaptation marketing: Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or industrial designer: Yeah but you know . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . industrial designer: It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe project manager: okay . user interface: Yeah , project manager: And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ? user interface: it's industrial designer: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: Yeah , but how will you user interface: So industrial designer: Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one . industrial designer: because the for example for Se user interface: Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to industrial designer: Oh really ? That's project manager: Oh . marketing: but then w Yeah , industrial designer: Comple user interface: No , it's not so complex . marketing: we have to take care of the twelve Euros project manager: And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ? marketing: problem . project manager: And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ? user interface: No no no it's not I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . industrial designer: project manager: Yeah , but we're marketing: No , but then it's it's like this project manager: here it's an object . project manager: Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . user interface: Yeah yeah just you just put the controller here , then you industrial designer: I if you say one , he switch to channel , user interface: you use your command project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: No no it's n y if you lose it industrial designer: So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one . project manager: Okay you so you can build a kind of black box industrial designer: Devic project manager: and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice . Or is it do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ? user interface: think it we should give the flexibility to the user and we think marketing: Okay , so you project manager: Yeah , user interface: yeah . user interface: No , project manager: And maybe it will be quite user interface: that's quite inter quite attractive . industrial designer: But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so although y y user interface: Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . marketing: What ? project manager: Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ? marketing: If if , I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition . industrial designer: Yeah , but marketing: But if if if it like doubles industrial designer: I think he need a control that is very reliable , marketing: no one would would be interested . project manager: So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . user interface: project manager: Just want to have something controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ? user interface: Yeah but if if you stick to stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ? industrial designer: Yeah . No , user interface: Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that marketing: industrial designer: It's not really the we marketing: Y industrial designer: we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so or something like that . But I think a user need user interface: Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function , marketing: No , user interface: but marketing: but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something , industrial designer: Don't have a the the Yeah user interface: Okay . user interface: But it's not the only the problem only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ . industrial designer: Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if marketing: Cause for example yeah . user interface: Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller , marketing: Yeah . project manager: Yeah , but we want so user interface: but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition . user interface: the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our from other products . project manager: Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone . industrial designer: And for all the person of the family maybe , user interface: Yeah , project manager: You don't need to tune it . user interface: Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ? project manager: Yeah , why not ? If it's marketing: for example the goo y industrial designer: Because you have new marketing: you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller . marketing: I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . marketing: so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot . marketing: thi this , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition user interface: The then nn marketing: or user interface: no . marketing: if he has something that works fine and is really fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use . user interface: But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller . marketing: See user interface: That's the same marketing: That's the problem , user interface: yeah . , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever . marketing: But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product user interface: Yeah . project manager: Two ? industrial designer: Yeah , participant two project manager: Working ? industrial designer: Yeah , working design , user interface: industrial designer: so . marketing: industrial designer: So I think project manager: I can industrial designer: Can you go to the next one ? I it's not this one . industrial designer: It's oth the oth so I marketing: industrial designer: It's the working design . project manager: It's okay industrial designer: So this yeah so this is the described use project manager: industrial designer: What ? Are you inst project manager: I think there's something wrong with your user interface: It did didn't r receive it . project manager: It seems that we have a problem with the marketing: I dunno if you remember what you had to say or industrial designer: I can say it to you without . project manager: Yeah , so user interface: Yeah , maybe we can first come to project manager: No , I think it will be more interesting to start with user interface: to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides , marketing: I think it's more interesting what he says , project manager: Yeah . industrial designer: exac marketing: project manager: You will had s some more information in industrial designer: Okay . industrial designer: I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with user interface: project manager: Okay , never mind . industrial designer: so It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r user interface: Okay . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside user interface: Okay . So I in fact the the f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use , project manager: industrial designer: so will it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . industrial designer: so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night , project manager: industrial designer: And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example d solar energy alimentation user interface: -huh . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come user interface: industrial designer: and so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example . project manager: Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers industrial designer: Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more , industrial designer: project manager: no ? industrial designer: Alrigh In fact , having them both will if we want to have battery , regular battery and and the solar energy battery it could be it'll it will add a little bit of the price , project manager: So . project manager: And what tha what about the materials ? industrial designer: And the materials , it depends for example you if you have a wooden material it can be more the plastic material is more common project manager: Impersonal , industrial designer: it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class , project manager: Yeah . marketing: Special for industrial designer: or you know , you can have some project manager: Yeah , and i if you we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood . industrial designer: Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood user interface: industrial designer: And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module . project manager: Yeah , we want something easy to use and so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough . project manager: And you think that we will be industrial designer: Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros , project manager: Okay . industrial designer: project manager: And what about the buttons ? industrial designer: I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know lighted buttons because , you know , it's I don't know yeah , in the dark , it's fashion project manager: No it's fashion , yeah . industrial designer: and it's related to how beautiful it is or if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right . industrial designer: I think a touch screen will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so . , I think so , just Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next . project manager: marketing: So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and i i it sounds good technically user interface: . marketing: but it's it's not what they want and So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on . Wha what we really see this year is that everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables , industrial designer: Ah yes . marketing: okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing . And then if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . marketing: So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion from Milan and Paris industrial designer: And fruit and vegetables yeah . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch , industrial designer: Spongy 'Kay . industrial designer: Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ? marketing: Yeah thi this is this would be like industrial designer: Pla S marketing: plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like industrial designer: Very stuff Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . marketing: Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion . So , as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and with battery would be something interesting , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be enough to have something working well . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: No wood but Plastic ? marketing: Maybe not no wood , but ma maybe not the part you touching you know . industrial designer: Would some user interface: Pla project manager: Maybe you industrial designer: I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . marketing: But still y project manager: Th The feeling is natural , industrial designer: Yeah , it's natural marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol marketing: Yeah , it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view . marketing: But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: and what about the user interface concept ? industrial designer: Google and project manager: Google and fancy ? industrial designer: and fancy , f how about the the voice ? And project manager: Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this . industrial designer: maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested user interface: yes . industrial designer: But and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually , project manager: Yeah , industrial designer: so . industrial designer: But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so . project manager: So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller , marketing: I dunno . project manager: maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood . project manager: Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add . And pf what can we think a supplement to marketing: What interface ? project manager: Yeah , for the interface something added value . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of project manager: With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use industrial designer: Yeah , yeah . So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes so we'll you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the simple vocal commands recognition . project manager: you will have to work more , Baba , on the spongy way to to add spongy touch to the buttons industrial designer: expensive buttons Yeah , to make some new project manager: and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control . project manager: And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and the colour of the the society will be really it will be seen in the remote control . project manager: So you will have Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us modelling a cl a clay remote control , user interface: Yeah . Yep project manager: And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach <doc-sep> , first I'll I'll discuss the buttons we just chose , show you some samples , discuss some colours and design maybe , already . The channels buttons , one to nine , and off zero to nine , and the button to choose higher channels than nine . the volume and channel quadrants , left and right , up and down arrows , to do the volume and channel . industrial designer: user interface: well what's pretty standard is that it's that they're all pretty high marketing: Large . project manager: user interface: So it's it's not really very clear what's the function of that . So , that's project manager: Can you go back one page ? For the menu , what do we use for that ? We don't have buttons for the menu . But user interface: So , how project manager: You have to put it on the user interface: Like this . user interface: well I don't I don't know if we have to discuss this already , or in the next meeting . industrial designer: user interface: But , as we have to to to design the the case and the whole remote control in our our our corporate company colours and the logo , I would recommend a yellow case . user interface: yeah so good good icons on the buttons , and and big buttons is my personal opinion . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: at first we will I will f say something about what younger people want , marketing: Okay . And then , I'll discuss what my opinion is about the costs , about what battery is in it , what kind of buttons also . Maybe it's nice to get a remote control not like all the other ones , straight and flat and long . But to give him the shape of your hand , so you it's easier to use or something like that . And then , I'll have to discuss about the costs of all the things for the remote control . When you want to go m move up , you just scroll up and click on the button , if you wanna see the next , if you wanna see that channel . And that's also easy just w when you have a thing like this , and you get it here . , but then we have just a basic remote control , and I think there are a lot of those things , and people won't buy it any more . And I think our budget is too low to use and an L_C_D_ , and the chip who is more expensive . And maybe it's also then thoughtful if we u use as different kind of shapes for the for remote control , that we then use the primary colours . But , thi i This is with an L_C_D_ ? No , industrial designer: Not with an L_C_D_ . industrial designer: but l when you see a menu on the television , it's like you see one to twenty , you go s scroll up , and push number tw twenty . marketing: can you give an indication in b in the cost difference between the chip with L_C_D_ or without ? industrial designer: I got it on my screen and it was higher . marketing: I think if we have an L_C_D_ , it will also sell a lot better . marketing: And that might bring back the costs industrial designer: But then we'll I think we must discuss who what will be better . Or , a more hand-shaped remote control , with scroll , without L_C_D_ . So , well how we did do that ? , well we made an investigation of the market , by Trendwatchers . And well , what did you find ? , we have two groups , young and trendy , and the old and rich . Well th and the young and trendy , they they starting to like fruit and vegetables as a theme for n clothes , shoes , and also products . So , we m must not just only look at what the trend is now , as it might be totally different next year . How w how we how we make it ? project manager: Yes , a concept on industrial designer: marketing: project manager: Just industrial designer: Shouldn't we first discuss about like what w we all marketing: Yeah . , what do we want ? industrial designer: Yeah , but if I paint with project manager: I'll paint . marketing: We have this , and we had the idea of an a more like sh in the shape of your hand . user interface: industrial designer: M like Yeah I can't dr I can't draw it . user interface: marketing: A g project manager: So , it has to be soft ? marketing: . And , the buttons ? industrial designer: So , you can squeeze in it and Sorry ? project manager: Buttons . industrial designer: user interface: But but i that's the only scroll button on it then ? industrial designer: But now we use one scroll button and the other one is here . marketing: And i if we go to industrial designer: If 'Kay c If we do If we use one , then we'll have just a switch on it , and you'll just switch it , and now it's the sound to switch back user interface: . project manager: It's better in marketing: If we have a menu , how do we choose other options ? industrial designer: with the menu button . Just not like all the other ones , with this thing , and here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow . project manager: But if we don't have a L_C_D_ we don't have a menu . project manager: Yeah , but again maybe th How do we know the T_V_ can handle it ? industrial designer: user interface: project manager: You don't know . It's like some sort of teletext option , but we don't have teletext . industrial designer: And if we put an L_C_D_ thing on it , then the costs will be much higher . industrial designer: And this has to be harder , because when it falls , it mu mu must not burst . user interface: industrial designer: Paint it ? marketing: user interface: industrial designer: With the scroll thing on , like this ? project manager: One with two scroll buttons and one with without . industrial designer: So ? project manager: And the one with with a menu has an L_C_D_ . user interface: But if you put push the the menu button project manager: that's the menu . user interface: Yeah , wh what Yes , but you don't know which of the scroll buttons you have to choose . marketing: industrial designer: But is it easy to use ? When you have it on your left side , and project manager: When it's not too big . marketing: M yeah , maybe it's better if the scroll-wheels are industrial designer: Separate , more separate , h yeah . But would it be easy to use then ? If it's like you have a big project manager: industrial designer: project manager: Very good . marketing: But , industrial designer: Personally , I think two scroll buttons aren't easy to handle . industrial designer: No project manager: Then you go down , you switch , you go into the right , you switch , you go down . But is it Does that break , a joystick ? Or a small one just like in a laptop . industrial designer: A small one like this , like a Nintendo k project manager: No just like in a industrial designer: Playstation thing . project manager: Oh the sh Yeah , but then you can industrial designer: Just like a Playstation thing . project manager: So Maybe , if it's possible , it's not too expensive , I think a joystick is better . industrial designer: No , that's okay , I got marketing: And on the L_C_D_ , how much it costs ? , it costs extra ? industrial designer: they're not in details . project manager: industrial designer: It's more expensive or less expensive , huh ? project manager: Yeah we I think you get it . industrial designer: And that's project manager: And , we If you use the L_C_D_ , we have to industrial designer: the most expensive . So , the shapes of the design depends on the L_C_D_ and But , it has to be small . industrial designer: Or shall we just put it on the pistol thing ? And then just put also on L_C_D_ on it ? project manager: If you have pistol , it L_C_D_'s not easy . industrial designer: If you have a joystick on No , if you have like an a ni a Playstation game controller . But , the easy of user interface: But that's marketing: th the ease of use wasn't the most important aspect of it . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: So marketing: project manager: I think it's clear <doc-sep>Well , of course we're new to each other , so I'd like to get acquainted first . So let's do that first , Let's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? You're our Marketing Expert . And I will see what the user wants and what we can do with the new produ project product . industrial designer: My name is Xavier Juergens , I'm the Industrial Designer , and there are three main questions that I have to find an answer to today . First one is what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is the apparatus made of , marketing: . So , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . It's We're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . Everybody has a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about So I'm gonna keep this short , since we had a technical problem . Every meeting we everybody can present their their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the SMARTboards here . I'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it's actually it's very easy . And so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wanna change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . We're just gonna keep using this board all the time , so I think it will be it's very clear for everyone , I suppose . Yeah , just just just stuff that you wanna share , just put it in the in the project folder , like I put my presentation now . I'll put the the minutes of every meeting , I'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . user interface: Well , I'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so I'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: Draw us a technical animal . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: This thing isn't doing what I'm What I want . project manager: marketing: user interface: I'll just finish up real soon , because I'm marketing: user interface: So it doesn't really look like a dolphin , project manager: Anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should It It's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . Do that in my spare time , so that's basically an project manager: What do you like ? Okay . It's big , it's strong , so Oh , it's a little bit user interface: It's not really that responsive , no . project manager: user interface: You picked a hard one , didn't you ? industrial designer: My drawing skills are really bad , so . project manager: marketing: What ? They are industrial designer: They are really bad , my drawing skills . industrial designer: I'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: these are stripes . project manager: What does it want ? industrial designer: well , basically it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . industrial designer: And it always goes for security , in seeking a hide spot and and doing everything , marketing: . So marketing: project manager: I'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so That's the coolest ant ever . user interface: You've done this before , haven't you ? industrial designer: project manager: I love to draw ants . You're supposed to make i make it different from from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . Well I guess we have a little little time extra , but Just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . What are y What are your first ideas for the new product ? What user interface: Well , I basically had a question . Do Are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? Is it just the T_V_ or do we want to in project manager: The project I got was just for a T_V_ remote control . marketing: But user interface: thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . user interface: No rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: Okay , so very intuitive design , I guess . So that was something I wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . Do we want people who are disabled in any way to , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: Yeah , we want I suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . So I think , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but I think it's a little take it into consideration . industrial designer: Only one thing that has to be added according to me is the the material it is made of , it should be something light . industrial designer: That's it speaks for itself , project manager: It should be light , okay . project manager: What do we This Quick What we're going to Selling price , twenty five Euros . Do you have anything you you came up with yet ? About marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: about what ? Marketing ? project manager: Marketing I'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . You have anything to share ? Or else we'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: no , not really yet , project manager: since we're supposed to stop . marketing: and I will say it project manager: Anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything <doc-sep>project manager: So I will again do the secretary part we will have three presentation first the industrial design , first Rama then Mark and then Sammy . project manager: we have to take a decision on the control remote control concepts and we have forty minutes . project manager: So what we want to the decision we want to take on this meeting are on the first on the component concept , so what kind of energy we use what kind of chip on print and one ki kind of case . And at the end Sammy will give a trend watching on what he's he's been doing . So we're to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we'll use for energy , and the material and interface . First one , we can use simple battery , or we can use traditional solar cells or and the material we can have plastic , rubber which is good for this R_S_A_ marketing: Ah . industrial designer: and then titanium , which can be which have very good look an and then interface we're to use push buttons or liquid crystal d L_C_D_ display . So , as we discussed before , we need to we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control . Still we are looking for possible technical specifications and how w easy we can do and within our pri range , like we're to in our twelve Euros or around that . So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house . So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic to have enough energy with the solar cells marketing: And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or and well the problem is with this design we found that we can't use double-curved shapes . user interface: Why ? industrial designer: it's I think in manufacturing I guess it's problematic . So , we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it's really lesser re really less expensive compared to L_C_D_ marketing: industrial designer: which are which needs advanced chip technology and it's more expensive , user interface: industrial designer: since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition marketing: industrial designer: we want to reduce cost . project manager: I want to know why it b just sorry but for the point before why not the rubber , if it is something that it seems to be light . industrial designer: And also like in if you put a it's be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things project manager: Okay . user interface: W we can use something like you know the whole body's titanium but there are some rubber or I dunno some rubber parts like industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: like this ? project manager: Yes so user interface: to make it feel better and to you know industrial designer: Like in cell phones recently project manager: -huh . industrial designer: And this push buttons project manager: yeah so industrial designer: we we would like to use push buttons instead of L_C_D_s and so we want to mo we're we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money project manager: Okay , s so simple button and speech recognition for the more complicated . industrial designer: for S S marketing: Speech industrial designer: Y yeah we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology , user interface: user interface: Okay , and still we have industrial designer: so user interface: can we still include the L_ L_S_D_ display ? marketing: L_C_D_ . industrial designer: l marketing: Seems not , it's either L_C_D_ or push-button . industrial designer: So user interface: No , industrial designer: it's like a user interface: it's not gonna be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus . industrial designer: Yeah maybe maybe we can see depending on how we'll come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and user interface: Okay , so let's try it , let's t industrial designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or or something so we want to reduce the cost on display marketing: The L_C_D_ would industrial designer: or this inter marketing: The display would only be display and not touch sensitive you mean . user interface: Yeah , yeah , it's it's not gonna be a touch pad , just a display for giving you information . Yeah , we're to go for li and now I think we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteries marketing: Okay . marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just the finding it basically , instead of clapping why not just be ask . industrial designer: Yeah , that's then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it m maybe at least five , six people want to use it so so how to how to define our re speech recognition marketing: If we're going for more speaker independent then it would be like again cumbersome and we need really m more technology project manager: Okay , industrial designer: and so project manager: for the location . industrial designer: Yeah , if if everybody in the house n to locate then we're to go for some speaker independent technology or something . So let's now go to the you don't have more question ? industrial designer: marketing: No , it's okay . user interface: But still L_S_D_'s already quite nice , marketing: L_C_D_ . user interface: L_C_ marketing: L_S_D_ is something else , industrial designer: marketing: and it's quite nice as well . user interface: have a look at this project manager: industrial designer: user interface: no it's yeah . Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface , but for possible instruction or user's manual and all the complex things that come together with your T_V_ and remote controls . We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttons marketing: user interface: and we got explanation for every button industrial designer: user interface: and you can use your time and it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and the L_C_D_ is going to be somewhere here and go back button , I don't know really where it is , maybe one of this buttons , and power on and off I I don't remember project manager: . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no ? I can see nothing . industrial designer: user interface: And it's got just few buttons , quite low looking , and all this stuff we already we already discussed . marketing: Do you think it can come in several colours ? user interface: And everyone's gonna be satisfied . marketing: Or did the user interface: I would make a backlight of the L_C_D_ screen with different colours . marketing: Yeah , well they like something which is user interface: Okay , so let's remember there's a Nokia phone which changeable panels . marketing: yeah , okay , user interface: Do you like it ? marketing: so that would be the option . I don't know I don't have a Nokia phone , project manager: industrial designer: But it's marketing: but I don't use that but again , I might user interface: That's why you don't have it . marketing: bu but project manager: industrial designer: But it would be expensive , no ? If you use colour L_C_D_ . industrial designer: Maybe we can just if users want more colours they can pay more money to get this the shapes and they can have different assembly . industrial designer: So users have different they have their own interests , colour interests and so project manager: So ? user interface: project manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we if you want o more colours on L_C_D_ , industrial designer: Yeah . user interface: Okay , what there's one more decisi one more solution in fact , 'cause there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are , like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around , like what colour is around , and depending on the temperature , industrial designer: Lights , yeah . project manager: But it can be in maybe in an a gradable version , user interface: - , - , project manager: but industrial designer: Yeah . Those for which the remote control is is to be something useful I'm going to talk about this later but and those for which is something that that that is specific to them so it it's like a signature . project manager: Okay marketing: project manager: and you think that we don't have to make to make them pay more because of o or this is industrial designer: marketing: I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that . project manager: so i it's not a s base service industrial designer: marketing: No no . industrial designer: But those people will be really few , no ? So like we can those marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends . project manager: maybe that's if that it's a selling point maybe it has to be the base . But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time . user interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ? marketing: Oh , you don't ? Yeah . You don't have your remo user interface: No ? industrial designer: marketing: Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod . marketing: It has this distinctive look and feel and look which people seems to like user interface: Okay . marketing: just because it's a colour that we don't usually see in a remote control . Hand light , marketing: glow in the dark , industrial designer: project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: Yeah marketing: so industrial designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or something marketing: user interface: user interface: but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ? project manager: user interface: And industrial designer: user interface: I dunno marketing: user interface: that's a question to you and to to marketing: Well so I heard that it seems that speech recognition is something that can be done so that's the smartness of the thing . marketing: Currently we don't have guns with speech recognition or beer cans with speech recognition industrial designer: marketing: but we may have remote controls with speech recognition . Are are you saying here that the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father doesn't want . industrial designer: that that could be feasible I guess , like So since we have we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition so we can use marketing: Okay . marketing: But for instance th I I'm thinking about the other particularity that the the remote control could have . S since it it knows who is using it , it might also record the kind of channels you are u more often using and levels of volumes that you're more often things like that industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: and provide you ways of using them , I dunno , somehow , industrial designer: Yeah . marketing: but industrial designer: it's marketing: that might also be a good sales pitch again . Okay , so I'm going to talk about trends and I hope this can help us to to understand l how we should design our remote control . So first maybe just a small recap on how how do we watch trends so it's not so simple you might think that it's easy but it's not so simple . Anyway these days the best source of information is the web as you know , so have to to go often on the web and look at what the others are doing , and ask real people who are using real remote controls every day or any other tool that is similar to a remote control which basically is a small device that people have with them , always , like a phone . Of course those tha d who are watching the trends are also have also to be inspired because in fact they're not only watching the trends , they're inventing it , they're creating the trend . This is more risky because you're not following the trend , project manager: marketing: you try to invent it , which means either you succeed and you make a lot of money or you don't and you're out of business . to be to be quick there's a lot of words here but basically there are in in the market of of remote controls there are three aspects that we should very pay much attention to . The first one , which seems to be the most important one , is that it has to be fancy , it has to have a fancy look and feel . Strangely enough it's more important to be fancy than to be wi and now that's the second thing it has to be , it has to be technologically i innovative , industrial designer: marketing: it has to be new with some of new technology inside and and this is also more important than the last thing which we w may think that would have been the most important , which is that it should be easy to use and it should be easy to use as a remote control . So as you see it first have to be very nice , s something that people are proud of that i they can be id identified with and and then something that contains very novel stuff that they can talk about with their friends , huh , mine has this and not yours . And finally of course it has to be useful as a remote control but it seems that it's not so important that it's useful as a remote control . If we look back and not look at only remote controls I think it's important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan , well , it seems that this year things should have a fruit and vegetable way of of look or feel project manager: industrial designer: marketing: or so . And if we co we compare to last year , now it has to be spongy , industrial designer: . Well project manager: industrial designer: Yeah marketing: this so so I think i industrial designer: kind of maybe marketing: When we were talking about rubber , industrial designer: Yeah it marketing: I think the rubber aspect might be important because it's what is probably more feasible in terms of sponginess . marketing: So project manager: It seems to be marketing: Think more of something in the colours of like fruit and vegetables and spongy , industrial designer: Fruit . Even shape ? marketing: as a even in the shape it has to be more round and more look natural somehow . marketing: So that's what people seem to yeah i I know it's quite far from what you thought project manager: Sorry . industrial designer: marketing: but that's that's fashion and project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Okay . project manager: you have questions ? industrial designer: So these abilities are mainly ad addressed by young people ? Or it's marketing: These I'm sorry . industrial designer: This you you so did you marketing: Yeah , yeah we have people listening to the trends everywhere in the world , of course , industrial designer: Where ? Oh . marketing: as you know our company is quite big and so I'm just asking them what are the current trends according to them when they go in the stores and when they ask their friends industrial designer: It's not from . marketing: The what we industrial designer: Yeah but some materials n they're to be they're to be something like solid like they can't be really spongy marketing: Sure . marketing: We have to I think we have to have the look of fruit and vegetables industrial designer: yeah , yeah sponge , yeah yeah at least that's marketing: but we still have to put our chips inside , so of course . We can have t colours or this shape marketing: Yeah , I think in the colours and in the the kind of material . industrial designer: or at least marketing: If if it's something like rubber made or I think it it's also going to be good . now you have to go straight on this individual action which i which are for Rama wil design , industrial designer: Look and feel de project manager: Mark the user interface design , and Sammy the product evaluation . industrial designer: So , can we highlight the specific features of our project manager: Yeah you're right , you have to industrial designer: yeah , so so we want the speech recogniser and we want some kind of buttons and we want some themes like fruits or vegetables , project manager: So industrial designer: that's project manager: you say s industrial designer: we want to follow general trend . industrial designer: So , do you think marketing: No , we don't have to , user interface: So we have to for project manager: No . marketing: industrial designer: So what about location and these things , people are really interesting on those features ? Or they really like They more want these fancy features marketing: I think i industrial designer: like marketing: yeah i it's again in this what I said first it has to be fancy so I think if nobody else pro provides currently a remote control with that kind of stuff and if we can provide it I think it's a good sell for us project manager: Do we take titanium smelling like fruit , or do we make spongy fruity-like marketing: industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: industrial designer: yeah at least like we can make banana or project manager: Don't you say that you cannot do double shape curved shape user interface: But Doub double-curved . industrial designer: and and s we're to see the whether rubber is expensive user interface: Okay , okay . industrial designer: we have only the plastic or the the chippy yeah fibre chips or user interface: We'll see . I I really don't like this modelling clay 'cause you know it makes some for for industrial designer: Yeah . industrial designer: So still we want to keep L_C_D_ ? Or project manager: I think it's what we say , that we have an an L_C_D_ with information . marketing: The thing is that if we want to have as he says if we want to have a small number of buttons we need to have a kind of output that says currently what their actions are . industrial designer: and we just stick with two batteries so it's not any solar or marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah j yeah , marketing: Classical , we stay classical in that we don't reinvent the wheel . marketing: Anyway it's very in general I think people change T_V_ more often than batteries of their remote control

The user interface team proposed a user-friendly design for the TV remote control, suggesting the use of the power button to switch the television on and off, the mute button for volume control, and numbered buttons for channel selection. They also recommended incorporating arrows and quadrants for volume and channel control, as well as a menu button for LCD display manipulation. The placement of the power button and the choice of icons or letters on the buttons were also discussed. In order to create a unique device, the team decided on a remote control with a minimalistic design, using arrows instead of multiple buttons. They also considered adding the company logo and using different colors for a recognizable interface, but these ideas were rejected by the project manager. The user interface designer presented a visually appealing design with a limited number of buttons, suggesting a backlight for the LCD screen in different colors, but this was deemed too costly. The industrial designer proposed changing the color of the assembly to meet special needs, and also explored the possibility of incorporating light and infrared technology for glow-in-the-dark functionality. The group also discussed the inclusion of speech recognition and user identification features to create a smart controller. The project manager emphasized that the target was a TV remote control, and the user interface team stressed the importance of sticking to familiar designs. Usability and lightness were identified as essential features of the product. The user interface designer introduced three concepts - the Google controller, the fancy controller, and the intelligent controller - which represented simplicity and power, attractiveness and recognition, and the integration of speech and gesture recognition technologies, respectively. After extensive discussions, the group decided to combine elements from the Google and fancy controllers, incorporating simple vocal commands.

Summarize the discussion on the concept design and user interface of the product, including the target user's familiarity with the interface and additional design aspects.

Item 2 this morning is the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill: Stage 2 proceedings. I'm pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, deputy director, children and families division at Welsh Government; and Emma Gammon, lawyer for Welsh Government. As I said, the purpose of the meeting is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. For these proceedings, Members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments, the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled, marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the Bill. The order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is, sections 1 to 3 and the long title. However, the order in which they're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list. Members will, therefore, need to follow the two papers, although I will advise Members when I call them whether they're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair I will move amendments in the name of the Deputy Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Deputy Minister wishes me to move all of her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Deputy Minister, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings. In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Deputy Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and, if necessary, we can adjourn. So, we will proceed, then, to group 1, which is the duty to promote public awareness. I move amendment 1 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group. My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences. I tabled these amendments in response to this committee's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report, so I have responded to that. I've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent, should the Bill be passed. I've considered amendments 1A to 1E, which have been tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, and which relate to the duty to raise awareness. We don't think, actually, that this adds anything to the Government amendment, which already mentions awareness. I understand, of course, that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive, well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change, and understand how to respond to it. But I don't think it's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups, such as visitors to Wales, on the face of the Bill—that's the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others. In relation to children, the committee will know that I'm fully committed to children’s rights, and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions. An additional due regard requirement, such as the one set out in amendment 1D, relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed. This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children’s rights at the heart of our policy making. Similarly, I don't think it's necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign, as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C. Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group, under the auspices of the Bill’s strategic implementation group, working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign. And, really, their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill. I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence; it does not create a new offence. And in this context, it doesn't make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished. As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point, safeguarding is everyone’s business, and, as now, the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child. I'm asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4, and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill. I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A: primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention. dawn bowden am: I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it's been passed? janet finch-saunders am: There's a lot of legislation. The first Assembly term when I was here— dawn bowden am: Yes, what I'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: I'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: What I'm asking for is: can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation? janet finch-saunders am: The very first term that I was an Assembly Member, we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation. Even today, as I sit here, the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation. So, therefore, I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved, and I shall speak now— dawn bowden am: With respect, Chair, that's not the question I asked. lynne neagle am: I can call you in the debate, if you'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this. janet finch-saunders am: The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications. And that's what we're talking about here, Members—the implications of removing this defence. Strikingly, the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following: 'the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation.' If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment, it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill. Additionally, the committee found that while the current Welsh Government's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt, future Governments may have less of a commitment. This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement. Furthermore, the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill quite clearly notes that, under section 2, the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment. [Interruption.] Should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: Are you taking an intervention? janet finch-saunders am: No. janet finch-saunders am: Should our amendment to be agreed, we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee's recommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children. During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales, Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports the committee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, at Stage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault. I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. In terms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven years after the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, to continue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think is genuinely a mistake. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, not professionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse. dawn bowden am: My comments, really, relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns, which I think all of us would want to see, and would appreciate in any changes in legislation. My point, really, is that we have a plethora of legislation that this Assembly has passed in the last 20 years, and I'm not aware of any legislation where, on the face of the Bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis. It seems to me that, for some reason, you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation. From what the Deputy Minister is saying—and perhaps I will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign. That awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it. It could also, I assume, Deputy Minister, be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns, and particularly in relation to visitors to Wales. Again, we have other pieces of legislation in Wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the UK. I am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into Wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they don't. And similarly, when we go to visit countries that have different legislation, we don't necessarily know what legislation we're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws. So, my key point, Chair, is just the necessity of an ongoing, endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the Bill. hefin david am: My comments follow logically from Dawn Bowden's comments, particularly in relation to amendments 1D and 1E. What you would be doing is that this Senedd, if this was on the face of the Bill, the duty on Ministers, would be putting the duty on Ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth Senedd, into the next Senedd term, and putting that duty on those newly elected Ministers after that, which, in principle, would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: Hefin, are you taking an intervention from Suzy? hefin david am: Yes, happy to. hefin david am: I'm happy to take it now, because I was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made, actually. You referred to this potentially binding Ministers in future Assemblies; at the moment, we've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this Act into the Assembly after next. I'm wondering if you're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on. hefin david am: Well, when we get to that amendment, I'll make comments if I feel it necessary. But at this point in time, we're talking about amendments 1D and 1E, and particularly in relation to 1D and 1E it just isn't necessary, given the fact that—I won't call it a concession, because I think you made a reasonable point about the Minister making a statement at Stage 3, and I think Dawn Bowden actually supported that as well. And that's my key point, really, which is why I wouldn't vote for those two amendments. I don't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign, as is outlined in 1A. I agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change, and therefore I'm very glad to see that the Government has brought forward amendment 1, and I do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change. In terms of amendment 1B, I do have sympathy with what is being said here, but I believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the Government, through various programmes, and it should not be an addition on the face of this Bill, which deals with a small change to the common law. And then, on 1D also, if I may—I don't agree with this either. Again, I believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children, but that should happen through the children's rights convention, as part of a broader programme to promote children's rights. julie morgan am: Thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today. I just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the Bill, and I absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the Bill. I'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee's interest and the work that you've done in this area of work. We're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from Royal Assent, and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign. Would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand? A two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: Six-year. suzy davies am: Oh, so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: Yes. Amendment 1B, about support available to parents and how to access it—again, this level of detail is not required on the face of the Bill. I just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group, who are working on all aspects of this Bill, many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee. I think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting, but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development, and they're not required on the face of the Bill. So, I'm not putting them down, I'm just saying that we don't need them to be there on the face of the Bill. And then amendment 1C—the information about how to raise concerns—I do repeat that safeguarding is everybody's business, and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed. Amendment 1D—Ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now, children's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making, and the entire Bill is about protecting the rights of children. Again, in terms of visitors, the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the Bill. And then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised, revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of Stage 3. The issue that was raised about the Scottish Bill, that it refers to 'understanding'—now, the Scottish Bill was not a Government Bill, it was a private Member's Bill, and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding'; 'awareness' is sufficient. So, basically, I think that the points made have been very useful, but I urge committee members to accept my amendments, but to reject those proposed by Janet Finch-Saunders, as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, I'll take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 1B. All those against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, as there's an objection, I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1? julie morgan am: I do. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection, so we'll take a vote by show of hands. We'll move on now then to group 2, which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation. I move amendment 2 in the Deputy Minister's name, and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments, and the other amendments in this group. The amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the Bill, and I believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee, so you strongly influenced this amendment. It's clear from Members' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at Stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment. I've already provided assurance that I agree with the importance placed on such a review, both in the explanatory memorandum and during Stage 1 scrutiny. I also made a commitment to bring forward a Government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the Bill. As I said in my responses to the Stage 1 committee report, and as set out in the explanatory memorandum, the post-implementation review of this Bill will not be a single piece of work, but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. Firstly, we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys, which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment. Secondly, through a dedicated task and finish group, we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the Bill and to consider the possible impact on services. Turning to amendment 2C, this amendment would require Welsh Ministers to prepare and lay before the Assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced. This amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what I think is a priority for the implementation of this Bill: that is, given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders. I also think this amendment is not required because, as I've already stated, we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising. In June, I shared the findings of a representative survey, which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation. I speak to amendments 2C, excluding 2D, to 2K, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment. Again, I must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment. Amendments 2E to 2K outline what we would expect to be within this report, and we would wish to see a commitment from the Deputy Minister to ensure the National Assembly for Wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report. Amendment 2C requests that the Welsh Government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the Assembly before section 1 commences. As I have outlined under my amendments in group 1, the understanding of the public about the implications of the Bill cannot be sidelined. Although the Deputy Minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign, we, as the National Assembly for Wales, must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins. As I noted under amendments 1B to 1E, there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the Bill's effect. I'm sure that the Deputy Minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the Bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness. It is, therefore, important for the Assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people. As will also be elaborated under amendment 2D, it is extremely important that we, as the Parliament of Wales, are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign's impact. Before we implement what will be a criminal offence, it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign's effects before section 1 commences. Deputy Minister, first of all, can I just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2B? I'll come to that a little bit later, if I may. I just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you'll be rejecting amendment 2C here. I actually don't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all. It's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that's in the draft Bill at the moment. So, failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well, rather than anything intrinsic in the Bill, so I'm not sure I can accept your argument on that. And, on 2D—very pleased to hear that you'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying' rather than 'publishing' at Stage 3, but, in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature, perhaps I could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage, because it doesn't make any difference. Your amendment is going to pass, and this amendment to it would be—I think the gesture there would be very much appreciated. I'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2A and 2B, but I want to begin, again, by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the Bill on the issue of reporting, because I know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity; you mentioned it earlier. But this is not a newid bychan, I'm afraid, Siân; the terms and the effect of this Bill are quite extensive, and it does need the reassurances, if you like, necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this Bill on families where parents' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute. I know that you're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the Bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment, and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear. But, if this were me bringing forward this Bill, I think I'd want to show the world that I was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do. Amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the Bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed. If you're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change, and I think that is what you're expecting—you know, showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment, reducing the number of, and indeed the likelihood of, parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—I really would have thought you'd want people to know sooner, or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that. Waiting five years, I think, will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years, and this is why I'm grateful to you for your offer, because there may be a way where we can overcome that. If the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so, basically, in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that's great, but there's a possibility it's going to reverse. For myself, I think one year would probably be enough, but I think three years is a reasonable compromise, as opposed to five years, for a reporting period. I can't see the reason for quite that length of time—I know you've talked about New Zealand—but neither can the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. When they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report, they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny. That's something I think we perhaps need to bear in mind now, as we enter this period of the consolidation of law. Five/seven years is really something of an outlier, and while that might have been appropriate, perhaps, in New Zealand, I don't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in Wales, and, of course, there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years, and I note that you haven't drawn on them in order to support your argument. So, can I urge Members and the Minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments? I don't think it's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point, Hefin—that we not only won't hear in this Assembly, we won't hear in the next Assembly, about the formal evaluation of this, unless I follow— hefin david am: I won't intervene; I'll speak. suzy davies am: Is that okay? hefin david am: Yes, I'll make the point. lynne neagle am: Okay, I've got— suzy davies am: Yes, I'll take the intervention. lynne neagle am: No, he doesn't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: I won't do an intervention; I'll speak. suzy davies am: Oh, apologies— hefin david am: Just to say— suzy davies am: I'll wait. The point I was making about 1D and 1E is they close down choices to Ministers in future Assemblies. An evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future Parliaments more options with regard to this Bill, so I think it's entirely consistent. I don't think the Minister, in putting in amendment 2, was trying to undermine my argument. Actually, I think she's being constructive by doing that, and I think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that's quite helpful, and its consequence will be to open up choices to future Parliaments, whereas my objection to 1D and 1E is they close those down. suzy davies am: Okay, well, as I say, I think, actually, the Deputy Minister's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this. Because I'm not 100 per cent sure I accept your argument, either, because it closes it down for the interim period if we don't move on with the Deputy Minister's suggestion—which I'll talk about now, actually. But I need some clarity on what you would allow this Assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report. Because you've been very clear that you don't want to accept the things that Janet Finch-Saunders has been talking about in a final report, and yet I can tell you we want to hear about these things. So, if you're in a position where you can give a commitment at Stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report, but that you will consult with, perhaps, this committee—I'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report, what we would want to see tested, then I'll be minded not to move amendment 2B. If you can't give me that reassurance, then I'm going to move it anyway and we'll return to it at Stage 3, if you don't mind. Just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable, and I do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to. Again, at Stage 3, I'm happy if you want to make three months six months, or something like that, but 'as soon as practicable' is open ended, and what you think is practicable may be very different from what I or my constituents think is practicable. So, I don't want to stick with what is practicable; I would like you to put a date on this. If it's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties, I think that's fairly reasonable as well, but I'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended. sian gwenllian am: Yes, I welcome adding to the Bill through amendment 2, and what you've said today also, that you're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the Bill, and to lay a report before the Assembly. I am interested in what Suzy is saying, and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods, and not say 'when it will be practicable'. Therefore, I would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the Minister regarding these issues. julie morgan am: Well, just to start off on that point, I think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss, I think I'm very happy to accept that. So, I'm happy to discuss that with you, and with the committee, before the third Stage. Well, just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised, on the issue of training now, I think Janet raised a number of points about training, and we do have an operations, procedures, processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work, and they are considering guidance and training requirements. There are many professional bodies represented on that group, many of whom I think have given evidence here today, and they've really got a chance to have their say. The officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at Stage 3, so there will be more information about training there. Generally, I think that all the contributions are very helpful, and I know they're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation. I can't support amendments 2A, 2C, and amendments 2E to 2K, because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the Bill already, or they're covered by the Government amendments that I've moved. But I do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough, multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services. Now, tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points, so there's no question there of having to wait; we'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes. Of course, I appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments, but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on? So, even if this is not a statutory commitment, what exactly from our list, our wish list here, would you be prepared to include in your evaluation? julie morgan am: Well, I would actually have thought all of them. Obviously, this is not a statutory thing I'm saying, but— suzy davies am: No, no, and this is not a— julie morgan am: Yes, but considering those points you've put forward, I think all of them have got a great deal of relevance. We will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you've suggested and, in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group, which is about developing methods to collect data, we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you've made on those issues. I'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—I think one of yours and it was one of Janet's, wasn't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage. Because I am sympathetic to your views on these matters, and I think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well. In line with the recommendations of the Finance Committee, further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at Stage 3. So, I think at this point I would ask that Members reject the non-Government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5, which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the Bill, with the exception, obviously, of those two amendments, which I'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote by show of hands. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 2A? suzy davies am: I move amendment 2A, yes. lynne neagle am: Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2E? janet finch-saunders am: I move. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2F? All those against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, can I see all those in favour of amendment 2G? All those against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2H? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Can I see all those in favour of 2J? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I'll therefore take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 2K? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 2B? suzy davies am: In view of the Deputy Minister's reassurances, I won't move this amendment today, but obviously I reserve the right to bring something back if we can't reach consensus. lynne neagle am: Does any other Member wish to move amendment 2B? Okay, no. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2? julie morgan am: I do. I move amendment 3 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group. Members will note that I've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the Bill, which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment. So, we're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here, basically. As a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a Welsh Minister to make an Order for commencement, the power to make transitory, transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the Bill coming into force would also be removed. So, I'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the Bill; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the Bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it, and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after Royal Assent. In fact, removing the power for the Welsh Ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by Order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended. These amendments are technical in nature and while I acknowledge that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied, their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied. The absence of an Assembly procedure does not mean that Ministers' decisions in relation to transitional powers cannot be scrutinised by the Assembly. This was a point made to CLAC and, as I say, their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power. Well perhaps, Deputy Minister, I can begin by saying that one person's technical issue is another person's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny. But I thank you for noting the Assembly's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this Bill—this time by CLAC, as you say. Moving this—and I'm glad actually that amendment 8, I think it was, has removed an Order provision and we're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here. I have to say that amendment 3A is something of a probing amendment, and I'll explain why now. Your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1, but it's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it's not a separate commencement power. And, actually, I've been listening to the rest of this debate, and thinking that, if you're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report, the chances are you're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas, I think. And I'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory, transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this Bill. I'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented, bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original, very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft. As I say, in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 I tabled this, in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the Assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1, when it comes into effect, onto the floor of the Assembly. Because while I completely accept that you've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on, it's still possible to do that without procedure, and so I have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure. Amendment 3A is a holding position, which we will return to you in Stage 3, because I think, again, this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you're looking for, because I think you probably need something that's beyond transitional, transitory and saving. lynne neagle am: Are there any other Members who wish to speak on this group? No. We don't actually think it's necessary to have wider powers, but we will keep this under review and at Stage 3, I think that—. When I was looking at this, I was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage, but I can understand that there may be links to other Bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers. So, basically, I don't think it is necessary to have wider powers, but I can assure you that we'll keep that in review coming up to Stage 3. suzy davies am: Can I just ask a question on the back of that? lynne neagle am: Will you take a brief intervention at the end, Minister? suzy davies am: Will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop? julie morgan am: I was going to end there, yes. suzy davies am: Right, okay, well, just before your full stop, would you just confirm that you're happy for us to discuss this before Stage 3? julie morgan am: Yes, very happy. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 3A? suzy davies am: I'll move it, yes. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, I'll take a vote by show of hands. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3? julie morgan am: I do. The committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. Can I welcome Members back? We will move on to group 4, which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding. As I outlined under amendments 2I and 2J, there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment. Now, it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic. As I have mentioned previously, these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services. Furthermore, the Welsh Local Government Association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are, those costs are met, because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. Now, during evidence, the Deputy Minister, when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated: 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate.' But you couldn't commit to a broad figure, instead telling us that: 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us.' And: 'We have to measure it as we go along.' Given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes, we only think it is fair for the Welsh Government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this Bill. Now, while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards, I note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by Welsh Government. Anticipating the Deputy Minister's response that few under this category, if any at all, would be affected by the Bill, we are pursuing a principle here, and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the Deputy Minister. The Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013: last year, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee found that the Wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of England's and one sixth of Holland's. Furthermore, the committee highlighted that the passing of the Act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes, but were constrained by the funding made available to them. Now, my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel Act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel Act to become a meaningful piece of legislation, and the same goes with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. This month, the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the Act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding. Outside of the Welsh Government's regional grant that cannot be spent on projects, councils often contribute through officer time or facilities, but resources and capacity to support those PSBs remain a key risk, as partners don't have the capacity to take on more. The reason that I wanted these amendments placed in here is I genuinely do not believe that you've even envisioned what, or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations, and certainly our local authorities and health boards, the impact this Bill is going to have. I can understand that the Member is concerned about the impact of this Bill on public services, but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the Bill that we've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this Bill before introduction. And as far as we're aware, no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation, and also comprehensively prepared for implementation. We've explored the published data, which is available from other countries, on the impact of measures they've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children. We've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in Ireland, New Zealand and Malta, who have legal systems similar to our own. And stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs, and I think we should trust their judgment on this. In fact, as this committee notes in its Stage 1 report, those delivering services on the front line have said, without exception, that 'this Bill will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales because it will make the law clear.' Sally Jenkins of the Association of Directors of Social Services said to this committee: 'In terms of thresholds for children’s services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. Jane Randall, chair of the National Independent Safeguarding Board Wales, said: 'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services, I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.' And Dr Rowena Christmas, Royal College of General Practitioners, said: 'I can't see it's going to lengthen consultations. I can't see that it's going to increase the number of consultations, and I don't think it's going to increase the number of referrals I make to the health visitor or to social services, because if I was worried, I'd make those referrals now regardless of the Bill.' I just want to say again that the Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault, which has formed part of the common law of England and Wales for a very long time. And social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted, including from health and education, so it's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them. As I've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments, we're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services, and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation. Welsh Government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications. I can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued, and I've asked officials to prepare a revised RIA, as recommended at Stage 2, and I expect to share an updated RIA with you in advance of Stage 3. Serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the Bill, but I think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given, particularly to this committee, from the professionals at the front line. What the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within Government, and it's not clear why, in the context of the evidence heard at Stage I, such provisions are necessary. I'm sure that Members will agree that future Governments need to be able to consider, within the context of the budget-setting process, what the priorities are, and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time, for example taking into account any issues that there are—UK Government actions, what happens in relation to Brexit, or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or Welsh society. Furthermore, as is the case now, the National Assembly for Wales scrutinises the Welsh Government budget annually, so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies, should it consider that this is required. I do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding, so I urge Members to reject these amendments, which I believe are unnecessary. janet finch-saunders am: Chair, could I ask a question? lynne neagle am: You can reply to the debate now, Janet, yes. When we were taking evidence, at an earlier stage, I noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across Wales. What discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead, the cabinet members, or, indeed, the head of service? I can speak from my own experiences, when going around my constituency, but when I've spoken to some of the family support groups, and, indeed, the departments themselves, they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision. They're already overstretched, and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden. So, how much have you engaged with them? julie morgan am: There's been extensive engagement. We've had meetings with the Association of Directors of Social Services, and they're represented on all our groups, and we're working very closely with them, because, of course, they represent all the local authorities. But I have to say, when I've been going round and meeting lots of different groups, the first thing they say is, 'I'm so glad that you're doing this', and they haven't mentioned any financial implications. But, obviously, we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up. I was hoping to see some commitment to—this Bill was going to go through, and it's one that could be implemented fully, because sufficient resources were there. Janet, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12? janet finch-saunders am: I move. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4? julie morgan am: Yes. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5? julie morgan am: Yes. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6? julie morgan am: Yes. lynne neagle am: I move amendment 6, then, in the name of the Deputy Minister. And I call Suzy Davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group. Amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing, but it's the lead amendment in the group, so I'll move it to begin the debate. You've said repeatedly, and I believe you, that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children. You could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement, but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law, where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted, but liability to prosecution, not just liability to civil sanctions. I'm sure you'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted, but that decision does not and cannot lie with you. You, like us, have no agency in this, because the powers and the duties of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service sit outside our competence. You cannot and we cannot, by law or otherwise, instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents. You've acknowledged to this committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee that revised CPS charging guidance and any other guidance on, for example, out-of-court disposals, are key to delivering your policy objectives. You'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group, is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like. So, you're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force, the frequency of the offence, any prior conviction, any prior reporting, not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced, or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest, let alone charging. And you argue that the rights of the child are what matter, and I agree with you here, but everybody, adult or child, has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure, and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage. I anticipate that that's unlikely, and I hope I'm wrong, but that's why Janet and I have tabled amendments 10 and 15, which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that CPS guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed. That reflects our recommendation 4, this committee's recommendation, as well as CLAC's recommendation 1. It gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment, even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded. I have to say, Minister, I think these points are so serious that I would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking Royal Assent for this Bill until the Assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and CPS. I'd have sought a Report Stage, if I could, so that we could consider that evidence. But I'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled, 10 and 15, so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately cannot control once this Bill has passed. Now, I know you've got the numbers to pass this Bill, whether you accept amendments or not, but I just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a Bill that changes a person's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that, and you're inviting this Assembly to fall into the same trap. Janet, do you want to speak? janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. As was clear during the committee's evidence sessions, present Welsh Government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage. For example, the capacity and reach of the Healthy Child Wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising, with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved, with 53.2 per cent of children in Wales reported as being contacted. Furthermore, existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas, such as Flying Start, and even the children's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children. Now, the Deputy Minister mentioned the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents. However, the Deputy Minister was challenged on this fact, that this is an online campaign only, and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake. Therefore, the Deputy Minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs. I've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during Stage 1. As a result, I have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law. My amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the Bill by Order of the Welsh Ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after Royal Assent. Up to then, we'd always said 'up to two years'—well, we're giving two years. This certainty will allow key partners, including the police, social services and the Crown Prosecution Service, to plan for changes to guidance, training and data-collection systems more effectively. My amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision, which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6, and we discussed those in the previous group. I've listened to the arguments put forward by Suzy Davies and Janet Finch-Saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled. These amendments are all about making the commencement of the Bill conditional on something else happening, whether it's waiting for the revision of Crown Prosecution Service guidance, or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system, or for the provision of parenting support services. As I set out in my letter of response to the Stage 1 report from the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, we've got good working relations with the CPS through the strategic implementation group, and we work very closely with them. But the CPS are an independent body, as Suzy Davies has said in her contribution, not answerable to Welsh Ministers or this legislature, and it's not appropriate for a Minister or the National Assembly to seek to influence the CPS guidelines. And, in fact, I think that these amendments—Suzy's amendments in particular—wouldn't just seek to influence the CPS, but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in Wales. I think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship, very close working relationship. And I think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence, or not, Assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty, I think, if we did go down that track, because I think this is very important Welsh legislation, which does have broad support across the Assembly. And I don't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation. I think the CPS is entirely independent of Government, and must be entirely independent of Government, and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance. In addition, you suggest we allow the UK Government to have a say in when Welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the Assembly. If these amendments passed, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to judge when section 1 could be commenced. This contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for, and raises huge uncertainty, which potentially jeopardises the Bill. And I want to assure you again, not only do we have good working relations with the CPS, but also very good working relationships with the police, who are, of course, the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues. My amendment to provide a two-year period between Royal Assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force. And then, when it comes to parenting support, the committee knows that I've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support, and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue. I have already said I will expand the age range of the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign, and I think—. For example, the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial, and that is a service that is for every child. And the expert group is considering what it'll recommend for the future, and it needs the time to be able to do that, to support the Bill as well as to support parenting more widely. So, as I said, I think these are important points that you have raised, but I don't think they are appropriate. So, I therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10, nor 13, 14 and 15. suzy davies am: Thank you very much, and thank you very much, Deputy Minister, as well. I'm disappointed that you haven't seen what's behind Janet Finch-Saunders's final amendment there, actually. Maybe it's something we'll raise again with you at Stage 3, or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then. But I want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that I've raised and your assertion that we're giving, or attempting to give, power to the CPS here. And this is why I go back to where my contribution to this started, and it's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or, sorry, to try and protect children's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence. This Bill—and, actually, you've said a couple of times in your response today that it's important that it's commenced on a certain date. My argument is: it shouldn't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence. And, while I claim no mischief on the part of the CPS or the police—obviously I don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the CPS, should they wish to do it, or indeed the police with their own guidelines, putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence. And, because of that, I ask you to consider, or balance, actually, two important things here: one is the rights of the child, obviously at the forefront of your argument on this, which I would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion; and, actually, the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you cannot allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing. The relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family, but that's something you ought to protect in what you're trying to do here, and by leaving it open, as you say, to completely different—sorry, undevolved, two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me. I know this isn't going to stop your Bill going forward, but I really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at Stage 3, because leaving, effectively, the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control, despite your great relationship with them, should worry us all as a legislature. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9? suzy davies am: Oh, because of the voting order—. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7? julie morgan am: I do. lynne neagle am: I move amendment 7 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8? julie morgan am: I do. Well, that has brought us to the end of our amendments, so can I thank the Deputy Minister and her officials for their attendance? As usual, you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy. Standing Orders make provision for the Deputy Minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of the amendments agreed today. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, following our meeting on 2 October. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services updating the committee on the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy. And paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services regarding early childhood education and care, following the session that we held on 2 October. Item 4, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting

The Deputy Minister expressed her opinion on amendment 2C, stating that it was unnecessary and conflicted with the priority of implementing the Bill. She believed that the amendment was not required as they were already assessing the effectiveness of the awareness raising. Janet Finch-Saunders then spoke about amendments 2C to 2K, which focused on the Deputy Minister's amendment 2 regarding the preparation of a published report on the impact of abolishing the defense of reasonable punishment. Suzy Davies disagreed with the Deputy Minister, stating that the amendment should not affect the commencement date. After a vote, amendments 2C to 2K were rejected, and amendment 2 was accepted. The purpose of amendment 2C was to request a report on the awareness-raising campaign, which would be laid before the Assembly before section 1 commenced. This report was important to fully understand the impact of the campaign, as outlined in amendment 2D.

Summarize the discussions and opinions on the amendments in group 2 regarding the duty to report on the effect of the legislation.

Actually , I think he he redirected it to everybody also so the PDA mikes have a big bunch of energy at at five hertz where this came up was that I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . I I have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , in fact it 's not , of of the effects of room reverberation . And then we had this other discussion about whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? But Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: Right . But then I had some other thing discussions with him phd b: For the P D professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , many other problems could ha happen . professor a: A simple thing to do is he he he has a I forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . professor a: The other thing that I don't know the answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is if it 's if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program , which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP then there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: What 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: Oh . I don't know I wrote this a while ago phd b: Is it like twenty ? professor a: Something like that . I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . So , it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . I don't know in the in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: . We we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for . He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so we don't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . And then again if it 's depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . It 's just not a great example because not only isn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . professor a: So , it doesn't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of five hertz noise , so . So it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate . So , but , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man . So I think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . One of the things I was , I was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is O K , but the thing is the eyes and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it doesn't seem like it 's that bad because there 's many features that are still preserved . So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . Another , I was thinking of was taking some spectral slices , like like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the , the reverberation does make it does change that . grad c: W w what d what do you mean ? professor a: Well , all the recognizers look at frames . professor a: So it 's , yeah , at one point in time or twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . And if you look at phd b: You could just you could just throw up , you know , the some MFCC feature vectors . You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . Well , that 's why I saying either Well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: I 'm just kidding . professor a: but but I think the thing is you wanna phd b: I don't mean a graph . Yeah , at first I had a remark why I am wondering why the PDA is always so far . Since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together the clean low - pass downsampling , upsampling , the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , and also the delay issue so that We considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . professor a: But it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: It 's not professor a: right ? phd f: Yeah . It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but I think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . For Italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . I don't I don't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: - huh . professor a: Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: Y professor a: Right . professor a: So then if you take your changes phd f: It 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but from this se seventy - eight percent recognition rate system , I could change the transition probabilities for the the first and it will end up to eighty - nine also . phd f: By using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the HTK script . phd b: th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: Yeah . From point phd f: Even tenth of a percent ? phd b: I I 'm sorry phd f: Well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from You change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: Oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: . phd b: alright ? so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . phd b: And it 's I think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about it just being very phd f: phd b: and I think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very phd f: Mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it I guess . professor a: Well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: I think you 're not allowed to Yeah . But changing it to point five I think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . phd f: Yeah , but even if you use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: Yeah . We only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , . phd b: right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice phd f: Yeah . I think the reason is , yeah , I not I it was in my mail I think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . Well , in for the mismatched case everything is using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and Well . phd b: I did notice something phd f: So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: Somebody , I think it was Morgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . phd b: And there are almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . phd b: I did one quick experiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just f for most of the For for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and it it it didn't have a r any significant effect at the medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . And I think also just seeing what we saw in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different . phd b: And so in the case where it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . I think you know if we make a better silence model I think that will help a lot too for a lot of these cases so but one one thing I I wanted to check out before I increased the number of mixtures per state was in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . Seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . phd b: And so you know in trying to run these experiments I notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . And so one of the things I did was I compiled HTK for the Linux machines professor a: phd b: cuz we have this one from IBM that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: Right . phd b: and so now I 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . And if I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . And if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . But if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I increased the number of Gaussians . professor a: But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: Yeah . But actually actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . Which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is Well I well what what What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: So it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: No , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: Yeah but what is that you can have a huge improvement on the H HMK 's , like five percent absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement relative to the the baseline is small professor a: So they do improvement in terms of accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: . improvement ? professor a: So phd f: No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: OK . professor a: So if you have ten percent error and you get five percent absolute improvement then that 's fifty percent . So what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . Sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: Yeah . That 's why I 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate and and not not at at accuracies . phd b: it 's not it 's not that different , right ? , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: Yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . professor a: If you had ninety percent correct and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . professor a: So just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . professor a: What 's a little bit ? Like phd f: Like , it 's difficult to say because again I 'm not sure I have the phd b: Hey Morgan ? Do you remember that Signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? Is that still valid ? I I 've been using that . I just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: Yeah , I 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he he was a little more rigorous , as I recall . s phd f: well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point O four . For Finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . And for Spanish we are we were at ninety - five point O five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: And is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . Because nnn , well we don't have complete result , but the filter So the filter with the shorter delay hurts on Italian well - matched , which And , yeah . And the other things , like downsampling , upsampling , don't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: phd f: I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but I don't know . There is first this thing , and then the yeah , I computed the like , the confidence level on the different test sets . professor a: But OK , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: So . Do the does the new filter make things better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: Yeah . OK , so I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then you 're not quite sure what to make of it . But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , I would say . So at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . What I was asking , though , is are what 's what 's the level of communication with the O G I gang now , about this and phd f: Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . We are working on our side on other things like also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , another spectral substraction . It 's going professor a: Is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: Yeah . As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and But we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . Sounds like a great idea but but I think that that he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline . Anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ? phd f: S professor a: Or , is that what is that phd f: Yeah we are We are trying to to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits , professor a: Right . phd f: and , well , some people from OGI are working on a paper for this , but there is also the special session about th Aurora which is which has an extended deadline . professor a: So the deadline When 's the deadline ? When 's the deadline ? phd f: ? I think it 's the thirteenth of May . So , I I think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue but but I think it 's probably , on s from what Stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: Well I could at least Well , I 'm going to be out next week but I could try to look into like this CVS over the web . That seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: phd b: so maybe if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people don't it won't interfere with their regular work , then maybe that would be good . And if you 're interested in using CVS , I 've set it up here , phd b: Oh great . grad c: j phd b: I used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions . Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz the , actually the the It made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: Maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: No , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but you can't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . professor a: They hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: - huh . professor a: but that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . But for the the visual , just , you know , I 'd like to have , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: Yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: I noticed that in the pictures . phd b: I thought " hey , you know th " I My initial thought was " this is not too bad ! " professor a: Right . But you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see " well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . professor a: So you could that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah . The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . It looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: Right . Since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have reduced high frequencies . But the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and we want to show that , in some obvious way . " but I I just After after they were put in there I didn't really look at them anymore , cuz I just they were different . So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: The other thing that we had in there that I didn't like was that the most obvious characteristic of the difference when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the cuts that we have there actually don't correspond to the full wave form . It 's just the first I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . But it it 's it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . So we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , I think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . phd f: So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the Wall process , which contains LDA on - line normalization . phd f: And so we started to look at at things like this , which is , well , it 's Yeah . And the sentence contain only one word , which is " Due " And it can't clearly be seen . phd f: Where is the word ? phd b: This is this is , grad e: . phd f: This is a plot of C - zero , when we don't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . phd f: then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . phd f: and And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: phd b: Can I ask what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ? professor a: Normalizes the variance . phd f: So it phd b: No , I understand that , phd f: You you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd f: phd b: No , I understand what it is , but , what does it what 's what is phd f: Yeah but . professor a: Well , because everything If you have a system based on Gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . professor a: So if there 's an overall reason You know , it 's like if you were doing image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , there was a lot of light and and in some , there was low light , phd b: professor a: And the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? So what if one set of pictures was taken so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night ten times , another time it went thr i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: Oh , OK . I guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . So if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the So every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . professor a: And so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: I see . So would the major effect is that you 're gonna get is by normalizing the means , professor a: That 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help First - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: And it may help to do the variance . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between E and B phd b: OK . professor a: if it just so happens that the E 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: professor a: or the variation in it was larger , than with the B 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: So the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . And it and this professor a: i is if If you have a good voice activity detector , isn't isn't it gonna pull that out ? phd f: Yeah . Well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what we 've already observed . phd b: I don't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . What I notice is that , while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . phd f: But the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . phd b: But for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: And Yeah , but here phd b: You 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: Yeah . For I th I think that it perhaps it shows that the parameters that the voice activity detector should use have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . phd f: Well , y professor a: So you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . You also could do it by spect spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: Yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on Italian HM and with these two kinds of parameters . phd b: Where 's th phd f: But the fact is that the voice activity detector doesn't work on channel one . phd b: Where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? Is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: ? professor a: Spectral subtraction , I guess . Is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: It 's applied the on , yeah , something like this , phd b: Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one . professor a: Can I phd f: So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD . Can I ask a , a sort of top - level question , which is " if if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? " phd f: phd f: It 's just Well it 's another They are trying to u to use the the Ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . When we do spectral subtraction , actually , I think that this is the the two last figures . phd b: Speech is more what ? phd f: Well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . phd f: Well , if you compare the first figure to this one Actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers you clearly see that the difference between the C - zero of the speech and C - zero of the noise portion is larger . but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of C - zero . And what they did at OGI is just they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think Yeah . So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but I think with different different system and professor a: Right . , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th one way or the other phd f: professor a: but I 'm I 'm just wondering if on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we won't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd b: if you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . I don't know if that 's true or not , but I could see how phd f: Mmm . , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which isn't quite what you 'd like it to be . And then weren't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? That was Was it There was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: Yeah . And they are t I think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call TRAP or generalized TRAP . Do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next phd f: It 's in June . Yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about the VAD V A Ds performing quite differently ? That that So . This there was this experiment of " what if we just take the baseline ? " phd f: Mmm . professor a: set of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different V A And it looks like the the French VAD is actually better significantly better . If the use the small VAD I th I think it 's on I think it 's easy to do better because it doesn't work at all . He Actually , I think that he say with the good VAD of from OGI and with the Alcatel VAD . phd f: Yeah but I it 's I think you were talking about the other mail that used VAD on the reference features . professor a: it was enough better that that it would account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: And perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the VAD . professor a: H Hynek will be back in town the week after next , back back in the country . phd d: Also is Stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about voiced - unvoiced phd f: phd f: Yeah , my feeling is that actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: Right . phd f: Yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . We don't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but Cuz I have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some It 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . phd f: there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: Right . When you have noise there is no if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: but but phd b: Isn't there some other phd f: S phd b: d phd f: So I think that it it would be good Yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: I was just gonna say isn't there aren't aren't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , by looking at , you know , I guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: Well , I think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: Mmm . phd b: w ah you know , even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: Mmm . phd f: yeah , so yeah , I think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . We were thinking about like using ideas from from Larry Saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the FFT and professor a: U phd f: Larry Saul could be an idea . We were are thinking about just kind of taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on making use of voicing information to help in reducing the noise . phd f: Yeah ? professor a: So what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . professor a: And you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . But the thing is that you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . professor a: And that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: Yeah . It was kind of like RASTA was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: Mmm . We 've actually back when Chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced classification using a bunch of these , phd f: But professor a: and and works OK . professor a: But the thing is that you can't given the constraints of this task , we can't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we can't you know affect the the distributions or anything . phd b: Didn't the head dude send around that message ? Yeah , I think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that I I 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people shouldn't put their own in or something . professor a: I guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do KLT 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent So , if it 's if it 's not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , looking at harmonicity or something like that , if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: professor a: take the log of that or pre pre pre - nonlinearity , phd f: Yeah . i if professor a: and do the KLT on the on on that , phd f: Yeah . And then that would be phd f: Yeah , well , I was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah So you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: R Right . If you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: professor a: so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and then you only use for this one distinction . professor a: And and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got the probability of the finer categories on the other side . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: Because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: Yeah . phd f: Well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to to go together very well . I professor a: Or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't doesn't hurt too much or something . professor a: But it but , anyway I think I was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: Yeah . professor a: cuz I was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing In fact if you get if you go into a harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and phd f: I know that when have people have done sort of the obvious thing of taking your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or that it hasn't my impression it hasn't particularly helped . professor a: But I think that 's that 's a question for this you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . Was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: And and it may not have been noisy conditions . I I don't remember the example but it was it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually phd f: But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT professor a: - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d , this voicing bit would help in in terms of frame classification . professor a: Why don't you why don't you just do it with Aurora ? phd f: Mmm . professor a: Just any i in in each in each frame phd f: Yeah , but but B but we cannot do the cheating , this cheating thing . Cuz we don't have Well , for Italian perhaps we have , but we don't have this labeling for Aurora . professor a: But you could you can you can align so that It 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: But the problem is that their models are all word level models . phd b: You So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . grad e: S But we could use the the noisy version that TIMIT , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the TI - digits portion of Aurora . phd f: Well , I guess I guess we can we can say that it will help , but I don't know . If this voicing bit doesn't help , I think we don't have to to work more about this because professor a: . professor a: and different ta it was probably Resource Management or something , I think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as I recall . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: It also professor a: one oh phd b: Yeah , the though I think there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . Well back twenty years ago when I did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . professor a: And we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . professor a: And then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . professor a: So I would I would believe that it was quite likely that looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: And the all the the SpeechCorders ? what 's the idea behind ? Cuz they they have to Oh , they don't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: The modern ones don't do a a simple switch . phd f: They just work on the code book professor a: They work on the code book excitation . They try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . One of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system . Actually I I s we didn't I guess I wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought I had was looking at the language model that 's used in the HTK recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which That model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: Right . I thought " well I 'm gonna just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . phd b: And the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the Aurora training data . So it 's either one , four , five , six , up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . So I I just for the heck of it , I made a little grammar which , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . So there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: phd b: So it was you know , I I didn't have any weights of these paths or I didn't have anything like that . phd b: And I played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but I couldn't go anywhere . I thought " well if I only allow " Yeah , I guess I should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . phd b: So to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things <doc-sep>So , before we get started with the , technical part , I just want to review what I think is happening with the our data collection . Th - this this is s should be im it isn't There 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . What we think is gonna happen is that , in parallel starting about now we 're gonna get Fey to , where you 're working with me and Robert , draft a note that we 're gonna send out to various CogSci c and other classes saying , " here 's an opportunity to be a subject . " And then there 'll be a certain number of , hours during the week which she will be available and we 'll bring in people . , roughly how many , Robert ? We d Do we know ? grad c: fifty was our sort of our first professor b: OK . So , we 're looking for a total of fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with with that . And , so , I guess there 's a plan to have a meeting Friday afternoon , with , Jane , and maybe Liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . But what I 'd like to do , if it 's O K , is to s to , as I say , start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . The week after that 's Spring Break , and maybe we 'll look for them some subjects next door grad c: Yeah . Also , F both Fey and I will , do something of which I may , eh kindly ask you to to do the same thing , which is we gonna check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects . So , if you happen to be sort of in a non - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects We also considered using the Berkeley High School and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff . But I I will just make a first draft of the , note , the " write - up " note , send it to you and Fey and then professor b: And why don't you also copy Jane on it ? grad c: And , Are we Have we concurred that , these these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ? professor b: th I think they 're necessary . professor b: and I think we 're just gonna use it as it is , and grad c: N . There 's one tricky part about , they have the right I The last paragraph " if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . " OK ? Now that , we had to be included for this other one which might have , meetings , you know , about something . , so what I 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying " I don't want to see the final transcript " . professor b: And if they don't If they say " no , I 'm not willing to sign that " , then we 'll show them the final transcript . professor b: That , yeah , so we might actually , S i Jane may say that , " you know , you can't do this " , " on the same form , we need a separate form . I 'd I 'd I 'd like to , e e , add an a little thi eh a thing for them to initial , saying " nah , do I don't want to see the final transcript . professor b: But other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , rec you know . grad c: And , and now it 's We have a complete English parser that does everything the German parser does . grad e: What did you end up having to do ? , wha Was there anything interesting about it at all ? grad c: Well , if you , eh grad d: We 'll show you . professor b: Yeah , we can show us , grad e: or are we gonna see that ? professor b: right ? grad c: Well , w w We d The first we did is we we tried to to do change the the " laufen " into " run " , or " running " , or " runs " . grad c: So this sentence sentence is parses the p the same output , grad e: . grad c: If if you 'd add add Today and Evening , it 'll add Time or not . grad e: And the t and the time , right ? grad c: So it i it does look at that . grad c: But all the rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser . professor b: So , you can sho You you Are are you gonna show us the little templates ? grad c: And grad e: S grad c: Yeah . I I also have it running here , grad e: The former end g " Oh , I see . grad c: so if I do this now , you can see that it parsed the wonderful English sentence , " Which films are on the cinema today evening ? " But , . professor b: No i grad c: It could be " this evening , which which films are on the cinema " , or " running in the cinema , which " , " today evening " , i " Is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? " grad e: OK . professor b: Well grad c: Ge - elaborate , or , more or less , professor b: Actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable German orders which aren't allowable English orders and so forth . So it it doe I it These u these optional elements , grad c: It is not professor b: it 's it 's actually a set , not a sequence ? grad c: Yeah . We were I was afraid that , professor b: Oh ! grad e: So it really is key word matching , basically . What 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? Which films are showing ? grad d: Are pl playing at the cinema ? grad c: playing ? grad d: Yeah . grad e: Tonight ? grad d: I changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account . grad e: This this evening ? phd f: Actually , you would say , " which films are on tonight ? " grad d: You want to get it ? Or is di was it easy to get it ? grad c: . grad c: Except that we d w we don't have this , time information here now , which is , Oh . And , you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ? grad d: Yeah , I changed those sentences to make it , more , idiomatic . And , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . So , if you want to look at the templates , they 're conveniently located in a file , " template " . I had to change , @ @ " Spielfilm " to " film " , " Film " to " movie " , cinem " Kino " to " cinema " to " today " heu " heute " to " today " , grad e: Huh . grad c: evening " Abend " to " evening " professor b: Capitalized as well grad a: . professor b: Y i grad d: One thing I was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the M - three - L basically ? grad c: Yep . grad c: And that 's that 's the next step , professor b: p grad c: but we 'll get to that in a second . professor b: So so , the point is , if it says " this " and " see " , it also will work in " see " and " this " ? grad e: S professor b: In the other order ? grad c: Yeah . professor b: with those two key words ? grad c: Should we try it ? professor b: " This is the one I want to see " or whatever . grad c: It 's correct , but I don't know where it gets it from . grad d: it 's sort of grad c: And " see this " is exactly the same thing . grad d: One thing I was wondering was , those percentage signs , right ? So , why do we even have them ? grad c: Yep . grad d: Because if you didn't have them grad c: I 'll tell you why . grad c: And the value of the score is , v I assume , I guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score it is . , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . but we 'll Mmm , that means we may need two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes , professor b: Alright . grad c: And the next thing I would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be too difficult either , is to say , " OK let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the the mapping of of , words to the M - three - L but we also wanted to change add a new sentence type and and make up some some new M - three - L s " professor b: Yep . And , grad d: So , that 's grad c: that 's shouldn't be too tough . Yeah , so where are those those functions " Action " , " Goodbye " , and so on , right ? Are they actually , Are they going to be called ? , are they present in the code for the parser ? grad c: Yeah . So what it probably does , is it takes the , Is this where it is ? This is already the XML stuff ? This is where it takes its own , syntax , and converts it somehow . Where is the grad d: What are you looking for ? grad c: where it actually produces the the XML out of the , parsed stuff . You mean , where the where the act how the action " Goodbye " maps into something grad d: Yeah . So when it encounts encounters " Day " , it will , activate those h classes in the in the XML stuff But , I saw those actions , the " Goodbye " stuff somewhere . So whatever n this does this is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ? professor b: ? Oh , yeah . grad c: And , So , whenever it it encounters " Goodbye " , which we can make it do in a second , here grad a: That function automatically generates an initialized XML structure ? grad c: I grad d: I think each of those functions act on the current XML structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a a l a field to it , or something . professor b: cause some of them there were other actions , that that s seemed to step state variables somewhere , grad d: Right . professor b: and confirm that it 's grad c: W we - grad d: Oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree , professor b: I think that 's right . grad c: e mmm , well i There is a feature called " Discourse - Status " , grad d: When there 's a feature . grad c: And so whenever I just say , " Write " , it will it will put this in here . professor b: Oh , so it always just Is it So it Well , go back , then , cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the XML . grad c: So , this professor b: e I 'm not sure e that grad c: well , we we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , " Goodbye " , causes it to c to create basically an " Action Goodbye - End - Action " . grad c: Now , if we know that " Write " produces a " Feature Discourse - Status Confirm Discourse - Status " . But there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put Goodbye in Content , but , Confirm in Features ? grad c: Oh . It d it n That 's because grad d: So So , it 's not just that it 's adding that field . professor b: It 's it 's the It 's under what sub - type you 're doing it . grad c: Well , sometimes it m Sometimes , i grad d: Well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably . grad c: it grad a: Well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right ? professor b: grad a: So it 's just a shorthand . And there is , here , a reference So , this tells us that whatever is has the ID " zero " is referenced here by @ @ the restriction seed and this is exa " I want " What was the sentence ? professor b: " I want two seats here . Here , we change and so , we Here we add something to the Discourse - Status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before And , and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema . grad a: So then , whatever takes this M - three - L is what actually changes the state , not the Yeah , OK . I definitely think it 's It 's worth the exercise of trying to actually add something that isn't there . grad c: ? professor b: Disc grad c: Sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing . Then the next thing we talked about is actually , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that . So , this is , what I got today is the the new M - three - L for , the Maps , professor b: Yep . grad c: and with some examples So , this is the XML and this is sort of what it will look like later on , even though it you can't see it on on this resolution . And this is what it sort of is the the structure of Map requests , also not very interesting , and here is the more interesting stuff for us , is the routes , route elements , and , again , as we thought it 's really simple . We have @ @ simple " from objects " and " to objects " and so forth , points of interest along the way And , I asked them whether or not we could , First of all , I was little bit It seemed to me that this m way of doing it is sort of a stack a step backwards from the way we 've done it before . professor b: S grad c: So these are these are professor b: So these are these are your friends back at EML . There 's there 's not seven committees , or anything , right ? grad c: No . And every every element of that e r r f of that Every segment we call a " route element " . And so , from A to B we cut up in three different steps , and every step has a " from object " where you start , a " to object " where y where you sort of end , and some points of interest along the way . What w I was sort of missing here , and , maybe it was just me being too stupid , is , I didn't sort of get the the notion of the global goal of the whole route . And I suggested that they should n be k , kind enough to do s two things for us , is one , Also allocating , some tags for our Action Schema Enter - Vista - Approach , and And also , since you had suggested that that , we figure out if we ever , for a demo reason , wanted to shortcut directly to the g GIS and the Planner , of how we can do it . Now , what 's the state of the art of getting to entrances , what 's the syntax for that , how get getting to vista points and calculating those on the spot . Wherever you 'll find a route planner it n does nothing but get to the closest point where the street network is at minimal distance to the geometric center . Let , I want a a Again , outside of m almost managerial point , You 're in the midst of this , so you know better . But it seems to me it 's probably a good idea to li minimize the number of , change requests we make of them . Does this does this make sense to you guys ? It you 're you 're doing the the interaction but it seemed to me that what we ought to do is come up with a , something where you , And I I don't know who 's mok working most closely on it . , take what they have , send it to everybody saying " this is what they have , this is what we think we should add " , OK ? and then have a d a an iteration within our group saying " , well " OK ? And get our best idea of what we should add . Is i or , I don't know does this make sense to you ? Or grad c: Yeah . Especially if we want Sort of , what I my feeling was eh we we sort of reserved something that has a r eh an OK label . grad c: I w No matter how we want to call it , this is sort of our playground . grad c: And if we get something in there that is a structure elaborate and and and and and complex enough to to to maybe enable a whole simulation , one of these days , that would be u the the perfect goal . What are the thl class of things we think we might try to do in a year or two ? How how would we try to characterize those and what do we want to request now that 's leave enough space to do all that stuff ? grad c: professor b: And so that sounds like a great thing to do as the priority item , as soon as we can do it . professor b: So y so you guys will send to the rest of us a version of , this , and the , description grad a: With sugge yeah , suggested improvements and professor b: Well b Yeah . So , the the Not everyone , reads German , so if you 'd grad a: Mmm . Then , with some sug s suggestions about where where do we go from here ? grad a: OK . But for the moment just , t for this class of of things , we might want to try to encompass . This is this is everything that that , you know , we might want to do in the next couple years . So I just this XML stuff here just has to do with Source - Path - Goal type stuff , in terms of traveling through Heidelberg . grad a: So , but this O Is the domain greater than that ? professor b: No . It 's beyond Source - Path - Goal , but I think we don't need to get beyond it @ @ tourists in Heidelberg . professor b: It seems to me we can get all the complexity we want in actions and in language without going outside of tourists in Heidelberg . OK ? But you know , i depending on what people are interested in , one could have , tours , one could have , explanations of why something is is , you know , why why was this done , or , no there 's no end to the complexity you can build into the , what a tourist in Heidelberg might ask . professor b: So , at least unless somebody else wants t to suggest otherwise I think the general domain we don't have t to , broaden . And if there 's something somebody comes up with that can't be done that way , then , sure . W we 'll we 'll look at that , but I 'd be s I I 'd be surprised at if there 's any important issue that that And , if if you want to , push us into reference problems , that would be great . professor b: and you know , what what are these things referring to ? Not only anaphora , but , more generally the , this whole issue of , referring expressions , and , what is it that they 're actually dealing with in the world ? grad c: professor b: And , again , this is li in the databa this is also pretty well formed because there is an ontology , and the database , and stuff . professor b: There aren't really deep mysteries about , what w what things the system knows about . professor b: And a l and a lot and and anaphora , and pronouns , grad c: Nuh . grad c: Now , we hav the the whole Unfortunately , the whole database is , in German . We have just commissioned someone to translate some bits of it , IE the e the shortest k the the more general descriptions of all the objects and , persons and events . But did y I I think there will be great because the reference problem really is not trivial , even if you have such a g well - defined world . grad a: Could you give me an example of a reference problem ? so so l I can make it more concrete ? grad c: Well How do I get to the Powder - Tower ? We sort of t think that our bit in this problem is interesting , but , just to get from Powder - Tower to an object I ID in a database is also not really trivial . phd f: Or or if you take something even more scary , " how do I get to the third building after the Tower ? the Ple - Powder - Tower ? " grad a: Mmm . Or , you know , the church across from City Hall , or grad a: Or the re the restaurant where they wear lederhosen ? grad c: Or the phd f: Right . grad c: O or or tower , or this tower , or that building , or phd f: Right . Trying to professor b: Or you can say " how " you know , " how do I get back ? " grad a: Yeah , yeah . And , again , it 's just a question of which of these things , people want to dive into . What , I think I 'm gonna try to do , and I guess , pwww ! let 's say that by the end of spring break , I 'll try to come up with some general story about , construction grammar , and what constructions we 'd use and how all this might fit together . grad c: u u u u That 's what strikes me , that we sort of the de g , small Something , maybe we should address one of these days , is to That most of the work people actually always do is look at some statements , and and analyze those . grad c: But the whole i is it is it really relevant that we are dealing mostly with , sort of , questions ? professor b: Oh , yeah ? grad c: you know professor b: Well , yeah , I d grad c: And this is It seems to me that we should maybe at least spend a session or or brainstorm a little bit about whether that l this is special case in that sense . You know Did we ever find m metaphorical use in in questions in in that sense , really ? professor b: Yeah . grad c: " Who got kicked out of France ? " phd f: Muh professor b: Yeah , or , you know . " Wh - why is he why is he pushing for promotion ? " grad c: Nuh . professor b: er , just pick pick any of them and just do the eh grad c: professor b: So I don't I don't think , it 's at all difficult , to convert them to question forms that really exist and people say all the time , And sort of we don't know how to handle them , too . Right ? , it 's I d It We don't know how to handle the declarative forms , @ @ really , and , then , the interrogative forms , ah - oh . grad d: Ooo ! professor b: Nancy , it looked like you were s grad e: Oh . it 's just that that the goals are g very different to cases So we had this problem last year when we first thought about this domain , actually , was that most of the things we talked about are our story understanding . grad e: we 're gonna have a short discourse and the person talking is trying to , I don't know , give you a statement and tell you something . And here , it 's th grad c: Help you create a mental model , blah - blah - blah . grad e: And then here , y you are j , the person is getting information and they or may not be following some larger plan , you know , that we have to recognize or , you know , infer . And th th the their discourse patterns probably don't follo follow quite as many logical connec professor b: Right . No , I think that 's one of things that 's interesting , is is in this sort of over - arching story we we worked it out for th as you say , this the storytelling scenario . Cuz for a while we were thinking , " well , how can we change the , data to sort of illicit tha illicit , actions that are more like what we are used to ? " But obviously we would rather , you know , try to figure out what 's what 's , you know professor b: Well , I don't know . , maybe maybe that 's what we 'll do is is s u e We can do anything we want with it . professor b: OK , and the one for next , summer is just half done and then the other half is this , " generation thing " which we think isn't much different . professor b: So once that 's done , then all the rest of it is , sort of , you know , what we want to do for the research . And we can w we can do all sorts of things that don't fit into their framework at all . professor b: If we can use all the , execution engines , then we can , you know , really try things that would be too too much pain to do ourselves . So , if we want to turn it into u understan standing stories about Heidelberg , we can do that . , that would just be a t a grad c: Or , as a matter of fact , we need and if we if we ' r eh take a ten year perspective , we need to do that , because w e w a Assuming we have this , we we ta in that case we actually do have these wonderful stories , and historical anecdotes , professor b: Yeah . So , th the database is huge , and if we want to answer a question on that , we actually have to go one step before that , and understand that . grad c: And so , this has been a a a Deep Map research issue that was is is part of the unresolved , and to - do 's , and something for the future , is how can we sort of run our our text , our content , through a machine that will enable us , later , to retrieve or answer e questions more sensibly ? phd f: Mwa S Who 's going ? phd f: So , So , I was just going to ask , so , what is the the basic thing that that you are , obligated to do , by the summer before w y c we can move professor b: Ah ! OK . So , what happened is , there 's this , eh , Robert was describing the There 's two packages there 's a , quote parser , there 's a particular piece of this big system , which , in German , takes these t sentence templates and produces XML structures . professor b: The other thing is , at the other end , roughly at the same level , there 's something that takes , X M L structures , produces an output XML structure which is instructions for the generator . professor b: OK ? And then there 's a language generator , and then after that a s a synthesizer that goes from an XML structure to , language generation , to actual specifications for a synthesizer . Eh , but again , there 's one module in which there 's one piece that we have to convert to English . And that But as I say , this is all along was viewed as a kind of a m a minor thing , necessary , but but not phd f: Right . professor b: And much more interesting is the fact that , as part of doing this , we we are , you know , inheriting this system that does all sort of these other things . professor b: Not precisely what we want , and that 's that 's wh where it it gets difficult . So , e enough of that , but I , mmm , the e sort of , Johno and I will take up that responsibility , and , get a first draft of that . grad c: y you guys sort of started fighting , on the Bayes - net " Noisy - OR " front ? grad d: . Yeah , I thought I should , talk a little bit about that , because that might be a good , sort of architecture to have , in general for , problems with , you know , multiple inputs to a node . And what 's the other one ? so that just we know what the d agenda is ? grad c: the Wu paper , I think maybe professor b: Oh , yeah . , so I I 've been in contact with Wu , so , probably let 's put that off till I I till I understand better , what he 's doing . It 's just a little embarrassing cause all this was in his thesis and I was on his thesis committee , and , so , I r really knew this at one time . professor b: But , I I It 's not only Is Part of what I haven't figured out yet is is how all this goes together . professor b: squealing sound ? grad d: Or shall I just use this ? professor b: It 's probably just as easy . grad d: Hey ! grad a: I was envying you and your pocket cause I don't have one . grad e: It was a quick one , huh ? professor b: That 's why they invented " pocket T 's " . grad d: So , Recall that , we want to have this kind of structure in our Bayes - nets . Namely , that , You have these nodes that have several bands , right ? So Does , they sort of the typical example is that , these are all a bunch of cues for something , and this is a certain effect that we 'd like to conclude . So , Like , let 's just look at the case when , this is actually the the final action , right ? So this is like , you know , touch , grad c: Y grad d: or grad c: E - EVA grad d: Sorry . grad c: grad d: Yeah , E - EVA , right ? grad c: Yeah . grad d: Enter , V View , Approach , right ? phd f: W what was this ? It i i i ehhh , i ehhh . professor b: Wri - write it out for for grad d: So , this is Yeah . So , we 'd like to take all these various cues , right ? phd f: Like the army . grad d: So this one might be , say , grad e: New terminology ? phd f: Yeah . grad c: ? grad d: Well , let me pick a random one grad e: I haven't heard that before . grad d: and say , I don't know , it could be , like This isn't the way it really is , but let me say that , suppose someone mentioned , admission fees Ah , it takes too long . If the thing is a landmark , you know , then there 's another thing that says if if it 's closed or not , at the moment . Right ? And the , problem that we were having was that , you know , given N - nodes , there 's " two to the N " Given N - nodes , and furthermore , the fact that there 's three things here , we need to specify " three times " , " two to the N " probabilities . For example , they could be " time of day " , in which case we could , say , you know , " Morning , afternoon , evening , night " . And , that 's a lot of probabilities to put here , which is kind of a pain . Where should I put this ? So , the idea is that , Let 's call these , C - one , C - two , C - three , and C - four , and E , for Cause and Effect , I guess . Well , actually , the idea , first of all , is that each of these things has a quote - unquote distinguished state , which means that this is the state in which we don't really know anything about it . So right ? So , for example , if we don't really know if the thing is a landmark or not , Or , i if that just doesn't seem relevant , then that would be th sort of the Disting - the Distinguish state . It 's a really , you know , if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee , you know , if they didn't talk about it , that would be the Distinguish state . grad c: S so , this is a fanciful way of saying " default " ? grad d: So Yeah , yeah . grad d: So , the idea is that , you have these intermediate nodes , right ? E - one , E - two , E - three and E - four ? professor b: So , this is the Heckerman paper you 're working with ? Good . So The idea is that , each of these EI is represents what this would be if all the other ones were in the distinguish state . Right ? So , for example , suppose that the person , suppose the thing that they talked about is a landmark . Then , this would be W The this would just represent the probability distribution of this , assuming that this cue is turned on and the other ones just didn't apply ? So , you know , if it is a landmark , and no none of the other things really ap applicable , then this would represent the probability distribution . So maybe in this case Maybe we just t k Maybe we decide that , if the thing 's a landmark and we don't know anything else , then we 're gonna conclude that , They want to view it with probability , you know , point four . They want to enter it with probability , with probability point five and they want to approach it probability point one , say Right ? So we come up with these l little tables for each of those OK . And the final thing is that , this is a deterministic function of these , so we don't need to specify any probabilities . We just have to , say what function this is , right ? So we can let this be , G of E - one comma E - two . The important point is that There is a a a general kind of idea of shortcutting the full CPT . And So I gave eh Bhaskara a copy of this , eh sort of " ninety - two " paper . professor b: So , I u w , yo you Have you read it yet ? grad d: you can Yeah , you should take a look at it , I guess . professor b: And One of the questions just come at Bhaskara is , " How much of this does JavaBayes support ? " grad d: Yeah , it 's a good question . grad d: And , In a sense it sup we can make it supported by , manually , entering , you know , probabilities that are one and zeros , right ? professor b: Right . So the little handout that The little thing that I sent I sent a message saying , here is a way to take One thing you could do , which is kind of s in a way , stupid , is take this deterministic function , and use it to build the CPT . So , if Ba - JavaBayes won't do it for you , grad c: Mmm . and , what I sent out about a week ago , was an idea of how to do that , for , evidence combination . So one of one function that you could use as your " G function " is an e e Evidence - Combining . So you just take the , if each of th if each of the ones has its own little table like that , then you could take the , strength of each of those , times its little table , and you 'd add up the total evidence for " V " , " E " , and " A " . professor b: I i i No , no But I 'm saying is There There is a w , if y if if you decide what 's what is appropriate , is probablistic evidence combination , you can write a function that does it . It 's a pui it 's actually one of the examples he 's got in there . But , anyway , s skipping skipping the question of exactly which functions now is it clear that you might like to be able to shortcut the whole conditional probability table . grad c: in some it seems very plausible in some sense , where we will be likely to not be observe some of the stuff . That 's one of the problems , is , W Is is , Where would th Where would it all come from ? grad c: Yeah . grad d: What ? grad c: I if it 's a a a discar Discourse Initial Phrase , we will have nothing in the discourse history . A are you saying that we 'll not be able to observe certain nodes ? That 's fine . The f the the the Bayes - nets in general are quite good at saying , " if you have no current information about this variable just take the prior for that . So , if you don't have any information about the discourse , you just use your priors of of whatever eh the discourse , eh , basically whatever w it 's Probabilistically , whatever it would be . But the other problem is , how do you fill in all these numbers ? And I think that 's the one he was getting at . So , specifically in this case you have to f have this many numbers , grad e: Yeah . grad d: whereas in this case you just have to have three for this , three for this , three for this . grad d: So you have to have just three N ? So , this is much smaller than that . professor b: grad e: So , you don't need da data enough to cover , nearly as much stuff . grad a: So , really , i What a A Noisy - OR seems to kind of " neural - net - acize " these Bayes - nets ? professor b: Eh well to some No , no . So , " Noisy - OR " is a funny way of referring to this , because the Noisy - OR is only one instance . So Eh grad a: Well , my point was more that we just eh With the neural net , right , eh , things come in , you have a function that combines them and professor b: Yeah , it it Tha - that 's true . It is a is also more neural - net - like , although , it isn't necessarily sum , s you know , sum of weights or anything like that . professor b: i You could have , like the Noisy - OR function , really is one that 's essentially says , take the max . So And , I thi I think that 's the standard way people get around the There are a couple other ones . But , The I think we definitely I think it 's a great idea tha to to pursue that . It you you can always see easily that that I 'm not grasping everything correctly , but what seemed attractive to me in im in the last discussion we had , was that we find out a means of of getting these point four , point five , point one , of C - four , not because , you know , A is a Landmark or not , but we we we label this whatever object type , and if it 's a garden , it 's point three , point four , point two . If it 's , a town hall , it 's point two , point three , point five . And we don't want to write this down necessarily every time for something but , let 's see . grad d: It 'll be students Where else would it be stored ? That 's the question . So , i is Well , let me say something , guys , cuz there 's not There 's a pretty point about this we might as well get in right now . professor b: So that , if you know about it let 's say , a particular town hall that , it 's one that is a monument , then , that would be stored there . If you don't , you look up the hierarchy , Eh so , you you you may or So , then you 'd have this little vector of , you know , Approach Mode or EVA Mode . professor b: or , link to or but but in any case i View it logically as being in the ontology . professor b: And , if yo As I say , if you know about a specific object , you put it there . So , when we get to Wu , The - e We 'll see w what he says about that . professor b: And , then if you If it isn't there , it 's higher , and if you don't know anything except that it 's a b it 's it 's a building , then up at the highest thing , you have the pr what amounts to a prior . If you don't know anything else about a building , you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level , grad d: Right . professor b: So , that 's a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology . And it seems to me the obvious thing to do , unless we find a reason to do something different . professor b: Does this make sense to you ? grad d: So professor b: Bhask - ? grad d: Yeah . So , we are but we we 're not doing the ontology , so we have to get to whoever is doing the u ultimately , professor b: Indeed . So , that 's another thing we 're gonna need to do , is is , to , either grad d: we have to get them to professor b: We 're gonna need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology , or add fields , or some way to associate Or , w It may be that all we can do is , some of our own hash tables that it Th - the th you know , there 's always a way to do that . It 's a just a question of grad a: Yeah , hash on object name to , you know , the probabilities or whatever . And , so , i grad c: But it 's , Well , it strikes me as a What For If we get the mechanism , that will be sort of the wonderful part . And then , how to make it work is is the second part , in the sense that , m the guy who was doing the ontology eh , eh , s ap apologized that i it will take him another through two to three days because they 're having really trouble getting the upper level straight , and right now . The reason is , given the craw bet , the the the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and , on all history , they 're really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the EML projects , and that 's , sort of a tough cookie , a little bit tougher than they figured . But , nevertheless , it 's going to be there by n by , next Monday and I will show you what 's what some examples from that for towers , and stuff . And , what I don't think is ever going to be in the ontology , is sort of , you know , the likelihood of , eh , people entering r town halls , and looking at town halls , and approaching town halls , especially since we are b dealing with a case - based , not an instance - based ontology . So , there will be nothing on on that town hall , or on the Berkeley town hall , or on the Heidelberg town hall , it 'll just be information on town halls . professor b: Well , they they they How ar What are they gonna do with instances ? grad c: But what professor b: you y grad c: Well , that 's Hhh . , th the first , they had to make a design question , " do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not , that just has the types ? " professor b: OK . grad c: And , so , since the d decision was on types , on a d simply type - based , we now have to hook it up to instances . this is professor b: But what i What is SmartKom gonna do about that ? grad c: one professor b: Cuz , they have instances all the time . grad c: Yeah , but the ontology is really not a SmartKom thing , in in and of itself . professor b: I understand , but is anybody doing anything about it ? grad c: professor b: OK . grad c: No , but th the r eh I th I still think that there is enough information in there . So , in a sense , " I " used as Institutions for some s in some sense or the other . When we see what people have done , it may turn out that the easiest thing to do is to build a a separate thing that that just pools i i Like , i i it it may be , that , the the instance w That we have to build our own instance , things , that , with their types , grad d: Yeah , it 's Right , we can just assume professor b: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type . So we build a little data structure And so what we would do in that case , is , in our instance gadget have our E V And if we d there isn't one we 'd get the type and then have the E V As for the type . professor b: So , we 'd have our own little things so that whenever we needed one , we 'd just use the ontology to get the type , grad d: professor b: and then would hash or whatever we do to say , " ah ! grad d: professor b: If it 's that type of thing , and we want its EVA vector , pppt - pppt ! it 's that . And then But , the combination functions , and whether we can put those in Java Bayes , and all that sort of stuff , is , is the bigger deal . grad a: We could just steal the classes in JavaBayes and then interface to them with our own code . grad d: professor b: Well , I me ye eh , yeah , the grad d: That requires understanding the classes in JavaBayes , I guess . , you 've been around enough to Just ? grad a: Well , it depends on professor b: there 's this huge package which which may or may not be consistent and you know . It 's b It It 's an inter sort of a kind of a it The thing is , it 's kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form , and if you say , " hey , we 're gonna make a different kind of data structure to stick in there " grad a: Well , no , but that just means there 's a protocol , right ? That you could professor b: It may or may not . That 's the question is " to what extent does it allow us to put in these G functions ? " And I don't know . grad a: Well , no , but What I the So you could have four different Bayes - nets that you 're running , and then run your own write your own function that would take the output of those four , and make your own " G function " , is what I was saying . professor b: Yeah , that 's fine if it 's if it comes only at the end . But suppose you want it embedded ? grad a: Well , then you 'd have to break all of your Bayes - nets into smaller Bayes - nets , with all the professor b: Oh , that Yeah , that 's a truly horrible way to do d it . But , at that point you may say , " hey , Java Bayes isn't the only package in town . Let 's see if there 's another package that 's , eh , more civilized about this . " grad d: professor b: Now , Srini is worth talking to on this , grad d: Mmm . professor b: cuz he said that he actually did hack some combining functions into But he doesn't remember at least when I talked to him , he didn't remember whether it was an e an easy thing , a natural thing , or whether he had to do some violence to it to make it work . I don't see why the , combining f functions have to be directly hacked into , they 're used to create tables so we can just make our own little functions that create tables in XML . professor b: Well , I say that 's one way to do it , is is to just convert it int into a into a C P T that you zip It 's blown up , and is a it 's , it 's huge , but it doesn't require any data fitting or complication . I don't think , the fact that it blown u blows up is a huge issue in the sense that , OK . So say it blows up , right ? So there 's , like , the you know , ten , f ten , fifteen , things . It said , " Here 's the way you 'd take the logical f G function and turn it into a CPT . So , I will , e e before next week , @ @ p push push some more on on this stuff that Dekai Wu did , and try to understand it . , you 'll make a couple of more copies of the Heckerman paper to give to people ? grad d: p Sure . And I I 'll I 'll think s through this , eh getting EVA vectors dynamically out of ontologies one more time because I s I I I 'm not quite sure whether we all think of the same thing or not , here . professor b: Alright , great ! And , Robert , thank you for coming in under He he 's been sick , Robert . grad a: I was thinking maybe we should just cough into the microphone and see if they can't th see if they can handle it <doc-sep>phd a: And what was that , Morgan ? What project ? professor b: the , TORRENT chip . professor b: we went through it Jim and I went through old emails at one point and and for two years there was this thing saying , yeah , we 're we 're two months away from being done . phd a: So , should we just do the same kind of deal where we go around and do , status report kind of things ? OK . phd a: Any objection ? Do y OK , M professor b: All in favor phd a: Do you want to start , Morgan ? Do you have anything , or ? professor b: I don't do anything . I No , I I 'm involved in discussions with with people about what they 're doing , but I think they 're since they 're here , they can talk about it themselves . Why don't you go ahead , Barry ? grad f: you 're gonna talk about Aurora stuff , per se ? phd a: OK . Well , this past week I 've just been , getting down and dirty into writing my my proposal . I just finished a section on , on talking about these intermediate categories that I want to classify , as a as a middle step . And , I hope to hope to get this , a full rough draft done by , Monday so I can give it to Morgan . phd a: So , is the idea you 're going to do this paper and then you pass it out to everybody ahead of time and ? grad f: Right , right . So , y you write up a proposal , and give it to people ahead of time , and you have a short presentation . phd a: Have you d ? I was just gonna ask , do you want to say any a little bit about it , grad f: Y s phd a: or ? Mmm . , a little bit about ? phd a: Wh - what you 're what you 're gonna You said you were talking about the , particular features that you were looking at , grad f: Oh , the the phd a: or grad f: Right . Well , I was , I think one of the perplexing problems is , for a while I was thinking that I had to come up with a complete set of intermediate features in intermediate categories to to classify right away . , build a system that , classifies these , these feat , these intermediate categories using , multi - band techniques . Look at then I would look at the errors produced in the phoneme recognition and say , OK , well , I could probably reduce the errors if I included this extra feature or this extra intermediate category . phd a: So you 're gonna use TIMIT ? grad f: for that for that part of the the process , yeah , I would use TIMIT . grad f: that 's that 's , that 's just the ph the phone recognition task . So , I would mov I would then shift the focus to , something like Schw - Switchboard , where I 'd I would be able to , to model , intermediate categories that span across phonemes , phd a: grad f: not just within the phonemes , themselves , and then do the same process there , on on a large vocabulary task like Switchboard . , and for that for that part I would I 'd use the SRI recognizer since it 's already set up for for Switchboard . phd a: It 's about a month from now ? grad f: It 's a it 's a month and and a week . phd a: So , you want to go next , Dave ? And we 'll do grad e: Oh . And , we we got an improvement , in word error rate , training on the TI - digits data set and testing on Meeting Recorder digits of , six percent to four point five percent , on the n on the far - mike data using PZM F , but , the near - mike performance worsened , from one point two percent to two point four percent . And , wh why would that be , considering that we actually got an improvement in near - mike performance using HTK ? And so , with some input from , Andreas , I have a theory in two parts . , first of all HTK sorry , SR - the SRI system is doing channel adaptation , and so HTK wasn't . , so this , This mean subtraction approach will do a kind of channel normalization and so that might have given the HTK use of it a boost that wouldn't have been applied in the SRI case . So those finer - grained acoustic models could be more sensitive to the artifacts in the re - synthesized audio . And me and Barry were listening to the re - synthesized audio and sometimes it seems like you get of a bit of an echo of speech in the background . And so that seems like it could be difficult for training , cuz you could have different phones lined up with a different foreground phone , depending on the timing of the echo . So , I 'm gonna try training on a larger data set , and then , eh , the system will have seen more examples o of these artifacts and hopefully will be more robust to them . professor b: I had another thought just now , which is , remember we were talking before about we were talking in our meeting about , this stuff that some of the other stuff that Avendano did , where they were , getting rid of low - energy sections ? , if you if you did a high - pass filtering , as Hirsch did in late eighties to reduce some of the effects of reverberation , Avendano and Hermansky were arguing that , perhaps one of the reasons for that working was ma may not have even been the filtering so much but the fact that when you filter a an all - positive power spectrum you get some negative values , and you gotta figure out what to do with them if you 're gonna continue treating this as a power spectrum . So if you imagine a a waveform that 's all positive , which is the time trajectory of energy , and , shifting it downwards , and then getting rid of the negative parts , that 's essentially throwing away the low - energy things . And it 's the low - energy parts of the speech where the reverberation is most audible . You know , you have the reverberation from higher - energy things showing up in So in this case you have some artificially imposed reverberation - like thing . , you 're getting rid of some of the other effects of reverberation , but because you have these non - causal windows , you 're getting these funny things coming in , at n And , what if you did ? , there 's nothing to say that the the processing for this re - synthesis has to be restricted to trying to get it back to the original , according to some equation . professor b: And one of the things you could do is , you could do some sort of VAD - like thing grad e: professor b: and you actually could take very low - energy sections and set them to some some , very low or or near zero value . , I 'm just saying if in fact it turns out that that these echoes that you 're hearing are , grad e: - huh . professor b: or pre - echoes , whichever they are are are , part of what 's causing the problem , you actually could get rid of them . professor b: so that if you made a mistake you were more likely to keep in an echo than to throw out speech . phd g: what is the reverberation time like there ? grad e: In thi in this room ? phd g: On , the the one what the s in the speech that you are you are using like ? grad e: Y Yeah . professor b: so it 's these are just microphone this micro close microphone and a distant microphone , he 's doing these different tests on . I think it 's I would guess , point seven , point eight seconds f , R T grad f: ! professor b: something like that ? But it 's you know , it 's this room . But the other thing is , he 's putting in w I was using the word " reverberation " in two ways . He 's also putting in , a he 's taking out some reverberation , but he 's putting in something , because he has averages over multiple windows stretching out to twelve seconds , which are then being subtracted from the speech . And since , you know , what you subtract , sometimes you 'll be you 'll be subtracting from some larger number and sometimes you won't . professor b: So you can end up with some components in it that are affected by things that are seconds away . , and if it 's a low energy compo portion , you might actually hear some funny things . grad e: O o one thing , I noticed is that , the mean subtraction seems to make the PZM signals louder after they 've been re - synthesized . So I was wondering , is it possible that one reason it helped with the Aurora baseline system is just as a kind of gain control ? Cuz some of the PZM signals sound pretty quiet if you don't amplify them . I don't see why why your signal is louder after processing , because yo grad e: Yeah . professor b: I don't think just multiplying the signal by two would have any effect . , I think if you really have louder signals , what you mean is that you have better signal - to - noise ratio . phd c: Well , well professor b: So if what you 're doing is improving the signal - to - noise ratio , then it would be better . professor b: But just it being bigger if with the same signal - to - noise ratio grad e: It w i i it wouldn't affect things . phd c: Well , the system is use the absolute energy , so it 's a little bit dependent on on the signal level . professor b: So if the if the if you change in both training and test , the absolute level by a factor of two , it will n have no effect . phd a: Did you add this data to the training set , for the Aurora ? Or you just tested on this ? grad e: . Did I w what ? phd a: Well , Morgan was just saying that , as long as you do it in both training and testing , it shouldn't have any effect . But I didn't I 'm not sure if it made the clean ti TI - digits any louder . If it 's if it 's like , if it 's trying to find a a reverberation filter , it could be that this reverberation filter is making things quieter . , there 's there 's nothing inherent about removing if you 're really removing , grad e: Nuh - huh . phd a: I wonder if there could be something like , for s for the PZM data , phd c: Eh phd a: you know , if occasionally , somebody hits the table or something , you could get a spike . I 'm just wondering if there 's something about the , you know , doing the mean normalization where , it it could cause you to have better signal - to - noise ratio . It it i maybe i If , Subtracting the the mean log spectrum is is is like dividing by the spectrum . So , depending what you divide by , if your if s your estimate is off and sometimes you 're you 're you 're getting a small number , you could make it bigger . professor b: So , it 's it 's just a a question of there 's It it could be that there 's some normalization that 's missing , or something to make it grad e: professor b: y you 'd think it shouldn't be larger , but maybe in practice it is . So , you trained it on TI - digits ? But except this , it 's exactly the same system as the one that was tested before and that was trained on Macrophone . Right ? So on TI - digits it gives you one point two percent error rate and on Macrophone it 's still O point eight . grad e: If you 're talking about the Macrophone results that Andreas had about , a week and a half ago , I think it 's the same system . So you use VTL - , vocal tract length normalization and , like MLLR transformations also , grad e: phd c: and professor b: I 'm sorry , was his point eight percent , er , a a result on testing on Macrophone or or training ? phd c: all that stuff . grad e: That 's phd c: It was training on Macrophone and testing yeah , on on meeting digits . I I 've just been text testing the new Aurora front - end with well , Aurora system actually so front - end and HTK , acoustic models on the meeting digits and it 's a little bit better than the previous system . professor b: So , what w ? phd c: And phd g: With the with the HTK back - end ? What we have for Aurora ? phd c: Yeah . phd g: I know in the meeting , like phd c: On the meeting we have two point seven . phd c: we have the new LDA filters , and I think , maybe I didn't look , but one thing that makes a difference is this DC offset compensation . , eh Do y did you have a look at at the meet , meeting digits , if they have a DC component , or ? grad e: I I didn't . , any all of the mikes have the DC removal some capacitor sitting right in that bias it . professor b: typi you know , unless Actually , there are instrumentation mikes that that do pass go down to DC . And you can get , I think it was I think it was in the Wall Street Journal data that that I can't remember , one of the DARPA things . professor b: we didn't we didn't know about for a while , while we were messing with it . And , the interesting thing that I tried was , Adam and Morgan had this idea , since my original attempts to , take the mean of the phase spectra over time and normalize using that , by subtracting that off , didn't work . , so , well , that we thought that might be due to , problems with , the arithmetic of phases . They they add in this modulo two pi way and , there 's reason to believe that that approach of taking the mean of the phase spectrum wasn't really mathematically correct . So , what I did instead is I took the mean of the FFT spectrum without taking the log or anything , and then I took the phase of that , and I subtracted that phase off to normalize . professor b: You see , all he has to do is go back and reverse what he did before , and he 's really got something . phd a: Well , could you take what was left over and then subtract that ? professor b: Ex - exactly . phd g: Oh , it 's professor b: Just listen very carefully to what I say and do the opposite . I 'm more interested in trying to figure out what 's still the difference between the SRI system and the Aurora system . So , I think I will maybe train , like , gender - dependent models , because this is also one big difference between the two systems . , the other differences were the fact that maybe the acoustic models of the SRI are more SRI system are more complex . But , Chuck , you did some experiments with this and phd a: It didn't seem to help in the HTK system . professor b: Well , it sounds like they also have he he 's saying they have all these , different kinds of adaptation . phd a: Like they do , I 'm not sure how they would do it when they 're working with the digits , phd c: The vocal tr phd a: but , like , in the Switchboard data , there 's , conversation - side normalization for the non - C - zero components , phd c: Yeah . phd c: So , it might be it might be better with it might be worse if the channel is constant , phd a: Yeah . phd g: And the acoustic models are like - k triphone models or or is it the whole word ? phd c: SRI it 's it 's tr grad f: SRI . So there 's there 's these kind of , pooled models and and they can go out to all sorts of dependencies . professor b: They have tied states and I think I I I don't real I 'm talk I 'm just guessing here . And maybe see with Andreas if Well , I I don't know how much it helps , what 's the model . phd a: So so the n stuff on the numbers you got , the two point seven , is that using the same training data that the SRI system used and got one point two ? phd c: That 's right . grad e: You know , the the Aurora baseline is set up with these , this version of the clean training set that 's been filtered with this G - seven - one - two filter , and , to train the SRI system on digits S - Andreas used the original TI - digits , under U doctor - speech data TI - digits , which don't have this filter . professor b: So is that ? , are are these results comparable ? So you you were getting with the , Aurora baseline something like two point four percent on clean TI - digits , when , training the SRI system with clean TR digits TI - digits . And , so , is your two point seven comparable , where you 're , using , the submitted system ? phd c: Yeah . grad e: W w it was one one point two phd c: Ye grad e: with the SRI system , professor b: I 'm sorry . professor b: OK , so the comparable number then , for what you were talking about then , since it was HTK , would be the , two point f phd c: It was four point something . Right ? The HTK system with , b grad e: D d professor b: Oh , right , right , right , right . phd c: MFCC features grad e: Do you mean the b ? The baseline Aurora - two system , trained on TI - digits , tested on Meeting Recorder near , I think we saw in it today , and it was about six point six percent . And another thing I I maybe would like to do is to just test the SRI system that 's trained on Macrophone test it on , the noisy TI - digits , professor b: Yeah . But I wonder if it 's just because maybe Macrophone is acoustically closer to the meeting digits than than TI - digit is , which is TI - digits are very clean recorded digits professor b: phd c: and phd a: You know , it would also be interesting to see , to do the regular Aurora test , phd c: f s phd a: but use the SRI system instead of HTK . phd c: So we don't professor b: You 'd have to train the SRI system with with all the different languages . phd a: So , like , comple professor b: It 'd be a lot of work . phd a: I guess the work would be into getting the the files in the right formats , or something . phd a: Because when you train up the Aurora system , you 're , you 're also training on all the data . professor b: That 's true , but I think that also when we 've had these meetings week after week , oftentimes people have not done the full arrange of things phd a: professor b: because on on whatever it is they 're trying , because it 's a lot of work , even just with the HTK . professor b: So , it 's it 's a good idea , but it seems like it makes sense to do some pruning phd a: professor b: first with a a test or two that makes sense for you , phd a: Yeah . But , just testing on TI - digits would already give us some information about what 's going on . , the next thing is this this VAD problem that , So , I 'm just talking about the the curves that I I sent I sent you so , whi that shows that when the SNR decrease , the current VAD approach doesn't drop much frames for some particular noises , which might be then noises that are closer to speech , acoustically . I They were supp Supposedly , in the next evaluation , they 're going to be supplying us with boundaries . First of all , the boundaries might be , like we would have t two hundred milliseconds or before and after speech . professor b: Do we ? , is there some reason that we think that 's the case ? phd c: And No . professor b: But maybe we 'll get some insight on that when when , the gang gets back from Crete . professor b: And then the thing is if if they really are going to have some means of giving us fairly tight , boundaries , then that won't be so much the issue . phd g: Because w we were wondering whether that VAD is going to be , like , a realistic one or is it going to be some manual segmentation . And then , like , if if that VAD is going to be a realistic one , then we can actually use their markers to shift the point around , the way we want professor b: phd g: to find a , rather than keeping the twenty frames , we can actually move the marker to a point which we find more suitable for us . phd g: But if that is going to be something like a manual , segmenter , then we can't use that information anymore , phd c: phd g: because that 's not going to be the one that is used in the final evaluation . There 's an , I think it 's still for even for the evaluation , it might still be interesting to work on this because the boundaries apparently that they would provide is just , starting of speech and end of speech , at the utterance level . phd c: So phd g: with some pauses in the center , provided they meet that whatever the hang - over time which they are talking . professor b: So if you could get at some of that , phd c: So professor b: although that 'd be hard . It might be useful for , like , noise estimation , and a lot of other things that we want to work on . So I did I just started to test putting together two VAD which was was not much work actually . , I im re - implemented a VAD that 's very close to the , energy - based VAD that , the other Aurora guys use . phd c: and , detect detecting the first group of four frames that have a energy that 's above this threshold , and , from this point , tagging the frames there as speech . And it really removes it , still o on the noises where our MLP VAD doesn't work a lot . phd c: professor b: Cuz I would have thought that having some kind of spectral information , phd c: and professor b: you know , in the old days people would use energy and zero crossings , for instance , would give you some better performance . Right ? Cuz you might have low - energy fricatives or or , stop consonants , or something like that . So , your point is will be to u use whatever professor b: Oh , that if you d if you use purely energy and don't look at anything spectral , then you don't have a good way of distinguishing between low - energy speech components and nonspeech . professor b: just as a gross generalization , most nonsp many nonspeech noises have a low - pass kind of characteristic , some sort of slope . And and most , low - energy speech components that are unvoiced have a a high - pass kind of characteristic phd c: professor b: you know , at the beginning of a of a of an S sound for instance , just starting in , it might be pretty low - energy , phd c: Whereas , a a lot of rumble , and background noises , and so forth will be predominantly low - frequency . , you know , by itself it 's not enough to tell you , but it plus energy is sort of phd c: Yeah . professor b: if you look up in Rabiner and Schafer from like twenty - five years ago or something , that 's sort of what they were using then . It it might be that what I did is so , removes like low , low - energy , speech frames . Because the way I do it is I just I just combine the two decisions so , the one from the MLP and the one from the energy - based with the with the and operator . So if the energy - based dropped dropped low - energy speech , mmm , they they are they are lost . phd c: But s still , the way it 's done right now it it helps on on the noises where it seems to help on the noises where our VAD was not very good . But but , I guess what you 're saying is that the the MLP - based one has the spectral information . professor b: Well , you can imagine phd c: The way I use a an a " AND " operator is So , it I , professor b: Is ? phd c: The frames that are dropped by the energy - based system are are , dropped , even if the , MLP decides to keep them . phd a: No professor b: but , I guess in principle what you 'd want to do is have a , a probability estimated by each one and and put them together . phd a: Something that that I 've used in the past is , when just looking at the energy , is to look at the derivative . phd a: But , I 'm I 'm trying to remember if that requires that you keep some amount of speech in a buffer . phd c: Well , actually if I don't maybe don't want to work too much of on it right now . I just wanted to to see if it 's what I observed was the re was caused by this this VAD problem . , which I 've just started yesterday to launch a bunch of , twenty - five experiments , with different , values for the parameters that are used . So , it 's the Makhoul - type spectral subtraction which use an over - estimation factor . So , we substr I subtract more , noise than the noise spectra that is estimated on the noise portion of the s , the utterances . And after subtraction , I also add a constant noise , and I also try different , noise , values and we 'll see what happen . But st still when we look at the , Well , it depends on the parameters that you use , but for moderate over - estimation factors and moderate noise level that you add , you st have a lot of musical noise . On the other hand , when you subtract more and when you add more noise , you get rid of this musical noise but maybe you distort a lot of speech . So the next thing , maybe I what I will try to to do is just to try to smooth mmm , the , to smooth the d the result of the subtraction , to get rid of the musical noise , using some kind of filter , or phd g: Can smooth the SNR estimate , also . So , to get something that 's would be closer to what you tried to do with Wiener filtering . phd c: It phd g: And it 's phd c: Maybe you can phd g: go ahead . And there are there were some bugs in the program , so I was p initially trying to clear them up . Because one of the bug was I was assuming that always the VAD , the initial frames were silence . So the it wasn't estimating the noise initially , and then it never estimated , because I assumed that it was always silence . phd c: So , in some cases s there are also phd g: SpeechDat - Car Italian . And , so once it was cleared , I ran a few experiments with different ways of smoothing the estimated clean speech and how t estimated the noise and , eh , smoothing the SNR also . And so the the trend seems to be like , smoothing the current estimate of the clean speech for deriving the SNR , which is like deriving the Wiener filter , seems to be helping . So we 'll have , like , a few results where the estimating the the More smoothing is helping . And , so I 'm I 'm trying a few more experiments with different time constants for smoothing the noise spectrum , and smoothing the clean speech , and smoothing SNR . So , one is fixed in the line , like Smoothing the clean speech is is helping , so I 'm not going to change it that much . But , the way I 'm estimating the noise and the way I 'm estimating the SNR , I 'm just trying trying a little bit . So , that h And the other thing is , like , putting a floor on the , SNR , because that if some In some cases the clean speech is , like when it 's estimated , it goes to very low values , so the SNR is , like , very low . So , I 'm thinking of , like , putting a floor also for the SNR so that it doesn't vary a lot in the low - energy regions . The results are , like So far I 've been testing only with the baseline , which is which doesn't have any LDA filtering and on - line normalization . So it 's just VAD , plus the Wiener filter , plus the baseline system , which is , just the spectral , the mel sp mel , frequency coefficients . And the other thing that I tried was but I just took of those , Carlos filters , which Hynek had , to see whether it really h helps or not . And it 's it seems to be like it 's not hurting a lot by just blindly picking up one filter which is nothing but a four hertz a band - pass m m filter on the cubic root of the power spectrum . So there must be something that I can that can be done with that type of noise compensation also , which I guess I would ask Carlos about that . , how how he derived those filters and and where d if he has any filters which are derived on OGI stories , added with some type of noise which what we are using currently , or something like that . So maybe I 'll professor b: This is cubic root of power spectra ? phd g: Yeah . professor b: So , if you have this band - pass filter , you probably get n you get negative values . phd g: So it has , like the spectrogram has , like , it actually , enhances the onset and offset of , the the begin and the end of the speech . So it 's there seems to be , like , deep valleys in the begin and the end of , like , high - energy regions , professor b: phd g: So , those are the regions where there are , like when I look at the spectrogram , there are those deep valleys on the begin and the end of the speech . There are a few very not a lot of because the filter doesn't have a really a deep negative portion , so that it 's not really creating a lot of negative values in the cubic root . So , I 'll I 'll s may continue with that for some w I 'll I 'll Maybe I 'll ask Carlos a little more about how to play with those filters , and but while making this Wiener filter better . professor b: last week you were also talking about building up the subspace stuff ? phd g: Yeah . I I I would actually m m didn't get enough time to work on the subspace last week . phd a: How about you , Carmen ? phd d: Well , I am still working with , eh , VTS . And , one of the things that last week , eh , say here is that maybe the problem was with the diff because the signal have different level of energy . professor b: ? phd d: And , maybe , talking with Stephane and with Sunil , we decide that maybe it was interesting to to apply on - line normalization before applying VTS . But then we decided that that 's it doesn't work absolutely , because we modified also the noise . I don't hav I don't this is I didn't do the experiment yet to apply VTS in cepstral domain . professor b: The other thing is So so , in i i and Not and C - zero would be a different So you could do a different normalization for C - zero than for other things anyway . , the other thing I was gonna suggest is that you could have two kinds of normalization with with , different time constants . So , you could do some normalization s , before the VTS , and then do some other normalization after . phd d: Well , we s decide to m to to obtain the new expression if we work in the cepstral domain . It 's k it 's k It 's quite a lot It 's a lot of work . phd d: And I want to know if if we have some feeling that the result I I would like to know if I don't have any feeling if this will work better than apply VTS aft in cepstral domain will work better than apply in m mel in filter bank domain . Well , you 're I think you 're the first one here to work with VTS , so , maybe we could call someone else up who has , ask them their opinion . phd c: Actually , the VTS that you tested before was in the log domain and so the codebook is e e kind of dependent on the level of the speech signal . phd d: Yeah ? phd c: And So I expect it If if you have something that 's independent of this , I expect it to it to , be a better model of speech . And then you have one number which is very dependent on the level cuz it is the level , phd d: phd d: Ye phd c: Because it 's like first doing general normalization phd d: Yea phd c: and then noise removal , which is phd d: Yeah . We I was thinking to to to estimate the noise with the first frames and then apply the VAD , professor b: phd d: We we see Well , I am thinking about that and working about that , professor b: Yeah . , one of the things we 've talked about maybe it might be star time to start thinking about pretty soon , is as we look at the pros and cons of these different methods , how do they fit in with one another ? Because we 've talked about potentially doing some combination of a couple of them . Maybe maybe pretty soon we 'll have some sense of what their characteristics are , phd d: - <doc-sep>grad b: So I guess this is more or less now just to get you up to date , Johno . , so we thought that , We can write up , an element , and for each of the situation nodes that we observed in the Bayes - net ? So . What 's the situation like at the entity that is mentioned ? if we know anything about it ? Is it under construction ? Or is it on fire or something happening to it ? Or is it stable ? and so forth , going all the way , f through Parking , Location , Hotel , Car , Restroom , @ @ Riots , Fairs , Strikes , or Disasters . grad c: So is This is A situation are is all the things which can be happening right now ? Or , what is the situation type ? grad b: That 's basically just specifying the the input for the w what 's grad c: Oh , I see y Why are you specifying it in XML ? grad b: . I just don't know if this is th l what the Does This is what Java Bayes takes ? as a Bayes - net spec ? grad b: No , because if we we 're sure gonna interface to We 're gonna get an XML document from somewhere . Right ? And that XML document will say " We are able to We were able to observe that w the element , @ @ of the Location that the car is near . grad b: So this is just , again , a an XML schemata which defines a set of possible , permissible XML structures , which we view as input into the Bayes - net . Right ? grad c: And then we can r possibly run one of them transformations ? That put it into the format that the Bayes n or Java Bayes or whatever wants ? grad b: Yea - Are you talking are you talking about the the structure ? grad c: Well it grad b: when you observe a node . grad c: When you when you say the input to the v Java Bayes , it takes a certain format , grad b: grad c: So you could just Couldn't you just run a grad b: XSL . grad b: That 's That 's no problem , but I even think that , once Once you have this sort of as running as a module Right ? What you want is You wanna say , " OK , give me the posterior probabilities of the Go - there node , when this is happening . " Right ? When the person said this , the car is there , it 's raining , and this is happening . And with this you can specify the what 's happening in the situation , and what 's happening with the user . So , this is a grad c: So this is just a specification of all the possible inputs ? grad b: Yep . So , we have , for example , the , Go - there decision node grad c: OK . grad b: which has two elements , going - there and its posterior probability , and not - going - there and its posterior probability , because the output is always gonna be all the decision nodes and all the the a all the posterior probabilities for all the values . grad c: And then we would just look at the , eh , Struct that we wanna look at in terms of if if we 're only asking about one of the So like , if I 'm just interested in the going - there node , I would just pull that information out of the Struct that gets return that would that Java Bayes would output ? grad b: pretty much , yes , but I think it 's a little bit more complex . As , if I understand it correctly , it always gives you all the posterior probabilities for all the values of all decision nodes . So , when we input something , we always get the , posterior probabilities for all of these . grad b: So there is no way of telling it t not to tell us about the EVA values . grad c: Yeah , wait I agree , that 's yeah , use oh , Yeah , OK . grad b: So so we get this whole list of of , things , and the question is what to do with it , what to hand on , how to interpret it , in a sense . So y you said if you " I 'm only interested in whether he wants to go there or not " , then I just look at that node , look which one grad c: Look at that Struct in the output , grad b: Yep . grad c: right ? grad b: Look at that Struct in the the output , even though I wouldn't call it a " Struct " . grad c: Well i well , it 's an XML Structure that 's being res returned , grad b: Oh . grad c: right ? grad b: So every part of a structure is a " Struct " . grad c: Yeah , I just I just was abbreviated it to Struct in my head , and started going with that . And , the reason is why I think it 's a little bit more complex or why why we can even think about it as an interesting problem in and of itself is . grad c: Well , w wouldn't we just take the structure that 's outputted and then run another transformation on it , that would just dump the one that we wanted out ? grad b: Yeah . grad b: No grad c: D Can't you just look at one specific grad b: Yeah , exactly . The @ @ Xerxes allows you to say , u " Just give me the value of that , and that , and that . " But , we don't really know what we 're interested in before we look at the complete at at the overall result . So the person said , " Where is X ? " and so , we want to know , is Does he want info ? o on this ? or know the location ? Or does he want to go there ? Let 's assume this is our our question . It 's always gonna give us a value of how likely we think i it is that he wants to go there and doesn't want to go there , or how likely it is that he wants to get information . So , does he wanna know where it is ? or does he wanna go there ? grad c: He wants to know where it is . And if it 's If grad c: Well now , y , you could grad b: And i if there 's sort of a clear winner here , and , and this is pretty , indifferent , then we then we might conclude that he actually wants to just know where , t , he does want to go there . grad c: out of curiosity , is there a reason why we wouldn't combine these three nodes ? into one smaller subnet ? that would just basically be the question for We have " where is X ? " is the question , right ? That would just be Info - on or Location ? Based upon grad b: Or Go - there . People come up to you on campus and say , " Where 's the library ? " You 're gonna say y you 're gonna say , g " Go down that way . " You 're not gonna say " It 's It 's five hundred yards away from you " or " It 's north of you " , or " it 's located " grad c: Well , But the there 's So you just have three decisions for the final node , that would link thes these three nodes in the net together . Again , in this Given this input , we , also in some situations , may wanna postulate an opinion whether that person wants to go there now the nicest way , use a cab , or so s wants to know it wants to know where it is because he wants something fixed there , because he wants to visit t it or whatever . So , it n a All I 'm saying is , whatever our input is , we 're always gonna get the full output . grad c: But , I guess I guess the thing is , this is another , smaller , case of reasoning in the case of an uncertainty , which makes me think Bayes - net should be the way to solve these things . So if you had If for every construction , grad b: Oh ! grad c: right ? you could say , " Well , there Here 's the Where - Is construction . " And for the Where - Is construction , we know we need to l look at this node , that merges these three things together grad b: And since we have a finite number of constructions that we can deal with , we could have a finite number of nodes . grad c: Say , if we had to y deal with arbitrary language , it wouldn't make any sense to do that , because there 'd be no way to generate the nodes for every possible sentence . grad c: But since we can only deal with a finite amount of stuff grad b: So , basically , the idea is to f to feed the output of that belief - net into another belief - net . grad c: Yeah , so basically take these three things and then put them into another belief - net . grad b: But , why why why only those three ? Why not the whol grad c: Well , d For the Where - Is question . But we believe that all the decision nodes are can be relevant for the Where - Is , and the Where How - do - I - get - to or the Tell - me - something - about . Well , I do I See , I don't know if this is a good idea or not . But , it seems like we could have I mea or we could put all of the all of the r information that could also be relevant into the Where - Is node answer grad b: grad b: Let 's not forget we 're gonna get some very strong input from these sub dis from these discourse things , right ? So . " Nuh ? Or " Where is X located at ? " grad c: We u grad b: Nuh ? grad c: Yeah , I know , but the Bayes - net would be able to The weights on the on the nodes in the Bayes - net would be able to do all that , grad b: grad c: wouldn't it ? Here 's a k Oh ! Oh , I 'll wait until you 're plugged in . The headphone that you have to put on backwards , with the little little thing and the little little foam block on it ? It 's a painful , painful microphone . grad c: The crown ? grad d: What ? grad b: Yeah , versus " the Sony " . grad b: You 're on - line ? grad c: Are you are your mike o Is your mike on ? grad a: Indeed . So you 've been working with these guys ? You know what 's going on ? grad a: Yes , I have . s So where are we ? grad c: Excellent ! grad b: We 're discussing this . A person says , " Where is X ? " , and we get a certain We have a Situation vector and a User vector and everything is fine ? An - an and and our and our grad c: Did you just sti Did you just stick the m the the the microphone actually in the tea ? grad a: No . grad b: let 's just assume our Bayes - net just has three decision nodes for the time being . These three , he wants to know something about it , he wants to know where it is , he wants to go there . grad c: In terms of , these would be wha how we would answer the question Where - Is , right ? We u This is i That 's what you s it seemed like , explained it to me earlier grad b: Yeah , but , mmm . grad c: w We we 're we wanna know how to answer the question " Where is X ? " grad b: Yeah . " grad c: Well , yeah , but in the s , let 's just deal with the s the simple case of we 're not worrying about timing or anything . We just want to know how we should answer " Where is X ? " grad b: OK . And , OK , and , Go - there has two values , right ? , Go - there and not - Go - there . So , he wants to know something about it , and he wants to know something he wants to know Where - it - is , grad a: Excuse me . grad b: And , in this case we would probably all agree that he wants to go there . grad b: In the , whatever , if we have something like this here , and this like that and maybe here also some grad a: You should probably make them out of Yeah . grad b: something like that , grad c: Well , it grad b: then we would guess , " Aha ! He , our belief - net , has s stronger beliefs that he wants to know where it is , than actually wants to go there . " Right ? grad c: That it Doesn't this assume , though , that they 're evenly weighted ? grad d: True . grad a: The different decision nodes , you mean ? grad c: Yeah , the Go - there , the Info - on , and the Location ? grad a: Well , d yeah , this is making the assumption . grad c: Like grad b: What do you mean by " differently weighted " ? They don't feed into anything really anymore . grad a: But , why do we grad c: Or I jus grad a: If we trusted the Go - there node more th much more than we trusted the other ones , then we would conclude , even in this situation , that he wanted to go there . grad c: Le grad a: So , in that sense , we weight them equally right now . But grad c: So the But I guess the k the question that I was as er wondering or maybe Robert was proposing to me is How do we d make the decision on as to which one to listen to ? grad a: Yeah , so , the final d decision is the combination of these three . So again , it 's it 's some kind of , grad c: Bayes - net . grad c: OK so , then , the question i So then my question is t to you then , would be So is the only r reason we can make all these smaller Bayes - nets , because we know we can only deal with a finite set of constructions ? Cuz oth If we 're just taking arbitrary language in , we couldn't have a node for every possible question , you know ? grad a: A decision node for every possible question , you mean ? grad c: Well , I like , in the case of Yeah . In the ca Any piece of language , we wouldn't be able to answer it with this system , b if we just h Cuz we wouldn't have the correct node . Basically , w what you 're s proposing is a n Where - Is node , right ? grad a: Yeah . grad c: And and if we And if someone says , you know , something in Mandarin to the system , we 'd - wouldn't know which node to look at to answer that question , grad a: So is Yeah . grad c: right ? grad b: Mmm ? grad c: So , but but if we have a finite What ? grad b: I don't see your point . What what what I am thinking , or what we 're about to propose here is we 're always gonna get the whole list of values and their posterior probabilities . And now we need an expert system or belief - net or something that interprets that , that looks at all the values and says , " The winner is Timing . Wh - Regardle grad c: Yeah , but But how does the expert but how does the expert system know how who which one to declare the winner , if it doesn't know the question it is , and how that question should be answered ? grad b: Based on the k what the question was , so what the discourse , the ontology , the situation and the user model gave us , we came up with these values for these decisions . But how do we weight what we get out ? As , which one i Which ones are important ? So my i So , if we were to it with a Bayes - net , we 'd have to have a node for every question that we knew how to deal with , that would take all of the inputs and weight them appropriately for that question . grad c: Does that make sense ? Yay , nay ? grad a: are you saying that , what happens if you try to scale this up to the situation , or are we just dealing with arbitrary language ? grad c: We grad a: Is that your point ? grad c: Well , no . Are we going to make a node for every question ? Does that make sense ? grad a: For every question ? grad c: Or not . , it 's not based on constructions , it 's based on things like , there 's gonna be a node for Go - there or not , and there 's gonna be a node for Enter , View , Approach . grad c: How do we decide how to answer it ? grad b: Well , look at look Face yourself with this pr question . What do we think ? What does this tell us ? And not knowing what was asked , and what happened , and whether the person was a tourist or a local , because all of these factors have presumably already gone into making these posterior probabilities . What what we need is a just a mechanism that says , " Aha ! There is " grad c: Yeah . I just don't think a " winner - take - all " type of thing is the grad a: in general , like , we won't just have those three , right ? We 'll have , like , many , many nodes . So we have to , like So that it 's no longer possible to just look at the nodes themselves and figure out what the person is trying to say . So if if for example , the Go - there posterior possibility is so high , w if it 's if it has reached reached a certain height , then all of this becomes irrelevant . If even if if the function or the history or something is scoring pretty good on the true node , true value grad c: Wel I don't know about that , cuz that would suggest that grad b: He wants to go there and know something about it ? grad c: Do they have to be mutual Yeah . grad c: Cuz I , The way you describe what they meant , they weren't mutu , they didn't seem mutually exclusive to me . grad b: Well , if he doesn't want to go there , even if the Enter posterior proba So . grad c: Well , yeah , just out of the other three , though , that you had in the grad b: ? grad c: those three nodes . But It 's through the grad c: So th s so , yeah , but some So , some things would drop out , and some things would still be important . grad c: But I guess what 's confusing me is , if we have a Bayes - net to deal w another Bayes - net to deal with this stuff , grad a: grad c: you know , is the only reason OK , so , I guess , if we have a Ba - another Bayes - net to deal with this stuff , the only r reason we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ? grad a: Yeah . grad c: And then , so , the only reason way we would know what question he 's asking is based upon Oh , so if Let 's say I had a construction parser , and I plug this in , I would know what each construction the communicative intent of the construction was grad a: So no matter what they said , if I could map it onto a Where - Is construction , I could say , " ah ! grad a: Ge grad c: well the the intent , here , was Where - Is " , grad a: OK , right . Yeah , I 'm also agreeing that a simple pru Take the ones where we have a clear winner . Right ? But in this case if we say , " definitely he doesn't want to go there . " or let 's call this this " Look - At - H " He wants to know something about the history of . " Now , the e But for some reason the Endpoint - Approach gets a really high score , too . We can't expect this to be sort of at O point three , three , three , O point , three , three , three , O point , three , three , three . You know ? Or know There needs to be some knowledge that grad c: We Yeah , but , the Bayes - net that would merge I just realized that I had my hand in between my mouth and my micr er , my and my microphone . So then , the Bayes - net that would merge there , that would make the decision between Go - there , Info - on , and Location , would have a node to tell you which one of those three you wanted , and based upon that node , then you would look at the other stuff . It 's sort of one of those , that 's It 's more like a decision tree , if if you want . You first look o at the lowball ones , grad c: Yeah , i grad b: and then grad c: Yeah , I didn't intend to say that every possible OK . There was a confusion there , k I didn't intend to say every possible thing should go into the Bayes - net , because some of the things aren't relevant in the Bayes - net for a specific question . Like the Endpoint is not necessarily relevant in the Bayes - net for Where - Is until after you 've decided whether you wanna go there or not . , when you 're asked a specific question and you don't even Like , if you 're asked a Where - Is question , you may not even look like , ask for the posterior probability of the , EVA node , right ? Cuz , that 's what , in the Bayes - net you always ask for the posterior probability of a specific node . You can compute , the posterior probability of one subset of the nodes , given some other nodes , but totally ignore some other nodes , also . So you have to make grad b: " OK , if it 's a Where - Is question , which decision nodes do I query ? " grad a: Yeah . grad d: So it 's pretty much the same problem , grad b: Yeah it 's it 's it 's apples and oranges . grad d: isn't it ? grad b: Nuh ? , maybe it does make a difference in terms of performance , computational time . grad b: So either you always have it compute all the posterior possibilities for all the values for all nodes , and then prune the ones you think that are irrelevant , grad a: Mmm . grad b: or you just make a p @ @ a priori estimate of what you think might be relevant and query those . And just basically do a binary search through the ? grad a: I don't know if it would necessarily be that , complicated . But , it w grad c: Well , in the case of Go - there , it would be . In the case Cuz if you needed an If y If Go - there was true , you 'd wanna know what endpoint was . And if it was false , you 'd wanna d look at either Lo - Income Info - on or History . grad a: OK , why 's that ? grad c: I can't figure out how to get the probabilities into it . grad c: Ju grad a: It 's there 's a grad c: Oh yeah , yeah . I d I just think I haven't figured out what the terms in Hugin mean , versus what Java Bayes terms are . grad b: by the way , are Do we know whether Jerry and Nancy are coming ? grad a: So we can figure this out . grad b: Or ? grad a: They should come when they 're done their stuff , basically , whenever that is . grad c: What d what do they need to do left ? grad a: I guess , Jerry needs to enter marks , but I don't know if he 's gonna do that now or later . But , if he 's gonna enter marks , it 's gonna take him awhile , I guess , and he won't be here . grad c: And what 's Nancy doing ? grad a: Nancy ? , she was sorta finishing up the , calculation of marks and assigning of grades , but I don't know if she should be here . grad c: She 's on the email list , right ? grad a: Is she ? OK . Because basically , what where we also have decided , prior to this meeting is that we would have a rerun of the three of us sitting together grad d: OK . grad c: Well , I grad d: You added a bunch of nodes , for ? grad b: Yep . grad b: Right ? grad c: what do the , structures do ? grad b: ? grad c: So the the the For instance , this Location node 's got two inputs , grad a: Four inputs . grad c: Cuz I thought it was like , that one in Stuart 's book about , you know , the grad a: Alarm in the dog ? grad c: U Yeah . grad c: Yeah , there 's a dog one , too , but that 's in Java Bayes , grad a: Right . grad b: And we have all the top ones , all the ones to which no arrows are pointing . What we 're missing are the these , where arrows are pointing , where we 're combining top ones . So , we have to come up with values for this , and this , this , this , and so forth . grad c: Cuz of Memorial Day ? grad a: We 'll meet next Tuesday , I guess . grad c: Or , three days ? grad a: Is he How long is he gone for ? grad b: Two weeks . grad a: Italy , huh ? What 's , what 's there ? grad b: Well , it 's a country . Part of what we actually want to do is sort of schedule out what we want to surprise him with when when he comes back . grad b: Yeah ? You or have a finished construction parser and a working belief - net , and grad c: That wouldn't be disappointing . I had I I had sort of scheduled out in my mind that you guys do a lot of work , and I do nothing . But , i do you guys have any vacation plans , because I myself am going to be , gone , but this is actually not really important . But we 're all going to be here on Tuesday again ? Looks like it ? grad d: Yeah . And once we have finished it , I guess we can , and that 's going to be more just you and me , because Bhaskara is doing probabilistic , recursive , structured , object - oriented , grad c: Killing machines ! grad b: reasoning machines . So you 're saying , next Tuesday , is it the whole group meeting , or just us three working on it , or or ? grad b: . grad b: definite grad d: So , when you were saying we need to do a re - run of , like grad a: h What ? grad d: What Like , just working out the rest of the grad b: Yeah . grad c: When you say , " the whole group " , you mean the four of us , and Keith ? grad d: OK . grad c: Ami might be here , and it 's possible that Nancy 'll be here ? grad b: Yep . grad b: Because , th you know , once we have the belief - net done grad c: You 're just gonna have to explain it to me , then , on Tuesday , how it 's all gonna work out . Because then , once we have it sort of up and running , then we can start you know , defining the interfaces and then feed stuff into it and get stuff out of it , and then hook it up to some fake construction parser and grad c: That you will have in about nine months or so . grad b: And , grad c: The first bad version 'll be done in nine months . grad b: Yeah , I can worry about the ontology interface and you can Keith can worry about the discourse . , this is pretty , I I I hope everybody knows that these are just going to be dummy values , right ? grad a: Which grad b: where the grad a: Which ones ? grad b: S so so if the endpoint if the Go - there is Yes and No , then Go - there - discourse will just be fifty - fifty . Right ? grad a: what do you mean ? If the Go - there says No , then the Go - there is grad d: I don't get it . grad b: But , what are the values of the Go - there - discourse ? grad a: Well , it depends on the situation . If the discourse is strongly indicating that grad b: Yeah , but , we have no discourse input . grad d: So , so far we have Is that what the Keith node is ? grad b: Yep . And you 're taking it out ? for now ? grad b: Well , this is D grad d: Or ? grad b: OK , this , I can I can get it in here . grad d: All the D 's are grad b: I can get it in here , so th We have the , sk let 's let 's call it " Keith - Johno grad a: Johno ? grad b: node " . grad b: And , grad c: Does th th does the H go b before the A or after the A ? grad a: Oh , in my name ? Before the A . Cuz you kn When you said people have the same problem , I thought Cuz my H goes after the e e e the v grad a: People have the inverse problem with my name . I always have to check , every time y I send you an email , a past email of yours , to make sure I 'm spelling your name correctly . grad b: But , when you abbreviate yourself as the " Basman " , you don't use any H 's . grad a: " Basman " ? Yeah , it 's because of the chessplayer named Michael Basman , who is my hero . grad c: How do you pronou How do you pronounce your name ? grad d: Eva . grad c: What if I were What if I were to call you Eva ? grad d: I 'd probably still respond to it . Like if I u take the V and s pronounce it like it was a German V ? grad b: Which is F . grad d: I grad c: There 's also an F in German , grad d: OK . It doesn't matter what those nodes are , anyway , because we 'll just make the weights " zero " for now . We 'll make them zero for now , because it who who knows what they come up with , what 's gonna come in there . grad c: Wait , maybe it 's OK , so that that that we can that we have one node per construction . Cuz even in people , like , they don't know what you 're talking about if you 're using some sort of strange construction . grad c: Well , yeah , but , the , that 's what the construction parser would do . grad c: if you said something completely arbitrary , it would f find the closest construction , grad b: OK . grad c: right ? But if you said something that was completel er h theoretically the construction parser would do that But if you said something for which there was no construction whatsoever , n people wouldn't have any idea what you were talking about . What do you think about that , Bhaskara ? grad a: Well But how many constructions do could we possibly have nodes for ? grad c: In this system , or in r grad a: No , we . grad c: Oh , when p How many constructions do people have ? grad a: Yeah . grad a: Is it considered to be like in are they considered to be like very , sort of s abstract things ? grad c: Every noun is a construction . grad a: S grad c: And then , of course , the c I guess , maybe there can be the Can there be combinations of the dit grad a: Discourse - level constructions . grad c: It 's probab Yeah , I would s definitely say it 's finite . grad c: And at least in compilers , that 's all that really matters , as long as your analysis is finite . grad a: How 's that ? How it can be finite , again ? grad c: Nah , I can't think of a way it would be infinite . If the if your if your brain was totally non - deterministic , then perhaps there 's a way to get , infin an infinite number of constructions that you 'd have to worry about . grad c: So the best - case scenario would be the number of constructions or , the worst - case scenario is the number of constructions equals the number of neurons . I just Can't you use different var different levels of activation ? across , lots of different neurons , to specify different values ? grad b: grad a: yeah , but there 's , like , a certain level of grad c: There 's a bandwidth issue , grad a: Bandw - Yeah , so you can't do better than something <doc-sep>What are we talking about today ? phd e: well , first there are perhaps these Meeting Recorder digits that we tested . professor a: And for one thing that that sure shows the difference between having a lot of training data or not , phd e: Of data ? Yeah . professor a: the The best kind of number we have on the English on near microphone only is is three or four percent . professor a: And it 's significantly better than that , using fairly simple front - ends on on the , with the SRI system . professor a: So I th I think that the But that 's that 's using a a pretty huge amount of data , mostly not digits , of course , but but then again Well , yeah . In fact , mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas in this case we 're just using digits for training the H M phd e: Yeah . professor a: Did anybody mention about whether the the SRI system is a is is doing the digits the wor as a word model or as a sub s sub - phone states ? phd e: I guess it 's it 's allophone models , professor a: Yeah . There is one difference Well , the SRI system the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation . So there is It 's their complete system and including on - line unsupervised adaptation . phd e: And if you don't use adaptation , the error rate is around fifty percent worse , I think , if I remember . professor a: It 's tha it 's that much , huh ? phd e: Nnn . professor a: But but what what I think I 'd be interested to do given that , is that we we should take I guess that somebody 's gonna do this , right ? is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system , right ? phd e: Yeah . Our back - end is is fairly simple but until now , well , the attempts to improve it or have fail Ah , well , what Chuck tried to to to do professor a: Yeah , but he 's doing it with the same data , right ? so to So there 's there 's there 's two things being affected . One is that that , you know , there 's something simple that 's wrong with the back - end . professor a: I I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the number of Gaussians yet phd e: So , yeah , we could retrain some of these tandem on on huge professor a: Well , you could do that , but I 'm saying even with it not with that part not retrained , just just using having the H M Ms much better H M phd e: Ah , yeah . But what would be interesting to see also is what what perhaps it 's not related , the amount of data but the recording conditions . Because it 's probably not a problem of noise , because our features are supposed to be robust to noise . phd e: It 's not a problem of channel , because there is normalization with respect to the channel . What what is the problem that you 're trying to explain ? phd e: The the fact that the result with the tandem and Aurora system are so much worse . professor a: I but I 'm I 'm almost certain that it it , that it has to do with the amount of training data . professor a: But but having a huge If if you look at what commercial places do , they use a huge amount of data . , ordinarily you would say " well , given that you have enough occurrences of the digits , you can just train with digits rather than with , you know " phd e: professor a: But the thing is , if you have a huge in other words , do word models But if you have a huge amount of data then you 're going to have many occurrences of similar allophones . professor a: So it 's I I think it has to be that , because , as you say , this is , you know , this is near - microphone , phd e: Now , some of it could be the fact that let 's see , in the in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training ? phd e: Yeah . Well , actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are are better than the multi - train , professor a: It is if Yeah . phd e: Well , o I guess what I meant is that well , let 's say if we if we add enough data to train on the on the Meeting Recorder digits , I guess we could have better results than this . What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something from this , what 's what 's wrong what what is different between TI - digits and these digits and professor a: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits ? phd e: It 's point eight percent , so . professor a: So in the actual TI - digits database we 're getting point eight percent , phd e: Yeah . professor a: and here we 're getting three or four three , let 's see , three for this ? phd e: Sure , but , point eight percent is something like double or triple what people have gotten who 've worked very hard at doing that . professor a: And and also , as you point out , there 's adaptation in these numbers also . So if you , you know , put the ad adap take the adaptation off , then it for the English - Near you get something like two percent . professor a: It 's , you know , we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data . And this is a a , you know , modern system has has a lot of nice points to it . professor a: But to me it just it just meant a practical point that if we want to publish results on digits that that people pay attention to we probably should Cuz we 've had the problem before that you get show some nice improvement on something that 's that 's , it seems like too large a number , and people don't necessarily take it so seriously . So the three point four percent for this is is So why is it It 's an interesting question though , still . Why is why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to the point eight percent for for for the original TI - digits database ? . So ignore ignoring the the the SRI system for a moment , phd e: I I I don't I professor a: just looking at the TI - di the tandem system , if we 're getting point eight percent , which , yes , it 's high . It 's , you know , it it 's not awfully high , phd e: professor a: Right ? , there 's even though it 's close - miked there 's still there really is background noise . And I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over . professor a: It was not there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any in any sense at all . TI - digit is it 's very , very clean and it 's like studio recording professor a: But professor a: It 's I think it 's it 's the indication it 's harder . , they 're much much better , but still you 're getting something like one point three percent for things that are same data as in T TI - digits the same same text . And , I 'm sure the same same system would would get , you know , point point three or point four or something on the actual TI - digits . professor a: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to it 's still read . But I still think it 's much closer to to what what people actually face , when they 're they 're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone . I don't think , I 'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers , but I don't think that the the the companies that that do telephone speech get anything like point four percent on their digits . I 'm I 'm I 'm sure they get , for one thing people do phone up who don't have Middle America accents and it 's a we we it 's it 's it 's US . professor a: Did we end up giving up on on , any Eurospeech submissions , phd e: But professor a: or ? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are are submitting something , but . I I guess e the only thing with these the Meeting Recorder and , well , So , I think , yeah I think we basically gave up . Now , actually for the for the Aur - phd e: But professor a: we do have stuff for Aurora , right ? Because because we have ano an extra month or something . professor a: and we have We don't we don't have to flood it with papers . Perhaps the point is that we 've been working on is , yeah , we have put the the good VAD in the system and it really makes a huge difference . I think , yeah , this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not not the best , because with the new VAD , it 's very the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes . The problem is that it 's very big and we still have to think how to where to put it and , professor a: phd e: because it it well , this VAD either some delay and we if we put it on the server side , it doesn't work , because on the server side features you already have LDA applied from the f from the terminal side and so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller and professor a: So wha where did this good VAD come from ? phd e: So . So it 's the network trained it 's the network with the huge amounts on hidden of hidden units , and nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs . Yeah , but they had to get rid of it because of the space , didn't they ? phd e: Yeah . But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that 's small and that works fine . , i if if there 's a if if I I don't know what the thinking was amongst the the the the ETSI folk but if everybody agreed sure let 's use this VAD and take that out of there phd e: They just want , apparently they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and and VAD or frame dropping But they still want to just to give some requirement for this VAD because it 's it will not be part of they don't want it to be part of the standard . But I was thinking that that s " Sure , there may be some interaction , phd e: Nnn . professor a: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI 's VAD . I designed a new a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters , there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds professor a: Right . phd e: and Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it 's sixty - five . Both should have sixty - five because professor a: You didn't gain anything , right ? phd e: Yeah . phd e: Yeah , and then we 've started to work with this of voiced - unvoiced stuff . phd e: And next week I think we will perhaps try to have a new system with MSG stream also see what what happens . phd d: No , I w I begin to play with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision . And we they we found that maybe w is a classical parameter , the sq the variance between the FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time we after the mel filter bank . So , basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and professor a: Right . phd d: The the mix of the two , noise and unnoise , and the signal is this . professor a: Well , I 'm s There 's None of these axes are labeled , so I don't know what this What 's this axis ? phd d: this is this axis is nnn , " frame " . professor a: And what 's th what this ? phd d: this is energy , log - energy of the spectrum . Of the this is the variance , the difference between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two , professor a: For this one . phd d: Pity , but I don't have two different professor a: And presumably when there 's a a phd e: So this should the the the t voiced portions . This is trying to obtain with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s professor a: No pre - emphasis ? Yeah . So now I wonder , do you want to I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum . But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced , do you do you want to totally ignore that ? , do you do you , clearly a a very big very big cues for voiced - unvoiced come from spectral slope and so on , right ? phd e: phd d: if s @ @ val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it 's low values professor a: Yeah . Well , you probably want , certainly if you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection , you need a few features . But , you know , people look at at slope and first auto - correlation coefficient , divided by power . professor a: Or or there 's I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something ? with a pitch detector you could have a have a an estimate of of what the phd e: Mmm . Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT 's figuring out some probable harmonic structure . phd d: you have read up and you have a paper , the paper that you s give me yesterday . But Yeah , but it 's not it 's , yeah , it 's it 's another problem . phd e: What 's this again ? Is it the mel - filters ? phd d: Yeah like this . phd e: and what we clearly see is that in some cases , and it clearly appears here , and the the harmonics are resolved by the f Well , there are still appear after mel - filtering , professor a: phd e: and it happens for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters is sometimes even smaller than the pitch . phd e: And so what happens is that this , add additional variability to this envelope and professor a: Yeah . phd e: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that that 's smoother on low frequencies . What I was talking about was just , starting with the FFT you could you could do a very rough thing to estimate estimate pitch . professor a: And , given you know , given that , you could come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was was explained by by those harmonics . And and so if you if you just you know subtracted off your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and and our first kilohertz , even . professor a: And if was noisy , the proportion that it would go down would be if it was if it was unvoiced or something . What 's up with you ? grad b: our t I went to talk with Mike Jordan this this week professor a: grad b: and shared with him the ideas about extending the Larry Saul work and I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when we 've come up with these these feature detectors , how do we how do we you know , model the time series that that happens and and we talked a little bit about factorial H M Ms and how when you 're doing inference or w when you 're doing recognition , there 's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for for these H M and the the great advantages that a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on on the sub - problems at hand so you can imagine five or so parallel features transitioning independently and then at the end you you couple these factorial H M Ms with with undirected links based on based on some more data . grad b: So he he seemed he seemed like really interested in in in this and said said this is this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and yeah , I 've just been continue reading about certain things . grad b: thinking of maybe using m modulation spectrum stuff to as features also in the in the sub - bands professor a: grad b: because it seems like the modulation spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of of certain words and stuff So , . And so I 've been looking at Avendano 's work and I 'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of what he 's doing , but it 's it 's an approach to deal with reverberation or that the aspect of his work that I 'm interested in the idea is that normally an analysis frames are too short to encompass reverberation effects in full . You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so you you 'd like it to be that the reverberation responses simply convolved in , but it 's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take , say , a two millisecond window I 'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this , most of the reverberation response is included in the window and the then it then things are l more linear . It is it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and and you can use channel normalization techniques like in his thesis he 's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed . He just does mean subtraction , which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and that 's supposed to d deal deal pretty well with the reverberation and the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer so he does this method training trading the the spectral resolution for time resolution and come ca synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s frequency resolution . I guess it 's these are called " time frequency representations " and h he 's making the the time sh finer grained and the frequency resolution less fine grained . grad c: s so I 'm I guess my first stab actually in continuing his work is to re - implement this this thing which changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me . grad c: Oh , and , another f first step is , so the the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response and we don't really know how fast the the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data so we we have this block least squares imp echo canceller implementation and I want to try finding the the response , say , between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then see how fast that varies from block to block . grad c: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing . S so y you do I think you read some of the the zeros as O 's and some as zeros . grad c: Is there a particular way we 're supposed to read them ? phd e: There are only zeros here . " O " " O " " O " " O " " O " " O " and " zero " are two ways that we say that digit . professor a: So it 's grad b: Ha ! phd e: But professor a: so it 's i phd e: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the if we want to the the guy to say " O " or professor a: No . professor a: in digit recognition we 've done before , you have you have two pronunciations for that value , " O " and " zero " . phd e: But it 's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then , if because here you only have zeros professor a: No , they just write phd e: and and people pronounce " O " or zero professor a: they they write down OH . phd e: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the " O " . , you 'd have to tell them " OK when we write this , say it tha " , phd e: OK . professor a: you know , and you just They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would phd e: Is this a change from the last batch of of forms ? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read . It was it was spelled out , and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things . professor a: That 's also why they 're they 're bunched together in these different groups . Actually , let me just s since since you brought it up , I was just it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it after we since we just discussed it . But I realized that that when I 'm talking on the phone , certainly , and and saying these numbers , I almost always say zero . So that that that 's the habit I 'm in , but some people say " O " and grad b: Yeah I normally say " O " cuz it 's easier to say

The signal level's impact on the system was questioned by PhD C, who suggested that the improvement in the model was more likely dependent on the ratio. PhD E speculated that the recording problem was not related to noise, as the difference in results between the tandem and Aurora systems was significant. Adding more data from Meeting Recorder digits was proposed as a way to gain further insights. PhD B proposed using a smaller capacitor to address reverberation and expressed interest in the cutoff frequency to minimize interference with speech. The presented Bayes-net model incorporates inputs from various models and outputs posterior probabilities for decision nodes such as "Go-there," "EVA," "Info-on," "Location," and "Timing." The XML format was used to present the input and output node structure, which already has many set value probabilities. Object representations, including an EVA vector, will be included in the database entry for buildings or inherited from the building type ontology, with further enrichment required as the project progresses.

Summarize the opinions of PhD C, PhD E, and PhD B on the signal to noise ratio and patterns of noise in the recordings. Additionally, explain how the Bayes-net deals with inputs and the suggested incorporation of EVA into the Bayes-net.

Actually , I think he he redirected it to everybody also so the PDA mikes have a big bunch of energy at at five hertz where this came up was that I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . I I have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , in fact it 's not , of of the effects of room reverberation . And then we had this other discussion about whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? But Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: Right . But then I had some other thing discussions with him phd b: For the P D professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , many other problems could ha happen . professor a: A simple thing to do is he he he has a I forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . professor a: The other thing that I don't know the answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is if it 's if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program , which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP then there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: What 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: Oh . I don't know I wrote this a while ago phd b: Is it like twenty ? professor a: Something like that . I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . So , it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . I don't know in the in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: . We we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for . He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so we don't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . And then again if it 's depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . It 's just not a great example because not only isn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . professor a: So , it doesn't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of five hertz noise , so . So it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate . So , but , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man . So I think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . One of the things I was , I was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is O K , but the thing is the eyes and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it doesn't seem like it 's that bad because there 's many features that are still preserved . So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . Another , I was thinking of was taking some spectral slices , like like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the , the reverberation does make it does change that . grad c: W w what d what do you mean ? professor a: Well , all the recognizers look at frames . professor a: So it 's , yeah , at one point in time or twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . And if you look at phd b: You could just you could just throw up , you know , the some MFCC feature vectors . You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . Well , that 's why I saying either Well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: I 'm just kidding . professor a: but but I think the thing is you wanna phd b: I don't mean a graph . Yeah , at first I had a remark why I am wondering why the PDA is always so far . Since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together the clean low - pass downsampling , upsampling , the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , and also the delay issue so that We considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . professor a: But it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: It 's not professor a: right ? phd f: Yeah . It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but I think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . For Italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . I don't I don't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: - huh . professor a: Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: Y professor a: Right . professor a: So then if you take your changes phd f: It 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but from this se seventy - eight percent recognition rate system , I could change the transition probabilities for the the first and it will end up to eighty - nine also . phd f: By using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the HTK script . phd b: th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: Yeah . From point phd f: Even tenth of a percent ? phd b: I I 'm sorry phd f: Well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from You change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: Oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: . phd b: alright ? so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . phd b: And it 's I think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about it just being very phd f: phd b: and I think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very phd f: Mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it I guess . professor a: Well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: I think you 're not allowed to Yeah . But changing it to point five I think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . phd f: Yeah , but even if you use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: Yeah . We only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , . phd b: right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice phd f: Yeah . I think the reason is , yeah , I not I it was in my mail I think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . Well , in for the mismatched case everything is using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and Well . phd b: I did notice something phd f: So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: Somebody , I think it was Morgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . phd b: And there are almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . phd b: I did one quick experiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just f for most of the For for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and it it it didn't have a r any significant effect at the medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . And I think also just seeing what we saw in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different . phd b: And so in the case where it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . I think you know if we make a better silence model I think that will help a lot too for a lot of these cases so but one one thing I I wanted to check out before I increased the number of mixtures per state was in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . Seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . phd b: And so you know in trying to run these experiments I notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . And so one of the things I did was I compiled HTK for the Linux machines professor a: phd b: cuz we have this one from IBM that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: Right . phd b: and so now I 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . And if I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . And if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . But if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I increased the number of Gaussians . professor a: But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: Yeah . But actually actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . Which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is Well I well what what What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: So it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: No , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: Yeah but what is that you can have a huge improvement on the H HMK 's , like five percent absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement relative to the the baseline is small professor a: So they do improvement in terms of accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: . improvement ? professor a: So phd f: No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: OK . professor a: So if you have ten percent error and you get five percent absolute improvement then that 's fifty percent . So what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . Sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: Yeah . That 's why I 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate and and not not at at accuracies . phd b: it 's not it 's not that different , right ? , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: Yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . professor a: If you had ninety percent correct and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . professor a: So just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . professor a: What 's a little bit ? Like phd f: Like , it 's difficult to say because again I 'm not sure I have the phd b: Hey Morgan ? Do you remember that Signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? Is that still valid ? I I 've been using that . I just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: Yeah , I 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he he was a little more rigorous , as I recall . s phd f: well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point O four . For Finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . And for Spanish we are we were at ninety - five point O five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: And is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . Because nnn , well we don't have complete result , but the filter So the filter with the shorter delay hurts on Italian well - matched , which And , yeah . And the other things , like downsampling , upsampling , don't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: phd f: I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but I don't know . There is first this thing , and then the yeah , I computed the like , the confidence level on the different test sets . professor a: But OK , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: So . Do the does the new filter make things better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: Yeah . OK , so I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then you 're not quite sure what to make of it . But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , I would say . So at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . What I was asking , though , is are what 's what 's the level of communication with the O G I gang now , about this and phd f: Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . We are working on our side on other things like also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , another spectral substraction . It 's going professor a: Is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: Yeah . As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and But we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . Sounds like a great idea but but I think that that he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline . Anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ? phd f: S professor a: Or , is that what is that phd f: Yeah we are We are trying to to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits , professor a: Right . phd f: and , well , some people from OGI are working on a paper for this , but there is also the special session about th Aurora which is which has an extended deadline . professor a: So the deadline When 's the deadline ? When 's the deadline ? phd f: ? I think it 's the thirteenth of May . So , I I think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue but but I think it 's probably , on s from what Stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: Well I could at least Well , I 'm going to be out next week but I could try to look into like this CVS over the web . That seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: phd b: so maybe if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people don't it won't interfere with their regular work , then maybe that would be good . And if you 're interested in using CVS , I 've set it up here , phd b: Oh great . grad c: j phd b: I used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions . Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz the , actually the the It made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: Maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: No , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but you can't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . professor a: They hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: - huh . professor a: but that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . But for the the visual , just , you know , I 'd like to have , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: Yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: I noticed that in the pictures . phd b: I thought " hey , you know th " I My initial thought was " this is not too bad ! " professor a: Right . But you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see " well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . professor a: So you could that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah . The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . It looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: Right . Since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have reduced high frequencies . But the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and we want to show that , in some obvious way . " but I I just After after they were put in there I didn't really look at them anymore , cuz I just they were different . So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: The other thing that we had in there that I didn't like was that the most obvious characteristic of the difference when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the cuts that we have there actually don't correspond to the full wave form . It 's just the first I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . But it it 's it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . So we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , I think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . phd f: So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the Wall process , which contains LDA on - line normalization . phd f: And so we started to look at at things like this , which is , well , it 's Yeah . And the sentence contain only one word , which is " Due " And it can't clearly be seen . phd f: Where is the word ? phd b: This is this is , grad e: . phd f: This is a plot of C - zero , when we don't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . phd f: then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . phd f: and And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: phd b: Can I ask what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ? professor a: Normalizes the variance . phd f: So it phd b: No , I understand that , phd f: You you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd f: phd b: No , I understand what it is , but , what does it what 's what is phd f: Yeah but . professor a: Well , because everything If you have a system based on Gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . professor a: So if there 's an overall reason You know , it 's like if you were doing image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , there was a lot of light and and in some , there was low light , phd b: professor a: And the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? So what if one set of pictures was taken so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night ten times , another time it went thr i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: Oh , OK . I guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . So if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the So every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . professor a: And so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: I see . So would the major effect is that you 're gonna get is by normalizing the means , professor a: That 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help First - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: And it may help to do the variance . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between E and B phd b: OK . professor a: if it just so happens that the E 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: professor a: or the variation in it was larger , than with the B 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: So the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . And it and this professor a: i is if If you have a good voice activity detector , isn't isn't it gonna pull that out ? phd f: Yeah . Well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what we 've already observed . phd b: I don't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . What I notice is that , while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . phd f: But the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . phd b: But for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: And Yeah , but here phd b: You 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: Yeah . For I th I think that it perhaps it shows that the parameters that the voice activity detector should use have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . phd f: Well , y professor a: So you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . You also could do it by spect spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: Yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on Italian HM and with these two kinds of parameters . phd b: Where 's th phd f: But the fact is that the voice activity detector doesn't work on channel one . phd b: Where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? Is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: ? professor a: Spectral subtraction , I guess . Is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: It 's applied the on , yeah , something like this , phd b: Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one . professor a: Can I phd f: So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD . Can I ask a , a sort of top - level question , which is " if if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? " phd f: phd f: It 's just Well it 's another They are trying to u to use the the Ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . When we do spectral subtraction , actually , I think that this is the the two last figures . phd b: Speech is more what ? phd f: Well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . phd f: Well , if you compare the first figure to this one Actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers you clearly see that the difference between the C - zero of the speech and C - zero of the noise portion is larger . but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of C - zero . And what they did at OGI is just they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think Yeah . So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but I think with different different system and professor a: Right . , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th one way or the other phd f: professor a: but I 'm I 'm just wondering if on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we won't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd b: if you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . I don't know if that 's true or not , but I could see how phd f: Mmm . , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which isn't quite what you 'd like it to be . And then weren't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? That was Was it There was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: Yeah . And they are t I think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call TRAP or generalized TRAP . Do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next phd f: It 's in June . Yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about the VAD V A Ds performing quite differently ? That that So . This there was this experiment of " what if we just take the baseline ? " phd f: Mmm . professor a: set of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different V A And it looks like the the French VAD is actually better significantly better . If the use the small VAD I th I think it 's on I think it 's easy to do better because it doesn't work at all . He Actually , I think that he say with the good VAD of from OGI and with the Alcatel VAD . phd f: Yeah but I it 's I think you were talking about the other mail that used VAD on the reference features . professor a: it was enough better that that it would account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: And perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the VAD . professor a: H Hynek will be back in town the week after next , back back in the country . phd d: Also is Stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about voiced - unvoiced phd f: phd f: Yeah , my feeling is that actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: Right . phd f: Yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . We don't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but Cuz I have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some It 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . phd f: there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: Right . When you have noise there is no if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: but but phd b: Isn't there some other phd f: S phd b: d phd f: So I think that it it would be good Yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: I was just gonna say isn't there aren't aren't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , by looking at , you know , I guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: Well , I think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: Mmm . phd b: w ah you know , even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: Mmm . phd f: yeah , so yeah , I think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . We were thinking about like using ideas from from Larry Saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the FFT and professor a: U phd f: Larry Saul could be an idea . We were are thinking about just kind of taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on making use of voicing information to help in reducing the noise . phd f: Yeah ? professor a: So what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . professor a: And you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . But the thing is that you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . professor a: And that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: Yeah . It was kind of like RASTA was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: Mmm . We 've actually back when Chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced classification using a bunch of these , phd f: But professor a: and and works OK . professor a: But the thing is that you can't given the constraints of this task , we can't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we can't you know affect the the distributions or anything . phd b: Didn't the head dude send around that message ? Yeah , I think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that I I 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people shouldn't put their own in or something . professor a: I guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do KLT 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent So , if it 's if it 's not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , looking at harmonicity or something like that , if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: professor a: take the log of that or pre pre pre - nonlinearity , phd f: Yeah . i if professor a: and do the KLT on the on on that , phd f: Yeah . And then that would be phd f: Yeah , well , I was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah So you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: R Right . If you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: professor a: so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and then you only use for this one distinction . professor a: And and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got the probability of the finer categories on the other side . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: Because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: Yeah . phd f: Well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to to go together very well . I professor a: Or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't doesn't hurt too much or something . professor a: But it but , anyway I think I was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: Yeah . professor a: cuz I was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing In fact if you get if you go into a harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and phd f: I know that when have people have done sort of the obvious thing of taking your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or that it hasn't my impression it hasn't particularly helped . professor a: But I think that 's that 's a question for this you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . Was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: And and it may not have been noisy conditions . I I don't remember the example but it was it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually phd f: But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT professor a: - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d , this voicing bit would help in in terms of frame classification . professor a: Why don't you why don't you just do it with Aurora ? phd f: Mmm . professor a: Just any i in in each in each frame phd f: Yeah , but but B but we cannot do the cheating , this cheating thing . Cuz we don't have Well , for Italian perhaps we have , but we don't have this labeling for Aurora . professor a: But you could you can you can align so that It 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: But the problem is that their models are all word level models . phd b: You So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . grad e: S But we could use the the noisy version that TIMIT , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the TI - digits portion of Aurora . phd f: Well , I guess I guess we can we can say that it will help , but I don't know . If this voicing bit doesn't help , I think we don't have to to work more about this because professor a: . professor a: and different ta it was probably Resource Management or something , I think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as I recall . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: It also professor a: one oh phd b: Yeah , the though I think there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . Well back twenty years ago when I did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . professor a: And we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . professor a: And then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . professor a: So I would I would believe that it was quite likely that looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: And the all the the SpeechCorders ? what 's the idea behind ? Cuz they they have to Oh , they don't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: The modern ones don't do a a simple switch . phd f: They just work on the code book professor a: They work on the code book excitation . They try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . One of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system . Actually I I s we didn't I guess I wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought I had was looking at the language model that 's used in the HTK recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which That model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: Right . I thought " well I 'm gonna just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . phd b: And the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the Aurora training data . So it 's either one , four , five , six , up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . So I I just for the heck of it , I made a little grammar which , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . So there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: phd b: So it was you know , I I didn't have any weights of these paths or I didn't have anything like that . phd b: And I played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but I couldn't go anywhere . I thought " well if I only allow " Yeah , I guess I should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . phd b: So to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things <doc-sep>professor c: OK , what are we talking about today ? phd b: I don't know . phd a: Oh , this was the , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: To to decide what to do , phd a: Ah , right . , so , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: Yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , the rules are different , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: To improve phd b: So , We took first we took the LDA filters and , we designed new filters , using recursive filters actually . professor c: So when you say " we " , is that something Sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: I 'm sorry ? professor c: Who is doing that ? phd b: us . phd b: So we took the filters the FIR filters and we designed , IIR filters that have the same frequency response . phd b: So they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . And the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the IIR filters . So we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: OK . phd b: and professor c: You you had a discussion with Sunil about this though ? phd b: No . professor c: right ? So so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: Yeah . , I yeah , I don't know if th that 's what they were trying to They were trying to do something different like taking , well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: Right . I think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there wasn't enough communication . Well , there is w one , remark about these filters , that they don't have a linear phase . phd b: Well , I don't know , perhaps it perhaps it doesn't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . , and so , yeah , for the delay I gave you here , it 's it 's , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . professor c: So that would be , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: The low f f phd b: Yeah . professor c: which , What was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: Three hundred and thirty . professor c: So that would be within ? phd b: Yeah , but there are other points actually , which will perhaps add some more delay . Is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . phd b: so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: - huh . , because wh when when we look at the LDA filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . phd b: and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . phd b: yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , basically the way on - line normalization was done , is just using this recursion on on the , on the feature stream , professor c: Yeah . , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . If we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . We would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . So it 's professor c: phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and PCA . phd b: So it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: Just just barely in there . phd a: What 's the allowable ? professor c: Two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd a: What were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: But phd b: Yeah . professor c: well the people who had very low latency want it to be low , very very very narrow , latency bound . professor c: Unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: Ah ! professor c: But , phd b: Yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: Yeah , so they were basically , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , trading latency for performance . And they were dealing with noise explicitly and we weren't , and so I think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: Think of it as what ? professor c: Complementary . professor c: I think the best systems so , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . So , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . And , we did this , RASTA - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . So , the , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . And so , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . I think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . To get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . And and , I don't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . professor c: These aren't large vocabulary things so the decoder shouldn't take a really long time , and . phd a: And I don't think anybody 's gonna notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . What what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , the the the surgical , microscopes and so forth . , how long was it from when somebody , finished an utterance to when , something started happening ? phd a: we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . phd a: And I I can't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . phd a: but it was , I would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . phd a: So professor c: Yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , plus some little processing time , phd a: Right . professor c: And there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: And it felt to , the users that it was instantaneous . professor c: Yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . A person I don't think a person can tell the difference between , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and I 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . , basically if you yeah , if you said , " what 's the , what 's the shortest route to the opera ? " and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: Yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . So like if I 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before I 'm even done . Well , anyway , I think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . phd a: So is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: professor c: And there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , multi - frame , KLT . phd a: Wasn't there Was it in the , recurrent neural nets where they weren't looking ahead at all ? professor c: They weren't looking ahead much . And and then But you also could just , we haven't experimented with this but I imagine you could , predict a , a label , from more in the past than in than than in the future . phd a: but I don't think professor c: Yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . So , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: yeah . And , phd d: Also we were thinking to to , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from Ericsson phd b: Yeah . professor c: phd a: What is the advantage of that ? phd d: phd b: Well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . Well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that professor c: So at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or doesn't do for you . Actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . And to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . professor c: Yeah , well , that 's what I meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . professor c: But maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination isn't necessary . But the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , phd b: Yeah . professor c: At what stage do you do that ? Do you you 're doing that , ? phd b: So it would be on the on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: We was think phd b: so . professor c: OK , phd d: Yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn We we was thinking to do before after VAD or phd b: Yeah , phd d: Oh , we don't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: phd d: Before after VAD or professor c: So so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: . professor c: one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , run a good VAD , and and determine boundaries . professor c: The reason for that was that , if some one p one group put in the VAD and another didn't , or one had a better VAD than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . It still wouldn't be perfect but , e the argument was " let 's not have that be part of this test . " And so , I guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , I 'm sorry , I don't don't know the answer but we should find out . So , Yeah , so there 's the question of the VAD but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , the mel fil filter bank , energies I guess ? phd d: professor c: And you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the I guess it 's power power domain , or or magnitude domain . phd b: and professor c: if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , I 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: Yeah . professor c: I have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , " oh , it works . professor c: and there 's this I guess there 's this mysterious people who do this a lot I guess have developed little tricks of the trade . , there 's there 's this , you don't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . phd b: so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the SNR . phd a: ! phd b: When the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . But when the power le the s signal level is small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . And this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: Oh ! phd b: which is more important during silence portions , phd a: - huh . professor c: Well , that 's , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: ! professor c: if if you have , fair assurance that , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . professor c: But if it 's varying at all , which is gonna be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: So do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: Well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . So one of the things that , Hans - Guenter Hirsch did , and pas and other people actually , he 's he wasn't the only one I guess , was to , take some period of of of speech and in each band , develop a histogram . And , in fact I think the NIST standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: A couple seconds ? professor c: So No , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: . Now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two Gaussians . professor c: So so basically now you have this mixture of two Gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . And the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious is to , determine through magical means that that , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , you can do a w a an iterative thing , EM - like thing , to determine means only . professor c: And then you just use those mean values as being the the , signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: But what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . Cuz if you don't look into the future , right ? phd a: OK , well that I guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: if you just if you you , a at the beginning you have some phd a: Guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , phd b: Yeah , but it professor c: It 's an interesting question . I wonder how they did do it ? phd b: Actually , it 's a mmm If - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . So professor c: Well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does Alcatel do ? phd d: grad e: Pretty stationary , phd b: but , professor c: Well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: Yeah , y , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but I think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gonna work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: Well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: But it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . So so I think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . professor c: If it varies a lot , to get a If if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . professor c: imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: Mmm . So , phd b: So in this case , yeah , sure , you cannot professor c: Yeah . phd b: But I think y , Hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: Were his , windows centered around the phd b: and But , yeah . professor c: No , I understand it 's better to do but I just think that that , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: Mmm . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: . professor c: but I don't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . professor c: I think that it 's phd a: We could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . phd b: What What do you mean ? professor c: Just cheat You 're saying , cheat . phd b: But if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you don't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . phd b: We just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: Oh , yeah , sure . phd b: Well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: But but phd d: Yeah . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: Very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: Right , the word " stationary " is has a very precise statistical meaning . But , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about I think is things that change slowly , compared with our our processing techniques . professor c: So if you 're driving along in a car I I would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . If you if you check it out , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: But it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . professor c: But you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: Yeah . professor c: so they may be you know , may be overly , complicated for for this test but but but , I don't know . , if possible you shouldn't you should you should make it , the center of the center of the window . , phd a: If they 're going to provide a , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , couldn't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: Oh , yeah . So I I imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? Is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , phd b: Yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and So . Yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten DB above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . It 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: Does France Telecom do this phd b: and grad e: . professor c: Does France Telecom do th do the same thing ? More or less ? phd b: I d I Y you know , perhaps ? phd d: No . , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , things that that we 've been chatting about but haven't made it into these meetings yet . So you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , Wanna just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: Oh , two , three , it can be shorter than that . , but I 'm , looking into extending the work done by Larry Saul and John Allen and Mazin Rahim . , they they have a system that 's , a multi - band , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where Where we 've been @ @ taking sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , training up a detector that detects for , these phonetic features for example , he presents , a detector to detect sonorance . And so what what it basically is is , it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an OR ga , it 's an AND gate . So , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . And at the at the higher level , for every if , The higher level there 's a soft OR gate . , so if if this detector detects , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect , the OR gate at the top says , " OK , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . " phd a: What are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: And these are all Oh , OK . , and the , professor c: So that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . Yeah , so he uses , an EM algorithm to to train up these parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: Well , actually , yeah , grad e: The professor c: so I was using EM to get the targets . So so you have this this this AND gate what we were calling an AND gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . And then he uses , i u and then feeding into that are I 'm sorry , there 's it 's an OR at the output , isn't it ? Yeah , grad e: phd a: And so are each of these , low level detectors are they , are these something that you decide ahead of time , like " I 'm going to look for this particular feature or I 'm going to look at this frequency , " or What what what are they looking at ? grad e: phd a: What are their inputs ? grad e: Right , so the OK , so at each for each sub - band there are basically , several measures of SNR and and correlation . , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , " I 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . grad e: And you initialize these parameters , in some some way and use EM to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . grad e: And then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , to typical , full - band Gaussian mixtures estimations of of sonorance . You get enough of these detectors together , then you have enough information to do , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . grad e: So , that 's that 's the direction which I 'm I 'm thinking about going in my quals . , one is the going towards , using narrow band information for , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , immediately going for the the typical sound units . professor c: Another thing I like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , Allen keeps pointing out that Fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: And then , the third thing I like about it is , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it hasn't been our dominant way of of operating anything , this issue of where the targets come from . So in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: professor c: and we say , " OK , we train every " What this is saying is , OK , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . But but , along the way how much should we , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? , because , we don't know , that this is a particularly good feature . , there 's no way , someone in the audience yesterday was asking , " well couldn't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? " phd a: professor c: But , you know , I think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , chunks of speech trying to determine whether I think it 'd be impossible . professor c: It 's all gonna sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . professor c: Well not , it 's g all g narrow band , i I m I think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . It could sh be that you should , not be paying that much attention to , certain bands for certain sounds , in order to get the best result . professor c: So , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . Now we have I guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , done separate , Viterbis on the different grad e: Yeah . Did did that help at all ? grad e: it helps for one or t one iteration but , anything after that it doesn't help . professor c: So so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . You 're taking global information and determining what you how you should But this is this is , I th I think a little more direct . phd a: How did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: And Well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . professor c: So he hasn't applied it to recognition or if he did he didn't talk about it . It 's it 's just And one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , the , he he did a comparison to , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and H M Ms , and and so forth . But the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that wasn't trained for that . , this use of a very smooth , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gonna do is detect sonorants or not So sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except I guess that the voiced stops are are also called " obstruents " . , so it 's it 's , but with the exception of the stops I guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: So , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , a a Vocoder , you wouldn't use the same kind of features . Nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . And this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , Gaussian mixtures and H M Ms and so forth , you you don't , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: Didn't they professor c: Which means you 're gonna make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: Didn't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said " if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? I thought I remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: That would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , got that right . phd b: What could be the other low level detectors , for Other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? Th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: phd b: or ? grad e: What t Oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: Other low level detectors ? Yeah . e , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . grad e: phd a: When we when we talked with John Ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: Yeah . professor c: Yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: Yeah , nasality . professor c: Now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . , these are things which , John felt that a a , a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . So the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . professor c: But stress doesn't , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: professor c: right ? It 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: Yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit and permit . professor c: Well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write PERMIT , right ? So you 'd get the word right . phd a: No , I 'm saying , i i e I thought you were saying that stress doesn't help you distinguish between words . As long as you get The sequence , professor c: We 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? Yeah . Yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , So . grad e: S so , Ohala 's going to help do these , transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: well I don't know . , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , grad e: . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . professor c: that 's not an immediate problem , that we don't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . professor c: But but , in the long term I guess Chuck is gonna continue the dialogue with John and and , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some I think . , so , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: Ri Yeah , OK , so , we 're interested in , methods for far mike speech recognition , mainly , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . So , one approach would be , say MSG and PLP , like was used in Aurora one and , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like MSG . And so we 're interested in , comparing the performance of , a robust approach like MSG with these , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . grad f: And , it looks like we 're gonna use the Meeting Recorder digits data for that . phd b: And the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? Does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: Several microphones ? Does it ? grad f: OK , well , there was something that was done by , a guy named Carlos , I forget his last name , who worked with Hynek , who , professor c: Avendano . grad f: it was like RASTA in the sense that of it was , de - convolution by filtering , except he used a longer time window , phd b: And the reason for that is RASTA 's time window is too short to , include the whole , reverberation , I don't know what you call it the reverberation response . The reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the for the RASTA filtering to take care of it . And , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which haven't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , have the assumption that , you can do LPC analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . It 's just the , excitation signal that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , feed that through the i , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . professor c: There 's also this , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , we have , and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . And you could as a kind of baseline say , " OK , given that we have both of these , we should be able to do , a cancellation . " So that , we we , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: that 's not a practical thing , if you have a distant mike , you don't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . , but And then there are s , there are single microphone methods that I think people have done for , for this kind of de - reverberation . Do y do you know any references to any ? Cuz I I w I was w w I I lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: I g I guess I guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: But . phd b: well , not not very Well , there is the Avendano work , professor c: Right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the not in the time domain but in the the stream of features I guess . Well , @ @ there there 's someone working on this on i in Mons professor c: Yeah , OK . phd b: So perhaps , yeah , we should try t to He 's working on this , on trying to professor c: Yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , professor c: The first paper on this is gonna have great references , I can tell already . professor c: It 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll " You 're OK , you 've r You cited me . Well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . professor c: The oth the other thing , that Dave was talking about earlier was , multiple mike things , where they 're all distant . So , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . It 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: professor c: So that Yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . It 's basically , phd a: That 's what the head 's for ? To separate the ears ? professor c: Yeah , it 's to separate the ears . professor c: Yeah ? phd a: I think th that may be due to the fact that Adam ran out of digits , and didn't have time to regenerate any . professor c: Oh ! Oh ! I guess it 's Well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: Yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , professor c: is there ? grad e: Oh , no ? professor c: Or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: yeah , I do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? Oh , OK

The team encountered an issue with the recordings due to reverberations caused by the air conditioner, which the professor identified as a major component in one of the waves. They realized the need to be more aware of these reverberations and their interference with the recordings. To gain a better understanding of the problem, the team considered examining spectral slices. Additionally, the team discussed the possibility of using sonorance detection as a low-level feature in their models. They found that low-level detectors focusing on specific sonorance features were more reliable than typical full-band Gaussian mixtures.

Summarize the discussion on patterns of noise and dealing with smaller features in the recordings.

So basically I'm just gonna go over real quickly some news I've just got from the board on how we're supposed to do with this remote control . And then I'm gonna turn over to you guys to make brief presentations on what you've found and then we'll have a bit of discussion . So basically what I've just found out from the board I dunno if you guys got this email as well but it needs to be television only . So no we're not doing D_V_D_ , we're not doing anything else , marketing: Okay . And it has to have the slogan , case you guys forget the slogan it's , we put fashion in electronics . I'm not sure what teletext is but I'm assuming you guys do , so we don't wanna include that in this particular design . So basically given those guidelines which will have some effect on how we design we'll discuss it later 'cause it's television only we'll be able to change our well we can s sacrifice more function for a better television remote . So I'm gonna turn over to the Industrial Designer to go ahead and make a presentation on industrial designer: Okay . sends message to another system , so there's an energy source involved in that like a battery or solar power , something along those lines , there's an integrated circuit , which is the microchip , and that actually compose the messages and usually the way a a remote control works is it sends infrared bits to another system . A user interface controls the chip , basically that's the casing and the buttons and accordingly the messages as well . So my findings , I just did a preliminary study here and I found that too much metal in remote design could potentially cause interference with the ability of the remote to send commands . too much metal is used sometimes and people pick up radio signals and the like , and there's also the possibility of the remote catching on fire and injuring the customer , just think of those lawsuits , that'd be really bad . Just some ideas that I had , energy source , it's kinda hip to be eco friendly so I thought maybe we could do something with solar power with an alkaline battery backup . the user interface , I was since we can't use metal I was thinking maybe a high grade recycled plastic . industrial designer: The chip , silicon based chip I don't really see any way around that , we can't really be different in that respect . , the sender well I'm thinking infrared 'cause it is the industry standard , multi channel , that's a word I made up , I don't really know what it means . marketing: industrial designer: PAL and N_T_S_C_ compatible and probably a two hundred foot range . personal preferences , I really think that we should use plastic as opposed to metal , the company simply can't afford this kinds of lawsuits marketing: Fine . industrial designer: which adm admittedly is gonna come at the cost of a certain aesthetic value , project manager: Is is there a way that we can use modern types of polymers , or mo modern types of plastics industrial designer: 'cause we were thinking project manager: that maybe do have some kind of aesthetic value like if a white like if we talk about like well like on the lapt on these laptops and other ones they use a a pretty nice , industrial designer: Right . project manager: you can do i is there some kind of nice colo der quality plastic that we can work with ? industrial designer: Yeah that shouldn't be a problem . for example the plastic they have on your laptop there is something that's perfectly possible for us to do . if next we can have the User Interface Developer go ahead and make a brief presentation that'd be great as well . we n basically need to operate an electronic device , it needs to be universal and possibly operate several different types of devices although we now find that that that's no problem . that would be any number of different things such as switch on the television , switch to the next channel , that sort of thing , I think we're all quite quite intelligent and know know what a normal remote control does . now some of the other things I found is a a complicated remote control sorry that we can't quite see my red there very well project manager: Oh yeah look at that . user interface: but this remote control has many functions so it can do a lot of things but it it is quite complicated project manager: user interface: and most users will find it find that they won't use most of the functions because they don't know how to use them and don't wanna take the time to learn how to do it . Another remote control , slightly different , it's a simpler remote control many less buttons but has many fewer functions , m much easier for the user to manipulate and use . so attain the functionality of a complicated device but use a simple formatted display for the user to to work with . project manager: 'Kay marketing: Does that mean I'm up ? project manager: yep that's you . basically I was looking through some marketing reports that we've got and we had a usability test where we were actually sort like watching a hundred people use T_V_ remotes and see what it is that they're using and then they filled out a questionnaire about what they like and what they don't about their general T_V_ remote control practices . pretty much through testing we were finding out that most of the time , everybody's used to using changing the channel , turning it on , using the volume , m the majority of the time that's all that's going on , the other functions happen , for some people they're important , but the primary uses are really really basic . and so big complicated remotes like one we saw in the last presentation are really not the general public's use , they're not using a lot of it , they don't need it , they even find it frustrating when there are all those buttons that they don't know what to do with . And we also found out that fifty percent of our people , their the worst thing about a remote is how often they lose it . So I think what we were talking about with a pager or something , will really come into play with a lot of these people . there's also a survey about what they liked about remotes , industrial designer: marketing: and pretty much they all think they're hideous and not very useful , and the younger demographics are all really interested in voice recognition options . I don't know if that's something we're ready to look into technically , that's up to the design people , but it is s something worth thinking about , especially since the younger demographic's obviously the one that's gonna keep growing , so if that's the direction we're headed in it's something to think about . So marketing: Need to unplug this ? project manager: yep I'll just switch that back here . project manager: I'll finish up with just a bit of discussion plan on for the next phase . project manager: Right so I think we've covered most of these important questions through this through you guys's presentations we've got y the Industrial Designer suggests or pretty much emphatically suggested that we need to go with plastic . Sarah , she's recommended that we go for simpler functions , so fewer functions but we need to decide who are we selling this to , you s your stats suggested that seventy five percent of people under thirty five wanted , thought about voice control , marketing: Oh right . project manager: so do we wanna go for that , or do we want to go for an older demographic , and my thought is we've got w if we're gonna go for a sleek look we are putting the fashion in electronics . marketing: We're not catering to the pensioners of the world I don't think so . project manager: we need to wonder ah h about how we make it better and smaller and faster think we're constrained to plastics very well , we've got this idea , Ron was saying we need to think about revolutionising the way it's looking , marketing: Right . project manager: which might be easier given that we're going for simpler function and that we're only going for a telly . How th this voice operation thing is I think is a good idea assuming that it's doable , at least for the basic controls , maybe we can balance it that way , you know we can see . project manager: Okay you can't say record alias tonight at seven P_M_ industrial designer: project manager: but we might be able to say volume up . marketing: Is that only gonna be within our two hundred foot range then ? industrial designer: Oh yeah I think that's very doable . project manager: The difficulty wh would be in I think like i you couldn't speak into the remote that you're trying to find . project manager: If it's hidden under the couch but then again you have this wee this wee thing you know that's just a little chip or whatever that has the page button , maybe that could be voice activated too . user interface: finds your marketing: K project manager: Or an isolated magnet or something like , or you know something that wouldn't interfere I don't know that'd be the technical thing marketing: Yeah . project manager: but yeah I like that , I like that , the voice recognition for the paging system . user interface: The other thing is we might be able to handle the simplicity of a remote control and kind of put the more complicated things into a voice control . user interface: And the younger market could use kind of the voi voice control method and the older market might might k marketing: Making it just an option ? industrial designer: . user interface: exactly and might consider the older market could use the simpler design with the traditional buttons and what not . The if we're gonna do this touch pad screen thing , it would be still , do we know if that's an option technically right now to that ? project manager: marketing: 'Cause it seems like an interesting option especially because then you could have like your primary screen just be these you know four or five basic functions , you can have project manager: . marketing: menu options or something to have all these other complicated voice recognition , settings , things that you're not gonna use every day and that a lot of people aren't gonna use but it is an option there for this hi-tech market that sort of re is the sleek thing we're going for . industrial designer: Gotta wonder though , if we're adding so much technology to this one remote , are we still gonna be able to meet out twelve pou our twelve fifty Euro you know goal for selling these things . user interface: industrial designer: It seems like , we're not gonna be able to handle all these functions with just one microchip . 'kay well yeah I guess we'll cross that bridge in a la slightly later stages of development but yeah I know , that's perfectly viable question . 'kay so I'm seeing that we're gonna just basically focus on this young demographic group , aim it at them , but then in a sense that its bells and whistles are available for anybody who wants them but basically we'll make a sleek simple functioned remote control . project manager: I think this voice recognition thing is a we've got a market for it I don't think there's too many , marketing: . project manager: we'd more or less be cornering the market on it as well , we don't have many . Right we don't have many people or there's not very many competitors out there that do that so cool . The thing with I see would there not be a we'd have to maybe sacrifice the face plates for a touch screen ? user interface: I'm not sure that's sincerely correct , project manager: Okay . user interface: I think if you kind of take the example of a mobile phone that trying to pass a portion of the device is not interchangeable whereas the surrounding portions are interchangeable . We have to ask whether we're going to include a certain number of face plates with the package ? That's something I w for say we're including three or four face plates , it's gonna drive the cost up . industrial designer: And the other question is , if we do include them are we really in a position to evaluate that market ? marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: Off the top of my head it sounds kind of like a gimmick that wouldn't really go anywhere . project manager: it's not like with cell phones like where you have a you know Nokia model X_ and then ten people make face plates for it , we'd be just our model of pho of t remote control . marketing: Well in the publicity of a face plate on a phone is you have it out and around , it is sort of emblematic whereas you're just sit at home , project manager: user interface: Well hopefully some people have people coming t over to w to hang out at your house project manager: industrial designer: marketing: True . project manager: Alright well we can we can discuss that one further when we think about whether th when we do costs and so forth , . project manager: True , if plastic is dead cheap and if we're making the whole thing out of plastic anyway yeah we'll cross that bridge later but yeah we will have to evaluate what's most important . I think we've had a bit of discussion already on this thing , n s there any other questions comments that came up in these presentations ? user interface: Well have we confirmed that we're gonna go ahead with a touch screen project manager: Yeah yeah okay . Let's based on what sh on what you guys have all said to me let's go for a plastic built or b plastic cased 'cause tha tha that's easy on the cost , try to look for some kind of high quality recycled plastic as you recommended and I think that's a great idea . And we'll yeah tha let's provisionally let's go for a touch screen one with several submenus for possible extra stuff that one basically put the channel and the on and off switch on the touch screen . do we have wait a minute it occurs to me that if we have a touch screen people are going to have to recharge their remote controls . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: So these new lithium batteries they last twenty years even with the touch screen ? project manager: Do they ? Okay . industrial designer: Can we afford to include one of those ? marketing: Can we afford that ? user interface: marketing: And will somebody buy it if we don't ? industrial designer: project manager: Well I I don't think yeah I can't see anybody buying a lap a remote control that they have to plug in so we'd have to see some kind of new battery technology . project manager: Okay so let's go with a touch screen with some kind of you know with with some kind of cutting edge battery technology marketing: For twelve Euros ? user interface: project manager: Yeah well hey you know well it's it's worth looking into , if not we can always default to just doing a a well presented plastic simple marketing: It is . project manager: you can put the we could I I dunno I suppose we could put the the basics on the centre easiest you know , you know people know the channel and volume function make them large and easy to get at and then the the other the other bits and bobs you know go through menu w we'll do the aesthetics . project manager: it's th with this voice recognition option as well just as for the simple functions the the on off , channels , volume , industrial designer: Right . Even if you can't do voice recognition for the paging you know just some kind of simple button that's just a I guess another infrared signal to the remote control and while to emit some kind of paging . project manager: right so any comments ? Thoughts before we break into go into the next round of individual work on this . industrial designer: Since we're doing touch screen , do we wanna look into the possibility of people being able to input different types of skins for the you know the actual interface part of it and things like that ? Or is it just gonna be one touch screen for everybody . industrial designer: What what would be on that touch screen ? 'Cause you said earlier that we have to think about company colours and marketing: And oh . project manager: W it's my understanding that if you were going to do a skin you'd need to have some way for people to download or import skins into the remote control . marketing: Right , and then you're dealing with ports and cords and project manager: Yeah I think perhaps industrial designer: 'S too much . project manager: I think that that one m might just be and they just yeah I think that one might just be out of the range for this particular marketing: For now . project manager: a P_D_A_ would they would makes a lot of sense for a P_D_A_ 'cause you're gonna be using it to connect up to things anyway but I dunno , what do you guys think ? industrial designer: Think we just need to come up with a nice black and red interface on the touch screen . I I'm I'm in agreement with that , I'm wondering how we're gonna get we put fashion into electronics onto this device . Well but if we're gonna use a touch screen where it's gonna come on like on your cell phone it'll have your your carrier provider name come up first like while it's loading project manager: . marketing: Comes on every time you turn it on and then that's it 'cause it is a bit much to have it like engraved on the back or something I think . user interface: I'm hoping for a subliminal maybe half a millisecond as it turns on . Yeah I know I d it seems like it would suffice to have just the R_R_ on there . industrial designer: People aren't gonna want their remote to boot up and to see flashing things come on . and yeah that would help the battery life too and if it the remote they do have to press a button for the remote to turn on . Kind of if i user interface: Well all you have to do is touch the screen and it automatically goes on . Oh yeah I like that I like the idea of putting the logo in the boot up screen , nice . marketing: We're good ? project manager: I'm gonna save th a copy of this in case you guys need any reminders . I'm gonna save a copy of this and the minutes that I'll do it in a second and put them in the shared folder for later reference <doc-sep>Right so this meeting will be about the conceptual design , don't ask me s precisely what conceptual design is , it's just something important that we need to do . In this meeting ideally we'll come to some final decisions on what we're gonna do for the prototype . Right so , apologies for the last meeting , it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clear enough , so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting . So , basically all we're gonna do is have some presentations again much like last time , and gonna go through you , whoever wants to go first is f fine by me and we'll collate what we know about what we discussed in the last meeting , possible directions . And then we'll make some more decisions on basic firm up our idea on how we want this remote control to look and work . It is Nathan right ? I'm not calling you the wrong name over and over again ? industrial designer: No Nathan's fine . industrial designer: basically what I'm gonna have to talk to you about today is component design and it's been brought to my attention that we may be somewhat limited as to what we can do because of what our manufacturer offers , project manager: . We've already kind of gone over this but we're gonna have to get into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon . Our manufacturer didn't say anything about lithium so we might have to look if we do go that route , we might have to look elsewhere . Basically , it's like a the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running . So that's one possibility but I don't know whether that would be powerful enough to illuminate a touch screen . and then as far as the way it's shaped , we can do standard boring flat , which we probably don't wanna do , curved or very sexy double curved . project manager: What kind of th thickness are we looking at ? industrial designer: I imagine that we could specify . industrial designer: the buttons , there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer , but to use those we'd have to use more chips , and that would cost us more . And if we do go with the rubber doubled curved case we'll have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons aren't compatible with that . industrial designer: one thing that I noticed was that most remotes operate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum . So you notice when you push a button on a remote you can't see anything coming out of it but in fact there is light coming out of the remote and you know the television can detect that . And if you were to record if you were to make a video recording you could actually see the light . one thing that I thought might be interesting was to use part use visible light coming out of the remote , just kind of as a fun gimmick . industrial designer: Course it'd have to be a part of the spectrum that wouldn't damage the human eye or anything like that . project manager: is there an option that we can have that off or on so a person can select like industrial designer: Yeah . , and then on to the circuit board that we're gonna use , also known as the chip . , we really don't have any way around the T_A_ one one eight three five . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: findings , okay , we're very limited by what our current manufacturers can offer , and my question to all of you is , should we look to other manufacturies or should we just make do with what we have available ? user interface: Interesting question . marketing: Well I'd say shop around but with our time constraints , is that really a feasible option ? project manager: . , if we do go the lithium battery route then we'll have to go outside our current manufacturer . My personal preference is I'll just throw my cards on the table , I think we should probably go the solar battery route , just to kinda keep with the environmentally friendly theme that we have going on . , I like the idea of the visible light signalling , that's something to set us apart and I was thinking about I was thinking of ways that we could produce the remote in a variety of different case materials to suit different tastes . So we're not so confined by one style and say some you know , say our the one marketing: Right . industrial designer: if we just go with one and it doesn't go over well then we're in a bad situation . project manager: Can we do marketing piloting too ? Try to see what kind before we launch can we see how they're received ? marketing: It's an option , but actually there's I've got some research already on like what we're looking at and trends in casing right now project manager: Okay . project manager: That's perfect , so I guess that makes sense for you to take it from here . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: Did you ? marketing: You waiting for me ? project manager: Fascinating , compelling even . , basically I was looking at what's going on in the remote control market right now and what's going on in other design fields , to see sort of what's what's trendy , what's new , what's happening . , remote control right now basically everybody says they want newer , fancier , more exciting they're sick of this boring , normal , functional , that we need innovative design options and there needs to be an easy user interface . the challenge is that current trends right now , across the board in fashion , in furniture , in technology , is a very organic fruit and vegetable kind of thing . user interface: project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: Now I'm not saying we should have , you know , tomato shaped remote controls or anything , but I think it is possible maybe to use natural colours , like if wood is an option , that whole organic , sleek , clean , industrial designer: . Different skin options , or if we can't afford this touch plate thing , or touch face screen interface , maybe having the b images be specific , like you could choose your menu bullets to be project manager: Tomatoes . marketing: a different shape industrial designer: user interface: marketing: or okay , not the example I would choose , but you know what to t sort of and th apparently the feel of the next couple of years is spongy , project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: not something I I've come up with a though if we can get around to getting piloting , I thought maybe a casing option like not like a skin , but like a holder almost if you could do like , leather options or wood options or something industrial designer: . As far as the rubber that we can use we can use a rubber as part of the case , marketing: So overall I think we should stick with what we're finding , everyone's looking for easy to use , technologically innovative and this fancy new I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way to go for right now . Well I d but then if the touch screen thing isn't gonna work out for us that's really a non-issue . industrial designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it's tends to be associated with being durable , something that you can drop and it doesn't matter . project manager: Yeah , it's like , yep industrial designer: Taped with duck tape and what have you , marketing: Very much so . project manager: it's ubiquitous isn't it ? user interface: We can have a duck tape casing . user interface: marketing: I think that goes against the whole fancy something , a new line , project manager: user interface: It could go with the granola crowd . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: Ah , it could be , it could be , project manager: Great , marketing: . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: So yur user interface , guys , is basically aspects of a computer system that we can see or hear , or otherwise perceive . Here's a d series of different remote controls industrial designer: user interface: that are out on the market today . voice recognition , we we actually have some new information from our research design team but I'll get to that in a moment . , so current voice recognition starts up to about eighty speech samples , and basically you record your own verbal labels c and connect them to the remote control . Now our design team , research team , has been able to set up a system in which you can teach the remote control voice c recognition system to respond to with standard responses . Like you could say good morning remote control and it'll say in a sexy female voice , Good morning Joe . project manager: marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: In fact we already have this for a coffee maker line marketing: . project manager: Lot of single people on the on the re on the remote control research team user interface: On the remote control industrial designer: project manager: at the user interface: right . user interface: another concept is what Apple has come up with , the spinning wheel with L_C_ display like on the iPod project manager: . user interface: and then we have the scroll button with integrated push-button , kind of like a modern a bit bulky , a bit crazy , project manager: . user interface: And some special components , ideas like blocking , having the ability to block channels from your for your children and dedicated buttons for for commonly used channels and even ideas like secured or hidden programming but I again if we go with touch screen I don't think that's a big issue . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: the jumbo universal remote control is almost impossible to misplace or lose . user interface: again probably not what we're going for marketing: user interface: so I my ideas here and kind of where I think we're heading is something slightly larger than a regular iPod with a hard cla c plastic casing marketing: Okay . user interface: although I think some of the suggestions we've come up with are definitely very good ideas . changeable casings our design team was possibly talking about including one extra face plate with the package to kind of set the idea that you can change it and you can try changing it marketing: right . user interface: and kind of get used to thinking about maybe buying another one which can add value to our bottom line . touch screen interface , possibly having go-to buttons being stuck into the system so those don't move away from the screen , the important ones like power , volume and jump between channels . , and of course our voice command system which I've talked a little bit about already project manager: . user interface: and the use of recognisable colours and shapes to aid recognition of the features that are around so red for power , arrows for different volume ups and downs and channels ups and downs and what not . user interface: And perhaps even adding in some stupid little jokes with the voice recognition idea like perh for instance my toastie maker that I got from my bank marketing: user interface: has jokes when it's ready . project manager: That's what they need , it's like a little dongle it just sticks up this further so you don't have to stand up every time , just connect it , my kingdom . Now we kind of have to come to some decisions , I figure we can just go down the line and all three of us can have a chat about it . Based on what Nathan presented as far as the various costs and benefits I think , I dunno , what do you guys think about the touch screen at this point ? marketing: I think it's our most marketable feature just because it's so new and it's something that is showing up in other places . marketing: But can we really afford it 'cause it looks like they would be , that would be a really main cost source then project manager: marketing: right ? industrial designer: My estimate is that in order to incorporate touch screen technology it's gonna cost us upwards of seventeen fifty Euro per remote , project manager: To produce each one . marketing: And our goal was to be under twelve fifty or we have to be under twelve fifty ? project manager: Well . project manager: There is , it's just , it is a question of and how much ca o does that mean we're gonna have to increase the price to make money . marketing: Can we justify it ? project manager: from twelve fifty if we d wanna get our fift hundred per cent profit margin that would mean selling it from twenty five . project manager: So user interface: Where do you guys come up with these numbers ? industrial designer: That's just off the top of my head , project manager: From the board , industrial designer: it is pending further emails . project manager: well marketing: Though I think that's what people would pay for , user interface: marketing: if you're gonna pay for an expensive high class remote , you're gonna expect it to do something project manager: That's true , industrial designer: It is the new it would be in a class of its own . project manager: And that's to be fair the the per cent of the market we're not going for mass any you know , mass sales anyway , we're gonna make we we're not talking about selling eight zillion of these things , we just couldn't , not for twenty-five Euros , marketing: Right . project manager: so we could probably maybe shrink the profit margins rather than selling for twenty five , sell 'em for thirty , but that's something that we can have finance deal with . project manager: or wh y wh what was your thought on the matter Ron ? user interface: I'm thinking that's definitely a good idea and I also think that we could probably come up with some sort of a cheaper means to to go about this kind of production , my my team in the on the third floor suggested that marketing: See if we can cut some corners . Well and we can look into this other manufacturing option , and maybe we can get 'em somewhere else cheaper . industrial designer: We could initially go with what we have and if we can find them cheaper later on marketing: Right . project manager: No we could have a s very simple touch screen , you know , there's always the opportunity , if it's gonna be about the size of the iPod or whatever , you know , w we yeah , I guess we can play around with it a bit . Alright , let's let's say that okay so the touch screen will be our our main selling point here . project manager: So user interface: I think that we really have two main selling points , I think that our casing and the voice recognition marketing: Yeah 'cause with voice recognition really this is pretty bells and whistles kinda remote . project manager: if if we're looking at bottom line , now we're looking at upping the cost to seventeen to get the touch screen on , user interface: project manager: I think we might have to drop the voice rec . user interface: To be honest , we have the capa we have the design in-house , marketing: Price-wise . user interface: we've we've come up with this , with this new voice marketing: True . What do you think on it Nathan ? About the voice rec ? industrial designer: I think if we we do both the obviously production costs are going to go way up but it does put it into it'd become the Rolls Royce of remote controls basically . Course , maybe they hadn't thought of this whole touch screen option , but definitely we know the market is there for voice recognition so to say we have the technology and we're not gonna use it even though we know it'll sell is a call I don't think I can give the highs ups . marketing: Like really I can't go in and say no we're gonna just ignore everything we know . user interface: Does having both really up our costs ? project manager: I can't see how it wouldn't , there's you know the old aphorism , you can have it fast , you can have it cheap or you can have it quality , pick two of three . industrial designer: Yeah , 'cause you you just upping the number of chips that you need to deal with each different function . project manager: Well if we're gonna pick betwe e alright so we have to pick between one of the two . What which , which do we suspect we should hold o we should hold on to ? marketing: Well , we already have research backing voice recognition as you know fiscally solvent . But I I I personally would tend to another direction but if that's what's gonna sell I think that's what we need to go with and maybe we can table this touch screen for our next model . industrial designer: I think the voice recognition is simpler , we already have the all the technology in-house , it's ready to go , it's packaged , it's project manager: What does the cost look like Ron ? Is it cheaper to do the V_R_ or to do the touch screen ? user interface: Well my p is project manager: Nathan ? marketing: . industrial designer: this is just off the top of my head keep in mind , but I think the voice recognition would they're both they're both gonna push the costs up , but , since we already have the technology in-house for the voice recognition project manager: . marketing: And we're still not then we don't have to deal with this battery issue nearly as much either , project manager: . So I'm getting alright so more or less you guys think that o o of the two of 'em , the voice recognition will be better . marketing: which for right now we can have it on the market sooner which is all in all our best option . industrial designer: marketing: So and when are we gonna have basic prototypes coming up next that's you guys's next step right ? project manager: Yeah , well we'll we'll sic we'll sort out what it what f what else we're gonna talk about for the prototype industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: but yeah that's our next step , it'll be a developing of prototype . industrial designer: Are we going to talk now about the materials that we're gonna use for the case and all those things ? project manager: Yes . Would the solar power be enough to fuel a voice recognition ? Or this kinesthetic one , would that be enough to fuel a voice recognition remote control ? industrial designer: the solar power definitely would be but I think just to keep people from getting annoyed , 'cause sometimes solar power fails and there's no way round that , we should install a small backup battery . industrial designer: Just to cover those moments when for whatever reason , the remote hasn't been exposed to marketing: Well what of people with like the T_V_ in their basement , project manager: . marketing: like what if wha we can't guarantee sunlight everywhere so having a secondary source is probably industrial designer: It's true . Yeah , it works about the same as a solar powered calculator , marketing: industrial designer: and you know how those those don't really require that much light , user interface: Calculator . industrial designer: but obviously a little more light than a calculator , but we're not talking about a lot of light . Doesn't have to be out taking a sunbath for a few hours a day or anything . project manager: What do you think Ron ? user interface: I'm willing to agree with everything that's been said . If we're really not handling the remote control to a great extent we could possibly get away from the idea of having a hand-held remote control and maybe kind of have a round remote control that kind of looks like a paperweight or something like that , kind of a sleek little neat thing that sits on your table or something . industrial designer: Why , why moving away from hand-held , why ? user interface: Just a thought . industrial designer: What's the idea ? user interface: Well if you don't need to pick it up it could kind of be a selling point . marketing: I if it's got voice recognition it can be technically anywhere in your room and still do its job . Do you think people that are people that buy a remote , are they always gonna wanna use the voice recognition or is it just something that they do sometimes . marketing: True , and i probabl I think we're banking on selling it to more than just voice recognition people , like we want it to work fundamentally as a basic manual too , project manager: Well we have to have buttons on it too as well . project manager: But that's done , that's no bother if you look at the catalogue from places like with sharper image or whatever you know they might have or like who is it , Apple makes these really pretentious speakers with the th sub-woofers you know like clear and glass and you know marketing: project manager: And maybe a menu button and so forth , you know use a channel button to scroll through the menu d if they want to record programmes or whatever you know we can sort that out . Maybe something that looks nice on a table is would be good , even though and hand-held the same time . user interface: I think it's all about following Apple's lead on a lot of these things . project manager: Yeah , a nice although we do wh is I'm recalling that she mentioned that we n need to get away from the surgical white kind of brushed aluminium thing marketing: Right . project manager: but you could have a very tasteful wood coloured or earth tone kind of marketing: That would be kinda neat . And the the material like the plastics and so forth , we were discussing that being using like a rubber kind of softer feel , industrial designer: Okay . project manager: li lik if you feel the the tip on this pen it's a bit gives just a bit . project manager: something where it's a a more advanced f form of plastic that has some kind of a tactile response to it . marketing: Yeah , which is the next big thing , so that's not gonna hurt us either . user interface: project manager: Yeah let's see if we can do a squishy non-remote control-looking remote control . industrial designer: project manager: But to be fair , yeah , you just c you could just put it literally put it on the the ni the coffee table next to the telly and say volume up . I guess we'll a that's gonna be a thing , if we run a bit over-budget , that might be okay , . industrial designer: Sorry about the lack of information on cost , I just haven't been provided that information by our manufacturers marketing: Okay . project manager: We'll have more of an idea when the prototype have more of a industrial designer: and I'm just having to guess . , so user interface: project manager: we've revisited the touch screen and more or less ruled that out , I think so we're more or less con we wh wh we're more or less in agreement that we want to have a a simple kind of function , you know , not too complex . Well when the majority of people are only using the most primary functions on a daily basis , although I'm not saying we should completely rule out major functions , they should be secondary , at least if not functionally then visually , like those shouldn't be industrial designer: Right . marketing: Take precedence , industrial designer: If , if we're not going the touch-screen route then we can just incorporate maybe something that folds out marketing: yeah . industrial designer: like what you often see on these kinds of remotes is the most basic functions up here project manager: . marketing: Well and do we wanna consider like an iPod screen which isn't a touch screen but you're still scrolling through menu options , in p user interface: Think then we're hitting our cost issue again . project manager: Yeah marketing: True , project manager: we've also got the the me the thing of , industrial designer: Yeah . project manager: if we're gonna have a non-remote-looking remote , how do we yeah . project manager: we could do a slide or a compartment , you know , like if it say it's a lit little vaguely ovoidal type of thing , it'd be easy to have a compartment in there . project manager: Or you know , a b a b a a series of you know three or four buttons with a menu button and then a side an s up and down type of thing , like on like on a D_V_D_ player . You know you see the modern D_V_D_ players'll just have a menu button on the side and then four buttons around them marketing: industrial designer: So are we gonna are we talking we need to figure out what kind of buttons we're going to use , are we going to use scroll buttons ? Rubber buttons ? project manager: Well it seems like I dunno it seems to me that we could just do the stick with the rubber 'cause since we're probably gonna be using some kind of rubber for the outside case marketing: Yeah . user interface: I think to a certain extent we have to stick with kind of a little bit traditional in terms of the buttons and then and then make our unique feature our casing and what not and our voice command . Well no it's basic just like four directions that are that can use as menu or channel and volume or however you wanna do it , are really versatile and everybody's already got them to some extent on the remotes they already own so it's not like we're dealing with everybody relearning things 'cause that's not something anybody's gonna wanna buy a new for . That seems to be selling and we we've more or less agreed that we want to kar target this youth market , . project manager: Especially now with eighteen to thirty five year olds being such a large quantity of the population . Yeah alright , well , more or less covered what we need to cover I think fi an an any final thoughts before we think about doing the protot moving on to the prototype . project manager: The , yeah okay I was just gonna assign tasks in the next b anyth any oth user interface: Sure . industrial designer: have we decided that we are gonna go with different style cases for different people ? project manager: . industrial designer: Or are we just going to go with one ? ..It's very , it's very hard thing to predict because you have different cases marketing: Yeah . industrial designer: and that might open up your market a little bit obviously , but if you have just one case and it doesn't go very well . industrial designer: but obviously having more cases also costs more so project manager: Well then again colours wouldn't be so hard to do , you could have a , you know , a kind of a natural wood colour , like a stained wood and , I don't know , olive green or something . project manager: That wouldn't be so much of a problem to incorporate into the colour of the thing . user interface: And again copying iMac's kind of for iPod Mac Apple's colour scheme . project manager: Yeah , I think that's probably a good id okay so let's work on multiple case colours . But yeah , stick with the same kind of kinda yeah , the same basic non-remote kind of remote design . I want the I'd like Nathan , I'd like you to work on just the basic look and feel , what can we accomplish , given these parameters that we're just gonna sort of have this kind of non-remote remote . project manager: And Ron if you can figure out how probably best to lay out this idea of this simple design with the voice recognition built in and also this kind of drop down or s on the side kind of menu options simple . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: And also specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches as well . project manager: So that's what to start with for now , is that alright , you guys feel clear about this ? marketing: Cool

The group members, excluding the Project Manager, each presented their research findings on the television remote. The Industrial Designer advised against using excessive metal to avoid signal interference. The User Interface specialist focused on proposing functions that strike a balance between simplicity and a high-quality appearance. The Marketing representative discussed consumer preferences and the common issue of losing remotes. The Industrial Designer suggested exploring alternative manufacturers for more energy source and material options. The Marketing team emphasized the importance of a user-friendly interface, while the User Interface specialist proposed incorporating a voice recognition system for improved user communication. Additionally, suggestions were made for spinning wheels on the iPod and enhanced programming.

Summarize the personal ideas presented on the design.